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Zorgblar
Feb 16th 2008, 02:01 AM
I have two questions about suicide:
1.If you take your own life and are a christian when you die will your spirit still go to heaven?
2.If you take your own life and are a christian are you playing God?

Naphal
Feb 16th 2008, 02:28 AM
I have two questions about suicide:
1.If you take your own life and are a christian when you die will your spirit still go to heaven?

Keep in mind every spirit goes back to God (in heaven) when their body dies. What you mean by "go to heaven" really is "receive eternal life". Suicide isn't mentioned as being unforgiveable in the bible nor does the bible limit repentance to human life spans so while most will say it isn't possible to repent of this I believe it can be repented of after death IF they care to.




2.If you take your own life and are a christian are you playing God?


No, because killing people isn't God's job. You would be playing God if you judged a suicide victim to hell :)

threebigrocks
Feb 16th 2008, 03:09 AM
Zorgblar, what we do now in obedience to Christ determines our eternity. Once we die, there is no second chance. We rest in Christ until we are raised up for judgement. We die, then we are judged.

Naphal
Feb 16th 2008, 03:18 AM
Once we die, there is no second chance.

Any scriptures that prove this?

Zorgblar
Feb 16th 2008, 03:26 AM
Any scriptures that prove this?

I think the book of hebrews 9:27 hints that that might be the case.But im not sure.:dunno:

Naphal
Feb 16th 2008, 03:28 AM
I think the book of hebrews 9:27 hints that that might be the case.But im not sure.:dunno:


Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This only says men will die once and then after death they are judged but6 we all know we aren't judged immediately after death but all at once on judgement day. This is a brief re-cap of some of the things but isn't detailed. It also does not say repentance cannot be done after death.

Zorgblar
Feb 16th 2008, 03:34 AM
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This only says men will die once and then after death they are judged but6 we all know we aren't judged immediately after death but all at once on judgement day. This is a brief re-cap of some of the things but isn't detailed. It also does not say repentance cannot be done after death.

Ok i see your point.I hadn't thought of it that way.:)

Naphal
Feb 16th 2008, 03:37 AM
Ok i see your point.I hadn't thought of it that way.:)

Ppl tend to use that verse as if it says we are judged immediately after we die. If that was true, then yes we prolly couldn't repent after we die but the truth is people have died for a long time and are still waiting to be judged on that one day. Now, can they repent or does God refuse to allow them or hear them?

Studyin'2Show
Feb 16th 2008, 03:01 PM
Any scriptures that prove this?Luke 16:19-26
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

Why didn't the rich man simply repent instead of begging for a drop of water? Unless you're talking about some form of Universalism which is only allowed in the 'World Religions' forum. ;)

God Bless!

Gard
Feb 16th 2008, 03:05 PM
This thread brings up another interesting question. If a Christian commits suicide while in the grips of mental illness, will he or she still be held accountable?

daughter
Feb 16th 2008, 03:06 PM
Ppl tend to use that verse as if it says we are judged immediately after we die. If that was true, then yes we prolly couldn't repent after we die but the truth is people have died for a long time and are still waiting to be judged on that one day. Now, can they repent or does God refuse to allow them or hear them?
Isn't that a bit unfair? What about those who died at the start of human history, compared with those who will die on the last great and terrible day of the Lord? Why is Cain given thousands of years to repent... but Joe Bloggs gets a minute and a half?

I agree with the inference made by the previous poster about Lazarus and the rich man too. Good catch!

Zorgblar
Feb 16th 2008, 03:07 PM
This thread brings up another interesting question. If a Christian commits suicide while in the grips of mental illness, will he or she still be held accountable?

I don't know.That's a good question!I guess only God knows the real answer though.

threebigrocks
Feb 16th 2008, 03:24 PM
I don't know.That's a good question!I guess only God knows the real answer though.

God is just an merciful and knows the heart. We cannot pile up "what ifs" and box God into a scenario from our point of view.

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 is a good example of dying once, and then judgement. Zorgblar, you found the scripture to support the thought. If scripture holds up - can it be false?

Napal, what scripture do you have to support your claim of repentance after death? Does not Hebrews 9:27 show that we die and then we are judged? Do not read into scripture.

Zorgblar
Feb 16th 2008, 03:33 PM
The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 is a good example of dying once, and then judgement. Zorgblar, you found the scripture to support the thought. If scripture holds up - can it be false?



I guess not if scripture looks like it supports the idea in two different parts of the bible.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 16th 2008, 03:35 PM
This thread brings up another interesting question. If a Christian commits suicide while in the grips of mental illness, will he or she still be held accountable?I think it would go back to living a lifestyle of sin versus slipping in sin. Peter received from God that Yeshua is Messiah, Son of the Living God. Then just a short time later is rebuked by Him for being used by satan. It is possible, I believe, to slip into the flesh and I don't believe you'd lose true salvation for a momentary lapse such as the mental illness you mention. But I agree with Zorgblar that this is a difficult thing to consider and that God only knows how to be perfectly just in such difficult matters. The bottom line is that suicide is not a righteous act or solution and should be completely discouraged. If it has already happened, however, to a loved one or something, you just have to put it in God's hand and trust whatever judgment He may bring.

God Bless!

threebigrocks
Feb 16th 2008, 03:44 PM
I guess not is scripture looks like it supports the idea in two different parts of the bible.

Then you go with that, and the Holy Spirit will give you peace about it in prayer.

Naphal
Feb 17th 2008, 03:30 AM
Luke 16:19-26
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

Why didn't the rich man simply repent instead of begging for a drop of water? Unless you're talking about some form of Universalism which is only allowed in the 'World Religions' forum. ;)

God Bless!


The topic is whether it can be proven that someone cannot repent after death. So far there is nothing shown to prove that belief.

In the story about the rich man, he does not repent but we are not told why and not told he cant. Plus, when Christ visited the dead after he died, who is to say the rich man did not accept the gospel and repent?

Naphal
Feb 17th 2008, 03:31 AM
This thread brings up another interesting question. If a Christian commits suicide while in the grips of mental illness, will he or she still be held accountable?

Even more, does the bible state suicide is a sin?

Naphal
Feb 17th 2008, 03:32 AM
Isn't that a bit unfair? What about those who died at the start of human history, compared with those who will die on the last great and terrible day of the Lord? Why is Cain given thousands of years to repent... but Joe Bloggs gets a minute and a half?



I don't think time really matters as much as we think it does. Is it fair that a sinner can convert on their death bed and be saved while a good man can sin on his and be sentenced to hell?

Naphal
Feb 17th 2008, 03:37 AM
God is just an merciful and knows the heart. We cannot pile up "what ifs" and box God into a scenario from our point of view.

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 is a good example of dying once, and then judgement. Zorgblar, you found the scripture to support the thought. If scripture holds up - can it be false?

Napal, what scripture do you have to support your claim of repentance after death? Does not Hebrews 9:27 show that we die and then we are judged? Do not read into scripture.


Exactly! Do not read into scripture. Here you have decided that the rich man has already faced judgement yet he has not. Judgement day comes once for all. The rich man has been categorized since there is a gulf in heaven and the bad go to one side and the good to the other but judgement day is a long ways off for all.

Hebrews does not cover the details inbetween our death and judgement day. It does not teach that judgement is immediately after death nor does it mention anything about repentance or sinning after death. Did you think sin cannot occur in heaven? Even angels have sinned, even Satan has warred in heaven itself. Sin will only be eradicated after judgement day.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 17th 2008, 04:36 AM
The topic is whether it can be proven that someone cannot repent after death. So far there is nothing shown to prove that belief.

In the story about the rich man, he does not repent but we are not told why and not told he cant. Plus, when Christ visited the dead after he died, who is to say the rich man did not accept the gospel and repent?Naphal, I'm sure you know that it is impossible to prove a negative. :rolleyes: Anyway, there's no need to 'prove' anything in this regards. If you are comfortable taking the chance with the eternal souls of unbelievers you may have the opportunity to warn, so be it. I'm not so as long as I have breath I will warn them of the judgment to come. For the loved ones of those who have already committed suicide, as I said before, they can have comfort in knowing God is just and merciful, and simply trust Him in whatever their judgment may be. However, for those who may be considering suicide that read your words and believe them thinking they will have a second chance, how tragic it will be if they now feel comfortable in choosing that option and find out you are wrong. :o So, I'll stick with what is certain. Suicide is murder and His word tells us not to commit murder, so don't. 'Nuff said!

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 17th 2008, 04:44 AM
Naphal, I'm sure you know that it is impossible to prove a negative.

When people claim something is a biblical fact then it is important as a Berean to check it out and see if it's true.



:rolleyes: Anyway, there's no need to 'prove' anything in this regards. If you are comfortable taking the chance with the eternal souls of unbelievers you may have the opportunity to warn, so be it. I'm not so as long as I have breath I will warn them of the judgment to come.

I am not willing to lie to accomplish that. If what people are saying is true, then they should be able to prove it using scripture. If it isn't true then that will be evident through this discussion.




For the loved ones of those who have already committed suicide, as I said before, they can have comfort in knowing God is just and merciful, and simply trust Him in whatever their judgment may be. However, for those who may be considering suicide that read your words and believe them thinking they will have a second chance, how tragic it will be if they now feel comfortable in choosing that option and find out you are wrong. :o


Teaching about forgiveness isn't a license to sin so please do not infer that what I say will make people choose suicide. Scripture simply doesn't address suicide as a sin. I believe it might be a sin under certain circumstances but it's a personal belief. As well, I believe that it isn't a sin in certain cases.

I know the bible teaches that the gospel was preached to the dead and I know what the purpose of preaching the gospel is so I believe in repentance after death.




So, I'll stick with what is certain. Suicide is murder and His word tell us not to commit murder so don't. 'Nuff said!



Not all deaths are murder, not even all intentional deaths are so it isn't correct to state outright that suicide is murder.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 17th 2008, 01:20 PM
Naphal, you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing. Stating something as fact without scriptural basis that SPECIFICALLY addresses the issue. :rolleyes: Lie? Is stating what you believe to be true lying? :o Absolutely not! God will not be mocked. If someone believes what you assume to be true, can you see how a depressed soul might take that as thinking suicide is a valid option to take to get them away from a life they're not happy with? And BTW, in the few scripture into which you are reading this 'second chance' it speaks in the past tense. Those who died before Yeshua could not enter in because their sin was not yet washed away. However, there were many who were trusting in the promised Messiah. Knowing that when He came, He would save them. I believe He descended to proclaim the good news, that He had come! :pp BTW, I believe 1 Peter 4:6 is referring to preaching to those who are dead 'spiritually' as we all once were. But even if it is speaking of those who were physically dead, it speaks in past and not future tense. Not the gospel will be or will continue to be...

If there is a second chance, wonderful, but I will not take the chance at deceiving others or myself that there definitely is. When Yeshua said there was 'a day' coming when the dead would hear His voice, that was true because He had yet to be crucified and descend. No one can absolutely say 'that day' will ever happen again. If you assume so, you are again reading into scripture what just is not there.

God Bless!

Gard
Feb 17th 2008, 03:39 PM
Even more, does the bible state suicide is a sin?


I am not aware of any bible reference to suicide....but I may be wrong. In any case, I personally am not willing to put it to the test. I once heard the late and infamous Herbert W. Armstrong teach that suicide was not a sin, but the ultimate humbling experience. That in itself is enough to make me believe that it probably is a sin.

Naphal
Feb 17th 2008, 10:09 PM
Naphal, you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing. Stating something as fact without scriptural basis that SPECIFICALLY addresses the issue.

I haven't done that. It is claimed that repentance and forgiveness can only occur during human life and I would like it proven. I have asked several people and I haven't received scripture backing it up yet.




:rolleyes: Lie? Is stating what you believe to be true lying? :o Absolutely not!

Anything untrue is a lie, or call it a falsehood or incorrect etc.




And BTW, in the few scripture into which you are reading this 'second chance' it speaks in the past tense. Those who died before Yeshua could not enter in because their sin was not yet washed away.



This isn't in contention. It simply proves that sins has been forgiven after death. You believe it was a one time occurence but scripture does not state that.



If there is a second chance, wonderful, but I will not take the chance at deceiving others or myself that there definitely is. When Yeshua said there was 'a day' coming when the dead would hear His voice, that was true because He had yet to be crucified and descend. No one can absolutely say 'that day' will ever happen again. If you assume so, you are again reading into scripture what just is not there.

I only assume that Christ has the power to forgive sins whether they are repented of in this life or in the next.

Naphal
Feb 17th 2008, 10:10 PM
I am not aware of any bible reference to suicide....but I may be wrong. In any case, I personally am not willing to put it to the test. I once heard the late and infamous Herbert W. Armstrong teach that suicide was not a sin, but the ultimate humbling experience. That in itself is enough to make me believe that it probably is a sin.


Like I said, I believe suicide can be a sin and also can not be a sin depending on each person and their mental state and so forth.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 18th 2008, 01:16 AM
Naphal, I have not claimed to have proof one way or the other. I would LOVE for it to be that there is some 'second chance' for those who miss out on trusting in Messiah in their lifetime. What I said was that I do not see proof of that in scripture. With that said, it is not dangerous for me to warn someone considering suicide how dangerous to their spiritual eternity such a decision would be. If I am wrong and there is a second chance, they would in no way be hurt by that. On the other hand, if you do not warn them of the possible danger to their spiritual eternity because you are certain there is a 'second chance' after death, and you are wrong and there is no 'second chance' after death. They would be irreparably damaged for eternity if they choose to believe your view and take the option of suicide to end their life.

Naphal, I can see nothing positive coming from continuing this. I have my interpretation that you feel I can not 'prove' from scripture, and you have your interpretation that you can not 'prove' from scripture. So, we've both said our piece.

God Bless!

threebigrocks
Feb 18th 2008, 02:25 AM
I haven't done that. It is claimed that repentance and forgiveness can only occur during human life and I would like it proven. I have asked several people and I haven't received scripture backing it up yet.





Anything untrue is a lie, or call it a falsehood or incorrect etc.




This isn't in contention. It simply proves that sins has been forgiven after death. You believe it was a one time occurence but scripture does not state that.




I only assume that Christ has the power to forgive sins whether they are repented of in this life or in the next.

Napal there has been scripture shared. The only thing that can be a falsehood when speaking of the faith is if it can't be proven via scripture.

If you are saying that once Christ died and the gates of heaven opened to those who has gone onto Abraham's bosom prior to his death, you would have to prove that those gates didn't remain open and that we cannot be washed clean enough by the blood of the Lamb - thus remaining in sin. Christ's atonement is either enough or it is not.

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 03:33 AM
If you are saying that once Christ died and the gates of heaven opened to those who has gone onto Abraham's bosom prior to his death, you would have to prove that those gates didn't remain open and that we cannot be washed clean enough by the blood of the Lamb - thus remaining in sin. Christ's atonement is either enough or it is not.

I don't know what you are talking about. I have brought up the gospel being preached to the dead. Nothing about that questions Christ's atonement, in fact it makes clear just how powerful his blood is over sin even after human life.

threebigrocks
Feb 18th 2008, 03:53 AM
I don't know what you are talking about. I have brought up the gospel being preached to the dead. Nothing about that questions Christ's atonement, in fact it makes clear just how powerful his blood is over sin even after human life.

We are to die once, then judgement.

Nowhere in that verse, which has been shared, does it say anything about a second chance.

Christ's atonement is done. We need to accept it now. Later is too late.

Roelof
Feb 18th 2008, 05:05 AM
I would like to use John Wesley Notes to comment on Heb 9:27

We die only once, and then we are judged. (Heb 9:27)


John Wesley Notes:

After this, the judgment - Of the great day. At the moment of death every man's final state is determined. But there is not a word in scripture of a particular judgment immediately after death.

brakelite
Feb 18th 2008, 07:04 AM
Suicide is murder. Self-murder.
And I'm not being facetious.
Brakelite.

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 07:13 AM
We are to die once, then judgement.

Nowhere in that verse, which has been shared, does it say anything about a second chance.

The verse is hardly detailed. We are given some very loose basics about death and judgement in that short verse but to use that and ignore countless other scriptures that add the missing details is a poor choice IMO.

We already know from the whole of scripture that judgement is not immediate after death but "immediately" is being added to that verse. We in fact know a great deal of time has been going on between man's death and the yet future day of judgement. In addition we know that an unknown amount of the death were preached the gospel and thus allowed to be saved through repentance and faith in Christ's blood and all the gospel (good news) entails.




Christ's atonement is done. We need to accept it now. Later is too late.

And when does scripture say it is too late? Not what man teaches but what the scriptures say.

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 07:21 AM
I would like to use John Wesley Notes to comment on Heb 9:27

We die only once, and then we are judged. (Heb 9:27)


John Wesley Notes:

After this, the judgment - Of the great day. At the moment of death every man's final state is determined. But there is not a word in scripture of a particular judgment immediately after death.

It's interesting how he contradicts himself. I'd like to see how he proved man's final state is determined without a judgement. According to scripture nothing is determined until the day of judgement.

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 07:23 AM
Suicide is murder. Self-murder.
And I'm not being facetious.
Brakelite.


That would be like saying all human deaths are murder. Yet, some are murder and some are not. Example, scripture declares that there is no sin without the law. Was it a sin to commit suicide prior to the law or without knowing the law? Besides, suicide isn't addressed in the law but that's not the point at the moment.

brakelite
Feb 18th 2008, 07:46 AM
Suicide is killing oneself. The law says thou shalt not kill.

Before Sinai, Cain killed Abel. Therefore, was that not sin?
If it was sin, then the law existed before Sinai.
Romans says that through Adam's sin, all men inherit death.
The law therefore must have existed in the garden.

Therefore there has never been a time when there was no law.
The law reminds us of the presence of sin, but the sin nevertheless was always there.
That is why the law is so essential. It reminds us we are sinners. And without that knowledge, we would never know our need of a Saviour.

Brakelite

Naphal
Feb 18th 2008, 07:54 AM
Suicide is killing oneself. The law says thou shalt not kill.

No, the law says "thou shalt not murder" not "thou shalt not kill"





Before Sinai, Cain killed Abel. Therefore, was that not sin?
If it was sin, then the law existed before Sinai.



Cain murdered Abel which is different than killing. It was a sin because Cain was punished so there had to be some basic law in place we aren't told about, or God simply decided to punish without a law but I lean towards the first.





That is why the law is so essential. It reminds us we are sinners. And without that knowledge, we would never know our need of a Saviour.

Of course without the law we wouldn't be sinners.

Rom 7:8 It was sin that used this command as a way of making me have all kinds of desires. But without the Law, sin is dead.
Rom 7:9 Before I knew about the Law, I was alive. But as soon as I heard that command, sin came to life,
Rom 7:10 and I died. The very command that was supposed to bring life to me, instead brought death.
Rom 7:11 Sin used this command to trick me, and because of it I died.
Rom 7:12 Still, the Law and its commands are holy and correct and good.
Rom 7:13 Am I saying that something good caused my death? Certainly not! It was sin that killed me by using something good. Now we can see how terrible and evil sin really is.

threebigrocks
Feb 18th 2008, 02:42 PM
I have moved this thread here to Controversial Forums because of the nature of the topic and the path the discussion has taken.

brakelite
Feb 20th 2008, 07:59 AM
I still dont understand you're reasoning. How is self-murder not against the commandment?
Or are you suggesting that suicide is unintentional. Second degree suicide?
And we agree then re Cain. My point exactly. He was punished so there must have been the law at that time. The law presented at Sinai was not it's first moment of existence. God didn't think it up just to give Moses something to do. The law is a transcript of the righteousness of God, His character. It has been in existence from eternity. It is not unreasonable to assume that God taught it to Adam and Eve and they in turn taugght it to their children.

And if any require NT proof of the unrighteousness of suicide contemplate this:

1 Cor 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Brakelite

Naphal
Feb 20th 2008, 08:28 AM
I still dont understand you're reasoning. How is self-murder not against the commandment?

Not all deaths are murder. Murder means a criminal death or homicide.



Or are you suggesting that suicide is unintentional. Second degree suicide?

More like a non-criminal act but only in some cases. There is no all or nothing in any of this. Each case is different just as it is when one person kills another.



And we agree then re Cain. My point exactly. He was punished so there must have been the law at that time.

There certainly was punishment for what God disapproved of.





And if any require NT proof of the unrighteousness of suicide contemplate this:

1 Cor 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.



This is speaking of spiritual things defiling our temples, not physical things or acts.

threebigrocks
Feb 20th 2008, 03:08 PM
Until the law was given sin was not known. Romans 7.

What was done prior to the giving of the law wasn't counted as sin against the people, but that doesn't mean that murder was okay. It wasn't accepted as a good thing in society.

It was because of the unrighteouss acts that God gave the Law so it could do a work in the hearts of the people. It made their actions of murder, idol worship, adultery, theft, covetousness, disobedience, etc. sin against God. Accountability came into play.

Look at the story of Cain killing Abel. God was not pleased, and heard Abel's blood cry out from the dust of the earth. It's not that God was indifferent of the actions of those who did bad things, quite the contrary. It's that it wasn't counted against man as sin against God.

Napal, I'll ask as I have before - show scripturally where one can repent after death. I have never found it and am quite curious as to how that conclusion is drawn.

Maybe the best place to start would be to show the existence of any law and/or requirement of obedience to that law after death.

9Marksfan
Feb 20th 2008, 04:43 PM
I haven't done that. It is claimed that repentance and forgiveness can only occur during human life and I would like it proven. I have asked several people and I haven't received scripture backing it up yet.

In the story about the crippled man being lowered through the roof, Jesus says "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on Earth to forgive sins...." - the clear implication being that one is only forgiven on Earth - there is no opportunity beyond the grave.

Also, Jesus says that the one who blasphemes the HS will not be forgiven either now or in the world to come. I believe that this not only teaches against a temporary condemnation/universal reconciliation but also debunks the idea that sins unforgiven in the dimension of time may be forgiven in the eternal dimension.

It would seem strange that there are so many calls for an urgent response to the gospel (eg Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts; Now is the acceptable time, behold now is the day of salvation; Therefore, knowing the terrors of the Lord, we persuade men; we urge you, therefore, be reconciled to God (apologies, I can't access more than one website on this PC and don't have my Bible with me at present, so Scripture references may be slightly inaccurate)) - if repentance and forgiveness were a possibility beyond the grave. It's also implicit in Jesus' command that, unless we repent, we shall all likewise perish - why warn us if we could repent after we die?

Finally, if there is a great gulf fixed that no man may cross, then surely our eternal destinies ARE sealed when we die (if not before, but that's another thread topic!) and CANNOT be changed thereafter?


I only assume that Christ has the power to forgive sins whether they are repented of in this life or in the next.

No - as one preacher I know said many years ago: "No one can help you in Hell - not even Jesus....." VERY sobering..........

9Marksfan
Feb 20th 2008, 04:48 PM
Until the law was given sin was not known. Romans 7.

What was done prior to the giving of the law wasn't counted as sin against the people, but that doesn't mean that murder was okay. It wasn't accepted as a good thing in society.

TBR I agree with much of what you have said on this thread, but I can't agree with this. God said to Cain that sin was crouching at his door and it desired to have him but he had to master it - so sin MUST have been known in the Garden! And what did Adam and Eve do if it wasn't sin? They were banished from the garden as punishment and the whole human race and creation were cursed!


It was because of the unrighteouss acts that God gave the Law so it could do a work in the hearts of the people. It made their actions of murder, idol worship, adultery, theft, covetousness, disobedience, etc. sin against God.

No - they were already sin but God just made it 100% clear what was disobedience.


Accountability came into play.

So how come God treated Adam and Eve as accountable and punished them for their sin?


Look at the story of Cain killing Abel. God was not pleased, and heard Abel's blood cry out from the dust of the earth. It's not that God was indifferent of the actions of those who did bad things, quite the contrary. It's that it wasn't counted against man as sin against God.

Where do you get that idea from? See above about sin crouching at Cain's door.

threebigrocks
Feb 20th 2008, 04:59 PM
TBR I agree with much of what you have said on this thread, but I can't agree with this. God said to Cain that sin was crouching at his door and it desired to have him but he had to master it - so sin MUST have been known in the Garden! And what did Adam and Eve do if it wasn't sin? They were banished from the garden as punishment and the whole human race and creation were cursed!

God commanded them not to touch the fruit of the one tree. 1 commandment - 1 law.




No - they were already sin but God just made it 100% clear what was disobedience.

Romans 5



12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Naphal
Feb 20th 2008, 10:35 PM
Napal, I'll ask as I have before - show scripturally where one can repent after death. I have never found it and am quite curious as to how that conclusion is drawn.

I've already shown that sins were repented of and forgiven after human life when Christ went to the dead and released whomever repented and accepted Christ's sacrifice so it can and has been done.

It really needs to be shown that repentance stops with human life. There is nothing in scripture that says that. We all know life doesn't stop. Why would anyone assume Christ no longer can or will forgive sins?

Naphal
Feb 20th 2008, 10:40 PM
In the story about the crippled man being lowered through the roof, Jesus says "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on Earth to forgive sins...." - the clear implication being that one is only forgiven on Earth - there is no opportunity beyond the grave.

That's nothing clear. He was on the Earth so he spoke to those on the earth. That is hardly an admission that his power was void in heaven or in the grave where he did forgive and release sinners.




Also, Jesus says that the one who blasphemes the HS will not be forgiven either now or in the world to come.

That's the unforgiveable sin. That doesn't say Christ can't forgive other sins.




It would seem strange that there are so many calls for an urgent response to the gospel (eg Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts; Now is the acceptable time, behold now is the day of salvation;



We are to spread the gospel now but the parable says one can convert in the last hour and be saved. What is the last hour according to God? I know that after judgement has been passed on the day of judgement then it's too late because the punishment is dealt out. So, any time before that would be before it's too late.





Finally, if there is a great gulf fixed that no man may cross, then surely our eternal destinies ARE sealed when we die (if not before, but that's another thread topic!) and CANNOT be changed thereafter?



Christ allowed many to cross so Christ is the bridge that makes it possible. No man can cross on his own.





No - as one preacher I know said many years ago: "No one can help you in Hell - not even Jesus....." VERY sobering..........



That's a false statement. Jesus can and has already helped those in hell.

9Marksfan
Feb 20th 2008, 11:34 PM
That's nothing clear. He was on the Earth so he spoke to those on the earth. That is hardly an admission that his power was void in heaven or in the grave where he did forgive and release sinners.

We do not read anywhere of sins being forgiven anywhere else but on Earth. Jesus went to declare His victory over sin and death to the spirits in prison in 1 Pet 3:17ff but it says nothing about them repenting and being forgiven - you are reading into the text something that just is not there.


That's the unforgiveable sin. That doesn't say Christ can't forgive other sins.

Most people (myself included) regard the unforgivable sin as refusing to repent prior to death. As forgiveness is only obtainable prior to death, that fits - and Jesus makes it clear that one can be completely hardened before death - and that there is no forgiveness beyond the grave.


We are to spread the gospel now but the parable says one can convert in the last hour and be saved. What is the last hour according to God?

Are you speaking about the parable of the tenants in the vineyard? I thnk it speaks of the return of the keeper of the vineyard - nothing about any opportunity beyond the grave!


I know that after judgement has been passed on the day of judgement

No - it's clear from the story of the rich man and Lazarus that there is a kind of judgement passed immediately on death - the rich man was in hell and "in torments" while Lazarus was in "Abraham's bosom".


then it's too late because the punishment is dealt out. So, any time before that would be before it's too late.

No - the day of grace, the day of opportunity is on Earth - in fact there are plenty of verses to suggest that it may well end before we die....


Christ allowed many to cross so Christ is the bridge that makes it possible.

Er, chapter and verse?


No man can cross on his own.

It says "no man can cross" - you are adding to the Scripture.


That's a false statement. Jesus can and has already helped those in hell.

I'm also waiting for a convincing Scripture from you.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 20th 2008, 11:42 PM
I've already shown that sins were repented of and forgiven after human life when Christ went to the dead and released whomever repented and accepted Christ's sacrifice so it can and has been done.

It really needs to be shown that repentance stops with human life. There is nothing in scripture that says that. We all know life doesn't stop. Why would anyone assume Christ no longer can or will forgive sins?No, you didn't. As I said before, Yeshua went to get those who had already repented and put their trust in the coming Messiah. In no way have you 'shown' that sins are REPENTED of after death.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 01:17 AM
We do not read anywhere of sins being forgiven anywhere else but on Earth. Jesus went to declare His victory over sin and death to the spirits in prison in 1 Pet 3:17ff but it says nothing about them repenting and being forgiven - you are reading into the text something that just is not there.

Once we understand why he went there and what it means to preach the gospel to someone then we understand that repentance and forgiveness occurred.



Most people (myself included) regard the unforgivable sin as refusing to repent prior to death.

Refusing to repent is never said to be a sin. It's simply very unwise. However, why guess about what the unforgiveable sin is when we are told what it is? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is to speak against the HS.



As forgiveness is only obtainable prior to death, that fits - and Jesus makes it clear that one can be completely hardened before death - and that there is no forgiveness beyond the grave.

Some people go to prison but still refuse to admit wrong or repent. It's the same for those that are "hardened" and die and still refuse to repent. There is forgiveness after death as shown in scripture.



Are you speaking about the parable of the tenants in the vineyard? I thnk it speaks of the return of the keeper of the vineyard - nothing about any opportunity beyond the grave!

Yes that's it but no it's not about the return of the keeper but how all get the same reward no matter if they worked the full day or works the last hour. It is when that last hour is determined by God (not man) that is important. I say human death is not the end of the 11th hour but judgement day is.




No - it's clear from the story of the rich man and Lazarus that there is a kind of judgement passed immediately on death - the rich man was in hell and "in torments" while Lazarus was in "Abraham's bosom".

There are "kinds of judgements" all through life and death but the only final one is the one on judgement day.





Er, chapter and verse?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.




It says "no man can cross" - you are adding to the Scripture.

The except is that Christ can help a man cross proven by the above scriptures.


I'm also waiting for a convincing Scripture from you.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 01:19 AM
No, you didn't. As I said before, Yeshua went to get those who had already repented and put their trust in the coming Messiah. In no way have you 'shown' that sins are REPENTED of after death.

If they had already repented before death then they wouldn't have gone to "hell" where Christ came to rescue them. He came with the gospel, some accepted and repented and were cleansed by his shed blood AFTER they had died. So, it is a fact that it happened once. Now, whether it can happen again or not is speculation and based on faith but since it happened once I know it is possible to hear the gospel and be forgiven after death.

cnw
Feb 21st 2008, 02:13 AM
hey guys you are forgetting that suicide is mentioned in the Bible.


3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Judas was filled with Satan, but repented then hanged himself. Don't know his heart, but I do know that God appointed hi to betray.
also Ahithophel was not a good man and gave bad advice to David and hanged himself after he took care of his household.
In both instances these men were not Godly men and the only cases I have seen in Scripture. I don't elieve there is anything Godly about killing yourself and it is very selfish.

cnw
Feb 21st 2008, 02:28 AM
oh and if we were given a chance to repent after death on earth, why in the world would we do it now? and why would there be anyone in hell at all? There is absolutely no reason to believe you get a chance after death to repent. There is nothing in Scripture to support that. The Bible seems to contradict repentance after death-
Luke 13:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 16:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&verse=30&version=9&context=verse)
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Revelation 3:3 (King James Version)

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

revelations sounds like another verse about a thief. If we are supposed to be ready now it doesn't sound like in the "afterlife" we have a chance again.

Joyfilled
Feb 21st 2008, 02:29 AM
I have two questions about suicide:
1.If you take your own life and are a christian when you die will your spirit still go to heaven?
2.If you take your own life and are a christian are you playing God?

If one commits suicide, then he doesn't believe that God will not give him any more than he can bear. So no, one who commits suicide is not a Christian because as Jesus says; "He who is not with me is against me." One cannot both claim to believe God and not believe God at the same time. ;)

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 02:40 AM
hey guys you are forgetting that suicide is mentioned in the Bible.

Judas was filled with Satan, but repented then hanged himself. Don't know his heart, but I do know that God appointed hi to betray.
also Ahithophel was not a good man and gave bad advice to David and hanged himself after he took care of his household.
In both instances these men were not Godly men and the only cases I have seen in Scripture. I don't elieve there is anything Godly about killing yourself and it is very selfish.


Suicide is mentioned in the bible but never said to be a sin or condemned. In this case suicide was the only good thing Judas did.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 02:42 AM
oh and if we were given a chance to repent after death on earth, why in the world would we do it now? and why would there be anyone in hell at all? There is absolutely no reason to believe you get a chance after death to repent. There is nothing in Scripture to support that. The Bible seems to contradict repentance after death-
Luke 13:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 16:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&verse=30&version=9&context=verse)
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Revelation 3:3 (King James Version)


Repent before judgement day. It doesn't say you can't repent after dying since we are alive and awake after death.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 03:13 AM
If they had already repented before death then they wouldn't have gone to "hell" where Christ came to rescue them. He came with the gospel, some accepted and repented and were cleansed by his shed blood AFTER they had died. So, it is a fact that it happened once. Now, whether it can happen again or not is speculation and based on faith but since it happened once I know it is possible to hear the gospel and be forgiven after death.They were all waiting for the Savior to pay the price for them. That price had yet to be paid. He came, He paid, then He went and collected. :pp

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 03:16 AM
They were all waiting for the Savior to pay the price for them. That price had yet to be paid. He came, He paid, then He went and collected. :pp

They all died in their sins and went where you go when you die with unforgiven sins. The only way out of there is to repent and be forgiven once accepting the blood of Christ. My position is that it is possible and has been done therefore this notion that it ends with human life is nonsense and unscriptural.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 03:38 AM
They all died in their sins and went where you go when you die with unforgiven sins. The only way out of there is to repent and be forgiven once accepting the blood of Christ. My position is that it is possible and has been done therefore this notion that it ends with human life is nonsense and unscriptural.So, in your view Abraham died in his sin and then had to repent after Yeshua descended? Anyway, I'm beginning to tire of this merry-go-round. It is clear you are firm in your position. I am clearly not going to be swayed. I keep saying - You haven't proved. You keep saying - I have proved. :rolleyes: Really, we're going a long way and getting nowhere. At this point I am happy simply agreeing that suicide is a horrible option for anyone to choose. Wouldn't you agree?

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 03:43 AM
So, in your view Abraham died in his sin and then had to repent after Yeshua descended?

I'm saying anyone that was in "hell" when Jesus came to preach the gospel died in their sins and that's why they were there.


Anyway, I'm beginning to tire of this merry-go-round. It is clear you are firm in your position. I am clearly not going to be swayed. I keep saying - You haven't proved. You keep saying - I have proved. :rolleyes: Really, we're going a long way and getting nowhere. At this point I am happy simply agreeing that suicide is a horrible option for anyone to choose. Wouldn't you agree?

Not always, no.

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 10:40 AM
hey guys you are forgetting that suicide is mentioned in the Bible.

Judas was filled with Satan, but repented then hanged himself. Don't know his heart, but I do know that God appointed hi to betray.
also Ahithophel was not a good man and gave bad advice to David and hanged himself after he took care of his household.
In both instances these men were not Godly men and the only cases I have seen in Scripture. I don't elieve there is anything Godly about killing yourself and it is very selfish.

True, except Judas didn't repent - he was remorseful - not the same thing. Someone has done a helpful Greek word study (earlier on this thread, I think - if not, apologies) for the word used for Judas regretting what he did and it's NOT metanaoo (repent).

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 10:45 AM
Suicide is mentioned in the bible but never said to be a sin or condemned. In this case suicide was the only good thing Judas did.

You earlier correctly equated homicide with murder - homicide means killing a man - suicide means killing yourself (so Latin WAS useful after all! Homo = man, sui = self, cidere = to kill). So suicide is murdering (intentionally killing) oneself.

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 10:47 AM
Repent before judgement day. It doesn't say you can't repent after dying since we are alive and awake after death.

Well why didn't Dives (the rich man) repent? Why was he so anxious that his brothers be told to repent BEFORE they ended up like him? The BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS answer is because there is NO opportunity after death - there is a great gulf fixed that NO MAN may cross! To imply that Jesus helps you across is complete speculation and contradicts many passages of Scripture.

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 10:50 AM
If they had already repented before death then they wouldn't have gone to "hell" where Christ came to rescue them.

They were in Sheol - the abode of the dead.


He came with the gospel, some accepted and repented and were cleansed by his shed blood AFTER they had died.

There is NOT ONE SHRED of biblical narrative to justify this!


So, it is a fact that it happened once.

No - it is your wishful thinking.


Now, whether it can happen again or not is speculation and based on faith but since it happened once I know it is possible to hear the gospel and be forgiven after death.

That is Satan's lie - millions are deceived into thinking there will be a second chance after death. There won't be.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 10:54 AM
You earlier correctly equated homicide with murder - homicide means killing a man - suicide means killing yourself (so Latin WAS useful after all! Homo = man, sui = self, cidere = to kill). So suicide is murdering (intentionally killing) oneself.

There is a difference between killing and murdering even when we talk of self-killing or self-murdering. Intentionally killing does not equal murder in all cases.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 10:57 AM
Well why didn't Dives (the rich man) repent?

It's not important why.


Why was he so anxious that his brothers be told to repent BEFORE they ended up like him?

Obviously he didn't want them to follow his path. The point of the story is to teach us to live as good men and not as bad. However, this doesn't address whether repentance can be made after death. It isn't the point of the story to cover that.



The BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS answer is because there is NO opportunity after death - there is a great gulf fixed that NO MAN may cross! To imply that Jesus helps you across is complete speculation and contradicts many passages of Scripture.

I have already proven Jesus can do it and has done it. What hasn't been proven is what you are claiming.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 11:00 AM
They were in Sheol - the abode of the dead.

Also called hell.



There is NOT ONE SHRED of biblical narrative to justify this!

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


That is Satan's lie - millions are deceived into thinking there will be a second chance after death. There won't be.

There is nothing about death that nullifies Christ's ability to forgive sins.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 11:15 AM
Studyin'2Show said:
At this point I am happy simply agreeing that suicide is a horrible option for anyone to choose. Wouldn't you agree?
Not always, no.Your response floors me! :o And I must say, even though we disagree on much, it completely surprised me. Suicide is not a bad option? :o What are you thinking? :cry:

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 11:19 AM
Studyin'2Show said:Your response floors me! :o And I must say, even though we disagree on much, it completely surprised me. Suicide is not a bad option? :o What are you thinking? :cry:

You left out part of my answer but I already knew you would.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 11:27 AM
Studyin'2Show said: Quote:
At this point I am happy simply agreeing that suicide is a horrible option for anyone to choose. Wouldn't you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1546638#post1546638)
Not always, no.




Hitler committed suicide. Was that a "horrible option"? I don't. I think it was appropriate.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 11:27 AM
You left out part of my answer but I already knew you would.That's because as I said in my previous post, I'm done doing the merry-go-round thing with you and your universal reconciliation view. So, I merely addressed the fact that you seem to say that sometimes suicide is a good option. That shocks me but gives me and anyone else following this a much better glimpse at your mindset.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 11:31 AM
Hitler committed suicide. Was that a "horrible option"? I don't. I think it was appropriate.From the world's mindset, it was great! But we are not supposed to be looking at things from the world's mindset but our minds are to be 'transformed' into the mind of Messiah who does not want that even one should perish. I would think Hitler repenting and coming Messiah would be the only option a follower of Yeshua should consider valid.

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 11:36 AM
That's because as I said in my previous post, I'm done doing the merry-go-round thing with you and your universal reconciliation view.

Don't misrepresent my views. I do not believe in UR and you have never heard me utter one word towards it. I simply believe in repentance and the power of Christ's blood. The lake of fire will have many souls when the time comes but that wasn't the topic of this thread was it?

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 12:17 PM
Don't misrepresent my views. I do not believe in UR and you have never heard me utter one word towards it. I simply believe in repentance and the power of Christ's blood. The lake of fire will have many souls when the time comes but that wasn't the topic of this thread was it?I stand corrected and apologize if you were offended. Your view has several things in common with that viewpoint. Okay, so I am done with the merry-go-round concerning your repenting after death view. We keep going back and forth and yet getting nowhere. It's clear you are firm in your position and I am quite firm in mine. So, I moved beyond that topic to the OP which had to do with taking ones own life hoping to get to some agreement but I guess there is no agreement to be had here.

God Bless!

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 02:39 PM
There is a difference between killing and murdering even when we talk of self-killing or self-murdering. Intentionally killing does not equal murder in all cases.

Talk to any lawyer and I think you'll find you're wrong - the only exception is self-defence but you can hardly use that in suicide!!!! :lol:

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 10:58 PM
Talk to any lawyer and I think you'll find you're wrong - :lol:

Actually any lawyer could explain the difference very well to you :)



the only exception is self-defence but you can hardly use that in suicide!!!!

Suicide could be self defense in some cases of illness, especially mental illness.

cnw
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:39 AM
you know naphal, you will argue any point no matter what is said. I think you are not willing to see truth and even contradict what is said.
The truth is what the Bible says - Matthew 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
there are few that enter into Heaven Naphal, because the heart is deceitfully wicked and many that believe they are saved aren't. The Bible doesn't elude to having any choices after death.
I am outa here.

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:03 AM
you know naphal, you will argue any point no matter what is said. I think you are not willing to see truth and even contradict what is said.
The truth is what the Bible says - Matthew 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
there are few that enter into Heaven Naphal, because the heart is deceitfully wicked and many that believe they are saved aren't. The Bible doesn't elude to having any choices after death.

I am outa here.

[/quote]


I disagree.

9Marksfan
Feb 22nd 2008, 11:33 AM
Actually any lawyer could explain the difference very well to you :)

Er, I was a lawyer for 20 years.......


Suicide could be self defense in some cases of illness, especially mental illness.

In cases of extreme mental illness, there may indeed be a lack of capacity - but I would love to hear what any judge would make of your definition of self-defense! Who is being defended if you are the victim?!?

Naphal
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:53 AM
Er, I was a lawyer for 20 years.......

Any lawyer that is not you and who is currently a lawyer then.



In cases of extreme mental illness, there may indeed be a lack of capacity - but I would love to hear what any judge would make of your definition of self-defense! Who is being defended if you are the victim?!?

Ever hear of multiple personalities? Ever hear of demon possession? I think a good lawyer could make a case for suicide being self defense in such cases.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 23rd 2008, 02:40 PM
I think this thread has pretty much run its course. :)

Naphal
Feb 23rd 2008, 08:03 PM
Any lawyer that is not you and who is currently a lawyer then.




Ever hear of multiple personalities? Ever hear of demon possession? I think a good lawyer could make a case for suicide being self defense in such cases.


Here is one case where animals committed suicide when possessed:


Matthew 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Matthew 8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:24 PM
See! I told you it had run its course! :lol:

9Marksfan
Feb 24th 2008, 03:24 PM
Any lawyer that is not you and who is currently a lawyer then.

I see - so you consider I was the most hopeless lawyer in the world, then? Thanks. And that all ex-lawyers immediately lose their ability to express any valid legal opinion. Hmm.....


Ever hear of multiple personalities?

Yes. I was a specialist mental health lawyer. As I said, in extreme cases there could be a defense of insanity or lack of mental capacity - but not self-defense!


Ever hear of demon possession?

Of course. But it isn't self-defense. And in the UK at any rate, it's not a defence in law. Is it in the US?


I think a good lawyer could make a case for suicide being self defense in such cases.

Hmm - have you spoken to any about it?

threebigrocks
Feb 24th 2008, 04:36 PM
Naphal, if suicide is self defense - then you are defending yourself against yourself. Which means that you are bad, intending to do yourself harm. I would have to conclude from your pov and insistence on this that you've sunk yourself. Bad people looking to purposely murder another are against God. "Thou shalt not murder." Those who are purposely against God are not for Him thus we can conlude that we wouldn't be heaven bound.

According to your notion of self defense. ;)

Seeker of truth
Feb 24th 2008, 05:25 PM
Naphal, if suicide is self defense - then you are defending yourself against yourself. Which means that you are bad, intending to do yourself harm. I would have to conclude from your pov and insistence on this that you've sunk yourself. Bad people looking to purposely murder another are against God. "Thou shalt not murder." Those who are purposely against God are not for Him thus we can conlude that we wouldn't be heaven bound.

According to your notion of self defense. ;)

Very good post and I totally agree!

Naphal
Feb 24th 2008, 09:45 PM
Naphal, if suicide is self defense - then you are defending yourself against yourself.

I said sometimes suicide could be self defense if the right conditions are happening such as possession or mental illness such as multiple personalities.

I don't believe every case of suicide is a sin or is murder. Every one is sad just as any death can be sad but we all know death isn't really death, that they return to God and are alive. God will fairly judge everyone and I believe the results will be very different than the typical opinion would be.

Seeker of truth
Feb 24th 2008, 09:53 PM
Suicide is murder. Self inflicted murder but still murder. Thou shalt not commit murder. Seems pretty much to the point.

9Marksfan
Feb 24th 2008, 10:12 PM
Naphal, if suicide is self defense - then you are defending yourself against yourself. Which means that you are bad, intending to do yourself harm. I would have to conclude from your pov and insistence on this that you've sunk yourself. Bad people looking to purposely murder another are against God. "Thou shalt not murder." Those who are purposely against God are not for Him thus we can conlude that we wouldn't be heaven bound.

According to your notion of self defense. ;)

TBR, according to Naphal, you'd make a HOPELESS lawyer!!!! :lol:

But, as a former lawyer, I would have been happy to have had you in my firm!!!

9Marksfan
Feb 24th 2008, 10:18 PM
I said sometimes suicide could be self defense if the right conditions are happening such as possession or mental illness such as multiple personalities.

I don't believe every case of suicide is a sin or is murder. Every one is sad just as any death can be sad but we all know death isn't really death, that they return to God and are alive. God will fairly judge everyone and I believe the results will be very different than the typical opinion would be.

Just to put the record straight, I don't believe that every professing Christian who commits suicide will go to Hell - if there is extreme mental illness to the extent that capacity to judge has gone, then I believe that it would be consistent with God's character to be merciful.

But while we have an eternal existence, the Bible is crystal clear that death sets in stone a person's destiny. Otherwise we wouldn't need to preach the gospel and warn people - we'd just have to spend all our time praying for the dead!

threebigrocks
Feb 24th 2008, 10:27 PM
TBR, according to Naphal, you'd make a HOPELESS lawyer!!!! :lol:

But, as a former lawyer, I would have been happy to have had you in my firm!!!

Even if it took me 84 posts? :D

threebigrocks
Feb 24th 2008, 10:29 PM
I said sometimes suicide could be self defense if the right conditions are happening such as possession or mental illness such as multiple personalities.

I don't believe every case of suicide is a sin or is murder. Every one is sad just as any death can be sad but we all know death isn't really death, that they return to God and are alive. God will fairly judge everyone and I believe the results will be very different than the typical opinion would be.

That would be a mercy killing - euthenasia of a human being. Still murder. ;)

Indeed, God will judge. And I pray that they are close enough to Christ to never rely on themselves but focus on Christ and suicide will stop. However that possibility I believe is far from reality.

9Marksfan
Feb 24th 2008, 11:23 PM
Even if it took me 84 posts? :D

Good lawyers are like good wine, they take a long time to mature! ;)

threebigrocks
Feb 25th 2008, 01:04 AM
Good lawyers are like good wine, they take a long time to mature! ;)

Cool! I can whine real good! :lol:

9Marksfan
Feb 25th 2008, 01:16 AM
Cool! I can whine real good! :lol:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Naphal
Feb 25th 2008, 04:00 AM
That would be a mercy killing - euthenasia of a human being. Still murder. ;)

It would only be murder if it is criminal in nature, and by that I do not mean simply against the laws of mankind. Not all mercy killings would be crimes against the person being killed.

militarywife
Feb 25th 2008, 06:07 AM
I said sometimes suicide could be self defense if the right conditions are happening such as possession or mental illness such as multiple personalities.

I don't believe every case of suicide is a sin or is murder. Every one is sad just as any death can be sad but we all know death isn't really death, that they return to God and are alive. God will fairly judge everyone and I believe the results will be very different than the typical opinion would be.

I ask Who is the great physician?
There are NO good reasons and NO justifiable reason to commit suicide. I mean no disrespect but your belief concerning this matter are NOT OF GOD.

Naphal
Feb 25th 2008, 06:40 AM
I ask Who is the great physician?
There are NO good reasons and NO justifiable reason to commit suicide. I mean no disrespect but your belief concerning this matter are NOT OF GOD.

Same to you :)


....................

Seeker of truth
Feb 25th 2008, 02:14 PM
I ask Who is the great physician?
There are NO good reasons and NO justifiable reason to commit suicide. I mean no disrespect but your belief concerning this matter are NOT OF GOD.

AMEN!
................