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Vivi
Feb 16th 2008, 02:22 AM
OK, I've been thinking that if there is no pre-trib rapture and we do have to be here for all 7 years what are we going to do? I mean whoever doesn't take the mark cannot buy or sell and it will become illegal to be a Christian so what should we do if we are stuck here? How should we prepare for these aweful times that are ahead and very near?

danield
Feb 16th 2008, 02:40 AM
I have been thinking this very question for some time now. We have to eat, but we can not buy or sell with out taking the mark. (Know that I am going to starve myself if it comes to that!) Even if there is a rapture, think of the people who are left behind who are going to try and live a life for the lord. It is going to be hard. I am not sure how it is going to be, but I pray to the lord that he will provide a way if indeed it is near.

Saved!
Feb 16th 2008, 02:45 AM
I used to try to prepare...to get things together to help my son, my husband and me make it through the trib. But, got to thinking about my Mom, Dad, Brother and his family, in-laws, friends, etc...I can't save food for us all, and which of these folks would I watch starve or suffer while I didn't? None of them!

So, I pray that God will provide.

heart hammer
Feb 16th 2008, 03:46 AM
I would recommend that you trust the Lord with all your heart soul mind and strength. This is the only way you will be able to hold fast through these times which are nearly upon us.
Take Care and God Bless

Kahtar
Feb 16th 2008, 02:38 PM
Learn to put your trust fully in God for all things now. He will provide.
More importantly, learn to love Him and commit your entire life to Him now. Then when they apprehend you and put the knife to your throat, you'll be able to confess Jesus Christ as Lord with your last breath.

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 04:28 PM
OK, I've been thinking that if there is no pre-trib rapture and we do have to be here for all 7 years what are we going to do? I mean whoever doesn't take the mark cannot buy or sell and it will become illegal to be a Christian so what should we do if we are stuck here? How should we prepare for these aweful times that are ahead and very near?

Just to encourage you, although knowing that you are likely to be kiiled is not an easy option.

Mk 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Mt 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

Lk 12:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 07:06 PM
Just to encourage you, although knowing that you are likely to be kiiled is not an easy option.

Mk 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Mt 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

Lk 12:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:


You have to remember WHO Jesus was speaking TO....
He wasn't speaking to US, 2000 years later. He was speaking TO The APOSTLES who were with him.
These were warnings, & signs for THEM.

The "Tribulation" and the "end of the age" referred to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.

Jesus didn't say, "some future generation, thousands of years from now will be delivered up & persecuted". Speaking to the Apostles he said,"When YOU...." meaning the Apostles.
THEY were to prepare for the Tribulation of those days.

If I were talking to you, & I said something to the effect of, "You will go to Disney World..." or "You will see me take care of a task....." You wouldn't think I was talking about someone many years, or several generations later..... you would know I literally meant YOU.

The Apostles would have been confused by Jesus' words if he said "You" but really meant "US- 2000 years later"

That's why context is important, as well as knowing what is literal & when it's literal. Because Jesus LITERALLY meant the Apostles when he was talking to them. He meant Their Generation would not pass away before these things were fulfilled.
If he said that, don't you think he meant it?
Don't you think those things WERE fulfilled if jesus said they WOULD BE?

:hmm:


So, we don't have to prepare for the Tribulation he spoke of.... we need to prepare for his promised return & final restoration of Paradise Lost, to Paradise Restored.

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 08:00 PM
You have to remember WHO Jesus was speaking TO....
He wasn't speaking to US, 2000 years later. He was speaking TO The APOSTLES who were with him.
These were warnings, & signs for THEM.

The "Tribulation" and the "end of the age" referred to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.

Jesus didn't say, "some future generation, thousands of years from now will be delivered up & persecuted". Speaking to the Apostles he said,"When YOU...." meaning the Apostles.
THEY were to prepare for the Tribulation of those days.

If I were talking to you, & I said something to the effect of, "You will go to Disney World..." or "You will see me take care of a task....." You wouldn't think I was talking about someone many years, or several generations later..... you would know I literally meant YOU.

The Apostles would have been confused by Jesus' words if he said "You" but really meant "US- 2000 years later"

That's why context is important, as well as knowing what is literal & when it's literal. Because Jesus LITERALLY meant the Apostles when he was talking to them. He meant Their Generation would not pass away before these things were fulfilled.
If he said that, don't you think he meant it?
Don't you think those things WERE fulfilled if jesus said they WOULD BE?

:hmm:


So, we don't have to prepare for the Tribulation he spoke of.... we need to prepare for his promised return & final restoration of Paradise Lost, to Paradise Restored.

So who are the beast and the false prophet that are here when Jesus returns?

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 08:30 PM
So who are the beast and the false prophet that are here when Jesus returns?

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Beast / False prophet was the Roman Empire / Nero Caesar.
The Dragon (Satan) "Gave the Beast (Rome) a mouth to speak".. (Nero)
He was the Image of the Beast. He demanded worship.

His "mark" was what you thought (The forehead) & whether or not you follwed HIM, & did according to him. (The right hand)

The Beast & the False Prophet are gone. Conquered... awaiting judgement on the Final Day, when Christ Returns, Judges the unrighteous, along with Satan & his fallen angels, casts them into the lake of fire, & restores Paradise with the New Heaven & new Earth.

There are still unfulfilled prophecies in Revelation...
If you're wondering "where" on a time-frame, & where we today fit on that time-frame, I'd say somewhere near the middle of Chapter 20.

All WE are looking for, & waiting for is the FINAL Return (2nd Coming) of Jesus, & the completion of his redemptive plan.

WE don't have to worry about the "Tribulation" spoken of in the Gospels. Nor do we need to worry about the Beast & mark of the Beast.

THOSE things have been fulfilled, just as John's prophecy said, & as Jesus said to the Apostles.

I'm not a "Preterist, nor Historicist"... But I'm also not a pre-Mil, Mid-Mil, or Post-Mil. I would say I'm Amillennial. Meaning- I believe there are yet to be fulfilled , future prophecies, (the final resurrection / judgement / restoration) but I don't subscribe to a literal 1000 year Earthly reign, with a rebuilt temple & reinstituted sacrifices.

I didn't always see it this way however. For 25 or so years, I looked at it as a Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil event. But there were too many questions & complications I ran into.
Once I learned to read scripture in light of scripture, & understood the parallels, symbolisms, types & shadows of the Old Testament, the linguistics & their meanings, then I started to understand what the Bible REALLY says about the "End Times".

Not only that, but I was relieved to know I didn't need to worry about The Wrath mentioned in Revelation.

:)

Athanasius
Feb 16th 2008, 08:38 PM
OK, I've been thinking that if there is no pre-trib rapture and we do have to be here for all 7 years what are we going to do? I mean whoever doesn't take the mark cannot buy or sell and it will become illegal to be a Christian so what should we do if we are stuck here? How should we prepare for these aweful times that are ahead and very near?

The most realistic answer is that you'll be killed quite fast, so it doesn't matter all that much. I mean, there's no hiding from satellites.
Or things that you can't see--demons.

Just trust in God, as people here have been saying.

In going with a pre-trib rapture, I've also wondered about those people who became Christians and are going to have to stay for seven years. Will it be seven years of trying to survive? Warring with the beast? Interesting questions . . . .

Kahtar
Feb 16th 2008, 08:38 PM
I didn't always see it this way however. For 25 or so years, I looked at it as a Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil event. But there were too many questions & complications I ran into.
Once I learned to read scripture in light of scripture, & understood the parallels, symbolisms, types & shadows of the Old Testament, the linguistics & their meanings, then I started to understand what the Bible REALLY says about the "End Times".
A couple problems with this kind of stuff. It tends to imply that those who don't happen to hold your view don't read scripture in light of scripture, or understand the parallels, symbolisms, types and shadows of the OT or the linguistics and their meanings, and therefore those who disagree with you don't understand what the Bible REALLY says about end times. I don't think we need to go there, first of all, and secondly, those who are familiar with such things as types and shadows, etc. can come to a number of different understandings. Doesn't mean any of them, including you, are correct, or wrong. Since none of us are THE authority on end times, let's leave those judgements aside.
The other issue is that you are now departing from the topic of this thread. Stick to the topic, and discuss these other things in another thread.

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 08:59 PM
A couple problems with this kind of stuff. It tends to imply that those who don't happen to hold your view don't read scripture in light of scripture, or understand the parallels, symbolisms, types and shadows of the OT or the linguistics and their meanings, and therefore those who disagree with you don't understand what the Bible REALLY says about end times. I don't think we need to go there, first of all, and secondly, those who are familiar with such things as types and shadows, etc. can come to a number of different understandings. Doesn't mean any of them, including you, are correct, or wrong. Since none of us are THE authority on end times, let's leave those judgements aside.
The other issue is that you are now departing from the topic of this thread. Stick to the topic, and discuss these other things in another thread.


I understand what you're saying.
However I don't think "I'm right & everyone else is wrong necessarily".
This IS one of those subjects we can debate over, without having to divide over.

In this sense, "Iron sharpens Iron". We can all gain from sharing our views, & learning the reasons WHY we hold certain views.

I was just answering questions that were asked of me, & giving the reasons why I personally hold a particular view.

I hope You all realize I'm not being judgemental, but rather giving you something to look into & study for yourself, to see what you think after taking it into consideration & reading the Bible from this point of view.

;)

boafa
Feb 16th 2008, 09:39 PM
M't 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

M't 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

the tribilation does not last 7 years. God shortens it to a five month period.

Athanasius
Feb 16th 2008, 10:28 PM
M't 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

M't 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

the tribilation does not last 7 years. God shortens it to a five month period.

How do you get five months out of that?

Merton
Feb 16th 2008, 11:40 PM
The Beast / False prophet was the Roman Empire / Nero Caesar.
The Dragon (Satan) "Gave the Beast (Rome) a mouth to speak".. (Nero)
He was the Image of the Beast. He demanded worship.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.



There are still unfulfilled prophecies in Revelation...
If you're wondering "where" on a time-frame, & where we today fit on that time-frame, I'd say somewhere near the middle of Chapter 20.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and Isaw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.




WE don't have to worry about the "Tribulation" spoken of in the Gospels. Nor do we need to worry about the Beast & mark of the Beast.

THOSE things have been fulfilled, just as John's prophecy said, & as Jesus said to the Apostles.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Once I learned to read scripture in light of scripture, & understood the parallels, symbolisms, types & shadows of the Old Testament, the linguistics & their meanings, then I started to understand what the Bible REALLY says about the "End Times".

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


Not only that, but I was relieved to know I didn't need to worry about The Wrath mentioned in Revelation.

:)

If we walk in the light then we do not have to worry about the Wrath mentioned in Revelation, but others who do not walk in the light ought to be worried about it and should be told so where necessary and any removal of such by suggesting that no one should be worried about it, is cause to be worried about it.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Merton

Just a Door Keeper
Feb 17th 2008, 12:06 AM
You have to remember WHO Jesus was speaking TO....
He wasn't speaking to US, 2000 years later. He was speaking TO The APOSTLES who were with him.
These were warnings, & signs for THEM.

The "Tribulation" and the "end of the age" referred to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.

Jesus didn't say, "some future generation, thousands of years from now will be delivered up & persecuted". Speaking to the Apostles he said,"When YOU...." meaning the Apostles.
THEY were to prepare for the Tribulation of those days.

If I were talking to you, & I said something to the effect of, "You will go to Disney World..." or "You will see me take care of a task....." You wouldn't think I was talking about someone many years, or several generations later..... you would know I literally meant YOU.

The Apostles would have been confused by Jesus' words if he said "You" but really meant "US- 2000 years later"

That's why context is important, as well as knowing what is literal & when it's literal. Because Jesus LITERALLY meant the Apostles when he was talking to them. He meant Their Generation would not pass away before these things were fulfilled.
If he said that, don't you think he meant it?
Don't you think those things WERE fulfilled if jesus said they WOULD BE?

:hmm:


So, we don't have to prepare for the Tribulation he spoke of.... we need to prepare for his promised return & final restoration of Paradise Lost, to Paradise Restored.

So, I guess that you don't regard John 3:16 as for you eh?
When studying the Bible we must remember that there is one interpretation but many applications. Yes the Lord Jesus was talking to Nicodemus in John 3:16 but the application is to any one who will believe!
And by the way why did you refer to a "Jehovahs Witness" book, "Paradise Lost to Paradise Restored". At least I think it is one of their titles, or something like it. Just wondering, that's all.

boafa
Feb 17th 2008, 12:28 AM
Rev 9:1 through 9:6 Christ is letting us know what he has shortened it to. He shoretened it to a 5 month period. May to Sept., form Passover to the Feast of Tabernacles that's a 5 month period. Should we rule out the other months, no. No one knows at aht hour Christ shall return. But i believe he has told us how long he has shortened the trib to. Read Joel 2:25 thru 32.

seeker_truth
Feb 17th 2008, 09:28 PM
OK, I've been thinking that if there is no pre-trib rapture and we do have to be here for all 7 years what are we going to do? I mean whoever doesn't take the mark cannot buy or sell and it will become illegal to be a Christian so what should we do if we are stuck here? How should we prepare for these aweful times that are ahead and very near?


You need not worry about the mark, name, or number of the beast, unless you plan on living in middle east...

seeker

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 12:27 PM
So, I guess that you don't regard John 3:16 as for you eh?
When studying the Bible we must remember that there is one interpretation but many applications. Yes the Lord Jesus was talking to Nicodemus in John 3:16 but the application is to any one who will believe!
And by the way why did you refer to a "Jehovahs Witness" book, "Paradise Lost to Paradise Restored". At least I think it is one of their titles, or something like it. Just wondering, that's all.


Actually I DO regard John 3:16 as valid, and important for EVERYONE, including myself. (I have no idea how you came up with the conclusion I disregard it..... There's nothing in my comments that even remotely support your claim.)

As far as Paradise Lost / Paradise Restored goes, I wasn't referring to a J.W. Book. God's redemptive plan is to restore Paradise & dwell amongst his people for ever.

"THE Tribulation" that has everyone confused & panicked, which Jesus spoke of, & John wrote about in Revelation, was in the 1st century.

ALL of us however, will have "tribulation" in our lives, of some form.

I'm STILL waiting for a good explanation of why "This Generation" & Soon & Near, & at hand could mean 2000 years later.
It really makes no sense logically......

Firstfruits
Feb 18th 2008, 12:45 PM
Actually I DO regard John 3:16 as valid, and important for EVERYONE, including myself. (I have no idea how you came up with the conclusion I disregard it..... There's nothing in my comments that even remotely support your claim.)

As far as Paradise Lost / Paradise Restored goes, I wasn't referring to a J.W. Book. God's redemptive plan is to restore Paradise & dwell amongst his people for ever.

"THE Tribulation" that has everyone confused & panicked, which Jesus spoke of, & John wrote about in Revelation, was in the 1st century.

ALL of us however, will have "tribulation" in our lives, of some form.

I'm STILL waiting for a good explanation of why "This Generation" & Soon & Near, & at hand could mean 2000 years later.
It really makes no sense logically......

Please explain the following;

Mt 12:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mt 23:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mt 24:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Has Jesus returned according to what he said to the generation that he spoke to?

Has he gathered his elect from the four winds?

Has the sign of the Son of man been seen in heaven?

Has the earth been made to mourn, and for what reason?

If Jesus could not mean another generation to come, and all these things did not happen in their generation can you explain why?

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 02:39 PM
Please explain the following;

Mt 12:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mt 23:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mt 24:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Has Jesus returned according to what he said to the generation that he spoke to?

Has he gathered his elect from the four winds?

Has the sign of the Son of man been seen in heaven?

Has the earth been made to mourn, and for what reason?

If Jesus could not mean another generation to come, and all these things did not happen in their generation can you explain why?





I have explained how these were fulfilled, and why I have this viewpoint.
I've done this Over & Over....

But, Here's what I don't understand;
Your Example of Jesus telling his Disciples: "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation". This seems pretty clear that Jesus meant exactly that.
How does "THIS GENERATION" become "a generation 2000+ years later"?

When Jesus said "Some of you here shall not taste death before all these things are fulfilled." That's what he meant.

How could it possibly mean anything BUT his disciples, to whom he was telling this?

To say Jesus really meant many generations later, after a span of over 2000 years, doesn't make sense at all.

Can anyone explain how that DOES make sense?

Firstfruits
Feb 18th 2008, 03:05 PM
I have explained how these were fulfilled, and why I have this viewpoint.
I've done this Over & Over....

But, Here's what I don't understand;
Your Example of Jesus telling his Disciples: "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation". This seems pretty clear that Jesus meant exactly that.
How does "THIS GENERATION" become "a generation 2000+ years later"?

When Jesus said "Some of you here shall not taste death before all these things are fulfilled." That's what he meant.

How could it possibly mean anything BUT his disciples, to whom he was telling this?

To say Jesus really meant many generations later, after a span of over 2000 years, doesn't make sense at all.

Can anyone explain how that DOES make sense?

Are you saying that according to my questions that Jesus has already returned and that he fulfilled that in the generation of the apostles?

My questions;
Has Jesus returned according to what he said to the generation that he spoke to?

Has he gathered his elect from the four winds?

Has the sign of the Son of man been seen in heaven?

Has the earth been made to mourn, and for what reason?

If Jesus could not mean another generation to come, and all these things did not happen in their generation can you explain why?

These are yes or no answers, they have either been fulfilled or they have not.

Kahtar
Feb 18th 2008, 03:20 PM
"This generation" can be viewed from a couple perspectives.
He could have been referring to the generation was speaking TO at that moment.
He also could have been referring the generation he was speaking ABOUT, ie, the generation that would see those things, and see the fig tree putting forth leaves.
Just depends on what shade of sunglasses you're wearing.;)

moonglow
Feb 18th 2008, 03:31 PM
You have to remember WHO Jesus was speaking TO....
He wasn't speaking to US, 2000 years later. He was speaking TO The APOSTLES who were with him.
These were warnings, & signs for THEM.

The "Tribulation" and the "end of the age" referred to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.

Jesus didn't say, "some future generation, thousands of years from now will be delivered up & persecuted". Speaking to the Apostles he said,"When YOU...." meaning the Apostles.
THEY were to prepare for the Tribulation of those days.

If I were talking to you, & I said something to the effect of, "You will go to Disney World..." or "You will see me take care of a task....." You wouldn't think I was talking about someone many years, or several generations later..... you would know I literally meant YOU.

The Apostles would have been confused by Jesus' words if he said "You" but really meant "US- 2000 years later"

That's why context is important, as well as knowing what is literal & when it's literal. Because Jesus LITERALLY meant the Apostles when he was talking to them. He meant Their Generation would not pass away before these things were fulfilled.
If he said that, don't you think he meant it?
Don't you think those things WERE fulfilled if jesus said they WOULD BE?

:hmm:


So, we don't have to prepare for the Tribulation he spoke of.... we need to prepare for his promised return & final restoration of Paradise Lost, to Paradise Restored.

First I wanted to say hi to all the new people on here that don't know me..I rarely post on here anymore..that is why you don't know me! lol

I hate to see markdrum standing alone with this view on this thread...though its not a popular view and this topic has been done to death on here...those demanding he defend his view...if you did a search you would find its been explained over and over and over indepth many times on here. I, personally hate to see people dwelling in fear and turmoil over this as God is not the author of fear. If you want to believe you will live through the tribulation that is fine...but you have got to NOT worry about it and put your trust in God totally. In the OT and even in the NT with Jesus, we see the miracles of God feeding people due to a shortage of food.

I happen to agree with mark though, Jesus was speaking to the disciples who we KNOW were killed. Paul was beheaded by orders of Nero...in fact I think three of the disciples were killed by orders of Nero. All of them were murdered except John who wrote Revelation. The whole debate comes down to when John wrote Revelation...as it stands now many think he wrote it after the destruction of the temple...after the destruction of Jerusalem...but if he had, why wouldn't he have mentioned that? So many died horrible deaths...many taken away as slaves...terrible, terrible things happened and for him to not mention one word of it, causes alot of us to think Revelation was actually written before this all took place. Only ONE person decided Revelations was written after 90 AD...Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans. Everyone else just repeated what this one scholar said.

At any rate...consider this for the mark if you think you will literally have to have a mark (or chip/ID) to buy and sell and everyone in the whole world has too also.

The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living on less than US$ (PPP) 1 per day, and moderate poverty as less than $2 a day. It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day.

Even if poverty may be lessening for the world as a whole, it continues to be an enormous problem:

One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes. That's 270 million people since 1990, the majority women and children, roughly equal to the population of the US.
Every year nearly 11 million children die before their fifth birthday.
800 million people go to bed hungry every day.
The three richest people in the world control more wealth than all 600 million people living in the world's poorest countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

Do you have any idea of the huge amount of money it would take to tag everyone in this world with any kind of mark? And so many do live in isolated areas of the world...in jungles, on mountains...in deep valleys, on islands...by the time they got to everyone which would take a massive amount of manpower and money, so many new babies would be born and several years old they would have to start all over again.

There ARE alot of people that live on the land, that hunt their food, drink from rivers....they have no idea what money is, or credit cards, or anything of the sorts....why would they care about an ID card or a chip? The antichrist would have to first solve the world's poverty problem so everyone even needed a chip and it would take alot more then three and a half years...or even seven to do this.

Adam Clark's bible commentary explains, using historical events what took place in the destruction of Jerusalem...he explains all of Matthew 24 in fact:
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024

At any rate there are different views regarding the end times and it hurts nothing to explore those other views...I have...I was raised believing in the pre-trib rapture...but too many things just didn't fit. Then I took the view of living through the tribulation..but again I couldn't get pass Jesus saying "this generation", though I will say Clark's view on 'this generation' isn't what I completely agree with. I really believe Jesus meant those living in THAT generation. Those that nailed Him to the cross were still living then.

Anyway...think about it, pray about it and most of all just trust the Lord whatever views you have on it.

God bless

moonglow
Feb 18th 2008, 03:38 PM
"This generation" can be viewed from a couple perspectives.
He could have been referring to the generation was speaking TO at that moment.
He also could have been referring the generation he was speaking ABOUT, ie, the generation that would see those things, and see the fig tree putting forth leaves.
Just depends on what shade of sunglasses you're wearing.;)

Compare the fig tree in Matthew 24, that many think means the re-claiming of Israel..becoming a nation again so saying this prophecy was fulfilled...to Luke 21:

29 Then he gave them this illustration: “Notice the fig tree, or any other tree. 30 When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near. 31 In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near.

Everyone zero's in on the fig tree in Matthew but overlooks what Jesus said in Luke...He didn't just speak about the fig tree, but any tree...explaining what the signs of the 'end of the age' would be...the end of Jerusalem are no different then when we see new spring leaves coming out on any tree in the springtime...we know spring is here...its sign. I don't know exactly who started this about the fig tree meaning Israel ...but I can't find that connection in the bible anywhere.

God bless

Firstfruits
Feb 18th 2008, 03:57 PM
Compare the fig tree in Matthew 24, that many think means the re-claiming of Israel..becoming a nation again so saying this prophecy was fulfilled...to Luke 21:

29 Then he gave them this illustration: “Notice the fig tree, or any other tree. 30 When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near. 31 In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near.

Everyone zero's in on the fig tree in Matthew but overlooks what Jesus said in Luke...He didn't just speak about the fig tree, but any tree...explaining what the signs of the 'end of the age' would be...the end of Jerusalem are no different then when we see new spring leaves coming out on any tree in the springtime...we know spring is here...its sign. I don't know exactly who started this about the fig tree meaning Israel ...but I can't find that connection in the bible anywhere.

God bless

Unless you can say that Jesus returned and fulfilled all that he said would happen to their generation then it Just does not add up;

For instance;

Mt 16:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I say to you that Jesus did not come in their generation and has still not yet come back, the heavens and earth still stand, and we are still here.

boafa
Feb 18th 2008, 04:09 PM
One of the reasons so many people have a hard time understanding God's word, is they don't understand the subject of the text.

I will take Mt 24:34 What is the subject? Well you have to go back to Mt 24:32 Christ is talking about the generation of the fig tree. So the subject is the generation of the fig tree.

So Mt 24:34 could read "Verily I say unto you, The generation of the fig tree shall not pass, till these things be fullfiled"......

When is the generation of the fig tree? We are in the that generation. That generation started in 1948, when Isreal became an independent nation. That happened just about 2000 years after taught the parable of the fig tree.

Christ taught and talked about things comming to pass in his generation and in our generation, the generation of the fig. But if you don't understand the subject in which he is teaching. You don't have a chance.

Everything is moving along just as God has planned. To answer your questions:

1. Yes and no

2. No

3. Yes and no. He was seen ascending ito heaven. But hasn't been seen in heaven as it talks of his return.

4. No

5. I answered this one above.....

Firstfruits
Feb 18th 2008, 04:33 PM
One of the reasons so many people have a hard time understanding God's word, is they don't understand the subject of the text.

I will take Mt 24:34 What is the subject? Well you have to go back to Mt 24:32 Christ is talking about the generation of the fig tree. So the subject is the generation of the fig tree.

So Mt 24:34 could read "Verily I say unto you, The generation of the fig tree shall not pass, till these things be fullfiled"......

When is the generation of the fig tree? We are in the that generation. That generation started in 1948, when Isreal became an independent nation. That happened just about 2000 years after taught the parable of the fig tree.

Christ taught and talked about things comming to pass in his generation and in our generation, the generation of the fig. But if you don't understand the subject in which he is teaching. You don't have a chance.

Everything is moving along just as God has planned. To answer your questions:

1. Yes and no

2. No

3. Yes and no. He was seen ascending ito heaven. But hasn't been seen in heaven as it talks of his return.

4. No

5. I answered this one above.....

Please let me know if these are in the right places, if not could you put your answers by the questions?

Are you saying that according to my questions that Jesus has already returned and that he fulfilled that in the generation of the apostles?
Yes and no

My questions;
Has Jesus returned according to what he said to the generation that he spoke to?

Has he gathered his elect from the four winds? No

Has the sign of the Son of man been seen in heaven? No

Has the earth been made to mourn, and for what reason? No

If Jesus could not mean another generation to come, and all these things did not happen in their generation can you explain why?

Is Jesus talking about the generation of a fig tree in this scripture?

Mt 16:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

moonglow
Feb 18th 2008, 04:47 PM
Unless you can say that Jesus returned and fulfilled all that he said would happen to their generation then it Just does not add up;

For instance;

Mt 16:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I say to you that Jesus did not come in their generation and has still not yet come back, the heavens and earth still stand, and we are still here.

Matthew 16:27-28...from Adam Clarks bible commentary:

Verse 27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father
This seems to refer to Daniel 7:13,14. "Behold, one like the Son of man came-to the ancient of Days-and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, and nations, and languages should serve him." This was the glorious Mediatorial kingdom which Jesus Christ was now about to set up, by the destruction of the Jewish nation and polity, and the diffusion of his Gospel through the whole world. If the words be taken in this sense, the angels or messengers may signify the apostles and their successors in the sacred ministry, preaching the Gospel in the power of the Holy Ghost. It is very likely that the words do not apply to the final judgment, to which they are generally referred; but to the wonderful display of God's grace and power after the day of pentecost.

Verse 28. There be some-which shall not taste of death
This verse seems to confirm the above explanation, as our Lord evidently speaks of the establishment of the Christian Church after the day of pentecost, and its final triumph after the destruction of the Jewish polity; as if he had said, "Some of you, my disciples, shall continue to live until these things take place." The destruction of Jerusalem, and the Jewish economy, which our Lord here predicts, took place about forty-three years after this: and some of the persons now with him doubtless survived that period, and witnessed the extension of the Messiah's kingdom; and our Lord told them these things before, that when they came to pass they might be confirmed in the faith, and expect an exact fulfilment of all the other promises and prophecies which concerned the extension and support of the kingdom of Christ.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=016


I know people hate copy and paste stuff ..I am sorry...I don't know how to explain some things in my own words. I do know Jesus speaks of many things being a shadow of things to come...when we take things too literally in the bible like I tend to do...we can miss the real meaning of His words.

Matthew 24:3:

Verse 3. Tell us, when shall these things be?
There appear to be three questions asked here by the disciples. 1st. When shall these things be? viz. the destruction of the city, temple, and Jewish state. 2dly. What shall be the sign of thy coming? viz. to execute these judgments upon them, and to establish thy own Church: and 3dly. When shall this world end? When wilt thou come to judge the quick and the dead? But there are some who maintain that these are but three parts of the same question, and that our Lord's answers only refer to the destruction of the Jewish state, and that nothing is spoken here concerning the LAST or judgment day.

The 1 Thess 4 ones are about the resurrection.

2 Peter is as far as I know, about the destruction of the world...


boafa One of the reasons so many people have a hard time understanding God's word, is they don't understand the subject of the text.

I will take Mt 24:34 What is the subject? Well you have to go back to Mt 24:32 Christ is talking about the generation of the fig tree. So the subject is the generation of the fig tree.

So Mt 24:34 could read "Verily I say unto you, The generation of the fig tree shall not pass, till these things be fullfiled"......

I find it dangerous to change scripture around like this..it can lead to huge misunderstandings of the scriptures...I realize you are using this for an example. I don't see Jesus saying this at all...this generation of the fig tree...fig trees were around long before Jesus came here and long after. I really think people read way too much into the whole fig tree thing actually. Jesus says totally nothing at all about this generation in Mat 24:32:

Matthew 24:32

32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.

God bless

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 06:14 PM
Are you saying that according to my questions that Jesus has already returned and that he fulfilled that in the generation of the apostles?

My questions;
Has Jesus returned according to what he said to the generation that he spoke to?

Has he gathered his elect from the four winds?

Has the sign of the Son of man been seen in heaven?

Has the earth been made to mourn, and for what reason?

If Jesus could not mean another generation to come, and all these things did not happen in their generation can you explain why?

These are yes or no answers, they have either been fulfilled or they have not.

Let me see if I can explain these more clearly:

Q: Has Jesus returned according to what he said to the generation that he spoke to?
A: Yes. He "returned" according to what he said. He told them they would see him coming with clouds having Great Power & Glory, seated at the Right Hand of God. This DID happen with the destruction of the temple & of Jerusalem. It was Judgement upon those who rejected him, & crucified him.

Q: Has he gathered his elect from the four winds?
A: Yes. Jesus doesn't need to come "for" His saints, because they are already with Him, as he told the thief at Calvary in Lk.23:43, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.", and certainly this thief is not the only one with Jesus in Paradise. Peter and Paul are also with Him, as well as the rest of the Saints who already died!...To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Q: Has the sign of the Son of man been seen in heaven?
A: Yes. Again, They saw hime "Come with clouds", having great power & Glory. It was a SIGN of his Vindication as the TRUE King of Israel, to show them CAESAR was NOT the King.

Q: Has the earth been made to mourn, and for what reason?
A: Yes. The Earth has been mourning since the crucifixion, knowing the true messiah was rejected, but the faithful & hopeful know he will Come AGAIN, to fulfill the last prophecy of a "New Heaven & New Earth."

Q: If Jesus could not mean another generation to come, and all these things did not happen in their generation can you explain why?
A: Jesus DID NOT mean another, future generation to come; because all these things DID happen within their generation, just as Jesus promised.
Had they NOT taken place while the disciples were still alive, Jesus' prophecy would have been seen as "FALSE". Jesus' words were meant as a near future fulfillemt, to validate his claims, & to validate his deity as the Messiah.

I think the confusion many people have is, assumming the word "COMING" always means "Returning"... as in "His second coming / Final fulfillment". That, however is not the context in this situation.
Jesus was referring to the "End of the Age. (Being the age of Old Testament laws & Sacrifices... THOSE days, or Ages would come to and end, having conquered Death & Sin through the crucifixion & bodily resurrection)

So knowing Jesus DID in fact rise again, fully alive, and Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed, (Every building's stone turned up from one another) it was Evidence of the fulfiullment of Jesus' prophecy.

I hope that helps explain how none of that referred to another future, yet to come generation, over 2000 years later.

It wasn't the signs of the "End of the Planet, or end of TIME altogether", it was the signs of the end of the old sacrificial laws, & need for a temple. JESUS became THE temple, or tabernacle, & was the FINAL, ULTIMATE sacrifice.

:)

boafa
Feb 18th 2008, 09:53 PM
Yes. He "returned" according to what he said. He told them they would see him coming with clouds having Great Power & Glory, seated at the Right Hand of God. This DID happen with the destruction of the temple & of Jerusalem. It was Judgement upon those who rejected him, & crucified him.


I'm needing some scriptures. This will happen on the sounding of the last trump


Q: Has he gathered his elect from the four winds?
A: Yes. Jesus doesn't need to come "for" His saints, because they are already with Him, as he told the thief at Calvary in Lk.23:43, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.", and certainly this thief is not the only one with Jesus in Paradise. Peter and Paul are also with Him, as well as the rest of the Saints who already died!...To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.


the elcect aren't called until anti-christ sets up his his kindom in Jerusalem. The elect will be delivered up to anti-christ and the Holy Spirit will speak through them. This is not talking about saints who have died and are in paradise.


If Jesus could not mean another generation to come, and all these things did not happen in their generation can you explain why?
A: Jesus DID NOT mean another, future generation to come; because all these things DID happen within their generation, just as Jesus promised.
Had they NOT taken place while the disciples were still alive, Jesus' prophecy would have been seen as "FALSE". Jesus' words were meant as a near future fulfillemt, to validate his claims, & to validate his deity as the Messiah.


Have you read the rest of Mt 24. None of this has happened yet. It is not yet as the days of Noah. When were two in the field one was taken and the other was left. Hasn't happened yet....

Firstfruits
Feb 18th 2008, 10:00 PM
Let me see if I can explain these more clearly:

Q: Has Jesus returned according to what he said to the generation that he spoke to?
A: Yes. He "returned" according to what he said. He told them they would see him coming with clouds having Great Power & Glory, seated at the Right Hand of God. This DID happen with the destruction of the temple & of Jerusalem. It was Judgement upon those who rejected him, & crucified him.

Q: Has he gathered his elect from the four winds?
A: Yes. Jesus doesn't need to come "for" His saints, because they are already with Him, as he told the thief at Calvary in Lk.23:43, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.", and certainly this thief is not the only one with Jesus in Paradise. Peter and Paul are also with Him, as well as the rest of the Saints who already died!...To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Q: Has the sign of the Son of man been seen in heaven?
A: Yes. Again, They saw hime "Come with clouds", having great power & Glory. It was a SIGN of his Vindication as the TRUE King of Israel, to show them CAESAR was NOT the King.

Q: Has the earth been made to mourn, and for what reason?
A: Yes. The Earth has been mourning since the crucifixion, knowing the true messiah was rejected, but the faithful & hopeful know he will Come AGAIN, to fulfill the last prophecy of a "New Heaven & New Earth."

Q: If Jesus could not mean another generation to come, and all these things did not happen in their generation can you explain why?
A: Jesus DID NOT mean another, future generation to come; because all these things DID happen within their generation, just as Jesus promised.
Had they NOT taken place while the disciples were still alive, Jesus' prophecy would have been seen as "FALSE". Jesus' words were meant as a near future fulfillemt, to validate his claims, & to validate his deity as the Messiah.

I think the confusion many people have is, assumming the word "COMING" always means "Returning"... as in "His second coming / Final fulfillment". That, however is not the context in this situation.
Jesus was referring to the "End of the Age. (Being the age of Old Testament laws & Sacrifices... THOSE days, or Ages would come to and end, having conquered Death & Sin through the crucifixion & bodily resurrection)

So knowing Jesus DID in fact rise again, fully alive, and Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed, (Every building's stone turned up from one another) it was Evidence of the fulfiullment of Jesus' prophecy.

I hope that helps explain how none of that referred to another future, yet to come generation, over 2000 years later.

It wasn't the signs of the "End of the Planet, or end of TIME altogether", it was the signs of the end of the old sacrificial laws, & need for a temple. JESUS became THE temple, or tabernacle, & was the FINAL, ULTIMATE sacrifice.

:)

When was the following fulfilled?

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mt 24:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

These are what Jesus said must be fulfilled in their generation, so the questions are valid.

Firstfruits

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 10:38 PM
When was the following fulfilled?

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mt 24:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

These are what Jesus said must be fulfilled in their generation, so the questions are valid.

Firstfruits

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

-I've answered this several times over several posts. Jesus spoke of the destruction of the temple & the surrounding buildings. The disciples asked when would this happen, & what would be the sign?
Jesus mentions the "Abomination of Desolation"... (referencing the previous event in Daniel, which was fulfilled the first time by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, & the abomination of Pigs being slaughtered on the Altar, & a statue of Zeus Olympus being erected.) Jesus was talking about a near future event, just like the one in Daniel, which was fulfilled when NERO CAESAR slaughtered the Pharisees on the altar, Thus, leaving the temple DESOLATE.

Mt 24:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

- This meant that the Gospel be preached to ALL NATIONS that were to be affected by the event. When all those people within the surrounding nations of Israel had heard the Gospel, THEN the end "of the age" would come.

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

- Matthew 28:20 is not within the same context as the previous examples.
This was AFTER THE RESURRECTION.
Jesus was INDEED able to "be with them" always from that point, as he was glorified, & the Spirit would be poured out onto the Christian Church.
There was no need for a temple to be with God, for he would now be with them forever.

------------------------------------------------------------------

My questions, (which I've asked, but have never been given an answer-but rather more questions, repetitive in nature I might add) are this:

Why would Jesus tell his disciples THEY would see these things, if they would NOT see them?

If some of THEM standing there would not taste death until all these things be fulfilled, then what does that mean?
A:- that they WERE FULFILLED...
or B:- that at least a couple of the disciples are still alive amongst the rest of us, today... 2000 years later.
(Personally, I find "B" hard to accept)

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 10:43 PM
I'm needing some scriptures. This will happen on the sounding of the last trump



the elcect aren't called until anti-christ sets up his his kindom in Jerusalem. The elect will be delivered up to anti-christ and the Holy Spirit will speak through them. This is not talking about saints who have died and are in paradise.



Have you read the rest of Mt 24. None of this has happened yet. It is not yet as the days of Noah. When were two in the field one was taken and the other was left. Hasn't happened yet....


I've answered all THESE questions / statements several times as well.
But let me address one of them in particular.

the elcect aren't called until anti-christ sets up his his kindom in Jerusalem. The elect will be delivered up to anti-christ and the Holy Spirit will speak through them. This is not talking about saints who have died and are in paradise.

True,
The Elect could NOT be called until after the Beast was in power, & the Elect were delivered up into the hands of the Beast.
However, "The BEAST - 666 / Antichrist" WAS in power, & the saints WERE delivered up to him & eventually killed for Jesus' name.
NERO CAESAR was the Beast of Revelation, & he DID cause Desolation in the temple, which ultimately was destroyed.

boafa
Feb 18th 2008, 10:56 PM
No the beast in Revelation is the one world system which will die of a deadly wound. Then anti-christ which is the desolator of the abomination of desolation comes in peace, and claims to be christ, to set up his kingdom and to heal the deadly system.

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 11:52 PM
No the beast in Revelation is the one world system which will die of a deadly wound. Then anti-christ which is the desolator of the abomination of desolation comes in peace, and claims to be christ, to set up his kingdom and to heal the deadly system.


I have a question for you about that;

Where does scripture say the Beast is a "one world system"?

Where does scripture say the "AntiChrist comes in peace to set up his kingdom?"

Where does scripture say he Claims TO BE Christ?

Firstfruits
Feb 19th 2008, 10:08 AM
If the gospel of the kingdom was only for those to be affected by the event, what is the point of the gospel for us today?

Are we not saved by the same gospel?

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Are we not stablished by the same gospel?

Rom 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Is there another gospel by which we can be saved?

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Do we not not have the same command regarding the gospel?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mk 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.

What Jesus said to the disciples was certainly not only for their generation, unless of course you are not saved by that same gospel we had from the begining.

Please excuse the mispelt title.

IBWatching
Feb 19th 2008, 04:46 PM
OK, I've been thinking that if there is no pre-trib rapture and we do have to be here for all 7 years what are we going to do? I mean whoever doesn't take the mark cannot buy or sell and it will become illegal to be a Christian so what should we do if we are stuck here? How should we prepare for these aweful times that are ahead and very near?

How would you prepare? You'll be "unmarked" and everyone who is will know it. Even if you have a bunker full of food and water, what do you think will happen when they find out where you are? You'll be outnumbered. They'll simply drag you out of there and have you put on trial for not worshiping their system and executed. What would you do? Fight back with guns? They'll just send more of their own.

OK. My strawman is done. Jesus made it plain that this will be the WORST time mankind has/will ever experience. Yet all around us we have Christians telling us how to "survive" a time that Jesus said no one would if God hadn't cut that time short. Are you really listening to what He says?

Carmy
Feb 19th 2008, 06:03 PM
I didn't read all of the posts, but I'm going to go back to the original question because I think people strayed WAYYYYYY off track. I don't know if it got back on track or not but the answer is actually very simple.


Exod 16:13-15
13 And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.
14 And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.
15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
(KJV)

Do we not believe that God will provide for us as he did back then?

If we have our focus on Him, He will tell us what to do when the time comes and He will lead out path. He provided a cloud once and they moved when the cloud moved and stopped when the cloud stopped. Isn't that what we need to learn? That's faith.

He said he provides for the animals, so wouldn't he provide for us?

You should be preparing, that's the truth. It's your heart that you need to be preparing. Getting your life in order so you are not left out in the cold like the 5 foolish virgins who were not prepared. The rest, well that's in God's hands. Didn't he turn a little bit of food into enough to feed the multitude? All you need to do is prepare your heart and the Lord will take care of the rest.

Firstfruits
Feb 20th 2008, 10:11 AM
I didn't read all of the posts, but I'm going to go back to the original question because I think people strayed WAYYYYYY off track. I don't know if it got back on track or not but the answer is actually very simple.


Exod 16:13-15
13 And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.
14 And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.
15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
(KJV)

Do we not believe that God will provide for us as he did back then?

If we have our focus on Him, He will tell us what to do when the time comes and He will lead out path. He provided a cloud once and they moved when the cloud moved and stopped when the cloud stopped. Isn't that what we need to learn? That's faith.

He said he provides for the animals, so wouldn't he provide for us?

You should be preparing, that's the truth. It's your heart that you need to be preparing. Getting your life in order so you are not left out in the cold like the 5 foolish virgins who were not prepared. The rest, well that's in God's hands. Didn't he turn a little bit of food into enough to feed the multitude? All you need to do is prepare your heart and the Lord will take care of the rest.

Jesus has prepared us and told us what to expect before the tribulation/wrath of God comes.

Mt 24:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mt 24:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mt 24:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This is for the time of the end, when the beast shall reign.

Dan 11:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This is what Jesus has told us will happen and again let me say this is before the great tribulation.

IBWatching
Feb 20th 2008, 11:04 PM
...Do we not believe that God will provide for us as he did back then?...He said he provides for the animals, so wouldn't he provide for us?...You should be preparing, that's the truth...

I have no argument that God's Grace often is seen and operates in our lives. But there is a difference between the Church, whom God deals with spiritually, and Israel, whom God made specific promises to regarding land, seed and blessing. The only blessings the Church was promised are spiritual. There were no physical blessings promised. In addition, God always dealt with the gentile nations and Israel in a literal. physical way. He doesn't deal with the Church that way:


Hebrews 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

There are no more "portions" or "ways" in which God deals with the Church. The Church is Indwelt by the Holy Spirit, Who gives us all knowledge, and Jesus Christ, Who has given us every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies. That's ALL the Church was ever Promised.

Read Leviticus again. Tell me what kind of God you see there. Is there a God who is Loving? Yes. But there is also a God who is Holy and punishes disobedience. His commands were strict and so was His punishment. Even Aaron's sons weren't spared when they disobeyed, and they were offering sacrifices! God Provided for Israel always...but He also punished disobedience...always. That's how He deals with the gentile nations and Israel.

God has Promised a time of retribution for sins. He calls it the Day of the Lord. Those who enter that time period are not exempt, under any circumstances:


Luke 21:34 "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come uponall those who dwell on the face of all the earth.


Revelation 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that {hour} which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus never talked about anyone escaping. Prepare all you want, but once the Church is completed and has left the earth, it again falls into the Hands of a Righteous, Vengeful God. He will have His Day:


Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

This is both a warning and an opportunity. The opportunity lies in repenting and coming to Jesus Christ now, in this Church Age, receiving all spiritual blessings and an abundant life. Paul knows that anyone who lives to see that "day" will not escape it. But right now, there is a window of opportunity. But it's closing...fast.

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 01:53 AM
I have no argument that God's Grace often is seen and operates in our lives. But there is a difference between the Church, whom God deals with spiritually, and Israel, whom God made specific promises to regarding land, seed and blessing. The only blessings the Church was promised are spiritual. There were no physical blessings promised. In addition, God always dealt with the gentile nations and Israel in a literal. physical way. He doesn't deal with the Church that way:



There are no more "portions" or "ways" in which God deals with the Church. The Church is Indwelt by the Holy Spirit, Who gives us all knowledge, and Jesus Christ, Who has given us every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies. That's ALL the Church was ever Promised.

Read Leviticus again. Tell me what kind of God you see there. Is there a God who is Loving? Yes. But there is also a God who is Holy and punishes disobedience. His commands were strict and so was His punishment. Even Aaron's sons weren't spared when they disobeyed, and they were offering sacrifices! God Provided for Israel always...but He also punished disobedience...always. That's how He deals with the gentile nations and Israel.

God has Promised a time of retribution for sins. He calls it the Day of the Lord. Those who enter that time period are not exempt, under any circumstances:





Jesus never talked about anyone escaping. Prepare all you want, but once the Church is completed and has left the earth, it again falls into the Hands of a Righteous, Vengeful God. He will have His Day:



This is both a warning and an opportunity. The opportunity lies in repenting and coming to Jesus Christ now, in this Church Age, receiving all spiritual blessings and an abundant life. Paul knows that anyone who lives to see that "day" will not escape it. But right now, there is a window of opportunity. But it's closing...fast.


God has only ever had "ONE PEOPLE".
There's not plan #1 for "the Church", and another (Plan #2) for "Israel as a Nation. God's people aren't determined by race, but rather by RELATIONSHIP.

WE, being ALL followers of Jesus, are "TRUE Israel".
As it was stated in the scripture, "In Christ, There is neither Jew nor Greek...."

Abraham was to be the Father of MANY Nations.... Not the Father of "a" Nation....

Ruth was a Moabite... an enemy of the Jewish people; yet she put her faith in "The God of Israel".... Ruth was in the physical bloodline which eventually Jesus was born from.

There's no difference between "Israel" & the "Church".

Mark F
Feb 21st 2008, 02:37 AM
markdrums said:
God has only ever had "ONE PEOPLE".
There's not plan #1 for "the Church", and another (Plan #2) for "Israel as a Nation. God's people aren't determined by race, but rather by RELATIONSHIP.

WE, being ALL followers of Jesus, are "TRUE Israel".
As it was stated in the scripture, "In Christ, There is neither Jew nor Greek...."

Abraham was to be the Father of MANY Nations.... Not the Father of "a" Nation....

Ruth was a Moabite... an enemy of the Jewish people; yet she put her faith in "The God of Israel".... Ruth was in the physical bloodline which eventually Jesus was born from.

There's no difference between "Israel" & the "Church".


Where is David Taylor when you need him? LOL

markdrums, I suppose then that this verse was a slip on God's part,

Joel 3

1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land."

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 04:02 AM
Where is David Taylor when you need him? LOL

markdrums, I suppose then that this verse was a slip on God's part,

Joel 3

1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land."

Hey Mark, (cool name btw!!) ;)

OK, here's the thing;
No...... Not a slip on God's part.

But...... Could it be more that, too many people assume EVERY prophetic, Apocalyptic verse in the Bible, (Old AND New Testament) has something to do with the "End Times"... and somehow relates to the 21st century?
(THAT is more likely the case)

Who are the "Captives of Judah"?? (I doubt any of us today would qualify, at least while keeping the context of the verse.)

And concerning "heritage", let me go back (again) to someone in Jesus' "heritage".... where his (Physical, earthly) bloodline came from....

Ruth....
NOT from "Israel". NOT a "Jew". Yet, Jesus happeed to be a descendent from Ruth....

Sure, the Bible says,
"Israel.... Israel.... Israel.... Israel.... Israel this... Israel that.... Jews .... etc...."

(I'll say it again).... In Christ we are no longer Jew nor Greek, Nor Gentile... etc. etc.....

It makes NO difference what ethnicity you are, or what "country" you live in. If you're a Believer in the ONE TRUE GOD, who revealed himself as shown in the Bible, & have accepted the substitute sacrifice in Jesus, Then YOU are an Heir to the Promise given to Abraham.

There's no separate plan for "Israel" as a "small chunk of desert land", or "Jew by ethnic background".

On the day of the Rapture, (the FINAL day) we're ALL called up to stand before our Father.
Some to eternal life; some to eternal torment.

There's no seven years after the final day.
There's no 1000 years beyond the "imaginary seven years".
When that day comes, THAT'S ALL FOLKS!
No second chance for salvation.... no "GREAT" tribulation afterward, no 1000 year earthly reign, with a new temple & sacrifices.....

It's WITH the LORD for eternity, or separated from him for eternity.

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 11:10 AM
Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

-I've answered this several times over several posts. Jesus spoke of the destruction of the temple & the surrounding buildings. The disciples asked when would this happen, & what would be the sign?
Jesus mentions the "Abomination of Desolation"... (referencing the previous event in Daniel, which was fulfilled the first time by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, & the abomination of Pigs being slaughtered on the Altar, & a statue of Zeus Olympus being erected.) Jesus was talking about a near future event, just like the one in Daniel, which was fulfilled when NERO CAESAR slaughtered the Pharisees on the altar, Thus, leaving the temple DESOLATE.

Mt 24:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

- This meant that the Gospel be preached to ALL NATIONS that were to be affected by the event. When all those people within the surrounding nations of Israel had heard the Gospel, THEN the end "of the age" would come.

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

- Matthew 28:20 is not within the same context as the previous examples.
This was AFTER THE RESURRECTION.
Jesus was INDEED able to "be with them" always from that point, as he was glorified, & the Spirit would be poured out onto the Christian Church.
There was no need for a temple to be with God, for he would now be with them forever.

------------------------------------------------------------------

My questions, (which I've asked, but have never been given an answer-but rather more questions, repetitive in nature I might add) are this:

Why would Jesus tell his disciples THEY would see these things, if they would NOT see them?

If some of THEM standing there would not taste death until all these things be fulfilled, then what does that mean?
A:- that they WERE FULFILLED...
or B:- that at least a couple of the disciples are still alive amongst the rest of us, today... 2000 years later.
(Personally, I find "B" hard to accept)

If the gospel of the kingdom was only for those to be affected by the event, what is the point of the gospel for us today?

Are we not saved by the same gospel?

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Are we not stablished by the same gospel?

Rom 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Is there another gospel by which we can be saved?

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Do we not not have the same command regarding the gospel?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mk 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.

What Jesus said to the disciples was certainly not only for their generation, unless of course you are not saved by that same gospel we had from the begining.

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 01:58 PM
If the gospel of the kingdom was only for those to be affected by the event, what is the point of the gospel for us today?

Are we not saved by the same gospel?

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Are we not stablished by the same gospel?

Rom 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Is there another gospel by which we can be saved?

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Do we not not have the same command regarding the gospel?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mk 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.

What Jesus said to the disciples was certainly not only for their generation, unless of course you are not saved by that same gospel we had from the begining.

Do you copy & paste the same 2-3 posts over & over?
It's like the exact same sets of questions & comments from somewhere before....

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 02:06 PM
Do you copy & paste the same 2-3 posts over & over?
It's like the exact same sets of questions & comments from somewhere before....

It was in this same thread but to my knowledge it was not answered.

IBWatching
Feb 21st 2008, 07:23 PM
...There's no difference between "Israel" & the "Church".


Ephesians 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

There was no Church of Christ spoken of in the OT. They had no clue what it was. So if it wasn't the Church, then WHO was it?

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 08:01 PM
Do you copy & paste the same 2-3 posts over & over?
It's like the exact same sets of questions & comments from somewhere before....

Is is possible to get an answer to this question?

If the gospel of the kingdom was only for those to be affected by the event, what is the point of the gospel for us today?

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:28 AM
If the gospel of the kingdom was only for those to be affected by the event, what is the point of the gospel for us today?

Are we not saved by the same gospel?

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Are we not stablished by the same gospel?

Rom 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Is there another gospel by which we can be saved?

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Do we not not have the same command regarding the gospel?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mk 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.

What Jesus said to the disciples was certainly not only for their generation, unless of course you are not saved by that same gospel we had from the begining.

Yea I would like to know to what he meant...he lost me on that part.

markdrums..when people keep asking over and over its partly because they don't understand..and partly they seeing the elephant from the other end then you are! Its really hard to 'see' what you are seeing...if you know what I mean...

God bless

Carmy
Feb 22nd 2008, 08:32 PM
FirstFruits, I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

I do believe that the Lord has prepared us for what's ahead, but the scriptures you show are about what other people will do to us. What I was referring to was that it seems people are worried what may happen to us doing this time. I don't think there is anything to worry about. The bible keeps telling us not to fear, not to worry, God will provide.... We just have to put it all in God's hands and not worry or fear the future.

IBW you said:
I have no argument that God's Grace often is seen and operates in our lives. But there is a difference between the Church, whom God deals with spiritually, and Israel, whom God made specific promises to regarding land, seed and blessing. The only blessings the Church was promised are spiritual. There were no physical blessings promised. In addition, God always dealt with the gentile nations and Israel in a literal. physical way. He doesn't deal with the Church that way:

Yes, but who is to say that He won't provide for us again? We may not see manna as they did, but I do believe that we have nothing to worry about and that God will provide for all of our needs. Although we don't see God in a physical way right now, that could change, or God may provide in other ways that we can't even imagine as of yet.

You also said:
God has Promised a time of retribution for sins. He calls it the Day of the Lord. Those who enter that time period are not exempt, under any circumstances:


I do realize this. It's why we are to fear the Lord. We will all be held accountable for our sins. But there is also a way out that is made for us. Well, it's not exactly a way out, I'm not sure what words to use here but when we repent and turn from our sin, we are forgiven. If we don't repent, we are held accountable.

I think I have a lot to learn from you. I sure wish I could be in a room with several people here and we could all have a great, civilized, conversation and bible study together. We could learn so much together where the forum hinders us sometimes.

BrotherRoy
Feb 23rd 2008, 12:16 AM
In relation to preparation for the tribulation. I think we should be careful when we try to sway those convicted to prepare. God through his providence could be laying it on some hearts and minds to prepare for those who do not. It could be in these times someone from the city flees to the rural home open home of Christians who do prepare for these times. Not all will be caught and killed during the mark.

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:18 AM
FirstFruits, I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

I do believe that the Lord has prepared us for what's ahead, but the scriptures you show are about what other people will do to us. What I was referring to was that it seems people are worried what may happen to us doing this time. I don't think there is anything to worry about. The bible keeps telling us not to fear, not to worry, God will provide.... We just have to put it all in God's hands and not worry or fear the future.

IBW you said:

Yes, but who is to say that He won't provide for us again? We may not see manna as they did, but I do believe that we have nothing to worry about and that God will provide for all of our needs. Although we don't see God in a physical way right now, that could change, or God may provide in other ways that we can't even imagine as of yet.

You also said:

I do realize this. It's why we are to fear the Lord. We will all be held accountable for our sins. But there is also a way out that is made for us. Well, it's not exactly a way out, I'm not sure what words to use here but when we repent and turn from our sin, we are forgiven. If we don't repent, we are held accountable.

I think I have a lot to learn from you. I sure wish I could be in a room with several people here and we could all have a great, civilized, conversation and bible study together. We could learn so much together where the forum hinders us sometimes.

This was in regards to a statement by Markdrums that the gospel was only for their generation and that all that had been prophesied to the disciples had been fulfilled, hence my question.

If the gospel of the kingdom was only for those to be affected by the event, what is the point of the gospel for us today?

Carmy
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:21 AM
I agree BrotherRoy and I'm certainly not trying to convince someone not to prepare. I just don't think people should worry so much about it. I have found that sometimes people spend so much time worrying about what is to come, that it hinders their daily walk. I have seen that in people around my area anyway.

There are things I wish I could do to prepare. Unfortunately, I'm not in that position to be able to carry it out right now. However, I think fear can paralyze a person or cause them to turn from the Lord when what we really need to do is turn to Him and rely on Him more instead of worrying.