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Pilgrimtozion
Feb 11th 2008, 08:08 AM
Sparked by the thread concerning homosexuals, I'd like to ask the same question about people who practice pornography: do they go to heaven? We often quote 1 Corinthians 6:9, stating that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. The same verse, however, states that fornicators will not do so either. So is pornography equal to or comparable with fornication? Do pornographers go to heaven?

grit
Feb 11th 2008, 08:55 AM
I took a peek, but was not involved with the other thread. Here's the passage in question again:

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (English Standard Version)


But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I reason that the Scriptural teaching concerning God is that He is perfectly holy and just as an attribute of His being - His essence. There is not, nor has there ever been or ever will be any part of His being that is imperfect. To have fellowship with Him as heirs of "the kingdom of God", in our usual concept of an eternal relationship of heaven - in the enjoyable presence of God's majesty, we must also be perfect and holy - without a hint of sin - completly and wholly righteous. Even now, this is only accomplished and applied through the redemption of Christ Jesus.

In this sense, discounting the Judgement, there will be no pornographers in heaven, nor will there be liars, or any evil doers or thinkers (i.e. none with any evil in their heart whatsoever).

Zorgblar
Feb 11th 2008, 09:22 AM
Sparked by the thread concerning homosexuals, I'd like to ask the same question about people who practice pornography: do they go to heaven? We often quote 1 Corinthians 6:9, stating that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. The same verse, however, states that fornicators will not do so either. So is pornography equal to or comparable with fornication? Do pornographers go to heaven?

I think that they might go to heaven if they turn to God and try to not go back to that sin as must as they can.But if they repeatably commit that sin over and over with out any regards to God up until their last breath probably not.

menJesus
Feb 11th 2008, 09:37 AM
The Bible says if we lust in our heart, we sin. I would think that lusting after someone, whether they be adults or innocent little children, is indeed sin.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 11th 2008, 09:38 AM
The Bible says if we lust in our heart, we sin. I would think that lusting after innocent little children is indeed sin.
So what would be the answer to the question as stated in the OP?

menJesus
Feb 11th 2008, 10:38 AM
Sin is sin, whatever it may be. And no, I do not believe pornographers go to heaven.

shamrock
Feb 11th 2008, 11:12 AM
Sin is sin, whatever it may be. And no, I do not believe pornographers go to heaven.

Sin is sin. Even those who men view as "do-gooders", without repentence and the cross, will not see the gates of Heaven.

jeffweeder
Feb 11th 2008, 11:43 AM
I think that they might go to heaven if they turn to God and try to not go back to that sin as must as they can.But if they repeatably commit that sin over and over with out any regards to God up until their last breath probably not.


Amen, while i myself am a sinner sinning--Christ died for me...he loved me in those filthy rags...dont ask me why, he just did.
If i repent i can be saved, even if im a littlle sloppy...I reach out to the truth that is in Jesus and am transformed by the renewing of my mind.

If we continue on without being cut to the heart, we are still lost in blackest of darkness...I think the Lord has found me, and i repent..he has saved me...even though im still a naughty boy...but i wish for him to renew me all the way, and he never leaves me alone.

What a friend we have in Jeeesus..

.sing along and give him the glory...

karenoka27
Feb 11th 2008, 11:51 AM
oh what needless pain we bear....(singing along...);)

Why does anyone try to judge who will go to heaven and who won't? Anyone who hasn't realized that they are a sinner, and also recognized that there was no hope for them but through the blood of Christ will not be in heaven, no matter what kind of sin they are or have been involved in.

I know what my life was like, I know that when I heard the gospel..I turned from my ways and made a decision to walk with Jesus Christ.

Now some things are an addiction that in some cases we carry with us over into our salvation. I believe the Lord can take those weaknesses towards sin and remove them and replace it with something to be used for His glory. I'm not saying it happens over night...(read Romans 7)...but I believe it can happen..

sing with me..."I have decided to follow Jesus!..."

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 11th 2008, 11:56 AM
"No turning back, no turning back" (PS: have you ever heard the story behind that song?)

jeffweeder
Feb 11th 2008, 12:00 PM
Amen Karen...Even Paul was humble enough to say that he hadnt attained it, and called himself a wretched man....but we strive in the grace of God to wash our robes.
If we do this , Gods grace will be sufficient.
All i know is that i need Jesus, after 30 years i feel it more so...wretched man that i am...
God bless you

karenoka27
Feb 11th 2008, 12:03 PM
And Amen again Jeff...I find myself at times saying..."Woe is me, I have become undone..."

Or more often than that praying.."be merciful to me, Lord a sinner.." lk 18:13

jeffweeder
Feb 11th 2008, 12:15 PM
You mean im not the only one Karen?

Nathaniel, who seemed to be one of the better ones, was in raptures about Christ Jesus being lord .
How can you not dance and lift him up.
The father loves this i reckon, when we see Jesus for who he is,.... let us bless bless the father by magnifying the name of Jesus in repentance of our own lives.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 11th 2008, 12:22 PM
I also asked the question in the OP because I was wondering what the essential difference is between somebody practicing homosexuality and somebody practicing pornography...or lying, or coveting for that matter. Why does that question have to be asked about homosexuality? Why not about liars? Or those who cannot control their tempers? Or people who fall into pornography? Why the double standard?

jeffweeder
Feb 11th 2008, 12:30 PM
Thats exactly right.

Or do you o' man, who judges someone else for breaking the law, yet do it yourself, will escape the judgement of God?

Whoever it is we are to love them , Christ makes all the difference and will save all who believe in him..after all he did that for me.

ProjectPeter
Feb 11th 2008, 12:52 PM
I also asked the question in the OP because I was wondering what the essential difference is between somebody practicing homosexuality and somebody practicing pornography...or lying, or coveting for that matter. Why does that question have to be asked about homosexuality? Why not about liars? Or those who cannot control their tempers? Or people who fall into pornography? Why the double standard?
I don't think it is a double standard and the point that it could be any of those things usually come out a number of times in those threads. It's a question and a legit question because of the popularity of the subject now days I suppose. There have been plenty of threads over the years about other such sins... they come and go. You see a lot of threads on homosexuality especially when they have a parade or they have issues that are in the news etc. Comes with the turf.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 11th 2008, 12:54 PM
I don't think it is a double standard and the point that it could be any of those things usually come out a number of times in those threads. It's a question and a legit question because of the popularity of the subject now days I suppose. There have been plenty of threads over the years about other such sins... they come and go. You see a lot of threads on homosexuality especially when they have a parade or they have issues that are in the news etc. Comes with the turf.
I disagree. You know as well as I do that homosexuality is perceived to be much worse of a sin than the others I mentioned in the portion you quoted. So again I ask why we need to ask that question so emphatically about homosexuality and not about other sins? Like I said, double standard...or not?

Brother Mark
Feb 11th 2008, 01:05 PM
I disagree. You know as well as I do that homosexuality is perceived to be much worse of a sin than the others I mentioned in the portion you quoted. So again I ask why we need to ask that question so emphatically about homosexuality and not about other sins? Like I said, double standard...or not?

I don't think there is a double standard. All those folks that practice such things need to be warned. However, keep in mind that Romans 1 teaches that often homosexuality is the final destination for those that push the limits.

Some debate would probably be good around what it means to practice sin. I think that is where folks get confused. We want to call someone a liar that lies one time, or a fornicator that does something one time. I don't think that is what scripture teaches. But God left it open for a reason.

I am not sure I see the double standard. Perhaps some have it. I have personally seen God save homosexuals and then deliver them from it over a 2 year period of time. Their attitude towards the sin changed the moment they were saved. From that point forward it was a fight against it instead of a fight for it. And they overcame it.

ProjectPeter
Feb 11th 2008, 01:35 PM
I disagree. You know as well as I do that homosexuality is perceived to be much worse of a sin than the others I mentioned in the portion you quoted. So again I ask why we need to ask that question so emphatically about homosexuality and not about other sins? Like I said, double standard...or not?Well homosexuality is a "worser" sin in a sense. The word abomination is not a word chosen to describe every sin although it isn't a teeny list. But no... I still don't see it as a double standard but simply the act itself is so unnatural that it bugs folks out. Plus you missed my point. When someone post about liars then the thread talks about liars. When they post about hypocrites then folks talk about hypocrites. When it is about idolaters then that's what the topic is about and what folks talk about. It isn't that someone is saying this is a WORSE sin and the only thing worthy of discussion. For whatever the reason... that was on their mind and they post the question. For whatever the reason with the thread you are speaking of... the person asked the question. Since the topic was about a certain sin... it wasn't as if folks were downplaying other sins. They were simply talking about the specific question asked.

Slug1
Feb 11th 2008, 02:09 PM
Sparked by the thread concerning homosexuals, I'd like to ask the same question about people who practice pornography: do they go to heaven? We often quote 1 Corinthians 6:9, stating that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. The same verse, however, states that fornicators will not do so either. So is pornography equal to or comparable with fornication? Do pornographers go to heaven?

One who has faith in God, has given sinful nature over to Jesus and has asked for forgiveness and remains repentant will find themselves in heaven. Even with failure, as long as the sin is given to God and a repentant heart is maintained, victory will happen in God's time over this sin. A repentant pornographer, one who has been forgiven by God is sinless, turned white as snow. Struggles will happen and with God such a person will have victory.

As for double standard, if I understand the question, is when a person lives in sin (homosexuality or pornography or whatever sinful nature) and tries to justify it with an excuse and even push it to the point by taking fractured scripture welded back together to their liking so it fits "their" god and then worse, evangelizing this false feel-good doctrine to others that have the same sinful nature and get them to worship their god and not God.

Not many congregations out there proclaim alcoholism is OK with God, not many congregations out their that say pornography is OK with God, but for some strange reason there are a few (big) congregations out there that sure push a false doctrine that says homosexuality is acceptable to God.

Well, it isn't and anyone who reads the Bible for themselves instead of listening to the twisted sermons from the leaders of these congregations will find the truth of God, not the ramblings of the person that heads these false faiths.

Now, like homosexuality the sin of pornography will be forgiven by God just as easily as any sin that is confessed to God. It's our job to maintain this forgiven state by being repentant. Failures happen and that is why it's a battle with many people dealing with whatever sin that has hold on them.

Sold Out
Feb 11th 2008, 05:11 PM
Sparked by the thread concerning homosexuals, I'd like to ask the same question about people who practice pornography: do they go to heaven? We often quote 1 Corinthians 6:9, stating that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. The same verse, however, states that fornicators will not do so either. So is pornography equal to or comparable with fornication? Do pornographers go to heaven?

There are many Christian men who get caught in the trap of pornography.

I think pornography is equivalent to fornication in that it is inherently a sin...fornication and adultery are the physical acts of the sin already conceived in the mind.

I think that liars, thieves, adulterers, etc go to heaven if they've accepted Christ as their Savior at some point in their life. We've all sinned after we got saved...does that mean we won't go to heaven?

Friend of I AM
Feb 11th 2008, 05:39 PM
There are many Christian men who get caught in the trap of pornography.

I think pornography is equivalent to fornication in that it is inherently a sin...fornication and adultery are the physical acts of the sin already conceived in the mind.

I think that liars, thieves, adulterers, etc go to heaven if they've accepted Christ as their Savior at some point in their life. We've all sinned after we got saved...does that mean we won't go to heaven?

*notes sarcasm*

No one was advocating that those who practice willful sin and continue to do it without accepting Christ will make it into Heaven. The point made in this thread as well as others, is that we need to be careful in insinuating whom God has forgiven based on their relationship/walk with him. God knows the heart, and whom has attempted to earnestly repent of whatever sin(s) they commit within their liftetime. So it's not up to us to say this one and that one has not been forgiven, and will not make it into heaven. For one to make the assumption that any individual has not made it into Heaven, they would already be present at the judgement/mercy seat of Christ, looking at the list of names within the book of life and rendering judgement on each individual.

That's what was meant by myself in the homosexuality thread, and is the same thing that I utter in this one that it is not wise to make judgements(which assign condemnation or eternal reward) to an individual regarding what sin they've committed. Preach behavior is sinful, preach repentance from sinful behavior - but don't preach to someone that they've already been assigned to heaven or hell based on past sins - or a sinful behavior they're currently trying to overcome(by God's Grace) We don't know where anyone will end up in the end based on their walks, including ourselves.

Semi-tortured
Feb 11th 2008, 06:19 PM
I also asked the question in the OP because I was wondering what the essential difference is between somebody practicing homosexuality and somebody practicing pornography...or lying, or coveting for that matter. Why does that question have to be asked about homosexuality? Why not about liars? Or those who cannot control their tempers? Or people who fall into pornography? Why the double standard?

I think that the difference might be the attitude, but then again, that can be subjective with everyone. A homosexual is someone who practices the sin and may live in a relationship with another man/woman. The key, IMO is the heart of repentance. If someone has homosexual tendencies and that's their demon, they must control it. If I have that "demon" and I slip up, feel horrible about it and confess, then I believe God forgives. I think it's the people that think it's NOT a sin and live it in their lives with an attitude of either "This isn't a sin anymore." or "God will understand." that are in trouble. If I go out and get married to a man, that probably show that my heart believes it's OK and I've made a lifestyle commitment rather than a slip up. I'm benefitting from the relationship.

Of course, that means it all comes down to the heart at which point guess who makes the decision? Not us. There are people (myself included) that deal with the demon of porn. I feel horrible when I do it and I feel like the rest of my day is shot when I do it. I literally feel like I am still sinning hours after I do it. I often wish Jesus would come back, if for no other reason, that the burden of that sin would be gone.

grit
Feb 11th 2008, 06:21 PM
In truth, there are and we each acknowledge differences between sins and their temporal effects in this life. Some theologians would Scripturally argue even further, that there are eternal differences of consequence; however, it's the ones we all agree on that most concern my post.

There's clearly a difference between telling a lie about hiding people being subjected to genocide, and the sin of murdering these same individuals. There are, at the very least, different temporal consequences.

As regards homosexuality, it can be effectively shown that it is at once a sin against one's own body; the biology, psycology, and relational dynamics of nature; as well as generally a sin against society and cultural norms of Biblical law. On a scale weighing all variables specific to only what constitutes pornography compared with homosexuality, homosexuality would be worse by any measure considerate of God's design.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 11th 2008, 06:38 PM
I don't think there is a double standard. All those folks that practice such things need to be warned. However, keep in mind that Romans 1 teaches that often homosexuality is the final destination for those that push the limits.

Some debate would probably be good around what it means to practice sin. I think that is where folks get confused. We want to call someone a liar that lies one time, or a fornicator that does something one time. I don't think that is what scripture teaches. But God left it open for a reason.

I am not sure I see the double standard. Perhaps some have it. I have personally seen God save homosexuals and then deliver them from it over a 2 year period of time. Their attitude towards the sin changed the moment they were saved. From that point forward it was a fight against it instead of a fight for it. And they overcame it.

But why do we insist it is something that is 'practiced' before it becomes unacceptable sin?

How often do we have to practice murder, before we become a murderer?
How often do we have to practice adultery, before we become an adulterer?
How often do we have to practice idolatry, before we become idolaters?
How often do we have to practice coveting, before we become converters?
How often do we have to practice fornication, before we become fornicators?
How often do we have to practice lying, before we become liars?

If committing one murder makes us a murderer, then doesn't committing one lie makes us become liars?
Or would we try and fine some loophole, since many of us can lie often and believe that 'that' is not as bad as many other sins.

Who say's that we are worthy to cast the stones?

Friend of I AM
Feb 11th 2008, 06:52 PM
In truth, there are and we each acknowledge differences between sins and their temporal effects in this life. Some theologians would Scripturally argue even further, that there are eternal differences of consequence; however, it's the ones we all agree on that most concern my post.

There's clearly a difference between telling a lie about hiding people being subjected to genocide, and the sin of murdering these same individuals. There are, at the very least, different temporal consequences.

As regards homosexuality, it can be effectively shown that it is at once a sin against one's own body; the biology, psycology, and relational dynamics of nature; as well as generally a sin against society and cultural norms of Biblical law. On a scale weighing all variables specific to only what constitutes pornography compared with homosexuality, homosexuality would be worse by any measure considerate of God's design.

Yeah there's degree's of sinfulness, but we have to be careful in how we preach it. We preach it according to the Word, not based on how we ourselves view the attrociousnous of a particular sin. We have to be very careful in assigning degrees, as in doing so one can get to a point where they are exalting oneself above another, because they haven't sinned in a particular fashion. Thus one will think their chances of salvation are higher than someone who sinned in another way. This is definitely not the Truth, as Jesus himself stated - the Prostitutes, Tax Collectors, and other sinners were making it into the kingdom much faster than that of the Pharisees.

In Christ,

Stephen

Roelof
Feb 11th 2008, 07:17 PM
I don't think that people watch pornography to praise the beauty of God's Creation. They watch it to stimulate their own sexual desires and lust, which are a sin.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is your neighbor's. (Exo 20:17)


But the fearful and unbelieving {without Christian faith}, and the abominable {dreadful, extremely offensive}, and murderers, and whoremongers {sexually indiscriminate; sexual intercourse outside marriage}, and sorcerers {have magical powers}, and idolaters {worshipper of idols}, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8, KJV + Dictionary)

AtHisFeet
Feb 11th 2008, 07:26 PM
I also asked the question in the OP because I was wondering what the essential difference is between somebody practicing homosexuality and somebody practicing pornography...or lying, or coveting for that matter. Why does that question have to be asked about homosexuality? Why not about liars? Or those who cannot control their tempers? Or people who fall into pornography? Why the double standard?

I agree!!

There is no difference.

Sexual sin is sexual sin.

The thing is, we Christians like to stand up and say "Thank you God, that I'm not like _______" Just like the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector.

What we need to have for anyone partaking in any sin is compassion, prayer, fasting, and a longing for that person to fall under conviction.

Pointing fingers and shouting 'You're Wrong!!!" isn't the pattern laid down for us in scripture.

It seems we're blinded by more than a few planks, eh?

AtHisFeet
Feb 11th 2008, 07:28 PM
Yeah there's degree's of sinfulness, but we have to be careful in how we preach it. We preach it according to the Word, not based on how we ourselves view the attrociousnous of a particular sin.

OK, so I'm assuming then you can do just that.

You can show us these degrees of sin in scripture.

If so, please do, I've been looking for them for quite sometime now.

Gentile
Feb 11th 2008, 08:31 PM
So here is the question. Can you be a homosexual and still be a christian? Say you are in a monogamist relationship or got married. Alot of people on this board will still say no you can't be a christian because you are living in sin.

So how can a homosexual live his life and be happy and be a christian as well? There are people in this world that are attracted to the same sex and they can not change it for the life of them. That is their attraction period! So what I am saying if a homosexual goes about his relations and dating relations the same as a straight person and pretty much lives a normal live, that in my firm belief GOD or Jesus will not condemn that person for being a homosexual.

Do you think GOD know's its 2008? Hello? There are many many gay christians, this is the way of the world so a few people better get their heads out of the bible for a bit and come to terms of the real world. Just saying...

Buck shot
Feb 11th 2008, 08:46 PM
Do you think GOD know's its 2008? Hello? There are many many gay christians, this is the way of the world so a few people better get their heads out of the bible for a bit and come to terms of the real world. Just saying...

This is really funny since we are in an age of grace but man, I would not have been wanting to stand close to you a couple of thousand years ago!

Yes God knows exactly what year and time it is..tick...tick...tick...

Those "christians" that choose to live in sin weither that be sins against your own body, sinful lust of the eye, thievery, disobedience, idolatry, or whatever... will have some surprises coming.

Our father does forgive sins that we repent and turn from. He said even 70 X 7 to forgive those with repentant heart of the same sin. I do not think you can back up anywhere in scripture where God says once you find piece with a sin it is okay with Him for you to stay in it. Sin is sin, is sin, is sin and cannot enter the presence of God.

KATA_LOUKAN
Feb 11th 2008, 08:53 PM
So again I ask why we need to ask that question so emphatically about homosexuality and not about other sins? Like I said, double standard...or not?

Double standard? Heck yeah.

It's easy to call a homosexual sinful, because most of us never struggle with the same sin the homosexual does.

It's not so easy to say that people who use pornography are sinners, because its essentially telling something like 70% of evangelical men and 30% of women that they are openly living contrary to christ (this usually entails telling yourself that you are acting contrary to God's will).

Pornography, however, is addictive. Some women have no idea how addictive pornography is. Sex itself is more addictive than heroin (although this is explainable from a biological standpoint).

Homosexuals have a huge cross to bear, because they essentially have no outlet for their sex drive, if they are Christians.

divaD
Feb 11th 2008, 08:55 PM
So here is the question. Can you be a homosexual and still be a christian? Say you are in a monogamist relationship or got married. Alot of people on this board will still say no you can't be a christian because you are living in sin.

So how can a homosexual live his life and be happy and be a christian as well? There are people in this world that are attracted to the same sex and they can not change it for the life of them. That is their attraction period! So what I am saying if a homosexual goes about his relations and dating relations the same as a straight person and pretty much lives a normal live, that in my firm belief GOD or Jesus will not condemn that person for being a homosexual.

Do you think GOD know's its 2008? Hello? There are many many gay christians, this is the way of the world so a few people better get their heads out of the bible for a bit and come to terms of the real world. Just saying...



I have 2 sisters that are gay. I just found out about this 10 yrs ago or so. According to my mother, one of my sisters claims that she has always had sexual thoughts about girls, even when she was a child. I had no clue. I would have never guessed this in a million years about my sister. This same sister has been married and had children during that marriage.
Also according to my mother, this same sister cuts on herself all the time and has suicidal thoughts.

I love my sisters, and I care very much for them, but if they don't repent and turn from this lifestyle, how can they make it into the kingdom of God? Repent means to have a change of mind and quit doing what one was doing. Repenting is not doing a certain thing, then feeling bad and repenting, then repeating this cycle over and over and over.
That's mocking, that's not repenting.

What's 2008 have to do with anything? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If homosexuality was an abomination thousands of years ago, then it's still an abomination today, and it will stay an abomination until the ones that continue in it are destroyed in the lake of fire.

ProjectPeter
Feb 11th 2008, 09:07 PM
So here is the question. Can you be a homosexual and still be a christian? Say you are in a monogamist relationship or got married. Alot of people on this board will still say no you can't be a christian because you are living in sin.

So how can a homosexual live his life and be happy and be a christian as well? There are people in this world that are attracted to the same sex and they can not change it for the life of them. That is their attraction period! So what I am saying if a homosexual goes about his relations and dating relations the same as a straight person and pretty much lives a normal live, that in my firm belief GOD or Jesus will not condemn that person for being a homosexual.

Do you think GOD know's its 2008? Hello? There are many many gay christians, this is the way of the world so a few people better get their heads out of the bible for a bit and come to terms of the real world. Just saying...
Ah... you believe in that changing god?

HisLeast
Feb 11th 2008, 09:25 PM
Does ANYONE go to heaven?

Buck shot
Feb 11th 2008, 09:38 PM
Does ANYONE go to heaven?

Only the few that chose to do things God's way!

HisLeast
Feb 11th 2008, 09:45 PM
Only the few that chose to do things God's way!

So... one or two dozen?

Buck shot
Feb 11th 2008, 09:49 PM
So... one or two dozen?

I hope a few billion more than that! Remember God knows we are not perfect but we should be trying to please Him. That means we have to try to turn loose of the things of the flesh and seek His will in our lives and not our own.

Galatians 5:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

There is none perfect, no not one. That is why Jesus paid it all for us!!!

ProjectPeter
Feb 11th 2008, 10:01 PM
Double standard? Heck yeah.

It's easy to call a homosexual sinful, because most of us never struggle with the same sin the homosexual does.

It's not so easy to say that people who use pornography are sinners, because its essentially telling something like 70% of evangelical men and 30% of women that they are openly living contrary to christ (this usually entails telling yourself that you are acting contrary to God's will).

Pornography, however, is addictive. Some women have no idea how addictive pornography is. Sex itself is more addictive than heroin (although this is explainable from a biological standpoint).

Homosexuals have a huge cross to bear, because they essentially have no outlet for their sex drive, if they are Christians.
Falls in line with the fact that many are called... few are chosen. The path to destruction is wide and many take that path.

Joe King
Feb 11th 2008, 10:12 PM
Remember what Jesus said in response to the rich people getting in heaven? What is impossible for man is possible for God.

ProjectPeter
Feb 11th 2008, 10:19 PM
So... one or two dozen?
Jesus answers that question didn't he? The answer is few. That what we do know.

Merton
Feb 11th 2008, 10:40 PM
Some comments--

It is not a foregone conclusion that all who have believed will inherit the Kingdom of God (2 Cor.ch 11)

There is a distinction between inheriting the Kingdom of God at Christ's return and entering the Kingdom after the last judgment of the sheep and goats.

The qualifications of the former are stricter than the latter.

The former qualifications are described---

Eph 5:25 -------- Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

It is a process but it can suddenly occur if one repents quickly with the whole heart, but only God knows what a person can bear without sinning and as long as we abide in that given us then we shall be blameless.--

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Men sin (including myself) when we do not believe God, and seek comfort from the world instead, when this world does not supply our normal natural needs.

The world sets us up by presenting something to us as being good for us only to let us down as it does for all peoples.

The book of James (start ch 1)is one of the most important books of the bible despite Martin Luther not knowing what it was there for.- The book has a progression throughout its writings.

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Merton.

CANADIAN BACON
Feb 11th 2008, 10:57 PM
THIS IS A JOKE RIGHT:B
I was just passing thru and came across this post. No I didn't take the time to read the other posts. Pound on me later:)
You see Iam Canadian EH! and up here everybody goes to heaven.
The part that confuses me is who goes to Hell??????:confused
It"s got to be the rest of you guys. Because from what my Govt. tells me being Canadian is the way into Heaven. Oh by the way the Govt also has the blessing of the local school boards. So if you want to go to heaven and are Gay , like Kiddy Porn , had at least three abortions in the last two years or are involved in a same sex marriage come on over. Oh by the way. If you've killed anybody lately and can make it across the border we won't extradite you for your crimes.
Do Pornographers go to heaven:giveup::giveup::giveup::giveup:


Well Maybe:hmm::hmm:

nzyr
Feb 11th 2008, 11:11 PM
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

- Revelation 21:7-8

You have to ask yourselves what kind of heaven would it be if everyone was allowed in?

Sold Out
Feb 12th 2008, 12:16 AM
*notes sarcasm*

No one was advocating that those who practice willful sin and continue to do it without accepting Christ will make it into Heaven. The point made in this thread as well as others, is that we need to be careful in insinuating whom God has forgiven based on their relationship/walk with him. God knows the heart, and whom has attempted to earnestly repent of whatever sin(s) they commit within their liftetime. So it's not up to us to say this one and that one has not been forgiven, and will not make it into heaven. For one to make the assumption that any individual has not made it into Heaven, they would already be present at the judgement/mercy seat of Christ, looking at the list of names within the book of life and rendering judgement on each individual.

That's what was meant by myself in the homosexuality thread, and is the same thing that I utter in this one that it is not wise to make judgements(which assign condemnation or eternal reward) to an individual regarding what sin they've committed. Preach behavior is sinful, preach repentance from sinful behavior - but don't preach to someone that they've already been assigned to heaven or hell based on past sins - or a sinful behavior they're currently trying to overcome(by God's Grace) We don't know where anyone will end up in the end based on their walks, including ourselves.

No sarcasm intended...and I love this post!

I have a sister-in-law who is gay. My mind has done the salvation dance with her..... "is she really saved..is she not really saved?".

It is really hard to reconcile how a believer could willfully sin in that way, either in homosexual acts or pornography. I truly have a hard time wrapping my head around it. I'm so stinkin mad at my sister-in-law for claiming the name of Christ, yet saying what she does is not a sin! Maybe that's what is so hard to understand...how someone could continue in that behavior with seemingly no remorse.

Joe King
Feb 12th 2008, 03:47 AM
All sin seperates us from God and we all have sinned.

Roelof
Feb 12th 2008, 03:49 AM
So here is the question. Can you be a homosexual and still be a christian?

So how can a homosexual live his life and be happy and be a christian as well? ......... that in my firm belief GOD or Jesus will not condemn that person for being a homosexual.



hallo Prodigy

I would like to answer you on the gay issue. Yes, you can be gay and be a christian as well, but remember God hates sin, not the sinner. God will not condemn any sinner.

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)




GAYS, SINNERS AND SALVATION


I feel real empathy for all sinners. God loves all sinners (John 3:16 and Rom 5:8)
But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

While God loves all persons who sin, He hates the act of sin (Hos 9:15) All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. I will drive them out of My house for the wickedness of their doings. I will love them no more; all their rulers are revolters.

The final punishment if we continue to sin will be the second death in the lake of fire.
But the fearful and unbelieving {without Christian faith}, and the abominable {dreadful, extremely offensive}, and murderers, and whoremongers{sexually indiscriminate; sexual intercourse outside marriage}, and sorcerers{have magical powers}, and idolaters{worshipper of idols}, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8, KJV + Dictionary)
Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual (1Co 6:9) (CEV)
will share in God's kingdom. Neither will any thief or greedy person or drunkard or anyone who curses and cheats others. (1Co 6:10)

1 Co 6:9 (John Wesley Notes + Dictionary)

Idolatry (excessive admiration or love shown for somebody or something) is here placed between fornication (sexual intercourse between two consenting adults who are not married to each other) and adultery (voluntary sexual relations between a married person and somebody other than his or her spouse), because they generally accompanied it. Nor the effeminate (an offensive term used to describe a man whose behaviour, appearance, or speech is considered to be similar to that traditionally associated with women or girls) - Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good - natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell.


Salvation and eternal life are possible if we believe in Christ and stop sinning.
(Joh 8:11) And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.

(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Diggindeeper
Feb 12th 2008, 06:58 AM
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Psalms 101:2-3
2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

CANADIAN BACON
Feb 12th 2008, 06:54 PM
hallo Prodigy

I would like to answer you on the gay issue. Yes, you can be gay and be a christian as well, but remember God hates sin, not the sinner. God will not condemn any sinner.

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)




GAYS, SINNERS AND SALVATION


I feel real empathy for all sinners. God loves all sinners (John 3:16 and Rom 5:8)
But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

While God loves all persons who sin, He hates the act of sin (Hos 9:15) All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. I will drive them out of My house for the wickedness of their doings. I will love them no more; all their rulers are revolters.

The final punishment if we continue to sin will be the second death in the lake of fire.
But the fearful and unbelieving {without Christian faith}, and the abominable {dreadful, extremely offensive}, and murderers, and whoremongers{sexually indiscriminate; sexual intercourse outside marriage}, and sorcerers{have magical powers}, and idolaters{worshipper of idols}, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8, KJV + Dictionary)
Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual (1Co 6:9) (CEV)
will share in God's kingdom. Neither will any thief or greedy person or drunkard or anyone who curses and cheats others. (1Co 6:10)

1 Co 6:9 (John Wesley Notes + Dictionary)

Idolatry (excessive admiration or love shown for somebody or something) is here placed between fornication (sexual intercourse between two consenting adults who are not married to each other) and adultery (voluntary sexual relations between a married person and somebody other than his or her spouse), because they generally accompanied it. Nor the effeminate (an offensive term used to describe a man whose behaviour, appearance, or speech is considered to be similar to that traditionally associated with women or girls) - Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good - natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell.


Salvation and eternal life are possible if we believe in Christ and stop sinning.
(Joh 8:11) And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.

(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Now this is a new twist.
The sin goes to Hell and the Perpetrator goes to Heaven:rofl::rofl::rofl:
:hmm:

Romulus
Feb 12th 2008, 08:21 PM
All sin seperates us from God and we all have sinned.

All believers and non-believers sin. We all will sin till the day we die. I may even be in the act of sin when I die. Jesus forgave every sin on the cross so whether homosexual, liar, cheater, fornicator, thief, etc. all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only through Jesus that we are saved. In God's eyes there is no difference in sin, only man sees one sin as greater then another. What is the difference between the pornographer and the liar? Nothing!

So who will go to heaven? I believe it has to do with if you struggle with sin (we all do.) Remember how Paul said "what I do, I do not want to do, and what I don't want to do, I do". Paul is stating the struggle we all go through with sin. I believe the question has to do with is do we acknowledge that what we do is wrong and repent and not call it right and come to the cross and ask for forgiveness. This we will do for the rest of our lives but we can come and ask for forgiveness

Make sense?

Friend of I AM
Feb 12th 2008, 08:29 PM
All believers and non-believers sin. We all will sin till the day we die. I may even be in the act of sin when I die. Jesus forgave every sin on the cross so whether homosexual, liar, cheater, fornicator, thief, etc. all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only through Jesus that we are saved. In God's eyes there is no difference in sin, only man sees one sin as greater then another. What is the difference between the pornographer and the liar? Nothing!

So who will go to heaven? I believe it has to do with if you struggle with sin (we all do.) Remember how Paul said "what I do, I do not want to do, and what I don't want to do, I do". Paul is stating the struggle we all go through with sin. I believe the question has to do with is do we acknowledge that what we do is wrong and repent and not call it right and come to the cross and ask for forgiveness. This we will do for the rest of our lives but we can come and ask for forgiveness

Make sense?

A bit. I think Paul's struggle is evident in most of us. I think the point being made by many is that repentance doesn't equate to grace, grace equates to repentance.

I think that's the point that should be made regarding all sin, not just pornography. Repentence is something that starts at the cross, and it also ends at the cross through Christ. We repent because of the grace of God. As well as are forgiven because of the grace of God. Ideally, we should look at ourselves as conquerors over sin through Christ Jesus when we do repent of any sins commited.

Make sense?

Tanya~
Feb 12th 2008, 08:40 PM
I don't think there is a double-standard, it's just that people always bring up homosexuality because of our culture. Homosexuality is treated as a 'special' sin on the one side, or as a special situation on the other. But Scripture lumps it in with a whole bunch of other things that God calls "unrighteous" and just because one isn't a homosexual, if he is an extortioner, the same thing applies.

As to the OP, pornography comes from the Greek words pornos and grapha, -- images of sexual immorality, carrying the connotation of trafficking in sexual immorality for profit but through images of people rather than having the direct contact with the people. It is related to the same word translated in 1 Cor 6 as "fornicators."

The Scripture itself answers your question, and it really isn't for us to add or take away from that. If you are struggling and under conviction, that is actually a good place to be because it is the first step toward gaining victory over your sin. God has given you what you need to overcome this or any other sin that would keep us not only from the kingdom of heaven, but from having peace and joy in this life. We just need to believe that this is true, and then we need to learn how to use what He has given to us to overcome.

divaD
Feb 12th 2008, 09:53 PM
All believers and non-believers sin. We all will sin till the day we die. I may even be in the act of sin when I die. Jesus forgave every sin on the cross so whether homosexual, liar, cheater, fornicator, thief, etc. all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only through Jesus that we are saved. In God's eyes there is no difference in sin, only man sees one sin as greater then another. What is the difference between the pornographer and the liar? Nothing!

So who will go to heaven? I believe it has to do with if you struggle with sin (we all do.) Remember how Paul said "what I do, I do not want to do, and what I don't want to do, I do". Paul is stating the struggle we all go through with sin. I believe the question has to do with is do we acknowledge that what we do is wrong and repent and not call it right and come to the cross and ask for forgiveness. This we will do for the rest of our lives but we can come and ask for forgiveness

Make sense?




Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



You make some good points, but...who are these in verse 8? Are there 2 sets of these? A Christian set that can do all of these things and still inherit the kingdom of God, and another set that can do all of these things but these get cast into the lake of fire?
Why should Christians from the first set be allowed to be abominable and not be punished, but from the 2nd set if they're abominable, they're punished? I for one don't see the fairness nor the justice in this.

Lars777
Feb 12th 2008, 10:41 PM
This is really funny since we are in an age of grace but man, I would not have been wanting to stand close to you a couple of thousand years ago!

Yes God knows exactly what year and time it is..tick...tick...tick...

Those "christians" that choose to live in sin weither that be sins against your own body, sinful lust of the eye, thievery, disobedience, idolatry, or whatever... will have some surprises coming.

Our father does forgive sins that we repent and turn from. He said even 70 X 7 to forgive those with repentant heart of the same sin. I do not think you can back up anywhere in scripture where God says once you find piece with a sin it is okay with Him for you to stay in it. Sin is sin, is sin, is sin and cannot enter the presence of God.


Interesting that you say the Father does forgive sin that we repent of and turn from, but what about the sin that we have not repented and turned from?

Since you or me or anyone else became christians Im sure there are many sins that we either have forgotten to repent of or just did not realize that we sinned, Ut oh we all be in trouble.

There is not enough time in a day to repent of each and every single sin that we commit, we tend to single out the easy ones like murder,lying,porn,homosexuality,and on and on.

What about loving your neighbor as yourself? no matter how nasty the neighbor is, what about lack of faith, something we all are guilty of!

I have no doubt in my mind that if The Father was to show each of us a clipboard of the sin that we have committed and another one showing the ones that we have repented from there would be a very large discrepency.

What then? how do any us us stand a chance?
Are you sure you have accounted for each and every single sin?

Anyone see the problem here yet? ( bondage) Oops did I say that out loud...sorry

The problem with sin is not the act or action of the sin for we all know pride comes before the fall, or in other words we benefit in some way shape or form from the sin.

And therein lies the problem as we can only follow one master, for if we follow one we cannot follow the other.

By sinning we are placing ourselves before the Father and that is the root of the problem as we can see by the words spoken to David by The Father when He said to David " Why did you not come to me"

I myself had many major issues before I became a christian about 10 years ago as I was a heavy pot smoker, drank lots of beer and had many sexual sins
and a lifestyle that was just down right nasty and wrong.

Two years after becoming a christian many of those I was still living in as I was addicted to all of them, it has taken time, years of time for these to start to fall away, but they have!

It has taken time for Gods love to root up and grow within me but it has and I am now way near the person I used to be.

I guess the point Iam trying to make is if you are living in an addicted lifestyle no matter what it may be and are thinking that God is ok with it and accepts you as you are you have missed the point.

But if you are living a addictive lifestyle and know deep in your heart that its wrong and are looking for a way out and know in your heart that you yourself cannot help yourself then you shall find deliverence.

As was the case with me, after becoming a christian 2 years after the fact I was still to some degree living a sinful lifestyle,had I died back then would I have gone on to be with the Lord?

I know the answer to that do you? ( grace ) Oops sorry did it again.

Shall we start another thread titled do the people that do not love there neighbor as themselves go to heaven?

Now Im sure there are millions more that fall into this catagory than all gay people and people addicted to porn put together!

Do all the people that suffer from lack of faith or unbelief get into heaven?
Im sure this catagory is even larger, for we know all to well that it is faith that pleases God, as we can see the few examples in Scripture how Jesus responded to people showing there faith, He was amazed to say the least.

nzyr
Feb 12th 2008, 10:52 PM
Do pornographers go to heaven?Heaven is for good people. Not bad. Why even ask such a silly question?

Slug1
Feb 12th 2008, 11:07 PM
Heaven is for good people. Not bad. Why even ask such a silly question?Good people is defined by? Those that are saved due to their faith and relationship with God. Or one's who say there is God and have no relationship with Jesus but help people anyway just because.

nzyr
Feb 13th 2008, 03:09 AM
I think Paul's struggle is evident in most of us. In your opinion what was Paul's struggle?

nzyr
Feb 13th 2008, 03:16 AM
Why the double standard?There is no double standard. There seems to be a lot of homosexuals here who keep bringing this up. They don't want to admit what they are doing is evil.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. - Galations 6:7-8

Partaker of Christ
Feb 13th 2008, 11:44 AM
In your opinion what was Paul's struggle?

What does our opinions have to do with facts?

I don't know what Paul struggled with, but it wasn't thinking more highly of himself then he ought.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 13th 2008, 12:58 PM
There is no double standard. There seems to be a lot of homosexuals here who keep bringing this up. They don't want to admit what they are doing is evil.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. - Galations 6:7-8

Who are the many homosexuals here?

Let me say that apart from the word of God, I was against homosexuality for personal reasons.

Is homosexuality a sin? Absolutely Yes.
Do I believe that homosexuality is a greater sin then any of the multitude of sins I am guilty of? Absolutely No.
Am I a better person then a homosexual? Absolutely No.

Was Abraham, Moses, any of the Disciples and Paul, better people then you or I? Absolutely No.
What would have become any of these men, had God not intervened in their lives?

Vivi
Feb 13th 2008, 01:49 PM
If they stop and repent yes. I was once into pornagraphy myself but I turned away and repented and my relationship with God is unshaken so yes if the repent and try their very best not to do it any longer they'll go to heaven.

Romulus
Feb 13th 2008, 08:03 PM
A bit. I think Paul's struggle is evident in most of us. I think the point being made by many is that repentance doesn't equate to grace, grace equates to repentance.

I think that's the point that should be made regarding all sin, not just pornography. Repentence is something that starts at the cross, and it also ends at the cross through Christ. We repent because of the grace of God. As well as are forgiven because of the grace of God. Ideally, we should look at ourselves as conquerors over sin through Christ Jesus when we do repent of any sins commited.

Make sense?

I agree. Where it comes down to it, is that we all sin and will sin until the day we die. The Good News, is that it has been washed away. As far as the sin we continue to do I believe that it is an issue if we acknowledge that it is sin and not right. Whether you are into pornagraphy or any other sin, if you call it what it is then......welcome to the club. We all struggle each and every day as Christians. I believe it is the ones who contradict God's Word that sin is okay is what is an issue. Paul struggled but never said what he was doing was right, just as anyone struggling with pornography or lying, stealing etc. who acknowledges it as sin but knows it is against God's will. If you negate the scriptures and the very Word of God and call sin right, then you are coming against the very Word of the King. Is that a follower of Christ?

Romulus
Feb 13th 2008, 08:08 PM
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You make some good points, but...who are these in verse 8? Are there 2 sets of these? A Christian set that can do all of these things and still inherit the kingdom of God, and another set that can do all of these things but these get cast into the lake of fire?
Why should Christians from the first set be allowed to be abominable and not be punished, but from the 2nd set if they're abominable, they're punished? I for one don't see the fairness nor the justice in this.

No, I believe these are speaking of believers and unbelievers. The point I simply added was that as Christians, there can be many who struggle with homosexuality, pornography etc. and are still believers. All Christians sin but acknowledge that it is exactly that, sin. We do not come against the Word of God and say that what we do is right. I believe the ones who are stated in Revelation are only those in the city, believers in Christ and those outside the city, non-believers in Christ.

God Bless.