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heart hammer
Feb 8th 2008, 10:14 PM
Where does it say anywhere in bible prophecy that their will be a rebuilt temple in the city of Jerusalem? Another question was it this fabled place that Jesus spoke of in Mattew 24:15? "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy place, (Whoso readeth, let him understand)."
I would have to consider any rebuilt temple in Jerusalem to be an abomination. A building is no longer a Holy place. We are the Holy building whose builder and maker is God. Not built by might of by strength but by His Spirit.....
Just a thought
Take Care and God Bless

seeker_truth
Feb 8th 2008, 10:35 PM
Where does it say anywhere in bible prophecy that their will be a rebuilt temple in the city of Jerusalem? Another question was it this fabled place that Jesus spoke of in Mattew 24:15? "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy place, (Whoso readeth, let him understand)."
I would have to consider any rebuilt temple in Jerusalem to be an abomination. A building is no longer a Holy place. We are the Holy building whose builder and maker is God. Not built by might of by strength but by His Spirit.....
Just a thought
Take Care and God Bless
Hey there hammer,
I believe that many use 2Thess.2:3-4 in reference to the need of a rebuilt temple.

BTW, there will be a temple built during the Millennial reign. Ezekiel states that it will be established in the midst of the holy oblation, and just north of the city, Jerusalem.

seeker

Holland
Feb 8th 2008, 10:42 PM
:confused

I agree that our bodys are the temple of God. Everywhere I go, God is there. I do not put Him on like a jacket when I'm going out, and then take Him off when I come in. He is ALWAYS there, if I am there.

But here is another scripture: The man of lawlessness will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2Thes.2:4).

I hope the Bible is talking about a building......cause the devil is not gonna set himself up in me.

Holland

David Taylor
Feb 8th 2008, 10:45 PM
Hey there hammer,
I believe that many use 2Thess.2:3-4 in reference to the need of a rebuilt temple.

BTW, there will be a temple built during the Millennial reign. Ezekiel states that it will be established in the midst of the holy oblation, and just north of the city, Jerusalem.

seeker


Ezekiel doesn't mention a Millennial Reign.

Ezekiel shows a blue-print given by God to Ezekiel during the Babylonian Captivity pre 572 B.C., which was condition upon the faithfulness of Israel to the Lord.

The temple building program began under Zerubbabel, and is discussed in Nehemiah and Ezra; however, the Israelites soon fell back away from following the Lord; and the temple was never completed to the grand scale given in the vision to Ezekiel.

We can know that this blue-print given to Ezekiel could never have been intended to be a true rebuilt stone temple neither at the end of time; nor after the endtime Return of Christ; because it depicts a return to animal sacrifices for the sins of the people; for sanctification; and for purification.

All of these types of rituals were still occuring during the times of Zerubbabel and Nehemiah and Ezra; following 572 B.C.; but ceased forevermore in the 1st century A.D.; with the final and complete perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ; the holy sinless Lamb slain; perfecting the pre-type that came before Him.

Many times in the NT, it is shown that the true temple from that point forward, was not the stone temple made with hands that was destroyed; but rather, the true temple made without Hands, Jesus Christ being the Cornerstone.

Other reasons that the Ezekiel temple can never be built in our future, besides the return to animal sacrifices for sin; is that the Ezekiel temple is stated to be Holy to the Lord; and that He accepted and required those animal sacrifices; again something that after the cross; would be an affront to the accomplishment made by Christ's own final sacrifice.

Ezekiel's temple depicts sinful rebels within its temple and throughout Jerusalem; and where physical circumcision of the flesh was still required; another act that the New Testament did away with through the blood of Christ.

David Taylor
Feb 8th 2008, 10:48 PM
:confused

I agree that our bodys are the temple of God. Everywhere I go, God is there. I do not put Him on like a jacket when I'm going out, and then take Him off when I come in. He is ALWAYS there, if I am there.

But here is another scripture: The man of lawlessness will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2Thes.2:4).

I hope the Bible is talking about a building......cause the devil is not gonna set himself up in me.

Holland



The Devil would never set himself up within a born-again believer of Christ. However, as each successive generation is born and becomes less and less Christian, and more and more apostate and fallen away; then we see how Satan is able to more and more corrupt and infiltrate the corporte church.

This is how he sits and exalts himself within the temple; not a rebuilt building; but rather, the mechanism God used over the ages to distribute the gospel.

Prior to Christ's return, the corportate church will be almost totally apostate; (not because believers have fallen away), but that there will just be fewer and fewer people who comprise the true church.

Is Society more Christian today than it was in 1980....1950....see the decay and growth of corruption...even with the corportate church?

True Christians still exist; but they become fewer and fewer with each successive generation as we near Christ's return; and that is how Satan is able to set himself up in that manner.

IMO.

Holland
Feb 8th 2008, 11:09 PM
because, when I read it, that's not what the Bible is saying to me.

And did you mean that Christians no longer partook in sacrifices after Jesus death on the cross? On that I agree, but there were still sacrifices in the time after Jesus time on earth.

Paul, Peter and others speak of sacrifices that continued throughout the New Testament.

And I have been reading that there are rabbis, called the "Re-established Sanhedrin" that are attempting to renew the sacrifices at the temple mount. Sounds to me like events being set up to fulfill the end times prophecys.


Holland

David Taylor
Feb 8th 2008, 11:22 PM
Question?

Do you believe a rebuilt stone temple would be a holy temple and a temple that God would endorse and be happy with....

or

do you believe it would be something that would be an afront to Jesus Christ, and make a mockery of what His sacrifice did for all mankind?

Holland
Feb 8th 2008, 11:26 PM
:eek:

I believe the Bible......not sure where you're going with your question David.....maybe if you posted scripture that supports your belief that if I believe that Solomon's temple will be rebuilt it would be 'an afront to Jesus Christ, and make a mockery of what His sacrifice'.......I'm big on scripture....not so big on opinion.


Holland

David Taylor
Feb 8th 2008, 11:36 PM
:eek:

I believe the Bible......not sure where you're going with your question David.....maybe if you posted scripture that supports your belief that if I believe that Solomon's temple will be rebuilt it would be 'an afront to Jesus Christ, and make a mockery of what His sacrifice'.......I'm big on scripture....not so big on opinion.
Holland

Sure thing. Be glad to.

Mark 14:58 "I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. "

and

Hebrews 9:11 "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

and

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true"

and

Hebrews 10:1 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Wherefore when Christ cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) I come to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"




Now, after reading those scriptures above:

1) Do you believe a rebuilt stone temple would be a holy temple and a temple that God would endorse and be happy with (in light of what Christ accomplished above)?

or

2) Do you believe a return to a rebuilt stone temple with animal sacrifices for sin offerings would be an afront to Jesus Christ, and make a mockery of what His sacrifice did for all mankind?



Which question do you find to be biblically accurate?

Holland
Feb 9th 2008, 12:12 AM
:confused

There was nothing in those scriptures that state that I am being an 'afront or mocking' to believe that Solomon's temple will be rebuilt.


John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Yes, Jesus was talking about His body....but there is nothing here to say Solomon's temple will not be rebuilt. As a matter of fact, Jesus says this:

Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

And why did you stop in your verses from Hebrews?

I wish you had completed them.....because you realize that the complete truth is that Jesus did not enter a building....BUT HEAVEN......come on David. To use this passage would imply that the devil is suppose be 'seen'.... as Jesus stated in Matt 24...IN HEAVEN.

Sorry, we're not going to agree on this.

Holland

Holland

David Taylor
Feb 9th 2008, 12:19 AM
There was nothing in those scriptures that state that I am being an 'afront or mocking' to believe that Solomon's temple will be rebuilt.


Sorry if you took that earlier comment the wrong way.

I was not meaning you were being an afront or mocking Jesus.

I was meaning that I believe a rebuilt temple instituting animal sacrifices of bulls and goats for sin offerings for the sanctification of the people would be.

But I see that you seem to think that is OK, and that God will be happy with reinstituting those things in that environment in the future; so I won't push you on it.

Sorry to have troubled you about it.

Holland
Feb 9th 2008, 12:28 AM
and I do not take offense.

Holland

seeker_truth
Feb 9th 2008, 12:40 AM
Ezekiel doesn't mention a Millennial Reign.

Ezekiel shows a blue-print given by God to Ezekiel during the Babylonian Captivity pre 572 B.C., which was condition upon the faithfulness of Israel to the Lord.

The temple building program began under Zerubbabel, and is discussed in Nehemiah and Ezra; however, the Israelites soon fell back away from following the Lord; and the temple was never completed to the grand scale given in the vision to Ezekiel.

We can know that this blue-print given to Ezekiel could never have been intended to be a true rebuilt stone temple neither at the end of time; nor after the endtime Return of Christ; because it depicts a return to animal sacrifices for the sins of the people; for sanctification; and for purification.

All of these types of rituals were still occuring during the times of Zerubbabel and Nehemiah and Ezra; following 572 B.C.; but ceased forevermore in the 1st century A.D.; with the final and complete perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ; the holy sinless Lamb slain; perfecting the pre-type that came before Him.

Many times in the NT, it is shown that the true temple from that point forward, was not the stone temple made with hands that was destroyed; but rather, the true temple made without Hands, Jesus Christ being the Cornerstone.

Other reasons that the Ezekiel temple can never be built in our future, besides the return to animal sacrifices for sin; is that the Ezekiel temple is stated to be Holy to the Lord; and that He accepted and required those animal sacrifices; again something that after the cross; would be an affront to the accomplishment made by Christ's own final sacrifice.

Ezekiel's temple depicts sinful rebels within its temple and throughout Jerusalem; and where physical circumcision of the flesh was still required; another act that the New Testament did away with through the blood of Christ.

The veil was of great importance in the temple, until the cross. Yet, it seems to be missing from Ezekiel's blueprint...Maybe, it wasn't needed any longer.

BTW, How shall Zech.14:20 be fulfilled without a temple?
"In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar."

Animal sacrifices, well, let's say you are a Jew, one who was in denial before the return of Christ. Great trib. has come and gone, and you're still standing. Perhaps, the best way to keep things in remembrance for both you and your many offspring is to continue with a few animal sacrifices, which for some reason seem to greatly please the Lord.

Who can know the mind of God or understand his wisdom? We simply do what is asked of us.

seeker

heart hammer
Feb 9th 2008, 12:45 AM
You may consider that this is the blueprint for the heavenly temple. It may be the one God is building using us.
Consider how New Jerusalem is described....
Just another thought
Take care and God Bless

heart hammer
Feb 9th 2008, 12:48 AM
This is the very reason we need to know exactly who we are serving and what we trust in.
a thousand shall fall at thy left side and ten thousand at thy right hand but it shall not come nigh unto thee.....
Hold fast to that which ye have recieved

heart hammer
Feb 9th 2008, 12:50 AM
If one believes they are saved then they will no longer seek salvation....
I had very good friends who are so fallen from grace that they believe they no longer need the bible because the Word is in their heart. and "his" spirit now guides them this is the abomination of desolation

heart hammer
Feb 9th 2008, 12:53 AM
There is verse in Jeremiah which speaks of their sacrifices as abominable and states that in that day when they sacrifice a sheep it will be as if they cut the neck of a dog...something to that affect. It is clear what is being stated.

seeker_truth
Feb 9th 2008, 01:04 AM
There is verse in Jeremiah which speaks of their sacrifices as abominable and states that in that day when they sacrifice a sheep it will be as if they cut the neck of a dog...something to that affect. It is clear what is being stated.

It really all depends on those that are doing the cutting. A Jew who doesn't obey and/or believe prepares only an abominable sacrifice.

seeker

Roelof
Feb 9th 2008, 05:03 AM
heart hammer

Until the Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Babylonians.html) some four hundred years later, in 586 B.C.E. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/glossB.html#bce), sacrifice (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html) was the predominant mode of divine service there. Seventy years later, a second Temple was built on the same site, and sacrifices (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html) again resumed. During the first century B.C.E., Herod greatly enlarged and expanded this Temple. The Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Romans.html) in 70 C.E., after the failure of the Great Revolt (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt.html).


To this day, traditional Jews pray three times a day for the Temple's restoration. During the centuries the Muslims (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/islamtoc.html) controlled Palestine, two mosques were built on the site of the Jewish Temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_temple

ShirleyFord
Feb 9th 2008, 03:03 PM
Animal sacrifices, well, let's say you are a Jew, one who was in denial before the return of Christ. Great trib. has come and gone, and you're still standing. Perhaps, the best way to keep things in remembrance for both you and your many offspring is to continue with a few animal sacrifices, which for some reason seem to greatly please the Lord.

Who can know the mind of God or understand his wisdom? We simply do what is asked of us.

seeker

We can only know the mind of God through His written word of God. We can only understand His wisdom by His Holy Spirit in us when He saves us.

Will you provide all of the Scriptures you have found that says that any animal sacrifice by any peoples of this world "greatly please the Lord" after the crucifixion of Christ?

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

To continue offering animal sacrifices after the crucifixion of Christ is to deny His perfect offering for sin.

And why would anyone need to offer animal sacrifices to remember the Lord Jesus after His Second Coming with Him standing right there in front of them? If they need to remind themselves of Him, all they have to do is look at Him, touch Him, hug Him, speak to Him, hear Him.


Shirley

John146
Feb 9th 2008, 08:39 PM
:confused

I agree that our bodys are the temple of God. Everywhere I go, God is there. I do not put Him on like a jacket when I'm going out, and then take Him off when I come in. He is ALWAYS there, if I am there.

But here is another scripture: The man of lawlessness will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2Thes.2:4).

I hope the Bible is talking about a building......cause the devil is not gonna set himself up in me.

Holland

I believe that passage is speaking about the church of God. The church is also referred to as the temple of God.

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. - 2 Cor 6:16

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. - Eph 2:19-22

Here is an example of how Satan and his false prophets and teachers set themselves up in the temple of God, if we understand the temple of God to be the church of God:

28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. - Acts 20:28-30

Eric

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2008, 09:33 PM
[quote=heart hammer;1530997]Where does it say anywhere in bible prophecy that their will be a rebuilt temple in the city of Jerusalem? Another question was it this fabled place that Jesus spoke of in Mattew 24:15? "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy place, (Whoso readeth, let him understand)."
I would have to consider any rebuilt temple in Jerusalem to be an abomination. A building is no longer a Holy place. We are the Holy building whose builder and maker is God. Not built by might of by strength but by His Spirit.....
Just a thought
Take Care and God Bless[/quote

Mt 24:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

There is no mention of Christ of rebuilding, but of destruction.

ross3421
Feb 11th 2008, 05:26 AM
What holy place is the AC standing in below? If there is not one to be rebuilt then which building today will he stand?

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Jerusalem will again be destroyed by the coming of the (Anti) Christ just as Christ will destroy earthly Jerusalem as well. I see the AC doing it to mimic the coming of Christ. So, a temple will need to be rebuilt which the AC will have the inhabitants of the earth perform.

Re 13:14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

If those on the earth were to make an image of God today what would they build? A temple. Likewise these inhabitants believe that the beast is the messiah so they build a temple to house his father's glory.

Mark

Firstfruits
Feb 11th 2008, 01:54 PM
What holy place is the AC standing in below? If there is not one to be rebuilt then which building today will he stand?

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Jerusalem will again be destroyed by the coming of the (Anti) Christ just as Christ will destroy earthly Jerusalem as well. I see the AC doing it to mimic the coming of Christ. So, a temple will need to be rebuilt which the AC will have the inhabitants of the earth perform.

Re 13:14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

If those on the earth were to make an image of God today what would they build? A temple. Likewise these inhabitants believe that the beast is the messiah so they build a temple to house his father's glory.

Mark

With the understanding that Jesus was talking about the end of the world, then would that mean that he was talking about more than the destucttion of the temple but the whole world? when the temple has been destroyed in the past it was not the end of the world, but when the kingdom of the beast is destroyed so will the rest of the world at the coming of Christ.
Mt 24:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

ShirleyFord
Feb 12th 2008, 02:09 AM
With the understanding that Jesus was talking about the end of the world, then would that mean that he was talking about more than the destucttion of the temple but the whole world? when the temple has been destroyed in the past it was not the end of the world, but when the kingdom of the beast is destroyed so will the rest of the world at the coming of Christ.
Mt 24:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

When we put v. 1 with v. 2, we can clearly see that Jesus was referring to the temple that He had just walked out of, the second stone temple, and not to the end of the world:

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Shirley

ross3421
Feb 12th 2008, 02:23 AM
When we put v. 1 with v. 2, we can clearly see that Jesus was referring to the temple that He had just walked out of, the second stone temple, and not to the end of the world:

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Shirley

Shirley,

He showed the Aposltles the current building as a reference for things to come when he returns. I would suspect that thought the temple was destroyed in 70AD, there was a stone left upon another........

Do you really think the apostles asked questions which events were thousands of years apart? What made them ask about the end of the world then?

Mt 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Reason being is there is yet a future temple whereby the AC will commit abomination and will be thrown down. Clearly we see this in the following verses.


Mark

ShirleyFord
Feb 12th 2008, 02:40 AM
Shirley,

He showed the Aposltles the current building as a reference for things to come when he returns. I would suspect that thought the temple was destroyed in 70AD, there was a stone left upon another........

Do you really think the apostles asked questions which events were thousands of years apart? What made them ask about the end of the world then?

Mt 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Reason being is there is yet a future temple whereby the AC will commit abomination and will be thrown down. Clearly we see this in the following verses.


Mark

Which following verses Mark do you find a future rebuilt third temple for the AC.

Jesus was clearly prophecying the destruction of the second temple that He had just walked out of in Matthew 24:1-2.

What particular time was Jesus referring to just before He left out of the temple?

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Codger
Feb 12th 2008, 03:50 AM
What does history say about rebuilding Herod's Temple at Jerusalem? The Jews made three attempts to rebuild the Temple, but were frustrated in every attempt. The first attempt was during the Bar Kochba revolt in 135AD. This attempt was put down by the Emperor Hadrian. The second attempt was in 324AD under Constantine. He gave permission and later withdrew it by cutting off the ears of the priests and craftsmen. No maimed person could work on the Temple. The third attempt was under the emperor Julian the Apostate. This was frustrated yet again by subterranean fires, which destroyed the works early in its construction.

How about a new temple? It will never happen because God is continually frustrating any movement in that direction. There is not one shred of an indication anywhere that this will happen. There is no longer any need for the old animal sacrifice system because the once and for all sacrifice has been made. God is trying to direct, steer, herd, the Jews into the New Covenant.

Consider that even today God has already frustrated all the Orthodox plans for a new Temple because the place where they think it should go is under the control of the Muslims. This is the forth frustrated attempt to rebuild the Temple.

Larry

ross3421
Feb 12th 2008, 04:14 AM
What does history say about rebuilding Herod's Temple at Jerusalem? The Jews made three attempts to rebuild the Temple, but were frustrated in every attempt. The first attempt was during the Bar Kochba revolt in 135AD. This attempt was put down by the Emperor Hadrian. The second attempt was in 324AD under Constantine. He gave permission and later withdrew it by cutting off the ears of the priests and craftsmen. No maimed person could work on the Temple. The third attempt was under the emperor Julian the Apostate. This was frustrated yet again by subterranean fires, which destroyed the works early in its construction.

How about a new temple? It will never happen because God is continually frustrating any movement in that direction. There is not one shred of an indication anywhere that this will happen. There is no longer any need for the old animal sacrifice system because the once and for all sacrifice has been made. God is trying to direct, steer, herd, the Jews into the New Covenant.

Consider that even today God has already frustrated all the Orthodox plans for a new Temple because the place where they think it should go is under the control of the Muslims. This is the forth frustrated attempt to rebuild the Temple.

Larry

So what temple will the little horn stand?


Mark

2Witnesses
Feb 12th 2008, 04:39 AM
Sorry,

But I have not followed this thread; so I hope I do not repeat things. That said! There will be a third temple in Jerusalem.

This temple, desired by some Jews, and some Christians, will be built by Anti-Christ, not by God, or godly men. AC will claim to be the Messiah. He will be a 'soloman ', promising peace and the exaltation of Israel as the chief of the mountains.

Jerusalem he will make an international city, honoring three faiths. And he will claim this is the fullfilled prophecy, 'My house shall be a house of prayer for all nations.'

2Witnesses

ross3421
Feb 12th 2008, 06:50 AM
Sorry,

But I have not followed this thread; so I hope I do not repeat things. That said! There will be a third temple in Jerusalem.

This temple, desired by some Jews, and some Christians, will be built by Anti-Christ, not by God, or godly men. AC will claim to be the Messiah. He will be a 'soloman ', promising peace and the exaltation of Israel as the chief of the mountains.


Amen.




Jerusalem he will make an international city, honoring three faiths. And he will claim this is the fullfilled prophecy, 'My house shall be a house of prayer for all nations.'

2Witnesses


Jerusalem will be THE city. One king, one faith.


Mark

ross3421
Feb 12th 2008, 09:21 AM
Which following verses Mark do you find a future rebuilt third temple for the AC.


Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)



Jesus was clearly prophecying the destruction of the second temple that He had just walked out of in Matthew 24:1-2.


The primary focus was a time when Christ shall return. Even the apostles knew this and why they asked him when will be the end of the world. What occurred in 70 AD was merely a foreshadow of what was to come and an example to the apostles.



Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.



I thought we were speaking of chapter 24? Sure chapter 23 "this generation" is the one which he speaks. Then 24 transitions with the temple to be destoyed to represent past and future and chpater 24 speaks of this time.

Chapter 23 - This generation (first century)

Destruction of the Temple (first century & time of Christ return)

Chapter 24 - This generation (Christ's return)



So I see it as both whereas you soley see the destruction as past. You and others on this board seem to limit scriptures to mere history. It is alive.


Mark

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 12:31 PM
Which following verses Mark do you find a future rebuilt third temple for the AC.

Jesus was clearly prophecying the destruction of the second temple that He had just walked out of in Matthew 24:1-2.

What particular time was Jesus referring to just before He left out of the temple?

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


With regards to the following scripture, with the fact that the beast and the false prophet will be here when Christ returns, when the antichrist stand in the holy place where will it be?

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 14:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Where will the great city babylon be located?

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 12:54 PM
What holy place is the AC standing in below? If there is not one to be rebuilt then which building today will he stand?

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)



Most 1st Century Jews considered and accepted the inner part of Herod's temple as "the holy place", Previously prophesied as being entered and destroyed 14 verses earlier.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 01:28 PM
Most 1st Century Jews considered and accepted the inner part of Herod's temple as "the holy place", Previously prophesied as being entered and destroyed 14 verses earlier.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?

You then need look at The answer that Jesus gave the disciples to get the full meaning;

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

At what point does he mention the destruction of the temple?

What is the end that shall come?

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 01:34 PM
You then need look at The answer that Jesus gave the disciples to get the full meaning;

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

At what point does he mention the destruction of the temple?

What is the end that shall come?



When they saw the Roman Gentiles standing in their holy place behind the veil, and inside the place that only the high-priest could go....then they understood, because they knew this was a similar thing Antichios did, when he entered the Holy Place; and a gentile heathen sacrificed a pig. When the stones began to come down, one off of another, this is when they know the temple was coming down.

As far as the question about the end of the world; Jesus switches over and begins to put more focus on that; around verses 27-31; and then from about verse 24:25 through the end of chapter 24 and all of chapter 25; Jesus spends solely dedicated to answering the second part of the question; about what happens long after the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed; going all the way to the end of the world and His Glorious Appearing.

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 02:00 PM
When they saw the Roman Gentiles standing in their holy place behind the veil, and inside the place that only the high-priest could go....then they understood, because they knew this was a similar thing Antichios did, when he entered the Holy Place; and a gentile heathen sacrificed a pig. When the stones began to come down, one off of another, this is when they know the temple was coming down.

As far as the question about the end of the world; Jesus switches over and begins to put more focus on that; around verses 27-31; and then from about verse 24:25 through the end of chapter 24 and all of chapter 25; Jesus spends solely dedicated to answering the second part of the question; about what happens long after the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed; going all the way to the end of the world and His Glorious Appearing.

Jesus answers them after the question is asked and the is no mention of the temple being destroyed.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

He goes straight to the false christs and the persecutions and aflictions of the saints, at the hands of the false prophet/antichrist. it is from this that Jerusalem will be destroyed.

Rev 19:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 02:50 PM
Jesus answers them after the question is asked and the is no mention of the temple being destroyed.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

He goes straight to the false christs and the persecutions and aflictions of the saints, at the hands of the false prophet/antichrist. it is from this that Jerusalem will be destroyed.

Rev 19:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.



I don't think they would have had any difficulty understanding when he had said just a few sentences earlier, that their city and temple would be destroyed; the tie-in to a few sentences later when he said they would understand when their city was surrounded and their holy place was trampled underfoot. (Luke's wording I think)

As for revelation 19:2; I see that as the final judgment, not on 1st century Israel; but on all the wicked of all time; the great whore who has lived in every generation of history; and has stood against God; and killed His servants.

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 03:52 PM
When they saw the Roman Gentiles standing in their holy place behind the veil, and inside the place that only the high-priest could go....then they understood, because they knew this was a similar thing Antichios did, when he entered the Holy Place; and a gentile heathen sacrificed a pig. When the stones began to come down, one off of another, this is when they know the temple was coming down.

As far as the question about the end of the world; Jesus switches over and begins to put more focus on that; around verses 27-31; and then from about verse 24:25 through the end of chapter 24 and all of chapter 25; Jesus spends solely dedicated to answering the second part of the question; about what happens long after the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed; going all the way to the end of the world and His Glorious Appearing.

Would you say that the temple still stands today,even in part?

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 04:03 PM
Would you say that the temple still stands today,even in part?


No, None of the temple still stands today.

Jesus said it would be destroyed, and all of its buildings.

That happened in complete fulfillment in the same Generation that Jesus prophesied it would occur.

The Wailing wall is not apart of the temple.
It is part of a retaining wall that was built around the bottom of the mountain, to keep it from washing and sliding away. All of the temple buildings that were on top of Mount Moriah were destroyed; with not one stone being left upon another.

There is not one place upon the top of Mount Moriah you can go to today; and touch with your hands, and see with your eyes, and say, 'this is apart of Herod's temple', as it stood during the time of Christ.

Some want to claim the Wailing wall is apart of the temple.

False.

That would be like Jesus prophesying that the Statue of Liberty would be destroyed and not one part would remain upon another....and then 30 years later the statue of liberty was torn down, and dismantled, and carted off.....yet because the sea-wall that surrounds the dock and outer edges of Bedloe Island was not destroyed; the prophecy about the desctruction of the Statue of Liberty was not fulfilled.

The sea-wall surrounding Bedloe Island is not apart of the Statue of Liberty.
The Wailing wall supporting part of Mt Moriah is not apart of the Temple complex.

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 04:17 PM
No, None of the temple still stands today.

Jesus said it would be destroyed, and all of its buildings.

That happened in complete fulfillment in the same Generation that Jesus prophesied it would occur.

The Wailing wall is not apart of the temple.
It is part of a retaining wall that was built around the bottom of the mountain, to keep it from washing and sliding away. All of the temple buildings that were on top of Mount Moriah were destroyed; with not one stone being left upon another.

There is not one place upon the top of Mount Moriah you can go to today; and touch with your hands, and see with your eyes, and say, 'this is apart of Herod's temple', as it stood during the time of Christ.

Some want to claim the Wailing wall is apart of the temple.

False.

That would be like Jesus prophesying that the Statue of Liberty would be destroyed and not one part would remain upon another....and then 30 years later the statue of liberty was torn down, and dismantled, and carted off.....yet because the sea-wall that surrounds the dock and outer edges of Bedloe Island was not destroyed; the prophecy about the desctruction of the Statue of Liberty was not fulfilled.

The sea-wall surrounding Bedloe Island is not apart of the Statue of Liberty.
The Wailing wall supporting part of Mt Moriah is not apart of the Temple complex.

What was the cause of the destruction of the temple, since according to Jesus it happens around the false prophets, and false christs? This however cannot be the same as The false prophet that shall be here at Christs return.

Codger
Feb 12th 2008, 04:20 PM
So what temple will the little horn stand?


Mark

Well, I think it is already in the past - if you are talking about the "Little Horn" of Daniel 8:9 who was Antiochus Epiphanes who desecrated the Temple in about 167BC - The Temple was retaken and cleansed 3 1/2 years later just like Daniel said. The daily sacrifice had ceased during this time. (Two Tamid sacrifices - lambs - per day).

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 04:31 PM
Well, I think it is already in the past - if you are talking about the "Little Horn" of Daniel 8:9 who was Antiochus Epiphanes who desecrated the Temple in about 167BC - The Temple was retaken and cleansed 3 1/2 years later just like Daniel said. The daily sacrifice had ceased during this time. (Two Tamid sacrifices - lambs - per day).

What in Daniel was Jesus refering to concerning the abomination standing in the holy place with understanding that the beast and the false prophet will be here at Christs return?

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 04:39 PM
What was the cause of the destruction of the temple, since according to Jesus it happens around the false prophets, and false christs? This however cannot be the same as The false prophet that shall be here at Christs return.

The cause of the destruction of the temple; was because the Jews rejected Jesus, the final eternal sacrifice; and it was to show them that their faith was misplaced in stone buildings made with hands; instead of the true temple made without hands (Jesus).

False prophets always exist. They were there before the Flood; and they will be here before the Glorious Appearing of Christ. Evidently, according to Revelation; this will become a much more severe occurance just before the end.

What was it that John said?

I John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you."


That is just as applicable today; as it was when John wrote it down to paper in the first century.

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 04:45 PM
The cause of the destruction of the temple; was because the Jews rejected Jesus, the final eternal sacrifice; and it was to show them that their faith was misplaced in stone buildings made with hands; instead of the true temple made without hands (Jesus).

False prophets always exist. They were there before the Flood; and they will be here before the Glorious Appearing of Christ. Evidently, according to Revelation; this will become a much more severe occurance just before the end.

What was it that John said?

I John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you."


That is just as applicable today; as it was when John wrote it down to paper in the first century.

There truly have been many false prophets/antichrists, but none like the beast and the false prophet of Revelation 13, would you agree? These will be here when Christ returns and are indentifiable by their deeds.

Codger
Feb 12th 2008, 04:46 PM
No, None of the temple still stands today.

Jesus said it would be destroyed, and all of its buildings.

That happened in complete fulfillment in the same Generation that Jesus prophesied it would occur.

The Wailing wall is not apart of the temple.
It is part of a retaining wall that was built around the bottom of the mountain, to keep it from washing and sliding away. All of the temple buildings that were on top of Mount Moriah were destroyed; with not one stone being left upon another.

There is not one place upon the top of Mount Moriah you can go to today; and touch with your hands, and see with your eyes, and say, 'this is apart of Herod's temple', as it stood during the time of Christ.

Some want to claim the Wailing wall is apart of the temple.

False.

That would be like Jesus prophesying that the Statue of Liberty would be destroyed and not one part would remain upon another....and then 30 years later the statue of liberty was torn down, and dismantled, and carted off.....yet because the sea-wall that surrounds the dock and outer edges of Bedloe Island was not destroyed; the prophecy about the desctruction of the Statue of Liberty was not fulfilled.

The sea-wall surrounding Bedloe Island is not apart of the Statue of Liberty.
The Wailing wall supporting part of Mt Moriah is not apart of the Temple complex.

I have read the late E. Martin's research on the location of the Temple and am convinced that it is accurate. What is being called "The Temple Mount" today is none other than the Fortress Antonia or Praetorium. In Jesus' day this was a Roman city within Jerusalem and the Jews wouldn't even go near it or they would become defiled - today they worship at its wall. The probable Temple site looked like this...

TEMPLE DRAWING (http://www.askelm.com/tdetail.htm)

Remember that Josephus said that the pinnicle of the Temple had a 450 foot drop on its SouthEast corner. The present day "Temple Mount" has no such dimension. The Apostle James was thrown from this height to his death. Jesus was tempted at this pinnacle.

No, the Temple and the 600 foot tower (150 feet went down to bedrock) on which it was built was totally destroyed. There was a practical reason for this. The Temple was just loaded with gold and silver. It was also a repository for the wealth of the city - this added more gold and silver. When the Temple was burned in 70AD all this metal flowed down into the cracks in the stones and was retrieved by moving every last stone out of its place - just Like Jesus said it would be. The stones were all used for other buildings at the time following 70AD. I don't know if any survived. I did read that Omar the Second Caliph retrieved the threshold stone of the Temple and it is now in the Mosque that he built on the so called "Temple Mount."

Larry

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 05:03 PM
There truly have been many false prophets/antichrists, but none like the beast and the false prophet of Revelation 13, would you agree? These will be here when Christ returns and are indentifiable by their deeds.

I don't have a problem with that expectation. I think things will get worse and worse; just prior to the Lord's return.

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 07:01 PM
I don't have a problem with that expectation. I think things will get worse and worse; just prior to the Lord's return.

With that in mind Matthew 24 would therefore apply to the future when you compare what happens to the saints at the hands of the beast/antichrist;
Mt 24:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mt 24:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mt 24:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mt 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If the antichrist is future, in which temple of God shall he sit.

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 07:06 PM
With that in mind Matthew 24 would therefore apply to the future when you compare what happens to the saints at the hands of the beast/antichrist;


Again, It seems clear to me, that Matthew 23-25 applies to both the first century; and to the end-time.

Jesus is asked two questions in 24:3.

Q1) When will the first century events occur (destruction of the temple)?
Q2) When will you Return at the end of the world?

Some of the verses in answering these two questions address either question; and some are vague enough to apply to either venue.




Mt 24:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mt 24:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mt 24:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mt 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


All of these particular verses, could be applied to things occuring to believers in both the 1st century A.D.; and throughout the NT era; and at the final time prior to Christ's Return.


Marytrs have existed throughout.
False prophets and deceivers have existed throughout.
People claiming to be Christ have existed throughout.Some of Matthew 23-25 applies to 1st century events.
Some of Matthew 23-25 applies to End-Time events.
Some of Matthew 23-25 applies equally in all venues inbetween.

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 07:25 PM
Again, It seems clear to me, that Matthew 23-25 applies to both the first century; and to the end-time.

Jesus is asked two questions in 24:3.

Q1) When will the first century events occur (destruction of the temple)?
Q2) When will you Return at the end of the world?

Some of the verses in answering these two questions address either question; and some are vague enough to apply to either venue.





All of these particular verses, could be applied to things occuring to believers in both the 1st century A.D.; and throughout the NT era; and at the final time prior to Christ's Return.

Marytrs have existed throughout.
False prophets and deceivers have existed throughout.
People claiming to be Christ have existed throughout.Some of Matthew 23-25 applies to 1st century events.
Some of Matthew 23-25 applies to End-Time events.
Some of Matthew 23-25 applies equally in all venues inbetween.

The events of the 1st century did not end with the return of Christ, the events of the of Revelation 13 etc will.

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 07:38 PM
The events of the 1st century did not end with the return of Christ, the events of the of Revelation 13 etc will.



I agree. Two different events being discussed in Matthew 23-25.

Some things were fulfilled and ended in the 1st century A.D.
Some things will be fulfilled and ended in the last century A.D.

ross3421
Feb 12th 2008, 09:02 PM
I agree. Two different events being discussed in Matthew 23-25.

Some things were fulfilled and ended in the 1st century A.D.
Some things will be fulfilled and ended in the last century A.D.


Amen.....end of story. Prophecy is usually written in this manner applicable for yesterday and today and tomorrow.


Mark

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 08:44 AM
I agree. Two different events being discussed in Matthew 23-25.

Some things were fulfilled and ended in the 1st century A.D.
Some things will be fulfilled and ended in the last century A.D.

Is the following past or future? If future, will the temple of God in which he sits be destroyed?

2 Thess 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Is he the same as the beasts/antichrist in Revelation 13?

ShirleyFord
Feb 13th 2008, 11:32 AM
Is the following past or future? If future, will the temple of God in which he sits be destroyed?

2 Thess 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Is he the same as the beasts/antichrist in Revelation 13?

I believe that 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 13 is referring to the same time, Satan's little season, after the thousand years when Satan is loosed. But we don't find a third temple being rebuilt for the antichrist/beast in Rev 13 or Rev. 20.

Daniel 9:26b speaks of the second temple being destroyed. So does Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. But neither Daniel nor Jesus speaks of a third temple being rebuilt so antichrist can have somewhere to place his throne and cause Israel to know that he is not their promised Messiah so he can stop the Levitical priesthood from offering animal sacrifices for their sins and kill two-thirds of them to force them to accept their true Messiah, Jesus Christ, at His Second Coming.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 12:10 PM
I believe that 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 13 is referring to the same time, Satan's little season, after the thousand years when Satan is loosed. But we don't find a third temple being rebuilt for the antichrist/beast in Rev 13 or Rev. 20.

Daniel 9:26b speaks of the second temple being destroyed. So does Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. But neither Daniel nor Jesus speaks of a third temple being rebuilt so antichrist can have somewhere to place his throne and cause Israel to know that he is not their promised Messiah so he can stop the Levitical priesthood from offering animal sacrifices for their sins and kill two-thirds of them to force them to accept their true Messiah, Jesus Christ, at His Second Coming.


Shirley

Although it may not mention another temple being built, but the beast/antichrist will sit in the temple of God as it is written.

2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 12:51 PM
Although it may not mention another temple being built,


Very wise statement. It isn't mentioned anywhere in the entire Bible.




but the beast/antichrist will sit in the temple of God as it is written.

2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Nothing in that verse, however, says a rebuilt stone building will be the temple of God. God's people are His temple according to the N.T., not Herod's long destroyed temple, nor any future stone temple that Scripture doesn't mention being built and which would serve no purpose but to mock Christ.


How are God's people, His temple; made to be a place for Satan to sit in and magnify himself as God? Look around you at the stances, teachings, and beliefs in todays churches, and how they continue to spiral away from God and to Satan. Each successive generation is less and less godly and more worldly; and the church continues to be infiltrated by Satan and the things he exalts.

The falling away and apostacy as Paul spoke of in 2 Thess chapter 2, will conintue until the Lord Jesus Christ appears, and saves the remaining faithful; and destroys the wicked with the Brightness of His Appearing.

Roelof
Feb 13th 2008, 12:55 PM
Until the Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Babylonians.html) some four hundred years later, in 586 B.C.E. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/glossB.html#bce), sacrifice (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html) was the predominant mode of divine service there. Seventy years later, a second Temple was built on the same site, and sacrifices (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html) again resumed. During the first century B.C.E., Herod greatly enlarged and expanded this Temple. The Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Romans.html) in 70 C.E., after the failure of the Great Revolt (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt.html).

To this day, traditional Jews pray three times a day for the Temple's restoration. During the centuries the Muslims (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/islamtoc.html) controlled Palestine, two mosques were built on the site of the Jewish Temple.

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 01:20 PM
Until the Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Babylonians.html) some four hundred years later, in 586 B.C.E. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/glossB.html#bce), sacrifice (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html) was the predominant mode of divine service there.

HHhhhmmm.....:hmm:


Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psa 51:16 "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

Psa 107:22 And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.

Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD.

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 01:27 PM
Very wise statement. It isn't mentioned anywhere in the entire Bible.

Nothing in that verse, however, says a rebuilt stone building will be the temple of God. God's people are His temple according to the N.T., not Herod's long destroyed temple, nor any future stone temple that Scripture doesn't mention being built and which would serve no purpose but to mock Christ.


How are God's people, His temple; made to be a place for Satan to sit in and magnify himself as God? Look around you at the stances, teachings, and beliefs in todays churches, and how they continue to spiral away from God and to Satan. Each successive generation is less and less godly and more worldly; and the church continues to be infiltrated by Satan and the things he exalts.

The falling away and apostacy as Paul spoke of in 2 Thess chapter 2, will conintue until the Lord Jesus Christ appears, and saves the remaining faithful; and destroys the wicked with the Brightness of His Appearing.

Would the following scripture then apply?

1 Pet 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Which would also apply to these;

Jer 25:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jer 25:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Therefore prophesy thou against Them all These words, and say unto Them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as They that tread The grapes, against all The inhabitants of The earth.

Ps 75:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=75&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The earth and all The inhabitants Thereof are dissolved: I bear up The pillars of it. Selah.

John146
Feb 13th 2008, 06:39 PM
The events of the 1st century did not end with the return of Christ, the events of the of Revelation 13 etc will.

Do you believe the following is going to happen in the future?

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:20-24

Remember, Jesus was asked two (or three) questions. When would the temple be destroyed (when shall these things be) and what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age.

Now, you, for some reason, seem to think that He did not even answer the question regarding the destruction of the temple. But, is it just a coincidence that what He describes in Luke 21:20-24 (and in the parallel passages of Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20) happened in 70 AD? Notice that Jesus mentions that they would fall "by the edge of the sword". Do they still use swords as weapons today? Rarely, maybe. Do you really think that Jews will be led away captive into all nations at some point in the future? I thought that already happened around 70 AD?

I believe you are missing that Jesus was asked two different questions that related to two different time frames. One related to the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and the temple buildings and that was fulfilled in 70 AD. The other question relates to the time when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the age and that is yet to be fulfilled. Determining which verses relate to which time period is tricky, but one thing that doesn't make sense to me is when people think He didn't answer the question regarding when the temple standing at that time would be destroyed. Why wouldn't He answer it? Some try to resolve this problem by saying part of the temple still stands but that is a very weak argument that is easily refuted.

Eric

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 07:51 PM
Do you believe the following is going to happen in the future?

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:20-24

Remember, Jesus was asked two (or three) questions. When would the temple be destroyed (when shall these things be) and what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age.

Now, you, for some reason, seem to think that He did not even answer the question regarding the destruction of the temple. But, is it just a coincidence that what He describes in Luke 21:20-24 (and in the parallel passages of Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20) happened in 70 AD? Notice that Jesus mentions that they would fall "by the edge of the sword". Do they still use swords as weapons today? Rarely, maybe. Do you really think that Jews will be led away captive into all nations at some point in the future? I thought that already happened around 70 AD?

I believe you are missing that Jesus was asked two different questions that related to two different time frames. One related to the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and the temple buildings and that was fulfilled in 70 AD. The other question relates to the time when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the age and that is yet to be fulfilled. Determining which verses relate to which time period is tricky, but one thing that doesn't make sense to me is when people think He didn't answer the question regarding when the temple standing at that time would be destroyed. Why wouldn't He answer it? Some try to resolve this problem by saying part of the temple still stands but that is a very weak argument that is easily refuted.

Eric

Jerusalem will be compassed after satan has been released from the pit when the thousand years are expired.

Rev 20:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

With the understanding that the beast and the false prophet are here at Christ return, then these events must be future.

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 08:04 PM
FF, Why didn't you answer John146's questions?

He very carefully laid them out, in reply to the passage you cited before.

Why not take that same care to answer them; instead of jumping out of that context, and changing the subject all the way to Revelation 16 & 20?


What about those specific things mentioned in Luke 21 regarding the temple question?

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 08:09 PM
FF, Why didn't you answer John146's questions?

He very carefully laid them out, in reply to the passage you cited before.

Why not take that same care to answer them; instead of jumping out of that context, and changing the subject all the way to Revelation 16 & 20?


What about those specific things mentioned in Luke 21 regarding the temple question?

I will check that, sorry if I missed it.

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 08:25 PM
Do you believe the following is going to happen in the future?

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:20-24

Remember, Jesus was asked two (or three) questions. When would the temple be destroyed (when shall these things be) and what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age.

Now, you, for some reason, seem to think that He did not even answer the question regarding the destruction of the temple. But, is it just a coincidence that what He describes in Luke 21:20-24 (and in the parallel passages of Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20) happened in 70 AD? Notice that Jesus mentions that they would fall "by the edge of the sword". Do they still use swords as weapons today? Rarely, maybe. Do you really think that Jews will be led away captive into all nations at some point in the future? I thought that already happened around 70 AD?

I believe you are missing that Jesus was asked two different questions that related to two different time frames. One related to the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and the temple buildings and that was fulfilled in 70 AD. The other question relates to the time when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the age and that is yet to be fulfilled. Determining which verses relate to which time period is tricky, but one thing that doesn't make sense to me is when people think He didn't answer the question regarding when the temple standing at that time would be destroyed. Why wouldn't He answer it? Some try to resolve this problem by saying part of the temple still stands but that is a very weak argument that is easily refuted.

Eric

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:20-24

This question has been answered in my earlier post that Jerusalem will compassed about when Christ returns.

Now, you, for some reason, seem to think that He did not even answer the question regarding the destruction of the temple. But, is it just a coincidence that what He describes in Luke 21:20-24 (and in the parallel passages of Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20) happened in 70 AD? Notice that Jesus mentions that they would fall "by the edge of the sword". Do they still use swords as weapons today? Rarely, maybe. Do you really think that Jews will be led away captive into all nations at some point in the future? I thought that already happened around 70 AD?

The beast and the false prophet will sit in the temple of God, we know that according to Rev.19 the beast and false prophet are destroyed when Christ returns.

I believe you are missing that Jesus was asked two different questions that related to two different time frames. One related to the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and the temple buildings and that was fulfilled in 70 AD. The other question relates to the time when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the age and that is yet to be fulfilled. Determining which verses relate to which time period is tricky, but one thing that doesn't make sense to me is when people think He didn't answer the question regarding when the temple standing at that time would be destroyed. Why wouldn't He answer it? Some try to resolve this problem by saying part of the temple still stands but that is a very weak argument that is easily refuted.

When Jesus returns we are told that this earth will pass away, and be no more, this includes Jerusalem which will be permanently destroyed, hence the New Heaven and the New Jerusalem.

Jerusalem at this time still stands.

John146
Feb 13th 2008, 09:47 PM
Jerusalem will be compassed after satan has been released from the pit when the thousand years are expired.

Rev 20:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

With the understanding that the beast and the false prophet are here at Christ return, then these events must be future.

Yes, I agree that those passages speak of a future event related to Satan's little season. I believe each passage is speaking of the same spiritual battle. And that's the key: it's a spiritual battle, not a physical one. It is not speaking of everyone that Satan deceives gathering together to surround Jerusalem. It is speaking about Satan deceiving people into uniting against the camp of the saints, which is the church. You're missing the symbolism in those passages. Think about it. Do you really believe that all of those people who Satan deceives "in the four quarters of the earth" (Rev 20:8) are going to gather together and travel to Jerusalem and surround it?

John146
Feb 13th 2008, 09:54 PM
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:20-24

This question has been answered in my earlier post that Jerusalem will compassed about when Christ returns.



Now, you, for some reason, seem to think that He did not even answer the question regarding the destruction of the temple. But, is it just a coincidence that what He describes in Luke 21:20-24 (and in the parallel passages of Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20) happened in 70 AD? Notice that Jesus mentions that they would fall "by the edge of the sword". Do they still use swords as weapons today? Rarely, maybe. Do you really think that Jews will be led away captive into all nations at some point in the future? I thought that already happened around 70 AD?

The beast and the false prophet will sit in the temple of God, we know that according to Rev.19 the beast and false prophet are destroyed when Christ returns.



I believe you are missing that Jesus was asked two different questions that related to two different time frames. One related to the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and the temple buildings and that was fulfilled in 70 AD. The other question relates to the time when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the age and that is yet to be fulfilled. Determining which verses relate to which time period is tricky, but one thing that doesn't make sense to me is when people think He didn't answer the question regarding when the temple standing at that time would be destroyed. Why wouldn't He answer it? Some try to resolve this problem by saying part of the temple still stands but that is a very weak argument that is easily refuted.

When Jesus returns we are told that this earth will pass away, and be no more, this includes Jerusalem which will be permanently destroyed, hence the New Heaven and the New Jerusalem.

Jerusalem at this time still stands.

What about the temple that existed at that time, though? Jesus said it would be destroyed and He was asked when that would happen. Do you believe that He did not answer that question, or do you believe part of the temple is still standing today? Or do you believe He did answer the question and if so, in which verses do you believe He answered it?

Firstfruits
Feb 14th 2008, 08:57 AM
What about the temple that existed at that time, though? Jesus said it would be destroyed and He was asked when that would happen. Do you believe that He did not answer that question, or do you believe part of the temple is still standing today? Or do you believe He did answer the question and if so, in which verses do you believe He answered it?

He answered them from v.14,15. He said the following;

Mt 24:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; And then shall the end come.
Mt 24:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This would then be in agreement with Daniel the prophet;

Dan 11:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) He shall enter also into tHe glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but tHese shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and tHe chief of tHe children of Ammon.
Dan 11:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

This will be the time of the end.

Dan 11:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Dan 11:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Dan 11:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Dan 12:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

How many times of the end shall there be, when Christ shall return?

Dan 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And at that time shall Michael stAnd up, the great prince which stAndeth for the children of thy people: And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, And some to shame And everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

John146
Feb 14th 2008, 08:09 PM
Okay, FF, so I guess your answer is that Jesus never answered the question regarding when the temple standing at that time (the second temple) would be destroyed. :giveup:

2Witnesses
Feb 15th 2008, 04:04 AM
Okay, FF, so I guess your answer is that Jesus never answered the question regarding when the temple standing at that time (the second temple) would be destroyed. :giveup:

John...,

Jesus said clearly the temple then standing would be destroyed within one generation. And no, there is no part of that temple which remains.

However, there does exist some of the foundation of the whole temple area. There is in fact, one stone that is so large that the Romans gave up trying to remove it. And the part which the Jews worship at today, known as the Wailing Wall, is, again, not a part of the temple itself. It is what remains of the retaining wall Herod built.

The temple 'building' itself was completely destroyed. And so, in keeping with this, Christ died, His body lay lifeless. And so He said, 'Destroy this place. And in 3 days raise it up.' Jn.

But to repeat. There will be another temple. This will be a man's temple, the work of those who know not God. AC will build this to appease the religious Jews. But also to deceive.

2Witnesses

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 08:51 AM
Okay, FF, so I guess your answer is that Jesus never answered the question regarding when the temple standing at that time (the second temple) would be destroyed. :giveup:

I believe Jesus was talking about the day of his return, have a look at the following and tell me what you think.

King James Version Zechariah 14

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The destroying of the temple will be at Christs return, when the temple was destroyed before it was not destroyed by Christ.

When Christ returns and destroys Jerusalem there will be nothing left, hence the reason for a new Jerusalem.

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 08:55 AM
John...,

Jesus said clearly the temple then standing would be destroyed within one generation. And no, there is no part of that temple which remains.

However, there does exist some of the foundation of the whole temple area. There is in fact, one stone that is so large that the Romans gave up trying to remove it. And the part which the Jews worship at today, known as the Wailing Wall, is, again, not a part of the temple itself. It is what remains of the retaining wall Herod built.

The temple 'building' itself was completely destroyed. And so, in keeping with this, Christ died, His body lay lifeless. And so He said, 'Destroy this place. And in 3 days raise it up.' Jn.

But to repeat. There will be another temple. This will be a man's temple, the work of those who know not God. AC will build this to appease the religious Jews. But also to deceive.

2Witnesses

This is also my understanding regading the Ac building, according to the following scripture.

Dan 11:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

2Witnesses
Feb 15th 2008, 01:05 PM
FF,

I am glad to hear that. Did you ever consider that Herod was a type of the AC?

I mean, he, like Herod through the forced conversions, claimed to be a Jew. And, AC, will likewise claim the throne.

Herod sought to destroy the one coming. And so the AC. And he, like Herod, will seek to destroy.

And, as in opposition to 'His star', he will claim the 'star of david.' And he will crush though the head of Moab.

2Witnesses

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 01:22 PM
FF,

I am glad to hear that. Did you ever consider that Herod was a type of the AC?

I mean, he, like Herod through the forced conversions, claimed to be a Jew. And, AC, will likewise claim the throne.

Herod sought to destroy the one coming. And so the AC. And he, like Herod, will seek to destroy.

And, as in opposition to 'His star', he will claim the 'star of david.' And he will crush though the head of Moab.

2Witnesses

One difference between Herod and the AC is the claim of his religion.

2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Claiming to be a Jew would mean that he wanted them to believe he served the same God, whereas the AC exalts himself above all that is worshiped.

John146
Feb 15th 2008, 02:39 PM
John...,

Jesus said clearly the temple then standing would be destroyed within one generation. And no, there is no part of that temple which remains.

However, there does exist some of the foundation of the whole temple area. There is in fact, one stone that is so large that the Romans gave up trying to remove it. And the part which the Jews worship at today, known as the Wailing Wall, is, again, not a part of the temple itself. It is what remains of the retaining wall Herod built.

The temple 'building' itself was completely destroyed. And so, in keeping with this, Christ died, His body lay lifeless. And so He said, 'Destroy this place. And in 3 days raise it up.' Jn.

But to repeat. There will be another temple. This will be a man's temple, the work of those who know not God. AC will build this to appease the religious Jews. But also to deceive.

2Witnesses

Where is the Scripture that speaks of a future Antichrist building a temple for the purpose of appeasing and deceiving religious Jews?

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 03:04 PM
Where is the Scripture that speaks of a future Antichrist building a temple for the purpose of appeasing and deceiving religious Jews?

When the Antichrist is being worshiped as though he is God then would his building not be the temple of God from where he rules his kingdom?

heart hammer
Feb 15th 2008, 06:23 PM
I will reference a few scriptures which will indicate what is talked about regarding the temple which exists and has existed since Christ and His resurrection.
First consider what Zechariah prophesied to Zerubbabel (chapter 4or5). Not by might nor by strength but by My Spirit. God is speaking of the a rebuilt temple made up of His Spirit even before the 2nd temple (herod's temple) was built.

Then consider what Paul speaks of about the temple.
Know ye not that ye (speaking to the believers He was addressing) are the temple of God?

Then see that it is God who allows the strong delusion mentioned in II Thess. chapter 2. Why would He do this? This is the hour of temptation which shall come upon the whole earth to try them that dwell upon the earth Revelation 3:10). He is speaking to the saints the elect which He has vowed to preserve from the false christs and false prophets. "...insomuch that if it were possible they shall decieve the very elect."

Now one very troubling statement that Christ spoke; "...what if it be already kindled, even so when the SOn of man returns shall He find faith upon the earth." This is a wake up call as to how many true believers will be left on the earth at His coming. Jesus said unto them, 'Take heed that no man decieve you formany shall come in My name saying I am Christ, and shall decieve many." These people are not coming in their name saying they are Christ, they are coming in His name saying He is Christ. But what Christ are they proclaiming? that is the core of the deception and the true nature of antichrist. Satan will use so much truth in his lies in order to convince us that he is true. He used the same tactic with Eve. He missquoted part of what God said before he outright proclaimed that God was lying. Now look at the world today.
When it says the powers of heaven shall be shaken I see the very foundations of our faith being shaken. Will we do as Jesus says and Hold Fast or will we fall away to perdition as the man of sin?
This is where I stand on the issue of the deception the delusion, and the lie which the "Many" shall believe. Those who heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. Those who give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
God said He will cause a famine, not of bread nor of water but of hearing the Word of God. Who is trully teaching the Word of God without the leaven of commentary.
Scripture is the only dictionary and commentary on other scripture.
Take Care and God Bless

John146
Feb 15th 2008, 06:42 PM
When the Antichrist is being worshiped as though he is God then would his building not be the temple of God from where he rules his kingdom?

No. Why would Paul call a temple "the temple of God" that was not truly the temple of God?

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 10:46 AM
Nope. No new Temple.

Read All of REVELATION Chapter 21 It's all about the New Heaven & New Earth.
(*Here's a quick look at verse 22 - )
REV. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

The destruction in 70 A.D. was the "End of the Age" spoken about in Matthew 24. The End of the Old Covenant, & Old Testament Laws. The End of the saccrificial age.

Jesus IS the Temple.

To say that another temple will be rebuilt, with re-instituted animal sacrifices, would trample on the preciuos, Holy blood of Jesus. Not only that, but also says that his crucifixion & bloodshed were insufficient in atonement for our sins. (I thought he said on the Cross, "It is finished")

The whole "Temple / 1000 Year, Semi-Golden Earthly Reign" theology comes from misinterpreting scripture, & not reading in context.

However, I'll point out that not too long ago, I ALSO thought the dispensational model of eschatology was correct. It's what I was taught as a kid. But for some reason, even then I never understood why there would be animal sacrifices again. It didn't make sense.

On one hand, they said, Animal sacrifice was necessary for atonement until Jesus gave his life for us, ending all sacrifices.
But on the other hand it was, ..Then,the Rebuilt temple, with animal sacrifices for 1000 years.....

HUH??? Something doesn't jive.
If JESUS himself said, "It is Finished", then I've gotta believe IT'S FINISHED. ;)

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 03:08 PM
No. Why would Paul call a temple "the temple of God" that was not truly the temple of God?

Why did Paul call a temple "the temple of God" that was in fact the abode of the antichrist? What ever the reason, on thing for sure it will be destroyed.

Darren
Feb 16th 2008, 03:25 PM
as david taylor and others have posted, the belief, that a third rendition of solomon's temple is needed to fulfill the scriptures that preview the return of christ, is wanting. it is a new form of temple worship.

it seems that for all it's good, the left behind series has had an adverse affect on many's eschatological theology.

let us revisit one of the verses that has been falsely incriminated as supporting this mistaken ideology:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

since, in accordance with temple restorationists' beliefs, these verses "prove" that the temple must be rebuilt a third time. if this is so, explain what falls away and how does it relate to a rebuilt temple?

because if i understand this theory correctly, the antichrist or the son of perdition is being pictured here and he forces himself into this freshly rebuilt temple of god. and once there, he causes an end to the oblation or animal sacrifice and pronounces himself god as he sits on the throne of god?

so again, what falls away?

the church falls away from the truth.

satan desiring the worship that the church has bestowed upon christ for centuries, attempts to fool the fallen church into believing he is the true christ and he has returned. (fooling even the elect, if possible)


2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

if you would look up the word temple in that handy dandy strong's, you will see in plain english that temple can and does mean "metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ"

so it becomes very clear, that solomon's temple is not what is being referred to in this passage.

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 03:53 PM
as david taylor and others have posted, the belief, that a third rendition of solomon's temple is needed to fulfill the scriptures that preview the return of christ, is wanting. it is a new form of temple worship.

it seems that for all it's good, the left behind series has had an adverse affect on many's eschatological theology.

let us revisit one of the verses that has been falsely incriminated as supporting this mistaken ideology:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

since, in accordance with temple restorationists' beliefs, these verses "prove" that the temple must be rebuilt a third time. if this is so, explain what falls away and how does it relate to a rebuilt temple?

because if i understand this theory correctly, the antichrist or the son of perdition is being pictured here and he forces himself into this freshly rebuilt temple of god. and once there, he causes an end to the oblation or animal sacrifice and pronounces himself god as he sits on the throne of god?

so again, what falls away?

the church falls away from the truth.

satan desiring the worship that the church has bestowed upon christ for centuries, attempts to fool the fallen church into believing he is the true christ and he has returned. (fooling even the elect, if possible)


2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

if you would look up the word temple in that handy dandy strong's, you will see in plain english that temple can and does mean "metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ"

so it becomes very clear, that solomon's temple is not what is being referred to in this passage.

If what Daniel prophesied is what Christ spoke of concerning the abomination then would that not also be the same for Paul?

Dan 11:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

It is the abomination that builds his palace in the holy mountain.

Darren
Feb 16th 2008, 04:02 PM
If what Daniel prophesied is what Christ spoke of concerning the abomination then would that not also be the same for Paul?

Dan 11:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

It is the abomination that builds his palace in the holy mountain.

so in your deductions, the above "he" is the anti-christ?

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 04:08 PM
so in your deductions, the above "he" is the anti-christ?

Well if it is not the antichrist then who else can it be according to what is written about him?

Dan 11:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

He shall come to his end.

Darren
Feb 16th 2008, 04:09 PM
firstfruits,

i do want you to know that i do believe the word of god is the inerrant word and i do believe that the end of days are a future event.

i am in no way preterist.

just clarifying so you do not hit with when's and why's.

i just believe scripture shows in this instance the temple is the church.

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 04:16 PM
firstfruits,

i do want you to know that i do believe the word of god is the inerrant word and i do believe that the end of days are a future event.

i am in no way preterist.

just clarifying so you do not hit with when's and why's.

i just believe scripture shows in this instance the temple is the church.

How would you explain what is the kingdom of the beast?

Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 17:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Rev 17:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 04:20 PM
If what Daniel prophesied is what Christ spoke of concerning the abomination then would that not also be the same for Paul?

Dan 11:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

It is the abomination that builds his palace in the holy mountain.

You can't say EVERYTHING is to be taken in a "literal" sense all the time.
That's why context is important.

It's also necessary to understand the linguistic principles of the Old Testament, & to read entire passages, rather than just verses of scripture.

So many events & words in the New Testament are in direct allignment with the Old testament.

You have to remember that there are "types" & "shadows" in the Old Testament, that point to a greater, future final fulfillment in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Anti-Type for all the previous examples throughout the bible.

The old "Temple" was a "Type" or a preview of the ETERNAL Temple, not built by human hands; that being Jesus himself.

This is why exegetical eschatology becomes important.
Although, the "end times" aren't foundational Christian Doctrine, and we can openly debate the subject without having to divide over it, we must be careful that our interpretations don't spawn unbiblical theories. (Like needing a Third Temple for animal sacrifices.... what would be the need for them?)

And I'm curious as to WHY so many people WANT the "Future Antichrist / mark of the Beast / Tribulation / 1000 year reign/ Rebuilt Temple" scenario to be true??
Everyone is scared that they'll have to go through some part of the horrible event, & they're all watching the news, playing "pin the tail on the Antichrist".

:confused

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 04:46 PM
You can't say EVERYTHING is to be taken in a "literal" sense all the time.
That's why context is important.

It's also necessary to understand the linguistic principles of the Old Testament, & to read entire passages, rather than just verses of scripture.

So many events & words in the New Testament are in direct allignment with the Old testament.

You have to remember that there are "types" & "shadows" in the Old Testament, that point to a greater, future final fulfillment in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Anti-Type for all the previous examples throughout the bible.

The old "Temple" was a "Type" or a preview of the ETERNAL Temple, not built by human hands; that being Jesus himself.

This is why exegetical eschatology becomes important.
Although, the "end times" aren't foundational Christian Doctrine, and we can openly debate the subject without having to divide over it, we must be careful that our interpretations don't spawn unbiblical theories. (Like needing a Third Temple for animal sacrifices.... what would be the need for them?)

And I'm curious as to WHY so many people WANT the "Future Antichrist / mark of the Beast / Tribulation / 1000 year reign/ Rebuilt Temple" scenario to be true??
Everyone is scared that they'll have to go through some part of the horrible event, & they're all watching the news, playing "pin the tail on the Antichrist".

:confused

There was nothing hidden in what is written, building a tabernacle/palace to run his kingdom is not hard to understand. believeng that he shall dwell in the holy place/holy mountain/Jerusalem is not hard to understand. For his kingdom to be destroyed when Jesus returns is also not hard to understand.

Jesus said that there will be great tribulation, do you believe him?
Jesus revealet to John that there will be a 1000 year reign, do you believe him?
Jesus revealed to John that the beast will cause all to receive a mark in order to buy or sell, do you believe him?

If Jesus did not mean what he said why did he say it should not be changed?

Rev 1:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 22:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Who do we believe?

ShirleyFord
Feb 16th 2008, 06:36 PM
There was nothing hidden in what is written, building a tabernacle/palace to run his kingdom is not hard to understand. believeng that he shall dwell in the holy place/holy mountain/Jerusalem is not hard to understand. For his kingdom to be destroyed when Jesus returns is also not hard to understand.

According to 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


I would think that would include all kingdoms of this world, and all kings and queens of those kingdoms and all palaces, even the White House and Buckingham Palace, plus all that belong to the devil and are not in Christ will be destroyed when Christ returns; plus all cities and nations including Washington, D. C., London, England, New York City, Jerusalem, the nation of Israel and the United States of America, etc, plus all temple buildings and church buildings and synagogues and all buildings of worship.


But nowhere in the OT or the NT that I have found is there a prophecy of a third stone temple of God that will be built in Jerusalem and the Jews offering animal sacrifices for 3 1/2 years of a 7 yr. kingdom reign of antichrist just before the Second Coming of Christ. Nor is there anything written or prophecied that some man called "the antichrist" goes into the holy of holies and sits on his throne above the mercy seat. Nor that some man called "the antichrist" will be "the abomination" only after he goes into the holy of holies of a rebuilt temple.

Nor is there anything written or prophecied in the OT or the NT that I have found that God uses antichrist to punish the Jews for 3 1/2 years before the Second Coming of Christ for rejecting Jesus when He came the first time, and punishing them so severely until he kills 2/3 of them until the 1/3 that is left alive will finally give up and confess that Jesus was the Promised Messiah after all.

Nor that Jesus will build those Jews left alive a 4th stone temple when He returns so they can resume offering animal sacrifices for 1000 years.


Shirley

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 06:40 PM
There was nothing hidden in what is written, building a tabernacle/palace to run his kingdom is not hard to understand. believeng that he shall dwell in the holy place/holy mountain/Jerusalem is not hard to understand. For his kingdom to be destroyed when Jesus returns is also not hard to understand.

Jesus said that there will be great tribulation, do you believe him?
Jesus revealet to John that there will be a 1000 year reign, do you believe him?
Jesus revealed to John that the beast will cause all to receive a mark in order to buy or sell, do you believe him?

If Jesus did not mean what he said why did he say it should not be changed?

Rev 1:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 22:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Who do we believe?

Ok, questions & comments........

God said to John, These things must SHORTLY come to pass. Do you believe him?

John Nelson Darby added the Dispensational Rapture theory in the 1800's. God said, Rev 22:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Do you believe him?

God said there would be Tribulation.(for the Jews in the first century) and there was. I believe him.

The 1000 year reign is not a literal 1000 years, ON EARTH, with animal sacrifices in a new rebuilt temple.
The number 1000 is used with special meaning, referring to an unspecified amount, whether it be time, or otherwise.
The reign is a "Heavenly reign", which began at Christ's Ascension.
There's an unspecified amount of time, which is why The Day of the LORD (the LAST DAY) will come like a theif in the night.
I believe him.

The "mark of the beast" is a whole topic on its own.
Think about God's "mark". We're all "marked" as Chosen people by the blood of Christ. It's not a "literal" physical mark, but a metaphorical one, based on relationship with God.

Satan, has no creative power, & can only mimic, imitate, or parody the things of God.
The "mark of the Beast" having to do with "the right hand" & "the forehead" have special meanings too.
The right hand is metaphoric for "what you do".
The forehead is metaphoric for "What you think, how you believe, who you follow".
The Beast demanding worship of his image, & having "the mark, his name, or the number of his name in order to buy or sell."

Jesus spoke of "Caesar's tribute money", - with Caesar's Name & Image on the coins.
At the Crucifixion, the priests proclaimed, "We have no king but Caesar".
Choosing to follow, & Worship Caesar, as HE DEMANDED.

"Nero Caesar", in the Greek language, had a numerical value of Six Hundred Sixty Six, according tho their custom of gematria.

I don't doubt what GOD said at all!
I don't doubt the prophets at all!

They were correct.
;)

I believe it!

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 08:06 PM
According to 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


I would think that would include all kingdoms of this world, and all kings and queens of those kingdoms and all palaces, even the White House and Buckingham Palace, plus all that belong to the devil and are not in Christ will be destroyed when Christ returns; plus all cities and nations including Washington, D. C., London, England, New York City, Jerusalem, the nation of Israel and the United States of America, etc, plus all temple buildings and church buildings and synagogues and all buildings of worship.


But nowhere in the OT or the NT that I have found is there a prophecy of a third stone temple of God that will be built in Jerusalem and the Jews offering animal sacrifices for 3 1/2 years of a 7 yr. kingdom reign of antichrist just before the Second Coming of Christ. Nor is there anything written or prophecied that some man called "the antichrist" goes into the holy of holies and sits on his throne above the mercy seat. Nor that some man called "the antichrist" will be "the abomination" only after he goes into the holy of holies of a rebuilt temple.

Nor is there anything written or prophecied in the OT or the NT that I have found that God uses antichrist to punish the Jews for 3 1/2 years before the Second Coming of Christ for rejecting Jesus when He came the first time, and punishing them so severely until he kills 2/3 of them until the 1/3 that is left alive will finally give up and confess that Jesus was the Promised Messiah after all.

Nor that Jesus will build those Jews left alive a 4th stone temple when He returns so they can resume offering animal sacrifices for 1000 years.


Shirley

Who may ask do you believe to be the abomination that shall stand in the holy place?

ShirleyFord
Feb 16th 2008, 09:50 PM
Well if it is not the antichrist then who else can it be according to what is written about him?

Dan 11:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

He shall come to his end.

What about King Herod? He was king of Judaea, the southern half of Israel, where he reigned from Jerusalem:

Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.


King Herod came to an end when he died and there was none to help him:


Mt 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

Mt 2:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:


Just because someone with authority over Jerusalem and had a palace in Jerusalem doesn't make them the antichrist. Nowhere do we find the Grecian king of Daniel 8 or 11 or the Roman King Herod above (under the Roman emperor, Caesar) setting their thrones up in the holy of holies of a rebuilt third temple. Nor is either one of them called "the antichrist" or that their reign would be 7 yrs. over Jerusalem just before the Second Coming of Christ.



If you want to look for someone with authority with a palace in Jerusalem, you might want to also look at the high priest:


Mt 26:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

Mt 26:58 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=58) But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

Mk 14:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.

Jn 18:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 17th 2008, 11:34 AM
What about King Herod? He was king of Judaea, the southern half of Israel, where he reigned from Jerusalem:

Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.


King Herod came to an end when he died and there was none to help him:


Mt 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

Mt 2:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:


Just because someone with authority over Jerusalem and had a palace in Jerusalem doesn't make them the antichrist. Nowhere do we find the Grecian king of Daniel 8 or 11 or the Roman King Herod above (under the Roman emperor, Caesar) setting their thrones up in the holy of holies of a rebuilt third temple. Nor is either one of them called "the antichrist" or that their reign would be 7 yrs. over Jerusalem just before the Second Coming of Christ.



If you want to look for someone with authority with a palace in Jerusalem, you might want to also look at the high priest:


Mt 26:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

Mt 26:58 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=58) But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

Mk 14:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.

Jn 18:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest.


Shirley

I understand what you are saying, however with the fact that Jesus has not yet returned and that the beast and the false prophet must be here alive, when Jesus returns those that you have mentioned are no longer here/alive.

They were not destroyed by Jesus, as will the beast and the false prophet.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Look around you, the earth stll stands.

Firstfruits
Feb 17th 2008, 12:05 PM
With regards to these scriptures was Jesus talking about more that just the temple, with understanding that Jerusalem shall be destroyed when he returns?

Mk 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Lk 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

ShirleyFord
Feb 17th 2008, 01:07 PM
With regards to these scriptures was Jesus talking about more that just the temple, with understanding that Jerusalem shall be destroyed when he returns?

Mk 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Read Mark 13:1 and you will know what "these great buildings" were.

1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

The temple had many buildings and courtyards in the temple complex. It consisted of more than the temple building where only the priests were allowed to go and perform their daily priestly duties. Jesus nor His disciples nor the rest of the people of Israel were allowed into that building ever.

The disciples were looking at the temple and its buildings that Jesus had just come out of. And one of them said to Jesus, "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

He was speaking about the second stone temple and its buildings that were standing there at that time but according to historical records, were destroyed in 70 AD, so destroyed in fact, until there was not one stone left upon the other one, just as Jesus prophecied.


Lk 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Read Luke 21:5 and you will learn what Jesus was referring to:

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said.

Jesus responded in v. 6 to what His disciples were looking at and speaking about.

The temple had more than one building:

Mt 24:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 17th 2008, 01:32 PM
Read Mark 13:1 and you will know what "these great buildings" were.

1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

The temple had many buildings and courtyards in the temple complex. It consisted of more than the temple building where only the priests were allowed to go and perform their daily priestly duties. Jesus nor His disciples nor the rest of the people of Israel were allowed into that building ever.

The disciples were looking at the temple and its buildings that Jesus had just come out of. And one of them said to Jesus, "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

He was speaking about the second stone temple and its buildings that were standing there at that time but according to historical records, were destroyed in 70 AD, so destroyed in fact, until there was not one stone left upon the other one, just as Jesus prophecied.



Read Luke 21:5 and you will learn what Jesus was referring to:

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said.

Jesus responded in v. 6 to what His disciples were looking at and speaking about.

The temple had more than one building:

Mt 24:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Shirley

Thanks Shirley,

Knowing that when Jesus returns the beast and the false prophet are stll here and whatever their dwelling that in which they shall be worshiped, it shall be destroyed at that time. In the first century if those in Judea were warned to flee because of tribulation that was to come upon the land, if the great tribulation has not yet come ie Judea and Jerusalem still stand, then that then would mean more than just the temple being destroyed as the people do not dwell in the temple yet they were told to flee Judea.

ShirleyFord
Feb 17th 2008, 03:44 PM
Thanks Shirley,

Knowing that when Jesus returns the beast and the false prophet are stll here and whatever their dwelling that in which they shall be worshiped, it shall be destroyed at that time.

Revelation Chapters 13, 14, 16, 19 and 20 all speak of the worship of the beast and his image. But in none of these Scriptures do we find mentioned a temple or dwelling place that the beast and his image had to be inside of in order to be worshipped.

We find Jesus destroying the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire when He returns:

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

No mention though of a third rebuilt temple or Jerusalem. The entire world will be destroyed by fire then, not just Jerusalem, as was the case in 70 AD.



In the first century if those in Judea were warned to flee because of tribulation that was to come upon the land, if the great tribulation has not yet come ie Judea and Jerusalem still stand, then that then would mean more than just the temple being destroyed as the people do not dwell in the temple yet they were told to flee Judea.

Jerusalem was in Judaea, the southern kingdom of the nation of Israel. Jesus makes it very clear in His prophecies that only a portion of one nation would be involved when He warned those of Jerusalem, "20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (Luke 21)


But prophecies concerning the return of Jesus speaks of the nations:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations


Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 17th 2008, 03:52 PM
Revelation Chapters 13, 14, 16, 19 and 20 all speak of the worship of the beast and his image. But in none of these Scriptures do we find mentioned a temple or dwelling place that the beast and his image had to be inside of in order to be worshipped.

We find Jesus destroying the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire when He returns:

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

No mention though of a third rebuilt temple or Jerusalem. The entire world will be destroyed by fire then, not just Jerusalem, as was the case in 70 AD.




Jerusalem was in Judaea, the southern kingdom of the nation of Israel. Jesus makes it very clear in His prophecies that only a portion of one nation would be involved when He warned those of Jerusalem, "20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (Luke 21)


But prophecies concerning the return of Jesus speaks of the nations:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations


Shirley

The beast /antichrist will have a kingdom from where he reigns;

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

He therefore must have a dwelling place in that kingdom, do you agree?

ShirleyFord
Feb 19th 2008, 01:37 PM
The beast /antichrist will have a kingdom from where he reigns;

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

He therefore must have a dwelling place in that kingdom, do you agree?

There are only 2 kingdoms:

1. The kingdom of God which is full of light
2. The kingdom of the devil which is full of darkness

The beastly antichrist kingdom of the dragon, the devil, has always been full of darkness. The seat of the devil is his authority in his kingdom over his subjects in his kingdom; not a physical throne of an earthly king . How can the devil, a spirit being, physically sit down on an earthly physical throne?


Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 19th 2008, 02:23 PM
There are only 2 kingdoms:

1. The kingdom of God which is full of light
2. The kingdom of the devil which is full of darkness

The beastly antichrist kingdom of the dragon, the devil, has always been full of darkness. The seat of the devil is his authority in his kingdom over his subjects in his kingdom; not a physical throne of an earthly king . How can the devil, a spirit being, physically sit down on an earthly physical throne?


Shirley

According to what is written the dragon is not the beast, but gives the beast his power.

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: And they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The dragon would not give himself a mouth speaking blasphemies against God but the beast was give a mouth to do so.

Dan 7:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 7:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 11:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Rev 13:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The fourth kingdom shall surely stand until Christ returns.

Dan 2:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

The kingdom of the beast was not darkened until the fifth angel pour out his vial upon his kingdom.

Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 9:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he opened the bottomless pit; And there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; And the sun And the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

DIZZY
Feb 20th 2008, 11:23 PM
Hi guys,
I haven't spoken here for awhile so g'day to everyone and I pray you are all well.

I was just thinking about this subject this morning whilst I was working and I believe that there is a temple built in Jerusalem before the tribulation period or even during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.

Revelation 11
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

John wrote the book of Revelation, the Apostle John came to Patmos, exiled by the Roman Emperor Titus Flavius Domitianus in 95 AC. In Patmos, the Apostle John conveyed the inhabitants to Christianity and wrote the Book of Revelation, the Apocalypse.

When John is told to measure the temple he probably thought how could he measure the temple for it had been destroyed in 70AD, but this temple John is told to measure is a future temple, one that will be built before or during the tribulation period and it is used by Satan for the purpose of setting up the son of perdition on the seat as God.

Matthew 24:15-22
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Daniel 11:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=11&verse=31&version=50&context=verse)
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=12&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Luke 21:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=21&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

These all speak of a tribulation temple, one that is to be built, a future temple not the one that was destroyed in 70AD.

Revelation 11:1-3
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Once again as we read the verses above we see John is given a rod to measure the temple. This is a future temple for John was on the island of Patmos in 95AD long after the temple at Jerusalem had been destroyedin 70AD aprrox 25 years after its destruction.

Not only that the outer court has been left to the Gentiles, God did not promise to save all the Gentiles but He did promise to save a remnant of Jews and that promise still stands to this day. This future temple the two witness stand outside it, and in the streets of Jerusalem they prophesy for 1,260 days, 3 1/2 years the last half of the 70 week of Daniel 9:27.

This temple that John is told to measure is not the last temple that is to be mentioned of in the book of Revelation, if we turn to Revelation 21 we will find an angel measures the New Jerusalem (the eternal Jerusalem) the Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven and we are told that the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Revelation 21:9-17
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Revelation 21:22
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

All those who are saved from the nations shall be on the new earth and they shall bring their glory and honour into the new Jerusalem for her gates will never be closed.

Revelation 21:24-26
24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

So as we have read Revelation eleven and Revelation 21 we see they both speek of two different temples Revelation eleven the one to come in the tribulation period and Revelation 21 there is no temple for God and the Lamb are its temple.

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 01:39 AM
Hi guys,
I haven't spoken here for awhile so g'day to everyone and I pray you are all well.

I was just thinking about this subject this morning whilst I was working and I believe that there is a temple built in Jerusalem before the tribulation period or even during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.

Revelation 11
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

John wrote the book of Revelation, the Apostle John came to Patmos, exiled by the Roman Emperor Titus Flavius Domitianus in 95 AC. In Patmos, the Apostle John conveyed the inhabitants to Christianity and wrote the Book of Revelation, the Apocalypse.

When John is told to measure the temple he probably thought how could he measure the temple for it had been destroyed in 70AD, but this temple John is told to measure is a future temple, one that will be built before or during the tribulation period and it is used by Satan for the purpose of setting up the son of perdition on the seat as God.

Matthew 24:15-22
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Daniel 11:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=11&verse=31&version=50&context=verse)
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=12&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Luke 21:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=21&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

These all speak of a tribulation temple, one that is to be built, a future temple not the one that was destroyed in 70AD.

Revelation 11:1-3
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Once again as we read the verses above we see John is given a rod to measure the temple. This is a future temple for John was on the island of Patmos in 95AD long after the temple at Jerusalem had been destroyedin 70AD aprrox 25 years after its destruction.

Not only that the outer court has been left to the Gentiles, God did not promise to save all the Gentiles but He did promise to save a remnant of Jews and that promise still stands to this day. This future temple the two witness stand outside it, and in the streets of Jerusalem they prophesy for 1,260 days, 3 1/2 years the last half of the 70 week of Daniel 9:27.

This temple that John is told to measure is not the last temple that is to be mentioned of in the book of Revelation, if we turn to Revelation 21 we will find an angel measures the New Jerusalem (the eternal Jerusalem) the Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven and we are told that the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Revelation 21:9-17
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Revelation 21:22
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

All those who are saved from the nations shall be on the new earth and they shall bring their glory and honour into the new Jerusalem for her gates will never be closed.

Revelation 21:24-26
24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

So as we have read Revelation eleven and Revelation 21 we see they both speek of two different temples Revelation eleven the one to come in the tribulation period and Revelation 21 there is no temple for God and the Lamb are its temple.


The Temple John is speaking of in Revelation is Herod's Temple. The one that was destroyed in 70 AD.
The significance of John talking about this Temple in the sense that it's "still standing" indicates Jerusalem & Herod's temple had not yet been destroyed.

We know for a fact JESUS IS the Temple.

In John: chapter 4, he tells the woman at the well (or fountain) that "An hour is coming, & HAS come, when TRUE belivers will not worship God in a temple, but in SPIRIT"

Besides,...What is the need for a "new" temple??

John also goes on to say, "I saw no temple", because JESUS is the temple & will dwell amongst his people.

If Herod's temple had already been destroyed, John would have mentioned it in Revelation. It would have been a SIGNIFICANT event for the Jews.

Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" was also a completely different event, 600 years or so PRIOR to the birth of Christ.

Jesus refers back to Daniel to indicate the intense nature of the upcomong events that his disciples would see.
(Daniel was told to seal up his visions, because the time was far off... remember? AND, it was 600 years later when it was fulfilled. If Daniel's prophecy STILL hadn't been fulfilled by NOW, Jesus would not have mentioned it, as it would have still been sealed, until the time was closer.)

There is nothing to indicate a future rebuilt temple in the scriptures.
There's also no need for a rebuilt temple, nor for temple sacrifices to be reinstituted.
In fact, "new temple sacrifices" would border on heresy, or blasphemy.
The ULTIMATE sacrifice had been given on the Cross.

In Hebrews chapter 10, we're told why animal sacrifices weren't ever sufficient, & why they'll never happen again.
*hint- they'll be unnecessary, but more importantly, UNWANTED, & UNACCEPTED by God*

Honestly, I have never heard a good reason for a "new temple" or "new sacrifices".
If anyone can explain where this idea comes from, & why it would make sense, please share.
I'm all ears.

ross3421
Feb 21st 2008, 08:23 AM
The beast /antichrist will have a kingdom from where he reigns;

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

He therefore must have a dwelling place in that kingdom, do you agree?

FF,

Yes, and another interesting point is that how long is the SON of the devil out from his dwelling place? 3.5 years Um...seems to be a parrallel again.

DIZZY
Feb 21st 2008, 10:06 AM
The Temple John is speaking of in Revelation is Herod's Temple. The one that was destroyed in 70 AD.
The significance of John talking about this Temple in the sense that it's "still standing" indicates Jerusalem & Herod's temple had not yet been destroyed.

We know for a fact JESUS IS the Temple.

[QUOTE]
In John: chapter 4, he tells the woman at the well (or fountain) that "An hour is coming, & HAS come, when TRUE belivers will not worship God in a temple, but in SPIRIT"


John 4:21-24
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Yes we know that those who worship God worships Him in spirit and truth, there is no need for a temple. The Holy Spirit dwells within us and Jesus Christ intercedes for us before the thrown of God.

Besides,...What is the need for a "new" temple??


It is not the Gentiles who build the temple it is the Jews




John also goes on to say, "I saw no temple", because JESUS is the temple & will dwell amongst his people.


This happens in Revelation 21, when the new heaven and new earth are made and the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. There is no need of a temple because God and the Lamb are its temple.




If Herod's temple had already been destroyed, John would have mentioned it in Revelation. It would have been a SIGNIFICANT event for the Jews.


John was told to write, he had no input of what was to be written other than what he was told to write. Revelation is a book on prophecy, after Revelation 4 John is told to write about things that are to come.We will find that there is a new temple coming and this temple is standing at the same time when the two witnesses are in the streets of Jerusalem prophecying.

Revelation 11:1-3
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

This has not happened so it is something that is to happen in the future. This is not the temple that was destroyed in 70AD it is a future temple, it is the temple where the abomination of desolation will stand.




Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" was also a completely different event, 600 years or so PRIOR to the birth of Christ.

Jesus refers back to Daniel to indicate the intense nature of the upcomong events that his disciples would see.
(Daniel was told to seal up his visions, because the time was far off... remember? AND, it was 600 years later when it was fulfilled. If Daniel's prophecy STILL hadn't been fulfilled by NOW, Jesus would not have mentioned it, as it would have still been sealed, until the time was closer.)


Daniels 11's prophecy was talking about when the abomination of desolation is set up in the sanctuary, this is the same temple spoken of in Revelation 11, it is not talking about the temple that was destroyed in 70AD.



There is nothing to indicate a future rebuilt temple in the scriptures.
There's also no need for a rebuilt temple, nor for temple sacrifices to be reinstituted.
In fact, "new temple sacrifices" would border on heresy, or blasphemy.
The ULTIMATE sacrifice had been given on the Cross.


The Jews with all the problems they have realize they need a Messiah so they start to sacrifice again seeking their God once again.



In Hebrews chapter 10, we're told why animal sacrifices weren't ever sufficient, & why they'll never happen again.
*hint- they'll be unnecessary, but more importantly, UNWANTED, & UNACCEPTED by God*


We know this and we understand this but there are some Jews who do not believe this and they build a new temple to sacrifice to God.



Honestly, I have never heard a good reason for a "new temple" or "new sacrifices".
If anyone can explain where this idea comes from, & why it would make sense, please share.
I'm all ears.

Revelation 11:1-3
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”


WEll to me the best reason for the new temple would be God said it would be built and His two witnesses would stand in the streets outside the temple and prophecy, this event has not happened in history so therefore it has to be future. The bible says it I believe it.

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 11:04 AM
FF,

Yes, and another interesting point is that how long is the SON of the devil out from his dwelling place? 3.5 years Um...seems to be a parrallel again.

Thanks Ross

Just another note to add to that is that he will be worshipped as God in his dwelling, I know the that the bible states he will be where he ought not to be and the only place that can be is the temple of God
It is also written that he shall build his tabernacle in the holy mountain as we know the holy mountain is Jerusalem/zion.

So even if we do not want to call his dwelling a temple even though the word temple/tabernacle is used it will be in Jerusalem.

ShirleyFord
Feb 21st 2008, 12:04 PM
John was told to write, he had no input of what was to be written other than what he was told to write. Revelation is a book on prophecy, after Revelation 4 John is told to write about things that are to come.

Jesus told John in Revelation 1 (not after Revelation 4) to write in a book and send it to the 7 Churches which were located in Asia Minor, "the things which thou has seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter".


Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;




Revelation 11:1-3
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

This has not happened so it is something that is to happen in the future. This is not the temple that was destroyed in 70AD it is a future temple, it is the temple where the abomination of desolation will stand.

But Revelation 11:1-3 doesn't say that this is a future rebuilt 3rd stone temple. Neither does this Scripture mention the abomination of desolation.




Daniels 11's prophecy was talking about when the abomination of desolation is set up in the sanctuary, this is the same temple spoken of in Revelation 11, it is not talking about the temple that was destroyed in 70AD.


Daniel 11 doesn't mention a third rebuilt stone temple nor that this king spoken of is "the abomination of desolation" nor that this king is antichrist, nor that this king goes into a rebuilt stone temple and becomes "the abomination of desolation".

The abomination of desolation is something that he and his followers place in the sanctuary:

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


This king and these events occurred before the First Coming of Christ during the time when the Grecian Empire was in power. This king appears to be the last of the many kings who ruled when the Grecian Empire was in power which began Daniel's 62 weeks of years of the 70 weeks and continued for most of that time until Nebuchadnezzar's 4th beast, the Roman Empire defeated Greece and came to power just before the birth of Christ.

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 02:56 PM
[quote=markdrums;1546545]The Temple John is speaking of in Revelation is Herod's Temple. The one that was destroyed in 70 AD.
The significance of John talking about this Temple in the sense that it's "still standing" indicates Jerusalem & Herod's temple had not yet been destroyed.

We know for a fact JESUS IS the Temple.



John 4:21-24
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Yes we know that those who worship God worships Him in spirit and truth, there is no need for a temple. The Holy Spirit dwells within us and Jesus Christ intercedes for us before the thrown of God.

It is not the Gentiles who build the temple it is the Jews




This happens in Revelation 21, when the new heaven and new earth are made and the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. There is no need of a temple because God and the Lamb are its temple.

WEll to me the best reason for the new temple would be God said it would be built and His two witnesses would stand in the streets outside the temple and prophecy, this event has not happened in history so therefore it has to be future. The bible says it I believe it.


How many times is Jesus going to come down & dwell with his people?
The way I understand it, only once. Revelation 21 explains the fact there will be NO new temple. (Just as you also showed above)
How does a 3rd, future temple, with sacrifices fit into the plan?

Also, I STILL don't see where God says a new, 3rd temple will be built.
Going back to Jesus' words, "True believers will worship in SPIRIT" (not in a temple)

The temple was only a "type" in the Old Testament which pointed to the TRUE temple that would come; Jesus.

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 04:42 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1546891]


How many times is Jesus going to come down & dwell with his people?
The way I understand it, only once. Revelation 21 explains the fact there will be NO new temple. (Just as you also showed above)
How does a 3rd, future temple, with sacrifices fit into the plan?

Also, I STILL don't see where God says a new, 3rd temple will be built.
Going back to Jesus' words, "True believers will worship in SPIRIT" (not in a temple)

The temple was only a "type" in the Old Testament which pointed to the TRUE temple that would come; Jesus.

Will the antichrist not have his own tabernacle in which he dwells from where he shall be worshipped and reign over the earth? Would that not explain this scripture?
2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We know that he is not God but it does say "as God" so his temple will not really be Gods but it will be in the holy place where it ought not to be.

ross3421
Feb 21st 2008, 06:11 PM
Thanks Ross

Just another note to add to that is that he will be worshipped as God in his dwelling, I know the that the bible states he will be where he ought not to be and the only place that can be is the temple of God
It is also written that he shall build his tabernacle in the holy mountain as we know the holy mountain is Jerusalem/zion.

So even if we do not want to call his dwelling a temple even though the word temple/tabernacle is used it will be in Jerusalem.


He will sit where God would sit, there is no other place. It will be a strong delusion.

Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Mark

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 06:26 PM
[quote=markdrums;1547255]

Will the antichrist not have his own tabernacle in which he dwells from where he shall be worshipped and reign over the earth? Would that not explain this scripture?
2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We know that he is not God but it does say "as God" so his temple will not really be Gods but it will be in the holy place where it ought not to be.

I understand your question,
Here's why I think the idea of a new temple, and the AntiChrist description doesn't fit the 21st century.

The way I understand this prophecy by John, it describes Nero Caesar.
Nero exalted himself above God, & demanded to be worshiped.
That's why he persecuted Christians, including having Paul beheaded, & setting others on fire to be used as torches at night, others to be trampled by horses & chariots in the stadiums, and fed others to the dogs & lions.
He was the epitimy of Evil.

The "Beast" represents an empire. The Dragon (Satan) gave the Beast a mouth to speak, (meaning somone to represent the Beast, & be the "image" of the empire.)

Nero committed an Abomination in the temple (just like Antiochus IV Epiphanes did several hundred years before, which was described by Daniel.) However, instead of unclean pigs being slaughtered on the altar, Nero slaughtered the pharisees.

John's description of The Beast would have completey fit Nero... all the way down to his "name" being calculated to the numeric value of Six Hundred Sixty Six.

If you didn't Think like Nero, (marked in the forehead) or didn't DO the things Nero did, & follow his ways, (Marked on the right hand) you would be put to death.


That's why I believe "The AntiChrist" / Beast isn't a reference to US in the 21st century.

ross3421
Feb 21st 2008, 06:31 PM
[quote=markdrums;1547255]

Will the antichrist not have his own tabernacle in which he dwells from where he shall be worshipped and reign over the earth? Would that not explain this scripture?
2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We know that he is not God but it does say "as God" so his temple will not really be Gods but it will be in the holy place where it ought not to be.

Yes he does FF,

The confusion is that folks look at Rev 21 which states that "there is no temple therein" to justify that there will be no new temple. One needs to understand that this is speaking of the city itself whereby the "church" will reside. There will be a temple even in the kingdom of God but will be located outside north of the city midst the land where the tribes of Israel reside.

Look at the following at my point...... we know that the AC will rom a temple but we have the same reference to a temple not located within the city whereby the "gentiles" (church) will reside.

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Re 11:2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


So in both kingdoms we a city without a temple but a reference to a place north of the city whereby is a seat. The city will contain the gentiles and the land outside Israel.

Mark

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 07:17 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1547356]

Yes he does FF,

The confusion is that folks look at Rev 21 which states that "there is no temple therein" to justify that there will be no new temple. One needs to understand that this is speaking of the city itself whereby the "church" will reside. There will be a temple even in the kingdom of God but will be located outside north of the city midst the land where the tribes of Israel reside.

Look at the following at my point...... we know that the AC will rom a temple but we have the same reference to a temple not located within the city whereby the "gentiles" (church) will reside.

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Re 11:2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


So in both kingdoms we a city without a temple but a reference to a place north of the city whereby is a seat. The city will contain the gentiles and the land outside Israel.

Mark

Mark, was this for me or markdrums?

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 07:18 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1547356]

Yes he does FF,

The confusion is that folks look at Rev 21 which states that "there is no temple therein" to justify that there will be no new temple. One needs to understand that this is speaking of the city itself whereby the "church" will reside. There will be a temple even in the kingdom of God but will be located outside north of the city midst the land where the tribes of Israel reside.

Look at the following at my point...... we know that the AC will rom a temple but we have the same reference to a temple not located within the city whereby the "gentiles" (church) will reside.

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Re 11:2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


So in both kingdoms we a city without a temple but a reference to a place north of the city whereby is a seat. The city will contain the gentiles and the land outside Israel.

Mark

Remeber though, that Daniel's vision is not the same event as in Revelation.

Why also would there be a need for a temple?
The temple was only a temporary precursor, a "type" which represented Jesus.
Jesus IS the temple.

In the Old Testament The Holy Spirit would enter into "the temple" (the Shekinah Glory Cloud) to dwell with the High Priests.
After the day of Pentacost, the Spirit began to dwell with us and IN US rather than a temple.

So to, wiill be the case when we're all with him.....

Rev 21:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 07:31 PM
[quote=ross3421;1547502]

Remeber though, that Daniel's vision is not the same event as in Revelation.

Why also would there be a need for a temple?
The temple was only a temporary precursor, a "type" which represented Jesus.
Jesus IS the temple.

In the Old Testament The Holy Spirit would enter into "the temple" (the Shekinah Glory Cloud) to dwell with the High Priests.
After the day of Pentacost, the Spirit began to dwell with us and IN US rather than a temple.

So to, wiill be the case when we're all with him.....

Rev 21:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Do you believe that the seat of the kingdom of the beast will be in Jerusalem, the holy mountain of God, where he ought not to be, and that his kingdom shall be destroyed when Jesus returns? If his seat and his kingdom is destroyed, what happens to Jerusalem in which the beast dwells?

ross3421
Feb 21st 2008, 09:17 PM
[quote=markdrums;1547549]

Do you believe that the seat of the kingdom of the beast will be in Jerusalem, the holy mountain of God, where he ought not to be, and that his kingdom shall be destroyed when Jesus returns? If his seat and his kingdom is destroyed, what happens to Jerusalem in which the beast dwells?

all destroyed replaced by a new jerusalem..

ross3421
Feb 21st 2008, 10:10 PM
same [/I]event as in Revelation.


how do you mean.......





(http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#3)Rev 21:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
[/QUOTE] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#3)

what are you saying the tabernacle represents.....

Mark

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 10:54 PM
how do you mean.......





what are you saying the tabernacle represents.....

Mark[/quote]

Daniels's prophecy concerning "The Abomination" was about Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The prophecy was given about 600 BC or so. But was sealed because the time was far off.

Antiochus committed the "Abomination" spoken of by daniel around 167 BC. by slaughtering pigs on the altar & persecuting the Jews. (Just as NERO did shortly after Jesus refrenced the "Abomination".. as a reminder, & warning that the same thing would occur in Herod's Temple.

The "Tabernacle" in Rev 21:3 IS JESUS.
Only someONE could "dwell with men".. not someTHING.
"HE (The Tabernacle) shall dwell with them & be their God."


Tabernacle isn't a refrence to a "new temple" It's about Jesus.
:)

honcho
Feb 21st 2008, 11:30 PM
firstfruits
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Reply With Quote
------------------
When the Antichrist is being worshiped as though he is God then would his building not be the temple of God from where he rules his kingdom?

There are two different structures above.

Dan 11:45 NIV
He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain

This is a temporary structure that serves as his headquarters.

2 Thess 2:4
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called god or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

This is the third temple of white limestone constructed by the Jews in the first half of the 7 year covenant.

ShirleyFord
Feb 22nd 2008, 12:58 AM
2 Thess 2:4
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called god or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

This is the third temple of white limestone constructed by the Jews in the first half of the 7 year covenant.

Where is the Scripture that you have found that prophecies the Jews constructing the third temple of white limestone?

I've dilegently searched the Scriptures for over 30 years searching from Genesis to Revelation and have not be able to find the Jews or anyone building a third stone temple in Jerusalem 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ or at any other time.


Shirley

jam2188
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:18 AM
Zechariah 6:12 clearly states that the messiah will re-build the temple.

ross3421
Feb 22nd 2008, 05:38 AM
The "Tabernacle" in Rev 21:3 IS JESUS.
Only someONE could "dwell with men".. not someTHING.
"HE (The Tabernacle) shall dwell with them & be their God."


Tabernacle isn't a refrence to a "new temple" It's about Jesus.
:)

The Greek word used here is "Skene" meaning...tent, tabernacle, or movable temple of God patterned after the temple at Jerusalem.

In other words the tabernacle is NOT Jesus.

In verse two we see John's description on what is descending, in verse three it is then a voice from heaven giving a description. Both are of the same sight, the city.

Re 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Re 21:3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The tabernacle of God is new Jerusalem.

Isa 33:20Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.


Mark

DIZZY
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:26 AM
John was told by an angel to measure the temple of God and the altar. To me that says there is a temple standing erect at the time that this prophecy is to come to reality, not only that the outer court of this temple is to be left to the Gentiles who will tread under foot the holy city being Jerusalem, for fourty two months, 1260 days, 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 11:1-3
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

It is not the temple that is tread under foot it is the holy city and whilst this city is under siege by the Gentiles God has removed His beloved and taken her out into the wilderness, where He will has provide a place for her and He will protect her.

Revelation 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation 12:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Firstfruits
Feb 22nd 2008, 09:58 AM
[quote=Firstfruits;1547568]

all destroyed replaced by a new jerusalem..

So whatever the building that the beast sits as God and is worshipped, will be destroyed, so the building is either built by him or is an existing building in Jerusalem, which shall be destroyed, wether or not we call it a temple, a tabernacle or whatever?

Do you agree?

ShirleyFord
Feb 22nd 2008, 11:59 AM
Zechariah 6:12 clearly states that the messiah will re-build the temple.

Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.


The Temple of God that Jesus is building

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Shirley

markdrums
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:10 PM
Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.


The Temple of God that Jesus is building

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Shirley

Great examples Shirley!
Also to add to them....

Mark 14:58 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar014.html#58) We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.



& John 2:13-22
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables. 16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!" 17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Then His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up."
18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?"
19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

ShirleyFord
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:47 PM
Great examples Shirley!
Also to add to them....

Mark 14:58 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar014.html#58) We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.



& John 2:13-22
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables. 16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!" 17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Then His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up."
18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?"
19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

Thanks for adding these Scriptures Mark!

As you have shown, Jesus Himself spoke of the temple that He would build that fulfilled Zechariah 6:12-13

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Jesus not only spoke of His own flesh body as the temple of God that He would raise up in three days at His resurrection. Paul makes it clear that we who are in Christ are also the body of Christ, the temple of God:

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.



Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:55 PM
Great examples Shirley!
Also to add to them....

Mark 14:58 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar014.html#58) We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.



& John 2:13-22
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables. 16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!" 17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Then His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up."
18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?"
19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

According to the following where is it that he that is spoken of by Daniel, shall be, that he ought not to be?

Mk 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Would you not agree that he must have a building in which he dwells, and is worshipped?

ShirleyFord
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:23 PM
Daniel, Jesus nor Paul mentioned that a third stone temple must be built so antichrist can have a place for people to go to worship him.

Firstfruits
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:29 PM
Daniel, Jesus nor Paul mentioned that a third stone temple must be built so antichrist can have a place for people to go to worship him.

I did not mention anything about a temple in my question, other than what the scripture states.

According to the following where is it that he that is spoken of by Daniel, shall be, that he ought not to be?

Mk 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Would you not agree that he must have a building in which he dwells, and is worshipped?

Where is it that he will be that he ought not to be?

ShirleyFord
Feb 22nd 2008, 05:11 PM
I did not mention anything about a temple in my question, other than what the scripture states.

According to the following where is it that he that is spoken of by Daniel, shall be, that he ought not to be?

Mk 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Daniel doesn't mention a third stone rebuilt temple.
Jesus doesn't mention a third stone rebuilt temple.


2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4)

Would you not agree that he must have a building in which he dwells, and is worshipped?
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4)

No, not a third rebuilt temple. Paul doesn't mention that antichrist must have a third rebuilt temple to dwell in and to be worshipped in.


Where is it that he will be that he ought not to be?

Jesus said "standing where it ought not," Where do you see "he"?

Jesus tells us more clearly what the he is in Luke's account:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The Roman military, "armies", is the "it" Jesus was speaking about.


These are the armies that Daniel prophecies in Daniel 9:26b that would destroy the temple and the city:

"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."


And evidently they did just as Daniel and Jesus prophecied.

ross3421
Feb 22nd 2008, 06:24 PM
[quote=ross3421;1547693]

So whatever the building that the beast sits as God and is worshipped, will be destroyed, so the building is either built by him or is an existing building in Jerusalem, which shall be destroyed, wether or not we call it a temple, a tabernacle or whatever?

Do you agree?

Yes. The city is Jerusalem but called "Babylon".

I would like to add that the "image of the Beast" which those upon the earth make is this temple whereby he will sit and will contain the glory of his father. This is the fire coming down from heaven which he will direct into the house whereby likened unto the true God will speak.


Mark

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:41 AM
Daniel doesn't mention a third stone rebuilt temple.
Jesus doesn't mention a third stone rebuilt temple.



No, not a third rebuilt temple. Paul doesn't mention that antichrist must have a third rebuilt temple to dwell in and to be worshipped in.



Jesus said "standing where it ought not," Where do you see "he"?

Jesus tells us more clearly what the he is in Luke's account:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The Roman military, "armies", is the "it" Jesus was speaking about.


These are the armies that Daniel prophecies in Daniel 9:26b that would destroy the temple and the city:

"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."


And evidently they did just as Daniel and Jesus prophecied.

The question is not in what kind of building, but where shall it be that he/it ought not to stand.
According to the following where is it that he that is spoken of by Daniel, shall be, that it ought not to be?

ShirleyFord
Feb 23rd 2008, 02:42 PM
The question is not in what kind of building, but where shall it be that he/it ought not to stand.
According to the following where is it that he that is spoken of by Daniel, shall be, that it ought not to be?

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Notice in Mark's account Jesus refers to "the abomination of desolation" as "it" and not "he". In Matthew's account Jesus doesn't use "he" or "it" to refer to "the abominiation of desolation".

In the same account of Luke, Jesus doesn't mention "the abomination of desolation":

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


So it appears to me that the abomination of desolation that Jesus is referring to are "armies".

And the place where "it ought not to be" is the city of Jerusalem.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 03:11 PM
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Notice in Mark's account Jesus refers to "the abomination of desolation" as "it" and not "he". In Matthew's account Jesus doesn't use "he" or "it" to refer to "the abominiation of desolation".

In the same account of Luke, Jesus doesn't mention "the abomination of desolation":

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


So it appears to me that the abomination of desolation that Jesus is referring to are "armies".

And the place where "it ought not to be" is the city of Jerusalem.


Shirley

Thank you Shirley,

Therefore the beast shall be worshiped as God in the holy place Jerusalem.
However it the abomination are the armies then how would yoy explain the following?

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Notice there are three separate groups/people mentioned.

And what about this;
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The bible calls the false prophet "him" making him an individual, and from what is written would also make the beast an indivdual.

honcho
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:04 PM
Notice in Mark's account Jesus refers to "the abomination of desolation" as "it" and not "he". Correct, the abomination of desolation is not a "he," it is the "image" that is set up in the temple by the false prophet after the Tribulation begins (Rev. 13:14b).

Before the Tribulation in the first half of the 70th week the Antichrist will proclaim himself as God in the temple. The abomination in Matthew and the Antichrist's revealing are two different incidents. 2 Thess 2:4

markdrums
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:19 PM
Correct, the abomination of desolation is not a "he," it is the "image" that is set up in the temple by the false prophet after the Tribulation begins (Rev. 13:14b).

Before the Tribulation in the first half of the 70th week the Antichrist will proclaim himself as God in the temple. The abomination in Matthew and the Antichrist's revealing are two different incidents. 2 Thess 2:4

I think people get confused as to what "Abomination" means.
Here's a definition from the dictionary.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html) -
a·bom·i·na·tion -
1.anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
2.intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.
3.a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.: Spitting in public is an abomination.
4. Abhorrence; disgust.
5. A cause of abhorrence or disgust.


In the context given in scripture, the "Abomination" is an act, or event.
Such was the case when both Antiochus IV Epiphanes, AND Nero Caesar covered the altars of both temples (several hundred years apart... on 2 separate occasions) with unclean blood.
The first time with the blood of unclean pigs.
The second time, with the blood of the Pharisees.
THOSE were abominations.
That, along with the Abominal act of erecting statues of false gods in the temples, left the temple desolate, (or empty) of the Spirit of God.

Once those acts were committed, the temply was no longer a Holy Place, & God would never again enter in.

Daniel prophecied of Antiochus, and John prophecied of Nero.

markdrums
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:30 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1548205]

Yes. The city is Jerusalem but called "Babylon".

I would like to add that the "image of the Beast" which those upon the earth make is this temple whereby he will sit and will contain the glory of his father. This is the fire coming down from heaven which he will direct into the house whereby likened unto the true God will speak.


Mark

The Beast was the Roman Empire
The "Image" of the Beast was someone / who represented the Beast / Roman Empire. (Nero)
Nero's IMAGE was on the money, which was spoken of in the Olivet Discourse.
Nero's NAME was on the money as well.
Nero was the "MOUTH" of the Beast, or the "voice" for the Roman Empire.
You could not buy or sell unless you used Nero's money.

The "mark" of the Beast is metaphoric in 2 ways.
1- The right hand. This is "what you do / how you act". DO you act in accordance to GOD? Or to Nero?
2- The forehead. This is "what you think & believe".

Just as GOD'S people are marked (symbolicly) by what they believe, & how they live, what they do... etc.

When the Beast "seemed to have suffered a deadly wound".... The Roman Empire nearly collapsed when Nero committed suicide.
However, The Empire seemed to (metaphoricaly) come back to life when Titus took power. They seemed unstoppable, & "who dare make war with the Beast?" (Roman Empire)

ShirleyFord
Feb 23rd 2008, 09:19 PM
Correct, the abomination of desolation is not a "he," it is the "image" that is set up in the temple by the false prophet after the Tribulation begins (Rev. 13:14b).

But Jesus doesn't say in Matthew 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21 that the abomination of desolation is the "image" of the beast. Nor that the false prophet sets it up in a rebuilt 3rd temple after the Tribulation begins.

We find the image of the first beast in Revelation 13. But we don't find a rebuilt 3rd temple in Revelation 13 or the second beast/false prophet putting the image of the first beast into a rebuilt third temple.

Grafted_In
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:41 PM
The Beast was the Roman Empire
The "Image" of the Beast was someone / who represented the Beast / Roman Empire. (Nero)
Nero's IMAGE was on the money, which was spoken of in the Olivet Discourse.
Nero's NAME was on the money as well.
Nero was the "MOUTH" of the Beast, or the "voice" for the Roman Empire.
You could not buy or sell unless you used Nero's money.

Its the general opinion that John wrote revelation around 95 AD, therefore the reference cant be to Nero, or the 2nd temple, as Nero was dead by then and Domitian was the current emperor, and the temple had been destroyed 25 years earlier.

He must be referring to a future temple, whether He's referring
to an actual 'literal' temple, or the body of Christ is debateable.

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:50 PM
Its the general opinion that John wrote revelation around 95 AD, therefore the reference cant be to Nero, or the 2nd temple, as Nero was dead by then and Domitian was the current emperor, and the temple had been destroyed 25 years earlier.

He must be referring to a future temple, whether He's referring
to an actual 'literal' temple, or the body of Christ is debateable.

Welcome Grafted in, hope you enjoy, and will continue to imput here.

Just to add to your post, When Jesus returns the beast and the false prophet are here, so as you say it could not be Nero, or past.

Firstfruits

honcho
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:52 PM
Shirley

There's plenty of evidence in Scripture that a third temple will be built. You will have to wait until its built to believe, around 2010 sounds good to me.

honcho
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:56 PM
Just to add to your post, When Jesus returns the beast and the false prophet are here, so as you say it could not be Nero, or past.

The Antichrist and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire just before Armageddon Rev. 19:20

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:15 PM
The Antichrist and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire just before Armageddon Rev. 19:20

And that is when Jesus returns;

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

ShirleyFord
Feb 24th 2008, 02:10 AM
Shirley

There's plenty of evidence in Scripture that a third temple will be built. You will have to wait until its built to believe, around 2010 sounds good to me.

Honcho,

No doubt some Jews in Israel are determined to build a temple in Jerusalem. And I believe they will if they get half a chance. But if they do, it will not be a third stone temple of God.

The first and second stone temples in Jerusalem were temples of God. God prophecied that they would be built. The first one He prophecied to King David about his son Solemn building the first temple. The second one He prophecied to Isaiah and Jeremiah specifically. We can see both the first and second temple when they were being built from start to finish.

Jesus and those who are His are the third temple, the true temple of God. I have not been able to find anywhere in Scripture a third stone temple prophecied to be built in Jerusalem after the second one was destroyed.


Shirley

DIZZY
Feb 24th 2008, 05:54 AM
Honcho,

No doubt some Jews in Israel are determined to build a temple in Jerusalem. And I believe they will if they get half a chance. But if they do, it will not be a third stone temple of God.

The first and second stone temples in Jerusalem were temples of God. God prophecied that they would be built. The first one He prophecied to King David about his son Solemn building the first temple. The second one He prophecied to Isaiah and Jeremiah specifically. We can see both the first and second temple when they were being built from start to finish.

Jesus and those who are His are the third temple, the true temple of God. I have not been able to find anywhere in Scripture a third stone temple prophecied to be built in Jerusalem after the second one was destroyed.


Shirley

Hi Shirley,
The third temple must be built in the future for an angel told John to take a reed and measure the temple of God and the altar. We as God's children yes are a temple, but we have no sacrafical altar in us. Yes I know we are a living sacrifice every day, but that is not the same. Plus this temple is in the holy city Jerusalem. The outer court has been left to the Gentiles to trod under foot. Revelation 11 is quite plain about this temple of God's, this temple is not the body of Christ being the church, for the church is not around when all this is happening.

This temple is not a past temple it is a future temple, John is prophecying about things that are to happen in the future.

The Israelites build this third temple realizing they are sinners and are in need of a saviour, a Messiah, so they seek him through the sacrifice and blood of animals. These are the ones measured out inside the temple, these are the remnant that God will take into the wilderness. I am talking about all those Jews who worship in the new temple, whether they are in the field or on the roof God will take them out into the wilderness where He has provided a place for them.

Matthew 24:15-18
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

Revelation 12:14
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

ShirleyFord
Feb 24th 2008, 02:27 PM
Hi Shirley,
The third temple must be built in the future for an angel told John to take a reed and measure the temple of God and the altar. We as God's children yes are a temple, but we have no sacrafical altar in us. Yes I know we are a living sacrifice every day, but that is not the same. Plus this temple is in the holy city Jerusalem. The outer court has been left to the Gentiles to trod under foot. Revelation 11 is quite plain about this temple of God's, this temple is not the body of Christ being the church, for the church is not around when all this is happening.

Dizzy,

John is shown in a vision the coming tribulation of Satan's wrath on the Church just before the Second Coming of Christ:

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Then John is shown in a vision the rapture of the Church at the Second Coming of Christ at the sounding of the seventh trumpet:


11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


Then John is shown the final general judgement of God of the just and the unjust at His Second Coming:


18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


This temple is not a past temple it is a future temple, John is prophecying about things that are to happen in the future.

John doesn't write down in Rev 11:1-2 what temple he is referring to. And he doesn't say if the temple is on earth or in heaven. He does speak however of the temple in heaven later on in Rev 11.


The Israelites build this third temple realizing they are sinners and are in need of a saviour, a Messiah, so they seek him through the sacrifice and blood of animals. These are the ones measured out inside the temple, these are the remnant that God will take into the wilderness. I am talking about all those Jews who worship in the new temple, whether they are in the field or on the roof God will take them out into the wilderness where He has provided a place for them.

Are you saying that God would be so pleased with unbelieving Israelite sinners seeking salvation from a messiah in a third rebuilt stone temple by offering the blood of animal sacrifices that He would reward them and protect them?



Matthew 24:15-18
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.


Nowhere in the OT or NT is "the abomination of desolation" identified as "antichrist".

Notice that Jesus doesn't say that "the holy place" is a third rebuilt stone temple in Jerusalem.

Jesus is speaking of only those Israelites in Judea. What about the rest of the Israelites living outside Judea in the nation of Israel?


Revelation 12:14
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

John doesn't identify "the woman" as Israel.

"Israel" is mentioned 3 times in Revelation.

Rev 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 21:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


But is never referred to as a "woman" or "her" or "she" or "bride" or "wife".

Jews are mentioned only twice in Revelation:

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


But is never referred to as a "woman" or "her" or "she" or "bride" or "wife".

On the other hand, the Church is referred to in Revelation as "she", "her", "the wife", "the bride".

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



Shirley

Grafted_In
Feb 24th 2008, 07:00 PM
Thanks for the welcome Firstfruits.

Shirley, I think its quite clear that the 'woman' referred to is Israel, the twelve stars representing the twelve tribes/sons of Jacob.
Israel through Mary gave birth to Yeshua, the church did'nt give birth to Yeshua.

When Satan is cast down to earth and with rage seeks to destroy the offspring of the woman, it refers to the people of Israel as the church/bride of Christ does'nt produce offspring in that sense.

I know these 'persecuted people' are said to 'keep the comandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ', (Rev 12) so Israel at this time must go through the realisation that Yeshua IS their Messiah, the Son of God.

ShirleyFord
Feb 24th 2008, 07:55 PM
Thanks for the welcome Firstfruits.

Shirley, I think its quite clear that the 'woman' referred to is Israel, the twelve stars representing the twelve tribes/sons of Jacob.
Israel through Mary gave birth to Yeshua, the church did'nt give birth to Yeshua.

When Satan is cast down to earth and with rage seeks to destroy the offspring of the woman, it refers to the people of Israel as the church/bride of Christ does'nt produce offspring in that sense.

I know these 'persecuted people' are said to 'keep the comandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ', (Rev 12) so Israel at this time must go through the realisation that Yeshua IS their Messiah, the Son of God.


Mary, the mother of Christ in the flesh was a member of Christ's Church.

On the day of Penticost in Acts 2, 3000 Jews dwelling in Jerusalem from every nation under heaven believed the gospel message of Jesus Christ (Messiah)that Peter preached, "22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it"
and "were added unto them" (v. 41). Who was "them"?

The 120 Jews gathered together before the day of Penticost and were still there when the day of Penticost had full come in Acts 1:

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty)

In Acts 2:47, those 120 + the 3000 are called "the church".

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


These are Christians, the Church, those in Christ made up of men and women, young and old, bond and free, the wealthy and the poor, both Jews and Gentiles:

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



Shirley

Grafted_In
Feb 24th 2008, 08:30 PM
Whats your thoughts on an awakening of Israel/the Jews to Christ at the end times?

markdrums
Feb 24th 2008, 08:52 PM
Its the general opinion that John wrote revelation around 95 AD, therefore the reference cant be to Nero, or the 2nd temple, as Nero was dead by then and Domitian was the current emperor, and the temple had been destroyed 25 years earlier.

He must be referring to a future temple, whether He's referring
to an actual 'literal' temple, or the body of Christ is debateable.

It's very important to know WHAT you believe & WHY you believe it.

People mention a 3rd temple being built, & reinstituted animal sacrifices during a literal 1000 year Earthly reighn of Jesus. They "believe it", but I have to wonder if they know WHY they believe it??

Is it because that's what they read? Or they think that's what the scripture says? If so, WHY did they come to that conclusion? & WHY would a new temple make sense?

If they read, or were told, that a new temple is coming and the old sacrificial system would once again be in effect, how can they validate those claims, when Jesus specifically said true believers will no longer worship in a temple, but in SPIRIT?
When John says "I saw no temple... because JESUS is the temple, & will dwell amongst his people", how can a temple built by hands be in God's plan?

When Jesus ended sacrifices once & for all, on the cross, why would we believe temple sacrifices will once again be necessary?

The big question is, why do people believe what they believe, concerning a new temple?

:hmm:

Grafted_In
Feb 24th 2008, 09:09 PM
Thats why I said,
He must be referring to a future temple, whether He's referring to an actual 'literal' temple, or the body of Christ is debateable.
Ive heard good arguments for and against.
To me the idea of a literal stone temple is an insult to God, to Christs work on the cross. however, we're not talking about 'Christians' setting up a temple, but Jews, Jews who are by and large, still in unbelief, their are many Jews who would greatly desire a third temple, they already have made the temple instruments and such in preparation for such a time (the temple institute comes to mind).
You may add, why would God allow such a thing, well, why does God allow many things that are clearly an affront to Him?

ShirleyFord
Feb 24th 2008, 09:14 PM
Whats your thoughts on an awakening of Israel/the Jews to Christ at the end times?

I would pray that Israel/the Jews would have at least as great of an awakening to Christ in the future before the Second Coming of Christ as they had beginning on the day of Penticost:


Acts 2 - 3000 Jews were saved in one day - v. 41
Acts 2 - Jews saved, added to the Church daily - v. 47
Acts 4 - 5000 Jews were saved in one day - v. 4
Acts 5 - multitudes of Jews both men and women added to the Lord - v. 14
Acts 6 - the number of Jewish disciples was multiplied - v. 1
Acts 6 - the number of disciples in Jerusalem increased greatly - v. 7
Acts 6 - a great company of the Jewish priests were obedient to the faith - v. 7
Shirley

David Taylor
Feb 25th 2008, 02:02 AM
I would pray that Israel/the Jews would have at least as great of an awakening to Christ in the future before the Second Coming of Christ as they had beginning on the day of Penticost:
Acts 2 - 3000 Jews were saved in one day - v. 41
Acts 2 - Jews saved, added to the Church daily - v. 47
Acts 4 - 5000 Jews were saved in one day - v. 4
Acts 5 - multitudes of Jews both men and women added to the Lord - v. 14
Acts 6 - the number of Jewish disciples was multiplied - v. 1
Acts 6 - the number of disciples in Jerusalem increased greatly - v. 7
Acts 6 - a great company of the Jewish priests were obedient to the faith - v. 7Shirley


Amen Shirley,

In the New Testament Gospels and book of Acts alone we find the following Jews coming to seek and hear Christ....many of them believing and following Him!

Too often in our modern day, people forget the great Work the Lord did among the hearts of Jews living in the first Century; and which he has been doing ever since....(nothing postponed or withheld from them by any stretch of the imagination!)

Matthew 4:25 "And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan. And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:"
.
Matthew 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
.
Matthew 8:18 Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side.
.
Matthew 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
.
Matthew 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
.
Matthew 11:6 "And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? "
.
Matthew 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
.
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
.
Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:"
.
Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.
.
Matthew 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. And they did all eat, and were filled"
.
Matthew 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
.
Matthew 15:30 And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel. "
.
Matthew 19:2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
.
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. And as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude followed him. "
.
Matthew 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. "

Just reading Matthew alone, there are 6 different multitudes of Jews, and 10 different great-multitudes of Jews who came to Jesus.Add the rest of the gospel accounts and the book of Acts accounts, and there should be no doubt to anyone that there was a wonderful and amazing harvest among the Jews of the first century; and that harvest continues today....as laborers still go out into the fields, ripe for harvest!!!

Firstfruits
Feb 25th 2008, 09:53 AM
Thats why I said,
Ive heard good arguments for and against.
To me the idea of a literal stone temple is an insult to God, to Christs work on the cross. however, we're not talking about 'Christians' setting up a temple, but Jews, Jews who are by and large, still in unbelief, their are many Jews who would greatly desire a third temple, they already have made the temple instruments and such in preparation for such a time (the temple institute comes to mind).
You may add, why would God allow such a thing, well, why does God allow many things that are clearly an affront to Him?

That is where the following would be applied;

Mt 24:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mk 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Why would God allow such a thing?

Mt 24:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mk 13:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Lk 21:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

John146
Feb 25th 2008, 06:54 PM
Jesus said "standing where it ought not," Where do you see "he"?

Jesus tells us more clearly what the he is in Luke's account:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The Roman military, "armies", is the "it" Jesus was speaking about.

Good catch, Shirley. This is how people misinterpret Scripture, by changing the text. Like you said, Jesus said "it", not "he". People see what they want to see sometimes.

John146
Feb 25th 2008, 07:09 PM
Thats why I said,
Ive heard good arguments for and against.
To me the idea of a literal stone temple is an insult to God, to Christs work on the cross. however, we're not talking about 'Christians' setting up a temple, but Jews, Jews who are by and large, still in unbelief, their are many Jews who would greatly desire a third temple, they already have made the temple instruments and such in preparation for such a time (the temple institute comes to mind).
You may add, why would God allow such a thing, well, why does God allow many things that are clearly an affront to Him?

But the issue is: where is the prophecy concerning such a temple? If a temple is built it cannot be the temple of God. So, no one can try to say that either 2 Thess 2:3-4 or Revelation 11:1-2 has anything to do with this temple that these unbelieving Jews may or may not build.

Firstfruits
Feb 25th 2008, 07:53 PM
Good catch, Shirley. This is how people misinterpret Scripture, by changing the text. Like you said, Jesus said "it", not "he". People see what they want to see sometimes.

However it does not change the beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire as individuals.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


I take it that you do accept that they are individuals that are cast in to the lake of fire? Remember they were cast alive into the lake.

wpm
Feb 25th 2008, 08:34 PM
However it does not change the beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire as individuals.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


I take it that you do accept that they are individuals that are cast in to the lake of fire? Remember they were cast alive into the lake.



Could they not be the anti-Christ spirit and the spirit of false religion that are deluding the masses throughout time?

Paul

heart hammer
Feb 26th 2008, 01:12 AM
You want to know where it is that the abomination of desolation will stand....
If we are the temple of God and the heart of the believer is the holy place (because the Holy Spirit dwells there) what does that say.
Look at II Thessalonians 2:3- "...that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition."

Who are those which are falling away? Where do they fall from? What is the strong dillusion which God will send upon all those loved not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness? Who will be working the lying signs and wonders to deceive if it were possible the veyr elect? Whose name will they be coming in?
Who was it in John's day who went out from among them (falling away as it were) making manifest that they were not of them but those who were lead of another spirit than the Holy Spirit. They fell prey to the deception. In these last of the last days we are seeing Satan overcome many and deceiving many. These are falling away to perdition believing doctrines of devils, and having their ears tickled by damnable heresies denying even the Lord who bought them.
There is no geographic location to find this abomination taking place but the end is spiritual destruction of the believers.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God. So what temple does Satan covet most but your heart. This is where it will happen. So Hold Fast to the Word you have received that no man may take your crown.
Take care and God Bless

Firstfruits
Feb 26th 2008, 08:45 AM
Could they not be the anti-Christ spirit and the spirit of false religion that are deluding the masses throughout time?

Paul

According to the following it is not just the spirit, he institutes and exalts himself to be worshiped as God in the temple of God.

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

resbmc
Apr 11th 2008, 01:27 PM
I know that the temple has been pre-fabbed and can be put together at anytime, but if it is built somewhere, it will be destroyed because God says to go measure it, but leave out the courtyard in Revelations

ShirleyFord
Apr 11th 2008, 03:53 PM
I know that the temple has been pre-fabbed and can be put together at anytime, but if it is built somewhere, it will be destroyed because God says to go measure it, but leave out the courtyard in Revelations

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

The angel told John to "measure" three things:


measure the temple of God
measure the altar
measure them that worship therein (within the temple)
I know next to nothing about carpentry. But I do know that to measure something is not the same as building something.

The angel didn't tell John to build the temple of God no more than he told him to build the worshippers within the temple. But to insist that Rev 11:1 prophecies that the Jews will build a third temple, we must also insist that the Jews are also going to build the people who will worship in that third temple.


Shirley

heart hammer
Apr 13th 2008, 02:03 AM
Amen shirley...
If you focus on the entire context of the book of Revelation, throughout the whole book John makes reference to events taking place in heaven. In the heavenly temple. Rather than priests going in and out of the temple we see angels. We know Jesus is the High Priest. We know that God is revealing His message from that temple and the angels come out having that message from the Lord. I believe it was in Hebrews where it is mentioned that these things are but a shadow of things to come and not the very thing.
Take Care and God Bless.

2Witnesses
Apr 13th 2008, 03:24 AM
But the issue is: where is the prophecy concerning such a temple? If a temple is built it cannot be the temple of God. So, no one can try to say that either 2 Thess 2:3-4 or Revelation 11:1-2 has anything to do with this temple that these unbelieving Jews may or may not build.

John,

'Where in Scripture does it command the building of a third temple?' You asked. And its a good and fair question.

If we answer it from our Christian perspective, we will not find any such command, seeing as how the House of God is now the Church, the living Body of Christ. So any third temple would not be of God.

Now, the problem is, this perspective is not universally held by Christians. For there are many who hold to a 'double covenant' position when it comes to Israel and the Church.

It is their belief that Israel had to be restored as a nation before the Messiah comes back. And this means a complete restoration; which includes the Law of Moses and a temple.

Then, from the Jewish perspective, is a long held belief that a third temple is not only longed for, it is promised, and commanded in the Tanach.

Since its destruction, Jews have mourned over the fall of the 2nd temple, and to this day mourn its demise on the 9th of Ab.

But to comfort themselves they say, not only will another temple be built, it will be built by the Messiah; the one who will come and exalt Israel above the nations.

He will build the temple because God has commanded as one of the 613 laws of Moses that Israel build a house as a place for His name. So as part of the Law, a temple, a Mikdash, be built.

It is my belief that when AC comes, he will claim to be the seed of David, and Israel's Messiah. And, as in Jewish tradition, the proof that one is the Messiah will be in the fact that he will build the temple.

And this will happen!

2Witnesses

ShirleyFord
Apr 13th 2008, 01:44 PM
John,

'Where in Scripture does it command the building of a third temple?' You asked. And its a good and fair question.

If we answer it from our Christian perspective, we will not find any such command, seeing as how the House of God is now the Church, the living Body of Christ. So any third temple would not be of God.

What would "our Christian perspective" have anything to do with our not finding such a command in the Bible? If God has not commanded a third stone temple to be built but states clearly that now since Jesus has Come the 1st time, the Chuch is now the third temple that Messiah is building, then that is a Scriptural fact, the literal Truth of God's holy word. And no one's perspect, whether a Christian perspective or otherwise will change that Scriptural truthful fact.





Then, from the Jewish perspective, is a long held belief that a third temple is not only longed for, it is promised, and commanded in the Tanach.


God didn't promise the Jews and commanded them to build a third temple in the OT. He promised and commanded them to build the 1st and 2nd temples. And God fulfilled those promises to the Jews and they obeyed God's command and built the 1st and 2nd stone temples.

It makes no difference likewise as to what the Jewish perspective is. If God has not commanded a third stone temple to be built but states clearly that now since Jesus has Come the 1st time, the Chuch is now the third temple that Messiah is building, then that is a Scriptural fact, the literal Truth of God's holy word. And no one's perspect, whether a Christian perspective or the Jewish perspective will change that Scriptural truthful fact.



He will build the temple because God has commanded as one of the 613 laws of Moses that Israel build a house as a place for His name. So as part of the Law, a temple, a Mikdash, be built.

God spoke to Moses in Deuteronomy about a place that He would choose to place His Name:

Deut 12:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:

Deut 12:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:

Deut 12:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But in the place which the LORD shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.

Deut 12:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But thou must eat them before the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God in all that thou puttest thine hands unto.

Deut 12:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) Only thy holy things which thou hast, and thy vows, thou shalt take, and go unto the place which the LORD shall choose:

Deut 14:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Deut 14:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

Deut 14:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

Deut 15:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Thou shalt eat it before the LORD thy God year by year in the place which the LORD shall choose, thou and thy household.

Deut 16:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.

Deut 16:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

Deut 16:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.

Deut 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD shall choose: because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice.

Deut 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:

Deut 17:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;

Deut 17:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

Deut 17:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

Deut 18:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire of his mind unto the place which the LORD shall choose;

Deut 23:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.

Deut 26:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) That thou shalt take of the first of all the fruit of the earth, which thou shalt bring of thy land that the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt put it in a basket, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name there.

Deut 30:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=30&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deut 31:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.


But God didn't tell Moses where that place was or what the name of that place was. God chose Jerusalem to place His name in Israel and told David, not Moses, to build the 1st temple. And God prophecied to the Prophet Isaiah many years before the 1st temple was destroyed by the Babylonians the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the second temple by the Persian King Cyrus, long before Cyrus was born.



Shirley

2Witnesses
Apr 14th 2008, 04:40 AM
Shirley,

Chill out! First, there is NO place in Scripture that says the Church is a third temple.

Second, I never said that God is commanding the Jews to build a 3rd temple. I said it was 'their perspective\.

Third, it is the Anti-Christ who will use this dream of a third temple to grab power.

2Witnesses

Darren
Apr 14th 2008, 05:38 AM
Shirley,

Chill out! First, there is NO place in Scripture that says the Church is a third temple.





Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];


Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


satan will place himself as the "christ" in the end-time fallen and deceived "church".

remember, paul tells us there must be a falling away first.

once the church has fallen away from the truth, the temple of god finds itself vulnerable to the infiltration of the anti-christ.

he will be as christ worshipped liked christ.

2Witnesses
Apr 14th 2008, 07:03 AM
Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];


Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


satan will place himself as the "christ" in the end-time fallen and deceived "church".

remember, paul tells us there must be a falling away first.

once the church has fallen away from the truth, the temple of god finds itself vulnerable to the infiltration of the anti-christ.

he will be as christ worshipped liked christ.

Darren,

Thanks for your input. But this verse says nothing about the Church 'being a 3rd temple'.

The Church is a living Body, composed of living stones; having a royal priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices.

The subject here is concerns a third temple of stone, rebuilt and located in Jerusalem.

2Witnesses

ShirleyFord
Apr 14th 2008, 08:20 AM
Shirley,

Chill out! First, there is NO place in Scripture that says the Church is a third temple.

But the third temple mentioned in Scripture after the second temple was built and still standing was the body of Christ. (John 2:19-21)

Throughout Paul's epistles we find that the Church, the body of Christ, is the temple of God after the second temple was built and still standing.

Since you disagree that the Church is the third temple, what temple of God do you then believe that the Church is?


Second, I never said that God is commanding the Jews to build a 3rd temple. I said it was 'their perspective\.

This is exactly what you said that makes it sound as though you agree with the Jews perspective:



Then, from the Jewish perspective, is a long held belief that a third temple is not only longed for, it is promised, and commanded in the Tanach.

He will build the temple because God has commanded as one of the 613 laws of Moses that Israel build a house as a place for His name. So as part of the Law, a temple, a Mikdash, be built




Third, it is the Anti-Christ who will use this dream of a third temple to grab power.

2Witnesses

But the Bible doesn't say that.

I believe that in order for something to be a biblical prophecy, the Bible somewhere will say what the prophecy is saying.

As I have said before, no doubt the Jews will build a third stone temple in Jerusalem if they get half a chance to. But even if they succeed, it will not be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy since we don't find any such prophecy in the Bible, OT or NT.

Shirley

2Witnesses
Apr 14th 2008, 08:53 AM
But the third temple mentioned in Scripture after the second temple was built and still standing was the body of Christ. (John 2:19-21)

Throughout Paul's epistles we find that the Church, the body of Christ, is the temple of God after the second temple was built and still standing.

Since you disagree that the Church is the third temple, what temple of God do you then believe that the Church is?



This is exactly what you said that makes it sound as though you agree with the Jews perspective:






But the Bible doesn't say that.

I believe that in order for something to be a biblical prophecy, the Bible somewhere will say what the prophecy is saying.

As I have said before, no doubt the Jews will build a third stone temple in Jerusalem if they get half a chance to. But even if they succeed, it will not be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy since we don't find any such prophecy in the Bible, OT or NT.

Shirley

Shirley,

The Church is not a temple of stone being re-built, which is what the subject of this thread is.

But no, yoo are wrong about me. I do not agree with the Jewish perspective. I do not think there should be another temple. But I do believe there will be one.

I think when it says 'he will stand in the holy place'; or, 'the abomination standing in the holy place', I think it infers that there will be a holy place to stand in. And I beleive this refers to a temple of stone, and not the Church.

Scripture says AC will build the temple, in so many words. But no, there is not one statement actually saying this.

2Witnesses

ShirleyFord
Apr 14th 2008, 02:59 PM
Shirley,

The Church is not a temple of stone being re-built, which is what the subject of this thread is.

I agree. Neither does 2 Thessalonians 2:4 or Rev 11:1 mention a stone temple. Both simply just say, "the temple of God".

The only stone temple referred to as "the temple of God" in the NT is the second stone temple, 3 times.

Once by Matthew when speaking of the temple that Jesus went into during His earthly ministry:

Mt 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves

By a false witness who thought that Jesus was referring to the second stone temple still standing at that time in Jerusalem when Jesus referred to His own body as being the temple of God,

Mt 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

And by Luke describing where Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist, was taking care of his priestly duties.

Luke 1:9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.




But no, yoo are wrong about me. I do not agree with the Jewish perspective. I do not think there should be another temple. But I do believe there will be one.


I also don't think that there should be another stone temple built. Furthermore, I have never been able to find a Scripture speaking of a third stone temple or the Jews building any kind of temple after the second temple was destroyed.

Darren
Apr 14th 2008, 03:09 PM
Darren,

Thanks for your input. But this verse says nothing about the Church 'being a 3rd temple'.

The Church is a living Body, composed of living stones; having a royal priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices.

The subject here is concerns a third temple of stone, rebuilt and located in Jerusalem.

2Witnesses

i may be a mile off, but are you saying there will be a third temple built or that scripture says there will be a third temple?

this op was asking if scripture spoke of the temple being rebuilt as a sign of the end of days.

i feel that the temple paul refers to in 2nd thess. is a metaphor of the church and not a physical temple.

Semachiah
Apr 14th 2008, 03:38 PM
Shalom,

FYI - The Third Temple has already been rebuilt and dedicated to YHVH. It was dug out where the last Temple stood and it is under the Temple on the Mount. At the present time the Jews are doing two things. One is to remake the furniture to be placed within The Temple and two DNA testing to find the heirs of Aaron in order that they may serve as the Priest and Levites within The Temple.

Before someone asked where it says "it" as it concerned Mark 13:14 and it is found in the Greek. The KJV did not have some of the fragments we have today so they rendered it as "he" because that best fit their view. It may be used that way but is more commonly used as "it". This can be read in the Power New Testament (http://www.treeoflifeinc.org/letschat/index.php#5) where we read...
MK 13:14. “When you would see the abomination of the desolation placed where it must not be, the one who reads must understand that those in Judea must flee to the mountains,

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 05:23 PM
Shirley,

The Church is not a temple of stone being re-built, which is what the subject of this thread is.

But no, yoo are wrong about me. I do not agree with the Jewish perspective. I do not think there should be another temple. But I do believe there will be one.

I think when it says 'he will stand in the holy place'; or, 'the abomination standing in the holy place', I think it infers that there will be a holy place to stand in. And I beleive this refers to a temple of stone, and not the Church.

How could this building, which you agree would be built by those who are mistaken in their beliefs, possibly be called "the holy place"? Remember, Jesus is the One calling it "the holy place". What would be holy about a building built upon false premises and a building that was not one that God Himself commanded to be built as were the previous two temples?

Midwest Bob
Apr 15th 2008, 12:32 PM
If man builds a temple in the future, will it be the Temple of God? Not IMHO.
In order for a temple to be the temple of God, God would have to dwell in that temple. Scripture tells us that God will not dwell in the temple made by hands. Acts17:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act017.html#24) God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
JMHO but I find it hard to believe there will be a man made temple of God when Scripture says God will not dwell in a temple built with hands.
The phrase temple of God is only used eight times in the Bible. Mat21:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat021.html#12) Mat26:61 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#61) 1Cor3:16 1Cor3:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr003.html#16) 2Cor6:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr006.html#16) 2Th2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Th/2Th002.html#top) Rev11:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#top) Rev11:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#19)
1) Mat21:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat021.html#12) "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,"
In this verse the temple referred to is the same temple that Jesus declared desolate and was destroyed in 70 A.D. No future temple here, let's move on.
2) Mat26:61 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#61) "And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days."
I am sure we are all in agreement that the temple spoken of here was Jesus's body.
3) 1Cor3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr003.html#16) "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
In this verse we are told the temple of God is the body of the believer not a conventional building.
4) 1Cor3:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr003.html#16) "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Once again we are told the body of the believer is the temple of God, not some future building.
5) 2Cor6:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr006.html#16) "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
This verse tells us for the third time that the temple of God is the body of the believer, not a future building. So we learn that the bodies of regenerate believers are the temple of God. The above three verses are not open to interpretation. Scripture offers no other option than our bodies as the location of the temple of God, through Christ's death and resurrection. Nowhere does the Lord redefine the term.
6) 2Th2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Th/2Th002.html#top) "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Now some will say that because Paul wrote this verse prior to writing Corinthians that this verse proves a future temple. God is not the author of confusion and all Scripture is inspired by God. God knew when He inspired Paul to write this verse that Paul would also give us the location when He had Paul write Corinthians. If God meant for us to believe the temple referred to in2TH2:4 was anywhere other than the body of the believer He would have given us a location to prevent confusion as God is not the author of confusion. The Scriptures do not contradict each other so we have no choice but to accept the fact that the only temple of God after the crucifixion is the body of the believer!
7) Rev11:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#top) "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein."
8) Rev11:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#19) "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
The figurative language in the above two verses from John's vision in Revelation are sometimes interpreted to suggest otherwise, but to do so would nullify the truth of the verses that clearly peg the location of the "temple of God" that are not open to interpretation. This would suggest that Jesus' perfect and finished work on the Cross was incomplete. That's it, the above eight verses are the only eight verses that use the term "temple of God".
Some claim that Ezekiel's book calls for a future rebuilt temple apparently because of the extent of detail. But within the context of that description we find: Eze43:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze043.html#7) "And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places."
Are we really to expect God to live in an earthly temple, built by the hands of men forever? Not if we believe what we are told in Acts17:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act017.html#24)
A future man made temple would be a restoration of the Old Covenant and an affront to Jesus Christ and His perfect blood atonement for our sins ( the Lamb slain (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev013.html#8) from the foundation of the world).
To believe that the temple of God resides anywhere other than in the bodies of regenerate believers is a product of doctrine (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ribera+alcazar+futurism+preterism&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) (Held by a minority of the church - primarily over the last century.). Jesus warned the Pharisees of such: Mark7:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar007.html#13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John146
Apr 15th 2008, 10:02 PM
Good post, Bob, Except that I would add that the temple of God refers to the body of believers as a whole as well as individually. See Ephesians 2:19-22, for example.

Eric

heart hammer
Apr 15th 2008, 11:36 PM
Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];


Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


satan will place himself as the "christ" in the end-time fallen and deceived "church".

remember, paul tells us there must be a falling away first.

once the church has fallen away from the truth, the temple of god finds itself vulnerable to the infiltration of the anti-christ.

he will be as christ worshipped liked christ.

You have definitely been doing your homework. No new temple but the one which Christ is building, '...not by might nor by strength by My Spirit...' Read Zechariah chapter 4.
Take Care and God Bless

2Witnesses
Apr 16th 2008, 05:15 AM
If man builds a temple in the future, will it be the Temple of God? Not IMHO.
In order for a temple to be the temple of God, God would have to dwell in that temple. Scripture tells us that God will not dwell in the temple made by hands. Acts17:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act017.html#24) God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
JMHO but I find it hard to believe there will be a man made temple of God when Scripture says God will not dwell in a temple built with hands.
The phrase temple of God is only used eight times in the Bible. Mat21:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat021.html#12) Mat26:61 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#61) 1Cor3:16 1Cor3:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr003.html#16) 2Cor6:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr006.html#16) 2Th2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Th/2Th002.html#top) Rev11:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#top) Rev11:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#19)
1) Mat21:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat021.html#12) "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,"
In this verse the temple referred to is the same temple that Jesus declared desolate and was destroyed in 70 A.D. No future temple here, let's move on.
2) Mat26:61 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#61) "And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days."
I am sure we are all in agreement that the temple spoken of here was Jesus's body.
3) 1Cor3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr003.html#16) "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
In this verse we are told the temple of God is the body of the believer not a conventional building.
4) 1Cor3:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr003.html#16) "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Once again we are told the body of the believer is the temple of God, not some future building.
5) 2Cor6:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr006.html#16) "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
This verse tells us for the third time that the temple of God is the body of the believer, not a future building. So we learn that the bodies of regenerate believers are the temple of God. The above three verses are not open to interpretation. Scripture offers no other option than our bodies as the location of the temple of God, through Christ's death and resurrection. Nowhere does the Lord redefine the term.
6) 2Th2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Th/2Th002.html#top) "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Now some will say that because Paul wrote this verse prior to writing Corinthians that this verse proves a future temple. God is not the author of confusion and all Scripture is inspired by God. God knew when He inspired Paul to write this verse that Paul would also give us the location when He had Paul write Corinthians. If God meant for us to believe the temple referred to in2TH2:4 was anywhere other than the body of the believer He would have given us a location to prevent confusion as God is not the author of confusion. The Scriptures do not contradict each other so we have no choice but to accept the fact that the only temple of God after the crucifixion is the body of the believer!
7) Rev11:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#top) "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein."
8) Rev11:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#19) "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
The figurative language in the above two verses from John's vision in Revelation are sometimes interpreted to suggest otherwise, but to do so would nullify the truth of the verses that clearly peg the location of the "temple of God" that are not open to interpretation. This would suggest that Jesus' perfect and finished work on the Cross was incomplete. That's it, the above eight verses are the only eight verses that use the term "temple of God".
Some claim that Ezekiel's book calls for a future rebuilt temple apparently because of the extent of detail. But within the context of that description we find: Eze43:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze043.html#7) "And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places."
Are we really to expect God to live in an earthly temple, built by the hands of men forever? Not if we believe what we are told in Acts17:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act017.html#24)
A future man made temple would be a restoration of the Old Covenant and an affront to Jesus Christ and His perfect blood atonement for our sins ( the Lamb slain (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev013.html#8) from the foundation of the world).
To believe that the temple of God resides anywhere other than in the bodies of regenerate believers is a product of doctrine (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ribera+alcazar+futurism+preterism&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) (Held by a minority of the church - primarily over the last century.). Jesus warned the Pharisees of such: Mark7:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar007.html#13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Amen!

There will be a temple. But it will not be God's temple. And to completly understand why there will be another temple, you must understand what this 'restored' Jewish state represents.

This is NOT the promised restoration! This is NOT a fulfillment of Ez 37, or of Isa. 66, or any other prophecy concerning Israel's redeemption.

But those who think it does represent such, also believe in order for Israel to receive its full restoration, this would include a temple of stone.

The true restoration of Israel in these end of days involves the same thing which occured when Jesus first came. It involes the 'calling-out' of His elect. This means they become part of the Body of Christ, and not some separate state, with a different covenant.

John, Jesus calls it the 'holy place' because that is what people would understand, and not that it actually IS a 'holy place'.

2Witnesses

ShirleyFord
Apr 16th 2008, 11:21 AM
John, Jesus calls it the 'holy place' because that is what people would understand, and not that it actually IS a 'holy place'.

2Witnesses

Jesus doesn't lie. He is God that He cannot lie. Why would He say something that was not true? Where do you fiind anywhere in the gospels, Jesus speaking untruths to people what they understood and accepted?

Jesus is "the truth". Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is how He spoke to those who rejected Him:

Jn 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Jn 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Jn 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?



When we read all of the Scriptures in context where Jesus said "holy place", we don't find one mention of a stone temple, holy of holies, the Levitical priesthood being restored, the restoration of modern-day Israel or an antichrist placing his throne in the holy of holies of a rebuilt third temple and seating himself there.


Shirley

John146
Apr 16th 2008, 03:00 PM
John, Jesus calls it the 'holy place' because that is what people would understand, and not that it actually IS a 'holy place'.

2Witnesses

What is your basis for saying that? Don't you think Jesus would have made it clear that He was not speaking of an actual holy place but only one that unbelievers would call the holy place, if that was the case? The context of His words doesn't even hint at the idea of Him not actually speaking of something that He Himself would have called the holy place or what His disciples would have considered the holy place at that time, so I think your interpretation is way off base. Jesus would never say something that would be so confusing. If He didn't really mean "the holy place" but only something that unbelieving Jews would consider "the holy place" then that would be very confusing because all He said was that it was "the holy place". Should we think that maybe when Jesus said the Son of man would come He didn't mean He was actually literally coming again but only whoever the unbelieving Jews believed was the Son of man would come? How far should we take this idea that Jesus didn't really mean what He said or that He only spoke in terms of what unbelieving Jews would understand Him to be talking about?

Eric

2Witnesses
Apr 17th 2008, 12:52 AM
What is your basis for saying that? Don't you think Jesus would have made it clear that He was not speaking of an actual holy place but only one that unbelievers would call the holy place, if that was the case? The context of His words doesn't even hint at the idea of Him not actually speaking of something that He Himself would have called the holy place or what His disciples would have considered the holy place at that time, so I think your interpretation is way off base. Jesus would never say something that would be so confusing. If He didn't really mean "the holy place" but only something that unbelieving Jews would consider "the holy place" then that would be very confusing because all He said was that it was "the holy place". Should we think that maybe when Jesus said the Son of man would come He didn't mean He was actually literally coming again but only whoever the unbelieving Jews believed was the Son of man would come? How far should we take this idea that Jesus didn't really mean what He said or that He only spoke in terms of what unbelieving Jews would understand Him to be talking about?

Eric

Eric,

I think I am right on! But, that aside. If He indeed did mean the 'holy place', then it looks like there will be a temple, No?

I mean, if you want Jesus to mean what He says, and say what He means, t6hen He means 'the holy place'. And this refers to the temple of stone, and NOT to the Church. I mean...

2Witnesses

SoldierOfChrist
Apr 17th 2008, 05:39 AM
Regarding the Holy Place, I think the answer is in Hebrews 9 and you really have to read 1-28.
Hebrews 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.



Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;



Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:



Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

When we look back to Exodus...
Exodus 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.



Exodus 26:33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.



Exodus 26:34 And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place.



2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.



2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
There was a separation between the Holy Place and the most Holy and through Christ this vail is lifted. The Holy place is with God to be able to commune (speak with him) not any place or building. To do this we must have the Christ and Holy Spirit like five of the ten virgins.

Not that I understand it that well but it is my take on it.

Michael

Truthinlove
Apr 17th 2008, 07:23 AM
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

The angel told John to "measure" three things:

measure the temple of God
measure the altar
measure them that worship therein (within the temple)I know next to nothing about carpentry. But I do know that to measure something is not the same as building something.

The angel didn't tell John to build the temple of God no more than he told him to build the worshippers within the temple. But to insist that Rev 11:1 prophecies that the Jews will build a third temple, we must also insist that the Jews are also going to build the people who will worship in that third temple.


Shirley

Hi Shirley

Yes, he is told to measure...and measuring is not the same as building.

He is told to measure, because the temple is already built, the altar is already built.

What can this temple of God have to do with the body of Christ when it mentions the outer courtyard which is turned over to the nations and mentions the holy city...Jerusalem??

ShirleyFord
Apr 17th 2008, 10:58 AM
Hi Shirley

Yes, he is told to measure...and measuring is not the same as building.

He is told to measure, because the temple is already built, the altar is already built.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure (1) the temple of God, and (2) the altar, and (3) them that worship therein.

This Scripture doesn't mention that this temple is a man-made temple, a third stone temple built by the Jews. John was also told to measure "them", people, that worship in the temple of Rev 11:1. Certainly you are not suggesting that the Jews will build the people who worship inside of their third temple?




What can this temple of God have to do with the body of Christ when it mentions the outer courtyard which is turned over to the nations and mentions the holy city...Jerusalem??


Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:

These "Gentiles" are the unsaved unbelievers outside the temple. They are not allowed inside the temple of God. Only the saved believers are, as we see in v. 1.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

We find 2 different cities in Revelation 11:

1. "holy city" - v. 2

2. "great city" where our Lord was crucified - v. 8


The only "holy city" we find in Revelation is the heavenly city, New Jerusalem.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.




We know from the gospels that Jesus was crucified in the earthly city, earthly Jerusalem. And John is told in v. 8 that this "great city" is spiritually called "Sodom" and "Egypt".



Shirley

John146
Apr 17th 2008, 06:23 PM
Eric,

I think I am right on! But, that aside. If He indeed did mean the 'holy place', then it looks like there will be a temple, No?

No, not a future one. Again, how could a future temple be something Jesus would call "the holy place"? It couldn't. Simple as that. He was either speaking of old Jerusalem itself or of the second temple, which was still "the holy place" at the time He was speaking. This is clear when you read the parallel passage from Luke 21.

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: - Matt 24:15-16

Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies in 70 AD and they proceeded to ransack the city and the temple. He was basically saying that when those guys are seen entering into Jerusalem and standing in the holy place getting ready to attack, it's time to flee.



I mean, if you want Jesus to mean what He says, and say what He means, t6hen He means 'the holy place'. And this refers to the temple of stone, and NOT to the Church. I mean...

Exactly. I didn't say He was speaking of the Church. He was asked when the physical temple standing at that time would be destroyed and not a future one.