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Vivi
Feb 13th 2008, 07:24 AM
I've always believed in the rapture of the church and have looked forward to it but all these opinions and theories are just confusing me. Some say there's a pre-trib rapture, a halfway trib rapture and a post trib rapture and still others say there's no rapture at all. Is there biblical evidence that there is gonna be a rapture? I'm so confused help me out here.

IPet2_9
Feb 13th 2008, 07:55 AM
By and large, I think "no rapture" and post-trib rapture are the same thing. As is "rapture" and pre-trib rapture. It's just people's different way of saying things.

That's where it gets confusing. I can say, "there is no rapture," which inevitably will prompt somebody to point out the scriptures which clearly say there indeed is a rapture. Which, in turn, then leads one to incorrectly assume there must be a pre-trib rapture. Proving there's a rapture does not prove that the rapture is pre-trib.

seeker_truth
Feb 13th 2008, 09:00 AM
I've always believed in the rapture of the church and have looked forward to it but all these opinions and theories are just confusing me. Some say there's a pre-trib rapture, a halfway trib rapture and a post trib rapture and still others say there's no rapture at all. Is there biblical evidence that there is gonna be a rapture? I'm so confused help me out here.

Yes, Vivi, there is a rapture. The KJB calls it 'caught up' 1Thess.4:13-18, and 'twinkling of an eye' in 1Co.15:52.

You'll get a number of opinions, so here's mine. I believe we are 'caught up' immediately after the resurrection of the dead in Rev.11:12 and as the seventh trump is sounded in Rev.11:15.

Keep reading and searching, and in time you'll be able to make a decission of your own.

Have fun in the forum, enjoy yourself, ask questions. We do a lot of disagreeing with one another, but we learn by challenging each other.

And, welcome...

seeker

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 09:04 AM
I've always believed in the rapture of the church and have looked forward to it but all these opinions and theories are just confusing me. Some say there's a pre-trib rapture, a halfway trib rapture and a post trib rapture and still others say there's no rapture at all. Is there biblical evidence that there is gonna be a rapture? I'm so confused help me out here.

According to scripture what is known as the rapture takes place at the return of Christ;

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus said this will be after the tribulation;

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Witnesses
Feb 13th 2008, 09:32 AM
There,

Is a 'catching up' of the saints, after those who are dead in Christ are raised. And all this occurs at the 7th trumpet, at the return of Christ, at the end of the 70th week, the end of the 7 years.

So, I is not any 'pre-trib' 'rapture' occuring at the beginning of the 70th week. Any other words, Christ returns 'once', and that at the end of the 70th week.

2Witnesses

jeffweeder
Feb 13th 2008, 11:39 AM
Yes it is confusing, or at least appears to be.

Drop all , and listen to Jesus, thats the answer right?

He said , I will come back and recieve you to myself, I mean he was the author.

We are meant to look forward to the promise that he made.
By Jesus own definition, we would be recieved by him when he comes, and this is the gathering to him....some call it rapture.
Keep listening to Jesus and he says that after the trib of those days he would come.
To wrap it all up , he assured us that he had told us all things , before he comes.

This is why Paul in 1Thess 4 tells us that he speaks according to the word of the lord, and in 1thess 5, that we have no need for anything to be written to us..............because we should be listening to his own discourse on his own promise.

Read through these scriptures


"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also


"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.



Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 12:21 PM
Yes it is confusing, or at least appears to be.

Drop all , and listen to Jesus, thats the answer right?

He said , I will come back and recieve you to myself, I mean he was the author.

We are meant to look forward to the promise that he made.
By Jesus own definition, we would be recieved by him when he comes, and this is the gathering to him....some call it rapture.
Keep listening to Jesus and he says that after the trib of those days he would come.
To wrap it all up , he assured us that he had told us all things , before he comes.

This is why Paul in 1Thess 4 tells us that he speaks according to the word of the lord, and in 1thess 5, that we have no need for anything to be written to us..............because we should be listening to his own discourse on his own promise.

Read through these scriptures

Yes and Jesus said the following;

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So in order not to contradict the words of Christ, believe him and his words.

1 Tim 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2 Pet 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Jud 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

JMN
Feb 13th 2008, 12:26 PM
I think its very confusing. I know there is scripture presented that says there is a rapture but im still not convinced.

jeffweeder
Feb 13th 2008, 12:30 PM
I think its very confusing. I know there is scripture presented that says there is a rapture but im still not convinced.

Well there is because we rise to meet him in the air--this is rapture.
Its just the timing of that event that is confusing...but Jesus makes it clear I think.

Roelof
Feb 13th 2008, 12:46 PM
THE RAPTURE AND THE 2nd COMING OF CHRIST



RAPTURE PASSAGES (Before the Great Tribulation)
For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Rom 8:19)

When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. (Col 3:4)

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. (1Th 4:14)

For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. (1Th 4:15)

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. (1Th 4:16)

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

But that which you have, hold fast until I come. (Rev 2:25)



2nd COMING PASSAGES (After the Great Tribulation)And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44)

And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation; until that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand). (Mat 24:15)
for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:21)
And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened. (Mat 24:22)
For as the lightning comes out of the east and shines even to the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Mat 24:27)

and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man {Christ} coming in the clouds of heaven with power and with great glory. (Matt 24:30, KJV)

Now the prophecy primarily respects the events near at hand - the destruction of Jerusalem, the period of the Jewish church and state, the calling of the Gentiles, and the setting up of Christ's kingdom in the world; (Matt 24:30, Matthew Henry Commentary)

The second coming of Christ to earth in fulfillment of Old Testament prediction (cf. Dan 7:13) will be seen by all kindreds of the earth at the time, Israel and the nations. (Revelation 1:7, 21st Century KJV)

And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:14)
And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Rev 19:16)
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army. (Rev 19:19)
And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh. (Rev 19:21)

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 12:52 PM
I think its very confusing. I know there is scripture presented that says there is a rapture but im still not convinced.

Although the word rapture is not in the bible, however there are scriptures used for what is called the rapture.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 07:40 PM
The below comment inserts ("Before the Great Tribulation"); however those verses themselves, do not make that insertion.



THE RAPTURE AND THE 2nd COMING OF CHRIST


RAPTURE PASSAGES (Before the Great Tribulation)For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Rom 8:19)


Nothing in Romans 8 mentions the manifestation of the sons of God occuring "before the tribulation". The context actually, gives the opposite expectation. The context of when 'the manifestation of the sons of God' will occur at the same time that the Creation itsself is redeemed from the bondage of corruption.

Romans 8:21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

To believe that the creature and the creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption; and creation cease in its groaning and travailing is hardly a 'before the great tribulation' expectation.






When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. (Col 3:4)

This verse likewise, doesn't give any context of being "before the great tribulation".

What context with other verses that speak of the future appearing of Christ; Titus 2's Glorious Appearing, 2 Thessalonians 2's Appearing, 2 Timothy 4's Appearing; the context again is more fitting of the 2nd Coming of Christ; not a separate coming before that.



and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]

Nothing in that verse mentions a rapture before the tribulation.
However, we do know from other passages that Jesus comes from Heaven 'after the great tribulation' (Matthew 24:29-30, Mark 13:26)






For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. (1Th 4:14)

For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. (1Th 4:15)

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. (1Th 4:16)


Interesting that the OP states this is not a 2nd Coming verse; when nothing in this verse mentions a rapture 'before the great tribulation'; and this verse 15 explicitily states it is at the Coming of the Lord.



But that which you have, hold fast until I come. (Rev 2:25)

The context of the Coming of the Lord in Revelation, is never mentioned to be before the great tribulation. Revelation's entire theme, is the anticipate of His great Return and Revelation from Heaven.

Chapter 19 best describes His return from Heaven....that is what Christians await.
Revelation mentions no coming of Christ before the Great Tribulation.

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 08:06 PM
The below comment inserts ("Before the Great Tribulation"); however those verses themselves, do not make that insertion.


Nothing in Romans 8 mentions the manifestation of the sons of God occuring "before the tribulation". The context actually, gives the opposite expectation. The context of when 'the manifestation of the sons of God' will occur at the same time that the Creation itsself is redeemed from the bondage of corruption.

Romans 8:21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

To believe that the creature and the creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption; and creation cease in its groaning and travailing is hardly a 'before the great tribulation' expectation.





This verse likewise, doesn't give any context of being "before the great tribulation".

What context with other verses that speak of the future appearing of Christ; Titus 2's Glorious Appearing, 2 Thessalonians 2's Appearing, 2 Timothy 4's Appearing; the context again is more fitting of the 2nd Coming of Christ; not a separate coming before that.


Nothing in that verse mentions a rapture before the tribulation.
However, we do know from other passages that Jesus comes from Heaven 'after the great tribulation' (Matthew 24:29-30, Mark 13:26)





Interesting that the OP states this is not a 2nd Coming verse; when nothing in this verse mentions a rapture 'before the great tribulation'; and this verse 15 explicitily states it is at the Coming of the Lord.


The context of the Coming of the Lord in Revelation, is never mentioned to be before the great tribulation. Revelation's entire theme, is the anticipate of His great Return and Revelation from Heaven.

Chapter 19 best describes His return from Heaven....that is what Christians await.
Revelation mentions no coming of Christ before the Great Tribulation.

From what you have said regarding Rev.19 it is also the same scripture that states that the beast and the false prophet will be here at his return, this puts their reign before the tribulation right up to Christs return.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This cannot be a past event, since jesu does not return until the 7th trumpet, just after the gathering at Armageddon.

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 08:31 PM
right up to Christs return.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This cannot be a past event, since jesu does not return until the 7th trumpet, just after the gathering at Armageddon.


I don't think this is a past event. Only Full-Preterists would typically teach that this is a past event; and advancing Full-Preterism is against forum rules.

I believe the Revelation 19 Return of Christ is very much future. All the wicked will be destroyed and cast into the fire when Christ returns; to make the creation perfect, and to release it from the bondage and curse of sin and death.

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2008, 08:39 PM
I don't think this is a past event. Only Full-Preterists would typically teach that this is a past event; and advancing Full-Preterism is against forum rules.

I believe the Revelation 19 Return of Christ is very much future. All the wicked will be destroyed and cast into the fire when Christ returns; to make the creation perfect, and to release it from the bondage and curse of sin and death.

So the beast and the false prophet must also be future, when they are cast alive into the fire,according to Revelation 19.

This also shows that the beast antichrist complete all that is written they will do before Jesus returns, since when he does return they are destroyed. That is when the rapture occures at his return.

David Taylor
Feb 13th 2008, 08:54 PM
So the beast and the false prophet must also be future, when they are cast alive into the fire,according to Revelation 19.


Sure, they and all the wicked are severed from among the just, and cast into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Righteous will then shine brightly and forever in the kingdom of the Son.



This also shows that the beast antichrist complete all that is written they will do before Jesus returns, since when he does return they are destroyed. That is when the rapture occures at his return.

I agree; when Jesus returns; all the wicked are destroyed and cast into the lake of fire; then Christ's delivers the kingdom wherein dwelleth righteousness; and sin and death are removed from His Creation.

Vivi
Feb 14th 2008, 01:18 AM
So there will be no rapture? All that I've endured all the sin I've resisted may be for nothing since ill be around for the mark of the beast and might give in. Then whats the use in going on?

ServantoftheKing
Feb 14th 2008, 01:40 AM
Vivi,

There will be a rapture, just not a pre-trib rapture. The church is called up by the sounding of the seventh trumpet. The point of going on is that we are still here, we still have the opportunity to be a blessing to those around us as well as be blessed by God through those He places in our lives. Even during the troublesome times ahead, God is in control. He hasn't ever lost control. And it is God that will prevail. Greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world.

ServantoftheKing

David Taylor
Feb 14th 2008, 01:51 AM
So there will be no rapture? All that I've endured all the sin I've resisted may be for nothing since ill be around for the mark of the beast and might give in. Then whats the use in going on?

I Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

quiet dove
Feb 14th 2008, 03:20 AM
So there will be no rapture? All that I've endured all the sin I've resisted may be for nothing since ill be around for the mark of the beast and might give in. Then whats the use in going on?

Vivi, I am pre trib and fully believe scripture supports a pre trib rapture, but the fact remains, that every day, with every decision, every thought, word and deed, we should follow Christ. Any believer at any time could be in a situation to either deny Christ and live or refuse to deny Him and die. Pre trib rapture or no pre trib rapture.

I don't believe I will be here to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast. But the fact is, I am here today, what am I choosing? Am I choosing the way of the world or the way of the Spirit? Resisting sin is what we strive to do everyday, but we must read our Bibles in prayer, spending time with Jesus, praying/talking to Him, build our relationship with Him, kinda like building a relationship with anyone, it takes time, it takes determining our priorities. By building our relationship with Him, day by day, these things do not scare us, but it takes time and growing in Him.

Whether or not there will be a pre trib rapture depends on how one interprets scripture and I for one interpret it to support a pre trib rapture. But my confidence in pre trib, or someone elses confidence in post trib makes neither one of us correct. You will have to spend much time, searching the scriptures in prayer to have peace with end times subjects.

We do not resist sin because we won't be here for the tribulation, we resist sin because we desire to please our God and our Savior and be obedient to Him, to hear and see His will.

Roelof
Feb 14th 2008, 03:58 AM
Another viewpoint on the Rapture:



Heaven Is So Real – Flying Like Birds (The Rapture)




(Choo Nam Thomas, Heaven is so Real, 2003, ISBN 0-620-34622-1)




A MIRACULOUS EVENT will be happening in the very near future. Though the Bible never uses the word rapture, the apostle Paul describes a cataclysmic event in which the Lord Jesus will return from heaven with His saints to "rapture" His church. It will be the ultimate experience for all those who know Jesus. (p137)

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALONIANS 4:15-18

But those who don't know the Lord will appear before the judgment seat of Christ where they will hear the sentence that their lack of faith deserves - "for the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). Those who know Jesus, however, will receive the free gift of God's grace - "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).

Earth's environment was noisy and busy. Then I began to see what all the activity was about.
The air was filled with white, moving objects. As the vision clarified, I saw people wearing white robes flying throughout the air. People were popping out of the earth everywhere and flying up into the air. The sky was literally filled with flying people, like birds in migration.
I saw my one-year-old granddaughter. She was wearing a white robe, and her hair had grown to shoulder length. She looked pretty grown up. At first I saw her at her house in normal clothing. Then suddenly she was wearing a white robe and flying through the air. I was dumb­founded by the vision. It certainly seemed to confirm that the Lord would be returning in the very near future.
Then I saw my daughter's ten-month-old daughter. She does not have much hair right now, but in the vision her hair was down to her shoul­ders, and, like my other granddaughter, she was flying through the air.
"Daughter" He said, "I must show you these things so you can tell the whole world what is going to happen. I love all My children, and I want them to realize I am coming for them soon, but I cannot bring those who don't live according to My word cause they are not ready for Me. (p141)

The truth is, however, that most of the things God has shown me are recorded in the Bible. (p138)

2Witnesses
Feb 14th 2008, 04:04 AM
Vivi, I am pre trib and fully believe scripture supports a pre trib rapture, but the fact remains, that every day, with every decision, every thought, word and deed, we should follow Christ. Any believer at any time could be in a situation to either deny Christ and live or refuse to deny Him and die. Pre trib rapture or no pre trib rapture.

I don't believe I will be here to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast. But the fact is, I am here today, what am I choosing? Am I choosing the way of the world or the way of the Spirit? Resisting sin is what we strive to do everyday, but we must read our Bibles in prayer, spending time with Jesus, praying/talking to Him, build our relationship with Him, kinda like building a relationship with anyone, it takes time, it takes determining our priorities. By building our relationship with Him, day by day, these things do not scare us, but it takes time and growing in Him.

Whether or not there will be a pre trib rapture depends on how one interprets scripture and I for one interpret it to support a pre trib rapture. But my confidence in pre trib, or someone elses confidence in post trib makes neither one of us correct. You will have to spend much time, searching the scriptures in prayer to have peace with end times subjects.

We do not resist sin because we won't be here for the tribulation, we resist sin because we desire to please our God and our Savior and be obedient to Him, to hear and see His will.

Quiet Dove,

Good attitude! And good words of encouragement! OUr call is to faithfulness in whatever we may face. Our life, or our death, is to glorify the Lord.

2Witnesses

Firstfruits
Feb 14th 2008, 09:14 AM
Vivi, I am pre trib and fully believe scripture supports a pre trib rapture, but the fact remains, that every day, with every decision, every thought, word and deed, we should follow Christ. Any believer at any time could be in a situation to either deny Christ and live or refuse to deny Him and die. Pre trib rapture or no pre trib rapture.

I don't believe I will be here to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast. But the fact is, I am here today, what am I choosing? Am I choosing the way of the world or the way of the Spirit? Resisting sin is what we strive to do everyday, but we must read our Bibles in prayer, spending time with Jesus, praying/talking to Him, build our relationship with Him, kinda like building a relationship with anyone, it takes time, it takes determining our priorities. By building our relationship with Him, day by day, these things do not scare us, but it takes time and growing in Him.

Whether or not there will be a pre trib rapture depends on how one interprets scripture and I for one interpret it to support a pre trib rapture. But my confidence in pre trib, or someone elses confidence in post trib makes neither one of us correct. You will have to spend much time, searching the scriptures in prayer to have peace with end times subjects.

We do not resist sin because we won't be here for the tribulation, we resist sin because we desire to please our God and our Savior and be obedient to Him, to hear and see His will.

I do not believe that we have said that there is no rapture according to what is written, however if we believe that the rapture takes place at Christs return at the seventh/last trumpet, after the tribulation, then all these things happen after the beast/antichrist have done all that is prophesied he will do before Christs return and the rapture.

Jesus does not return until when comes to destroy the beast and the false prophet, according to scripture he does not come before.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

quiet dove
Feb 14th 2008, 07:10 PM
I do not believe that we have said that there is no rapture according to what is written, however if we believe that the rapture takes place at Christs return at the seventh/last trumpet, after the tribulation, then all these things happen after the beast/antichrist have done all that is prophesied the will do before Christs return and the rapture.

Jesus does not return until when comes to destroy the beast and the false prophet, according to scripture he does not come before.




Hi FF,
I was not accusing anyone of having said or not said anything.

I do not agree that the 7th trumpet and the last trumpet must be the same trumpet. As I have said before, in scripture, the trumpet sounded for a distinct reason, not three or four reasons, such as the last trumpet in Corinthians being to gather, regardless of when; and the seventh trumpet of Revelation being to signal judgment. Two different trumpets sounding for two different announcements.

And I would agree that Rev 19:19-20 are speaking of Christ Second Advent, but in backing up and starting from Rev 19:14 we see saints in that army coming with Him. Rev 19:19-20 being about the Second Advent does in know way hinder there having been a previous pre trib rapture.

Firstfruits
Feb 14th 2008, 07:28 PM
Hi FF,
I was not accusing anyone of having said or not said anything.

I do not agree that the 7th trumpet and the last trumpet must be the same trumpet. As I have said before, in scripture, the trumpet sounded for a distinct reason, not three or four reasons, such as the last trumpet in Corinthians being to gather, regardless of when; and the seventh trumpet of Revelation being to signal judgment. Two different trumpets sounding for two different announcements.

And I would agree that Rev 19:19-20 are speaking of Christ Second Advent, but in backing up and starting from Rev 19:14 we see saints in that army coming with Him. Rev 19:19-20 being about the Second Advent does in know way hinder there having been a previous pre trib rapture.

Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet.
Jesus comes at the last trumpet.
Jesus comes in Rev.19:19-20.

Jesus returns only once and it is then that the dead in Christ are raised, and then them that are alive and remain.

Are there other scriptures apart from those used for his return to show he returns for his saints before he comes for his saints?

David Taylor
Feb 14th 2008, 07:30 PM
The 7th Trumpet presents:

1) The Time of the dead, when they are judged and rewarded
2) When the kingdoms of this Earth become the Kingdoms of Christ
3) When Time shall be no longer

The Finish-line for human history.

Firstfruits
Feb 14th 2008, 07:43 PM
The 7th Trumpet presents:

1) The Time of the dead, when they are judged and rewarded
2) When the kingdoms of this Earth become the Kingdoms of Christ
3) When Time shall be no longer

The Finish-line for human history.

So for us to say that Christ could come before the 7th trumpet and for a rapture before he is to return would therefore make that unscriptual, would that be correct?

David Taylor
Feb 14th 2008, 08:30 PM
So for us to say that Christ could come before the 7th trumpet and for a rapture before he is to return would therefore make that unscriptual, would that be correct?

I can't speak for everyone.

I believe Christ will Return from Heaven '1 more time' and when He does; the eternal state will be set.

All who are in the graves will be called for; His children to be change incorruptible and immortal; forevermore to be with the Lord; those who are the Devils to be judged and cast into the eternal lake of Fire....then the New Heaven and New Earth will be present; perfect, sinless, dead and all vestiges of corruption removed; and God and His people will live together forever more in righteousness.

quiet dove
Feb 14th 2008, 10:04 PM
Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet.
Jesus comes at the last trumpet.
Jesus comes in Rev.19:19-20.

Jesus returns only once and it is then that the dead in Christ are raised, and then them that are alive and remain.

Are there other scriptures apart from those used for his return to show he returns for his saints before he comes for his saints?

FF, there are a lot of aspects of future prophecy to consider that are beyond the scope of this thread, such as the Millennial Kingdom of Christ


So for us to say that Christ could come before the 7th trumpet and for a rapture before he is to return would therefore make that unscriptual, would that be correct?Again I state what I did in my first post. You are stating your view as fact, when it is your understanding, just as I state my understanding as fact, because to us our views are fact. However, that does not equate to either one of us being correct. So whether or not my view is unscriptural is based on your interpretation, and vise versa.

My point to the OP is stay in study and prayer, do not base the relationship with Christ on any end time view, including the rapture. All that is secondary to developing a solid relationship with Christ and to take the learning one day at a time without letting it spiral into confusion that will effect the relationship with Christ. My point was to encourage the OP in the priority of Jesus and our relationship with Him, not go round and round about the rapture.

Merton
Feb 15th 2008, 01:03 AM
Hi FF,
I was not accusing anyone of having said or not said anything.

I do not agree that the 7th trumpet and the last trumpet must be the same trumpet. As I have said before, in scripture, the trumpet sounded for a distinct reason, not three or four reasons, such as the last trumpet in Corinthians being to gather, regardless of when; and the seventh trumpet of Revelation being to signal judgment. Two different trumpets sounding for two different announcements.

And I would agree that Rev 19:19-20 are speaking of Christ Second Advent, but in backing up and starting from Rev 19:14 we see saints in that army coming with Him. Rev 19:19-20 being about the Second Advent does in know way hinder there having been a previous pre trib rapture.

The 7th trumpet of Revelation is the trumpet resurrection which must occur previous to the great trumpet of the Jubilee (Isaiah ch 27:13) when Christ and the saints are involved in the deliverence of Jerusalem like birds flying (Isaiah ch 31:4 on) and the gathering of their believing children (Rev.18:1-4) the children of Zion to Israel, (Isaiah ch 49) cleaned out of sinners (Zech 12)and dwelling in safety as Ez.ch 38 and 39 describes when Christ will destroy the surrounding armies led by the beast who are enraged that the believers have left them as did the believers from Egypt in the time of Pharoah.

Christ's coming down from the (dark) clouds with the resurrected saints to destroy the wicked at the armageddon event is not the time of the resurrection for He has been over Jerusalem with the saints who have become the strength of the mortal believers there (Zech 12) while the five vials and gathering (Jer 16:16 read from 14) was in progress in the previous 30 days leading up to Armageddon.



Jesus told us that He would send (the spirit which was upon) Elijah before that great and terrible day would come lest that God would smite the earth with a curse, (Mal 4) (which answers the question "will there be faith upon the earth when He comes" ) and given that Jesus does appear with a rainbow upon His head at the seventh trumpet in Rev.ch 10 when the mystery of God will be finished, and truly the hearts of the fathers are returning to the children in these last days, so yes the earth will not be cursed but shall be preserved and blessed for the children of men who believe the last days preaching of the Kingdom of God promised by God (Mat 24:14 Rev.14), as described throughout the OT to fully come (it is only partial among saints now) among all mortal men who believe who build houses, plant vines, and have children. Isaiah ch 60 to ch 66, Rev.21:1 to Rev.22:5

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house:

Merton

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 09:01 AM
I can't speak for everyone.

I believe Christ will Return from Heaven '1 more time' and when He does; the eternal state will be set.

All who are in the graves will be called for; His children to be change incorruptible and immortal; forevermore to be with the Lord; those who are the Devils to be judged and cast into the eternal lake of Fire....then the New Heaven and New Earth will be present; perfect, sinless, dead and all vestiges of corruption removed; and God and His people will live together forever more in righteousness.

My question was in regards to that which is written and the understanding that Christ will return only once according to those scriptures.

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 09:09 AM
FF, there are a lot of aspects of future prophecy to consider that are beyond the scope of this thread, such as the Millennial Kingdom of Christ

Again I state what I did in my first post. You are stating your view as fact, when it is your understanding, just as I state my understanding as fact, because to us our views are fact. However, that does not equate to either one of us being correct. So whether or not my view is unscriptural is based on your interpretation, and vise versa.

My point to the OP is stay in study and prayer, do not base the relationship with Christ on any end time view, including the rapture. All that is secondary to developing a solid relationship with Christ and to take the learning one day at a time without letting it spiral into confusion that will effect the relationship with Christ. My point was to encourage the OP in the priority of Jesus and our relationship with Him, not go round and round about the rapture.

My understanding is based on that which is written, which I believe we all accept shall be.

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Accoding to this scripture all this takes place at his coming. Is this your understanding?

David Taylor
Feb 15th 2008, 03:07 PM
Those who hold to the Pretrib view believe in 2 more future Comings of Christ from Heaven.

One secret, unknown coming from Heaven 7 years prior to Armegeddon,
and another one at Armegeddon as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 03:39 PM
Those who hold to the Pretrib view believe in 2 more future Comings of Christ from Heaven.

One secret, unknown coming from Heaven 7 years prior to Armegeddon,
and another one at Armegeddon as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Is there scriptual evidence regarding what is believed which does not contradict what Jesus said?

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Did Jesus mean what he said?

Whose will should we follow?

David Taylor
Feb 15th 2008, 03:56 PM
From the Pretribulational viewpoint perspective, 'the last day' does not mean a single day, but a range of days; that would allow inclusion of 1) the Pretrib Rapture resurrection; 2) the resurrection of trib and OT saints 7 years later; and 3) the resurrection of Premill saints 1007 years after the first group.

"Last Day", cannot really mean 'last day' from that viewpoint, since it believes in at least 3 separate resurrections of at least 3 different groups of believers with each one being many years apart and distinguished from one another.

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 04:15 PM
From the Pretribulational viewpoint perspective, 'the last day' does not mean a single day, but a range of days; that would allow inclusion of 1) the Pretrib Rapture resurrection; 2) the resurrection of trib and OT saints 7 years later; and 3) the resurrection of Premill saints 1007 years after the first group.

"Last Day", cannot really mean 'last day' from that viewpoint, since it believes in at least 3 separate resurrections of at least 3 different groups of believers with each one being many years apart and distinguished from one another.

Again let me ask, is there scripture to back up what is believed?

John146
Feb 15th 2008, 04:25 PM
Again let me ask, is there scripture to back up what is believed?

Are you asking if there's Scripture to back up the pre-trib theory? I don't believe there is, but they have Scripture that they think supports their theory.

But, somehow, pre-trib does not equate the coming of Christ in that passage you quoted in your previous post (1 Thess 4:13-17) with the coming of Christ in these passages:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:29-31

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. - 2 Thess 1:7-10

1 Thess 4:13-17 clearly mentions "the coming of the Lord" as being the time when the Lord descends from heaven and His people are gathered together to meet Him in the air. Matthew 24:29-31 says that this happens "after the tribulation of those days" and 2 Thess 1:7-10 says that He also destroys the unbelievers at that time. There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus will come again two more times, yet that is what those who hold to the pre-trib theory believe.


Eric

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 04:50 PM
Are you asking if there's Scripture to back up the pre-trib theory? I don't believe there is, but they have Scripture that they think supports their theory.

But, somehow, pre-trib does not equate the coming of Christ in that passage you quoted in your previous post (1 Thess 4:13-17) with the coming of Christ in these passages:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:29-31

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. - 2 Thess 1:7-10

1 Thess 4:13-17 clearly mentions "the coming of the Lord" as being the time when the Lord descends from heaven and His people are gathered together to meet Him in the air. Matthew 24:29-31 says that this happens "after the tribulation of those days" and 2 Thess 1:7-10 says that He also destroys the unbelievers at that time. There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus will come again two more times, yet that is what those who hold to the pre-trib theory believe.


Eric

Thanks Eric,

Maybe if there is someone that has a different understanding of Christs coming, along with the scriptures to confirm what is believed then we could compare scriptures for a better understanding of where we stand regarding the various beliefs concerning Christs return.

Firstfruits

John146
Feb 15th 2008, 04:55 PM
Thanks Eric,

Maybe if there is someone that has a different understanding of Christs coming, along with the scriptures to confirm what is believed then we could compare scriptures for a better understanding of where we stand regarding the various beliefs concerning Christs return.

Firstfruits

There are plenty of threads where that's already been done. You could do a search and you'll see there's a lot of them. I'm not sure that is the purpose of this particular thread, though. But you could start yet another thread debating pre-trib, post-trib, etc. if you want. It appears that the OP of this thread was having some confusion about whether there would even be a "rapture" at all. Most people would define the "rapture" as simply the act of believers being caught up to meet Christ in the air. With that definition of "rapture", 1 Thess 4:13-17 makes it very clear that it will happen.

Firstfruits
Feb 15th 2008, 05:03 PM
There are plenty of threads where that's already been done. You could do a search and you'll see there's a lot of them. I'm not sure that is the purpose of this particular thread, though. But you could start yet another thread debating pre-trib, post-trib, etc. if you want. It appears that the OP of this thread was having some confusion about whether there would even be a "rapture" at all. Most people would define the "rapture" as simply the act of believers being caught up to meet Christ in the air. With that definition of "rapture", 1 Thess 4:13-17 makes it very clear that it will happen.

With the scriptures used for the rapture it will happen, but it will only happen at the return of Christ.

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

David Taylor
Feb 15th 2008, 05:08 PM
Again let me ask, is there scripture to back up what is believed?

I personally don't believe there is; and that is why I left the Dispensational Premill view after originating from within it for 20 years.

However, those who still embrace that view, would tell you, "yes" there is.

I believe there is one resurrection; and it includes all humankind, and occurs at Christ's return.

Diggindeeper
Feb 15th 2008, 05:36 PM
I think some confusion happens when people get confused about the "wrath of God", and "the tribulation."

I offer that the tribulation is NOT the wrath of God, but it is rather the "wrath of satan" against the saints of God, and anything pertaining to righteousness of God. The "wrath of satan" targets only the saints of Almighty God, as in Rev. 12:17.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The "wrath of God" is clearly identified in Rev. 15:5-8, and continues into Rev. 16.

It was the "wrath of God" that fully destroyed everyone and all evil in the flood of Noah's day, and also in the total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah! The "wrath of God" always brings total destruction of evil, while leaving ONLY the pure and righteous.

yoSAMite
Feb 16th 2008, 01:25 AM
I've always believed in the rapture of the church and have looked forward to it but all these opinions and theories are just confusing me. Some say there's a pre-trib rapture, a halfway trib rapture and a post trib rapture and still others say there's no rapture at all. Is there biblical evidence that there is gonna be a rapture? I'm so confused help me out here.

To answer just your question - yes there will be a rapture. I believe the rapture is best described as the process of changing from our current bodies to a glorified body in order to see Jesus as He is (1 John 3:2).

Here's what Job says in 19:25-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

1 Thess 4:13-18 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which them are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Here's a physical description of the rapture. 1 Cor 15:50-55 "Now this I say, brethern, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?"

The major disagreement here between men and women who all love the Lord is the timing of when this will happen. My personal belief is that the rapture will happen sooner than later. My advice to you is to not be discouraged and live your life giving glory to the Father. We are encouraged in the Bible to look up for His quick imminent return, maranatha.

David Taylor
Feb 16th 2008, 02:04 AM
To answer just your question - yes there will be a rapture. I believe the rapture is best described as the process of changing from our current bodies to a glorified body in order to see Jesus as He is (1 John 3:2).

Here's what Job says in 19:25-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.



More Job....any a much clearer example of ....WHEN....

Job 14:10 "man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands."

Diggindeeper
Feb 16th 2008, 03:33 AM
To answer just your question - yes there will be a rapture. I believe the rapture is best described as the process of changing from our current bodies to a glorified body in order to see Jesus as He is (1 John 3:2).

Here's what Job says in 19:25-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

1 Thess 4:13-18 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which them are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Here's a physical description of the rapture. 1 Cor 15:50-55 "Now this I say, brethern, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?"

The major disagreement here between men and women who all love the Lord is the timing of when this will happen. My personal belief is that the rapture will happen sooner than later. My advice to you is to not be discouraged and live your life giving glory to the Father. We are encouraged in the Bible to look up for His quick imminent return, maranatha.

You are so right, Khoolaid! You said, "The major disagreement here between men and women who all love the Lord is the timing of when this will happen." That is the major difference.

But, you see, you also answered that question in a scripture you gave. You quoted this:
1 Cor 15:50-55 "Now this I say, brethern, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Christ will receive us unto himself AT THE LAST TRUMP! The dead will not be raised, and we will not be changed...till that last trump!

Thanks, Khoolaid! :hug:

Mark F
Feb 16th 2008, 03:52 AM
What about this, Jesus said "I will keep you from"?

Revelation 3:7....10;

7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, ......
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

This is to the "faithful Church", I find this rather clear and comforting.

I guess it depends on what Church you go to:D.

Roelof
Feb 16th 2008, 04:17 AM
I believe there is a Rapture.


RAPTURE PASSAGES (Before the Great Tribulation)

For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Rom 8:19)

When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. (Col 3:4)

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. (1Th 4:14)

For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. (1Th 4:15)

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. (1Th 4:16)

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

But that which you have, hold fast until I come. (Rev 2:25)

Diggindeeper
Feb 16th 2008, 04:44 AM
But Roelof, what is "the wrath to come?"

boafa
Feb 16th 2008, 06:40 AM
There is not a rapture. The word rapture is not in the word of God, so therefore it's not scriptual. The word "rapture" and it's theroy was started in 1832 by a woman named Martha McDonald. Who at the time was commited in a mental instituation. She claimed to have gotten this revelation from God.

I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed.....

The 7th trump is the last trump. It's at this moment Christ returns, and it's at this moment, that in the twinkling of an eye, the dead shall be raised incorruptable, in the Greek incorruptable means immortal. All that are still living at this time, will be changed. Changed into what......our spiritual bodies....... This all happens after the 5 month tribulation, and will be the first day of the millenium. I'ts also at this time when every knee shall bow, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

boafa
Feb 16th 2008, 07:42 AM
Roelof, I Th 1:10 I don't believe has anything to do with rapture....for one thing rapture isn't scriptual. The subject is idol worship. The wrath to come is talking about the second death, which will come to those who die in their sin for worshipping idols. This will take place at the Great White Throne judgement. But by waiting on Christ which delivered us....means waiting for his second advent.....and notice this is past tense..... he has already deliverd us, by paying the price at Calvary, to those who believe.....

Maybe i'm missin' something, can you elaborte on how this has anything to do with, what you call pre trib rapture......

Thanks

quiet dove
Feb 16th 2008, 05:28 PM
There is not a rapture. The word rapture is not in the word of God, so therefore it's not scriptual. The word "rapture" and it's theroy was started in 1832 by a woman named Martha McDonald. Who at the time was commited in a mental instituation. She claimed to have gotten this revelation from God.

I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed.....

The 7th trump is the last trump. It's at this moment Christ returns, and it's at this moment, that in the twinkling of an eye, the dead shall be raised incorruptable, in the Greek incorruptable means immortal. All that are still living at this time, will be changed. Changed into what......our spiritual bodies....... This all happens after the 5 month tribulation, and will be the first day of the millenium. I'ts also at this time when every knee shall bow, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

You need to do more research, your information is incorrect. Margrete McDonalds vision does not even read pre trib.

Merton
Feb 16th 2008, 10:27 PM
The 7th trumpet occurs some 30 days before the Armageddon event.

Jerusalem is liberated from its sinners and from the army of Joel ch 2 -6th trumpet, and all Israel is gathered within those 30 days of vials before the 7th vial of Armageddon which is the resolution of God saying that He would seek to destroy all nations who come against Jerusalem. zech 12

The Lord must be there in Israel, and His people dwelling in safety without bars or gates when Armageddon occurs. Ez.38

There is no rapture or resurrection of any kind at or immediately before Armageddon because scripture does not state it.

Wrath only begins at the return of Christ from Heaven to raise the saints, for vengence does not begin with Armageddon but ends with it. 2 Thes ch1

The warning that believers should keep their garments clean in Rev.16 is not specificlly applicable only to that time, so the promise to keep believers from the time of testing which tries all mankind can only refer to the time when (new) mortal believers who are to enter the millennium are tested, who were not resurrected and those who until then failed the test previously (luke 12:45-48)

It can not be true that the time of testing for the whole world is during the 3.5 year period, for mankind is marrying and giving in marriage until the resurrection and wrath of God of the vials begin.(as in the days of Noah)

However during the 3.5 years it is the time of testing of the believers who hope to be resurrected and to this the trumpets address, not any of the vials. (judgment must begin at the house of God)

Whereas the time of the vials is the testing of those who believed the church message in the 3.5 years before the resurrection (along with those who did not) for he is blessed who waits (in faith and trust) until the 1335 day of the greater Pentecost of Rev.22:1-2.

Merton.

Just a Door Keeper
Feb 17th 2008, 12:43 AM
There is not a rapture. The word rapture is not in the word of God, so therefore it's not scriptual. The word "rapture" and it's theroy was started in 1832 by a woman named Martha McDonald. Who at the time was commited in a mental instituation. She claimed to have gotten this revelation from God.

I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed.....

The 7th trump is the last trump. It's at this moment Christ returns, and it's at this moment, that in the twinkling of an eye, the dead shall be raised incorruptable, in the Greek incorruptable means immortal. All that are still living at this time, will be changed. Changed into what......our spiritual bodies....... This all happens after the 5 month tribulation, and will be the first day of the millenium. I'ts also at this time when every knee shall bow, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Just because a word in not in the Bible does not make the teaching void. The word missions is not in the Bible and yet we know that the principle of missions is, and missions is very Biblical.
There is a rapture, but the Bible calls it a gathering. 1Thess.4:13-18 speaks of this. The Lord Jesus mentions it in Mt. 24:31. It is also mentioned in Rev. 7:9,14.
The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God, the whole 7 years is not the wrath, only a portion of the second half of the 7 year trib. is wrath. Read all references to the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament for info on the timing and nature of the Day of the Lord, which is the wrath of God.
Rev. is not in chronological order, ch 12,13,14 fit in before the trumpets, at about the 5th seal of ch.6.
The Lord Jesus comes in the clouds and removes Christians before the wrath is poured out, read Matt. ch. 24 to get the timing of it. Compare 1Thess.4:13-18 with Mt.24.
After the trumpets and vials are poured out, the Lord Jesus comes to earth, ch,19......
Let us know this, that the Lord Jesus Christ will return, He will gather His saints, His children together unto Him because He said so.
Which ever view you hold to, be sure you do because of your own Bible study and simply what the Bible teaches. Don't be quick to hold to a view that you have just heard of, or read of, or because others hold to it. Your beliefs must be based on what the Scriptures say and not man.
This is sometimes a volatile topic, let's guard our hearts from any hatred or ill will to another.

Just a Door Keeper
Feb 17th 2008, 12:50 AM
I forgot to mention, there is a good book explaining the rapture and the wrath of God, it's called, THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH by Marvin Rosenthal. Check the things he says with Scripture and it should help you.

jeffweeder
Feb 17th 2008, 01:04 AM
This is sometimes a volatile topic, let's guard our hearts from any hatred or ill will to another.

Amen to that.


The Lord Jesus comes in the clouds and removes Christians before the wrath is poured out, read Matt. ch. 24 to get the timing of it. Compare 1Thess.4:13-18 with Mt.24.

When Paul wrote 1 thess 4, he had matt 24 in mind, as he says its the word of the lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

What do you make of this statement in Rev 16;


The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.") 16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.


2 thess 2 puts the coming and the gathering (rapture) together.
According to Rev 16 he still hasnt come back--to gather us-- at the 6th bowl....

Diggindeeper
Feb 17th 2008, 03:42 AM
This chapter goes right along with Matthew 24, mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21:

Revelation 14:6-16 (Verses from Rev. 14 are in black.)
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Compare to Matthew 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
(See also Revelation chapers 17 and 18, which tells of the fall of Babylon.)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(See Revelation 13, which I refer to as the "Mark of the Beast" chapter of Revelation.)

This is what happens to those who take that "mark" or worship the beast and his image.
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Here we find the patience and endurance of the saints is rewarded, whether they meet death of not...It's Judgment day!

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Compare to Mark 13:9-13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Now, read very carefully the next 3 verses!
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Compare this to Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Compare the above verse with Mark 13:32
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

boafa
Feb 17th 2008, 03:47 AM
You need to do more research, your information is incorrect. Margrete McDonalds vision does not even read pre trib.

I did not say it read pre trib rapture.....I said she was the first to use the word rapture in 1832.

I was asking roelof how he got Rapture Before the Tribulation from I Th 1:10......

David Taylor
Feb 17th 2008, 01:45 PM
The hard part is convincing everyone that the last trumpet is really the last one. :o

DeafPosttrib
Feb 17th 2008, 02:23 PM
Just a Door Keeper,

I did read that book - "The Pre-Wrath Rapture" by Marvin Rosenthal in 1992. That book is good. But, he believes in two phases of second advent. His belief is familiar like as mid-tribulation rapture. Myself was pre-wrath for 8 years from year 1992 to 2000. Then, in year 2000, I became posttrib completely. Because I can easily see single final coming of Christ at the end of the world in the Bible. No way that I can find two phases of "second coming" or "second advent" in Bible. I realized that two phases of second advent is man-making doctrine. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what they saying according Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
Feb 17th 2008, 02:25 PM
By the way, at first, I was pretrib for 3 years from year 1989 to 1992, because I was taught by baptist church. Till my friends shew me of 2 Thess. 2:1-3; and Matt. 24:29-31. These passages caused me left pretrib camp, because it show much conflict of pretribulationism doctrine. I determined follow what the Bible saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

yoSAMite
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:54 AM
In a study I'm partaking in, I've come across what I think is another strong point for the rapture. In studying about Soteriology and the doctrine of Glorification it seems that the process of the rapture is the final step in salvation. Going from the physical sinful body to the sinless glorified body.

Chachynga
Mar 1st 2008, 10:55 PM
In a study I'm partaking in, I've come across what I think is another strong point for the rapture. In studying about Soteriology and the doctrine of Glorification it seems that the process of the rapture is the final step in salvation. Going from the physical sinful body to the sinless glorified body.

That's done in the twinkle of an eye.

This whole thing can be summed up by saying the rapture is not found in scripture so why fussy over it.

yoSAMite
Mar 2nd 2008, 01:48 AM
That's done in the twinkle of an eye.
This whole thing can be summed up by saying the rapture is not found in scripture so why fussy over it.What's done in the twinkling of an eye? If we change from the physical body to the spiritual, glorified body is that not the rapture?

Firstfruits
Mar 2nd 2008, 11:51 AM
What's done in the twinkling of an eye? If we change from the physical body to the spiritual, glorified body is that not the rapture?

Would you then say that as it is written Jesus comes back at the seventh trumpet according to Gods promise?

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

According to what is written this is after the tribulation, since the seventh trumpet is also the last trumpet.

yoSAMite
Mar 2nd 2008, 11:32 PM
Would you then say that as it is written Jesus comes back at the seventh trumpet according to Gods promise?

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. I don't disagree at all that this a rapture verse.



Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

According to what is written this is after the tribulation, since the seventh trumpet is also the last trumpet.
I don't agree that this a rapture verse. As I think about this, I'm not sure that unsaved souls receive spiritual bodies. I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong on this.

Firstfruits
Mar 3rd 2008, 04:14 PM
I don't disagree at all that this a rapture verse.


I don't agree that this a rapture verse. As I think about this, I'm not sure that unsaved souls receive spiritual bodies. I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong on this.

According to the following when the seventh angel begin s to sound what God has promised his servants should be complete;

Rev 10:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So if all is finished by then, what is there left to come?

Clifton
Mar 3rd 2008, 05:14 PM
That's done in the twinkle of an eye.

This whole thing can be summed up by saying the rapture is not found in scripture so why fussy over it.

It's terminology is derived from the Latin Vulgate:

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (1 Thess 4:17 LV)

The "rapture" words are used in some English Bibles, including in the English translation of Hebrew Scriptures.

Here's one for the Greek scripture:


Afterward, we the living who are still around, will all together with them at the same moment, be raptured in clouds to a meeting with the Master in the air. And so we shall always remain together with the Master. (1 Thess 4:17 MHM)

It is a "quickening, etc." - At this point, I cannot remember whether or not if this "seizing" will be in a stealth mode - that's one of those "memory refresher" courses that awaits me.:)

Clifton
Mar 4th 2008, 01:49 AM
It is a "quickening, etc." - At this point, I cannot remember whether or not if this "seizing" will be in a stealth mode - that's one of those "memory refresher" courses that awaits me.:)

Yea, did that today a bit. The Harpazo, Rapture (as it is called here), Quickening, etc. is not going to be stealth (i.e. "Secret" - people not seeing the saints being seized) - In the past, I had attempted to find out where "THE SECRET RAPTURE" Doctrine came from - I could never trace it back further than 19th Century, blaming John Nelson Darby. BUT, if someone knows of earlier literature upholding the "Secret" part of it, e.g. a stealth rapture, I am all ears!:D

Blessings.

P.S. “Rapture” includes something “ecstatically” about it. In fact, a synonym for “rapture” is “ecstasy”, and in fact, if translating the English word to modern Greek, you get “ec-stas-he“ - this spelling variation is not used, but others of the same word are used: see Strong’s Number 1611:
http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1611

Yep Saints - a holy buzz! :D

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 10:19 AM
Yea, did that today a bit. The Harpazo, Rapture (as it is called here), Quickening, etc. is not going to be stealth (i.e. "Secret" - people not seeing the saints being seized) - In the past, I had attempted to find out where "THE SECRET RAPTURE" Doctrine came from - I could never trace it back further than 19th Century, blaming John Nelson Darby. BUT, if someone knows of earlier literature upholding the "Secret" part of it, e.g. a stealth rapture, I am all ears!:D

Blessings.

P.S. “Rapture” includes something “ecstatically” about it. In fact, a synonym for “rapture” is “ecstasy”, and in fact, if translating the English word to modern Greek, you get “ec-stas-he“ - this spelling variation is not used, but others of the same word are used: see Strong’s Number 1611:
http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1611

Yep Saints - a holy buzz! :D


It will not be a secret, other than the fact that for those who do not watch, and are not ready, it will be unexpected, but the signs will have been there for us to know that the time is near or at hand.

Firstfruits

markdrums
Mar 4th 2008, 12:49 PM
John 5: 28-29 explains it well!! And it doesn't sound like a secret, or JUST the church, or like there's anyone "left behind"....
Jesus describes that day like this:
John 5: 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

It's pretty clear cut what & when the "rapture" is.

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 01:39 PM
John 5: 28-29 explains it well!! And it doesn't sound like a secret, or JUST the church, or like there's anyone "left behind"....
Jesus describes that day like this:
John 5: 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

It's pretty clear cut what & when the "rapture" is.

To whom was Jesus speaking when he gave this prophesy?

John 5: 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Clifton
Mar 4th 2008, 03:50 PM
It will not be a secret, other than the fact that for those who do not watch, and are not ready, it will be unexpected, but the signs will have been there for us to know that the time is near or at hand.

Firstfruits

I believe what the "secret rapture" doctrine is that people will "vanish" all at once - much to the effect of a movie we watched in church about 34 years ago - a Christian man got up and started shaving (yes folks, they had electric shavers back in them days!:D), his non-Christian wife woke up in bed, and was listening to the radio about numerous people disappearing, and she went into the bathroom and saw the electric shaver dropped in the sink (her hubby had vanished).

From what I learned from the Greek, it will not be this way (otherwise, I think "klepto" would have been used). People will visibly witness the act and process.

Blessings.

yoSAMite
Mar 5th 2008, 09:35 PM
According to the following when the seventh angel begin s to sound what God has promised his servants should be complete;

Rev 10:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So if all is finished by then, what is there left to come?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If I read this correctly, it says "days" of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall "begin" to sound. This does not read like it is one moment event as you seem to be saying.

I'm also not sure what "mystery of God" will be finished in those days. Is it the mystery of the Babylon from Rev 17, the mystery of the rapture (1 Cor 15:51), the mystery of Christ and the church (Eph 5:32), the mystery of the Kingdom (Mark 4:11) or the mystery of the Gospel (Eph 3:4, Col 1:26-27).

ShirleyFord
Mar 5th 2008, 10:19 PM
I believe what the "secret rapture" doctrine is that people will "vanish" all at once - much to the effect of a movie we watched in church about 34 years ago - a Christian man got up and started shaving (yes folks, they had electric shavers back in them days!:D), his non-Christian wife woke up in bed, and was listening to the radio about numerous people disappearing, and she went into the bathroom and saw the electric shaver dropped in the sink (her hubby had vanished).




Clifton,

I saw that movie several times in church with my children back in the 70s. I thought it was solidly based on Scripture back then. But I never could find anywhere in the Bible that the Church will disappear off the planet, at least before Jesus comes.


Shirley

HisGrace
Mar 5th 2008, 11:04 PM
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


The church is going to removed before the wrath of the tribulation reigns on this earth.


2 Thess. 2 speaks about in the end times there will be someone who will exalt himself as God, but his wickedness will only be done in secret and his identity will be held back until 'he' is taken out of the way. This must mean the church, because it refers to Jesus' second coming later , saying that Jesus will consume him with the breath of his mouth and he will be destroyed by the splendor of his coming.

divaD
Mar 5th 2008, 11:39 PM
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


The church is going to removed before the wrath of the tribulation reigns on this earth.


2 Thess. 2 speaks about in the end times there will be someone who will exalt himself as God, but his wickedness will only be done in secret and his identity will be held back until 'he' is taken out of the way. This must mean the church, because it refers to Jesus' second coming later , saying that Jesus will consume him with the breath of his mouth and he will be destroyed by the splendor of his coming.




Perhaps you are confusing the wrath of satan during the trib, with the wrath of God at His return following the trib?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

If we look further into 1 Thessalonians, we can clearly idenify the wrath spoken of in this verse. And this wrath occurs after the trib when the Lord returns.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



1 Thessalonians 5:9 is speaking about what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:15.


Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


And since 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is speaking of God not appointing us to wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:2 indentifies that wrath, that we are not appointed to, as the day of the Lord, IOW, Christ's second and only coming back to the earth. Christ will only come back once, not multiple times.



Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Since Acts 1 tells us that He will return in like manner, we can know for certain that He will return in like manner that He left. And since He didn't ascend to heaven multiple times, neither will He return back to the earth multiple times.

HisGrace
Mar 6th 2008, 12:53 AM
Perhaps you are confusing the wrath of satan during the trib, with the wrath of God at His return following the trib?If you read about the Seven Trumpets you will see that God will bring unbelievable wrath to this earth during the tribulation.

Diggindeeper
Mar 6th 2008, 04:11 AM
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


The church is going to removed before the wrath of the tribulation reigns on this earth.


2 Thess. 2 speaks about in the end times there will be someone who will exalt himself as God, but his wickedness will only be done in secret and his identity will be held back until 'he' is taken out of the way. This must mean the church, because it refers to Jesus' second coming later , saying that Jesus will consume him with the breath of his mouth and he will be destroyed by the splendor of his coming.

But, the wrath of God is not the tribulation! This tells what the "wrath of God" is:

Revelation 15:5-8
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


Revelation 16:1-4, 8-21
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.


(verses 8-21)
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


So, you see, this is the "Wrath of God".

The tribulation is satan's wrath against anything or anyone Godly! The tribulation is the wrath of satan! Not the wrath of God.

finewine
Mar 6th 2008, 05:23 AM
In a study I'm partaking in, I've come across what I think is another strong point for the rapture. In studying about Soteriology and the doctrine of Glorification it seems that the process of the rapture is the final step in salvation. Going from the physical sinful body to the sinless glorified body.

To me that is dangerous theology. Salvation occurs at the moment you trust Christ as your Savior.
The final step of salvation is the trust in Christ.

Our position is already sinless because of Christ's blood.
Our fellowship can be interrupted by our sin.

Now Rapture to me has always been that moment in time when Christ takes the Christians out of the world before the beginning of the reign of the antichrist.
I Thessalonians 4:17.

II Thessalonians 3 talks about the taking away of the Holy Spirit before the antichrist is revealed. The Holy Spirit indwells the believers. They must be taken away and the world will be deluded into believing the lie, whatever it is, that explains our disappearance.

This chapter is why I believe in pre-tribulation rapture of the saints.

yoSAMite
Mar 6th 2008, 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khoolaid http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1549605#post1549605)
In a study I'm partaking in, I've come across what I think is another strong point for the rapture. In studying about Soteriology and the doctrine of Glorification it seems that the process of the rapture is the final step in salvation. Going from the physical sinful body to the sinless glorified body.

To me that is dangerous theology. Salvation occurs at the moment you trust Christ as your Savior.
The final step of salvation is the trust in Christ.

Our position is already sinless because of Christ's blood.
Our fellowship can be interrupted by our sin.

Now Rapture to me has always been that moment in time when Christ takes the Christians out of the world before the beginning of the reign of the antichrist.
I Thessalonians 4:17.

II Thessalonians 3 talks about the taking away of the Holy Spirit before the antichrist is revealed. The Holy Spirit indwells the believers. They must be taken away and the world will be deluded into believing the lie, whatever it is, that explains our disappearance.

This chapter is why I believe in pre-tribulation rapture of the saints.It is not a dangerous theology at all. The study that I'm listening to is on systematic theology from the Dallas Theological Seminary. Hardly an out of the mainstream evangelical school. It has nothing to do with our position in Christ. It is the changing of our physical sinful bodies to our sinless glorified bodies, a rapture if you will. The process of glorification also happens to the dead. FYI, I also believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church.

finewine
Mar 6th 2008, 01:11 PM
What I meant was that to say it was the final step in salvation can imply that you are not saved until the glorification.
DTS will not teach that.


You are saved and sealed with the Spirit at the moment you trust Christ as your savior.

divaD
Mar 6th 2008, 03:53 PM
If you read about the Seven Trumpets you will see that God will bring unbelievable wrath to this earth during the tribulation.



1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If this occurs before the tribulation, then what happens to the rest of the believers that are here during the trib? How do they get caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and be forever with Him, if this occurs pre-trib? But if this occurs after the trib, then these verses include all believers, and then can come to pass like they are written. Otherwise, the tribulation saints are left out of the picture and have no way to be saved, since all believers were already saved pre-trib.

HisGrace
Mar 6th 2008, 04:12 PM
But, the wrath of God is not the tribulation! This tells what the "wrath of God" is:

Revelation 15:
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden [B]vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:1-4, 8-21
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
You can't get much more crystal clear than 'vials of the wrath of God.' These scriptures are written during to the tribulation. I don't see satan's name in there anywhere.

Zephaniah 3:7 7 I said to the city, 'Surely you will fear me and accept correction!' Then her dwelling would not be cut off, nor all my punishments come upon her. But they were still eager to act corruptly in all they did.

8 Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD, "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them— all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger.

HisGrace
Mar 6th 2008, 04:23 PM
If this occurs before the tribulation, then what happens to the rest of the believers that are here during the trib? How do they get caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and be forever with Him, if this occurs pre-trib? But if this occurs after the trib, then these verses include all believers, and then can come to pass like they are written. Otherwise, the tribulation saints are left out of the picture and have no way to be saved, since all believers were already saved pre-trib. ALL pre-tribulation believers should be caught up and none left behind in the Rapture. There will people saved during the tribulation, and it is is believed that they will be caught away with the 144,000, whenever they leave this earth just before the Great Tribulation , which will introduce the mark of the beast during the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. In spite of the mark of the beast there will be many who will refuse to take the mark, and they are at the risk of being beheaded, but these martyrs will have a special place in heaven.

markdrums
Mar 6th 2008, 05:44 PM
ALL pre-tribulation believers should be caught up and none left behind in the Rapture. There will people saved during the tribulation, and it is is believed that they will be caught away with the 144,000, whenever they leave this earth just before the Great Tribulation , which will introduce the mark of the beast during the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. In spite of the mark of the beast there will be many who will refuse to take the mark, and they are at the risk of being beheaded, but these martyrs will have a special place in heaven.

The questions I've always had, which never made sense Are these:
Concerning a "Pre-Trib" Rapture of just the church, followed by 7 years tribulation, followed next by 1000 year "literal Earthly Reign" (with re-instituted animal sacrifices... etc.. etc...)
How does that fit?
How does it make sense?
Where does Jesus, or anyone else say the church will be taken out of the world, separately from everyone else?


The pre-trib Rapture wasn't taught by Jesus.
Look at Matthew Chapter 13- The Parable of the Wheat & Tares. How does the "Harvest" take place?
Mat 13:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&verse=30&version=kjv#30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


There's nothing about the wheat being taken out before the tares....

In John chapter 5 Jesus describes it like this: (Verses 28 & 29)
28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus also prayed the following:
Jhn 17:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

I've never been able to understand how this could be confused as "The Church" being taken away, while everyone else is "Left-Behind".
People have tried explaining it to me, but as they do, they start geting confused....

I'd like to figure out how & why many people have this view.
Does anyone here have a clear explanation they can give me?
LOL!! ;)

Thanks, & look forward to your replies.

quiet dove
Mar 6th 2008, 08:06 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If this occurs before the tribulation, then what happens to the rest of the believers that are here during the trib? How do they get caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and be forever with Him, if this occurs pre-trib? But if this occurs after the trib, then these verses include all believers, and then can come to pass like they are written. Otherwise, the tribulation saints are left out of the picture and have no way to be saved, since all believers were already saved pre-trib.

Being raptured is not salvation, or not what makes a person saved in Christ. Believers being raptured today does not prevent unbelievers from believing tomorrow and thus spending eternity with Christ just like the one previously raptured. Eventually, all who are in Christ Jesus, regardless of when they believed, will be resurrected to eternal life.

divaD
Mar 6th 2008, 08:23 PM
Being raptured is not salvation, or not what makes a person saved in Christ. Believers being raptured today does not prevent unbelievers from believing tomorrow and thus spending eternity with Christ just like the one previously raptured. Eventually, all who are in Christ Jesus, regardless of when they believed, will be resurrected to eternal life.



Yes, I realize that. When I spoke of being saved, I was speaking in terms of being saved from the wrath of God, like in being rescued from harm. That's one thing that would occur in the rapture, one would be saved from the wrath of God. I didn't mean to imply that I was talking about salvation.

HisGrace
Mar 7th 2008, 12:39 AM
The pre-trib Rapture wasn't taught by Jesus.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, WATCH.

Luke 21:34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36BE ALWAYS ON THE WATCH, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Luke 14:28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave.



Yes, I realize that. When I spoke of being saved, I was speaking in terms of being saved from the wrath of God, like in being rescued from harm. That's one thing that would occur in the rapture, one would be saved from the wrath of God. I didn't mean to imply that I was talking about salvation. Amen. I certainly don't expect to be around to share in the unbelievable wrath like the world has never known . God removed his saints before from his oncoming wrath. Look at what he did for Noah and his family and for Lot and his family.

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 01:21 AM
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, WATCH.

Luke 21:34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36BE ALWAYS ON THE WATCH, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Luke 14:28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave.


Amen. I certainly don't expect to be around to share in the unbelievable wrath like the world has never known . God removed his saints before from his oncoming wrath. Look at what he did for Noah and his family and for Lot and his family.

I totally get those verses. They do describe the Rapture. But what I'm not understanding yet, is how this describes a "Pre-Trib / Church Only" rapture.

I have NO DOUBT there is a "rapture" of those who are alive when Jesus returns... but given the context of verses like the parable of the "Wheat & Tares" along with Jesus' description in John 5:28-29, we're ALL called on that day; Living, Dead, Sinners, Saved...... Some will be condemned, & some will have an eternal relationship with their Savior.

None of the verses given in your example explain the logic behind "The Church ONLY" being taken out... while "all Hell breaks loose on Earth" (-so to speak.) LOL! ;)

AND, if the Church WERE the only people taken out, what would be the order of events after that? Because, If Christ "Returned" at his "Second Coming" to rapture US.... there would be more "RETURNS" of Jesus that would be necessary to complete the redemptive plan.
1. Rapture the church. (second coming)
2. Return for 1000 year Earthly reign. (third coming)
3. Return to "Dwell amongst his people in the New Heaven / New Earth." (fourth coming)

Something doesn't make sense there. :confused

Is there anything in scripture that tells us the church is caught up in a separate event from "The Harvest" like in the Wheat & Tares?
OR..... is it that the rapture IS "The Harvest"?
:o


Since this thread is titled "Is there a Rapture?" I won't go into the subject of the whole 1000 "millennial reign / temple sacrifices thing....

I agree there IS a "Rapture". But I'm trying to figure out where the "Pre-Trib / Church Only" outlook comes from.

Clifton
Mar 7th 2008, 01:30 AM
I came to the conclusion years ago to be a "ready-ist" - be ready to go at any given moment, no matter "how" you go. If you are with Christ, then you shall be with Christ (whether you believe it as asleep or in the Eternal Bode of Heaven).;)

Blessings.

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 01:54 AM
I came to the conclusion years ago to be a "ready-ist" - be ready to go at any given moment, no matter "how" you go. If you are with Christ, then you shall be with Christ (whether you believe it as asleep or in the Eternal Bode of Heaven).;)

Blessings.

I understand that, & agree whole-heartedly.
:)

I know the Bible gives us examples & facts that "a rapture" WILL OCCUR... I don't doubt that at all.
(Look at Enoch... He was walking with God & was "Translated" .... & never seen again.... We see Jesus ascending to Heaven in his resurrected, Glorified body.... We are taught the meaning of "The Harvest"... etc...
I'm just trying to find out where the evidence of a "Pre-Trib / Church only" rapture is taught.

I DO realize that there are areas of scripture that we can debate on, but don't have to divideover, as brothers & sisters in Christ. Eschatology is included in certain aspects; as in the "timing" of the Rapture. But there IS a line that can be crossed if not careful, that can lead to unbiblical, potentially blasphemous ideas.

All in all, I think Clifton presents the best key...
Watch, & be ready!
Don't focus on "current events / news / evil in the world..." FOCUS on GOD! Watch & be ready for Jesus' return at ANY MOMENT.

What this tells me is there is NO indication of when the Rapture will occur. And if you focus on evil in the world, you could get so caught up worrying & speculating about it that your relationship with God gets put on the back-burner.... and you could end up not being ready....

Diggindeeper
Mar 7th 2008, 06:02 AM
You can't get much more crystal clear than 'vials of the wrath of God.' These scriptures are written during to the tribulation. I don't see satan's name in there anywhere.

Zephaniah 3:7 7 I said to the city, 'Surely you will fear me and accept correction!' Then her dwelling would not be cut off, nor all my punishments come upon her. But they were still eager to act corruptly in all they did.

8 Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD, "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them— all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger.

These scriptures are not written during the tribulation. (How do you get that?)

The wrath of satan is here:

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Notice he makes WAR with those who keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ--CHRISTIANS!!

Revelation 13:4-17
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
He spues blasphemies from his mouth.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, (How in the world could he "make war with the saints" if they are ALREADY raptured? There's NO WAY he could!) and to overcome them: (he OVERCOMES them!) and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (POWER is given to him over everyone on the face of the earth!)

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, (That's how bad it will be! Christians will be greatly outnumbered!) whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. (Read that again! Hey...no lamb has HORNS!)

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, (Pretty powerful, and very convincing! This beast deceives those that dwell on the earth...see below...)

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. (This happened once before, but on a miniature scale...in the book of Daniel!! You died, if you did not bow to the image that was made my King Nebbuchadnezzar!
But God provided for the small remnanat of believers then, and He WILL do it again! Remember Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?)

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


That is the tribulation. (I already posted the "wrath of God.")

HisGrace
Mar 7th 2008, 06:10 PM
The questions I've always had, which never made sense Are these:
Concerning a "Pre-Trib" Rapture of just the church, followed by 7 years tribulation, followed next by 1000 year "literal Earthly Reign" (with re-instituted animal sacrifices... etc.. etc...)
How does that fit?
How does it make sense?
Where does Jesus, or anyone else say the church will be taken out of the world, separately from everyone else?

There's nothing about the wheat being taken out before the tares....

In John chapter 5 Jesus describes it like this: (Verses 28 & 29)
28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

I've never been able to understand how this could be confused as "The Church" being taken away, while everyone else is "Left-Behind".
People have tried explaining it to me, but as they do, they start geting confused....
John 5 is talking about the final judgment day, which is after the Rapture, tribulation and millenium . John 5:27 And he has given him authority to judge all mankind because he is the Son of Man.

We are told that "Ye must be born again", so if we haven't made that choice we will not be caught up in the Rapture. When the saints are out of the way the tribulation will immediately begin. People still will have a chance to be converted. At the final judgment day after the millenium, all of the unrighteous will arise from their graves and be judged.

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 06:37 PM
John 5 is talking about the final judgment day, which is after the Rapture, tribulation and millenium . John 5:27 And he has given him authority to judge all mankind because he is the Son of Man.

We are told that "Ye must be born again", so if we haven't made that choice we will not be caught up in the Rapture. When the saints are out of the way the tribulation will immediately begin. People still will have a chance to be converted. At the final judgment day after the millenium, all of the unrighteous will arise from their graves and be judged.

Are there TWO raptures then??
Because Jesus describes the rapture as "The Harvest" in Matthew 13. (Where the TARES are gathered first to burn in the fire, but the wheat is bundled & taken to the barn... this is EVERYONE being taken / caught up at the same time.)
MT 13:24-30
24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=11&y=5#) Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=11&y=5#) but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=11&y=5#) But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=11&y=5#) So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=11&y=5#) He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=11&y=5#) But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=11&y=5#)Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."

Also, John 5:28-29 is Jesus describing the same event when he says, 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
There's no separation of the church from the world.
Remember, on the "LAST DAY" when Jesus calls EVERYONE, (like in the above verses,) there will still be people living, & they too will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye, and caught up at the same time.

HisGrace
Mar 7th 2008, 06:40 PM
Many think that the devil is given carte blanche to take over the tribulation all at his own volition, but we see that God is still in control.

In Rev. 5 it speaks about the Lamb opens the scrolls and breaks the seals.
Rev. 5 speaks about the six seals. With the first seal the anti-christ is released. Peace is taken from the earth with the second seal. The third seal is shortage of food. With the fourth seal the anti-christ, with power from the devil, is given authority over one-fourth of the world "to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals. "

Fifth seal Verse 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony

Sixth Seal 13 I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. 13 Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from a tree shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky was rolled up like a scroll, and all of the mountains and islands were moved from their places.

15 Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”


The tribulation is in full force.



Lamb Breaks the Seventh Seal
Rev. 8: 1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal on the scroll, there was silence throughout heaven for about half an hour. 2 I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.
3 Then another angel with a gold incense burner came and stood at the altar. And a great amount of incense was given to him to mix with the prayers of God’s people as an offering on the gold altar before the throne.

4 The smoke of the incense, mixed with the prayers of God’s holy people, ascended up to God from the altar where the angel had poured them out. 5 Then the angel filled the incense burner with fire from the altar and threw it down upon the earth; and thunder crashed, lightning flashed, and there was a terrible earthquake

Right after the Lamb Breaks the Seventh Seal, the seven angels, with seven trumpets, prepare to blow their mighty blasts. with much more terror.You can read about them in Rev. 8 and 9.


Nobody can tell me that God's wrath is not involved in the tribulation. I did a full coverage on the book of Revelation on another Board, and perhaps can get permission to do so on this Board.

HisGrace
Mar 7th 2008, 07:24 PM
Are there TWO raptures then??
Because Jesus describes the rapture as "The Harvest" in Matthew 13. (Where the TARES are gathered first to burn in the fire, but the wheat is bundled & taken to the barn... this is EVERYONE being taken / caught up at the same time.) These two scriptures again are talking about the final judgment. In Matthew 13 we see that we may think many are good in the church, but the good will be separated from the bad. John 5 is talking about the wicked who will be raised from the dead for their final judgment, as mentioned before.

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 07:48 PM
These two scriptures again are talking about the final judgment. In Matthew 13 we see that we may think many are good in the church, but the good will be separated from the bad. John 5 is talking about the wicked who will be raised from the dead for their final judgment, as mentioned before.


Right, The Rapture IS the day of final judgment.
In John 5 it speaks of ALL in the grave will rise, some to eternal life, & some to eternal condemnation.

Also re-read Matthew 13:36 - 43 It's not about separating the "good" in church from the "bad" in church. It's separating the evil in the WORLD from the righteous in the world. If Good AND bad are Harvested at the same time, how is this different from John chapter 5?

36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Being gathered /taken / raptured is all on the same day as the judgment.

HisGrace
Mar 7th 2008, 08:48 PM
Right, The Rapture IS the day of final judgment.
In John 5 it speaks of ALL in the grave will rise, some to eternal life, & some to eternal condemnation. To rapture means to be carried away to heaven. The sinful will be resurrected, not raptured.


Rev. 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

(The sinful wil be sentenced to a second death.)



Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 09:50 PM
To rapture means to be carried away to heaven. The sinful will be resurrected, not raptured.


Rev. 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

(The sinful wil be sentenced to a second death.)



Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.

13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


The rapture is a descriptive word for "Being caught up / taken / Called upon" etc.
Jesus will give a shout and ALL will rise to stand before him.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The FIRST Resurrection takes place with our acceptance of Christ as our savior & substitute sacrifice. We "died" through Christ, & were "Born Again".
Just like Baptism represents that we're "Burying our old, dead self and being raised "new". (another symbolic example of resurrection.)
That is the first resurrection.

There aren't 2 different "physical" resurrections.
Only one, which happens when we're ALL called by Jesus. Both Good AND Evil.

HisGrace
Mar 8th 2008, 03:21 AM
The FIRST Resurrection takes place with our acceptance of Christ as our savior & substitute sacrifice. We "died" through Christ, & were "Born Again".
Just like Baptism represents that we're "Burying our old, dead self and being raised "new". (another symbolic example of resurrection.)
That is the first resurrection.

There aren't 2 different "physical" resurrections.
Only one, which happens when we're ALL called by Jesus. Both Good AND Evil.
Since we are talking about the end times, Rev.20:4 distinctly says that the first resurrection is when the martyrs are raised back from the dead and reign with Jesus for 1000 years, and Rev. 20:5 clearly says that the second resurrection is when the rest of the dead are resurrected from the grave to be judged a second death in eternity, as continued on in verse 13.

markdrums
Mar 8th 2008, 03:43 AM
Since we are talking about the tribulation, Rev.20:4 distinctly says that the first resurrection is when the martyrs are raised back from the dead and reign with Jesus for 1000 years, and Rev. 20:5 clearly says that the second resurrection is when the rest of the dead are resurrected from the grave to be judged a second death in eternity, as continued on in verse 13.


Does the Bible REALLY, DISTINCTLY say that?
Also...What is the "1000 years?" What is the meaning / context? And what happens during the "1000 years?"

How can the martyrs be raised without the unholy being raised? (when Jesus says "let them grow together, and at the harvest gather out first the tares & burn them...")
But also, Aren't the Martyrs ALREADY WITH GOD?
Paul tells us in 2 COR 5:6 "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".

Why would they need to be resurrected? Resurrection is a "physical event".
Currently, Heaven is a Spiritual kingdom. Only when we receive our glorified bodies, will there be a need for "physical resurrection".

Also, the resurrection on judgment day is not JUST of the wicked. (Need I re-paste John 5:28-29?)
WHO shall rise from the grave on that day???? Just the wicked, evil ones???? Or did Jesus say, ALL? (...some to eternal life & some to eternal condemnation...? something to that effect?)

How can the "good" be judged to a second death?? And why are they called out for eternal life, on the same day as the wicked?

HisGrace
Mar 8th 2008, 04:25 AM
Does the Bible REALLY, DISTINCTLY say that?
Also...What is the "1000 years?" What is the meaning / context? And what happens during the "1000 years?"

How can the martyrs be raised without the unholy being raised? (when Jesus says "let them grow together, and at the harvest gather out first the tares & burn them...")
But also, Aren't the Martyrs ALREADY WITH GOD?
Paul tells us in 2 COR 5:6 "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".The Raptured church came down with Jesus in his second coming. The martyrs are the ones who died during the tribulation, and they have to be resurrected again to reign with Jesus during the millenium, which will be a thousand years of peace on this earth.

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Why would they need to be resurrected? Resurrection is a "physical event".
Currently, Heaven is a Spiritual kingdom. Only when we receive our glorified bodies, will there be a need for "physical resurrection".

Also, the resurrection on judgment day is not JUST of the wicked. (Need I re-paste John 5:28-29?)
WHO shall rise from the grave on that day???? Just the wicked, evil ones???? Or did Jesus say, ALL? (...some to eternal life & some to eternal condemnation...? something to that effect?)

How can the "good" be judged to a second death?? And why are they called out for eternal life, on the same day as the wicked?

The only ones left to be resurrected after the first resurrection are the unjust.They have to be resurrected to be judged on the great judgment day with the good and the bad. The good will not be judged to a second death, because they will live with Christ forever when the new heaven and the new earth is formed, as explained in Rev 21.

finewine
Mar 10th 2008, 04:29 AM
I've always believed in the rapture of the church and have looked forward to it but all these opinions and theories are just confusing me. Some say there's a pre-trib rapture, a halfway trib rapture and a post trib rapture and still others say there's no rapture at all. Is there biblical evidence that there is gonna be a rapture? I'm so confused help me out here.

I believe that the those who are believers will be raptured before the tribulation.

I would be considered pre-trib.

I interpret the Bible literally and I believe that the church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.

I believe this position for the following reasons:

The church is a mystery: Ephesians 3:1-6 and Colossians 1;25-27. It was not revealed in the O.T. therefore could not be in any of the O.T. prophecy since the church did not have its existence until after Acts 2.

so the church could not be in the first 69 weeks of of Daniel's prophecy.

Since every passage dealing with the tribulation relates it to God's program for Israel, it is logical to state that the church will not be in the tribulation. Those that emerge from the tribulation are totally distinct from the Christians or the Church.

The word for 'dwell' in Revelation 3:10 refers to earth dwellers those who have identified themselves with the earth's commerce and religion. The judgment is directed towards the earth dwellers of the day not Christians.


I believe that before the Antichrist can be revealed the Holy Spirit must be removed. Because the Holy Spirit indwells believers we must be removed.

God's dealings are with Israel in the 70th week.

We can't be at the marriage feast of the Lamb if we are down on earth.

:)

markdrums
Mar 10th 2008, 06:26 AM
The Raptured church came down with Jesus in his second coming. The martyrs are the ones who died during the tribulation, and they have to be resurrected again to reign with Jesus during the millenium, which will be a thousand years of peace on this earth.

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.




The only ones left to be resurrected after the first resurrection are the unjust.They have to be resurrected to be judged on the great judgment day with the good and the bad. The good will not be judged to a second death, because they will live with Christ forever when the new heaven and the new earth is formed, as explained in Rev 21.



I'm still not understanding where scripture tells us "The Church" gets pulled out before anyone else.....

:confused

Also, How can this be correct?: "the only ones left to be resurrected after the first resurrection are the unjust.They have to be resurrected to be judged on the great judgment day with the good and the bad."

Jesus didn't say,"a time is coming when the BAD will come out of the grave to be judged..." He said ALL will come out, some to eternal life (saved people...) and some to be eternally condemned (unsaved).

How much more clear could he be?
The answer: (in Spinal-Tap style) NONE more clear. ;)

Moving on:
How does the whole "1000 year Earthly reign" scenario work?

Problems that arise with this include:
No Biblical evidence to support a "Rapture of ONLY the Church".
A 3rd temple? - What for? - & When?
Why would God bring us back to Earth for a literal 1000 years, in our GLORIFIED bodies, with the curse of sin and sinners still lingering around?

Let me explain the biggest problem(s) with the "3rd temple theory" as a starting point.
Is the 3rd temple built before the 1000 year reign? I've always heard "YES", .... "and the "Antichrist" also commits the abomination of desolation in this temple".
So, the 3rd temple is built, and becomes "unclean" & left desolate.... which makes me wonder....
....Which temple is JESUS supposed to reign in for 1000 years????? Because historical precedence shows us that, a HOLY GOD will not dwell in a temple that's been desecrated. And Jesus would not reign / dwell in the very same temple where an unholy man committed abominations....

.... So if Jesus is going to dwell in a temple on Earth for 1000 years, there's gonna have to be a FOURTH temple built.

Can the 3rd temple theory REALLY be explained with scripture??

:confused :o :hmm:

markdrums
Mar 10th 2008, 03:20 PM
I believe that the those who are believers will be raptured before the tribulation.

I would be considered pre-trib.

I interpret the Bible literally and I believe that the church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.

I believe this position for the following reasons:

The church is a mystery: Ephesians 3:1-6 and Colossians 1;25-27. It was not revealed in the O.T. therefore could not be in any of the O.T. prophecy since the church did not have its existence until after Acts 2.

so the church could not be in the first 69 weeks of of Daniel's prophecy.

Since every passage dealing with the tribulation relates it to God's program for Israel, it is logical to state that the church will not be in the tribulation. Those that emerge from the tribulation are totally distinct from the Christians or the Church.

The word for 'dwell' in Revelation 3:10 refers to earth dwellers those who have identified themselves with the earth's commerce and religion. The judgment is directed towards the earth dwellers of the day not Christians.


I believe that before the Antichrist can be revealed the Holy Spirit must be removed. Because the Holy Spirit indwells believers we must be removed.

God's dealings are with Israel in the 70th week.

We can't be at the marriage feast of the Lamb if we are down on earth.

:)

You say you interpret the Bible "Literally".... so I have a couple questions for you. ;)

Maybe you can explain how the word "literally" is interpreted. Because to me, it seems as though it's not truly "literal" but more of a "selective" literal interpretation.


If the "1000 reign" is supposed to be taken literally as a "millennium", then why isn't "70 weeks / 490 years" taken literally? How does 490 years turn into 2490 years?

By the way, Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy had nothing to do with "end Times"... it was to let the Jews know there would be Seventy Sevens (70 weeks /490) from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the birth & crucifixion (being cut-off) of Messiah. Jesus WAS "cut-off" in the midst of the 70th week... just a prophesied.
He brought an end to the "Old Covenant and sacrifices" and brought in the "NEW Covenant". He was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant.

How do we ignore the fact that the Bible LITERALLY says, we are no longer Jew nor Greek. (meaning there's no distinction based on race.)

Romans chaper 9 makes it clear that there's no distinction of israel by "race" or "birthland"....

Rom 9:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=6&version=kjv#6)¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=7&version=kjv#7)Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Also,
How can words like "soon, near, at hand, etc." literally be taken as thousands of years later?

When Jesus told his disciples THEY would see these things fullfilled in THEIR generation, & some of THEM standing there (at the time of Jesus speaking) were told they "would not taste death before these things would be fulfilled".......
......wouldn't Jesus LITERALLY mean THEM standing there?

By Reading these things LITERALLY, I get a completely different interpretation than those who "interpret the Bible literally"....

Why is that?

John146
Mar 10th 2008, 08:49 PM
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, WATCH.

Luke 21:34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36BE ALWAYS ON THE WATCH, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Luke 14:28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave.

None of those passages teach a pre-trib rapture. What was Jesus speaking about in those passages? Look at Mark 13. What was He speaking about when He said that they "know not when the time is"? The time of His return, right?

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. - Mark 13:24-27

This says that He returns "in those days, AFTER that tribulation". So, Mark 13:32-37 definitely has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. The Luke 21 passage says nothing about being taken out of the world. The context of Luke 21 is once again the second coming of Christ. We see that the elect are not gathered until AFTER the tribulation.



Amen. I certainly don't expect to be around to share in the unbelievable wrath like the world has never known . God removed his saints before from his oncoming wrath. Look at what he did for Noah and his family and for Lot and his family.Yes, He removed them from His wrath on the very same day that His wrath came down.

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Luke 17:26-30

So, it's reasonable to believe that we are all caught up with Christ and then God's final wrath comes down immediately following. In that way, it truly would be as in the days of Noah and in the days of Lot. But I do not find that this theory of a pre-trib "coming of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15) and rapture followed by a 7-year tribulation followed by a third coming of the Lord is taught anywhere in Scripture.

We can see in 2 Thess 1:7-10 that both events (rapture and God's wrath) happen at the same general time.

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. - 2 Thess 1:7-10

John146
Mar 10th 2008, 09:00 PM
Right, The Rapture IS the day of final judgment.
In John 5 it speaks of ALL in the grave will rise, some to eternal life, & some to eternal condemnation.

Also re-read Matthew 13:36 - 43 It's not about separating the "good" in church from the "bad" in church. It's separating the evil in the WORLD from the righteous in the world. If Good AND bad are Harvested at the same time, how is this different from John chapter 5?

36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#)He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=10#) Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Being gathered /taken / raptured is all on the same day as the judgment.

I agree. It couldn't be more clear, yet people don't want to see it. Believers (children of the kingdom) and unbelievers (children of the wicked one) are TOGETHER until the harvest, which occurs at the end of this temporal age when Jesus returns. It's clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead, both believers and unbelievers that occurs at the same time. No one is taken out of the world until then.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. - Matt 13:27-30

Look at this. The angels inquire whether they should gather up the tares first. And Jesus says, "No, let both grow together until the harvest". At that time, the tares are gathered to be burned and the wheat are gathered into Christ's kingdom. That is what happens on the day of judgment. Pre-trib says the wheat are gathered first seven years before Christ returns and then the tares are not gathered until the day of judgment a thousand plus years later. All of that directly contradicts what Jesus taught in Matthew 13.

divaD
Mar 10th 2008, 09:29 PM
So, it's reasonable to believe that we are all caught up with Christ and then God's final wrath comes down immediately
following. In that way, it truly would be as in the days of Noah and in the days of Lot. But I do not find that this theory of a
pre-trib "coming of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15) and rapture followed by a 7-year tribulation followed by a third coming of the
Lord is taught anywhere in Scripture.








Exactly! The pre-trib view, and being like in the days of Noah, never coincide with each other.

As you had just stated "So, it's reasonable to believe that we are all caught up with Christ and then God's final wrath comes down immediately
following. In that way, it truly would be as in the days of Noah and in the days of Lot.", this doesn't line up with the pre-trib view. What are the differences?

Noah's flood: Noah and his family were saved first. Then the wrath of God happens to the ungodly.

Pre-trib view: Believers are saved first. Then a tribulation period. After the trib, the wrath of God poured out on the ungodly.

So, where is this tribulation period during Noah's flood? It went straight from the saving of Noah and his family, to the wrath of God. No tribulation anywhere in there. What that tells me, the great trib will be satan's wrath, not God's. And since it will be satan's wrath, who will satan unleash this wrath on, if everyone is raptured out pre-trib?


Post-trib view: After the trib, the believers are saved first. Then the wrath of God is poured out on the ungodly.


Clearly to me, the post-trib view coincides with as in Noah's day, more than the pre-trib view.

HisGrace
Mar 10th 2008, 09:58 PM
None of those passages teach a pre-trib rapture. What was Jesus speaking about in those passages? Look at Mark 13. What was He speaking about when He said that they "know not when the time is"? The time of His return, right? I am not going to continue to argue about Mark 13 and Luke 21, because it is sometimes difficult to sort out scriptures that speak about the Rapture and Jesus' Second Coming, but all I know is that like, Noah and Lot, God has not appointed his saints to endure terrible wrath which is to come. The tribulation will be the worst carnage this earth has ever known.

1 Thess. 1:10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess. 4: 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


In the above scripture Jesus feet don't touch the ground but, in his Second Coming he remains on earth. Some like to say that the rapture and the second coming occur at the same time. How can we go into the clouds to be with Jesus forever, and then he changes his mind, and we all turn around and all come back on the same day?

I heaven he will prepare us to be his bride to come back for the Second Coming, still fulfilling his promiise to be with him forever.


1 Cor. 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


This scripture speaks about the ' last trump', but with Jesus' Second coming there is nothing about a last trump.

There will be voices from heaven singing Hallelujah!!!
Rev.19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

HisGrace
Mar 10th 2008, 10:07 PM
Yes, He removed them from His wrath on the very same day that His wrath came down.
So, it's reasonable to believe that we are all caught up with Christ and then God's final wrath comes down immediately following. In that way, it truly would be as in the days of Noah and in the days of Lot. :confused:confused I'm confued. Sounds like the Rapture to me. That is what the pre-tribbers are saying??? We say that the tribulation starts immediately after the Rapture.

divaD
Mar 10th 2008, 10:23 PM
In the above scripture Jesus feet don't touch the ground but, in his Second Coming he remains on earth. Some like to say that
the rapture and the second coming occur at the same time. How can we go into the clouds to be with Jesus forever, and then
he changes his mind, and we all turn around and all come back on the same day?

I heaven he will prepare us to be his bride to come back for the Second Coming, still fulfilling his promiise to be with him
forever.


Of course for you theory to hold up, you must be able to explain Revelation 14:1.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Revelation 14:1 would obviously occur after a presumed pre-trib rapture, yet we only see an hundred forty and four thousand with the Lord. So, where is everyone else at, if they're to be with Him forever, after they were raptured pre-trib?

HisGrace
Mar 10th 2008, 10:35 PM
I'm still not understanding where scripture tells us "The Church" gets pulled out before anyone else..... Hope some more answers are sorted out in my last post.



Also, How can this be correct?: "the only ones left to be resurrected after the first resurrection are the unjust.They have to be resurrected to be judged on the great judgment day with the good and the bad."

Jesus didn't say,"a time is coming when the BAD will come out of the grave to be judged..." He said ALL will come out, some to eternal life (saved people...) and some to be eternally condemned (unsaved).

Everyone has been brought back from heaven with Jesus' Second Coming and the martyrs that died during the tribulation, are resurrected. The scriptures say, blessed are those who share in rhe first resurrection, so who is left for the second resurrection - the unjust.

Rev. 20:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Moving on:
How does the whole "1000 year Earthly reign" scenario work? Jesus will reign in peace for a thousand years.


Problems that arise with this include:
No Biblical evidence to support a "Rapture of ONLY the Church".
A 3rd temple? - What for? - & When?
Why would God bring us back to Earth for a literal 1000 years, in our [B]GLORIFIED bodies, with the curse of sin and sinners still lingering around?

Let me explain the biggest problem(s) with the "3rd temple theory" as a starting point.
Is the 3rd temple built before the 1000 year reign? I've always heard "YES", .... "and the "Antichrist" also commits the abomination of desolation in this temple".
So, the 3rd temple is built, and becomes "unclean" & left desolate.... which makes me wonder....
....Which temple is JESUS supposed to reign in for 1000 years????? Because historical precedence shows us that, a HOLY GOD will not dwell in a temple that's been desecrated. And Jesus would not reign / dwell in the very same temple where an unholy man committed abominations....

.... So if Jesus is going to dwell in a temple on Earth for 1000 years, there's gonna have to be a FOURTH temple built.

Can the 3rd temple theory REALLY be explained with scripture??

:confused :o :hmm: I don't know anything about this fourth temple. Where does it say that in the scriptures?

Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

markdrums
Mar 10th 2008, 11:07 PM
Hope some more answers are sorted out in my last post.




Everyone has been brought back from heaven with Jesus' Second Coming and the martyrs that died during the tribulation, are resurrected. The scriptures say, blessed are those who share in rhe first resurrection, so who is left for the second resurrection - the unjust.

Rev. 20:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus will reign in peace for a thousand years.

I don't know anything about this fourth temple. Where does it say that in the scriptures?

Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.


Exactly exactly exactly....
(concerning the temple that is...)

Where does scripture speak of a 4th temple? It doesn't.
Where does it speak of a 3rd temple? It doesnt. The 3rd temple theology comes from bad theology/bad eschatology... and largely from Tim Lahaye style interpretation of scripture.

Rev 21:22 (as you even pointed out) tells us THERE IS NO TEMPLE.

Concerning the resurrection: If Jesus said "a time is coming when ALL will come out of the graves, SOME to eternal life & SOME to eternal condemnation..." how is your interpretation of "Only the unjust" being resurrected consistent? Jesus explains BOTH will be called together.
The Wheat & Tares parable explains the same thing.

Where does the scripture say, "Jesus will reign in Peace for 1000 years"?
AND, how can there be "peace" if the problem & curse of SIN has not yet been fully resolved?

How do we (as glorified beings) exist in a perfect place, where there is no more sin, or dying, or sickness, or mourning.... if sin is still present?

And WHY would there be a need for a 3rd temple?
And if there WERE a need for a 3rd temple, why would Jesus reign from a temple made UNHOLY by "the antichrist"?
The first 2 temples were left desolate & destroyed because of the abominations.... God NEVER returned to enter either of them again.

So... which temple is Jesus supposed to reign from?

:confused

HisGrace
Mar 11th 2008, 01:18 AM
Exactly exactly exactly....
(concerning the temple that is...)

Where does scripture speak of a 4th temple? It doesn't.
Where does it speak of a 3rd temple? It doesnt. The 3rd temple theology comes from bad theology/bad eschatology... and largely from Tim Lahaye style interpretation of scripture.

Rev 21:22 (as you even pointed out) tells us THERE IS NO TEMPLE.
How come you are giving me flack about temples? I didn't bring up the subject and am going by Rev. 21;22. The only other mention of a temple in Revelation is in heaven.


Concerning the resurrection: If Jesus said "a time is coming when ALL will come out of the graves, SOME to eternal life & SOME to eternal condemnation..." how is your interpretation of "Only the unjust" being resurrected consistent? Jesus explains BOTH will be called together.
The Wheat & Tares parable explains the same thing. I did say ealier that everyone will be judged on the great judgment day. The tares probably were rooted out at the Rapture, meaning those souls would be left behind.


Where does the scripture say, "Jesus will reign in Peace for 1000 years"?
AND, how can there be "peace" if the problem & curse of SIN has not yet been fully resolved?
How do we (as glorified beings) exist in a perfect place, where there is no more sin, or dying, or sickness, or mourning.... if sin is still present?

I am going by the scriptures. If the Battle of Armageddon is won, Jesus comes and Babylon has fallen, and then satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit for 1000 years, change is inevitable.


Zech 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

Isaiah 35: 10 Those who have been ransomed by the Lord will return. They will enter Jerusalem[a] singing, crowned with everlasting joy.Sorrow and mourning will disappear, and they will be filled with joy and gladness.

Isiah 61: 12 They will be called “The Holy People” and “The People Redeemed by the Lord.” And Jerusalem will be known as “The Desirable Place”
and “The City No Longer Forsaken.”

Revelation 20 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

markdrums
Mar 11th 2008, 02:19 AM
How come you are giving me flack about temples? I didn't bring up the subject and am going by Rev. 21;22. The only other mention of a temple in Revelation is in heaven.

I did say ealier that everyone will be judged on the great judgment day. The tares probably were rooted out at the Rapture, meaning those souls would be left behind.



I am going by the scriptures. If the Battle of Armageddon is won, Jesus comes and Babylon has fallen, and then satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit for 1000 years, change is inevitable.


Zech 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

Isaiah 35: 10 Those who have been ransomed by the Lord will return. They will enter Jerusalem[a] singing, crowned with everlasting joy.Sorrow and mourning will disappear, and they will be filled with joy and gladness.

Isiah 61: 12 They will be called “The Holy People” and “The People Redeemed by the Lord.” And Jerusalem will be known as “The Desirable Place”
and “The City No Longer Forsaken.”

Revelation 20 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I understand 20:4 says "Those who were beheaded lived & reigned with Jesus for a thousand years."
But how does this get translated into a "physical, literal millennium, with a temple & re-instituted animal sacrifices"? (Besides, a 3rd temple makes a much sense as a 4th temple.... which is none...)

I know you haven't gone that far into the subject with your post, but every time someone mentions a "1000 year reign" it inevitably ends up in that context. I'm just still trying to figure out where this is backed up in scripture.

The 1000 years in Revelation refer to Jesus reigning in his SPIRITUAL kingdom currently. The number 1000 is used to described an "unspecified" or "unnumerable" amount... whether it be time, or people, or things. It's symbolic, rather than literal in it's meaning.
Examples:

"God owns the cattle on 1000 hills" (Psalms 50:10)
"God keeps his covenant to 1000 generations" (Deu 7:9)
"God increased the number of Israelites 1000 times" (Deu 1:11)

We know God own ALL the cattle on EVERY hill; He keeps his covenant to ALL generations, to a infinite number (etc.) so the number 1000 is hyberbole, used to emphasise a point.

Satan's "power" was also bound & limited after the crucifixion & resurrection. Jesus conquered Sin & Death. The 1000 years is now...
or, perhaps we're seeing Satan Loosed....?
I'll toss that point out for discussion .... because of the rapidly increasing number of new, false religions on a worldwide scale within the last few decades. Combine that with the age of communication, & you can share your "NEW RELIGION" with the entire world with the click of a mouse.

I also don't understand how the "Selective Harvest" (paraphrasing) gets it's foundation in scripture.
The wheat & the tares are all gathered in one event, which is the day ALL will come out of the grave, (aka the rapture) and ALL are found either righteous, or judged accordingly.

I do apologize for giving you too hard a time over the temple issue... ;)

Like I said, that seems to always lead down the next road.... LOL!

While I may disagree with the chronological order of events that some people have, I do agree that it's completely feasable that Jesus could return tomorrow... or next week.... or even before I go to bed tonight....
OR.... several thousand years from now....
But I believe it's closer than that. Especially with the Apostacy we see regularly nowadays, & again, the influx of "new religions" on almost a daily basis.
The Bible has always given us examples & parallels of events to learn from, along with Jesus' warnings.
What I love most about talking to my fellow brothers & sisters in Christ is knowing we're all paying attention, & won't be "caught by surprise".

:) :hug:

Diggindeeper
Mar 11th 2008, 05:39 AM
How come you are giving me flack about temples? I didn't bring up the subject and am going by Rev. 21;22. The only other mention of a temple in Revelation is in heaven.

I did say ealier that everyone will be judged on the great judgment day. The tares probably were rooted out at the Rapture, meaning those souls would be left behind.



I am going by the scriptures. If the Battle of Armageddon is won, Jesus comes and Babylon has fallen, and then satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit for 1000 years, change is inevitable.


Zech 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

Isaiah 35: 10 Those who have been ransomed by the Lord will return. They will enter Jerusalem[a] singing, crowned with everlasting joy.Sorrow and mourning will disappear, and they will be filled with joy and gladness.

Isiah 61: 12 They will be called “The Holy People” and “The People Redeemed by the Lord.” And Jerusalem will be known as “The Desirable Place”
and “The City No Longer Forsaken.”

Revelation 20 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Concerning this part of the quote above, which I have bolded...
Zech 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

This, from Zech. 14, has already happened...at his FIRST coming! His feet DID stand on the Mount of Olives. Several times his feet touched down on the Mount of Olives! It was there that he prayed so fervently and so earnestly that his sweat dropped off like great drops of blood! For he prayed, "FATHER, IF IT BE THY WILL, LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME! Nevertheless, not my will, but YOURS be done, Father." In great agony he prayed this on the Mount of Olives, for his heart was filled with sorrow.

More than once, it was recorded how he went to the Mount of Olives. His feet touched there each and every time. As did his knees, and he sat there also. He abode (practically lived there!) there a lot!

Here are some examples of him going there:

Mt 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mt 26:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Mk 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples,

Mk 13:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Mk 14:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Lk 19:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,

Lk 19:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

Lk 21:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

Lk 22:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.

Jn 8:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.



Then, here's what happened just after his final visit to the Mount of Olives!

- they bound him, led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

- he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

- But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

- The multitude cried out more, saying, Let him be crucified!

- Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children!

- when he (Pilate) had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

- And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

- they platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him

- And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.

- And after they mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him

- They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall

- And they crucified him,

- and parted his garments, casting lots

- And sitting down...they watched him there

- they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads

- chief priests mocked him, with the scribes and elders

- And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. (Jesus was dying, and they gave him pure, strong VINEGAR, to drink. Not even a sip of water! Just straight vinegar. How sad.)

- The rest said, Let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

- Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

- And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



...and the remainder of Zech. 14:4 was fulfilled, with that earthquake!

Add to this the fact that no rapture will happen until--UNTIL--the dead in Christ are raised FIRST! This will all occur at the last day, the only time Jesus will return! This return is his ONLY second coming.

There is no secret coming first.

He will return. We can count on that. He WILL return, but only once!

And not in phases. At his return, the dead will rise, we who are alive and remain will be caught up to be with him, and the wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of his coming.

...and thus shall we ever be with the Lord!:pp

DeafPosttrib
Mar 11th 2008, 06:13 AM
Diggindeeper,

You are correct.

I am sure that some of them would accuse people who interpreting Zechariah 14 was already fulfilled, as they are label, 'preterists'. But, they are not.

I am not either partial or full preterial. I always believe second coming is a future event.

I agree with you, Dave Taylor, ShirleyFord, and many others saying that Zechariah 14 already fulled at first advent, for the purpose of Calvary.

Because, the book of Zechariah was written about 500 years before Calvary. The context of Zechariah chapter 14 seems focus on Messiah(Christ) and Calvary, it is not discuss about second advent nothing at all. Neither, it is speak of Armageddon either.

Diggindeeper is right, we have to looking in the New Testament like as in the four gospels did mentioned toward Zechariah 14, these are already fulfilled.

Same with Daniel 9:24-27, that passage is not talking about Antichrist and "sign 'Peace Treaty' with Israel". It focus on Messiah and calvary. He already ended daily sacrifices as he destroyed them at Calvary. Now, he is our sacrifice, he fulfilled it through his blood.

That why, we have to be careful with prophecies of O.T. to be determine which one is speak of first advent or second advent.

Often, dispensationalists interpreting verses of O.T. are speak of second advent and supposed future seven year of Tribulation Period. But, many of them are focus on Messiah and Calvary are already fulfilled at first advent.

for me, I believe Zechariah chapter 14 is already fulfilled at Calvary, as what in the N.T.(the four gospels) declared. The only way that we can understand Bible, by allow New Testament intepreting Old Testament. If suppose without have New Testament, how shall we able to understand O.T. prophecies? That why, Christ came to earth, to fulfilled O.T. prophecies, so, we can understand God's plan.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

skc53
Mar 11th 2008, 11:00 AM
Yes, there is a rapture,:pp although the word rapture isn't in the Bible, instead it reads, "caught up". Read 1 Thess. chapter 4. Our pastor is doing a study on this very subject.

Firstfruits
Mar 11th 2008, 12:18 PM
Hope some more answers are sorted out in my last post.




Everyone has been brought back from heaven with Jesus' Second Coming and the martyrs that died during the tribulation, are resurrected. The scriptures say, blessed are those who share in rhe first resurrection, so who is left for the second resurrection - the unjust.

Rev. 20:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus will reign in peace for a thousand years.

I don't know anything about this fourth temple. Where does it say that in the scriptures?

Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

With regards to the following, when would those that come with Jesus have been taken to be with him in order to come back with him?

"Everyone has been brought back from heaven with Jesus' Second Coming and the martyrs that died during the tribulation, are resurrected. The scriptures say, blessed are those who share in rhe first resurrection, so who is left for the second resurrection - the unjust."

As far as what is written the martyrs that died during the tribulation are the ones in the first resurrection.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

divaD
Mar 11th 2008, 02:21 PM
I am sure that some of them would accuse people who interpreting Zechariah 14 was already fulfilled, as they are label,
'preterists'. But, they are not.

I am not either partial or full preterial. I always believe second coming is a future event.

I agree with you, Dave Taylor, ShirleyFord, and many others saying that Zechariah 14 already fulled at first advent, for the
purpose of Calvary.



Honestly, I'm not sure how anyone can interpret Zech 14 as being fullfilled at Calvary.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


This verse shows that the Lord is in battle mode. Please explain how He was in battle mode at Calvary, or even at anytime during His first coming.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.



Notice what happens next.


Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.



Why are they fleeing? Because the Lord is in battle mode.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


Please explain when this had come to pass. How can there be one Lord, , and his name one, and He be the king over all the earth, when satan hasn't even been bound yet?


Also, you claim not to be preterist, but how can you not be preterist, when you claim Zech 14 has already been fullfilled?
That doesn't add up to me. This doesn't mean that I'm labeling you pretersist. I'm just trying to understand, that's all. Also, don't most preterists generally agree that the Lord's second coming is future? If so, I don't understand your above point in regards to that.

HisGrace
Mar 11th 2008, 04:30 PM
The 1000 years in Revelation refer to Jesus reigning in his SPIRITUAL kingdom currently. The number 1000 is used to described an "unspecified" or "unnumerable" amount... whether it be time, or people, or things. It's symbolic, rather than literal in it's meaning.

I believe what I read in the Bible and don't dry to dissect and anaylze every word in the scriptures. It is too exhausting and besides it draws me away from God's Spirit.

In Rev. 20 Jesus has already come in the Second Coming and Satan has been bound with chains and thrown into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, so common sense tells us that when Jesus is in control he is well able to reign with peace for those thousand years.

Again -Isaiah 35:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Zech 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

This, from Zech. 14, has already happened...at his FIRST coming! His feet DID stand on the Mount of Olives. Several times his feet touched down on the Mount of Olives!
multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Certainly Jesus had been to the Mount of Olives many times when he walked on this earth, but the Mount of Olives is also where his feet will first touch the ground with his Second Coming.



As far as what is written the martyrs that died during the tribulation are the ones in the first resurrection.
That's what I have been saying.

Firstfruits
Mar 11th 2008, 04:46 PM
I believe what I read in the Bible and don't dry to dissect and anaylze every word in the scriptures. It is too exhausting and besides it draws me away from God's Spirit.

In Rev. 20 Jesus has already come in the Second Coming and Satan has been bound with chains and thrown into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, so common sense tells us that when Jesus is in control he is well able to reign with peace for those thousand years.

Again -Isaiah 35:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Certainly Jesus had been to the Mount of Olives many times when he walked on this earth, but the Mount of Olives is also where his feet will first touch the ground with his Second Coming.



That's what I have been saying.

It is right that Jesus comes in Revelation 20, but from what is written when Jesus comes it will be judgment, and he also come and destroys Satan, and he does that after the thousand years are complete, otherwise he would come twice, once for the tribulation saints and again for the final battle.

"In Rev. 20 Jesus has already come in the Second Coming and Satan has been bound with chains and thrown into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, so common sense tells us that when Jesus is in control he is well able to reign with peace for those thousand years."

Rev 20:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It is at this time that Jerusalem shall be compassed about.

Rev 20:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

HisGrace
Mar 11th 2008, 05:15 PM
It is right that Jesus comes in Revelation 20, but from what is written when Jesus comes it will be judgment, and he also come and destroys Satan, and he does that after the thousand years are complete, otherwise he would come twice, once for the tribulation saints and again for the final battle. Yes, when Jesus comes to end the tribulation he stays for the thousand years, while Satan is bound and in the bottomless pit. Jesus will still be around when the devil is finally loosed and he is doomed to his final judgment in the lake of fire.



Rev 20:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It is at this time that Jerusalem shall be compassed about. I agree.

markdrums
Mar 11th 2008, 05:23 PM
I believe what I read in the Bible and don't dry to dissect and anaylze every word in the scriptures. It is too exhausting and besides it draws me away from God's Spirit.

In Rev. 20 Jesus has already come in the Second Coming and Satan has been bound with chains and thrown into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, so common sense tells us that when Jesus is in control he is well able to reign with peace for those thousand years.

Again -Isaiah 35:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Certainly Jesus had been to the Mount of Olives many times when he walked on this earth, but the Mount of Olives is also where his feet will first touch the ground with his Second Coming.



That's what I have been saying.


I definitely understand what you're saying. :)

The one thing I'll add is, concerning the 1000 years & the kingdom...
I interpret this as current, and as a "spiritual kingdom" rather than an Earthly, physical, future kingdom.
Reason being: John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
After his crucifixion & resurrection, he ascended to his kingdom... which, as stated above, is not of this world.

Also, at his resurrection: MAT 27:50-54
50 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#)And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#)Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#) and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#)So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

So the saints were resurrected as well, & are reigning with him now....in his kingdom.

Personally, as far as prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled, I don't think there are very many left. I believe we're waiting for the command from Jesus, where everyone is called up, (the rapture / Harvest / last day) -The final end of sin & death, -& the newly created Heaven & Earth, where we'll all dwell with our LORD for eternity.

Anyway, I really do enjoy "talking" with others about their views, because I know there's always something we can learn.
:)

God Bless!!

HisGrace
Mar 11th 2008, 06:05 PM
I definitely understand what you're saying. :)

The one thing I'll add is, concerning the 1000 years & the kingdom...
I interpret this as current, and as a "spiritual kingdom" rather than an Earthly, physical, future kingdom.
Reason being: John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
After his crucifixion & resurrection, he ascended to his kingdom... which, as stated above, is not of this world. When Jesus comes in his Second Coming, bringing the saints from heaven with him, he will stay here. After the judgment there will be a new heaven and a new earth formed .

Rev. 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”

Rev. 21:10 So he took me in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and he showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God and sparkled like a precious stone—like jasper as clear as crystal. 12 The city wall was broad and high, with twelve gates guarded by twelve angels. And the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were written on the gates. 13 There were three gates on each side—east, north, south, and west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The angel who talked to me held in his hand a gold measuring stick to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 When he measured it, he found it was a square, as wide as it was long. In fact, its length and width and height were each 1,400 miles. 17 Then he measured the walls and found them to be 216 feet thick (according to the human standard used by the angel).

18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city was pure gold, as clear as glass. 19 The wall of the city was built on foundation stones inlaid with twelve precious stones:the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.

21 The twelve gates were made of pearls! And the main street was pure gold, as clear as glass.22 I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon, for the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its light. 24 The nations will walk in its light, and the kings of the world will enter the city in all their glory. 25 Its gates will never be closed at the end of day because there is no night there. 26 And all the nations will bring their glory and honor into the city. 27 Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Firstfruits
Mar 11th 2008, 07:34 PM
I definitely understand what you're saying. :)

The one thing I'll add is, concerning the 1000 years & the kingdom...
I interpret this as current, and as a "spiritual kingdom" rather than an Earthly, physical, future kingdom.
Reason being: John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
After his crucifixion & resurrection, he ascended to his kingdom... which, as stated above, is not of this world.

Also, at his resurrection: MAT 27:50-54
50 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#)And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#)Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#) and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&translation=nkjvp&x=8&y=7#)So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

So the saints were resurrected as well, & are reigning with him now....in his kingdom.

Personally, as far as prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled, I don't think there are very many left. I believe we're waiting for the command from Jesus, where everyone is called up, (the rapture / Harvest / last day) -The final end of sin & death, -& the newly created Heaven & Earth, where we'll all dwell with our LORD for eternity.

Anyway, I really do enjoy "talking" with others about their views, because I know there's always something we can learn.
:)

God Bless!!

Where may I ask does the following fit in since it will not be the last day?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Again this is not the last day.