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4nobletruths
Feb 5th 2008, 07:18 PM
I have been studying the book of Job and I was wondering if anyone else found this book interesting.
In Job chapter 10:20-22 we see Job's idea of what will happen to him after his death.
Does anyone have any feelings about this verse?
To me, it seems the view Job takes here makes him even more of an amazing person.

The Parson
Feb 6th 2008, 12:25 AM
Hi, moving this to the Bible Chat area for you.

HisLeast
Feb 6th 2008, 12:32 AM
I love the book of Job. It just goes to show you no matter how bad you think you've got it, someone always has it worse than you. When I think about the terrifying futures of this world, I try to think of Job and remind myself not to curse God when things get tough.

tgallison
Feb 6th 2008, 12:22 PM
I have been studying the book of Job and I was wondering if anyone else found this book interesting.
In Job chapter 10:20-22 we see Job's idea of what will happen to him after his death.
Does anyone have any feelings about this verse?
To me, it seems the view Job takes here makes him even more of an amazing person.

4nobletruths greetings

Verses 20-22 need to be looked at in light of verse 3. Job 10:3 "Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked."

Job is charging God with rejoicing in the purpose of the wicked, and defrauding the innocent.

It is interesting that Job charges God with rejecting the work of his hands.

Look at what Job says about his own hand. Job 13:14 "Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in mine hand?" It is a question but in the next verse he says, "but I will maintain mine own ways before him."

After Job charged God with using a heavy hand on him without reason, Elihu tell Job that he will not use a heavy hand on him.

Job 33:7 "Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee."

Then God asks Job if his own right hand can save him.

Job 40:14 "Then will I confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

Jesus is described as the right hand and arm of God many places.

Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"

Isaiah 40:10 "Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him."

Looks to me as if Job needs a saviour.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

4nobletruths
Feb 6th 2008, 06:57 PM
Thanks for your reply Terrel,

I can tell you are a very devout person. You obviously know your bible very well. You say that Job needs a savior. I can see what you mean.

Still, at the end of the book of Job, God says that Job has spoken truly about him while Job's friends have not. So, there is a truth about the nature of God that is contained in the speeches Job delivers, and error inside the speeches of Job's friends.

To me, the story speaks directly to our human tendency to see ourselves through our material possessions and our body.

What do you think of this perspective?

With gratitude and thanks for your devotion to God,

Mark

tgallison
Feb 6th 2008, 07:22 PM
Thanks for your reply Terrel,

I can tell you are a very devout person. You obviously know your bible very well. You say that Job needs a savior. I can see what you mean.

Still, at the end of the book of Job, God says that Job has spoken truly about him while Job's friends have not. So, there is a truth about the nature of God that is contained in the speeches Job delivers, and error inside the speeches of Job's friends.

To me, the story speaks directly to our human tendency to see ourselves through our material possessions and our body.

What do you think of this perspective?

With gratitude and thanks for your devotion to God,

Mark

Mark

The only thing that Job said right, that he truly understood was, I see thee therefore I repent in dust and ashes. The three friends did not say that. They told Job that he had to be more righteous, and that wasn't the problem. They knew Job better than most did, they were his friends. They knew he wasn't perfect. No man, even Job, could be perfect. He needed God's righteousness, and he was depending on his own.

Job 26:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Job said, "my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live." It wasn't until he ate those words that God excepted him.

I see Job as a picture of Israel.

Job 34:29 "When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation(Israel), or against a man only":(Job)

terrell

4nobletruths
Feb 7th 2008, 12:01 AM
I can see what you mean, Terrell.
Still, what of the very beginning of the book, where God is speaking to Satan and God says, "...have you considered my servant, Job, a man blameless who turns away from evil?".

Let me know what you think.

Thanks for your kind consideration,


Mark

tgallison
Feb 7th 2008, 12:48 AM
I can see what you mean, Terrell.
Still, what of the very beginning of the book, where God is speaking to Satan and God says, "...have you considered my servant, Job, a man blameless who turns away from evil?".

Let me know what you think.

Thanks for your kind consideration,


Mark

Mark

Paul describes himself in the same manner as God describes Job. Yet Paul was not saved at the time of his description. Paul also was a servant of God.

Philippians 3:4-6 "Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee: Concerning zeal, persecuting the church: touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS.

God was describing Job as an outstanding, blameless hired servant to Satan. And Satan said, put him to the test and we will see how blameless he is.

Job described himself as a hired servant. The law describes a hired servant as not belonging to the master, as not being able to partake of the passover lamb.

When God allowed Satan to put Job to the test, how would you say Job fared?

terrell

4nobletruths
Feb 7th 2008, 02:59 PM
Thanks for your answer Terrell.

You are obviously very intelligent and devout, I enjoy our exchanges very much and appreciate the time you are taking to discuss this with me.
Anything that I say is merely my opinion as a seeker.
I would like to take a moment and reply to your last post:

To me, I am not sure about the connection between Job and Paul.
The story of Job is around 3,500 years old, it came from a culture that had nothing to do with the Hebrews. I think we might get more from this story if we take it on its own merit.

Could it be that the story of Job is the story of a man who realizes that his actions and his relationship to God do not protect him from suffering in the world?
Didn't Jesus make this same point when he observed that God sends rain to the just and the unjust alike?

As far as Job being a servant to Satan, I just can't see how the words in the book of Job support this idea.
At the very beginning of the book of Job, God asks Satan a simple question , '...have you considered my servant Job, a man upright and blameless who turns away from evil?...'.

I would say that Job fared very well when tested by Satan-who only acted upon Job with God's permission-for in the end of the book God says that Job has spoken truly, while Job's friends have not spoken truly.

What do you think?

With gratitude and thanks for your sincerity and devotion to God,

Mark

Friend of I AM
Feb 7th 2008, 03:19 PM
Thanks for your answer Terrell.

You are obviously very intelligent and devout, I enjoy our exchanges very much and appreciate the time you are taking to discuss this with me.
Anything that I say is merely my opinion as a seeker.
I would like to take a moment and reply to your last post:

To me, I am not sure about the connection between Job and Paul.
The story of Job is around 3,500 years old, it came from a culture that had nothing to do with the Hebrews. I think we might get more from this story if we take it on its own merit.

Could it be that the story of Job is the story of a man who realizes that his actions and his relationship to God do not protect him from suffering in the world?
Didn't Jesus make this same point when he observed that God sends rain to the just and the unjust alike?

As far as Job being a servant to Satan, I just can't see how the words in the book of Job support this idea.
At the very beginning of the book of Job, God asks Satan a simple question , '...have you considered my servant Job, a man upright and blameless who turns away from evil?...'.

I would say that Job fared very well when tested by Satan-who only acted upon Job with God's permission-for in the end of the book God says that Job has spoken truly, while Job's friends have not spoken truly.

What do you think?

With gratitude and thanks for your sincerity and devotion to God,

Mark

Yeah I whole heartedly agree with you regarding the above Mark. Job is a difficult book to fully understand, as God did not condemn any of his testimony as being untrue. I think we can get a lot of allegories out of the book of Job, however, I know that God's purpose in allowing Job to go through what he did was Loving. Many people were blessed upon Job having to go through his persecutions. It may have not been the greatest experience for Job, but in the end if you look real deep into the story, I think you can indeed see Love being the motivating factor of the whole experience.

Friend of I AM
Feb 7th 2008, 03:31 PM
Mark

Paul describes himself in the same manner as God describes Job. Yet Paul was not saved at the time of his description. Paul also was a servant of God.

Philippians 3:4-6 "Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee: Concerning zeal, persecuting the church: touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS.

God was describing Job as an outstanding, blameless hired servant to Satan. And Satan said, put him to the test and we will see how blameless he is.

Job described himself as a hired servant. The law describes a hired servant as not belonging to the master, as not being able to partake of the passover lamb.

When God allowed Satan to put Job to the test, how would you say Job fared?

terrell

The righteousnous that comes from the Law is of God, not of Satan. Everyone on earth and the heavens is a servant of the Lord.

tgallison
Feb 7th 2008, 05:04 PM
Thanks for your answer Terrell.

You are obviously very intelligent and devout, I enjoy our exchanges very much and appreciate the time you are taking to discuss this with me.
Anything that I say is merely my opinion as a seeker.
I would like to take a moment and reply to your last post:

To me, I am not sure about the connection between Job and Paul.
The story of Job is around 3,500 years old, it came from a culture that had nothing to do with the Hebrews. I think we might get more from this story if we take it on its own merit.

Could it be that the story of Job is the story of a man who realizes that his actions and his relationship to God do not protect him from suffering in the world?
Didn't Jesus make this same point when he observed that God sends rain to the just and the unjust alike?

As far as Job being a servant to Satan, I just can't see how the words in the book of Job support this idea.
At the very beginning of the book of Job, God asks Satan a simple question , '...have you considered my servant Job, a man upright and blameless who turns away from evil?...'.

I would say that Job fared very well when tested by Satan-who only acted upon Job with God's permission-for in the end of the book God says that Job has spoken truly, while Job's friends have not spoken truly.

What do you think?

With gratitude and thanks for your sincerity and devotion to God,

Mark

Mark Hi

I am sorry I added some confusion to the discussion. When I made the statement, (blameless hired servant to Satan) it meant that God was telling this to Satan, not that Job was Satan's hired servant.

God did question Job as to whether or not he was going to make a contract with Satan.

Will try to answer some of your questions in the next post. Have to leave for a while.

terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 7th 2008, 06:08 PM
Mark Hi

I am sorry I added some confusion to the discussion. When I made the statement, (blameless hired servant to Satan) it meant that God was telling this to Satan, not that Job was Satan's hired servant.

God did question Job as to whether or not he was going to make a contract with Satan.

Will try to answer some of your questions in the next post. Have to leave for a while.

terrell

Job was determined righteous due to his humility before God in the end of the story , not based on any works he had performed. Job was not sinless, even though he had not commited any sins "with his lips." As stated in the above referenced post, everyone is a servant of God, whether they be deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous" by him.


Edit: So even though Job wasn't a sinner by his actions or mouth, he was a sinner simply based on the condition of his heart. This same testimony was given to the Pharisees by Jesus regarding how sin begins in the heart.(however they didn't possess a fraction of Job's humility and never repented of their sins).

Edit: Contract with Job Satan? It mentions that nowhere in the book of Job. In fact Satan actually fled after it was found that nothing he was unable to tempt Job to overtly sin.

Grace,

Stephen

tgallison
Feb 7th 2008, 06:41 PM
Job was determined righteous due to his humility before God in the end of the story , not based on any works he had performed. Job was not sinless, even though he had not commited any sins "with his lips." As stated in the above referenced post, everyone is a servant of God, whether they be deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous" by him.

Grace,

Stephen

Stephen greetings

I would offer that Job was determined righteous at the end of the story, because a witness, one of a thousand, witnessed to him of the ransom God provided for him, and Job excepted in humility.

terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 7th 2008, 07:06 PM
Stephen greetings

I would offer that Job was determined righteous at the end of the story, because a witness, one of a thousand, witnessed to him of the ransom God provided for him, and Job excepted in humility.

terrell

Actually, we can go even further than that. God's righteousnous, mercy, grace, and Love is what made Job righteous...and allowed him to repent with humility..:) It was all a work of God, not of Job. Interestingly enough, God's presence before Satan in this story - can be used as a reference as to how we as believers also have power over Satan when we have his Spirit within us..

Take care,

Stephen

tgallison
Feb 7th 2008, 07:30 PM
Thanks for your answer Terrell.

You are obviously very intelligent and devout, I enjoy our exchanges very much and appreciate the time you are taking to discuss this with me.
Anything that I say is merely my opinion as a seeker.
I would like to take a moment and reply to your last post:

To me, I am not sure about the connection between Job and Paul.
The story of Job is around 3,500 years old, it came from a culture that had nothing to do with the Hebrews. I think we might get more from this story if we take it on its own merit.

Could it be that the story of Job is the story of a man who realizes that his actions and his relationship to God do not protect him from suffering in the world?
Didn't Jesus make this same point when he observed that God sends rain to the just and the unjust alike?

As far as Job being a servant to Satan, I just can't see how the words in the book of Job support this idea.
At the very beginning of the book of Job, God asks Satan a simple question , '...have you considered my servant Job, a man upright and blameless who turns away from evil?...'.

I would say that Job fared very well when tested by Satan-who only acted upon Job with God's permission-for in the end of the book God says that Job has spoken truly, while Job's friends have not spoken truly.

What do you think?

With gratitude and thanks for your sincerity and devotion to God,

Mark

Mark

I see that you are from FL, I am from SW FL myself.

The whole Bible interacts upon itself. IMO Job is a descendant of Ishmael. The story may well take place while Israel is in the wilderness. (Job 12:24--13:1)

Job offered up blood sacrifices for sin, similar to Baalam's.

IMO Job was a hired servant who's pay stopped.

IMO Job did not fare well when tested by Satan. In fact Satan was right.

In the first test he passed. God said, in all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. But he failed completely the second test.

In Job 10:3 Job charged God foolishly. He charged God with despising the work of his hands, and looking favorably on the council of the wicked.

After the second test, the best that could be said of Job is that he didn't sin with his lips.

Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

In chapter three, Job cursed God's creation and his mother's womb.

terrell

tgallison
Feb 7th 2008, 07:43 PM
Edit: Contract with Job Satan? It mentions that nowhere in the book of Job. In fact Satan actually fled after it was found that nothing he was unable to tempt Job to overtly sin.

Grace,

Stephen

Stephen, If God asked you who is the king over the children of pride, what would your answer be?

terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 7th 2008, 07:48 PM
Mark

I see that you are from FL, I am from SW FL myself.

The whole Bible interacts upon itself. IMO Job is a descendant of Ishmael. The story may well take place while Israel is in the wilderness. (Job 12:24--13:1)

Job offered up blood sacrifices for sin, similar to Baalam's.

IMO Job was a hired servant who's pay stopped.

IMO Job did not fare well when tested by Satan. In fact Satan was right.

In the first test he passed. God said, in all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. But he failed completely the second test.

In Job 10:3 Job charged God foolishly. He charged God with despising the work of his hands, and looking favorably on the council of the wicked.

After the second test, the best that could be said of Job is that he didn't sin with his lips.

Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

In chapter three, Job cursed God's creation and his mother's womb.

terrell

Job's works weren't spirit based works. They were all based on his own effort and ability. So I guess Job wasn't really filled with the Holy Spirit, until the point of his repentance in the story. Perhaps a greater analogy of the story of Job, is how we as Christians cannot be completely filled with God's grace, until we have come to repentance before God - and realize our sinful condition.

But then there's the issue with Paul...Paul was Full of the Spirit..but at the same time in a constant state of agony because God allowed some of Paul's sin nature to rule over him, so he wouldn't get too arrogant or boastful - and still understand that he was greatly in need of God's grace. Still, much like God proved in the story of Job, God's presence - was much stronger than the sin nature that was present with Paul. Still it was a very tormenting time for Paul, which is probably why he exclaimed so much that he wanted to be free of the flesh, so he would no longer have to deal with the sinful nature.

Edit: Regardless of whether Job's original works were fleshy or spirit based, he was still a servant of the Lord. No creature in this universe can be anything other than a servant of the Lord, as even the kings/gods/lords of this earth are referenced to be servants of the one true God within the scriptures.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Feb 7th 2008, 07:49 PM
Stephen, If God asked you who is the king over the children of pride, what would your answer be?

terrell


My answer would be that God is King over all, as he has authority over all things whether they be good or evil.

tgallison
Feb 7th 2008, 08:13 PM
My answer would be that God is King over all, as he has authority over all things whether they be good or evil.

Stephen

Perhaps you could tell me who this king is?

Revelation 9:11 "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

respectfully, terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 7th 2008, 08:19 PM
Stephen

Perhaps you could tell me who this king is?

Revelation 9:11 "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

respectfully, terrell

Right after you answer to me who the King of this verse is referring to..

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

tgallison
Feb 7th 2008, 10:17 PM
Right after you answer to me who the King of this verse is referring to..

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

That would be the Son of God, the one third part of the trinity, Jesus the Christ.

terrell

tgallison
Feb 7th 2008, 10:55 PM
Job's works weren't spirit based works. They were all based on his own effort and ability. So I guess Job wasn't really filled with the Holy Spirit, until the point of his repentance in the story. Perhaps a greater analogy of the story of Job, is how we as Christians cannot be completely filled with God's grace, until we have come to repentance before God - and realize our sinful condition.

But then there's the issue with Paul...Paul was Full of the Spirit..but at the same time in a constant state of agony because God allowed some of Paul's sin nature to rule over him, so he wouldn't get too arrogant or boastful - and still understand that he was greatly in need of God's grace. Still, much like God proved in the story of Job, God's presence - was much stronger than the sin nature that was present with Paul. Still it was a very tormenting time for Paul, which is probably why he exclaimed so much that he wanted to be free of the flesh, so he would no longer have to deal with the sinful nature.

Edit: Regardless of whether Job's original works were fleshy or spirit based, he was still a servant of the Lord. No creature in this universe can be anything other than a servant of the Lord, as even the kings/gods/lords of this earth are referenced to be servants of the one true God within the scriptures.

In Christ,

Stephen

Stephen

For clarification, at what point did Job have a rebirth, a new nature, in other words salvation? Also the same question for Paul.

By your words, all creatures are servants of God. Therefore, just because Job was a servant, it did not mean that he had salvation.

terrell

tgallison
Feb 8th 2008, 12:21 AM
Mark Hi

My last post to you was not very orderly. Wanted to clear it up a little bit.

The first time Satan came before God, and said,("But put forth thine hand now; and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face."), Satan was wrong.

Job 20-21 "Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped. And said, naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: blessed be the name of the Lord."

The Bible says, or God says, if you believe they are one and the same, "In All this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Job past the test. Satan was wrong.

God set the standards for passing the test. Sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

A second test is given. Satan says, touch his body and he will curse thee to thy face.

This time Job doesn't fall down to worship, but sits down in the ashes.

This time Job says "Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

Then God says, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

At this moment one might say Job passed the test. Even though the scriptures leave it up to conjecture, whether Job cursed God in his heart.

But the next thing out of Job's mouth is to curse God's creation, and his mother. Some might say this doesn't amount to cursing God to his face. I disagree, but then that is my opinion.

But where there can be no doubt Job failed, is in not charging God foolishly.

Job 10:3 "Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?"

God said to Job, Job 40:2 "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it." Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?

Who can contend that Job did not charge God foolishly, when God himself made the accusation?

Here is a picture of Israel that portrays Job. Isaiah 44:20-21 "He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand? Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant; I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me."

"that he cannot deliver his soul," Job 33:22 "Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers."

"Is there not a lie in my right hand? Job 40:14 "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

4nobletruths
Feb 8th 2008, 01:13 PM
I want to thank everyone who has posted to this thread. I hear the devotion and sincerity inside your words, and I truly appreciate you.

Most of what I have heard, however, is only a reworking of someone else's opinion. For this discussion, I am not interested in what someone has told you about the book of Job, or what you believe you are supposed to think about the book of Job. I want your feeling about this profound, vital lesson.

Let me ask you this.
Have you ever been with a young mother just when she learns that her five year old daughter has been killed while crossing the street?
Or have you been with an elderly woman when she learns that her husband has been killed in an auto accident by a reckless driver?
Or with a father when he learns that his son has just drowned at a neighborhood pool?

If you have had any of these experiences, you have experienced random human suffering.
This is what the Book of Job is about.
In life, things happen that we have no control over. God has ordained that life will be this way.

The story of Job is an ancient folk-tale common in the Sumerian culture, and is believed to be around 3,500 years old, making it the oldest book in the Bible.
Still, its lessons are as rich and vital today as were the day it was first told.

Please, do me and yourself a favor. Get your bible, open it to Job, and read. While you are reading, forget everything that anyone has told you. Release all your ideas of what this book is 'supposed' to mean.

Read it, and feel the meaning for yourself. Remember, Jesus said, '...if your son asks for bread, would you give him a stone? How much more will your father in heaven give you good things if you ask Him?'...

This is the promise Jesus has made to us. Ask God for understanding, he will give it to you. Read the book of Job-even just the first chapter- with an open heart, and then tell me what it means to you.


With deep humility and gratitude for all of you,

Mark

Friend of I AM
Feb 8th 2008, 01:55 PM
That would be the Son of God, the one third part of the trinity, Jesus the Christ.

terrell

Okay let me answer your other question with scripture.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Being servants of God, the only person we should call King/and or Lord is Jesus Christ.

Grace,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Feb 8th 2008, 01:56 PM
Stephen

For clarification, at what point did Job have a rebirth, a new nature, in other words salvation? Also the same question for Paul.

By your words, all creatures are servants of God. Therefore, just because Job was a servant, it did not mean that he had salvation.

terrell

Job had salvation after God decided to use his mercy on him. Or as the scriptures state. "I will have mercy upon who I choose to have mercy, I will have compassion upon who I will have compassion."

Edit: The scriptures don't speak about when Paul reached salvation, but I'd say it was on the road to Damascus. Paul I think had a full transformation, but he had to struggle in the same way Christ did since the sinful nature was still present with him during this walk.

Grace,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Feb 8th 2008, 02:10 PM
I have been studying the book of Job and I was wondering if anyone else found this book interesting.
In Job chapter 10:20-22 we see Job's idea of what will happen to him after his death.
Does anyone have any feelings about this verse?
To me, it seems the view Job takes here makes him even more of an amazing person.

Never had a chance to answer this question. I've read the book or Job several times. Perhaps Job had no hope in his life originally, because he didn't see God as his savior, he saw himself as his savior. When God presented himself to Job in the end, he recognized that truly his life was the Lords, whether he lived or died. I don't think Job realized this before hand - as he went about the entire story telling about all the great things he had done before God - which is why he couldn't understand as to why God would allow those things to happen to him.

Job in the end though, realized that he himself(or actually God made him realize) was a sinner like everyone else, at the mercy of God's hand. I think this is what attributed Job to righteousnous in the end, as Job's righteousnous before God was never based on anything that he had done.

tgallison
Feb 8th 2008, 02:45 PM
Okay let me answer your other question with scripture.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Being servants of God, the only person we should call King/and or Lord is Jesus Christ.

Grace,

Stephen

Stephen good morning.

We are in agreement. But we are saved, how about the unsaved? What I was asking is, who was God referring to in Job 41:34? "He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."

terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 8th 2008, 03:00 PM
Stephen good morning.

We are in agreement. But we are saved, how about the unsaved? What I was asking is, who was God referring to in Job 41:34? "He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."

terrell

There are many "kings" TGallison. But only one true King. As it was commanded by the Word in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, I'll only recognize and acknowledge one person as being King in my walk, and that person will be Christ Jesus.

Grace,

Stephen

tgallison
Feb 8th 2008, 03:05 PM
I want to thank everyone who has posted to this thread. I hear the devotion and sincerity inside your words, and I truly appreciate you.

Most of what I have heard, however, is only a reworking of someone else's opinion. For this discussion, I am not interested in what someone has told you about the book of Job, or what you believe you are supposed to think about the book of Job. I want your feeling about this profound, vital lesson.

Please, do me and yourself a favor. Get your bible, open it to Job, and read. While you are reading, forget everything that anyone has told you. Release all your ideas of what this book is 'supposed' to mean.

With deep humility and gratitude for all of you,

Mark

Mark good morning

Everything I have presented is what I have discovered in the Book of Job. If anything that I have presented comes out of a commentary, please tell me where that commentary can be found.

Tell me which is more important. What someone feels about a book, or what it says?

tgallison
Feb 8th 2008, 03:10 PM
There are many "kings" TGallison. But only one true King. As it was commanded by the Word in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, I'll only recognize and acknowledge one person as being King in my walk, and that person will be Christ Jesus.

Grace,

Stephen

Stephen we are in agreement. If God calls someone a king, is that one a king, or is God a liar?

terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 8th 2008, 03:15 PM
Stephen we are in agreement. If God calls someone a king, is that one a king, or is God a liar?

terrell

If God commands us to do something, whom should we obey? Man's understanding of the Word or God? God has commanded me to only call Christ King, and being his servant I'll continue to do so throughout my entire walk.

Grace,

Stephen

tgallison
Feb 8th 2008, 03:21 PM
If God commands us to do something, whom should we obey? Man's understanding of the Word or God? God has commanded me to only call Christ King, and being his servant I'll continue to do so throughout my entire walk.

Grace,

Stephen

Stephen I am not asking you to call anyone else king. Who did God call king in
Job 41:34?

terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 8th 2008, 03:26 PM
Stephen I am not asking you to call anyone else king. Who did God call king in
Job 41:34?

terrell

This is becoming a rather roundabout discusstion Tgallison. Refer to my previous quote. That being stated, we should continue speaking about the topic of the thread, which relates to discussing Job's story, not whom we should acknowledge as a "king." If you want to open up another thread regarding whom God wants us to acknowledge as king in our lives - feel free to do so. As for now I will stop posting in this thread, as I don't have anything else to say which assists with the topic.

Grace,

Stephen

tgallison
Feb 8th 2008, 03:29 PM
I want to thank everyone who has posted to this thread. I hear the devotion and sincerity inside your words, and I truly appreciate you.

For this discussion, I am not interested in what someone has told you about the book of Job, or what you believe you are supposed to think about the book of Job.

The story of Job is an ancient folk-tale common in the Sumerian culture, and is believed to be around 3,500 years old, making it the oldest book in the Bible.

With deep humility and gratitude for all of you,

Mark

Mark where did you get your information for the date of the Book of Job?

terrell

4nobletruths
Feb 8th 2008, 03:33 PM
I want to thank everyone who has posted to this thread, I can tell that you are all very sincere and that you study God's word. I deeply appreciate you for that.

The book of Job, I think is about random human suffering. Remember, this story comes from the Sumarian culture, and is probably in the range of three thousand five hundred years old, making it the oldest book in the bible and one of the oldest stories known to man.

Have you ever been with a mother just as she learns that her four year old son has just been killed while crossing the street?
Or have you been with a man who hears that his wife has died in an auto accident caused by a reckless driver?

If you have seen these things, or any situation like this, you have seen human suffering. If God is all powerful, why do these things happen?

The book of Job addresses this question.
God hands Job over to Satan-the word here best translates as 'the Adversary'-and God says to Satan, '...behold, all that he has is in your power...'.
and with this, the epic of Job begins.

Job loses almost everything, and the only reason this happens to him is that he is alive and inside a human body. Isn't this the truth of life? Haven't you seen that pain and suffering can come upon anyone, irrespective of the way the live their life? Didn't Jesus say that God sends the rain on the just and the unjust?

I ask you to get your bible, open it to Job, and read just the first chapter, without any preconceived notions of what this book is 'supposed' to be about. Read it, fell what it is saying to you.

Let me know what you think.

With gratitude and appreciation for all of you,

Mark

tgallison
Feb 8th 2008, 03:47 PM
This is becoming a rather roundabout discusstion Tgallison. Refer to my previous quote. That being stated, we should continue speaking about the topic of the thread, which relates to discussing Job's story, not whom we should acknowledge as a "king." If you want to open up another thread regarding whom God wants us to acknowledge as king in our lives - feel free to do so. As for now I will stop posting in this thread, as I don't have anything else to say which assists with the topic.

Grace,

Stephen

Stephen I apologize for offending you. The purpose of the question was to get some common ground to discuss the Book of Job.

The statement was made by me that God had asked Job if he was going to make a contract with Satan. To me, the king over all the children of pride, the one that beholds all high things, is Satan. Whenever the sons of God came before God, Satan was there beholding it. (Job 1:6) (Job 2:1)

IMO Leviathan is another name for Satan. In light of the fact, God called him king over the children of pride, and that he beholds all high things. Job 41:4 "Will he make a COVENANT with thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?" (Remember in the garden, Satan spoke soft words to Eve.)

A covenant is a contract.

Sincerely, terrell

tgallison
Feb 9th 2008, 12:53 AM
I want to thank everyone who has posted to this thread, I can tell that you are all very sincere and that you study God's word. I deeply appreciate you for that.

The book of Job, I think is about random human suffering. Remember, this story comes from the Sumarian culture, and is probably in the range of three thousand five hundred years old, making it the oldest book in the bible and one of the oldest stories known to man.

Have you ever been with a mother just as she learns that her four year old son has just been killed while crossing the street?
Or have you been with a man who hears that his wife has died in an auto accident caused by a reckless driver?

If you have seen these things, or any situation like this, you have seen human suffering. If God is all powerful, why do these things happen?

The book of Job addresses this question.
God hands Job over to Satan-the word here best translates as 'the Adversary'-and God says to Satan, '...behold, all that he has is in your power...'.
and with this, the epic of Job begins.

Job loses almost everything, and the only reason this happens to him is that he is alive and inside a human body. Isn't this the truth of life? Haven't you seen that pain and suffering can come upon anyone, irrespective of the way the live their life? Didn't Jesus say that God sends the rain on the just and the unjust?

I ask you to get your bible, open it to Job, and read just the first chapter, without any preconceived notions of what this book is 'supposed' to be about. Read it, fell what it is saying to you.

Let me know what you think.

With gratitude and appreciation for all of you,

Mark

Mark

Elihu disagrees with you, that Job suffered because he was alive and inside a human body.

Job 33:17-24 "That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword. He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen, and bones that were not seen stick out. Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness; Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom."

The purpose is to keep his soul from the pit. There is a witness, a messenger, to show Job God's righteousness. Jesus Christ is the righteous one. Jesus Christ is also the only ransom for any man's soul.

The witness is Elihu.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Naphal
Feb 9th 2008, 05:53 AM
Job is a difficult book to fully understand, as God did not condemn any of his testimony as being untrue.


God spends many chapters berating Job for his impudence and after being scolded Job finally admits how stupid he had been and all the bad things he said about and to God:


Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Here he partially addresses God's original question:


Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?



Job simply admits he didn't actually know as much as he thought he did. There are some 35 or more chapters of Job and his friends saying things they didn't understand and accusing God of things that weren't true.

Friend of I AM
Feb 9th 2008, 03:06 PM
God spends many chapters berating Job for his impudence and after being scolded Job finally admits how stupid he had been and all the bad things he said about and to God:


Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Here he partially addresses God's original question:


Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?



Job simply admits he didn't actually know as much as he thought he did. There are some 35 or more chapters of Job and his friends saying things they didn't understand and accusing God of things that weren't true.

Yeah Job was sufferring from lack of knowledge in a lot of departments(like so many of us) but notice how the Lord said this within the following verse towards the end to Job's friends --

Job 42:7
for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

He called Job his servant as well as stated that Job indeed speak correctly about him. Job and Elihu were the only two people in the story who were not rebuked for speaking untruthfully. Still - I think Elihu proved to have a better understanding, or perhaps a greater reverance/humility than Job did for God.

Kind of interesting if one thinks about it, who was speaking from the spirit of God from the onset of the book? The only one I can think of who was speaking with the Spirit was Elihu. Job probably didn't receive the spirit until he repented and realized he didn't entirely know what he was talking about at the end of the story.

In Christ,

Stephen

Naphal
Feb 9th 2008, 10:45 PM
Job 42:7
for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

He called Job his servant as well as stated that Job indeed speak correctly about him.

We have to rightly divide scripture to understand that. Since God berated Job for what he had said earlier in the book, and Job admitted he was wrong then we cannot attribute this "speaking rightly" to that portion. God is clearly speaking about what Job recently said, about how bad he had been and his repentance.

Friend of I AM
Feb 10th 2008, 12:57 PM
We have to rightly divide scripture to understand that. Since God berated Job for what he had said earlier in the book, and Job admitted he was wrong then we cannot attribute this "speaking rightly" to that portion. God is clearly speaking about what Job recently said, about how bad he had been and his repentance.

He berated Job for his lack of understanding and knowledge of the things that he spoke, not for the actual counsel itself being untruthful

Job 34:35
Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.


Job 38:2
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?


Job 42:3
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."

Job had much zeal, but little knowledge or understanding regarding the things he spoke of. In addition, Job did not have the spirit of the Lord with him when he spoke -the spirit of "wisdom." Elihu was the only one speaking with wisdom before God came and rebuked Job and his "friends." Still, despite his lack of the spirit of wisdom - Job was still speaking truthfully - based on his own merit and knowledge that he had acquired within life. Or specifically, Job was speaking with pride.

Also notice that the questions God asked of Job were always regarding the understanding of various processes and how they worked.(i.e. How the earth was formed, how the beasts were created, etc) Job had no ability to answer these questions, which is probably why at the end he indeed humbled himself - and stated to God that he didn't know as much as he thought he did in 42:3.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Feb 10th 2008, 01:07 PM
Stephen I apologize for offending you. The purpose of the question was to get some common ground to discuss the Book of Job.

The statement was made by me that God had asked Job if he was going to make a contract with Satan. To me, the king over all the children of pride, the one that beholds all high things, is Satan. Whenever the sons of God came before God, Satan was there beholding it. (Job 1:6) (Job 2:1)

IMO Leviathan is another name for Satan. In light of the fact, God called him king over the children of pride, and that he beholds all high things. Job 41:4 "Will he make a COVENANT with thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?" (Remember in the garden, Satan spoke soft words to Eve.)

A covenant is a contract.

Sincerely, terrell

Job was a devoted servant of the Lord, and his humility before God at the end of the story is proof of his devoted servanthood. Despite whether or not one is prideful, humble, lives, dies, righteous, unrighteous, black, white, etc, etc, etc - we are all servants of the Lord as we will ultimately fulfill his purpose. Or as it is written:

Romans 8:28
all things God works for the good of those who love him.

Grace,

Stephen

tgallison
Feb 10th 2008, 05:26 PM
Job was a devoted servant of the Lord, and his humility before God at the end of the story is proof of his devoted servanthood. Despite whether or not one is prideful, humble, lives, dies, righteous, unrighteous, black, white, etc, etc, etc - we are all servants of the Lord as we will ultimately fulfill his purpose. Or as it is written:

Romans 8:28
all things God works for the good of those who love him.

Grace,

Stephen

Steven

Job's humility at the end of the Book would indicate that is when Job got saved. It is with a meek and contrite spirit that God accepts man.

Isaiah 66:2 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord; but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

By Job's own lips he was a hired servant.

Job 7:1-3 "Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of and hireling? As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work; So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me."

Job 14:6 "Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day."

A hired servant is a mercenary, one who works for anyone for pay. Doesn't mean that he isn't an excellent servant, and he can be blameless as well. Doesn't mean he is saved. For a hired servant does not belong to the master when his contract is fulfilled. Job was anxious for the contract to be over.

Job 3:19 "The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master." By Job's own words.

The hired servant cannot partake of the passover lamb. The passover lamb is Jesus, is it not?

Exodus 12:45 "A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof."

We see that Job was acting more as a king than a hired servant.

Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem."

Job 29:25 "I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners."

Proverbs 30:21-22 "For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;"

Jeremiah 2:14 "Is Israel a servant? is he a homeborn slave? why is he spoiled?"

Believe that scripture indicates that Job is a descendant of Ishmael

In Christ, terrell

Zorgblar
Feb 10th 2008, 05:41 PM
God did question Job as to whether or not he was going to make a contract with Satan.



terrell

Were in the book of job does God ask this question?I never remember this happening.:confused

tgallison
Feb 10th 2008, 06:51 PM
Were in the book of job does God ask this question?I never remember this happening.:confused

Zorgblar Hi

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Great dragon

Old serpent

The Devil

Satan

In this verse Satan has four names.

Revelation 9:11 "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

Abaddon

Apollyon

king

There are many more names for Satan in the bible. Not going to list them all and cannot anyway.

In Genesis chapter two we see the serpent that beguiled, or spoke soft words to Eve.

In Isaiah 27:1 we see the piercing serpent, that crooked serpent, the dragon that is in the sea. His name is leviathan.

So leviathan is described with two of the names of Satan, serpent and dragon.

In Job 41:34 leviathan is described as a king over all the children of pride, and he beholds all high things." (The one that holds the key to the bottomless pit is also described as a king) It would appear that Satan beholds all high things. When the sons of God presented themselves, Satan appeared also.

Job 41:3 "Will he make supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?" Isn't this what Satan did to Eve.

Job 41:4 "Will he make a covenant with thee? will thou take him as a servant for ever?" A covenant is a contract.

Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 10th 2008, 07:52 PM
Steven
Job 7:1-3 "Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of and hireling? As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work; So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me."

Job 14:6 "Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day."

A hired servant is a mercenary, one who works for anyone for pay. Doesn't mean that he isn't an excellent servant, and he can be blameless as well. Doesn't mean he is saved. For a hired servant does not belong to the master when his contract is fulfilled. Job was anxious for the contract to be over.


Hey Terrel,

We're all hired servants of God during the time in which he allows us to be here under his wrath, unless grace has been extended to us through Christ Jesus. As you stated above, Job was not a recepient of God's grace until the end of story, this grace is what allowed him to repent.

Regarding the contract with death, Perhaps God was stating to Job that he had no control over his life when making statements like he did in Job 14:6.(almost sounds like Job is demanding God to turn from him so he can die in that verse)

Remember in the beginning of the story God himself was the original one who allowed Satan authority over Job, stating that he could do everything to Job but take away his life. I think any reference to a contract between Job and Satan, was actually in light of the original agreement God himself had made with death(i.e Satan). So I don't think God was accusing Job of making a contract with Satan, I think he was demonstrating to Job that once again - he had little understanding regarding what was going on, and no ability to control his life/death through his own merits/righteousnous.

In Christ,

Stephen

shamrock
Feb 11th 2008, 01:04 AM
IMO Job is a descendant of Ishmael.

If you've traced this geneology, can you share it with us?


Job offered up blood sacrifices for sin, similar to Baalam's.

Job 1:5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

Job's sacrifices were like Aarons...

Leviticus 9:7
Moses then said to Aaron, "Come near to the altar and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, that you may make atonement for yourself and for the people; then make the offering for the people, that you may make atonement for them, just as the LORD has commanded."

Is there scripture which shows Balaam's similar sacrifices, which would give support to your statment?


IMO Job was a hired servant who's pay stopped.

He is never called a hired servant by God. Job is always called by God as "my servant." Would a hired servant who's pay had stopped say this...

Job 1:10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.


IMO Job did not fare well when tested by Satan. In fact Satan was right.
http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif


In the first test he passed. God said, in all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. But he failed completely the second test.

2nd test results...
Job 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.


In Job 10:3 Job charged God foolishly. He charged God with despising the work of his hands, and looking favorably on the council of the wicked.

Take a looke at the 2 verses preceeding this..

Job 10
1 "I loathe my own life; I will give full vent to my complaint; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
2 "I will say to God, 'Do not condemn me; Let me know why You contend with me.

He is not charging God with anything. He is only asking why because he doesn't understand.


After the second test, the best that could be said of Job is that he didn't sin with his lips.

But, according to what you've said thus far is that Job did sin by what he said. "He charged God foolishly, He charged God with despising the work of his hands... he cursed God's creation and so on.

The scriptures say he did not sin... and since only God knows the heart, we have to believe that Job didn't sin in thought or word because God said so.


In chapter three, Job cursed God's creation and his mother's womb.

He does not curse God's creation or his mother's womb.. He is cursing the day he was born. wishing he had never been born, because his suffering was so great.

tgallison
Feb 11th 2008, 03:24 AM
If you've traced this geneology, can you share it with us?

shamrock greetings

Since you questioned almost everything I have said, give me the opportunity to answer one question at a time.

I said in my opinion Job was a descendant of Ishmael. As you know his genealogy cannot not be traced from scripture. And it was merely my opinion. But there is circumstantial evidence.

Job was the greatest man of the East. In doing a word study of men of the East, it appeared to point to Ishmael. Did not find it pointing to anyone else.

Jeremiah 49:28 "Concerning Kedar, and concerning the kingdoms of Hazor, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon shall smite, thus saith the Lord; Arise ye, go up to Kedar, and spoil the men of the east."

Kedar was a son of Ishmael and here they are called men of the east. Also the Chaldeans were who Nebuchadrezzar sent to spoil the men of the east. It was Chaldeans who took Job's camels. Remember now I said circumstantial.

Genesis 37:25 "And they sat down to eat bread: and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold a company of Ishmeelites came from Gilead with their camels bearing spicery and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt."

In 1 Chronicles 5:10 Gilead is called the east land. Also the wise men of the east were carrying gold, frankincense, and myrrh, when they came to give presents to the baby Jesus.

Judges 6:3 "And so it was, when Israel had sown, the the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east."

Judges 6:33 (Same as above)

Judges 7:12 (Same as above)

Judges 8:10 (Similar)

In Judges 8:24 we find who the men of the east were. "And Gideon said unto them, I would desire a request of you, that ye would give me every man the earrings of his prey. (For they had golden earrings, because they were Ishmaelites.)"

Another note- Gideon said they wore golden earrings, because they were Ishmaelites. Look at what Job's friends and relatives gave him. Job 42:11 "----, and every one an earring of gold.

Genesis 25:6 "But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country."

All circumstantial, and just my opinion.

regards, terrell

Zorgblar
Feb 11th 2008, 10:24 AM
Zorgblar Hi

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Great dragon

Old serpent

The Devil

Satan

In this verse Satan has four names.

Revelation 9:11 "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

Abaddon

Apollyon

king

There are many more names for Satan in the bible. Not going to list them all and cannot anyway.

In Genesis chapter two we see the serpent that beguiled, or spoke soft words to Eve.

In Isaiah 27:1 we see the piercing serpent, that crooked serpent, the dragon that is in the sea. His name is leviathan.

So leviathan is described with two of the names of Satan, serpent and dragon.

In Job 41:34 leviathan is described as a king over all the children of pride, and he beholds all high things." (The one that holds the key to the bottomless pit is also described as a king) It would appear that Satan beholds all high things. When the sons of God presented themselves, Satan appeared also.

Job 41:3 "Will he make supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?" Isn't this what Satan did to Eve.

Job 41:4 "Will he make a covenant with thee? will thou take him as a servant for ever?" A covenant is a contract.

Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Thanks for replying and giving me the answer.

tgallison
Feb 11th 2008, 12:16 PM
Job 1:5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

Job's sacrifices were like Aarons...

Leviticus 9:7
Moses then said to Aaron, "Come near to the altar and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, that you may make atonement for yourself and for the people; then make the offering for the people, that you may make atonement for them, just as the LORD has commanded."

Is there scripture which shows Balaam's similar sacrifices, which would give support to your statment?

shamrock

The only two places where seven bullock and seven rams are offered up.

Numbers 23:1--------Job 42:8

The point being there is a connection and all three Job, Nebuchadnezzar, and Balaam, were hired servants.

The sin offering extends beyond the Levitical priesthood. It goes back to Cain and Abel.

It also shows the blood of bulls and goats saved no one.

Another point, it is ironic that Job feared his sons may have cursed God in their hearts in Job 1:5, but in Job 2:10 it goes from the heart to the lips. Seems like it gives Job a pass.

It is also ironic after the Bible says Job did not sin with his lips, the very next thing that came out of his mouth was a curse.

Job 2:10 "---In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

Job 3:1 "After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day."

terrell

tgallison
Feb 11th 2008, 12:38 PM
He is never called a hired servant by God. Job is always called by God as "my servant." Would a hired servant who's pay had stopped say this...

Job 1:10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

No Job is not called a hired servant by God. God did not say what kind of servant he was, but Job did. Was Job confused and did not understand?

Nebuchadnezzar was not called a hired servant by God either, but he was.

You ask, would a hired servant who's pay had stopped say this---

Well the very next words out of Job's mouth, after he said that, was a curse.

terrell

tgallison
Feb 11th 2008, 12:57 PM
He is not charging God with anything. He is only asking why because he doesn't understand.



But, according to what you've said thus far is that Job did sin by what he said. "He charged God foolishly, He charged God with despising the work of his hands... he cursed God's creation and so on.

The scriptures say he did not sin... and since only God knows the heart, we have to believe that Job didn't sin in thought or word because God said so.


shamrock if you keep banging your head you will get a headache.

If you choose to look at all the things that Job said with blinders, how about what God said?

Job 40:2 "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it."

Job 40:8 "Wilt thou disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?

Job condemned God.

Job disannuled God's judgment.

Job reproved God.

Job contended with God.

Job instructed God.

Job said many things against God, and many of them are recorded in the Bible.

terrell

Teke
Feb 11th 2008, 05:46 PM
shamrock greetings

Since you questioned almost everything I have said, give me the opportunity to answer one question at a time.

I said in my opinion Job was a descendant of Ishmael. As you know his genealogy cannot not be traced from scripture. And it was merely my opinion. But there is circumstantial evidence.

Job was the greatest man of the East. In doing a word study of men of the East, it appeared to point to Ishmael. Did not find it pointing to anyone else.

Jeremiah 49:28 "Concerning Kedar, and concerning the kingdoms of Hazor, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon shall smite, thus saith the Lord; Arise ye, go up to Kedar, and spoil the men of the east."

Kedar was a son of Ishmael and here they are called men of the east. Also the Chaldeans were who Nebuchadrezzar sent to spoil the men of the east. It was Chaldeans who took Job's camels. Remember now I said circumstantial.

Genesis 37:25 "And they sat down to eat bread: and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold a company of Ishmeelites came from Gilead with their camels bearing spicery and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt."

In 1 Chronicles 5:10 Gilead is called the east land. Also the wise men of the east were carrying gold, frankincense, and myrrh, when they came to give presents to the baby Jesus.

Judges 6:3 "And so it was, when Israel had sown, the the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east."

Judges 6:33 (Same as above)

Judges 7:12 (Same as above)

Judges 8:10 (Similar)

In Judges 8:24 we find who the men of the east were. "And Gideon said unto them, I would desire a request of you, that ye would give me every man the earrings of his prey. (For they had golden earrings, because they were Ishmaelites.)"

Another note- Gideon said they wore golden earrings, because they were Ishmaelites. Look at what Job's friends and relatives gave him. Job 42:11 "----, and every one an earring of gold.

Genesis 25:6 "But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country."

All circumstantial, and just my opinion.

regards, terrell

Hi Terrel, here is some further info for your consideration. I've seen no better evidence than Job is the son of Issachar (Gen. 46:13). Job's three friends were descendent's of Esau, they would therefore be contemporaries.

Eliphaz of Eman, in Idumea, was a son of Easu, and had a son called Teman, from whom his country took its name (Gen. 36:10,11). It was noted for its "wise men" (Jer. 49:7); and is mentioned with Edom (Amos 1:11,12). Compare Jer. 25:23, where both are connected with Buz, the brother of Uz (Gen. 22:21).
Eliphaz argued from the standpoint of human experience.

Bildad the Shuhite. Shuah was the sixth son of Abraham by Keturah (Gen. 25:2); and is mentioned in connection with Esau, Edom and Teman (Jer. 49:8)
Bildad argued from human tradition.

Zophar the Naamathite. Naamar (now Na'aneh, six miles south of Lod, in the lowlands of Judah).
Zophar argued from the ground of human merit.

Elihu (32:2) the Ram (Ram=Aram, related to Buz, Gen. 22:21). The ministry of Elihu, the mediator. He basically gives instruction that one cannot justify themselves as righteous, only God makes one righteous. And this is what has happened to Job. God is making him righteous.


To further put Job in perspective. Issachar was forty at the "going down to Egypt". If Job was the third son (Gen. 46:13), he would have been about twenty at that time (1706 BC). We are told he lived 140 yrs after his "double" blessing (42:10). If that double blessing included length of years, then his age would have been 70 + 140 = 210 (three seventies). His lifetime would be from 1726-1516 BC.

According to this, he was born the year after Joseph was sold, and died 119 years after the death of Joseph (in 1635 BC). When Joseph died, Job was ninety-one. If his double blessing did include length of years, then his affliction took place twenty one yrs previously, when he was seventy. His removal from Egypt to Uz must have taken place earlier.

When Job died (1516 BC) Moses was fifty five, and had been in Midian fifteen yrs (twenty five yrs before the Exodus).

This explains how Moses could have been the author of the book, and perhaps an eye and ear witness of the events it records in Midian.

tgallison
Feb 11th 2008, 07:00 PM
Hi Terrel, here is some further info for your consideration. I've seen no better evidence than Job is the son of Issachar (Gen. 46:13). Job's three friends were descendent's of Esau, they would therefore be contemporaries.

Eliphaz of Eman, in Idumea, was a son of Easu, and had a son called Teman, from whom his country took its name (Gen. 36:10,11). It was noted for its "wise men" (Jer. 49:7); and is mentioned with Edom (Amos 1:11,12). Compare Jer. 25:23, where both are connected with Buz, the brother of Uz (Gen. 22:21).
Eliphaz argued from the standpoint of human experience.

Bildad the Shuhite. Shuah was the sixth son of Abraham by Keturah (Gen. 25:2); and is mentioned in connection with Esau, Edom and Teman (Jer. 49:8)
Bildad argued from human tradition.

Zophar the Naamathite. Naamar (now Na'aneh, six miles south of Lod, in the lowlands of Judah).
Zophar argued from the ground of human merit.

Elihu (32:2) the Ram (Ram=Aram, related to Buz, Gen. 22:21). The ministry of Elihu, the mediator. He basically gives instruction that one cannot justify themselves as righteous, only God makes one righteous. And this is what has happened to Job. God is making him righteous.


To further put Job in perspective. Issachar was forty at the "going down to Egypt". If Job was the third son (Gen. 46:13), he would have been about twenty at that time (1706 BC). We are told he lived 140 yrs after his "double" blessing (42:10). If that double blessing included length of years, then his age would have been 70 + 140 = 210 (three seventies). His lifetime would be from 1726-1516 BC.

According to this, he was born the year after Joseph was sold, and died 119 years after the death of Joseph (in 1635 BC). When Joseph died, Job was ninety-one. If his double blessing did include length of years, then his affliction took place twenty one yrs previously, when he was seventy. His removal from Egypt to Uz must have taken place earlier.

When Job died (1516 BC) Moses was fifty five, and had been in Midian fifteen yrs (twenty five yrs before the Exodus).

This explains how Moses could have been the author of the book, and perhaps an eye and ear witness of the events it records in Midian.

Teke Hi

If you look at the genealogy of Cain and compare with Seth you will see many common names.

If he had been a son of Issachar and left and went off to a far country, I guess it could be possible. But then how would you account for him being numbered among his brothers in the promised land. 1 Chronicles 7:1

IMO Job is talking about Israel in Job 12:24 "He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way."

Job said he not only heard about it. He saw it.

You could be right, but the evidence does not seem to be there.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Teke
Feb 11th 2008, 07:46 PM
Teke Hi

If you look at the genealogy of Cain and compare with Seth you will see many common names.

If he had been a son of Issachar and left and went off to a far country, I guess it could be possible. But then how would you account for him being numbered among his brothers in the promised land. 1 Chronicles 7:1

IMO Job is talking about Israel in Job 12:24 "He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way."

Job said he not only heard about it. He saw it.

You could be right, but the evidence does not seem to be there.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Chronicles is an independent book. Descendent's of younger sons are contrasted with his firstborn ie. Uzzi (3,4), these names occur nowhere else proving the independence of Chronicles.
IOW Chronicles doesn't give all the names. Another instance in this particular area of Chronicles is verse 6, which says "three", Genesis 46:21 says "ten". When Chronicles was written they may have become extinct, as even in Num. 26:38 only five are mentioned.

IMO Chronicles has a few difficulties to it when dealing with only the scriptures canonized with it. The Book of Jubilees has some of the problems that Chronicles also has, but the Book of Jubilees is not canon so we don't consider it. Which leaves us to look elsewhere.:spin:

I doubt 12:24 is speaking of Israel, as "wilderness" there, in Hebrew, is that of Gen. 1:2 (Heb. tohu, in Genesis translated "without form"). wilderness=a pathless tohu
IMHO Job is speaking more along the lines of how God is the only one who brings anything into being (in the ontological sense). I'm sure that Job had come to a point when many things were apparent (he saw) to him.;)

tgallison
Feb 11th 2008, 08:15 PM
Chronicles is an independent book. Descendent's of younger sons are contrasted with his firstborn ie. Uzzi (3,4), these names occur nowhere else proving the independence of Chronicles.
IOW Chronicles doesn't give all the names. Another instance in this particular area of Chronicles is verse 6, which says "three", Genesis 46:21 says "ten". When Chronicles was written they may have become extinct, as even in Num. 26:38 only five are mentioned.

IMO Chronicles has a few difficulties to it when dealing with only the scriptures canonized with it. The Book of Jubilees has some of the problems that Chronicles also has, but the Book of Jubilees is not canon so we don't consider it. Which leaves us to look elsewhere.:spin:

I doubt 12:24 is speaking of Israel, as "wilderness" there, in Hebrew, is that of Gen. 1:2 (Heb. tohu, in Genesis translated "without form"). wilderness=a pathless tohu
IMHO Job is speaking more along the lines of how God is the only one who brings anything into being (in the ontological sense). I'm sure that Job had come to a point when many things were apparent (he saw) to him.;)

Teke

You are left then with only a common name. There are many common names in the Bible.

terrell

Teke
Feb 11th 2008, 09:24 PM
Teke

You are left then with only a common name. There are many common names in the Bible.

terrell

In Chronicles, yes. But some of what is mentioned elsewhere is identifiable. Else we are chasing shadows.

tgallison
Feb 11th 2008, 11:36 PM
In Chronicles, yes. But some of what is mentioned elsewhere is identifiable. Else we are chasing shadows.

Don't like chasing shadows. Like to think in black and white.

terrell

shamrock
Feb 13th 2008, 10:40 PM
shamrock

The only two places where seven bullock and seven rams are offered up.

Numbers 23:1--------Job 42:8

So because you see the number 7, the sacrifice was similar to Balaam's? Is that the only reason you say they are similar?

Have you read about that sacrifice and why it was being made? According to scripture Balak, King of Moab, wanted Balaam to curse the Isralites. But God refused to let Balaam do it every time he asked. But, they wouldn't take no for an answer, so Balaam & Balak made sacrifices to God in hopes God would change His mind, that Balaam could curse the Israelites. But it didn't work...

Numbers 23
17 So he (Balak) went to him (balaam) and found him standing beside his offering, with the princes of Moab. Balak asked him, "What did the LORD say?"

18 Then he uttered his oracle:
"Arise, Balak, and listen;
hear me, son of Zippor.

19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

So tell me how is Job's sacrifice similar to Balaam's? There is no comparrison at all. Just because there are mentioned 7 alters used to sacrifice 7 animals and Job having 7 sons, does not put Job's sacrifices in the catagory of Balaams.

Job 1:5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

Job's sacrifices were like Aarons...

Leviticus 9:7
Moses then said to Aaron, "Come near to the altar and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, that you may make atonement for yourself and for the people; then make the offering for the people, that you may make atonement for them, just as the LORD has commanded."

Job was interceeding for his children as Aaron interceeded for the Israelites. Balaam's sacrifice was a selfish one, wanting God to change His mind and allow him to curse the Israelites when God had told him no.


The point being there is a connection and all three Job, Nebuchadnezzar, and Balaam, were hired servants.

You know, God, Himself calls Job righteous and includes him in the company of Noah & David. But you include him in the company of Nebuchadnezzar and Balaam. Why?

19 "Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.


The sin offering extends beyond the Levitical priesthood. It goes back to Cain and Abel.

I don't understand what this has to do with the above.


It also shows the blood of bulls and goats saved no one.

How does it show this? I don't get the connection.

Besides, God commanded sacrifice back then. Must have been some reason for it or He wouldn't have commanded it. When the people sinned, God accepted these sacrifices.


Another point, it is ironic that Job feared his sons may have cursed God in their hearts in Job 1:5, but in Job 2:10 it goes from the heart to the lips. Seems like it gives Job a pass.

It is also ironic after the Bible says Job did not sin with his lips, the very next thing that came out of his mouth was a curse.

Job 2:10 "---In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

Job 3:1 "After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day."

Cursing his day is NOT cursing God. His suffering was so great He wished he had never been born, that the day of his birth be blotted out as though it never were.

God bless, Pat

tgallison
Feb 14th 2008, 12:07 AM
So because you see the number 7, the sacrifice was similar to Balaam's? Is that the only reason you say they are similar?

Have you read about that sacrifice and why it was being made? According to scripture Balak, King of Moab, wanted Balaam to curse the Isralites. But God refused to let Balaam do it every time he asked. But, they wouldn't take no for an answer, so Balaam & Balak made sacrifices to God in hopes God would change His mind, that Balaam could curse the Israelites. But it didn't work...

Numbers 23
17 So he (Balak) went to him (balaam) and found him standing beside his offering, with the princes of Moab. Balak asked him, "What did the LORD say?"

18 Then he uttered his oracle:
"Arise, Balak, and listen;
hear me, son of Zippor.

19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

So tell me how is Job's sacrifice similar to Balaam's? There is no comparrison at all. Just because there are mentioned 7 alters used to sacrifice 7 animals and Job having 7 sons, does not put Job's sacrifices in the catagory of Balaams.

Job 1:5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

Job's sacrifices were like Aarons...

Leviticus 9:7
Moses then said to Aaron, "Come near to the altar and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, that you may make atonement for yourself and for the people; then make the offering for the people, that you may make atonement for them, just as the LORD has commanded."

Job was interceeding for his children as Aaron interceeded for the Israelites. Balaam's sacrifice was a selfish one, wanting God to change His mind and allow him to curse the Israelites when God had told him no. Pat

Pat Greetings

What the sacrifices of Job and Balaam had in common was to find favor with God.

And they both failed.

terrell

shamrock
Feb 14th 2008, 12:31 AM
Pat Greetings

What the sacrifices of Job and Balaam had in common was to find favor with God.

And they both failed.

terrell

Tell me why you believe Job's failed? I know why Balaam's failed.

Pat

tgallison
Feb 14th 2008, 12:59 AM
You know, God, Himself calls Job righteous and includes him in the company of Noah & David. But you include him in the company of Nebuchadnezzar and Balaam. Why?

19 "Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.Pat

The difference between Balaam and Job was, Balaam sinned knowing God and Job sinned not knowing God.

They both had heard the words of God, but only Balaam had knowledge of God.

Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear:----."

Numbers 24:16 "He hath said, which heard the words of God,---."

Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Numbers 24:16 "------and knew the knowledge of the most High,---."

Balaam was on a speaking basis with God, Job was not.

Numbers 22:8 "And he said unto them, Lodge here this night, and I will bring you word again, as the Lord shall speak unto me: and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam."

Job 23:3-4 "Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat! I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments."

Job 33:6-7 "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee."

Job had asked for a mediator, one that wouldn't make him afraid. Job said I will fill my mouth with arguments. Job opened not his mouth to Elihu in all six chapters. He could not answer one word. It was because God was speaking through Elihu. God honored Job's request in giving him a mediator.

God is no respecter of persons. Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no repecter of persons:"

Elihu said to Job, ("wilt thou condemn him that is most just?)

God said to Job, ("wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?")

What if Stephen had been a Job?

Acts 7:60 "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen would not condemn sinners. Job had condemned God.

terrell

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 01:10 AM
God is no respecter of persons. Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no repecter of persons:"

Elihu said to Job, ("wilt thou condemn him that is most just?)

God said to Job, ("wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?")

What if Stephen had been a Job?

Acts 7:60 "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen would not condemn sinners. Job had condemned God.

terrell

Other than taking the verse about respecters of persons out of context, I agree with the summary of Job. I wouldn't exactly say he failed since he triumphs at the end, but he did stumble badly for a great many chapters.

tgallison
Feb 14th 2008, 02:22 PM
Other than taking the verse about respecters of persons out of context, I agree with the summary of Job. I wouldn't exactly say he failed since he triumphs at the end, but he did stumble badly for a great many chapters.

Naphal Greetings

Perhaps I did take Act 10:34 out of context, just threw it in there.

Job said to Zophar, "Will you accept his person? will you contend for God. He will surely reprove you if ye do secretly accept persons.

Elihu said to Job, "Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. For I know not to give flattering titles: in so doing my maker would soon take me away."

Elihu said to Job, "Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly? How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more that the poor? for they all are the work of his hands."

Perhaps you are looking at this in light of Jacob and Esau. I guess it is a discussion in and of itself.

terrell