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Zorgblar
Feb 7th 2008, 12:23 AM
If you was in heaven and you saw one of your childern suffering in hell and you asked God if they could come to heaven and he said yes but only if you CHANGED PLACES with them would you do it?I don't have any childern yet but i think that i WOULD NOT change places with my child if this was happening to me.

RevLogos
Feb 7th 2008, 12:51 AM
What does this tell you and why?


Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Seeker of truth
Feb 7th 2008, 12:54 AM
I would not give up my Salvation for anyone! I thought we would forget any loved ones who were not saved anyway.

danield
Feb 7th 2008, 12:57 AM
Your question is trying to test the how much love you have for God vs. how much Love you have for your children. Most Christians love people unconditionally and they adore their children above all people. However, Christians will never put anything above our Lord God. When we submit ourselves to hell we depart from our lord forever even if it is for the best intentions it is totally against what we believe. God judges men’s hearts perfectly so their will be no mistake in his decisions. If they are supposed to be there, they will be there. Your mother or father can not negotiate with God to get their children there. If you are looking for a question to test how much people love their children, I think a better question would be would you give your kidney or other vital organ to your children to save their earthly life over their own life. And I think the answer would be an overwhelmingly yes to that. Look at what Abraham went through in his ultimate trial. God knows how much love a parent has for their children. The test is not weather you love your children or not but weather you love God more than your children or anything else on earth.

militarywife
Feb 7th 2008, 12:58 AM
I do not believe we will be aware of that situation.

Zorgblar
Feb 7th 2008, 01:01 AM
What does this tell you and why?

It says to me if you do not love God more then you love anyone else including your family your not worthy to be a follower of God.Atlest that's what it's saying to me.

Zorgblar
Feb 7th 2008, 01:03 AM
I do not believe we will be aware of that situation.

That's what i believe as well.

Athanasius
Feb 7th 2008, 01:05 AM
If you was in heaven and you saw one of your childern suffering in hell and you asked God if they could come to heaven and he said yes but only if you CHANGED PLACES with them would you do it?I don't have any childern yet but i think that i WOULD NOT change places with my child if this was happening to me.

The 'emotional' side of me would want to say yes.
In fact, there was a time when I was younger where I would have said yes, if you had asked the question about my younger brother.

But, no, I wouldn't. And as I've seen mentioned here previously, I don't believe we're going to be seeing people punished in Hell.

gsnewwrld
Feb 7th 2008, 01:16 AM
THis would be torment would it not like I have said before there is no pain or sadness and I don't believe in an eternal torment of a hell so I think before you post thihngs ask God to show you 1st then read in locations like Revelation and stuff then post your question. To put your salvation in the hands of humans and answers to questions like this is very dangerous

Zorgblar
Feb 7th 2008, 01:18 AM
To put your salvation in the hands of humans and answers to questions like this is very dangerous

I never thought of it that way.

Nihil Obstat
Feb 7th 2008, 01:24 AM
If you was in heaven and you saw one of your childern suffering in hell and you asked God if they could come to heaven and he said yes but only if you CHANGED PLACES with them would you do it?I don't have any childern yet but i think that i WOULD NOT change places with my child if this was happening to me.

Are you familiar with Ex. 32:32 and Rom. 9:3...? Or Rom. 5:8...!

Zorgblar
Feb 7th 2008, 01:31 AM
Are you familiar with Ex. 32:32 and Rom. 9:3...? Or Rom. 5:8...!

Yes i am.In the verses you listed paul and moses both say that they would rather be cursed by God and suffer eternal damnation then to have the people thir trying to save get cusred and damned instead.

divaD
Feb 7th 2008, 01:33 AM
If you was in heaven and you saw one of your childern suffering in hell and you asked God if they could come to heaven and he said yes but only if you CHANGED PLACES with them would you do it?I don't have any childern yet but i think that i WOULD NOT change places with my child if this was happening to me.



I've got an even better question. Those that believe a loving, merciful God would torment their children in hell forever, why don't they ask the Lord if they can to do the honors of casting them into the lake of fire themselves?

Pretty insane idea isn't it? Yet they think the Lord Himself could do this. They'll get thrown into the lake of fire alright, not to be tormented forever, but to be fully destroyed, however long that takes.

danield
Feb 7th 2008, 01:42 AM
I've got an even better question. Those that believe a loving, merciful God would torment their children in hell forever, why don't they ask the Lord if they can to do the honors of casting them into the lake of fire themselves?

Pretty insane idea isn't it? Yet they think the Lord Himself could do this. They'll get thrown into the lake of fire alright, not to be tormented forever, but to be fully destroyed, however long that takes.


I am not sure I follow this :hmm:

Zorgblar
Feb 7th 2008, 01:44 AM
They'll get thrown into the lake of fire alright, not to be tormented forever, but to be fully destroyed, however long that takes.

Were in the bible does it state that the wicked are destoryed in the lake of fire?I have NEVER read this ANYWERE in the bible.:confused

Partaker of Christ
Feb 7th 2008, 02:03 AM
Paul:

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

[accursed] [G331]
anathema
From G394; a (religious) ban or (concretely) excommunicated (thing or person): - accursed, anathema, curse, X great.

and Moses:

Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

From a hypothetical view:
What it shall be when we are in heaven, I don't know
But at this time on earth, I would most dare to believe that I would for my wife, my children and especially for my grandchildren.


Apart from Christ, These are of the greatest gifts that God has given me, and all that I am, and all that He has given me are His.

As the Father is the Head of Christ, and Christ is the Head of me, I am the head of my wife, and my children, and my childrens children.
I have faith to believe that when God saved me, He also saved my seed.

As the head of the family, I am His steward of the gifts and callings.

divaD
Feb 7th 2008, 02:31 AM
Were in the bible does it state that the wicked are destoryed in the lake of fire?I have NEVER read this ANYWERE in the bible.:confused



What you really need to ask yourself, where does it say in the Bible that the wicked are tormented forever? I'm sure you can come up with all kinds of places, but you'll be taking the Word of God out of context to do so. Like I've already asked, if one believes this, then why not request to cast them in yourself? Afterall, it's your idea, not the Lord's. Endless torment for humans is not taught in the Bible, this is man's ideas, not God's.

I see no need to debate this issue, because it's already been debated to death, but I do see the need to make a point to those that are willing to see it. And my point is, if you truly believe that the Lord could cast one of your dearly loved ones into a fire of endless torment, then you shouldn't have any problem with wanting to cast them in there yourselves, otherwise you would be doing EVERYTHING in your power 24/7 to keep them from there.

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 03:10 AM
Hi Z. I am going to move this to anything goes.

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 03:13 AM
Someone above already pointed it out but Paul seemed willing to do something like that while he was here on earth but God wouldn't let him. Moses made a similar offer to God for Israel. But God wouldn't let him either.

While I think in heaven we will know our relatives, I am not sure the relationship will be the same. In other words, I am not sure we will love our sons, daughters, moms, dads, etc. any more or less than we will all our Christian brothers and sisters up there.

RevLogos
Feb 7th 2008, 04:20 AM
Someone above already pointed it out but Paul seemed willing to do something like that while he was here on earth but God wouldn't let him. Moses made a similar offer to God for Israel. But God wouldn't let him either.

While I think in heaven we will know our relatives, I am not sure the relationship will be the same. In other words, I am not sure we will love our sons, daughters, moms, dads, etc. any more or less than we will all our Christian brothers and sisters up there.

I didn't really like the hypothetical posed on the OP because we will never run in to this situation. We cannot bargain our salvation for another. Once someone dies, they will be judged. We cannot petition God to change His mind.

But a way to ask the same question in the realm of the possible might be:

In the tribulation, you may be given a choice of watching your family get raped and slaughtered, or accepting the mark of the beast. What would you do?

I<3Jesus
Feb 7th 2008, 01:55 PM
I'm going to agree that I wouldn't give up my salvation. I am a very emotional person and I desperately cling to the hope that someday I will have a family. I go out of my way to try and be a part of those who are left lives, but I always get burnt. If you asked me if I would switch places for any of them my immediate answer would be no. I am kind of tired of trying to be there for people who only care about you when they need something. When we do have kids, my fiance' and I plan to raise them in a Christian household, so hopefully we will raise them right and this will be a moot point.

RevLogos
Feb 7th 2008, 07:10 PM
...I am kind of tired of trying to be there for people who only care about you when they need something. ...

I'm sure a lot of us have had friends like that. Imagine how Jesus feels! Many "Christians" only pray when they get themselves in trouble and need help. That's no way to build up a true friendship.

Amazedgrace21
Feb 7th 2008, 08:43 PM
This particular question has come up more than once in some of my circles..and it always tugs at my heart.

As a Christian, I genuinely have no reservation about laying down my life for someone else..but our salvation is something so different..

Please forgive the muddled explanation, but for me personally, I was so convicted to the core of my soul by what Christ did for us, and on such a personal level..in every sense of the way I felt bound to lay down my life for Him..

As a daughter, a sister, a mother and a wife at one time..I would have and continue to be wiling to sacrifice my life to preserve anothers life..but whn it comes down to the bottom line, I genuinely believe my soul, in this context does not belong to me..it's not mine to 'give away', it belongs to Christ. I gave it to Him freely..

The way I see this through simply human eyes..those that are going to hell made a choice, just as I did..and it was final..

Were I even willing to surrender my soul in exchange for theirs to escape the consequences of what they will face one day in hell..

I simply believe it could not happen for two reasons..my empathy for their circumstances would be present but;

1. My soul genuinely does not belong to me, I have surrendered it to Christ for the balance of my eternal life in Him..I gave it up to Him for the very reason, He alone is worthy and deserves the only gesture I could make to acknowledge I understood and was so grateful for what He had done for me. This was never about gaining heaven or avoiding hell for me..but so much more..it was purely acknowledging the truth He is my God, nor can I ever deserve what I have gained from the price that was paid for me to learn this.

2. If you stop and think about it..those who end up in hell, it is not becasue they could not have this..but they insanely ( IMHO), don't want this..it's not about wanting to be in heaven or not wanting to be in hell what ever these things may represent to them..they simply do not want any part of God..

If Christ's sacrifice was not enough for them,then nothing would be..and if I understand what Christ has shared, there is no one who will end up in hell for any other reason than ultimately, no matter how many chances they were given, no matter what the stakes are..they would never, ever accept Christ as their Lord and Savior..

At most or at best it is possible to buy some time for one of my loved ones or some one else by surrendering my life and with the hope they will use this time to make a different choice if they have not accepted Christ out of ignorance born out of circumstances in life..I was such a person for the first 20 years of my life.

Yet someone who is in hell is not there out of ignorance..so I could not betray the one who laid down His life for me..even if it was my own child.I say this knowing I would be in effect putting another's child innocently to death on a cross when that already failed to move my own child to stop being the one who would do this "to that child".

Nothing is worth dying for, if its not worth living for IMHO..there is a cetainty that I can only explain is from God about these things..and as I grow older with time and in my walk as a child of God..things just become more abundantly clear and solidified in respect to trusting Him on these matter's..Christ had to die on that cross to defeat sin, and there is "the reason" present that we sinners need Him as we do "now".

That remains true now, as it has been all along..it's true while I am alive, while my loved ones are still alive and will always be true after we are long gone..what determines if someone accepts or rejects Christ is always a matter of freewill, that and where we all end up in eternity as I also understand it is because our final choice was the only choice we would have made no matter how many chances we were given..

God would never be able to say "go ahead and change places" with some one in hell..not if we are truly His child..it is only because of who we are "in Christ", what makes us His..


This is what I share with other's...it's out of my hands..and will remain so for the balance of eternity...the lie is that even if I could chose them over God..it would only mean we both would end up in hell for the same reason.:(That the bottom line is I can't go back and undo the choice I made already, nor do I want to, or I would never have made that choice to begin with..that they still can if this is what they sincerely want..but not me...it's a done deal that was sealed by the word of God and the blood of Christ.:hug:

danield
Feb 7th 2008, 10:38 PM
I am not sure if people are getting the term children mixed up with small children and grown people who are your children. I hold true that the small children are indeed held in high standing with our Lord and it is only until someone becomes of age where they can distinguish between good and bad does the salvation issue becomes paramount. With that said I do not think we have any control over someone else’s free will to decide what they believe in their life. We may have great intentions and guide our children to the best path we know how but when it comes down to it, salvation is a personal choice that each of us has to make. Also know that we can only plant the seed, and I know every Christian does this with their children when they are young. As far as trading my soul for my children soul, I think this is a horrible question to even ponder, and I know God would never ask that question because he does not bargain for your soul, ever.