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Vivi
Feb 14th 2008, 08:06 AM
I while back ago I visited a penicostal school and at one of their meeting I heard them speaking in tongues. Some say people today people can still do it just like they did in the New Testiment others say it no longer exists and when somebody speaks in tongues now days it is of satan. So which one do you guys think it is?

JMN
Feb 14th 2008, 09:34 AM
I speak in tongues and I promise u that its not from satan. :saint:

cchandrus
Feb 14th 2008, 11:25 AM
I speak in tongues for the Glory of God.
The Holy Spirit is not only the Giver, but the Maintainer of all life in the soul.

godsgirl
Feb 14th 2008, 12:36 PM
Yep! The gift of tongues exists today. No doubt about it.

Slug1
Feb 14th 2008, 01:13 PM
After many years of doubt about this gift, God moved me to a church that has opened my eyes. Yes, the gift is active today.

Whispering Grace
Feb 14th 2008, 01:19 PM
After many years of doubt about this gift, God moved me to a church that has opened my eyes. Yes, the gift is active today.

Praise God for that!

ProjectPeter
Feb 14th 2008, 01:33 PM
Praise God for that!
Those crazy Pentecostals! ;)

ProjectPeter
Feb 14th 2008, 02:53 PM
Let me be the black sheep of the family here. It still exists. But it isn't from God. We all know Satan comes as an angel of light. So he will be more than happy to give people signs and wonders that look holy but are not.

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

People say tongues is further revelation from God. Rather to expound on a verse or whatever. But God says clearly that we are not to add to His word the bible.

Rev 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
What people say that tongues is "further revelation from God?" Been Pentecostal all my life and I've never heard any such thing as that taught.

Sold Out
Feb 14th 2008, 03:04 PM
I while back ago I visited a penicostal school and at one of their meeting I heard them speaking in tongues. Some say people today people can still do it just like they did in the New Testiment others say it no longer exists and when somebody speaks in tongues now days it is of satan. So which one do you guys think it is?

I say don't fight or argue about it. It's not a heaven or hell issue.

If you want to know more, do your own study of it in the bible. There are many people on this forum that do speak in tongues, and many who don't. You will get many different responses. When in doubt - go back to the Book (bible)!

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 04:04 PM
Let me be the black sheep of the family here. It still exists. But it isn't from God. We all know Satan comes as an angel of light. So he will be more than happy to give people signs and wonders that look holy but are not.

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

People say tongues is further revelation from God. Rather to expound on a verse or whatever. But God says clearly that we are not to add to His word the bible.

Rev 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

At what point did Tongues cease to be of God, and now all we have is the counterfeit?

And the quote in revelations - is in regards to the book of revelations - not the entire scripture. Not that I am saying it is ok to add to any part of the bible, just wanted to point out you are using the verse far out of context by applying it to the entire scripture.

Be Blessed!

ProjectPeter
Feb 14th 2008, 04:26 PM
At what point did Tongues cease to be of God, and now all we have is the counterfeit?

And the quote in revelations - is in regards to the book of revelations - not the entire scripture. Not that I am saying it is ok to add to any part of the bible, just wanted to point out you are using the verse far out of context by applying it to the entire scripture.

Be Blessed!
Context? Who uses that any longer? :lol:

Sold Out
Feb 14th 2008, 04:26 PM
At what point did Tongues cease to be of God, and now all we have is the counterfeit?

And the quote in revelations - is in regards to the book of revelations - not the entire scripture. Not that I am saying it is ok to add to any part of the bible, just wanted to point out you are using the verse far out of context by applying it to the entire scripture.

Be Blessed!

Guys, let's don't argue about it. This has been argued to death....the horse is dead!

Let there be liberty in the non-essentials and unity in the essentials. Reach folks for Christ and we will all do well.

Firstfruits
Feb 14th 2008, 04:34 PM
Let me be the black sheep of the family here. It still exists. But it isn't from God. We all know Satan comes as an angel of light. So he will be more than happy to give people signs and wonders that look holy but are not.

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

People say tongues is further revelation from God. Rather to expound on a verse or whatever. But God says clearly that we are not to add to His word the bible.

Rev 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

1 Cor 14:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Cor 12:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

When did God decide not to give to some the gift of tongues?

grit
Feb 14th 2008, 05:36 PM
Some say people today... can still do it just like they did in the New Testiment others say it no longer exists and when somebody speaks in tongues now days it is of satan. So which one do you guys think it is?
Not meaning to step on anyone's toes, I think it's both and neither.

I am of one of those Reformed traditions who have responsively taken a very strong cessasionalist position against modern tongues-speaking (glossolalia & xenoglossy) as being extraordinary to God's plans. This position was mostly reactive to Pentecostalism of the early 1900s and became somewhat entrenched in the 1960s-70s when the Charismatic Movement's renewed interest in supernatural "gifts of the Spirit" began to strongly influence traditional mainstream churches after Pentecostalism came into its own as mainstrean Christian denominaions.

Even though I've always been supportive of the theological and historical foundations of a cessationist understanding regarding the original New Testament and Old Testament purposes served by gifts of such supernatural import and evidential display, and that their practice has completed God's purposed use in primary aspect - that is, God's primary purpose of the miraculous gifts as an initial supernatural sign of approved sanction (which certifiably waned after the Apostles and 1st generation of Christians had seen the establishment of the Christian Church), and even though other continuing gifts like teaching and prophesy can be similarly misused, deceptively pretended, and purposefully engaged for satanic intent; I never bought into the whole dogmatic proclamation that speaking in tongues was exclusively deamonic and contrary to the will and Word of God.

Sure, I've seen it used or pretended in either non-Biblical fashion or non-Biblical disorderliness, and subject to other human frailties such as pride, fear, and selfish ambition, but I also know many a sincere and humble Christian who claims a possession and relevance of the gift, and I've seen it used according to Biblical standards and guidelines on a few occassions.

My main concerns regarding glossolalia specifically, are the same concerns and dangers made much of in the New Testament accounts, particularly at the church in Corinth, where their misuse was contributory to pride, disorder, and division within the church.

Speaking in tongues was never an important element of Christ's earthly ministry, and, just as the raising of the dead was important as a dramatic and extraordinary signature of God's power at work in Jesus and certain Apostles, the clamour for such a sign is readily and repeatedly admonished by Jesus as antithetic to a desired exercise and value of faith in the life of a believer. That is, it's well and good to see the nailprints in Jesus' hands and feet, and to visibly see him risen from the dead, but he would much rather we trust and have belief on the merit of God's message in Scripture, without seeing. Even deamons tremble at the fact of God, knowing both His existence and authority, and yet such knowledge by evidentiary signs does not effect repentance, obedience, and a life honouring God.

Still, as one not exercising the gift, I do not discount the value that a genuine speaking in toungues may have in the life of a believer. I have Spanish-speaking friends I wish I could better communicate with in their own language, even though they speak my language of English. I'm sure that speaking in tongues, especially in a 'heavenly language' and 'prayer language' as many claim using the gift, gives both an assurance of familial ties and an aspect of heavenly citizenship.

cwb
Feb 14th 2008, 05:47 PM
Those crazy Pentecostals! ;)

It is not only Pentecostals who speak in tongues. I have met many Christians who don't belong to a Pentecostal church is speak in tongues.

Slug1
Feb 14th 2008, 05:51 PM
It is not only Pentecostals who speak in tongues. I have met many Christians who don't belong to a Pentecostal church is speak in tongues.
Considering the gifts are for the "Body of Christ" and not a denomination seems more would be edified as the Bible says is the purpose for the gifts if more would just allow the Holy Spirit to do His job and pass the gifts out to them.

Frances
Feb 14th 2008, 06:19 PM
Some say people today people can still do it just like they did in the New Testiment others say it no longer exists and when somebody speaks in tongues now days it is of satan. So which one do you guys think it is?

Well, if the Gift of tongues is from Satan I wonder why God takes the trouble to answer my prayers when they are in Tongues? and why as soon as I pray in Tongues any stress I may feel departs? and why, at those times, I'm always motivated to praise Almighty God? . . . .

I recommend you to ask God to fill you to overflowing with the Power of His Holy Spirit . . . :)

ps. I don't belong to a Pentecostal church - I'm just a very ordinary Christian . . .

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 06:23 PM
Just reading to see the train of thought in this thread, and I was wondering what ya'll think:

What was the purpose of speaking in tongues in the New Testament?

What is the purpose of speaking in tongues today?

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 06:44 PM
Just reading to see the train of thought in this thread, and I was wondering what ya'll think:

What was the purpose of speaking in tongues in the New Testament?

What is the purpose of speaking in tongues today?


I think there are 3 basic answers to the first question.

1 - For quickening the spread of the gospel - as in Acts 2.


2 - For self edification
1 Cor 4
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.


3 - As a sign to unbelievers.
1 Cor 14
21 In the law it is written:


“ With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&version=50#fen-NKJV-28694b)]
says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe



Honestly - I believe the same three apply today. I have not personally seen evidence of the first - but I have heard much evidence of it from others, and since scripture says it happened - I will not deny it can for sure.

I can assure you it IS self-edifying, and can with interpretation be edifying to the body.

As to it being a sign to unbelievers - I am not certain about that these days with the divisions that exist within the body.

Be Blessed!

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 07:19 PM
Thanks for your response!

On #1, why was the gift of tongue needed to spread the gospel? And why would it be needed today?

On #2 and #3, what problem was Paul addressing in the church in regard to the use of tongues?

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 07:34 PM
Thanks for your response!

On #1, why was the gift of tongue needed to spread the gospel? And why would it be needed today?

On #2 and #3, what problem was Paul addressing in the church in regard to the use of tongues?

1 - At Pentecost - the gift allowed people from a multitude of different languages to all hear the message in their own native tongue. This had both a practical application as well as a faith building one.

2 - Disorder I believe is the primary issue.

I have read many sources that claim the counterfeit of Gods gift of tongues was present in strong measure in the culture at Corinth - in the pagan worship. So he was in essence working to control the manifestations so that they would not resemble the pagans in any way + working against the counterfeit directly within the Church I believe.

Be Blessed!

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 07:36 PM
Have you ever been at a place where people were speaking in tongues, and no interpreter was present?

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 07:39 PM
Have you ever been at a place where people were speaking in tongues, and no interpreter was present?

Yes - from time to time.

Firstfruits
Feb 14th 2008, 07:58 PM
Not meaning to step on anyone's toes, I think it's both and neither.

I am of one of those Reformed traditions who have responsively taken a very strong cessasionalist position against modern tongues-speaking (glossolalia & xenoglossy) as being extraordinary to God's plans. This position was mostly reactive to Pentecostalism of the early 1900s and became somewhat entrenched in the 1960s-70s when the Charismatic Movement's renewed interest in supernatural "gifts of the Spirit" began to strongly influence traditional mainstream churches after Pentecostalism came into its own as mainstrean Christian denominaions.

Even though I've always been supportive of the theological and historical foundations of a cessationist understanding regarding the original New Testament and Old Testament purposes served by gifts of such supernatural import and evidential display, and that their practice has completed God's purposed use in primary aspect - that is, God's primary purpose of the miraculous gifts as an initial supernatural sign of approved sanction (which certifiably waned after the Apostles and 1st generation of Christians had seen the establishment of the Christian Church), and even though other continuing gifts like teaching and prophesy can be similarly misused, deceptively pretended, and purposefully engaged for satanic intent; I never bought into the whole dogmatic proclamation that speaking in tongues was exclusively deamonic and contrary to the will and Word of God.

Sure, I've seen it used or pretended in either non-Biblical fashion or non-Biblical disorderliness, and subject to other human frailties such as pride, fear, and selfish ambition, but I also know many a sincere and humble Christian who claims a possession and relevance of the gift, and I've seen it used according to Biblical standards and guidelines on a few occassions.

My main concerns regarding glossolalia specifically, are the same concerns and dangers made much of in the New Testament accounts, particularly at the church in Corinth, where their misuse was contributory to pride, disorder, and division within the church.

Speaking in tongues was never an important element of Christ's earthly ministry, and, just as the raising of the dead was important as a dramatic and extraordinary signature of God's power at work in Jesus and certain Apostles, the clamour for such a sign is readily and repeatedly admonished by Jesus as antithetic to a desired exercise and value of faith in the life of a believer. That is, it's well and good to see the nailprints in Jesus' hands and feet, and to visibly see him risen from the dead, but he would much rather we trust and have belief on the merit of God's message in Scripture, without seeing. Even deamons tremble at the fact of God, knowing both His existence and authority, and yet such knowledge by evidentiary signs does not effect repentance, obedience, and a life honouring God.

Still, as one not exercising the gift, I do not discount the value that a genuine speaking in toungues may have in the life of a believer. I have Spanish-speaking friends I wish I could better communicate with in their own language, even though they speak my language of English. I'm sure that speaking in tongues, especially in a 'heavenly language' and 'prayer language' as many claim using the gift, gives both an assurance of familial ties and an aspect of heavenly citizenship.

1 Cor 14:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Cor 12:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

According to scripture has God taken away the gift of tongues?

Sooner87
Feb 14th 2008, 08:00 PM
Have you ever been at a place where people were speaking in tongues, and no interpreter was present?

Yes, and Corinthians 14 talks about not doing this. I can't speak in tongues, nor can I interpret tongues. I FIRMLY believe it exists but is used very improperly by many Christians.

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 08:04 PM
Yes - from time to time.
What do you think about that? And what does the scripture say?

In your experience, what is the percentage of times there is an "interpretation" and "no interpretation?"

(I really appreciate you answering these questions.)

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 08:08 PM
Yes, and Corinthians 14 talks about not doing this. I can't speak in tongues, nor can I interpret tongues. I FIRMLY believe it exists but is used very improperly by many Christians.
It's my understanding of scriptures that "tongues" were real languages that could be understood. That was their use in spreading the gospel. At Pentecost, tongues were actual languages, not some unintelligible speech that some claim today.

The thing about tongues was that someone should be able to interpret ALWAYS. And they were real languages for the purpose of communicating the gospel, not just ecstatic utterances that appear to have no meaning to most people.

That's my understanding, anyway. God bless!

ImmenseDisciple
Feb 14th 2008, 08:21 PM
Is there a distinction to be made between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues, then? Praying in tongues in private obviously needs no interpreter...

Also - why would speaking in tongues be taken as "adding to the bible" any more or less than, say, prophetic dreams, or visions? Surely there's no debate that they're still commonplace and Spirit-born?

The main problem with speaking in tongues for me is that, depending on the circumstances it's done in, people may well get overexcited and unintentionally "fake" it. Someone spouting utter nonsense and leaving room for any interpretation brought forth (whatever the source of the interpretation) seems very dangerous indeed, imho.

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 08:31 PM
What do you think about that? And what does the scripture say?

In your experience, what is the percentage of times there is an "interpretation" and "no interpretation?"

(I really appreciate you answering these questions.)

It is inappropriate - just as Paul describes it. It turns a gift of God into a mockery of its intent in my humble opinion.

One of the first churches I ever went to that spoke in tongues was like this, and even though I loved the worship in many ways - it was just disorderly - and as such was inappropriate. I stood up in the middle of a service and told my wife we were leaving. She was none too happy with me, but in the end it worked out just like it was supposed to :-)

As to percentages, etc - I cannot answer - I have only been to a few churches that have speaking in tongues - and most were orderly to one degree or another.

By this - I would think it rather silly to never go to a church again because one time someone ran up and spoke in tongues and there was no intrepretation. If it is the norm at a place, or happens often at least - and the leadership does not speak out against it, then there is a problem.

To use the same logic - would be to say never go to a church where there has ever been gossip. If it is a pattern, then there is a problem.

Be Blessed!

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 08:35 PM
It is inappropriate - just as Paul describes it. It turns a gift of God into a mockery of its intent in my humble opinion.

One of the first churches I ever went to that spoke in tongues was like this, and even though I loved the worship in many ways - it was just disorderly - and as such was inappropriate. I stood up in the middle of a service and told my wife we were leaving. She was none too happy with me, but in the end it worked out just like it was supposed to :-)

As to percentages, etc - I cannot answer - I have only been to a few churches that have speaking in tongues - and most were orderly to one degree or another.

By this - I would think it rather silly to never go to a church again because one time someone ran up and spoke in tongues and there was no intrepretation. If it is the norm at a place, or happens often at least - and the leadership does not speak out against it, then there is a problem.

To use the same logic - would be to say never go to a church where there has ever been gossip. If it is a pattern, then there is a problem.

Be Blessed!
Thanks, obeytheword. I appreciate hearing your experiences.

Another question: Do you think we can get something from hearing "tongue speaking" that we do not have in the Word?

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 08:59 PM
It's my understanding of scriptures that "tongues" were real languages that could be understood. That was their use in spreading the gospel. At Pentecost, tongues were actual languages, not some unintelligible speech that some claim today.

The thing about tongues was that someone should be able to interpret ALWAYS. And they were real languages for the purpose of communicating the gospel, not just ecstatic utterances that appear to have no meaning to most people.

That's my understanding, anyway. God bless!

I realize this is responding to something not directed to me, and I apologize if that offends - just thought this was something that needed to be fleshed out.


I believe when scripture is truly examined there are 2 "effects" or end results of tongues - I use the word effects because I do not know what better word to use - just read below and you will see what I mean.

One is just as you describe - this is best understood by looking at Pentecost.

The other...

1 Corinthians 14:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

I think by this - it is clear that Paul is referring to just that. something no one understands. If it is German, then someone just might be there to understand :)



If you look at the Pentacost passage in full (or at least the first portion - not going to put it ALL here :-) pretty long.

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:1-25;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26943a)] as the Spirit enabled them. 5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"
13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:1-25;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26952b)]"

First - I always wondered about the tongues of fire - and how this particular encounter was different from the others - is the tongues of fire mentioned elsewhere? Do not recall off hand. Anyway, not a big deal, just interesting.

If you will look - the ones who heard their own tongues were "God-fearing Jews". I cannot say for certain, but it appears verse 13 is referring to "others" i.e. not God-fearing jews. All they heard was babbling - that is why they accused them of drinking.


So - what were they ACTUALLY speaking? - By this I mean if I speak to you right here and now - I would be speaking English - at least the American brand.

Were they each speaking an actual different language - empowered by the spirit - so everyone listened to a different disciple that they could understand in their language?

Verses 6-8 imply rather strongly that each person heard ALL the disciples in his own language


were they speaking in their "own" language and everyone through the spirit heart something else? If so, the verse in 13 just does not make sense in any context.

I believe they were speaking "estatic utterances that appear to have no meaning to most people" as you say. The spirit worked throughout the crowd so that each person heard them in their own language - and the ones that were not God-fearing Jews (verse 13) indeed heard what sounded like nonsense.

Anyway - just my .02 :bounce:

Be Blessed!

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 09:06 PM
Thanks, obeytheword. I appreciate hearing your experiences.

Another question: Do you think we can get something from hearing "tongue speaking" that we do not have in the Word?

Interesting question. I believe in part yes - and in part no - it would depend on exactly what you mean by something that we do not have in the word.

I can say from personal experience I feel close to God when I pray in tongues myself (self edification) This is something that I can ALSO get from reading the word - just a different way for that "feeling" to be conveyed. It is different, but very similar in all reality.

From hearing another speak? Not a thing without interpretation - but with interpretation - then yes - I can. But again, in the same context as I laid out above.

In essence when there are interpreted tongues - they act much like prophesy. And prophesy is to edify the body. Does the body REALLY get more than it gets from reading the word? In a way yes, and a way no.

Most prophesy that edifies the body I have heard is very much scripture based - but it is the scripture God is calling out for the body for this time here and now. So the answer is a qualified yes - it gives you something you would not have otherwise - but is based on the word..

So not certain exactly how to answer as the question is framed.

Hope that made sense.

Be Blessed!

Athanasius
Feb 14th 2008, 09:15 PM
It is not only Pentecostals who speak in tongues. I have met many Christians who don't belong to a Pentecostal church is speak in tongues.

Such as Charismatic Catholics ;)

I believe in the gift of tongues, I've heard it many, many, many, many times. That said, I've never spoken in tongues. . . . And yes, I've 'tried', if that is the right word.

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 09:16 PM
Guys, sorry I've got to bail on this thread for a bit. Family time now. God bless you all, and I will return, Lord willing, to continue this good conversation. Thanks to all!

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 09:22 PM
Guys, sorry I've got to bail on this thread for a bit. Family time now. God bless you all, and I will return, Lord willing, to continue this good conversation. Thanks to all!

Heh - I understand that for sure. Family comes way before we do as it should!

I will look forward to your return!

Be Blessed!

IBWatching
Feb 14th 2008, 09:32 PM
...If you will look - the ones who heard their own tongues were "God-fearing Jews". I cannot say for certain, but it appears verse 13 is referring to "others" i.e. not God-fearing jews. All they heard was babbling - that is why they accused them of drinking...

I usually avoid or walk away from these "tongues" threads, but because you touched on something which I think is key to understanding what the real gift of tongues are according to the Scriptures, I'll stay for just one post.

While the God-fearing Jews heard the tongues which the Holy Spirit enabled through the Apostles, and others didn't, we shouldn't take it as that those "God-fearing" Jews were Believers and the other were not. What I see it saying is that those who's hearts had been prepared by the Holy Spirit to Believe on Jesus Christ from among these Jews were the ones who heard the message. The others didn't simply because their hearts were not prepared, as evidenced by their reaction. In any case, I see no contradiction to Paul's statement later in 1 Corinthians 14 that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, because while the Jews in Acts 2 were "God-fearing" they were not yet Believers in Jesus Christ.

As far as 1 Corinthians 14 goes, those who do enough background study of the situation there (by reading the rest of the book) will come to understand what Paul was doing in that chapter. I find it ironic that some Christians today who do not do this, read the chapter and end up doing some of the very things Paul instructed that local assembly NOT to do. The chapter is FAR more simpler to understand if proper advance study is done, including Acts 2.

As far as the rest goes, my maturity has lead me to the point where I really don't care whether what some people today say about their speaking in tongues is true or not. I am a Believer who does not possess that gift (read chapter 12) and never have so it is not my problem.

The whole point of the Holy Spirit's enablement of Believers to speak in tongues (as well as every other Spiritual Gift) is so that unbelievers will come to Believe in Jesus Christ, not that someone will come to believe in tongues. There is only One Name under heaven which can Save mankind. It is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. It is the Son, Jesus Christ. Everything the Spirit is doing today is supposed to be working toward that end. We should all test ourselves. Is it?

grit
Feb 14th 2008, 10:10 PM
1 Cor 14:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Cor 12:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

According to scripture has God taken away the gift of tongues?That's an excellent question. If we were to limit the matter to only what is indicated by the Scriptures, I find the Scriptures purposefully undeterminative of a clear resolution regarding a cessation or taking away of such ecstatic speech at the close of the Apostolic age, or, rather, a completion of its primary focus of divine intent. What tends to be more determinative personally, is the matter and manner of interpretive perspective and experiential findings one is faced with. It's an issue like baptism, or the Lord's Supper, our manner of dress and hair stylings, or forms of temporal church government, where the Scriptures give clear indications upon which a doctrine concerning these can be based, but stops short of giving us every directive we might desire concerning their implementation and most proper use.

If we were to view the matter with an entirety of Scripture in mind, with a covenantal perspective regarding where and when such miraculous gifts occur in the history of God's unfolding plans and working with His people (concentrated around Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Samuel & David, Elijah & Elisha, and Jesus), and specifically with a detailed study of the context, cultural, and doctrinal particulars of the Pauline emphasis in the Corinthian passages... well, let's just say a very sound and reasonable argument can be presented for a completion of the primary purpose of glossolalia, the special office of Christ-apponited Apostleship, the dramatic signs of raising the dead, instananeous healing of body parts, multiplying food to thousands of people, walking on water, stilling storms, a prophetic writing of inspired Scripture, and other similar extraordinarily special endowments at the close of the Apostolic Age.

I find it very appropriate that we've toched on this issue and the context of 1 Corithians 8-14 (with an emphasis on the Love Chapter - 13) on this cultural, societal, and, for many, religious observance of Valentine's Day. An observance my Reformed tradition also discounts, notwithstanding that one of our local pastors insists on greeting his members with a holy kiss each Lord's Day. :kiss:

obeytheword
Feb 14th 2008, 10:12 PM
I usually avoid or walk away from these "tongues" threads, but because you touched on something which I think is key to understanding what the real gift of tongues are according to the Scriptures, I'll stay for just one post.

While the God-fearing Jews heard the tongues which the Holy Spirit enabled through the Apostles, and others didn't, we shouldn't take it as that those "God-fearing" Jews were Believers and the other were not. What I see it saying is that those who's hearts had been prepared by the Holy Spirit to Believe on Jesus Christ from among these Jews were the ones who heard the message. The others didn't simply because their hearts were not prepared, as evidenced by their reaction. In any case, I see no contradiction to Paul's statement later in 1 Corinthians 14 that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, because while the Jews in Acts 2 were "God-fearing" they were not yet Believers in Jesus Christ.

As far as 1 Corinthians 14 goes, those who do enough background study of the situation there (by reading the rest of the book) will come to understand what Paul was doing in that chapter. I find it ironic that some Christians today who do not do this, read the chapter and end up doing some of the very things Paul instructed that local assembly NOT to do. The chapter is FAR more simpler to understand if proper advance study is done, including Acts 2.

As far as the rest goes, my maturity has lead me to the point where I really don't care whether what some people today say about their speaking in tongues is true or not. I am a Believer who does not possess that gift (read chapter 12) and never have so it is not my problem.

The whole point of the Holy Spirit's enablement of Believers to speak in tongues (as well as every other Spiritual Gift) is so that unbelievers will come to Believe in Jesus Christ, not that someone will come to believe in tongues. There is only One Name under heaven which can Save mankind. It is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. It is the Son, Jesus Christ. Everything the Spirit is doing today is supposed to be working toward that end. We should all test ourselves. Is it?

You could very much be right on verse 13 - in that it is just ones prepared vs not prepared. I just think it is one that is overlooked when trying to understand if tongues as described referred to actual languages, or "babbling" as manny call it :)

I would never imply that tongues is a dividing line on "true" faith or anything like that. I as well am not overly concerned what others think about tongues - other than one point. I personally believe God is working within the body now to prepare us for what is coming. We currently have a decent amount of freedom in this country, but I believe you will not recognize it in 15 years - maybe less. Christians by and large are sleeping, and I believe the Holy Spirit is trying in any way it can to wake us up!

Be Blessed!

ProjectPeter
Feb 14th 2008, 10:25 PM
It is not only Pentecostals who speak in tongues. I have met many Christians who don't belong to a Pentecostal church is speak in tongues.Twas a joke. ;)

Whispering Grace
Feb 14th 2008, 11:07 PM
Twas a joke. ;)

I got it. ;)

Signed,
The Crazy Pentecostal

Thermodynamics
Feb 15th 2008, 03:02 AM
I do not believe that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit that is active or valid for our time. I believe it was a gift that was used in the age of the Apostles and ceased when John (the last Apostle) died. I believe it was intended to be used to further the spread of the Gospel. If you only spoke Hebrew and were speaking to a group with people who spoke Greek or Latin, they would understand you in Greek or Latin.

As it is used today, I don't see how it aids the spread of the Gospel.

Having said that, if you believe it it for today, I am fine with that. I love you no less as a brother or sister in Christ just because we don't agree on this issue.

Just a Door Keeper
Feb 15th 2008, 03:15 AM
Biblical tongues was known languages, not jibberish, not ecstatic utterances, known languages! We have the Scriptures today, the completed canon of Scripture, "...whether there be tongues, they shall cease...." 1Cor.13:8

obeytheword
Feb 15th 2008, 04:33 AM
Biblical tongues was known languages, not jibberish, not ecstatic utterances, known languages! We have the Scriptures today, the completed canon of Scripture, "...whether there be tongues, they shall cease...." 1Cor.13:8

If you look at a few more verses there, and not just 8 - I believe it shows a very different answer.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

I would say that it teaches that until the perfect has come, they will not cease. Don't think that perfection will come until the second coming - could be wrong, but not sure how else to take it.

Be Blessed!

grit
Feb 15th 2008, 05:37 AM
... I visited a penicostal school and at one of their meeting I heard them speaking in tongues. Some say people today people can still do it just like they did in the New Testiment others say it no longer exists and when somebody speaks in tongues now days it is of satan. So which one do you guys think it is?

I'm a CMB newbie, like you, Vivi, but in reviewing the CMB history of just this past year, there can be little doubt that the opinions here run strong and deep on this issue.

For what it's worth, and if it's of a help to you, here are a few of the CMB threads on tongues issues from January of last year up to the present, listed from newer to older. It seems almost a continual topic on the board. You might notice that if we post about it long enough, we have a tendency to get a bit heated and necessitate a cooling off period by closure. It can be very touchy, when some of our one Christian family sees tongues as a sign and seal of the Holy Spirit (even deciding it to be a necessary accompaniment to salvation), while others of our Christian family view tongues as emblematic of the works of Satan.

I think the key grace of gifted virtue we most ought to share from our One Heavenly Father, is a love of our brothers and sisters in Christ. It isn't wrong to study and safeguard our disparate beliefs and practices, each grounded on the Holy Word, and with an understanding that one truth is supreme and God is neither divided nor the author of confusion; but we must hold high the priestly prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ that we be one in Him as He is in the Father, and above all, love one another.

2007 CMB Tongues:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=113923 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=113923)
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=114351 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=114351)

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=104926 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=104926)
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=102262 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=102262)

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=94937 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=94937)
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=90819 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=90819)
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=91017 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=91017)
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=76565 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=76565)
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=75527 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=75527)
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=75297 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=75297)

servantsheart
Feb 15th 2008, 06:13 AM
W.E. Vines: Nomos- against those graces which constitute the fruit of the Spirit "there is no law," Gal. 5:23; verse 18 But if you are guided (led) by the {Holy} Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.
I Cor. 14:39...earnestly desire and set your hearts on prophesying (on being inspired to preach and teach and to interpret God's will and purpose), and do not forbid or hinder speaking in [unknown] tongues. Amplified
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. King James
1Cor.2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordaine before the world unto our glory.
verse13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritural things with spiritural. King James
verse14 But the natural, nonspiritural man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless non-sense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiriturally discerned and estimated and appreciated. 15 But he that is spiritural judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. Amplified
Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour and moment what [you] ought to say.
1 Cor.14:18 Paul, I thank God that I speak in [strange] tongues [langueages] more than any of you or all of you put together. Verse 22, Thus [unknow] tongues are meant for a [supernatural] sign, not for believers but for unblievers [on the point of believing], while prophecy (inspiried preaching and teaching, interpreting the divine will and purpose) is not for unbeliever [on the point of believing] but for believers.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Acts 19:6 And as Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke in [foreign, unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesied.
I do believe in a Holy Spirit filled utterance or tongue that is Holy Spirit given.

markedward
Feb 15th 2008, 07:52 AM
I've never spoken in tongues, but I've witnessed of a large number of people who have... but, of course, I've never witnessed it outside of a Pentecostal setting.

I believe it can (and does) happen, and that it is of God, but it is a particular gift for certain people; not every Christian is going to speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues is found in Scripture, and I see it coming from people with strong, Scripture-based faith in God, so I see no reason to condemn it.

Roelof
Feb 15th 2008, 11:26 AM
I don't have the gift of tongues, but I know the following points are true for all gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The outward gifts of his bounty are to be improved for His glory, and employed in doing good to others. No man has them merely for himself. They are a trust put into his hands, to profit withal; and the more he profits others with them, the more abundantly will they turn to his account in the end, Phil. 4:17. Spiritual gifts are bestowed, that men may with them profit the church and promote Christianity. They are not given for show, but for service; not for pomp and ostentation, but for edification; not to magnify those that have them, but to edify others.

VerticalReality
Feb 15th 2008, 02:26 PM
I knew it was a matter of time before folks started using 1 Corinthians 13:8 for their proof text that the gift of tongues has ceased. I also knew it was a matter of time before someone countered that argument by saying the "that which is perfect" is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

However, what I would like to propose to you folks is that the "that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 is not talking about the bible or the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Just a little something to think about is the fact that in this passage Paul states that he will see the "that which is perfect". Well, if that's the case this can't be speaking of the bible since the bible was not canonized before his death. In addition, it can't be the Second Coming because that didn't happen before his death either. The key to this passage of Scripture is what Paul is saying about how we look in a mirror dimly. What other Scriptures talk about us looking in a mirror (2 Corinthians 3:18)? If the "that which is perfect" is neither the bible nor the Second Coming, what other possibilities are there?

ProjectPeter
Feb 15th 2008, 03:13 PM
I got it. ;)

Signed,
The Crazy Pentecostal
I knew you would! :lol:

ProjectPeter
Feb 15th 2008, 03:26 PM
I've never spoken in tongues, but I've witnessed of a large number of people who have... but, of course, I've never witnessed it outside of a Pentecostal setting.

I believe it can (and does) happen, and that it is of God, but it is a particular gift for certain people; not every Christian is going to speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues is found in Scripture, and I see it coming from people with strong, Scripture-based faith in God, so I see no reason to condemn it.
I think you have a pretty good grasp on it.

Also let me say for the record as I do when this thread comes up. There is a lot of folks that are doing nothing but acting in their flesh when they "speak in tongues." I am one of those Pentecostal type that will go even as far as to say that the vast majority of what you hear out there today is just that very thing. There are many churches that allow it to be operated in error. Even go as far to say that a lot of them do. BUT THAT BEING SAID... the misuse and or the actions of folks flesh doesn't at all diminish the biblical fact that tongues exist and that tongues are a gift of the Spirit and that the Spirit still in fact ain't afraid to dole out that gift.

For those of you who are quick to say that tongues are from Satan... let me warn you that you could well be approaching a sin that God will not forgive. You are attributing what well could be a work of the Spirit as a work of the devil. Jesus gave a grave warning on doing that sort of thing.

For those of you who think that last few verses in 1 Corinthians 13 nixes tongues and "that which is perfect" is the Bible... that's a popular argument in a few circles but it is the most weak argument that one can make.

For those that think it only a KNOWN language basing that on the events in early Acts... that is fine. But you are also discounting other Scripture as well. Simply fact of the matter... it isn't mentioned much other than in Acts and in Paul's letter to the Corinth church. Acts simply states folks spoke in tongues. Only once are we told what was heard when that tongue was spoken and even that was generic in that it said they heard them in their own language "speaking of the mighty deeds of God." So don't be so quick, based on that little bit of information, to think your belief solid, firm, and indisputable.

Folks that want to just jump in and call it jibberish and nonsense... don't do it. Speaking as an Admin now.If that is the best you can offer the discussion then don't offer it. It does nothing for the discussion and just gets folks riled and the thread gets nasty. If you have a point to make that is respectful then cool. If you just want to rail against Pentecostals and Charismatics that do believe the gifts are all active today... take that somewhere else outside of this forum. I, and others, will talk Scripture with you all day long. Just keep it civil.

ProjectPeter
Feb 15th 2008, 03:29 PM
I knew it was a matter of time before folks started using 1 Corinthians 13:8 for their proof text that the gift of tongues has ceased. I also knew it was a matter of time before someone countered that argument by saying the "that which is perfect" is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

However, what I would like to propose to you folks is that the "that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 is not talking about the bible or the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Just a little something to think about is the fact that in this passage Paul states that he will see the "that which is perfect". Well, if that's the case this can't be speaking of the bible since the bible was not canonized before his death. In addition, it can't be the Second Coming because that didn't happen before his death either. The key to this passage of Scripture is what Paul is saying about how we look in a mirror dimly. What other Scriptures talk about us looking in a mirror (2 Corinthians 3:18)? If the "that which is perfect" is neither the bible nor the Second Coming, what other possibilities are there?
When that which is perfect has come... speaking of the very context of that 13th Chapter... Love.

VerticalReality
Feb 15th 2008, 03:37 PM
Even go as far to say that a lot of them do. BUT THAT BEING SAID... the misuse and or the actions of folks flesh doesn't at all diminish the biblical fact that tongues exist and that tongues are a gift of the Spirit and that the Spirit still in fact ain't afraid to dole out that gift.

Agree with this. The fact that the Corinthian Church that Paul was correcting was operating in the true gift of tongues inappropriately didn't diminish the fact that it was still the true gift of tongues given by the Spirit. Likewise, just because many churches today operate in this gift in a disorderly fashion doesn't mean it isn't the true gift. These folks are simply not following orderly guidelines given by the Lord.

Matt14
Feb 18th 2008, 09:21 PM
Sorry I've been away so long from this thread. Lots going on on the ground.

Anyway, I've been thinking. Many in this thread mention that speaking in tongues is a gift and that it is still given by God today.

Do any who believe that believe that the gift of healing is still given today? Are people miraculously healed at the hand of men today?

obeytheword
Feb 18th 2008, 09:42 PM
Sorry I've been away so long from this thread. Lots going on on the ground.

Anyway, I've been thinking. Many in this thread mention that speaking in tongues is a gift and that it is still given by God today.

Do any who believe that believe that the gift of healing is still given today? Are people miraculously healed at the hand of men today?

Always interesting to see how a particular question is worded sometimes ;)

Yes - I believe the gift of healing is still given today. In the third world on the mission field it is something occurring much much more often than in the states. I have not personally witnessed a healing that was without dispute divine, but I have heard of first hand accounts of this happening several times from people I believe implicitly.

As to the second - I will re-phrase the question slightly before I answer. People continue to be healed by the laying on of hands through the work of the Holy Spirit. Not trying to be picky in re-phrasing it, just trying to get a bit more specific. It may be through the hands of men, but not by them :)


Be Blessed!

menJesus
Feb 18th 2008, 09:45 PM
Sorry I've been away so long from this thread. Lots going on on the ground.

Anyway, I've been thinking. Many in this thread mention that speaking in tongues is a gift and that it is still given by God today.

Do any who believe that believe that the gift of healing is still given today? Are people miraculously healed at the hand of men today?



Yes! Yes! Yes! Healing is a gift - if a man - or woman - has that gift, then God will use him - or her - to heal people. Absolutely!

Matt14
Feb 18th 2008, 10:23 PM
In the first century people were raised from the dead and healed of handicaps they had since birth. Any documentation of this that I can review? Does it always only happen in "third world countries" where it would be impossible to verify?

The reason I ask is because the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of healing, etc., seem to be connected. If one is available today, ALL should be. Do you agree?

Matt14
Feb 18th 2008, 10:25 PM
Always interesting to see how a particular question is worded sometimes ;)

Yes - I believe the gift of healing is still given today. In the third world on the mission field it is something occurring much much more often than in the states. I have not personally witnessed a healing that was without dispute divine, but I have heard of first hand accounts of this happening several times from people I believe implicitly.

As to the second - I will re-phrase the question slightly before I answer. People continue to be healed by the laying on of hands through the work of the Holy Spirit. Not trying to be picky in re-phrasing it, just trying to get a bit more specific. It may be through the hands of men, but not by them :)


Be Blessed!
The reason I highlighted "by the hand of men" is because God can surely heal people through His own processes, whether that would be miraculous or providential.

However, in the first century men laid hands on the sick and they were immediately and completely healed. I have never seen evidence of this happening in our times. If you have some evidence, I would love to explore it!

Codger
Feb 18th 2008, 10:34 PM
The four waves of Pentecostalism:
1- The "Classical Pentecostal Movement" started by started in 1901 by Parham and Seymour (Azusa Street) has now over 11,000 pentecostal denominations throughout the world.
2- The "Neo-Pentecostal" movement started in 1960 in Van Nuys, California, under Dennis Bennett, Rector of St Marks Episcopal (Anglican) Church. In ten years it spread to all major Protestant families of the world, reaching a total of 55 million people by 1990.
3- The Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement started in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in 1967 among students and faculty of DuQuesne University, and by 1993 it has touched the lives of over 100 million Catholics in over 238 nations.
4- The Evangelicals started in 1981 at Fuller Theological Seminary with John Wimber. By 1990, 33 millions in the world were moving in signs and wonders, though they disdain labels such as "Pentecostal" and "charismatic".

Stats show that back in 2000 there were 523,777,994 Pentecostals and Charismatics in the world. This number is projected to increase to 811,551,594 by 2025; and over a billion (1,066,318,949) by 2050 - Lord willing.

Back in the 70's there were a lot of doctrinal experts who vehimately preached against the error of Tongues. A lot of these people even stated that it was of the Devil. This movment has subsided and almost disappeared from what it once was - as now most of these Churches have silently accepted the gifts themselves -without fanfare. Today, you never know what to expect when you visit mainline Churches. I think it's great.

Larry

godsgirl
Feb 18th 2008, 10:44 PM
Pentecostal churches started in Acts chapter 2 verse 4.

markedward
Feb 18th 2008, 10:54 PM
Pentecostal churches started in Acts chapter 2 verse 4.You know... I would rather think that the Church started back then, rather than a division, based upon a denomination, of the body of Christ starting on day one.

obeytheword
Feb 18th 2008, 10:57 PM
In the first century people were raised from the dead and healed of handicaps they had since birth. Any documentation of this that I can review? Does it always only happen in "third world countries" where it would be impossible to verify?

The reason I ask is because the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of healing, etc., seem to be connected. If one is available today, ALL should be. Do you agree?

If one of your best friends grew up in Thailand - son of missionary parents, and he could affirm how he had seen bones knit together in front of his eyes would that impact your belief? It among other things has mine.

You believe in MANY things you do not have irrefutable proof of - pretty much everything involving your faith you do not believe because you have scientifically verifiable proof of :) (at least I hope not)

The bible says this happened, and never says it has stopped - so why would you conclude it stopped?

If you limit your faith to what you have "proof" of, then you will be limited in what you can believe - no offense intended. Faith IS by definition belief in things unseen afterall:pp


This is not to say that I believe every time I hear of a supposed "miracle" happening. The word of faith movement is filled with a bunch of idiots and money-hungry people - though there are genuine Christians and anointed people even there. Satan of course would love to confuse the issue, and give us reason to conclude that the spirit does not have power, and it is all a bunch of junk. Look what he did in Corinth WITH the gift of tongues and the counterfeit?

Be Blessed!

obeytheword
Feb 18th 2008, 11:04 PM
The reason I highlighted "by the hand of men" is because God can surely heal people through His own processes, whether that would be miraculous or providential.

However, in the first century men laid hands on the sick and they were immediately and completely healed. I have never seen evidence of this happening in our times. If you have some evidence, I would love to explore it!

Just be careful not to be Thomas ;)

I know there is a counsel I used to have a website for of Doctors who would independently verify divine healings. They could refute - or at least come up with alternate possibilities for a great number of them, but many they had very specific scientific proof of the healing occurring, and could not in any way refute it. These are not Christian doctors who just want to push it through, but mostly secular ones who would honestly like to disprove the results if possible.

Anyway, I will dig around, and see if I can find the website - been awhile since I have been on there.

Be Blessed!

menJesus
Feb 18th 2008, 11:17 PM
In the first century people were raised from the dead and healed of handicaps they had since birth. Any documentation of this that I can review? Does it always only happen in "third world countries" where it would be impossible to verify?

The reason I ask is because the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of healing, etc., seem to be connected. If one is available today, ALL should be. Do you agree?

The only connection I know of is that they are gifts given by the same Spirit.

Do a Google search on "raised from the dead" - I am on pp 32 and still reading...

There are threads of healings on here, also.

God never left us - WE - as a people - left Him. That is why the miracles and healings are so rare nowadays.

Matt14
Feb 18th 2008, 11:26 PM
If one of your best friends grew up in Thailand - son of missionary parents, and he could affirm how he had seen bones knit together in front of his eyes would that impact your belief? It among other things has mine.

You believe in MANY things you do not have irrefutable proof of - pretty much everything involving your faith you do not believe because you have scientifically verifiable proof of :) (at least I hope not)

The bible says this happened, and never says it has stopped - so why would you conclude it stopped?

If you limit your faith to what you have "proof" of, then you will be limited in what you can believe - no offense intended. Faith IS by definition belief in things unseen afterall:pp


This is not to say that I believe every time I hear of a supposed "miracle" happening. The word of faith movement is filled with a bunch of idiots and money-hungry people - though there are genuine Christians and anointed people even there. Satan of course would love to confuse the issue, and give us reason to conclude that the spirit does not have power, and it is all a bunch of junk. Look what he did in Corinth WITH the gift of tongues and the counterfeit?

Be Blessed!

On the contrary, I believe the Bible does teach that these gifts have passed away. Perhaps we could study that together, in a more suitable format (not in this thread).

I'm not in this thread to discourage you, or challenge everything you think and feel. Just throwing out some food for thought.

I've been interested in this topic lately. One book I ordered recently is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310201551

Maybe I'll learn something from reading this book that I can share. :)

As for your friend's story, I would have to have a lot more information before I could believe such a thing. How old was he? What was the person's name who received this miracle? Who was the person laying hands on him to do the healing? Names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.

Do you have these sorts of information? I would love to see some more information on what you are claiming.

Matt14
Feb 18th 2008, 11:30 PM
Just be careful not to be Thomas ;)

I know there is a counsel I used to have a website for of Doctors who would independently verify divine healings. They could refute - or at least come up with alternate possibilities for a great number of them, but many they had very specific scientific proof of the healing occurring, and could not in any way refute it. These are not Christian doctors who just want to push it through, but mostly secular ones who would honestly like to disprove the results if possible.

Anyway, I will dig around, and see if I can find the website - been awhile since I have been on there.

Be Blessed!
What kind of healings, though?

God tells us to pray for the sick. If they could not be healed by Him, He would not tell us to pray! So I believe that God does heal, if it is His will.

However, it's that part about people still having miraculous power to heal that I take issue with. I'm definitely a cessationist. :)

Anyway, not trying to stray away from the topic of tongues. But I think the miraculous powers and the tongue speaking go together, in my understanding.

God bless! Thanks for the good discussion.

Matt14
Feb 18th 2008, 11:37 PM
The only connection I know of is that they are gifts given by the same Spirit.

Do a Google search on "raised from the dead" - I am on pp 32 and still reading...

There are threads of healings on here, also.

God never left us - WE - as a people - left Him. That is why the miracles and healings are so rare nowadays.
No one has said "God has left us." That's a false assumption of people who believe the miraculous gifts have passed away.

The truth of the cessationist view is not that they think God has "left us," but just that He allowed the apostles to perform miraculous deeds in order to confirm that the word they preached was true:

Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
Heb 2:4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

The purpose of the signs and wonders was to witness to the word. Now that the complete will of God is revealed and contained in scripture, there is no need for these gifts, in my understanding.

But, perhaps that's a discuss to have in another thread, on another day. :)

VerticalReality
Feb 18th 2008, 11:44 PM
The purpose of the signs and wonders was to witness to the word. Now that the complete will of God is revealed and contained in scripture, there is no need for these gifts, in my understanding.

Just curious, but why do you believe that the Word needed witnessed to then but it doesn't need witnessed to today? Just going by my own experience dealing with unbelievers, those signs are very much needed. How many times have you heard an unbeliever state something to the effect of . . .

"What makes your Scriptures right and the Islam scriptures wrong?"

or . . .

"There are so many religions in this world . . . what makes yours the right one?"

How do you answer such a question, Matt14, and how do you assure an unbeliever that what you are saying is true and what Islam says is false? Why should an unbeliever believe you as opposed to the Muslim down the street telling him that he should follow Muhammed?

Matt14
Feb 19th 2008, 12:05 AM
Just curious, but why do you believe that the Word needed witnessed to then but it doesn't need witnessed to today? Just going by my own experience dealing with unbelievers, those signs are very much needed. How many times have you heard an unbeliever state something to the effect of . . .

"What makes your Scriptures right and the Islam scriptures wrong?"

or . . .

"There are so many religions in this world . . . what makes yours the right one?"

How do you answer such a question, Matt14, and how do you assure an unbeliever that what you are saying is true and what Islam says is false? Why should an unbeliever believe you as opposed to the Muslim down the street telling him that he should follow Muhammed?
Well, to begin with, if the Bible is not enough to bring about belief, then we are in trouble. Most folks came to belief because they heard the word of God (Romans 10:17) not because they say a miraculous deed performed.

Second, Paul said during his time they "prophesied in part." So you see, even the miraculous deeds of the first century were not perfect, were they? There was something more needed.

What was needed was a completion and collection of God's inspired word to man. Once this came, there was no need for any partial prophesying.

So in short, the gifts were needed in the first century to confirm that the word being spoken was from God, because prophecy was only in part. Now that it is complete, it is no longer needed.

The complete word of God is far more powerful than partial prophecy. That's why it is not needed today to convince a Muslim.

And the main argument against what you are suggesting is the fact that if these gifts were available today, we would have mass conversions when the miracles are witnessed. However, we do not see this.

If God wanted this, it would happen. But He's entrusted the gospel to us "earthen vessels."

godsgirl
Feb 19th 2008, 12:07 AM
You know... I would rather think that the Church started back then, rather than a division, based upon a denomination, of the body of Christ starting on day one.

Except I don't think the early church denied (like most denoms. do today) the baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues as evidence-that's why I said the Pentecostal church started then.

VerticalReality
Feb 19th 2008, 01:21 AM
Well, to begin with, if the Bible is not enough to bring about belief, then we are in trouble. Most folks came to belief because they heard the word of God (Romans 10:17) not because they say a miraculous deed performed.

Second, Paul said during his time they "prophesied in part." So you see, even the miraculous deeds of the first century were not perfect, were they? There was something more needed.

What was needed was a completion and collection of God's inspired word to man. Once this came, there was no need for any partial prophesying.

So in short, the gifts were needed in the first century to confirm that the word being spoken was from God, because prophecy was only in part. Now that it is complete, it is no longer needed.

The complete word of God is far more powerful than partial prophecy. That's why it is not needed today to convince a Muslim.

And the main argument against what you are suggesting is the fact that if these gifts were available today, we would have mass conversions when the miracles are witnessed. However, we do not see this.

If God wanted this, it would happen. But He's entrusted the gospel to us "earthen vessels."

I see you believe that the bible is the "that which is perfect" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13 . . .

What do you make of this comment by Paul?



1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.


What do you think it is here that Paul is saying he will know? Do you believe this is the completed bible?

obeytheword
Feb 19th 2008, 02:03 AM
On the contrary, I believe the Bible does teach that these gifts have passed away. Perhaps we could study that together, in a more suitable format (not in this thread).

I'm not in this thread to discourage you, or challenge everything you think and feel. Just throwing out some food for thought.

I've been interested in this topic lately. One book I ordered recently is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310201551

Maybe I'll learn something from reading this book that I can share. :)

As for your friend's story, I would have to have a lot more information before I could believe such a thing. How old was he? What was the person's name who received this miracle? Who was the person laying hands on him to do the healing? Names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.

Do you have these sorts of information? I would love to see some more information on what you are claiming.

As to my friends story, he has been eye-witness to several divine healings. I doubt he has any of that info - I was not using it as proof in and of itself - but if your best friend could say the same, would it affect your beliefs?

Be Blessed!

godsgirl
Feb 19th 2008, 12:43 PM
Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.

that should settle it.

ProjectPeter
Feb 19th 2008, 04:07 PM
Sorry I've been away so long from this thread. Lots going on on the ground.

Anyway, I've been thinking. Many in this thread mention that speaking in tongues is a gift and that it is still given by God today.

Do any who believe that believe that the gift of healing is still given today? Are people miraculously healed at the hand of men today?Sure... although "at the hand of men" is pretty loaded because it's not man doing it... tis the Spirit empowering the gift in the man.

ProjectPeter
Feb 19th 2008, 04:15 PM
In the first century people were raised from the dead and healed of handicaps they had since birth. Any documentation of this that I can review? Does it always only happen in "third world countries" where it would be impossible to verify?

The reason I ask is because the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of healing, etc., seem to be connected. If one is available today, ALL should be. Do you agree?There is evidence out there of healings and the like taking place. But if you don't believe it happens then you're not going to likely believe the evidence given. I've had many a folk ask for such as that and even introduced a couple of folks to a man that was blind from birth and was healed in such a way when he was in his 30's. Then I listened as they explained it away no matter the evidence... why? They don't believe it.

ProjectPeter
Feb 19th 2008, 04:20 PM
On the contrary, I believe the Bible does teach that these gifts have passed away. Perhaps we could study that together, in a more suitable format (not in this thread).

I'm not in this thread to discourage you, or challenge everything you think and feel. Just throwing out some food for thought.

I've been interested in this topic lately. One book I ordered recently is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310201551

Maybe I'll learn something from reading this book that I can share. :)

As for your friend's story, I would have to have a lot more information before I could believe such a thing. How old was he? What was the person's name who received this miracle? Who was the person laying hands on him to do the healing? Names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.

Do you have these sorts of information? I would love to see some more information on what you are claiming.And you just proved my last post! :lol: If one doesn't believe then the telephone numbers and addresses won't help because then you'll want to see CatScan results and have ten doctors agree it was a divine healing etc. It would be a never ending list of demands and you'd still draw the conclusion you have already concluded.

It is funny to me how so many folks say "I've never seen it" but then they have spent most of their life in a church that doesn't believe it nor do they practice it and if you don't believe it or practice it then it's a given... you ain't going to see it.

Slug1
Feb 19th 2008, 04:45 PM
One of the reason's IMO why some people or even congregations don't experience the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and not "just" tongues but all the 9 main Gifts is because of the rebellion of believing in them. Like ya said PP, if a person is gonna demand explanation and will doubt until they receive satisfactory explanation and evidence then why should God bestow these Gifts on such folk?

Isn't faith enough?

VerticalReality
Feb 19th 2008, 05:01 PM
It is funny to me how so many folks say "I've never seen it" but then they have spent most of their life in a church that doesn't believe it nor do they practice it and if you don't believe it or practice it then it's a given... you ain't going to see it.

That's 100% fact right there. If you surround yourself with folks who don't believe, well . . . what in the world do you expect to happen? The Word doesn't say without unbelief it is impossible to please Him.

I see this coming from one of two areas usually . . .

1) A person has spent their entire time as a Christian surrounded by those who teach against the gifts of the Spirit and don't believe in them

or . . .

2) A person goes to a loopy church for a while with folks who act like fruitloops calling what they do the "gifts of the Spirit" when all it is is a lot of emotionalism and downright goofiness. This person then leaves this church with a bad taste in their mouth for the gifts of the Spirit and they don't believe based upon faulty experience

ProjectPeter
Feb 19th 2008, 05:25 PM
That's 100% fact right there. If you surround yourself with folks who don't believe, well . . . what in the world do you expect to happen? The Word doesn't say without unbelief it is impossible to please Him.

I see this coming from one of two areas usually . . .

1) A person has spent their entire time as a Christian surrounded by those who teach against the gifts of the Spirit and don't believe in them

or . . .

2) A person goes to a loopy church for a while with folks who act like fruitloops calling what they do the "gifts of the Spirit" when all it is is a lot of emotionalism and downright goofiness. This person then leaves this church with a bad taste in their mouth for the gifts of the Spirit and they don't believe based upon faulty experience
Yeah... that's pretty much the two options.

Slug1
Feb 19th 2008, 05:26 PM
2) A person goes to a loopy church for a while with folks who act like fruitloops calling what they do the "gifts of the Spirit" when all it is is a lot of emotionalism and downright goofiness. This person then leaves this church with a bad taste in their mouth for the gifts of the Spirit and they don't believe based upon faulty experienceThis is how it was with me seeing this stuff on TV, until I was led to a solid Bible based church and experienced the real deal. It's an eye opener!

Matter of fact, tonight is week 5 of our Bible Study of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the topic tonight are the communication Gifts... should be enlightening.

ProjectPeter
Feb 19th 2008, 05:41 PM
This is how it was with me seeing this stuff on TV, until I was led to a solid Bible based church and experienced the real deal. It's an eye opener!

Matter of fact, tonight is week 5 of our Bible Study of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the topic tonight are the communication Gifts... should be enlightening.
It is no doubt, as I stated earlier in this thread and in most other threads on this topic... people get goofy. They are no more operating in the gift of the Spirit than there is a man in the moon. They are in the flesh at best and at worst... some of it may well be demonic. I've seen some cases where I've no doubt that the case. BUT... that doesn't negate the reality of the gift of the Spirit. That's where I think folks fall off into a ditch.

Slug1
Feb 19th 2008, 05:45 PM
It is no doubt, as I stated earlier in this thread and in most other threads on this topic... people get goofy. They are no more operating in the gift of the Spirit than there is a man in the moon. They are in the flesh at best and at worst... some of it may well be demonic. I've seen some cases where I've no doubt that the case. BUT... that doesn't negate the reality of the gift of the Spirit. That's where I think folks fall off into a ditch.God has lifted me out of this ditch :pp

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 05:56 AM
And you just proved my last post! :lol: If one doesn't believe then the telephone numbers and addresses won't help because then you'll want to see CatScan results and have ten doctors agree it was a divine healing etc. It would be a never ending list of demands and you'd still draw the conclusion you have already concluded.

It is funny to me how so many folks say "I've never seen it" but then they have spent most of their life in a church that doesn't believe it nor do they practice it and if you don't believe it or practice it then it's a given... you ain't going to see it.
PP, if I come up and see you, would I be able to see someone healed of a crippling disease? Would that be something that happens commonly enough for me to experience it, if I was among you and other who believe it happens?

BTW, I was not "raised among people who didn't believe it happens." ;)

Athanasius
Feb 20th 2008, 06:09 AM
On the contrary, I believe the Bible does teach that these gifts have passed away.

I hate to be a jerk, but I looked through this thread and didn't see you provide any scripture to back up this point.

Got any?

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 03:59 PM
I hate to be a jerk, but I looked through this thread and didn't see you provide any scripture to back up this point.

Got any?

Sure. I don't believe anything that the scriptures do not teach. And you are being anything but a jerk. ALWAYS demand scriptural evidence of things people believe about God. I did not go into the scriptural arguments because I did not want to derail this thread.

Anyway...

The main reasons I believe the miraculous gifts are not at work today is because:

1. The gifts were for a specific purpose, ie. confirming the word of God that was not yet fully given and comitted to a permanent source (the Bible):

Mar 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
Heb 2:4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

These passages show that the purpose of the gifts was to confirm that the Word being preached was from God. They did not have full revelation in a convenient format, but the gifts of the Spirit were part of the instrument by which that word came about. To say that prophecy and such is still available to man as a gift of the Spirit implies that the word is not yet complete.

2. I believe the Bible teaches the gifts were to pass away when God's whole revelation was complete.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

I believe the "perfect" or complete, whole, that Paul talks about is the completed revelation of God, ie. the New Testament. Some disagree, and it would take a long time to discuss this with you. But if you are truly interested in why I believe this, please read this article:

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/miracles

I agree with most everything in this article, and it explains my view well.

3. The miraculous gifts of the Spirit were transferable only by the apostles.

In other words, although an apostle could pass on the gifts of healing, etc., on to another person, the regular person who received the gift could not pass them on. Witness:

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
Act 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

In this passage, we see Philip, an evangelist with miraculous gifts of healing preaching and convincing and showing signs. However, Peter and John had to come down to Samaria to lay hands on these Christians so that they might receive the gifts. Philip could not transfer the gifts, because he was not an apostles.

The conclusion one would reach by this event is that when all the apostles were gone, there was left no one who could transfer the gifts of the outpouring that were given in Acts 2 and 10.

Now, one might say, "Well, God pours out His gifts upon us like He did Cornelius and his family." This would be a valid point. However, we know that the outpouring of the Spirit in Acts 2 was a one-time event to show the Jews that salvation had come. The outpouring in Acts 10, in a similar way, was for the purpose of showing the salvation had come to the Gentiles as well. This is how Peter took this sign, and the Jews he discussed this with in Acts 11 took it this way as well.

Okay, there you go. Those are two of my reasons. I really did not intend on getting into a big debate in this thread. I was simply asking some honest questions, but it appears some are getting offended by my questions. So perhaps I should bow out.

God bless!

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 04:41 PM
Hoowhee! I read the christiancourier article, and I will say this: they are way, WAY offbase here.

Aside from that, who will you believe - them or the Word of God?

All the gifts are for us today... all of them.

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 04:59 PM
Hoowhee! I read the christiancourier article, and I will say this: they are way, WAY offbase here.

Aside from that, who will you believe - them or the Word of God?

All the gifts are for us today... all of them.
That's not a very complete analysis you present there as to why you disagree. ;)

The article pretty much works right from scripture. What do you see as being incorrect about what the writer says?

VerticalReality
Feb 20th 2008, 05:06 PM
I didn't bother to read the article because I'm sure it's not anything I haven't seen countless times over. However, I do disagree with the notion that Scripture teaches that the gifts of the Spirit must be delivered through the early church apostles. I don't see that anywhere in the Scriptures. Saying that it's a requirement to have the early apostles transfer the gifts simply because it was Peter and John who laid hands on the Samaritans in Acts 8 is just a whole lot of assumption, IMO. The apostles were responsible for laying the foundation of the church. That doesn't mean that once the foundation is laid that there won't be anything else built on that foundation.

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 05:10 PM
PP, if I come up and see you, would I be able to see someone healed of a crippling disease? Would that be something that happens commonly enough for me to experience it, if I was among you and other who believe it happens?

BTW, I was not "raised among people who didn't believe it happens." ;)Matt,

That isn't my call to make but if the Spirit wanted to impart that gift on someone to prove it to you then that is up to Him. However... I don't think He ever would because you don't believe. You have Scripture that says it is for real... I understand you figure "that which is perfect" is the written Scripture although that seems a very far stretch to me... and you think all that stuff is done now. But again... there is nothing at all that says the Spirit stopped doling out gifts for the edification of the body. So until someone can show me that then I'm going to believe what the Bible clearly says.

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 05:19 PM
That's not a very complete analysis you present there as to why you disagree. ;)

The article pretty much works right from scripture. What do you see as being incorrect about what the writer says?

Sorry - I am unable to pull up 75 Scriptures to prove my points here. But I say this:

The article quoted Scripture, yes, but out of context and incorrectly, and in a very biased manner. This is something to be wary of - do not believe everything you read!

Read the entire book of Acts. Study it. This will give you a good idea of the truth re: this issue.

Back in the OT, men walked and talked with God. A supernatural relationship was commonplace, because God was/is a supernatural God!

MAN has left God - God hasn`t left man. When we turn back to Him, we will live again as the apostles did.

I know a lot of people disagree with this - but hey - a supernatural God is anything but "ordinary". ;) Why should our relationship be ordinary?

And PLEASE don`t bow out - you need to learn the truth here. God bless you!

obeytheword
Feb 20th 2008, 05:49 PM
Sure. I don't believe anything that the scriptures do not teach. And you are being anything but a jerk. ALWAYS demand scriptural evidence of things people believe about God. I did not go into the scriptural arguments because I did not want to derail this thread.

Anyway...

The main reasons I believe the miraculous gifts are not at work today is because:

1. The gifts were for a specific purpose, ie. confirming the word of God that was not yet fully given and comitted to a permanent source (the Bible):

Mar 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
Heb 2:4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

These passages show that the purpose of the gifts was to confirm that the Word being preached was from God. They did not have full revelation in a convenient format, but the gifts of the Spirit were part of the instrument by which that word came about. To say that prophecy and such is still available to man as a gift of the Spirit implies that the word is not yet complete.

2. I believe the Bible teaches the gifts were to pass away when God's whole revelation was complete.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

I believe the "perfect" or complete, whole, that Paul talks about is the completed revelation of God, ie. the New Testament. Some disagree, and it would take a long time to discuss this with you. But if you are truly interested in why I believe this, please read this article:

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/miracles

I agree with most everything in this article, and it explains my view well.

3. The miraculous gifts of the Spirit were transferable only by the apostles.

In other words, although an apostle could pass on the gifts of healing, etc., on to another person, the regular person who received the gift could not pass them on. Witness:

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
Act 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

In this passage, we see Philip, an evangelist with miraculous gifts of healing preaching and convincing and showing signs. However, Peter and John had to come down to Samaria to lay hands on these Christians so that they might receive the gifts. Philip could not transfer the gifts, because he was not an apostles.

The conclusion one would reach by this event is that when all the apostles were gone, there was left no one who could transfer the gifts of the outpouring that were given in Acts 2 and 10.

Now, one might say, "Well, God pours out His gifts upon us like He did Cornelius and his family." This would be a valid point. However, we know that the outpouring of the Spirit in Acts 2 was a one-time event to show the Jews that salvation had come. The outpouring in Acts 10, in a similar way, was for the purpose of showing the salvation had come to the Gentiles as well. This is how Peter took this sign, and the Jews he discussed this with in Acts 11 took it this way as well.

Okay, there you go. Those are two of my reasons. I really did not intend on getting into a big debate in this thread. I was simply asking some honest questions, but it appears some are getting offended by my questions. So perhaps I should bow out.

God bless!

Thank you for giving us your view. However - there is something that seems a bit inconsistent to me in this particular position.

When did the gifts go away?

When the last person who had an apostle lay hands on them died? - As you assert that ONLY an apostle laying hands on someone could impart the gift

When the completed bible was put together?

There is a span of several hundred years between these two things - however your argument seems to put emphasis on BOTH of them in regards to the assertion you make.

This DOES seem to be a rather large inconsistency in the argument itself.

Be Blessed!

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 05:51 PM
Actually what I saw was the writer calling Pentecostal folk "Christians" and tying us in with witchdoctors, cult groups, New Age healers, and a whole list of other negative types. That is about the silliest tactic that I see folks use... even on the board... you have seen it too and I'm figuring not real fond of it. Remember all the NOSAS threads where it never failed... "you are Catholic!" Just a simple way to try to tie your belief in with a whole bunch of negative stuff so as to paint you in that negative light.

I wouldn't much give the guy the time of day truth be told because of that sort of stuff.

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 05:56 PM
I didn't bother to read the article because I'm sure it's not anything I haven't seen countless times over. However, I do disagree with the notion that Scripture teaches that the gifts of the Spirit must be delivered through the early church apostles. I don't see that anywhere in the Scriptures. Saying that it's a requirement to have the early apostles transfer the gifts simply because it was Peter and John who laid hands on the Samaritans in Acts 8 is just a whole lot of assumption, IMO. The apostles were responsible for laying the foundation of the church. That doesn't mean that once the foundation is laid that there won't be anything else built on that foundation.
Why didn't Philip do it, then? Just read the context, and you will see that the express purpose for Peter and John coming was because the Spirit had yet to fall on any of the Christians at Samaria, despite the fact that Philip had been showing the miraculous signs.

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 05:58 PM
Matt,

That isn't my call to make but if the Spirit wanted to impart that gift on someone to prove it to you then that is up to Him. However... I don't think He ever would because you don't believe. You have Scripture that says it is for real... I understand you figure "that which is perfect" is the written Scripture although that seems a very far stretch to me... and you think all that stuff is done now. But again... there is nothing at all that says the Spirit stopped doling out gifts for the edification of the body. So until someone can show me that then I'm going to believe what the Bible clearly says.
Okay, I understand. But do me a favor and film the next healing for me, okay? And I'm not being crass or joking, I'm serious, I want to see it. It would increase my faith and the faith of millions...

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 06:01 PM
Sorry - I am unable to pull up 75 Scriptures to prove my points here. But I say this:

The article quoted Scripture, yes, but out of context and incorrectly, and in a very biased manner. This is something to be wary of - do not believe everything you read!

Read the entire book of Acts. Study it. This will give you a good idea of the truth re: this issue.

Back in the OT, men walked and talked with God. A supernatural relationship was commonplace, because God was/is a supernatural God!

MAN has left God - God hasn`t left man. When we turn back to Him, we will live again as the apostles did.

I know a lot of people disagree with this - but hey - a supernatural God is anything but "ordinary". ;) Why should our relationship be ordinary?

And PLEASE don`t bow out - you need to learn the truth here. God bless you!
Yeah, I better read Acts a few more times. :lol:

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 06:03 PM
Matt, do a Google search on "raised from the dead". Its just amazing what all is in there.

I am on pp 36 and still reading... :)

Re: the above post - why the sarcasm? :(

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 06:06 PM
Thank you for giving us your view. However - there is something that seems a bit inconsistent to me in this particular position.

When did the gifts go away?

When the last person who had an apostle lay hands on them died? - As you assert that ONLY an apostle laying hands on someone could impart the gift

When the completed bible was put together?

There is a span of several hundred years between these two things - however your argument seems to put emphasis on BOTH of them in regards to the assertion you make.

This DOES seem to be a rather large inconsistency in the argument itself.

Be Blessed!

The ability to transfer the gifts would have passed away when those who were able to do so passed away (the apostles). So when John passed, revelation was done, and no more need for the gifts.

The catholics argue that the Bible was incomplete until they put it together. But I don't think any "protestant" would agree with that. The Bible was complete when inspired men lifted their pen for the last time.

Do you agree with that part?

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 06:08 PM
Matt, do a Google search on "raised from the dead". Its just amazing what all is in there.

I am on pp 36 and still reading... :)

Re: the above post - why the sarcasm? :(
Why the sarcasm? I don't want to say, so as to seem to brag.

God bless!

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 06:10 PM
Actually what I saw was the writer calling Pentecostal folk "Christians" and tying us in with witchdoctors, cult groups, New Age healers, and a whole list of other negative types. That is about the silliest tactic that I see folks use... even on the board... you have seen it too and I'm figuring not real fond of it. Remember all the NOSAS threads where it never failed... "you are Catholic!" Just a simple way to try to tie your belief in with a whole bunch of negative stuff so as to paint you in that negative light.

I wouldn't much give the guy the time of day truth be told because of that sort of stuff.

PP, I am not recommending his attitudes, but rather his study of the issue. I would not label most "Pentecostals" in such a way. I don't agree with that tactic either.

The only reason I posted that article link was because I was called out in this thread. I've tried to avoid debate, I was really interested in finding out what those who believe in this have seen in their assemblies.

Athanasius
Feb 20th 2008, 06:11 PM
Okay, there you go. Those are two of my reasons. I really did not intend on getting into a big debate in this thread. I was simply asking some honest questions, but it appears some are getting offended by my questions. So perhaps I should bow out.

God bless!

Thanks for the response. I'll see if I can write up something in response.
I'm not offended by anything you've said. I'm aware of cessationist teaching, I'm just not aware of where they base it.

But a quick word in response to the article. I'm going to have to disagree with it in that I don't believe miracles involve the suspension of the natural order.

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 06:18 PM
Okay, I understand. But do me a favor and film the next healing for me, okay? And I'm not being crass or joking, I'm serious, I want to see it. It would increase my faith and the faith of millions...
No it wouldn't Matt and it would be treated just like that article treats it now. Psychosomatic... remission... or some mind power whatever... and worse I'd just be a witchdoctor or voodoo Meister.

And keep in mind... just because there are those that are full of nonsense that claim to be able to do something.. don't change reality in that something can be done by another that is for real.

Basically what you are doing is challenging the Spirit to prove something that Scripture says the Spirit does and you are basing it on Scripture full of implication that it means something that it doesn't clearly say. Example would be the 1 Corinthians 13 passage with the implication that somehow that is talking about the completed Scripture. To make that into the completed Scripture you are simply guessing because there is nothing in that text which would lead one to believe Paul was talking about Scripture. Matter of fact... if that is what Paul was talking about then the whole context of that part of his letter makes no sense at all.

obeytheword
Feb 20th 2008, 06:23 PM
The ability to transfer the gifts would have passed away when those who were able to do so passed away (the apostles). So when John passed, revelation was done, and no more need for the gifts.

The catholics argue that the Bible was incomplete until they put it together. But I don't think any "protestant" would agree with that. The Bible was complete when inspired men lifted their pen for the last time.

Do you agree with that part?

I personally believe that that which is perfect cannot be referring to the scripture. Not that the scripture isn't perfect :)

The position itself seems a bit flimsy - based on what you just asserted.

You believe signs were needed why? (in this particular vein)

1 - Because the new testament was not available?

2 - Or because it did not exist?

Your argument MUST assume #2 - and as such it simply does not make sense.

I say it cannot be #1 - because the entirety simply was not available to most people. Even for a church that HAD all the letters and Gospels - the average Joe most certainly did not have all of them available to him. In addition, many many churches continued to teach out of things that were later deemed "uninspired". This is simply not consistent with that which is perfect being actually delivered to us.

I say #2 does not make sense simply because if it was not available to Christians, then why would God take away that which was taking its place?


I heartily love your desire to dig into scripture and pull from it what is there (I share that desire myself) - please do not get me wrong. I simply believe that by limiting what you expect to see from the Holy Spirit like you do puts blinders there (as PP asserted above).


One final question. Is prophesy included in the list of things that are no more. (as in no more prophesy - that gift is only given by the Apostles)?

Be Blessed!

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 06:27 PM
Why the sarcasm? I don't want to say, so as to seem to brag.

God bless!

IMO, the NT sets the standard by which we should live today, 2000+ years later.

Nothing died then - it was all just beginning. :)

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 06:29 PM
PP, I am not recommending his attitudes, but rather his study of the issue. I would not label most "Pentecostals" in such a way. I don't agree with that tactic either.

The only reason I posted that article link was because I was called out in this thread. I've tried to avoid debate, I was really interested in finding out what those who believe in this have seen in their assemblies.Well I've seen a man born blind from birth that sees today although it has been a few years now and he'd be up there in age so not sure if he is still alive. That even happened here in the good old USA. Now his blindness wasn't mental... he was legally blind due to some birth defect and had the gray eyed thing going on. I know the person that prayed for the man wasn't a charlatan nor one that played the Popof nonsense. He's still a preacher although he's old as well and retired for the most part (as much as an old preacher can retire anyway but doing good for an 85 year old). I know the doctor actually used the words "it really is a miracle" and in fact that was what stopped him in his heathen tracks and he became a believer. And all of this happened in my lifetime and I've not been here since Paul and the boys walked the earth.

Why doesn't it happen more today? I could rattle off a number of reasons why I suspect it don't and won't ever be much of a thing any longer. But then you mentioned why not here and why does it only seem to happen in other countries... I figure that folks in this country have more faith in the doctor than they do God healing them. I also believe folks have more faith in the medicine cabinet than they do God healing them. So I don't suspect much can be done without faith... one of those Bible things. :lol: But nevertheless... none of that changes the fact that the Spirit gives the gifts. The Apostle's didn't give them. The Spirit does. Joe Schmucky can't give the gift to anyone... that is up to the Spirit explicitly. Man can't just turn it on and off with a whim... those that teach that are teaching nonsense. But nonsense aside... the Bible is true and no one can show me how they can get that passage in 1 Corinthians to mean "the canonized Scripture." It isn't there nor does it make sense at all.

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 06:34 PM
Actually what I saw was the writer calling Pentecostal folk "Christians" and tying us in with witchdoctors, cult groups, New Age healers, and a whole list of other negative types. That is about the silliest tactic that I see folks use... even on the board... you have seen it too and I'm figuring not real fond of it. Remember all the NOSAS threads where it never failed... "you are Catholic!" Just a simple way to try to tie your belief in with a whole bunch of negative stuff so as to paint you in that negative light.

I wouldn't much give the guy the time of day truth be told because of that sort of stuff.

Have you ever heard of Mel Montgomery? I just found his website a few days ago. It has a lot of good information about "pentecost" past, present, and future. It has lots of other items in it - the spiritual gifts, etc. I suggest that people look it up and read it - it is a good viewpoint, and very down-to-earth. Oh, he covers the prosperity preaxchers, too! ;)

VerticalReality
Feb 20th 2008, 06:35 PM
Why didn't Philip do it, then? Just read the context, and you will see that the express purpose for Peter and John coming was because the Spirit had yet to fall on any of the Christians at Samaria, despite the fact that Philip had been showing the miraculous signs.

Peter didn't "lay hands" on Cornelius, yet they all had the Holy Spirit come upon them. I'm sure Philip did what he felt needed to be done at the time. Scripture doesn't really go into it, which is why you are just assuming when you proclaim that it is a requirement for the apostles to lay on hands for them to receive the gifts of the Spirit.

Acts 8 sounds a lot to me like what's going on in the church today. There are a lot of people getting preached to and they are accepting the gospel just as the Samaritans did. However, many of them don't seem to be having a following experience of the Holy Spirit coming upon them. I think this passage shows that you can believe and still not have the power of the Holy Spirit upon you, which answers a lot for why folks continually try to disprove with added or twisted information that the gifts have passed away.

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 06:41 PM
No it wouldn't Matt and it would be treated just like that article treats it now. Psychosomatic... remission... or some mind power whatever... and worse I'd just be a witchdoctor or voodoo Meister.

And keep in mind... just because there are those that are full of nonsense that claim to be able to do something.. don't change reality in that something can be done by another that is for real.

Basically what you are doing is challenging the Spirit to prove something that Scripture says the Spirit does and you are basing it on Scripture full of implication that it means something that it doesn't clearly say. Example would be the 1 Corinthians 13 passage with the implication that somehow that is talking about the completed Scripture. To make that into the completed Scripture you are simply guessing because there is nothing in that text which would lead one to believe Paul was talking about Scripture. Matter of fact... if that is what Paul was talking about then the whole context of that part of his letter makes no sense at all.

We can study that passage together bit by bit anytime you want. :) And you know I say that as a loving friend, cause you know me.

And no, PP, I'm not "challenging the Spirit" What I am saying is that the miraculous healings in the New Testament were immediate and complete. No "recovery times," and lengthy hospital recoveries. And no possibilities of some other cure, like psychosomatic healing and the like. Men who were lame immediately sprang up and walked. Dead men got up immediately in front of hundreds of observers. That sort of thing.

God can do anything He wants. He tells us to pray for the sick, so I know He is involved in healing. But I don't think we see evidence of Him healing through the hands of men in our times, as He did in the first century.

VerticalReality
Feb 20th 2008, 06:42 PM
The ability to transfer the gifts would have passed away when those who were able to do so passed away (the apostles). So when John passed, revelation was done, and no more need for the gifts.

Which again begs the previous question of mine, which you did not answer . . .

Why did Paul state the following?



1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.


What is it that Paul is going to know? You admit that according to your view complete and perfect revelation had not come until John passed away. Obviously, John passed away well after Paul passed away, yet in verse 12 above Paul makes the statement that he is going to see the "that which is perfect". Paul was never around to see the completed Word of God, so how could this be what 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about?

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 06:51 PM
We can study that passage together bit by bit anytime you want. :) And you know I say that as a loving friend, cause you know me.

And no, PP, I'm not "challenging the Spirit" What I am saying is that the miraculous healings in the New Testament were immediate and complete. No "recovery times," and lengthy hospital recoveries. And no possibilities of some other cure, like psychosomatic healing and the like. Men who were lame immediately sprang up and walked. Dead men got up immediately in front of hundreds of observers. That sort of thing.

God can do anything He wants. He tells us to pray for the sick, so I know He is involved in healing. But I don't think we see evidence of Him healing through the hands of men in our times, as He did in the first century.I just told you of something that I saw with my own eyes... and I know that it wasn't the devil that did it. So hey... you've not seen it so I suspect that makes it much more tough to believe. But what of those that have seen bonafide miracles? Are we to count those men of God instead men of satan?

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 07:12 PM
Example would be the 1 Corinthians 13 passage with the implication that somehow that is talking about the completed Scripture. To make that into the completed Scripture you are simply guessing because there is nothing in that text which would lead one to believe Paul was talking about Scripture. Matter of fact... if that is what Paul was talking about then the whole context of that part of his letter makes no sense at all.

Well, I think it makes the context make much more sense. The gifts that Paul says will pass away are tongues, prophecies and knowledge. These three are all about spreading the Gospel, aren't they? He says that they "know in part" because of these things. But these will pass away when that which is perfect comes, ie. the perfect knowledge that will cause these things to not be needed anymore. This would in effect and very reasonably imply God's completed revelation.

I'm not asking anyone to agree. In fact, I did not start this particular line of discussion.

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 07:15 PM
Well, I think it makes the context make much more sense. The gifts that Paul says will pass away are tongues, prophecies and knowledge. These three are all about spreading the Gospel, aren't they? He says that they "know in part" because of these things. But these will pass away when that which is perfect comes, ie. the perfect knowledge that will cause these things to not be needed anymore. This would in effect and very reasonably imply God's completed revelation.

I'm not asking anyone to agree. In fact, I did not start this particular line of discussion.Doesn't Scripture tell us clearly what "perfect" is?

VerticalReality
Feb 20th 2008, 07:19 PM
Well, I think it makes the context make much more sense. The gifts that Paul says will pass away are tongues, prophecies and knowledge. These three are all about spreading the Gospel, aren't they? He says that they "know in part" because of these things. But these will pass away when that which is perfect comes, ie. the perfect knowledge that will cause these things to not be needed anymore. This would in effect and very reasonably imply God's completed revelation.

I'm not asking anyone to agree. In fact, I did not start this particular line of discussion.

Actually, in context, 1 Corinthians 13 doesn't make much sense to me if we state that the "that which is perfect" is the bible. Why? Because Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 13 that perfect and complete knowledge is what we would have and possess, not what we could potentially have access to through some other outward source. Yes, we have the bible, and yes, I believe it to be inerrant. However, that doesn't mean that we now have perfect knowledge. I think the fact that we are debating this right now proves that we do not have perfect knowledge.

And again, since Paul said that he would know and experience that perfect knowledge says all I need to know about whether or not 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about the bible. Paul never saw the bible.

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 07:24 PM
I personally believe that that which is perfect cannot be referring to the scripture.

Why do you say that?


You believe signs were needed why? (in this particular vein)

The Bible says the signs were needed to confirm the word that was being preached:

Mar 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Act 14:3 Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Heb 2:4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?


1 - Because the new testament was not available?

2 - Or because it did not exist?

Your argument MUST assume #2 - and as such it simply does not make sense.

No, that is not my argument at all. At that time the word was being confirmed by these signs and wonders. The apostles were still receiving inspiration, and continued until the death of John.

At John's death, the revelation of God's Holy Word was complete. Do you believe this, or do you believe scripture is still being given?


I heartily love your desire to dig into scripture and pull from it what is there (I share that desire myself) - please do not get me wrong. I simply believe that by limiting what you expect to see from the Holy Spirit like you do puts blinders there (as PP asserted above).

I only want to limit what the Spirit does to what the Bible shows that He does. :) To properly understand that, we have to look at the different dispensations of God's will.


One final question. Is prophesy included in the list of things that are no more. (as in no more prophesy - that gift is only given by the Apostles)?

"Prophesy" is used in different ways. Sometimes the word is used to refer to a miraculous teaching gift, sometimes to a non-miraculous gift.

The ability to hear the Word directly from God and preach it perfectly (as the apostles did, John 14:26; 16:13) is not operating today, in my understanding.

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 07:26 PM
IMO, the NT sets the standard by which we should live today, 2000+ years later.

Nothing died then - it was all just beginning. :)

I agree. The things that passed away were the imperfect gifts of tongues and prophecy. That's what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 13. Those things are imperfect.

God's word is a perfect standard, and it will never pass away. That's what we should focus on, instead of the gifts.

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 07:31 PM
Well I've seen a man born blind from birth that sees today although it has been a few years now and he'd be up there in age so not sure if he is still alive. That even happened here in the good old USA. Now his blindness wasn't mental... he was legally blind due to some birth defect and had the gray eyed thing going on. I know the person that prayed for the man wasn't a charlatan nor one that played the Popof nonsense. He's still a preacher although he's old as well and retired for the most part (as much as an old preacher can retire anyway but doing good for an 85 year old). I know the doctor actually used the words "it really is a miracle" and in fact that was what stopped him in his heathen tracks and he became a believer. And all of this happened in my lifetime and I've not been here since Paul and the boys walked the earth.

Was it an immediate healing? Instantaneously he could see again? Or did it happen over a period of time?

And what you are describing here does not sound like what the apostles did. What you seem to be talking about are Christians praying for one another for God to heal. Is that what happened?


But nonsense aside... the Bible is true and no one can show me how they can get that passage in 1 Corinthians to mean "the canonized Scripture." It isn't there nor does it make sense at all.

Well, we're not talking about "canonized scripture," as if someone had to write it down on paper for it to be the Bible. What we are talking about is the end of revelation.

PP, do you believe scripture is still being revealed today?

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 07:36 PM
Peter didn't "lay hands" on Cornelius, yet they all had the Holy Spirit come upon them.

I mentioned this earlier. Like the event in Acts 2 for the Jews, this event in Acts 10 was a sign that salvation had come to the Gentiles as well. We see this to be the case when we read Acts 11.

Neither of these events was repeated, or needed to be.


I'm sure Philip did what he felt needed to be done at the time. Scripture doesn't really go into it, which is why you are just assuming when you proclaim that it is a requirement for the apostles to lay on hands for them to receive the gifts of the Spirit.

Do you know of any place in scriptures where a non-apostle passed on a spiritual gift? If not, what does that tell you?


Acts 8 sounds a lot to me like what's going on in the church today. There are a lot of people getting preached to and they are accepting the gospel just as the Samaritans did. However, many of them don't seem to be having a following experience of the Holy Spirit coming upon them. I think this passage shows that you can believe and still not have the power of the Holy Spirit upon you, which answers a lot for why folks continually try to disprove with added or twisted information that the gifts have passed away.

This statement you make is offensive, and that is probably why the gifts passed away. Paul talked about how the Corinthians were holding over other people's heads about having gifts where others did not. Paul said this was wrong. In effect, this is what you are doing with the statement above. You seem to be accusing me of having no understanding or twisting scripture. And really, that's uncalled for.

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 07:37 PM
Was it an immediate healing? Instantaneously he could see again? Or did it happen over a period of time?

And what you are describing here does not sound like what the apostles did. What you seem to be talking about are Christians praying for one another for God to heal. Is that what happened?



Well, we're not talking about "canonized scripture," as if someone had to write it down on paper for it to be the Bible. What we are talking about is the end of revelation.

PP, do you believe scripture is still being revealed today?He came in blind and he left able to see. It happened in a moment. And no... the preachers laid his hands on the man and told his eyes to open. They did.

And there is nothing needed to the Scripture that isn't there already. That still isn't "perfection". Nor is that what the Bible describes as perfection. There is one thing that it does describe as perfect and Paul does it several times... what is that one thing?

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 07:40 PM
Okay guys, I'm done. I can see that this is turning in a direction I do not want to go, so I'm going to step on out.

God bless you all, and may His peace be upon you and yours.

VerticalReality
Feb 20th 2008, 07:42 PM
I agree. The things that passed away were the imperfect gifts of tongues and prophecy. That's what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 13. Those things are imperfect.

I disagree. I believe what Paul is calling imperfect in 1 Corinthians 13 is us . . . which is why he goes on to talk about how we see in a mirror dimly. When I look in the mirror I do not see prophecy or tongues or a bible. I see myself. However, the reason I see in the mirror dimly is because in this body I'm not my true self. My true self is the spirit man which resides in fullness in the heavenlies seated with our Savior Christ Jesus. So, we see in a mirror dimly because the spirit and the flesh are contrary to one another, and I'm currently in a struggle to crucify what's of this world and walk by the Spirit. When I die and I'm no longer hindered by this flesh, then I will know fully. Then I will be perfected and complete. Then I will know just as I also am known as Paul makes clear. The reason Paul could say that he would "know" is because he knew that one day he would no longer be in this world. Paul wasn't talking about completed revelation that wouldn't come about until John died. He was talking about his perfection.

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 07:42 PM
Okay guys, I'm done. I can see that this is turning in a direction I do not want to go, so I'm going to step on out.

God bless you all, and may His peace be upon you and yours.
NO WAY MAN! The discussion was finally getting good! Don't be a weenie! :lol: It is a good discussion and going well.

Matt14
Feb 20th 2008, 07:45 PM
NO WAY MAN! The discussion was finally getting good! Don't be a weenie! :lol: It is a good discussion and going well.
No, it's not going well. We can talk about this privately, but I've got too much invested in the Lord's ministry to get bogged down and listen to people tell me I have no understanding and want to "twist scripture."

Thanks, it was fun.

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 07:47 PM
Okay Matt... your call there.

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 07:50 PM
I agree. The things that passed away were the imperfect gifts of tongues and prophecy. That's what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 13. Those things are imperfect.

God's word is a perfect standard, and it will never pass away. That's what we should focus on, instead of the gifts.

Why do you think God would give imperfect gifts? And why would He take them back???

Jesus said, I go away, but another One will come (misquote mine - sorry). He didn`t say He`ll come for a minute, or a hundred years - He said He will come and be with us, and dwell in us...

The Holy Spirit is here, now, for those of us who allow Him in. He is SUPERNATURAL - He performs the signs, wonders, miracles, healings, etc. - all of it is His Work. Its ludicrous to even expect a "natural" relationship with this extraordinary God we serve.

WE have work to do - the Bible says this. How can we do this work in ourselves? We can`t. The Holy Spirit is HERE and NOW for us - there are supernatural manifestations of His power everywhere.

I told you already - God means us to live as Peter and Paul and the rest of the apostles did - to walk with Him, to talk with Him, to experience His wonders...

We ARE healed - through the power of the Holy Spirit. He is here today, today, today.

VerticalReality
Feb 20th 2008, 07:50 PM
Do you know of any place in scriptures where a non-apostle passed on a spiritual gift? If not, what does that tell you?

I don't know of anywhere where an apostle passed on a gift period. 1 Corinthians 12 says that the gifts are as the Spirit wills . . . not as the apostles will.


This statement you make is offensive, and that is probably why the gifts passed away. Paul talked about how the Corinthians were holding over other people's heads about having gifts where others did not.

I wasn't trying to offend, nor was I trying to hold anything over anyone's head. I'm simply stating what I see in Scripture, and there was a follow up event to the Samaritans believing. Therefore, I don't view this as you being offended by me. I'm just discussing what's in the Word.


In effect, this is what you are doing with the statement above. You seem to be accusing me of having no understanding or twisting scripture. And really, that's uncalled for.

Okay. You can take it that way if you like, but it doesn't really change anything. I'm discussing what the Scriptures say, and you cannot make the claim biblically that gifts were passed by the apostles.

ProjectPeter
Feb 20th 2008, 07:59 PM
Let me state for the record here folks. Matt is someone that I have utmost respect for. On most issues he and I would totally agree... on this one we do not. But he's a man of God and I'll stand beside him on that. He is one of the few people that I would trust with no doubt or hesitation. So while we disagree... I love him and I'd tackle hell with a bucket of water if he asked me to. So disagree with him but do it respectfully. He is a man of God. And menJesus... Matt is a pastor and studies Acts and the rest of Scripture probably more than most. Not counting me that is. ;) Had to say that Matt because I love ya! :lol:

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 08:04 PM
Okay guys, I'm done. I can see that this is turning in a direction I do not want to go, so I'm going to step on out.

God bless you all, and may His peace be upon you and yours.

Matt, ProjectPeter knows what he`s about here, and this is a truth you - and no doubt many others - need to learn.

I will step out. I do hope you come back. This is so important for us all to know, as christians.

God bless you.

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 08:10 PM
Let me state for the record here folks. Matt is someone that I have utmost respect for. On most issues he and I would totally agree... on this one we do not. But he's a man of God and I'll stand beside him on that. He is one of the few people that I would trust with no doubt or hesitation. So while we disagree... I love him and I'd tackle hell with a bucket of water if he asked me to. So disagree with him but do it respectfully. He is a man of God. And menJesus... Matt is a pastor and studies Acts and the rest of Scripture probably more than most. Not counting me that is. ;) Had to say that Matt because I love ya! :lol:

Oh, ProjectPeter, I do hope he didn`t leave because of me! I was trying to explain things in my own usual, scatterbrained way... :( And I meant no disrespect whatsoever - I could see that he was trying to learn...

I just now posted and said I`d step out and let him continue with you. What you are teaching here is SO important, and I do respect you for that.

I hope he comes back. Putting this out here is so good for many others, also... :(

Whispering Grace
Feb 20th 2008, 08:45 PM
Okay, I understand. But do me a favor and film the next healing for me, okay? And I'm not being crass or joking, I'm serious, I want to see it. It would increase my faith and the faith of millions...


Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

Slug1
Feb 20th 2008, 09:21 PM
Why doesn't it happen more today? I could rattle off a number of reasons why I suspect it don't and won't ever be much of a thing any longer. But then you mentioned why not here and why does it only seem to happen in other countries... I figure that folks in this country have more faith in the doctor than they do God healing them. I also believe folks have more faith in the medicine cabinet than they do God healing them. So I don't suspect much can be done without faith... one of those Bible things. :lol: But nevertheless... none of that changes the fact that the Spirit gives the gifts. The Apostle's didn't give them. The Spirit does.

This is basically how I feel based on my personal experience. I doubted based on crazy stuff I saw but then I began to attend a church that I was led to and found that it was very Bible based compared to what I've attended in the past. Based on what I've experienced, now I feel as you do. IMO the reason miracles and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit aren't widespread in the US are cause many people who are the ones with the faith to do it have disected the Bible down to the letter by letter level and miss the meaning (Spirit) of the Word. Thus no Gifts for such Christians.

menJesus
Feb 20th 2008, 09:22 PM
Oh, dear. It doesn`t look as though he`s coming back...mybad...


:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

godsgirl
Feb 20th 2008, 09:25 PM
Dear friends:

The below is from channel 7, WSVN-TV, in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. Jesus is still in the miracle business!
__________________________________________________ _______

http://www1.wsvn.com/features/articl...report/MI75423

Raised From The Dead
February 1, 2008
Reported by: Louis Aguirre

Is it a medical mystery or a miracle? A South Florida man pronounced dead from a massive heart attack and then brought back to life. His doctor says the man was raised from the dead by a simple prayer. Seven's Louis Aguirre has the story.

WSVN -- Dr. Chauncey Crandall isn't your usual doctor. The world-renowned cardiologist is a man of medicine and science, but he's also a man of faith.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "If you come in with a problem into our service, we are definitely going to treat you with conventional medicine, but we are going to believe it too. We are going to attack it with conventional medicine, and we are going to attack it with prayer."

He calls himself the Christian physician because he prays with each heart patient he sees at his Palm Beach practice. The difference, he says, is dramatic.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "The reason I pray for people is because I found, early in my trained practice, that there were miracles, unexplained healings."

But even his strong faith could not prepare him for what would happen the day Jeff Markin walked into the Palm Beach Gardens emergency room.

Jeff Markin: "I drove to the Garden's Hospital, went in, took out my wallet and fell on the floor with a massive heart attack."

For 40 minutes doctors and nurses in the ER tried to revive him. When they couldn't get his heart started again they called for Dr. Crandall, who was doing rounds in the hospital at the time.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "As I entered the ER it was like a war zone. Here was this lifeless body on a stretcher."

The doctor couldn't do anything and could only confirm what everyone already knew, Jeff was dead. He had gone almost an hour without a heartbeat, and his body was starting to decompose.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "His face, his arms, his legs were pitch black with death. I said, 'Let's just call the code, let's end it because there's no life left.'"

As Dr. Crandall turned to leave, he says he got another call this time, a call from God to pray.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "A voice told me to turn around and pray for that man. I looked down at the body, and I said, 'Lord, what can I pray for this man? He's gone.' All of a sudden these words came out, 'Father, I cry out for this man's soul, if he does not know, you raise him from the dead.'"

Despite protests from doctors and nurses who were preparing Jeff's body for the morgue, doctor Crandall insisted they shock him one more time.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "So that doctor came over with those paddles and blasted that man and, all of a sudden, instantly a perfect heartbeat came up on the monitor. The stomach started moving, the chest started moving. This man started breathing on his own, and I said, 'This man has been prayed for, he has been brought back from the dead by prayer in the name of Jesus.'"

Louis Aguirre: "So where was Jeff during all of this? He believes he left his body and crossed over to the after life."

Jeff Markin: "I was actually standing in the back of the funeral home, and I came to realize that this was my funeral.

But, in the middle of sitting alone in darkness, Jeff says a figure suddenly appeared to him.

Jeff Markin: "There was a figure that identified himself as Bob, and he was going to make sure that everything was going to be OK. I'm figuring that was my guardian angel. At that time, a very peaceful feeling and very relaxed feeling came over me, and then he said he had to go and, the next thing I know, I woke up in my daughter's arms."

He woke up to a second chance, one that can't be explained by medicine or science. As Dr. Crandall puts it, the only answer is divine intervention.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "You are speaking to a scientist, a cardiologist, someone who loves medicine. I've never, ever seen this. There are always people that do not believe these events, and I will just tell them that it did happen. It was a real story, a real life that was restored."

Jeff wasn't exactly a believer before that day. He didn't regularly attend church or read the Bible, but this experience has made him believe there is a higher purpose for his life.

Jeff Markin: "I feel like maybe I am supposed to be a messenger. I want to get the right message across that miracles do happen."

A miracle that brought him life after death.

Jeff Markin: "I'm so happy I have a second chance."

Louis Aguirre: "Jeff says he is now attending church mainly because he wants to figure out why he was chosen for a second chance at life."

ProjectPeter
Feb 21st 2008, 01:11 PM
Oh, dear. It doesn`t look as though he`s coming back...mybad...


:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
Oh he'll be back. Matt is just bowing out of this particular discussion because it was getting a bit too personal for him. Don't sweat it. He's been in hotter discussion than this in the past. You're new here but he was once upon a time an admin on the board. But with his being a pastor as well as his finishing up his doctorate... time didn't permit. I am the one that took his spot in that position.

menJesus
Feb 21st 2008, 01:20 PM
Oh, I am so glad to hear all that! I don`t participate in most of the debates, but I read them all, and I learn LOADS of information from them.

I read an article yesterday that said one never heard of tongues being spoken in the bowling alley or the bar - only in church - so how could they ever be demonic in nature?

What are your thoughts on this? Is there such a thing as demonic tongues, or not?

John Emery
Feb 21st 2008, 02:11 PM
Satan is very smart and very deceiving. I remember as a small child (and my Mom reminds me of it 45 years later) of a time when I was playing in the back yard. The neighbors were Jewish and survivors of a Nazi concentration camp and as such had received the mark of the camp, the tattoos. One day they were looking very directly at me and called me over to the fence and showed me the tattoo. Something happended when I saw that tattoo and I could talk but I had no idea what I was saying. It was like an automatic talk and I had no idea what it meant. Later I saw them talking to Mom and she about washed my mouth out with soap. I said the most foulest things to the neighbors.

I think I was speaking in tonges, I didn't know better being five at the time. If I was I'm sure Satan was behind it because I'm sure God would not have allowed anything like that to be said to someone Jewish.

Just an experience of mine and I was very young at the time. I can still remember seeing the tattoos and how they set me off to talk. I think the neighbors recognized something in me and trigered the whole deal on purpose. ??? They paid a lot of attention to me afterward and were never mad at what I said. Go figure. Thats forgiveness from someone who went throgh hell.

I think Satan can trick us and use us, but we choose to love the Lord.

ProjectPeter
Feb 21st 2008, 02:52 PM
Satan is very smart and very deceiving. I remember as a small child (and my Mom reminds me of it 45 years later) of a time when I was playing in the back yard. The neighbors were Jewish and survivors of a Nazi concentration camp and as such had received the mark of the camp, the tattoos. One day they were looking very directly at me and called me over to the fence and showed me the tattoo. Something happended when I saw that tattoo and I could talk but I had no idea what I was saying. It was like an automatic talk and I had no idea what it meant. Later I saw them talking to Mom and she about washed my mouth out with soap. I said the most foulest things to the neighbors.

I think I was speaking in tonges, I didn't know better being five at the time. If I was I'm sure Satan was behind it because I'm sure God would not have allowed anything like that to be said to someone Jewish.

Just an experience of mine and I was very young at the time. I can still remember seeing the tattoos and how they set me off to talk. I think the neighbors recognized something in me and trigered the whole deal on purpose. ??? They paid a lot of attention to me afterward and were never mad at what I said. Go figure. Thats forgiveness from someone who went throgh hell.

I think Satan can trick us and use us, but we choose to love the Lord.
Um... don't you think that is like a far stretch?

menJesus
Feb 21st 2008, 03:22 PM
Satan is very smart and very deceiving. I remember as a small child (and my Mom reminds me of it 45 years later) of a time when I was playing in the back yard. The neighbors were Jewish and survivors of a Nazi concentration camp and as such had received the mark of the camp, the tattoos. One day they were looking very directly at me and called me over to the fence and showed me the tattoo. Something happended when I saw that tattoo and I could talk but I had no idea what I was saying. It was like an automatic talk and I had no idea what it meant. Later I saw them talking to Mom and she about washed my mouth out with soap. I said the most foulest things to the neighbors.

I think I was speaking in tonges, I didn't know better being five at the time. If I was I'm sure Satan was behind it because I'm sure God would not have allowed anything like that to be said to someone Jewish.

Just an experience of mine and I was very young at the time. I can still remember seeing the tattoos and how they set me off to talk. I think the neighbors recognized something in me and trigered the whole deal on purpose. ??? They paid a lot of attention to me afterward and were never mad at what I said. Go figure. Thats forgiveness from someone who went throgh hell.

I think Satan can trick us and use us, but we choose to love the Lord.

If you was speaking in tongues, how did they know what you said? You said it was foul...how did you know what you said? Trying to understand this here... :(

obeytheword
Feb 21st 2008, 03:50 PM
Satan is very smart and very deceiving. I remember as a small child (and my Mom reminds me of it 45 years later) of a time when I was playing in the back yard. The neighbors were Jewish and survivors of a Nazi concentration camp and as such had received the mark of the camp, the tattoos. One day they were looking very directly at me and called me over to the fence and showed me the tattoo. Something happended when I saw that tattoo and I could talk but I had no idea what I was saying. It was like an automatic talk and I had no idea what it meant. Later I saw them talking to Mom and she about washed my mouth out with soap. I said the most foulest things to the neighbors.

I think I was speaking in tonges, I didn't know better being five at the time. If I was I'm sure Satan was behind it because I'm sure God would not have allowed anything like that to be said to someone Jewish.

Just an experience of mine and I was very young at the time. I can still remember seeing the tattoos and how they set me off to talk. I think the neighbors recognized something in me and trigered the whole deal on purpose. ??? They paid a lot of attention to me afterward and were never mad at what I said. Go figure. Thats forgiveness from someone who went throgh hell.

I think Satan can trick us and use us, but we choose to love the Lord.

I think it could very possibly have been something in tongues - but what?

Maybe they understood none of it, but were offended because they did not want to be around that "crazy stuff"

Maybe they heard you telling them that they needed to get saved and stop disbelieving in Jesus. I could imagine that would make em rather mad ;)

Anyway - I believe Satan CAN mimic tongues - He certainly was doing it in Corinth to one degree or another. Even if not in the churches, in the pagan temples, etc. I would not think this was an example of it unless you know WHAT they accused you of saying.

Be Blessed!

menJesus
Feb 21st 2008, 03:53 PM
obeytheword, can you give the Scripture reference to that? Thanks.

obeytheword
Feb 21st 2008, 04:50 PM
obeytheword, can you give the Scripture reference to that? Thanks.

For the counterfeit being present in Corinth? I do not have scripture references, but I have read a decent amount about the cultural situation in Corinth and surrounding areas as well. Most pagan worship included many things, such as sexual acts, etc. Speaking in tongues is one of those things. It was as I understand part of reaching a point of ecstacy - in which they would essentially loose control of their bodies - and a type of speaking in tongues was one of the aspects of this.

Anyway - it was always chaotic and certainly without order. It is very likely that Paul was addressing the church from the perspective that they were not to "do" things like the pagans did them, and any time there would be speaking in tongues it must be interpreted so that the CHURCH could be edified, and must be done in an orderly fashion.

Someone may be able to get a bit more specific - has honestly been a while since I have read anything too specific on it.

Be Blessed!

godsgirl
Feb 21st 2008, 09:50 PM
I don't think any Christian has anything to worry about as far as "trick" tongues are concerned-Jesus said that we didn't need to worry about receiving a stone from our Father in heaven when we ask for bread.

I for one, am glad that the Lord has shown me the truth in His Word concerning the fact that He wants us all to be baptised in the Holy Spirit and when we do we can speak in tongues as the Spirit enables us.

I aint afraid of no stinkin devil.

No one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed.

menJesus
Feb 21st 2008, 09:57 PM
Amen, Godsgirl! I find it so terribly, utterly sad that fear of fakery keeps so many from receiving the gifts of the Lord.

;) I am SO thankful I was too stupid to doubt/fear anything, when I first came to God! ;)

Owo_pelz
Apr 9th 2018, 01:48 PM
At what point did Tongues cease to be of God, and now all we have is the counterfeit?And the quote in revelations - is in regards to the book of revelations - not the entire scripture. Not that I am saying it is ok to add to any part of the bible, just wanted to point out you are using the verse far out of context by applying it to the entire scripture.Be Blessed!This same quote in revelations was repeated in the book of Deuteronomy 4:2 and Proverbs 30:6. So for such to be repeated in 2 other verses, it covers the entire book. Also, the gift of tongues ceased the moment the last apostle died I.e. John. All what is being said today is nothing but gibberish

ChangedByHim
Apr 9th 2018, 03:35 PM
This same quote in revelations was repeated in the book of Deuteronomy 4:2 and Proverbs 30:6. So for such to be repeated in 2 other verses, it covers the entire book. Also, the gift of tongues ceased the moment the last apostle died I.e. John. All what is being said today is nothing but gibberish

I thank God for my 'gibberish'

randyk
Apr 9th 2018, 04:16 PM
I thank God for my 'gibberish'

I got into Pentecostalism back in early 1971, and they, ie the Pentecostals, *made me* speak in tongues. They laid their hands on me, and tried to all speak tongues around me, to make me join them. Well, I did join them. And I have serious doubts about it being real. We can talk gibberish, if we want!

That very day I went into a back room and prayed to God, asking God about how real all this was. As I was praying, a greater eloquence *in English* fell upon me. I don't remember if I used a lot of adjectives or what, but I remember the words flowing out of me like water. My thought was, if I didn't really have the gift of tongues, I certainly had the gift of anointed English! ;)

Many years later I had grown tired of the "prayer language" thing. It seemed so artificial, and seemed contrary to what Paul said rhetorically, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer, obviously, was no! So what was all this "prayer language" stuff? Was it just like my Pentecostal "tongues" experience years before?

As I prayed, walking down the street, I grew impatient and almost flippant, crying out to God, "If there is genuine tongues, give me a sign from heaven?" I thought that if God cared so little about tongues, He simply wouldn't show a sign at all. And I probably thought He wouldn't answer me anyway.

But I revised the prayer a little, to show more respect. I asked, "Okay, God, if you really want me to believe in tongues, give me a sign *on the earth!*" At that precise second, someone shot off a firework high above the trees, and it soared back to earth. I had my sign both in heaven and on earth!

Well, I'm not here to tell you I believe in the Pentecostal "prayer language"--I don't. It is against Paul's statement regarding gifts, that not all have all gifts, that the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills. But I certainly believe tongues is for today. It's just that I would discern who truly has that gift, and who has been "made" to exercise gibberish, aka the "prayer language."

Slug1
Apr 9th 2018, 04:42 PM
I thank God for my 'gibberish'Oh, this brings a huge smile to my face :)

God bless you brother in the fight against the wiles of the devil when they deny God's power.

keck553
Apr 9th 2018, 08:43 PM
..... the gift of tongues ceased the moment the last apostle died I.e. John. All what is being said today is nothing but gibberish

Brother, allow God to work through His servants to settle your unbelief.

Had I disregarded Ken (Slug 1) because of his personal experience with a spiritual gift that I had a bad experience with, I would have slammed a door shut in God's Face. So I thank God for Ken; for his obedience to God has been a blessing to me.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2018, 09:37 PM
Brother, allow God to work through His servants to settle your unbelief.

Had I disregarded Ken (Slug 1) because of his personal experience with a spiritual gift that I had a bad experience with, I would have slammed a door shut in God's Face. So I thank God for Ken; for his obedience to God has been a blessing to me.Brother, I'm crying... all I can say is, God is Good!

hawkman
Apr 10th 2018, 02:17 AM
This same quote in revelations was repeated in the book of Deuteronomy 4:2 and Proverbs 30:6. So for such to be repeated in 2 other verses, it covers the entire book. Also, the gift of tongues ceased the moment the last apostle died I.e. John. All what is being said today is nothing but gibberish

When I pray in tongues it does not sound like gibberish . I have been mightily touched by God when I have been praying in this fashion .

ChangedByHim
Apr 10th 2018, 02:37 AM
I got into Pentecostalism back in early 1971, and they, ie the Pentecostals, *made me* speak in tongues. They laid their hands on me, and tried to all speak tongues around me, to make me join them. Well, I did join them. And I have serious doubts about it being real. We can talk gibberish, if we want!

That very day I went into a back room and prayed to God, asking God about how real all this was. As I was praying, a greater eloquence *in English* fell upon me. I don't remember if I used a lot of adjectives or what, but I remember the words flowing out of me like water. My thought was, if I didn't really have the gift of tongues, I certainly had the gift of anointed English! ;)

Many years later I had grown tired of the "prayer language" thing. It seemed so artificial, and seemed contrary to what Paul said rhetorically, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer, obviously, was no! So what was all this "prayer language" stuff? Was it just like my Pentecostal "tongues" experience years before?

As I prayed, walking down the street, I grew impatient and almost flippant, crying out to God, "If there is genuine tongues, give me a sign from heaven?" I thought that if God cared so little about tongues, He simply wouldn't show a sign at all. And I probably thought He wouldn't answer me anyway.

But I revised the prayer a little, to show more respect. I asked, "Okay, God, if you really want me to believe in tongues, give me a sign *on the earth!*" At that precise second, someone shot off a firework high above the trees, and it soared back to earth. I had my sign both in heaven and on earth!

Well, I'm not here to tell you I believe in the Pentecostal "prayer language"--I don't. It is against Paul's statement regarding gifts, that not all have all gifts, that the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills. But I certainly believe tongues is for today. It's just that I would discern who truly has that gift, and who has been "made" to exercise gibberish, aka the "prayer language."
Sounds like you’re basing your beliefs off of personal experience. I had no one coaching me. In fact I was a new convert reading the Bible and saw the gift mentioned and prayed for it. I received and was the first person I ever heard speak in tongues. I had never even heard of such a thing until I read about it. That was 34 years ago and I’ve spoken in tongues every day since. Like all gifts, God doesn’t force them on anyone.

jesusinmylife
Apr 10th 2018, 03:33 AM
This same quote in revelations was repeated in the book of Deuteronomy 4:2 and Proverbs 30:6. So for such to be repeated in 2 other verses, it covers the entire book. Also, the gift of tongues ceased the moment the last apostle died I.e. John. All what is being said today is nothing but gibberish

What's revelations? A book written before Deuteronomy?
And thanks for resurrecting a 10 year old thread to discuss "gibberish".

ewq1938
Apr 10th 2018, 04:53 AM
All what is being said today is nothing but gibberish

For the most part, yes...mostly well meaning but still so badly unscriptural and wrong.

grams
Apr 10th 2018, 01:54 PM
Has any one thought maybe ?, this could just mean at times some one speaking in a different languish ?

Then you are ????????

randyk
Apr 10th 2018, 02:05 PM
Sounds like you’re basing your beliefs off of personal experience. I had no one coaching me. In fact I was a new convert reading the Bible and saw the gift mentioned and prayed for it. I received and was the first person I ever heard speak in tongues. I had never even heard of such a thing until I read about it. That was 34 years ago and I’ve spoken in tongues every day since. Like all gifts, God doesn’t force them on anyone.

Oh, I'm certainly not discarding *genuine tongues!* I've heard many testimonies of genuine tongues! People have spoken in tongues--a language they did not know--and others recognized the language and understood it. I've heard that story *many times!*

Certainly some may have a "prayer language." I'm referring to the Pentecostal doctrine which says that in order to be properly Baptized in the Spirit one must speak in tongues, and have his own prayer language. I don't believe that. It certainly isn't true for me. And Paul seemed to imply that it isn't true that all Christians are supposed to exercise tongues. The Holy Spirit selects who has what spiritual gifts. Sorry I gave the impression I was discounting *your gift!*

Brendac
Aug 9th 2018, 06:39 AM
1 Cor 14:18, 19
…18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church, I would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

the Greek for tongue is γλώσσῃ (glōssē) which refers to an unknown tongue.

However, if we go back to Acts 2:5, 6
…5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language.

This refers to an official language that was unknown to the disciples.

After the Tower of Babel, in Gen 11, people began to speak in other languages (could perhaps also be referred to as "other tongues") and they could not understand one another.

Many of the Jews had been living in captivity in Babylon for so long and many were born in captivity and they had to speak the language of their captives - Chaldean, Aramaic etc. So there was a necessity for the priests who would read the Scriptures in Hebrew, but then had to translate into the languages that the Jews were speaking at that time in Babylon, in order for them to understand. Remember, they were captive in Babylon for 70 years, so there were children who were raised only knowing the languages spoken in Babylon and did not know or understand Hebrew.

So, the tongues spoken of in Acts 2, refers to the fact that people heard the disciples speaking in each one's language - languages that the disciples did not know, but the Spirit gave them the utterance to speak in Aramaic, Chaldean and other languages. This is a gift of the Spirit and not necessarily an evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Paul said he would rather speak with understanding that in tongues in the church. Tongues is a sign to the unbeliever. That being the case, if one speaks in tongues and the unbeliever thinks that everyone has gone crazy because they are babbling, then that is no sign to the unbeliever. The unbeliever would have to understand what the person is saying. So if you are in church and the Holy Spirit gives you a tongue for someone in the congregation, that person would then bring a tongue perhaps in Greek, Portuguese, Mandarin or such like for a person who is there to know that God is speaking directly to them.
Also, when we speak in tongues, we are edifying ourselves, because no one understands us, but God does - 1 Cor 14:2-4

I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and I do pray in tongues and I found at one stage my prayer time was being taken up with praying in tongues and I also found that I was becoming a lazy prayer because when I didn't know what to pray, I simply resorted to praying in tongues.

At a stage I was challenged, as I found myself beginning to pray in tongues as the weirdest of times and possibly very inopportune times and they came out of my mouth, outside of my will or outside of my deciding to pray in tongues - not sure if I am being very clear here. When I realised this, I prayed and ask God to show me what was going on and it was then I was challenged to start praying only in English.

I was at an absolute loss and didn't really know how to pray.

So what I am saying is that there is a place for tongues in the privacy of our homes, however, don't allow yourself to become a lazy prayer because it is easy to switch to tongues.

the other thing is, in church, we need to be praying in a language everyone can understand, or how else will those around you be able to stand in agreement with you?

If you are in worship in a church and your spirit is communicating with God privately, it is a time where, when we are overwhelmed and at a loss for words, we can then resort to tongues and pour our hearts out to God.

So is tongues the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit? No, it isn't. The fruit of the Spirit is the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit. Tongues is the Holy Spirit helping us to pray when we don't know what to pray.

Just to add, when we pray in our own home language, we can also be praying in the Spirit as the Holy Spirit begins to reveal things to us and shows us what to pray. So praying in the Spirit is not limited to tongues.

Read the books the Kneeling Christian and such books - you will find out how men of old prayed powerfully in the Spirit, in their own home languages.

Let us be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and let us pray without ceasing.

PS. Speaking with new tongues - could this perhaps refer to speaking differently? Perhaps our new tongue is speaking the Word of God rather than focusing on ME and my problems, cursing, swearing and such like. We now speak new tongues - purity?

randyk
Aug 9th 2018, 06:59 AM
1 Cor 14:18, 19
…18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church, I would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

the Greek for tongue is γλώσσῃ (glōssē) which refers to an unknown tongue.

However, if we go back to Acts 2:5, 6
…5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language.

This refers to an official language that was unknown to the disciples.

After the Tower of Babel, in Gen 11, people began to speak in other languages (could perhaps also be referred to as "other tongues") and they could not understand one another.

Many of the Jews had been living in captivity in Babylon for so long and many were born in captivity and they had to speak the language of their captives - Chaldean, Aramaic etc. So there was a necessity for the priests who would read the Scriptures in Hebrew, but then had to translate into the languages that the Jews were speaking at that time in Babylon, in order for them to understand. Remember, they were captive in Babylon for 70 years, so there were children who were raised only knowing the languages spoken in Babylon and did not know or understand Hebrew.

So, the tongues spoken of in Acts 2, refers to the fact that people heard the disciples speaking in each one's language - languages that the disciples did not know, but the Spirit gave them the utterance to speak in Aramaic, Chaldean and other languages. This is a gift of the Spirit and not necessarily an evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Paul said he would rather speak with understanding that in tongues in the church. Tongues is a sign to the unbeliever. That being the case, if one speaks in tongues and the unbeliever thinks that everyone has gone crazy because they are babbling, then that is no sign to the unbeliever. The unbeliever would have to understand what the person is saying. So if you are in church and the Holy Spirit gives you a tongue for someone in the congregation, that person would then bring a tongue perhaps in Greek, Portuguese, Mandarin or such like for a person who is there to know that God is speaking directly to them.
Also, when we speak in tongues, we are edifying ourselves, because no one understands us, but God does - 1 Cor 14:2-4

I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and I do pray in tongues and I found at one stage my prayer time was being taken up with praying in tongues and I also found that I was becoming a lazy prayer because when I didn't know what to pray, I simply resorted to praying in tongues.

At a stage I was challenged, as I found myself beginning to pray in tongues as the weirdest of times and possibly very inopportune times and they came out of my mouth, outside of my will or outside of my deciding to pray in tongues - not sure if I am being very clear here. When I realised this, I prayed and ask God to show me what was going on and it was then I was challenged to start praying only in English.

I was at an absolute loss and didn't really know how to pray.

So what I am saying is that there is a place for tongues in the privacy of our homes, however, don't allow yourself to become a lazy prayer because it is easy to switch to tongues.

the other thing is, in church, we need to be praying in a language everyone can understand, or how else will those around you be able to stand in agreement with you?

If you are in worship in a church and your spirit is communicating with God privately, it is a time where, when we are overwhelmed and at a loss for words, we can then resort to tongues and pour our hearts out to God.

So is tongues the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit? No, it isn't. The fruit of the Spirit is the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit. Tongues is the Holy Spirit helping us to pray when we don't know what to pray.

Just to add, when we pray in our own home language, we can also be praying in the Spirit as the Holy Spirit begins to reveal things to us and shows us what to pray. So praying in the Spirit is not limited to tongues.

Read the books the Kneeling Christian and such books - you will find out how men of old prayed powerfully in the Spirit, in their own home languages.

Let us be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and let us pray without ceasing.

PS. Speaking with new tongues - could this perhaps refer to speaking differently? Perhaps our new tongue is speaking the Word of God rather than focusing on ME and my problems, cursing, swearing and such like. We now speak new tongues - purity?

My thought is that tongues is indeed a sign of being filled with the Spirit. But it is only one of many signs. All may be given to do it at a particular time, but for the most part, God wants individuals to focus on particular gifts. Some focus on prophecy, and others focus on administration. Different gifts, and different individuals. One individual may have several gifts to focus upon, depending on his ministry position.

People in the OT did not have to speak in tongues in order to be called into the ministry of a prophet. I'm not aware of any prophet that had to speak in tongues to qualify as one led by the Spirit?

As for speaking in tongues, it is a sign for unbelievers, because unbelievers do not want to hear the truth. That's why God sent Israel into foreign lands, because they did not want to hear their own prophets.

But tongues are for believers if they are translated, or interpreted. This would be like Daniel interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream, or Joseph interpreting the dreams of Pharoah's servants. God wishes to speak to His people intelligibly, and not just do supernatural tricks for them.

The purpose of the gifts of the Spirit is to build up believers. When they respond to God's intelligible word to them, they are able to draw upon the power and guidance of God for life and ministry. God wants us to walk in a supernatural relationship with Himself, with real communication of God's truth to our hearts and minds.

Tongues simply opens up the door for our doubting hearts to meet a supernatural God. If we pray, and if we obey, we will come to understand what He is actually wanting to say to us. He wants to first of all meet with us. And secondly, He wants to communicate with us.

Brendac
Aug 9th 2018, 09:18 AM
My thought is that tongues is indeed a sign of being filled with the Spirit. But it is only one of many signs. All may be given to do it at a particular time, but for the most part, God wants individuals to focus on particular gifts. Some focus on prophecy, and others focus on administration. Different gifts, and different individuals. One individual may have several gifts to focus upon, depending on his ministry position.

People in the OT did not have to speak in tongues in order to be called into the ministry of a prophet. I'm not aware of any prophet that had to speak in tongues to qualify as one led by the Spirit?

As for speaking in tongues, it is a sign for unbelievers, because unbelievers do not want to hear the truth. That's why God sent Israel into foreign lands, because they did not want to hear their own prophets.

But tongues are for believers if they are translated, or interpreted. This would be like Daniel interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream, or Joseph interpreting the dreams of Pharoah's servants. God wishes to speak to His people intelligibly, and not just do supernatural tricks for them.

The purpose of the gifts of the Spirit is to build up believers. When they respond to God's intelligible word to them, they are able to draw upon the power and guidance of God for life and ministry. God wants us to walk in a supernatural relationship with Himself, with real communication of God's truth to our hearts and minds.

Tongues simply opens up the door for our doubting hearts to meet a supernatural God. If we pray, and if we obey, we will come to understand what He is actually wanting to say to us. He wants to first of all meet with us. And secondly, He wants to communicate with us.

You are right, there were no tongues as such in the OT, just different languages.

Tongues as a sign for unbelievers, would involve tongues and interpretation or "other tongues" which would mean other languages which you are unable to speak and the Holy Spirit gives you the gift of tongues for that specific time for a specific purpose and obviously to minister to an unbeliever.

The purpose of the gifts of the Spirit is to build up believers. When they respond to God's intelligible word to them, they are able to draw upon the power and guidance of God for life and ministry. God wants us to walk in a supernatural relationship with Himself, with real communication of God's truth to our hearts and minds.

Absolutely, the gifts to build us up.

A difficulty I have in respect of tongues (and as I said, I do still pray in tongues in private prayer), however, the difficulty I have is the fact that when Jesus was baptised, He prayed and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove (Luke 3:21, 22) - nowhere do I see in Scripture though that Jesus prayed in tongues. When the disciples asked Him to teach them how to pray, He taught them what we know as the Lord's Prayer. I understand that the Holy Spirit had not been received by them yet, but Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and with power and yet did not speak in tongues.

There is a place for praying in the spirit, that does not involve tongues. As I say we become lazy prayers and we tend to do this thing of "Lord I lift up ___________ and then we just go off in tongues, instead of asking the Holy Spirit what it is that He would have us pray for that person. We live in a "microwave" world and we tend to microwave our prayers with tongues, simply because there isn't time to sit and listen to what the Holy Spirit wants to tell us. I am not saying that all have this problem, but I certainly did and I know many others who do the same thing, and have come through it. It wasn't easy by any means, because tongues takes no thought. Praying in the spirit in your home language for a person takes a huge sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and to hear what He is saying and showing us.

The interpretation of dreams is quite different, and that is something that the Holy Spirit will show us as we take time in prayer. I believe this is speaking what the Holy Spirit is showing us in our spirit - just as He speaks to us when we start entering into a new season and He begins to show us things to come. There are things in life that at times we really don't understand, just like Nebuchadnezzar's dreams, but as we take them to the Father in prayer, the Holy Spirit gives us the revelation.

But I must say, there are so many opinions of tongues, and I have been a "tongue prayer" for a very long time. However, last year, whilst taking stock of my life including my prayer life, this question was raised in my heart and now I try to do most of my praying in English, being sensitive to the Holy Spirit. It is not an easy task when you have been praying in tongues most of the time for about 40 years. It is hard, but it is wonderful, because you have go get in touch with your spirit, the Holy Spirit, your thoughts and emotions too, making sure that they are going in the direction of the Holy Spirit. Not sure if I am making sense... I believe as our minds are renewed more and more we begin to pray more and more from the very heart of God.

randyk
Aug 9th 2018, 03:40 PM
You are right, there were no tongues as such in the OT, just different languages.

Tongues as a sign for unbelievers, would involve tongues and interpretation or "other tongues" which would mean other languages which you are unable to speak and the Holy Spirit gives you the gift of tongues for that specific time for a specific purpose and obviously to minister to an unbeliever.


Well, Brendac, I personally think that tongues are *not* for ministering to unbelievers. They are uninterested in tongues, and at any rate, do not understand them. I think they are a "sign" of judgment against unbelievers, because in rejecting God they pour contempt on the gift of tongues as a fake display of divine power. After all, "tongues," for the ancient Hebrews, was equated with the foreign language spoken by their captors!



The purpose of the gifts of the Spirit is to build up believers. When they respond to God's intelligible word to them, they are able to draw upon the power and guidance of God for life and ministry. God wants us to walk in a supernatural relationship with Himself, with real communication of God's truth to our hearts and minds.

Absolutely, the gifts to build us up.

A difficulty I have in respect of tongues (and as I said, I do still pray in tongues in private prayer), however, the difficulty I have is the fact that when Jesus was baptised, He prayed and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove (Luke 3:21, 22) - nowhere do I see in Scripture though that Jesus prayed in tongues. When the disciples asked Him to teach them how to pray, He taught them what we know as the Lord's Prayer. I understand that the Holy Spirit had not been received by them yet, but Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and with power and yet did not speak in tongues.


Some people say that Jesus spoke in tongues on the cross when he declared something in another language. However, I agree with you. There is no methodology existing in Jesus, or even in the NT, which indicates that tongues is the 1st step in being filled or led by the Spirit. The Day of Pentecost simply happened as it did, beginning with a mass display of tongues among the obedient believers in Jerusalem.

We may surmise all day long about why tongues was the initial sign on Pentecost, and why all the Christians gathered in Jerusalem did that. However, there is no biblical theology indicating we must all speak in tongues to show we're filled with the Spirit. It simply happened on a few occasions.

We have no indication that those who spoke in tongues on Pentecost continued to do so later, though we know Paul encouraged its use as a prayer language. And Paul even seems to indicate that not all Christians exercise the gift of tongues. He asks, rhetorically, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer, obviously, is no. And this is not to condemn those who do not, but to show that God has different preferences for individual believers.



There is a place for praying in the spirit, that does not involve tongues. As I say we become lazy prayers and we tend to do this thing of "Lord I lift up ___________ and then we just go off in tongues, instead of asking the Holy Spirit what it is that He would have us pray for that person. We live in a "microwave" world and we tend to microwave our prayers with tongues, simply because there isn't time to sit and listen to what the Holy Spirit wants to tell us. I am not saying that all have this problem, but I certainly did and I know many others who do the same thing, and have come through it. It wasn't easy by any means, because tongues takes no thought. Praying in the spirit in your home language for a person takes a huge sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and to hear what He is saying and showing us.


I agree. It's a great thing to simply come into the presence of the Lord, to enjoy His presence. But it is even more important to communicate with Him--not just one way, from us to Him, but also from Him to us. We have to be willing to be quiet and submissive, to respond to the needs of others, and not just to our own interests.



The interpretation of dreams is quite different, and that is something that the Holy Spirit will show us as we take time in prayer. I believe this is speaking what the Holy Spirit is showing us in our spirit - just as He speaks to us when we start entering into a new season and He begins to show us things to come. There are things in life that at times we really don't understand, just like Nebuchadnezzar's dreams, but as we take them to the Father in prayer, the Holy Spirit gives us the revelation.


I was, however, comparing tongues and interpretation of tongues with the need to *hear from God,* and not just experience tongues. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to not just experience God in tongues, but to even more seek to hear from God, to understand God, to be guided by God intelligently.

I don't think supernatural gifts are something that we can just go out and get, or just claim as our birthright as Christians. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills--not as we will. Some may dream dreams, and others may see visions. Some may speak in tongues and interpret them. Others may prophecy or teach by revelation. Some focus on supernatural healing. Others focus on evangelization. We must know who we are. And we must recognize others for who they are. Then we can work together as one.



But I must say, there are so many opinions of tongues, and I have been a "tongue prayer" for a very long time. However, last year, whilst taking stock of my life including my prayer life, this question was raised in my heart and now I try to do most of my praying in English, being sensitive to the Holy Spirit. It is not an easy task when you have been praying in tongues most of the time for about 40 years. It is hard, but it is wonderful, because you have go get in touch with your spirit, the Holy Spirit, your thoughts and emotions too, making sure that they are going in the direction of the Holy Spirit. Not sure if I am making sense... I believe as our minds are renewed more and more we begin to pray more and more from the very heart of God.

I absolutely understand. Good word. Thank you! :)

hawkman
Aug 9th 2018, 04:49 PM
So, the tongues spoken of in Acts 2, refers to the fact that people heard the disciples speaking in each one's language - languages that the disciples did not know, but the Spirit gave them the utterance to speak in Aramaic, Chaldean and other languages. This is a gift of the Spirit and not necessarily an evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.



:huh:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If you are a born again Christian and are praying or speaking and the spirit is in control of the unknown tongue that comes out of your mouth ,Yes you are filled with the Holy Spirit !

randyk
Aug 9th 2018, 06:12 PM
:huh:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If you are a born again Christian and are praying or speaking and the spirit is in control of the unknown tongue that comes out of your mouth ,Yes you are filled with the Holy Spirit !

Absolutely! Nobody can say "Jesus is Lord" apart from the Holy Spirit. Neither can anybody speak in tongues (in the Christian sense) without being filled with the Spirit. Amen!

I would hasten to add that tongues is the *least* of the supernatural gifts. I would encourage every Christian, who obeys God, to pursue a gift/gifts of the Spirit. The supernatural demonstration of divine wisdom and power is what convinces the world of the reality of God, and also, the redemption that is in Christ.

ChangedByHim
Aug 9th 2018, 06:43 PM
Absolutely! Nobody can say "Jesus is Lord" apart from the Holy Spirit. Neither can anybody speak in tongues (in the Christian sense) without being filled with the Spirit. Amen!

I would hasten to add that tongues is the *least* of the supernatural gifts. I would encourage every Christian, who obeys God, to pursue a gift/gifts of the Spirit. The supernatural demonstration of divine wisdom and power is what convinces the world of the reality of God, and also, the redemption that is in Christ.
Praise the Lord! By the way, where does the Bible say that tongues is the least of the gifts?

randyk
Aug 10th 2018, 12:18 AM
Praise the Lord! By the way, where does the Bible say that tongues is the least of the gifts?

It is based on the following:
1 Cor 13.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts...
14.4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified....
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.


The idea is that the revelational gifts and the power gifts trump a gift that only communicates to the individual believer. Tongues only ministers to the one person. The other gifts minister to others. Hence, we see tongues, without interpretation, as less than the other gifts. Paul argued that we should seek the "greater gifts" for just this reason.

Of course, if you're implying that tongues is not less important simply because we are to seek the greater gifts, I would agree with you. Tongues, even though lesser in importance, remain equally important together with all of the gifts. We are simply to pursue the higher gifts, without neglecting the lower gifts. We are to seek to be a servant to all, if possible, and not just to ourselves.

It is arguable as to whether we should all exercise tongues. I don't. I've been in Pentecostal churches since 1971, but was coerced to utter gibberish, which I now hate myself for. I'm the kind of person who God must prove Himself to, in order to be sure a word is really from Him. Anything else I flush down the toilet. Sorry, that's how I feel about it.

ChangedByHim
Aug 10th 2018, 12:34 AM
Your text does not say that tongues are the least. It simply says that for edifying others it should only be used unless there's an interpretation. I've heard the 'least' statement a thousand times and after a while people just start to accept it. Paul is giving a specific situation and explaining which gift is more appropriate for that situation. If I am ministering to someone who is not sick, then I do not need the gift of healing to work. That doesn't make it less. There is no ranking of the 9 gifts on the Spirit. God wouldn't have given them if they weren't important and needed.

You may disagree with me, but if that's the only text you have to support the position, it's really just an opinion.

ewq1938
Aug 10th 2018, 05:44 AM
Your text does not say that tongues are the least.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Tongues here is listed last or the least after the first, second, third etc etc...Paul lists everything in order of importance. Of course he is speaking about being able to speak foreign languages not this other thing found in some churches.

randyk
Aug 10th 2018, 05:45 AM
Your text does not say that tongues are the least. It simply says that for edifying others it should only be used unless there's an interpretation. I've heard the 'least' statement a thousand times and after a while people just start to accept it. Paul is giving a specific situation and explaining which gift is more appropriate for that situation. If I am ministering to someone who is not sick, then I do not need the gift of healing to work. That doesn't make it less. There is no ranking of the 9 gifts on the Spirit. God wouldn't have given them if they weren't important and needed.

You may disagree with me, but if that's the only text you have to support the position, it's really just an opinion.

Yes, I told you my opinion that tongues is the least among those mentioned because of what Paul said in those verses. It seems to me that all of the other gifts Paul mentions minister to others, beyond just the self. And Paul's point is that any gift that ministers to more than just the self is *better.* For me, that makes tongues the least effective and least important gift.

I would hasten to add that this does not mean tongues is unimportant. Paul brags that he spoke in tongues more than all others that he knew. He obviously felt it was that important. However, in Paul's mind tongues is less important than the other gifts because *it only ministers to the self.* If this does not communicate to you what I said, then yes, we have different opinions.

Brendac
Aug 10th 2018, 07:15 AM
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Tongues here is listed last or the least after the first, second, third etc etc...Paul lists everything in order of importance. Of course he is speaking about being able to speak foreign languages not this other thing found in some churches.

Amen, I totally agree ewq1938. I heard someone the other day say on the TV that if you say Abinadab really fast three times you will be speaking in tongues and someone else some time ago, threw out a word to the audience and said if they were not yet speaking in tongues, say this word really fast and you will be speaking in tongues... how sad that some have reduced tongues to "a word".

Brendac
Aug 10th 2018, 07:21 AM
Yes, I told you my opinion that tongues is the least among those mentioned because of what Paul said in those verses. It seems to me that all of the other gifts Paul mentions minister to others, beyond just the self. And Paul's point is that any gift that ministers to more than just the self is *better.* For me, that makes tongues the least effective and least important gift.

I would hasten to add that this does not mean tongues is unimportant. Paul brags that he spoke in tongues more than all others that he knew. He obviously felt it was that important. However, in Paul's mind tongues is less important than the other gifts because *it only ministers to the self.* If this does not communicate to you what I said, then yes, we have different opinions.

Absolutely randyk, you are so right, however, as you say, it does not mean that tongues are unimportant, and we do need to look at edifying and encouraging one another.

Thank you so much for your input.

hawkman
Aug 10th 2018, 03:37 PM
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Tongues here is listed last or the least after the first, second, third etc etc...Paul lists everything in order of importance. Of course he is speaking about being able to speak foreign languages not this other thing found in some churches.

Do you believe in speaking or praying tongues as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance ? And is it for today ?

randyk
Aug 10th 2018, 04:16 PM
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Tongues here is listed last or the least after the first, second, third etc etc...Paul lists everything in order of importance. Of course he is speaking about being able to speak foreign languages not this other thing found in some churches.

Right, that also is an important passage, completing the idea. Tongues ranks last in importance among the gifts. And this is not because it lacks value. It is only because other gifts are more valuable, in reaching out to others. The greatest in God's Kingdom is the one who lives to serve all--not just himself. It is important, however, that we love ourselves before we can love others "as we love ourselves." :)

randyk
Aug 10th 2018, 04:23 PM
Absolutely randyk, you are so right, however, as you say, it does not mean that tongues are unimportant, and we do need to look at edifying and encouraging one another.

Thank you so much for your input.

One of the greatest ways to edify one's self is to sing praise songs to God. But I think the supernatural gifts are designed by God to inject something in us that is separate from our own mental facilities. So when we speak by revelation and are inspired from above, what we say is not a gift from us to God, but rather, a gift from God to us. We do need a partnership from heaven so that God's role in this relationship becomes obvious. :)

ewq1938
Aug 10th 2018, 07:49 PM
Do you believe in speaking or praying tongues as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance ? And is it for today ?

Only if it is actually from the HS but in scripture the tongues from the HS was always understood when it gave utterance. That's the miracle of it. The whole speaking and having a translator things we read of is people speaking foreign languages to an audience that needs the message translated into their language.

TrustGzus
Aug 10th 2018, 09:10 PM
I am a cessationist. Back in the 80’s I was a charismatic/continuationist. Back then the it seemed like I was in the minority. Most Christians I knew outside my church rejected tongues. Now I’m a cessationist and again it seems like I’m in the minority. Most Christians I know outside my church believe in it today.

Athanasius
Aug 10th 2018, 10:07 PM
Yes, absolutely. I would, however, also say that it doesn't happen as often as some charismatic groups would have you believe. Not nearly as often.

ChangedByHim
Aug 10th 2018, 10:31 PM
Yes, I told you my opinion that tongues is the least among those mentioned because of what Paul said in those verses. It seems to me that all of the other gifts Paul mentions minister to others, beyond just the self. And Paul's point is that any gift that ministers to more than just the self is *better.* For me, that makes tongues the least effective and least important gift.

I would hasten to add that this does not mean tongues is unimportant. Paul brags that he spoke in tongues more than all others that he knew. He obviously felt it was that important. However, in Paul's mind tongues is less important than the other gifts because *it only ministers to the self.* If this does not communicate to you what I said, then yes, we have different opinions.

You acknowledge Paul's statement that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians (that's a lot), but you then suggest that "in Paul's mind" it was the least important, even though he never wrote that.

Two points:

A. While praying in tongues does not have a direct impact on others, the byproduct of building one's self up in the Spirit is a boldness for Christ (Acts 1:8). I know this from my own experience.
B. When coupled with the gift of interpretation, it does indeed have a direct impact on others.

I can't begin to explain the positive difference it has made in my life and walk with God. Did it seem the least on the day of Pentecost? Or at Cornelius' house?

Do you pray in tongues Randy? (Sorry if you've answered that and I overlooked.)

ChangedByHim
Aug 10th 2018, 10:33 PM
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Tongues here is listed last or the least after the first, second, third etc etc...Paul lists everything in order of importance. Of course he is speaking about being able to speak foreign languages not this other thing found in some churches.
Because it's listed last that makes it least? Are we then to assume that it's ranked higher than every gift that's not included in the list in verse 28, using that same logic?

ewq1938
Aug 10th 2018, 10:40 PM
Because it's listed last that makes it least?

Yes. I believe it's a list of things in order of importance.



Are we then to assume that it's ranked higher than every gift that's not included in the list in verse 28, using that same logic?

I think it's best not to over think it. Paul listed things in an order and that's that. The true issue is what unknown tongues is and is not. It's not some magical angel language people spontaneously speak and someone has to interpret. Unknown tongues is speaking in foreign languages...German or Spanish or Greek. It's not what is found in some churches. That kind of "tongues" is a misrepresentation and severe misunderstanding of what Paul speaks of. I know you disagree but that's what we are here to discuss.

Slug1
Aug 11th 2018, 02:24 AM
Seems that for a gift of the Holy Spirit that is thought of as least, God moves Paul to devote an entire lesson for that gift and in the lesson, explains the importance of that gift concerning either individual or corporate purpose of that specific gift... just saying :)

ChangedByHim
Aug 11th 2018, 02:26 AM
Yes. I believe it's a list of things in order of importance.



I think it's best not to over think it. Paul listed things in an order and that's that. The true issue is what unknown tongues is and is not. It's not some magical angel language people spontaneously speak and someone has to interpret. Unknown tongues is speaking in foreign languages...German or Spanish or Greek. It's not what is found in some churches. That kind of "tongues" is a misrepresentation and severe misunderstanding of what Paul speaks of. I know you disagree but that's what we are here to discuss.

I believe you’re overthinking your ranking since it’s not in the text.

hawkman
Aug 11th 2018, 02:44 AM
You acknowledge Paul's statement that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians (that's a lot), but you then suggest that "in Paul's mind" it was the least important, even though he never wrote that.

Two points:

A. While praying in tongues does not have a direct impact on others, the byproduct of building one's self up in the Spirit is a boldness for Christ (Acts 1:8). I know this from my own experience.
B. When coupled with the gift of interpretation, it does indeed have a direct impact on others.

I can't begin to explain the positive difference it has made in my life and walk with God. Did it seem the least on the day of Pentecost? Or at Cornelius' house?

Do you pray in tongues Randy? (Sorry if you've answered that and I overlooked.)

Amen ! Praise God :pp! You are not alone with this positive difference .

randyk
Aug 11th 2018, 05:37 AM
You acknowledge Paul's statement that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians (that's a lot), but you then suggest that "in Paul's mind" it was the least important, even though he never wrote that.

Two points:

A. While praying in tongues does not have a direct impact on others, the byproduct of building one's self up in the Spirit is a boldness for Christ (Acts 1:8). I know this from my own experience.
B. When coupled with the gift of interpretation, it does indeed have a direct impact on others.

I can't begin to explain the positive difference it has made in my life and walk with God. Did it seem the least on the day of Pentecost? Or at Cornelius' house?

Do you pray in tongues Randy? (Sorry if you've answered that and I overlooked.)

In early 1971 I huddled with fellow Jesus People and got prayed over by Lutherans turned Pentecostals. They laid hands on me and told me to "move my lips" and expected me to do what they were doing, uttering gibberish. At the time, I thought perhaps there was some reality to glossolalia, but I didn't like being manipulated to do something by public pressure. I found myself retiring to another room, where I began to pray, wondering if all this was real. As I prayed, my language got very poetic and seemed to be even a little inspired as I prayed for a number of things. My thought at the time was, "It seems my English is more inspired than the gibberish I engaged in in the other room.

For a couple of years I practiced glossolalia with the rest of my Jesus People friends. It seemed like a whirlwind hit, and these friends all scattered in several directions. I was left contemplating what I, as an ex-Lutheran, believed. Gradually, I felt I was just making up a very moronic language, and quit.

I looked at the Scriptures, and decided that Paul taught tongues was only for those to whom God gave it. For some reason, *all* those on the day of Pentecost spoke tongues. And this happened on another occasion as well. So there was an individual gifting of tongues, and there was mass tongues. But the Scriptures taught that not all engage in all the gifts. At the same time Paul taught that it was a good gift to have.

One day I looked up to heaven and developed a case of "righteous indignation" over the subject in my own mind. I looked up at God and demanded from Him a sign that tongues were real, or I would start to dismiss prayer language altogether, ie tongues. I demanded a "sign from heaven," which I promptly withdrew in favor of the more humble, "sign on earth." At that very moment, a flash of light shot up to heaven, and then fell back to earth. I hadn't realized that we were so close to the 4th of July. A firework had just gone off, to mark a renewed belief in tongues. I don't recall seeing any other fireworks go off that entire day! ;)

So I do believe in tongues. But I continue to believe it is a prayer language only for those to whom the Holy Spirit gives it. On rare occasion God may excite a tongues gift in *all present* to mark a special day or occurrence. That is what I believe happened on the Day of Pentecost.

Tongues is the least only if it is not accompanied by an interpretation. But tongues is less than tongues with the interpretation--I think you can agree to that? So no, I'm not saying tongues is unimportant. It is a lesser gift, but it is important, just like your little toe is as important as your big toe! ;)

If you have a tongues gift, and tongues is a lesser gift, that does not make you inferior to me. On the contrary, one with the gift of tongues can also have other gifts, whether teaching, pastoring, or evangelizing. We are not to compare ourselves with one another in this way, but to strive to work together, allowing our individual gifts to complement one another.

Please don't misunderstand my characterization of tongues as if I think it unimportant. It is important for the very reason you give. It is a supernatural gift that allows God to recharge you for ministry. So it is a springboard for greater things. But the initial spring is important, particularly if you go on to use it to do more. Paul's only concern was that we don't do more, and just recede into the background, content with living as a spiritual hermit. You're certainly not that, right? ;)

ewq1938
Aug 11th 2018, 06:05 AM
Gradually, I felt I was just making up a very moronic language, and quit.

I pray that everyone comes to this realization.

ChangedByHim
Aug 11th 2018, 02:19 PM
I pray that everyone comes to this realization.

Fortunately, that's not going to happen.

Falconcheff
Aug 11th 2018, 11:04 PM
I pray that everyone comes to this realization.

I cancel that prayer in my life, in Jesus' name.

gringo300
Aug 12th 2018, 07:11 AM
I'm investigating the subject of tongues.

ewq1938
Aug 12th 2018, 07:13 AM
I'm investigating the subject of tongues.

So far so good! You are a natural. :)

EarlyCall
Aug 15th 2018, 01:22 AM
So, is this gift a requirement for anything? I know what I believe but ask it anyway.

randyk
Aug 15th 2018, 01:24 AM
So, is this gift a requirement for anything? I know what I believe but ask it anyway.

Pentecostals typically require it as evidence that you've received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which they distinguish from Salvation. They believe that following salvation one should receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidence by the speaking in tongues. They believe *all* believers have access to this gift if they ask for and wait upon this gift.

The gift was used en masse initially to mark the beginning of the age of Spirit Baptism. But the evidence we have is that this kind of mass display was rare and limited. Paul made the gift of tongues to be a means of self-edification by individuals, unless it is accompanied by an interpretation, which makes it equal to prophecy.

So the value of tongues is in an avenue in which we can let God operate in us supernaturally, so that we are accustomed to deferring to God's spiritual guidance. This is in essence what the Christian life is all about, letting God lead us, while we also exercise our will to do what we see, by revelation, is the character and desire of Christ.

Athanasius
Aug 15th 2018, 08:01 AM
Pentecostals typically require it as evidence that you've received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which they distinguish from Salvation. They believe that following salvation one should receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidence by the speaking in tongues. They believe *all* believers have access to this gift if they ask for and wait upon this gift.

I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and still has yet to happen to me. Pentecostal response? Shrug, and blame me.

Aristarkos
Aug 15th 2018, 08:12 AM
I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and still has yet to happen to me. Pentecostal response? Shrug, and blame me.

Must be your fault, you do not believe the correct way. ;) On a more serious note, I know most believe dispensations are crap, but it is peculiar it all stopped after Acts 28:28 or thereabouts and the Hebrew letter warns about it. It even calls the gifts in Heb. 6:5 « ... the powers of the aion to come », and says in 6:6 « and having fallen away ... » according to the Greek.

Aristarkos

IMINXTC
Aug 15th 2018, 08:17 AM
I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and still has yet to happen to me. Pentecostal response? Shrug, and blame me.

I was told one needs to "prime the pump."

Nah, didn't work for me either, though my physical tongue became more apparent.

ewq1938
Aug 15th 2018, 08:19 AM
I was told one needs to "prime the pump."

Nah, didn't work for me either.

Matrix style, "There is no pump."

EarlyCall
Aug 15th 2018, 09:26 AM
Pentecostals typically require it as evidence that you've received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which they distinguish from Salvation. They believe that following salvation one should receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidence by the speaking in tongues. They believe *all* believers have access to this gift if they ask for and wait upon this gift.

The gift was used en masse initially to mark the beginning of the age of Spirit Baptism. But the evidence we have is that this kind of mass display was rare and limited. Paul made the gift of tongues to be a means of self-edification by individuals, unless it is accompanied by an interpretation, which makes it equal to prophecy.

So the value of tongues is in an avenue in which we can let God operate in us supernaturally, so that we are accustomed to deferring to God's spiritual guidance. This is in essence what the Christian life is all about, letting God lead us, while we also exercise our will to do what we see, by revelation, is the character and desire of Christ.

Thank you for your reasoned and good response.

I am very careful to speak of such things. I can say that according to Corinthians, it is but one gift given by the Holy Spirit and distributed to whom He pleases. My reading of it does not lead me to be.ieve it is a gift given to everyone any more than the other gifts mentioned with it are given to everyone. That is how I read it anyway.

The day of Pentecost they spoke in the tongues of men which is crystal clear. The point being, I see that as different. There was no one there that day to interpret nor was there a need for one.

I read a book some years ago where the author argued that the gift of tongues was required as evidence that one had received the Holy Spirit - that second work of grace. The author used Acts as his evidence citing examples of those who accepted Christ also received the Holy Spirit and then spoke in tongues.

I would ask the author or anyone else, when did Paul accept Christ? Did it occur in Acts? When did Paul receive the Holy Spirit? Did it occur in Acts? When was Paul baptized. Did it occur in Acts? And where do we read that Paul spoke in tongues? Was it in Acts?

Since the author used Acts to prove his assertion, then I will use Acts tot put forth my questions above.

And finally, this is a subject I almost never get involved in on this board. This subject seems to be like OSAS and the rapture.

TrustGzus
Aug 15th 2018, 12:29 PM
Whether it’s for today or not, it’s pretty clear from 1 Corinthians 12 that tongues was never given to everybody.

1 Corinthians 12:29–30 (NAS): All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

I went to a Charismatic Bible College. They taught tongues was the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Everybody in the college, staff and students, spoke in tongues except for me.

Slug1
Aug 15th 2018, 01:04 PM
Whether it’s for today or not, it’s pretty clear from 1 Corinthians 12 that tongues was never given to everybody.

1 Corinthians 12:29–30 (NAS): All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

I went to a Charismatic Bible College. They taught tongues was the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Everybody in the college, staff and students, spoke in tongues except for me.Joe, honest question here... do you believe they spoke in tongues, or do you believe they were faking the tongues?

randyk
Aug 15th 2018, 04:29 PM
I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and still has yet to happen to me. Pentecostal response? Shrug, and blame me.

I respect your mind. And the mind should be over the emotions. Those who feel "led" by the Holy Spirit are often led by peer pressure, Pentecostal doctrine, and their own emotions. I believe there is an authentic gift of tongues. But I believe Paul rhetorically asked the question, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer is, no. There are greater gifts than tongues, that we should focus on. I'm pleased that you use your mind over emotions, in particular on this subject :)

randyk
Aug 15th 2018, 04:32 PM
Joe, honest question here... do you believe they spoke in tongues, or do you believe they were faking the tongues?

Have you listened to the display of tongues in this way? The same syllables, over and over. Sometimes from one person to another they sound the same. This doesn't sound like a "heavenly language" to me!

Glossolalia is practiced as an "ecstatic language" in pagan rituals. Are they faking it? No. They sincerely believe they are speaking in a sort of "heavenly language," being inspired by a spirit. But who am I to judge?

Now, lest you think I don't believe in any Pentecostal displays that are of supernatural origin, let me tell you what I do believe. I've heard stories of Christians speaking in tongues that were actually understood in someone's native language! My wife exercises the tongues prayer language. So does my brother. I have experienced the "gift of knowledge," in which I "saw" what someone was going through from a long distance away. My pastor's wife regularly "prophesies," and it bears witness to me that it is true, that it is a burden being expressed by God for our church.

There have been a number of healings I've seen happen in my life. I'm not generally a healer, but I prayed for my wife's leg veins, a perennial problem with her, and it has gone away, never to return--that was more than 30 years ago! I prayed for my cat, and a bump on her head went away the next day--a bump that had been there for many years--I wasn't even praying for the bump, but for something else! My pastor recently was prayed over by the church, because his wife said she felt led by God to have the church pray for him. The X rays indicated a mass in two places in his system--99% chance cancer. He went in for taking a sample of the mass, and it was gone from the X rays!

I believe in supernatural gifts in the Church. And I believe in a supernatural God who is intimately involved in our lives. He just doesn't do what we want *by formula.* He does what He wants, and we are to be led by Him. He is Lord! But to formulate doctrines that *all should speak in tongues" is questionable, and should not, I think, be foisted upon Christians as if it is mandatory to living a good Christian life. Let God and the Christian work out their own salvation...

TrustGzus
Aug 15th 2018, 04:43 PM
Joe, honest question here... do you believe they spoke in tongues, or do you believe they were faking the tongues?

Ken, I think it was not the genuine gift.

randyk
Aug 15th 2018, 04:57 PM
Thank you for your reasoned and good response.

I am very careful to speak of such things. I can say that according to Corinthians, it is but one gift given by the Holy Spirit and distributed to whom He pleases. My reading of it does not lead me to be.ieve it is a gift given to everyone any more than the other gifts mentioned with it are given to everyone. That is how I read it anyway.

The day of Pentecost they spoke in the tongues of men which is crystal clear. The point being, I see that as different. There was no one there that day to interpret nor was there a need for one.

I read a book some years ago where the author argued that the gift of tongues was required as evidence that one had received the Holy Spirit - that second work of grace. The author used Acts as his evidence citing examples of those who accepted Christ also received the Holy Spirit and then spoke in tongues.

I would ask the author or anyone else, when did Paul accept Christ? Did it occur in Acts? When did Paul receive the Holy Spirit? Did it occur in Acts? When was Paul baptized. Did it occur in Acts? And where do we read that Paul spoke in tongues? Was it in Acts?

Since the author used Acts to prove his assertion, then I will use Acts tot put forth my questions above.

And finally, this is a subject I almost never get involved in on this board. This subject seems to be like OSAS and the rapture.

We're here to debate/discuss subjects like this. Just because it's a hot, controversial subject shouldn't dissuade you from putting in your "nickel's worth," and I'm glad we both did. God can correct any errors, if others feel so led.

Pentecostals initially felt that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was actually a "3rd work of grace," following Salvation, and Sanctification. Some may have felt it was just a "2nd work of grace." Many Christians in history felt that Spirit Baptism was supposed to be simultaneous with Salvation--it is just that some people only trust in God for Salvation in a nominal way, lacking a full knowledge of what genuine Salvation should be. For example, Apollos was a Christian with limited knowledge, until other believers showed him the "way of God more fully." (I hope I got the story right!)

Your point about differentiating the "tongues of men" from other tongues is interesting, but I don't have the answers. And I can't, at this time, answer your questions about Paul. I might ask the same question about John Mark, Silas, Titus, or Barnabas? Good question though!

Slug1
Aug 15th 2018, 05:05 PM
Have you listened to the display of tongues in this way? The same syllables, over and over. Sometimes from one person to another they sound the same. This doesn't sound like a "heavenly language" to me!

Glossolalia is practiced as an "ecstatic language" in pagan rituals. Are they faking it? No. They sincerely believe they are speaking in a sort of "heavenly language," being inspired by a spirit. But who am I to judge?

Now, lest you think I don't believe in any Pentecostal displays that are of supernatural origin, let me tell you what I do believe. I've heard stories of Christians speaking in tongues that were actually understood in someone's native language! My wife exercises the tongues prayer language. So does my brother. I have experienced the "gift of knowledge," in which I "saw" what someone was going through from a long distance away. My pastor's wife regularly "prophesies," and it bears witness to me that it is true, that it is a burden being expressed by God for our church.

There have been a number of healings I've seen happen in my life. I'm not generally a healer, but I prayed for my wife's leg veins, a perennial problem with her, and it has gone away, never to return--that was more than 30 years ago! I prayed for my cat, and a bump on her head went away the next day--a bump that had been there for many years--I wasn't even praying for the bump, but for something else! My pastor recently was prayed over by the church, because his wife said she felt led by God to have the church pray for him. The X rays indicated a mass in two places in his system--99% chance cancer. He went in for taking a sample of the mass, and it was gone from the X rays!

I believe in supernatural gifts in the Church. And I believe in a supernatural God who is intimately involved in our lives. He just doesn't do what we want *by formula.* He does what He wants, and we are to be led by Him. He is Lord! But to formulate doctrines that *all should speak in tongues" is questionable, and should not, I think, be foisted upon Christians as if it is mandatory to living a good Christian life. Let God and the Christian work out their own salvation...

When the gift of tongues is manifest, words of a "language" are uttered by the power of the Holy Spirit (He gives the utterance - Acts 2:4).

Soon as anyone is "instructed" by mankind to speak a term/word over and over (faster- as to get it to jumble up)... then the Holy Spirit is NOT giving utterance.

I believe "tongues" is a gift, as per scriptures reveal. However, I have no doubt that mankind "envies" or "covets" (or a combination of both) this gift and through a LACK in proper discipleship, have "taught" how to speak in what is called tongues, by various means. One means of which is mentioned in this thread where a "word or phrase" is repeated over and over and they become so skilled in this, they deceive themselves into "thinking" the Holy Spirit is giving utterance.

In such cases, we have deceived and undiscipled Christians where the "human spirit" is giving utterance.

Slug1
Aug 15th 2018, 05:07 PM
Ken, I think it was not the genuine gift.Based on your belief the gift is ended, or based on that you can tell they were faking the gift, i.e. they were saying a word or a phase or even a sound effect, over and over and no "language" was being spoken at all?

I will give a small testimony later as to why I ask this, in the manner inwhich I ask.

ChangedByHim
Aug 15th 2018, 05:30 PM
Whether it’s for today or not, it’s pretty clear from 1 Corinthians 12 that tongues was never given to everybody.

1 Corinthians 12:29–30 (NAS): All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

I went to a Charismatic Bible College. They taught tongues was the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Everybody in the college, staff and students, spoke in tongues except for me.

I have a lot that I could say about this, and have written a lot on the topic, but I'll keep it brief.

I'm glad your said "pretty" clear, because there is more to it than meets the eye when you take that verse "do all speak with tongues" in isolation.

Without getting into a lot of detail, there are two different manifestations of the gift of tongues:

1) Public use which must always be interpreted. Further this use is not for prayer but spoken unto men with a message from God (with interpretation).
2) Private use which does not require interpretation - he speaks mysteries to God (1 Cor. 14:2).

The verse you reference is in relation to the public gift. This gift is not for everyone, but as the Spirit wills.

Do all Christians pray in tongues? Clearly not. Some want and don't have and many do not want. Many misunderstand the gift altogether.

As to God's will: we have three explicit examples of tongues in the book of Acts;

1) Acts 2 at Pentecost. 120 present and all 120 receive the Holy Spirit and speak with tongues.
2) Acts 10 at Cornelius' house. A full house and all spoke with tongues and prophesied.
3) Acts 19 at Ephesus. Pray prayed for 12 disciples and all 12 spoke in tongues.

The conclusion, in every instance recorded in Acts where the Holy Spirit was given, 100% of the people spoke in tongues. If tongues were only for a select few, why does the evidence point the other direction?

As with healing, there are many variables on whether someone receives the gift, but this does not change God's will. I could go into much greater detail, but it's usually wasted words around here on topics where people's minds are already made up. You, brother, seem to give prayerful and thoughtful consideration to other views, so I responded to your post. Blessings!

TrustGzus
Aug 15th 2018, 05:30 PM
Based on your belief the gift is ended, or based on that you can tell they were faking the gift, i.e. they were saying a word or a phase or even a sound effect, over and over and no "language" was being spoken at all?

I will give a small testimony later as to why I ask this, in the manner inwhich I ask.

Sure. I wanted to answer carefully. I don’t want to give the perception that the people are/were fake. Some I am sure are and have been fake. Others are genuine about this and believe they have the gift and aren’t mindfully faking in my opinion.

I think the gift ceased. So I think the manifestations aren’t genuine tongues though I think many users of said gift aren’t deliberate mindful fakes in their use of it.

Trivalee
Aug 15th 2018, 05:31 PM
Speaking in "tongues" is a spiritual gift that has unfortunately been abused on many levels. For those who have the gift, sometimes it is the Holy Spirit that prompts to speak or pray in tongues. In this instance, the speaker has no control over when to quit until the Holy Spirit lets go. In other cases also, especially in prayer, the speaker may chose to pray specifically in tongues for a while, but when it is used to show off or to entertain, then the Paraclete is not part of it.

Sadly, the former is prevalent today among charlatans out to use endearing words to deceive the humble.

Slug1
Aug 15th 2018, 05:32 PM
Sure. I wanted to answer carefully. I don’t want to give the perception that the people are/were fake. Some I am sure are and have been fake. Others are genuine about this and believe they have the gift and aren’t mindfully faking in my opinion.

I think the gift ceased. So I think the manifestations aren’t genuine tongues though I think many users of said gift aren’t deliberate mindful fakes in their use of it.I understand. You know I have to ask... what scriptures do you utilize in determining that this gift (or all the gifts) has ended?

TrustGzus
Aug 15th 2018, 05:37 PM
I have a lot that I could say about this, and have written a lot on the topic, but I'll keep it brief.

I'm glad your said "pretty" clear, because there is more to it than meets the eye when you take that verse "do all speak with tongues" in isolation.

Without getting into a lot of detail, there are two different manifestations of the gift of tongues:

1) Public use which must always be interpreted. Further this use is not for prayer but spoken unto men with a message from God (with interpretation).
2) Private use which does not require interpretation - he speaks mysteries to God (1 Cor. 14:2).

The verse you reference is in relation to the public gift. This gift is not for everyone, but as the Spirit wills.

Do all Christians pray in tongues? Clearly not. Some want and don't have and many do not want. Many misunderstand the gift altogether.

As to God's will: we have three explicit examples of tongues in the book of Acts;

1) Acts 2 at Pentecost. 120 present and all 120 receive the Holy Spirit and speak with tongues.
2) Acts 10 at Cornelius' house. A full house and all spoke with tongues and prophesied.
3) Acts 19 at Ephesus. Pray prayed for 12 disciples and all 12 spoke in tongues.

The conclusion, in every instance recorded in Acts where the Holy Spirit was given, 100% of the people spoke in tongues. If tongues were only for a select few, why does the evidence point the other direction?

As with healing, there are many variables on whether someone receives the gift, but this does not change God's will. I could go into much greater detail, but it's usually wasted words around here on topics where people's minds are already made up. You, brother, seem to give prayerful and thoughtful consideration to other views, so I responded to your post. Blessings!

I really appreciate what you wrote. I think this thread has potential to be a very edifying disagreeing thread.

Also I appreciate briefness. Perhaps you can bit by bit expand your thoughts. Long posts can be hard on all. We don’t converse face to face in long blocks generally.

If perhaps we can keep the thread conversational in length of posts this could be a historically great thread of Christian brothers expressing differences while being loving with each other.

That would be awesome because I do love you folks even in our differences.

Trivalee
Aug 15th 2018, 05:49 PM
I'm investigating the subject of tongues.

How exactly will your investigation go?

ChangedByHim
Aug 15th 2018, 05:53 PM
Speaking in "tongues" is a spiritual gift that has unfortunately been abused on many levels. For those who have the gift, sometimes it is the Holy Spirit that prompts to speak or pray in tongues. In this instance, the speaker has no control over when to quit until the Holy Spirit lets go. In other cases also, especially in prayer, the speaker may chose to pray specifically in tongues for a while, but when it is used to show off or to entertain, then the Paraclete is not part of it.

Sadly, the former is prevalent today among charlatans out to use endearing words to deceive the humble.

This is a misconception. A person with the gift always has the control to keep silent based on the situation.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.


Further, the principle remains:

Verse 32: the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Trivalee
Aug 15th 2018, 05:59 PM
So, is this gift a requirement for anything? I know what I believe but ask it anyway.

NO. The Bible didn't say it's a requirement for anything. But Paul encouraged it and it's one of the "gifts" that are greatly sought after. And God gives liberally to those to seek with their heart.

Athanasius
Aug 15th 2018, 06:17 PM
I respect your mind. And the mind should be over the emotions. Those who feel "led" by the Holy Spirit are often led by peer pressure, Pentecostal doctrine, and their own emotions. I believe there is an authentic gift of tongues. But I believe Paul rhetorically asked the question, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer is, no. There are greater gifts than tongues, that we should focus on. I'm pleased that you use your mind over emotions, in particular on this subject :)

I agree (I do think it's a gift, but I don't think it's evidence in the way Pentecostal's claim, and I don't think everyone has it).

TrustGzus
Aug 15th 2018, 06:24 PM
This is a misconception. A person with the gift always has the control to keep silent based on the situation.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.


Further, the principle remains:

Verse 32: the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

I gave you reps already today. Can’t do it again. Wish I could.

Trivalee
Aug 15th 2018, 06:45 PM
This is a misconception. A person with the gift always has the control to keep silent based on the situation.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.


Further, the principle remains:

Verse 32: the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

You misunderstood what I meant. I'm not saying one suddenly let's rip and speak in tongues because he can't control himself irrespective of where he is. My point is, (and I'm speaking from a personal experience) on the few times it happened, I was praying alone.

This is quite common; it is akin to the experience of praying on a subject and the Holy Spirit interrupting and leading you to pray for something else completely unrelated to the topic you started out with.

Testimonies abound from believers who on occasion when praying alone in tongues, find the Holy Spirit leading them to continue when they wished to stop until the HS lets them go. 1 Cor 14:27-28 refers to praying among the congregation. It doesn't apply because God is not the author of confusion. These incidents only occur when praying alone.

Slug1
Aug 15th 2018, 07:14 PM
Based on your belief the gift is ended, or based on that you can tell they were faking the gift, i.e. they were saying a word or a phase or even a sound effect, over and over and no "language" was being spoken at all?

I will give a small testimony later as to why I ask this, in the manner inwhich I ask.

Coming from a "cessationist" upbringing in the "church", when God prompted me to begin attending a Pentecostal church... I was still UN-learning much. As I began to receive discipleship concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit (and this message board helped me ALOT), plus my own personal study, over time I began to experience brethren who spoke in tongues. I've heard the false teachings also in some telling me they can teach me "how" to speak in tongues.

Over time, I began to recognize a difference between many who I knew spoke in tongues. Those who spoke in a "language" at church would softly speak, usually when praying, in a very soft manner. You would have to literally eavesdrop to hear them. Which, I did :) and even I could recognize that a "language" was being spoken, even though I did not understand. I felt at ease listening, even though I was making effort to listen.

Those who spoke in what I can only say IS a repeated word or phrase over and over, they were always the ones blasting out in tongues for all to hear, yet never any interpretation. Never did I "feel" at ease when this was happening.

I began to wonder if I would ever "hear" interpretation of tongues given in a corporate setting. I attended a state conference, my pastor at that time invited me to attend the conference. During the 2 day event, the conference culminated with a service. It was during this service I witnessed a man stand up and begin to speak in tongues out loud for all to hear and after speaking in a "language" for several sentences, they stopped. Across the room a person stood and spoke the interpretation and when they paused, the man sat and someone from across the room stood (the one who was giving the interpretation remained standing) and began to speak in a totally different language and again, the interpretation was given and they sat. VERY, VERY edifying and I was at ease in my spirit.

No repeated words, not phrase over and over. I could not recognize the language (I've heard many - French, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, various Asian and various Arabic, oh, Dutch, Swedish, some others too) but the POINT is, I COULD recognize that a language IS being spoken. Compared to a word or phrase spoken over and over, the difference is day to night.

One clearly the gift in action as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and in that case, interpretation as well. The other however, clearly NOT the Holy Spirit giving utterance and I've never heard any interpretation given when this "form" of tongues is spoken.

Now, years later, I've experienced (listened too) several occasions of corporate speaking of tongues and interpretation for the edification of the listeners. When the Holy Spirit gives utterance, it's always calm, purposeful and I would say WITH authority. On one such occasion, it was children speaking in tongues and a child giving the interpretation and while the entire church was edified, the messages was "for" (God spoke to) the children of the church.

However, over the years I've also had several experiences with those who speak a word or phrase over and over, it is ALWAYS ecstatic, without purpose and is chaotic and no interpretation.

ewq1938
Aug 15th 2018, 08:13 PM
This is a misconception. A person with the gift always has the control to keep silent based on the situation.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

That verse is describing this type of situation:

A group of Christian have arrived in Utah from a distant country and do not speak English. If they wish to give testimonies or preach, no more than 3 should be speaking and only if there is an interpreter. Why? One person interpreting what 3 other people are saying is hard! 4 would be too much. Paul also says if there is no interpreter these people should not be speaking to the congregation. Why? There is no one to interpret (which means to translation) from their language to English. They should simply speak to God quietly to themselves in their minds etc.

There is no magical or miracle subject here. Tongues simple if a VERY OLD English word for "languages". All Paul is talking about is speaking and translation foreign languages so other people can know what's being said. Most of what Paul talks about in regards to "tongues" is this. The odd sounding "language" found in some churches is simply not something the bible promotes. Plus Paul speaks against such a thing in one passage. I know this is shocking to some but it's the truth.

Slug1
Aug 15th 2018, 08:21 PM
That verse is describing this type of situation:

A group of Christian have arrived in Utah from a distant country and do not speak English. If they wish to give testimonies or preach, no more than 3 should be speaking and only if there is an interpreter. Why? One person interpreting what 3 other people are saying is hard! 4 would be too much. Paul also says if there is no interpreter these people should not be speaking to the congregation. Why? There is no one to interpret (which means to translation) from their language to English. They should simply speak to God quietly to themselves in their minds etc.

There is no magical or miracle subject here. Tongues simple if a VERY OLD English word for "languages". All Paul is talking about is speaking and translation foreign languages so other people can know what's being said. Most of what Paul talks about in regards to "tongues" is this. The odd sounding "language" found in some churches is simply not something the bible promotes. Plus Paul speaks against such a thing in one passage. I know this is shocking to some but it's the truth.You are not accounting for the "gift" of the Holy Spirit for speaking in an unknown language and another interpreting the unknown language.

You are describing three people speaking a known language (learned not gifted) and for those who do not understand, someone who knows the languages being spoken, they translate from one language to another so all can understand. Again, no gifting involved.

That is not what Paul is detailing. He is detailing that the language is unknown to ALL (except God), including the one speaking. In a corporate setting, if all are to be edified, to include the speaker, then the Holy Spirit ALSO gifts someone with a gift in interpreting the unknown language being spoken.

randyk
Aug 15th 2018, 08:46 PM
When the gift of tongues is manifest, words of a "language" are uttered by the power of the Holy Spirit (He gives the utterance - Acts 2:4).

Soon as anyone is "instructed" by mankind to speak a term/word over and over (faster- as to get it to jumble up)... then the Holy Spirit is NOT giving utterance.

I believe "tongues" is a gift, as per scriptures reveal. However, I have no doubt that mankind "envies" or "covets" (or a combination of both) this gift and through a LACK in proper discipleship, have "taught" how to speak in what is called tongues, by various means. One means of which is mentioned in this thread where a "word or phrase" is repeated over and over and they become so skilled in this, they deceive themselves into "thinking" the Holy Spirit is giving utterance.

In such cases, we have deceived and undiscipled Christians where the "human spirit" is giving utterance.

I agree. There is the genuine gift of tongues, genuinely given to individual Christians by the Holy Spirit. Paul had this gift. And there are those who display a false "prayer language," that has been foisted upon them by false Pentecostal doctrine. I would encourage anyone who has the genuine gift of tongues to exercise that gift. God has given it for a reason. But for those who feel "manipulated," I would cease and desist.

ewq1938
Aug 15th 2018, 08:56 PM
You are not accounting for the "gift" of the Holy Spirit for speaking in an unknown language and another interpreting the unknown language.

God can give such a gift and still be within what I described.



You are describing three people speaking a known language (learned not gifted) and for those who do not understand, someone who knows the languages being spoken, they translate from one language to another so all can understand. Again, no gifting involved.

The gift is the ability to translate it perfectly as opposed to a poor translation.



That is not what Paul is detailing. He is detailing that the language is unknown to ALL (except God), including the one speaking.

Nope. The speaker knows the language they are speaking. It is the listeners that do not know it.



In a corporate setting, if all are to be edified, to include the speaker, then the Holy Spirit ALSO gifts someone with a gift in interpreting the unknown language being spoken.

Key here is language. What is found in many churches is no language at all.

ewq1938
Aug 15th 2018, 08:57 PM
I agree. There is the genuine gift of tongues, genuinely given to individual Christians by the Holy Spirit. Paul had this gift. And there are those who display a false "prayer language," that has been foisted upon them by false Pentecostal doctrine. I would encourage anyone who has the genuine gift of tongues to exercise that gift. God has given it for a reason. But for those who feel "manipulated," I would cease and desist.

Can you describe exactly what the true tongues would be and how it differs from the false ones?

randyk
Aug 15th 2018, 09:07 PM
I have a lot that I could say about this, and have written a lot on the topic, but I'll keep it brief.

I'm glad your said "pretty" clear, because there is more to it than meets the eye when you take that verse "do all speak with tongues" in isolation.

Without getting into a lot of detail, there are two different manifestations of the gift of tongues:

1) Public use which must always be interpreted. Further this use is not for prayer but spoken unto men with a message from God (with interpretation).
2) Private use which does not require interpretation - he speaks mysteries to God (1 Cor. 14:2).

The verse you reference is in relation to the public gift. This gift is not for everyone, but as the Spirit wills.

Do all Christians pray in tongues? Clearly not. Some want and don't have and many do not want. Many misunderstand the gift altogether.

As to God's will: we have three explicit examples of tongues in the book of Acts;

1) Acts 2 at Pentecost. 120 present and all 120 receive the Holy Spirit and speak with tongues.
2) Acts 10 at Cornelius' house. A full house and all spoke with tongues and prophesied.
3) Acts 19 at Ephesus. Pray prayed for 12 disciples and all 12 spoke in tongues.

The conclusion, in every instance recorded in Acts where the Holy Spirit was given, 100% of the people spoke in tongues. If tongues were only for a select few, why does the evidence point the other direction?

As with healing, there are many variables on whether someone receives the gift, but this does not change God's will. I could go into much greater detail, but it's usually wasted words around here on topics where people's minds are already made up. You, brother, seem to give prayerful and thoughtful consideration to other views, so I responded to your post. Blessings!

I often appear to have my mind made up, because my views have been formed, in some cases, over decades. However, I insist that I'm *always* open to God's Spirit. Nothing more in the world that I want than God's will! Neither do I want to be pressured by those who *think* they are God's voice to all of Christianity! ;)

I'm open to tongues, and to every other gift of the Spirit. Pentecostals in the churches I've attended over the last 40+ years have told me I should display all of the gifts, if I'm open to it. However, in my experience only some gifts have happened to me, such as the gift of knowledge. Prophecy plays out in my head, but is never uttered in public--I don't know why that is? I've prayed and spoken, and have seen God back me up with signs and wonders.

But to answer your question, I don't know why *all* spoke in tongues on those 3 occasions? I've long asked that question myself. I know that's the basis for Pentecostal Doctrine on the subject. However, again, it has not been my experience, nor do I see explicit doctrine on the subject in the Bible. So I just leave it as it is, and let God decide who operates what gifts.

In fact, it is obvious we're not all alike, since some are the "eye," and others the "ear." And so, it is expected that our assortment of gifts, or spiritual "package," will be different from person to person. To just ask all individual Christians to seek for and to display *all gifts* is a bit much for me, and nothing I ever experience, in my own life or in the church.

Paul seems to think that not all will prophesy or speak in tongues. There may be other explanations for that other than just different giftings, but I see no mandated statement from Paul that we should utilize all the gifts, individually--just that we should seek the higher, or more useful, gifts.

I could offer you *my* explanation as to why I think *all* spoke in tongues on 3 occasions. But then, maybe we should also explain why it is recorded as happening on *only* these 3 occasions? There is no developed theology on tongues, as far as I can see. It was just a major sign of a dispensational change in giftings in the world.

Sometimes people temporarily use a gift, but are never intended to use a gift permanently. I have no proof that the 120 on the Day of Pentecost continued to operate in the gifts, among all 120? There is a story in the Bible where a number of Israelite leaders suddenly began to prophesy, but then never did it again (Num 11.25). Some judge them, as if people grew fearful of exercising their gift? Others, like myself, believe that God intended the gift to only be operated on rare occasions for a specific sign.

I really don't mean to offend Pentecostals who believe in a universal prayer language. I'm just trying to be honest with myself on behalf of others who have had similar questions. In any case, you should do what the Spirit leads you to do. And you should base what you do on Scripture.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 12:21 AM
God can give such a gift and still be within what I described.



The gift is the ability to translate it perfectly as opposed to a poor translation.




Nope. The speaker knows the language they are speaking. It is the listeners that do not know it.




Key here is language. What is found in many churches is no language at all.Your premise is about languages "known" by the speaker. In chapter 12, Paul teaches of the gifts and two of which, for this topic are: "to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."

If the gift is about speaking different tongues, then when a person is speaking any language they already know... then the gift is not involved.

If a person is to speak a language they "know" they are not manifesting an unknown language that Paul goes on to teach about in 1 Cor 14:2.

Now, look at this verse: 13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

You are saying that a person speaks a language they KNOW... such a person does NOT have to pray that they "may" be able to interpret what they said. Have you ever prayed that you can interpret what you spoke? Paul is clear in his instruction in that ONLY God knows what is being spoken (v2) and if man wants to know, they have to PRAY that they MAY interpret. Thus the gift of tongues AND the gift of interpretation of tongues is manifest.

I'll go on to say this as well, the church God has placed me in is Hispanic. I do not speak Spanish and in all the many Bible studies or messages I've given, I've never HAD to pray that God "may" give interpretation. I always have a translator available.

Edit:

Here is a post I made last year in a tongues related thread:


OK, here is what Paul's lesson teaches primarily in chapter 14:

v 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

This is the core verse that shows us that there is a kind of tongues that WHEN spoken, NO ONE understands EXCEPT for God. Do you know that there was a scientific study done on Christians and non-Christians who spoke in tongues. They put a bunch of leads to their heads and monitored the brains activity. They focused on the parts of the brain that governed and controlled speech. The result, Christians who spoke in tongues (remember now, this is only by the power of the Holy Spirit), they found that the parts of the brain that governed speech, that for the most part was inactive when the person was speaking in a language neither they, nor anyone could identify. Those who were non-Christians and when they began to speak in whatever they were speaking, then parts of the brain that governed speech was LIT UP like crazy as the brain was FULLY engaged. But for those Christians, empowered by the Holy Spirit... not much, if any brain activity registered and they spoke clearly.

I WISH they could have hooked up other Christians, ones who are faking it and see how their brains lit up :hmm:

This shows a clear difference between Holy Spirit empowered tongues (real deal) and human spirit empowered tongues (fake tongues).

Anyway... Paul teaches that when this kind of tongues is manifested, no one can understand what is being spoken. So, the PURPOSE is either questioned or unfortunately, criticized. I will say, criticism of a gift of the Holy Spirit is birthED ONLY by lack of knowledge. So again, the purpose, what is the purpose? So glad you asked :)

v 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

You see? Gifts have various functions/purposes. One, to edify others and two (another), to edify oneself.

But I don't need to edify myself, I have my faith! So many times I hear this from those who don't speak in tongues. OK, sure... so you don't NEED this purpose to HELP yourself and thus, that may be a reason WHY God did not give you that gift... why give the gift of tongues to a person who proclaims their faith is enough? Why, God would be wasting the gift if He had given such a gift to them as they would never use it for themselves... right. But, they are MISSING something that Paul is teaching. Let's go back again to something I posted, remember this one?

v 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

You see? Gifts of the Holy Spirit aren't FOR YOU, my gift isn't FOR ME... it's for the Body so that God can PROFIT the Body. What this means is simple... if you have the gift of tongues and can pray or speak in an unknown language, YOU may never NEED it for YOUR edification. BUT God may need YOU to operate in your gift of speaking in tongues FOR others in the Body.

So my advice is to STOP questioning the purpose from this point on, because now you know the answer to your question about, "what purpose does it serve." People who pray alone, in tongues and they don't understand any of the words... the purpose according to Paul's lesson is so they may be edified.

BUT HOW can they be edified by a language they don't understand? This again is a been/there done/that gifting when it come that THAT specific profiting. If you don't pray in tongues and have not experienced the edification the profit/experience... then in our new understanding and maturity in learning about this lesson from Paul, we don't need to question in malice, this anymore, we CAN ACCEPT it because if we HEED Paul's lesson, we are mature due to the understanding of Paul's lesson. We also accept that since we do not have the gift, that we will also NEVER experience the spiritual LEVEL of edification one receives when they pray/speak in a Holy Spirit empowered gift that is called "tongues."

Yes, in malice:

v20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.

HOWEVER... I love the howevers because FOR THOSE who do not have this gift.

WHOA... we have a storm and the power just flickered. I'm saving what I have so far... man if I lost this...wow!

But for those who do not have this gift of speaking in tongues. The Body, you, me, all others can STILL profit from this specific gift called, different kindS of tongues. You see, another kind of tongues can be spoken, when some in the church are then speaking OUT LOUD in tongues, not one person in the church can understand what is being spoken but another will find that THEY HAVE the gift of INTERPRETING the gift of tongues.

v5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for[a] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

v13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

This shows us that 1 can interpret, even what they themselves are saying in tongues also. OK... HUH? From my expereince, I have listened to a "prophet" speak in tongues and then, interpret. They then continue in tongues and then interpret, pausing and switching from tongues to the interpretation until the ENTIRE message form God has been given. So you may ask, HOW do I know they aren't making it up? Glad you asked :) TEST the edification, test the exhortation, test the comfort and most of all, if it's about the future wait and test as to it coming to pass or not.

Telling me the serial number on the $10 in my wallet is NOT prophecy because there is no edification in that, BUT undiciplined churches fall all over themselves when divination is deceiving them into thinking a prophet is in their midst... it is a problem.

OK, commercial over... back to scripture and what I was talking about:

v 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

So again, others may speak OUT LOUD and this is proper in a corporate setting IF, the gift of interpretation of tongues is also manifested. This form of kindS of tongues is for the profit of the Body. ALL the listeners will profit and be edified, exhorted, or comforted.

OK, thats it for now... power has flickered again.

Let me say/ask one thing that is on my spirit...

Brian, I've asked you already in this thread and you answered and I responded, but I'm gonna press something:

v 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

Are you "zealous for your gift" and in your heart, desire to glorify God with the use of the gift in the Body? I ask this IN YOUR FACE question because I'm not present with you when you answered the last time I asked. This medium of "discussion" is lousy because I don't hear your voice, I don't see your expressions, thus I can't discern your heart in your answer. Brother... allow Paul's lesson to CHANGE you. SEEK EARNESTLY, ZEALOUSLY...

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 12:23 AM
Can you describe exactly what the true tongues would be and how it differs from the false ones?I went indepth concerning my personal experiences over this past 11 years or so in post #210. Well, some I testified in that post.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 12:34 AM
I agree. There is the genuine gift of tongues, genuinely given to individual Christians by the Holy Spirit. Paul had this gift. And there are those who display a false "prayer language," that has been foisted upon them by false Pentecostal doctrine. I would encourage anyone who has the genuine gift of tongues to exercise that gift. God has given it for a reason. But for those who feel "manipulated," I would cease and desist.Having been in a Pentecostal denom for 11 years now, I wouldn't say it's doctrinal that people speak in false tongues. Just that many churches do not "teach" WHAT their doctrine is all about and don't enforce "order" in accordance with 1 Cor 12-14. I've been to allot of different Pentecostal churches in a number of States and based on this experience, once one has been allowed to "teach" the "word or phrase" that leads to speaking in what is believed to be tongues, then an epidemic does happen and in the midst of chaos, some are speaking real tongues, usually the ones who speak softly while in a corporate setting.

Not saying that those yelling out chaotically (without order) are all speaking falsely because in an environment that is undiscipled, today many churches are basically modern day Corinthians, all speaking in true tongues out of order.

But I hold firm, when you can at least recognize a "language" where sentences are being spoken and nothing like a chant-like repetition of a phrase or a word, then the manifestation of Holy Spirit manifested tongues can be discerned from human spirit speaking of a phrase or word over and over.

EarlyCall
Aug 16th 2018, 01:51 AM
NO. The Bible didn't say it's a requirement for anything. But Paul encouraged it and it's one of the "gifts" that are greatly sought after. And God gives liberally to those to seek with their heart.

No, I don't believe it is a requirement either. As to seeking the gift, conceivably the, one should be able to seek all the gifts and expect to get them all, which must be just as true as if one can seek and obtain this gift we are discussing.

This is only logical then in light of what you say. Is it not? It is as I see it if your statement is correct.

EarlyCall
Aug 16th 2018, 01:57 AM
We're here to debate/discuss subjects like this. Just because it's a hot, controversial subject shouldn't dissuade you from putting in your "nickel's worth," and I'm glad we both did. God can correct any errors, if others feel so led.

Pentecostals initially felt that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was actually a "3rd work of grace," following Salvation, and Sanctification. Some may have felt it was just a "2nd work of grace." Many Christians in history felt that Spirit Baptism was supposed to be simultaneous with Salvation--it is just that some people only trust in God for Salvation in a nominal way, lacking a full knowledge of what genuine Salvation should be. For example, Apollos was a Christian with limited knowledge, until other believers showed him the "way of God more fully." (I hope I got the story right!)

Your point about differentiating the "tongues of men" from other tongues is interesting, but I don't have the answers. And I can't, at this time, answer your questions about Paul. I might ask the same question about John Mark, Silas, Titus, or Barnabas? Good question though!

Paul said he spoke in the tongues of men, which they did on the day of Pentecost, and Paul said he spoke in the tongues of angels. That is where I get it.

As for Acts, and the author claiming that one will speak in tongues when receiving the Holy Spirit and taking his examples from Acts, what we don't read in Acts is Paul speaking in tongues if my recollection serves me right. I find that very odd in light of the argument this author was trying to make.

Where he went wrong was to ignore evidence to the contrary because he was determined to prove what he wanted it to be.

ewq1938
Aug 16th 2018, 02:03 AM
Now, look at this verse: 13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

You are saying that a person speaks a language they KNOW... such a person does NOT have to pray that they "may" be able to interpret what they said. Have you ever prayed that you can interpret what you spoke?

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul is speaking about someone who is speaking and praying in a language they don't understand very well. It is a condemnation of such a practice because of how unfruitful it is. A person would need to pray for God to help them properly understand and translate something they didn't actually understand very well.

I know you disagree, but this entire passage is all about the idea of speaking and praying and hearing foreign languages, humans languages...nothing magical, angelic or heavenly about any of it. This passage was misunderstood long ago and out of that came this "tongue" that I don't believe is inspired.

Do you have a youtube link of someone you believe is speaking in tongues inspired by the HS?

ChangedByHim
Aug 16th 2018, 02:30 AM
But to answer your question, I don't know why *all* spoke in tongues on those 3 occasions? I've long asked that question myself. I know that's the basis for Pentecostal Doctrine on the subject. However, again, it has not been my experience, nor do I see explicit doctrine on the subject in the Bible. So I just leave it as it is, and let God decide who operates what gifts.
The question isn't whether it's Pentecostal doctrine (I'm not Pentecostal), but whether it's Bible doctrine. I believe in addition to the examples provided that there is indeed some explicit doctrine set forth in 1 Corinthians 14 in relation to both public and private use of tongues.


Paul seems to think that not all will prophesy or speak in tongues. There may be other explanations for that other than just different giftings, but I see no mandated statement from Paul that we should utilize all the gifts, individually--just that we should seek the higher, or more useful, gifts.
Certainly, not all will. But there are many variables as to why. To assume that it all rests on God's will would be incorrect in my opinion.



I could offer you *my* explanation as to why I think *all* spoke in tongues on 3 occasions. But then, maybe we should also explain why it is recorded as happening on *only* these 3 occasions? There is no developed theology on tongues, as far as I can see. It was just a major sign of a dispensational change in giftings in the world.
A case can be made in Acts 8 that tongues were in use, but it's not explicit. Beyond that, there is more reference and instruction on tongues in the NT than many other accepted practices.



Sometimes people temporarily use a gift, but are never intended to use a gift permanently. I have no proof that the 120 on the Day of Pentecost continued to operate in the gifts, among all 120? There is a story in the Bible where a number of Israelite leaders suddenly began to prophesy, but then never did it again (Num 11.25). Some judge them, as if people grew fearful of exercising their gift? Others, like myself, believe that God intended the gift to only be operated on rare occasions for a specific sign. Well the Bible is silent on that so we really can't assume. We do know that Paul continued to speak in tongues - a lot!


I really don't mean to offend Pentecostals who believe in a universal prayer language. I'm just trying to be honest with myself on behalf of others who have had similar questions. In any case, you should do what the Spirit leads you to do. And you should base what you do on Scripture.
I find every ounce of practice in my life related to tongues to be backed up by multiple passages of Scripture.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 02:31 AM
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul is speaking about someone who is speaking and praying in a language they don't understand very well. Lets start here then.

Paul states - For if I pray in an unknown tongue.

Ewq1938 states - in a language they don't know very well.

Paul is talking about a language not known AT ALL, thus "un" known.

You are talking about a language that is KNOWN, or NOT unknown. An unknown tongue is a language not understood AT ALL. If one knows ANY of the language, it is NOT unknown.

Tell me, if you know 25% of say, Spanish.... are you going to pray in that language, utilizing the 25% you DO know and then "hope" God gives you the gift of interpretation of Spanish to you can understand THAT 25% of Spanish you are speaking as a KNOWN language?

Now that is a serious question because I serve God in a Hispanic church and when we have a prayer service and the pastor gives the mic to a Hispanic to pray, they have asked in the past, can they pray in Spanish even though they speak fluent English. They are more comfortable in their native language when crying out to God.

NONE have prayed in English, praying also for interpretation. If they pause because they don't know the English word, they continue the sentence in Spanish and sometimes continue in Spanish or revert back to English.

ewq1938
Aug 16th 2018, 02:50 AM
Lets start here then.

Paul states - For if I pray in an unknown tongue.

Ewq1938 states - in a language they don't know very well.

Paul is talking about a language not known AT ALL, thus "un" known.


Incorrect. He did not use the word "unknown" at all.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 03:29 AM
Incorrect. He did not use the word "unknown" at all.When you view the Greek for 1 Cor 14:2, Paul is teaching that when tongues is spoken, the language is for/to God, understood only by God, no one understands what is being spoken. It isn't even the person speaking, it is the Holy Spirit giving the speech (or utterance). The lesson is not about WHAT the person can speak, what languages "they" know.

You are saying that some is understood, thus in opposition to what Paul is moved to teach.

v5 deepens the opposition of what you are posting. You are saying that it is a language the people KNOW how to speak, yet verse 5, Paul is desiring that ALL spoke in tongues. This reveals that tongues is about language NOT known by any.

ewq1938
Aug 16th 2018, 03:42 AM
When you view the Greek for 1 Cor 14:2, Paul is teaching that when tongues is spoken, the language is for/to God, understood only by God, no one understands what is being spoken.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This is about speaking in a foreign language the others do not know, that is why God is the only one to understand...because there isn't a translator in this example. Verses 3-11 explain all of this.

Also, verses 7-11 show what is found in most of the churches who think they are speaking in tongues but it's really just unintelligible noises.

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 03:49 AM
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This is about speaking in a foreign language the others do not know, that is why God is the only one to understand...because there isn't a translator in this example. Verses 3-11 explain all of this.

Also, verses 7-11 show what is found in most of the churches who think they are speaking in tongues but it's really just unintelligible noises.

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.The context (including v5) teaches that the speaker even doesn't know the language.

You are talking about "known" language by the speaker and the listeners don't know the language but Paul shows us in v5 and v13-14 that even the speaker doesn't know the language and even should PRAY they can interpret what the Spirit is uttering via a person's (or Paul's) spirit.

You are not relating with what Paul is teaching.

v19 is interesting also. Without the Holy Spirit interpreting what is being spoken when tongues manifests, Paul would rather say a few words HE KNOWS, than ANY that the Holy Spirit utters, but doesn't give him the interpretation so others can be edified by the words he and others don't understand.

ewq1938
Aug 16th 2018, 04:22 AM
You are not relating with what Paul is teaching.

Yeah the problem is I am seeing the same issue with your understanding of what Paul is writing so it's a bit of an impasse. I'm going to leave the readers with my understanding of the passage and let them decide what is correct.


1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an FORIEGN LANGUAGE speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


What good is it to speak in a language no hearer but God can understand?


1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in a FORIEGN LANGUAGE edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


If one speaks in a FORIEGN LANGUAGE that only he knows and no other, then he only edifies himself and does nothing good to those who are listening but cannot understand.


1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with FORIEGN LANGUAGES, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with FORIEGN LANGUAGES, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


It is better to speak in an understood language and prophesy rather than speak a FORIEGN LANGUAGE unless you interpret what you are saying in a language that the listeners understand.



1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with FORIEGN LANGUAGES, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?


But to come simply speaking in various languages that aren't understood profits no one.


1 Corinthians 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?


It is the same with a musical instrument. What good is playing one if it is randomly played with indistinct sounds? It is the same when you speak "in a tongue".


1 Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?


Certain trumpet sounds (short musical pieces) signified certain actions to be carried out. Have you ever heard a trumpet sound at the horse races that tells the racers to begin the race? What if the trumpet made a strange sound no one knew? It would be confusion.



1 Corinthians 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.


Do not utter "words" which are not easy to understand. If it is not easily understood by the listener then the speaker has done something wrong.



1 Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1 Corinthians 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.


915

915 barbaros {bar'-bar-os}


of uncertain derivation; TDNT - 1:546,94; adj


AV - barbarian 5, barbarous 1; 6


1) one whose speech is rude, rough and harsh
2) one who speaks a foreign or strange language which is not
understood by another
3) used by the Greeks of any foreigner ignorant of the Greek
language, whether mental or moral, with the added notion after
the Persian war, of rudeness and brutality. The word is used
in the N.T. without the idea of reproachfulness.

Take note esepcially of the last two definitions as this is exactly what Paul is addressing.


Do not speak and sound like a barbarian. This means do not speak ignorantly, in a mumbo-jumbo, gibberish, non-sense, false, made up by YOU "tongue".


1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.


The zealous wish to have evidence of the Holy Spirit so they have this unintelligible thing, they call it an unknown tongue, but it is what Paul said to not do.


1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

What I believe he is saying is this:

"If I pray in the words of a language I do not know or understand (like being able to pronounce the words of a Latin prayer but not understand what any of it means), then it is like I am praying but I have no idea what I am saying."

It reminds me how in "certain churches" when everything was conducted in Latin even though most people didn't understand Latin. WHen anyone prayed in Latin that did not know Latin, their spirit prayed and God knew that language but the person praying certainly didn't.



1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


It is naturally better to pray with understanding of what is being said in a prayer.


1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


"the unlearned" refers to anyone who doesn't know the foreign language being spoken in a church, whether in an open prayer or a "sermon".


Here if one speaks in a language unknown to anyone, then how is anyone supposed to know when to say "Amen" since they couldn't have understood any of it? They wouldn't because they cannot understand what is being said and that also applies to the speaker.



1 Corinthians 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with FORIEGN LANGUAGES more than ye all:


Paul spoke many FORIEGN LANGUAGES which is why he was so perfect to go forth and spread the gospel to foreign countries!


1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue/FORIEGN LANGUAGE.


And there you go!


It is better to speak 5 words someone can understand than 10,000 words in a language they cannot. I hope I don't have to explain why that is.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 11:47 AM
Yeah the problem is I am seeing the same issue with your understanding of what Paul is writing so it's a bit of an impasse. I'm going to leave the readers with my understanding of the passage and let them decide what is correct.As I began to read your post, you said this:


What good is it to speak in a language no hearer but God can understand?

Is this your perspective, or is it God's perspective?

Seems your post is based from your perspective, not from God's :hmm:

Paul's lesson points out 2 (among many more) important points, 1) An element of a personal relationship with God only by the power of the Holy Spirit and 2) Profit of the Body of Christ, also empowered by the Holy Spirit. The lesson spans BOTH purposes for this gift and each is uniquely identified. 1st, a element of the use of this gift concerning a personal relationship with God where the person's spirit is allowed to speak with God and this edifies the person. Paul stresses even, that this is ONLY one on one with God. That it is NOT for corporate related ministry. 2nd, augmented with the gift of interpretation, the relationship with God and how He profits "the Body" where all listening to tongues are edified. When God wants to edify a group who are worshiping Him, then manifestation of both speaking and interpreting are empowered by the Holy Spirit.

So, this leads to a question... when in a corporate setting and 2-3 speak in tongues, a language NO ONE who is present understands to include the speaker and another in the church is moved by the Holy Spirit to interpret the message from God, are you and those present, edified?

TrustGzus
Aug 16th 2018, 02:10 PM
Here is one concern I have with one aspect of the modern tongues movement. I’m not so sure that the “private prayer language” type thinking is biblical. Why? Bigger context of Corinthians. The gifts section starts in chapter 12.

1 Corinthians 12:1 (AV): Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

So Paul introduces the topic.

Paul gives some general comments....

1 Corinthians 12:4–6 (AV): 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

God gives different people different gifts. And even the same gifts might not look the same with every user of the gifts.

The next paragraph is big in acquiring a proper picture.

1 Corinthians 12:7–11 (AV): But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The Spirit gives gifts to each as he wills. This paragraph lists many gifts:

Wisdom
Knowledge
Faith
Healing
Miracles
Prophecy
Discernment
Tongues
Interpretation of tongues

But note how Paul begins that section....the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Our gifts are given to us for others to benefit.

The next section Paul uses a fantastic illustration by calling upon the human body.

1 Corinthians 12:12–26 (AV): For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

None of my body parts function in a way that is about or for that body part. All of my body parts perform functions that serve the rest of the body.

Keep in mind in the previous paragraph where Paul talked about the gifts being for the profit withal that tongues was in that list with the others.

Carrying on after his body illustration, Paul comes back around to that basic idea.

1 Corinthians 12:27–31 (AV): Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Tongues is part of this list with everything else. Not all have tongues and those who have it, based on this chapter, anyone who was given it was not given it to them for himself.

It seems to me more likely that the private prayer language is theology written back into the text by those who believe than really exegeted from the text. That concept runs contrary to this entire chapter.

I held the theology. I believe that I had to abandon the theology and the way I used particular verses in order to say that in light of the broader context.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 02:28 PM
I held the theology. I believe that I had to abandon the theology and the way I used particular verses in order to say that in light of the broader context.Have you ever listened to testimony or experienced/witnessed a person praying to God, to heal them... and He answers, they are healed?

Trivalee
Aug 16th 2018, 02:43 PM
No, I don't believe it is a requirement either. As to seeking the gift, conceivably the, one should be able to seek all the gifts and expect to get them all, which must be just as true as if one can seek and obtain this gift we are discussing.

This is only logical then in light of what you say. Is it not? It is as I see it if your statement is correct.

Yes, thanks for correcting me. We should indeed seek all gifts from God. But according to Paul, we may not necessarily receive all because we asked. God gives us according to his knowledge of our ability to use the gift to advance his Kingdom.

TrustGzus
Aug 16th 2018, 04:04 PM
Have you ever listened to testimony or experienced/witnessed a person praying to God, to heal them... and He answers, they are healed?

I haven’t witnessed it but have no problem believing that can happen. But that’s another thread. This is about tongues.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 05:06 PM
I haven’t witnessed it but have no problem believing that can happen. But that’s another thread. This is about tongues.The point... if healing is done for "one" person in the Body to profit that one person who is/had praying/ed and you have no problem with this, why can't any of the other gifts be accepted for the profit of one? The "Body" is still being profited. Also, tongues is not LIMITED to profiting only one, many can be profited as well when exercised in order of the teaching when the gift of interpreting of tongues is manifest also.

Paul teaches us that the gifts are a profit for all in the Body (you focused on this) however, this does not limit any of the gifts to NOT be for an individual... which seems to be where you went with your long post which you concluded that this specific gift is ended for ALL.

TrustGzus
Aug 16th 2018, 05:51 PM
The point... if healing is done for "one" person in the Body to profit that one person who is/had praying/ed and you have no problem with this, why can't any of the other gifts be accepted for the profit of one? The "Body" is still being profited. Also, tongues is not LIMITED to profiting only one, many can be profited as well when exercised in order of the teaching when the gift of interpreting of tongues is manifest also.

Paul teaches us that the gifts are a profit for all in the Body (you focused on this) however, this does not limit any of the gifts to NOT be for an individual... which seems to be where you went with your long post which you concluded that this specific gift is ended for ALL.

I think we are talking past each other. My point, and as I understand Paul, is that gifts are others centered. With a gift, one may minister to one person in a particular moment or many people. But the gift is exercised for/to the other members of the body.

Praying to be healed and God healing isn’t a spiritual gift. It’s a prayer and a positive answer. Doesn’t mean the individual has a healing gift and used it on oneself. A gift of healing would involve repeatedly healing people most likely via touching like Jesus and Peter did.

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 05:58 PM
I think we are talking past each other. My point, and as I understand Paul, is that gifts are others centered. With a gift, one may minister to one person in a particular moment or many people. But the gift is exercised for/to the other members of the body.

Praying to be healed and God healing isn’t a spiritual gift. It’s a prayer and a positive answer. Doesn’t mean the individual has a healing gift and used it on oneself. A gift of healing would involve repeatedly healing people most likely via touching like Jesus and Peter did.

Let me toss this perspective your way :)

The gifts are NOT "other" centered. The gifts are God centered, thus WHY He allows them or uses them to profit the Body, be it FOR one person or many :hmm:

Here is why we should have this perspective... Paul had to go into Corinth to correct the literal sin and evil they were doing and WHILE they were being sinful and completely in chaos, God was STILL allowing His gifts of the Holy Spirit to manifest.

randyk
Aug 16th 2018, 06:15 PM
The question isn't whether it's Pentecostal doctrine (I'm not Pentecostal), but whether it's Bible doctrine. I believe in addition to the examples provided that there is indeed some explicit doctrine set forth in 1 Corinthians 14 in relation to both public and private use of tongues.


True. Let me just say where I am. I'm not true blue Pentecostal either. My theology originates from Lutheran doctrine, although Lutheran practice falls well beneath my own personal standard. I think true Lutheran doctrine has been severely watered down. I would define my theology as Protestant.

I'm much more Charismatic than I am Pentecostal. I disagree with a whole host of beliefs in my Pentecostal Church, including Faith Doctrine, the Spiritual Gifts are for all of us, tongues as the sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and Pretribulationism, among others.

Where I agree with the Pentecostals, and am a Pentecostal, is on belief in the spiritual gifts and on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. We need to not just believe in Christian doctrine but we must be born again, allowing Christ to live in us, putting to death our old man. Then, we need to allow Christ to manifest himself through us, not just in the new life we have in Christ, but also in the manifestation of spiritual gifts, as the Holy Spirit leads us.



Certainly, not all will. But there are many variables as to why. To assume that it all rests on God's will would be incorrect in my opinion.


And yet, the gifts of the Spirit are explicitly said to be determined by the Holy Spirit, ie the will of God. I do think many Christians simply do not exercise the gifts of the Spirit because they have been taught they are not for today/Dispensationalism. But for those who do accept the gifts, as I do, I think we should let the Holy Spirit determine what gifts we operate. To seek all the gifts is fine. I just think we'll find that we don't operate all of the gifts, simply because the Holy Spirit does not will it.



A case can be made in Acts 8 that tongues were in use, but it's not explicit. Beyond that, there is more reference and instruction on tongues in the NT than many other accepted practices.

Well the Bible is silent on that so we really can't assume. We do know that Paul continued to speak in tongues - a lot!

I find every ounce of practice in my life related to tongues to be backed up by multiple passages of Scripture.

By all means, do as the Holly Spirit leads! :)

Slug1
Aug 16th 2018, 06:38 PM
But for those who do accept the gifts, as I do, I think we should let the Holy Spirit determine what gifts we operate. To seek all the gifts is fine. I just think we'll find that we don't operate all of the gifts, simply because the Holy Spirit does not will it.
Seems that we also have to understand that "when" a person prays over themselves or another for healing and God allows the gift of healing to manifest, this doesn't mean the gift will manifest each time they pray for healing.

In my personal experience, I cannot fathom the number of people I have prayed for concerning healing. Especially when I was an elder and the Bible specifically calls for the sick to call on elders for healing. Over the years I've experienced God answer MANY prayers for healing. I've experienced God NOT answer MANY prayers for healing. If I was to actually be able to calculate a percentage of how many prayed for vs how many healed, the percentage would not be high. However, each and every time I've been "prompted or moved" by the Holy Spirit to lay on of hands/anoint with oil and pray for healing, the percentage is 100% healed. In the last 11 years AFTER coming out of cessationism... I can count on one hand the number of times I've been prompted to pray for healing and God glorify Himself in healing the person.

Do I have the gift of healing, I actually do not feel I do. What 2 gifts I was led to pray for, I can honestly say I was led to pray for them in that when we pray IN God's will, He will answer (1 John 5:14-15 and James 1:6), the healing I mention is a prime example.

Now, the underlined part of your post. I side this way also in that based on the circumstances, God can and does manifest any of the gifts NEEDED for profit in any given situation. For example, if a person does operate in the gift of discernment and God wants to heal a person and the Holy Spirit manifests healing upon the service and no one BUT the one who has been given the gift of discernment answers the prompting... they go to the person and pray for healing and the person is healed by God. That person who operates in the gift of discernment may never again experience the gifting of healing ever again.

ewq1938
Aug 16th 2018, 11:20 PM
So, this leads to a question... when in a corporate setting and 2-3 speak in tongues, a language NO ONE who is present understands to include the speaker and another in the church is moved by the Holy Spirit to interpret the message from God, are you and those present, edified?

No, because that "language" is a false one IMO. You believe there is a true, and a false one. The difference between us is I have yet to find the true Holy Spirit inspired tongues spoken in any church so far that I have had access to which includes in person and videos of claims of the true tongues. So, for me I have found a 100 percent rate of the tongues not being the true tongues. I don't believe in cessation at all because God can inspire and cause any miracles now that we read of in the bible but this "tongues" that I have witnessed isn't what is found in the bible except the parts where Paul speaks against unclear noises/sounds which IMO is 100 percent of what is claimed to be the true tongues.

I feel you and I will simply repeat the same things over and over so as I said, let the readers decide what is true or not. But, still waiting for a youtube link of what you feel is true tongues being spoken. I think it would be good for all to listen and decide if it feels Holy Ghost inspired :)

TrustGzus
Aug 17th 2018, 12:13 AM
Let me toss this perspective your way :)

The gifts are NOT "other" centered. The gifts are God centered, thus WHY He allows them or uses them to profit the Body, be it FOR one person or many :hmm:

Well, I’m not going to argue that they’re God centered. You have a very Calvinist reply. Soli Deo gloria.

I don’t think that negates them being others centered too.

Back to my point, Friend. The body illustration and Paul saying he gives gifts “to profit withal”. Tongues not interpreted does not profit withal. Paul is very clear. No interpreter. No tongues. If public uninterpreted tongues doesn’t profit withal, how does secret tongues profit withal?


Here is why we should have this perspective... Paul had to go into Corinth to correct the literal sin and evil they were doing and WHILE they were being sinful and completely in chaos, God was STILL allowing His gifts of the Holy Spirit to manifest.

I agree with that. I do not see what that has to do with my concern about private tongues not having a body purpose which is the point of gifts——use for the body.

randyk
Aug 17th 2018, 12:28 AM
Seems that we also have to understand that "when" a person prays over themselves or another for healing and God allows the gift of healing to manifest, this doesn't mean the gift will manifest each time they pray for healing.

In my personal experience, I cannot fathom the number of people I have prayed for concerning healing. Especially when I was an elder and the Bible specifically calls for the sick to call on elders for healing. Over the years I've experienced God answer MANY prayers for healing. I've experienced God NOT answer MANY prayers for healing. If I was to actually be able to calculate a percentage of how many prayed for vs how many healed, the percentage would not be high. However, each and every time I've been "prompted or moved" by the Holy Spirit to lay on of hands/anoint with oil and pray for healing, the percentage is 100% healed. In the last 11 years AFTER coming out of cessationism... I can count on one hand the number of times I've been prompted to pray for healing and God glorify Himself in healing the person.

Do I have the gift of healing, I actually do not feel I do. What 2 gifts I was led to pray for, I can honestly say I was led to pray for them in that when we pray IN God's will, He will answer (1 John 5:14-15 and James 1:6), the healing I mention is a prime example.

Now, the underlined part of your post. I side this way also in that based on the circumstances, God can and does manifest any of the gifts NEEDED for profit in any given situation. For example, if a person does operate in the gift of discernment and God wants to heal a person and the Holy Spirit manifests healing upon the service and no one BUT the one who has been given the gift of discernment answers the prompting... they go to the person and pray for healing and the person is healed by God. That person who operates in the gift of discernment may never again experience the gifting of healing ever again.

To be honest, brother, I'm very interested in this subject because I do not understand the basis for Paul's teaching on the spiritual gifts. I really wish I understood! So much of my own views is tainted by my Charismatic/Pentecostal background. I do agree that based on the fact *all* spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost, I have to assume that all *can* in theory practice tongues. It really depends on whether the Holy Spirit wills it.

According to Paul, God tends to emphasize certain gifts with certain people, based on what their ministry is. If they are called into ministry, they likely have a number of gifts, for the simple reason that more ministry is going on publicly to meet a number of needs.

But having been under a number of different pastors I can safely say there are different emphases from one to another. Down in CA, at the mega-church Melodyland Christian Center, I witnessed a tremendous healing gift ministered through Pastor Ralph Wilkerson. We had people coming over from Disneyland every Sunday evening to see this "church in the round"--a former nightclub spot. Many got healed.

Some churches I've been in had pastors with a definite teaching gift. Lessons were outlined, point by point, and the truth built up maturity in Christians, and laid a foundation for them to minister to their families and to others at their work place. Currently, I have a pastor who tends to focus on a combination of preaching and healing, as well as evangelism.

But I agree with you. When we need discernment, we should be able to get the gift of discernment. When we pray for healing we should be able to get the gift of healing. And absolutely, we should pray for all, but not expect instant healing most the time. This is simply because we "see through a glass darkly," and do not understand God's will in the situation in each case.

But until I understand the spiritual gifts better, I really can't say much more. I think we have a lot of agreement on this...perhaps? :)

Slug1
Aug 17th 2018, 12:38 AM
Well, I’m not going to argue that they’re God centered. You have a very Calvinist reply. Soli Deo gloria.

I don’t think that negates them being others centered too.

Back to my point, Friend. The body illustration and Paul saying he gives gifts “to profit withal”. Tongues not interpreted does not profit withal. Paul is very clear. No interpreter. No tongues. If public uninterpreted tongues doesn’t profit withal, how does secret tongues profit withal? How? Verses are about personal and corporate purpose BOTH of which is profit for the Body because "you" are the Body and if "you" spoke in tongues alone as Paul instructs, then "you" are being profited. In none of the lesson does Paul forbid tongues manifesting on a personal one on one with God BUT, if that is how/when tongues is manifested, then keep it personal and one on one.

You seem to be saying that Paul's lesson forbids personal one on one speaking in tongues. Paul does not forbid such manifestation, all he does is instruct on when this form of "kindS" of tongues manifests, keep it private. When the another "kindS" of tongues manifests and a person is led to speak out loud, expect another in the midst of the group to manifest interpretation of what is being spoken.


I agree with that. I do not see what that has to do with my concern about private tongues not having a body purpose which is the point of gifts——use for the body.The reason I raised that issue, is to point out that we can't say any of the gifts aren't "for" something because while the Corinthians were still sinning, even during services, the gifts were still manifesting... so we can't ever limit them. They are never people centered, they are God centered and while they profit the Body, even undiscipled Christians who are still sinning, God is still glorified.

BTW, my answer is not a Calvinist reply, I'm just relaying WHAT the scriptures teach. You can say a very disciplined reply :)

ChangedByHim
Aug 17th 2018, 12:44 AM
If public uninterpreted tongues doesn’t profit withal, how does secret tongues profit withal?


Simple question: How does your personal prayer life profit others?

Slug1
Aug 17th 2018, 01:03 AM
To be honest, brother, I'm very interested in this subject because I do not understand the basis for Paul's teaching on the spiritual gifts. I really wish I understood! So much of my own views is tainted by my Charismatic/Pentecostal background. I do agree that based on the fact *all* spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost, I have to assume that all *can* in theory practice tongues. It really depends on whether the Holy Spirit wills it.

According to Paul, God tends to emphasize certain gifts with certain people, based on what their ministry is. If they are called into ministry, they likely have a number of gifts, for the simple reason that more ministry is going on publicly to meet a number of needs.

But having been under a number of different pastors I can safely say there are different emphases from one to another. Down in CA, at the mega-church Melodyland Christian Center, I witnessed a tremendous healing gift ministered through Pastor Ralph Wilkerson. We had people coming over from Disneyland every Sunday evening to see this "church in the round"--a former nightclub spot. Many got healed.

Some churches I've been in had pastors with a definite teaching gift. Lessons were outlined, point by point, and the truth built up maturity in Christians, and laid a foundation for them to minister to their families and to others at their work place. Currently, I have a pastor who tends to focus on a combination of preaching and healing, as well as evangelism.

But I agree with you. When we need discernment, we should be able to get the gift of discernment. When we pray for healing we should be able to get the gift of healing. And absolutely, we should pray for all, but not expect instant healing most the time. This is simply because we "see through a glass darkly," and do not understand God's will in the situation in each case.

But until I understand the spiritual gifts better, I really can't say much more. I think we have a lot of agreement on this...perhaps? :)I don't think we will ever "understand" the gifts in any FULL way. But, when we DON'T believe and express this unfaithfulness, ya remember how the scriptures reveal that even Jesus had a difficult time in Nazareth with the healing of others? All because of unbelief :hmm:

How does one "get" discipled in HOW to exercise a spiritual gift? I don't believe any full discipleship is possible except to do what Paul did and teach order only. After that, it's a matter of willingness to be USED by God and when allows God to move, this is by ones trust and faith to ACT when He says to act... then one should never have difficulty in exercising their spiritual gift.

I do stress in class when the topic is spiritual gifts, we DO need to know WHAT is revealed and what Paul IS teaching as well as all related teachings no matter who was the writer. That way when even false signs are manifested or fake, just by proper discipleship we can still discern by the knowledge alone. The scriptures call this testing the spirits.

It is clear that supernatural signs and wonders are happening today, if the gifts of the Holy Spirit HAVE ended (no more signs/wonders), then that means ALL supernatural manifested gifts are not from God... and this is a VERY dangerous position to be in, to CALL any and all gifts that are manifested... not of God.

Just the fact that scripture insists that we test the spirits, means ALL spirits are manifesting, the Holy Spirit, human spirits AND demonic spirits. Only two of these can produce supernatural signs/wonders (true or imitation/false) because the human spirit can only "fake" the gifts and YES, tongues is one that IS faked.

Slug1
Aug 17th 2018, 01:06 AM
Simple question: How does your personal prayer life profit others?Oh, I'm putting this question in my notes :)

TrustGzus
Aug 17th 2018, 01:14 AM
Simple question: How does your personal prayer life profit others?

When we pray, part of our prayers are intercession. Where in Scripture does it teach us that the content of tongues is intercession?

randyk
Aug 17th 2018, 04:24 AM
I don't think we will ever "understand" the gifts in any FULL way. But, when we DON'T believe and express this unfaithfulness, ya remember how the scriptures reveal that even Jesus had a difficult time in Nazareth with the healing of others? All because of unbelief :hmm:

How does one "get" discipled in HOW to exercise a spiritual gift? I don't believe any full discipleship is possible except to do what Paul did and teach order only. After that, it's a matter of willingness to be USED by God and when allows God to move, this is by ones trust and faith to ACT when He says to act... then one should never have difficulty in exercising their spiritual gift.

I do stress in class when the topic is spiritual gifts, we DO need to know WHAT is revealed and what Paul IS teaching as well as all related teachings no matter who was the writer. That way when even false signs are manifested or fake, just by proper discipleship we can still discern by the knowledge alone. The scriptures call this testing the spirits.

It is clear that supernatural signs and wonders are happening today, if the gifts of the Holy Spirit HAVE ended (no more signs/wonders), then that means ALL supernatural manifested gifts are not from God... and this is a VERY dangerous position to be in, to CALL any and all gifts that are manifested... not of God.

Just the fact that scripture insists that we test the spirits, means ALL spirits are manifesting, the Holy Spirit, human spirits AND demonic spirits. Only two of these can produce supernatural signs/wonders (true or imitation/false) because the human spirit can only "fake" the gifts and YES, tongues is one that IS faked.

Good post! Thanks.

ChangedByHim
Aug 17th 2018, 05:08 AM
When we pray, part of our prayers are intercession. Where in Scripture does it teach us that the content of tongues is intercession?

If you prayed in tongues you'd know that intercession in the Spirit is a big part of praying in tongues. Don't take this personal because I'm not directing it at you, but I'm always hearing people who don't have the gift telling people who do have the gift what it's for.

TrustGzus
Aug 17th 2018, 10:24 AM
If you prayed in tongues you'd know that intercession in the Spirit is a big part of praying in tongues. Don't take this personal because I'm not directing it at you, but I'm always hearing people who don't have the gift telling people who do have the gift what it's for.

No problem with “personal”. However, even though I’ve never spoken in tongues, my wife was a tongues speaker, I went to a charismatic Bible college, and I was a member in charismatic churches for two decades and taught from many pulpits many times. My pro-charismatic theology was robust.