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Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 09:04 PM
someone in a dif thread said:


If you look back through the Hebrew Scripture, you'll find that there are no sacrifices described for intentional sins. They all say something like, If a man sins unintentionally...and so on.

Any comments?

Buck shot
Feb 11th 2008, 09:35 PM
How could we describe intentional and unintentional? I know that

(James 4:17) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
but Jesus was (and is) the sacrifice for all sin. I take that as ALL SIN! :pp
Not saying we should chose to live in sin. I am sure we could show with many verses just about David where God forgave him of many sins that when David did them he knew it was wrong.

(1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 09:55 PM
How could we describe intentional and unintentional? I know that

(James 4:17) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
but Jesus was (and is) the sacrifice for all sin. I take that as ALL SIN! :pp
Not saying we should chose to live in sin. I am sure we could show with many verses just about David where God forgave him of many sins that when David did them he knew it was wrong.

(1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I meant more along the lines of OT scripture. Were "intentional sins" not forgiven? Aren't intentional sins the majority of the sins in the world? How often do we accidentally or unintentionally sin??

Slug1
Feb 11th 2008, 10:46 PM
How often do we accidentally or unintentionally sin??Well, until a person reads the Bible and is "informed" what is and isn't sinful... can then determine what is intentional sin vs. unintentional sin.

Scripture clearly stipulates what is sinful and once this is understood and a person who has put faith in Christ and doesn't offer these sins up to the Lord and continues to do the actions that the Bible has clearly laid out as sin... are living in sin.

Ya just have to separate our born sin vs. our freewilled sin. I can't offer up Adams and Eve's sin to God but I can offer up any sin that "I" willfully do as I live.

Anyone being sinful and offering it up to God for forgiveness and then at that time forward doing their utmost "not" to repeat the sin... are being repentant.

By asking for forgiveness and willfully continuing the sinful act or nature... why ask for forgiveness if you don't intend to stop the sinful act?

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 11:02 PM
Well, until a person reads the Bible and is "informed" what is and isn't sinful... can then determine what is intentional sin vs. unintentional sin.

Lets narrow this down to Christians that know the law and know right from wrong. We aren't talking about those without the law where no sin exists.




Scripture clearly stipulates what is sinful and once this is understood and a person who has put faith in Christ and doesn't offer these sins up to the Lord and continues to do the actions that the Bible has clearly laid out as sin... are living in sin.

And what if they do "offer them up"?



Ya just have to separate our born sin vs. our freewilled sin. I can't offer up Adams and Eve's sin to God but I can offer up any sin that "I" willfully do as I live.

This is what I have been saying. This is the process of repenting after a sin. Any time you commit this or another sin as a Christian you should repent and try to avoid it, but no condemnation comes up those that re-commit the sin.



Anyone being sinful and offering it up to God for forgiveness and then at that time forward doing their utmost "not" to repeat the sin... are being repentant.

That's not the only example of repentance. That's one of the most ideal situations which few obtain.



By asking for forgiveness and willfully continuing the sinful act or nature... why ask for forgiveness if you don't intend to stop the sinful act?

Because your heart desires to be made clean by Christ of course. This is the differences between a Christian that sins and a non-Christian that sins!

RJ Mac
Feb 11th 2008, 11:16 PM
It is stated in Lev.4:2,22,27; 5:15,18; 22:14; Num.15:24-28; 35:11,15; Dt.4:42; 19:4; Jos.20:3,9; Unintentional sins.

Therefore it seems intentional sins don't have forgiveness in the Jewish system. The Jews were raised knowing their scriptures and knowing what God expected from them.

Now does this understanding gives insight to Pharisaical behavior as to why they identified sinners and had nothing to do with them, because they sinned purposely and if you sinned purposely then you were lost, for there was no sacrifice for your disobedience.

But along comes Jesus from Galilee and He is forgiving people of all sins? Man they got excited because now they had their first chance to get back with God because there was no sacrifice for intentional sins.

Does this reasoning make sense, I would like to hear discussion on this.

RJ

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 11:20 PM
Therefore it seems intentional sins don't have forgiveness in the Jewish system. The Jews were raised knowing their scriptures and knowing what God expected from them.

No.


Leviticus 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
Leviticus 5:3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.
Leviticus 5:4 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
Leviticus 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
Leviticus 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

This is one of many examples of intentional sins being dealt with according to the regulations of the OT.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 11th 2008, 11:31 PM
Was David's sins unintentional?

Was Moses sins unintentional?

Was Abrahams sins unintentional?

What about most of Israel, who often committed several intentional sins. Did not God may times, say that if they turned back to Him, that He would forgive them?

Sold Out
Feb 11th 2008, 11:54 PM
someone in a dif thread said:



Any comments?

There were sin offerings for unintentional sins. It would be like a child telling a lie, but that child doesn't know what a lie is? Same thing.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering." Leviticus 4:1-3

Athanasius
Feb 11th 2008, 11:55 PM
Was David's sins unintentional?

Was Moses sins unintentional?

Was Abrahams sins unintentional?

What about most of Israel, who often committed several intentional sins. Did not God may times, say that if they turned back to Him, that He would forgive them?

You bring an interesting set of points to a thread which is arguing over something irrelevant. . . . (But I like your points!)

Naphal
Feb 11th 2008, 11:58 PM
There were sin offerings for unintentional sins. It would be like a child telling a lie, but that child doesn't know what a lie is? Same thing.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering." Leviticus 4:1-3

Yes but the claim is that intentional sins were unforgiveable. That the sin offerings and forgiveness was only for unintentional sins.

Sold Out
Feb 12th 2008, 12:11 AM
Yes but the claim is that intentional sins were unforgiveable. That the sin offerings and forgiveness was only for unintentional sins.

OH...sorry I misunderstood the question. Leviticus ch. 5 tells us about the sacrifice for the trespass offering. There were two offerings to deal with sin:

1. Sin offering - unintentional
2. Trespass offering - intentional

Here are some notes from my study bible on the five offerings:

a. Note - The voluntary offerings (See – Lev 22:17-21) were offered to God out of appreciation for what the LORD (i.e., CHRIST) had done for them when He saved them out of Egypt (See - Exo 13:21,22). The burnt offering pictured CHRIST in all His perfections (i.e., without blemish – vss 3,10) dedicating Himself voluntarily (See - Jn 10:17,18) and entirely to God (i.e., burn all – vs 9) in our place (See – II Cor 5:21). Just as CHRIST voluntarily choose to bring us Christianity, so we who have become Christians through faith in CHRIST must voluntarily choose to live it (See - II Cor 4:16 & Rom 12:1,2)! Of the five offerings, three were voluntary (the burnt, meal, and peace) and two were mandatory (the sin and trespass) Whereas the burnt, meal, and peace offerings were used to approach God for the purpose of maintaining daily fellowship, the sin and trespass offerings were used to approach God for the purpose of restoring fellowship that had been broken (See - I Jn 1:9).

RJ Mac
Feb 12th 2008, 01:13 AM
Nephal - Lev.5:1ff all these he mentions are unintentional sins, are they not? "if he is unaware". Could you show with scriptures what the sacrifice for intentional sin is.

Partaker - David's sin with Bathsheba and killing Uriah was intentional and his life was in ruin because of it. Not until Nathan showed up was he forgiven by God, not by a sacrifice. 2Sam.12:13;
Moses sins of striking the stone was unintentional, done in anger.
Abraham did not have the Law, to know the difference.
The sins Israel committed had no forgiveness therefore God said I will forgive if you turn. God gave them an option that was not made available in the sacrificial system.

I am not claiming there is no sacrifice for intentional sins, I am asking if there is and where is it? For if there isn't then what Jesus did in forgiving sins was even a greater revelation than I originally thought for the Jews of His day.

RJ

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 03:27 AM
I am not claiming there is no sacrifice for intentional sins, I am asking if there is and where is it? For if there isn't then what Jesus did in forgiving sins was even a greater revelation than I originally thought for the Jews of His day.

RJ


I have already posted one example that took me 30 secs to locate. I assume there are a great many more.

Souled Out
Feb 12th 2008, 04:04 AM
God never wanted sacrifices for sin and He told His people repeatedly.

Jeremiah 7:22-23
22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
23"But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'

Psalm 40:6
6Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Psalm 51:15-17
15 O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Hebrews 10:8
8After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them"

Hosea 6:6
What I want is mercy, not sacrifice.

Isaiah 1:11-16
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me?" sayeth the Lord. "I am full
of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or of he-goats...bring no more vain oblations.... Your new moon and your appointed feasts my soul hateth;...and when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.

Proverbs 21:3
Deeds of compassion and kindness toward all creation are of greater significance to God than sacrifices: "To do charity and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice".

God didn't institute the practice of sacrificial offerings. It is no where in the Ten Commandments and the first time its mentioned in Leviticus it is mentioned as an optional practice.

When God chose Israel the people were already heavily influenced by neighboring, idolatrous nations and as such worshiping via sacrifices was how they (as well as almost every nation on earth) worshiped deity. God tolerated the sacrifices and essentially told His people, "Look, I don't want your sacrifices but if you're going to do it, then do it like this." That distinguished the worship to Yahweh vs. pagan gods.

The sacrifices were for man to feel less guilty about the committed sin/wrong-doing. The OT sacrifices never removed sin - they just made man feel better about it and Israel's sacrifices were often with no love or mercy attached which is what God wanted.

So the sacrifices were to appease man, not God. Like Adam, when we sin, the first thing we want to do is retreat from God and hide. We donít feel worthy to be in His presence. God sent His Son to deal with our sin problem once and for all. Thatís how much He loves and wants us in relationship with Him.

Sin happens. Repent, God still loves you, move on quickly. Thatís what Heís always wanted and what Israel could never give Him. The more we dwell on the sin that the Father has already forgiven, the more we empower sin. Sin really is just a nuisance and not worth more than a nanosecond of our lives and time.

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 04:19 AM
God never wanted sacrifices for sin and He told His people repeatedly.

God didn't institute the practice of sacrificial offerings. It is no where in the Ten Commandments and the first time its mentioned in Leviticus it is mentioned as an optional practice.

None of that is true.


Leviticus 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
Leviticus 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
Leviticus 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Leviticus 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Leviticus 1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Souled Out
Feb 12th 2008, 04:34 AM
None of that is true.


Leviticus 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
Leviticus 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
Leviticus 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Leviticus 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Leviticus 1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

God gave the conditions If a sacrifice was to be given to distinguish it from that to pagan gods.

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 04:35 AM
Notice the red....

That doesn't change anything. God has ordained this.

Souled Out
Feb 12th 2008, 04:39 AM
That doesn't change anything. God has ordained this.

God allowed it.

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 04:46 AM
God allowed it.

Ordained.


Exodus 20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
Exodus 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

Souled Out
Feb 12th 2008, 05:18 AM
Ordained.

Exodus 20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
Exodus 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

The people were afraid of God, just as people are afraid of Him today. Israel was already so knee deep into idolatry and sacrificing.

God repeatedly says that He never wanted sacrifices, never spoke it to their ancestors and was not pleased with the blood of animals.

In verses 1-17 God gave the Ten Commandments. He didn't mention sacrifices because it was not first and foremost.

In verses 18-21 the people tell Moses how terrified they are of God so Moses speaks on their behalf.

In verse 22 God stipulates how sacrifices are to be given in response to the people's fears.

Sacrifices are man's idea - not God's. Man needs sacrifices for his conscience. The people were afraid of God so He met them where they were. It's what He did and continues to do for relationship.

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 05:23 AM
You're still wrong. God instituted animal sacrifices for the first sin in the garden. It remained in effect until Christ was the final sacrifice.





The people were afraid of God, just as people are afraid of Him today. Israel was already so knee deep into idolatry and sacrificing.

God repeatedly says that He never wanted sacrifices, never spoke it to their ancestors and was not pleased with the blood of animals.

In verses 1-17 God gave the Ten Commandments. He didn't mention sacrifices because it was not first and foremost.

In verses 18-21 the people tell Moses how terrified they are of God so Moses speaks on their behalf.

In verse 22 God stipulates how sacrifices are to be given in response to the people's fears.

Sacrifices are man's idea - not God's. Man needs sacrifices for his conscience. The people were afraid of God so He met them where they were. It's what He did and continues to do for relationship.

Souled Out
Feb 12th 2008, 06:07 AM
You're still wrong. God instituted animal sacrifices for the first sin in the garden. It remained in effect until Christ was the final sacrifice.

As I've stated before God meets us where we are. God didn't require sacrifice, He provided sacrifice in response to man's (Adam and Eve's) fears. Israel didn't want to approach God out of fear. Adam and Eve hid themselves out of fear.

Sin and fear keeps us from approaching God and the only thing that satisfies us is sacrifice. Today we do it with dead works.

Man wanted blood, not God.

Psalm 40:6
6Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Hebrews 10:8
8After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them"

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 06:12 AM
Man wanted blood, not God.



God wanted blood, not man.


Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Naphal
Feb 12th 2008, 06:17 AM
Psalm 40:6
6Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Hebrews 10:8
8After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them"




Gill

Psa 40:6 - Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire,.... These were desired, willed, and appointed by God, and that very early, even from the times of our first parents; and, when performed aright, were acceptable to God, quite down to the times of the Messiah: indeed, when offered without faith in Christ, and with a wicked mind, to merit any thing at the hand of God, they were always abominable to him; and he likewise ever preferred love to himself, and of the neighbour, obedience to the commands of the moral law, and works of mercy to men, before all the sacrifices of the ceremonial law

BHS
Feb 12th 2008, 12:43 PM
I am not claiming there is no sacrifice for intentional sins, I am asking if there is and where is it? For if there isn't then what Jesus did in forgiving sins was even a greater revelation than I originally thought for the Jews of His day.

RJ

As I understand it God would not allow an innocent animal to be sacrificed for intentional sin and so it left a desire in the hearts of the Israelites for a greater sacrifice, knowing that it was missing. In my way of thinking too, it might also have been a deterrent for intentional sin. This does not mean however, that every intentional sin was left unforgiven, because God in His mercy could forgive -- as He forgave David of his sins. It wasn't the blood of lambs and goats that actually did the removing of sin, but the mercy and grace of God and the certainty of that final sacrifice. The sacrifice of animals was to show the cost of sin (death of an innocent), but it took a much greater sacrifice to remedy sin. So when Y'shua came, He became that final sacrifice that covers all sin, including intentional as well as unintentional.

Yes, I think you are insightful. Y'shua's death was the missing sacrifice they should have known in there hearts was required.

God bless,
BHS

RJ Mac
Feb 12th 2008, 03:16 PM
God established sacrifice for sins, so man could stay in fellowship with God. Notice how Abel's was acceptable and Cain's wasn't because his had no blood? Heb.11;4; Then when Noah sacrificed, it was a soothing aroma to God Gen.9:21; I believe the aroma was not physically pleasing but it was the obedience of Noah that was pleasing.
Heb.9:22 And according to the Law, almost all things are purified with blood and without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

But God doesn't desire the sacrifice of animals Heb.10:8 Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings and offerings for sin You did not desire nor had pleasure in them... - of course not - for an animals sacrifice means man has sinned, God is not pleased with our sins but has provided a way to stay in fellowship. Intentional sin is worthy of death, with no sacrifice for it.

But the blood of animals was not adequate, for God a perfect sacrifice had to be offered, our Lord, freely went to the cross and freely died for our sins . Heb.9:11-15;
It took God Himself, to die for our sins, to touch our hearts, the love we see on the cross is able to cause our hearts to be circumcised, it is able to generate that new creature locked up in every one of us, it is that act and only that act upon the cross that sets us free when we respond in obedience to it. God knew this and planned it before He created this world.

"He touched me, Oh he touched me, and Oh the joy that floods my soul, something happened and now I know, He touched me and made me whole."
When did He touch you, when you understood the love He has for you from at cross? Sacrifices were essential, they pointed to the Messiah.

No more need for sacrifices today - Heb.9:26...but now once at the end of the ages, he has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
All sin can be cleansed by the blood, the unintentional and the intentional. "What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus!"

RJ