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seeker_truth
Feb 4th 2008, 09:33 AM
Hello All, I'm writing another paper and would like to poll the forum on your view of the early churches of Asia Minor.

Do you believe these seven churches were Gentile or Messianic?

I have always believed all seven churches to be Messianic, but have little if any proof to establish this as fact.

Let me know your thoughts and beliefs on the subject.

BTW, a few of you know that my dad is undergoing treatment for cancer. Thanks for your prayers..He is doing well...Please continue to pray for his salvation.

seeker

dworthington
Feb 4th 2008, 12:13 PM
Their names indicate their location. I would say they are mostly Gentile.

Romulus
Feb 4th 2008, 02:16 PM
Hello All, I'm writing another paper and would like to poll the forum on your view of the early churches of Asia Minor.

Do you believe these seven churches were Gentile or Messianic?


Neither. Remember the words "there is no jew or gentile(in Christ)". The distinction is properly no longer an issue. Historically, though the seven churches in the first century were made up of jewish and gentile believers. I believe the Churches that were in view were back in the time of John, not the 21st century. Nonetheless, I believe it was both.

slightlypuzzled
Feb 4th 2008, 02:56 PM
They were seven churchs that were being warned about a pending judgment of God on the Roman world, and most particularly God's answer to the Roman world's response to Jesus Christ and His people. The question of 'gentile' or 'messianic' is misleading; they were God's people being warned to 'clean up their lives, be steadfast' and watchful...

2Witnesses
Feb 4th 2008, 04:00 PM
Seeker,

'Messianic' is a modern term coined by Jewish believers. Many of these claim to be returning the Church to its Hebrew roots, and so many have re-introduced Mosaic Laws into the Body of Christ.

The 7 Churches were composed of believers drawn from both Jews and Gentiles. And as said above, we are a new creation in Christ.

2Witnesses

the rookie
Feb 4th 2008, 07:17 PM
Hmmm...

Hey guys, my opinion: while the spiritual distinction that many are making here is accurate, the natural distinction is helpful contextually and culturally. I think that if we ignore natural / cultural distinctions between folks we can miss the context of the story a bit.

For example, it mattered in the natural sense to James, Peter, Paul, etc. that the Jewish believers of the first century celebrate the distinction of the Gentiles in the manner in which they embraced the faith - there were natural cultural distinctives that help us get the "flavor" of the story a bit more, understanding the dynamics and what was at stake.

A second example would be the book of Romans and the strained relationship between the Jewish and Gentile believers there after the decree of Claudius was reversed by Nero. The Gentile arrogance in that context towards the Jews and their lifestyle was addressed emphatically by Paul in Rom 11 with practical advice in Rom 14.

I've thought of the seven churches as mixed churches as well, by the way :D

It seems as if the only two churches that emerged in the first century with primarily a Gentile "flavor" were the Corinthian and Philippian churches (there was no minyan to form a synagogue in Philippi when Paul arrived, or 10 Jewish men). The Roman church was primarily Gentile for that short season of Claudius' decree leading to the expulsion of the Jews from Rome. Other than that, each of those cities in Asia Minor seemed to have a healthy Jewish population.

Just my 2 cents.

danield
Feb 4th 2008, 10:13 PM
First of all let me tell you how sorry I am about your Dad. Cancer is a horrible thing to face, and my prayers go out to you whole heartily. I know that you dad is the one in the hot seat, but everyone in the family suffers during such times, and my prayers go out to you all. However do pass along the news to your dad to keep the faith and try and endure his treatments the best he can because it does get better when it is all done.
As for your post about the seven churches, I am reading a fascinating book about the culture the apostles faced during their efforts to try and convert the different religious sects. I have not finished the book but it does point out how much of Rome’s territory was ruled by people believing in many Gods from pagans to Jewish synagogues to Christianity. It also try’s to show the premise that most of Paul’s converts were from much of what is called Christian sympathizers. Religion was huge during those days; weather you believed in Mars or Christ, Rome’s leaders took pride into not holding back the population’s appetite into their beliefs in Gods. It gets deep into translations of what God worshiping was (distinction from worshiping the current Caesars vs. any given god) and many of the letters written by Roman generals and Caesars. Anyway I will go into detail when I get the chance but if anyone gets a chance to read the book it is named In search of Paul. Those guys have done a lot of research of ancient sites and digs around the region. I am not sure if I agree with everything they conclude to in their book, but they sure have opened my eyes to the times that the apostles lived in for sure.

seeker_truth
Feb 7th 2008, 12:00 PM
Neither. Remember the words "there is no jew or gentile(in Christ)". The distinction is properly no longer an issue. Historically, though the seven churches in the first century were made up of jewish and gentile believers. I believe the Churches that were in view were back in the time of John, not the 21st century. Nonetheless, I believe it was both.

True, there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the spiritual body of Christ. However, there are difference between the two in the physical realm of Christianity.

A Jew has an everlasting covenant with God that is not commanded of the Gentiles, the circumcision of the flesh.

Paul who knew of the everlasting covenant taught against the circumcision of the flesh among the Gentile, teaching them the circumcision of the heart.

Christ did not make the everlasting covenants null and void, rather he fulfilled the law making the covenants complete.

seeker

seeker_truth
Feb 7th 2008, 12:04 PM
They were seven churchs that were being warned about a pending judgment of God on the Roman world, and most particularly God's answer to the Roman world's response to Jesus Christ and His people. The question of 'gentile' or 'messianic' is misleading; they were God's people being warned to 'clean up their lives, be steadfast' and watchful...
The subject and focus of this Thread is not the conduct of the churches, rather the reason for the selection and delivery of the letters to only Messianic churches.

However, the conduct of the churches along with the words of Christ help to substatiate the seven churches as Messianic and not Gentile.

seeker

seeker_truth
Feb 7th 2008, 12:39 PM
Hmmm...

Hey guys, my opinion: while the spiritual distinction that many are making here is accurate, the natural distinction is helpful contextually and culturally. I think that if we ignore natural / cultural distinctions between folks we can miss the context of the story a bit.

For example, it mattered in the natural sense to James, Peter, Paul, etc. that the Jewish believers of the first century celebrate the distinction of the Gentiles in the manner in which they embraced the faith - there were natural cultural distinctives that help us get the "flavor" of the story a bit more, understanding the dynamics and what was at stake.

A second example would be the book of Romans and the strained relationship between the Jewish and Gentile believers there after the decree of Claudius was reversed by Nero. The Gentile arrogance in that context towards the Jews and their lifestyle was addressed emphatically by Paul in Rom 11 with practical advice in Rom 14.

I've thought of the seven churches as mixed churches as well, by the way :D

It seems as if the only two churches that emerged in the first century with primarily a Gentile "flavor" were the Corinthian and Philippian churches (there was no minyan to form a synagogue in Philippi when Paul arrived, or 10 Jewish men). The Roman church was primarily Gentile for that short season of Claudius' decree leading to the expulsion of the Jews from Rome. Other than that, each of those cities in Asia Minor seemed to have a healthy Jewish population.

Just my 2 cents.

Paul was commissioned by Christ as an Apostle to the Gentiles[Acts.9:15, Rom.11:13], remaining so until his death. However, he probably visited a Jewish church from time to time for reasons we may never know[Acts.18:1-6] which by their actions toward him confirmed his mission to the Gentiles.

Therefore, I doubt that the Churches he helped to establish were Jewish or even had a Jewish mix.

The twelve Apostles were commanded of Christ to reach the lost sheep of Israel. Though, Peter was sent to the home of Cornelius, being for his understanding that the Gentiles were also party to the gospel; and, later with John prayed for the Gentiles at Samaria that they might receive the Holy Spirit[Acts.8:14-15].

In other words, Peter opened the door to the Gentiles, but it was Paul who walked through it.

Keeping this in mind, I am persuaded to believe that John was sent to Messianic Churches, rather than those of the Gentiles, which allowed this simple command given to John by Christ a beginning point for the interpretation and explanation of the Revelation; a book that deals almost entirely with the Jew, the land of Israel and its surrounding enemies.

Who else is better to understand a book that is written about them, then a Messianic Jew.

seeker

seeker_truth
Feb 7th 2008, 12:44 PM
First of all let me tell you how sorry I am about your Dad. Cancer is a horrible thing to face, and my prayers go out to you whole heartily. I know that you dad is the one in the hot seat, but everyone in the family suffers during such times, and my prayers go out to you all. However do pass along the news to your dad to keep the faith and try and endure his treatments the best he can because it does get better when it is all done.
As for your post about the seven churches, I am reading a fascinating book about the culture the apostles faced during their efforts to try and convert the different religious sects. I have not finished the book but it does point out how much of Romeís territory was ruled by people believing in many Gods from pagans to Jewish synagogues to Christianity. It also tryís to show the premise that most of Paulís converts were from much of what is called Christian sympathizers. Religion was huge during those days; weather you believed in Mars or Christ, Romeís leaders took pride into not holding back the populationís appetite into their beliefs in Gods. It gets deep into translations of what God worshiping was (distinction from worshiping the current Caesars vs. any given god) and many of the letters written by Roman generals and Caesars. Anyway I will go into detail when I get the chance but if anyone gets a chance to read the book it is named In search of Paul. Those guys have done a lot of research of ancient sites and digs around the region. I am not sure if I agree with everything they conclude to in their book, but they sure have opened my eyes to the times that the apostles lived in for sure.

Thanks for your prayers. Please keep dad's salvation foremost. He has seen a number of healings and miracles in the past two years; though, he chalks them up to luck, rather than the Creator.

If you happen to read or hear of any research done at ancient sites that can prove the division between the Messianic and Gentile churches, especially in the area of Asia Minor, please let me know.

Thanks again, seeker

danield
Feb 8th 2008, 04:55 AM
If you happen to read or hear of any research done at ancient sites that can prove the division between the Messianic and Gentile churches, especially in the area of Asia Minor, please let me know.
Seeker I am not sure where to start because it is pretty much all of the book. I highly recommend you taking a look at it. They have spent a lot of time comparing translations of relics to scripture and how the development of the early church got launched though the many religions of Asia Minor. They have made claims that the majority of their recruits come from Christian sympathizers but I know that some did come from the Jewish Synagogues because when I read acts and see the miracles that were preformed in front of the Jewish people I just think that they reeled in all the people that witnessed them. Please know that I am not being elusive but they really go DEEP into Roman society in that region.
Maybe If I give you a sample of what I am talking about:
This segment comes from a statue found on Delos. Delos is an island just west of Asia Minor which is undergoing an archeological dig over the entire island discovering many relics from ancient Rome from around the time of Christ and the formation of the churches.


Two marble inscriptions discovered in 1979-80 almost 100 yards north of that building further certify its identification as a synagogue, but raise a major question about its owners. Were they jews or Samaritans?

The Israelites on Delos, who make offerings on hallowed Argarizein crown with gold crown Sarapion, son of Jason, of Knossos, for his benefactions toward them.
The Israelites (on Delos), who make offerings to hallowed, consecrated Argarizein, honor Menippos son of Artemidoros, of Herakleion, both himself and his descendants, for having constructed and dedicated at their expense the proseuche of God, the (…) and the (…) (and they crowned him) with a gold crown and (…)

The first inscription testifies to the presence of a Samartian community on Delos who called themselves Israelites and who worshiped (ie sacrificed) at the ancient Israelites site of Mt Gerizim (Argarizien). The second inscription makes clear that those Samaritans had a proseuche on Delos, a building constructed and dedicated by Menippos son of Artemidoros. But this menippos is from Herakleion on the island of Crete, his name is pagan, and he funded a Samaritan, not a Jewish, synagogue. That first inscription honoree is from Knossos, also on Crete; His name is Sarapion, is also pagan; and, in fact, he is named after the Egyptian deity worshiped on the side of the island. Rather than Samaritans who adopted pagan names, these two were likely Cretan pagans now living on Delos who were drawn to the Samaritans monotheism and morality or perhaps simply associated with them for commercial and social purposes. They may have even been pagan God-worshipers supporting the Samaritan synagogue on Delos, just as other pagan God-worshipers supported the Jewish synagogue at Aphrodisias.
They go on and talk about how the Diaspora Jew melded to society. They go into depth on how Rome really was. For instance how they supported marriage and child raising families. They gave tax breaks to its citizens for it, and highly encouraged it because they needed the population. They also talk a lot about how the emperors were regarded as Gods. They distinguished the Greek and Roman terms of God worshiping of emperors. And all the Caesars did indeed like to have their names beside their pagan gods for worship. It was not just Nero that did it, but all of them. It is a fascinating book that shows just what obstacles the disciples faced during the formation of the organized church. It just humbles me in the awe of the job that they did to over come what they all faced. I know the Holy Spirit was a big part in their efforts and all accolades go to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, but they did have wonderful servants that loved them with every fiber of their very lives. We today are very blessed because of what happened back then. If you have some specific question I would love to help you but there is a lot of ground that I am reading in this book that covers your OP question. Hey buy the book and read it so I can talk to you about it! :hug:

seeker_truth
Feb 8th 2008, 08:36 AM
danield,
I appreciate the time you took in posting some very interesting info. Thanks
Need a title and author. Can't wait to read it...

seeker

jeffweeder
Feb 8th 2008, 08:48 AM
They had to be a mix of the 2, as the church ( messianics) was totally Jewish at that time............, yet were going into all the world to convert the gentiles.............these Churches are in gentile territory because gentiles in that regoin believed in Jesus as the Messiah and formed a congregation.

Romulus
Feb 8th 2008, 08:05 PM
True, there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the spiritual body of Christ. However, there are difference between the two in the physical realm of Christianity.

A Jew has an everlasting covenant with God that is not commanded of the Gentiles, the circumcision of the flesh.

Paul who knew of the everlasting covenant taught against the circumcision of the flesh among the Gentile, teaching them the circumcision of the heart.

Christ did not make the everlasting covenants null and void, rather he fulfilled the law making the covenants complete.

seeker

Hi Seeker,

This is where we disagree. I don't believe the Jew has an everlasting covenant with God since there is only one Covenant, the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Jesus made it clear that it was faith through Him that we are saved, not through ethnicity or "flesh". If you do not have Jesus, you do not have the Father. Remember the words of Christ, "No one comes to the Father, but through Me". How can you have the Father if you reject His one and only Son? You can't. The very purpose of the Old Covenant was to lead to Jesus. If you reject the New Covenant(Christ) you have also rejected the Old Covenant. Anyhow, the Old covenant was not unconditional anyway.

More then you probably wanted to know, but I don't see ethnic Israel of today as any different then any other people today who reject Jesus. We should pray for them to receive Jesus as Lord just as we should pray for every other nation in the world. Nonetheless, thousands of Jews are turning to the Lord every day just as there are many other people in all the world who are doing the same who were Hindu, Muslim, Atheist etc. I believe there are only one people of God, those in Christ Jesus. Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus is my brother/sister.

God Bless.

danield
Feb 8th 2008, 08:20 PM
Seeker the name of the book is In search of Paul and the authors are John Dominic Corossan and Jonanthan L. Reed. You need to know that the sites that are discussed are not exactly from the sites of the 7 churches but from sites through out all of western Asia Minor and Greece and Italy. You might check your library to see if they have copy before you buy it because it is a slow read for sure. It may be hard for you to keep your interest because it goes so deep into different ideologies. When you get finished with the book your brain will hurt but you will defiantly know more about religious behaviors learned directly from digs around that region. Believe it or not I have enjoyed it because I know I canít go to the area to see those sites and even if I did, I would not get as much insight as those guys did for sure. So I just consider it my trip there, and I will save the 5k!

John146
Feb 8th 2008, 08:40 PM
Paul was commissioned by Christ as an Apostle to the Gentiles[Acts.9:15, Rom.11:13], remaining so until his death. However, he probably visited a Jewish church from time to time for reasons we may never know[Acts.18:1-6] which by their actions toward him confirmed his mission to the Gentiles.

Therefore, I doubt that the Churches he helped to establish were Jewish or even had a Jewish mix.

The twelve Apostles were commanded of Christ to reach the lost sheep of Israel. Though, Peter was sent to the home of Cornelius, being for his understanding that the Gentiles were also party to the gospel; and, later with John prayed for the Gentiles at Samaria that they might receive the Holy Spirit[Acts.8:14-15].

In other words, Peter opened the door to the Gentiles, but it was Paul who walked through it.

Keeping this in mind, I am persuaded to believe that John was sent to Messianic Churches, rather than those of the Gentiles, which allowed this simple command given to John by Christ a beginning point for the interpretation and explanation of the Revelation; a book that deals almost entirely with the Jew, the land of Israel and its surrounding enemies.

Who else is better to understand a book that is written about them, then a Messianic Jew.

seeker

How do you come to that conclusion that Revelation is "a book that deals almost entirely with the Jew, the land of Israel and its surrounding enemies."?

seeker_truth
Feb 8th 2008, 10:59 PM
Hi Seeker,

This is where we disagree. I don't believe the Jew has an everlasting covenant with God since there is only one Covenant, the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Jesus made it clear that it was faith through Him that we are saved, not through ethnicity or "flesh". If you do not have Jesus, you do not have the Father. Remember the words of Christ, "No one comes to the Father, but through Me". How can you have the Father if you reject His one and only Son? You can't. The very purpose of the Old Covenant was to lead to Jesus. If you reject the New Covenant(Christ) you have also rejected the Old Covenant. Anyhow, the Old covenant was not unconditional anyway.

More then you probably wanted to know, but I don't see ethnic Israel of today as any different then any other people today who reject Jesus. We should pray for them to receive Jesus as Lord just as we should pray for every other nation in the world. Nonetheless, thousands of Jews are turning to the Lord every day just as there are many other people in all the world who are doing the same who were Hindu, Muslim, Atheist etc. I believe there are only one people of God, those in Christ Jesus. Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus is my brother/sister.

God Bless.

Humm, How does 'new' void 'everlasting', eternal, without end?

The everlasting law of circumcision was never complete without Christ.

I haven't mentioned any of the feasts 'yet' which were also everlasting covenants.

Of course Messianic believers are our bothers and sisters, that's not an issue.

seeker

seeker_truth
Feb 8th 2008, 11:49 PM
They had to be a mix of the 2, as the church ( messianics) was totally Jewish at that time............, yet were going into all the world to convert the gentiles.............these Churches are in gentile territory because gentiles in that regoin believed in Jesus as the Messiah and formed a congregation.

Jeff, Scripture hints strongly in the direction of all seven churches as Messianic. Still, a confirmation through an archaeological dig would be nice.

Also, due to the ingrained culture of a Messianic believer, I seriously doubt the mixing of congregations.

However, if a Gentile believer were to convert to Judaism, problem solved.

seeker

seeker_truth
Feb 9th 2008, 12:55 AM
How do you come to that conclusion that Revelation is "a book that deals almost entirely with the Jew, the land of Israel and its surrounding enemies."?
The answer is lengthy...I may blog it...

seeker

jeffweeder
Feb 9th 2008, 01:08 AM
Doesnt God see the Church as neither....he came to create one new man, whether Jew or Gentile to be Christain. One body, one gospel of God.

seeker_truth
Feb 9th 2008, 01:39 AM
Doesnt God see the Church as neither....he came to create one new man, whether Jew or Gentile to be Christain. One body, one gospel of God.
Jeff, I'm going to take a guess and say you're a gentile believer.
You might even be married..

What is it that keeps you from becoming one of the 144,000?
Well, unless you're a Messianic male virgin, you haven't got a chance.

Even if you assimilated into the Jewish community, and covert to Judaism, you'd still be a gentile in the eyes of God.

There are somethings in this life that separate us physically, but not spiritually.

That's about as simple as I can make it.

seeker

jeffweeder
Feb 9th 2008, 02:10 AM
In the eyes of God i have been bought with a price, just like any one else..including the 144,000.
We are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Jesus Christ...their is no difference.
We are all given a white robe to wear.
Whatever is of the flesh is flesh and whatever is of the Spirit is Spirit .

seeker_truth
Feb 12th 2008, 07:15 PM
In the eyes of God i have been bought with a price, just like any one else..including the 144,000.
We are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Jesus Christ...their is no difference.
We are all given a white robe to wear.
Whatever is of the flesh is flesh and whatever is of the Spirit is Spirit .

I can remember a time, not too long ago, when many believed that the Four Gospels were written directly to the Church. Yet, today, we realize they were written specifically to the Jew.

This might be a good place to mention, that as far as I know, I am a gentile, which allows me a clear path to proceed with this next statement.

Just like the Four Gospels, the Book of the Revelation was also written to the Jew. However, the book has been so distorted by Gentile opinion, that , to this day, it remains a misunderstood and highly disputed book; a book that has been interpreted by many who love the subject matter, but lack the spiritual gift needed to discern it correctly.

Now, I know that all scripture is given to the Church for reproof and correction, which is not the issue here, rather, the fact that the Revelation was written directly to the Jew.

I've noticed several other threads 'the scroll' and 'third seal' both major points in understanding the Revelation of Christ, and points that, if made clear and complete, can open up this Jewish book to a gentile generation.

seeker

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 08:44 PM
How do you come to that conclusion that Revelation is "a book that deals almost entirely with the Jew, the land of Israel and its surrounding enemies."?


Hmmmm....

Revelation contains 404 verses and over 12,000 words....

However....Revelation

only mentions the word "Jew" 2 times.
only mentions the word "Israel" 3 times.
doesn't even mention the word "land" any.

Yet it is suppose to deal almost entirely with the Jews, Israel, and the land?

I guess I'm not reading between the lines hard enough.....:confused

John146
Feb 12th 2008, 09:08 PM
Hmmmm....

Revelation contains 404 verses and over 12,000 words....

However....Revelation

only mentions the word "Jew" 2 times.
only mentions the word "Israel" 3 times.
doesn't even mention the word "land" any.

Yet it is suppose to deal almost entirely with the Jews, Israel, and the land?

I guess I'm not reading between the lines hard enough.....:confused

Same here. Double :confused

seeker_truth
Feb 12th 2008, 09:36 PM
Hmmmm....

Revelation contains 404 verses and over 12,000 words....

However....Revelation

only mentions the word "Jew" 2 times.
only mentions the word "Israel" 3 times.
doesn't even mention the word "land" any.

Yet it is suppose to deal almost entirely with the Jews, Israel, and the land?

I guess I'm not reading between the lines hard enough.....:confused

Let's not forget that Revelation is a book of symbolism, which requirers more than reading between the lines.

To understand the book is to understand the old prophets and the ancient times in which they lived.

For example, the tribes of Rev.7 refers to the Jew, the angel of Rev.10, who placed one foot upon the earth, refers to the land, while the woman of Rev.12 refers to Israel.

seeker

ShirleyFord
Feb 12th 2008, 09:50 PM
Hmmmm....

Revelation contains 404 verses and over 12,000 words....

However....Revelation

only mentions the word "Jew" 2 times.
only mentions the word "Israel" 3 times.
doesn't even mention the word "land" any.

Yet it is suppose to deal almost entirely with the Jews, Israel, and the land?

I guess I'm not reading between the lines hard enough.....:confused

You're right Dave. :)

And look how these words are mentioned:



Jews

Rev 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.



Israel


Rev 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 21:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 10:27 PM
For example, the tribes of Rev.7 refers to the Jew, the angel of Rev.10, who placed one foot upon the earth, refers to the land, while the woman of Rev.12 refers to Israel.

seeker


But you said, "a book that deals almost entirely with the Jew, the land of Israel "

Even if you include the 144K and the 12-starred woman; you still have the vast majority of Revelation (not almost entirely), which doesn't mention the Jew, Israel, or the Land.

Sorry, can't see where your premise that Revelation is 'almost entirely' dealing with the Jew and the land of Israel, as being a convincing persuasive statement.

"Some" of Revelation... sure, why not. I doubt anyone one would disagree with "some".

But "almost entirely" just is not supportable. That would require at least 300 of the 400 verses to be about those topics; and that just isn't so....not even close to that.

Revelation is about the spreading of the gospel during the first century; about the struggles that the children of God have, are, and will continue to face against the evil one; and about the ultimate return of Jesus from Heaven to unite with His own; and to cast those who reject Him into the fire.

It's not a book of real-estate or of racial segregation and exclusionary focus at all....definately not "almost entirely"

seeker_truth
Feb 12th 2008, 11:43 PM
[quote=David Taylor;1535292]But you said, "a book that deals almost entirely with the Jew, the land of Israel "

You have left out their surrounding enemies...



Even if you include the 144K and the 12-starred woman; you still have the vast majority of Revelation (not almost entirely), which doesn't mention the Jew, Israel, or the Land.
Sorry, can't see where your premise that Revelation is 'almost entirely' dealing with the Jew and the land of Israel, as being a convincing persuasive statement.

You're asking me to interpret the entire Book of Revelation for you?


"Some" of Revelation... sure, why not. I doubt anyone one would disagree with "some".
Good, that's a start....


But "almost entirely" just is not supportable. That would require at least 300 of the 400 verses to be about those topics; and that just isn't so....not even close to that.
Yes, it is supportable, provable, and undeniable...


Revelation is about the spreading of the gospel during the first century; about the struggles that the children of God have, are, and will continue to face against the evil one; and about the ultimate return of Jesus from Heaven to unite with His own; and to cast those who reject Him into the fire.
I will agree that the first seal, the white horse rider deals with the spreading of the gospel. But, we need to be a bit more specific about the rest, more in depth.


It's not a book of real-estate or of racial segregation and exclusionary focus at all....definately not "almost entirely"
On the contrary, it is almost entirely about real-estate, that which belongs to the Lord of all the earth, who holds not only the title deed, but has the right to post a notice of eviction for those tenants who break the agreement, and then has the right to enforce the eviction; not to mention the right of the Lord to permanently banish forceable those who invade his land without and agreement, hostile squatters.

I've nearly completed a paper on several major points that will help in the defining of symbolism and terminology. When it's been condensed down a bit more, I'll post and blog.

seeker

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 12:15 AM
You're asking me to interpret the entire Book of Revelation for you?
Actually no. Thanks though.




But "almost entirely" just is not supportable. That would require at least 300 of the 400 verses to be about those topics; and that just isn't so....not even close to that.
Yes, it is supportable, provable, and undeniable...


Well OK....I think that explains your position clearly enough for me right there.




On the contrary, it is almost entirely about real-estate, that which belongs to the Lord of all the earth, who holds not only the title deed, but has the right to post a notice of eviction for those tenants who break the agreement, and then has the right to enforce the eviction; not to mention the right of the Lord to permanently banish forceable those who invade his land without and agreement, hostile squatters.

I've nearly completed a paper on several major points that will help in the defining of symbolism and terminology. When it's been condensed down a bit more, I'll post and blog.


Don't go to all that trouble because of me. Really. Based on how you are wanting to interpret, "almost entirely", I'm really not interested. However, I do thank you for your willingness.

Mark F
Feb 13th 2008, 01:43 AM
David Taylor replied:


Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker_truth
You're asking me to interpret the entire Book of Revelation for you?

Actually no. Thanks though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker_truth
Quote:
But "almost entirely" just is not supportable. That would require at least 300 of the 400 verses to be about those topics; and that just isn't so....not even close to that.

Yes, it is supportable, provable, and undeniable...

Well OK....I think that explains your position clearly enough for me right there.



Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker_truth
On the contrary, it is almost entirely about real-estate, that which belongs to the Lord of all the earth, who holds not only the title deed, but has the right to post a notice of eviction for those tenants who break the agreement, and then has the right to enforce the eviction; not to mention the right of the Lord to permanently banish forceable those who invade his land without and agreement, hostile squatters.

I've nearly completed a paper on several major points that will help in the defining of symbolism and terminology. When it's been condensed down a bit more, I'll post and blog.

Don't go to all that trouble because of me. Really. Based on how you are wanting to interpret, "almost entirely", I'm really not interested. However, I do thank you for your willingness.






Have you considered this passage from Joel 2:30-32, 3:1-2?

30 ď And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
1 For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land."


What I can't get is that the Scripture is replete with promises made by God, who does not lie, to the people and nation of Israel, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning the land as their inheritance forever (everlasting covenants). The above passage in Joel is clearly speaking of the same things as Daniel and Revelation and yet people still deny that God is not finished with the Jews here on earth.

I suppose its merely coincidence that the Jews are now in the land of Isreal, that miraculous things brought that about. We are seeing Scripture fulfilled before our eyes and so many can't see a thing!

I think we all would agree that for God to use Moses to lead them out of Egypt, one country, a great thing. Today, the Jews have been brought out of a hundred nations without a man to lead them a we think it a small thing.

Blindness in part hasn't only happened to the Jews.

ShirleyFord
Feb 13th 2008, 02:29 AM
I think we all would agree that for God to use Moses to lead them out of Egypt, one country, a great thing. Today, the Jews have been brought out of a hundred nations without a man to lead them a we think it a small thing.

During the first century, God brought the Jews from every nation under the sun to Jerusalem to dwell:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.


3000 of them were saved in one day, the Day of Penticost in Jerusalem:


Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


A few days later, 5000 Jews from every nation under the sun were saved in Jerusalem:


Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.




Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.



Shirley

danield
Feb 13th 2008, 05:29 AM
Well I personally do not think the New Testament was written exclusively for the Jews. I also think there were many more Christian sympathizers, pagan gentiles, converted than Jews during the first century. If we need to find evidence in the bible we can see how in Acts 10 where Peter was given a dream of the sheet with the forbidden animals on it and was commanded to eat them. That very day, Peter went into Cornelius home, which was against the law for him to go into a gentile home and a very clear message was understood by the disciples. Convert the gentiles. After reading much of In search of Paul, I canít tell you how many ancient sites and references were dedicated by Christian sympathizers. I think the Christian fever really boiled over from that segment of population. I also feel that many Jewish people back then were very defensive about being labeled as the religion responsible for the conviction and murder of an innocent man, Christ. So they were a bit slower to convert simple because they stood for their forefatherís belief in defiance just as they do today. I know many Jews did convert especially in the light of great miracles but I think the swelling population of the gentile and the ever expansion of Christianity from their ranks easily out paced the Jewish converts. I also think that Christ came to earth to give the scripture to all not just the Jews, and Christ knew what he was doing. I whole heartily do not think that revelation or any book in the NT was written specifically to them, the Jews. There may be cases made to say that Matthew was written for the Jews, but I am sure through the generations Matthew has helped to convert many more gentiles than could have ever been imagined by its writer. I feel that the Torah was indeed the scripture dedicated for the circumcised, but the NT was for the Gentile, and no ceremony of circumcision was needed to become a full patron of Christís kingdom, and this is the message from Christ. It is the Change of heart towards him and his beliefs that sanctifies your relationship with God not the ritualistic practices of generations past. On a lighter note, I am just glad that the doctor got a hold of me when I was a weee little lad!!!

seeker_truth
Feb 13th 2008, 08:21 AM
danield, I never said the NT was written only to the Jew, it was the Four Gospels and the Revelation, and why not throw in Hebrews, too.

Acts, humm, when we speak of the early Gentile Church one has to remember that the twelve Apostles were sent to the lost sheep of Israel, while Paul was the Apostle sent by Christ to the gentiles.

Peter went to the home of Cornilus to simply opened the door to the Gentile believer, but it was Paul who was sent through the door by Christ.

As you can see, I believe that Christ came also for the gentile.

And yes, the Gospel of Matthew has brought many gentiles to Christ, but someone who simply wanted to disagree with you might say that the Holy Spirit draws the gentile to Christ. Both are right...

Sadly, there is always a way to take scripture and make a case for your cause. But a case made, which can unlock a truth unseen by the Church for centuries, is worth a few jabs by those who need more than a piece of info. here and a bit there.

I know I'll never change another's mind or belief, but scripture and the HS can..Thus, I sow the seeds of my gift and pray for the best.

seeker

Mark F
Feb 13th 2008, 04:17 PM
seeker_truth,

I want to say I agree with the direction of your comments.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people find the need to wipe Israel out of God's plan for the earth. Seems to me there will be a consequence to that action.

Revelation for the most part is as you say about God's realestate which the Jews lost through their disobedience, yet will be given back to them in THE most glorious display of God's power and grace.

The Church, which Paul repeatedly describes as a "mystery" is also a glorious display of God's glory and grace, but will come in second to what God has promised He will accomplish on behalf of His people Israel.

How does one so manipulate the text to misinterpret this passage as follows?

Romans 11:25-27;
25 "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


ď The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.Ē

Or the whole chapter for that matter. What part of "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" do people not understand.

Many will vehently disagree with me in this, but those who discard the Jews and replace them with the Church commit violence to the Scriptures.

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 04:38 PM
danield, I never said the NT was written only to the Jew, it was the Four Gospels and the Revelation, and why not throw in Hebrews, too.

All of those books, and you can go back to Genesis; and include all of the books between it and Revelation; and say they are all, 66 books, written for both Jews and Gentiles.

The Bible is written for all humankind. Don't even try to go into the teaching that certain books of the bible are not for the Gentiles stuff.

While some of the books were written detailing the history of the Jewish people; all of the books are written to all of humankind.




Acts, humm, when we speak of the early Gentile Church one has to remember that the twelve Apostles were sent to the lost sheep of Israel, while Paul was the Apostle sent by Christ to the gentiles.


Incorrect. All the apostles were sent to both Jews and Gentiles. The gospel went first to the Jew; then it went to everyone; and not only by Paul. All of the apostles; and thousands of disciples beyond Paul continued this outread.





Peter went to the home of Cornilus to simply opened the door to the Gentile believer, but it was Paul who was sent through the door by Christ.

Better re-read Acts chapter 10; and the story of Cornelius.

Paul wasn't involved at all, in Cornelius coming to Christ.

Peter and Paul both witnessed and drew people to Christ through the gospel; both Jews and Gentiles each of them; as did all the apostles.

Paul may have focused his calling on emphasizing that the Gentiles could now come to Christ; but he was most certainly not solely limited to sharing the gospel with Gentiles only; in the same manner as the other apostles were not limited in sharing the gospel only to Jews.

You are sounding like you follow the teaching of Paulinism...is that true?




And yes, the Gospel of Matthew has brought many gentiles to Christ, but someone who simply wanted to disagree with you might say that the Holy Spirit draws the gentile to Christ. Both are right...

It is true that the Holy Spirit draws all men to Christ; regardless race. It is false, however, to teach the notion that the Gospel of Matthew was written only to the Jews. I hope that isn't the direction you are wanting to go in.





Sadly, there is always a way to take scripture and make a case for your cause. But a case made, which can unlock a truth unseen by the Church for centuries, is worth a few jabs by those who need more than a piece of info. here and a bit there.

Sorry, but I am sceptical when someone starts introducing the idea that they are here to "unlock truths unseen by the Church for centuries".

The Bible has been intact for centuries, so to claim this, is to claim either ignorance on the saints who lived before us; or to claim somehow the bible and/or the Holy Spirit was incomplete for centuries. I don't buy that, and am concerned whenever I hear someone make claims like this.

As for jabs; we really focus on excluding them from the discussions here in ETC; I hope you will respect that.




I know I'll never change another's mind or belief, but scripture and the HS can..Thus, I sow the seeds of my gift and pray for the best.


What is your gift that you are sewing seeds for?

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 04:43 PM
seeker_truth,

I want to say I agree with the direction of your comments.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people find the need to wipe Israel out of God's plan for the earth.

Many will vehently disagree with me in this, but those who discard the Jews and replace them with the Church commit violence to the Scriptures.


Mark,
You are a fairly new poster here, and I think I can speak from all of the Moderators of ETC and our regular long-standing members who have been here for years; and say that there are no members who come here and post that "Israel is wiped out of God's plan", or that "the Jews are replaced with the Church" stuff.

While you didn't use the term 'Replacement Theology', that is what you are describing, and it is a pajorative, and it is something that has historically only been claimed in insultive ways towards others.

Noone on this board now, nor in the past, has taught that any Jews are replaced by Gentiles; and that anyone who is faithful from a Jewish lineage will be cast out. So just don't even go there. If you've seen that on other boards, then leave it on other boards.

Here, this forum has been united in saying that both Jews and Gentiles are drawn together, and partake together in Christ; and noone; regardless of race; is replaced, cast out, or rejected because of their race or ethnic background.

Mark F
Feb 13th 2008, 05:27 PM
David Taylor,

I did not imply what you adressed. You cannot deny that there is very little distinction on this board between the Church and Israel. The tone of this thread was that the book of revelation from seeker_truth's comments was that the book is primarily for the nation Israel in the time of the great tribulation, as I see the Church being absent from the earth during that time.

I made no reference to any racial destruction of any people but emphasized my belief that a clear distinction in the prophetic plan of God calls for a recognition of that.

I can refrain from posting on this board if you so desire, but I see much latitude with you from confessed preterists and such that as I recall are not supposed to be tolerated here. Your call, you let me know and until then I will remain silent.

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 06:12 PM
David Taylor,

I did not imply what you adressed. You cannot deny that there is very little distinction on this board between the Church and Israel. The tone of this thread was that the book of revelation from seeker_truth's comments was that the book is primarily for the nation Israel in the time of the great tribulation, as I see the Church being absent from the earth during that time.

I made no reference to any racial destruction of any people but emphasized my belief that a clear distinction in the prophetic plan of God calls for a recognition of that.

I can refrain from posting on this board if you so desire, but I see much latitude with you from confessed preterists and such that as I recall are not supposed to be tolerated here. Your call, you let me know and until then I will remain silent.


Mark,
First off, Partial-Preterism is just as welcomed on this forum as Premill, Amill, and Postmill; and all the flavors of Trib-timing.
(which is also represented in the Mod-Team of this forum; with pre-tribber, post-trib, Dispensational Premill, Historic Premill, and Amill; futurists and partial-preterists all represented therein as good checks-and-balances)


Only Full-Preterism is not allowed; so take that into consideration.

Secondly, try not to insinuate that other's believe in 'Replacement Theology' or 'xxx has replaced yyy', etc.....

If you have a problem with someone's post, and think they are doing that; then Report the post; and/or start a thread in the Chat-to-Moderators section to discuss it.

One of the most divisive things we have had to overcome in keeping this forum from being insultive and a hot-zone, is folks coming in and making blanket brushstrokes about what they perceive other people to believe. Don't do that. Share what you believe; but don't assume what others believe; and be careful to never do that in a insulting or pejorative way.

We want you to post and contribute; just be mindful of others; and don't get upset if others might believe differently or interpret things differently. None of us all do it the same way, and we can all grow and learn and be edified from one another; as long as we keep things cordial and don't assume for others. Ask questions if needed, but don't make blanket statements about others.

That works best here, and allows the most verbose contributions. For everyone. We want everyone to feel welcome to contribute.

seeker_truth
Feb 14th 2008, 04:36 PM
[quote=David Taylor;1536153]All of those books, and you can go back to Genesis; and include all of the books between it and Revelation; and say they are all, 66 books, written for both Jews and Gentiles.

The Bible is written for all humankind. Don't even try to go into the teaching that certain books of the bible are not for the Gentiles stuff.

While some of the books were written detailing the history of the Jewish people; all of the books are written to all of humankind.


My understanding is that the OT was written to and for the Hebrew. However, these books are used by all for reproof, correction and the edification of the Church.

As for the Four Gospels...
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matt.15:24.. These are not my words, but those of Christ.




Incorrect. All the apostles were sent to both Jews and Gentiles. The gospel went first to the Jew; then it went to everyone; and not only by Paul. All of the apostles; and thousands of disciples beyond Paul continued this outread.


To the Jew first and then also to the Gentile...I can not agree more with that statement.
However, the Apostles were sent by the Lord to the lost sheep of Israel..
You have a right to disagree with that statement, but allow me the right to believe it.



Better re-read Acts chapter 10; and the story of Cornelius.
Paul wasn't involved at all, in Cornelius coming to Christ.


I never said Paul was involved with the story of Cornelius. You totally missed what I stated..
Peter opened the door to the gentiles, while Paul was sent through that door by Christ. There was a substantial amount of time that passed between these two events, perhaps years...



You are sounding like you follow the teaching of Paulinism...is that true?

This might be a good time to let those in the forum know that I was once a Mormon..I left them thirty years ago, and have since sought out the truth using two books; the KJB and the Young's Analytical Concordance.
Also, I travel a lot, attending Church where ever welcome. And, I'm non denominational, and never into Paulinism....


It is true that the Holy Spirit draws all men to Christ; regardless race. It is false, however, to teach the notion that the Gospel of Matthew was written only to the Jews. I hope that isn't the direction you are wanting to go in.

Like I said before...The Four Gospels were written To and For the Jew, however, they are also used by all for reproof, correction, and the edification of the Church.



Sorry, but I am sceptical when someone starts introducing the idea that they are here to "unlock truths unseen by the Church for centuries".

Humm, have you ever heard of "and knowledge shall increase"?



The Bible has been intact for centuries, so to claim this, is to claim either ignorance on the saints who lived before us; or to claim somehow the bible and/or the Holy Spirit was incomplete for centuries. I don't buy that, and am concerned whenever I hear someone make claims like this.

As for jabs; we really focus on excluding them from the discussions here in ETC; I hope you will respect that.

David, you seem a bit upset, saying things I never implied or believe....
I shall refrain from using the word 'jab'...But how bout the word, poke.:D


What is your gift that you are sewing seeds for?
Increased knowledge of the end time.

seeker

seeker_truth
Feb 14th 2008, 04:59 PM
David Taylor,

I did not imply what you adressed. You cannot deny that there is very little distinction on this board between the Church and Israel. The tone of this thread was that the book of revelation from seeker_truth's comments was that the book is primarily for the nation Israel in the time of the great tribulation, as I see the Church being absent from the earth during that time.

I made no reference to any racial destruction of any people but emphasized my belief that a clear distinction in the prophetic plan of God calls for a recognition of that.

I can refrain from posting on this board if you so desire, but I see much latitude with you from confessed preterists and such that as I recall are not supposed to be tolerated here. Your call, you let me know and until then I will remain silent.

Mark, Don't let David run you off..Give it time...Our knowledge and understanding of the Word is ever increasing...Thus, the need to share...

There are still those who believe that 9 foot locust are going to emerge from the bottomless pit...Guess the early Church missed that one, simply because of the day and time they lived in.

Of course, there are many today who agree with them, believing that our forefathers were faultless in their understanding of scripture, and that there is little left for the Holy Spirit to teach the end time Church.;)

seeker

Codger
Feb 14th 2008, 05:06 PM
Hello All, I'm writing another paper and would like to poll the forum on your view of the early churches of Asia Minor.

Do you believe these seven churches were Gentile or Messianic?

I have always believed all seven churches to be Messianic, but have little if any proof to establish this as fact.

Let me know your thoughts and beliefs on the subject.

BTW, a few of you know that my dad is undergoing treatment for cancer. Thanks for your prayers..He is doing well...Please continue to pray for his salvation.

seeker

The modus operandi for the Apostles in the early years of Christianity was to speak in the Synagoges of their day. The Jews were scattered all over the Roman empire so this was an open window for the spread of Christianity. So the first converts were Jews and God Fearers who sat in the Synagogues of the world.

It was not until Peter had his experience with the sheet that it became possible for gentiles to come into the Church as the door to God up to then was through the door of the Law.

Eventually, the Apostles and Disciples wore out their welcome in the Synagogues, probably about 3 1/2 years after Pentecost with the stoning of Stephen. But by then they had a core of Knowledgible Jewish converts to provide the leadership of the Church. Since the Gospel was intended for whosoever will in all the world - it is just common sense that the Church over time would become predominately Gentile as Israel was just one nation out of many.

Ref: The Untold Story by Frank Viola gives a history of the NT and also the context of history in which the books of the NT were written.

David Taylor
Feb 14th 2008, 05:44 PM
My understanding is that the OT was written to and for the Hebrew. However, these books are used by all for reproof, correction and the edification of the Church.
Large portions of Genesis and all of Job, and Ruth deal either with Gentiles, or deal with believers who were Gentile even before Hebrews existed.

Who were those portions of those books written to and for?




As for the Four Gospels...
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matt.15:24.. These are not my words, but those of Christ.

To the Jew first and then also to the Gentile...I can not agree more with that statement.

And that is who the gospel went to first; but Gentiles were never banned from participating either.





However, the Apostles were sent by the Lord to the lost sheep of Israel..
You have a right to disagree with that statement, but allow me the right to believe it.

The Apostles were also sent to all the Gentile nations; fulfilling the promises made to Isaiah.




I never said Paul was involved with the story of Cornelius. You totally missed what I stated..
Peter opened the door to the gentiles, while Paul was sent through that door by Christ. There was a substantial amount of time that passed between these two events, perhaps years...

Peter didn't open any doors; Christ is the shepherd who opened all the doors. Peter and Paul together (and the other apostles), witnesses to whomever the Lord led; both the Jews and to Gentiles.




This might be a good time to let those in the forum know that I was once a Mormon..I left them thirty years ago, and have since sought out the truth using two books; the KJB and the Young's Analytical Concordance.
Also, I travel a lot, attending Church where ever welcome. And, I'm non denominational, and never into Paulinism....


That's good to hear, on both counts.




Like I said before...The Four Gospels were written To and For the Jew, however, they are also used by all for reproof, correction, and the edification of the Church.


You can't say the Gospels were written 'to and for' one ethnic group, but is 'used by' another ethnic group.

There is no difference. The Gospels were written for all humanity. Some parts within the gospels focused more directly to people from a Jewish heritage; but to claim that the gospels were written just 'to and for the Jew' and then cite the Gentiles as if then are a secondary addendum just isn't tendable.

Here is a more appropriate summary: "The gospels were written to and for humanity, to be used by all for reproof, correction, and edification".








David, you seem a bit upset, saying things I never implied or believe....
I shall refrain from using the word 'jab'...But how bout the word, poke.:D


Not upset.:saint: Let's avoid pokes and jabs. Let's attempt to work in words like 'edify' and 'uplift' instead.

seeker_truth
Feb 16th 2008, 02:14 AM
[quote=David Taylor;1537607]Large portions of Genesis and all of Job, and Ruth deal either with Gentiles, or deal with believers who were Gentile even before Hebrews existed.
Who were those portions of those books written to and for?

Those books were composed and edited by Jews long before the gentile branches had be grafted into the olive tree.
Let me stress, grafted in....And who was the olive tree? A jewish nation...not a gentile nation....The root was jewish...

The gentile received mercy through the unbelief of the Jew..So, let us keep that in mind, as we preceed to learn from those things that God and all of his wisdom had given to a people that was chosen long before the gentile, the Jew...



And that is who the gospel went to first; but Gentiles were never banned from participating either
I never said the 'Gentiles were banned from participating'...Let's stay in the correct text of a statement.


The Apostles were also sent to all the Gentile nations; fulfilling the promises made to Isaiah.
Thus, the Apostle Paul, a jew sent unto the gentile...


Peter didn't open any doors; Christ is the shepherd who opened all the doors. Peter and Paul together (and the other apostles), witnesses to whomever the Lord led; both the Jews and to Gentiles.
I felt at liberity to use something called 'a figure of speech' often used in expressing a thought. Apparently, it was misunderstood.


That's good to hear, on both counts.
Thank you, David....I'm glad you approve...:)


You can't say the Gospels were written 'to and for' one ethnic group, but is 'used by' another ethnic group.
Really? Humm, guess there isn't any common ground here, either...


There is no difference. The Gospels were written for all humanity. Some parts within the gospels focused more directly to people from a Jewish heritage; but to claim that the gospels were written just 'to and for the Jew' and then cite the Gentiles as if then are a secondary addendum just isn't tendable.
I've never consider myself to be secondary...Only, fortunate..:pp



Here is a more appropriate summary: "The gospels were written to and for humanity, to be used by all for reproof, correction, and edification".

Well now, it's all in the way we read, interpret and understand the greatest book ever written..Which started with just five books called the Torah..Or what the Jew calls, The Law...Not something that was written to and for the gentile...Yet, books that the Church can use for reproof, correction, and edification..

I believe that is a better way of putting it...




Not upset.:saint: Let's avoid pokes and jabs. Let's attempt to work in words like 'edify' and 'uplift' instead.

Yes, David...Let us remember that....

seeker

danield
Feb 16th 2008, 02:50 AM
The gentile received mercy through the unbelief of the Jew..
I disagree, we, the gentile, received mercy through Christ the Jewish people had nothing to do with "Christ's mercy" other than that christ was a Jewish person while he walked on earth. We did not "just recieve" mercy just because the Jew did not believe.IMO.



Thus, the Apostle Paul, a jew sent unto the gentile...

I disagree, acts 10 clearly shows this is not correct. Paul was just one of the many who were sent to the gentile. I really think you are on the wrong track seeker.

I have not gone into detail on many of your post, but I really think you have missed the importance of the gentile in the NT. I know Israel is the apple of Gods eye, and he does love his people, but he loves us very much too. I just think you feel Israel is the center of the universe from God’s point of view, and I think you are very wrong. I am sorry that we disagree, but David is on the money with his responses. Please do not take this in a disrespectful manor in any way, but I just think you need to scratch your head on this one.

Mark F
Feb 16th 2008, 03:15 AM
Matthew 25:31-32;

31 ďWhen the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats."


Joel 3:1-2;

1 ďFor behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land."

seeker_truth
Feb 16th 2008, 03:33 AM
I disagree, we, the gentile, received mercy through Christ the Jewish people had nothing to do with it other than that christ was a Jewish person while he walked on earth. We did not "just recieve" mercy just because the Jew did not believe.IMO.
"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:"Romans 11:30

[quote]I disagree, acts 10 clearly shows this is not correct. Paul was just one of the many who were sent to the gentile. I really think you are on the wrong track seeker.
Let us just say, that for now we stand in disagreement...


I have not gone into detail on many of your post, but I really think you have missed the importance of the gentile in the NT. I know Israel is the apple of Gods eye, and he does love his people, but he loves us very much too. I just think you feel Israel is the center of the universe from God’s point of view, and I think you are very wrong. I am sorry that we disagree, but David is on the money with his responses. Please do not take this in a disrespectful manor in any way, but I just think you need to scratch your head on this one.

Well, I'm a gentile danield, and I know that no matter what I do, I will never stand around the Throne of God and sing A New Song like the 144,000...That is a song and place reserved in heaven just for them...Rev.14:1-5

Now, I never said that God didn't love us all very much, because I know that he does...
And, YES, I do think that Israel is the center of the universe to God...

seeker

danield
Feb 16th 2008, 03:43 AM
Seeker I am going to try and put together a post that you can sink your teeth into to show you just how much the Lord loves us, the gentile. It will take some time, and I will have to pray that the lord may give me the proper verses to inspire you, but I assure you that there will be many great gentiles in heaven simply because there have been many humble gentiles who have freely given their lives in every way for God to be the least in his kingdom, and remember whoever is the least here on earth will be the greatest in his kingdom weather you are a Jew or a gentile.

danield
Feb 16th 2008, 03:57 AM
Here is a verse just off the top of my head to show you what Christ thought of the gentile and how some may fit into his kingdom.
Matthew 8:8 -12
But the officer said, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come into my home. Just say the word from where you are, and my servant will be healed. I know this because I am under the authority of my superior officers, and I have authority over my soldiers. I only need to say, ‘Go,’ and they go, or ‘Come,’ and they come. And if I say to my slaves, ‘Do this,’ they do it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed. Turning to those who were following him, he said, “I tell you the truth, I haven’t seen faith like this in all Israel! And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world—from east and west—and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

danield
Feb 16th 2008, 04:34 AM
In Romans we find many scriptures concerning just how the relationship the Jews and the Gentiles have with God.



Romans 2 25-27
The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile. And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people? In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it.


Romans 4:9-11
Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised!

This shows us it is not because you are a Jew that makes you great but your faith in God and his ways is what make you great. It clearly shows us here that the Father of all Jews was selected by God before he was circumcised (which means he was selected not because he was part of the Jewish community). Being Jewish is not what makes you great. Your faith in God does.

Let me pray over it tonight, I will try and put something together tomorrow, but those were some verses just off the top of my head.