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DanielF
Feb 13th 2008, 01:05 AM
If I look at the way that Paul outlines meetings, it looks quite different to what we have come to expect in church!

For instance, "...When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church." (1 Cor 14:26)

Shure there must be "rules" else we would have chaos!
I'm trying to find a way to have a church where we can be the body with Christ (not a pastor/reverend/priest) as the head!

Any thoughts?

tgallison
Feb 13th 2008, 01:18 AM
If I look at the way that Paul outlines meetings, it looks quite different to what we have come to expect in church!

For instance, "...When you come together, eceryone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation.all of these must be done for the strengthening of the church." (1 Cor 14:26)

Shure there must be "rules" else we would have chaos!
I'm trying to find a way to have a church where we can be the body with Christ (not a pastor/reverend/priest) as the head!

Any thoughts?

DanielF Greetings

Politically incorrect---you are going to get beat up.

menJesus
Feb 13th 2008, 03:49 AM
Find a church with a pastor who understands the functions of the church.

DanielF
Feb 13th 2008, 10:00 AM
I'm not refering to the five-fold ministry-gifts, or even the other spiritual gifts.

Imagine a worship sevice where the congregation is the worship team and anyone can pick up an instrument. No stage!

What about a church meeting without a pulpit! Where everyone is free to shate their revelations?

DanielF
Feb 13th 2008, 10:09 AM
Paul wrote that the end of the ministry giftings are:
"until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." (Eph 4:13)

This won't happen when 90% of those going to church are warming the seats, listening to the pastor preaching?

How do we get everyone invoved?

Duane Morse
Feb 13th 2008, 10:19 AM
That is the enigma, after all.

If we are each taught by the same Holy Spirit, yet we each see different things in different ways...
How are we to be all reconciled with one another?


As far as I can see, there is no unity within the Body of Christ.
And a house divided, cannot stand.

menJesus
Feb 13th 2008, 11:58 AM
That is the enigma, after all.

If we are each taught by the same Holy Spirit, yet we each see different things in different ways...
How are we to be all reconciled with one another?


As far as I can see, there is no unity within the Body of Christ.
And a house divided, cannot stand.

Now THAT`S a question worth debating, for sure!

Sold Out
Feb 13th 2008, 03:14 PM
If I look at the way that Paul outlines meetings, it looks quite different to what we have come to expect in church!

For instance, "...When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church." (1 Cor 14:26)

Shure there must be "rules" else we would have chaos!
I'm trying to find a way to have a church where we can be the body with Christ (not a pastor/reverend/priest) as the head!

Any thoughts?

"Let all things be done decently and in order." I Corinthians 14:40

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." II Cor 3:17


We see that Paul has given us two things to remember - there should be order, and there should be liberty.

God gave us the requirements for a bishop (pastor) in II Timothy 3. There must have been a reason that He set out these requirements? There are men called to lead.

Whispering Grace
Feb 13th 2008, 07:22 PM
If I look at the way that Paul outlines meetings, it looks quite different to what we have come to expect in church!

For instance, "...When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church." (1 Cor 14:26)

Shure there must be "rules" else we would have chaos!
I'm trying to find a way to have a church where we can be the body with Christ (not a pastor/reverend/priest) as the head!

Any thoughts?

My church is the closest I have found to being what you describe (it's a Pentecostal/Holiness church). You're not going to find a bunch of people in my church sitting passively in their seats while the pastor stands up and preaches, which is exactly what happened in every other church I've been in.

As I always say "Church is not a spectator sport". I probably don't spend more than 5-10 minutes in my seat during the entire church service. I mean, seriously....Jesus Christ is the Lord of my pastor, but HE IS MY LORD TOO! And I go to church to worship Him, not to sit idly by while others "do all the work", so to speak.

Athanasius
Feb 13th 2008, 07:27 PM
You find leadership throughout the Bible.
So, it is needed. But, at the same time Christ is the head of every church.

Having everyone spewing their own theologies will destroy the church a lot quicker than it's being destroyed now.

Whispering Grace
Feb 13th 2008, 07:34 PM
You find leadership throughout the Bible.
So, it is needed. But, at the same time Christ is the head of every church.

Having everyone spewing their own theologies will destroy the church a lot quicker than it's being destroyed now.

You're right....we do need leadership. But we need leadership that understands that it is the Holy Spirit who is ultimately in charge of the services, not the pastor or elders or "worship team" (I really don't like that term....we are ALL part of the worship team, not just an elite few who can sing better than I can).

RJ Mac
Feb 13th 2008, 07:42 PM
Daniel what you are saying is to go back to the Bible and do it the way God wanted us to worship. We did this at our fellowship and here's what we came up with. We used 1Cor.11-16 as the pattern, we felt this is the one place in the NT where we see worship discussed and could see a pattern forming so we went with it.

1Cor.11 - The Lord's Table, the most most important reason to come together, to remember the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, collectively. Every first day of the week, Ac.20:7;

1Cor.12 - Paul reminds us we are a body of believers, so at this time we announce prayer needs and events happening within the body. Christ is most important, then the individual needs of His body need to be identified, because we are a family.

1Cor.13 is our motivation. Love is why we do what we do.

1Cor.14 as you pointed out, one has a psalm a hymn a spiritual song, when does an individual get a chance to participate, or if you studied something that really touched you this week, when can you share that with the body? Paul had it set up, 3 at the most, could speak in tongues, provided and interpreter was there. Three could prophesy and three could share.

So we set up 3 - 5 minute spots for someone to share, provided they informed the song leader before services that they were prepared. If we have 3 great, if no one, no problem, the opportunity is there for the congregation to be interactive. People will learn and be challenged to study when they see individual members contributing.

1Cor.15 here is the lesson from Paul. If you read it, it doesn't take up 10 minutes. Informative, insightful, inspiring. One needs to do a study on the word preach, it means to proclaim the truth to the lost. At services you don't preach to the saved, you teach and inspire. The members are the preachers to preach to their fellow workers, friends and family.

1Cor.16 here is the collection. We are working on just having a box at the back, and just reminding people to make a contribution as they leave. They can do it before or after services, free will, not a plate coming around.

Based on 1Cor.11-16 we have a pattern from the scriptures. We observe the Lord's Table (communion) we share prayer needs so everyone is informed to the needs of the family. We allow for three members to share whatever is on their heart. We have a lesson to teach us things we can share with others that week. Contribution is done freely. We have bugs in the system but all in all doing it God's way makes it feel like a body of believers coming together and interacting with each other.

This is what we are trying, I like it very much. Your quite right we need to go back to God's Word and study it out and pattern our lives, our worship after His Word.

RJ

DanielF
Feb 13th 2008, 11:13 PM
Thanx RJ for that insight!

I was part of a youth church a couple years back where we didn't have a pastor. we had a "board of elders" who met regularly for prayer and on wednesdays we had a meeting where anyone could propose something to share on sunday. At these meetings we would evaluate the word based on scripture and help them with the presentation. This worked well, and got everyone involved :)

The problem was that even us (the "elders") were so young in the spirit, we couldn't give proper guidence. Things started going off track. In the end there were very few who actually participated! We became an elite click and after some unresolved disputes the whole fellowship shattered. The ideal was good but it all went sour.

This vision has been burning in my spirit ever since and I want to start something again. It is good to know that it can work in practice!

I do see the need for accountability and solid leadership! Right now I'm bussy compiling a "constitution" based on scripture. 1 Cor 11-16 is a usefull outline, thanx :D

DanielF
Feb 13th 2008, 11:43 PM
Part of the vision is to have "Prophetic free worship"

This would meen that everyone is free to join in with the flow of the Spirit! Freedom to worship creatively! eg: beating a drum to the rythem of HIS love, playing another instrument to express what is beyond words, singing, dancing, painting, or even worshiping in silence.

Without guidelines/rules this would be chaos! Here are some of my thoughts on what the rules could look like.

Rule 1: UNITY! Firstly with God, i.e. that no person can initiate anything except in response to the Spirit. (I was looking at Heb 12:22-24 and thought how wonderfull it would be to join in with what's happening in heaven right now instead of starting something new!)

Rule 2: UNITY! Unity, unity! with the fellowship/congregation. That whatever you do, the way you respond to the Spirit should be in line with what is alredy happening to not break/disturb the flow. This would imply restraint! there is a time for everything.

Rule 3: UNITY! This is not a time for personal ministry/ words, but for corporate worship. If you are led to minister personally to someone and it can't wait, take them into the next room.

Rule 4: UNITY! We all, together, are one body! We are equal. Make way for everyone to express themselves. eg, if you are singing and someone else joins in, give them space don't repeat yourself when someone else has something new!

Rule 5: It has to be NOW! It has to be prophetic! you are not allowed to sing old songs/something you've written/heard/played somewhere else/some other time. (I'm not shure how to phrase this one)

Those are my thoughts so far. It needs a lot of work!