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Zorgblar
Feb 9th 2008, 12:55 PM
In the lake of fire are you tormented forever and ever or destoryed?Because i have never found any verses that say anything like"And the wicked were completely destoryed in the lake of fire" or "And the wicked were tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire".

Slug1
Feb 9th 2008, 01:06 PM
Here's my opinion, we aren't destroyed but separated from God after being tossed into this pit. Our physical minds cannot even comprehend the torment that will happen but is described for us as fire so we can understand the 'concept' that it will be painful beyond imagine.

Touching a flame only lasts for a second (or less) cause the pain causes your body to react from this pain and pull away before the real pain can kick in from prolonged exposure to fire as damage is done.

Our soul will be 100% immersed in what is described as a lake of fire so we are given the image that this will be terrible. As bad as the description is in the Bible I feel the torment is much worse as our spirits/souls are separated from the only source of comfort... God.

Zorgblar
Feb 9th 2008, 01:13 PM
Here's my opinion, we aren't destroyed but separated from God after being tossed into this pit.

That's what i think happens in the lake of fire as well.But i can't find anything in the bible to back up that belife.

Kahtar
Feb 9th 2008, 02:31 PM
Isaiah 66:23-24
(23) And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43-48
(43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
(48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Zorgblar
Feb 9th 2008, 02:38 PM
Isaiah 66:23-24
(23) And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43-48
(43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
(48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


These passages are talking about HELL.I want to know if there is any bible verses that say directly if we people get destroyed in the lake of fire or if they are just tormented forever and ever.

EarlyCall
Feb 9th 2008, 02:47 PM
Revelation 20:10

Zorgblar
Feb 9th 2008, 03:05 PM
Revelation 20:10

That just talks about about the devil and the false prophet and the beast being tormented for ever and ever.It says nothing about what happens to the people cast into the lake of fire.

EarlyCall
Feb 9th 2008, 04:02 PM
That just talks about about the devil and the false prophet and the beast being tormented for ever and ever.It says nothing about what happens to the people cast into the lake of fire.

The beast and the false prophet are people. There are other scriptures as well. Read Revelation. The whole thing.

Zorgblar
Feb 9th 2008, 04:13 PM
The beast and the false prophet are people. There are other scriptures as well. Read Revelation. The whole thing.

Ok i will do that.And i guess if the false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire and they are human beings and they get tormented forever and ever that might include the unsaved as well.

EarlyCall
Feb 9th 2008, 04:24 PM
It does. The difference though here between these two and others is that they are cast alive into this place of eternal torment.

Also take a look at chapter 14:9-11 in Revelation where it speaks to those taking the mark of the beast specifically.

It is the same for all the unsaved.

Zorgblar
Feb 9th 2008, 04:25 PM
Also take a look at chapter 14:9-11 in Revelation.

Ok i will take a look at that as well.

markedward
Feb 10th 2008, 01:52 AM
These passages are talking about HELL.I want to know if there is any bible verses that say directly if we people get destroyed in the lake of fire or if they are just tormented forever and ever."Hell" is the lake of fire.

Our English translations don't often note it, but the original Greek refers to two places, hades, and gehenna. Anytime Jesus spoke of gehenna, He spoke of it as eternal fire. Gehenna is the lake of fire.

Saved7
Feb 10th 2008, 05:08 AM
In the lake of fire are you tormented forever and ever or destoryed?Because i have never found any verses that say anything like"And the wicked were completely destoryed in the lake of fire" or "And the wicked were tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire".


Well, I figure if hell is a place of torment, and even HELL gets cast into the lake of fire, then even hell and all that are in it will be destroyed. It is my personal belief that the lake of fire is a place of destruction for all, except that the devil, the false prophet and the beast will suffer in the lake of fire forever. Those are the only ones I see listed as suffering forever.

My heart's Desire
Feb 10th 2008, 05:40 AM
Isaiah 66:23-24
(23) And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43-48
(43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
(48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Exactly. Also, it is for that reason that I believe Jesus warned people about being separated from Him and where they would be. If Jesus warned people about it then I believe we should also. If Jesus warns about it then to me He is giving people an incentive (if that's a good word for it) to believe and be saved. If people ceased to exist in the lake of fire, what is the incentive to some to avoid it?
I knew someone once like that. I assume they may have been unsaved and they told me that they didn't fear death because one only ceases to exist. This person didn't want to hear about Jesus and being saved from hell.

Zorgblar
Feb 10th 2008, 10:56 AM
"Hell" is the lake of fire.

If hell IS the lake of fire then why does it say in revelation that hell is tossed INTO the lake of fire?:confused

Zorgblar
Feb 10th 2008, 03:51 PM
Well, I figure if hell is a place of torment, and even HELL gets cast into the lake of fire, then even hell and all that are in it will be destroyed. It is my personal belief that the lake of fire is a place of destruction for all, except that the devil, the false prophet and the beast will suffer in the lake of fire forever. Those are the only ones I see listed as suffering forever.

Your right about the bible saying that the devil,the beast,and the false prophet all get tormented forever and ever.But as for the the unsaved and all the angels that follwed the devil it's not 100% clear what their fate is.

divaD
Feb 10th 2008, 05:38 PM
Your right about the bible saying that the devil,the beast,and the false prophet all get tormented forever and ever.But as for the the unsaved and all the angels that follwed the devil it's not 100% clear what their fate is.



Zorgblar, what you'll discover by asking your questions, is that those that hold to endless torment can't backup what they claim they believe.

1 Corinthians 15:24 *Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 *For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 *The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.



Revelation 20:13 *And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 *And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 *And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Something else one needs to keep in mind. From the time that satan was created, satan has not died. In Revelation 20:14 this is called the 2nd death. Clearly this puts the fate of satan and the fate of man on seperate terms. Just like the 2nd death can't apply to satan here, because he has never even died once, let alone twice, neither can Rev 20:10 apply to man there. Why would God make man suffer the same fate of being tormented forever as satan, when no man has ever lived as long as satan? Does that sound like a fair God? For all we know, satan could have been created billions of years before man, and chose to exalt himself above God billions of years ago. No man has ever lived a century, and many die very young, even in their teens. So they deserve the same pushiment as satan? I don't think so, and I don't believe so. Any truly Spirit filled Christian shouldn't believe so either.

Kahtar
Feb 10th 2008, 07:52 PM
No man has ever lived a century.......:eek:In my community there are several people who are older than 100. Not to mention of course Adam who lived for over 9 centuries. Noah was 6 centuries old when he entered the ark, and was still living at the birth of Abraham.

Of course that is not the point of this thread, nor of your post, really. Just thought I'd toss out that little correction.;)

Mograce2U
Feb 10th 2008, 08:43 PM
My musings on this subject go like this:

There are 2 realms in existence: one that is spiritual and eternal, and the one that is earthly and temporary - and the latter is the only one we can see with our eyes. At the death of our body ("our" here is not including Christians), the soul is released into the spiritual realm but taken into a partitioned place called Hades, aka the pit, abyss, or grave.

While death is in the world because of sin; the grave and Satan who gets his power from it, still exist. But once the resurrection of all the dead is accomplished and hades is emptied and death has no more earthly purpose, nor the devil who ruled that realm; then the lake of fire is the partitioned off place which is kept separate from the eternal kingdom of God for the dwelling place of those who are now eternally "dead". So in this world there is hell but in that world is the lake of fire. One temporary and one eternal, when the temporary is finished and all beings are present in eternity.

In this world the presence of God is known in all that He has created, for even the wicked can enjoy the sun that shines and the rain that falls. But in the eternal realm no earthly things remain - no sun shines and no rain falls. That world is lit by the glory of God whose lamp is Christ. To be separated from God's glory in that realm is to be in utter darkness and the judgment that is upon those who go there is forever - since that is what eternal means. In this lake of fire (fire of eternal judgment?) will dwell Satan and his demons and death and the grave which held the wicked. IOW only a "living" death remains for the wicked, for ever. I try not to think of zombies (from an old movie with Catherine Denueve & David Bowie), but that is what it seems it might be like to me.

Satan will then have only this lake in which to rule and his subjects will dwell under him - and all those that despised the goodness of God in this life will know the reality of the choice they made when they get what they desired (no God). And get to meet the god who they did not know was whom they served instead! And it seems likely to me that sin will remain upon those who have not been forgiven as they are wholly given over to it. In a prison with murderers, etc. whose master is the embodiment of all that is evil.

Since God is the One who gives life, it seems necessary to know He does not take that life away. But where it will be spent in eternity is certainly His choice to make!

divaD
Feb 10th 2008, 10:21 PM
:eek:In my community there are several people who are older than 100. Not to mention of course Adam who lived for over 9 centuries. Noah was 6 centuries old when he entered the ark, and was still living at the birth of Abraham.

Of course that is not the point of this thread, nor of your post, really. Just thought I'd toss out that little correction.;)



You are correct. I meant to say no man has ever lived a millenium. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. My wife's grandfather lived to be 102. So I have no idea why I said century when I meant millenium.

My heart's Desire
Feb 11th 2008, 05:55 AM
Zorgblar, what you'll discover by asking your questions, is that those that hold to endless torment can't backup what they claim they believe.
Why would God make man suffer the same fate of being tormented forever as satan, when no man has ever lived as long as satan? Does that sound like a fair God? For all we know, satan could have been created billions of years before man, and chose to exalt himself above God billions of years ago.

No man has ever lived a century, and many die very young, even in their teens. So they deserve the same pushiment as satan? I don't think so, and I don't believe so. Any truly Spirit filled Christian shouldn't believe so either.
Actually, using that angle though, then why don't God save every living being so they don't have to face the same fate as Satan at all? Before Salvation, do we not all exalt ourselves also?

divaD
Feb 11th 2008, 03:05 PM
Actually, using that angle though, then why don't God save every living being so they don't have to face the same fate as Satan at all? Before Salvation, do we not all exalt ourselves also?



This is just my opinion. It's the Lord's kingdom. He has certain guidelines that must be followed to enter the kingdom. One of them being, to enter the kingdom, one must honor and love the Son. Let's face it, not everyone honors nor loves the Son. Some even believe they can bypass the Son and still get into the kingdom of God. And many don't even want into the kingdom.

So, how can God save these? They chose their own fates.
The Lord is not going to force anyone into His kingdom, nor is He going to keep anyone out that truly desires to be there because they truly love Him. The Lord has no choice but to destroy these souls that don't want anything to do with His kingdom.

My dad remarried 40 some yrs ago, and started another family. With his present wife, his new family consisted of 3 sons and 1 daughter. 2 of his sons are no longer with us.
One killed himself when he was 20, the other one at the age of 25 got ran over by a semi truck when he was trying to cross the interstate. Neither one of these boys were Christians. Now I'm supposed to believe that God is going to torment these without end in hellfire? I just don't believe that. God will have no choice but to destroy them in the lake of fire come judgment day. That's what my Bible teaches. It doesn't say anything about tormenting them forever.

What I find interesting, I can take verses such as Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:12-15, and show that they are unrelated to one another, yet no one wants to acknowledge that nor comment on it. Most people that teach endless torment, use Revelation 20:10 to prove their case. I just clearly provided proof in my prev post that these verses are showing different judgments and different fates.

satan's fate is to be tormented forever, man's fate is to be destroyed, the 2nd death.

Think back to the garden for a moment. God had just created man, and there's a serpent in the garden. That tells me that the serpent was already in a fallen state before God created man, and that God was going to use man to destroy the serpent, by way of Christ.

1 John 3:8 *He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


I could go more into this, but I'll be getting way off subject to do so.

kjw47
Feb 11th 2008, 06:46 PM
In the lake of fire are you tormented forever and ever or destoryed?Because i have never found any verses that say anything like"And the wicked were completely destoryed in the lake of fire" or "And the wicked were tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire". Hi Friend, Fire destroys eternally. Hades will be cast into the lake of fire, it cannot suffer, but can be destroyed eternally. As far as flesh goes, it will be eternally cut off from God by being eternally destroyed. God would never create a real hell, it is a teaching straight from satan. The greek word hades, hebrew word Sheol ( both translate, hell ) The real meanings of those two words are--- The common grave of mankind. Not a firey place of eternal torment.

My heart's Desire
Feb 11th 2008, 07:29 PM
This is just my opinion. It's the Lord's kingdom. He has certain guidelines that must be followed to enter the kingdom. One of them being, to enter the kingdom, one must honor and love the Son. Let's face it, not everyone honors nor loves the Son. Some even believe they can bypass the Son and still get into the kingdom of God. And many don't even want into the kingdom.

So, how can God save these? They chose their own fates.
The Lord is not going to force anyone into His kingdom, nor is He going to keep anyone out that truly desires to be there because they truly love Him. The Lord has no choice but to destroy these souls that don't want anything to do with His kingdom.

My dad remarried 40 some yrs ago, and started another family. With his present wife, his new family consisted of 3 sons and 1 daughter. 2 of his sons are no longer with us.
One killed himself when he was 20, the other one at the age of 25 got ran over by a semi truck when he was trying to cross the interstate. Neither one of these boys were Christians. Now I'm supposed to believe that God is going to torment these without end in hellfire? I just don't believe that. God will have no choice but to destroy them in the lake of fire come judgment day. That's what my Bible teaches. It doesn't say anything about tormenting them forever.

What I find interesting, I can take verses such as Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:12-15, and show that they are unrelated to one another, yet no one wants to acknowledge that nor comment on it. Most people that teach endless torment, use Revelation 20:10 to prove their case. I just clearly provided proof in my prev post that these verses are showing different judgments and different fates.

satan's fate is to be tormented forever, man's fate is to be destroyed, the 2nd death.
(man's fate is punishment.)
Think back to the garden for a moment. God had just created man, and there's a serpent in the garden. That tells me that the serpent was already in a fallen state before God created man, and that God was going to use man to destroy the serpent, by way of Christ.
(True,

1 John 3:8 *He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


I could go more into this, but I'll be getting way off subject to do so.
Yes, the only guideline for getting into heaven, or eternal life is to believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.
I'm pretty sure I'm not an universalist. I know that all will not be saved.
My point was though that the post I replied of your's seemed to put forth that God would be unfair to punish man in a lake of fire forever. I believe God to be not only fair but just.

On the only hand, for sake of discussion, the Word does say that God is a consuming fire.

kjw47
Feb 14th 2008, 01:50 AM
Yes, the only guideline for getting into heaven, or eternal life is to believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.
I'm pretty sure I'm not an universalist. I know that all will not be saved.
My point was though that the post I replied of your's seemed to put forth that God would be unfair to punish man in a lake of fire forever. I believe God to be not only fair but just.

On the only hand, for sake of discussion, the Word does say that God is a consuming fire. Hi friend, Jesus teaches the opposite of your first sentence. At Matt 7- 21-23 These believed on the Lord Jesus. Yet Jesus never knew them.

My heart's Desire
Feb 14th 2008, 09:35 PM
Hi friend, Jesus teaches the opposite of your first sentence. At Matt 7- 21-23 These believed on the Lord Jesus. Yet Jesus never knew them.
Actually, Jesus did teach Salvation is in Him alone, belief and trust. Israel did not believe that He was who he said he was, which is the whole basis for believing in the salvation that He brought for us. Those who Jesus said He never knew them were trusting in their works. The will of the Father is to believe in the One whom He sent which is Jesus Christ.

EarlyCall
Feb 16th 2008, 12:01 PM
I noticed it said in one post above that those claiming eternal torment cannot back up what they claim. In chapter 14 of Revelation it says that those who worship the beast will be tormented with burning sulfur and that the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.

We know that most people in the earth will worship the beast.

How does forever and ever translate into something short of forever and ever or something short of never ending?

Now it seems to me that this is clear enough. The scripture clearly says that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is nothing symbolic or allegorical about that. It is not code for something else. It is not God kidding around. It is not pretend nor make-believe. It is exactly what it is.

Zorgblar
Feb 16th 2008, 12:57 PM
I was talking to my mom about what she thinks happens inthe lake of fire and if she thiinks when people's spirits are tossed in if they are keep alive or just simply wiped out and she said they are probably keep alive because one of God's commandments is not to kill people and if he destoryed peoples's spirits when he tossed them into the lake of fire he would kinda be breaking his own rule.

skypair
Feb 16th 2008, 01:15 PM
Zorgie...

My understanding is there are 3 places of torment:

1) Sheol/gehenna/hades/the pit which are here on the earth for the lost dead of our time. In Luke, Jesus tells us about it as the lower part of where the saints went (though in His resurrection, the saints souls were all evacuated to heaven!).

2) During the MK, there will be a place outside Jerusalem for the dead bodies of those who rebel against Jesus the King. There it is said "Their worm never dies" and "we look upon their dead carcasses." Indeed, for the duration of the MK, many will be added there each day feeding the worms.

3) Then in eternity there is this "lake of fire." But before it, all the lost are gathered from the grave, given bodies in which to be judged, and appear before the GWT. From there, their bodies die the 2nd death (they will not exist physically in eternity) and their souls and spirits go to that LoF. So my understanding of the excruciating torment is that it is spiritual and endless.

skypair

divaD
Feb 16th 2008, 04:33 PM
I noticed it said in one post above that those claiming eternal torment cannot back up what they claim. In chapter 14 of Revelation it says that those who worship the beast will be tormented with burning sulfur and that the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.

We know that most people in the earth will worship the beast.

How does forever and ever translate into something short of forever and ever or something short of never ending?

Now it seems to me that this is clear enough. The scripture clearly says that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is nothing symbolic or allegorical about that. It is not code for something else. It is not God kidding around. It is not pretend nor make-believe. It is exactly what it is.




Actually I've addressed Rev 14 elsewhere. If one reads that in context without taking it out of context, one can see that these are being tormented right here on earth, not in the lake of fire. They have no rest day or night because they are drinking of the wine of the wrath of God. Where? Right here on earth. It's pretty obvious they are being tormented by this. We're talking about the wrath of God here, on those that worship the beast and his image. Look at verse 9 and 10.

9 *And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 *The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Now look at verse 11.


11 *And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Where did a lake of fire, as the one in Rev 20, come from out of the clear blue sky?
There is no mention of that lake of fire anywhere in this chapter.

Now imagine those in verses 9 and 10. Can't you honestly say that the smoke of their torment would ascendeth up forever and ever? Why? Because verse 10 says that they are being tormented with fire and brimstone. Now with that in mind, do you think anyone would have rest day or night? How could they have rest day or night, when they're being tormented by the wrath of God continually? This is what Rev ch 14 is teaching, it's not teaching about the lake of fire that is found in Rev 20.

hillbilly dave
Feb 16th 2008, 06:49 PM
If we look at Mark 15:34 When Jesus felt the seperation from God The Father, And cried My God why have you forsaken me... we can guess that being seperate from God is the worst. Even in Matthew 26:39 Jesus knew the seperation was coming and prayed that God would remove this from him. Thankfully Jesus knew his mission and carried out for what hope would any of have had if he had not.

EarlyCall
Feb 16th 2008, 10:06 PM
Actually I've addressed Rev 14 elsewhere. If one reads that in context without taking it out of context, one can see that these are being tormented right here on earth, not in the lake of fire. They have no rest day or night because they are drinking of the wine of the wrath of God. Where? Right here on earth. It's pretty obvious they are being tormented by this. We're talking about the wrath of God here, on those that worship the beast and his image. Look at verse 9 and 10.

9 *And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 *The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Now look at verse 11.


11 *And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Where did a lake of fire, as the one in Rev 20, come from out of the clear blue sky?
There is no mention of that lake of fire anywhere in this chapter.

Now imagine those in verses 9 and 10. Can't you honestly say that the smoke of their torment would ascendeth up forever and ever? Why? Because verse 10 says that they are being tormented with fire and brimstone. Now with that in mind, do you think anyone would have rest day or night? How could they have rest day or night, when they're being tormented by the wrath of God continually? This is what Rev ch 14 is teaching, it's not teaching about the lake of fire that is found in Rev 20.

I've highlighted something above that you've said. Do I understand correctly then that you are claiming these people never die but go on living right here on earth being tormented forever and ever? The verse does say it is forever and ever.

And while true it doesn't say lake of fire, I think it an easier thing to presume that than to presume it is not and rather it is right here on earth as you say.

Can you explain then to me how they live forever and ever right here on earth and never die?

I'm very short on time right now, but look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Athanasius
Feb 16th 2008, 10:09 PM
You are correct. I meant to say no man has ever lived a millenium. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. My wife's grandfather lived to be 102. So I have no idea why I said century when I meant millenium.

Come on, Adam was only short a millennium by 70 years.

divaD
Feb 16th 2008, 11:11 PM
I've highlighted something above that you've said. Do I understand correctly then that you are claiming these people never die but go on living right here on earth being tormented forever and ever? The verse does say it is forever and ever.

And while true it doesn't say lake of fire, I think it an easier thing to presume that than to presume it is not and rather it is right here on earth as you say.

Can you explain then to me how they live forever and ever right here on earth and never die?

I'm very short on time right now, but look forward to hearing what you have to say.



I take it that you understand figures of speech. If I were to say, "it's going to take me forever to get this job done that I'm trying to do", am I being literal?

The Bible uses figures of speech, such as these, they can be found all thoughout the Bible, where the interpretation can't possibly be taken as literal. Let me see if I can illustrate what I mean using these verses in Rev 14. I will interpret these literally to show that it is not the correct interpretation.


Revelation 14:10 *The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 *And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


From observing context, these verses are related to one another. So if one is to take literally, that in verse 11, these are being tormented day and night forever and ever, then one also has to take literally, that these will be tormented forever in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Wouldn't you agree that the holy angels, and the Lamb, would have better things to do forever than being in the presence of those being tormented forever?

While their torment is to be taken literally, the duration is only in relation to when it's finally over.

Read the chapters following Rev 14, and look at all of the plagues being poured out on these that worship the beast and his image. It's pretty apparent from the text that there is no rest for them day nor night. There is no relief for them until it's finished and they die.

Revelation 16:8 *And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.


Do you think you could find any rest if the above were happening to you? This is just one of the vials poured out, just to make a point. Imagine having to endure all of these vials. You would literally have no rest day nor night while you were suffering from these vials. But you wouldn't literally have no rest day nor night forever and ever, because this is happening on earth, not in the lake of fire.



Can you explain then to me how they live forever and ever right here on earth and never die?


No I can't, because I'm not claiming these won't die.

Clifton
Feb 17th 2008, 12:04 AM
Revelation 16:8 *And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Fascinating. "Upon the sun"? And yet, "where" does 16:1 say to pour out the seven bowls?:hmm:

(KJVR) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Looking at 16:8 and 16:17, it appears a couple of angels decided to pour elsewhere. Still has an "impact" on the Earth though. Even so, it makes one to think that 16:1 may have been written differently, at least, without the clause "into/in/on/unto/upon the Earth".

Anyway, you believe the unrepentants / lost will perish on "this" Earth, yes? I have read texts to that effect before - this is one of those areas I sit and watch:). Perhaps here is something in accord (with 'the hell on earth' aspect) to your belief:

“While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.” (Genesis 8:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Genesis&chapter=8&verse=22) ALT)

A Bible translator (http://a-voice.org/main/terafirm.htm) notes in reference to verses like this (later noting 2 Peter 3:7-13 and other verses):


Such an expression suggests that at some point in time, there will be an 'end'. Those are the kind of words "while" and "remain" are. "While" is some period of time; which, depending on the context, its length may be specified or not (for this earth, it's on the order of 7000 years). But then, when the period of time "while" is concluded, and it stops "remaining", that is its 'end'.
I'll sit and watch.;)

Later.

Darren
Feb 17th 2008, 12:09 AM
let's breakdown the verses in question.


Rev 20:11 ∂ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

this verse is immediately following the FINAL judgement placed on the devil, beast, and false prophet. they are cast into eternal torment in the "lake of fire".


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

after judgeing the mastermind(s) behind the fall of man and the great rebellion, god must judge all those who never repented and gave their hearts to him. the books of deeds were opened and it will show that all the dead have broke god's law. the book of life will be opened to see if they have been excused from being a lawbreaker by the blood of the lamb. and for all of these, sadly, they are not found in the lamb's book of life.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

the sea (greek:"thalassa" is a wonderful metaphor for numerous things that would require hours of discourse. but in this case, we found out later, that this sea shall no longer be included in the new earth.

to continue, we the dead are extracted from "hell". all people have been previously judged upon their death from existence on earth. this is the first death. in death, their soul is translated to "hades" or "hell" (as it is translated into english), where they remain until the great white throne judgement. this "hell" or "hades" as it is in greek is not eternal, and at one time was divided by a great gulf and on the opposing side of this gulf was paradise or abraham's busom. when jesus died, he took those kept in paradise with him as he ascended.(he took captivity captive.) of course, you know from the story of the rich man and lazarus and the thief on the cross, that paradise was the place that believers' souls went until jesus' ascension.

so from "hell" beter translated as "hades", all the souls are brought before christ for judging.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

the places of seperation and remorse are cast into eternal fire and judgement. this is the second death. as it will be the second time these poor souls will be rejected from the presence of god.


Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

and all those who once resided in "hell" or better "hades", who of course are not found in the lamb's book of life, are now cast into the same pit with satan and his minion.


it is unfortunate, that in english the greek words for the eternal fire of judgement, gehenna, is translated as "hell" along with the temporary holding place of souls, hades.

divaD
Feb 17th 2008, 01:17 AM
Anyway, you believe the unrepentants / lost will perish on "this" Earth, yes? I have read texts to that effect before - this is one
of those areas I sit and watch. Perhaps here is something in accord (with 'the hell on earth' aspect) to your belief:


Clifton, I don't believe in a hell on earth. And No, I don't believe the unrepentants / lost will perish on this earth(as in final judgement), I believe they will perish in the lake of fire, as it is written in Rev 20, the 2nd death.

All I'm trying to show is that Rev 14 is unrelated to the lake of fire in Rev 20. Try reading Revelation chs 14 thru ch 19 in parallel with Ezekiel chs 38 and 39. You'll see that Ez 38 and 39 are a more detailed look of Rev chs 14-19.

Clifton
Feb 17th 2008, 01:34 AM
Clifton, I don't believe in a hell on earth. And No, I don't believe the unrepentants / lost will perish on this earth(as in final judgement), I believe they will perish in the lake of fire, as it is written in Rev 20, the 2nd death.

All I'm trying to show is that Rev 14 is unrelated to the lake of fire in Rev 20. Try reading Revelation chs 14 thru ch 19 in parallel with Ezekiel chs 38 and 39. You'll see that Ez 38 and 39 are a more detailed look of Rev chs 14-19.


Thanks for the info;).

Since 2005, I've been occasionally working on a project based on several years of "works" from "others" in the present and past ages on the Book Of Revelation, giving the text in a more proper sequence (the last 3 chapters were the worst of disorders) and relegating interpolations to footnotes and endnotes. The DSS Revelation (http://clifton-hodges.com/faith/Revelation_Q_Columns.pdf) caused a setback for me in this project, because it appears to contain some of the interpolations in the Bible Versions, which was not known to scholars 100 years ago. The DSS version of Revelation looks like a "base text" (starting point) for the Bible Versions. Nonetheless, in regards to the project I am working on, "Jap Consecution", all that is left now is "summary introductions" to be inserted here and there, and some proofreading (it mostly used the public domain WEB Translation).

I'll look at Ezekiel 38 & 39 again. I remember chap. 38 a little.

Thanks again.:)

EarlyCall
Feb 17th 2008, 06:50 AM
I take it that you understand figures of speech. If I were to say, "it's going to take me forever to get this job done that I'm trying to do", am I being literal?

The Bible uses figures of speech, such as these, they can be found all thoughout the Bible, where the interpretation can't possibly be taken as literal. Let me see if I can illustrate what I mean using these verses in Rev 14. I will interpret these literally to show that it is not the correct interpretation.


Revelation 14:10 *The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 *And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


From observing context, these verses are related to one another. So if one is to take literally, that in verse 11, these are being tormented day and night forever and ever, then one also has to take literally, that these will be tormented forever in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Wouldn't you agree that the holy angels, and the Lamb, would have better things to do forever than being in the presence of those being tormented forever?

While their torment is to be taken literally, the duration is only in relation to when it's finally over.

Read the chapters following Rev 14, and look at all of the plagues being poured out on these that worship the beast and his image. It's pretty apparent from the text that there is no rest for them day nor night. There is no relief for them until it's finished and they die.

Revelation 16:8 *And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.


Do you think you could find any rest if the above were happening to you? This is just one of the vials poured out, just to make a point. Imagine having to endure all of these vials. You would literally have no rest day nor night while you were suffering from these vials. But you wouldn't literally have no rest day nor night forever and ever, because this is happening on earth, not in the lake of fire.





No I can't, because I'm not claiming these won't die.


You know, I appreciate the time you took to respond, but all I wanted was an explanation. God said forever and ever. The 'and ever' is obvious emphasis to forever. What I want you to tell me is nothing more than what God really meant and most importantly, why didn't He say what He meant insted of embellishing it as He did - according to you.

I'll leave it go at that and we'll just have to disagree, which I have no problem with.

Carmy
Feb 17th 2008, 08:21 AM
Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

I would say that this scripture makes one thing clear for sure. I won't argue whether hell is the same as the lake of fire for one reason only. That is, that only God knows the definite, absolute answers and our opinions on this matter won't change that.

However, I do think that this scripture makes it clear that if you are not saved, you will end up in a place that you definitely DO NOT want to be. The other scriptures given goes with this to use for witnessing to others. My best friend is a Jehovah's witness, and she believes the body only dies after death. I would say that scripture proves other wise. This scripture is the clearest I can find that directly says, if your name isn't in the book of life, you will be cast into the lake of fire and we have already seen what that means.

Maybe hell is just a place that people go to first, maybe it's the same but either way, those in hell will end up in the lake of fire.

EarlyCall
Feb 17th 2008, 02:56 PM
Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

I would say that this scripture makes one thing clear for sure. I won't argue whether hell is the same as the lake of fire for one reason only. That is, that only God knows the definite, absolute answers and our opinions on this matter won't change that.

However, I do think that this scripture makes it clear that if you are not saved, you will end up in a place that you definitely DO NOT want to be. The other scriptures given goes with this to use for witnessing to others. My best friend is a Jehovah's witness, and she believes the body only dies after death. I would say that scripture proves other wise. This scripture is the clearest I can find that directly says, if your name isn't in the book of life, you will be cast into the lake of fire and we have already seen what that means.

Maybe hell is just a place that people go to first, maybe it's the same but either way, those in hell will end up in the lake of fire.


Yes, you're right. The thing is, for some long time, particularly in the US, people have come to recognize the word hell to mean the lake of fire where you burn forever and ever.

Arguments over the word hell and so on only distract from the point, and I think that on purpose, in order to argue against an eternal place of torment for the unsaved and that this place is a place of fire.

Bottom line then is the verse you've given here and the others further support it.

I think you've said it well and sufficiently. :)

divaD
Feb 17th 2008, 03:16 PM
Maybe hell is just a place that people go to first, maybe it's the same but either way, those in hell will end up in the lake of
fire.


Yes they do. But the question is, do they burn forever and ever
without end? It does not state this anywhere in Scripture about humans. That human would have to be immortal in order to be tormented forever, which violates what Scripture plainly states in Rev 20, which calls this the 2nd death. A death where no one eventually dies makes about as much sense as one who lives forever but eventually dies. Those with everlasting life can never die. Those with everlasting death can never live forever.
That's the way it works. To imply otherwise does not compute.

Mograce2U
Feb 17th 2008, 03:46 PM
Yes they do. But the question is, do they burn forever and ever
without end? It does not state this anywhere in Scripture about humans. That human would have to be immortal in order to be tormented forever, which violates what Scripture plainly states in Rev 20, which calls this the 2nd death. A death where no one eventually dies makes about as much sense as one who lives forever but eventually dies. Those with everlasting life can never die. Those with everlasting death can never live forever.
That's the way it works. To imply otherwise does not compute.
If death in this life brings one to the end of life in this realm so that one cannot be here any longer; then death in the spiritual realm is to be separated from what allows one to "live" there too. That is the purpose for the lake of fire - whatever it may be. To separate those forever from the life of God they rejected.

Carmy
Feb 17th 2008, 10:43 PM
Diva, I think I understand what you're asking, so I'll try to answer once again. I always look at the scriptures that talk about living with God for eternity vs. being thrown into the lake of fire, hell, whatever people choose to call it. See, it's easy to try and justify that people die and it's over and that's it if they don't choose the path Jesus laid before us. However, the bible mentions in many places (especially in Matt):
Matt 13:42
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

It's easy to look at this verse and think....well ok, but maybe it won't last forever. I don't care if it lasts for a day, a week or eternity, I don't want to experience this torement at all. When you really think about it, do you? Sometimes I can't even stand it when I'm sick with a head cold or some injury yet this will be much worse. Illness doesn't last forever, but I certainly don't enjoy going through it. The same is true here.

However, I believe that it is for eternity because I believe the soul lives forever. Otherwise, we wouldn't be reading about spending eternity with Jesus. If we spend eternity with Jesus, who and what is to say that we won't spend eternity in the fire? The scripture isn't clear as to how long there will be torment, but it is clear that it's a process the non-believers go through.


Matt 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(KJV)

All I know for sure is that this scripture and others make it clear to me that there will be some sort of torment and fire for those that turn from the Lord.

Hope this helps.

Carmela

divaD
Feb 18th 2008, 12:07 AM
Diva, I think I understand what you're asking, so I'll try to answer once again. I always look at the scriptures that talk about living with God for eternity vs. being thrown into the lake of fire, hell, whatever people choose to call it. See, it's easy to try and justify that people die and it's over and that's it if they don't choose the path Jesus laid before us. However, the bible mentions in many places (especially in Matt):
Matt 13:42
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

It's easy to look at this verse and think....well ok, but maybe it won't last forever. I don't care if it lasts for a day, a week or eternity, I don't want to experience this torement at all. When you really think about it, do you? Sometimes I can't even stand it when I'm sick with a head cold or some injury yet this will be much worse. Illness doesn't last forever, but I certainly don't enjoy going through it. The same is true here.

However, I believe that it is for eternity because I believe the soul lives forever. Otherwise, we wouldn't be reading about spending eternity with Jesus. If we spend eternity with Jesus, who and what is to say that we won't spend eternity in the fire? The scripture isn't clear as to how long there will be torment, but it is clear that it's a process the non-believers go through.


Matt 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(KJV)

All I know for sure is that this scripture and others make it clear to me that there will be some sort of torment and fire for those that turn from the Lord.

Hope this helps.

Carmela




Carmy, I still have a fear of the lake of fire. I don't want to end up there. But whoever ends up there won't be tormented forever.

You seem to suggest that everyone has an immortal soul. That's not taught anywhere in the Bible. What is taught in the Bible is that the tree of life is what gives everlasting life, and that Christ is the way back to the tree of life. Unless one eats from the tree of life, one can't live forever.

Genesis 3:22 *And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 *Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 *So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


As you can see, it's those that eat of the tree of life that live forever. As you can also see from these verses, God forbidded access to this tree after man fell. And since man was denied access to the tree of life, no man can regain access to it without Christ. Immortality is impossible without partaking of the tree of life.


Revelation 22:14 *Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Christ is the way back to the tree of life. We now have access to the tree of life that we lost access to in the garden. Only those that do His commandments have right to the tree of life.
With that in mind, it's impossible for those cast in the lake of to be tormented forever. They would have to be immortal, there's no way getting around that. And since Scripture clearly teaches, that it's only those that do His commandments, that have access to the tree of life, then this can only mean that all others are mortal, and will die of the 2nd death.


Where is the tree of life?

Revelation 22:1 *And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 *In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Zorgblar
Feb 18th 2008, 12:23 AM
Carmy, I still have a fear of the lake of fire. I don't want to end up there. But whoever ends up there won't be tormented forever.

You seem to suggest that everyone has an immortal soul. That's not taught anywhere in the Bible. What is taught in the Bible is that the tree of life is what gives everlasting life, and that Christ is the way back to the tree of life. Unless one eats from the tree of life, one can't live forever.

Genesis 3:22 *And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 *Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 *So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


As you can see, it's those that eat of the tree of life that live forever. As you can also see from these verses, God forbidded access to this tree after man fell. And since man was denied access to the tree of life, no man can regain access to it without Christ. Immortality is impossible without partaking of the tree of life.


Revelation 22:14 *Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Christ is the way back to the tree of life. We now have access to the tree of life that we lost access to in the garden. Only those that do His commandments have right to the tree of life.
With that in mind, it's impossible for those cast in the lake of to be tormented forever. They would have to be immortal, there's no way getting around that. And since Scripture clearly teaches, that it's only those that do His commandments, that have access to the tree of life, then this can only mean that all others are mortal, and will die of the 2nd death.


Where is the tree of life?

Revelation 22:1 *And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 *In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

You say the tree of life makes people live forever right?I maybe wrong but i think the reason God didn't want adam and eve to eat from the tree of life is because it would make their bodies live forever not their spirits.But that's just me and what i think.:)

kjw47
Feb 18th 2008, 12:42 AM
Actually, Jesus did teach Salvation is in Him alone, belief and trust. Israel did not believe that He was who he said he was, which is the whole basis for believing in the salvation that He brought for us. Those who Jesus said He never knew them were trusting in their works. The will of the Father is to believe in the One whom He sent which is Jesus Christ. Hi Friend, If you read the passages, Jesus is talking to christians,( who were told they were saved.) Only christians do powerful works in Jesus name. Yes Gods will is for us to believe in the one he sent, but it go,s much farther than that on the humans side. There are many steps it takes to be a real christian and actually be saved. Many are on the earth who believe in that one passage, and most likely will here those words from Jesus on judgement day. We surely dont want to hear Jesus tell us he never knew us on judgement day. I believe they did powerful works out of a powerful love for Jesus.

kjw47
Feb 18th 2008, 12:47 AM
I noticed it said in one post above that those claiming eternal torment cannot back up what they claim. In chapter 14 of Revelation it says that those who worship the beast will be tormented with burning sulfur and that the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.

We know that most people in the earth will worship the beast.

How does forever and ever translate into something short of forever and ever or something short of never ending?

Now it seems to me that this is clear enough. The scripture clearly says that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is nothing symbolic or allegorical about that. It is not code for something else. It is not God kidding around. It is not pretend nor make-believe. It is exactly what it is. Have no fear Friend, God is a God of Justice, Love, Wisdom, Power. Thus, since he is a God of Justice he would never create a real hell with eternal torment. For 70-90 years of sin God would not sentence a lifeform to eternal torment. Its symbolism. T he greek word hades and the hebrew word sheol= hell. The translation of both those words is-- The common grave of mankind-- not a firey place of eternal torment.

divaD
Feb 18th 2008, 01:28 AM
You say the tree of life makes people live forever right?I maybe wrong but i think the reason God didn't want adam and eve to eat from the tree of life is because it would make their bodies live forever not their spirits.But that's just me and what i think.:)



If that were true, then what's the purpose of the tree of life now? If it meant immortality of this flesh body then, it would mean immortality of this flesh body now. And since the latter is not true, neither can the former be. The tree of life couldn't be immortality of the flesh in Genesis, but be immortality of the spirit in the book of Revelation. There is no such thing as flesh and blood immortality, and there never was, nor was there ever going to be.

The Bible states that flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God. Also take note, God put soul and spirit in man, He did this before man fell. What would be the purpose of that, if God knew that when and if man ate from the tree of life, that man would live forever in the flesh body he was formed in? Why would man need soul and spirit at that point?

Zorgblar
Feb 18th 2008, 01:43 AM
If that were true, then what's the purpose of the tree of life now? If it meant immortality of this flesh body then, it would mean immortality of this flesh body now. And since the latter is not true, neither can the former be. The tree of life couldn't be immortality of the flesh in Genesis, but be immortality of the spirit in the book of Revelation. There is no such thing as flesh and blood immortality, and there never was, nor was there ever going to be.

The Bible states that flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God. Also take note, God put soul and spirit in man, He did this before man fell. What would be the purpose of that, if God knew that when and if man ate from the tree of life, that man would live forever in the flesh body he was formed in? Why would man need soul and spirit at that point?

You maybe right.But the question still comes up of why would God be worried of adam and eve's SPIRITS being made eternal?Even if their spirits were eternal their bodies would still die and they would still have to pass on into the afterlife right?But if their BODIES were made eternal by eating from the tree of live THAT would be a problem!Do you see what i am getting at?:)

Zorgblar
Feb 18th 2008, 01:53 AM
Genesis 3:22 *And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever





Notice that these verses don't say if it was man's spirit or body that would be made forever.So therefore since it's not directly stated which was which how do we know which one it was?

My heart's Desire
Feb 18th 2008, 05:20 AM
Hi Friend, If you read the passages, Jesus is talking to christians,( who were told they were saved.) Only christians do powerful works in Jesus name. Yes Gods will is for us to believe in the one he sent, but it go,s much farther than that on the humans side. There are many steps it takes to be a real christian and actually be saved. Many are on the earth who believe in that one passage, and most likely will here those words from Jesus on judgement day. We surely dont want to hear Jesus tell us he never knew us on judgement day. I believe they did powerful works out of a powerful love for Jesus.
Jesus said that His death, burial, and resurrection from the Cross was all it required for the Salvation of all those who believe. How many steps are you requiring?

brakelite
Feb 18th 2008, 06:52 AM
I agree.
Zorgblar, the answer is in the Bible. In fact the most popular verse in the entire word of God, the most quoted, is John 3:16. And in there you will find the answer.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Now look up the word perish in a good concordance. Do you believe what Jesus said, or what most of the replies to this thread say?

Regards
Brakelite

Zorgblar
Feb 18th 2008, 08:18 AM
I agree.
Zorgblar, the answer is in the Bible. In fact the most popular verse in the entire word of God, the most quoted, is John 3:16. And in there you will find the answer.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Now look up the word perish in a good concordance. Do you believe what Jesus said, or what most of the replies to this thread say?

Regards
Brakelite

That's only talking about the people who BELIEVE in God.I am askinf what happens to the people who DO NOT believe in God and he they get destoryed or not once they are cast into the lake of fire.

Carmy
Feb 18th 2008, 10:13 PM
Hi Diva. I just wanted to let you know that I'm not avoiding your post and will reply soon. I have been busy today and I'm on way out but I want to do a little more research before I reply.

I don't know if this applies right now, but when I was in bible school one day (no, I'm not a scholar or anything) the Lord showed me a vision. I was a tree planted by the river of life and the tree and ground all around was so green and beautiful. The vision I had was actually showing me that the Lord has me planted near the river of life and my roots were going really deep and my nourishment was coming from the Lord's river.

I bring this up only because I think that is what is most important while we are here on earth is to make sure that we are firmly planted in the ground near and drinking from the river of life.

I'm not saying it isn't important to worry about the rapture or hell, but I think it's more important to worry about the here and now. My goal each day is to do my best at becoming the best woman of God that I can be, at becoming more obedient to obey the Lord daily and seeking Him alone.

Like that tree, we need to be grounded in the Lord with roots that go deep so we don't become frail and die. Kind of like the seeds planted in different soils.

I want to look into this more so I try not to give poor advice though so I'll reply to your post either later this evening or tomorrow.

I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, but I don't understand why so many people spend a lot of their time trying to prove how long eternity is. The bible says to worry about today and let tomorrow worry about itself and that's what I try to do. To me, this topic doesn't really have anything to do with my daily walk because my job is to stay on this narrow path that I'm walking on and to lead others to the Lord so they too can be saved. Helping others find salvation is our mission. The Lord told us to go and spread the gospel. How much more the lord rejoices over one more person's soul that is saved. I have a feeling God isn't up there worrying about where the unsaved go. He is more worried about people finding eternal salvation.

Carmela

kjw47
Feb 19th 2008, 01:02 PM
Jesus said that His death, burial, and resurrection from the Cross was all it required for the Salvation of all those who believe. How many steps are you requiring? Hi Friend, Is not i who require anything it is Gods word that sets forth what is what. At John 17:3 Jesus said one must take in knowledge of the only true God( He was speaking of true knowledge not false knowledge.) then it must be applyed in everyday life. Repentence is a big requirement, baptism is a requirement. Listening to God and his son is a requirement. Like when Jesus said-- Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance from God. ( this means learning and applying ) To live by every utterance means learning Gods word in and out, it takes many years of hard study just to learn let alone apply. that is a small example.

threebigrocks
Feb 19th 2008, 02:25 PM
That's only talking about the people who BELIEVE in God.I am askinf what happens to the people who DO NOT believe in God and he they get destoryed or not once they are cast into the lake of fire.

No, the burning goes on forever.


We can agree that the soul goes on eternally, correct? Whether we are in heaven or hell, our soul goes on.

Matthew 13


40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.


No mention in this explination of the parable of anything being consumed, only burned and weeping and gnashing of teeth. If there is physical activity, there is no being consumed. It is eternal torment.

divaD
Feb 19th 2008, 06:42 PM
We can agree that the soul goes on eternally, correct? Whether we are in heaven or hell, our soul goes on.


Only if you can show in the Bible where it states all souls are immortal. Everyone's soul, not just believers.

Mark 8:36 *For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

How does one lose their own soul? Kind of hard to do that if the soul is being tormented forever. The verse didn't say..' and be a lost soul'...it said 'and lose his own soul'. Also, gain is the opposite of lose. So the rendering is correct, and it literally means to lose one's soul.

If you were to lose a hand, it would be forever lost to you. You could never get it back. If you were to lose your soul, you would no longer exist. How much clearer can it be? The only way to lose one's soul, that soul would have to die. And that's exactly what the Bible teaches about the soul that sinneth..it will die. And that's exactly what Rev 20 also teaches..it's the second death...the death of the soul.

My heart's Desire
Feb 19th 2008, 07:13 PM
To live by every utterance means learning Gods word in and out, it takes many years of hard study just to learn let alone apply. that is a small example.
So, you are saying man's effort saves him?

threebigrocks
Feb 19th 2008, 07:15 PM
Only if you can show in the Bible where it states all souls are immortal. Everyone's soul, not just believers.

Mark 8:36 *For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

How does one lose their own soul? Kind of hard to do that if the soul is being tormented forever. The verse didn't say..' and be a lost soul'...it said 'and lose his own soul'. Also, gain is the opposite of lose. So the rendering is correct, and it literally means to lose one's soul.

If you were to lose a hand, it would be forever lost to you. You could never get it back. If you were to lose your soul, you would no longer exist. How much clearer can it be? The only way to lose one's soul, that soul would have to die. And that's exactly what the Bible teaches about the soul that sinneth..it will die. And that's exactly what Rev 20 also teaches..it's the second death...the death of the soul.

We can gain salvation for our soul by the work on the cross, confessing with our mouth that Christ is Lord and walking in obedience which is pleasing to God. God is the keeper of our soul, if we are for Him we gain the salvation of our soul. If we are against Him we loose the salvation of our soul in giving ourselves over to satan.

At judgement, those who are against God have both body and spirit, the soul, thrown into hell to be tormented forever. FOREVER! If our soul dies, how is it to be tormented forever?

Thing is - we are dead to God. God is all, correct? Hell is like living death forever, dead to God. Just as we are alive in Christ and dead to sin, we can be alive to sin and dead to Christ. We can die now to self and once in body or we can die twice. Thing is - we know we are dead body and spirit and seperated from God with the second death. Otherwise, how would it be punnishment if one wasn't aware of it? Why fear, why be saved, why care about the true lover of your soul?

Carmy
Feb 20th 2008, 06:28 AM
Actually Diva, if you read the actual Greek it is actually saying (word for word translation): FOR-WHAT DOES IT BENEFIT A MAN TO GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD AND TO FORFEIT THE LIFE OF HIM? FOR-WHAT MAY GIVE A MAN IN EXCHANGE [FOR] THE LIFE OF HIM? The translation of the bible changes those words to say soul. What was really being said is this: For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and to forfeit their life? 37 Indeed, what can they give in return for their life?

The question is about choosing between life and death. They lose their life by choosing to follow the devil. The word soul isn't even in the actual Greek translation at all.

Carmy
Feb 20th 2008, 07:11 AM
Diva, I'm sorry this is long, but this is what I have come up with so far on the soul.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)
I wonder about this one. See, he can be referring to destroying the soul meaning eternal salvation being taken from them or the soul being forever destroyed? The Greek word for word says this: AND DO NOT BE AFRAID OF THE ONES KILLING THE BODY, BUT THE SOUL NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL. BUT FEAR INSTEAD THE ONE BEING ABLE BOTH SOUL AND BODY TO DESTROY IN GEHENNA (HELL). Itís hard to know if he is referring to destroy as being separated from God and sent away, or if it means destroy as in kill.

A friend of mine has a different take on the whole rapture theory. He was studying the bible and spent weeks or longer studying revelation. He kept asking God for answers and one day he felt he got it. He said when this revelation came to him, he actually felt someone hit him on the forehead, but no one was with him and then the revelation came to him. I was hesitant to mention this before because I donít want to preach someone elseís understanding of the word, but maybe itís something we can all at least look into. He believes (and I donít know if I can explain it as well as he did) that when the devil reigns, many people will be turned from God. Then, God will bind the devil and He will teach all that didnít believe (even those that died) and give each person another chance to accept Him as their personal Lord and Savior. I think it makes a lot of sense that God would lock up the devil so he can no longer lie and deceive people and then give everyone a fair chance of hearing His word and making a choice. Then, those who still have a hard heart will be sent to hell. I think the bible says something about people are not in heaven or hell when the first die, but sleeping for a time. Something like that.

Well, maybe you are right and God will destroy the soul forever. However, I also believe that at some point in time, they will be in the lake of fire or the bible wouldnít say it. I still think itís something I donít need to worry myself over, but I have been studying more as I said I would. I canít come up with a definite answer though because the bible clearly talks about the lake of fire and isnít clear one way or another as to whether a soul will be destroyed or tormented for eternity.

Mark 8:36
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
(KJV)
The bible talks about the living soul (when Adam was created). Yet the linear bible says if he loses his life.
Acts 2:27
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(KJV)
BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON THE SOUL OF ME TO DESTRUCTION NOR WILL YOU GIVE THE HOLY ONE OF YOU TO SEE CORRUPTION. Interpretation: For you will not abandon my sould to Hades, or let your Holy One experience corruption.

Here, I think he is saying that God wonít abandon him because he is Godís holy one.

Acts 2:31
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(KJV)
Here, it says His soul was not LEFT in hell. That could be meaning eternal, we donít know.
Rom 2:8-9
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
(KJV)

divaD
Feb 20th 2008, 03:27 PM
Actually Diva, if you read the actual Greek it is actually saying (word for word translation): FOR-WHAT DOES IT BENEFIT A MAN TO GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD AND TO FORFEIT THE LIFE OF HIM? FOR-WHAT MAY GIVE A MAN IN EXCHANGE [FOR] THE LIFE OF HIM? The translation of the bible changes those words to say soul. What was really being said is this: For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and to forfeit their life? 37 Indeed, what can they give in return for their life?

The question is about choosing between life and death. They lose their life by choosing to follow the devil. The word soul isn't even in the actual Greek translation at all.


Hi carmy. I'm not trying to be argumentive here, but I beleive the correct rendering is 'soul'(psyche ), and it means as in the soul that departs from man at death.

For it to be rendered 'life' doesn't seem to fit the msg of the verse. Everyone loses their flesh life, whether they gain the whole world or not. Verse 36 rendered as 'soul' seems to be the correct rendering. Look at these 2 verses.


Mark 8:35 *For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 *For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


In verse 35, Jesus stated "but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."

I believe the key to understanding verse 36 is from understanding the last part of verse 35. "the same shall save it." This couldn't be referring to life as in this flesh life, because Jesus just stated "whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's". This could only be referring to the soul, in which verse 36 tells us that it's the soul. Jesus is talking about salvation of the soul or life of the soul, where those that lose their lives for His sake shall save their soul. Also I would like to point out, it doesn't necessarily have to be taken literally about losing one's life for His sake. I believe it can mean giving up worldly things for His sake, which would be opposite of gaing the whole world.

And those that don't, the opposite happens.
And if one loses their soul, meaning, at some point in time, their soul can no longer live, then how can they be tormented in hell fire without end? The opposite of life has to be death.




The question is about choosing between life and death. They lose their life by choosing to follow the devil. The word soul isn't
even in the actual Greek translation at all.


I guess I don't follow what you're saying here. Isn't the greek word 'psyche' used for 'soul'?

Carmy
Feb 20th 2008, 05:42 PM
I'm not arguing either Diva. Just enjoying a good discussion. You caused me to think things through. Unfortunately, I have an injury which makes it hard for me to be on the computer too long and since I have spent lots of time here in the past few days, I hurt a bit. So, I keep trying to check in and spent WAYYYY too much time sitting at my desk with the interlinear bible and my computer concordance studying soul so today is a bit rough. I might have to finish more tomorrow, but I enjoy the posts with you. I hope you do also. I don't know if I can form an opinion either way on this one though because I don't see the bible as being so clear and I don't want my opinion, but God's truth. If I become a pain to you, just let me know.;) I don't get offended easily in forums.

Anyway, in the Greek translation, I don't see the word soul in that verse at all.


For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and to forfeit their life? 37 Indeed, what can they give in return for their life?

The question is about choosing between life and death. They lose their life by choosing to follow the devil. The word soul isn't even in the actual Greek translation at all.


Here, I meant that they were choosing between Christianity or rejecting God. I didn't see this as being an eternal decision. I said this because when I look at the actual Greek translation, they didn't use to work soul at all in the verse.

I haven't determined whether the soul is destroyed in hell or tormented eternally yet though. I guess it's like I said before, I feel like I'm suppose to worry about my walk for today and not worry about tomorrow. So, I don't really worry about what happens after I die. Only that I am with Jesus and I lead as many others to the Lord as I can before I die.

My heart's Desire
Feb 20th 2008, 08:07 PM
There is no such thing as flesh and blood immortality, and there never was, nor was there ever going to be.

The Bible states that flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God. Also take note, God put soul and spirit in man, He did this before man fell. What would be the purpose of that, if God knew that when and if man ate from the tree of life, that man would live forever in the flesh body he was formed in? Why would man need soul and spirit at that point?It is true that the body dies so therefore is mortal, but what of the spirit or soul?
Without a soul or spirit though that would result in a body that has no concious life? No? So what is the point of a body living forever without concious life? If the body continued to have consious life then since they had already disobeyed God knew they would live forever in disobedience. Hence the reason they were barred from the tree of life.
I haven't dwelled in such much but I understand that the body we have now is mortal and the body does die. The thing is, does the soul, spirit live on when the physical body dies? From what I understand this is a controversy for many for years and years. Many try to define what is soul and what is spirit and is there a difference, or are they the same...etc etc.
I guess what I'm saying is that in order to understand the condition of persons in the lake of fire, we have to understand what or what part...do they have a body when thrown in the LOF, is it only the spirit thrown in, is it soul and spirit thrown in and if so what is the difference or definition of soul-spirit.

kjw47
Feb 20th 2008, 11:34 PM
So, you are saying man's effort saves him? No, Mans efforts builds a strong faith. Grace and salvation is for the children of God, not for the children of the devil. But i would also say yes a persons efforts will help him endure till the end. A persons efforts shows God love and ones fellow man love. A super sized requirement in this worlds condition. Efforts keep one busy and out of this world to an extent. Jesus death saved the children of God not the children of the devil. God showed all how he views who are his and who arent-- 1 John 3

My heart's Desire
Feb 21st 2008, 10:43 PM
No, Mans efforts builds a strong faith. Grace and salvation is for the children of God, not for the children of the devil. But i would also say yes a persons efforts will help him endure till the end. A persons efforts shows God love and ones fellow man love. A super sized requirement in this worlds condition. Efforts keep one busy and out of this world to an extent. Jesus death saved the children of God not the children of the devil. God showed all how he views who are his and who arent-- 1 John 3
Ah, correct. Man is saved by faith in the death,burial and resurrection of Christ alone by God's Grace. The work Jesus did, not our work. Anything after that is our santification.

John146
Feb 21st 2008, 10:57 PM
In the lake of fire are you tormented forever and ever or destoryed?Because i have never found any verses that say anything like"And the wicked were completely destoryed in the lake of fire" or "And the wicked were tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire".

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:31-33,41,45-46

EarlyCall
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:34 AM
Only if you can show in the Bible where it states all souls are immortal. Everyone's soul, not just believers.

Mark 8:36 *For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

How does one lose their own soul? Kind of hard to do that if the soul is being tormented forever. The verse didn't say..' and be a lost soul'...it said 'and lose his own soul'. Also, gain is the opposite of lose. So the rendering is correct, and it literally means to lose one's soul.

If you were to lose a hand, it would be forever lost to you. You could never get it back. If you were to lose your soul, you would no longer exist. How much clearer can it be? The only way to lose one's soul, that soul would have to die. And that's exactly what the Bible teaches about the soul that sinneth..it will die. And that's exactly what Rev 20 also teaches..it's the second death...the death of the soul.

Rather than continue to argue the issue in this thread, I'll just point out a few things I've noticed in this thread concerning your method of debate.

First, in a reply to one of my posts to you, you asked me if I understood figure of speech. You did this to make a point. Your point was that I was trying to take a figure of speech literally. I'll refer back to this further down.

Now here in this post of your's above, you make a point by taking "lost soul" literally and deem it not to be a figure of speech or rather as it should be taken - a condition of the soul and person.

My point is that you have been deciding when to take something literally and when not to and using that to support your position. A few things about such an approach. First, neither you nor I are the final say on what is to be taken literaly or not. To be sure each of us must decide individually, and hopefully with guidence from the Holy Spirit. But it is important to be aware that simply because you decide in one post to claim something is not literal and in the next to claim something is does not make it so nor does it actually support your opinion. It does not support your opinion because the decision to take something literally or not is once more just your opinion. You cannot support your opinion with more of your opinion. But you do this quite a bit.

As well, it needs to be understood here that when you try to support your position with an example, that example needs to be better than the one you give above. You give an example above of someone losing their hand to support your opinion of scripture that a lost soul is not alive because it is lost.

Well, ok. Then I can use an example to refute your example. If I lose a watch and never find it again, does it cease to exist? Hardly. Does my example refute your example? It most certainly does. But the real question is, does my example prove I am right? It does not anymore than your example proved you are right in your opinion. Examples given had better be rock solid if they are going to support your argument. Your example does nto support your position.

I'm afraid you misinterpret scripture here. As you asked me in an earlier post, I now ask you... do you not understand figure of speech? Something lost does not necessarily imply that it ceases to exist. It does imply, if that thing that is lost remains lost, that it is no longer of any value. That is implied because it is obvious - if one takes the time to think and understand it. As in my example above about the watch, it has no value in a lost state, but it hardly ceases to exist.

And finally, you never did, in fact you refused I am certain to address the words in the scripture I gave you, those words being forever and ever. You deemed them to be figures of speech. Here too one needs to understand God and His word well enough to make such a determination. Considering the author of the Bible, God Himself, one ought to understand that God does not play mind games nor word games. He does not say forever and ever when threatening someone with eternal torment. Torment was the context of the verse I pointed you to. One must then, if one is to take the words forever and ever as a figure of speech, consider God to be treating lightly His threat to those that take the mark of the beast.

It seems to me one ought to give God more credit than this. I do not threaten my child with torment forever and ever if they do something wrong when I really do not mean forever and ever. I find it difficult at best to think God plays such games with us.

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 12:04 PM
In the lake of fire are you tormented forever and ever or destoryed?Because i have never found any verses that say anything like"And the wicked were completely destoryed in the lake of fire" or "And the wicked were tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire".

I hope the following will help.

Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, And with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, And them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.

Firstfruits

divaD
Feb 23rd 2008, 04:28 PM
Rather than continue to argue the issue in this thread, I'll just point out a few things I've noticed in this thread concerning your method of debate.

First, in a reply to one of my posts to you, you asked me if I understood figure of speech. You did this to make a point. Your point was that I was trying to take a figure of speech literally. I'll refer back to this further down.

Now here in this post of your's above, you make a point by taking "lost soul" literally and deem it not to be a figure of speech or rather as it should be taken - a condition of the soul and person.

My point is that you have been deciding when to take something literally and when not to and using that to support your position. A few things about such an approach. First, neither you nor I are the final say on what is to be taken literaly or not. To be sure each of us must decide individually, and hopefully with guidence from the Holy Spirit. But it is important to be aware that simply because you decide in one post to claim something is not literal and in the next to claim something is does not make it so nor does it actually support your opinion. It does not support your opinion because the decision to take something literally or not is once more just your opinion. You cannot support your opinion with more of your opinion. But you do this quite a bit.

As well, it needs to be understood here that when you try to support your position with an example, that example needs to be better than the one you give above. You give an example above of someone losing their hand to support your opinion of scripture that a lost soul is not alive because it is lost.




Well, ok. Then I can use an example to refute your example. If I lose a watch and never find it again, does it cease to exist? Hardly. Does my example refute your example? It most certainly does. But the real question is, does my example prove I am right? It does not anymore than your example proved you are right in your opinion. Examples given had better be rock solid if they are going to support your argument. Your example does nto support your position.

I'm afraid you misinterpret scripture here. As you asked me in an earlier post, I now ask you... do you not understand figure of speech? Something lost does not necessarily imply that it ceases to exist. It does imply, if that thing that is lost remains lost, that it is no longer of any value. That is implied because it is obvious - if one takes the time to think and understand it. As in my example above about the watch, it has no value in a lost state, but it hardly ceases to exist.

And finally, you never did, in fact you refused I am certain to address the words in the scripture I gave you, those words being forever and ever. You deemed them to be figures of speech. Here too one needs to understand God and His word well enough to make such a determination. Considering the author of the Bible, God Himself, one ought to understand that God does not play mind games nor word games. He does not say forever and ever when threatening someone with eternal torment. Torment was the context of the verse I pointed you to. One must then, if one is to take the words forever and ever as a figure of speech, consider God to be treating lightly His threat to those that take the mark of the beast.

It seems to me one ought to give God more credit than this. I do not threaten my child with torment forever and ever if they do something wrong when I really do not mean forever and ever. I find it difficult at best to think God plays such games with us.




EarlyCall. first of all I would like to start off by what I feel is more important, and that is by apologizing to you if I had offended you in any way. If I did, I'm truly sorry, and that was never my intentions to offend you. I would like to tell you a little something about me, and even if you can never agree with me, you may at least get some idea of who I am.


Before I entered high school, I was on the honor roll most of the time. I was never the smartest kid in class, but I wasn't the dumbest. Then when I entered high school, I started taking drugs. I no longer cared about anything at that point. I was now getting Cs and Ds, and even Fs, instead of the As and Bs that I used to get, mainly because I didn't care. I never went to college. And the type of work I do is a trade within the construction of new homes. The reason why I'm even telling you all of this, is because I don't always express myself in the way that I am wanting to. I guess what I'm trying to say, I can't always express my thoughts as eloquently as others, when it comes to posting in forums, perhaps because I never paid much attention in English class while in high school. Most of the time I'm just simply misunderstood. It's hard for me to explain what I understand and how I understand what I understand, then post those thoughts to others. I'm one that thinks outside of the box. That's just the way my mind works. So if I'm reading where it says the soul that sinneth it shall die, and if I'm reading that those cast into the LOF is the 2nd death, but others say that that is not really true, the soul that sinneth, it doesn't really die, and that the 2nd death is not really death but instead it is eternal life in hell fire, then me being me, I have a problem with that. My mind won't accept that as being true, because I clearly see contradictions. All of that sort of reminds me of the garden scene. God clearly told Adam that he would die if he partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but the serpent told Eve she wouldn't die. I see the same thing happening here. God clearly tells us the soul that sinneth it will die, so who is this telling us that it really won't die? Does the Lord really operate like this? Tell us one thing one place, then contradict Himself another place? I don't think so.

Getting back to the subject at hand, when I read Rev 14 while trying to pay attention to the context, and by also going back to the OT, such as Ez 38-39, then it becomes apparent to me that this ch is not talking about the LOF that we see in Rev 20. It becomes so apparent to my mind, that this ch is in regards to the wrath of God poured out on those that worship the beast. Obviously I can't explain what i understand about this well enough for others to understand also, but nonetheless, Rev 14 is fairly clear to me, and I can't see for the life of me, where Revelation 14:11 has anything to do with the LOF spoken of in Rev 20.

EarlyCall
Feb 23rd 2008, 06:36 PM
EarlyCall. first of all I would like to start off by what I feel is more important, and that is by apologizing to you if I had offended you in any way. If I did, I'm truly sorry, and that was never my intentions to offend you. I would like to tell you a little something about me, and even if you can never agree with me, you may at least get some idea of who I am.


Before I entered high school, I was on the honor roll most of the time. I was never the smartest kid in class, but I wasn't the dumbest. Then when I entered high school, I started taking drugs. I no longer cared about anything at that point. I was now getting Cs and Ds, and even Fs, instead of the As and Bs that I used to get, mainly because I didn't care. I never went to college. And the type of work I do is a trade within the construction of new homes. The reason why I'm even telling you all of this, is because I don't always express myself in the way that I am wanting to. I guess what I'm trying to say, I can't always express my thoughts as eloquently as others, when it comes to posting in forums, perhaps because I never paid much attention in English class while in high school. Most of the time I'm just simply misunderstood. It's hard for me to explain what I understand and how I understand what I understand, then post those thoughts to others. I'm one that thinks outside of the box. That's just the way my mind works. So if I'm reading where it says the soul that sinneth it shall die, and if I'm reading that those cast into the LOF is the 2nd death, but others say that that is not really true, the soul that sinneth, it doesn't really die, and that the 2nd death is not really death but instead it is eternal life in hell fire, then me being me, I have a problem with that. My mind won't accept that as being true, because I clearly see contradictions. All of that sort of reminds me of the garden scene. God clearly told Adam that he would die if he partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but the serpent told Eve she wouldn't die. I see the same thing happening here. God clearly tells us the soul that sinneth it will die, so who is this telling us that it really won't die? Does the Lord really operate like this? Tell us one thing one place, then contradict Himself another place? I don't think so.

Getting back to the subject at hand, when I read Rev 14 while trying to pay attention to the context, and by also going back to the OT, such as Ez 38-39, then it becomes apparent to me that this ch is not talking about the LOF that we see in Rev 20. It becomes so apparent to my mind, that this ch is in regards to the wrath of God poured out on those that worship the beast. Obviously I can't explain what i understand about this well enough for others to understand also, but nonetheless, Rev 14 is fairly clear to me, and I can't see for the life of me, where Revelation 14:11 has anything to do with the LOF spoken of in Rev 20.


You haven't offended me in the least. What I expect from someone in a discussion, and I think rightly so, is when I raise the issue of the words forever and ever, I want to see a response concerning those words.

What I do not want to see is other scripture claiming to negate that scripture, opinion or anything else until the words forever and ever are properly addressed.

In a discussion, a point made by one needs addressed before counter-points are made or other new points are brought into the discussion.

One thing at a time, resolved and then move on. It helps keep the discussion honest.

But no, you haven't offended me. Please don't give it another thought. :)

swtjudy
Feb 24th 2008, 03:08 AM
This is just my opinion. It's the Lord's kingdom. He has certain guidelines that must be followed to enter the kingdom. One of them being, to enter the kingdom, one must honor and love the Son. Let's face it, not everyone honors nor loves the Son. Some even believe they can bypass the Son and still get into the kingdom of God. And many don't even want into the kingdom.

So, how can God save these? They chose their own fates.
The Lord is not going to force anyone into His kingdom, nor is He going to keep anyone out that truly desires to be there because they truly love Him. The Lord has no choice but to destroy these souls that don't want anything to do with His kingdom.

My dad remarried 40 some yrs ago, and started another family. With his present wife, his new family consisted of 3 sons and 1 daughter. 2 of his sons are no longer with us.
One killed himself when he was 20, the other one at the age of 25 got ran over by a semi truck when he was trying to cross the interstate. Neither one of these boys were Christians. Now I'm supposed to believe that God is going to torment these without end in hellfire? I just don't believe that. God will have no choice but to destroy them in the lake of fire come judgment day. That's what my Bible teaches. It doesn't say anything about tormenting them forever.

What I find interesting, I can take verses such as Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:12-15, and show that they are unrelated to one another, yet no one wants to acknowledge that nor comment on it. Most people that teach endless torment, use Revelation 20:10 to prove their case. I just clearly provided proof in my prev post that these verses are showing different judgments and different fates.

satan's fate is to be tormented forever, man's fate is to be destroyed, the 2nd death.

Think back to the garden for a moment. God had just created man, and there's a serpent in the garden. That tells me that the serpent was already in a fallen state before God created man, and that God was going to use man to destroy the serpent, by way of Christ.

1 John 3:8 *He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


I could go more into this, but I'll be getting way off subject to do so.
The only difference between Rev. 20:10 and 12-15 is that it does not say they are tormented, but they are thrown into the lake of fire. Isn't that enough torment for anyone?

divaD
Feb 25th 2008, 02:36 PM
The only difference between Rev. 20:10 and 12-15 is that it does not say they are tormented, but they are thrown into the lake of fire. Isn't that enough torment for anyone?



swtjudy, I have already tried to explain this. Even tho the fate of those in 20:10 and 12-15 are the same, they all get cast into the lake of fire, the judgments are not the same. How do I know?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.




If "and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" also applies to verses 12-15, then "This is the second death" must also apply to verse 10. But then one has a problem. It's called the 2nd death, and satan has never died, so how could the 2nd death apply to him? This is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that satan's punishment, and mans' punishment in the LOF is not the same. Man will die in the LOF, satan will be tormented forever in the LOF. Obviousy satan can't die, but man can, because man isn't immortal. Immortality only comes thru Christ. God doesn't grant immortality for the lost. And since we know that satan has never died, that's a pretty good indication that he was created immortal. And since we know from Gen 3, that God blocked access to the tree of life, we know no soul is immortal.

Firstfruits
Feb 25th 2008, 03:37 PM
If hell IS the lake of fire then why does it say in revelation that hell is tossed INTO the lake of fire?:confused

I believe this was explained by Mark;

Our English translations don't often note it, but the original Greek refers to two places, hades, and gehenna. Anytime Jesus spoke of gehenna, He spoke of it as eternal fire. Gehenna is the lake of fire.