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Etain
Jan 31st 2008, 07:56 PM
Hello, I'm Etain. I'm doing a project for a psychology class about the relationship between lesbianism and faith. I welcome all opinions, but might play devil's advocate (I am truly undecided about the issue). Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Athanasius
Jan 31st 2008, 08:04 PM
It's condemned along with every other form of sin?
It's no worse a sin than any of the others?
It's our attitude towards sin that is the difference?

Ergo, you can be a 'Lesbian Christian' in the sense that you know lesbianism is wrong and are working to get out of the life style.
Doesn't mean, however, that you can't be a person of faith.

VerticalReality
Jan 31st 2008, 08:48 PM
I don't like labeling folks as "lesbian" or "homosexual". Those labels make it seem as if homosexuality is unavoidable and is a part of someone's nature rather than just a sinful choice born out of carnal and perverted desire. Homosexuality is an adjective that describes a sinful action . . . not a noun. Homosexuality is a sinful choice that folks make. It's not something they are born with that cannot be changed.

grit
Jan 31st 2008, 09:48 PM
Hello, I'm Etain. I'm doing a project for a psychology class about the relationship between lesbianism and faith. I welcome all opinions, but might play devil's advocate (I am truly undecided about the issue). Any thoughts?

Thanks.
Welcome to the CMB, Etain. It's an unsual 1st post, I'll give you that, but it is indeed rather relevant in terms of both Christian apologetics and evangelism.

Let me preface my response by first admiting that sexual practice and orientation are very personal, controversial, and sensitive issues, and even more so as aspects of religious belief, Christian faith, Scriptural directives, and ones relationship with God, society, and a sexual partner are considered.

Let me also point out that many of us are quite familiar on a very personal level with family members, friends, and/or fellow congregants who have waged a very heart-felt struggle with these issues. We know and love people for whom this is a very important concern and personal battle, regardless of how one views God's will and human faith as they bear on these issues.

Having said that, let me affirm that love is of God, for God is love (1 John 4:7-8); and also affirm that sexual practice as an element of the human condition would seem constrained by God to our current human condition - that is, such relationships will not continue beyond our present life here (Luke 20:34-36). Some Christians throughout Christian history have even applied these constraints to here and now (insomuch as Jesus' demarks, "...those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage..." (v. 35, NASB). That is, there are Christians who would assert that any sexual practice is either unworthy or lesser of an obedience to a 'spiritual' following of the kingdom of Christ and eternal holiness. Equally, and especially among Jewish believers, abstaining from marriage and an interrelated fruitful multiplying (Ge. 1:28) is a slap in the face of God's initial commands for Adam and Eve and the human race which followed. So there are Bible believing Christians who take directly opposite views on the practice of sexual activity within God's design of marriage.

I bring this to address homosexual activity in that such a willful bent in contrary to both of these diverse views on Scriptural teaching, and everything in between. What the Scriptures are very clear about in both the Old and New Testaments, despite modern efforts to allocate such concerns to some ancient and out-of-date cultural directives inapplicable to modern sexual practice, is that both homosexual activity and inclination are a sin before God (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:27; 1Cor. 6:9), and especially affecting ones own body (that is, a sin against ones own body - cf. 1Cor. 6:17-20).

Sin is sin, as Xel'Naga has indicated, and sin brings death. It is an abhorrent rebellion, in every form it takes, against a holy God who neither sanctions any part of it nor will allow it to stand unpunished and without divine abrogation. When it comes to the particular sin of homosexuality there are some disturbing qualifiers difficult for any Christian to sort through. What makes someone male or female? How is such to be determined? What of God's dear creatures subject to a self-induced fallen and sin-stained world where imperfections sometimes make determinations and societal incorporations of gender a very difficult issue?

Suffice it to say, homosexuality is a sin, but Scriptural determinations of such are not always as clear as we might hope. In any case, Xel'Naga is again correct, in that one's Christian faith and the directives of Holy Writ, while bearing on the issue of Lesbianism, are not so tied to it as to exclude the sinner from a hope in Christ of redemption.

JesusisGod
Jan 31st 2008, 09:48 PM
Lesbian sex is sin and God will judge all.

Etain
Jan 31st 2008, 10:18 PM
Thanks, everyone, for the responses.

For the sake of learning, I'm going to raise objections I have encountered in my debates with liberals. What I'm saying won't necessarily reflect what I believe. I just want to know what you would say to arguments I have had trouble with.

The Biblical sex laws come from a time when there was no protection from STDs. Back then, sex put you in mortal peril, such that it was off-limits except to people trying to reproduce (not reproducing was worse than STDs). Sex for any other purpose (e.g. pleasure) was foolhardy. But today, we know about STDs and how to contain them. Rather than uphold laws blindly, it is time for us as a society to ask God how we should behave sexually in light of new knowledge. Nothing is prohibited without a reason, right?

Part of me thinks my lesbian tendencies come from dysfunction in my upbringing. Yet not everyone who goes through far worse psychotrauma than mine becomes bisexual or homosexual. So I'm beginning to doubt that explanation and tending to accept my sexual orientation as a gift from God. A strange and frightening gift, but a gift nonetheless. I have asked Him repeatedly what I am to do with the gift. Am I to bring peace and understanding to a debate that is cutting obscene rifts between His children, who should be worrying about more dangerous things, like terrorism? Should I have a relationship with another woman and learn of His love by loving a human? Should I prove to the world that homosexuality can be overcome?

I have asked Him repeatedly. The answer I have received is more and more zeal to find the truth.

Teke
Jan 31st 2008, 11:07 PM
This subject has been looked at more in light of social influences toward it's development. Approach would entail studying the history of the culture and the influences which brought about such ideals.

If your an American, a study of feminism and it's development and influence on society would benefit your understanding, not only of homosexuality, but also the lapse in sexual morality in general.

A good book on the subject (in relation to American history on feminism) from a Christian source is "More Spirited Than Lions: An Orthodox Response to Feminism and a Practical Guide to the Spiritual Life for Women " by Sarah Cowie.
Plenty of references, historical and Christian, and she addresses the ten myths most believe about feminism. I recommend it to everyone. But it is not what one would call a "light" read.:)

Raindrops_On_Roses
Jan 31st 2008, 11:11 PM
I don't like labeling folks as "lesbian" or "homosexual". Those labels make it seem as if homosexuality is unavoidable and is a part of someone's nature rather than just a sinful choice born out of carnal and perverted desire. Homosexuality is an adjective that describes a sinful action . . . not a noun. Homosexuality is a sinful choice that folks make. It's not something they are born with that cannot be changed.

Although it is wrong, I believe that it can be natural. But as long as you find faith and God, he can help you steer away from the sin.
If homosexuality is natural in wild animals like cows and horses and such, then why couldn't it be natural in humans? Especially with all these chemicals that get pumped into our food that messed with our brain and hormones?
I believe when you get to heaven that there will be former gay people there.
Or I think even if you are gay and you've tried to change with the help of the lord but can't, you'll still be forgiven as long as you don't participate in any acts of homosexuality, like you stop yourself from thinking like that because you know it's wrong. Your still may be attracted to the same sex, but you just don't think about it and avoid doing anything with the same sex.

Athanasius
Jan 31st 2008, 11:22 PM
The Biblical sex laws come from a time when there was no protection from STDs. Back then, sex put you in mortal peril, such that it was off-limits except to people trying to reproduce (not reproducing was worse than STDs). Sex for any other purpose (e.g. pleasure) was foolhardy. But today, we know about STDs and how to contain them. Rather than uphold laws blindly, it is time for us as a society to ask God how we should behave sexually in light of new knowledge. Nothing is prohibited without a reason, right?
I would disagree with the crux of this statement. There is no protection against STD's, as the horrifying statistics have shown--STD rates are rising, and continually rising. I also disagree with the assumption that sex was off limits. Even in the Bible we have examples of blatant prostitution!

The reason this sort of sex, along with pre-marital sex, is condemned is because that's not how God created this act, which is to be between one man and woman.

The Biblical sex laws have absolutely nothing to do with STD's, just consider how many wives the men of the Bible had (Saul, remember, had over 800). The Bible makes it very clear why there are sex laws--that's the way God designed the world.

Genesis 2:24
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Mark 10:7
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife

1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh."

Ephesians 5:31
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

1 Corinthians 7:10
To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband

In regards to homosexuality specifically:

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality

Romans 1:24-27
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reasonGod gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.



Part of me thinks my lesbian tendencies come from dysfunction in my upbringing. Yet not everyone who goes through far worse psychotrauma than mine becomes bisexual or homosexual. So I'm beginning to doubt that explanation and tending to accept my sexual orientation as a gift from God. A strange and frightening gift, but a gift nonetheless. I have asked Him repeatedly what I am to do with the gift. Am I to bring peace and understanding to a debate that is cutting obscene rifts between His children, who should be worrying about more dangerous things, like terrorism? Should I have a relationship with another woman and learn of His love by loving a human? Should I prove to the world that homosexuality can be overcome?

I have asked Him repeatedly. The answer I have received is more and more zeal to find the truth.

Not everyone reacts to the same situations the same. We know that lesbianism isn't a gift from God, as God condemns that sort of relationship. All the same time realizing that sin is sin, and while homosexuality is stigmatized, it isn't worse than any other sin.



If homosexuality is natural in wild animals like cows and horses and such, then why couldn't it be natural in humans?

This is what's referred to as the naturalistic fallacy.
Monkey's throw poop--does that mean it's alright for you to do the same?

It isn't 'natural'; though that does come off with a rather negative connotation.



I believe when you get to heaven that there will be former gay people there.
Or I think even if you are gay and you've tried to change with the help of the lord but can't, you'll still be forgiven as long as you don't participate in any acts of homosexuality, like you stop yourself from thinking like that because you know it's wrong. Your still may be attracted to the same sex, but you just don't think about it and avoid doing anything with the same sex.

As I said, it's all in your attitude towards sin.


Immoral...now first of all, you have no ability to say that it is not caused by genes because remember, the human genome project was only completed a few months ago and I bet you cannot give a single function of any genes. Now, having said that, that is the least of our worries here...I want to know why the Bible states it to be immoral. Explain please..

Read my post above. It's immoral, it's sinful.
Many things are immoral and sinful. Homosexuality is not a gene.

Athanasius
Jan 31st 2008, 11:30 PM
Haha, oh man you guys make me laugh when you start quoting scripture. I asked for an explanation but still...it's just too much of a challenge isn't it? Oh and by the way, think about what you are saying little grasshopper...a psychopath ic condition which ends up in harm to anything else living is nothing like being homosexual. You're trying too hard, yet it's so simple to understand, so please don't take me to be some moron and think you've just pinned me by comparing the two simply because they are both a mental state. I can come out and say well you're christian and believe in Jesus as your saviour...what about the Hindus, Maryans, Aztecs, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Sikhs, Shintoists...the list goes on my friend. Oh and just out of curiosity, what do you think about them? Do you ever think that maybe you're wrong yourself?

Isaiah 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2008, 11:34 PM
I know 2 people that are no longer homosexual. One, from a very young age was attracted to women. She is now a missionary to Africa and is free from that lifestyle.

You know TS, you could post over in CA and get some answers. Why pretend to be a Christian when you are not? At least, I gather from your words you are not.

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2008, 11:44 PM
Hmm. Is it lulz time again?

My own personal opinion is that folks can be born with a tendency towards homosexuality. Science does mention that if one identical twin is gay, the the other is more likely to be gay even if raised separately.

You know, there are people on this board that were homosexual but are no longer. Oh, you can get your questions answered in christian answers as well.

Athanasius
Jan 31st 2008, 11:45 PM
ToeSnip, you never came here looking to be shown contrary to your own beliefs. By the way, you missed this. . .



However, I must at the same time also state that you aren't 'born' gay, nor are you predisposed to gay behavior through genes. Environment, personal relationships, events in early life, etc all contribute to the choices people make later on in life. In short, it isn't a simply 'mental condition', as you state.

You said yourself that you can't prove what you believe. Well, it goes something like this.

You don't believe in God because you feel there is no reason to believe in Him. Just as none of us believe in unicorns, spaghetti monsters or vampires. The same logic holds true for homosexuality. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest people are 'born' gay, so why should we believe they are? On the contrary, homosexuality is brought on through environment, as I stated.

And, in going with Brother Mark, I've personally seen people out of homosexuality.

But, you're the 'smart' guy, so I won't argue with you.

Raindrops_On_Roses
Jan 31st 2008, 11:47 PM
Brother Mark, it's rude to say that she's not a Christian!
Maybe she just has a different view! He/she (sorry I don't know which you are, I haven't checked) may not be traditional but it doesn't mean (s)he's pretending to be a Christian!

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2008, 11:48 PM
Brother Mark, it's rude to say that she's not a Christian!
Maybe she just has a different view! He/she (sorry I don't know which you are, I haven't checked) may not be traditional but it doesn't mean (s)he's pretending to be a Christian!

Nah. He/she suggested it in her wording. And then owned up to it.

By the way, welcome to the forums.

daughter
Jan 31st 2008, 11:56 PM
Hi Etain. As a former bisexual, who at one point thought she was a lesbian... I can really empathise with how you feel right now.

I do feel that a lot of these tendencies are caused, or contributed to by, problems in how we're raised. Boys are made to feel like they shouldn't ever express emotion, or be tactile, or gentle, or compassionate... if they feel these things they're mocked for it... they start to think they may be gay, at puberty they are flooded with hormones (and let's face it, at that age most lads would fancy ANYTHING) and then they think... "That's it, I'm gay!"

Women on the other hand grow up thinking they must be meek, submissive, gentle, always loving, never angry or assertive or tomboyish. If like me they turn out big and strong, climbing trees and playing rugby, everyone starts giggling that maybe they bat for the other team as it were... then if you find out when your hormones hit that the boys your age are hideous oiks who aren't in the least interested in talking to you, and only want one thing, you think, "urgh, I don't like men." You start thinking you may be gay... then you have an ugly sexual experience perhaps (in my case I was raped, but it doesn't have to be that bad) and you feel that this is AWFUL, and you never ever want to go through that again. What's wrong with you? You hate the idea of sex with men! You must be androgynous... But women have hormones pumping, the same as boys... just we don't realise that our hormones are not only responsible for pmt, but also for sexual desire. So we sublimate it, and end up looking at other women... wishing we were confident and sassy and beautiful like them. Then we think we fancy them, then we think, "oh no! I'm a lesbian!"

I've just described my journey to lesbianism.

I had one female relationship, followed by my son's father. I decided I must be bisexual. Then I met my husband, and decided that I was straight, but just had crushes (very embarassing to me at this time) on women. Thing is, I adored my husband, and didn't want to do anything against him, so I hated my gay leanings as even though he told me not to worry, I felt like I was cheating on him just by thinking these thoughts. I no longer enjoyed them, I struggled against them, and still they overcame me. I imagine this is what a Christian struggling with homosexual feelings endures.

Then I became Christian, and I've never fancied another woman since. I got such a shock later in the week I became Christian... I saw a female doctor visit my husband in the hospital, someone I'd never been able to look at without blushing, come in... and nothing happened. I can look at a woman now and think, "she's beautiful" or even, "she's gorgeous..." But I've not once had any embarassing urges or fantasies since I became Christian.

I think that if you still have these problems it could partly be to do with unresolved issues in your past. It certainly isn't something you should hate yourself for, or judge yourself for. It's a trial you are getting through, so long as you keep asking God to help you.

And I think it is good practice if we don't call people names like "lesbian, straight, bisexual, gay..."

We're all human, male and female.

First, start thinking of yourself as a woman, not a lesbian, as a human, not a type.

If you want to pm me do. I hope I've said nothing to offend you... I just wanted to share that I really do know what it feels like to have urges that confuse you and leave you miserable - and that suddenly at the age of 35 I was cured.

Etain
Feb 1st 2008, 12:02 AM
daughter, thanks for sharing your story.

grit
Feb 1st 2008, 12:04 AM
Thanks, everyone, for the responses.

For the sake of learning, I'm going to raise objections I have encountered in my debates with liberals. What I'm saying won't necessarily reflect what I believe. I just want to know what you would say to arguments I have had trouble with.

The Biblical sex laws come from a time when there was no protection from STDs. Back then, sex put you in mortal peril, such that it was off-limits except to people trying to reproduce (not reproducing was worse than STDs). Sex for any other purpose (e.g. pleasure) was foolhardy. But today, we know about STDs and how to contain them. Rather than uphold laws blindly, it is time for us as a society to ask God how we should behave sexually in light of new knowledge. Nothing is prohibited without a reason, right?

I would say that such a claim is in peril of disavowing as irrelevant the entirety of Christian Scripture. If we presumptuously claim to know God's mind as contrary to what He has revealed concerning Himself and His decreed designs, then, in our minds, we have made God a pawn of our own design and in our own creaturely and fallen image. We have, in essence, idolotrously made ourself into a god and created our own scriptures to suit our desires.


Part of me thinks my lesbian tendencies come from dysfunction in my upbringing. Yet not everyone who goes through far worse psychotrauma than mine becomes bisexual or homosexual. So I'm beginning to doubt that explanation and tending to accept my sexual orientation as a gift from God. A strange and frightening gift, but a gift nonetheless. I have asked Him repeatedly what I am to do with the gift. Am I to bring peace and understanding to a debate that is cutting obscene rifts between His children, who should be worrying about more dangerous things, like terrorism? Should I have a relationship with another woman and learn of His love by loving a human? Should I prove to the world that homosexuality can be overcome?
I would counsel that thankfulness for God's providence in one's situation is often a very, very difficult thing to grasp, but one we are nonetheless advised by God Himself to orient ourselves toward (Philippians 4:4-7). Even Job, with all his divinely appointed suffering gathered the faith to proclaim, " Though He slay me, I will hope in Him" (Job 13:15), and was cautioned that he would be out-of-place to disagreeably question the only one who could say, "Whatever is under the whole of heaven is Mine" (Job 41:10b-11). (see also Isaiah 64:8, & Romans 9:19-20)

Whatever 'gift' of challenge we might find ourselves both burdened and privileged to bear and redeem to the glory of God, "God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1: 6-7).


I have asked Him repeatedly. The answer I have received is more and more zeal to find the truth.
:pray:

Studyin'2Show
Feb 1st 2008, 01:55 AM
Although it is wrong, I believe that it can be natural. But as long as you find faith and God, he can help you steer away from the sin.
If homosexuality is natural in wild animals like cows and horses and such, then why couldn't it be natural in humans? Especially with all these chemicals that get pumped into our food that messed with our brain and hormones?
I believe when you get to heaven that there will be former gay people there.
Or I think even if you are gay and you've tried to change with the help of the lord but can't, you'll still be forgiven as long as you don't participate in any acts of homosexuality, like you stop yourself from thinking like that because you know it's wrong. Your still may be attracted to the same sex, but you just don't think about it and avoid doing anything with the same sex.Sorry it took me so long to get to this but I've had an extremely busy day. As I am one who formerly considered myself bisexual, I will have to say that daughter has hit the nail squarely on the head!

As to the comment about homosexuality being natural, I'd say, stealing is 'natural'. My seven year old daughter keeps bringing her class dominoes home from school even though I've scolded her for it. Lying is 'natural', just ask the five year old with his face covered with chocolate cookie when he says "No, I didn't eat the cookie." All sin is 'natural' to our flesh. That is why we are not to conform to this world but be transformed into the image of Messiah Yeshua! :pp

1 Peter 1:13-16
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

God Bless!

VerticalReality
Feb 1st 2008, 02:02 AM
Although it is wrong, I believe that it can be natural. But as long as you find faith and God, he can help you steer away from the sin.
If homosexuality is natural in wild animals like cows and horses and such, then why couldn't it be natural in humans? Especially with all these chemicals that get pumped into our food that messed with our brain and hormones?
I believe when you get to heaven that there will be former gay people there.
Or I think even if you are gay and you've tried to change with the help of the lord but can't, you'll still be forgiven as long as you don't participate in any acts of homosexuality, like you stop yourself from thinking like that because you know it's wrong. Your still may be attracted to the same sex, but you just don't think about it and avoid doing anything with the same sex.

Just FYI, but animals do not engage in homosexuality because of some perverted sexual desire. Animals do things like this for control. It's not like a dog is having some perverted thoughts going through it's little brain that is drawing it to another dog of the same sex. It's two completely different things that really do not relate whatsoever.

Raindrops_On_Roses
Feb 1st 2008, 02:36 AM
Probably so, but I remember God saying that no sin is worse than another in his eyes.
I think a lot of people nowadays want to be gay because it's a trend. But I know there's a few people who really think they are.
Like I think probably 99.9% of gay people could change if they REALLY truly wanted to, with the help of God.
Maybe it's not natural in the genetic sort of way, but I think it depends on a variety of factors. Like how you were raised, trauma, even just curiosity.
But I don't think anyone here should dislike gay people. That's wrong. God said love thy neighbor, and to hate the sin but love the sinner. Some people actually believe they are gay from the start, and there's no changing their minds. Don't discriminate against them, lead them to God :)

Not to rant, it's just that my best friend is a gay guy and you'd think since there's a lot of Christians at my school, they'd show him compassion and try to be nice to him and lead to to the lord. But whenever I walk down the hall with him at least twenty different "Christians" that I know scream "go kill yourself, f@gg0t!" and it's just horrible. That's not what Christians should say :( Especially when he just got out of the hospital for trying to kill himself for a third time.
(Just thought I'd throw that in there in case there's any Christians like that here :mad: )

Brother Mark
Feb 1st 2008, 02:39 AM
Probably so, but I remember God saying that no sin is worse than another in his eyes.
I think a lot of people nowadays want to be gay because it's a trend. But I know there's a few people who really think they are.
Like I think probably 99.9% of gay people could change if they REALLY truly wanted to, with the help of God.
Maybe it's not natural in the genetic sort of way, but I think it depends on a variety of factors. Like how you were raised, trauma, even just curiosity.
But I don't think anyone here should dislike gay people. That's wrong. God said love thy neighbor, and to hate the sin but love the sinner. Some people actually believe they are gay from the start, and there's no changing their minds. Don't discriminate against them, lead them to God :)


I too believe folks can be changed by God. Thanks for pointing that out.


Not to rant, it's just that my best friend is a gay guy and you'd think since there's a lot of Christians at my school, they'd show him compassion and try to be nice to him and lead to to the lord. But whenever I walk down the hall with him at least twenty different "Christians" that I know scream "go kill yourself, f@gg0t!" and it's just horrible. That's not what Christians should say :( Especially when he just got out of the hospital for trying to kill himself for a third time.
(Just thought I'd throw that in there in case there's any Christians like that here :mad: )


Not a lot of grace in those words. It's not something we should say. All sinners need grace and help. Graceless words won't lead them to Christ.

daughter
Feb 1st 2008, 02:42 AM
Not to rant, it's just that my best friend is a gay guy and you'd think since there's a lot of Christians at my school, they'd show him compassion and try to be nice to him and lead to to the lord. But whenever I walk down the hall with him at least twenty different "Christians" that I know scream "go kill yourself, f@gg0t!" and it's just horrible. That's not what Christians should say :( Especially when he just got out of the hospital for trying to kill himself for a third time.
(Just thought I'd throw that in there in case there's any Christians like that here :mad: )
There's no Christians like that anywhere. Folks may think they're Christian, but they're not if He doesn't know it, and if they don't live and love like Him.

Jesus loved sinners enough to die for us. Anyone who abuses a homosexual practitioner like that needs to remember that they are a filthy sinner too, and that Jesus died for them... and not just understand it intellectually, but actually contemplate the cross, and weep for what He endured for our sake.

A "straight" man who drives a homosexual away from Christ by hateful shrieking like you have described is NOT a Christian.

Raindrops_On_Roses
Feb 1st 2008, 02:44 AM
Yeah I know.
I just don't like mean Christians =/

Raindrops_On_Roses
Feb 1st 2008, 02:46 AM
There's no Christians like that anywhere. Folks may think they're Christian, but they're not if He doesn't know it, and if they don't live and love like Him.

Jesus loved sinners enough to die for us. Anyone who abuses a homosexual practitioner like that needs to remember that they are a filthy sinner too, and that Jesus died for them... and not just understand it intellectually, but actually contemplate the cross, and weep for what He endured for our sake.

A "straight" man who drives a homosexual away from Christ by hateful shrieking like you have described is NOT a Christian.


Well said. :)
My sister works at a movie theater and get the rudest people who yell at her because they came in late for their movie. And then they claim to be Christians. It's like... pshh, nice example you're setting.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 1st 2008, 03:06 AM
I have to say Raindrops, that doesn't sound like any high school in America. My oldest daughter just graduated and pretty much every high school has a Gay/Straight Alliance club. :rolleyes: Someone, Christian or otherwise, coming out with a line like that would be buried in loserville in that school. And why exactly are people claiming to be Christian at the movie theatre after yelling at your sister? That doesn't even sound right. :hmm:

Raindrops_On_Roses
Feb 1st 2008, 04:03 AM
I have to say Raindrops, that doesn't sound like any high school in America. My oldest daughter just graduated and pretty much every high school has a Gay/Straight Alliance club. :rolleyes: Someone, Christian or otherwise, coming out with a line like that would be buried in loserville in that school. And why exactly are people claiming to be Christian at the movie theatre after yelling at your sister? That doesn't even sound right. :hmm:

Your daughter must go to a good highschool.
Mine is a typical middle/upper class school. And all the popular kids are like that.
And our school refuses to have a gay/straight alliance club. I tried to start one up but the principal told me "That's why we have the diversity club"
But Diversity club is mainly focused on ethnic equality and stuff. And really, they don't even talk about that, let alone anything else. They just set up raffle ticket stands with a banner pinned up behind them that says "DIVERSITY CLUB."

And at the movie theater... let's see. She always gets a bunch of people who will come in to see movies and they'll be wearing cross necklaces and stuff and they'll be like "HURRY UP I'M LATE FOR MY MOVIE. YOU HAVE BAD SERVICE!" And they'll like snatch the pen out of my sisters hand to write checks and they'll just throw the money at her and my sister just stands there like "Um alright don't yell at me because you got in line for your ticket 20 min. after your movie started."
Oh, even the pastor of my old church was a jerk when she was working. He didn't recognize who she was at first and he was getting really mad that he had to wait in line and he was mean to her and she was like "Yeah so how's church been without me?" and he got all embarrassed.

EDIT: In fact, here's a funny story. A Christian movie came out not too long ago and some lady came in to see it. My sister is required to ask every customer if they'd like to donate a dollar to a charity for kids who have no legs and such, and in return you get a pin to put on your shirt.
A lady walks in and says "I'd like a ticket to (insert Christian movie here that I can't remember title)." and my sister says "Alright that will be 9 dollars, and would you like to donate a dollar to the children's hospital for blahblahblah?" And the lady got SO offended that my sister asked that she started yelling at her right there on the spot. She was like "NO!" and my sister was like "Oh, alright.. just asking." and the lady says "DID YOU DONATE?!" and my sister points to the pin she was wearing and said "Yeah, I had to buy the pin.." and the lady says "WELL I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW I DO VOLUNTEER WORK EVERY WEEKEND!" And my sister's like "okay... that's nice." and the lady's like "DO YOU DO ANY VOLUNTEER WORK?!" and then my sisters co-worker walks up and says "Um actually yes, she does. She works with the mentally handicap 40 hours a week." and the lady goes "OH YEAH?! WHERE?!" and my sister's co-worker was like "Right here at the movie theater." and the lady's like "Rawr I don't deserved to be talked to like that!" and stormed off.
She was mean though =/

Studyin'2Show
Feb 1st 2008, 04:20 AM
Do you believe everyone who wears a cross is a Christian? Many will tell you it is just jewelry; a fashion statement. Oh, and BTW, do you have any stories about atheists yelling at your sister? We may as well make things fair, huh? In my experience, I've found that you will find jerks of every size shape and color, not just one particular religion. So, here's the deal. Either we stop with the 'bad Christian' stories, and start SERIOUSLY discussing the issue or this threads getting closed. :rolleyes:

Raindrops_On_Roses
Feb 1st 2008, 04:53 AM
Okay sorry. I wasn't saying that only Christians do that stuff though. I know other people do it too. But you asked... so.. yeah. Nevermind I guess.

renthead188
Feb 1st 2008, 05:42 AM
I have to say Raindrops, that doesn't sound like any high school in America. My oldest daughter just graduated and pretty much every high school has a Gay/Straight Alliance club. :rolleyes: Someone, Christian or otherwise, coming out with a line like that would be buried in loserville in that school. And why exactly are people claiming to be Christian at the movie theatre after yelling at your sister? That doesn't even sound right. :hmm:

I have to disagree... I graduated two years ago. While it is true that nearly every high school has a "Gay Straight Alliance Club" membership is low and it is much more common to see the majority of the children mercilessly pick on someone's supposed sexual orientation. For instance, I was involved in theatre all through high school. Everyone assumed that I was gay. For the first two years of high school I was teased horribly. The other schools that I have attended have been similar if not worse.

It's sad, but I have found that most kids in high school are VERY homophobic, despite recent "trends".

Athanasius
Feb 1st 2008, 05:51 AM
I have to disagree... I graduated two years ago. While it is true that nearly every high school has a "Gay Straight Alliance Club" membership is low and it is much more common to see the majority of the children mercilessly pick on someone's supposed sexual orientation. For instance, I was involved in theatre all through high school. Everyone assumed that I was gay. For the first two years of high school I was teased horribly. The other schools that I have attended have been similar if not worse.

It's sad, but I have found that most kids in high school are VERY homophobic, despite recent "trends".

I don't know where you're located, but where I live, membership in those sorts of clubs is extremely high. Relativism reigns, Christians are homophobic and the life style is completely natural.

There's still the occasional kid who picks on the 'gay kids'. But it really isn't common anymore, where I live.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 1st 2008, 08:35 PM
I don't know where you're located, but where I live, membership in those sorts of clubs is extremely high. Relativism reigns, Christians are homophobic and the life style is completely natural.

There's still the occasional kid who picks on the 'gay kids'. But it really isn't common anymore, where I live.:agree:The point is that people don't pick on them because they're Christian but because they're jerks. :rolleyes: Believers do not raise their children to do that. They teach them to love them into the kingdom of heaven. We can love those in the homosexual community, yet not lie to them when they ask us if it's right. No more than we would lie to a friend and tell them that it's a lifestyle choice to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder etc. Sin is sin; and people are people. Hate the sin; LOVE the people!

God Bless!

cnw
Feb 2nd 2008, 12:43 AM
When I was younger I lived under the guise of Christianity and sin (you name it, but all forms of sexual sin mainly) both in 2 parallel universes...my joke of a Christian life and my sin life.
until I found out that you can't live a Christian life at all when you are living in sin. To be a Christian is to repent and walk in righteousness. I also somehow had lived the lie that the Bible didn't say anything about lesbianism and therefore I was all good. at the end I have put the verses that convicted me. Especially the one about women with women.
We all have a sin nature. Any sexual activity between two or more people that aren't married (The Bible says man and wife) is sin. It is called the flesh. But when we come to Christ, we are free of that nature...we stop living in it. But the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked and many who believed they are saved really aren't. So they continue in sin, and lust, and a lie.
If you are living in this lifestyle now you have to understand in your heart it is sin. If it is a past thing but it still haunts you-start telling everyone you meet your testimony if you can repent and turn your life over to Christ...but first you have to have a testimony of Salvation. May God bless you with Truth.
Romans 1

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Fenris
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:41 PM
Oddly enough, lesbianism is not forbidden in the bible...

cnw
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:47 PM
ummm, Fen, Read above verses....and Testimony for that matter.

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:58 PM
Hey Fenris... Isn't hom*s*xuality considered an abomination in the OT? I would think that l*sb*anism would fall under that.

karenoka27
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:04 PM
cnw...I was just going to post those very same verses.

We all know in our hearts what sin is. Our own conscience bears witness against us. You know right from wrong. When one falls into a sin, they justify it..I didn't have to "come out of a closet" when I as a woman knew I wanted to marry a man. Obviously there is an element of shame when we are living in sin.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:08 PM
It is sin not to follow the word of God. God tells us to be fruitful and multiply. 'Nuff said!

threebigrocks
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:12 PM
Oddly enough, lesbianism is not forbidden in the bible...

Really, it is homosexuality that is forbidden. That includes both men and women:

Romans 1



25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,



It's exchanging that natural function and purpose for the unnatural.

Fenris
Feb 3rd 2008, 08:42 PM
Hey Fenris... Isn't hom*s*xuality considered an abomination in the OT? I would think that l*sb*anism would fall under that.
Only Male homosexuality.

Lesbianism was forbidden only by the rabbis.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 3rd 2008, 08:53 PM
Only Male homosexuality.

Lesbianism was forbidden only by the rabbis.The Bible you read may not be as clear, but the one I read includes women and men who exchange what is natural for what is unnatural.

Fenris
Feb 3rd 2008, 08:56 PM
The Bible you read may not be as clear, but the one I read includes women and men who exchange what is natural for what is unnatural.
I'm not arguing that it's wrong, I'm just making an observation about the text of the OT.

karenoka27
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:05 PM
I'm not arguing that it's wrong, I'm just making an observation about the text of the OT.
Are you saying that the New Testament is not the Word of God?

Romans 1:26-"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:"

Fenris
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:37 PM
Are you saying that the New Testament is not the Word of God?

I am not a Christian.

karenoka27
Feb 3rd 2008, 10:09 PM
I'm sorry Fenris...well I am sorry that you are not a Christian..how I would be praising the Lord that you were...however...I am new to Contro and I just thought because you quoted OT that you would also have an appreciation for the NT. For that I do apologize.

I find it interesting though that you would think that God would hold man accountable for homosexual sins but not a woman for her lust after a woman?

Fenris
Feb 3rd 2008, 10:48 PM
I find it interesting though that you would think that God would hold man accountable for homosexual sins but not a woman for her lust after a woman?

I don't think that God approves of lesbianism. The whole purpose of romantic love is to procreate. But I think lesbianism is 'less bad' in God's eyes.

daughter
Feb 4th 2008, 12:08 AM
I don't think that God approves of lesbianism. The whole purpose of romantic love is to procreate. But I think lesbianism is 'less bad' in God's eyes.
Why? What is it in male homosexuality that is so much more against the original purpose of sex than female homosexuality? Seems to me to be rather inconsistent to say "lesbianism is less bad" than male homosexuality. Does male homosexuality make you more squeamish than female homosexuality? There is no logical reason to see a moral difference between them, after all.

Also, with a user name like Fenris I doubt you are Jewish, so why do you consider the Tannakh more credible than the New Testament? You're not making a whole lot of sense to be honest.

cnw
Feb 4th 2008, 12:21 AM
My bet is that usually men who have a lust for lesbianism would find it "not as bad". keep their guilt in check. It is after all sensual...just lust. Even in the OT it stated not to lust after your neighbors wife....or wives.
The New Testament was speaking of the past in this Romans chapter, so There must be something to back it up in the OT.
There was definitely a rebuke for the worshipers of Baal which was a very sexual God. Women and men alike were destroyed due to this worship...If it wasn't that bad for women I would think they would be spared.
just an observation.

threebigrocks
Feb 4th 2008, 12:49 AM
My bet is that usually men who have a lust for lesbianism would find it "not as bad". keep their guilt in check. It is after all sensual...just lust. Even in the OT it stated not to lust after your neighbors wife....or wives.
The New Testament was speaking of the past in this Romans chapter, so There must be something to back it up in the OT.
There was definitely a rebuke for the worshipers of Baal which was a very sexual God. Women and men alike were destroyed due to this worship...If it wasn't that bad for women I would think they would be spared.
just an observation.

Someone come up with an OT verse that says something along the lines of "a woman is not to lay with a woman as with a man" and we'll see where we get from there. ;)

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 01:12 AM
Why? What is it in male homosexuality that is so much more against the original purpose of sex than female homosexuality? Seems to me to be rather inconsistent to say "lesbianism is less bad" than male homosexuality. Does male homosexuality make you more squeamish than female homosexuality? There is no logical reason to see a moral difference between them, after all.I don't know. But for whatever reason, God saw fit to outlaw male homosexuality in the OT but not lesbianism.


Also, with a user name like Fenris I doubt you are Jewish, so why do you consider the Tannakh more credible than the New Testament? You're not making a whole lot of sense to be honest.
Fenris was my dog. I have many fond memories of him.

I am Jewish and studied in Yeshiva for many years. You are free to believe of me whatever you like, of course.

cnw
Feb 4th 2008, 07:24 PM
Three, that is the verse I was looking for but I can't find it. It was actually the verse that convicted me.

Fen have you ever read The Lord of the Rings??? Fenris was the wolf.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 07:32 PM
Fenris was a giant wolf in Norse mythology.

My dog was a Siberian Husky who looked like a wolf. That's where his name came from.

Someone is using this as 'evidence' that I am not who I claim to be. :rolleyes:

I guess it's easier to question my identity than to spend time questioning the content of my posts.

threebigrocks
Feb 4th 2008, 07:33 PM
Three, that is the verse I was looking for but I can't find it. It was actually the verse that convicted me.

Roman 1


36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


This the one?

daughter
Feb 4th 2008, 07:46 PM
I don't know. But for whatever reason, God saw fit to outlaw male homosexuality in the OT but not lesbianism.

Fenris was my dog. I have many fond memories of him.

I am Jewish and studied in Yeshiva for many years. You are free to believe of me whatever you like, of course.
Don't worry! Why wouldn't I believe what you say of yourself? If you're Jewish then obviously your stance makes more sense. I was just thrown by the reference to "Fenris" and thought perhaps you were a Norse pagan, in which case I would have been confused! He's a beautiful dog by the way. I should have remembered, what with your beautiful avatar of him... you've mentioned him in the past.

daughter
Feb 4th 2008, 07:48 PM
Fenris was a giant wolf in Norse mythology.

My dog was a Siberian Husky who looked like a wolf. That's where his name came from.

Someone is using this as 'evidence' that I am not who I claim to be. :rolleyes:

I guess it's easier to question my identity than to spend time questioning the content of my posts. Not at all, now that I know where you're coming from I can understand your posts much better, and they make sense. If I'm that someone you refer to of course. You have to remember, I have a red alert going a lot of the time to any pagan reference because of my background... that's my problem, not yours, and I hope you don't take offense when I ask a question. Thanks for answering it, and I hope we're okay with each other now.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 07:56 PM
Not at all, now that I know where you're coming from I can understand your posts much better, and they make sense. If I'm that someone you refer to of course. You have to remember, I have a red alert going a lot of the time to any pagan reference because of my background... that's my problem, not yours, and I hope you don't take offense when I ask a question. Thanks for answering it, and I hope we're okay with each other now.Yes, I apologize for my tone in the above post. :kiss:

Anyway, because of questions you asked, I had time to think about why male homosexuality might be considered worse.

My suspicion, (which I have no way of verifying,) is as follows: The point of romantic love is to fulfill the commandment "Be fruitful and multiply". When a man is with another man, the act itself takes the human seed and wastes it. When two women are together, there is no corresponding wastage of human potential.

Just a thought.

karenoka27
Feb 4th 2008, 07:59 PM
Fenris your last post was an interesting point..and from an Old Testament view I can see why you would suggest that...however you said, that God would see Lesbianism as less bad....since when does our God see sin at all as less bad?

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 08:36 PM
since when does our God see sin at all as less bad?
Well, the Jewish view is that God can differentiate between different types of sins. Some are very serious, some are less serious, and some are minor.

karenoka27
Feb 4th 2008, 09:19 PM
I kind of understand what you are saying. When Abraham lied about Sarah being his sister...always bothered me...

but it seems that sexual sins God had no patience for..the punishment was "put them to death"...so I don't see why He would be ok with this one.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 09:26 PM
I kind of understand what you are saying. When Abraham lied about Sarah being his sister...always bothered me...If my wife asks me if thew dress she is wearing makes her look fat, is God going to punish me for sparing her feelings?


but it seems that sexual sins God had no patience for..the punishment was "put them to death"...so I don't see why He would be ok with this one.
Well, reading the OT one sees that only male homosexuality incurs the death penalty. As I said, perhaps it's because potential life is wasted. In any case, the rabbis outlawed lesbianism as well.

karenoka27
Feb 4th 2008, 09:27 PM
If my wife asks me if thew dress she is wearing makes her look fat, is God going to punish me for sparing her feelings?



Are you saying your wife looks fat in her dress?:lol:

threebigrocks
Feb 4th 2008, 09:28 PM
Well, the Jewish view is that God can differentiate between different types of sins. Some are very serious, some are less serious, and some are minor.

As compared to each other as sin, or as compared to God who is Holy?

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 09:32 PM
As compared to each other as sin, or as compared to God who is Holy?By definition none can compare to God.

But the point from the Jewish perspective is that God doesn't expect perfection from His imperfect creations. He expects us to be as good as we individually are capable of. This means that perhaps He would be willing to pardon minor sins for most individuals, and even more serious sins if we make atonement.

karenoka27
Feb 4th 2008, 09:33 PM
If God didn't expect perfection..why the Law?

threebigrocks
Feb 4th 2008, 09:36 PM
By definition none can compare to God.

But the point from the Jewish perspective is that God doesn't expect perfection from His imperfect creations. He expects us to be as good as we individually are capable of. This means that perhaps He would be willing to pardon minor sins for most individuals, and even more serious sins if we make atonement.


If God didn't expect perfection..why the Law?

Indeed, if the law was made imperfect - then what?

If it was made perfect and we are yet imperfect - then what?

Either way, there's no hope.

Edit to add: If nothing can compare to God, and I agree with you, then what is sin to a Holy and Righteous God, if we are imperfect and/or the law is imperfect?

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 09:37 PM
If God didn't expect perfection..why the Law?
A guideline. An ideal to strive towards. If nothing else, even partial obedience to the law has done a remarkable job in civilizing mankind.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 09:39 PM
Indeed, if the law was made imperfect - then what?

If it was made perfect and we are yet imperfect - then what?

Either way, there's no hope.
Well, the law is perfect. It's us that will fall short.

But so what? If my kid takes a test and gets a 90, does that have no value? Isn't a 90 better than a 0? Sure, it's not perfect, but it's pretty good.

karenoka27
Feb 4th 2008, 09:41 PM
I am going off topic here so I will stop. I find your answers so interesting. I would love to have another topic on something about Jewish beliefs vs. Christianity ...I would want to ask you then if "either way if we believe there is no hope.."then where do you think you will go when you die?

don't answer here as this thread is about lesbianism and I'm kind of through talking about this topic...

sorry to have taken this off topic...

threebigrocks
Feb 4th 2008, 09:43 PM
Well, the law is perfect. It's us that will fall short.

But so what? If my kid takes a test and gets a 90, does that have no value? Isn't a 90 better than a 0? Sure, it's not perfect, but it's pretty good.

Pretty good grades, a small sin.

Yet, sin is dirty in God's eyes. Sin is sin. How can we fufill something that was written by God, and is perfect by His standards if we continually fall short?

On a test, 90% is fabulous. But in God's eyes, it's still not enough. Sin is still in that 10%.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 10:03 PM
Well, the law is perfect. It's us that will fall short.

But so what? If my kid takes a test and gets a 90, does that have no value? Isn't a 90 better than a 0? Sure, it's not perfect, but it's pretty good.

I agree in part Fenris. We love our children knowing they will fall short. We don't expect them to be perfect. While their imperfections doesn't mean we sever our relationship with them, it also doesn't mean we allow them to "get away" with anything. I do agree that there are lesser and greater sins.

But having said all that, what about Saul? He mostly obeyed and still lost the kingdom.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 10:04 PM
I am going off topic here so I will stop. I find your answers so interesting.
I'm glad my presence here is contributing.:)


I would love to have another topic on something about Jewish beliefs vs. Christianity ...I would like that as well..

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 10:06 PM
Pretty good grades, a small sin.

Yet, sin is dirty in God's eyes. Sin is sin. How can we fufill something that was written by God, and is perfect by His standards if we continually fall short?

On a test, 90% is fabulous. But in God's eyes, it's still not enough. Sin is still in that 10%.
I understand that this is a fundamental Christian belief. But Jews don't see things this way.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 10:10 PM
I agree in part Fenris. We love our children knowing they will fall short. We don't expect them to be perfect. While their imperfections doesn't mean we sever our relationship with them, it also doesn't mean we allow them to "get away" with anything. I do agree that there are lesser and greater sins.OK, so we're on the same page here. Again. How surprising. :lol:


But having said all that, what about Saul? He mostly obeyed and still lost the kingdom.Well, what about Moses, who made one tiny mistake and was denied entry into Israel?

Obviously kings and prophets are held to higher standards than lowly people like you and I.

Teke
Feb 4th 2008, 10:39 PM
I understand that this is a fundamental Christian belief. But Jews don't see things this way.

What....Jews don't see sin as sin??:confused
I understand there are differences as with the person and so forth, but....what are you saying.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2008, 10:43 PM
What....Jews don't see sin as sin??:confused

Jews don't see sin as something that God is incapable of forgiving.

Teke
Feb 4th 2008, 10:49 PM
Jews don't see sin as something that God is incapable of forgiving.

Thanks, didn't know what you meant there. :)
BTW, neither do Christians see sin as something God is incapable of forgiving. As my subscript shows.;)

Fenris
Feb 5th 2008, 01:40 PM
BTW, neither do Christians see sin as something God is incapable of forgiving. As my subscript shows.;)
That's great. Then we don't need sacrifice, now do we?

threebigrocks
Feb 5th 2008, 02:10 PM
That's great. Then we don't need sacrifice, now do we?

Honest Fenris, that is something I try to understand, and I just :hmm:. Christians are under grace, but how do Jews today atone for sin? :confused

Geeze, just realized how far off topic we are! :D

Fenris
Feb 5th 2008, 02:13 PM
Honest Fenris, that is something I try to understand, and I just :hmm:. Christians are under grace, but how do Jews today atone for sin? :confused

Geeze, just realized how far off topic we are! :D
Give me a while to gather some biblical verses, and I'll start a thread on it. :)

karenoka27
Feb 5th 2008, 02:14 PM
Give me a while to gather some biblical verses, and I'll start a thread on it. :)

:ppI'm excited about this!

Fenris
Feb 5th 2008, 02:57 PM
:ppI'm excited about this!
OK, it's done:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=114705

threebigrocks
Feb 5th 2008, 04:08 PM
Let's keep this topic to the new thread. Okee dokey?

Teke
Feb 5th 2008, 04:32 PM
TBR, perhaps consider moving these last posts on sacrifice to Fenris' new thread. :hmm: With his permission of course.

Fenris
Feb 5th 2008, 04:37 PM
'Sacrifice as worship' doesn't fit the new thread either.