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Knowlife
Feb 13th 2008, 03:04 AM
How can a Christian Love God and believe him in every word he has spoken. Spend time in his word and pray and praise him in thanksgiving. Then BAM fall into a sin....hate it, confess it,and repent, then do it again?

lysbeth
Feb 13th 2008, 03:33 AM
How can a Christian Love God and believe him in every word he has spoken. Spend time in his word and pray and praise him in thanksgiving. Then BAM fall into a sin....hate it, confess it,and repent, then do it again?

Because the flesh is weak and we still have to deal with the lust of it. We will struggle with sin the rest of our earthly lives. Isn't it our sin that keeps us clinging to Christ? This is no excuse for our sin, but we certainly strive to live more righteous lives because we feel the weight and consequences of our sin.

menJesus
Feb 13th 2008, 03:39 AM
On the other hand, the more we get to know and really love the Lord, the more we will turn away from anything that displeases Him, and the easier it is to do.

Its an ongoing journey. The eternal struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

Athanasius
Feb 13th 2008, 04:21 AM
Because we live in a fallen world, and are fallen.
I think we're starting to forget that.

Certainly, we aren't all entirely bad. But, we are far from good.

aliveinchrist
Feb 13th 2008, 04:23 AM
Because we are human just like everybody else and sin just like everybody else. But we can't just let it go. We have to ask forgiveness every time we do sin. It's acknowledging to Jesus, that "Okay, Jesus. I am a sinnner, I sinned, and I need your love, forgiveness and help in getting me over this." Which all of need to do.

Lefty
Feb 13th 2008, 06:39 AM
Romans 6, 7 and 8:thumbsup:

Joe King
Feb 13th 2008, 06:46 AM
Sorry, Mr. Perfect.

bornagain
Feb 13th 2008, 09:44 AM
I had a fellow tell me this week that when we sin we are headed to hell until we ask for forgivness. I thought WOW! thats scary. I said you mean a man could serve the Lord for 30 years and make a mistake and go to hell if he didnt ask for forgiveness? he said YES. That really bummed me out because I screw up daily more like hourly,ha. but seriously what if you have done or thought something and havnt ask for forgiveness yet or forgot about it or what if its something you really struggle with? Do you ask for forgiveness 20times a day?

Duane Morse
Feb 13th 2008, 09:55 AM
How can a Christian Love God and believe him in every word he has spoken. Spend time in his word and pray and praise him in thanksgiving. Then BAM fall into a sin....hate it, confess it,and repent, then do it again?
Because we are not perfect.

Simple as that.

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 02:30 PM
How can a Christian Love God and believe him in every word he has spoken. Spend time in his word and pray and praise him in thanksgiving. Then BAM fall into a sin....hate it, confess it,and repent, then do it again?

I doubt anyone on this forum will agree with me, but you don't have to fall into sin any longer. True Christians don't commit sin, and they (with the grace and help of God) are able to resist every temptation, and live free from sin all the days of their lives. People commit sin willingly, sin is not an accident. The Bible teaches sin is a WILLFUL transgression.


Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

No man will see the Lord if they have sin in their life. Holiness means without sin, sinless.

Sold Out
Feb 13th 2008, 02:58 PM
How can a Christian Love God and believe him in every word he has spoken. Spend time in his word and pray and praise him in thanksgiving. Then BAM fall into a sin....hate it, confess it,and repent, then do it again?

As long as we reside in these fleshly tents....it will never end! Should make us long for heaven!

Partaker of Christ
Feb 13th 2008, 04:52 PM
I doubt anyone on this forum will agree with me, but you don't have to fall into sin any longer. True Christians don't commit sin, and they (with the grace and help of God) are able to resist every temptation, and live free from sin all the days of their lives. People commit sin willingly, sin is not an accident. The Bible teaches sin is a WILLFUL transgression.


Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

No man will see the Lord if they have sin in their life. Holiness means without sin, sinless.

"I doubt anyone on this forum will agree with me"

Is this to imply that everyone on this forum is not a True Christian?

I take it that since you have found the secret to sinless perfection, you would be willing to share with us who groan in this earthly tent.

Athanasius
Feb 13th 2008, 04:59 PM
It stems from a Jewish theology.
They don't believe in original sin, additionally, that we have the ability to live sinless lives, though it takes years.

Adam168
Feb 13th 2008, 05:43 PM
Simple. Because they're human.

Frances
Feb 13th 2008, 05:52 PM
I said you mean a man could serve the Lord for 30 years and make a mistake and go to hell if he didnt ask for forgiveness? he said YES.

The Lord Judges the heart - if He sees someone determined to obey Him who makes a mistake, He will undoubtledy Judge them accordingly. . .habitual untrepented Sin is another matter. . . (if your informant was right I suspect Heaven would be almost empty.)

aliveinchrist
Feb 13th 2008, 06:02 PM
I doubt anyone on this forum will agree with me, but you don't have to fall into sin any longer. True Christians don't commit sin, and they (with the grace and help of God) are able to resist every temptation, and live free from sin all the days of their lives. People commit sin willingly, sin is not an accident. The Bible teaches sin is a WILLFUL transgression.


Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

No man will see the Lord if they have sin in their life. Holiness means without sin, sinless.

That's funny. I guess I'm not a true Christian then. Cause I sin everyday.

That is a false statement, and one you should not be saying. You making it out to seem like TRUE Christians are perfect.

Well, my friend, we're not. Christians sin everyday. It's our nature, because we are human, too. We are just forgiven by the Grace of God, the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

Christians aren't perfect, nowhere near. I would LOVE for you to point out a Christian that is perfect.

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 06:04 PM
Simple. Because they're human.

Couldn't have said it in better words myself...:)

Adam168
Feb 13th 2008, 06:05 PM
I have absolutely no idea what's going on in faithful's mind. To say that Christians don't sin is beyond silly. The only person who was ever perfect was Jesus and we're not Jesus.

Bornagain, the guy you talked to has NO CLUE what he's talking about. Absurd.

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 06:19 PM
I have absolutely no idea what's going on in faithful's mind. To say that Christians don't sin is beyond silly. The only person who was ever perfect was Jesus and we're not Jesus.

Bornagain, the guy you talked to has NO CLUE what he's talking about. Absurd.

Well..I must admit I do see his point. Our lives shouldn't be characterized by sin as there is no sin in Christ. Too many people focus on sin as oppossed to victory. If we're focused on failure, how are we ever going to succeed? I don't think he was trying to state that he had never sinned in his lifetime though - just that he no longer lives a life in bondage to sin. Kind of reminds me of this verse.

Genesis 4:6-7
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Through our faith Christ, we have mastery over sin..sin doesn't have mastery over us..:)

In Christ,

Stephen

aliveinchrist
Feb 13th 2008, 06:21 PM
We don't live in bondage to sin, no, but that by no means, means that we DON'T sin.

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 06:26 PM
We don't live in bondage to sin, no, but that by no means, means that we DON'T sin.

I don't think faithful was stating he was sinless, I'm sure he just has reserved all of the judgement of himself until the appointed time, before the judgement seat of the Lord.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 06:30 PM
These verses also support faithful's testimony..

In him was the light, and the light was the light of all men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.

God is light and in him is no darkness at all

If the light of Christ shines within us as believers, how can sin overcome us? It can't even comprehend us...;) Just when sin comes knocking, thinking it's understood - the light of Christ shines brightly overpowering it.

In Christ,

Stephen

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 07:03 PM
Apologies for being away so long, had to get my braces tightened and re-colored. Fun fun.

A couple of you have said many different things. I have so many notes dealing with the issue of sin, that the files are too big for me to attach, and they go way over the character limit, therefore I cannot post them.....

To make the long story short, it is God's will and plan that once a person obtains true Bible Salvation & Sanctification (two definite works of Grace).....that you are to live holy, righteous, and sinless.

Now, I'm NOT in anyway promoting Once Saved Always Saved....it may sound that way, but I'm not. Once Saved Always Saved is false doctrine.

Now, once a person is Saved, it IS POSSIBLE for them to backslide. Backsliding is when a person commits sin, and when a person backslides, it FORFEITS there Salvation. Meaning that a person who backslides is no longer saved, and is therefore a sinner. In order for the person to be saved again, they have to repent again, with godly sorrow. In other words they have to start all over.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sin is a CHOICE. Nobody HAS to sin if they really don't want to. God said he will deliver you out of your temptations, and that he will make a way of escape. That obviously means that you do NOT have to sin AT ALL. Not even once!

Somebody posted about pointing out people who live sinless. I could point you to thousands of people who do.

If anyone's interested in some notes/studies/literature, I'd be happy to share it with anyone. My goal isn't to argue but to try to help those who want real deliverance from sin. We could argue on this forum for hours and hours about scriptures, but nobody can take away my personal testimony. Maybe I'll share it eventually.....not sure if anyone would be interested or not.....:hmm:

aliveinchrist
Feb 13th 2008, 07:12 PM
You make some interesting points, faithfulfriend. I'm going to post this as another topic, and get other people's opinions and ideas.

I'm interested in knowing if this is true or not. Cause there's two sides to this issue. :hmm:

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 07:26 PM
Apologies for being away so long, had to get my braces tightened and re-colored. Fun fun.

A couple of you have said many different things. I have so many notes dealing with the issue of sin, that the files are too big for me to attach, and they go way over the character limit, therefore I cannot post them.....

To make the long story short, it is God's will and plan that once a person obtains true Bible Salvation & Sanctification (two definite works of Grace).....that you are to live holy, righteous, and sinless.

Now, I'm NOT in anyway promoting Once Saved Always Saved....it may sound that way, but I'm not. Once Saved Always Saved is false doctrine.

Now, once a person is Saved, it IS POSSIBLE for them to backslide. Backsliding is when a person commits sin, and when a person backslides, it FORFEITS there Salvation. Meaning that a person who backslides is no longer saved, and is therefore a sinner. In order for the person to be saved again, they have to repent again, with godly sorrow. In other words they have to start all over.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sin is a CHOICE. Nobody HAS to sin if they really don't want to. God said he will deliver you out of your temptations, and that he will make a way of escape. That obviously means that you do NOT have to sin AT ALL. Not even once!

Somebody posted about pointing out people who live sinless. I could point you to thousands of people who do.

If anyone's interested in some notes/studies/literature, I'd be happy to share it with anyone. My goal isn't to argue but to try to help those who want real deliverance from sin. We could argue on this forum for hours and hours about scriptures, but nobody can take away my personal testimony. Maybe I'll share it eventually.....not sure if anyone would be interested or not.....:hmm:

I'd say the best thing for one to do is to not judge themselves until the appointed time. I don't think it's wise to not pray each day and state themselves "sinless" before they go to bed, as Jesus instructed us engage in regular prayer - asking the Father to forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.(debt = sin)

So we need to pray each day in the way Jesus instructed, without casting judgement or condemnation on ourselves. This leads us to having power over sin, as well as humility before God. I don't think it's wise to go before God and say "Hey God..I'm sinless" cause we'll quickly be rebuked and called a liar, as well as be sinning before him.

Regarding your other point. Sure we have a choice to sin. And sometimes inevitably, people do make bad choices and do just that. I don't think that automatically equates to condemnation though. As in John's Epistles it states "There is sin that does not lead to death"

Case in point King David. David himself prayed each day to God, asking him to see if there was any "wicked way" within him that would lead him to sin. Does that sound like a man who believed himself to be "sinless" before God? I don't think so. Did David sin after praying? Well we know how the story goes...with Bathsheba and the counting of troops and all...;) Was salvation still offered to David and his sons? Yes of course if they repented and came back to God.

Your point though still is a good one. There needs to be more focus on Christ, and less focus on sin. That's how we overcome. It's not about us..It's about Jesus and his victory. If we continue to pray each day as Christ instructed us to the Father, Christ will once again reign and his victory will be demonstrative through our lives.

In Christ,

Stephen

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 07:36 PM
I'd say the best thing for one to do is to not judge themselves until the appointed time. I don't think it's wise to not pray each day and state themselves "sinless" before they go to bed, as Jesus instructed us engage in regular prayer - asking the Father to forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.(debt = sin)

So we need to pray each day in the way Jesus instructed, without casting judgement or condemnation on ourselves. This leads us to having power over sin, as well as humility before God. I don't think it's wise to go before God and say "Hey God..I'm sinless" cause we'll quickly be rebuked and called a liar, as well as be sinning before him.

Regarding your other point. Sure we have a choice to sin. And sometimes inevitably, people do make bad choices and do just that. I don't think that automatically equates to condemnation though. As in John's Epistles it states "There is sin that does not lead to death"

Case in point King David. David himself prayed each day to God, asking him to see if there was any "wicked way" within him that would lead him to sin. Does that sound like a man who believed himself to be "sinless" before God? I don't think so. Did David sin after praying? Well we know how the story goes...with Bathsheba and the counting of troops and all...;) Was salvation still offered to David and his sons? Yes of course if they repented and came back to God.

Your point though still is a good one. There needs to be more focus on Christ, and less focus on sin. That's how we overcome. It's not about us..It's about Jesus and his victory. If we continue to pray each day as Christ instructed us to the Father, Christ will once again reign and his victory will be demonstrative through our lives.

In Christ,

Stephen

In response to King David, he lived hundreds of years BEFORE Christ died. Under the old law, and under the Old Testament, people could NOT live sinless. That is exactly why there was a New Covanent, and that is exactly why God sent his only Son to save us from our sins.Notes on David:

Is there no difference between the old and the new covenants? Does not the Bible say, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did?” Heb. 7:19.
Since “it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Heb. 10:4), Jesus, “the mediator of the new testament,” shed His blood at Calvary, opening up “a new and living way,” which was not yet in force in David’s day, for Jesus, being the testator (Heb. 9:15-17), had not yet died.
“For what the law could not do [for David] . . . God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us.” Rom. 8:3-4. In this New Testament time, we are without excuse. Jesus came to save us from our sins, “wherefore he is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him” (Heb. 7:25).

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 07:42 PM
In response to King David, he lived hundreds of years BEFORE Christ died. Under the old law, and under the Old Testament, people could NOT live sinless. That is exactly why there was a New Covanent, and that is exactly why God sent his only Son to save us from our sins.Notes on David:

Is there no difference between the old and the new covenants? Does not the Bible say, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did?” Heb. 7:19.
Since “it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Heb. 10:4), Jesus, “the mediator of the new testament,” shed His blood at Calvary, opening up “a new and living way,” which was not yet in force in David’s day, for Jesus, being the testator (Heb. 9:15-17), had not yet died.
“For what the law could not do [for David] . . . God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us.” Rom. 8:3-4. In this New Testament time, we are without excuse. Jesus came to save us from our sins, “wherefore he is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him” (Heb. 7:25).



Was God's Grace present during the OT? Was his Holy Spirit Present Before in the OT?

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 07:42 PM
You make some interesting points, faithfulfriend. I'm going to post this as another topic, and get other people's opinions and ideas.

I'm interested in knowing if this is true or not. Cause there's two sides to this issue. :hmm:

Yes there are two sides to an issue, but that does not mean both sides are correct does it?

What I have said in this thread shocks most people, and they immediately become skeptical and call me looney/silly. I don't take it personal, I'm used to it. :lol:.

One thing I would encourage you and everyone to do is this:

You said you would start a new thread and ask for peoples opinions and ideas. The reason why many people believe many different things is because it's just their opinion, and it's just their ideas. If I form an opinion or an idea, I had better make sure it lines up with the Word of God completely, or else it is false.

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 07:48 PM
I'd say the best thing for one to do is to not judge themselves until the appointed time.



Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

The Bible says Zion is redeemed with judgment. Zion represents God's church if you study it out.

I have to judge my own life as well has having God's ministry judge it also. I want to make sure that I am living right at ALL times, or else I'll come up short on judgment day.

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 08:00 PM
God' Grace was present in the OT as was his Holy Spirit, as God is an eternal being. In fact in the Psalms David even asks God to fill him with his Spirt so he'll be able to walk righteously before the Lord. Here's a the Psalm that mentions David being filled with the Spirit. As well as really goes well with what we're discussing within the context of this thread.

Psalm 51


1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.


Salvation as well as the Holy Spirit was available through all of the OT people. God is not the same as us. He is not limited by time, so just because the savior was not present during the Time of the OT, does not mean that Jesus could not be used as a Savior to the people of the OT.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 08:02 PM
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

The Bible says Zion is redeemed with judgment. Zion represents God's church if you study it out.

I have to judge my own life as well has having God's ministry judge it also. I want to make sure that I am living right at ALL times, or else I'll come up short on judgment day.

Sure, it's always good to test ourselves. Just not overly so. Praying each day, as well as doing our best to live a life according to the Word will help us test ourselves, and give us a guage as to what we should be doing.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 13th 2008, 08:04 PM
In response to King David, he lived hundreds of years BEFORE Christ died. Under the old law, and under the Old Testament, people could NOT live sinless. That is exactly why there was a New Covanent, and that is exactly why God sent his only Son to save us from our sins.Notes on David:

Is there no difference between the old and the new covenants? Does not the Bible say, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did?” Heb. 7:19.
Since “it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Heb. 10:4), Jesus, “the mediator of the new testament,” shed His blood at Calvary, opening up “a new and living way,” which was not yet in force in David’s day, for Jesus, being the testator (Heb. 9:15-17), had not yet died.
“For what the law could not do [for David] . . . God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us.” Rom. 8:3-4. In this New Testament time, we are without excuse. Jesus came to save us from our sins, “wherefore he is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him” (Heb. 7:25).



Since you became sinless, are you claiming that you 100% love the Lord thy God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind?
And do you love your neighbour as yourself?

Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 09:10 PM
Since you became sinless, are you claiming that you 100% love the Lord thy God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind?
And do you love your neighbour as yourself?

Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Absolutely. I love God with all my heart, soul, and mind. And I love my neighbors. I make sure that whenever somebody is in need, if God burdens me to help them, I do so. God loves a cheerful giver.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

His word REQUIRES that we do this:

De 10:12 ¶ And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

There was a time in my life past where I didn't love God, and the way I lived proved it. I used to be addicted to sin, I couldn't help myself. But once I gave up all sin, confessed (with a contrite heart) and asked God for forgiveness, he set me free from the bondage of sin. He changed my heart, he changed my mind, he changed my desires. I hate sin, I see it as exceedingly sinful.

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 09:29 PM
God' Grace was present in the OT as was his Holy Spirit, as God is an eternal being. In fact in the Psalms David even asks God to fill him with his Spirt so he'll be able to walk righteously before the Lord. Here's a the Psalm that mentions David being filled with the Spirit. As well as really goes well with what we're discussing within the context of this thread.

Psalm 51


1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.


Salvation as well as the Holy Spirit was available through all of the OT people. God is not the same as us. He is not limited by time, so just because the savior was not present during the Time of the OT, does not mean that Jesus could not be used as a Savior to the people of the OT.

In Christ,

Stephen

I'm guessing you're talking about being filled with the Holy Ghost in the OT? That is a big deep subject that could take many posts.....I have some books saved to PDF and .doc files that I could send you about Sanctification......

I'm warning you though, some are several hundred pages long....:)

From Matthew Henry's commentary:

Ps 51:1-6 David, being convinced of his sin, poured out his soul to God in prayer for mercy and grace. Whither should backsliding children return, but to the Lord their God, who alone can heal them? He drew up, by Divine teaching, an account of the workings of his heart toward God. Those that truly repent of their sins, will not be ashamed to own their repentance. Also, he instructs others what to do, and what to say. David had not only done much, but suffered much in the cause of God; yet he flees to God's infinite mercy, and depends upon that alone for pardon and peace. He begs the pardon of sin. The blood of Christ, sprinkled upon the conscience, blots out the transgression, and, having reconciled us to God, reconciles us to ourselves. The believer longs to have the whole debt of his sins blotted out, and every stain cleansed; he would be thoroughly washed from all his sins; but the hypocrite always has some secret reserve, and would have some favourite lust spared. David had such a deep sense of his sin, that he was continually thinking of it, with sorrow and shame. His sin was committed against God, whose truth we deny by wilful sin; with him we deal deceitfully. And the truly penitent will ever trace back the streams of actual sin to the fountain of original depravity. He confesses his original corruption. This is that foolishness which is bound in the heart of a child, that proneness to evil, and that backwardness to good, which is the burden of the regenerate, and the ruin of the unregenerate. He is encouraged, in his repentance, to hope that God would graciously accept him. Thou desirest truth in the inward part; to this God looks, in a returning sinner. Where there is truth, God will give wisdom. Those who sincerely endeavour to do their duty shall be taught their duty; but they will expect good only from Divine grace overcoming their corrupt nature.


Ps 51:7-15 Purge me with hyssop, with the blood of Christ applied to my soul by a lively faith, as the water of purification was sprinkled with a bunch of hyssop. The blood of Christ is called the blood of sprinkling, Heb 12:24. If this blood of Christ, which cleanses from all sin, cleanse us from our sin, then we shall be clean indeed, Heb 10:2. He asks not to be comforted, till he is first cleansed; if sin, the bitter root of sorrow, be taken away, he can pray in faith, Let me have a well-grounded peace, of thy creating, so that the bones broken by convictions may rejoice, may be comforted. Hide thy face from my sins; blot out all mine iniquities out of thy book; blot them out, as a cloud is blotted out and dispelled by the beams of the sun. And the believer desires renewal to holiness as much as the joy of salvation. David now saw, more than ever, what an unclean heart he had, and sadly laments it; but he sees it is not in his own power to amend it, and therefore begs God would create in him a clean heart. When the sinner feels this change is necessary, and reads the promise of God to that purpose, he begins to ask it. He knew he had by his sin grieved the Holy Spirit, and provoked him to withdraw. This he dreads more than anything. He prays that Divine comforts may be restored to him. When we give ourselves cause to doubt our interest in salvation, how can we expect the joy of it? This had made him weak; he prays, I am ready to fall, either into sin or into despair, therefore uphold me with thy Spirit. Thy Spirit is a free Spirit, a free Agent himself, working freely. And the more cheerful we are in our duty, the more constant we shall be to it. What is this but the liberty wherewith Christ makes his people free, which is contrasted with the yoke of bondage? Ga 5:1. It is the Spirit of adoption spoken to the heart. Those to whom God is the God of salvation, he will deliver from guilt; for the salvation he is the God of, is salvation from sin. We may therefore plead with him, Lord, thou art the God of my salvation, therefore deliver me from the dominion of sin. And when the lips are opened, what should they speak but the praises of God for his forgiving mercy?


Ps 51:16-19 Those who are thoroughly convinced of their misery and danger by sin, would spare no cost to obtain the remission of it. But as they cannot make satisfaction for sin, so God cannot take any satisfaction in them, otherwise than as expressing love and duty to him. The good work wrought in every true penitent, is a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart, and sorrow for sin. It is a heart that is tender, and pliable to God's word. Oh that there were such a heart in every one of us! God is graciously pleased to accept this; it is instead of all burnt-offering and sacrifice. The broken heart is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ; there is no true repentance without faith in him. Men despise that which is broken, but God will not. He will not overlook it, he will not refuse or reject it; though it makes God no satisfaction for the wrong done to him by sin. Those who have been in spiritual troubles, know how to pity and pray for others afflicted in like manner. David was afraid lest his sin should bring judgements upon the city and kingdom. No personal fears or troubles of conscience can make the soul, which has received grace, careless about the interests of the church of God. And let this be the continued joy of all the redeemed, that they have redemption through the blood of Christ, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of his grace.

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 09:38 PM
That's okay. Thanks for the information though. The Holy Spirit was definitely present in the OT. How else do you think prophets like Elijah, Elisha performed miracles? Elisha's substance was so filled with the spirit that his very bones I believe healed someone. No real room for discussion regarding this one.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 13th 2008, 10:05 PM
Absolutely. I love God with all my heart, soul, and mind. And I love my neighbors. I make sure that whenever somebody is in need, if God burdens me to help them, I do so. God loves a cheerful giver.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

His word REQUIRES that we do this:

De 10:12 ¶ And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

There was a time in my life past where I didn't love God, and the way I lived proved it. I used to be addicted to sin, I couldn't help myself. But once I gave up all sin, confessed (with a contrite heart) and asked God for forgiveness, he set me free from the bondage of sin. He changed my heart, he changed my mind, he changed my desires. I hate sin, I see it as exceedingly sinful.

So you gave up all sin first, and then He set you free, and changed your heart, mind and desires?

Friend of I AM
Feb 13th 2008, 10:31 PM
So you gave up all sin first, and then He set you free, and changed your heart, mind and desires?

I think she is saying she became free from sin by the grace of God, not from her own abilities. The Holy Spirit will always be victorious over sin, and for one to state otherwise means the Holy Spirit isn't working through us. I actually agree with this premise, and it is biblical or as it states in Johns Epistle that no one born of God continues to sin. The only difference of opinion I had was that we should be careful as to how we approach God in daily prayer, always following the model that Jesus gave us - asking the Father to use the Spirit of his son to convict our consciences of anything we need to improve upon within our walk, helping us continue to achieve perfection in Christ.

In Christ,

Stephen

LawrenceDreaming
Feb 13th 2008, 10:33 PM
Cause we are all human, and we ineviatably make mistakes. The only thing we can do is ask Jesus for forgiveness and "get back on that horse" and continue to improve.

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 11:11 PM
So you gave up all sin first, and then He set you free, and changed your heart, mind and desires?

When I say I gave it up, I mean that I forsook it all....

The Bible says to confess and forsake your sins. Repentance requires confession of sin to God. And when an individual means business with God, God will mean business with them. The way you think will change, the way you act will change. You become a NEW creature, just like the Bible promises.

I've seen drug addicts, alcoholics, lusters, etc etc changed completely. A complete 180 degree turn around, and they live holy and righteous, and they are new creatures in Christ Jesus.

When I said he changed my heart, maybe the term "gave me a new heart" would make more sense?

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

faithfulfriend
Feb 13th 2008, 11:12 PM
I think she is saying she


For the record, I'm male. :lol:

Athanasius
Feb 13th 2008, 11:37 PM
For the record, I'm male. :lol:

Awkward.
I can't live a sinless life because of original sin.

Friend of I AM
Feb 14th 2008, 12:20 AM
For the record, I'm male. :lol:

close enough..;)

Edit: Joke man. I'm sure you're a manly, manly man..

Friend of I AM
Feb 14th 2008, 12:14 PM
I think it's important that we acknowledge the Holy Spirit as being in sole control of our lives, while at the same time not discounting the existence of evil around us and our human failings before God. Doing so does not take away from the Power of God, but it does keep us wise enough to understand that we do have a very real enemy that we face and are going to battle with each day as well as allows God to be in complete control of our lives. Take the story of Job.

Job not acknowledging his pride before God, allowed the sin to take control of his life. However, when Job acknowledged the presence of this sin, he allowed the Holy Spirit once again to take control. Moving forward, we should always approach the throne of God with utmost humility - taking into account that we ourselves are not in control of our lives, only the Lord is.

In Christ,

Stephen

Partaker of Christ
Feb 14th 2008, 01:13 PM
When I say I gave it up, I mean that I forsook it all....

The Bible says to confess and forsake your sins. Repentance requires confession of sin to God. And when an individual means business with God, God will mean business with them. The way you think will change, the way you act will change. You become a NEW creature, just like the Bible promises.

I've seen drug addicts, alcoholics, lusters, etc etc changed completely. A complete 180 degree turn around, and they live holy and righteous, and they are new creatures in Christ Jesus.

When I said he changed my heart, maybe the term "gave me a new heart" would make more sense?

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

I know you say you have lots of notes, but I (and perhaps many others) would be very interested if you would share your testimony with us. Would this be possible?

faithfulfriend
Feb 14th 2008, 02:10 PM
I know you say you have lots of notes, but I (and perhaps many others) would be very interested if you would share your testimony with us. Would this be possible?

Trying to PM you.....is it disabled??

I'll do it if people are interested, but it wont' be posted publicly. I'd prefer it to be private messaged.....if that's alright.....

I guess if there's interest, PM me first so that I'll know who to PM it to?

faithfulfriend
Feb 14th 2008, 02:21 PM
Awkward.
I can't live a sinless life because of original sin.

This brings up another issue, which would be Sanctification.

I can't post the studies I have on it due to excessive length....

In short:

God did not create man as a sinner. He created the first man, Adam, in His own image (Gen. 1:26). This image is not our physical image but refers to our spiritual or moral nature. God created Adam pure and holy and with power to choose between right and wrong. When Adam sinned, he still retained his human form but lost the image of God from his moral nature. When Adam had children they were born in his now polluted image (Gen. 5:3). “Wherefore as by one man [Adam] sin en*tered into the world and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned,” (Rom. 5:12). Sin actually entered into the world through Eve, so for sin to enter into the world through Adam, it would have to be through his seed. This inherited, carnal nature led us all into committed sin, and we became guilty for our sins when we became old enough to know better. The Apostle Paul said, “For I was alive without the law once; [innocent] but when the commandment came, [he became knowledgeable] sin revived, and I died,” (Romans 7:9). We also see here that sin caused spiritual death in Paul (Saul then) just like God warned Adam and Eve it would in them, in the day they sinned by disobeying, (see Genesis 3:3). Spiritual death is when the soul is separated from God. One can be alive physically while being dead spiritually. “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth,” (I Timothy 5:6). If one dies physically while their soul is separated from God, this would be the “second death,” (Revelation 21:8) or eternal separation from God. Disobedience, or sin, is what separates one from God, (Isaiah 59:2) and this separation is termed (spiritual) death. “…the soul that sinneth, it shall die,” (Ezekiel 18:4). This sinful nature we all inherited from Adam, is why we all found ourselves one day to be sin*ning. There came a time when we looked back and realized this sinful nature had brought forth evil fruit in our lives. This sinful nature can be seen in children, even though they are innocent before God. They are not taught to be selfish, to lie or steal. Yet what child hasn’t told his mother he was not in the cookie jar with crumbs all over his face? This same inherited sinful nature is still in a person who gets saved. Their committed sins have been (forgiven) cleansed, but the inherited sinful nature yet remains and needs to be cleansed. This sinful nature is an inward foe. It will manifest itself from time to time and will eventually lead one back into committing sins if not taken care of. This carnality needs to be cleansed from our soul.

Sanctification is an inward cleansing that removes the Adamic nature/carnality or whatever other term people may use.

Friend of I AM
Feb 14th 2008, 03:34 PM
Have you been completely sanctified? And has the race to perfection stopped? Sanctification is a lifelong process. We are commanded to be perfect in as much of God's perfection that has been revealed to us.

We need to be careful not to get to complacent or over-confident about where we are at in our walk. Boast no more of ourselves, or no less of ourselves - until the appointed time of judgement. Sometimes it is necessary to come to one another in weakness, in order for us to bring others to the Lord in strength. When we are weak, we are strong in Christ.

faithfulfriend
Feb 14th 2008, 03:43 PM
Have you been completely sanctified? And has the race to perfection stopped? Sanctification is a lifelong process. We are commanded to be perfect in as much of God's perfection that has been revealed to us.

We need to be careful not to get to complacent or over-confident about where we are at in our walk. Boast no more of ourselves, or no less of ourselves - until the appointed time of judgement. Sometimes it is necessary to come to one another in weakness, in order for us to bring others to the Lord in strength. When we are weak, we are strong in Christ.

Yes I have been completely sanctified.

No it is NOT a boasting.....I have hundreds of pages of studies on it. I would love to share if your interested. Sanctification IS obtainable in THIS life.

Friend of I AM
Feb 14th 2008, 03:47 PM
Yes I have been completely sanctified.

No it is NOT a boasting.....I have hundreds of pages of studies on it. I would love to share if your interested. Sanctification IS obtainable in THIS life.

That's good. So long as you're not boasting more of yourself than you're okay. It is important though to come before others in weakness, particularly those whom have very weak consciences - and condemn themselves very quickly based on others testimonies.

Weakness doesn't mean acknowledging one is abiding or controlled by the sinful nature, but it does mean that one approaches those who are like them(you're still human I hope) in a fashion which comes across as approachable.

Christ was crucified in weakness, so that we ourselves may have strength in him. Let us also approach others in the same weakness that he approached us, with humility, compassion, Love, and forgiveness.

In Christ,

Stephen

faithfulfriend
Feb 14th 2008, 04:13 PM
That's good. So long as you're not boasting more of yourself than you're okay. It is important though to come before others in weakness, particularly those whom have very weak consciences - and condemn themselves very quickly based on others testimonies.

Weakness doesn't mean acknowledging one is abiding or controlled by the sinful nature, but it does mean that one approaches those who are like them(you're still human I hope) in a fashion which comes across as approachable.

Christ was crucified in weakness, so that we ourselves may have strength in him. Let us also approach others in the same weakness that he approached us, with humility, compassion, Love, and forgiveness.

In Christ,

Stephen

Right, I see your point. I agree. Nobody is anything without God. The Bible says "in all thy ways acknowledge HIM".