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Roelof
Feb 11th 2008, 06:50 PM
GAYS, SINNERS AND SALVATION


I feel real empathy for all sinners. God loves all sinners (John 3:16 and Rom 5:8)
But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

While God loves all persons who sin, He hates the act of sin (Hos 9:15) All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. I will drive them out of My house for the wickedness of their doings. I will love them no more; all their rulers are revolters.

The final punishment if we continue to sin will be the second death in the lake of fire.
But the fearful and unbelieving {without Christian faith}, and the abominable {dreadful, extremely offensive}, and murderers, and whoremongers{sexually indiscriminate; sexual intercourse outside marriage}, and sorcerers{have magical powers}, and idolaters{worshipper of idols}, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8, KJV + Dictionary)


Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual (1Co 6:9) (CEV)
will share in God's kingdom. Neither will any thief or greedy person or drunkard or anyone who curses and cheats others. (1 Co 6:10)

1 Co 6:9 (John Wesley Notes + Dictionary)

Idolatry (excessive admiration or love shown for somebody or something) is here placed between fornication (sexual intercourse between two consenting adults who are not married to each other) and adultery (voluntary sexual relations between a married person and somebody other than his or her spouse), because they generally accompanied it. Nor the effeminate (an offensive term used to describe a man whose behaviour, appearance, or speech is considered to be similar to that traditionally associated with women or girls) - Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good - natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell.


Salvation and eternal life are possible if we believe in Christ and stop sinning.
(Joh 8:11) And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)

(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

SDG
Feb 11th 2008, 07:26 PM
Greetings Roelof,

Firstly, I'm not sure entering dictionary definitions is a sound way to determine how God intends us to understand what certain sins are. For example, idolators are not merely "worshippers of idols" (nor is idolatry only "excessive admiration or love shown for somebody or something") and fornication is not simply "sexual intercourse between two consenting adults who are not married to each other." Sadly, I am guilty of both of those each day...

Plugging in extra-biblical definitions like those serves to make us think that we might somehow actually live up to the law's demands, if we try hard enough. It may not be intended as such, but it comes across as "Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9).



I feel real empathy for all sinners. God loves all sinners

While God loves all persons who sin, He hates the act of sin

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Salvation and eternal life are possible if we believe in Christ and stop sinning.
Have you stopped sinning, or do you know anyone who has?

In Christ,
Josh

Roelof
Feb 12th 2008, 03:30 AM
hallo SDG

I pray everyday that God will help me not to sin. I stay away from the sins mentioned in my post.

God is very serious about sin, if we continue to sin, we might end up with the second death in Hell.


For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)

Fallenbrooke
Feb 12th 2008, 03:39 AM
I think this is so very sad.

SDG
Feb 12th 2008, 04:14 AM
Hello Roelof,


I stay away from the sins mentioned in my post.

This has a lot to do with why I said this:


Plugging in extra-biblical definitions like those serves to make us think that we might somehow actually live up to the law's demands, if we try hard enough. It may not be intended as such, but it comes across as "Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9).


I pray everyday that God will help me not to sin.
Hating and avoiding sin in our lives is wonderful, with the disclaimer that doing it as an attempt to merit escaping hell makes God out to be a liar ("He who believes in the Son has everlasting life, but only if he avoids sin. To what extent, no one really knows. Keep it up though, and maybe God will accept you if you do well enough!").



God is very serious about sin, if we continue to sin, we might end up with the second death in Hell.

Then why were the Israelites unable to enter the promised land (a clear analogy for salvation) "because of unbelief"? (Hebrews 3:19)

Why ought we obey Christ?

2 Corinthians 5

14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;

15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.




For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)

If you understand the context of the Hebrews verse, you will see what that willful sin is. If you think it's any willful sin, then surely you, I, and everyone aside from Christ is hopelessly damned forever. In which case, why did He die?

My responses to you may sound harsh, and I do apologize for anything that is uncharitable. However, it is my belief that your statements are perilously leading to teachings against our Lord and Savior, and His Gospel. I'm not willing to idly sit by and leave it be. Therefore, I'm writing out of love - firstly for my Savior, and secondarily for you and other readers. :hug:

In Christ,
Josh

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 07:11 AM
Excellent work Josh. I hope you have better success than I and some others have in identical threads.




Hello Roelof,


This has a lot to do with why I said this:




Hating and avoiding sin in our lives is wonderful, with the disclaimer that doing it as an attempt to merit escaping hell makes God out to be a liar ("He who believes in the Son has everlasting life, but only if he avoids sin. To what extent, no one really knows. Keep it up though, and maybe God will accept you if you do well enough!").


Then why were the Israelites unable to enter the promised land (a clear analogy for salvation) "because of unbelief"? (Hebrews 3:19)

Why ought we obey Christ?

2 Corinthians 5

14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;

15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.



If you understand the context of the Hebrews verse, you will see what that willful sin is. If you think it's any willful sin, then surely you, I, and everyone aside from Christ is hopelessly damned forever. In which case, why did He die?

My responses to you may sound harsh, and I do apologize for anything that is uncharitable. However, it is my belief that your statements are perilously leading to teachings against our Lord and Savior, and His Gospel. I'm not willing to idly sit by and leave it be. Therefore, I'm writing out of love - firstly for my Savior, and secondarily for you and other readers. :hug:

In Christ,
Josh

swtjudy
Feb 12th 2008, 09:16 PM
I heard a very interesting analogy from a preacher about God, us, and sin one time. He said a mother told her 2 little boys they could go outside but to stay out of the mud. Well, the one little boy he just plowed right through all the mud puddles, not being careful at all. The other little boy did the very best he could, but was unable to avoid all the puddles and did get some mud on him. The mother was very angry with the little boy who came back covered in mud and punished him severely. However, she had mercy on the little boy who had done his best to obey her. I believe we are like these two little boys, but if we are trying our best then God will show us mercy for the sins we do fall into. I also believe that if we are having a lot of fun in whatever sin we are comitting then we are in big trouble. We must practice self control and denying our body what it wants. Hope this helps some.

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 10:18 PM
I heard a very interesting analogy from a preacher about God, us, and sin one time. He said a mother told her 2 little boys they could go outside but to stay out of the mud. Well, the one little boy he just plowed right through all the mud puddles, not being careful at all. The other little boy did the very best he could, but was unable to avoid all the puddles and did get some mud on him. The mother was very angry with the little boy who came back covered in mud and punished him severely. However, she had mercy on the little boy who had done his best to obey her. I believe we are like these two little boys, but if we are trying our best then God will show us mercy for the sins we do fall into. I also believe that if we are having a lot of fun in whatever sin we are comitting then we are in big trouble. We must practice self control and denying our body what it wants. Hope this helps some.


The problem with that is that God loves us far more than a mother loves her children. After repentance that dirtier boy is just as clean as the one who wasn't as dirty.

Athanasius
Feb 12th 2008, 10:23 PM
How might one ask repentence for an action they don't believe wrong?
They can't

MommyTee
Feb 13th 2008, 01:03 AM
sin = sin in God's eyes.......... I am a sinner saved by grace.

All have fallen short of the glory of God.

that being said......the mercy and grace of God is bigger than any sin in this world.....does that give me the right to sin(as Paul said)........no but His mercy, His grace and His power.....is beyond description. I strive to live for Him. I make mistakes, I sin, I fall short of His glory. I repent and get back up and do my best not to sin again. But as it says in the scripture........sin easily besets us....we have to run from temptation......but that is easier said than done. And they can only know it is wrong when the Holy Spirit through our Lord convicts them...does that excuse them.......no it doesn't for His very creation screams out of who He is and what He did for us.

It really is that simple.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 13th 2008, 01:29 PM
What if I had a particular sin that I could not be free from, but out of fear that God would send me to hell, I was able to suppress that particular sin. Would I be pleasing to God?

Would the glory be God's, or would the glory be mine?
Have I exercised the flesh or the spirit?
Have I lived by Grace, or by Law?
Have I demonstrated my love for God, or my fear of hell?

Studyin'2Show
Feb 13th 2008, 01:57 PM
The problem with that is that God loves us far more than a mother loves her children. After repentance that dirtier boy is just as clean as the one who wasn't as dirty.Was the dirtier boy repentant? That is really the question. If yes, then absolutely, the blood of my Savior is powerful enough to cleanse even the dirtiest filth. But what if they like being dirty, see nothing wrong with being dirty, and refuse to get into the tub. :hmm:

SDG
Feb 13th 2008, 06:27 PM
What if I had a particular sin that I could not be free from, but out of fear that God would send me to hell, I was able to suppress that particular sin. Would I be pleasing to God?

Would the glory be God's, or would the glory be mine?
Have I exercised the flesh or the spirit?
Have I lived by Grace, or by Law?
Have I demonstrated my love for God, or my fear of hell?
Galatians 3

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—

6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.

16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Also note that according to the first chapter of Galatians, what these people were giving ear to was "another gospel." :( This is a vital issue. May we never forget that to Christ alone belongs the glory.

In Christ,
Josh

Studyin'2Show
Feb 13th 2008, 07:42 PM
Each of us must judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:31). However, concerning those that are within the fellowship, there should be fruit from the faith. If you say you have faith, you should have something that shows that faith. It's a fine line.

James 2:14-22
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

What are your thought?

Partaker of Christ
Feb 13th 2008, 09:05 PM
Each of us must judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:31). However, concerning those that are within the fellowship, there should be fruit from the faith. If you say you have faith, you should have something that shows that faith. It's a fine line.

James 2:14-22
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

What are your thought?

Hi Studyin'2Show!

If there is LIFE in the branch, it will produce fruit.
If the branch is dead, then there will be no fruit.

It is not LIFE + Fruit, or Faith + works

If there is 'living' faith it will produce works.

Living Faith is faith is Jesus Christ
Dead faith, is faith in myself

What is the mystery?

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labor, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 13th 2008, 09:15 PM
partaker, that is the point! If someone truly has faith there will be evidence of that faith; fruit. I would not presume to sit back and tell ANYONE they are or are not saved. We each must judge ourselves as I said in my prior post. But let's not fool ourselves. Faith is not just about saying a few words, it is about truly believing. If we truly believe there will be evidence of it. If I truly believe they are giving away brand new cars at a field ten miles from my home, I will do everything I can to get to that field. The action of my getting there shows my belief.

Not only do we, as believers, need to seriously judge ourselves, but we also need to make sure that everyone knows the truth so they can also judge themselves. That is us REALLY showing compassion for them because we REALLY believe God's word. Does that make sense to you or do you think I'm just some mean Christian trying to make people feel bad? I can honestly tell you that is not the case. I don't want to judge you or anyone else. But I do want to make sure everyone knows the truth.

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 13th 2008, 10:06 PM
Was the dirtier boy repentant? That is really the question. If yes, then absolutely, the blood of my Savior is powerful enough to cleanse even the dirtiest filth. But what if they like being dirty, see nothing wrong with being dirty, and refuse to get into the tub. :hmm:

The repentant are forgiven, the unrepentant are not.

However, many here judge that those that sin more than others cannot true repent and are not forgiven while I maintain that only God can judge this.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 14th 2008, 01:00 AM
The repentant are forgiven, the unrepentant are not.

However, many here judge that those that sin more than others cannot true repent and are not forgiven while I maintain that only God can judge this.I think you misunderstand what many actually believe. I would like to point out that the word 'repent' does not merely mean to feel bad about or to even be sorry for something. It means to turn away from something. So, simply someone saying they repent is only valid if they turn away from that which they are repenting. Do you see what I mean? There MUST be a turning away.

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 01:13 AM
I think you misunderstand what many actually believe. I would like to point out that the word 'repent' does not merely mean to feel bad about or to even be sorry for something. It means to turn away from something.

It means both of those things.



So, simply someone saying they repent is only valid if they turn away from that which they are repenting. Do you see what I mean? There MUST be a turning away.

Everyone will repent and turn away but turn back and re-sin. This is why God instituted the verbal repentance and forgiveness process and gave it no limitations on use.


Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 14th 2008, 01:52 AM
I don't believe anyone has implied that God will not forgive one with a repentant heart because there is some sort of limit. That's not the point. But not to encourage a believer not to sin seems irresponsible. I'm not talking about beating someone up because they mess up but you know what, they should feel uncomfortable. What do you make of Paul's words here?

I Corinthians 5:8-12
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

He's speaking of those counted as believers. Then in his second epistle to them he says to take the person back into fellowship when they have turned away from whatever immorality they were in. There has to be a turning away.

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 02:23 AM
I don't believe anyone has implied that God will not forgive one with a repentant heart because there is some sort of limit.

Well they separate people into two kinds of sinners. One sins on purpose while the other resists sinning as much as they can but sometimes fails. It is suggested that the one isn't truly repenting and some even suggest they aren't truly a Christian.


That's not the point. But not to encourage a believer not to sin seems irresponsible.

Not a single person has advocated that. Sin is always wrong, but to suggest Christians can remain sinless, or that one will be able to resist sin most of the time isn't very realistic and places too heavy a burden on those that do struggle with very serious sins.



I'm not talking about beating someone up because they mess up but you know what, they should feel uncomfortable. What do you make of Paul's words here?

I Corinthians 5:8-12
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

He's speaking of those counted as believers. Then in his second epistle to them he says to take the person back into fellowship when they have turned away from whatever immorality they were in. There has to be a turning away.


I believe he is talking about very extreme cases where the person is openly sinning and it is causing others to stumble. However, if it is taken overly literal than no one should fellowship with anyone else because we are all guilty of something along the lines of what Paul describes.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 14th 2008, 03:00 AM
I believe he is talking about very extreme cases where the person is openly sinning and it is causing others to stumble. However, if it is taken overly literal than no one should fellowship with anyone else because we are all guilty of something along the lines of what Paul describes.We are all sexually immoral, extortioners, idolaters, drunkards etc? :o Naphal, are you serious? Those ARE serious things. Someone who is still engaged in those things should feel uncomfortable so they will cry out to God who is the only One who can give them the victory. That's the point! Not to make them go away and never come back. But to make them realize that something is amiss so they can cry out.

I Corinthians 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

SDG
Feb 14th 2008, 04:03 AM
Greetings Studyin'2Show,


Each of us must judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:31). However, concerning those that are within the fellowship, there should be fruit from the faith. If you say you have faith, you should have something that shows that faith. It's a fine line.

James 2:14-22
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

What are your thought?

I am in basic agreement with partaker of Christ on this. Let it be clear that the thought sometimes taken out of this James passage (and I certainly don't mean that you personally have taken it) is in stark contrast with the thought typically taken from the Galatians chapter above (as well as many other portions of Scripture). Both contrasting thoughts cannot be true. One could argue that both are false, I suppose. Though it's likely that most people would believe that one is being misinterpreted, or the other is.

As Abraham is used in the reasoning in James 2, let us consider another passage regarding Abraham:

Romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,

12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb.

20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,

21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.

22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,

24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,

25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.


Was Abraham not justified apart from his works? Before his circumcision? Before he was willing to offer Isaac? Before Isaac was even born?

Therefore, I posit that in "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?" justified cannot possibly be meant in any meritorious way. However, I do believe that a Christian will, in the end, have some amount of non-meritorious works.

The Greek word used for justified in both passages (James 2 and Romans 4) is dikaiŏō (1344 in Strong's). These are how it is translated in different situations in two different versions:

KJV (40 instances)
be freed (1)
be righteous (1)
justifier (1)
justify (37)

NASB (39 instances)
acknowledged...justice (1)
acquitted (1)
freed (3)
justified (24)
justifier (1)
justifies (2)
justify (4)
vindicated (3)

Even amongst those ways in which the word is already translated, I can already see several ways in which it is a non-meritorious justification (vindicated? Wow - praise the LORD!). It appears that the word can mean both to regard or to show as just.

True faith will bring forth the results of that faith. However, it may be a long time in coming before such results come to "fruition."

Luke 13

1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

6 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.

7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’

8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.

9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”


We should not despise the riches of the LORD's goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, knowing that His goodness leads us, and all of His children, to repentance (Romans 2:4).


I don't believe anyone has implied that God will not forgive one with a repentant heart because there is some sort of limit. That's not the point. But not to encourage a believer not to sin seems irresponsible. I'm not talking about beating someone up because they mess up but you know what, they should feel uncomfortable. What do you make of Paul's words here?

I Corinthians 5:8-12
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

He's speaking of those counted as believers. Then in his second epistle to them he says to take the person back into fellowship when they have turned away from whatever immorality they were in. There has to be a turning away.

Matthew 18

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


I doubt that anyone who reads this thread and understands he is being treated as a "heathen and a tax collector" has been shown the same mercy and compassion required in the previous steps. Three stages are being left out, and just because someone is not immediately repentant the conclusion is being reached (even though they aren't sinning against us!). If each person were immediately repentant, why would we ever need to "tell him his fault between you and him alone"?

In conclusion, I don't believe Paul's command to "put away from yourselves the evil person" was in contrast to Jesus' words.


We are all sexually immoral, extortioners, idolaters, drunkards etc? :o Naphal, are you serious? Those ARE serious things. Someone who is still engaged in those things should feel uncomfortable so they will cry out to God who is the only One who can give them the victory. That's the point! Not to make them go away and never come back. But to make them realize that something is amiss so they can cry out.

I Corinthians 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Well, I won't speak for anyone else but I know that I am those things. :(

Sexually immoral: Matthew 5:28

Extortioners: I have charged more than I should for some things (could mean charges that aren't necessarily financial, too? :hmm:). I have abused my position in situations to gain something (material/immaterial) that was not justly mine.

Idolators: Colossians 3:5

Drunkards: I admit I can't think of how I am a drunkard off-hand, but according to Ephesians 5:18, being filled with the Spirit is an antithesis to being drunk. Therefore, it could be argued that I'm not fully avoiding "drunkenness" spiritually when I am not "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God" (v. 19-21). That one's just my "hypothesis," though. :)

Certainly, I'm not proud of being these things. They are wrong, and I wish that I were not. It doesn't change the fact of what I currently am, though: a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ. It's not merely that I commit these sins. I am a sinner. That which I am is worse than any of the individual sins that I commit.

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord, "Who will deliver me from this body of death!" (Romans 7:24-25)

In Christ,
Josh

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 07:54 AM
We are all sexually immoral, extortioners, idolaters, drunkards etc? :o Naphal, are you serious? Those ARE serious things.

All sins are serious things. you left out covetous and yes, I think most of us are guilty of some of those sins. Don't think that list is complete. Paul can't list all the sins that would also qualify such as murder and hatred and lying.



Someone who is still engaged in those things should feel uncomfortable so they will cry out to God who is the only One who can give them the victory. That's the point! Not to make them go away and never come back. But to make them realize that something is amiss so they can cry out.

Sure but lets take the case of a drunkard who is physically addicted to a liquid drug. Some people are born with defects that make them more affected by this addiction. It's equal to having a literal illness. It won't go away without a true healing and absent of that miracle it can be a great struggle to not drink. You make it sound too simple and too easy to be able to stop these things.

You don't need to answer this but I want to say it to you and to anyone reading this. Have you ever committed a sin that would in any way be equal to the type of sins Paul is speaking about? Would you have at one time, maybe even currently, qualified to have been the one to be cast out and avoided? I know it's normal to hide our sins from the world and present that perfect, chaste exterior but think about this in your heart of hearts and honestly decide if you are qualified to throw that symbolic stone at another sinner. That's all I am asking everyone to think about. I know I am not fit to do it.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against sin but I think we have to come from a place of mercy moreso than one of judgment or we commit the sin of hypocrisy.

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 07:57 AM
Thank you for your honesty and testimony. I think we all should think about of own sins before pointing a finger at anyone else.



Well, I won't speak for anyone else but I know that I am those things. :(

Sexually immoral: Matthew 5:28

Extortioners: I have charged more than I should for some things (could mean charges that aren't necessarily financial, too? :hmm:). I have abused my position in situations to gain something (material/immaterial) that was not justly mine.

Idolators: Colossians 3:5

Drunkards: I admit I can't think of how I am a drunkard off-hand, but according to Ephesians 5:18, being filled with the Spirit is an antithesis to being drunk. Therefore, it could be argued that I'm not fully avoiding "drunkenness" spiritually when I am not "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God" (v. 19-21). That one's just my "hypothesis," though. :)

Certainly, I'm not proud of being these things. They are wrong, and I wish that I were not. It doesn't change the fact of what I currently am, though: a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ. It's not merely that I commit these sins. I am a sinner. That which I am is worse than any of the individual sins that I commit.

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord, "Who will deliver me from this body of death!" (Romans 7:24-25)

In Christ,
Josh

Studyin'2Show
Feb 14th 2008, 01:10 PM
SDG, absolutely he was justified by faith. However, the works were an EVIDENCE of that faith. Faith is not invisible. And BTW, are you CURRENTLY extorting money from people and lusting after someone who is not your spouse and over-indulging on alcohol or drugs? If you are and if you were a member of my house fellowship, I would first speak to you, in love, about these things. If you don't listen I would take a few others and we would, in love, talk to you and hopefully get you back on the right track. We may set up a system of accountability so you have a support system for when the temptation arises. I don't understand how someone in a loving fellowship can purpose to continue in sin or can even accept still having a bunch of accidents. Putting someone out of fellowship for a time is the absolute LAST STRAW and is something I have NEVER had to do. But if there was someone who was being rebellious and didn't listen when one came, and didn't care when a few came, and could have cared less when the whole church brought it before them then I would follow the biblical example Paul described and continue to love them and pray for them but cease fellowship for a season. :cry:

You see there is a very big difference between purposing in your heart to sin and unintentional sin. But with the right support system even unintentional sin can be brought into submission. Are you not aware that a believer has the SAME SPIRIT within them that raised Messiah from the grave? :pp That is no small thing. We are not to remain babies in our faith who continue to wet themselves and keep calling it 'accidents'. We have to train ourselves; renew our minds to avoid 'accidents'. That's the reason we fellowship. One thread alone can be only so strong, but when you twist it in with a few others it becomes much stronger. And when you twist up that cord with other such cords, it becomes stronger still. We each need to wrap ourselves up with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Then we need to wrap that self up with others who have also done so. When you do, you may be surprised how much you'll have the strength NOT to do.

And Naphal, when exactly have I spoken of not judging oneself? That has been my point all along! How could you be missing that? :hmm: I have witnessed to strippers and practicing homosexuals and drug addicts and practicing heterosexuals (unmarried) and NEVER once have I judged them or made judgments against them. However, for my brothers and sisters in the church, I have spoken to them in love concerning issues they're dealing with. My hubby and I were youth pastors for almost 7 years before we were led to begin our house fellowship. Many times during those years we had to pull a teenager aside and truthfully, we have had to take it to the next level only once by having to sit down with the pastor and the teens parent. Even now, more than two years later, we still have teens and 20 somethings call us when the need to talk and have someone tell it to them straight and hold them accountable.

We tend to get into a bunch of concepts and philosophies on the board but this is all about how we live the word of God; how we are each walking out what Messiah has shown us. That's what it's all about. And no, after more than 9 years of maturing in Messiah, I do not live a lifestyle of sin. Nope! I would not accept that of myself and believe me when I say, those I fellowship with would not accept it. I remember when my then 16 yr old daughter called out my hubby and I when we were watching a movie we used to love before we were saved. She called us on it and when we analyzed the situation and judged ourselves, we found that she was absolutely right. I'm glad she had the guts to judge that what we were watching was wrong and to say something. Call me a pharisee if you want but I know better than that. I know from whence I have been brought and I know exactly Who has brought me (and it ain't me ;)).

God Bless!

ProjectPeter
Feb 14th 2008, 01:49 PM
It means both of those things.




Everyone will repent and turn away but turn back and re-sin. This is why God instituted the verbal repentance and forgiveness process and gave it no limitations on use.


Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.But then let's look at that parable in full.

Matthew 18:21 ¶Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 "And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents.
25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 "The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, `Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.´
27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, `Pay back what you owe.´
29 "So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, `Have patience with me and I will repay you.´
30 "He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33 `Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?´
34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

God absolutely expects one to change. If you don't change then the mercy God has shown you... God will revoke it. Jesus did not give the disciples that "grace" out option. He simply told them... if you don't forgive his brother from the heart... God ain't going to forgive you.

Roelof
Feb 14th 2008, 02:26 PM
I am still a student in the Bible and Study Bibles and would like to add comments on the following text:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)


John Wesley's Notes on Heb 10:26

For when we - Any of us Christians. Sin wilfully - By total apostasy from God, termed "drawing back," Heb_10:38. After having received the experimental knowledge of the gospel truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins - None but that which we obstinately reject.


KJV Bible Commentary on Heb 10:26

The warning. 10:26–31.

These verses, which pronounce the fourth warning of this epistle, contain no promises or exhortations, but only the severity and meaning of the warning. The contents seem better fitted for topical analysis, rather than strict chronological presentation; and so they will be presented under the following three topics: the nature of the sin, the content of the warning, and the judgment of the sin. Verses 26, 28–29will aid in describing the sin to which the author is referring.

26–29.

In verse 26 we read the statement: For if we sin willfully. Westcott notes two distinct elements within this phrase: voluntariness, that is, a realized consciousness of the sin, and the habitual practice of the sin (pp. 327–328). The verbal expression employed in this clause is a circumstantial participle used conditionally inasmuch as that form best fits the context, as was true in several earlier warning passages (2:3; 6:6–8). The participle is in the present tense, implying that the act is habitual, as Westcott noted. The use of the adverb willfully reveals that this sin is deliberate and intentional. This is not a sin of ignorance or weakness; it is by choice.



The nature of this sin fits perfectly with the illustration given in verse 28: He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. The indefinite pronoun (Gr tis), translated he in our version, indicates that what is to follow applies to every one. Thus, the use of despised (Gr atheteoµ) for the one who rejects the law of Moses is "plainly not every violator of that Law; since for many of its violations there were expiatory sacrifices" (Brown, p. 471). The author seems to be alluding to a particular rejection of the Law, which is recorded in Deuteronomy 17:2–7. These verses record that upon the evidence of two or three witnesses, death by stoning was the punishment for rejection (Deut 17:5–6). The sin of rejection in this passage is apostasy—going after and serving false gods (Deut 17:2).




On the basis of the description of the sin of apostasy in verse 28, the word willfully in verse 26 could hark back to Numbers 15:22–31. Numbers 15:30–31 easily parallel the situation in Hebrews. Numbers 15:27–31 reads: "And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat.… And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly. … But the soul that doeth aught presumptuously … that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the Lord … that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

When one willingly or defiantly (lit., with a high hand—Heb beyad ramad) disobeyed God, there was no sacrifice for such apostasy. He must die. This is the nature of the sin of Hebrews 10:26.




I would like to add with an example from a book, I know many people reject it, but I think we can learn from it.




Heaven Is So Real – Valley Of The Shadow Of Death




(Choo Nam Thomas, Heaven is so Real, 2003, ISBN 0-620-34622-1)


JESUS SENSED THE sadness that I carried in my heart over the full recogni­tion of my parents and loved ones being in hell.

"My daughter,” He said, "I know how you feel about your loved ones that you saw in the pit. How I wish I did not have to show you these things, but I do not want any of My children to go to the place where your loved ones are. I am showing these things to you so that whoever heeds my warnings will be saved!" (p57)
The Lord then took my hand, and we returned to the place where Abraham was. We changed our clothing again, and He took me to another high mountain from which I could look down into another endless valley where a multitude of people dressed in gray-colored robes were wandering about in an apparent mood of dejection. Their robes reminded me of the gowns worn by hospital patients. The people looked weak and lost, and their gray faces matched the color of the robes they were wearing. They stared at the ground in front of their feet as they walked around in circles, aimlessly and hopelessly. This place was mostly men with just a few women.


"Who are these people Lord?"
"They are the sinful Christians.” (p58)


"What is going to happen to them"" I wondered aloud.


"Most of them will go to the lake of fire after the judgment.” (p58)


I wondered why these people were here, and then I remembered that their valley leads to the burning pit.
These so called "Christians" who don't really know the Lord and who continually and willfully sin and don't repent before they die or before the Rapture happens, will be eternally lost."


Romans 1:29-32, Galatians 5:19-21 and Revelation 21·8 all are examples of how some Christians live. Someone once asked me how sinful Christians could enter heaven. We all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive what is due to us for the things done while on earth, whether good or bad (see 2 Cor. 5:10)
.
"My daughter, this is why I keep telling you about the importance of obedience and purity.”Jesus said


The truth is, however, that most of the things God has shown me are recorded in the Bible. (p138)

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 10:28 PM
I remember when my then 16 yr old daughter called out my hubby and I when we were watching a movie we used to love before we were saved. She called us on it and when we analyzed the situation and judged ourselves, we found that she was absolutely right. I'm glad she had the guts to judge that what we were watching was wrong and to say something. Call me a pharisee if you want but I know better than that. I know from whence I have been brought and I know exactly Who has brought me (and it ain't me ;)).

God Bless!

May I ask what movie it was?

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 10:33 PM
Almost all sin committed by us is committed willfully and intentional. However, this verse does not address any old willful sin but a particular unforgiveable sin committed willfully and it is mentioned a few chapters earlier:


Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Taking the one verse out of proper context makes it seem to say that sins intentionally committed cannot be forgiven but in context it is speaking about a certain sin.




I am still a student in the Bible and Study Bibles and would like to add comments on the following text:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)


John Wesley's Notes on Heb 10:26

For when we - Any of us Christians. Sin wilfully - By total apostasy from God, termed "drawing back," Heb_10:38. After having received the experimental knowledge of the gospel truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins - None but that which we obstinately reject.


KJV Bible Commentary on Heb 10:26

The warning. 10:26–31.

These verses, which pronounce the fourth warning of this epistle, contain no promises or exhortations, but only the severity and meaning of the warning. The contents seem better fitted for topical analysis, rather than strict chronological presentation; and so they will be presented under the following three topics: the nature of the sin, the content of the warning, and the judgment of the sin. Verses 26, 28–29will aid in describing the sin to which the author is referring.

26–29.

In verse 26 we read the statement: For if we sin willfully. Westcott notes two distinct elements within this phrase: voluntariness, that is, a realized consciousness of the sin, and the habitual practice of the sin (pp. 327–328). The verbal expression employed in this clause is a circumstantial participle used conditionally inasmuch as that form best fits the context, as was true in several earlier warning passages (2:3; 6:6–8). The participle is in the present tense, implying that the act is habitual, as Westcott noted. The use of the adverb willfully reveals that this sin is deliberate and intentional. This is not a sin of ignorance or weakness; it is by choice.



The nature of this sin fits perfectly with the illustration given in verse 28: He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. The indefinite pronoun (Gr tis), translated he in our version, indicates that what is to follow applies to every one. Thus, the use of despised (Gr atheteoµ) for the one who rejects the law of Moses is "plainly not every violator of that Law; since for many of its violations there were expiatory sacrifices" (Brown, p. 471). The author seems to be alluding to a particular rejection of the Law, which is recorded in Deuteronomy 17:2–7. These verses record that upon the evidence of two or three witnesses, death by stoning was the punishment for rejection (Deut 17:5–6). The sin of rejection in this passage is apostasy—going after and serving false gods (Deut 17:2).




On the basis of the description of the sin of apostasy in verse 28, the word willfully in verse 26 could hark back to Numbers 15:22–31. Numbers 15:30–31 easily parallel the situation in Hebrews. Numbers 15:27–31 reads: "And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat.… And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly. … But the soul that doeth aught presumptuously … that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the Lord … that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."


When one willingly or defiantly (lit., with a high hand—Heb beyad ramad) disobeyed God, there was no sacrifice for such apostasy. He must die. This is the nature of the sin of Hebrews 10:26.




I would like to add with an example from a book, I know many people reject it, but I think we can learn from it.




Heaven Is So Real – Valley Of The Shadow Of Death




(Choo Nam Thomas, Heaven is so Real, 2003, ISBN 0-620-34622-1)


JESUS SENSED THE sadness that I carried in my heart over the full recogni­tion of my parents and loved ones being in hell.

"My daughter,” He said, "I know how you feel about your loved ones that you saw in the pit. How I wish I did not have to show you these things, but I do not want any of My children to go to the place where your loved ones are. I am showing these things to you so that whoever heeds my warnings will be saved!" (p57)
The Lord then took my hand, and we returned to the place where Abraham was. We changed our clothing again, and He took me to another high mountain from which I could look down into another endless valley where a multitude of people dressed in gray-colored robes were wandering about in an apparent mood of dejection. Their robes reminded me of the gowns worn by hospital patients. The people looked weak and lost, and their gray faces matched the color of the robes they were wearing. They stared at the ground in front of their feet as they walked around in circles, aimlessly and hopelessly. This place was mostly men with just a few women.


"Who are these people Lord?"
"They are the sinful Christians.” (p58)


"What is going to happen to them"" I wondered aloud.


"Most of them will go to the lake of fire after the judgment.” (p58)


I wondered why these people were here, and then I remembered that their valley leads to the burning pit.
These so called "Christians" who don't really know the Lord and who continually and willfully sin and don't repent before they die or before the Rapture happens, will be eternally lost."


Romans 1:29-32, Galatians 5:19-21 and Revelation 21·8 all are examples of how some Christians live. Someone once asked me how sinful Christians could enter heaven. We all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive what is due to us for the things done while on earth, whether good or bad (see 2 Cor. 5:10)
.
"My daughter, this is why I keep telling you about the importance of obedience and purity.”Jesus said



The truth is, however, that most of the things God has shown me are recorded in the Bible. (p138)

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 10:35 PM
The example teaches us that we can sin even 490 different times in one day and we can be forgiven each time if we repent. This is an extreme example as most people do not sin this much but it shows the amount of repenting and forgiving that can be done.



But then let's look at that parable in full.

Matthew 18:21 ¶Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 "And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents.
25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 "The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, `Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.´
27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, `Pay back what you owe.´
29 "So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, `Have patience with me and I will repay you.´
30 "He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33 `Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?´
34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

God absolutely expects one to change. If you don't change then the mercy God has shown you... God will revoke it. Jesus did not give the disciples that "grace" out option. He simply told them... if you don't forgive his brother from the heart... God ain't going to forgive you.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 14th 2008, 10:58 PM
May I ask what movie it was?Monty Python's The Meaning of Life. :P Can you believe it? We used to laugh so hard at the guy getting his liver taken because it was just so silly. She had different eyes. ;)

Naphal
Feb 14th 2008, 11:06 PM
Monty Python's The Meaning of Life. :P Can you believe it? We used to laugh so hard at the guy getting his liver taken because it was just so silly. She had different eyes. ;)

And just to be clear. You now view watching that movie as sinful?

Studyin'2Show
Feb 15th 2008, 01:41 AM
And just to be clear. You now view watching that movie as sinful?No. Certain things may not be sin but they may not be fruit in keeping with righteousness. ;) We have to be careful what let our eyes see and ears hear. My use of it as an example is simply to show how we as believers can be accountable to each other. It's that kind of fellowship that gives us the added support to get through temptation and to cast down vain imaginations when they come so we can walk in righteousness.

SDG
Feb 16th 2008, 08:27 AM
Hello Studyin'2Show!

I apologize for the late response.


And BTW, are you CURRENTLY extorting money from people
Extortion doesn't necessarily need to be financial. Let me give an example. Imagine I'm talking with a friend, and I know he has work to do, someone else to meet, or some other important issue to deal with. However, I still take up his time that could have been wisely used for something else. In my opinion, that's extortion.


and lusting after someone who is not your spouse
In light of the verse I posted on this, yes.


and over-indulging on alcohol or drugs?
Not that I know of, but again, in light of the verse that I mentioned, I may qualify under spiritual drunkenness.



If you are and if you were a member of my house fellowship, I would first speak to you, in love, about these things. If you don't listen I would take a few others and we would, in love, talk to you and hopefully get you back on the right track. We may set up a system of accountability so you have a support system for when the temptation arises. I don't understand how someone in a loving fellowship can purpose to continue in sin or can even accept still having a bunch of accidents. Putting someone out of fellowship for a time is the absolute LAST STRAW and is something I have NEVER had to do. But if there was someone who was being rebellious and didn't listen when one came, and didn't care when a few came, and could have cared less when the whole church brought it before them then I would follow the biblical example Paul described and continue to love them and pray for them but cease fellowship for a season. :cry:
Firstly, I admire your efforts to work with those who are struggling with besetting sins! :D

However, I haven't stated anywhere that I don't care or am not listening. That I do care can hopefully be seen by my past posts.


You see there is a very big difference between purposing in your heart to sin and unintentional sin.
I believe most of my sins are intentional. Although I am also disturbed by those that are unintentional (or in ignorance), there is naturally something even more hideous with those that are willful.

Psalm 19

12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.

13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression.

14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.




But with the right support system even unintentional sin can be brought into submission. Are you not aware that a believer has the SAME SPIRIT within them that raised Messiah from the grave? :pp That is no small thing.
I do agree that fellowship and accountability are important (Hebrews 10 draws a comparison between not considering one another/forsaking of assembling together and rejection of Christ!). However, I believe it is by Christ alone that I am able to overcome, because He has overcome! :pp

1 John 5

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Praise the LORD for His sure promises! :pp


We are not to remain babies in our faith who continue to wet themselves and keep calling it 'accidents'. We have to train ourselves; renew our minds to avoid 'accidents'.
Amen! How do we become trained and have our minds renewed?

I didn't respond to every section, but hopefully these ones will be okay for the time being. :)

In Christ,
Josh

Studyin'2Show
Feb 16th 2008, 02:06 PM
Sorry Josh but spending time with a friend is not extortion. BTW, how old are you? I'm a 40 yr old mother of three and wife of one. I don't do much 'hanging out' with friends anymore. If my hubby or kids have someplace they're supposed to be, I encourage them to get there. So, if you feel you are exhorting people, so be it, but I am not. Throughout this thread I have been speaking of a lifestyle of sin vs a lifestyle of righteousness. Just as a wicked person can occasionally do something nice yet still be considered wicked, so can a righteous person slip up and do something wicked yet still be righteous. Slipping up into sin and doing what you seem to be advocating 'sinning almost every moment' are very different.

As to the lusting after someone in your heart, do you know what that is? It's not just looking at someone attractive and saying - Wow, they're attractive. Lusting after someone in your heart is looking at an attractive person and imagining them in a s*xual situation or wishing they were in that situation with you. As a formerly promiscuous bis*xual, my hubby and I know a lot about lusting. Have you seen some of the commercials on tv? I have to deal with temptation ALL the time but guess what? I turn the channel and I recite scripture to counter any wicked thoughts and I will ask God to fill my mind with pure thoughts. Where I was weak, HE has been strong and lust is no longer the stronghold it once was. Have I let my guard down? Heavens no! I know that in my flesh there is no good thing. Which is why I must crucify my flesh DAILY! If there is a day that I don't crucify my flesh, I could easily slip right back into the fleshly ways of lust from which HE has brought me. But guess what, Josh? If I was living in that place EVERY DAY I would have to analyze myself and my relationship with Him. One who is abiding in Him should NOT be continuing in a lifestyle of living in the flesh ALL the time. :rolleyes:

You asked how we renew our minds. There are many scriptures that tell us how we should be living now. We should be abiding in Him and His word should be abiding in us. Read all of Romans 12 and here is another passage to consider.

Ephesians 4:21-32
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

We should be living differently. We should not be continuing on as we were before we were saved. And if we are, we need to analyze why. ;) Oh, and I just want to make it clear that I have not meant to imply that in and of myself I can attain righteousness. ALL the glory goes to HIM for the righteousness to which He has brought me. If someone looks at me (especially those who knew the old me), I want them to surely know that it is Him living in me that they see now. :)

God Bless!

Roelof
Feb 17th 2008, 04:05 PM
The following Bible texts state it very beautiful and clear for me:

God did this because he wanted you Gentiles to understand his wonderful and glorious mystery. And the mystery is that Christ lives in you, and he is your hope of sharing in God's glory. (Col 1:27, CEV)


24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.
25If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. (Gal 5:24-25, NLT)

SDG
Feb 17th 2008, 05:43 PM
Greetings Roelof,


God did this because he wanted you Gentiles to understand his wonderful and glorious mystery. And the mystery is that Christ lives in you, and he is your hope of sharing in God's glory. (Col 1:27, CEV)
Amen! Here's the whole chapter (NKJV).

Colossians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints;

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,

6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf,

8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.

9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;

12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled

22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,

26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.




24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.
25If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. (Gal 5:24-25, NLT)

Amen to those verses! That translation reads out a lot differently than any that I have do, though. Since I also wanted to post the context of that verse, here's the whole chapter (NKJV).

Galatians 5

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you.

9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.

11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.

12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,

20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,

21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


Sometimes I feel the book of Galatians is being largely ignored, especially considering what some of the large problems in the church are today. :(

Blessings on this Lord's day!

In Christ,
Josh

SDG
Feb 17th 2008, 06:52 PM
Greetings Studyin'2Show,


Sorry Josh but spending time with a friend is not extortion.
I think it can be, if I am using my position (friendship) to gain something (his/her time) that doesn't belong to me (is better used for other purposes).



BTW, how old are you?

25. :)


I'm a 40 yr old mother of three and wife of one. I don't do much 'hanging out' with friends anymore. If my hubby or kids have someplace they're supposed to be, I encourage them to get there. So, if you feel you are exhorting people, so be it, but I am not.
I love talking with people, and spending time together (which is kind of strange, since I'm actually very introverted ;)). Since I've moved, I haven't made too many local friends though. In any event, I wasn't necessarily talking about any sort of time spent with friends, but only under such a condition as mentioned in the post.


Throughout this thread I have been speaking of a lifestyle of sin vs a lifestyle of righteousness. Just as a wicked person can occasionally do something nice yet still be considered wicked, so can a righteous person slip up and do something wicked yet still be righteous.
One thing that I disagree with is that a wicked person can do anything nice (although it could still be seen as good by men). One question: Why would the righteous person still be considered righteous?


Slipping up into sin and doing what you seem to be advocating 'sinning almost every moment' are very different.
Advocating?! :(:o


As to the lusting after someone in your heart, do you know what that is? It's not just looking at someone attractive and saying - Wow, they're attractive. Lusting after someone in your heart is looking at an attractive person and imagining them in a s*xual situation or wishing they were in that situation with you.
I don't personally think it is only limited to imagining or wishing about such a person in a sexual situation.


As a formerly promiscuous bis*xual, my hubby and I know a lot about lusting. Have you seen some of the commercials on tv? I have to deal with temptation ALL the time but guess what? I turn the channel and I recite scripture to counter any wicked thoughts and I will ask God to fill my mind with pure thoughts.
Praise the LORD! :pp


Where I was weak, HE has been strong and lust is no longer the stronghold it once was.
Praise the LORD! I pray Christ will show Himself strong in my weakness every day of my life.


Have I let my guard down? Heavens no! I know that in my flesh there is no good thing. Which is why I must crucify my flesh DAILY! If there is a day that I don't crucify my flesh, I could easily slip right back into the fleshly ways of lust from which HE has brought me. But guess what, Josh? If I was living in that place EVERY DAY I would have to analyze myself and my relationship with Him.
Personally, I believe the root of sin is unbelief (Hebrews 3 being one of my reasons).


One who is abiding in Him should NOT be continuing in a lifestyle of living in the flesh ALL the time. :rolleyes:
Amen! (Though I wouldn't use the eye-rolling when saying that.)



You asked how we renew our minds. There are many scriptures that tell us how we should be living now. We should be abiding in Him and His word should be abiding in us. Read all of Romans 12 and here is another passage to consider.

Ephesians 4:21-32
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Amen to those verses!

Romans 12

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,

5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;

7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching;

8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;

11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;

12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.

16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.

18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

20 Therefore

“ If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.



We should be living differently. We should not be continuing on as we were before we were saved. And if we are, we need to analyze why. ;)
Amen!


ALL the glory goes to HIM for the righteousness to which He has brought me.
I long to be more like unto Him... Even though every action I will do on this earth will be imperfect in some way! :(Galatians 5:5 "For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." :pp

However, the righteousness on which my life depends is the one which is imputed (Christ's), not imparted. That one has no flaw or defect - PRAISE THE LORD! :pp



Oh, and I just want to make it clear that I have not meant to imply that in and of myself I can attain righteousness.

. . .

If someone looks at me (especially those who knew the old me), I want them to surely know that it is Him living in me that they see now. :)
Praise the LORD!

Have a blessed Lord's day!

In Christ,
Josh

Studyin'2Show
Feb 17th 2008, 08:22 PM
Thanks for your response, Josh! I don't do the long split up posts so I'll just address a couple of your points. I believe there is a fine line between both sides of this dialog, with each side being much closer than it may seem looking at what seems to be the conflict. ;)

I'm not sure why you would be 'extorting' something from your friends. Maybe I'm just so far from that place in my life of 'hanging out' that I just can't relate to it. :dunno:

You say you do not agree that a wicked person can do something good. But scripture says that they can.

Matthew 7:11 - If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Yeshua clearly says here that evil people know how to do good for their children. This is just one example. The unrighteous judge also did something good for the persistent woman. Unbelievers can do good things. Also, why would a righteous person still be considered righteous? Because scripture tells us that those who 'practice' righteousness are righteous.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

If you weren't the one who posted that you sin almost every moment, I apologize. I thought it was you but I don't feel like going back to see who posted that. :D

The definition of 'lust' is to have intense or obsessive s*xual desires or cravings. So, do you believe s*xual lust is something else? :hmm:

The sarcastic smiley was used because I truly can not understand why any other believer would have a problem with me advocating that a believer should not live a lifestyle of sin. Scripture tells us to be holy as I am holy and that is what I will continue to stand by.

Thanks for the dialog! I have enjoyed being stretched to dig deeper into God's word. ;)

God Bless!

ProjectPeter
Feb 18th 2008, 12:06 AM
The example teaches us that we can sin even 490 different times in one day and we can be forgiven each time if we repent. This is an extreme example as most people do not sin this much but it shows the amount of repenting and forgiving that can be done.Actually... it teaches us that this is how many times we're supposed to forgive our brother from the heart. ;) Context is everything.

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 03:20 AM
Actually... it teaches us that this is how many times we're supposed to forgive our brother from the heart. ;) Context is everything.

Same thing. It's a lesson in repentance and forgiveness.

Ashly
Feb 18th 2008, 03:38 AM
Simply put:

sin = sin

Once we have awareness, God expects us to do our HUMAN best.

When we sin, we repent ... he forgives. Repenting means we are doing, and continue to do, our best not to repeat the behavior/action/sin; it does not mean that we will never sin again. We STRIVE to be as sinless as possible; we do our best. And I don't know about anybody else, but my best is good enough. God said so.

When we honestly repent and live for God, He forgives us of our sins. What God wants are continued honest efforts as they pertain to sin; he forgives our "human frailties," which is why Jesus died for our sins to begin with (otherwise, He died on the cross for what?!).

What if I die before I had an opportunity to repent for any one particular sin? He will examine my heart and find the truth (my motives, my intentions ...). Yes, He is that loving and merciful! No, He will not ultimately "cast me into hell, or brimstone whatever" because I sinned once (or perhaps many times) when He looks into my heart. He knows me, and you, and you, and you, and you .... ALL the true.

My humble opinion, thanks for letting me share.

Ashly

Studyin'2Show
Feb 18th 2008, 03:45 AM
Same thing. It's a lesson in repentance and forgiveness.Reading something else into it, aren't you?;) It actually never speaks of whether the brother is repentant or not.

Roelof
Feb 18th 2008, 03:47 AM
Simply put:

sin = sin

Once we have awareness, God expects us to do our HUMAN best.

When we sin, we repent ... he forgives. Repenting means we are doing, and continue to do, our best not to repeat the behavior/action/sin; it does not mean that we will never sin again. We STRIVE to be as sinless as possible; we do our best.

When we honestly repent and live for God, He forgives us of our sins. What God wants are continued honest efforts as they pertain to sin; he forgives our "human frailties," which is why Jesus died for our sins to begin with (otherwise, He died on the cross for what?!).


Ashly

Ashly

I fully agree that we must STRIVE not to sin, ask forgiveness and have the right attitude in our hearts

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 04:20 AM
Reading something else into it, aren't you?;) It actually never speaks of whether the brother is repentant or not.

Really? I'm pretty sure it does.


Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

SDG
Feb 18th 2008, 05:02 AM
Greetings Studyin'2Show,


I'm not sure why you would be 'extorting' something from your friends. Maybe I'm just so far from that place in my life of 'hanging out' that I just can't relate to it. :dunno:
Nevermind this one point - I think we are just seeing it differently.



You say you do not agree that a wicked person can do something good. But scripture says that they can.

Matthew 7:11 - If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

My response would be that one could give a gift that is good, yet the deed itself would not be good. At least, not good in the eyes of our LORD (as mentioned, I don't know how all us folk would view it).

If the "righteousness" of those fear the LORD are "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64), I can't imagine how the wicked could do one truly good thing.

Also, I would consider "whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23), as well as:

Hebrews 11

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.


If it isn't pleasing to the LORD, I don't personally think it could possibly be good.


Yeshua clearly says here that evil people know how to do good for their children. This is just one example. The unrighteous judge also did something good for the persistent woman. Unbelievers can do good things.
I don't believe the unrighteous judge did anything good at all, even though what he finally did was what the widow wanted. God looks at the heart, and the only reason the unrighteous judge avenged her was to keep his own comfort.

Luke 18

1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart,

2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man.

3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’

4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man,

5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’”

6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said.

7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”


Is anything not done out of perfect love for God and neighbor (i.e. a violation of the law) "good" in God's eyes?


Also, why would a righteous person still be considered righteous? Because scripture tells us that those who 'practice' righteousness are righteous.
If the righteous person is still considered righteous when he sins because he practices righteousness, how many sins does he get before he's not righteous/practicing righteousness any longer? It becomes a serious question, because a definition is needed, if he stays righteous because he is practicing righteousness.



1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Amen! Only notice, it doesn't say that the person is righteous because he practices righteousness! Logically, it should be read the other way around.

He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous.
Bob practices righteousness.
Therefore, Bob is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous.

Therefore, if someone is practicing righteousness, it must be because he is righteous...just as He is righteous! :pp How could we possibly be righteous just as Jesus Christ is righteous?! :hmm:



If you weren't the one who posted that you sin almost every moment, I apologize. I thought it was you but I don't feel like going back to see who posted that. :D
I did post that (or something to the effect), but I wasn't advocating any sin. :(


The definition of 'lust' is to have intense or obsessive s*xual desires or cravings. So, do you believe s*xual lust is something else? :hmm:
I don't think it needs to be "intense" or "obsessive" in order to be a sin.


The sarcastic smiley was used because I truly can not understand why any other believer would have a problem with me advocating that a believer should not live a lifestyle of sin.
I don't have any problem with that. :)


Scripture tells us to be holy as I am holy and that is what I will continue to stand by.
Indeed we ought to be.


Thanks for the dialog! I have enjoyed being stretched to dig deeper into God's word. ;)
Thanks for all the responses and questions! :bounce: (bouncing back and forth!)

In Christ,
Josh

ProjectPeter
Feb 18th 2008, 12:19 PM
Same thing. It's a lesson in repentance and forgiveness.Well no... not really. No where in that do you see where it says that God will do it 7X70. Nor is that even implied.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 18th 2008, 01:15 PM
Really? I'm pretty sure it does.


Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.Well, Naphal, you were referring to the seventy times seven reference saying 490 times, right? That's this reference:

Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

That reference (the one with 490 times) does not speak to how many times a person should be comfortable sinning and repenting but only how much WE should forgive which is, in essence, all the time (7 x 70 a day). However, the reference you quote here that speaks of the person repenting, ONLY says seven times.

Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

You see, this reference actually speaks to what we've been speaking of here. A brother sinning and us rebuking him (which some don't think we should do), then he repents, then you forgive him SEVEN times. It's a progression. And this only gives him 'permission', so to speak, to sin and repent seven times.

This thread is speaking in regards to those who are comfortable sinning. According to this reference in Luke we SHOULD rebuke them and pray that rebuke leads them to repentance.

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Feb 18th 2008, 01:32 PM
Josh, I think you may be over analyzing things. Sometimes a stone is just a stone. Yeshua said we could do good things when we were evil so I will stand on His word. ;)

As to how many sins a righteous man gets, :lol: you are completely missing the point. The one who practices righteousness has purposed in his heart to walk righteously. He is truly following Yeshua's lead and thus righteous. A person who feels they are homos*xual, if they purpose to walk righteously, they will forsake that lifestyle. They will remain righteous as long as they purpose in their heart to walk righteously. However, if you have a homos*xual who likes practicing that sin and believes it's okay or knows it's sin but purposes to do it anyway and expect forgiveness, that person has not purposed to walk righteously. There is a big difference. Thus, there is no magic number of sins one gets. It's is whether they have truly made Yeshua Lord of their lives. If they have, they have purposed in their heart to walk righteously.

God Bless!

SDG
Feb 18th 2008, 07:31 PM
Greetings Studyin'2Show,


This thread is speaking in regards to those who are comfortable sinning. According to this reference in Luke we SHOULD rebuke them and pray that rebuke leads them to repentance.
I know that this wasn't written in response to me, but I did want to say that no one should feel comfortable in sinning. I pray that in my sins, I would feel as miserable, or moreso, than David recorded in many Psalms. Most importantly, may I be driven to look to Jesus Christ, by whatever means God has ordained.

Proverbs 29

1 He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck,
Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

Finally, I don't see anything wrong at all with Biblically rebuking someone (and I hope that it hasn't come across as otherwise in this thread). The issues I have are with how we (yes, I am including myself because I fall for it, too) perceive the salvation/election "status" of others based upon these things.


As to how many sins a righteous man gets, :lol: you are completely missing the point.

However, that's not the way I think! :) I only think it's a fair question to ask if one holds to the position that a man is righteous because he practices righteousness. How much righteousness is required for it to be considered "practicing" ought to be defined, since that is the measure by which he is considered righteous or unrighteous - in this scenario.


It's is whether they have truly made Yeshua Lord of their lives.
How does one make Him Lord of his life?

In Christ,
Josh

Studyin'2Show
Feb 18th 2008, 08:33 PM
Josh,

The entire point is about those who ARE comfortable in sin. Those who choose to disregard what the word of God says because of their own will; what they want. In case you don't know, there are plenty of people who are not morose or sullen or miserable concerning their sin, as David wrote in the Psalms. There are plenty who have the attitude that they will do whatever they want and that God will forgive them, and here's the kicker....they still WANT to sin. That is NOT making Him Lord of their lives. A lord is your boss and you do what he says. Our Lord should be the boss of our lives and we should do what He says.

As for the perception of the salvation status of others, that's not my job. I have no way to judge others because I can not see the heart of others. Therefore, I do not judge such a serious thing. What I am is a watchman on the wall, and if I see my brother producing fruit not in keeping with righteousness, it is my job to warn him so that he may judge HIMSELF! We each must judge ourselves. Someone recognizing that they are still a slave to sin, should hear God's word saying that those who abide in Him and who have His word abiding in them, are no longer be slaves to sin but rather slaves to righteousness, and realize that maybe they are not abiding in Him. If they recognize they are not abiding in Him and that His word does not abide in them, then they can begin to abide in Him and thus gain the victory in Yeshua! :pp That, my friend, is the purpose of this thread, NOT judging others.

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 09:46 PM
Well no... not really. No where in that do you see where it says that God will do it 7X70. Nor is that even implied.

The gospels aren't 100 percent exactly the same but this is still part of the same lesson about forgiveness and repentance. In one we have a 490 figure and in the other we only have the 7 times figure. Neither cancel the other out, both are valid teachings don't you agree? So what is your real dispute here? Surely you don't claim that we forgive a non-repentant brother 490 times a day but can only forgive a repentant brother only 7 times in a day.

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 09:47 PM
Well, Naphal, you were referring to the seventy times seven reference saying 490 times, right? That's this reference:

Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

That reference (the one with 490 times) does not speak to how many times a person should be comfortable sinning and repenting but only how much WE should forgive which is, in essence, all the time (7 x 70 a day). However, the reference you quote here that speaks of the person repenting, ONLY says seven times.

Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

You see, this reference actually speaks to what we've been speaking of here. A brother sinning and us rebuking him (which some don't think we should do), then he repents, then you forgive him SEVEN times. It's a progression. And this only gives him 'permission', so to speak, to sin and repent seven times.

This thread is speaking in regards to those who are comfortable sinning. According to this reference in Luke we SHOULD rebuke them and pray that rebuke leads them to repentance.

God Bless!



The gospels aren't 100 percent exactly the same but this is still part of the same lesson about forgiveness and repentance. In one we have a 490 figure and in the other we only have the 7 times figure. Neither cancel the other out, both are valid teachings don't you agree? So what is your real dispute here? Surely you don't claim that we forgive a non-repentant brother 490 times a day but can only forgive a repentant brother only 7 times in a day.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 19th 2008, 12:07 AM
The gospels aren't 100 percent exactly the same but this is still part of the same lesson about forgiveness and repentance. In one we have a 490 figure and in the other we only have the 7 times figure. Neither cancel the other out, both are valid teachings don't you agree? So what is your real dispute here? Surely you don't claim that we forgive a non-repentant brother 490 times a day but can only forgive a repentant brother only 7 times in a day.You're missing the point, Naphal. You are assuming that because the language is similar, both accounts are referencing the exact same lesson. Don't worry, many people assume the same thing but the accounts are pretty specific. In one Peter initiates the question of how many times he (or we) are to forgive. The answer is pretty much ALWAYS (70 x 7)! Whether the brother is repentant or not! That is the lesson! ALWAYS forgive!

The account where Yeshua initiates the lesson is one of HOW to deal with a brother who in sin. First, you REBUKE him, which you seem to have some trouble with believers doing. Yeshua says to rebuke him which prayerfully will lead to him repenting. Then, of course, forgive him. Now, do you think Yeshua is saying that if your brother does not repent that you should not forgive them but stay angry? :o Of course not. These are two different yet very similar lessons. ;)

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 19th 2008, 01:47 AM
You're missing the point, Naphal. You are assuming that because the language is similar, both accounts are referencing the exact same lesson.

It's a lesson on forgiveness and repentance as I have been saying.



In one Peter initiates the question of how many times he (or we) are to forgive. The answer is pretty much ALWAYS (70 x 7)! Whether the brother is repentant or not! That is the lesson! ALWAYS forgive!

That is the lesson and it means even not to limit it to 490 times. It's a figure of speech. The other account has the same meaning albeit given in much smaller numbers. You forgive those that sin against you. God is no different when we repent.




The account where Yeshua initiates the lesson is one of HOW to deal with a brother who in sin. First, you REBUKE him, which you seem to have some trouble with believers doing.

Lets not make personal remarks. I've not said anything of the sort.



These are two different yet very similar lessons. ;)

Yes, very similar. They aren't really different other than how the lesson is taught but it's the same lesson.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 19th 2008, 02:39 AM
Two similar lessons. You can see the subtle differences if you're willing to look. So, Naphal, should we rebuke a brother who is practicing unrighteousness (sin)? That has been the whole point that we've going back and forth over in these few threads. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Naphal
Feb 19th 2008, 03:27 AM
Two similar lessons. You can see the subtle differences if you're willing to look. So, Naphal, should we rebuke a brother who is practicing unrighteousness (sin)? That has been the whole point that we've going back and forth over in these few threads. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's not really the issue but yes a brother can be rebuked if he sins against you.

SDG
Feb 19th 2008, 08:29 AM
Greetings Studyin'2Show,


Josh,

The entire point is about those who ARE comfortable in sin. Those who choose to disregard what the word of God says because of their own will; what they want. In case you don't know, there are plenty of people who are not morose or sullen or miserable concerning their sin, as David wrote in the Psalms. There are plenty who have the attitude that they will do whatever they want and that God will forgive them, and here's the kicker....they still WANT to sin. That is NOT making Him Lord of their lives. A lord is your boss and you do what he says. Our Lord should be the boss of our lives and we should do what He says.

It is my opinion that this thread has gone beyond those who are comfortable, and would be discouraging to those who truly by God's Spirit hate their sin.

:hug:

In Christ,
Josh

Studyin'2Show
Feb 19th 2008, 12:40 PM
That's not really the issue but yes a brother can be rebuked if he sins against you.That's EXACTLY the issue, Naphal! And yes, it is absolutely biblical to rebuke a brother who sins against you. However, it is ALSO biblical to rebuke/warn a brother who's sin is against God.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Ezekiel 3:20-21
20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

And this is absolutely the point of the OP. If we do not warn, even the righteous, not to sin; we are being irresponsible, we are not being loving, and their blood will be on our hands! Not a position I would like to be in but more so, them being outside of God's will is a worse position that I would hate for them to be in.

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Feb 19th 2008, 12:43 PM
Greetings Studyin'2Show,

It is my opinion that this thread has gone beyond those who are comfortable, and would be discouraging to those who truly by God's Spirit hate their sin.

:hug:

In Christ,
JoshI believe you are quite mistaken, Josh! I have seen nothing against those who hate their sin and are willing to abide in Messiah and have His word abide in them to turn from it.

ProjectPeter
Feb 19th 2008, 04:25 PM
The gospels aren't 100 percent exactly the same but this is still part of the same lesson about forgiveness and repentance. In one we have a 490 figure and in the other we only have the 7 times figure. Neither cancel the other out, both are valid teachings don't you agree? So what is your real dispute here? Surely you don't claim that we forgive a non-repentant brother 490 times a day but can only forgive a repentant brother only 7 times in a day.huh? No clue why you think I was saying that. Wasn't even at all what I am talking about.

Naphal
Feb 19th 2008, 09:33 PM
That's EXACTLY the issue, Naphal! And yes, it is absolutely biblical to rebuke a brother who sins against you. However, it is ALSO biblical to rebuke/warn a brother who's sin is against God.

Sure but we also have to be careful not to be hypocrites like the mob that was accusing the woman who was caught in the act! She was definitely guilty of the crime but her "rebukers" weren't fit to rebuke her because they were sinners as well.


John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 20th 2008, 02:26 AM
Sure but we also have to be careful not to be hypocrites like the mob that was accusing the woman who was caught in the act! She was definitely guilty of the crime but her "rebukers" weren't fit to rebuke her because they were sinners as well.

John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.Whose accusing anyone? Whose mobbing someone desiring to stone them? If you accept some of scripture you should accept ALL of scripture. It is not my job to condemn anyone. However, there is One who will. We ARE supposed to rebuke and warn believers so they can turn from their sin. That is biblical. How can you have a problem with that? If someone is living in a lifestyle of sin, they need to judge themselves. That IS the point.

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 20th 2008, 07:11 AM
Whose accusing anyone? Whose mobbing someone desiring to stone them?

It's a symbolic stoning under the name of "rebuking". They wanted to rebuke her for her sin yet they didn't want to be rebuked for their own. He that is without sin cast the first rebuking stone. I'm just saying it's a very thin line between rebuking someone but needing to be rebuked right back by them.



If you accept some of scripture you should accept ALL of scripture.

you sure enjoy rebuking don't ya? :)

I accept all of it which is why I presented an example from scripture of people that wanted to rebuke but were equally guilty and really had no right to rebuke.



It is not my job to condemn anyone. However, there is One who will. We ARE supposed to rebuke and warn believers so they can turn from their sin. That is biblical. How can you have a problem with that?

I have a problem with it being too heavy handed and done in too much of a self righteous manner. Any rebuke to warn should be done in a loving and gentle manner and should be done over serious things not smaller ones that we all are guilty of.




If someone is living in a lifestyle of sin, they need to judge themselves. That IS the point.

Yes well that crowd of men felt this woman was living a lifestyle of sin and they sure wanted to make her know how they felt.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 20th 2008, 11:25 AM
It's a symbolic stoning under the name of "rebuking". They wanted to rebuke her for her sin yet they didn't want to be rebuked for their own. He that is without sin cast the first rebuking stone. I'm just saying it's a very thin line between rebuking someone but needing to be rebuked right back by them.

you sure enjoy rebuking don't ya? :)

I accept all of it which is why I presented an example from scripture of people that wanted to rebuke but were equally guilty and really had no right to rebuke.

I have a problem with it being too heavy handed and done in too much of a self righteous manner. Any rebuke to warn should be done in a loving and gentle manner and should be done over serious things not smaller ones that we all are guilty of.

Yes well that crowd of men felt this woman was living a lifestyle of sin and they sure wanted to make her know how they felt.No, lovingly rebuking a brother or sister in Messiah is NOT in any way a symbolic stoning! :o My goodness, what type of fellowship are you used to? I think you are reading much more in than what is being said.

Nope. Don't like rebuking at all, but I will if the situation calls for it biblically. Like spanking my kids; it's not something you ever WANT to do.

That scripture doesn't say we shouldn't rebuke a brother or sister. Yeshua did not condemn her but He sure told her to go and SIN NO MORE. She could have been offended. Saying, "Who are you to tell me what to do and not do? That's judging me!" :rolleyes: No, she was too grateful and realized that she was indeed walking in sin and I'd like to think that after the experience with the Savior, she turned from that lifestyle of sin.

Who's being heavy handed? This is a message board. You have no idea how people's views are put into practice. From what different people have shared, it is not with any great joy and it follows the biblical model. What's the problem with that? Maybe you've dealt with someone in the past who was heavy handed and just assume you're conversing with someone like them. :dunno:

Naphal
Feb 20th 2008, 10:29 PM
No, lovingly rebuking a brother or sister in Messiah is NOT in any way a symbolic stoning!

Of course not a loving rebuke but any other type could be considered that way.




That scripture doesn't say we shouldn't rebuke a brother or sister. Yeshua did not condemn her but He sure told her to go and SIN NO MORE.



Only God was qualified to give her the rebuke and spared her from any judgement.



She could have been offended. Saying, "Who are you to tell me what to do and not do? That's judging me!"

She had every right to say that to anyone other than God.



Who's being heavy handed? This is a message board. You have no idea how people's views are put into practice. From what different people have shared, it is not with any great joy and it follows the biblical model. What's the problem with that?

You asked me what issues I have with rebuking and I told you I don't like heavy handed rebuking. I've seen this type of thing more often than mercy and love so I speak out against it.




Maybe you've dealt with someone in the past who was heavy handed and just assume you're conversing with someone like them. :dunno:


Maybe we don't need to speculate about others personal experiences. Lets just talk about the scriptures and what is happening in them. You and I believe it is right to rebuke a brother but I wanted to add that we cannot be hypocrites when we do this or else we turn into that mob, not on the level they were but we move in that direction and I believe that is wrong.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 12:04 AM
Of course not a loving rebuke but any other type could be considered that way.

Only God was qualified to give her the rebuke and spared her from any judgement.

She had every right to say that to anyone other than God.

You asked me what issues I have with rebuking and I told you I don't like heavy handed rebuking. I've seen this type of thing more often than mercy and love so I speak out against it.

Maybe we don't need to speculate about others personal experiences. Lets just talk about the scriptures and what is happening in them. You and I believe it is right to rebuke a brother but I wanted to add that we cannot be hypocrites when we do this or else we turn into that mob, not on the level they were but we move in that direction and I believe that is wrong.I don't like the split up quote-reply-quote-reply posts so I'll address each point in succession. ;)

What only type of rebuke is there for a believer to give? Of course it's to be a rebuke tempered with love. That's what we've been talking about here but you seem to think we're looking to string someone up with hate. :o

No, not biblically. God was NOT the only one qualified to give her rebuke. We've already shown scripture that tells us that is our job to rebuke and warn them so saying only God can rebuke goes against what scripture tells us.

Not if she was being wise. (see scriptures to follow)

First you say that you have experience dealing with, it seems, heavy-handed unloving rebukes. Then you say we shouldn't speculate about experiences. Naphal, I don't know if you realize it but it is quite obvious that you have dealt with someone who has dealt with things like this in a very UNBIBLICAL way. It is coloring the way you are interpreting scripture which makes it difficult to discuss this without addressing that issue. Everything I have spoken of in this thread has been biblical but you are reacting to the words as if you are dealing with someone who is being mean spirited. :( Hopefully, we can get past that and just look at what scriptures says.

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 12:16 AM
Here's some scriptural backing for US rebuking a brother or sister.

Proverbs 13:18 - Poverty and shame will come to him who disdains correction, But he who regards a rebuke will be honored.

Proverbs 15:31-32
31 The ear that hears the rebukes of life
Will abide among the wise.
32 He who disdains instruction despises his own soul,
But he who heeds rebuke gets understanding.

Proverbs 17:10 - Rebuke is more effective for a wise man than a hundred blows on a fool.

Proverbs 19:25 - Strike a scoffer, and the simple will become wary; Rebuke one who has understanding, and he will discern knowledge.

Proverbs 24:25 - But those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, And a good blessing will come upon them.

Proverbs 27:5 - Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed.

Proverb 28:23 - He who rebukes a man will find more favor afterward than he who flatters with the tongue.


This was with just a quick look through Proverbs. There is much more that shows us that if we truly LOVE those who are sinning we will REBUKE them.

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 01:35 AM
I don't like the split up quote-reply-quote-reply posts so I'll address each point in succession. ;)

I know. I prefer it because it mimics actual conversation and it also helps me from missing things that need to be commented upon.




What only type of rebuke is there for a believer to give? Of course it's to be a rebuke tempered with love. That's what we've been talking about here but you seem to think we're looking to string someone up with hate. :o

That is the only type a believer should give but surely you don't think someone has never over rebuked or was too self righteous when they did it? In my experience people tend to over rebuke and do it in a way that seems that they have forgotten that they sin and are in need of rebuke. I've seen them swing the "paddle of discipline and correction" around like a baseball bat....so it's noteworthy to mention this in any discussion about rebuking someone for their sins.





No, not biblically. God was NOT the only one qualified to give her rebuke. We've already shown scripture that tells us that is our job to rebuke and warn them so saying only God can rebuke goes against what scripture tells us.

We have to find a balance between rebuking but being hypocrites and not being worthy to rebuke. Like Christ said, he that is without sin throw the first stone. Perhaps the difference is that a brother should be rebuked properly by loved ones or those closer to him rather than strangers?



Not if she was being wise. (see scriptures to follow)

I have no idea what this is related to.



First you say that you have experience dealing with, it seems, heavy-handed unloving rebukes. Then you say we shouldn't speculate about experiences. Naphal, I don't know if you realize it but it is quite obvious that you have dealt with someone who has dealt with things like this in a very UNBIBLICAL way.

I'm sure we all have but I take offense that you bring in the idea that the only reason I am in this discussion with this position is because I'm damaged goods or something. That is a tactic that shouldn't be done in a discussion in order to prove one's own position. It is not important what experiences I have had or have not had. I won't be commenting on anything else that is personal in nature other than to state that it is improper to introduce into a discussion.



Everything I have spoken of in this thread has been biblical but you are reacting to the words as if you are dealing with someone who is being mean spirited.

We all have scriptures to stand on. But, in my opinion you are not fully considering or hearing the other side of things where we have to be more humble and less rebuking and understand that people have sins (even we sin ourselves) and that sometimes it is not correct to rebuke them in a judgmental fashion. Certainly there is a purpose and time for rebuking but IMO most people abuse it and don't understand the complexity of it.



This was with just a quick look through Proverbs. There is much more that shows us that if we truly LOVE those who are sinning we will REBUKE them.

And as I have said before anyone who is prepared to rebuke a brother needs to be prepared to be rebuked right back for their own sins they commit as well. It isn't a one way street where one supposedly sinles person rebukes a sinful person. Both parties are guilty of sin and can be rebuked.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 01:50 AM
I have no idea what this is related to.Just for clarity. You pushed me to the whole quote-reply thing. :lol: For future reference, I'll just go point by point so that was the next line. :)

Studyin'2Show said:
She could have been offended. Saying, "Who are you to tell me what to do and not do? That's judging me!"Naphal said:
She had every right to say that to anyone other than God.Then Studyin'2Show said:
Not if she was being wise. (see scriptures to follow)Then I posted scriptures to show that a wise person takes rebuke from others. ;) Now you get it, right? :D

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 01:59 AM
Just for clarity. You pushed me to the whole quote-reply thing. :lol: For future reference, I'll just go point by point so that was the next line. :)

Hey, I really appreciate that! It helps the flow and makes it easier to reply.




Studyin'2Show said:
Quote:
She could have been offended. Saying, "Who are you to tell me what to do and not do? That's judging me!"
Naphal said:
Quote:
She had every right to say that to anyone other than God.
Then Studyin'2Show said:
Quote:
Not if she was being wise. (see scriptures to follow)

Then I posted scriptures to show that a wise person takes rebuke from others. ;) Now you get it, right? :D



But that depends on who is doing the rebuking and how they do it etc etc. In the example of the woman and the mob, she didn't have to accept their rebukes or judgements. They weren't fit to even remain there.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 02:24 AM
Okay, Naphal, let me just make it clear that I have not intended to imply that you are 'damaged goods' as you said. No, not what I meant. Here's the deal, I don't have a big background in church. :no: Not at all! So, I don't have any reference to this type of thing other than what scripture tells me. Really. Every fellowship experience I've had in the 9+ years that I have been a believer, have been good, biblical experiences. So, that 'experience' coupled with scripture is what I have been talking about.

We absolutely are supposed to rebuke a brother or sister. And yes, we must absolutely be ready to receive rebuke when we need correcting. That is totally the point! :)

God Bless!

Athanasius
Feb 21st 2008, 02:26 AM
The mob had set up the woman, according to the thought of more than a few theologians. Which was the large issue with that situation aside from the sin.

They were also doing a lot more than rebuking or judging, they were also going to be playing executioner. If we waited until the first sinless person to rebuke someone using scripture, we'd never get around to it, because there's no one like that (anymore). Do I have any business enacting judgment on someone because of sin? Almost all of the time, no. But we do have a responsibility to point it out in accordance with scripture.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 02:48 AM
Okay, Naphal, let me just make it clear that I have not intended to imply that you are 'damaged goods' as you said. No, not what I meant. Here's the deal, I don't have a big background in church. :no: Not at all! So, I don't have any reference to this type of thing other than what scripture tells me. Really. Every fellowship experience I've had in the 9+ years that I have been a believer, have been good, biblical experiences. So, that 'experience' coupled with scripture is what I have been talking about.



Sometimes we see things in only black and white when there is a bit more to it than that. You've been a Christian 9 years and that's great. I've been one for roughly 37 and remember a time when I was very passionate and zealous against sin and sinners and rebuked as good as the best! But i learned that sometimes we see what needs to be rebuked in others a little more strongly than what needs be. Over time we learn compassion and mercy and find that rebuking is something done in special cases and done gently and best done by someone close to the person. But when a person knows their sin, or has been rebuked then you have to let them deal with it as it is between them and God.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 03:31 AM
Sometimes we see things in only black and white when there is a bit more to it than that. You've been a Christian 9 years and that's great. I've been one for roughly 37 and remember a time when I was very passionate and zealous against sin and sinners and rebuked as good as the best! But i learned that sometimes we see what needs to be rebuked in others a little more strongly than what needs be. Over time we learn compassion and mercy and find that rebuking is something done in special cases and done gently and best done by someone close to the person. But when a person knows their sin, or has been rebuked then you have to let them deal with it as it is between them and God.You are assuming I don't have compassion and mercy now, aren't you? ;) Once again, I have to say experience has a lot to do with this discussion. I have yet to see, in a fellowship situation, anyone over-rebuke someone; or rebuke them with malice or lack of love and mercy. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER! I also have yet to see someone become offended at a loving rebuke. In my 40 years of life I have seen PLENTY of unrighteous rebuke in the world. Those who are still worldly and call themselves believers may have an issue with this, but one who is abiding in Messiah, that has His word abiding in them, should not. ;)

BTW, Don't let the 9 years fool you. Almost immediately my hubby and I began working as Youth Directors, we've been very heavy into ministry since, including our present house fellowship and street ministry. I have no trouble following what the Bible says clearly that we should do. And as I posted previously with scriptural backup, we as believers, if we love them, ARE supposed to rebuke brothers and sisters in a lifestyle sin.

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 03:41 AM
You are assuming I don't have compassion and mercy now, aren't you?


No, I havent addressed things like this directly to you. Just speaking in general.




;) Once again, I have to say experience has a lot to do with this discussion. I have yet to see, in a fellowship situation, anyone over-rebuke someone; or rebuke them with malice or lack of love and mercy.


That's good but don't let that lead you to believe it doesn't occur elsewhere.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 11:20 AM
That's good but don't let that lead you to believe it doesn't occur elsewhere.I don't live my life following 'elsewhere'. I live my life following Messiah Yeshua and the word of God. Period! This topic discussion should be based on how to follow the word of God RIGHTLY, not how some people somewhere may follow it wrongly.

God Bless!

the sinner
Mar 7th 2008, 10:19 PM
Notice, it says "THE Sinner," not "A sinner."

The translators miss the point of the Greek.

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

For me to pray to God "Be merciful to me A sinner" is equivalent to making the argument, I am one of many sinners, therefore no worse than anyone else.

But the focus of the man's prayer is "In this relationship Father, You are my God and I am the sinner. Be merciful to me." It is one of humility and recognition that sinlessness is not a human trait, it is a "washed in the blood of the lamb" trait.

There is no such thing as a sin I cannot quit. There is only sins I commit for which I quit trying to repent.

No one ever went to Hell for sinning. All who go to hell go for failing to repent. Or after repenting, and sinning again, fail to keep on keeping on.

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 01:09 AM
Notice, it says "THE Sinner," not "A sinner."

The translators miss the point of the Greek.

Really? Greek scholars who spent the majority of their lives understanding this dead language and it's rules missed the point of the greek?






There is no such thing as a sin I cannot quit. There is only sins I commit for which I quit trying to repent.



No one ever went to Hell for sinning. All who go to hell go for failing to repent. Or after repenting, and sinning again, fail to keep on keeping on.




Repentance is the key to the door of salvation for us sinners.

ProjectPeter
Mar 8th 2008, 04:07 AM
Really? Greek scholars who spent the majority of their lives understanding this dead language and it's rules missed the point of the greek?




Are you sure you want to use the example of a hypocritical sinner that ends up in hell as one who was showing humility in that statement? I assure you he was not being humble! He was being self righteous!






Repentance is the key to the door of salvation for us sinners.

Um... you might actually look that passage up because you're way off there and you're confusing the two characters in that parable. Read what Jesus says about this man that you call "self-righteous.

Luke 18:13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me, the sinner!´
14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 07:10 AM
Yeah, I confused that for another passage. Nevermind!


Um... you might actually look that passage up because you're way off there and you're confusing the two characters in that parable. Read what Jesus says about this man that you call "self-righteous.

Luke 18:13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me, the sinner!´
14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

the sinner
Mar 9th 2008, 01:12 PM
Really? Greek scholars who spent the majority of their lives understanding this dead language and it's rules missed the point of the greek?


Many lessons are lost to the English reader, because the translators were so busy following an agenda they did not have time for the parts that were not important to their developement of doctrines contrary to scripture.

One more example should suffice to make the point.

John 21:

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


I have heard sermons in which the preacher said that since Peter denied Jesus three times, Jesus is making Peter admit his love three times. THAT makes me mad. THAT would make Jesus as vindictively revengeful as any sinner among us. THAT is not the Jesus I know.


What is happening in the Greek is more subtle and much deeper in meaning.


So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, agape thou me (Are you devoted to me) more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I Phileo (have affection for) thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.


16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, agape (are you devoted to) thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I Phileo (have affection for) thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, Phileo (Do you have affection for) thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Phileo (do you have affection for) thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I Phileo (have affection for) thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


The reason Peter was grieved was Jesus questioned Peter's affection when it became obvious it had not developed into devotion after a reasonable time.


This is completely passed over in the English translation. And there is no excuse for "Greek scholars" to miss such in their haste to "prove a point by translation."

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 09:59 PM
Many lessons are lost to the English reader, because the translators were so busy following an agenda they did not have time for the parts that were not important to their developement of doctrines contrary to scripture.

One more example should suffice to make the point.

John 21:

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


I have heard sermons in which the preacher said that since Peter denied Jesus three times, Jesus is making Peter admit his love three times. THAT makes me mad. THAT would make Jesus as vindictively revengeful as any sinner among us. THAT is not the Jesus I know.


What is happening in the Greek is more subtle and much deeper in meaning.


So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, agape thou me (Are you devoted to me) more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I Phileo (have affection for) thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.


16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, agape (are you devoted to) thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I Phileo (have affection for) thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, Phileo (Do you have affection for) thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Phileo (do you have affection for) thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I Phileo (have affection for) thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


The reason Peter was grieved was Jesus questioned Peter's affection when it became obvious it had not developed into devotion after a reasonable time.



This is completely passed over in the English translation. And there is no excuse for "Greek scholars" to miss such in their haste to "prove a point by translation."



There is absolutely no difference between the translation and yours.

Roelof
Jun 27th 2008, 11:38 AM
If we persist in "seriou sins" we will end in Hell, it is no joke.