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View Full Version : Job 20 --Need some clarification, please.



tryinghard
Feb 8th 2008, 09:32 PM
I'm struggling with the lines in italics below:


18"He (CK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13345CK))returns what he has attained
And cannot swallow it;
As to the riches of his trading,
He cannot even enjoy them.
19"For he has (CL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13346CL))oppressed and forsaken the poor;
He has seized a house which he has not built.
20"Because he knew no quiet within him,
He does (CM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13347CM))not retain anything he desires.
21"Nothing remains for him to devour,
Therefore (CN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13348CN))his prosperity does not endure.
1. What does "knowing quiet within him" mean, in relation to not retaining anything he desires? Is the "quiet within him" related to finding satisfaction with what you already have, rather than being greedy? If so, why does that mean that he therefore doesn't retain anything he desires? Thoughts/input would be greatly appreciated.

2. What does 20:21 mean? Why does his prosperity not endure because there is nothing remaining for him to devour? I'm going to presume that in this case devour means consume or collect...I believe that what is being talked about is the rich man who has everything...but if he has everything (from a worldly standpoint), why does his prosperity (in this lifetime) not endure? Or is that the point...that he can't take it with him, and God's not going to be impressed if he hasn't led a proper life in the first place...? I just find the word "therefore" at the beginning of that passage confusing, as it appears to be because of the fact that he has devoured everything as a result his prosperity will not endure. Can anyone shed some light on this one?

Overall, I'm really struggling with the conversation between Job and his friends. It seems like his friends are accusing him of being wicked and "having it coming", and yet by all accounts, Job was a very good man (which is why Satan was allowed to test him in the first place). As for his friends, can they possibly imagine what Job has been through? Why are they being so hard on him? Or am I completely missing the point?

tgallison
Feb 8th 2008, 11:53 PM
I'm struggling with the lines in italics below:

18"He (CK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13345CK))returns what he has attained
And cannot swallow it;
As to the riches of his trading,
He cannot even enjoy them.
19"For he has (CL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13346CL))oppressed and forsaken the poor;
He has seized a house which he has not built.
20"Because he knew no quiet within him,
He does (CM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13347CM))not retain anything he desires.
21"Nothing remains for him to devour,
Therefore (CN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13348CN))his prosperity does not endure. 1. What does "knowing quiet within him" mean, in relation to not retaining anything he desires? Is the "quiet within him" related to finding satisfaction with what you already have, rather than being greedy? If so, why does that mean that he therefore doesn't retain anything he desires? Thoughts/input would be greatly appreciated.

2. What does 20:21 mean? Why does his prosperity not endure because there is nothing remaining for him to devour? I'm going to presume that in this case devour means consume or collect...I believe that what is being talked about is the rich man who has everything...but if he has everything (from a worldly standpoint), why does his prosperity (in this lifetime) not endure? Or is that the point...that he can't take it with him, and God's not going to be impressed if he hasn't led a proper life in the first place...? I just find the word "therefore" at the beginning of that passage confusing, as it appears to be because of the fact that he has devoured everything as a result his prosperity will not endure. Can anyone shed some light on this one?

Overall, I'm really struggling with the conversation between Job and his friends. It seems like his friends are accusing him of being wicked and "having it coming", and yet by all accounts, Job was a very good man (which is why Satan was allowed to test him in the first place). As for his friends, can they possibly imagine what Job has been through? Why are they being so hard on him? Or am I completely missing the point?

tryinghard Hi

Knowing peace within means just that. Do you have peace within, and if so what does it mean to you?

Job's three friends were hard on him, because they knew him best.

Job said several things that could be enlightening. Job 29:17 "And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth."

Don't know that Paul ever plucked the spoil out of anyones teeth, but he did persecute Christians. He was there when Stephen was stoned. Yet Paul declared he was blameless before the pure law of God. Philippians 3:6 "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

Paul did not know peace in his heart. Not till after he met Jesus.

Study Job 30:1-8. It seems there were these men that Job considered dogs, (sort of like how the Jews consider Gentiles,) that died and were no longer of value to him, and their famished children now had Job in derision.

If you set aside the first two chapters and the last chapter, and read the chapters in between, it will make it a lot easier to understand the first two chapters and the last chapter.

best regards, terrell

IBWatching
Feb 9th 2008, 01:19 AM
...Overall, I'm really struggling with the conversation between Job and his friends. It seems like his friends are accusing him of being wicked and "having it coming", and yet by all accounts, Job was a very good man (which is why Satan was allowed to test him in the first place). As for his friends, can they possibly imagine what Job has been through? Why are they being so hard on him? Or am I completely missing the point?

If you want to know what God thought of his friends:


Job 42:7 It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.

The hearts of Job's friends were not right toward him and they could only offer the world's assessment of what had happened to him, mixed with some self righteous judgment of Job. Not that much different than some in the Church do towards those who have stumbled, don't you think? Instead of trying to restore Job in Love and pray that they didn't befall the same fate, they found it easier to judge. Some things never change.

tgallison
Feb 9th 2008, 02:35 AM
If you want to know what God thought of his friends:



The hearts of Job's friends were not right toward him and they could only offer the world's assessment of what had happened to him, mixed with some self righteous judgment of Job. Not that much different than some in the Church do towards those who have stumbled, don't you think? Instead of trying to restore Job in Love and pray that they didn't befall the same fate, they found it easier to judge. Some things never change.

IBWatching

What would you say the words were that Job spoke that were right concerning God?

terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 9th 2008, 05:01 AM
IBWatching

What would you say the words were that Job spoke that were right concerning God?

terrellI vote for this passage:

(Job 42:5-6 KJV) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. {6} Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

tgallison
Feb 9th 2008, 01:10 PM
I vote for this passage:

(Job 42:5-6 KJV) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. {6} Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Mograce2U

That is the point. It was the last sentence that Job said. And that is where God found fault with Job's three friends. Repentance and accepting God's salvation is what the whole Bible is all about. God sent his son to take on our sins. There is no salvation outside of that. There is no hope.

The Book of Job is about a man who was given everything, and thought he had earned it. It is about every man who is comfortable, and cannot see his end. Men who have not accepted the last Adam and will die in their sins.

It is about God sending a witness, a messenger, one among a thousand, to explain to Job that he needed God's righteousness.

It is about God being merciful, and allowing Satan to attack him, that Job might stop to consider his soul was heading for the pit. And that there was a ransom waiting for him, he just had to repent and accept it.

In the end Job was given a new life. It was a rebirth, a full lifespan on earth. His flesh became as one out of the womb.

terrell

IBWatching
Feb 9th 2008, 03:26 PM
Mograce2U

That is the point. It was the last sentence that Job said. And that is where God found fault with Job's three friends. Repentance and accepting God's salvation is what the whole Bible is all about. God sent his son to take on our sins. There is no salvation outside of that. There is no hope.

The Book of Job is about a man who was given everything, and thought he had earned it. It is about every man who is comfortable, and cannot see his end. Men who have not accepted the last Adam and will die in their sins.

It is about God sending a witness, a messenger, one among a thousand, to explain to Job that he needed God's righteousness.

It is about God being merciful, and allowing Satan to attack him, that Job might stop to consider his soul was heading for the pit. And that there was a ransom waiting for him, he just had to repent and accept it.

In the end Job was given a new life. It was a rebirth, a full lifespan on earth. His flesh became as one out of the womb.

terrell

Except for the part about Job thinking he had earned his riches (God deemed him Righteous in spite of it), I agree with what you have said here. As far as someone who thought they had earned everything God had allowed them, Nebuchadnezzar is a much better example.

I saw humility in Job's words throughout the book. Not so with his friends. If we are to approach God for forgiveness, it has to be from a state of humility. In the case of Nebuchadnezzar, God did the humbling for him.

tgallison
Feb 9th 2008, 04:01 PM
Except for the part about Job thinking he had earned his riches (God deemed him Righteous in spite of it), I agree with what you have said here. As far as someone who thought they had earned everything God had allowed them, Nebuchadnezzar is a much better example.

I saw humility in Job's words throughout the book. Not so with his friends. If we are to approach God for forgiveness, it has to be from a state of humility. In the case of Nebuchadnezzar, God did the humbling for him.

IBWatching

Is there any righteousness outside of God's? Can man be righteous in and of himself? And if so, what would one have to do, what would be the requirements for him to be deemed righteous?

terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 9th 2008, 05:51 PM
IBWatching

Is there any righteousness outside of God's? Can man be righteous in and of himself? And if so, what would one have to do, what would be the requirements for him to be deemed righteous?

terrellHi Terrell,
Job is a story about a man of faith who faces the trials of this life allowed by God to perfect that faith. God is not declaring him righteous in His sight apart from that faith which Job had.

(Job 1:8-9 KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? {9} Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job's understanding of God was what was not yet perfect. And this needed to be revealed to him as well as to the devil and his friends who accused him. Job had done no wrong to bring this upon himself. Yet his leaning upon self-righteous is what came forth. The devil accuses him falsely - since he did not know this about Job.

The devil hopes to make Job's faith in God fail by afflicting him. But God actually strengthens Job's faith in Him thru that same trial. And in the end it is not only stronger, but based soley upon the One who holds his life in His hands.

In the beginning Job was trusting in his works too which can be seen in his continual offerings for his children who he feared might sin in the sight of God. But in the end it is his faith and nothing else which receives God's blessing. And this Job realized when his perspective was corrected and he repents.

Then Job performs as a priest for his friends, now depending only upon the mercy and grace of God and not the works he was doing.

Which we see had nothing to do with keeping the devil from attacking him anyway. We do tend to think that God "owes" us for the good things we do in His service. And what we think is that He then owes us His blessing. But God blesses whom He wills. And sometimes that blessing comes in disguise and not in the material way we think it ought. What Job held fast to was his integrity in this trial, and he never blamed God for his troubles. He held fast to the faith that he had and in the end received more than he expected at the first before this trial came upon him.

Like you said - a new life, and a steadfast faith in the mercy of God who raises the dead. Job's faith was founded upon the hope of the gospel and the resurrection of the dead. Which was the OT hope in Messiah.

(Job 19:25-27 KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: {26} And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: {27} Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

This is the same hope that sustained him through his trial - as it does us. But we will never have to face what Job did from Satan, since he was cast down at the cross and can not come before the Lord to make his false accusations against us anymore.

bjones
Feb 9th 2008, 08:36 PM
Hi Terrell,
Job is a story about a man of faith who faces the trials of this life allowed by God to perfect that faith. God is not declaring him righteous in His sight apart from that faith which Job had.

(Job 1:8-9 KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? {9} Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job's understanding of God was what was not yet perfect. And this needed to be revealed to him as well as to the devil and his friends who accused him. Job had done no wrong to bring this upon himself. Yet his leaning upon self-righteous is what came forth. The devil accuses him falsely - since he did not know this about Job.

The devil hopes to make Job's faith in God fail by afflicting him. But God actually strengthens Job's faith in Him thru that same trial. And in the end it is not only stronger, but based soley upon the One who holds his life in His hands.

In the beginning Job was trusting in his works too which can be seen in his continual offerings for his children who he feared might sin in the sight of God. But in the end it is his faith and nothing else which receives God's blessing. And this Job realized when his perspective was corrected and he repents.

Then Job performs as a priest for his friends, now depending only upon the mercy and grace of God and not the works he was doing.

Which we see had nothing to do with keeping the devil from attacking him anyway. We do tend to think that God "owes" us for the good things we do in His service. And what we think is that He then owes us His blessing. But God blesses whom He wills. And sometimes that blessing comes in disguise and not in the material way we think it ought. What Job held fast to was his integrity in this trial, and he never blamed God for his troubles. He held fast to the faith that he had and in the end received more than he expected at the first before this trial came upon him.

Like you said - a new life, and a steadfast faith in the mercy of God who raises the dead. Job's faith was founded upon the hope of the gospel and the resurrection of the dead. Which was the OT hope in Messiah.

(Job 19:25-27 KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: {26} And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: {27} Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

This is the same hope that sustained him through his trial - as it does us. But we will never have to face what Job did from Satan, since he was cast down at the cross and can not come before the Lord to make his false accusations against us anymore.

Good post. Have you considered substituting Christ for Job, and the law (the Word of God in the OT) for the three friends. Everything that the three friends said is true, under the law, but did not apply to Christ. Christ was made perfect, learned obedience, through the things he suffered, just as Job was.

When Peter understood that Jesus was the Son of God, he could not comprehend how or why he should die. As a shadow of Christ, the law is accusing Job:Christ, effectively saying "You are the son of man, why SHOULD't you die."

When Job cries out "Why are you not hearing my defense" you can almost hear Jesus cry on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?"

Now consider, where was Satan when this happened? He was "walking" on the earth. In the shadows, this represents before Satan was cursed to crawl on his belly. It shows that the decision to tempt Christ in every way possible, was made before the fall.

As you meditate on Job as a shadow of Christ, many other dots will connect.

Mograce2U
Feb 9th 2008, 10:27 PM
Good post. Have you considered substituting Christ for Job, and the law (the Word of God in the OT) for the three friends. Everything that the three friends said is true, under the law, but did not apply to Christ. Christ was made perfect, learned obedience, through the things he suffered, just as Job was.

When Peter understood that Jesus was the Son of God, he could not comprehend how or why he should die. As a shadow of Christ, the law is accusing Job:Christ, effectively saying "You are the son of man, why SHOULD't you die."

When Job cries out "Why are you not hearing my defense" you can almost hear Jesus cry on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?"

Now consider, where was Satan when this happened? He was "walking" on the earth. In the shadows, this represents before Satan was cursed to crawl on his belly. It shows that the decision to tempt Christ in every way possible, was made before the fall.

As you meditate on Job as a shadow of Christ, many other dots will connect.Hi bjones,
I am sure we can connect lots of dots for our understanding of scripture as we consider the whole counsel of it that we now have. But if we stick to the story about what happened to Job as it is told to us - there is plenty there already to grow us in our knowledge of Jesus as God.

Job and his 3 friends offer the most common arguments that men make in their limited human understanding of God. I don't see the need to spiritualize the text beyond where scripture points us. Satan is a real being whom Job had to face. There is nothing I have seen to make him a type for the law of Moses. To do so seems it would turn the story into a parable and takes away our ability to see ourselves in Job's place.

Now if you have clear examples from the story where we ought to do this, I am willing to look at them!

(1 Cor 10:11 KJV) Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

tgallison
Feb 9th 2008, 10:37 PM
Hi Terrell,
Job is a story about a man of faith who faces the trials of this life allowed by God to perfect that faith. God is not declaring him righteous in His sight apart from that faith which Job had.

(Job 1:8-9 KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? {9} Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job's understanding of God was what was not yet perfect. And this needed to be revealed to him as well as to the devil and his friends who accused him. Job had done no wrong to bring this upon himself. Yet his leaning upon self-righteous is what came forth. The devil accuses him falsely - since he did not know this about Job.

The devil hopes to make Job's faith in God fail by afflicting him. But God actually strengthens Job's faith in Him thru that same trial. And in the end it is not only stronger, but based soley upon the One who holds his life in His hands.

In the beginning Job was trusting in his works too which can be seen in his continual offerings for his children who he feared might sin in the sight of God. But in the end it is his faith and nothing else which receives God's blessing. And this Job realized when his perspective was corrected and he repents.

Then Job performs as a priest for his friends, now depending only upon the mercy and grace of God and not the works he was doing.

Which we see had nothing to do with keeping the devil from attacking him anyway. We do tend to think that God "owes" us for the good things we do in His service. And what we think is that He then owes us His blessing. But God blesses whom He wills. And sometimes that blessing comes in disguise and not in the material way we think it ought. What Job held fast to was his integrity in this trial, and he never blamed God for his troubles. He held fast to the faith that he had and in the end received more than he expected at the first before this trial came upon him.

Like you said - a new life, and a steadfast faith in the mercy of God who raises the dead. Job's faith was founded upon the hope of the gospel and the resurrection of the dead. Which was the OT hope in Messiah.

(Job 19:25-27 KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: {26} And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: {27} Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

This is the same hope that sustained him through his trial - as it does us. But we will never have to face what Job did from Satan, since he was cast down at the cross and can not come before the Lord to make his false accusations against us anymore.

Robin

Where is Job's faith? He accused God of keeping the light from him and hedging him in, when in fact God had taken the hedge away. (Job 3:23)

Job said he wanted to be where he was free from his master. (Job 3:19)

Job asked God to destroy him. (Job 6:9) Where was Job's faith and hope.

Job asked God, why he would not pardon his transgressions, and take away his iniquity. Job was saying his sins were not forgiven. (Job 7:21)

Job asked God, how can a man be just with God? (Job 9:2)

Job said, "I should have been as though I had not been:" He said to God leave me alone. (Job 10:19-20)

Job said, "But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?" (Job 14:10)

Job said, "The waters wear the stones; thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth: and thou destroyest the hope of man." (Job 14:19)

Job said "And where now is my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust." (Job 17:15-16)

JOB CHARGED GOD FOOLISHLY

Job said, "For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause. He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness." (Job 9:17-18)

Job said, "If the scourge slay suddenly he will laugh at the trial of the innocent." (Job 9:23)

Job said, "Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?" (Job 10:3)

Job said, "Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net. Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud but there is no judgment. He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths. He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head. He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree." (Job 19:6-10)

Before you say you can feel Job's pain, think about the charges he is making against God.

terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 9th 2008, 11:03 PM
Terrell,
I look at Job's diliemma similar to how I look at David's Psalms. David often must lay ahold of his faith in God before his perspective is brought into line with the truth he knows - which results in his praise of God. Is Job any different? He has no idea what has happened to him or why, and while he expresses his point of view - never does he deny his hope in God, even though that hope has grown dim. I see a man struggling to keep his faith in the only One he knows who can help him during the toughest trial of his life - facing his own death. A road each of us has to face alone in this world - until God speaks to our hearts and we find we are not alone after all.

I don't see that Job said anything that wasn't true from his perspective. God was permitting Satan to do this to him!

Job starts out well:

(Job 2:10 KJV) But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

But Elihu finally nails what Job's friends provoked him into doing:

(Job 34:35-37 KJV) Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. {36} My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men. {37} For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

(Job 35:1-3 KJV) Elihu spake moreover, and said, {2} Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's? {3} For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?

This trial to the end would bring about his restoration. The story doesn't end with leaving Job in this condition of blaming God. I think that is important to see. Job starts with his integrity holding him fast, falls into sin, sees God more clearly when he is convicted and responds with repentance and is restored with a deeper more steadfast faith in God. Is this not what happens to us in our own walk of faith?

bjones
Feb 9th 2008, 11:56 PM
Now if you have clear examples from the story where we ought to do this, I am willing to look at them!

(1 Cor 10:11 KJV) Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


The fact is plain: the Apostle Peter would get an “F” if he preached his Acts 2 sermon in Moody’s class, “Communication of Biblical Truth”. The professor, vigilant to eliminate any interpretation that went beyond the “original authorial intent,” would give the classic critique to the apostle: “this text used out of its context!” Of course, because Peter is an inspired author—in this case a preacher—such an imaginative scenario reveals the despairing gulf between the methods of exegesis of the modern conservative bible student, and the exegetical methods of the NT writers. How do evangelical scholars reconcile this? One on hand, how can they honor the inspired exegesis of the NT writers, and then hypocritically reject the same methodology for themselves? Conversely; how could evangelicals allow an open door for exegesis to turn into a literary or “Spirit lead” Picasso-painting of meaning, significance and application of the Word of God? The tension is real, and in attempting to resolve it there are four major schools that give clear responses to the issue[1]. Elsewhere:
The crucial weakness of the single intent school is not so much the complexity of its methodology theoretically, but the difficulty it has practically in solving the sophistication of the New Testament citations. Several New Testaments texts offer an extremely difficult challenge for the single intent view. 1 Peter 1:10-12, Peter writes “unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven.” This verse seems to be almost a direct contradiction to the idea that the OT authors understood completely the things that were prophesying[4]. Douglas Moo writes, “…he [Kaiser] does not allow sufficiently for the intention of the divine author of Scripture for the “added” meaning that a text takes on as a result of the ongoing canonical process.”[5] The plethora of OT citations in the NT gives a strong impression that the single-intent school may be jeopardizing a legitimate meaning that the NT is referencing. [emphasis mine] David Niblack (http://www.davidniblack.com/articles/New%20Testament%20use%20of%20the%20Old%20Testament .htm), “The Use of the Old Testament in the New”]


Jesus said that all the scriptures spoke of him, so I believe we are allowed to look for him everywhere. It has at times been called the Christological principle. A very clear example of a shadow that has nothing to do with the literal-historical account is that of Tamar posted elsewhere. The same hermeneutic that exposes the Tamar shadow exposes the shadows in Job.

I am currently working on the shadows in Exodus. When I am finished, I would be happy to enter into a collaboration on Job with someone who does not deny sensus plenior on an a priori basis.

It is easy to deny that sensus plenior exists. But making an a priori statement that they don't exist places one in the same camp as the atheist trying to assert that God does not exist. One example disproves the assertion.

It also is not "spiritualizing" it. More stringent rules apply. The shadows in no way rid us of the literal-historical account but form a double entendre or sensus plenior which the light of Christ reveals as we look back at the OT accounts.

As you said, you have placed man at the center of your interpretation. The shadows place Christ at the center.

If you find no value in seeing Christ in Job, I am not going to twist your arm.

Since this is all OT, I'll be happy to continue this discussion elsewhere.

On topic:

Many of the things you pointed out could be said of Christ. There is obvious allusion to being "born again" that someone else made which is easy to see as his resurrection. And if you but ponder it, you will find great delight in seeing hints of Christ's ministry in the story.

Sorry it troubles you so.

bjones
Feb 10th 2008, 12:00 AM
Satan is a real being whom Job had to face. There is nothing I have seen to make him a type for the law of Moses. To do so seems it would turn the story into a parable and takes away our ability to see ourselves in Job's place.

I said the three friends represent God's word, the law, which condemns man. Not Satan.

Thanks.

tgallison
Feb 10th 2008, 12:25 AM
Terrell,
I look at Job's diliemma similar to how I look at David's Psalms. David often must lay ahold of his faith in God before his perspective is brought into line with the truth he knows - which results in his praise of God. Is Job any different? He has no idea what has happened to him or why, and while he expresses his point of view - never does he deny his hope in God, even though that hope has grown dim. I see a man struggling to keep his faith in the only One he knows who can help him during the toughest trial of his life - facing his own death. A road each of us has to face alone in this world - until God speaks to our hearts and we find we are not alone after all.

I don't see that Job said anything that wasn't true from his perspective. God was permitting Satan to do this to him!

Job starts out well:

(Job 2:10 KJV) But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

But Elihu finally nails what Job's friends provoked him into doing:

(Job 34:35-37 KJV) Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. {36} My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men. {37} For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

(Job 35:1-3 KJV) Elihu spake moreover, and said, {2} Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's? {3} For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?

This trial to the end would bring about his restoration. The story doesn't end with leaving Job in this condition of blaming God. I think that is important to see. Job starts with his integrity holding him fast, falls into sin, sees God more clearly when he is convicted and responds with repentance and is restored with a deeper more steadfast faith in God. Is this not what happens to us in our own walk of faith?

Robin

You sure are cutting Job a lot of slack.

In Job 2:10 when the Bible says, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips.", is in stark contrast to Job 1:22 where the Bible says, "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."

This is in light of the fact that the conversation between God and Satan is almost word for word except for that which changed.

Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

When Elihu charged Job with multiplying his words against God, wasn't it the same as saying Job charged God foolishly.

God had not forgiven Job's sins. Job said it. (Job 7:21) And Elihu said, "For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, what profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?" (Job 35:3)

Elihu told Job that his soul was near the grave, and his life close to the destroyers. (Job 33:22) Doesn't sound like Job was on his way to heaven to me.

God charged Job with reproving him and instructing him. (Job 40:2) Sounds like, God charged Job with charging God foolishly to me.

God charged Job with condemning him, and disannuling his judgement. (Job 40:8) Sounds like Job charged God foolishly to me.

Then God asked Job if he could save himself. (Job 40:14)

Then God asked Job if he was going to make a contract with the king of the children of pride. (Job 41:4)

I believe that Job's soul was headed for the pit just like Elihu said it was.

That he needed God's righteousness to be saved.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 10th 2008, 12:38 AM
David Niblack (http://www.davidniblack.com/articles/New%20Testament%20use%20of%20the%20Old%20Testament .htm), “The Use of the Old Testament in the New”]


Jesus said that all the scriptures spoke of him, so I believe we are allowed to look for him everywhere. It has at times been called the Christological principle. A very clear example of a shadow that has nothing to do with the literal-historical account is that of Tamar posted elsewhere. The same hermeneutic that exposes the Tamar shadow exposes the shadows in Job.

I am currently working on the shadows in Exodus. When I am finished, I would be happy to enter into a collaboration on Job with someone who does not deny sensus plenior on an a priori basis.

It is easy to deny that sensus plenior exists. But making an a priori statement that they don't exist places one in the same camp as the atheist trying to assert that God does not exist. One example disproves the assertion.

It also is not "spiritualizing" it. More stringent rules apply. The shadows in no way rid us of the literal-historical account but form a double entendre or sensus plenior which the light of Christ reveals as we look back at the OT accounts.

As you said, you have placed man at the center of your interpretation. The shadows place Christ at the center.

If you find no value in seeing Christ in Job, I am not going to twist your arm.

Since this is all OT, I'll be happy to continue this discussion elsewhere.

On topic:

Many of the things you pointed out could be said of Christ. There is obvious allusion to being "born again" that someone else made which is easy to see as his resurrection. And if you but ponder it, you will find great delight in seeing hints of Christ's ministry in the story.

Sorry it troubles you so.It doesn't trouble me at all. But before private interpretation can be applied, it helps to understand the context. What rules did Peter follow to arrive at his inspiration? Had he not already known the scriptures, he could not have seen the shadow that pointed to Christ. Many of the OT quotes found in the NT do not follow any rule other than that of inspiration. I do continue to look for Christ throughout the scripture, but not everything is a shadow either.

Mograce2U
Feb 10th 2008, 12:54 AM
Robin

You sure are cutting Job a lot of slack.

In Job 2:10 when the Bible says, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips.", is in stark contrast to Job 1:22 where the Bible says, "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."

This is in light of the fact that the conversation between God and Satan is almost word for word except for that which changed.

Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

When Elihu charged Job with multiplying his words against God, wasn't it the same as saying Job charged God foolishly.

God had not forgiven Job's sins. Job said it. (Job 7:21) And Elihu said, "For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, what profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?" (Job 35:3)

Elihu told Job that his soul was near the grave, and his life close to the destroyers. (Job 33:22) Doesn't sound like Job was on his way to heaven to me.

God charged Job with reproving him and instructing him. (Job 40:2) Sounds like, God charged Job with charging God foolishly to me.

God charged Job with condemning him, and disannuling his judgement. (Job 40:8) Sounds like Job charged God foolishly to me.

Then God asked Job if he could save himself. (Job 40:14)

Then God asked Job if he was going to make a contract with the king of the children of pride. (Job 41:4)

I believe that Job's soul was headed for the pit just like Elihu said it was.

That he needed God's righteousness to be saved.

In Jesus Christ, terrellWhat I said was that Job didn't start out accusing God, yet that is what his friends provoked him to do. Yes Job sinned and when he did, he didn't think he had - else he probably wouldn't have done it. Even before he sinned his heart was convinced of his own self-righteousness in the things he did. But he did not know that. This is the knowledge God wants to bring him too so that he can be turned fully to trusting in God. I think Job was shocked when God spoke to him about the things that were in his heart - things in which he did not know were sin to him.

The section about leviathan is interesting. This is who Job needed protection from, which he could not achieve in his own strength.

But all in all, I think the story is about coming fully into redeeming faith and the true knowledge of God. Job is not a heathen, but a good man and one whom God blessed. But his faith was not perfect as he had some wrong views about the character of God and about his relationship to Him.

bjones
Feb 10th 2008, 01:09 AM
Many of the OT quotes found in the NT do not follow any rule other than that of inspiration... but not everything is a shadow either.

These are also a priori assumptions. The rules I use existed at the time of Christ. ... and I am finding him everywhere. I am actively looking to apply the hermeneutic to any such NT scriptures that you think required special inspiration as a test of the hermeneutic itself.

Admittedly I am a beginner at it. Although I haven't found anyone else formally using it, there are others on the board who have used parts of it instinctively, and I have tried to point them out when I find them.

Thanks.

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 01:12 AM
But all in all, I think the story is about coming fully into redeeming faith and the true knowledge of God. Job is not a heathen, but a good man and one whom God blessed. But his faith was not perfect as he had some wrong views about the character of God and about his relationship to Him.

As Job was being tormented by Satan, he was not aware of who was doing it so he assumed it was God himself. In time Jobs patience broke down and he became very angry at God, believing God to be cruel and unfair. Job's error was assuming God was directly harming him. his second mistake was to questions God's right to do that even though that wasn't the case. It shows that even a "perfect" man isn't literally perfect and the act of repentance and humbleness shown by Job at the end and God's mercy and forgiveness is utterly amazing.

tgallison
Feb 10th 2008, 02:43 AM
As Job was being tormented by Satan, he was not aware of who was doing it so he assumed it was God himself. In time Jobs patience broke down and he became very angry at God, believing God to be cruel and unfair. Job's error was assuming God was directly harming him. his second mistake was to questions God's right to do that even though that wasn't the case. It shows that even a "perfect" man isn't literally perfect and the act of repentance and humbleness shown by Job at the end and God's mercy and forgiveness is utterly amazing.

Naphal Greetings

To what do you ascribe God's purpose in allowing Job to be persecuted?

terrell

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 02:48 AM
Naphal Greetings

To what do you ascribe God's purpose in allowing Job to be persecuted?

terrell



To see if he could refrain from cursing Him under great duress. It was test. God bragged about Job to Satan and Satan leveled a challenge and God agreed to it. Job was the fodder :)

tgallison
Feb 10th 2008, 03:03 AM
To see if he could refrain from cursing Him under great duress. It was test. God bragged about Job to Satan and Satan leveled a challenge and God agreed to it. Job was the fodder :)

Naphal

Who do you feel won the challenge?

terrell

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 03:06 AM
Naphal

Who do you feel won the challenge?

terrell

Satan was able to get Job to curse God but God wins in the end because after confronting Job about what he had said and done, Job repents and is rewarded more than he had been before. In the end Satan loses and there is a victory for those who are repentant.

tgallison
Feb 10th 2008, 01:16 PM
Good post. Have you considered substituting Christ for Job, and the law (the Word of God in the OT) for the three friends. Everything that the three friends said is true, under the law, but did not apply to Christ. Christ was made perfect, learned obedience, through the things he suffered, just as Job was.

When Peter understood that Jesus was the Son of God, he could not comprehend how or why he should die. As a shadow of Christ, the law is accusing Job:Christ, effectively saying "You are the son of man, why SHOULD't you die."

When Job cries out "Why are you not hearing my defense" you can almost hear Jesus cry on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?"

Now consider, where was Satan when this happened? He was "walking" on the earth. In the shadows, this represents before Satan was cursed to crawl on his belly. It shows that the decision to tempt Christ in every way possible, was made before the fall.

As you meditate on Job as a shadow of Christ, many other dots will connect.

bjones hi

We are in agreement that what the three friends said was true, as much as I can tell. Have not done a complete study of them. What they lacked was mercy, the same as the law. The only mercy in the law was the cities of refuge. What they did not tell Job, and did not understand themselves, was that they needed a saviour, a refuge, a ransom. They told Job he had to be more pure, and that was not right.

Do not see Job as a type of Christ. He was a sinner, and said so himself. He also said God would not forgive his sins. Job was a picture of Israel.

Romans 9:31 "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness."

Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was a robe and a diadem."

Job 26:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."

Romans 9:32-33 "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence; and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

Like Israel, Job was God's chosen. And Paul said this of Israel.

Romans 10:1-2 "Brethren my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (This was Job's problem, he wasn't saved.) (2)
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

This next verse was the heart of Job's problem.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?"

Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

THIS NEXT VERSE IS THE HEART OF THE BOOK OF JOB

Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

terrell

Friend of I AM
Feb 10th 2008, 01:50 PM
bjones hi

We are in agreement that what the three friends said was true, as much as I can tell. Have not done a complete study of them.

Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Hey Terrel,

If his friends spoke rightly about God, then why does God rebuke their testimony and only accept a sacrafice from Job in their place, so that God will forgive them of their sins? In fact, Job's entire rebuke of Eliphaz and the two others was the only thing(other than Elihu' testimony) that was accepted as right by God. Also take not that Job's friends/family had accussed him of committing many sins which he didn't commit.

tgallison
Feb 10th 2008, 04:21 PM
Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Hey Terrel,

If his friends spoke rightly about God, then why does God rebuke their testimony and only accept a sacrafice from Job in their place, so that God will forgive them of their sins? In fact, Job's entire rebuke of Eliphaz and the two others was the only thing(other than Elihu' testimony) that was accepted as right by God. Also take not that Job's friends/family had accussed him of committing many sins which he didn't commit.

Stephen Hi

God never said that what the three friends said was not true. It was not for what they said God condemned them, but for what they did not say. They had no answer for Job's dilemma. That he was lost and on his way to hell. When Job saw the light, he repented. That light was our saviour and Job's saviour, our ransom and Job's ransom.

One answer for why Job had to offer up a sacrifice for his three friends, might be in Job's request to God.

Job 16:20-21 "My friends scorn me but mine eye poureth out tears unto God. O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbor"

The three friends where wrong on both sides of the equation. They judged Job, and Jesus said judge not, least ye be judged. They had no answer and were on there way to the pit as well. They had not accepted God's salvation, His ransom.

The three friends said many things about God that were true. Don't know if anything they said about God was untrue.

The three friend said many things about Job. Don't know if anything they said about Job that was untrue. They knew Job a whole lot better than we do.

Elihu said, "Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job."(Job 32:3)

Remember Elihu said, I am in God's place. It was God giving Job, his request for one who wouldn't make Job afraid, so that Job could argue his case before God. Also remember that Job was unable to present one argument before Elihu.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 10th 2008, 06:34 PM
Terrell,
I think you are correct that Job is a picture of OT Israel. I only found one NT verse that even mentions him though.

(James 5:10-11) Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. {11} Behold, we count them blessed which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Job showed us that his hope was in his Redeemer and in the resurrection. This is the basis for our faith as well.

(Job 19:25-27 KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: {26} And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: {27} Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

But Job was trusting in his own righteous works in this life to arrive at his hope. This is also what happened to Israel who was anticipating Messiah's arrival. When they entered into the land, they failed to mix faith with the gospel when they heard it from Moses.

Job (nor Israel) was not going to be saved in other way than by the mercy of God. And his walk in this life was also dependent upon that same mercy. Somehow the shift had occurred in Job's mind that what he was doing was what guaranteed his hope in salvation to him. Adherence to the law did bring blessing to live this life - it was however not the way to find eternal life which is only by faith.

Whatever else we ought to glean from Job, I do think this is the essential message it contains: that we are to continue to live by faith as we endure the trials of this life, looking for our Blessed Hope. Our strength in not found in the things that we do but only in the hope that we have.

Friend of I AM
Feb 10th 2008, 08:13 PM
Stephen Hi

God never said that what the three friends said was not true. It was not for what they said God condemned them, but for what they did not say. They had no answer for Job's dilemma. That he was lost and on his way to hell. When Job saw the light, he repented. That light was our saviour and Job's saviour, our ransom and Job's ransom.

One answer for why Job had to offer up a sacrifice for his three friends, might be in Job's request to God.

Job 16:20-21 "My friends scorn me but mine eye poureth out tears unto God. O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbor"

The three friends where wrong on both sides of the equation. They judged Job, and Jesus said judge not, least ye be judged. They had no answer and were on there way to the pit as well. They had not accepted God's salvation, His ransom.

The three friends said many things about God that were true. Don't know if anything they said about God was untrue.

The three friend said many things about Job. Don't know if anything they said about Job that was untrue. They knew Job a whole lot better than we do.

Elihu said, "Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job."(Job 32:3)

Remember Elihu said, I am in God's place. It was God giving Job, his request for one who wouldn't make Job afraid, so that Job could argue his case before God. Also remember that Job was unable to present one argument before Elihu.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

That's interesting perspective Terrel. I still don't agree with you about the 3 friends testimony as being true, based on the Lord's own statements rebuking them in Job 42. If you read Job 42 again, you'll see that the Lord rebukes the friends testimony twice as not being "right."

Also looking at Job again myself, it looks as though his friends were indeed accusing Job of being a wicked man earlier in the story. Earlier in Job, we see that the friends as well as his wife were consitently accusing Job of sinning against God before hand, because they could not understand as to why Job was receiving all the hardships that he had endured.

The worst thing about their testimony, is as you mentioned - to top off their defaming of Job's character - they didn't at any time show mercy upon Job nor console him until the end of the story. I would take a gander at saying Job himself probably had helped and consoled these friends on many occassions.

Edit: Despite being a righteous man, Job was brought to the reality that his righteousnous was not enough to obtain salvation - and that he was still a sinner even though he hadn't blatantly sinned against God with his actions.

In Christ,

Stephen

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 09:25 PM
Edit: Despite being a righteous man, Job was brought to the reality that his righteousnous was not enough to obtain salvation - and that he was still a sinner even though he hadn't blatantly sinned against God with his actions.

In Christ,

Stephen

He did blatantly sin against God during this testing period. This is why he repented.

Friend of I AM
Feb 10th 2008, 09:57 PM
He did blatantly sin against God during this testing period. This is why he repented.

I'm sure Job sinned before that (probably many times within his heart during his life) God never stated he was sinless - just righteous. I initially posted that I thought the righteousnous was primarily based on his repentance, but it was also probably characterized by the way he lived his life as well. I also think Job was a man who did truly loved and respected the Lord, which is another reason why he was deemed righteous in God's eyes.

Edit: Yeah actually Job did acknowledge the fact that he repented of his sins by burning sacrafices earlier in the story, and that he also burnt sacrafices for the sins of his sons/daughters/friends in an earlier verse. So yeah Job was indeed aware of himself being a sinner. I guess Job's biggest misunderstanding was not with the fact that he was labeled a sinner by God, but why God hadn't forgiven him of his sins, as he always repented quickly after sinning.

In Christ,

Stephen

Teke
Feb 10th 2008, 10:05 PM
I'm struggling with the lines in italics below:


18"He (CK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13345CK))returns what he has attained
And cannot swallow it;
As to the riches of his trading,
He cannot even enjoy them.
19"For he has (CL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13346CL))oppressed and forsaken the poor;
He has seized a house which he has not built.
20"Because he knew no quiet within him,
He does (CM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13347CM))not retain anything he desires.
21"Nothing remains for him to devour,
Therefore (CN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=job+17-20#cen-NASB-13348CN))his prosperity does not endure.
1. What does "knowing quiet within him" mean, in relation to not retaining anything he desires? Is the "quiet within him" related to finding satisfaction with what you already have, rather than being greedy? If so, why does that mean that he therefore doesn't retain anything he desires? Thoughts/input would be greatly appreciated.

2. What does 20:21 mean? Why does his prosperity not endure because there is nothing remaining for him to devour? I'm going to presume that in this case devour means consume or collect...I believe that what is being talked about is the rich man who has everything...but if he has everything (from a worldly standpoint), why does his prosperity (in this lifetime) not endure? Or is that the point...that he can't take it with him, and God's not going to be impressed if he hasn't led a proper life in the first place...? I just find the word "therefore" at the beginning of that passage confusing, as it appears to be because of the fact that he has devoured everything as a result his prosperity will not endure. Can anyone shed some light on this one?

Overall, I'm really struggling with the conversation between Job and his friends. It seems like his friends are accusing him of being wicked and "having it coming", and yet by all accounts, Job was a very good man (which is why Satan was allowed to test him in the first place). As for his friends, can they possibly imagine what Job has been through? Why are they being so hard on him? Or am I completely missing the point?

This is part of Zophars second address to Job.
"his friends are accusing him of being wicked and "having it coming",....
Yes, that is what Jobs friends thought. But they were wrong. God is "proving" Job righteous.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 10:07 PM
God is "proving" Job righteous.


And does Job prove that he during this process or does he give in and become as bad or worse than his friends?

Friend of I AM
Feb 10th 2008, 10:12 PM
And does Job prove that he during this process or does he give in and become as bad or worse than his friends?

Job is/was only human. I doubt any one of his friends, or anyone today could have experienced as much as Job went through and still remain righteous before God - not once trying to accuse his creator. Even during his questioning of God, Job maintained his integrity and respect, without desparaging the character of God. It was truly hard for him - which is why God had much compassion for Job. He blessed him abundantly after all that stuff that had happened to Job, as well as blessed his friends and family. Job was/is indeed a good man, whom all Christians should model their lives after in terms of obedience, humility, wisdom, and knowledge.

In Christ,

Stephen

Teke
Feb 10th 2008, 10:17 PM
And does Job prove that he during this process or does he give in and become as bad or worse than his friends?

Here's the end.

Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job.

Job's response to Zophar's second address (OP) begins in Chapter 21. (if you were asking about that particular section)

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 10:19 PM
Job is/was only human. I doubt any one of his friends, or anyone today could have experienced as much as Job went through and still remain righteous before God - not once trying to accuse his creator.

Not once? What are you talking about? Job spends countless chapters accusing God of all sorts of terrible things.




Even during his questioning of God, Job maintained his integrity and respect, without desparaging the character of God.



lol....I am not sure we have read the same book if that's what you got out of it. Job spends a majority of the book doing exactly that! I think we need a thread devoted to discussing how much and how vicious Job's accusations were against God.

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 10:21 PM
Here's the end.

Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job.



This is only after Job's berating and subsequent repentance which is why it's at "the end".

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 10:28 PM
Job is/was only human. I doubt any one of his friends, or anyone today could have experienced as much as Job went through and still remain righteous before God - not once trying to accuse his creator. Even during his questioning of God, Job maintained his integrity and respect, without desparaging the character of God. It was truly hard for him - which is why God had much compassion for Job.


Lets see if that is true:



Job speaks:

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Job 7:12 Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
Job 7:13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
Job 7:14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:
Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.
Job 7:16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
Job 7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
Job 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
Job 7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

Job later says:


Job 9:13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
Job 9:14 How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
Job 9:16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
Job 9:19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Job 9:21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

WOAH! Verse 23 is quite a statement by Job, that if a man should die being punished, that God would laugh at the trial of an innocent man. This means that Job feels God is unjust and cruel!


Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.

Job speaking, and he is speaking his bitterness to God:

Job 10:2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.
Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
Job 10:4 Hast thou eyes of flesh? or seest thou as man seeth?
Job 10:5 Are thy days as the days of man? are thy years as man's days,
Job 10:6 That thou enquirest after mine iniquity, and searchest after my sin?

Ouch! Job is really digging himself a deep hole. Here he actually questions Gods right to judge man because God is not flesh and it’s implied that therefore God can’t understand what its like to live in the flesh. Yet, God can understand us, and could even before Christ was born flesh. God has the right to judge flesh man, and always has.

Friend of I AM
Feb 10th 2008, 10:39 PM
Lets see if that is true:



Job speaks:

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Job 7:12 Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
Job 7:13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
Job 7:14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:
Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.
Job 7:16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
Job 7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
Job 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
Job 7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

Job later says:


Job 9:13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
Job 9:14 How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
Job 9:16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
Job 9:19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Job 9:21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

WOAH! Verse 23 is quite a statement by Job, that if a man should die being punished, that God would laugh at the trial of an innocent man. This means that Job feels God is unjust and cruel!


Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.

Job speaking, and he is speaking his bitterness to God:

Job 10:2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.
Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
Job 10:4 Hast thou eyes of flesh? or seest thou as man seeth?
Job 10:5 Are thy days as the days of man? are thy years as man's days,
Job 10:6 That thou enquirest after mine iniquity, and searchest after my sin?

Ouch! Job is really digging himself a deep hole. Here he actually questions Gods right to judge man because God is not flesh and it’s implied that therefore God can’t understand what its like to live in the flesh. Yet, God can understand us, and could even before Christ was born flesh. God has the right to judge flesh man, and always has.

Well perhaps I was off on that one. He did his best with what God gave him and considering the circumstances, he held up well. My biggest reason in posting the above was to demonstrate what a man of character Job was. There's a lot of accusations going on in here about how prideful Job was, but to be honest, Job really wasn't all that prideful. He was possesed with pride during the point of his testimony before God, but aside from that - he was a pretty humble guy. People sometimes get angry, and Job must have had a Godly amount of patience to go through what he did and not really get that angry and only say a few minor things.

Believe you me - I myself have gotten blue in the face over some of the stupidest things. Job on the other hand, had all of his children die before him, as well as have all of his friends admonish him, and lose just about everything he had, and still didn't get all that upset with God. He actually acknowledged it was God's right to take these things away from him!!

Can you imagine that? Now that's a great man. Certainly worth the title that God gave him of being the most righteous man on earth at the time. Job was greatly loved by God, and God was greatly loved by Job. The fact that he loved God very much was apparent throughout the entire book. A class act through and through with Job, and I'm sure he's in Heaven right now continue to server God as well as he did here on earth - receiving the fullness of God's Love.

In Christ,

Stephen

Naphal
Feb 10th 2008, 10:50 PM
Well perhaps I was off on that one. He did his best with what God gave him and considering the circumstances, he held up well. My biggest reason in posting the above was to demonstrate what a man of character Job was. There's a lot of accusations going on in here about how prideful Job was, but to be honest, Job really wasn't all that prideful. He was possesed with pride during the point of his testimony before God, but aside from that - he was a pretty humble guy.


He eventually humbled himself but the truth is Job was so righteous that he became to really believe he was as righteous as God so God tested him and he faltered and failed. Job was very prideful and did not feel God had any right to do any of this to him.

Compare that to Lucifer and his fall from grace. He thought he was such an important and righteous being that he eventually felt he was equal to God.




People sometimes get angry, and Job must have had a Godly amount of patience to go through what he did and not really get that angry and only say a few minor things.

You still don't get it. Job said nothing minor, nor did he only get a little angry. Job said some of the worst things against God that is recorded in the bible. Even Satan isn't recorded as having said things as awful! Job was extremely angry and and did all but denounce God openly. Your preconceived beliefs about Job are incorrect and I highly suggest you slowly and carefully read the whole book of job...the book contains things you are clearly not aware of.





Believe you me - I myself have gotten blue in the face over some of the stupidest things. Job on the other hand, had all of his children die before him, as well as have all of his friends admonish him, and lose just about everything he had, and still didn't get all that upset with God. He actually acknowledged it was God's right to take these things away from him!!



Like what he says here?

Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.
Job 19:8 He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.
Job 19:9 He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.
Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
Job 19:11 He hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.
Job 19:12 His troops come together, and raise up their way against me, and encamp round about my tabernacle.
Job 19:13 He hath put my brethren far from me, and mine acquaintance are verily estranged from me.
Job 19:14 My kinsfolk have failed, and my familiar friends have forgotten me.
Job 19:15 They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight.
Job 19:16 I called my servant, and he gave me no answer; I intreated him with my mouth.
Job 19:17 My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body.
Job 19:18 Yea, young children despised me; I arose, and they spake against me.
Job 19:19 All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.
Job 19:20 My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth.
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job 19:22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
Job 19:24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!


Here is quite a long rant against God and what Job believes God has done to him unjustly. Ironic how his last words would very much come to pass, being written in a book to his eventual shame and for a lesson to us.




A class act through and through with Job, and I'm sure he's in Heaven right now continue to server God as well as he did here on earth - receiving the fullness of God's Love.

Yeah, a real class act when he says this:

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.


He certainly was true to that statement!

bjones
Feb 11th 2008, 12:17 AM
Do not see Job as a type of Christ. He was a sinner, and said so himself. He also said God would not forgive his sins. Job was a picture of Israel.
...
terrell


Thanks Terrell,

Your post is correct concerning Israel. I am careful to not use the word "type" since others have rules they have written for typology. I use the word "shadow" to indicate a different set of rules. It doesn't make sense to argue about symbols if you are using different rules.

In the shadows, Israel is a shadow of Christ. So the same pattern that applies to Israel is one that applies to Christ. In fact we usually find that a pattern template has three expressions, word, works and life. So everything you said about Israel will also be true in a third "environment".

In the rules for shadows, exaggeration, and minimizing are standard practices. When someone is threatened with death, but does not die, it is a shadow of death and resurrection. When someone, who is a shadow of Christ, sins, we look to see if it fits in the same schema as Christ being made sin. So when Joseph unjustly imprisons 10 of his brothers, he is required to pay the full penalty of the law by returning his brothers to his father with the 20% penalty of 2 of his own sons. Just as Christ paid the full penalty for all our sin. Joseph's sin is a shadow of Christ being made sin. Noah's drunkenness the same.

So everything you said about Israel is part of the same pattern that applies to Christ in the shadows. They could not accomplish their own righteousness. But Christ did. He was righteous in his works fulfilling the requirements of the law so that the law had no claim on him.

Some of the comments following yours, attempt to use the rules of literal interpretation upon the shadow and they just don't mix. It is like seeing bunnies in the clouds. You see a pattern that looks like a bunny because you know what a bunny look like. You see a shadow of Christ in the OT because you know what Christ looks like.

Anyone, without much thought can say that the cloud looks nothing like a bunny because it is mist and bunnies are flesh and fur. But the practice of seeing bunnies is one of looking only for similarities, not for differences. It is comparing, not contrasting.

The rule of sizing, exaggerating and minimizing is used by those of the single intent school in some places, such as when Jesus says you must hate your parents. As you get accustomed to using it, you will see Mordecai as a shadow of Christ and the gallows as the cross, Moses as Christ when God seeks to kill him before his son is circumcised, the widow's son who is raised from the dead, in the Song of Solomon where he is asleep but his heart is a wake and she sought him but couldn't find him, even as the man who takes a slave woman betrothed to another.

The burnt offering is a shadow of Christ's total devotion to the Father. There is no hint of sin in it, and the priests do not partake of it. We, a nation of priests, can only stand by and marvel at the relation between father and son. At the end of Job, there are seven burnt offerings. These are the hint of the identities of those involved in the story. There are seven offerings for the same reason there are seven candles on the menorah. Three testimonies in heaven, three testimonies on earth, all are one. The three in heaven are one, the one on earth is three, and they are one God. 3+3+1=7

You are real close to seeing the shadows...

Friend of I AM
Feb 11th 2008, 01:27 AM
You know I just opened up the book of Job, and I have to say that I made a bit of an error. Terrel was indeed right about Job's 3 friends consoling him. It states that they consoled him for 7 days and 7 nights. Not sure about their testimony being totally correct though. I'm still leaning towards them being a bit off on their testimony, which is why God stated that their testimony was not completely right in his eyes. Thoughts?

Friend of I AM
Feb 11th 2008, 01:37 AM
He eventually humbled himself but the truth is Job was so righteous that he became to really believe he was as righteous as God so God tested him and he faltered and failed. Job was very prideful and did not feel God had any right to do any of this to him.

Compare that to Lucifer and his fall from grace. He thought he was such an important and righteous being that he eventually felt he was equal to God.





You still don't get it. Job said nothing minor, nor did he only get a little angry. Job said some of the worst things against God that is recorded in the bible. Even Satan isn't recorded as having said things as awful! Job was extremely angry and and did all but denounce God openly. Your preconceived beliefs about Job are incorrect and I highly suggest you slowly and carefully read the whole book of job...the book contains things you are clearly not aware of.





Like what he says here?

Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.
Job 19:8 He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.
Job 19:9 He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.
Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
Job 19:11 He hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.
Job 19:12 His troops come together, and raise up their way against me, and encamp round about my tabernacle.
Job 19:13 He hath put my brethren far from me, and mine acquaintance are verily estranged from me.
Job 19:14 My kinsfolk have failed, and my familiar friends have forgotten me.
Job 19:15 They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight.
Job 19:16 I called my servant, and he gave me no answer; I intreated him with my mouth.
Job 19:17 My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body.
Job 19:18 Yea, young children despised me; I arose, and they spake against me.
Job 19:19 All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.
Job 19:20 My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth.
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job 19:22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
Job 19:24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!


Here is quite a long rant against God and what Job believes God has done to him unjustly. Ironic how his last words would very much come to pass, being written in a book to his eventual shame and for a lesson to us.





Yeah, a real class act when he says this:

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.


He certainly was true to that statement!

I admitted that Job said some things that were far from saintly in my previous post, but I think we should be careful about making accussations against Job's character and comparing him to Satan - particularly when Job himself isn't here to defend himself.

Basically, my point was that Job was a man who sinned, and repented. He went through an extrodinary amount of stress, and probably handled it a lot better than most of us would within our lives. I don't think Job was perfect, but he indeed was an extremely righteous man - even God stated he was. Was he prideful and sinful? sure. We all are prideful at times being sinners. Was he also humble and righteous? you betcha. God himself stated there was no other man like him on earth at the time, which is a pretty big(well let's say infinitely big) compliment. He was essentially bragging about Job.

The story in itself is actually a very uplifting but sad at the same time, as it shows that we all fall short of the righteousnous of God - despite how much we try to clean ourselves off and give the appearance of righteousnous.

Grace,

Stephen

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 02:46 AM
I admitted that Job said some things that were far from saintly in my previous post, but I think we should be careful about making accussations against Job's character and comparing him to Satan - particularly when Job himself isn't here to defend himself.

lol

It's merely a comparison and the comparison is sound and true. Job wouldn't deny it. BTW, Job is a better man than I :)




Basically, my point was that Job was a man who sinned, and repented. He went through an extrodinary amount of stress, and probably handled it a lot better than most of us would within our lives.

Yes, this I agree with. It's that you had said some other things about Job and what Job did or did not do that simply wasn't accurate so that's why I corrected you and showed the scriptures that prove it. Don't be ashamed. I find this confusion about what actually happens in Job to be extremely common which is why I like to discuss the subject with people.




I don't think Job was perfect, but he indeed was an extremely righteous man - even God stated he was. Was he prideful and sinful? sure. We all are prideful at times being sinners. Was he also humble and righteous? you betcha. God himself stated there was no other man like him on earth at the time, which is a pretty big(well let's say infinitely big) compliment. He was essentially bragging about Job.

Yes, I agree with all of this.




The story in itself is actually a very uplifting but sad at the same time, as it shows that we all fall short of the righteousnous of God - despite how much we try to clean ourselves off and give the appearance of righteousnous.

Again, this is true.

So admit it, were you shocked to read the words of Job that I posted? I am curious what your initial reaction was.

Friend of I AM
Feb 11th 2008, 04:06 PM
lol
So admit it, were you shocked to read the words of Job that I posted? I am curious what your initial reaction was.


I would say I am somewhat. Job was in quite a bit of pain and anguish, which is one of the reasons I think God had much mercy upon him. I think many of us would have cursed God and died before Job had. The thing I think we all need to be careful about, is admonishing Job too much for all that he went through. We kind of are putting ourselves in the position of the 3 friends Job had with him when doing so.

In Christ,

Stephen

Teke
Feb 11th 2008, 04:21 PM
This is only after Job's berating and subsequent repentance which is why it's at "the end".

:confused Do you mean his expostulation? Nothing wrong with Job in that.

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 09:15 PM
I would say I am somewhat. Job was in quite a bit of pain and anguish, which is one of the reasons I think God had much mercy upon him. I think many of us would have cursed God and died before Job had. The thing I think we all need to be careful about, is admonishing Job too much for all that he went through. We kind of are putting ourselves in the position of the 3 friends Job had with him when doing so.

In Christ,

Stephen

I don't admonish Job. I merely wish to bring the truth of his life affront so all can know what really happened.

I did some more work in the book of Job to show even more of what transpired if you are interested.

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 09:17 PM
:confused Do you mean his expostulation? Nothing wrong with Job in that.


I'm saying God says Job spoke what is right concerning his repentance, not all the horrible things job said about God in some 32 chapters before that repentance.

Teke
Feb 11th 2008, 09:42 PM
I'm saying God says Job spoke what is right concerning his repentance, not all the horrible things job said about God in some 32 chapters before that repentance.

I guess I'm not following you. It seems to me your saying Job needed to repent. Yet the scripture is clear he lived a life of repentance, even for others (as a priest you could say).

What I'm saying is that there is no bottom or top to reach in humility. Humility is the ultimate state for reception of grace. Job's situation is one which brought him to a vision of God so to speak.

This is also why the worst things happened to the greatest saints. So that God could glorify them. They had already given all glory to Him, His response is to prove them even more righteous through greater tribulations. This is what Job learned if he didn't already know it and just hadn't experienced it till then.

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 09:58 PM
I guess I'm not following you. It seems to me your saying Job needed to repent. Yet the scripture is clear he lived a life of repentance, even for others (as a priest you could say).


Yes, he sinned and needed to repent which he eventually did but only after being chatised by God.

Teke
Feb 11th 2008, 10:27 PM
Yes, he sinned and needed to repent which he eventually did but only after being chatised by God.

Is it a sin to be deceived? To be deceived, means you do not know.
In that vein it would seem more like God wanted Job to know to further his spiritual growth toward Him. So does he need to repent because he didn't know that there is One Mediator of righteousness, that being God alone. Meaning our very existence hinges on that righteousness, and not on what we have or do, however that may look to the world. To some it might look good and others bad, as with Job's friends and their opinions of his position.

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 10:55 PM
Is it a sin to be deceived? To be deceived, means you do not know.

Sins committed while deceived are still sins and still punishable. See Eve's story for evidence.




In that vein it would seem more like God wanted Job to know to further his spiritual growth toward Him.


Absolutely. Job did have a lot of growing to do, which he did.




So does he need to repent because he didn't know that there is One Mediator of righteousness, that being God alone. Meaning our very existence hinges on that righteousness, and not on what we have or do, however that may look to the world.


I have no idea what you are talking about. Job had to repent for cursing God so much and for his horrible pride.