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Michael K
Feb 1st 2008, 02:43 PM
Godsgirl wrote:[Theologians often confuse the baptism in the Holy Spirit with salvation. They often regard these two experiences as being the same. This confuses believers. They incorrectly assume that salvation is the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not teach this.]

Theologians aside; In Joh 3:3 Jesus himself said that one must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God.
The question then is, "What specifically is Jesus referring to when He says; Born again"? Does He leave it open to interpretation? No, He is very clear on the requirement.

Jhn 3:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=3&version=kjv#3)Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In John 3:5, Jesus further explains exactly what He is talking about. Obviously, the birth by water is how we come into the world in the first place, the second form of rebirth is the key to where we go in the next life.

[The Bible clearly teaches that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from salvation and comes after a person is saved, although it can occur at the time of salvation]

You say that Salvation and baptism of the Spirit are not the same thing, it seems that Jesus does not agree with you.
He does not say that if you believe in me without being baptised in the Spirit, you will still see the Knigdom of Heaven, instead, He is emphatic about the requirement of baptism in the Spirit.

Jhn 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=5&version=kjv#5)Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

When Nicodemus questioned this requirement, Jesus said in John 3:7

Jhn 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=7&version=kjv#7)Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Baptism of the Spirit equates to a very specific life altering event. When one is beborn and baptised in the Spirit, their old self dies along side Jesus as He died on the cross so that we could be forgiven of our past sins. The Rebirth is the emergence of our New self, as Jesus emerged from His death on the 3rd day.
A person who has been truly baptised in the Spirit is not the same person that they were before. The Old man, as the Bible refers to us before we are reborn in the the Spirit, follows the ways of the world and the result is a man living in sin in a sinful world.
The only way for us to escape, or be Saved ,or receive our Salvation, is through the way that Jesus provided for us. Jesus said," I am the Way, no man shall enter Heaven except through me."
When one is reborn and baptised in the Spirit, as Jesus said in John 3:3, we follow the Holy Spirit as He leads us through the "Valley of the Shadow of Death". Many believe that this is the passage from this life to the next, this is not the case. The Valley of the Shadow of Death is the physical world that we all must live in while we are alive. Those that chose to walk through it alone will not receive the Salvation that awaits all those who have turned from their Old ways and instead, been baptised in the Holy Spirit as He leads us from the worldly Temptation that is everywhere.

Psalms 23:1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He is our shepherd after we are saved and Jesus made it clear what is required for us to receive our salvation.

2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Once we are saved, the world no longer holds the power over us that it once did. The Grace and peace that this verse is referring to comes after we are reborn in the Spirit. It is unattainable on our own.

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Speaking from personal experience, my troubled Soul was restored after I was truly reborn and baptised in the spirit, not when I was water baptised, 40 years earlier. Why there is a difference, I can not say, I just know when I was truly reborn, and that was when my old Man died and my New man emerged from the grave where my Old man was laid to rest.

How does He lead me in the paths of righteousness for His mane's sakes after our rebirth in the Spirit? The verse makes it clear that He does, and Jesus confirms it in Matthew 6:13 "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:"
So there must be a way. This is where most people falter due to a lack of understanding as the Parable of the seeds points out.
Have you ever asked yourself how does the Holy Spirit lead us not into temptation? When you are tempted to sin, what happens? Your conscience lets you know that it is wrong "if" you are attuned to it and "if" you have not progressively hidden everything you do from the guilt that you should receive from it whenever you do commit a sin. Again, I know what I am talking about here and others do too, if they take a long hard look at their past where the commision of sin was/is concerned.
The trap for the lost is that they have been so successful at hiding from their conscience whenever they do things that they want to do, but need a way to avoid a guilty conscience afterwards, they become blind to the guidance that they once received from it as it shed the light of truth on what they were doing. Their conscience is not clear. Jesus referred to it this way;
John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that [the] light [of truth] is come into the world, and men loved darkness [the absence of a guilty conscience] rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Sound familiar?
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Reproved? What is the definition of reproved? According to Random House; 1. scold, reprimand, upbraid, chide, reprehend, admonish.

Sounds like a guilty conscience to me, how about you?
So the light of truth through a clear conscience, lets us know when we are doing something bad and punishes us when we do, unless we decide to hide what we do from it.
But once we are saved, and we do the right thing, how do we know?

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Our clear conscience is just as capable of rewarding us with good feelings as it is at punishing our bad behavior.
The Human body is the most complex organism ever created...every part of it has a very specific function and nothing that was needed was excluded and nothing that was not necessary was included, so why would God create within us a conscience that does everything that the Bible says the Holy Spirit will do for those who walk with a clear conscience which has been purged of all out past accumulated guilt, if it were not a vital part of how the Holy Spirit communicates Gods's laws and guidance to us? The answer is, "He would not." The guidance and comfort that we receive from the Holy Spirit through our cleared conscience can be described like this;
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit doesn't speak to us in any language known to man, His voice is like the wind, we feel it and preceive it but we can not put our hands on it, if have cleared our conscience of the past guilt that we spent a lifetime avoiding by excusing it all away.
To repent is to admit that we will not do something any longer and that we understand that it was wrong. Accepting internal excuses in order to avoid a guilty conscience after we commit a sin is wrong and the baptised in the Spirit-New man, knows this and will not go back to that former sinful, worldly way of living.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

The Holy Spirit is always there to guide us from making bad decisions and He also prompts us to do good things "if" we keep our conscience clear and "if" we do not return to our old ways of applying excuses to sinful behavior in order to justify away the guilt that we know we would otherwise receive from our conscience.
"...thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. " How can a rod comfort us? A child might not agree when we use it on them whenever they do something bad, but the result is that they stop doing what they were doing and they understand that we do it out of our love and concern for them. God does the same thing whenever a Christian does something they should not do...and they will. The consequence of living with a clear conscience is that whenever we do something wrong and we refuse to apply an internal excuse to it, we will get a guilty conscience afterwards. This is the Holy Spirits way of chastising the saved. I welcome a guilty conscience when I do wrong because it lets me know that the Holy Spirit is watching and guiding me.
5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

In verse 6, He says, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:"
All the days of my life, both in this world and the next.

Eternal death as referred to in the Scrpitures, is not the death of our physical body, it is the death of our Soul. The life that Salvation brings is the survival of our Soul after we experience the physical death that all must undergo. For those who chose to walk through this Valley of the Shadow of Death alone and without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, their life will be short indeed and their death eternal.

God Bless you,

Michael

ProjectPeter
Feb 1st 2008, 03:10 PM
Alright Michael... start it fresh. You might send God's Girl a PM and let her know about the thread although were I a betting man... I figure she'll key in right on the thing with the title of the thread! :lol:

9Marksfan
Feb 1st 2008, 04:33 PM
Great post/thread, Michael K - here's a couple of verses that make the truth of what you say crystal clear:-

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." 1 Cor 12:13 NIV

Now - can someone be a Christian and not be in the body of Christ? Of course not!

Can someone be a Christian and not have drunk of the one Spirit? It means the same as coming to Christ:-

"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water" Jn 7:37b-38 NKJV

Again, of course not! Look at this passage too:-

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him." Rom 6:3-9 NKJV

This passage in Romans makes it abundantly clear that the baptism spoken of unites us to Christ and results in our old man actually being crucified by that baptism - it therefore cannot be water baptism (which symbolises our union with Christ), so it must therefore be baptism in the Spirit, as in the 1 Cor 12:13 passage - baptising us into Christ and His body!

mcgyver
Feb 1st 2008, 04:48 PM
Alright Michael... start it fresh. You might send God's Girl a PM and let her know about the thread although were I a betting man... I figure she'll key in right on the thing with the title of the thread! :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I think that a large part of the problem stems from the usage of words rather than a difference in theology...

I agree that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is that by which we are born again alive unto God. The "Mechanism" if you will, and therefore is not a "secondary" work of Grace. John 3:5-6 says: "Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Without going into a treatise of all the shades of meaning of Baptize/Baptism etc. in Greek...One of the "shades" of meaning can be expressed as (very roughly) "having one's identity defined in or by God", or "being washed/regenerated/etc." by God (c.f. 2 Cor 5:17).

The "Filling" of the Holy Spirit however, is something that comes and goes; because our own will comes into play...that is to say, one must seek to be filled with the Spirit. For example: Paul in writing to assembly of born-again believers at Ephesus writes: "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit..." (Eph 5:18 NKJV).

I would say IMO, that the problem then is a definition of terms....But again, JMO

menJesus
Feb 1st 2008, 08:22 PM
Godsgirl wrote:[Theologians often confuse the baptism in the Holy Spirit with salvation. They often regard these two experiences as being the same. This confuses believers. They incorrectly assume that salvation is the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not teach this.]

She is correct.

Buck shot
Feb 1st 2008, 08:46 PM
John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

My vote goes literal interpretation ... again. I think for salvation you must be born again. You cannot be saved if you are not born again (of the spirit this time) and you cannot be born again unless you are saved so they must happen together.

I agree it is a play on words to cofuse being "filled with the spirit" and "born of the spirit". These are two different things. I am an American but sometimes I am not as patriotic as others (a bad example probably)

losthorizon
Feb 1st 2008, 11:02 PM
..."Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him." Rom 6:3-9 NKJV

This passage in Romans makes it abundantly clear that the baptism spoken of unites us to Christ and results in our old man actually being crucified by that baptism - it therefore cannot be water baptism (which symbolises our union with Christ), so it must therefore be baptism in the Spirit, as in the 1 Cor 12:13 passage - baptising us into Christ and His body!
Peter tells us (1 Peter 3:21) that Christian baptism is “the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”. The passage above in Romans 6 is a description of immersion in water (baptism) which points to the salvation we have by and through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross – thus believers are “baptized into His death”. Further, those immersed believers rise up out of the “watery grave of baptism” so they “should walk in newness of life”. Why? Because they have experienced the “new birth” - the birth "of water and the Spirit". The old man has died to self and is buried in water and the new man is born as he rises up out of the water. It is through the operation of the Holy Spirit that our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ – the blood that He shed “in His death” – the death we are “baptized into” – “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death.”
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)

godsgirl
Feb 1st 2008, 11:25 PM
Wow! Sorry, no prize. Play on words all you want-but the Bible makes it plain that Being baptised IN the Spirit is a different thing than being baptised BY the Spirit--
For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body---the Holy Spirit does the baptising-the body of Christ is what we're baptised into. At the moment of salvation-the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us and places us into the Body of Christ.

Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit-Promised from the Father and given to the church for the first time at the Day of Pentecost-and yes, given to those who were already Christians--case in point--Acts chapter 19--and Acts Chapter 8.

So being born of the Spirit is seperate and distinct from being filled (baptised in the Spirit)
. Jesus' ministry had two distinct goals.


To take away sin = regeneration, being born again. Jn 1:29, “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”.
To baptise in the Holy Spirit. Jn 1:33 “…this is He who baptises with the Holy Spirit”.2. The Disciples received two distinct and separate workings of the Holy Spirit.


After Christ's Resurrection. John 20:22, “He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that every believer receives at salvation.
At Pentecost. (An experience subsequent to regeneration.)
Acts 2:4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance”. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.
Jesus made reference in Acts 1:5 that what they received in John 20:22 wasn't the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That would occur a few days later. What is clear however is that they were already saved.
They belonged to God, Jn 17:9-10.
Their names were written in heaven, Luke 10:20.
They had eternal life, Jn 10:27-29.
3. The Samaritans also had two distinct experiences.


They were saved and baptised in water under Philip's ministry, Acts 8:5-13.
They were baptised in the Holy Spirit under Peter and John's ministry some time later.
(Acts 8:14-17).
II DEFINITION

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an experience that can only happen to a Christian. It is the Holy Spirit coming upon believers and filling them in order to energise and empower them for service.

This experience is also referred to in the New Testament as:


Falling of the Holy Spirit - Acts 8:16, 10:44, 11:15.
Filling of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:4, 4:8,31; 6:3,5; 7:55; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9.
Coming upon, Acts 1:8; 19:6.
Poured out upon, Acts 10:45.
Receiving the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38; 8:15,17; 8:19; 10:48; 19:2.
Gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38, 8:20, 10:15.
Baptised in the Holy Spirit, Acts 1:5; 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16.
The promise of the Father, Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4, 2:33, 2:29.
Giving of the Holy Spirit, Luke 11:13, Acts 5:32, 8:18, 15:8.

Illumined
Feb 2nd 2008, 05:44 AM
Wow! Sorry, no prize. Play on words all you want-but the Bible makes it plain that Being baptised IN the Spirit is a different thing than being baptised BY the Spirit--
John 3:34
…for God gives the spirit without limit.


Filled ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fl)
1. To put into (a container, for example) as much as can be held:
2. To supply or provide to the fullest extent:
Bap·tized ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bp-tz, bptz)
1. To admit into Christianity by means of baptism.
1. To cleanse or purify.
2. To initiate.
Re·ceive( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-sv)
1. To take or acquire (something given, offered, or transmitted); get.
2. To take in, hold, or contain:
3. To admit:


Acts 1:5
For John baptized with[ 1:5 Or in] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."



Here is a few days later......

Acts 2:1
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.



here it is....just as promised in Acts 1:5

Acts 2:4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit......

Acts 11:15
"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.


Acts 11:16
Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Acts 1:5 points forward to acts 2:4 ....and Acts 11:15-16 point back to acts 2:4



There is no mistake in understanding the simplicity of the words. He said they would be baptized by the spirit in a few days....and when that day came the word used was filled. One and the same.
Titus 3:5
…..He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

mcgyver
Feb 2nd 2008, 06:21 AM
Wow! Sorry, no prize. Play on words all you want-but the Bible makes it plain that Being baptised IN the Spirit is a different thing than being baptised BY the Spirit--

Actually, it does not...the problem is with terminology, as you yourself point out in the rest of your post.


For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body---the Holy Spirit does the baptising-the body of Christ is what we're baptised into. At the moment of salvation-the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us and places us into the Body of Christ.So far so good...we are in 100% agreement! :)


Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit-Promised from the Father and given to the church for the first time at the Day of Pentecost-and yes, given to those who were already Christians--case in point--Acts chapter 19--and Acts Chapter 8.
Here is where we start having problems with terminology...In both Acts Chapter 8 and 19 Baptism refers to a positional change in the former, and a preparatory Change in the latter.

Acts 8:16: "For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of Jesus" I think we can agree here that they were already saved (as you mentioned above).

Acts 8:17 continues: "Then they laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit" Neither the English translation nor the underlying Greek text mentions or even alludes to "Baptism".

In Acts 19:3: "And he said to them, 'into what were you baptized?' So they said, 'Into John's Baptism'". John's Baptism was two fold if you remember: 1. A baptism of repentance in anticipation of Messiah, and 2. That Jesus would be revealed to Israel (Matt 3:11 & John 1:31)

Acts 19:5 continues: "When they heard this they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus." Positional change here...born again and placed in Christ.

Acts 19:6 picks up: "And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied". Once again neither the English translation nor the underlying Greek text indicates anything to do with "Baptism".


So being born of the Spirit is seperate and distinct from being filled (baptised in the Spirit)But yet you said:


For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body---the Holy Spirit does the baptising-the body of Christ is what we're baptised into. At the moment of salvation-the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us and places us into the Body of Christ.Your own words here, see the conflict?


. Jesus' ministry had two distinct goals.

To take away sin = regeneration, being born again. Jn 1:29, “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”.
To baptise in the Holy Spirit. Jn 1:33 “…this is He who baptises with the Holy Spirit”.Respectfully, these are not two distinct goals...John 3:14-18 states Christ's goals quite succinctly, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what causes one to be born again..a point that you have already agreed upon.


2. The Disciples received two distinct and separate workings of the Holy Spirit.
After Christ's Resurrection. John 20:22, “He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that every believer receives at salvation.
At Pentecost. (An experience subsequent to regeneration.)
Acts 2:4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance”. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.
Jesus made reference in Acts 1:5 that what they received in John 20:22 wasn't the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That would occur a few days later. What is clear however is that they were already saved.
They belonged to God, Jn 17:9-10.
Their names were written in heaven, Luke 10:20.
They had eternal life, Jn 10:27-29. Once again, "Received", Filled with", "came upon" are all different than "Baptism" in the text.


3. The Samaritans also had two distinct experiences.


They were saved and baptised in water under Philip's ministry, Acts 8:5-13.
True, that's what the text says


They were baptised in the Holy Spirit under Peter and John's ministry some time later.
Once again the Text does not used the word "Baptized"

If you want to call the filling of the Holy Spirit "Baptized", I really could care less...But at least let us be cognizant of the fact that the text in English/Spanish/German or Greek does not support such an interpretation...

TrustGzus
Feb 2nd 2008, 09:33 AM
Actually, it does not...the problem is with terminology, as you yourself point out in the rest of your post . . . If you want to call the filling of the Holy Spirit "Baptized", I really could care less...But at least let us be cognizant of the fact that the text in English/Spanish/German or Greek does not support such an interpretation...I agree with mcgyver.

As I read this thread, I don't see much theological difference as I do semantical differences.

I spiritually grew up in Calvary Chapels (CC). Chuck Smith, the founder of CC, has always taught baptism as a separate event from salvation. As I study the Scripture, I've come to disagree with Chuck's terminology and believe that taught properly, the Scripture claims we are baptized in the Holy Spirit at salvation (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1cor%2012:13;&version=49;) but are continually needing to be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%205:18&version=49)).

That being said, I think Chuck said it well at a pastors' conference I was at several years ago when he said (I'm quoting from memory)
Baptized in the Holy Spirit . . . filled with the Holy Spirit . . . I don't care what you call it. The important thing is do you have it?Well said, in my opinion.

Grace & peace,

Joe

godsgirl
Feb 3rd 2008, 12:46 PM
"Baptized in the Holy Spirit . . . filled with the Holy Spirit . . . I don't care what you call it. The important thing is do you have it?"

Definition....The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an experience that can only happen to a Christian. It is the Holy Spirit coming upon believers and filling them in order to energise and empower them for service.


Amen. Jesus called this a "baptism" , so that's why I did, but this same teaching is given different terminology in the Word, He called it "the promise of the Father" also.

This experience is also referred to in the New Testament as:

Falling of the Holy Spirit - Acts 8:16, 10:44, 11:15.
Filling of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:4, 4:8,31; 6:3,5; 7:55; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9.
Coming upon, Acts 1:8; 19:6.
Poured out upon, Acts 10:45.
Receiving the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38; 8:15,17; 8:19; 10:48; 19:2.
Gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38, 8:20, 10:15.
Baptised in the Holy Spirit, Acts 1:5; 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16.
The promise of the Father, Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4, 2:33, 2:29.
Giving of the Holy Spirit, Luke 11:13, Acts 5:32, 8:18, 15:8.

Frances
Feb 3rd 2008, 02:26 PM
Godsgirl wrote:[Theologians often confuse the baptism in the Holy Spirit with salvation. They often regard these two experiences as being the same. This confuses believers. They incorrectly assume that salvation is the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not teach this.]

She is correct.

Definately.
Jesus' disciples, those He walked this earth with, and those He designated Apostles, were presumably Saved because Jesus 'breathed on them, and said 'receive the Holy Spirit' (John 20:22); and they all, without exception, needed to be Baptised in and by the Holy Spirit.

and before I was able to fulfill all the tasks the Lord prepared me for, so did I. (and so do you . . . .)

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 02:32 PM
We are filled with the Holy Spirit when we repent and are saved.

We are baptised in the Holy Spirit for the works we will do through Him.

Once we receive the baptism, we are annointed to do His works.

mcgyver
Feb 3rd 2008, 03:32 PM
Baptism...Filling...I guess we can make these terms a point of division if we want to...But WHY should/would we want to????? :rolleyes:

The only reason I replied in the first place was because of the broad statement:


Theologians often confuse the baptism in the Holy Spirit with salvation. They often regard these two experiences as being the same. This confuses believers. They incorrectly assume that salvation is the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not teach this.

We've got to be careful in making such broad and sweeping statements...

The semantics are different, the theology is the same.

Incidentally, for the first 1950 some odd years of church history; there was no problem with the semantics of it...nor is there a problem with semantics in the Greek underlying texts...

Can we agree that at least the theology is the same?

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 03:44 PM
I am not trying to make anything, anything. They are two distinctly separate things...

We are filled with the Holy Spirit when we are saved. He stays with us.

The baptism of the holy Spirit is a separate, one-time event, that gives us the annointing to do His work.

This is extremely difficult to figure out. I studied it for weeks before I got it into my own head, that they are two separate, unrelated acts - the only relating being that they are both of the same Spirit...

We are filled at salvation but not baptised. If we were, why would anyone say Have you received? as we should already have the baptism. We have the infilling of the Holy Spirit as new christians, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate act, always with the manifestation of speaking in tongues.

This gift comes later - sometimes 30 seconds, sometimes 30 years, sometimes never... but we are filled with the Holy Spirit for life, unless He withdraws from us as He did from the king Saul.

Zorgblar
Feb 3rd 2008, 04:11 PM
I am not trying to make anything, anything. They are two distinctly separate things...

We are filled with the Holy Spirit when we are saved. He stays with us.

The baptism of the holy Spirit is a separate, one-time event, that gives us the annointing to do His work.

This is extremely difficult to figure out. I studied it for weeks before I got it into my own head, that they are two separate, unrelated acts - the only relating being that they are both of the same Spirit...

We are filled at salvation but not baptised. If we were, why would anyone say Have you received? as we should already have the baptism. We have the infilling of the Holy Spirit as new christians, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate act, always with the manifestation of speaking in tongues.

This gift comes later - sometimes 30 seconds, sometimes 30 years, sometimes never... but we are filled with the Holy Spirit for life, unless He withdraws from us as He did from the king Saul.

So what your saying is that the entering of the holy spirit into someone and water baptism are different is because they happen seperate from each other right?

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 04:26 PM
No, I am not talking of water baptism at all.

When we are saved, the Holy Spirit comes into our heart to live with us - friend, counselor, comforter... we may feel this, and we may not - but He is there.

When we are baptised with the Holy Spirit it feels like electricity, or fire, or wind, or any or all the above - and sometimes something else. But He will definitely manifest Himself to us in a way that we know it is Him. And when we are baptised in the Holy Spirit, the speaking in tongues always accompanies the baptism.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 04:31 PM
This is where you and I would disagree. While speaking in tongues is certainly A sign... speaking in tongues isn't THE ONLY sign. THat is what many have believed over the years as it was taught them because of a passage of Scripture. But that isn't at all what that passage of Scripture is saying. It was simply a sign so Peter and the others knew that the Gentiles too received the Spirit. That doesn't at all mean that it was THE only sign. One could prophecy, discern, etc. The gifts are doled out to folks as the Spirit sees fit. At that time... it was tongues. Something that was remarkable and something the disciples would have certainly recognized. Be it coming from Gentiles... this was likely needed because in all honesty... Jewish folk just weren't that keen on Gentile folk. So an event happened, just as remarkable as the even on the day of Pentecost. None of them left there with any doubt that salvation too had come to the Gentiles. :) Make sense?

Zorgblar
Feb 3rd 2008, 04:33 PM
No, I am not talking of water baptism at all.

When we are saved, the Holy Spirit comes into our heart to live with us - friend, counselor, comforter... we may feel this, and we may not - but He is there.

When we are baptised with the Holy Spirit it feels like electricity, or fire, or wind, or any or all the above - and sometimes something else. But He will definitely manifest Himself to us in a way that we know it is Him. And when we are baptised in the Holy Spirit, the speaking in tongues always accompanies the baptism.

OK so your just saying that once we get the holy spirit we will get a sign of it and know it for sure?

godsgirl
Feb 3rd 2008, 04:51 PM
Semantics doesn't make any difference-the statement that there is a seperate experience after salvation-that includes speaking in tongues as it's initial evidence still stands. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

I believe that a scriptural case can be made that 'tongues" ARE the initial sign of this "baptism"(Jesus's word for this experience)--because when we are given evidence in scripture tongues are always there. I do not see a scriptural case for even one time where tongues were NOT there.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:05 PM
Semantics doesn't make any difference-the statement that there is a seperate experience after salvation-that includes speaking in tongues as it's initial evidence still stands. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

I believe that a scriptural case can be made that 'tongues" ARE the initial sign of this "baptism"(Jesus's word for this experience)--because when we are given evidence in scripture tongues are always there. I do not see a scriptural case for even one time where tongues were NOT there.
Acts 9:14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon Thy name."
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."
17 And Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he arose and was baptized;
19 and he took food and was strengthened. ¶Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus,
20 and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God."


Now you have your biblical case. ;)

godsgirl
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:13 PM
OK so your just saying that once we have get the holy spirit we will get a sign of it and know it for sure?

Everyone "gets" the Holy Spirit when they are saved. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell us-there is, however, a second work I am calling "the baptism in the Holy Spirit" that is accompianed by the ability to speak in tongues as the Spirit enables us. This baptism is adminstered by Jesus Christ. He is our baptiser in the Spirit.

godsgirl
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:16 PM
Acts 9:14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon Thy name."
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."
17 And Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he arose and was baptized;
19 and he took food and was strengthened. ¶Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus,
20 and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God."


Now you have your biblical case. ;)

huh????? Isn't this talking about Paul?-the one who said, "I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you"

Besides this obvious fact, where in the above statement are we told that he didn't speak in tongues at that moment?

Like I said, "when we are given evidence, tongues are always there" so there you go....

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:27 PM
huh????? Isn't this talking about Paul?-the one who said, "I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you"

Besides this obvious fact, where in the above statement are we told that he didn't speak in tongues at that moment?

Like I said, "when we are given evidence, tongues are always there" so there you go....
Sure... Paul, who wrote that to the Corinth church many years after his initial salvation and being filled with the Spirit.

And no... there is nothing at all in that passage that shows us where Paul gave evidence of tongues.... is there? WHat Paul did 20 years later... ten year... one year... that is after he was filled with the Spirit. It isn't the only evidence.

Another example.

Acts 19:1 And it came about that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found some disciples,
2 and he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 And when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
7 And there were in all about twelve men.

Here we have speaking in tongues and prophesying. Did they do both at the same time? No... two totally different gifts. Some may have spoke in tongues... some may have prophesied. Maybe they did both... but the fact remains... there is not just "ONE" initial evidence.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:35 PM
This is where you and I would disagree. While speaking in tongues is certainly A sign... speaking in tongues isn't THE ONLY sign. THat is what many have believed over the years as it was taught them because of a passage of Scripture. But that isn't at all what that passage of Scripture is saying. It was simply a sign so Peter and the others knew that the Gentiles too received the Spirit. That doesn't at all mean that it was THE only sign. One could prophecy, discern, etc. The gifts are doled out to folks as the Spirit sees fit. At that time... it was tongues. Something that was remarkable and something the disciples would have certainly recognized. Be it coming from Gentiles... this was likely needed because in all honesty... Jewish folk just weren't that keen on Gentile folk. So an event happened, just as remarkable as the even on the day of Pentecost. None of them left there with any doubt that salvation too had come to the Gentiles. :) Make sense?

Make sense? yes. But fact? Ah, that would be...no.

Speaking in tongues is THE sign WHEN YOU RECEIVE the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Now, this is where the confusion comes in for many: speaking in tongues is not solely from the baptism. None of the gifts are.

Once we are saved and filled with the Spirit, we can operate in the gifts you are speaking of. We do not have to have the Holy Spirit baptism in order to be able to have and use these gifts. Many, many millions of people did/do/will operate in the gifts, but never did/do/will receive the baptism.

The apostles in the NT had the gifts, from the infilling, but before the baptism.

The baptism is a separate, distinct act of the Holy Spirit upon man. It is called a gift. It says somewhere in the NT that it was given upon God`s approval (WOW).

But it is also for Works - we see Holy Ghost and power...Holy Ghost and power...over and over in the NT.

Once we receive the baptism, we have POWER through the Holy Spirit.

There is ONE baptism - we are baptised one time - I have never found where anybody was baptised more than one time, with the Holy Spirit. But He is with us 24/7, if we ask Him to be...

Jerry4America
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:38 PM
I believe that a scriptural case can be made that 'tongues" ARE the initial sign of this "baptism. No, actually the "initial evidence" of the Baptism of the HOLY Ghost (as Charismatics like to call it) is really wind (Acts 2:2) and in the case of the Holiness people, it's really just a bunch of hot air.:lol:

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:44 PM
Everyone "gets" the Holy Spirit when they are saved. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell us-there is, however, a second work I am calling "the baptism in the Holy Spirit" that is accompianed by the ability to speak in tongues as the Spirit enables us. This baptism is adminstered by Jesus Christ. He is our baptiser in the Spirit.

When we are baptised with the Holy Spirit we will speak in tongues. Absolutely.

But, speaking in tongues is also a spiritual gift, or one of the "gifts of the Spirit". Some will speak in tongues all their lives, as a gift of the Spirit. One does not have to be baptised in the Holy Spirit in order to have this gift.

However, one does have to speak in tongues at the same TIME they receive the baptism - this is the evidence of having received.

( caps for emphasis and not yelling)

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:47 PM
Scripture spells out exactly what the sign of baptism in the Holy Spirit is... power to be witnesses. When one is baptized in the Holy Spirit they have more power to minister to others, to overcome sin, or said another way, to be his witnesses. When scripture plainly speaks about the results of being baptized, we don't have to go looking any deeper than what is said, though looking deeper can be a blessing.

Acts 1:7-8
7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
NASU

It is the receiving of power. For another biblical example, we have Jesus himself, who never spoke in tongues, yet, was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Though Paul was an example too.) But when Jesus was filled, he had power to begin his ministry of witnessing about the Father.

Speaking in tongues is often resisted because of the lack of power in people's lives that have spoken in tongues, pretended to speak in tongues, etc. Show me someone with power in their life to overcome sin and to be a witness for Christ, and I will show you someone that has been baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit.

I would also make a statement that baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred in the OT too. Just throwing that one out there.

One more thought... being filled with the Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are one and the same thing.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:47 PM
No, actually the "initial evidence" of the Baptism of the HOLY Ghost (as Charismatics like to call it) is really wind (Acts 2:2) and in the case of the Holiness people, it's really just a bunch of hot air.:lol:

but I do feel the need to tell you this:

I just read many threads on blasphemy. The concensus is that one does it when they discount/scorn/deny the Person and/or the works of the HolySpirit.

PLEASE go read those threads before you get in some kind of jeopardy, here.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:52 PM
OK so your just saying that once we get the holy spirit we will get a sign of it and know it for sure?


That depends on what you mean by "get". Being infilled with the Spirit does not necessarily have any accompanying signs, or inward or outward manifestation.

The baptism IS accompanied by speaking in tongues. Always, always, always...

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:55 PM
Semantics doesn't make any difference-the statement that there is a seperate experience after salvation-that includes speaking in tongues as it's initial evidence still stands. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

I believe that a scriptural case can be made that 'tongues" ARE the initial sign of this "baptism"(Jesus's word for this experience)--because when we are given evidence in scripture tongues are always there. I do not see a scriptural case for even one time where tongues were NOT there.

Where the baptism is received, the speaking in tongues accompanies it.

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 05:58 PM
Where the baptism is received, the speaking in tongues accompanies it.

It didn't happen when Paul or Jesus were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:04 PM
As Godsgirl says, one accompanies the other. Always, always, always.

The Bible itself says that if His Works were recorded on paper, the world could not contain them. I think this applies to His Word - and Words, also.

No one recorded every single, solitary word, or act, that went on in the Bible. I think we must use our ability to reason it out - if it says it, it is so.

Zorgblar
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:18 PM
It didn't happen when Paul or Jesus were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Im not sure.Maybe it's like menjesus said and it just wasn't recorded.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:18 PM
Make sense? yes. But fact? Ah, that would be...no.

Speaking in tongues is THE sign WHEN YOU RECEIVE the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Now, this is where the confusion comes in for many: speaking in tongues is not solely from the baptism. None of the gifts are.

Once we are saved and filled with the Spirit, we can operate in the gifts you are speaking of. We do not have to have the Holy Spirit baptism in order to be able to have and use these gifts. Many, many millions of people did/do/will operate in the gifts, but never did/do/will receive the baptism.

The apostles in the NT had the gifts, from the infilling, but before the baptism.

The baptism is a separate, distinct act of the Holy Spirit upon man. It is called a gift. It says somewhere in the NT that it was given upon God`s approval (WOW).

But it is also for Works - we see Holy Ghost and power...Holy Ghost and power...over and over in the NT.

Once we receive the baptism, we have POWER through the Holy Spirit.

There is ONE baptism - we are baptised one time - I have never found where anybody was baptised more than one time, with the Holy Spirit. But He is with us 24/7, if we ask Him to be...Why then did Paul not speak in tongues when baptized with the Spirit?

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:20 PM
As Godsgirl says, one accompanies the other. Always, always, always.

The Bible itself says that if His Works were recorded on paper, the world could not contain them. I think this applies to His Word - and Words, also.

No one recorded every single, solitary word, or act, that went on in the Bible. I think we must use our ability to reason it out - if it says it, it is so.

The problem is, you guys are taking incidents where they do speak in tongues as evidence that tongues is the only evidence, all the while ignoring two things... 1) examples where people were baptized with the Spirit and didn't speak in tongues. 2) Scripture in acts that clearly says that those who are baptized in the Spirit will have power and that is evidence.

So, how can we take examples from scripture where people did speak in tongues and require that all do, when some in scripture give no evidence they did speak in tongues?

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:23 PM
As Godsgirl says, one accompanies the other. Always, always, always.

The Bible itself says that if His Works were recorded on paper, the world could not contain them. I think this applies to His Word - and Words, also.

No one recorded every single, solitary word, or act, that went on in the Bible. I think we must use our ability to reason it out - if it says it, it is so.
So then... When Paul penned in Corinthians these words...

1 Corinthians 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. ¶And I show you a still more excellent way.


You would say that the answer is YES to these questions? Hopefully you are aware that the answer is in fact NO to these questions as Paul made clear with the analogy before.

Not all are apostles. Not all are teachers. Not all are prophets. Not all do healings. Not all speak in tongues. Not all prophecy.

Now... if ALL who are Spirit filled speak in tongues then that answer has to be YES. There really is no way to work yourself out of that corner and yet the answer to those questions are NO.

You can't get around this very simple Scriptural fact.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:24 PM
Im not sure.Maybe it's like menjesus said and it just wasn't recorded.
Nah... it's because it is wrong. ;)

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:26 PM
So then... When Paul penned in Corinthians these words...

1 Corinthians 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. ¶And I show you a still more excellent way.


You would say that the answer is YES to these questions? Hopefully you are aware that the answer is in fact NO to these questions as Paul made clear with the analogy before.

Not all are apostles. Not all are teachers. Not all are prophets. Not all do healings. Not all speak in tongues. Not all prophecy.

Now... if ALL who are Spirit filled speak in tongues then that answer has to be YES. There really is no way to work yourself out of that corner and yet the answer to those questions are NO.

You can't get around this very simple Scriptural fact.

That's not fair! Bringing a clear bible passage into the discussion....

Sadly, this is one of the most ignored passages when it comes to gifts and being filled with the Spirit.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:34 PM
That's not fair! Bringing a clear bible passage into the discussion....

Sadly, this is one of the most ignored passages when it comes to gifts and being filled with the Spirit.
Yeah well! Color me goofy like that but hey! :lol:

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:50 PM
So then... When Paul penned in Corinthians these words...

1 Corinthians 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. ¶And I show you a still more excellent way.


You would say that the answer is YES to these questions? Hopefully you are aware that the answer is in fact NO to these questions as Paul made clear with the analogy before.

Not all are apostles. Not all are teachers. Not all are prophets. Not all do healings. Not all speak in tongues. Not all prophecy.

Now... if ALL who are Spirit filled speak in tongues then that answer has to be YES. There really is no way to work yourself out of that corner and yet the answer to those questions are NO.

You can't get around this very simple Scriptural fact.


I don`t know why it doesn`t say it. But then, he may have immediately turned around and healed 35 people, and it doesnt say that, either...

As for the rest, NO, I would not say yes. I know all that - totally different subject...

Let me say it this way: the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues does not have anything to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, accompanied by speaking in tongues, other than that they are both given by the same Spirit.

A person can be baptised in the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues at the time of the baptism, yet never speak another word in tongues for the rest of their life. As I said, the baptism is a one-time experience, with the accompanying tongues. And the tongue that is spoken at baptism is NOT the gift of tongues - it is one of two parts of the baptism.

On the other hand, one who has the gift of tongues can speak them all their life yet never be baptised in the Spirit, with THAT SINGLE EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues.

These two are distinct, separate gifts. Baptism is not a Spiritual gift, but a gift, nonetheless.

The gifts are clearly listed in the Scripture. Baptism is NOT a Spiritual gift. It is a gift of the Spirit.The ability to speak in tongues for prayer, prophecy, interpretation, and edification, IS a Spiritual gift.

This is very hard to understand - it took me forever. I also assumed that they were one and the same, but they are not. What I did was completely forget about the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues while I studied the baptism. Trying to keep the two together is where the confusion came, for me.

They cannot and should not be lumped together, because they are not the same at all.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 06:54 PM
I don`t know why it doesn`t say it. But then, he may have immediately turned around and healed 35 people, and it doesnt say that, either...

As for the rest, NO, I would not say yes. I know all that - totally different subject...

Let me say it this way: the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues does not have anything to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, accompanied by speaking in tongues, other than that they are both given by the same Spirit.

A person can be baptised in the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues at the time of the baptism, yet never speak another word in tongues for the rest of their life. As I said, the baptism is a one-time experience, with the accompanying tongues. And the tongue that is spoken at baptism is NOT the gift of tongues - it is one of two parts of the baptism.

On the other hand, one who has the gift of tongues can speak them all their life yet never be baptised in the Spirit, with THAT SINGLE EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues.

These two are distinct, separate gifts. Baptism is not a Spiritual gift, but a gift, nonetheless.

The gifts are clearly listed in the Scripture. Baptism is NOT a Spiritual gift. It is a gift of the Spirit.The ability to speak in tongues for prayer, prophecy, interpretation, and edification, IS a Spiritual gift.

This is very hard to understand - it took me forever. I also assumed that they were one and the same, but they are not. What I did was completely forget about the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues while I studied the baptism. Trying to keep the two together is where the confusion came, for me.

They cannot and should not be lumped together, because they are not the same at all.Sure they are the same. Gifts of the Spirit are gifts of the Spirit. What you are doing here is trying to make your doctrine fit how you want it to fit because you won't find any such said in Scripture. Tell you what... show me where it says they are different and only happens that one time and never again... show me that and I'll teach it with you. I say that knowing this for certain. It ain't in there. That's been a teaching by many in Pentecostal circles and I know the teaching. Heard it growing up most all my life. But just because it is taught that way don't make it that way. ;)

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:09 PM
The problem is, you guys are taking incidents where they do speak in tongues as evidence that tongues is the only evidence, all the while ignoring two things... 1) examples where people were baptized with the Spirit and didn't speak in tongues. 2) Scripture in acts that clearly says that those who are baptized in the Spirit will have power and that is evidence.

So, how can we take examples from scripture where people did speak in tongues and require that all do, when some in scripture give no evidence they did speak in tongues?

#1 Who is ignoring #2? if you go back and read my posts, you will see where I brought that up.

#2 Don`t limit God! I hate to use this cliche, but many of you believe that all there is of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, is what is in the Bible. There is more - untold, unimaginable, incomprehensible - more! TO THEM and OF THEM than what you are willing to believe! I KNOW this...don`t take my word on it - God Himself will tell you, if you ask Him...

## Tell me, honestly, do you think/believe that the ONLY TIMES JESUS EVER PRAYED while He was on earth, are the times that are recorded in the Bible???

Zorgblar
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:12 PM
## Tell me, honestly, do you think/believe that the ONLY TIMES JESUS EVER PRAYED while He was on earth, are the times that are recorded in the Bible???

No.I think there is many times when jesus pryed and it wasn't recored.

Jerry4America
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:14 PM
but I do feel the need to tell you this:

I just read many threads on blasphemy. The concensus is that one does it when they discount/scorn/deny the Person and/or the works of the HolySpirit.

PLEASE go read those threads before you get in some kind of jeopardy, here. I didn't mock any attribute of the Holy Spirit, his person, or work. I mocked the blatant ignorance of holiness people who don't know what tongues really are in the Bible and suspect that gibberish is the HOLY Spirit when it ain't. That's all.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:16 PM
Yeah well! Color me goofy like that but hey! :lol:

That passage is totally out of context. It says nothing about the baptism at all. But, it is an excellent example of how people mistakenly mix the two together, when they are so separate.

Don`t mix your apples and oranges here. Sort it out. People need to know it. The church is never going to be able to utilize any gifts if it doesn`t even understand them for what they are.

But thats as good as the devil would have it, isn`t it? :(

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:23 PM
#1 Who is ignoring #2? if you go back and read my posts, you will see where I brought that up.

Everyone that says speaking in tongues is the ONLY evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit is ignoring the scripture that says having power to be his witnesses is what happens when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit.


#2 Don`t limit God! I hate to use this cliche, but many of you believe that all there is of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, is what is in the Bible. There is more - untold, unimaginable, incomprehensible - more! TO THEM and OF THEM than what you are willing to believe! I KNOW this...don`t take my word on it - God Himself will tell you, if you ask Him...

Oh, it is not I that is limiting God to tongues when it comes to evidence. Oh no! It is those that say tongues is the evidence that limits God. ;)


## Tell me, honestly, do you think/believe that the ONLY TIMES JESUS EVER PRAYED while He was on earth, are the times that are recorded in the Bible???

Nope. But if tongues was the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit, surely God would have given that evidence and recorded with both Paul and Jesus, but he didn't. Yet, the WHOLE doctrine of tongues as evidence is built on example all the while, these two examples are ignored over and over again and explained away.

Since the examples in scripture don't line up, perhaps we should take what is plainly written in Corinthians about tongues along with what is written in acts.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:38 PM
I didn't mock any attribute of the Holy Spirit, his person, or work. I mocked the blatant ignorance of holiness people who don't know what tongues really are in the Bible and suspect that gibberish is the HOLY Spirit when it ain't. That's all.Just a note. Let's not start the "it's jibberish" stuff. Honestly... that gets old and whatnot. If you can make your case without using that sort of language then make it. But please... let's not start that mess.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:39 PM
"
"Everyone that says speaking in tongues is the ONLY evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit is ignoring the scripture that says having power to be his witnesses is what happens when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit."

I never said that at all. I said, when you are baptised, you speak in tongues. Being baptised and being filled are two separate, distinct occurances.

"Oh, it is not I that is limiting God to tongues when it comes to evidence. Oh no! It is those that say tongues is the evidence that limits God. ;)"

I am confused here... I am not limiting God to ANYTHING - I know better... what I said was that tongues accompany the baptism, but there is a separate GIFT of tongues - again, two separate things.


"Nope. But if tongues was the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit, surely God would have given that evidence and recorded with both Paul and Jesus, but he didn't. Yet, the WHOLE doctrine of tongues as evidence is built on example all the while, these two examples are ignored over and over again and explained away."

Tongues is NOT the evidence of being filled - sometimes nothing "happens" when we are filled. Please go back and read all my posts - this is difficult to understand. Do not lump the two together - they are separate.

"Since the examples in scripture don't line up, perhaps we should take what is plainly written in Corinthians about tongues along with what is written in acts."

The examples in Scripture are true and infallible - it is OUR thinking, our way of looking at them, that causes confusion. All these are separate - the gift of tongues, the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism in the Spirit with accompanying tongues. But they are all from the same Spirit.

I have read these Scriptures a thousand times - and prayed over it a thousand times - it seems - but I finally got it sorted out!

I am not very articulate, and I can`t quote chapter and verse like you all can...but I am doing my best here, because this is so important to us all as christians...

We must live it for what it is, and not for what we make it out to be.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:41 PM
#1 Who is ignoring #2? if you go back and read my posts, you will see where I brought that up.

#2 Don`t limit God! I hate to use this cliche, but many of you believe that all there is of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, is what is in the Bible. There is more - untold, unimaginable, incomprehensible - more! TO THEM and OF THEM than what you are willing to believe! I KNOW this...don`t take my word on it - God Himself will tell you, if you ask Him...

## Tell me, honestly, do you think/believe that the ONLY TIMES JESUS EVER PRAYED while He was on earth, are the times that are recorded in the Bible???What I will tell you is this. The stuff that is important for our doctrine... I do believe that was recorded. Look... I've heard "there is more than what is written" used for every silly movement that has come along the pike over the years. So it isn't limiting God... and certainly not this topic... because there is plenty written and certainly enough for us to form doctrine on the matter.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:45 PM
That passage is totally out of context. It says nothing about the baptism at all. But, it is an excellent example of how people mistakenly mix the two together, when they are so separate.Um... it is totally in context because it is speaking of the gift of tongues as given by the Spirit of God.


Don`t mix your apples and oranges here. Sort it out. People need to know it. The church is never going to be able to utilize any gifts if it doesn`t even understand them for what they are.Um... not mixing anything. You are the one that has still failed to show this special tongue that is a gift but not really a gift of the Spirit because it is that special one that might only come one time and that is when a person is filled with the Spirit etc. It isn't in Scripture at all... so who's mixing what here?

There is the gift of tongues, given by the Spirit to whom the Spirit wants to give it. There isn't two different gifts of tongues. One super special one that everyone has and one that only some have. Yet that is exactly what you are saying... show me the Scripture. If it is doctrine... then it is in there.


But thats as good as the devil would have it, isn`t it? :(What the devil would have... folks thinking that "keeping God in a box" is not holding to Scripture for our doctrine. Many have done that very thing and more than not... the make a mockery out of the Lord.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 07:52 PM
""

The examples in Scripture are true and infallible - it is OUR thinking, our way of looking at them, that causes confusion. All these are separate - the gift of tongues, the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism in the Spirit with accompanying tongues. But they are all from the same Spirit.

I have read these Scriptures a thousand times - and prayed over it a thousand times - it seems - but I finally got it sorted out!

I am not very articulate, and I can`t quote chapter and verse like you all can...but I am doing my best here, because this is so important to us all as christians...

We must live it for what it is, and not for what we make it out to be.If you are going to say that these are two different tongue types... then you are going to need a passage of Scripture to show us that. I understand some folks can't recall Scripture as easily as others... but there is a reason why some of us can... we spend a whole bunch of time in it. :)

What you are saying sounds much like the teaching of many over the years... particularly some of the older preachers. But it is just wrong. The gift of tongues is the gift of tongues. There aren't different types of tongues. It is simply tongues just as interpretation is interpretation of those tongues. If there are two types.... then we need Scripture and I'm telling you why you can't find it... it ain't there. :)

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:01 PM
I am not saying that these are two different types of tongues.

What I am saying is that these are received at different times. When a person is baptised (1 and when a person gets the gift of tongues (2.

On all other counts I agree! :)

And, some people have better memories than others... :(

godsgirl
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:06 PM
Actually, speaking in tongues is the sign the Bible gives that the baptism in the Spirit has occured in our lives....

Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, and Acts 19:6-all show this to be the case.

There are at least 2 different manifestations-or uses for speaking in tongues.

The wonderful experience of praying in tongues is available to all Christians, but some have a special public ministry gift of tongues.

For futher comparison, here is a chart summarizing and contrasting the different aspects of tongues:

Public Gift of Tongues

Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
To be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4-5))
A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A22))
Not given to all believers (1 Corinthians 12:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+12%3A30)))


Personal Prayer Tongue
Spoken privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A2))
No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A28))
Edifies the individual believer (1 Corinthians 14:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4))
Can be manifested when no unbelievers are present (Acts 10:46 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+10%3A46); 19:6)
Should be desired and practiced by all Christians Mark 16:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+16%3A17); 1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5); Ephesians 6:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+6%3A18); Jude 20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+20) ).

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:09 PM
Thank you millions, Godsgirl! I am trying so hard to spell this out - it is so difficult... if you can explain it better, PLEASE do so - and thanks a million for the scriptures - it would have taken me hours to get them together!

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:16 PM
What I will tell you is this. The stuff that is important for our doctrine... I do believe that was recorded. Look... I've heard "there is more than what is written" used for every silly movement that has come along the pike over the years. So it isn't limiting God... and certainly not this topic... because there is plenty written and certainly enough for us to form doctrine on the matter.

Well, I am not talking about "every silly movement", or any one in particular, either.

This is in the bible, Jesus said it and so did others, so there it is.

Doctrine is good - but the relationship we can have with the living Holy Spirit is better.

And NOT all things are in the Bible. If they are, Jesus sure didn`t pray much, now, did He???

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:16 PM
DL Moody was a mighty man of God. Here's his testimony on being baptized with the Holy Spirit...

================================
D. L. Moody
D.L. Moody was a successful minister but by his own admission later, he lacked the power in his ministry. One day two women came up to him after a service. They said,
"We have been praying for you."
"Why don't you pray for the people?" he asked.
"Because you need the power of the Spirit," they said.
"I need the power! Why," said Mr. Moody, in relating the incident years after, "I thought I had power. I had the largest congregations in Chicago, and there were many conversions.”
Moody also said that in a sense, he was satisfied. He was in a comfort zone. But these two praying women rocked the boat. They told him that they were praying for an anointing by the Holy Spirit for D.L. to have a special service to God. He could not get this off his mind and he said, “There came a great hunger in my soul. I did not know what it was and I began to cry out to God as never before. I felt I did not want to live if I could not have this power for service”.
After the great fire of Chicago, DL was working to raise money to rebuild a tabernacle. He said his heart was not into it because he kept crying out to God to fill him. He withdrew and prayed during a visit to New York to raise money and he cried that God would fill him with His Spirit. DL describes it this way:
“Well, one day, in the city of New York -- oh, what a day! -- I cannot describe it, I seldom refer to it; it is almost too sacred an experience to name. Paul had an experience of which he never spoke for fourteen years. I can only say that God revealed Himself to me, and I had such an experience of His love that I had to ask Him to stay His hand. I went to preaching again. The sermons were not different; I did not present any new truths, and yet hundreds were converted. I would not now be placed back where I was before that blessed experience if you should give me all the world -- it would be as the small dust of the balance.”
======================================

When he preached before, many were saved. When he preached afterwards, many more were saved because his power was increased. No tongues, but power.

Here's the website I got the above from...

http://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/holyspirit/baptism_spirit1.shtml

The point being that power is what scriptures say is the evidence. Tongues are given as an example is some places but not for Paul or Christ when they were filled. Scripture doesn't record them speaking in tongues at their initial filling/baptism for either.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:21 PM
I am not saying that these are two different types of tongues.

What I am saying is that these are received at different times. When a person is baptised (1 and when a person gets the gift of tongues (2.

On all other counts I agree! :)

And, some people have better memories than others... :(But then once again I'd have to make clear that there is no actual Scripture that makes such a separation... the gifts are the gifts given as needed. If tongues is needed then the gift of tongues will be doled out as needed by the Spirit. If tongues is not needed then it won't be doled out by the Spirit. That is the very thing 1 Corinthians 12 teaches us. It also teaches us that not all have the same gifts... some are given this... some that. Fingers, toes, ankles, knees, lips, nose and mouth. All parts of the body but all with different functions that make the body a working body.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:34 PM
Personal Prayer Tongue

Look at what you do here.



No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A28)) Paul's point isn't that this is a prayer language and no interpretation is necessary. Paul's point is that if there ain't an interpreter there to interpret it to the corporate body.... then keep it to yourself. That's all. While there is no interpretation necessary in your spirit being edified... it is for the body to be edified. But when all is said and done... the TONGUES is the same. It just must be treated differently if done privately or in a corporate setting. That's the only difference. Not the "TONGUES" themselves... that is the same.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:36 PM
Brother Mark, I have complete respect for your man Moody, there. But it does NOT say he was baptised - it says he was filled. Big difference, there - but yes, being annointed can cause one to do great works, if they are NEVER baptised.

Moody described it as an awesome experience - God has revealed Himself to me, and he`s right - it IS awesome! But I never spoke in tongues at ttime, either. There are many more Works of the holy Spirit than the gifts and the baptism...believe me... :)

Since you are good at research, can you find the story of when Smith Wigglesworth received his baptism? It is a great read... and explains the differences I am speaking of.

And yes, the baptism gives power (- start a new thread)! We are to do the works Jesus did and more, AFTER we receive! POWER to heal the sick, POWER to raise the dead. HE SAID IT! And I believe this kind comes only after the baptism, although I could be wrong. ...

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:43 PM
Brother Mark, I have complete respect for your man Moody, there. But it does NOT say he was baptised - it says he was filled. Big difference, there - but yes, being annointed can cause one to do great works, if they are NEVER baptised.

Alright, let's look at what scripture says about the difference. You would agree that what happened in Acts 2 is baptism, correct? Yet look at the wording God decided to use...

Acts 2:1-4

2 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
NASU

God uses the word filled/baptized interchangeably in Acts.




Moody described it as an awesome experience - God has revealed Himself to me, and he`s right - it IS awesome! But I never spoke in tongues at ttime, either. There are many more Works of the holy Spirit than the gifts and the baptism...believe me... :)

Since you are good at research, can you find the story of when Smith Wigglesworth received his baptism? It is a great read... and explains the differences I am speaking of.

And yes, the baptism gives power (- start a new thread)! We are to do the works Jesus did and more, AFTER we receive! POWER to heal the sick, POWER to raise the dead. HE SAID IT! And I believe this kind comes only after the baptism, although I could be wrong. ...

The evidence of being baptized in the holy Spirit is power, according to our Lord Jesus Christ. He said explicitly that is what would happen when the baptism was received. However, he did not say it would necessarily be tongues, though in some instances, it is.

Acts 1:7-8
7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
NASU

In other words, the real sign that the apostles had been baptized in Acts 2 was not tongues, but the very power they received to be his witnesses. The greatest example of this is the difference in Peter before he was baptized (denied Christ 3 times) and afterwards when he boldly preached against denying Christ.

Acts 3:14

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
KJV

Scripture states pretty clearly that power to be his witnesses is the result of baptism. That power is manifested in all the gifts of the Spirit. So an evangelist, will experience more power in his evangelism, a teacher in his teaching, etc.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:49 PM
But then once again I'd have to make clear that there is no actual Scripture that makes such a separation... the gifts are the gifts given as needed. If tongues is needed then the gift of tongues will be doled out as needed by the Spirit. If tongues is not needed then it won't be doled out by the Spirit. That is the very thing 1 Corinthians 12 teaches us. It also teaches us that not all have the same gifts... some are given this... some that. Fingers, toes, ankles, knees, lips, nose and mouth. All parts of the body but all with different functions that make the body a working body.

We already discussed this in some posts back on this thread. Alright...

The spiritual gifts are spoken of in one place, the baptism is spoken of in another - THAT is the separation. Different Scriptures for them...and they are given as the Holy Spirit Wills, upon His people.You are right about that.

If you have 3-4 Bibles handy, open them to the passages about the baptism and read what it says in the different books. Turn each one to different books, different verses.

THEN do the same regarding the spiritual gifts. You might see the difference, that way.

( I had one Bible, and I flipped back & forth, back & forth, until I nearly went blind and crazy, trying to sort it out)

You are right about all the rest, indeed. There is ONE tongue, given at different times, for different reasons. Infilling, baptism (always),prayer, prophecy, edification.

Separate the baptism of the Holy Spirit - it is NOT ONE of the spiritual gifts. It is a separate, individual, one-time act by Him upon us.

mcgyver
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:52 PM
Actually, speaking in tongues is the sign the Bible gives that the baptism in the Spirit has occured in our lives....

Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, and Acts 19:6-all show this to be the case.

There are at least 2 different manifestations-or uses for speaking in tongues.

The wonderful experience of praying in tongues is available to all Christians, but some have a special public ministry gift of tongues.

For futher comparison, here is a chart summarizing and contrasting the different aspects of tongues:

Public Gift of Tongues

Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
To be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4-5))
A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A22))
Not given to all believers (1 Corinthians 12:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+12%3A30)))


Personal Prayer Tongue
Spoken privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A2))
No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A28))
Edifies the individual believer (1 Corinthians 14:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4))
Can be manifested when no unbelievers are present (Acts 10:46 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+10%3A46); 19:6)
Should be desired and practiced by all Christians Mark 16:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+16%3A17); 1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5); Ephesians 6:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+6%3A18); Jude 20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+20) ).

Nice outline....unfortunately eisegesis...Reading meaning into a text based on a theological bias....

1 Cor 12-14 teaches that:
1. The Holy Spirit gives different gifts as He wills.
2. Not ALL believers HAVE THE SAME GIFTS.
3. Prophecy is a "greater gift" ..."desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy..." (1Cor 14:1) and "he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the Church may receive edification..." (1 Cor 14:5)

In your "Personal Prayer Tongue" outline:
1. "Praying in tongues" is mentioned only in 1 Corinthians 14.
2. All the other scripture quotes refer to "Praying in the Spirit"...Not the same thing, Otherwise we've got a big problem.....

Matthew 6:5-13 says nothing about praying in tongues...and guess who the teacher is?

When His disciples came and asked: "Lord teach us how to pray", I don't remember Jesus saying: "Well, first you've got to pray in tongues...":rolleyes:

Philippians 4:6-7, 1 John 5:14-15 Have nothing to say about praying in tongues...

So bottom line...Do we let the bible determine our theology and doctrine? Or do we interpret the bible to fit our theology and doctrine?

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:53 PM
Well, I am not talking about "every silly movement", or any one in particular, either.

This is in the bible, Jesus said it and so did others, so there it is.

Doctrine is good - but the relationship we can have with the living Holy Spirit is better.

And NOT all things are in the Bible. If they are, Jesus sure didn`t pray much, now, did He???Um... The gospels are full of passages that speak of Jesus praying all the time. Even many times where he would go off by himself and pray the entire night.

Let me add too... doctrine is vital. Biblical doctrine and that doctrine comes from Scripture. Without it... you have a mess and without it coming from Scripture... you don't have biblical doctrine which creates even more a mess.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:57 PM
BrotherMark, I see the Scripture - can`t argue with that! The Bible says FILLED - BUT - were not the disciples already baptised with the Holy Spirit before the day of pentecost?

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 09:59 PM
We already discussed this in some posts back on this thread. Alright...

The spiritual gifts are spoken of in one place, the baptism is spoken of in another - THAT is the separation. Different Scriptures for them...and they are given as the Holy Spirit Wills, upon His people.You are right about that.

If you have 3-4 Bibles handy, open them to the passages about the baptism and read what it says in the different books. Turn each one to different books, different verses.

THEN do the same regarding the spiritual gifts. You might see the difference, that way.

( I had one Bible, and I flipped back & forth, back & forth, until I nearly went blind and crazy, trying to sort it out)

You are right about all the rest, indeed. There is ONE tongue, given at different times, for different reasons. Infilling, baptism (always),prayer, prophecy, edification.

Separate the baptism of the Holy Spirit - it is NOT ONE of the spiritual gifts. It is a separate, individual, one-time act by Him upon us.You are missing the point. I am not talking about the baptism of the Spirit. I am speaking of the GIFTS of the Spirit and the gift of tongues being one gift. There aren't different kinds of tongues. Tongues are tongues. The difference is not in tongues but in how one uses that gift. If in private great... that edifies your spirit. If in public and there is an interpreter then everyone else is edified as well. If there isn't one then no need to speak them because it isn't going to edify those hearing if they can't understand it.

That is the proper understanding of the gift of tongues.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 10:03 PM
mcgyver, I appreciate your efforts at doctrine, here. But my point is this: doctrine can only go so far, and doctrine varies...

The Ways and the Works of the Holy Spirit take precedence over doctrine, for me. Knowing the doctrine is good, but knowing the Ways and the Works of the Holy Spirit is better.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 10:08 PM
You are missing the point. I am not talking about the baptism of the Spirit. I am speaking of the GIFTS of the Spirit and the gift of tongues being one gift. There aren't different kinds of tongues. Tongues are tongues. The difference is not in tongues but in how one uses that gift. If in private great... that edifies your spirit. If in public and there is an interpreter then everyone else is edified as well. If there isn't one then no need to speak them because it isn't going to edify those hearing if they can't understand it.

That is the proper understanding of the gift of tongues.

ProjectPeter, I am not disagreeing with you at all on any of this. You are absolutely right.

Let me say it this way - the outward sign of a believer receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is to immediately begin speaking in tongues.

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 10:30 PM
mcgyver, I appreciate your efforts at doctrine, here. But my point is this: doctrine can only go so far, and doctrine varies...

The Ways and the Works of the Holy Spirit take precedence over doctrine, for me. Knowing the doctrine is good, but knowing the Ways and the Works of the Holy Spirit is better.If you don't have knowledge of sound doctrine... then there is no real way of knowing the ways and works of the Spirit. You would be nothing more than a sitting duck for every strange doctrine out there. That is also Scriptural teaching... :)

ProjectPeter
Feb 3rd 2008, 10:36 PM
ProjectPeter, I am not disagreeing with you at all on any of this. You are absolutely right.

Let me say it this way - the outward sign of a believer receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is to immediately begin speaking in tongues.If you are saying that latter part... then you are disagreeing with me totally. ;)

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:01 PM
If you don't have knowledge of sound doctrine... then there is no real way of knowing the ways and works of the Spirit. You would be nothing more than a sitting duck for every strange doctrine out there. That is also Scriptural teaching... :)

That is true. But if you cannot get clear understanding of a part of Scripture, it is better to follow the leading of the Spirit, than to chuck the Bible into the trash, because you can`t read it.

Put it this way - the Lord will show you things, and tell you things, even if you are confused as to the understanding of His Word.

Follow one Bible. Follow one doctrine. Follow one God.

PS I am saying it. The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it. For me, anyway. :)

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:09 PM
BrotherMark, I see the Scripture - can`t argue with that! The Bible says FILLED - BUT - were not the disciples already baptised with the Holy Spirit before the day of pentecost?

If they were, they didn't speak in tongues till the day of pentecost. ;)

But to directly answer your question, no they were not baptised with the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. Here's the verse in Acts 1 leading up to it that I have quoted previously.


Acts 1:4-9
4 And gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. "

6 And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth. "
NASB

What they had received before Pentecost was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That occurred in John 20.

John 20:21-22
21 Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NASB

When one gets saved, they receive the Holy Spirit internally. However, when one gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit comes "upon" someone.

Clifton
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:16 PM
Dear friends, what does your Bible say for Acts 2:6-12?

I'll copy something down from my Greek Parallel Bible, but in the meantime, please check those verses out. In short, let me express that the Greek word the writer used in verses 2:6,8 is "dialeto" <1258 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1258)>. People were speaking in various known languages, but despite there were languages that people did not know, they were hearing the sayings in their own language, and that was the immersion (baptism) in/with The Holy Spirit (see Acts 1:5ff). This was a "jump start" for the Gospel, because the writings were not readily available, and/or written yet, and was only heard of by word of mouth (there is a scripture reference that specifies this, but I cannot remember where it is at this moment). The Gospel was spread at a better and faster pace due to this.

As for "unknown tongues", to my knowledge, that only occurs in 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, 13, 19, 27. As I recall, it was mainly being addressed due to abuse[?].

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:27 PM
If they were, they didn't speak in tongues till the day of pentecost. ;)

But to directly answer your question, no they were not baptised with the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. Here's the verse in Acts 1 leading up to it that I have quoted previously.


Acts 1:4-9
4 And gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. "

6 And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth. "
NASB

What they had received before Pentecost was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That occurred in John 20.

John 20:21-22
21 Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NASB

When one gets saved, they receive the Holy Spirit internally. However, when one gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit comes "upon" someone.


I agree. And when they are baptised, they will speak in tongues. All good. :)

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:29 PM
If they were, they didn't speak in tongues till the day of pentecost. ;)

But to directly answer your question, no they were not baptised with the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. Here's the verse in Acts 1 leading up to it that I have quoted previously.


Acts 1:4-9
4 And gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. "

6 And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth. "
NASB

What they had received before Pentecost was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That occurred in John 20.

John 20:21-22
21 Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NASB

When one gets saved, they receive the Holy Spirit internally. However, when one gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit comes "upon" someone.


I agree. And when they are baptised, they will speak in tongues. All is good. :)

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:32 PM
I agree. And when they are baptised, they will speak in tongues. All good. :)

Except that being filled and being baptized are one and the same. And neither Christ nor Paul spoke in tongues when they were filled. :cool:

Problem... most people that teach this doctrine use examples. On the other hand, they ignore or try to explain away the examples where speaking in tongues did not occur. It's a biased reading of scripture. Basically, one is saying "I will take these examples and make a doctrine", yet scripture does not plainly state that tongues IS the evidence of filling. It does however, plainly state that tongues is not nor can be given to every believer but the Holy Spirit baptism can be. Scripture also plainly states that power is the evidence. Jesus himself, when given the opportunity, did not say "and when the baptism has come, you will receive tongues". Instead he said "When you are baptized, you will have power to be my witnesses". There is the evidence... power.

I know I am sounding like a broken record, but it bears repeating. Perhaps we won't agree.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:33 PM
Dear friends, what does your Bible say for Acts 2:6-12?

I'll copy something down from my Greek Parallel Bible, but in the meantime, please check those verses out. In short, let me express that the Greek word the writer used in verses 2:6,8 is "dialeto" <1258 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1258)>. People were speaking in various known languages, but despite their were languages that people did not know, they were hearing the sayings in their own language, and that was the immersion (baptism) in/with The Holy Spirit (see Acts 1:5ff). This was a "jump start" for the Gospel, because the writings were not readily available, and/or written yet, and was only heard of by word of mouth (there is a scripture reference that specifies this, but I cannot remember where it is at this moment). The Gospel was spread at a better and faster pace due to this.

As for "unknown tongues", to my knowledge, that only occurs in 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, 13, 19, 27. As I recall, it was mainly being addressed due to abuse[?].


No, speaking of tongues - with and without the baptism - is what makes this subject so confusing for most people.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:40 PM
As I said, when you get the baptism, you WILL know it! And you WILL speak in tongues. :)

Smith Wigglesworth: Baptism in the holy Spirit

Originally produced in a tract in November 1907 then published in 'Confidence' magazine, October 1908, p. 11, 15-16.
Later published in Redemption Tidings, February 14, 1947, p. 4

DEAR MR. & MRS. BODDY,
After 7 full days of the Glorious Presence of the Glory of God resting upon me, I send you this testimony for the Glory of God. For 3 months I have been exercised about the full Pentecost. I had the clear witness of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit 14 years ago last July, [Ed. 1894] and this brought a marvellous manifestation of God in special gifts to sick ones, and a constant living and seeking to bring others to Jesus. But from time to time when reading the Acts of the Apostles I always saw that the signs were not following as I am led to believe ought to be after a real Pentecost, according to Mark xvi. The desire more and more increased in my very inner soul, giving me a holy breathing cry after this clear manifestation. I have visited meetings at London, and Sunderland, and other places, but always knew they were not seeking Pentecosts. There seemed a great deal of letter, but very little of the spirit that would give the hungry and needy a Baptism of Fire such as would burn up distinctions and officiousness and appearance of Pride and evidences of social standing.


Bowland Street Mission

To-day I am actually living in the Acts of the Apostles’ time. I am speaking with new tongues, the Holy Fire of God’s Presence fills me till my pen moves to the glory of God, and my whole being is filled with the Presence of the Holy Ghost. Almost am I led to believe that 20 years is not too long to wait for the Holy Anointing of God the Holy Ghost.

On Friday, 25th [October 1907 Ed.] we had a special meeting at the Mission Room, Bowland Street, Bradford, and after waiting about 2 hours the Presence of God came in a wonderful way and gave me a move as at the beginning. I perfectly well understood the glow and Holy Presence. This was felt by others, also. On Saturday, I and a friend went on to Sunderland to wait for Pentecost at All Saints’, at Mr. Boddy’s Church. We had heard much about this blessed work and were encouraged, but after arriving at Sunderland found the enemy very busy discouraging believers; this did not disturb me, because I had gone with an open mind and prayed much to be clearly convinced if there was anything there that did not reveal the Glory of God that I would at once have cleared out and protested against it, but God was with me there. But I found the full Presence and Power to restore believers and to heal the sick. My experience is that this does not take place in some kinds of meetings, the reason is that, to a great measure, they do not believe the full Gospel, and it is nothing new to me to find great leaders against the tongues, and I find that, even in these times, “they cannot enter in because of their unbelief.” I praise God for Pentecost.

On Sunday morning, Oct. 26th, [Wigglesworth was mistaken – it was 27th Ed.] after waiting much on God, I went to the Salvation Army Meeting, Roker Avenue. God bless the Army. They at once gave me a welcome, and already realising His Presence in my body I longed for communion, and when after praying the Glory of God covered me. I was conscious at the same time of much the experience I believe Daniel had in his 10th chapter. After this I regained strength to kneel, and continued in this Holy Glow of God all the day still realising a mightier work to follow. I went to All Saints’, to the Communion Service, and after this was led on to wait in the Spirit, many things taking place in the waiting-meetings that continued to bring me to a hungry feeling for Holy Righteousness. At about 11 a.m., Tuesday morning, at All Saints’ Vicarage, I asked a sister to help me to the witness of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. She laid hands on me in the presence of a brother.


All Saints’ Parish Hall, Sunderland

The fire fell and burned in me till the Holy Spirit clearly revealed absolute purity before God. At this point she was called out of the room, and during her absence a marvellous revelation took place, my body became fill1 of light and Holy Presence, and in the revelation I saw an empty Cross and at the same time the Jesus I loved and adored crowned in the Glory in a Reigning Position. The glorious remembrance of these moments is beyond my expression to give-when I could not find words to express, then an irresistible Power filled me and moved my being till I found to my glorious astonishment I was speaking in other tongues clearly. After this a burning love for everybody filled my soul. I am overjoyed in giving my testimony, praying for those that fight this truth, but I am clearly given to understand that I must come out of every unbelieving element. I am already witness of signs following. Praise Him.

SMITH WIGGLESWORTH

* * *

From Stanley Frodsham's 'Smith Wigglesworth - Apostle of Faith,' chapter 5.

At the time I received the Baptism in the Spirit, a meeting was going on in the large vestry of the All Saints’ Church, and I went straight to it. The vicar of the church, Pastor Boddy, had charge and he was speaking. I knew that as yet he had not received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, and I interrupted him by saying, “Oh, please let me speak, Mr. Boddy; I have just received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.”

The place was full of people. I can’t remember what I said, but I know I made all those people extremely dissatisfied and discontented with their position. They said, “We have been rebuking this man because he was so intensely hungry, but he has come in for a few days and has received the Baptism and some of us have been waiting here for months and have not yet received.” A great hunger came upon them all. From that day God began to pour out His Spirit until in a very short while fifty had received the Baptism.

The first thing I did was to telegraph to my home saying “I have received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost and have spoken in tongues.” On the train to my home town, the Devil began questioning, “Are you going to take this to Bradford?” As regards my feelings at the moment, I had nothing to take, but the just do not live by feelings but by faith. So I shouted out on the railroad coach to everybody’s amazement, “Yes, I’m taking it!” A great joy filled me as I made this declaration, but somehow I knew that from that moment it would be a great fight all the time.

When I arrived home one of my sons said to me, “Father, have you been speaking in tongues?” I replied, “Yes, George.” “Then let’s hear you,” he said. But I could say nothing, for although I had received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, I had not received the distinct gift of tongues. That did not come until nine months later.

My son did not understand that the speaking with tongues which accompanies the receiving of the Baptism in the Spirit is not the “gift of tongues” spoken of in I Corinthians 12. The former is given as evidence that the Spirit has come in Pentecostal fullness; but there may not be any further utterance in tongues unless there is a special anointing of the Spirit. The “gift of tongues,” however, is such that the receiver may use it for prayer or praise at any time.

My wife said to me, “So you’ve been speaking with tongues, have you?” I replied, “Yes.” “Well,” she said, “It want you to understand that I am as much baptised as you are and I don’t speak in tongues.” I saw that the contest was beginning right at home. “I have been preaching for twenty years,” she continued, “and you have sat beside me on the platform, but on Sunday you will preach yourself, and I’ll see what there is in it.”

She kept her word. On Sunday she took a seat at the back of the building. We had always sat together on the platform until that day. So the contest had begun tight in the church.

There were three steps up to the platform and as I went up those three steps the Lord gave me the scripture in Isaiah 61: 1-3, “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me; because the Lord hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.” I was no preacher, but hearing the voice of my Lord speaking those words to me, I began. I cannot now remember what I said but my wife was terribly disturbed. The bench on which she sat would seat nine people and she moved about on it until she had sat on every part of it. Then she said in a voice that all around her could hear, “That’s not my Smith, Lord, that’s not my Smith!”

I was giving out the last hymn when the secretary of the mission stood up and said, “I want what our leader has received.” The strange thing was that when he was about to sit down he missed his seat and went right down on the floor. Then my eldest son arose and said he wanted what his father had and he, too, took his seat right down on the floor. In a short while there were eleven people tight on the floor of that mission. The strangest thing was that they were all laughing in the Spirit and laughing at one another. The Lord had really turned again the captivity of Zion and the mouth of His children was being filled with laughter according to the word of the Lord in Psalm 126: I, 2.

That was the beginning of a great outpouring of the Spirit where hundreds received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost and everyone of them spoke in tongues as the Spirit of God gave utterance.

menJesus
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:50 PM
No, BrotherMark, I must disagree. They are not the same. If they were, then why have two separate acts here?

Is everybody baptised in the Spirit? No.

Does everybody have the gift of speaking in tongues? No.

The Holy Spirit pours Himself out upon us as He Wills.

Why doesn`t everybody receive the baptism? I will maybe never know.

But thank God, we are all filled with the Spirit when we are saved.

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2008, 11:55 PM
No, BrotherMark, I must disagree. They are not the same. If they were, then why have two separate acts here?

Is everybody baptised in the Spirit? No.

Does everybody have the gift of speaking in tongues? No.

The Holy Spirit pours Himself out upon us as He Wills.

Why doesn`t everybody receive the baptism? I will maybe never know.

But thank God, we are all filled with the Spirit when we are saved.

Changing your mind again? Even given what Acts 2 states?

And if we get filled when we get saved, why would Paul instruct the Ephesians (who were saved) to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Also, when he did that, he said not to be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. Just like folks thought those in Acts 2 were drunk, there is a drunkeness in the Spirit that comes on those that are baptized/filled.

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 12:31 AM
I haven`t changed my mind the first time, yet. 1 = 1 = 2, not 1! :)

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (misquote?mine)

Not all who are filled, speak in tongues. If what you are thinking here is true, then what about all the billions of people who never spoke in tongues? Not all receive this gift.

If one has to speak in tongues to be filled with the Spirit, then this means that very few actually have been filled.

The Bible says that we are all filled - we ARE ALL FILLED - when we get saved.

Your evidence here is not good enough. Actually, its just wrong, period. Sorry.

I can`t find the verse in Ephesians, so that will have to wait.

But I believe Paul was admonishing them not to be filled with the cares of life, but to be filled with the Spirit. And yes, I do know all about being drunk in the Spirit. :)
That happened to me at 6:45AM, one time, at a bus stop, of all places! :) :) :)

I stand on what I said from the beginning.

Clifton
Feb 4th 2008, 12:32 AM
No, speaking of tongues - with and without the baptism - is what makes this subject so confusing for most people.

Well, I believe we can become ecstatic <1611 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1611)> and so on by the mere presence of the Lord - I've been there. In this case perhaps one might feel immersed (aka "baptized") with that presence, and/or the Holy Spirit. The Lord comes when we need Him... He might "overwhelm" (aka "baptize") you to give you some wonderful joy, or something to relax you that you are about to find out - like a mailbox filled with too many bills.;) You can be "saturated" with his love as you "immerse" yourself into the Bible (the ripple effect I guess it might be called).

Another catch to the confusion is learning what immersions/baptisms means:
to dip. Immerse, submerge for a religious purpose, to overwhelm, saturate.
Example: a person who is totally committed to their career is "immersed" in their work.

BTW, I had left you a post in the Arena Form, #1524160, referring you to a thread I long ago started to where I replied to your message at, but it has been bundled into a different thread a while ago that is not in the spirit of the OP (I was too slow in completing it I guess, OTOH, it WOULD answer the question of the OP once it is completed but I guess they are long gone now), which was called "Immersions: Their Instruments, Modes, Agents, Etc.", but you can access the second post to you by clicking here: 1524156. I have come to the conclusion that the "Immersions: Their Instruments, Modes, Agents, Etc." Study is not befitting for a number of posts in a forum/group, but instead needs to be put into a PDF file and WEB page, and posted to my domain.

As you see in Acts 2, those were "known" tongues and were needed to spread the gospel at a better pace - i.e. Hebrew Speak to a Greek Speaker, vice versa, and etc. But before your reply, please check out my previous two posts to you.;)

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 12:34 AM
Look at what you do here.

Paul's point isn't that this is a prayer language and no interpretation is necessary. Paul's point is that if there ain't an interpreter there to interpret it to the corporate body.... then keep it to yourself. That's all. While there is no interpretation necessary in your spirit being edified... it is for the body to be edified. But when all is said and done... the TONGUES is the same. It just must be treated differently if done privately or in a corporate setting. That's the only difference. Not the "TONGUES" themselves... that is the same.

I speak in tongues as prayer-there is no interpretation necessary because I am not speaking to man-but to God. Most of my "tongue speaking" is for my own private prayer time. "he who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God, indeed no one understands" 1 Cor.14:2: Now that I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit I can do this anytime I want to-just trusting that the Spirit gives me the words to say.

"If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit."1 Cor.14:14

Once in a while, the Lord uses me in the public gift of tongues-this is a distinct unction from the Holy Spirit during a worship service-where I know that the Lord wants me to speak aloud in a tongue-for me, this is not only an "inner knowing" but a real physical burning in my Spirit. This is what the Bible calls-the "gift" of tongues., and needs interpretation so that the church can be built up.

I cannot do this just because I think the church needs to hear a word or because I feel like it-it only happens rarely.

I know many, many Christians who speak in tongues as prayer and praise-but they have never been used by the Holy Spirit to speak an utterance in tongues-however, some have been used in "interpretation" or in "prophesy"

The Bible makes it plain that the 'gifts of the Spirit are for "when you come together" which is why Paul said that he prayed in tongues quite often-but, in the church, not so much.

There is no reason to believe that Paul didn't speak in tongues-since he's the one who said,,,"I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all"--and as far as Jesus is concerned-He is God-what language would He not know? Besides that, the Holy Spirit wasn't poured out in this way until Jesus was glorified. No one spoke in tongues until the baptism in the Spirit of the disciples-in Acts 2-and guess what, they ALL spoke in tongues-not one at a time, each in turn and let one interpret-like the gifts are to be used...

Paul said, "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful-so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit, I will sing with my spirit and I will sing with my understanding also"

Praying in the spirit = tongues-pretty plain from the above quote by Paul

And the scripture doesn't say we are all "filled' when we get saved--We've already given several scriptural examples where this was a seperate work--so you can't even suggest that-the Bible doesn't agree.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 12:39 AM
There is no reason to believe that Paul didn't speak in tongues-since he's the one who said,,,"I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all"--and as far as Jesus is concerned-He is God-what language would He not know? Besides that, the Holy Spirit wasn't poured out in this way until Jesus was glorified.

I believe Paul spoke in tongues. But he didn't do it when he was baptized in the Spirit. It was his gift. ;)

Jesus did have the Spirit poured out on him like a dove. He comes on us like a fire. While Jesus was God, he was also a man. He didn't know Russian. ;) He had to learn and grow just as we do.

Again, here are two examples, that when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit did not speak in tongues.

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 12:58 AM
[quote=Brother Mark;1524473]I believe Paul spoke in tongues. But he didn't do it when he was baptized in the Spirit. It was his gift. ;)


How do you know he didn't??? The Bible doesn't say.


However, contrary to what some are saying-the baptism in the Spirit cannot be the same as salvation because--Ananias, putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."--Acts 9:17,18.



Ananias acknowledged Paul's newfound faith by referring to him, not as an enemy, but as "Brother" Saul. I emphasize this point because I've heard those who argue against tongues, claim that Paul wasn't converted on the Road to Damascus, but instead received Christ three days later when Ananias laid his hands on him.

Let's stop and analyze that theory for a moment.

The Scriptures tell us spefically what Ananias did.

Ananias did not preach Paul a sermon.

He did not lead Paul in the Sinner's Prayer.

He did exactly what the Lord told him to do.

Jesus did not say, "Lead him into faith in Me."

No.

Ananias said to Paul, that the Lord:

"...has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

Wait a minute???? He was saved---before he talked to Ananias. So, no salvation does not = being baptised in the Holy Spirit.

also, as far as "tongues being Pauls gift"?

Gifts, according to Paul-are "for when you come together"--that's not when he prayed in tongues.

Jesus did have the Spirit poured out on him like a dove. He comes on us like a fire. While Jesus was God, he was also a man. He didn't know Russian. ;) He had to learn and grow just as we do.

Again, here are two examples, that when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit did not speak in tongues.

No one spoke in tongues until the day of Pentecost in Acts 2--and since tongues are a language unknown to the speaker-how could there be a language God doesn't know? So, in neither one of your 'examples" are we shown anything other than what's already been scripturally shown-"when we are given initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit-tongues are there".

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 01:14 AM
How do you know he didn't??? The Bible doesn't say. Gifts, according to Paul-are "for when you come together"--that's not when he prayed in tongues.

Glad you are willing to ask how I know he didn't. But the opposite question is just as valid... How do you know he did? ;) God didn't record it if he did. And he didn't record it for a very good reason. Why? To give us an example that speaking in tongues doesn't always accompany the baptism.


No one spoke in tongues until the day of Pentecost in Acts 2--and since tongues are a language unknown to the speaker-how could there be a language God doesn't know?There were a lot of things Jesus didn't know. He layed aside his all knowing ability when he became "lower than the angels". For this reason scripture says he grew in wisdom. Jesus actually had to learn.

Luke 2:52

52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
NASB

So if he increased in wisdom, did he know it all to begin with? Nope. Jesus, in his humanity had to learn. Jesus, as a man didn't know all the languages. ;) There was plenty Jesus didn't know. That's why he, in the power of the Spirit, often "perceived" things just as we would do today. He was exorcising the gifts of the Spirit that he was empowered with after his baptism in the Spirit.

Jerry4America
Feb 4th 2008, 04:10 AM
Ephesians 4:5, in speaking of what saves, Paul says there is ONE baptism, so if you haven't been baptized by the Spirit, then you aren't saved. That one baptism sure ain't water baptism since water can't wash away sins.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 04:14 AM
Ephesians 4:5, in speaking of what saves, Paul says there is ONE baptism, so if you haven't been baptized by the Spirit, then you aren't saved. That one baptism sure ain't water baptism since water can't wash away sins.

Can one be saved and not filled with the Spirit? If so, why the command to the Ephesians to be filled with the Spirit?

Jerry4America
Feb 4th 2008, 04:30 AM
Can one be saved and not filled with the Spirit? Absolutely. I know MANY Christians that are that way. I have to even grab the seat of my own britches sometimes and get my life straight so the Comforter can FILL my heart and life. That is your daily battle as a Christian between the old man and the new man.
If so, why the command to the Ephesians to be filled with the Spirit? Easy. They had the Holy Spirit which SEALS people to the day of redemption, but their life was filled with little sins that God wanted to have cleaned up. If the new man takes more control and Jesus is on the throne, then you are ready for the Holy Spirit to spread out in your heart and therefore FILL it. If you DON'T and let the old man take control, then the new man takes a back seat in your heart and you sit on the throne.
How do you get "filled with the Spirit?" Easy. "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are life."John 6:63 Read the Bible a lot. Let those words sink in your ears and that book will keep you from sin or sin will keep you from that book.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 04:37 AM
Absolutely. I know MANY Christians that are that way. I have to even grab the seat of my own britches sometimes and get my life straight so the Comforter can FILL my heart and life. That is your daily battle as a Christian between the old man and the new man. Easy. They had the Holy Spirit which SEALS people to the day of redemption, but their life was filled with little sins that God wanted to have cleaned up. If the new man takes more control and Jesus is on the throne, then you are ready for the Holy Spirit to spread out in your heart and therefore FILL it. If you DON'T and let the old man take control, then the new man takes a back seat in your heart and you sit on the throne.
How do you get "filled with the Spirit?" Easy. "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are life."John 6:63 Read the Bible a lot. Let those words sink in your ears and that book will keep you from sin or sin will keep you from that book.

Well, if a believer can be saved but not be filled then he can be saved and not be baptized in the Holy Spirit cause they are one and the same.

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
NASU

What occurred in Acts 2 was a filling of the Spirit. It is the same thing that is commanded in Ephesians where it says "Be filled with the Holy Spirit". In Acts 1, it is called being baptized with the holy Spirit.

Jerry4America
Feb 4th 2008, 04:47 AM
Well, if a believer can be saved but not be filled then he can be saved and not be baptized in the Holy Spirit cause they are one and the same. That's like saying that "The earth has to be flat because the earth is flat." It's a circular argument. they are NOT the same. Things that are different are not the same. I mean, come on, take this for example.

IF I have a glass of milk, does that HAVE to mean that that glass is FULL? Of course not. It has some, but the glass is NOT full. I have the Holy Spirit, because in order to have God in you, you have to have all three of the trinity. I call Jesus "Lord," which is a reference to his diety. That's God the Father. Jesus said if you have seen ME, you have seen the Father. Then, I accepted Jesus, the human Messiah who is the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit had to come in. BUT...

when I got saved, the Holy Spirit didn't HAVE all of me right away. It was like throwing a roaring lion into a cage with a wild gorilla and there has been a real FIGHT in there. When I give up sin and walk with the Lord, pray, and read his word often, then that Holy Spirit has more room to spread his legs out and enjoy the room.


Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
NASU

What occurred in Acts 2 was a filling of the Spirit. It is the same thing that is commanded in Ephesians where it says "Be filled with the Holy Spirit". In Acts 1, it is called being baptized with the holy Spirit.
Well, think about this. When would the disciples have had a chance to be baptized with the Holy Spirit when it hadn't even been sent down yet? In Acts 2, the disciples got both baptized and THEN filled. In that infancy stage of the early stage, they had to have that much happen to them right away so they could right into evangelizing the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 04:49 AM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif
That's like saying that "The earth has to be flat because the earth is flat." It's a circular argument. they are NOT the same. Things that are different are not the same. I mean, come on, take this for example.

They are identical because scripture uses the word filled and baptized interchangeably when speaking of them. In Acts 1 it's called baptized and when the event occurs, it's called filled. Also, Paul thought it worth while to mention being drunk when being filled. We know that when someone is baptized they appear drunk like in Acts 2. Oh, but wait, that is also when they were baptized. ;)


Well, think about this. When would the disciples have had a chance to be baptized with the Holy Spirit when it hadn't even been sent down yet? In Acts 2, the disciples got both baptized and THEN filled. In that infancy stage of the early stage, they had to have that much happen to them right away so they could right into evangelizing the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They got indwelt in John 20.

John 20:22
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NASU

So having already received the Holy Spirit, they were filled/baptized at Pentecost. The indwelling occurred before then.

Jerry4America
Feb 4th 2008, 04:53 AM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

They got indwelt in John 20.

John 20:22
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NASU

So having already received the Holy Spirit, they were filled/baptized at Pentecost. The indwelling occurred before then.Correct, but that wasn't BAPTISM. Saul had the indwelling, Samson had the indwelling, David had the indwelling, but that doesn't mean they were baptized into the family of God having gone straight through the blood of Christ and had it applied directly to the mercy seat so that when God looks at us, he only sees the blood of his Son and says "You're pardoned."

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 04:57 AM
Correct, but that wasn't BAPTISM. Saul had the indwelling, Samson had the indwelling, David had the indwelling, but that doesn't mean they were baptized into the family of God having gone straight through the blood of Christ and had it applied directly to the mercy seat so that when God looks at us, he only sees the blood of his Son and says "You're pardoned."

Nah. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is part of hte second covenant when God would write his laws on our heart. Samson had the Holy Spirit come upon him. THat's more like baptism. But not everyone that believed could be baptized in the Spirit back then like they can now.

Notice when the apostles received the indwelling. It was AFTER Jesus had died not before. The holy SPirit in believers is new covenant not old.

Illumined
Feb 4th 2008, 05:44 AM
What they had received before Pentecost was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That occurred in John 20.

John 20:21-22
21 Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NASB



John 7:39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&verse=39&version=31&context=verse)
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 7:39 makes it clear

Perhaps it is not as you assume

TrustGzus
Feb 4th 2008, 08:31 AM
Besides the fact that the idea that everyone should speak in tongues is an idea that is brutally assaulted by the Scriptures, I find personal experience not backing up the idea that the evidence of baptism of the H.S. is speaking in tongues.

When I was in Bible College I went to a very charismatic college. Take a guess how many students did not speak in tongues? One. Guess who that was . . . me!!!

Yet other Christians who were "baptized" in the H.S. were sleeping together, flunking Bible college and just to put it bluntly, were not walking very much with Jesus. One unmarried couple, who of course both spoke in tongues, had to quit the college because she got pregnant and they had to get jobs to support their new baby. Yet here was this "non-baptized" person, acing my classes, reading my Bible and praying every day, involved with ministry at my church, etc. I don't say this to brag. I'm just laying out facts from that time in my life when my college was teaching the same theology I see in this thread.

I wouldn't trade my "non-baptism" for their "baptism" any day of the week.

BTW, I still have never spoken in tongues.

Grace & peace to you,

Joe

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 11:25 AM
Ephesians 4:5, in speaking of what saves, Paul says there is ONE baptism, so if you haven't been baptized by the Spirit, then you aren't saved. That one baptism sure ain't water baptism since water can't wash away sins.

Thank you for the Scripture. But it does not mean what you say - it cannot. There are millions who never receive the baptism - they are not lost, they just haven`t received this separate gift. But they ARE saved.

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 11:37 AM
One more point I want to being up. When we are saved, the Spirit of the Lord comes into our hearts to dwell with us. This is what I refer to as the "filling". Aside from this, I have said all I think I can say, in way of explanation.

Others have come in, and the debate continues. This is a wonderful thread - it needs a 5-star rating! Carry on, all. We all are learning much, here. :)

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 11:44 AM
John 7:39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&verse=39&version=31&context=verse)
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 7:39 makes it clear

Perhaps it is not as you assume

When he rose again, he told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended. Later he told Thomas to thrust his hand into his side. Conclusion... he ascended between the two. What else happened? The holy Spirit was given between the two. He had his glorified body and had ascended. ;)

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 11:48 AM
One more point I want to being up. When we are saved, the Spirit of the Lord comes into our hearts to dwell with us. This is what I refer to as the "filling". Aside from this, I have said all I think I can say, in way of explanation.

But is your definition of filling biblical? Let's look at what Ephesians says.

Eph 5:15-19

15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
NASU

The command to be filled with the Spirit is given to saved folks, not lost ones. Therefore, being filled is not something that happens at salvation. It comes later. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also, we see the word filled used over and over again in Acts. Many preach that baptism of the Holy Spirit is a one time occurrence but it is not. It occurs over and over again. Let us be baptized in the Spirit and let us continue being baptized in the Spirit.

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 01:24 PM
Glad you are willing to ask how I know he didn't. But the opposite question is just as valid... How do you know he did? ;) God didn't record it if he did. And he didn't record it for a very good reason. Why? To give us an example that speaking in tongues doesn't always accompany the baptism.

I disagree with this and here's why--when we ARE given evidence, tongues are there---and we KNOW Paul spoke in tongues. So, if we are given 3 examples in scripture of people getting wet when they are baptised in water-then we are told, Paul was baptised in water-we can be assured that Paul got wet too, especially if we see him drying off with a towel a little later. Not only that-to be sure-the scripture does not say that Paul was baptised in the Holy Spirit only that he was baptised-it could have been in water.

There were a lot of things Jesus didn't know. He layed aside his all knowing ability when he became "lower than the angels". For this reason scripture says he grew in wisdom. Jesus actually had to learn.

Luke 2:52

52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
NASB

So if he increased in wisdom, did he know it all to begin with? Nope. Jesus, in his humanity had to learn. Jesus, as a man didn't know all the languages. ;) There was plenty Jesus didn't know. That's why he, in the power of the Spirit, often "perceived" things just as we would do today. He was exorcising the gifts of the Spirit that he was empowered with after his baptism in the Spirit.

The baptism in the Holy Spirit wasn't given until Jesus went to heaven, so this doesn't prove youir point either.

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 01:29 PM
One more point I want to being up. When we are saved, the Spirit of the Lord comes into our hearts to dwell with us. This is what I refer to as the "filling". Aside from this, I have said all I think I can say, in way of explanation.

Others have come in, and the debate continues. This is a wonderful thread - it needs a 5-star rating! Carry on, all. We all are learning much, here. :)


Hi menJesus, I have enjoyed this discussion. And I am glad that you are saved and the Holy Spirit dwells in you. There is, to put it simply, more that the Lord has for you. The Bible refers to this as 'the baptism in the Spirit" and after Pentecost-this experience is refered to as the "filling".

For those of you who know Spirit filled people who are in sin???? That's a pretty common thing among "Christians" not just those who are Spirit filled-the Holy Spirit baptism--given by Jesus--is given to us in all our imperfections, just like salvation is. What we do with that power is still an act of our free will.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 4th 2008, 01:47 PM
I haven't read through all the pages of this thread, so if I offer a perspective that has already been discussed, please forgive me.

When you look at this topic, one of the biggest mistakes the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have made is that they have pulled salvation and Spirit-baptism apart and made them two completely separate events. One of the biggest mistakes made by other churches is that they have merged them too much into one single event that covers everything.

When I read the book of Acts, I see that repentance, faith, baptism in water, and baptism in the Spirit follow quite quickly. In fact, we see in Acts 8, 10, and 19 that the apostles make sure the new converts are both baptized in water and the Spirit. I know many argue that this was to show that Samaritans, Gentiles, and disciples of John are also accepted by God. On the one hand I understand those arguments; on the other hand, I believe they place too much emphasis on the people groups involved. I would rather argue that they indicate that the experience is normative not only for Jews, but also for Samaritans and Gentiles. After all, nowhere is it said that these experiences are a one-time outpouring for specific people.

A more important argument remains, however, and that is regarding the fact that repentance, baptism in water, and baptism in the Spirit are inter-related. What we have done today in Pentecostal churches is we have pulled apart repentance, faith, water baptism, and Spirit-baptism. Look at Acts, though: they do all of them within as short of a time-frame as possible! Why? To give believers a proper start in life! Just like being born physically has different stages, so being born spiritually has different stages. Physically, it means a baby ultimately breathes in and starts screaming; spiritually it means a baby is baptized in the Spirit and starts making 'spiritual' sounds (note: the Hebrew and Greek word for breath and spirit is one and the same).

Thus, what we need to do is not stuff salvation and Spirit-baptism together, nor should we altogether separate them. We need to realize that being born again involves several aspects and that in order to give a believer a proper start in his or her spiritual life, they need all those aspects. So why wait? Why not have them repent, believe, baptize them in water and pray for the baptism in the Spirit all in one go?

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 01:51 PM
Hi menJesus, I have enjoyed this discussion. And I am glad that you are saved and the Holy Spirit dwells in you. There is, to put it simply, more that the Lord has for you. The Bible refers to this as 'the baptism in the Spirit" and after Pentecost-this experience is refered to as the "filling".

For those of you who know Spirit filled people who are in sin???? That's a pretty common thing among "Christians" not just those who are Spirit filled-the Holy Spirit baptism--given by Jesus--is given to us in all our imperfections, just like salvation is. What we do with that power is still an act of our free will.

Godsgirl, I have enjoyed it too. I have seen, and experienced, the Working of the Spirit in these ways and many more - otherwise, I wouldn`t even have attempted to debate the issue.

Sadly, work is calling, and I must go. But I will keep up with this thread. Its a great one!

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 01:52 PM
The baptism in the Holy Spirit wasn't given until Jesus went to heaven, so this doesn't prove youir point either.

It wasn't given to the church. But it was given to Jesus. That's what happened when he was baptized with water, he was also filled with the Spirit which is the baptism of the Spirit.

Luke 4:1-3

4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry.
NASU

This occurred during his baptism.

Matt 3:16-4:2
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, " This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

The Temptation of Jesus

4 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
NASU

Like all of us, when he was baptized in the Spirit, he received power to become a witness for God. No tongues, but lots of power.

VerticalReality
Feb 4th 2008, 02:48 PM
I agree with those who are stating that the baptism of the Spirit is what happens when one is born again and saved.

Water baptism is symbolic of being emerged and raised in the likeness of our Lord's death and resurrection.

Spirit baptism is taking the death of our spirit and raising it to life and being reborn. Can we not see the obvious similarities?

Once we are born again and baptised by His Spirit then we must be "filled" by the Spirit or have the Spirit "come upon" us in order to do His will. When the Spirit "comes upon" us or "fills" us then we are empowered to do whatever our Father would have us do . . . whether that be lay hands on someone and them be healed or speak in tongues or whatever.

mcgyver
Feb 4th 2008, 03:08 PM
:agree: This is what the bible teaches...

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 03:09 PM
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 7:39


Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit--Jesus baptises in the Spirit
The Holy Spirit baptises us into the Body of Christ-this is what happens at the moment of salvation-The Holy Spirit is our baptiser--"for by one Spirit you were all baptised into one body"...

Several scriptural examples were given of people being baptised in the Spirit after salvation..

Acts 19:6---
Acts 8-- and, in fact, Paul....
so while you do receive the indwelling Spirit at salvation, there is a definite experience after salvation the Bible calls, the "baptism IN the Spirit"--when we are given evidence of this occurance-tongues are always there. Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit and He is the same forever...

So, while the indwelling Spirit comes at salvation-the baptism in the Spirit follows the scriptural examples, happening after salvation. The world cannot receive.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 4th 2008, 03:19 PM
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 7:39

Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit--Jesus baptises in the Spirit
The Holy Spirit baptises us into the Body of Christ-this is what happens at the moment of salvation-The Holy Spirit is our baptiser--"for by one Spirit you were all baptised into one body"...

Several scriptural examples were given of people being baptised in the Spirit after salvation..

Acts 19:6---
Acts 8-- and, in fact, Paul....
so while you do receive the indwelling Spirit at salvation, there is a definite experience after salvation the Bible calls, the "baptism IN the Spirit"--when we are given evidence of this occurance-tongues are always there. Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit and He is the same forever...

So, while the indwelling Spirit comes at salvation-the baptism in the Spirit follows the scriptural examples, happening after salvation. The world cannot receive.
I'll make it even stronger and state that one of the MAJOR reasons people nowadays don't experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit is because they're not willing to truly open themselves up to EVERYTHING He wants to give, including tongues, prophecy, healing, etc.

mcgyver
Feb 4th 2008, 03:21 PM
mcgyver, I appreciate your efforts at doctrine, here. But my point is this: doctrine can only go so far, and doctrine varies...

The Ways and the Works of the Holy Spirit take precedence over doctrine, for me. Knowing the doctrine is good, but knowing the Ways and the Works of the Holy Spirit is better.

I have heard similar arguments in the past...which opens the door to all sorts of aberrant interpretation.

Here is a vital point:...The Holy Spirit will NOT give a "revelation" that is contrary to the written Word of God as contained in the Bible...

Either the Bible is fully sufficient for all matters of doctrine, faith, and practice; or it is not.

The Word of God testifies of itself: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3:16 NKJV emphasis mine)

So once again the question comes about: Do we let the Bible dictate doctrine, or do we stretch the bible to fit our doctrine? That is where "the rubber meets the road"!

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 03:25 PM
I have heard similar arguments in the past...which opens the door to all sorts of aberrant interpretation.

Here is a vital point:...The Holy Spirit will NOT give a "revelation" that is contrary to the written Word of God as contained in the Bible...

Either the Bible is fully sufficient for all matters of doctrine, faith, and practice; or it is not.

The Word of God testifies of itself: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3:16 NKJV emphasis mine)

So once again the question comes about: Do we let the Bible dictate doctrine, or do we stretch the bible to fit our doctrine? That is where "the rubber meets the road"!

Amen. The ways of God and doctrine are one and the same. They are NOT mutually exclusive. Scriptural doctrine and Holy Spirit experiences will line up with doctrine. Having said that, one may have an experience of the Holy Spirit that is extrabiblical but one cannot have a Holy Spirit experience that is unbiblical.

VerticalReality
Feb 4th 2008, 03:26 PM
I'll make it even stronger and state that one of the MAJOR reasons people nowadays don't experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit is because they're not willing to truly open themselves up to EVERYTHING He wants to give, including tongues, prophecy, healing, etc.

I've had the Lord use me to speak in tongues, prophecy, heal, and so on, but I don't agree with this theology that one is "baptised" in the Spirit later on after salvation. I believe it is blatantly clear and obvious the similarities between water baptism and Spirit baptism. Baptism is about going from death unto life. Water baptism is symbolic of us being emerged and raised in the likeness of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Spirit baptism is the actual resurrection of our spirit from death unto life. It's very obvious and clear, IMO.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 4th 2008, 03:28 PM
I've had the Lord use me to speak in tongues, prophecy, heal, and so on, but I don't agree with this theology that one is "baptised" in the Spirit later on after salvation. I believe it is blatantly clear and obvious the similarities between water baptism and Spirit baptism. Baptism is about going from death unto life. Water baptism is symbolic of the us being emerged and raised in the likeness of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Spirit baptism is the actual resurrection of our spirit from death unto life. It's very obvious and clear, IMO.
I agree with the similarities, which is exactly why I think they shouldn't be separated as much in time as they are. As we can see in the book of Acts very clearly, the two are intended to follow each other ASAP. Different, but as close together as possible.

VerticalReality
Feb 4th 2008, 03:31 PM
I agree with the similarities, which is exactly why I think they shouldn't be separated as much in time as they are. As we can see in the book of Acts very clearly, the two are intended to follow each other ASAP. Different, but as close together as possible.

What can we see clearly in Acts? What I see in Acts are folks being baptised in the Holy Spirit at salvation and then being filled with His Spirit as evidenced by supernatural manifestation.

mcgyver
Feb 4th 2008, 03:31 PM
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 7:39

Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit--Jesus baptises in the Spirit
The Holy Spirit baptises us into the Body of Christ-this is what happens at the moment of salvation-The Holy Spirit is our baptiser--"for by one Spirit you were all baptised into one body"...

Several scriptural examples were given of people being baptised in the Spirit after salvation..

Acts 19:6---
Acts 8-- and, in fact, Paul....
so while you do receive the indwelling Spirit at salvation, there is a definite experience after salvation the Bible calls, the "baptism IN the Spirit"--when we are given evidence of this occurance-tongues are always there. Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit and He is the same forever...

So, while the indwelling Spirit comes at salvation-the baptism in the Spirit follows the scriptural examples, happening after salvation. The world cannot receive.

But dearest...here's the point...The Bible does not refer to the FILLING of the Holy Spirit as BAPTISM...

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit always refers to a positional change...one of being lost to being saved...to being "born again".

You just said that yourself:


The Holy Spirit baptises us into the Body of Christ-this is what happens at the moment of salvation

In this you are absolutely (scripturally) correct...

This is the "baptism". One time, positional in nature, a work of God, apart from our will (except that we have received Christ by faith).

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 4th 2008, 03:40 PM
What can we see clearly in Acts? What I see in Acts are folks being baptised in the Holy Spirit at salvation and then being filled with His Spirit as evidenced by supernatural manifestation.
What we see in Acts is:

1. Acts 2 - Apostles who were already saved then being baptized in the Holy Spirit
2. Acts 8 - Disciples who were first baptized in water after which Peter and John came to baptize them in the Holy Spirit, showing that baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit are two different events, occurring at separate moments.
3. Acts 10 - Disciples who receive the Spirit, are sovereignly baptized in the Spirit, and then baptized into water. Apparently people needed to be convinced this was God, since the Jews were obviously reluctant to receive the Gentiles on the same foot as Jews.
4. Acts 11 - The discussion that ensued proves this. Peter had to defend his actions, but his hearers were ultimately convinced that it was of God when they heard that these people had received the Spirit in the same way as they had!! Apparently, Acts 2 had become a normative experience. One can also legitimately ask the question if all present at that time were also present in Acts 2!
5. Acts 19 - Disciples who had not ever heard of the baptism in the Holy Spirit but obviously believed in Christ were baptized into the Holy Spirit.

All these occasions show me three things:
1. Baptism in water is not the same as baptism in the Spirit, nor does one automatically occur simultaneously with the other.
2. Baptism in the Spirit is not the same as salvation, nor does one automatically occur simultaneously with the other.
3. The most ideal situation is that everything happens as close together as possible.

VerticalReality
Feb 4th 2008, 04:10 PM
What we see in Acts is:

1. Acts 2 - Apostles who were already saved then being baptized in the Holy Spirit

It doesn't say in Acts 2 that the apostles were "baptized" in the Holy Spirit.


2. Acts 8 - Disciples who were first baptized in water after which Peter and John came to baptize them in the Holy Spirit, showing that baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit are two different events, occurring at separate moments.

It doesn't say that Peter and John "baptized" them in the Holy Spirit. It says how the Holy Spirit had not "come upon" any of them. They are talking about the empowerment of the Holy Spirit here. When Peter and John prayed for them they received the "power" not the "baptism".


3. Acts 10 - Disciples who receive the Spirit, are sovereignly baptized in the Spirit, and then baptized into water. Apparently people needed to be convinced this was God, since the Jews were obviously reluctant to receive the Gentiles on the same foot as Jews.

In Acts 10 the power of the Holy Spirit comes upon the Gentiles and then they are baptized by water. This is saying nothing about being baptized in the Holy Spirit. They were baptized in the Holy Spirit upon believing.


4. Acts 11 - The discussion that ensued proves this. Peter had to defend his actions, but his hearers were ultimately convinced that it was of God when they heard that these people had received the Spirit in the same way as they had!! Apparently, Acts 2 had become a normative experience. One can also legitimately ask the question if all present at that time were also present in Acts 2!

What it proves is that those who are baptized by the Holy Spirit in this passage through faith were empowered by the Holy Spirit coming upon them as evidence of their belief and acceptance in the eyes of God, which which would serve as a wake up call to the Jews that the Gentiles were now children of God also.


5. Acts 19 - Disciples who had not ever heard of the baptism in the Holy Spirit but obviously believed in Christ were baptized into the Holy Spirit.

These had been baptized by John . . . not by Jesus. This was the baptism of repentance. It was AFTER this that they were baptized in the name of Jesus. Then, after they were baptized by the Spirit and born again, Paul laid his hands on them and they were empowered by the Spirit and tongues was the evidence of this empowerment.



All these occasions show me three things:
1. Baptism in water is not the same as baptism in the Spirit, nor does one automatically occur simultaneously with the other.


I agree.


2. Baptism in the Spirit is not the same as salvation, nor does one automatically occur simultaneously with the other.

I disagree.


3. The most ideal situation is that everything happens as close together as possible.

Why could the OT saints be empowered by the Holy Spirit, or have the Holy Spirit "come upon" them, but they were not baptized by the Holy Spirit?

mcgyver
Feb 4th 2008, 04:29 PM
What we see in Acts is:

1. Acts 2 - Apostles who were already saved then being baptized in the Holy Spirit
2. Acts 8 - Disciples who were first baptized in water after which Peter and John came to baptize them in the Holy Spirit, showing that baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit are two different events, occurring at separate moments.
3. Acts 10 - Disciples who receive the Spirit, are sovereignly baptized in the Spirit, and then baptized into water. Apparently people needed to be convinced this was God, since the Jews were obviously reluctant to receive the Gentiles on the same foot as Jews.
4. Acts 11 - The discussion that ensued proves this. Peter had to defend his actions, but his hearers were ultimately convinced that it was of God when they heard that these people had received the Spirit in the same way as they had!! Apparently, Acts 2 had become a normative experience. One can also legitimately ask the question if all present at that time were also present in Acts 2!
5. Acts 19 - Disciples who had not ever heard of the baptism in the Holy Spirit but obviously believed in Christ were baptized into the Holy Spirit.


Once again, let us go to the text.

The confusion (IMO) is from some (NOT YOU P2Z :hug:) playing "fast and loose" with the ecclesiastical term "baptism" in their teachings...

To wit: (all emphasis mine)

Acts 2:4: "And they were filled with the Holy Spirit..." Note the word "baptized" is not used.
Acts 8:14-17 "Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

Were they saved (having been baptized into the name of Jesus) prior to "receiving" the Holy Spirit? The answer (scripturally) is yes...because one could not be baptized apart from faith in Jesus Christ...therefore "baptism" refers once again to the positional change (salvation).
"Baptism" is not used to describe the "receiving" of the Holy Spirit...and this is by the authorship of the Holy Spirit...

Acts 10:44-48 is quite interesting, in that Cornelius and his family had the Holy Spirit fall upon them first, and started speaking in tongues. In this case a sign the the Jews that accompanied Peter that the gentiles had been found acceptable through Christ just as the Jews...a truly radical thought!!!
But again: "The Holy Spirit fell upon"(vs 44) "because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on..." (vs 45) and, most tellingly in vs 47: (Can anyone forbid water that these should be baptized (believer's baptism here) who have received (not the same word) the Holy Spirit just as we have?)

Act 11 and 19 are similar in the usage of "baptism" and "receiving/having received/come upon, etc." the Holy Spirit.

If the Lord, in authoring the bible, used different words to describe the experience of 1. Salvation (baptized into the body of Christ) and 2. Being filled with the Spirit, might not the differentiation in terms be important?

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 04:36 PM
But dearest...here's the point...The Bible does not refer to the FILLING of the Holy Spirit as BAPTISM...




Actually, yes the Bible does refer to the baptism in the Spirit as "filling" in fact, Jesus did---here's what He said,


Before returning to the Father, Jesus said to the Disciples "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift My Father promised, which you have heard Me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit They had spent three years with Jesus, witnessed the Resurrection, and yet they still were not ready to start their ministry. What were they lacking? They were lacking the power of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, "… you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." This was given to the believers in Acts 2:4--and there the Bible says, 'and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them"

What about us? Just like the disciples, we definitely need the Holy Spirit to empower us





MANY NAMES FOR THIS ONE EXPERIENCE
Acts 1:5 - “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."


Acts 2:4 - “All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.”


Lk. 24:49 - “I am going to send you what my Father has promised ;


but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."


IT WAS A DEFINITE EXPERIENCE - YOU CAN KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE RECEIVED IT


Lk. 24:49 - The Lord told them to wait in Jerusalem until they had received it.
Paul asked the Ephesian disciples whether or not they had received the Spirit when they believed. Acts 19:1-2 - “1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
After they did receive there was no longer any doubt.
IT IS A SEPARATE AND DISTINCT WORK FROM REGENERATION
cf. Phillip going to Samaria and many believing and being baptized in water, and the church in Jerusalem then sending Peter and John for as yet they had not had the experience of the Holy Spirit coming upon them.
Acts 8:12-16 - The Samaritan believers received the baptism with the Holy Spirit after believeng and being baptised in water
Acts 8:12-18 - “12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.”
cf. again the Ephesians in Acts 19



Should we continue to be filled-YES, a thousand times yes...(we leak) but the first time one is filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit one gets to speak in tongues as the Spirit gives us the words.

I think the idea of arguing over words-is silly-the bottom line is that the Lord has an experience for us after salvation that is our receiving of power from on high. I don't think it matters if you call it, the baptism in the Spirit or the pouring out of the Spirit, or the Filling with the Spirit or bammed with the Spirit...it is there, in scripture, it is real, and it is for all Christians who will receive. We can know that we have received it just the same way the Jewish believers knew the gentiles had...'for we heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God"

Illumined
Feb 4th 2008, 04:36 PM
John 3:34
…for God gives the spirit without limit.






You don't get His Holy Spirit in portions....you get Him all at the start and you don't leak Him out.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 04:38 PM
Actually, it says in Acts 1 they will be baptized in the Spirit. Acts 2 fulfills that. How do we know? Because in Acts 1 it says that they will receive power to be his witnesses when they are baptized. Acts 2 is the first place that actually receive the power. Also, Jesus baptized in fire and the Holy Spirit both were present in Acts 2.

In other words, the term baptized and filled, seem to me to be interchangeable in Acts. Am I am sounding like a broken record yet?

mcgyver
Feb 4th 2008, 05:08 PM
Actually, it says in Acts 1 they will be baptized in the Spirit. Acts 2 fulfills that. How do we know? Because in Acts 1 it says that they will receive power to be his witnesses when they are baptized. Acts 2 is the first place that actually receive the power. Also, Jesus baptized in fire and the Holy Spirit both were present in Acts 2.

In other words, the term baptized and filled, seem to me to be interchangeable in Acts. Am I am sounding like a broken record yet?

:lol::lol::lol:

Well, if that is the case...it is the only place in scripture that the terms would be interchangeable...

But textually, Christ promises that they would be Baptized (Acts 1:5) in a contrast to John's baptism...In Acts 2 the word "Baptism" is not used, nor is it used anywhere else in the NT to describe the "filling" of the Holy Spirit.

Why do you think that is? j/c

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 05:16 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

Well, if that is the case...it is the only place in scripture that the terms would be interchangeable...

But textually, Christ promises that they would be Baptized (Acts 1:5) in a contrast to John's baptism...In Acts 2 the word "Baptism" is not used, nor is it used anywhere else in the NT to describe the "filling" of the Holy Spirit.

Why do you think that is? j/c

Because the event described in Acts 1:5 appears to be fulfilled in Acts 2. 1:5 says that when it happens, they will have power to be his witnesses. Acts 2 was the first time they were witnesses with real power and saw people convert in masses. The number of converts when up hugely from what they were use to. Also, Jesus baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit. Both. And both were present in Acts 2. I think the baptism of the Holy Spirit of Acts 1 was fulfilled in Acts 2 but called it being filled. ;)

Just my small take on the whole issue.

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 05:18 PM
For this promse is to you, to your children and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39

Luke seems to man something different by the phrase, namely, something essentially the same as being filled with the Spirit, which is not a once-for-all event (for Luke and for Paul) but an ongoing or repeated occurrence. The evidence for this comes from the book of Acts. In Acts 1:4,5 Luke reports that Jesus, just before He ascended to the Father, told His apostles to stay in Jerusalem and wait for the promise of the Father which "you heard from me, for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." This was a clear reference to Pentecost. But when Pentecost comes in chapter two, listen to how Luke describes it:



When the day of Pentecost had come , they were all together in one place. And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Jesus promises in chapter one that they will be baptized in the Spirit and Luke describes the fulfillment of that promise in chapter two in terms of the filling of the Holy Spirit. Yet we know from Acts 11:15-17 that Luke does see Pentecost as a baptism with the Spirit. He reports there how Peter described his preaching to the gentiles in Cornelius' house:


As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' If then God gave the same gift to them as He gave to us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?


So this later outpouring of the Spirit on the Gentiles (in Acts 10:44ff) is equated with the first pentecostal outpouring and both are explained as a baptism in the Spirit. Therefore, Luke sees what happened at Pentecost as both a baptism with the Spirit and a filling with the Spirit. Since Luke refers later on to the disciples being filled again (Acts 4:8,31;13:4), but never refers to them as being baptized again with the Spirit, it seems to me that for Luke "baptism with the Spirit" refers to that initial filling by the Spirit after a person trusts in Christ.


So, yes, for the sake of clairity-baptism in the Spirit refers to the initial overflowing of the Spirit in a new believers life-this overflowing is initally evidenced by (according to scripture) speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables.

Keep on being filled with the Spirit

John146
Feb 4th 2008, 05:46 PM
That depends on what you mean by "get". Being infilled with the Spirit does not necessarily have any accompanying signs, or inward or outward manifestation.

The baptism IS accompanied by speaking in tongues. Always, always, always...

That is absolutely false. All believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit. That is how we enter into the body of Christ, the church.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13

But not all believers speak in tongues. Nowhere does it say that all who are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ must also speak in tongues. The Spirit gives different gifts to different people.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. - 1 Cor 12:7-11

ProjectPeter
Feb 4th 2008, 05:50 PM
I speak in tongues as prayer-there is no interpretation necessary because I am not speaking to man-but to God. Most of my "tongue speaking" is for my own private prayer time. "he who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God, indeed no one understands" 1 Cor.14:2: Now that I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit I can do this anytime I want to-just trusting that the Spirit gives me the words to say.

"If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit."1 Cor.14:14

Once in a while, the Lord uses me in the public gift of tongues-this is a distinct unction from the Holy Spirit during a worship service-where I know that the Lord wants me to speak aloud in a tongue-for me, this is not only an "inner knowing" but a real physical burning in my Spirit. This is what the Bible calls-the "gift" of tongues., and needs interpretation so that the church can be built up.

I cannot do this just because I think the church needs to hear a word or because I feel like it-it only happens rarely.

I know many, many Christians who speak in tongues as prayer and praise-but they have never been used by the Holy Spirit to speak an utterance in tongues-however, some have been used in "interpretation" or in "prophesy"

The Bible makes it plain that the 'gifts of the Spirit are for "when you come together" which is why Paul said that he prayed in tongues quite often-but, in the church, not so much.

There is no reason to believe that Paul didn't speak in tongues-since he's the one who said,,,"I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all"--and as far as Jesus is concerned-He is God-what language would He not know? Besides that, the Holy Spirit wasn't poured out in this way until Jesus was glorified. No one spoke in tongues until the baptism in the Spirit of the disciples-in Acts 2-and guess what, they ALL spoke in tongues-not one at a time, each in turn and let one interpret-like the gifts are to be used...

Paul said, "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful-so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit, I will sing with my spirit and I will sing with my understanding also"

Praying in the spirit = tongues-pretty plain from the above quote by Paul

And the scripture doesn't say we are all "filled' when we get saved--We've already given several scriptural examples where this was a seperate work--so you can't even suggest that-the Bible doesn't agree.And here my point because this is important. Speaking in tongues is just that. If you do it when you pray... it is not a "prayer language." It is speaking in tongues. There is no interpreter needed because it is your spirit that is being edified. But it isn't a special "prayer language." It is simply speaking in tongues while you are praying.

If you speak in tongues publicly and there is an interpreter etc... it is still the one and same speaking in tongues. Not a special public tongues. Same gift... used in different settings... with different rules in how they are used. The only thing different is the setting and the rules... the "tongues" is the same.

Clifton
Feb 4th 2008, 06:47 PM
That is absolutely false. All believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit. That is how we enter into the body of Christ, the church.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13

But not all believers speak in tongues. Nowhere does it say that all who are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ must also speak in tongues. The Spirit gives different gifts to different people.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. - 1 Cor 12:7-11

Excellent Points. There would be different gifts of course. Not all humans have speech capability - some are born mute, others can have medical problems, say, for example, someone that got throat cancer (from smoking, environmental area, or whatever), and has to talk with a device against their throat (which sounds like a robot from TV, and I am not making fun of them, but just giving an analogy), and so on. Salvation can come to any person, any time, any place, no matter what the condition(s) they are in.;) When one calls on the name Of the Lord (cp. Romans 10:13 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Romans&chapter=10&verse=13)), they are "immersed" (aka Baptized) "into Him and His Name" at that moment (I've been acquainted with Koine Greek for about 14 to 15 years now).

In regards to Acts, it was removed from the UPDV Bible, but like others here, I have several other Bibles that contain the book of Acts. For anyone referring to Acts, I posted a message requesting what does Acts 2:6-12 say in their Bibles. But, it appears those are "invisible verses", and people want to stop at v.4. So let me quote the context here to make them visible;):

Acts 2:1-12 MRC (v.13 is included in the context)

1 And in the fulfilling of the day of Shavuot, they were all together at the same place.

2 And suddenly there came from Heaven a noise like a violent, rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared to them tongues, as it were, of fire, distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

5 Now there were, dwelling in Yerushalayim, Yehudim, devout men from every nation under the Heaven,

6 and when this voice occurred, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own dialect.

7 And they were amazed and wondered, saying, "Behold, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?

8 "And how do we hear, each in our own dialect, to which we were born?

9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Yehudah and Kappadokia, Pontos and Asia,

10 "Phrugia and Pamphulia, Mitzrayim and parts of Libuei along Kuranaios, and sojourning Romans, both Yehudim and proselytes,

11 "Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our languages the magnificence of God!"

12 And they all were astounded and greatly perplexed, saying to one another, "What would this wish to be?"

In other words, a Hebrew would speak in the Greek tongue to a Greek, and vice versa, etc. etc. etc. in KNOWN dialects. This has nothing to do with "Strange Languages" (as Robertson's Word Pictures and others call). In the books of Acts, the “Strange Language”, appears only in 10:46, and 19:6. Such occurs also in 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, 13, 19, 27. As I recall, it was mainly being addressed in 1 Corinthians 14 due to abuse, so it is hard to tell the relevancy to Acts 10:46 and 19:6 with that, but there might be a relevancy.

On Acts 2:1-12 (v.13 is included in this context), what the writer of Acts used in verses 2:6,8 is "dialeto" <1258 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1258)>. People were speaking in various known languages, but despite there were languages that people did not know, they were hearing the sayings in their own language, and that was the immersion (aka "baptism") in/with The Holy Spirit (see Acts 1:5 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Acts&chapter=1&verse=5)ff). This was a "jump start" for the Gospel, because the writings were not readily available, and/or written yet, and was only heard of by word of mouth (there is a scripture reference that specifies this, but I cannot remember where it is at this moment). The Gospel was spread at a better and faster pace due to this event.

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 06:56 PM
Right-baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ---the Spirit does the baptising and the Body of Christ is what we are baptised into--we've already agreed on that point-this baptism however, is by Jesus-Jesus does the baptising and the Holy Spirit is the element.
So we have,
1. baptised by the Spirit into the body
2. baptised by Jesus in the Holy Spirit
3. baptised by another Christian in water


"He who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God-indeed no one understands, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2

prayer-speaking to God
tongue-language

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 07:00 PM
And here my point because this is important. Speaking in tongues is just that. If you do it when you pray... it is not a "prayer language." It is speaking in tongues. There is no interpreter needed because it is your spirit that is being edified. But it isn't a special "prayer language." It is simply speaking in tongues while you are praying.

If you speak in tongues publicly and there is an interpreter etc... it is still the one and same speaking in tongues. Not a special public tongues. Same gift... used in different settings... with different rules in how they are used. The only thing different is the setting and the rules... the "tongues" is the same.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here-I suppose they may be the same langauge-but there is a definite difference in unction-I have both prayed in other tongues, and given a message in tongues in the church. They are both speaking-but one takes a much more definite unction from the Holy Spirit. I can pray and praise in other tongues anytime I choose, but I cannot give a message in other tongues (the gift of tongues) just because I think it's time for one or because I choose too. And most people who are filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues as prayer are not used in this gift in the church-they may have another gift.

mcgyver
Feb 4th 2008, 07:03 PM
Because the event described in Acts 1:5 appears to be fulfilled in Acts 2. 1:5 says that when it happens, they will have power to be his witnesses. Acts 2 was the first time they were witnesses with real power and saw people convert in masses. The number of converts when up hugely from what they were use to. Also, Jesus baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit. Both. And both were present in Acts 2. I think the baptism of the Holy Spirit of Acts 1 was fulfilled in Acts 2 but called it being filled. ;)

Just my small take on the whole issue.

I can respect that! :)

I can agree in principle, that in this Particular instance, the Baptism and filling of the Holy Spirit were one in the same. After all, it was the first time it had happened...and we know that there are a lot of firsts in the book of Acts!

Here is the problem we run into though, if we use "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and "Filling of the Holy Spirit" as being the same thing..synonymously.

We end up with a theological catch-22, a conundrum for which there is no answer...follow me here:

We agree that:

1. It is by faith through grace that we are saved...Romans 10:9-10 clearly gives us the "formula" (for lack of a better term) as to that which we must do to be saved.

2. We agree that the "filling" of the Holy Spirit can be and often is a "secondary" work of Grace. That the "filling" can come and go, that we must seek the "filling" of the Holy Spirit...as you mentioned in Ephesians.

3. That by the Holy Spirit we are "baptized" into the body of Christ.

Here then comes the quandary...IF the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Filling of the Holy Spirit are synonymous:

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

We know that this has nothing to do with water baptism (the Thief on the cross settled that issue :P)

But if the filling is a secondary work of grace...and baptism is filling...but the saved at Ephesus needed to be filled...but if they weren't filled then they weren't baptized...which means they weren't saved...etc., etc., etc...and around the circle we go! :rolleyes:

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 07:09 PM
No-you forgot-"baptised by one Spirit into one body"---we ARE "baptised" into the body of Christ-at the moment of salvation-so there you go-when Peter said, "he who believes and is baptised"-he was speaking of being placed into the body of Christ.

mcgyver
Feb 4th 2008, 07:10 PM
Right-baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ---the Spirit does the baptising and the Body of Christ is what we are baptised into--we've already agreed on that point-this baptism however, is by Jesus-Jesus does the baptising and the Holy Spirit is the element.
So we have,
1. baptised by the Spirit into the body
2. baptised by Jesus in the Holy Spirit
3. baptised by another Christian in water

One big problem here....God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, each with a different ministry working harmoniously in the redemptive plan for mankind, Yet of ONE ESSENCE and INDIVISIBLY ONE GOD.

God=Jesus=Holy Spirit=Jesus=God=Holy Spirit etc....Item #2 above either makes absolutely no sense, or is modalism...

Mark F
Feb 4th 2008, 07:12 PM
VerticalReality, mcgyver, Jerry4america, Clifton, and Illumined, BrotherMark, and ProjectPeter,

All well said.



This smells of some form of gnosticism, if I don't have this special thing, this special knowledge I am not a fully spiritual person. What did they call it, the charisma or something?


John 3:33-35;

33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand."

Doesn't this passage tell us something?


When I was born from above, (born again) I received all the Holy Spirit you can all it a baptism, but it is a one time event, as we learn obedience we learn to walk in the Spirit, to yeild to the Spirit, not to grieve the Spirit.

Being kept full is the part that is related to our sanctification. I have ALL the Spirit but I am not always in a right adjustment to Him.

godsgirl
Feb 4th 2008, 07:15 PM
One big problem here....God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, each with a different ministry working harmoniously in the redemptive plan for mankind, Yet of ONE ESSENCE and INDIVISIBLY ONE GOD.

God=Jesus=Holy Spirit=Jesus=God=Holy Spirit etc....Item #2 above either makes absolutely no sense, or is modalism...


You said, Jesus baptising believers with the Holy Spirit "makes absolutly no sense"?

The Bible says.... 'After me comes One who is mightier than I, and I am not even fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.'" (Mark 1:1-8)

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 07:30 PM
I can respect that! :)

I can agree in principle, that in this Particular instance, the Baptism and filling of the Holy Spirit were one in the same. After all, it was the first time it had happened...and we know that there are a lot of firsts in the book of Acts!

Here is the problem we run into though, if we use "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and "Filling of the Holy Spirit" as being the same thing..synonymously.

We end up with a theological catch-22, a conundrum for which there is no answer...follow me here:

We agree that:

1. It is by faith through grace that we are saved...Romans 10:9-10 clearly gives us the "formula" (for lack of a better term) as to that which we must do to be saved.

2. We agree that the "filling" of the Holy Spirit can be and often is a "secondary" work of Grace. That the "filling" can come and go, that we must seek the "filling" of the Holy Spirit...as you mentioned in Ephesians.

3. That by the Holy Spirit we are "baptized" into the body of Christ.

Here then comes the quandary...IF the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Filling of the Holy Spirit are synonymous:

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

We know that this has nothing to do with water baptism (the Thief on the cross settled that issue :P)

But if the filling is a secondary work of grace...and baptism is filling...but the saved at Ephesus needed to be filled...but if they weren't filled then they weren't baptized...which means they weren't saved...etc., etc., etc...and around the circle we go! :rolleyes:

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not salvation. Being indwelt of the Holy Spirit which happened for the apostles in John 20, occurs at salvation. In other words, I see baptism of the holy Spirit as different than the indwelling. Just as the indwelling for the apostles occurred before the filling/baptism of the holy Spirit, so it does with us too.

Either way, we agree that filling is a separate thing from salvation that occurs after salvation and can occur over and over again.

Mark F
Feb 4th 2008, 08:01 PM
Brother Mark,


Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not salvation. Being indwelt of the Holy Spirit which happened for the apostles in John 20, occurs at salvation. In other words, I see baptism of the holy Spirit as different than the indwelling. Just as the indwelling for the apostles occurred before the filling/baptism of the holy Spirit, so it does with us too.

Either way, we agree that filling is a separate thing from salvation that occurs after salvation and can occur over and over again.

We recieve all the Spirit at salvation, just as we are placed positionally as joint heirs with Christ and a multitude of other things, but this bapstism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is something I know nothing about, it seems as though that it is quite a difficult thing to nail down, I seem to not understand how I could be baptized into the Holy Spirit, He is already in me.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 08:07 PM
Brother Mark,



We recieve all the Spirit at salvation, just as we are placed positionally as joint heirs with Christ and a multitude of other things, but this bapstism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is something I know nothing about, it seems as though that it is quite a difficult thing to nail down, I seem to not understand how I could be baptized into the Holy Spirit, He is already in me.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not when he goes in you. It's more when you go into Him. Or said another way, the Holy Spirit comes "upon" you.

That's why Paul told the Ephesians to be "filled" with the Holy Spirit. While God is in us, there is still something more that happens with the Spirit and it should be a continuous thing. We are leaky unlike Christ. So we need refilling often.

The apostles were filled many times in Acts. Paul made it a command in Ephesians.

VerticalReality
Feb 4th 2008, 08:21 PM
Maybe my fallible mind is getting in the way here, but this thought process doesn't make sense to me. We are "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit but we still need to be "filled" by the Holy Spirit? Does this teaching make absolutely no sense to anyone else here or am I the only one?

If the Holy Spirit is already indwelling within me, then why do I need to be "filled" with more of the Holy Spirit? This doctrine is basically stating that I have the Holy Spirit within me, but I only have a little bit of the Holy Spirit in me, so now I need another "filling" of the Holy Spirit in me.

Or we have this "leaky Christian" doctrine that attempts to suggest that the Holy Spirit oozes out of us or something and now I need to ask for another filling. Is He indwelt or not? Do I need to ask for more power if it's needed? Sure . . . I can see that because it's as the Spirit wills where that is used. But this other teaching is making no sense to me.

I don't get it.

mcgyver
Feb 4th 2008, 08:24 PM
You said, Jesus baptising believers with the Holy Spirit "makes absolutly no sense"?

The Bible says.... 'After me comes One who is mightier than I, and I am not even fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.'" (Mark 1:1-8)

You are correct!!! I was distracted and mis-read your post...sorry :hug:

awestruckchild
Feb 4th 2008, 09:14 PM
I did not receive the Holy Spirit baptism until a few weeks after I read the gospel, saw its truth, and prayed for forgiveness.
Or, at the very least, I was not AWARE of the Holy Spirit in me, until a few weeks later.
Then, it took another few weeks to realize that what I was feeling was "His voice." I knew it was HIM from the second I felt it, just didn't understand that this was what I was to know as "His voice."
But I am not willing to say that it has to happen that same exact way for everyone because I just don't know that.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 09:38 PM
Maybe my fallible mind is getting in the way here, but this thought process doesn't make sense to me. We are "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit but we still need to be "filled" by the Holy Spirit? Does this teaching make absolutely no sense to anyone else here or am I the only one?

Was the following written to believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

Eph 5:18-19
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
NASB

These are believers that already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Paul told them to "be filled".

In Acts, we see where Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit multiple times.

VerticalReality
Feb 4th 2008, 10:09 PM
Was the following written to believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

Eph 5:18-19
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
NASB

These are believers that already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Paul told them to "be filled".

In Acts, we see where Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit multiple times.

So, you interpret this passage of Scripture as meaning that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit but He then leaks out of us and we have to ask Him to indwell us again? Is that your interpretation?

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 10:37 PM
So, you interpret this passage of Scripture as meaning that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit but He then leaks out of us and we have to ask Him to indwell us again? Is that your interpretation?

Nope. I am saying there is a difference between being indwelt and filled.

Mark F
Feb 4th 2008, 11:44 PM
Ephesians 5:18-21;
15 "See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God."


Paul is contrasting the understanding of pegan religions that believed drunkeness was a way to have some spiritual experience, we have heard the same today. If someone is addicted to LSD they would be filled by it, they would obey it etc., etc. Certainly we can understand that.


Colosians 3:16-17;
16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."


Look at the parallel of these two verses, to be filled with the Holy spirit is one in the same as the Word of Christ dwelling in us.

I think it an error to say that the baptism of the Spirit is any different than the baptism we receive when we are saved. Someone out there who is an expert on Greek should see if being "baptised in the Holy Spirit" is in the imperative. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, but not to be baptised in the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13;
12 "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

To say that you have recieved something different than me is not found in the New Testament.

VerticalReality
Feb 5th 2008, 12:40 AM
Nope. I am saying there is a difference between being indwelt and filled.

Could you explain the difference without a lot of Christianese? I mean just thinking about the actual meaning of both terms, this teaching really doesn't make sense to me. The bible teaches that we have the Holy Spirit in us all the time. Yet this teaching of yours here is saying that the Holy Spirit is constantly leaking out of us and we need to ask Him to indwell us again and again and again. I don't get it. Are we indwelt by His Spirit all the time or does it drain out after some undetermined amount of time? Is it His Spirit that is "filling" us or are we being "filled" with power to do His will?

Clifton
Feb 5th 2008, 01:02 AM
...I think it an error to say that the baptism of the Spirit is any different than the baptism we receive when we are saved. Someone out there who is an expert on Greek should see if being "baptised in the Holy Spirit" is in the imperative. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, but not to be baptised in the Spirit.

I'm working on this right now - the total of imperative verbs only occur two times, Acts 2:38, 22:16. I have discovered the verb in 22:16 is in the MIDDLE Voice, which means the person is to perform the act/thing themselves, and it is in the 2nd Person Singular. Because the verse states "wash away" I had assumed the element of the immersion was water. But if that is the case, one could just take a bath. I need to consult my Greek Dictionary on 22:16 - it appears instead of being a physical immersion (aka baptism) it must be a spiritual immersion, looking more like telling a person to get "born from above", aka "Born Again... or take a bath.:D

I will follow-up on this tonight - I want to be able to provide you and others links to confirm this.:)

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 01:12 AM
Could you explain the difference without a lot of Christianese? I mean just thinking about the actual meaning of both terms, this teaching really doesn't make sense to me. The bible teaches that we have the Holy Spirit in us all the time. Yet this teaching of yours here is saying that the Holy Spirit is constantly leaking out of us and we need to ask Him to indwell us again and again and again. I don't get it. Are we indwelt by His Spirit all the time or does it drain out after some undetermined amount of time? Is it His Spirit that is "filling" us or are we being "filled" with power to do His will?

Either way, you got the same problem. Ephesians tells us to be filled and that is a command to believers where the Holy Spirit resides.

Take a look at what scripture says here about baptism.

Acts 1:4-8
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
NASU

Being baptized in the Holy Spirit is when the Spirit comes "upon" you. They already had the Holy Spirit indwelt in them in John 20.

Maybe an example will help. Our body is a container like a cup. Paul said he had poured himself out as a drink offering. Say the cup was made of glass. Now, not only could the cup be made of glass, but it could still be empty. Though the glass was inside the cup itself. The ring, or material of the cup, has glass in it. Then, I could take that cup and sink it in glass particles and it would come up filled with glass. I just baptized this cup in particles of glass and now it not only has glass indwelt in that which it is made, but it has been filled with glass because it was baptized in glass particles and was filled up with it.

Does that make sense? The rim part of the cup is glass. Now instead of putting coffee in the glass, I can put glass particles in it. So now it is both indwelt and filled. The indwelling doesn't leave. But the filling can.

Clifton
Feb 5th 2008, 01:40 AM
I think it an error to say that the baptism of the Spirit is any different than the baptism we receive when we are saved. Someone out there who is an expert on Greek should see if being "baptised in the Holy Spirit" is in the imperative. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, but not to be baptised in the Spirit.

Okay, I'll attach some notes to a new post later regarding Acts 2:38, 22:16 that I believe will be in the spirit of the the OP of this thread and in understanding;

But for now, to answer your question at this point I see no DIRECT imperative to be "baptised in the Holy Spirit". In Acts 2:38, the verb is imperative but is in the INDIRECT imperative and does not have the same force as the verb “to repent” which is in the DIRECT imperative. It is in the PASSIVE voice in that verse, which means the person is the recipient of the action, and someone else is performing the action. So, either it is referring to water immersion performed by an agent (person), or the laying of hands of the person to receive the Holy Spirit. While contexts are vital, it might be difficult at times since there are various elements of immersions in Acts.

But anyway, as I said in the previous post, there are only 2 occurrences of an imperative form, and I need to add, that this means the WHOLE New Testament of the Byzantine-Majority Greek New Testament.

As for Acts 22:16, it looks like a spiritual washing as opposed to a physical washing - the living waters that Christ provides (John 4:10-15) and / or the blood of Christ (spiritually).

Mark F
Feb 5th 2008, 01:49 AM
Brother Mark,

What you are using as an example is a unique situation, Christ was still here on earth and the Comforter was yet to come, this cannot be applied to us. the Church was "born" on Penticost, in that situation there must be a uniqeness to that example we should observe.

We must recognize that all are baptized into the Spirit the moment they believe, they recieve all of Him. The difference is our yeildedness to His will.

1 Corinthians 2:9-3:3;

9 "But as it is written:

“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?"


These people were saved, yet were not spiritually minded, they had not learned that they will grow spiritually by a constant state of dependence on God, they still processed things in a carnal way. When we recognize we have the mind of Christ and that we have the Holy Spirit we learn to allow our wills to be subject to His.

Paul in the above passage said "we" have received (excluding none), it would seem that he would have said now you all have dwelling in you the Holy Spirit, but those of you who get baptized into the Holy Spirit will come to a greater level of truth than those who only have the indwelling Spirit.

Teke
Feb 5th 2008, 01:59 AM
Godsgirl wrote:[Theologians often confuse the baptism in the Holy Spirit with salvation. They often regard these two experiences as being the same. This confuses believers. They incorrectly assume that salvation is the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not teach this.]

Theologians aside; In Joh 3:3 Jesus himself said that one must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God.
The question then is, "What specifically is Jesus referring to when He says; Born again"? Does He leave it open to interpretation? No, He is very clear on the requirement.

Jhn 3:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=3&version=kjv#3)Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In John 3:5, Jesus further explains exactly what He is talking about. Obviously, the birth by water is how we come into the world in the first place, the second form of rebirth is the key to where we go in the next life.

[The Bible clearly teaches that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from salvation and comes after a person is saved, although it can occur at the time of salvation]

You say that Salvation and baptism of the Spirit are not the same thing, it seems that Jesus does not agree with you.
He does not say that if you believe in me without being baptised in the Spirit, you will still see the Knigdom of Heaven, instead, He is emphatic about the requirement of baptism in the Spirit.

Jhn 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=5&version=kjv#5)Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

When Nicodemus questioned this requirement, Jesus said in John 3:7

Jhn 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=7&version=kjv#7)Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Baptism of the Spirit equates to a very specific life altering event. When one is beborn and baptised in the Spirit, their old self dies along side Jesus as He died on the cross so that we could be forgiven of our past sins. The Rebirth is the emergence of our New self, as Jesus emerged from His death on the 3rd day.
A person who has been truly baptised in the Spirit is not the same person that they were before. The Old man, as the Bible refers to us before we are reborn in the the Spirit, follows the ways of the world and the result is a man living in sin in a sinful world.
The only way for us to escape, or be Saved ,or receive our Salvation, is through the way that Jesus provided for us. Jesus said," I am the Way, no man shall enter Heaven except through me."
When one is reborn and baptised in the Spirit, as Jesus said in John 3:3, we follow the Holy Spirit as He leads us through the "Valley of the Shadow of Death". Many believe that this is the passage from this life to the next, this is not the case. The Valley of the Shadow of Death is the physical world that we all must live in while we are alive. Those that chose to walk through it alone will not receive the Salvation that awaits all those who have turned from their Old ways and instead, been baptised in the Holy Spirit as He leads us from the worldly Temptation that is everywhere.

Psalms 23:1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He is our shepherd after we are saved and Jesus made it clear what is required for us to receive our salvation.

2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Once we are saved, the world no longer holds the power over us that it once did. The Grace and peace that this verse is referring to comes after we are reborn in the Spirit. It is unattainable on our own.

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Speaking from personal experience, my troubled Soul was restored after I was truly reborn and baptised in the spirit, not when I was water baptised, 40 years earlier. Why there is a difference, I can not say, I just know when I was truly reborn, and that was when my old Man died and my New man emerged from the grave where my Old man was laid to rest.

How does He lead me in the paths of righteousness for His mane's sakes after our rebirth in the Spirit? The verse makes it clear that He does, and Jesus confirms it in Matthew 6:13 "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:"
So there must be a way. This is where most people falter due to a lack of understanding as the Parable of the seeds points out.
Have you ever asked yourself how does the Holy Spirit lead us not into temptation? When you are tempted to sin, what happens? Your conscience lets you know that it is wrong "if" you are attuned to it and "if" you have not progressively hidden everything you do from the guilt that you should receive from it whenever you do commit a sin. Again, I know what I am talking about here and others do too, if they take a long hard look at their past where the commision of sin was/is concerned.
The trap for the lost is that they have been so successful at hiding from their conscience whenever they do things that they want to do, but need a way to avoid a guilty conscience afterwards, they become blind to the guidance that they once received from it as it shed the light of truth on what they were doing. Their conscience is not clear. Jesus referred to it this way;
John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that [the] light [of truth] is come into the world, and men loved darkness [the absence of a guilty conscience] rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Sound familiar?
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Reproved? What is the definition of reproved? According to Random House; 1. scold, reprimand, upbraid, chide, reprehend, admonish.

Sounds like a guilty conscience to me, how about you?
So the light of truth through a clear conscience, lets us know when we are doing something bad and punishes us when we do, unless we decide to hide what we do from it.
But once we are saved, and we do the right thing, how do we know?

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Our clear conscience is just as capable of rewarding us with good feelings as it is at punishing our bad behavior.
The Human body is the most complex organism ever created...every part of it has a very specific function and nothing that was needed was excluded and nothing that was not necessary was included, so why would God create within us a conscience that does everything that the Bible says the Holy Spirit will do for those who walk with a clear conscience which has been purged of all out past accumulated guilt, if it were not a vital part of how the Holy Spirit communicates Gods's laws and guidance to us? The answer is, "He would not." The guidance and comfort that we receive from the Holy Spirit through our cleared conscience can be described like this;
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit doesn't speak to us in any language known to man, His voice is like the wind, we feel it and preceive it but we can not put our hands on it, if have cleared our conscience of the past guilt that we spent a lifetime avoiding by excusing it all away.
To repent is to admit that we will not do something any longer and that we understand that it was wrong. Accepting internal excuses in order to avoid a guilty conscience after we commit a sin is wrong and the baptised in the Spirit-New man, knows this and will not go back to that former sinful, worldly way of living.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

The Holy Spirit is always there to guide us from making bad decisions and He also prompts us to do good things "if" we keep our conscience clear and "if" we do not return to our old ways of applying excuses to sinful behavior in order to justify away the guilt that we know we would otherwise receive from our conscience.
"...thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. " How can a rod comfort us? A child might not agree when we use it on them whenever they do something bad, but the result is that they stop doing what they were doing and they understand that we do it out of our love and concern for them. God does the same thing whenever a Christian does something they should not do...and they will. The consequence of living with a clear conscience is that whenever we do something wrong and we refuse to apply an internal excuse to it, we will get a guilty conscience afterwards. This is the Holy Spirits way of chastising the saved. I welcome a guilty conscience when I do wrong because it lets me know that the Holy Spirit is watching and guiding me.
5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

In verse 6, He says, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:"
All the days of my life, both in this world and the next.

Eternal death as referred to in the Scrpitures, is not the death of our physical body, it is the death of our Soul. The life that Salvation brings is the survival of our Soul after we experience the physical death that all must undergo. For those who chose to walk through this Valley of the Shadow of Death alone and without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, their life will be short indeed and their death eternal.

God Bless you,

Michael

From what you've posted here, it sounds like your equating your conscience (Gr. logismoi) with your salvation. I'd agree with that. And if your equating your "baptism of the Spirit" with your response to God's grace that He has always been giving you, I agree. They are both related.

The death of the soul, I disagree. The soul is immortal.:)

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 01:59 AM
Paul in the above passage said "we" have received (excluding none), it would seem that he would have said now you all have dwelling in you the Holy Spirit, but those of you who get baptized into the Holy Spirit will come to a greater level of truth than those who only have the indwelling Spirit.


Not greater level of truth, instead greater level of power.

Mark F
Feb 5th 2008, 02:08 AM
Brother Mark,

Yes to both, truth and power. We know that babes in Christ have a lesser understanding of spiritual truth, and lesser power. It would make sense that as we grow in the Lord that these would increase on a parallel, so to speak.

I think for the most part we are on the same page as I wrote earlier today.

Clifton
Feb 5th 2008, 02:47 AM
Baptist grammarian A. T. Robertson (of Robertson’s Word Pictures which is available for Online Bible and e-Sword, and FREE) was quite a Greek Expert, and he knew some finer points that the rest of us generally do not know. While my Greek Dictionary is better, more analytical and exegetical, etc., still, Robertson’s works “provides and aids us” in some finer points. I’ll provide Robertson’s exegetical analysis for Acts 22:16 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Acts&chapter=22&verse=16) in a moment;

But first I will note again myself that in Acts 2:38 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Acts&chapter=2&verse=38), the verb is imperative but is in the INDIRECT imperative and does not have the same force as the verb “to repent” which is in the DIRECT imperative. Further explaining In other words, “repent” is a DIRECT command. The INDIRECT imperative “be baptized” (not “get baptized”) is lesser than a DIRECT command but is stronger than just a wish. Here, if both the commands are followed, they were going receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (which does not imply one getting salvation “Secured”, but already having it. The text for this verse from Robertson is longer and more technical, but I will provide it upon request if anyone desires – some of you may already have it in your Bible Software. Some of what is said there is also said for Acts 22:16 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Acts&chapter=22&verse=16);

Now, here is Robertson’s Word Pictures on Acts 22:16 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Acts&chapter=22&verse=16);

By baptized (βαπτισαι). First aorist middle (causative), not passive, Get thyself baptized (Robertson, Grammar, p. 808). Cf. #1Co 10:2. Submit yourself to baptism. So as to απολουσαι, Get washed off as in #1Co 6:11. It is possible, as in #Ac 2:38, to take these words as teaching baptismal remission or salvation by means of baptism, but to do so is in my opinion a complete subversion of Paul’s vivid and picturesque language. As in #Ro 6:4-6 where baptism is the picture of death, burial and resurrection, so here baptism pictures the change that had already taken place when Paul surrendered to Jesus on the way (verse #10). Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ.

You can also find this text of Robertson’s quoted at:
http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR247.htm
:note: Note: I am not acquainted with this domain or have any knowledge of it at this time, other then seeing the Robertson quote (by via Google Phrase Search).

The text in Acts 22:16 appears to be something happening right on the spot, just as Paul did in verse 10, and the repentant thief on the cross crucified along with Christ did. The better saying, is that it is immersion/baptism "into (εις) the Lord and His Name" (as the element of the spiritual immersion) and salvation that are one in the same (cp, Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:14-18)

The two imperative verbs referred to herewith in, are as follows, with grammar breakdown and morphological codes:

βαπτισθητω (Acts 2:38)
V-APM-3S
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist
Voice: Passive <- The person is the recipient of the action
Mood: iMperative {sic: indirect}
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

Βαπτισαι (Acts 22:16)
V-AMM-2S
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist
Voice: Middle <- The person performs the action their self.
Mood: iMperative
Person: second [you]
Number: Singular

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 03:19 AM
Brother Mark,

Yes to both, truth and power. We know that babes in Christ have a lesser understanding of spiritual truth, and lesser power. It would make sense that as we grow in the Lord that these would increase on a parallel, so to speak.

I think for the most part we are on the same page as I wrote earlier today.

Except that I believe there is a second experience and a third and forth, etc. filling/baptism of the Holy Spirit that is a discreet occurrence. It's not simply reading the bible more as the Pharisees did, it is a discreet happening. Though I think too it can be a gradual thing as we grow in the Lord.

menJesus
Feb 5th 2008, 10:21 AM
Not greater level of truth, instead greater level of power.

Just popped in to see how it was going - still a great debate!

BrotherMark, you are doing wonderfully well in working through it all. :)

Carry on, all.

godsgirl
Feb 5th 2008, 01:22 PM
So after salvation, where we agree-the Holy Spirit indwells believers, one should have a specific, easily discernable event-where the Holy Spirit overflows our life-Jesus called this the baptism with the Holy Spirit-it is meant only for Christians-and isn't "automatic" at salvation-but "can" accompany salvation like the gentile believers in Acts 10-my friend, Chris, was baptised in the Spirit in this way-as she was praying at the altar for salvation, she found herself praying in a language she did not know-having never heard of, the baptism in the Holy Spirit-or speaking in tongues. After that, we need to keep on being filled with the Spirit--ie yeilding to His love and power.

By the way, in scripture this was not a 'discreet" experience-those around and the individuals themselves KNEW this had occured.

Buck shot
Feb 5th 2008, 08:21 PM
I just spent the last few hours reading this thread and "WOW" lots of info!


Actually, speaking in tongues is the sign the Bible gives that the baptism in the Spirit has occured in our lives....

Public Gift of Tongues

Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))


There are a few things in this post I would like you to clearify but th one that I wonder about most is this. Do you place an iterpretation of someone speaking in tongue equal to scripture?


That is true. But if you cannot get clear understanding of a part of Scripture, it is better to follow the leading of the Spirit, than to chuck the Bible into the trash, because you can`t read it.

Put it this way - the Lord will show you things, and tell you things, even if you are confused as to the understanding of His Word.

Follow one Bible. Follow one doctrine. Follow one God.

PS I am saying it. The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it. For me, anyway. :)

I do agree with the 3 follows. I even like the way you put it but...
You seem to contradict yourself. Do you follow the Bible or do you follow the leading of the spirit? You can always read the Bible and if you don't understand something, it's time to pray about it or just realize it may be something you will never nail down but I would never agree to go with a leading as doctrine. I believe God will open our understanding if we put the time into prayer and study.


I'll make it even stronger and state that one of the MAJOR reasons people nowadays don't experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit is because they're not willing to truly open themselves up to EVERYTHING He wants to give, including tongues, prophecy, healing, etc.

I believe from some of your other posts that your definition of "experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit" is to speak in tongues. If I am wrong please forgive me. If I am right I disagree with you. Myself and many others have opened ourselves to the point of quiting our jobs to go into the field. We came to a point when we said "I am here, use me in whatever fashion you will". We opened our families to new areas that we went blindly into. We not only opened ourselves to what He wanted to give but also what He wanted us to do without. I know many missionaries and none (nor myself or my preaching son) have recieved the gift of tongues. I want to believe that it can still happen today (and AM NOT SAYING THAT IT CAN'T) but I have not seen it in a way that glorified God yet.

Since the movement started in the early 1900's, does anyone have referances from 100 A.D. - 1800 A.D. teaching tongues being used? I would really like to know.


1 Cor13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I believe that which is perfect is His Word (the Bible) We should live by faith and trust Him without "proofs"


Actually, it says in Acts 1 they will be baptized in the Spirit. Acts 2 fulfills that. How do we know? Because in Acts 1 it says that they will receive power to be his witnesses when they are baptized. Acts 2 is the first place that actually receive the power. Also, Jesus baptized in fire and the Holy Spirit both were present in Acts 2.

In other words, the term baptized and filled, seem to me to be interchangeable in Acts. Am I am sounding like a broken record yet?

About the filling. Could it be (using the glass) that the filling of the Holy Ghost is just that? We are as children (glasses) and we are being filled. We are told that we must have milk before meat (1 Cor 3:1-3). We must be saved and have been baptized into the body before we can receive even milk. But as starting with milk and growing into meat our cup is being filled. We do have the Holy Spirit within us at Salvation. But as we grow spiritually we are able to understand more and walk closer to Him. Could this be called filling?

Clifton
Feb 5th 2008, 08:53 PM
Since the movement started in the early 1900's, does anyone have referances from 100 A.D. - 1800 A.D. teaching tongues being used? I would really like to know. Slightly earlier, like the Second or Third century, and they were outside of the standard mainstream Church, and were called Montantists. You might be able to Google Search the words Montantist or Montantism (or the spelling variations, "Montanists") and learn more. Tertullian eventually joined this group, and was condemned for it by the Bishop Of Rome;

The revival of the Modern-day Montantists (as some of us term it) began sometime in the late 19th Century as initiated by Margaret MacDonald of Scotland (which initiated A MASSIVE number of things in todays mainstreams), and spread its wings in the Early 20th Century, thus, was the birth of the "Pentecostal" religion. There view was that the "church" had been in the dark "all these centuries" and has "now" been "brought back to life.". That is the usually saying of new groups. But I do not think they are this extreme anymore, not at least by the end of the 20th Century. BTW, I was Saved in a Pentecostal Church. OTOH, Jesse Duplantis was Saved after puking his head off drunk in the toilet. Bottom Line: a person can be saved anywhere, any place, any time, no matter what the circumstances are. ;) So I do not buy into the bit, "we are the only ones going to Heaven movements/denominations". The path is narrow, and few enter it, but I don't think it is as narrow as some might think.


1 Cor13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I believe that which is perfect is His Word (the Bible) We should live by faith and trust Him without "proofs"This was just tactics conceived by those opposing one system to another. One bunch says "perfect" means Christ, and the opposite bunch says it means the Bible. Neither are correct. This I can affirm for sure. It means, in simpler terms, 'when you are in Heaven with your perfection". For more on the Greek Word underlying the English Word "perfect" in 1 Cor. 13, please see my Koine Greek - Stem: τελ thread.;)

Having said all that - let me express I do not recall anything in the Greek Dictionary that "speaking in a spiritual language" is a no-no. And Having said that, I know there it is not a requirement, but a gift.

Buck shot
Feb 5th 2008, 09:30 PM
Slightly earlier, like the Second or Third century, and they were outside of the standard mainstream Church, and were called Montantists. You might be able to Google Search the words Montantist or Montantism (or the spelling variations, "Montanists") and learn more. Tertullian eventually joined this group, and was condemned for it by the Bishop Of Rome;

The revival of the Modern-day Montantists (as some of us term it) began sometime in the late 19th Century as initiated by Margaret MacDonald of Scotland (which initiated A MASSIVE number of things in todays mainstreams), and spread its wings in the Early 20th Century, thus, was the birth of the "Pentecostal" religion. There view was that the "church" had been in the dark "all these centuries" and has "now" been "brought back to life.".

This was just tactics conceived by those opposing one system to another. .

I do not mean it as a tactic, it is simply what "I believe". :idea:

As far as the "Montantist", thanks I remember that group now. Sometimes I need my memory jogged. Not much info out there on them as I remember but I will do some looking. As there are several years missing, why do you think it took a few hundred years after the Bible was being translated into so many different languages for this movement to resurface? It just makes me wonder.

Why are not some of the tribes that the scripture are brought to showing these gifts? If some are, they are not mentioned in any of the letters I am receiving from missionaries. It would seem this would be the perfect place to prove a point if a group that was not taught the gift just burst into tongue (speaking english back to the missionaries) as it was in Acts.

My biggest problem with this gift is that those that teach it put it above other gifts and look down on those of us who do not. I am convinced that if God has given someone this gift recently then good for them, but it does not make them any more holy,"filled", or "baptized" than the rest of us.

Remember I am not questioning God or asking Him to prove anything. I know He can do anything!

Clifton
Feb 5th 2008, 11:13 PM
I do not mean it as a tactic, it is simply what "I believe". :idea:

I apologize for the lack of clarity and words. It was time for another Xanax when I did that post:D.

In the past, I too, also believed the same as you do regarding that greek word for "perfect" as well. I learned differently from the Greek Dictionary later on. The Greek Dictionary is over 1500 pages long.



As far as the "Montantist", thanks I remember that group now. Sometimes I need my memory jogged. Not much info out there on them as I remember but I will do some looking.

Well, I have kept my head in the first century for awhile (but up to date on some new discoveries concerning Biblical Texts), and just poked it out a few months ago to see what is going on in the mainstream, and to get my memory refreshed about later things. Montanus was the founder of Montanism - some refer to Pentecostalism as neo-Montanism, or perhaps, even a clone of Montanism. I remembered there were two prominent women in this movement - a web page has just refreshed my memory, they were Priscilla and Maxmillia. The movement faded out in the 8th Century. You can access some info about them on WikiPedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism


As there are several years missing, why do you think it took a few hundred years after the Bible was being translated into so many different languages for this movement to resurface? It just makes me wonder.
Yes, about a thousand years. The main seed to many things in the current mainstream was Margaret MacDonald Of Scotland. KJV inserted the word "unknown" prior to "tongue" {# 1Co 14:2,4,13,14,19,27}, despite there is no Greek support those occurrences. So over 200 years later, Margaret MacDonald or someone after her made some use of these places.


Why are not some of the tribes that the scripture are brought to showing these gifts? If some are, they are not mentioned in any of the letters I am receiving from missionaries. It would seem this would be the perfect place to prove a point if a group that was not taught the gift just burst into tongue (speaking english back to the missionaries) as it was in Acts.

It is not surprising that the letters you are receiving from missionaries are not mentioning any of these "gifts". Do those whom the missionaries serve have Bibles in their language? Teachings of New movements that surfaced in the 19th Century, be they a clone of something else earlier in history (or combinations of them) or just new, are not going to be everywhere in the world. At the turn of this century, there were about 3000 languages without the Bible, a few years later, about 2800. A user at this board got a new update on that number in the past couple of weeks, and it is about 2200+ now.


My biggest problem with this gift is that those that teach it put it above other gifts and look down on those of us who do not. I am convinced that if God has given someone this gift recently then good for them, but it does not make them any more holy,"filled", or "baptized" than the rest of us. Yea, I've been in those in the last century - I call it "selective processing":) We focused on a few things only, like, some other movements that are into "other" contrary stuff focus on those. I'm waiting for the one that is going to teach that since Christ changed water to wine, we should be immersed in wine as a Christian rite :D - just kidding.

The best way to read a translation of the Bible is Chapter to Chapter. Once that is accomplished, then when scripture references are given, one can check the surrounding context to refresh their memory.


Remember I am not questioning God or asking Him to prove anything. I know He can do anything!:amen:

menJesus
Feb 5th 2008, 11:29 PM
So after salvation, where we agree-the Holy Spirit indwells believers, one should have a specific, easily discernable event-where the Holy Spirit overflows our life-Jesus called this the baptism with the Holy Spirit-it is meant only for Christians-and isn't "automatic" at salvation-but "can" accompany salvation like the gentile believers in Acts 10-my friend, Chris, was baptised in the Spirit in this way-as she was praying at the altar for salvation, she found herself praying in a language she did not know-having never heard of, the baptism in the Holy Spirit-or speaking in tongues. After that, we need to keep on being filled with the Spirit--ie yeilding to His love and power.

By the way, in scripture this was not a 'discreet" experience-those around and the individuals themselves KNEW this had occured.

Exactly! Great way of tying it all together! :)

menJesus
Feb 5th 2008, 11:36 PM
From buckshot:

"I do agree with the 3 follows. I even like the way you put it but..

You seem to contradict yourself. Do you follow the Bible or do you follow the leading of the spirit? You can always read the Bible and if you don't understand something, it's time to pray about it or just realize it may be something you will never nail down but I would never agree to go with a leading as doctrine. I believe God will open our understanding if we put the time into prayer and study."


Rest assured. My relationship with my living God is just fine. Thank you.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 11:40 PM
By the way, in scripture this was not a 'discreet" experience-those around and the individuals themselves KNEW this had occured.

Hi GG. If you are referring to where I used the word "discreet" I am referring to something entirely different than what you think. Discreet also means a point in time, as opposed to a gradual or analog occurrence. For instance, while time is continuous, 2:00pm on Dec 3, 1998 is discreet, i.e. a point in time.

menJesus
Feb 6th 2008, 12:07 AM
My opinion of "discreet" is that when you get this baptism you KNOW it, irrevocably. The power of the Holy Spirit is undeniable, here....:)

Buck shot
Feb 6th 2008, 02:38 PM
It is not surprising that the letters you are receiving from missionaries are not mentioning any of these "gifts". Do those whom the missionaries serve have Bibles in their language? Teachings of New movements that surfaced in the 19th Century, be they a clone of something else earlier in history (or combinations of them) or just new, are not going to be everywhere in the world. At the turn of this century, there were about 3000 languages without the Bible, a few years later, about 2800. A user at this board got a new update on that number in the past couple of weeks, and it is about 2200+ now.


:amen:

Thanks for the outstanding responce;)! Both informative and well said!

Both instances. For example some in China have scripture already translated and those in New Guinea are needing to live in the villages long enough to learn their language, teach them to write and read in their language and translate the Bible for them. I know three of the families in three of the tribes there. Two have been in the villages for many years and have already translated a couple of books. The amazing thing they relay to us is the way the Holy Spirit gives them songs after conversion. They were not taught to come up with these, our Father just gives them out. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!:pp

The need to learn more about the God that became man is so strong there it is remarkable what the people will do to hear it. During the flooding they had this last fall when a missionary couple was watching the water run through their village. They were thinking of how few people would probably be able to make it to the service when all of the sudden they saw a convoy of canoes. So many came that they filled the church and some were actually holding to the porch of the church to hear the gospel! I know this is not what the thread was for but I can't help it, when I think of this I have to share.

Our Father even lined up the bible study to where in one village they were at the point of teaching the birth of Jesus Christ at Christmas. The first time this village was ever taught Jesus was on Christmas! This may not seem to me a miracle to some when they lay out their churches schedule for the year in January but your not having to teach in this environment. They started with creation to try to show the true God of creation was not the pagon god's they had been praying too and studied their way to the rison Savior!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This may still not seem like a hard task to a scheduler or planner but remember the folks are amazed with things like chain saws because they have never seen one. Now try to explain what is going to happen when you pull the string on that chainsaw to a group of men holding machettes. Now try to stay on schedule! You have to take whatever time it takes to explain each detail.

These are some outstanding Christians! True soldiers for Christ!

Clifton
Feb 6th 2008, 02:54 PM
Thanks for the outstanding responce;)! Both informative and well said!

Both instances. For example some in China have scripture already translated and those in New Guinea are needing to live in the villages long enough to learn their language, teach them to write and read in their language and translate the Bible for them. I know three of the families in three of the tribes there. Two have been in the villages for many years and have already translated a couple of books. The amazing thing they relay to us is the way the Holy Spirit gives them songs after conversion. They were not taught to come up with these, our Father just gives them out. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!:pp

The need to learn more about the God that became man is so strong there it is remarkable what the people will do to hear it. During the flooding they had this last fall when a missionary couple was watching the water run through their village. They were thinking of how few people would probably be able to make it to the service when all of the sudden they saw a convoy of canoes. So many came that they filled the church and some were actually holding to the porch of the church to hear the gospel! I know this is not what the thread was for but I can't help it, when I think of this I have to share.

Our Father even lined up the bible study to where in one village they were at the point of teaching the birth of Jesus Christ at Christmas. The first time this village was ever taught Jesus was on Christmas! This may not seem to me a miracle to some when they lay out their churches schedule for the year in January but your not having to teach in this environment. They started with creation to try to show the true God of creation was not the pagon god's they had been praying too and studied their way to the rison Savior!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This may still not seem like a hard task to a scheduler or planner but remember the folks are amazed with things like chain saws because they have never seen one. Now try to explain what is going to happen when you pull the string on that chainsaw to a group of men holding machettes. Now try to stay on schedule! You have to take whatever time it takes to explain each detail.

These are some outstanding Christians! True soldiers for Christ!


Praise God! The Power Of The Gospel is wonderful. It seems safe they received salvation and spiritual immersion ("into the Lord and His Name", HS, and etc.)

Thank for sharing this! ;)

Buck shot
Feb 6th 2008, 03:12 PM
From buckshot:

"I do agree with the 3 follows. I even like the way you put it but..

You seem to contradict yourself. Do you follow the Bible or do you follow the leading of the spirit? You can always read the Bible and if you don't understand something, it's time to pray about it or just realize it may be something you will never nail down but I would never agree to go with a leading as doctrine. I believe God will open our understanding if we put the time into prayer and study."


Rest assured. My relationship with my living God is just fine. Thank you.

I did not mean to sound like you did not have a relationship with our Father. I can see by your defense of your spiritual walk with the Lord that you surely know Him and are known of Him! Please forgive me. We do not have to agree on every issue to both be children of the King and have our names written in the book of life. I believe we will all have a good laugh when we are in that beautiful city as to just how much we were wrong about that we we felt strongly about here.(I include myself about probably being wrong on issues)

My question is still do you believe that the revelation (prophecy) given under the gift of tongues supersedes the scripture? Is this message from God lesser, equal, or more reliable than the Bible? I would like to know because when I ask folks here that teach this gift they will not answer or they just beat around the bush with answers that do not answer.

RogerW
Feb 6th 2008, 04:29 PM
Dear friends, what does your Bible say for Acts 2:6-12?

I'll copy something down from my Greek Parallel Bible, but in the meantime, please check those verses out. In short, let me express that the Greek word the writer used in verses 2:6,8 is "dialeto" <1258 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1258)>. People were speaking in various known languages, but despite there were languages that people did not know, they were hearing the sayings in their own language, and that was the immersion (baptism) in/with The Holy Spirit (see Acts 1:5ff). This was a "jump start" for the Gospel, because the writings were not readily available, and/or written yet, and was only heard of by word of mouth (there is a scripture reference that specifies this, but I cannot remember where it is at this moment). The Gospel was spread at a better and faster pace due to this.

As for "unknown tongues", to my knowledge, that only occurs in 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, 13, 19, 27. As I recall, it was mainly being addressed due to abuse[?].

Greetings Clifton,

Tongues in Acts ALWAYS refers to a language, and I believe the same is true in 1Co 14:2, 4, 13, 14, 19, 27. I find it interesting that in all these verses in chapter 14 the word "unknown" preceding tongue(s) is italicized. That means it was added by the translators hopefully to aid in understanding the passage, but was not part of the text. In this particular passage adding the word "unknown" may serve to muddy our understanding rather than clarifying it.

We know that tongue(s) is interpreted as language or languages. Consider the following verses translated thus from the Concordant version:

vs 2...For he who is talking a language is not talking to men, but to God. For no one is hearing, but in spirit he is speaking secrets.

vs 4...He who is talking a language is edifying himself, yet he who is prophesying is edifying the ecclesia.

vs 13...Wherefore let even him who is talking a language be praying that he may be interpreting.

vs 14...For if I should be praying in a language, my spirit is praying, yet my mind is unfruitful.

vs 19...But in the ecclesia do I want to speak five words with my mind, that I should be instructing others also, or ten thousand words in a language?

vs 27...Whether anyone is talking a language, by two, or, at most, three, and by installments, let one also be interpreting.

It's clear from this chapter that the church in Corinth was abusing the spiritual gifts. This practice of speaking in a language that no one could understand was done to make it appear the one with the gift was more spiritual than others. When we hear of this so-called gift being practiced today, it is NOT any language, but merely incoherent babbling that no one understands. Although these first century Corinthians may have been given the gift of speaking in another language, even this gift is not beneficial without an interpreter.

Many Blessings,
RW

menJesus
Feb 6th 2008, 05:35 PM
I did not mean to sound like you did not have a relationship with our Father. I can see by your defense of your spiritual walk with the Lord that you surely know Him and are known of Him! Please forgive me. We do not have to agree on every issue to both be children of the King and have our names written in the book of life. I believe we will all have a good laugh when we are in that beautiful city as to just how much we were wrong about that we we felt strongly about here.(I include myself about probably being wrong on issues)

My question is still do you believe that the revelation (prophecy) given under the gift of tongues supersedes the scripture? Is this message from God lesser, equal, or more reliable than the Bible? I would like to know because when I ask folks here that teach this gift they will not answer or they just beat around the bush with answers that do not answer.

Are you asking if I would believe a given prophecy over the Word? No confusion there - the Word is true, and if the prophecy is true prophecy, it will align with the Word. I would consider a prophecy as confirmation of what the Lord already let me know through His Word.
Prophecy enhances the Word.

The message from God...I wouldn`t call a prophecy lesser, as I feel like anything the Lord gives us now and today is simply great. The Bible is great, but a prophecy is now and for now...or the future. More reliable? That is not how I would put it. Plain and simple, yes! Sometimes we can struggle for what seems forever, but a prophecy puts an end to any doubt about it at all.

How can prophecy be taught? This is a gift from God - one of the spiritual gifts - how can a man teach the things of God such as this??? Explain this, please...now I am confused...

godsgirl
Feb 6th 2008, 07:01 PM
Someone asked a few posts back if I believed a message in tongues + interpretation is on par with scripture???? Tongues and interpretation will NEVER contradict scripture-so that is a moot point-it is a gift from God, and as such speaks directly to the people present and the situation they are in-but never, no never teaches anything other than the Bible already teaches. Most of us, who are "Spirit baptised" can pretty easily discern if someone is speaking from their own spirit-it just has a different "vibe" to it. I think that's where discernment comes in to play.

The Bible says, "he who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God, INDEED NO ONE understands, but in the spirit he speaks mysteries".

Most speaking in tongues is for our private prayer and praise time-the "gift" of tongues is the annointing to speak out in a service-which needs interpreting. Paul made it plain that this was to be the case.


When Jesus returns or we are in glory-we will know as we are known, but for now we see through a glass darkly-and tongues are a tool the Lord gives us.

shootingdead
Feb 6th 2008, 07:08 PM
So after salvation, where we agree-the Holy Spirit indwells believers, one should have a specific, easily discernable event-where the Holy Spirit overflows our life-Jesus called this the baptism with the Holy Spirit-it is meant only for Christians-and isn't "automatic" at salvation-but "can" accompany salvation like the gentile believers in Acts 10-my friend, Chris, was baptised in the Spirit in this way-as she was praying at the altar for salvation, she found herself praying in a language she did not know-having never heard of, the baptism in the Holy Spirit-or speaking in tongues. After that, we need to keep on being filled with the Spirit--ie yeilding to His love and power.

By the way, in scripture this was not a 'discreet" experience-those around and the individuals themselves KNEW this had occured.hi everyone i have enjoyed reading the discussion which has challenged my views.

godsgirl please can i ask what you think if a person hasn't had this type of experience? will they still be able to speak in tongues (for private use)?

Buck shot
Feb 6th 2008, 07:08 PM
Are you asking if I would believe a given prophecy over the Word? No confusion there - the Word is true, and if the prophecy is true prophecy, it will align with the Word. I would consider a prophecy as confirmation of what the Lord already let me know through His Word.
Prophecy enhances the Word.

The message from God...I wouldn`t call a prophecy lesser, as I feel like anything the Lord gives us now and today is simply great. The Bible is great, but a prophecy is now and for now...or the future. More reliable? That is not how I would put it. Plain and simple, yes! Sometimes we can struggle for what seems forever, but a prophecy puts an end to any doubt about it at all.

How can prophecy be taught? This is a gift from God - one of the spiritual gifts - how can a man teach the things of God such as this??? Explain this, please...now I am confused...

:kiss:Thanks for the responce. Now I am understanding a little better. Still not completely either.

I agree a prophecy should enhance the word because the Bible is the Word that became flesh (John 1).

I don't agree that I would take a prophecy as more reliable even if an angel from heaven delivered it straight to me. How could I know that the angel was from Heaven? I know we can build the argument that a message from satan could not come through a Christian but we cannot know anothers heart. There has been many false teachers that prophesied falsely using the names of Jesus and seemed so close to what we believe is right from the Bible. Could you believe another person when they say that God spoke through them something that changed your mind on what you believe? Where would you draw the line as to what is from God. Many false teacher in history started out on the right tract but as they started to get off track they lead others away with them. satan is very smart and a good plan would be to use someone that was well thought of in the Christian community to lead people astray slowly so that they would not see they were following an interpretation and not the word (Bible) of God.

How can we teach a prophecy? I would say the only way would be very carefully. We are told there would be many signs and wonders that could even possibly lead the elect to stray from the truth. This is why I believe we should be cautious of anyone that holds a sign, wonder, or gift as proof of salvation or truth. Only God can know a man/woman's heart.

Mark 13:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

I believe the Bible was written for all eternity and does not need changing to fit our lifestyle. That is all that has changed in the last 2,000 years. People are people are people with the same sin nature that Jesus saw when He was walking here.

I am not saying that you want to change the Bible or am judging you. I just would like to understand if a "gift" is being taught as an addition to the Bible as many "revelations" are today. If so, how do you know they can be trusted? What is used to compare the gift to what the Bible says? If it is to be taken as "more reliable", how long will it be before it contradicts something in the Bible but is just explained away that we must not me able to understand the Bible fully?

:B Maybe I am looking too deep into this and the prophesies that come through the gift of tongues is only for praise and worship and does not pertain to "opening of the scriptures". Please let me know because I am completely in the dark on what kind of prophesies are given.

I'm still confused too.... maybe we can all help each other if we keep this going?

godsgirl
Feb 6th 2008, 07:09 PM
Someone asked if I equate "tongues" with the baptism in the Spirit. I just think tongues comes with the baptism in the Spirit-automatically. Just like the disciples in Acts 2, and Acts 19, and Acts 10. Just like a tongue comes with a pair of shoes-lol-you just get it with it.

godsgirl
Feb 6th 2008, 07:17 PM
hi everyone i have enjoyed reading the discussion which has challenged my views.

godsgirl please can i ask what you think if a person hasn't had this type of experience? will they still be able to have the gift of speaking in tongues?


I think that if a person who has never spoken in tongues before, suddenly is lead by the Spirit to give a message in other tongues in the congregation they would have received the baptism in the Spirit at that moment. On the other hand, I do not know anyone who hasn't been "Spirit baptised" who gave a message in other tongues in church, so???

Remember, most speaking in tongues is for private prayer and praise., and is for the building up of our faith.
Paul said,..
"I thank my God I speak in tongues more than all of you....YET in the church, I would rather speak 5 words others understand than 1000 words in a tongue"--"unless one interprets" so that the church can be built up"

shootingdead
Feb 6th 2008, 07:19 PM
I think that if a person who has never spoken in tongues before, suddenly is lead by the Spirit to give a message in other tongues in the congregation they would have received the baptism in the Spirit at that moment. On the other hand, I do not know anyone who hasn't been "Spirit baptised" who gave a message in other tongues in church, so???

Remember, most speaking in tongues is for private prayer and praise., and is for the building up of our faith.
Paul said,..
"I thank my God I speak in tongues more than all of you....YET in the church, I would rather speak 5 words others understand than 1000 words in a tongue"--"unless one interprets" so that the church can be built up"
sorry i meant for private use, i edited my post while you were replying you were so quick!

godsgirl
Feb 6th 2008, 08:05 PM
LOL, sorry shootingdead. Same thing for private use...I was baptised in the Holy Spirit in my dining room-by myself-just me and Jesus.

menJesus
Feb 6th 2008, 08:11 PM
:kiss:Thanks for the responce. Now I am understanding a little better. Still not completely either.

I agree a prophecy should enhance the word because the Bible is the Word that became flesh (John 1).

I agree to that.

I don't agree that I would take a prophecy as more reliable even if an angel from heaven delivered it straight to me. How could I know that the angel was from Heaven?

This is subject for a whole other debate. But let me put it this way - a young christian may find 20 Scriptures re: what he is praying for, but a prophecy is the correct word at the correct time.

I know we can build the argument that a message from satan could not come through a Christian but we cannot know anothers heart. There has been many false teachers that prophesied falsely using the names of Jesus and seemed so close to what we believe is right from the Bible. Could you believe another person when they say that God spoke through them something that changed your mind on what you believe?

When someone has given me a true prophecy, I have always known it. The Holy Spirit has quickened me in my spirit every time. I assume He does this to all people, every time. I could be wrong.

Where would you draw the line as to what is from God. Many false teacher in history started out on the right tract but as they started to get off track they lead others away with them. satan is very smart and a good plan would be to use someone that was well thought of in the Christian community to lead people astray slowly so that they would not see they were following an interpretation and not the word (Bible) of God.

Are you talking of personal prophecy, or corporate prophecy, or people like Jim Jones, here? There is a world of difference in the three.

How can we teach a prophecy? I would say the only way would be very carefully. We are told there would be many signs and wonders that could even possibly lead the elect to stray from the truth. This is why I believe we should be cautious of anyone that holds a sign, wonder, or gift as proof of salvation or truth. Only God can know a man/woman's heart.

I believe you are misinformed here. The signs and wonders are from God, the spiritual gifts are from God - all is from God. We don`t need to know another`s heart. God puts the true word of prophecy in their mouth, to give to us. I will say it again - NO MAN can teach prophecy to ANOTHER MAN. And if a man speaks to you from their heart, it is NOT prophecy. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Mark 13:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

I believe the Bible was written for all eternity and does not need changing to fit our lifestyle. That is all that has changed in the last 2,000 years. People are people are people with the same sin nature that Jesus saw when He was walking here.

I am not saying that you want to change the Bible or am judging you. I just would like to understand if a "gift" is being taught as an addition to the Bible as many "revelations" are today. If so, how do you know they can be trusted? What is used to compare the gift to what the Bible says? If it is to be taken as "more reliable", how long will it be before it contradicts something in the Bible but is just explained away that we must not me able to understand the Bible fully?

I would not trust anybody who is "taught" anything! God does not need man teaching man - the Bible says the Holy Spirit is our teacher. And the holy Spirit is the one who gives this prophecy, any time, every time...

:B Maybe I am looking too deep into this and the prophesies that come through the gift of tongues is only for praise and worship and does not pertain to "opening of the scriptures". Please let me know because I am completely in the dark on what kind of prophesies are given.

There is individual prophecy, and there is prophecy to the body of the church, as a whole. Prophecy is given for the correction, reproof, and/or edification of the recipient.

I'm still confused too.... maybe we can all help each other if we keep this going?


I can see you are confused - it is a confusing thing, trying to understand all the supernatural side of God. I will answer any question and help you out as best I can - I know a little bit about it. :)


One thing I want to say, and I have seen it SO much here - people have a tendency to believe more of the devil`s works than they do of God`s Works. The Bible is great, but know this one thing - it is not the be-all and end-all of God. The Bible is only the beginning of understanding of His immenseness and His greatness. The Holy Spirit is among us today, doing great and mighty Works - He is the Spirit of the living God we serve.

Once you grasp this, you will enter a whole new understanding of God and His Works.

Free_from_sin
Feb 6th 2008, 08:34 PM
Acts 8

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon noen of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord."
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Note that:

1) The people of Samaria, we learn in verses 14 and 16, were already saved, but had not yet received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

2) Peter and John went to Samaria to lay hands on them and pray for them to recieve the Spirit. Do we lay hands on people and pray for them to be saved? No, they pray themselves. Baptism of the Holy Spirit comes after salvation.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not to be confused with the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit at salvation. The Spirit makes our spirits alive when we are saved, but He does not come to dwell in us, we must invite Him in. He can't come into the house (our heart), until it has been cleaned. God is not going to dwell in a sinful temple, the only way the temple can be made holy is through salvation- after that he will come in if we invite him.

Titus 3:5 explains the Spirit's work in our salvation - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

When we are saved we are washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but not baptized with it.

Buck shot
Feb 6th 2008, 09:10 PM
I can see you are confused - it is a confusing thing, trying to understand all the supernatural side of God. I will answer any question and help you out as best I can - I know a little bit about it. :)


One thing I want to say, and I have seen it SO much here - people have a tendency to believe more of the devil`s works than they do of God`s Works. The Bible is great, but know this one thing - it is not the be-all and end-all of God. The Bible is only the beginning of understanding of His immenseness and His greatness. The Holy Spirit is among us today, doing great and mighty Works - He is the Spirit of the living God we serve.

Once you grasp this, you will enter a whole new understanding of God and His Works.

First I apologize to everyone for getting off track but I am really curious about this.

I do not want to lead you to believe that I am not grounded in what I believe. My roots run very deep in what I understand as sound doctrine. Without scriptural proof I will not be moved.

That being said, I want to understand this gift that is not given to all the churches. I find it very hard to believe that some are "more" spiritual than others or that some receive a "baptism" that is not given to all saints (true Christians, the elite, the saved, the ones with their name in the book of life).
Question 1: Why is this gift only given to certain churches today? Remember that on the day of Pentacost they did not have to believe in a gift to be overtaken by it.

I do understand that we are all at different waypoints on our walk with the Lord and some are mature Christians when others are just babes in Christ.

Question 2: How can entire church groups that are walking toward maturity not receive that gift when new converts in some churches receive the gift and are not questioned?

In some of the churches they are even expected to receive "that" gift as proof of their salvation. I know of one church here that teaches you must be (water) baptized to be saved but you can receive this gift before you are baptized.

Question 3: If you are not saved without water baptism, how can you receive any gift from God?

The part that confuses me most is not the power of our awesome God but is how we interpret these gifts. I know He has the power to give power. I do not question this at all. I know satan is limited in what power he has but to us that limited power can seem amazing. Look at how many will pay big bucks to see illusions when they are told that they are only illusions performed by a human.

I don't really think I could believe God to be any more than I do now... He is the "I AM" the beginning and the end... and He lives inside me :spin:

Please do not think this is some plot. I would really like to know about this from those that are teaching and living it.

Shining Light
Feb 6th 2008, 09:11 PM
To go with FFS: Just like you are not water baptized when you're saved, you are baptized afterward.

menJesus
Feb 6th 2008, 10:07 PM
First I apologize to everyone for getting off track but I am really curious about this.

No problem here. I hope the mods don`t lock the thread, is all, but if they do, start another one! :)

I do not want to lead you to believe that I am not grounded in what I believe. My roots run very deep in what I understand as sound doctrine. Without scriptural proof I will not be moved.

Good for you. We must have the Word as our foundation.

That being said, I want to understand this gift that is not given to all the churches. I find it very hard to believe that some are "more" spiritual than others or that some receive a "baptism" that is not given to all saints (true Christians, the elite, the saved, the ones with their name in the book of life).

All the spiritual gifts are not given to all, but we all have one or two, at least. As for the baptism in the Holy Spirit - I always personally thought it was the outward sign of a true, deep, covenant relationship with him. Brother Mark says it is for power. And the Bible says it is God`s approval of us.

I believe with all my heart that the measure of the Holy Spirit a man receives, depends upon the depth of his own personal relationship with the Lord. People can go to church on Sunday and pray and cry and sing, and then forget the Lord til next Sunday. Some people have a strong desire to KNOW this Jesus, this God, this Holy Spirit, so they seek Him always - praying, reading, talking to other christians, etc.

The best example I can give you of this is the OT - those people walked and talked with God - He was a part of their daily life. They included Him in EVERYTHING! and looked at their story, the things He did, the Ways He moved... I believe we as a people have grown far from God. I believe we are meant to have Him as close as Moses and Abraham...but we don`t - we are busy, caught up in the world...and we often forget Him. Nowadays, it seems that the people who really seek Him HARD are the ones who find Him - and the ones He finds.

Question 1: Why is this gift only given to certain churches today? Remember that on the day of Pentacost they did not have to believe in a gift to be overtaken by it.

This is not given to the church - although it would be if they wanted it. But many churches discourage the gifts, and the Holy Spirit. Some churches will ask a person to leave if they speak in tongues, for example...

These gifts are given to the people who make up the body of the church. Look at it as of the employees on the job - some are more dedicated than others, and a few are workaholics!

I do understand that we are all at different waypoints on our walk with the Lord and some are mature Christians when others are just babes in Christ.

That`s right. And some of us are so content in what we experience that we steadfastly refuse to contemplate the idea of spiritual gifts, and the Workings of the Spirit, period. Sad but true.

Question 2: How can entire church groups that are walking toward maturity not receive that gift when new converts in some churches receive the gift and are not questioned?

Again, its what is in your heart. The personal relationship. For me, religion came first, then oh, one glorious day, Jesus became real! and I have never been the same since...

In some of the churches they are even expected to receive "that" gift as proof of their salvation. I know of one church here that teaches you must be (water) baptized to be saved but you can receive this gift before you are baptized.


That is wrong. One receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit as He wills it upon us. Some do receive it before water baptism.... some good christians never ever receive it at all...ever.

Question 3: If you are not saved without water baptism, how can you receive any gift from God?

If you repent in your heart and are saved, then the Lord will do with you as it is His good pleasure, and in His own time. Water baptism is a public act of repentance, but He knows your heart inside and out.

The part that confuses me most is not the power of our awesome God but is how we interpret these gifts. I know He has the power to give power. I do not question this at all. I know satan is limited in what power he has but to us that limited power can seem amazing. Look at how many will pay big bucks to see illusions when they are told that they are only illusions performed by a human.

As I said earlier, when the Holy Spirit moves in one way or another, I can feel Him in my spirit. We all can. God will not let us be deceived. God is not mocked, either. When the Holy Spirit moves on you, you will KNOW it is Him. Personally, I have never known of any other spirit trying to get anywhere near me when I was worshipping in the Presence of the lord.

Now, satan will fill your mind with unbelief - absolutely! Why? Because if he can keep you in unbelief and doubt, you will never believe that the supernatural acts you experience are of God. You will never be used by the Holy Spirit as He would use you - your human fear will quench the Spirit. The Bible speaks to us about that... We are His hands - we are the body he uses to do His Work here on earth. But we must yield to Him, and be willing, or He will not use us at all, ever.

I don't really think I could believe God to be any more than I do now... He is the "I AM" the beginning and the end... and He lives inside me :spin:

He is, for sure. What I am saying is, don`t limit God to the size and thickness of the Bible you carry. He is so awesome - he is everywhere here among us.

Please do not think this is some plot. I would really like to know about this from those that are teaching and living it.

It is wonderful. I am in a place that is wonderful beyond belief.

godsgirl
Feb 7th 2008, 02:03 PM
Just thought I"d share this here...

I had "heard" of this-(the Baptism in the Holy Spirit), but I didn't attend a church that taught it-and I just wasn't sure what was right and what wasnt'. For awhile, I believed it was something real and for me, then I'd hear another preacher and go the opposite way-first believing, then not believing it-finally, I began to seek the Lord Jesus Christ on this matter-and asked Him to teach me if it was right or wrong. Over a period of about 4 months He taught me through the scriptures that He wanted all of His children to receive-so I asked Jesus to baptise me in the Holy Spirit-but for quite a while-nothing happened-no bolts of lightning, nobody moved my mouth for me, and I just couldn't quite "get it". Then one night I had a dream and woke up praying in a language I didn't know. But :B dense as I am-I still wasn't convinced. (I thought it was just a dream) A couple weeks later-I was praying alone in my dining room and asked Him "once again" to baptise me. I had a short "vision" for lack of a better term-of Jesus walking toward me-I was so humbled I couldn't look up at Him-but could clearly see His sandaled feet and the Hem of His garment-He had His Hand outstretched-and when He laid His Hands on my head-I fell to the floor on my knees-praying in a language I didn't know-the room drifted into the background and there was only Him. He is Love-manifested.
He changed me from someone who was "religious" to someone who absolutly fell in love with the King of Kings. Totally different relationship.




"there is coming one who is mightier than I, it is He who baptises with the Holy Spirit"

As far as the "gift" of tongues-where one speaks in a church service-and the interpretation comes forth.===about a year or so after that-the Lord used me in that gift. I maybe have been used in that gift 6 or 7 times in my life-but tongues, as prayer and praise-much more often.


Jesus called this "baptism in the Spirit" the promise of the Father in Acts 1-Peter told us who the promise was for in Acts 2...
--for the promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38-39)

Blessings to all!

shootingdead
Feb 7th 2008, 07:51 PM
Just thought I"d share this here...

I had "heard" of this-(the Baptism in the Holy Spirit), but I didn't attend a church that taught it-and I just wasn't sure what was right and what wasnt'. For awhile, I believed it was something real and for me, then I'd hear another preacher and go the opposite way-first believing, then not believing it-finally, I began to seek the Lord Jesus Christ on this matter-and asked Him to teach me if it was right or wrong. Over a period of about 4 months He taught me through the scriptures that He wanted all of His children to receive-so I asked Jesus to baptise me in the Holy Spirit-but for quite a while-nothing happened-no bolts of lightning, nobody moved my mouth for me, and I just couldn't quite "get it". Then one night I had a dream and woke up praying in a language I didn't know. But :B dense as I am-I still wasn't convinced. (I thought it was just a dream) A couple weeks later-I was praying alone in my dining room and asked Him "once again" to baptise me. I had a short "vision" for lack of a better term-of Jesus walking toward me-I was so humbled I couldn't look up at Him-but could clearly see His sandaled feet and the Hem of His garment-He had His Hand outstretched-and when He laid His Hands on my head-I fell to the floor on my knees-praying in a language I didn't know-the room drifted into the background and there was only Him. He is Love-manifested.
He changed me from someone who was "religious" to someone who absolutly fell in love with the King of Kings. Totally different relationship.




"there is coming one who is mightier than I, it is He who baptises with the Holy Spirit"

As far as the "gift" of tongues-where one speaks in a church service-and the interpretation comes forth.===about a year or so after that-the Lord used me in that gift. I maybe have been used in that gift 6 or 7 times in my life-but tongues, as prayer and praise-much more often.


Jesus called this "baptism in the Spirit" the promise of the Father in Acts 1-Peter told us who the promise was for in Acts 2...
--for the promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38-39)

Blessings to all!started going to church in January (won't say which year), may have already been saved as had always believed, was prayed for for the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the spring, nothing happened, started speaking in tongues in the summer and was baptised in water in November. was no Acts 2 like experience or even anything like yours. speak in tongues privately regularly and get a lot from it but never given a message in tongues publicly. reading this discussion made me question if i was baptised in the Holy Spirit but concluded i am.

Buck shot
Feb 7th 2008, 08:43 PM
Just thought I"d share this here...

I had "heard" of this-(the Baptism in the Holy Spirit), but I didn't attend a church that taught it-and I just wasn't sure what was right and what wasnt'. For awhile, I believed it was something real and for me, then I'd hear another preacher and go the opposite way-first believing, then not believing it-finally, I began to seek the Lord Jesus Christ on this matter-and asked Him to teach me if it was right or wrong. Over a period of about 4 months He taught me through the scriptures that He wanted all of His children to receive-so I asked Jesus to baptise me in the Holy Spirit-but for quite a while-nothing happened-no bolts of lightning, nobody moved my mouth for me, and I just couldn't quite "get it". Then one night I had a dream and woke up praying in a language I didn't know. But :B dense as I am-I still wasn't convinced. (I thought it was just a dream) A couple weeks later-I was praying alone in my dining room and asked Him "once again" to baptise me. I had a short "vision" for lack of a better term-of Jesus walking toward me-I was so humbled I couldn't look up at Him-but could clearly see His sandaled feet and the Hem of His garment-He had His Hand outstretched-and when He laid His Hands on my head-I fell to the floor on my knees-praying in a language I didn't know-the room drifted into the background and there was only Him. He is Love-manifested.
He changed me from someone who was "religious" to someone who absolutly fell in love with the King of Kings. Totally different relationship.




Thank you for sharing this Godsgirl. Truly beautiful!

Please don't be offended. I am in no way questioning you or your visions but, I would like you to share a little more. When you prayed in the language you do not know did you know what you were praying? Let me try to clarify the question. Did you think you were speaking a language you knew and heard another language coming out? Were you thinking of how much you love Him and trying to tell Him that or were you not in control of your tongue?

Another question, by your understanding can you be baptized in the spirit more than once? If so where do you find this in the Bible? Or would you say being "baptized in the spirit" is the same as speaking in tongue? What would you call the amazing feeling when all of the sudden something you have been praying for understanding on is suddenly "opened" or revieled to you without speaking in tongues?

Thanks again!

godsgirl
Feb 7th 2008, 11:30 PM
started going to church in January (won't say which year), may have already been saved as had always believed, was prayed for for the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the spring, nothing happened, started speaking in tongues in the summer and was baptised in water in November. was no Acts 2 like experience or even anything like yours. speak in tongues privately regularly and get a lot from it but never given a message in tongues publicly. reading this discussion made me question if i was baptised in the Holy Spirit but concluded i am.

I believe you are! Everyone is different-and God touches us in different ways-the only sign that the Bible uses repeatedly for the baptism in the Spirit is speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables.

godsgirl
Feb 7th 2008, 11:36 PM
Thank you for sharing this Godsgirl. Truly beautiful!

Please don't be offended. I am in no way questioning you or your visions but, I would like you to share a little more. When you prayed in the language you do not know did you know what you were praying? Let me try to clarify the question. Did you think you were speaking a language you knew and heard another language coming out? Were you thinking of how much you love Him and trying to tell Him that or were you not in control of your tongue?

Another question, by your understanding can you be baptized in the spirit more than once? If so where do you find this in the Bible? Or would you say being "baptized in the spirit" is the same as speaking in tongue? What would you call the amazing feeling when all of the sudden something you have been praying for understanding on is suddenly "opened" or revieled to you without speaking in tongues?

Thanks again!

Oh, I could never be offended by questions from a sincere heart-

Yes, I was telling Him how much I loved Him-my words in english just seemed so inadequate-it was easy to let Him give me the Words to say-but I believe I was in control of my tongue-God doesn't "force" us to do anything. I was willing to let Him have full control-In my opinion, the baptism in the Spirit happens only once in the believers life-just like water baptism, but we can be refilled-speaking in tongues comes with the initial filling., and is how we know we've received it. He is the One who gives you the desire to pray and the words to say--
I think that if you prayed for understanding-and the Lord revealed it to you-then He was answering your prayer.

Buck shot
Feb 8th 2008, 05:40 PM
Oh, I could never be offended by questions from a sincere heart-

Yes, I was telling Him how much I loved Him-my words in english just seemed so inadequate-it was easy to let Him give me the Words to say-but I believe I was in control of my tongue-God doesn't "force" us to do anything. I was willing to let Him have full control-In my opinion, the baptism in the Spirit happens only once in the believers life-just like water baptism, but we can be refilled-speaking in tongues comes with the initial filling., and is how we know we've received it. He is the One who gives you the desire to pray and the words to say--
I think that if you prayed for understanding-and the Lord revealed it to you-then He was answering your prayer.

Thanks for your responce :hug:

I wish I had more time to discuss this today but I have to get to work. They do pay me to take care of customers so I have to go.

I do sincerely thank you for answering these questions. I am still not convienced that this gift is not misused today but you have convienced me that you have a very real, loving relationship with our Father. I can't wait to meet you one day!

awestruckchild
Feb 8th 2008, 05:59 PM
That depends on what you mean by "get". Being infilled with the Spirit does not necessarily have any accompanying signs, or inward or outward manifestation.

The baptism IS accompanied by speaking in tongues. Always, always, always...

I received the Holy Spirit baptism and I never have "spoken in tongues."

godsgirl
Feb 8th 2008, 06:39 PM
Paintdiva-how do you know you have received the Holy Spirit baptism? Please use scripture for your response, ok?

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 07:01 PM
I believe you are! Everyone is different-and God touches us in different ways-the only sign that the Bible uses repeatedly for the baptism in the Spirit is speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables.

While that tongues is used repeatedly, the real sign was spelled out plainly in scripture as being power to be his witnesses. And we know of at least two folks that speaking in tongues was not recorded when they were baptized in the HS, Paul and Jesus.

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 07:03 PM
Paintdiva-how do you know you have received the Holy Spirit baptism? Please use scripture for your response, ok?

I will quote the verse the Lord gave me...

Acts 1:6-8

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
NASU

When someone walks in power that they didn't have before, it is a sign they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

awestruckchild
Feb 8th 2008, 07:23 PM
Paintdiva-how do you know you have received the Holy Spirit baptism? Please use scripture for your response, ok?

Huh??
I have no scripture to use.....I am talking about knowing Him personally.
I could describe how I experienced my baptism but I can't exactly use scripture to explain the experience...
Other than to try to explain what "His voice" means...

godsgirl
Feb 9th 2008, 04:21 PM
Oh, ok--but "knowing Him personally" isn't the same as being baptised in the Holy Spirit.

godsgirl
Feb 9th 2008, 04:26 PM
I disagree-we know Paul spoke in tongues-and we aren't told at his baptism what the signs were-in fact, we aren't even told that he was baptised in the Spirit only that "he arose and was baptised"==that could just as easily have been in water...and that doesn't negate the fact, that when we are given signs of the baptism in the Spirit-tongues are always there....each and every time.

As far as Jesus goes-the Holy Spirit wasn't given in this way until Jesus returned to heaven...
The Holy Spirit was not yet given - Christ had not ascended - been glorified. It was therefore expedient for them that He go away, otherwise the Holy Spirit would not have come. JOHN 16 v. 7.