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Brother Mark
Feb 14th 2008, 02:53 PM
1 Cor 15:29

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
NASU


The context is the resurrection of the dead. Paul is making a point that the dead will rise again. Then he throws this verse in there. What do you guys make of it?

Sold Out
Feb 14th 2008, 03:05 PM
1 Cor 15:29

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
NASU


The context is the resurrection of the dead. Paul is making a point that the dead will rise again. Then he throws this verse in there. What do you guys make of it?

I've been taught that Paul was addressing those who WERE doing that (in Corinth) - basically debunking the practice or nullifying it.

Brother Mark
Feb 14th 2008, 03:07 PM
I've been taught that Paul was addressing those who WERE doing that (in Corinth) - basically debunking the practice or nullifying it.

How do we get that from the context? Where did he debunk it in this passage?

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 03:15 PM
1 Cor 15:29

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
NASU


The context is the resurrection of the dead. Paul is making a point that the dead will rise again. Then he throws this verse in there. What do you guys make of it?

It seems to me that Paul is using a belief that they practiced to argue for the resurrection of the dead.

In other words, Paul is saying, "Look, you guys believe that you can be baptized for a person who is already dead. Why would you do this if you don't believe there will be a resurrection? It would be pointless."

He's not supporting the idea of baptism for the dead, but rather using their own beliefs to show them that they believe in the resurrection to come.

The old commentator Albert Barnes has a good discussion of this in his commentary on the New Testament:

Albert Barnes
1Co 15:29 -
Else what shall they do ... - The apostle here resumes the argument for the resurrection which was interrupted at 1Co_15:19. He goes on to state further consequences which must follow from the denial of this doctrine, and thence infers that the doctrine must be true. There is, perhaps, no passage of the New Testament in respect to which there has been a greater variety of interpretation than this; and the views of expositors now by no means harmonize in regard to its meaning. It is possible that Paul may here refer to some practice or custom which existed in his time respecting baptism, the knowledge of which is now lost. The various opinions which have been entertained in regard to this passage, together with an examination of them, may be seen in Pool’s Synopsis, Rosenmuller, and Bloomfield. It may be not useless just to refer to some of them, that the perplexity of commentators may be seen:
(1) It has been held by some that by “the dead” here is meant the Messiah who was put to death, the plural being used for the singular, meaning “the dead one.”
(2) by others, that the word “baptized” here is taken in the sense of washing, cleansing, purifying, as in Mat_8:4; Heb_9:10; and that the sense is, that the dead were carefully washed and purified when buried, with the hope of the resurrection, and, as it were, preparatory to that.
(3) by others, that to be “baptized for the dead” means to be baptized as dead, being baptized into Christ, and buried with him in baptism, and that by their immersion they were regarded as dead.
(4) by others, that the apostle refers to a custom of vicarious baptism, or being baptized for those who were dead, referring to the practice of having some person baptized in the place of one who had died without baptism. This was the opinion of Grotius, Michaelis, Tertullian, and Ambrose. Such was the estimate which was formed, it is supposed, of the importance of baptism, that when one had died without being baptized, some other person was baptized over his dead body in his place. That this custom prevailed in the church after the time of Paul, has been abundantly proved by Grotius, and is generally admitted. But the objections to this interpretation are obvious:
(a) There is no evidence that such a custom prevailed in the time of Paul.
(b) It cannot be believed that Paul would give countenance to a custom so senseless and so contrary to the Scripture, or that he would make it the foundation of a solemn argument.
(c) It does not accord with the strain and purpose of his argument. If this custom had been referred to, his design would have led him to say, “What will become of them for whom others have been baptized? Are we to believe that they have perished?”
(d) It is far more probable that the custom referred to in this opinion arose from an erroneous interpretation of this passage of Scripture, than that it existed in the time of Paul.
(5) there remain two other opinions, both of which are plausible, and one of which is probably the true one. One is, that the word baptized is used here as it is in Mat_20:22-23; Mar_10:39; Luk_12:50, in the sense of being overwhelmed with calamities, trials, and sufferings; and as meaning that the apostles and others were subjected to great trials on account of the dead, that is, in the hope of the resurrection; or with the expectation that the dead would rise. This is the opinion of Lightfoot, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Homberg, Krause, and of Prof. Robinson (see the Lexicon article Βαπτίζω Baptizō), and has much that is plausible. That the word is thus used to denote a deep sinking into calamities, there can be no doubt. And that the apostles and early Christians subjected themselves, or were subjected to great and overwhelming calamities on account of the hope of the resurrection, is equally clear. This interpretation, also, agrees with the general tenor of the argument; and is an argument for the resurrection. And it implies that this was the full and constant belief of all who endured these trials, that there would be a resurrection of the dead. The argument would be, that they should be slow to adopt an opinion which would imply that all their sufferings were endured for nothing, and that God had supported them in this in vain; that God had plunged them into all these sorrows, and had sustained them in them only to disappoint them. That this view is plausible, and that it suits the strain of remark in the following verses, is evident. But there are objections to it:
(a) It is not the usual and natural meaning of the word “baptize.”
(b) A metaphorical use of a word should not be resorted to unless necessary.
(c) The literal meaning of the word here will as well meet the design of the apostle as the metaphorical.
(d) This interpretation does not relieve us from any of the difficulties in regard to the phrase “for the dead;” and,
(e) It is altogether more natural to suppose that the apostle would derive his argument from the baptism of all who were Christians, than from the figurative baptism of a few who went into the perils of martyrdom - The other opinion, therefore, is, that the apostle here refers to baptism as administered to all believers.
This is the most correct opinion; is the most simple, and best meets the design of the argument. According to this, it means that they had been baptized with the hope and expectation of a resurrection of the dead. They had received this as one of the leading doctrines of the gospel when they were baptized. It was a part of their full and firm belief that the dead would rise. The argument according to this interpretation is, that this was an essential article of the faith of a Christian; that it was embraced by all; that it constituted a part of their very profession; and that for anyone to deny it was to deny that which entered into the very foundation of the Christian faith.
If they embraced a different doctrine, if they denied the doctrine of the resurrection, they struck a blow at the very nature of Christianity, and dashed all the hopes which had been cherished and expressed at their baptism. And what could they do? What would become of them! What would be the destiny of all who were thus baptized? Was it to be believed that all their hopes at baptism were vain and that they would all perish? As such a belief could not be entertained, the apostle infers that, if they held to Christianity at all, they must hold to this doctrine as a part of their very profession. According to this view, the phrase “for the dead” means, with reference to the dead; with direct allusion to the condition of the dead, and their hopes; with a belief that the dead will rise. It is evident that the passage is elliptical, and this seems to be as probable as any interpretation which has been suggested. Mr. Locke says, frankly, “What this baptizing for the dead was, I know not; but it seems, by the following verses, to be something wherein they exposed themselves to the danger of death.” Tyndal translates it, “over the dead.” Doddridge renders it, “in the room of the dead, who are just fallen in the cause of Christ, but are yet supported by a succession of new converts, who immediately offer themselves to fill up their places, as ranks of soldiers that advance to the combat in the room of their companions who have just been slain in their sight.”

God bless!

Sold Out
Feb 14th 2008, 03:16 PM
These are the notes from my study bible:

b. Note –There existed among some of the Jewish believers at Corinth a superstitious practice of baptizing a living person in the place of some convert who had died before that rite had been administered to him. Though Paul did not endorse the practice, he pointed out the meaningless of it if there was no resurrection.

sudds
Feb 14th 2008, 03:41 PM
I never understood this statement by Paul until I witnessed an incident that relates to this.

I have a cousin who believed in Jesus and was very knowledgeable in the Bible. Yet, he didn't believe in the literal act of water baptism. He was convinced that accepting Jesus was a spiritual matter and "if your heart was changed, you were in a saved state." (I'm certainly not arguing this issue here).

However, my cousin later took the action (act of faith) and was immersed in water. His reason was that his son, daughter, and granddaughter were wanting to become Christians and they did believe in literal baptism. So in essence,he was being baptized for the spiritual dead.

RogerW
Feb 14th 2008, 04:57 PM
1 Cor 15:29

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
NASU

The context is the resurrection of the dead. Paul is making a point that the dead will rise again. Then he throws this verse in there. What do you guys make of it?

Greetings Brother Mark,

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Paul spent much time explaining how Christ has indeed arisen from the dead, because some doubted and even denied that Christ has been resurrected from the dead. Those who come immediately to mind are the Sadducees who denied there is any resurrection (Lu 20:27). Paul argues that if there is no resurrection, then Christ is not resurrected, and neither will we be resurrected. Paul sums up this thought saying, "we are of all men most miserable."

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Why are we baptized into Christ's death, if the dead rise not at all? Paul's argument is this, it makes no sense to be baptized into Christ, who is dead, if the dead do not rise at all, why bother, what good will it do?

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But Christ is risen from the dead, and we who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death, therefore buried with Him by baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too are raised up to newness of life.

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Many Blessings,
RW

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 06:10 PM
Greetings Brother Mark,

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Paul spent much time explaining how Christ has indeed arisen from the dead, because some doubted and even denied that Christ has been resurrected from the dead. Those who come immediately to mind are the Sadducees who denied there is any resurrection (Lu 20:27). Paul argues that if there is no resurrection, then Christ is not resurrected, and neither will we be resurrected. Paul sums up this thought saying, "we are of all men most miserable."

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Why are we baptized into Christ's death, if the dead rise not at all? Paul's argument is this, it makes no sense to be baptized into Christ, who is dead, if the dead do not rise at all, why bother, what good will it do?

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But Christ is risen from the dead, and we who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death, therefore buried with Him by baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too are raised up to newness of life.

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Many Blessings,
RW
Good thoughts, Roger. The only problem with this view is that the word translated "dead" in 1 Cor. 15:29 is plural, not singular, making it very doubtful that Christ is the "dead" that they are baptized "for."

RogerW
Feb 14th 2008, 06:57 PM
Good thoughts, Roger. The only problem with this view is that the word translated "dead" in 1 Cor. 15:29 is plural, not singular, making it very doubtful that Christ is the "dead" that they are baptized "for."

Greetings Matt14,

You'll have to show me how you have arrived at this conclusion. The Greek word 'dead' is translated from is nekros which means - from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun):--dead.

Nekros then simply means dead; or absense of life, where the primary nekus a corpse. There are several verses in Scripture where we find the same Greek word nekros with very clear reference to a singular dead. Here is one.

Mt 14:2 And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 07:33 PM
Greetings Matt14,

You'll have to show me how you have arrived at this conclusion. The Greek word 'dead' is translated from is nekros which means - from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun):--dead.

Nekros then simply means dead; or absense of life, where the primary nekus a corpse. There are several verses in Scripture where we find the same Greek word nekros with very clear reference to a singular dead. Here is one.

Mt 14:2 And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

Many Blessings,
RW
Hi Roger,

Here is the Greek breakdown of the passage:


1Co 15:29 επει1893 CONJ τι5101 I-ASN ποιησουσιν4160 V-FAI-3P οι3588 T-NPM βαπτιζομενοι907 V-PPP-NPM υπερ5228 PREP των3588 T-GPM νεκρων3498 A-GPM ει1487 COND ολως3654 ADV νεκροι3498 A-NPM ουκ3756 PRT-N εγειρονται1453 V-PPI-3P τι5101 I-ASN και2532 CONJ βαπτιζονται907 V-PPI-3P υπερ5228 PREP των3588 T-GPM νεκρων3498 A-GPM

Nekros is indeed a singular form, but the word here (nekron) is in the genetive case, and is plural and masculine. That's what the GPM beside the word stands for: Genetive, Plural, Masculine.

Because of this, the New American Standard Bible translates the passage in this way:

1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

The newer English Standard Version has this translation:

1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Hope this helps explain what I meant. God bless!

RogerW
Feb 14th 2008, 08:13 PM
Hi Roger,
Here is the Greek breakdown of the passage:

1Co 15:29 επει1893 CONJ τι5101 I-ASN ποιησουσιν4160 V-FAI-3P οι3588 T-NPM βαπτιζομενοι907 V-PPP-NPM υπερ5228 PREP των3588 T-GPM νεκρων3498 A-GPM ει1487 COND ολως3654 ADV νεκροι3498 A-NPM ουκ3756 PRT-N εγειρονται1453 V-PPI-3P τι5101 I-ASN και2532 CONJ βαπτιζονται907 V-PPI-3P υπερ5228 PREP των3588 T-GPM νεκρων3498 A-GPM

Nekros is indeed a singular form, but the word here (nekron) is in the genetive case, and is plural and masculine. That's what the GPM beside the word stands for: Genetive, Plural, Masculine.

Because of this, the New American Standard Bible translates the passage in this way:

1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for any dead man?

The newer English Standard Version has this translation:

1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

If there is no resurrection from the dead, then why be baptized on behalf of any dead man?

Hope this helps explain what I meant. God bless!

Hi Matt14,

Thanks for the brief lesson of the Greek. Perhaps I am plain daft, but I still don't see how this makes the conclusions I've drawn improbable? Let's read the passage in one more translation - The Concordant Version

Else what shall they be doing who are being baptized for the sake of the dead? if the dead actually are not being roused, why are they being baptized also for their sake?

Another way to ask: Why are you being baptized for the sake of the dead (Christ), if the dead (Christ) are not actually raised to life from the dead? If you doubt the resurrection of Christ, then it makes no sense that you would be baptized for the sake of any dead man.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Feb 14th 2008, 08:24 PM
"the dead"=ek ton nekron see explanation in bold below:)


"DEAD" AND "THE DEAD".

The word nekros (Noun and Adjective) has different meanings, according as it is used in different connections:--

1. With the Article (hoi nekroi) it denotes dead bodies, or corpses or carcasses in the grave, apart from the personality they once had. This is the O.T. idiom also. See Sept. Gen. 23:3, 4, 6, 8. Deut. 18:11; 28:26. Jer. 7:33; 9:22; 19:7. Ezek. 37:9. See notes on Matt. 22:31. 1Cor. 15:35.

2. Without the Article (nekroi) it denotes the persons who were once alive but who are now alive no longer : i.e. dead persons as distinct from dead bodies. Cp. Deut. 14:1. Judg. 4:22. Lam. 3:6. And see notes on Matt. 22:32. Acts 26:23. 1Cor. 15:12, 13, 15, 16. Heb. 13:20, &c.

3. With a Preposition, but without the Article, which may be latent in the Preposition (ek nekron), it denotes out from among dead people. See notes on Mark 9:9, 10. Luke 16:30, 31. Acts 10:41. Rom. 6:13; 10:7, 9; 11:15. 1Cor. 15:12-20. Heb. 11:19.

4. With a Preposition, and with the Article; e.g. 'ek ton nekron, it denotes emphatically out from among the dead bodies, or corpses. Cp. Eph. 5:14. Col. 1:18; 2:12.

5. The bearing of this on 1Pet. 4:6 will be better seen if we note that we have nekroi (See No. 2 above), meaning people who were then dead, but who had had the Gospel preached. (Ap. 121. 4) to them while they were alive; and this is confirmed by the Gr. Particle, men ( = although) in the next clause, which is ignored both by the A.V. and R.V. The verse reads thus : "For to this end to those who are (now) dead was the Gospel preached, that though they might be judged in the flesh according to [the will of] men (*), yet they might live [again, in resurrection], according to [the will of] God, as regards [the] spirit"; i.e. in spiritual bodies, spoken of in 1Cor. 15:44, 45.

6. To this end -- to give those to whom the apostle wrote this hope -- the Gospel was preached to them, as described in 1Pet. 1:12, 25. The hope of glory was thus set over against their sufferings (1Pet. 1:11; 4:13).

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 08:28 PM
Hi Matt14,

Thanks for the brief lesson of the Greek. Perhaps I am plain daft, but I still don't see how this makes the conclusions I've drawn improbable? Let's read the passage in one more translation - The Concordant Version

Else what shall they be doing who are being baptized for the sake of the dead? if the dead actually are not being roused, why are they being baptized also for their sake?

Another way to ask: Why are you being baptized for the sake of the dead (Christ), if the dead (Christ) are not actually raised to life from the dead? If you doubt the resurrection of Christ, then it makes no sense that you would be baptized for the sake of any dead man.

Many Blessings,
RW
I was just pointing out that the "dead" cannot refer to Christ, because "dead" here is plural. I'm not really trying to disprove your conclusions, just pointing out that the Greek does not seem to refer to Christ as "the dead."

Thanks, and God bless!

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 08:29 PM
"the dead"=ek ton nekron see explanation in bold below:)


"DEAD" AND "THE DEAD".

The word nekros (Noun and Adjective) has different meanings, according as it is used in different connections:--

1. With the Article (hoi nekroi) it denotes dead bodies, or corpses or carcasses in the grave, apart from the personality they once had. This is the O.T. idiom also. See Sept. Gen. 23:3, 4, 6, 8. Deut. 18:11; 28:26. Jer. 7:33; 9:22; 19:7. Ezek. 37:9. See notes on Matt. 22:31. 1Cor. 15:35.

2. Without the Article (nekroi) it denotes the persons who were once alive but who are now alive no longer : i.e. dead persons as distinct from dead bodies. Cp. Deut. 14:1. Judg. 4:22. Lam. 3:6. And see notes on Matt. 22:32. Acts 26:23. 1Cor. 15:12, 13, 15, 16. Heb. 13:20, &c.

3. With a Preposition, but without the Article, which may be latent in the Preposition (ek nekron), it denotes out from among dead people. See notes on Mark 9:9, 10. Luke 16:30, 31. Acts 10:41. Rom. 6:13; 10:7, 9; 11:15. 1Cor. 15:12-20. Heb. 11:19.

4. With a Preposition, and with the Article; e.g. 'ek ton nekron, it denotes emphatically out from among the dead bodies, or corpses. Cp. Eph. 5:14. Col. 1:18; 2:12.

5. The bearing of this on 1Pet. 4:6 will be better seen if we note that we have nekroi (See No. 2 above), meaning people who were then dead, but who had had the Gospel preached. (Ap. 121. 4) to them while they were alive; and this is confirmed by the Gr. Particle, men ( = although) in the next clause, which is ignored both by the A.V. and R.V. The verse reads thus : "For to this end to those who are (now) dead was the Gospel preached, that though they might be judged in the flesh according to [the will of] men (*), yet they might live [again, in resurrection], according to [the will of] God, as regards [the] spirit"; i.e. in spiritual bodies, spoken of in 1Cor. 15:44, 45.

6. To this end -- to give those to whom the apostle wrote this hope -- the Gospel was preached to them, as described in 1Pet. 1:12, 25. The hope of glory was thus set over against their sufferings (1Pet. 1:11; 4:13).
This is from http://www.biblestudysite.com/139.htm

Teke
Feb 14th 2008, 08:34 PM
This is from http://www.biblestudysite.com/139.htm

Mine came from here, http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append139.html
It is an appendix of the KJV Companion Bible (of which I have a copy). It is not copyrighted. Thought it would explain itself.

Matt14
Feb 14th 2008, 08:41 PM
Mine came from here, http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append139.html
It is an appendix of the KJV Companion Bible (of which I have a copy). It is not copyrighted. Thought it would explain itself.
Just making sure Roger knew where everything was coming from. ;)

Teke
Feb 14th 2008, 08:58 PM
Just making sure Roger knew where everything was coming from. ;)

Well you caught me being slack. :P But I did post where it actually came from before it was put on the internet. And, it's common knowledge if you speak Greek.

It seemed the simplest way to explain (using examples) without speaking Greek. And going into that whole "feminine" "masculine" debate form.:D

RogerW
Feb 14th 2008, 10:15 PM
Wellllll...alrighty then! Sounds like Greek to me :bounce:

bjones
Feb 16th 2008, 11:31 PM
I have understood it to mean that they were being baptized on behalf "of their own dead bodies".


What good is baptism if it is not a symbol of the promise made by Christ's own real resurrection? "Buried with him in baptism, raised with him to newness of life."

Just as Israel was in Abraham when he paid tithes, we were in Adam when he sinned, we were in Christ when he hung on the cross and was resurrected.

dan
Feb 19th 2008, 02:29 AM
...Serious!?:lol:

The Catholics teach Original Sin, whereby you acquire Adam and Eve's Original Sin by virtue of God's attribution of sin to unborn generations.

Baptism is the only escape from punishment for this sin, they believe, and that is why they baptize after birth.

The Mormons actively seek the names of people that are known to have died without baptism and they baptize themselves using those names to fulfill this part of the Bible.

I have baptized all my children at birth and hope to baptize them again as they become followers of Christ.

RevLogos
Feb 19th 2008, 03:37 AM
My discernment is this:

He begins this sentence with "Otherwise" or "Else" in the KJV so we are back to the "what if there is no resurrection of Christ, or the dead" logic which permeates the previous verses. Then when he says "baptized for the dead" he simply means "baptized for Christ" who in this Else logic, is simply dead and not resurrected. Therefore with no resurrection, one is being baptized for a dead person.

In the KJV just replace "the dead" with "Christ" and it all makes sense in this else logic where Christ is just a dead body and was never resurrected. As in 15:17 where Paul says your faith is useless without resurrection, this verse simply adds your baptism is also useless.

Naphal
Feb 19th 2008, 03:51 AM
1 Cor 15:29

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
NASU


The context is the resurrection of the dead. Paul is making a point that the dead will rise again. Then he throws this verse in there. What do you guys make of it?


1Co 15:12 If we preach that Christ was raised from death, how can some of you say that the dead will not be raised to life?
1Co 15:13 If they won't be raised to life, Christ himself wasn't raised to life.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ wasn't raised to life, our message is worthless, and so is your faith.
1Co 15:15 If the dead won't be raised to life, we have told lies about God by saying that he raised Christ to life, when he really did not.
1Co 15:16 So if the dead won't be raised to life, Christ wasn't raised to life.
1Co 15:17 Unless Christ was raised to life, your faith is useless, and you are still living in your sins.
1Co 15:18 And those people who died after putting their faith in him are completely lost.
1Co 15:19 If our hope in Christ is good only for this life, we are worse off than anyone else.
1Co 15:20 But Christ has been raised to life! And he makes us certain that others will also be raised to life.
1Co 15:21 Just as we will die because of Adam, we will be raised to life because of Christ.
1Co 15:22 Adam brought death to all of us, and Christ will bring life to all of us.
1Co 15:23 But we must each wait our turn. Christ was the first to be raised to life, and his people will be raised to life when he returns.
1Co 15:24 Then after Christ has destroyed all powers and forces, the end will come, and he will give the kingdom to God the Father.
1Co 15:25 Christ will rule until he puts all his enemies under his power,
1Co 15:26 and the last enemy he destroys will be death.
1Co 15:27 When the Scriptures say that he will put everything under his power, they don't include God. It was God who put everything under the power of Christ.
1Co 15:28 After everything is under the power of God's Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son's power. Then God will mean everything to everyone.
1Co 15:29 If the dead are not going to be raised to life, what will people do who are being baptized for them? Why are they being baptized for those dead people?
1Co 15:30 And why do we always risk our lives
1Co 15:31 and face death every day? The pride that I have in you because of Christ Jesus our Lord is what makes me say this.
1Co 15:32 What do you think I gained by fighting wild animals in Ephesus? If the dead are not raised to life, "Let's eat and drink. Tomorrow we die."
1Co 15:33 Don't fool yourselves. Bad friends will destroy you.

SIG
Feb 19th 2008, 04:03 AM
David Guzik's Commentary:

a. Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all?

What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different attempts to interpret it.

i. The plain meaning of the original language is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died. Paul’s point is “If there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? What is the point if there is no life after death?”

ii. Significantly, Paul does not say, “we baptize for the dead,” but asks what will they do who are baptized for the dead, and Why then are they baptized for the dead? Therefore, Paul is referring to a pagan custom of vicarious baptism for the dead. “Paul simply mentions the superstitious custom without approving it and uses it to fortify his argument that there is a resurrection from the dead.” (Mare)

iii. Paul certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place? The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither Scriptural nor sensible.

iv. Paul’s point is plain: “The pagans even believe in the resurrection because they baptize for the dead. The pagans have the sense to believe in resurrection, but some of you Corinthian Christians do not!”

v. Clarke said of this verse, “This is certainly the most difficult verse in the New Testament; for, notwithstanding the greatest and wisest of men have laboured to explain it, there are to this day nearly as many different interpretations of it as there are interpreters.”

RogerW
Feb 19th 2008, 02:54 PM
My discernment is this:

He begins this sentence with "Otherwise" or "Else" in the KJV so we are back to the "what if there is no resurrection of Christ, or the dead" logic which permeates the previous verses. Then when he says "baptized for the dead" he simply means "baptized for Christ" who in this Else logic, is simply dead and not resurrected. Therefore with no resurrection, one is being baptized for a dead person.

In the KJV just replace "the dead" with "Christ" and it all makes sense in this else logic where Christ is just a dead body and was never resurrected. As in 15:17 where Paul says your faith is useless without resurrection, this verse simply adds your baptism is also useless.

Greetings Revolvr,

This is my understanding of the passage as well. Thank you.

Many Blessings,
RW

skypair
Feb 19th 2008, 03:59 PM
The "dead" are the believing Corinthians who, in baptism, are buried with Christ and who, by the Spirit, resurrected to new life in this life.

The Corinthians, if they believed in resurrection at all, believed it came after their physical death (the OT manner). Paul here is telling them that true resurrection comes after you die to self and are quickened by the Spirit ("I die daily").

To this day, many Christians won't accept this POV.

skypair

Matt14
Feb 19th 2008, 07:53 PM
David Guzik's Commentary:

a. Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all?

What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different attempts to interpret it.

i. The plain meaning of the original language is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died. Paul’s point is “If there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? What is the point if there is no life after death?”

ii. Significantly, Paul does not say, “we baptize for the dead,” but asks what will they do who are baptized for the dead, and Why then are they baptized for the dead? Therefore, Paul is referring to a pagan custom of vicarious baptism for the dead. “Paul simply mentions the superstitious custom without approving it and uses it to fortify his argument that there is a resurrection from the dead.” (Mare)

iii. Paul certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place? The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither Scriptural nor sensible.

iv. Paul’s point is plain: “The pagans even believe in the resurrection because they baptize for the dead. The pagans have the sense to believe in resurrection, but some of you Corinthian Christians do not!”

v. Clarke said of this verse, “This is certainly the most difficult verse in the New Testament; for, notwithstanding the greatest and wisest of men have laboured to explain it, there are to this day nearly as many different interpretations of it as there are interpreters.”
Thanks SIG, this is the plain meaning of the original text.

Naphal
Feb 19th 2008, 09:39 PM
The "dead" are the believing Corinthians who, in baptism, are buried with Christ and who, by the Spirit, resurrected to new life in this life.

The Corinthians, if they believed in resurrection at all, believed it came after their physical death (the OT manner). Paul here is telling them that true resurrection comes after you die to self and are quickened by the Spirit ("I die daily").

To this day, many Christians won't accept this POV.

skypair

That POV is incorrect based on a misunderstanding of Pauls "I die daily".




Have you ever heard of modern doctrines that teach something about "dying to self" or something similar? It may sound intriguing but is it scriptural?

1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.

They might use these verses and suggest that Paul "died" to his carnal self etc but is that really what Paul was teaching?
Some use the misleading translation of "I die daily" and teach then that Paul is dying to self, to desires, to his carnal self and teach then that we should as well. It gets pretty new-agey in certain circles when the truth of the matter is that Paul was simply talking about how he faced death daily, not symbolically dying daily to his self or his sins or something along those lines:

(ALT) [I affirm] by my boasting [or, pride] in you* which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily [or, every day I am in danger of death].

(CEV) If the dead are not going to be raised to life, what will people do who are being baptized for them? Why are they being baptized for those dead people? And why do we always risk our lives and face death every day? The pride that I have in you because of Christ Jesus our Lord is what makes me say this. What do you think I gained by fighting wild animals in Ephesus? If the dead are not raised to life, "Let's eat and drink. Tomorrow we die."

(GNB) My friends, I face death every day! The pride I have in you, in our life in union with Christ Jesus our Lord, makes me declare this.

(GW) Brothers and sisters, I swear to you on my pride in you which Christ Jesus our Lord has given me: I face death every day.

(ISV) I face death every day! That is as certain, brothers, as it is that I am proud of you in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(MSG) I look death in the face practically every day I live. Do you think I'd do this if I wasn't convinced of your resurrection and mine as guaranteed by the resurrected Messiah Jesus?

(NLT) If the dead will not be raised, then what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again? And why should we ourselves be continually risking our lives, facing death hour by hour? For I swear, dear brothers and sisters, I face death daily. This is as certain as my pride in what the Lord Jesus Christ has done in you. And what value was there in fighting wild beasts-those men of Ephesus*-if there will be no resurrection from the dead? If there is no resurrection, "Let's feast and get drunk, for tomorrow we die!"

What do scholars say on this verse?

Barnes-


I die daily - compare Rom_8:36. I endure so many sufferings and persecutions, that it may be said to be a daily dying. I am constantly in danger of my life; and my sufferings each day are equal to the pains of death. Probably Paul here referred particularly to the perils and trials which he then endured at Ephesus; and his object was to impress their minds with the firmness of his belief in the certainty of the resurrection, on account of which he suffered so much, and to show them that all their hopes rested also on this doctrine.


Clarke-


I die daily - A form of speech for, I am continually exposed to death. The following passages will illustrate this. So Philo, p. 990. Flaccus, who was in continual fear of death, says: ?a?’ e??ast?? ??µe?a?, µa???? de ???a?, p??ap????s??, p?????? ?a?at??? ??p?µe??? a??’ e???? t?? te?e?ta???? “Every day, rather every hour, I anticipate death; enduring many deaths before that last one comes.” So Libanius, speaking of his own miseries and those of the people of Antioch, Epist. 1320, page 615, says: et? ???te? te????aµe?? “Though living, we are dead.” Livy has a similar form of expression to signify continual danger, xxix. 17: Quotidie capitur urbs nostra, quotidie diripitur. “Daily is our city taken, daily is it pillaged.”
Gill-


I die daily; which is to be understood, not in a spiritual sense of dying unto sin;


he instances in himself in particular, who was one that was in jeopardy or danger of his life every hour;


death was always working in him, he expected it every day, and was ready for it; he did not count his life dear unto himself, but was very willing to lay it down for the sake of Christ and his Gospel; which he would never have done, if he had not good reason to believe the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.

VWS-


I die daily
I am in constant peril of my life. Compare 2Co_4:11; 2Co_11:23; Rom_8:36. So Clytaemnestra: “I have no rest by night, nor can I snatch from the day a sweet moment of repose to enfold me; but Time, ever standing over me, was as a jailer who conducted me to death” (Sophocles, “Electra,” 780, 781). And Philo: “And each day, nay, each hour, I die beforehand, enduring many deaths instead of one, the last.”

Wesley-


1Co 15:31 - I protest by your rejoicing, which I have - Which love makes my own. I die daily - I am daily in the very jaws of death. Beside that I live, as it were, in a daily martyrdom.

Henry-


He was in continual danger of death, and carried his life, as we say, in his hand. And why should he thus expose himself, if he had no hopes after life? To live in daily view and expectation of death, and yet have no prospect beyond it, must be very heartless and uncomfortable, and his case, upon this account, a very melancholy one. He had need be very well assured of the resurrection of the dead, or he was guilty of extreme weakness, in hazarding all that was dear to him in this world, and his life into the bargain.

JFB-


I die daily--This ought to stand first in the sentence, as it is so put prominently forward in the Greek. I am day by day in sight of death, exposed to it, and expecting it (2Co_4:11-12; 2Co_1:8-9; 2Co_11:23).



Its pretty simple. Paul was merely saying he faced death on a daily basis and he wouldn't be doing that if he didn't truly believe that he would be resurrected after dying. If there was no afterlife, then there would be no reason to risk his life so often or at all.

I Corinthians 15:32 "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

Paul is referring to Isaiah

Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.

Paul is tell us that if He didn't believe that Christ was raised from the dead his purpose in life would no more gratifying than killing these animals for the day to day existence man lives.

Christ did die and He is resurrected, and there is a purpose for facing death in preaching the gospel. It is worth it all.

While the concept of symbolically "dying" to your own personal desires and sins can be a valid concept it is not what Paul was talking about in these verses.