PDA

View Full Version : Properly understanding REVELATION



markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 08:56 AM
Hello all,
I just ran across this website during an episode of insomnia... (Hey, there are worse things that could happen... LOL!!)

Anyway, I wanted to share some things that helped me gain more understanding of Eschatology. (aka End Times) Largely involving "Revelation". (But also the Bible as a whole)

I'll have to periodically do this in several threads, over a little time... but it's worth it. :)

I had been struggling with all the theories, opinions, time-frames, etc. and was beginning to get a little worried about when and how these things would take place. I also was worried about "The Antichrist / Mark of the Beast" & wondered if I should start watching for the arrival.....

Sound like familiar events?

Here's what helped me FINALLY understand the book of Revelation. (As well as the rest of the Bible)

Firstly, this IS a form of literature, & communication. So read the Bible as you would read other forms of literature. Picking up the context of when something is "literal" or a metaphor / hyperbole, etc.

Here we go-

Now, how does REVELATION start? -
John says it's to show what must SOON take place, or shortly come to pass
To WHOM is REVELATION addressed to? - It's a letter to The seven churches in Asia.
(Also remember that REVELATION was written Around 67 A.D. before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.)

OK, stop there for a minute. Make sure you understand what John's meaning & context is...

One other thing to remeber is, the Bible wasn't written to us (in the 21st Century) it was written TO the people, places, churches, etc in those times. The Bible WAS written for us however, & shows us God's love, promise, and redemptive plan for this world. :)

After realizing REVELATION was written TO the Seven Churches in 67 A.D. (approx) and was a warning of things that must SOON take place, I was able to get a more clear outlook.
John also describes himself as, their "fellow companion in tribulation".
So, These should be your first big clues.

I think by the time people get to REV 1:7 they're already confused, thinking it's about the 21st century. What happens from that moment on is, they misunderstand the context, as well as totally missing another key phrase. (I'll highlight)
REV 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Believe me, there's nobody still alive today who was there to "pierce" Jesus. This obviously is about the people alive around the time of the Crucifixion.

Another thing often missed or misunderstood is, "Coming on Clouds" or "Coming in Clouds" or "Coming with Clouds"....
This is a COMMON metaphoric phrase used all throughout the Bible to indicate certain, impending judgement. It's origin is in the Old Testament.
(Think back to the first time the world saw clouds, & how they represented judgement..... after Noah built the Ark & the rain came down.....)

I think people often feel this reference to seeing him "Come with Clouds" means "The Second Coming / Return of Jesus". (I admit, I DID for a while...)

OK,
I hope this gives you a good start in understanding how to interpret REVELATION as it was meant to be, instead of like a 21st Century Sci-Fi story.

I'll definitely be back to continue this, & to try answering any questions or comments you might have.

And YES, I will get to the Rapture, Beast / Antichrist, Mark of the Beast, "Millennial Reign", Rebuilt Temple (or actually, why there WON'T be a Rebuilt Temple) etc. But it's important you have the foundational understanding, and being able to interpret scripture, based on scripture.

That's all for now.
Hope you start to see REVELATION more clearly. Just remember, start at the beginning & pay attention to CONTEXT.

skypair
Feb 16th 2008, 11:52 AM
markdrums,

You struggled but now I would say you pretty much ruined it for yourself by consulting that website. :lol:

Rev 1:7 is reference to Zech 12:10 which comes in the far future re: John.

There is a time demarcation in Rev 1:19 -- write the things seen (what John just saw), things that are (Rev 2-3), and things that shall be (Rev 4-22).

I don't want to discourage you and I do want to welcome you here for your further investigation. But in the "scientific method," one starts just as you have with a "model" or "proposition." In testing that model, one soon finds contradictions and so one restructures the model and tests it again. Much of "systematic theology" was developed that way. So let's "have at it!"

skypair

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 12:10 PM
markdrums,

You struggled but now I would say you pretty much ruined it for yourself by consulting that website. :lol:

Rev 1:7 is reference to Zech 12:10 which comes in the far future re: John.

There is a time demarcation in Rev 1:19 -- write the things seen (what John just saw), things that are (Rev 2-3), and things that shall be (Rev 4-22).

I don't want to discourage you and I do want to welcome you here for your further investigation. It's easy to think you have it all worked out when studying prophecy and then find out there are some "blind alleys" that don't exactly match up with scripture. I know -- I've been at it awhile.

skypair


Well you're right, in a sense... They refer to each other and are connected, but Zechariah 12 is an OLD Testament prophecy, which makes IT a more far off, future fulfillment.
REVELATION However, was many years later, & referred to things that were AT HAND, & would SOON Take place. NOT, far off from John's time.

I agree that there are 3 distinct time frames in Revelation. Just as you mentioned.
But, The events from Chapter One through part of Chapter 20 are HISOTORICAL now. They've been fulfilled. The Beast, the mark, the Tribulation, .... That was Nero Caesar, & The Roman Empire in their persecution of the jews.

:cool:

EarlyCall
Feb 16th 2008, 12:22 PM
How do things end? Is there an end to things as we know it? If there is, what is that end, when does it come and how does it come about and what is it? What does it look like?

skypair
Feb 16th 2008, 12:32 PM
markdrums,

All I can say to that is you haven't tested that model enough to ascertain what you propose is true. Just for starters, there was no AoD circa 70 AD. There was no return of Christ in 70 AD -- and this last is why you are "hemming and hawing" about the clouds being misread by most biblicists and why you wonder about all this "literalism."

In fact, let me point out a danger that needs serious consideration as you go about your study. Beginning with Origen and continuing right on down to teh 1600's, the favorite way to interpret scripture was ALLEGORICALLY (vice literally). Do you know what this did? Well, first off, religionists "destroyed" any future for Israel. Then they substituted the church in all Israel's prophecies and promises. Then it came to the conclusion that Satan is bound and that they were living in the Millennial Kingdom of Christ ( no doubt you have come to this conclusions yourself).

NONE of these propositions is valid. Every one of them needs to be reconsidered in light of what we know now. And especially in light of what we know about Israel now.

skypair

Ltanner09
Feb 16th 2008, 01:01 PM
Markdrums wrote:

However, was many years later, & referred to things that were AT HAND, & would SOON Take place. NOT, far off from John's time.

Have to agree, for the most part.

Revelation 7 describes the 144,000 and they are called "firstfruits" in REV 14.
Futurists interpret these "firstfruits" to be a group some 2,000 years into the future from the time of John.
Of course they would then be "lastfruits", not firstfruits.

Seems fairly clear to me that the 144k are the first to come to Christ when the gospel went out to Israel (12k from each tribe) and after that it multiplies into a multitude that no one could number (7:9)

Jerusalem worked in concert with Rome to crucify Christ and I believe this is described in REV 17, with the whore riding the beast.
The beast eventually turns against the whore:

Re 17:16 and the ten horns that thou didst see upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her in fire,

Rome accomplished this in AD70.

vinsight4u8
Feb 16th 2008, 01:07 PM
The entire Revelation was given to John to show things - as in within that Revelation will occur some quickly events. Many things were given to watch for so as to recognize when the quickly parts will come.

such as - the third woe cometh quickly


Rev. 22:12
Rev. 11:18
reward time is when Jesus returns for the church; 7th trumpet

vinsight4u8
Feb 16th 2008, 01:08 PM
The whore city will be Tyre in Lebanon - see Isaiah 23:15.

This city is to be punished once a certain king gets done with his seventy years to rule the world.

Check out Jeremiah 25:11-13.
Daniel 9:1-2,24,27

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 01:58 PM
markdrums,

All I can say to that is you haven't tested that model enough to ascertain what you propose is true. Just for starters, there was no AoD circa 70 AD. There was no return of Christ in 70 AD -- and this last is why you are "hemming and hawing" about the clouds being misread by most biblicists and why you wonder about all this "literalism."

In fact, let me point out a danger that needs serious consideration as you go about your study. Beginning with Origen and continuing right on down to teh 1600's, the favorite way to interpret scripture was ALLEGORICALLY (vice literally). Do you know what this did? Well, first off, religionists "destroyed" any future for Israel. Then they substituted the church in all Israel's prophecies and promises. Then it came to the conclusion that Satan is bound and that they were living in the Millennial Kingdom of Christ ( no doubt you have come to this conclusions yourself).

NONE of these propositions is valid. Every one of them needs to be reconsidered in light of what we know now. And especially in light of what we know about Israel now.

skypair

Hang on there partner,
Where do you get Jesus saying he'll RETURN, (out of the statement "Coming on Clouds"?)

This is NOT the first time, nor is it the only time this phrase is used. Clouds are a metaphor for Judgement, and the Power & Glory of God. (You see this as far back as Deut.) A form of symbolism, to help get the bigger picture across.

There are definitely allegories in the Bible, but with discernment, you can tell when they occur, & when they're supposed to.

What you were trying to point out to me is the difference between Exegesis (getting from scripture what the real meaning is) & Eisegesis. (putting your own meaning into it)

To say Jesus is talking about his "RETURN" when he's on the mount, & talking to the Apostles is EISEGESIS.
I never said Christ would RETURN while they were still alive.... JESUS never said he's "RETURN" during their generation....
....I never implied Jesus "RETURNED" in AD 70.....

They Saw his Glory, power, & judgement "in the clouds" with the destruction of the Temple.

So, no hemming & hawing here.

**Can you explain why the "literal at all costs, whenever possible interpretation" of dispensationalists fails to see words like SOON, and AT HAND, and NEAR, and THIS GENERATION as literal???
They are the most obvious, straightforward examples of what should be taken "literally", but people want to change them to mean far away, & a long time, & a "far future generation".

Also, What DO we know about Israel now?

You can't read EVERYTHING in a stiff, strict, literal way. You have to know a metaphor is still a metaphor, even in the bible.

It's like when someone says, "It's raining cats & dogs!".
Do you assume that either, A: they're wrong because no cats or dogs are falling from the sky?
Or B: that they mean it's raining REALLY HARD?

So, again, I'll ask the question;
**Why isn't the aforementioned set of examples taken literally, if everything else is?

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 03:23 PM
Hang on there partner,
Where do you get Jesus saying he'll RETURN, (out of the statement "Coming on Clouds"?)

This is NOT the first time, nor is it the only time this phrase is used. Clouds are a metaphor for Judgement, and the Power & Glory of God. (You see this as far back as Deut.) A form of symbolism, to help get the bigger picture across.

There are definitely allegories in the Bible, but with discernment, you can tell when they occur, & when they're supposed to.

What you were trying to point out to me is the difference between Exegesis (getting from scripture what the real meaning is) & Eisegesis. (putting your own meaning into it)

To say Jesus is talking about his "RETURN" when he's on the mount, & talking to the Apostles is EISEGESIS.
I never said Christ would RETURN while they were still alive.... JESUS never said he's "RETURN" during their generation....
....I never implied Jesus "RETURNED" in AD 70.....

They Saw his Glory, power, & judgement "in the clouds" with the destruction of the Temple.

So, no hemming & hawing here.

**Can you explain why the "literal at all costs, whenever possible interpretation" of dispensationalists fails to see words like SOON, and AT HAND, and NEAR, and THIS GENERATION as literal???
They are the most obvious, straightforward examples of what should be taken "literally", but people want to change them to mean far away, & a long time, & a "far future generation".

Also, What DO we know about Israel now?

You can't read EVERYTHING in a stiff, strict, literal way. You have to know a metaphor is still a metaphor, even in the bible.

It's like when someone says, "It's raining cats & dogs!".
Do you assume that either, A: they're wrong because no cats or dogs are falling from the sky?
Or B: that they mean it's raining REALLY HARD?

So, again, I'll ask the question;
**Why isn't the aforementioned set of examples taken literally, if everything else is?

Jesus comes back only once, so wether he comes or returns there should be no confusion.

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mt 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Cor 15:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thess 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thess 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Where in the scripture does it say that Jesus "returns" ?

2 Thess 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 06:15 PM
Jesus comes back only once, so wether he comes or returns there should be no confusion.

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mt 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Cor 15:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thess 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thess 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Where in the scripture does it say that Jesus "returns" ?

2 Thess 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


Matthew 24- the context is not necessarily end of the WORLD / END OF TIME, but the end of The AGE. The Age being, the former sacrificial system, the old Mosaic laws & ceremonies.

Again, "coming" does not ALWAYS refer to "coming again" in the sense of his Second Coming. (or in essence his retun & gathering of his people).
The "coming on clouds with power & Glory" refers to Judgement.

You can't read single verses & understand what they mean on their own.
You have to read ENTIRE PASSAGES, & sometimes ENTIRE CHAPTERS, to know what the context is.

The mistake is, assumming that EVERY time "coming" is mentioned it means "Second Coming".

Also, to say there's a Pre-Trib Rapture, followed by tribulation, & then a literal 1000 year reign on Earth, only to be followed up with "THE battle" & then the final return, to establish the New Heaven & New Earth presents a couple problems....
That requires a THIRD & FOURTH Coming....
(First =Birth. Second ="Rapture". Third =1000 year reign. FOURTH= New Heaven & new Earth.)

Not only that, But with the dispensational view, You have "Raptured" people back on a STILL CURSED Earth, in their Glorified, resurrected bodies, living amongst "unsaved" people??
Also, why would animal sacrifices be necessary when we're in our Glorified, eternal bodies?
Some things don't make sense..... see what I mean?

When the day comes and we ARE Raptured, it'll be The LAST day / Judgement Day / Jesus establishes New Heaven & New Earth.

Firstfruits
Feb 16th 2008, 08:12 PM
Matthew 24- the context is not necessarily end of the WORLD / END OF TIME, but the end of The AGE. The Age being, the former sacrificial system, the old Mosaic laws & ceremonies.

Again, "coming" does not ALWAYS refer to "coming again" in the sense of his Second Coming. (or in essence his retun & gathering of his people).
The "coming on clouds with power & Glory" refers to Judgement.

You can't read single verses & understand what they mean on their own.
You have to read ENTIRE PASSAGES, & sometimes ENTIRE CHAPTERS, to know what the context is.

The mistake is, assumming that EVERY time "coming" is mentioned it means "Second Coming".

Also, to say there's a Pre-Trib Rapture, followed by tribulation, & then a literal 1000 year reign on Earth, only to be followed up with "THE battle" & then the final return, to establish the New Heaven & New Earth presents a couple problems....
That requires a THIRD & FOURTH Coming....
(First =Birth. Second ="Rapture". Third =1000 year reign. FOURTH= New Heaven & new Earth.)

Not only that, But with the dispensational view, You have "Raptured" people back on a STILL CURSED Earth, in their Glorified, resurrected bodies, living amongst "unsaved" people??
Also, why would animal sacrifices be necessary when we're in our Glorified, eternal bodies?
Some things don't make sense..... see what I mean?

When the day comes and we ARE Raptured, it'll be The LAST day / Judgement Day / Jesus establishes New Heaven & New Earth.

Jesus only comes back once, so when it says he comes at a particular point there can be no mistaking what it means, unless you believe he comes back more than once.

markdrums
Feb 16th 2008, 09:05 PM
Jesus only comes back once, so when it says he comes at a particular point there can be no mistaking what it means, unless you believe he comes back more than once.

Exactly,
He's already come once.. at his birth.
The next time he comes (to restore creation) is the LAST time he'll come.

But when he's speaking about "coming with power & Glory" in the clouds in The Olivet Discourse, & pertaining to The Apostles will see these fulfilled in Their Generation, he is not speaking of his "Second Coming".

That's why a pre-trib, pre-millennial rapture, & 1000 year earthly reign doesn't fit.

That would require more than ONE LAST "COMING" as in Returning.
No, I don't believe there are more than one to go.

;o)

jeffweeder
Feb 16th 2008, 10:38 PM
(Also remember that REVELATION was written Around 67 A.D. before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.)


If Rev was written in 67AD, ,then why isnt the Jerusalem Church addressed?
Seeing that its addressed to the gentile world (asia) suggests that it was written after 70 AD...as the whole church is now in Asia.

If every kindred see him coming, this seems to point to his second coming---and reminds me that the gospel must first be preached the whole world---every tongue and race...and then the end will come.
This couldnt apply to the 1st century as not all races had heard the gospel at that point.

skypair
Feb 17th 2008, 12:29 AM
**Can you explain why the "literal at all costs, whenever possible interpretation" of dispensationalists fails to see words like SOON, and AT HAND, and NEAR, and THIS GENERATION as literal??? First, the "rule" is "If the literal makes good sense, seek no other sense." Your accusations are misinformed.

Second, Christ was DEFINITELY offering His kingdom at the first advent. Of course the kingdom had come, was "at hand," etc. You know the 70 disciples? They went out under the PROTECTION of Jesus KINGDOM! Why do you think that the Pharisees couldn't take and stone Jesus "at will?" Same reason. His kingdom was "operative" then but not now!

But what happened to that kingdom? It was REJECTED and Jesus was crucified. It became a spiritual kingdom - not a phyical one!


You can't read EVERYTHING in a stiff, strict, literal way. You have to know a metaphor is still a metaphor, even in the bible. You're learning. :cool:


**Why isn't the aforementioned set of examples taken literally, if everything else is? Nero was dead when Jerusalem was razed. Domitian was on the throne and Titus was the one in charge of the "Jerusalem slaughter."

Please, mark, take off the mortar board and go back to class.

skypair

Saved7
Feb 17th 2008, 12:57 AM
Another thing often missed or misunderstood is, "Coming on Clouds" or "Coming in Clouds" or "Coming with Clouds"....
This is a COMMON metaphoric phrase used all throughout the Bible to indicate certain, impending judgement. It's origin is in the Old Testament.
(Think back to the first time the world saw clouds, & how they represented judgement..... after Noah built the Ark & the rain came down.....)

I think people often feel this reference to seeing him "Come with Clouds" means "The Second Coming / Return of Jesus". (I admit, I DID for a while...)



.


Then how do you propose we address this where the word specifically states that He was taken up into heaven and a cloud received him, and shortly thereafter they are told that He will return in LIKE MANNER???

Act 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=1&verse=9&version=kjv#9)¶And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.Act 1:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=1&verse=10&version=kjv#10)And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;Act 1:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=1&verse=11&version=kjv#11)Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Don't miss the part where it says THIS SAME Jesus, not Jesus, in the spiritual form, or Jesus will come again in another human body, being born all over again, but THIS SAME Jesus.

Firstfruits
Feb 17th 2008, 11:49 AM
Exactly,
He's already come once.. at his birth.
The next time he comes (to restore creation) is the LAST time he'll come.

But when he's speaking about "coming with power & Glory" in the clouds in The Olivet Discourse, & pertaining to The Apostles will see these fulfilled in Their Generation, he is not speaking of his "Second Coming".

That's why a pre-trib, pre-millennial rapture, & 1000 year earthly reign doesn't fit.

That would require more than ONE LAST "COMING" as in Returning.
No, I don't believe there are more than one to go.

;o)

Would you agree that the apostles that were with Jesus are now dead and that thier generation has passed?

Since all those things which Jesus prophesied did not happen in their lifetime/generation, and all those things are still not fulfilled today, he must have spoken of the generation that will be here at the time these prophecies are fulfilled. Would you agree?

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 07:39 PM
First, the "rule" is "If the literal makes good sense, seek no other sense." Your accusations are misinformed.

Second, Christ was DEFINITELY offering His kingdom at the first advent. Of course the kingdom had come, was "at hand," etc. You know the 70 disciples? They went out under the PROTECTION of Jesus KINGDOM! Why do you think that the Pharisees couldn't take and stone Jesus "at will?" Same reason. His kingdom was "operative" then but not now!

But what happened to that kingdom? It was REJECTED and Jesus was crucified. It became a spiritual kingdom - not a phyical one!

You're learning. :cool:

Nero was dead when Jerusalem was razed. Domitian was on the throne and Titus was the one in charge of the "Jerusalem slaughter."

Please, mark, take off the mortar board and go back to class.

skypair

Domitian ruled approx. around 90 AD... The Temple had already been destroyed by then.

If John wrote Revelation AFTER that, why was there no mention of it?
CERTAINLY he would have written about the Biggest Event of those days, that being the destruction of Jerusalem & the great temple.
Yet there's not a single word about this a major catastrophic event.

I understand the rule behind, "If the literal makes good sense, seek no other sense." However, you must be able to understand Apocalyptic language, & when a metaphor is a metaphor.
One (of several) problems with "If the literal makes good sense, seek no other sense." arises when specific scriptures, which ARE meant to be taken in a literal fashion, are ignored...

For instance, John says, These things must SOON take place.
Using the literal approach, one should understand SOON literally means SOON... NOT 2000 years later.
Recognizing SOON as SOON, makes perfect, LITERAL sense in this case. So why would you try to find any other meaning here?

John also says, he is their "Fellow companion in tribulation". Another indication that he is literally writing TO the seven Churches in Asia.

The Angel who gave John the vision said NOT to seal up the words of the prophecy, for the time is AT HAND. (indicating it would be SOON)

Daniel however, was told to seal up his prophecy, because the time was far off. (which turned out to be 600 years.)
-------------------
My question is;
If 600 years was considered "far off", & the prophecy was to be sealed up, Then why would 2000 years be considered soon?
And why was John told NOT to seal up his prophecy?

It doesn't take a whole lot of "Class time" to understand that 2000 years is quite a bit longer than 600 years.

So there!!!
*smarty pants!*
LOL!!!
;o)

Yes, I'm just razzing you in a friendly manner here.... :hug:

I do understand where you're coming from, but I'm trying to explain why I must disagree.

Because of literal context, & historical time-frames, I can't buy into "Revelation being written around 90 AD" .
Nor can I believe "Soon, At HAND, & Near", meaning anything but SOON.

John146
Feb 18th 2008, 09:21 PM
Matthew 24- the context is not necessarily end of the WORLD / END OF TIME, but the end of The AGE. The Age being, the former sacrificial system, the old Mosaic laws & ceremonies.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the end of the age (Greek: aion). Let's see how the phrase is used elsewhere in the book of Matthew. The following is from the KJV, so it's rendered as "the end of the world" but the more accurate meaning is "the end of the age".

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. - Matthew 13:24-30,37-43

What can we learn from this parable of the sower in regards to the end of the age? First, we see that believers and unbelievers are meant to be together in the world until the harvest. When does the harvest take place? At the end of the age. Did the harvest take place in 70 AD? No. What is portrayed above is clearly a depiction of the day of judgment when Christ returns and unbelievers stand before the throne and are found guilty and are sentenced to be cast into the lake of fire. In Matthew 13:42 it is called "a furnace of fire". Notice this is the time when the angels are sent to "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.". How can this be anything but a depiction of the day of the Lord when Christ returns to "judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom" (2 Tim 4:1)? Therefore, the end of the age will occur when Christ returns in the future.

Then there is another parable in Matthew 13:

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:47-50

Read this closely. This is a depiction of the resurrection of the dead when the wicked will be separated from the just. The just will be resurrected to everlasting life and the wicked will be resurrected to everlasting contempt and damnation (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29). This does not occur until the end of the age, as Jesus taught in this parable. This has not occurred yet. It will happen when Christ returns. Don't be like Hymenaeus and Philetus and try to claim that the resurrection has already taken place (Tim 2:16-18).

Here is another passage concerning the end of the age:

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. - Matthew 28:19-20

Was Jesus saying here that He would only be with His people only until 70 AD? Of course not. He was saying He would be with His people always spiritually, even until the end of the age when He returns bodily.

Eric

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 09:21 PM
Revelation was not just written for the 7 churches. It was written to warn all churches that would ever exist throughout history. God intended it to be a warning to all, not just the churches the letters were addressed to.



The bible is a book written by God Himself through various scribes. The bible, as such is written mostly in parabolic language. Remember that Christ spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. So we must always look for the spiritual meaning hidden in the verses. Even in verses that seem straight forward otherwise we cannot hope to understand fully most of the bible.


I understand what you're saying.
Revelation (along with the entire Bible) was written FOR everyone, including "US"... although it was not written directly TO "us". Correct.

There are many things in the scriptures that are just as relevant TODAY, as they were WHEN they were originally written.
But, that doesn't mean EVERYHTING directly pertains to us. (especially concerning prophecies intended to convey a "near future fulfillment" at the time.)

The other thing is, Jesus did speak through many parables, but not everything was a parable.
For instance, Warning the disciples, of the near future Judgement that would be poured upon Jerusalem, & the temple; as well as his crucifixion & his Vindication. He was straightforward with his message:
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
There should be no confusion in the fact that Jesus was speaking directly to them, & meant THEY THEMSELVES would see these things.

So it's important to understand what is a parable, what is a metaphor, & what IS literal.

Thank for your post Mikey!!

markdrums
Feb 18th 2008, 09:42 PM
I don't agree with this interpretation of the end of the age (Greek: aion). Let's see how the phrase is used elsewhere in the book of Matthew. The following is from the KJV, so it's rendered as "the end of the world" but the more accurate meaning is "the end of the age".

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. - Matthew 13:24-30,37-43

What can we learn from this parable of the sower in regards to the end of the age? First, we see that believers and unbelievers are meant to be together in the world until the harvest. When does the harvest take place? At the end of the age. Did the harvest take place in 70 AD? No. What is portrayed above is clearly a depiction of the day of judgment when Christ returns and unbelievers stand before the throne and are found guilty and are sentenced to be cast into the lake of fire. In verse Matthew 13:42 it is called "a furnace of fire". Notice this is the time when the angels are sent to "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.". How can this be anything but a depiction of the day of the Lord when Christ returns to "judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom" (2 Tim 4:1)? Therefore, the end of the age will occur when Christ returns in the future.

Then there is another parable in Matthew 13:

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:47-50

Read this closely. This is a depiction of the resurrection of the dead when the wicked will be separated from the just. The just will be resurrected to everlasting life and the wicked will be resurrected to everlasting contempt and damnation (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29). This does not occur until the end of the age, as Jesus taught in this parable. This has not occurred yet. It will happen when Christ returns. Don't be like Hymenaeus and Philetus and try to claim that the resurrection has already taken place (Tim 2:16-18).

Here is another passage concerning the end of the age:

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. - Matthew 28:19-20

Was Jesus saying here that He would only be with His people only until 70 AD? Of course not. He was saying He would be with His people always spiritually, even until the end of the age when He returns bodily.

Eric

One quick note concerning the "Wheats & tares":
Special examination of the text tells us this;

(In the TIME OF) the "Harvest" (which is the "Last Day") would be the "Rapture".
BUT... notice Jesus says to Gather up the tares FIRST, leaving the wheat to be collected to the barn. The angels will gather out of his Kingdom, those things which offend & do iniquity to be cast in the fire to burn.

This means the exact OPPOSITE of a Secret Rapture of the church.
The first to be taken will be the UNRIGHTEOUS. NOT the other way around.

Concerning the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was talking about the Temple & the surrounding buildings, that would be destroyed. This would bring an end to the sacrificial age.
That's the context of the message.

The "Harvest / Final Resurrection" did not take place in 70 AD. I agree.
But the "Harvest" is a different event than the end of the Old Testsment laws / Covenant, & the destruction of the temple.

Here's a search result of the Strong's Concordance for "End Of The World":
Result of search for "end of the world":
165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).

The most frequent meaning is "Age- such as a messianic period".

John146
Feb 18th 2008, 09:57 PM
One quick note concerning the "Wheats & tares":
Special examination of the text tells us this;

(In the TIME OF) the "Harvest" (which is the "Last Day") would be the "Rapture".
BUT... notice Jesus says to Gather up the tares FIRST, leaving the wheat to be collected to the barn. The angels will gather out of his Kingdom, those things which offend & do iniquity to be cast in the fire to burn.

This means the exact OPPOSITE of a Secret Rapture of the church.
The first to be taken will be the UNRIGHTEOUS. NOT the other way around.

Where did I say anything about a "Secret Rapture of the church"? Read my post again and try to respond without any preconceived ideas of what I believe. What you should note is that both believers and unbelievers are gathered at the same general time, which we know is the case from passages like John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46. That is my point. Those parables speak of the future resurrection of the dead which happens at Christ's future return at the end of the age.



Concerning the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was talking about the Temple & the surrounding buildings, that would be destroyed. This would bring an end to the sacrificial age.
That's the context of the message.No, that's the context of part of the message. That is the answer to the question "when shall these things be?". But that wasn't the only question. He was also asked about the sign of His coming and the end of the age.



The "Harvest / Final Resurrection" did not take place in 70 AD. I agree.
But the "Harvest" is a different event than the end of the Old Testsment laws / Covenant, & the destruction of the temple.Yes, that is true, which should tell you that Jesus spoke of BOTH the destruction of the temple as well as the sign of His coming and the end of the age. The end of the age did not occur when the temple was destroyed. That is what I believe you are missing here. Jesus spoke of two different time periods: He spoke of what would occur in and around 70 AD as well as what would happen after that up to His return at the end of the age.

Here's a search result of the Strong's Concordance for "End Of The World":
Result of search for "end of the world":
165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).

The most frequent meaning is "Age- such as a messianic period".Yes, I agree. And Jesus spoke frequently of this age and the age to come. But He was not speaking in terms of an Old Testament age and a New Testament age. He spoke in terms of a temporal age which we are still living in now and the eternal age to come. This is best illustrated in the following passage ("world" = "aion"):

34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. - Luke 20:34-36


Eric

Clifton
Feb 18th 2008, 10:24 PM
For instance, Warning the disciples, of the near future Judgement that would be poured upon Jerusalem, & the temple; as well as his crucifixion & his Vindication. He was straightforward with his message:
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
There should be no confusion in the fact that Jesus was speaking directly to them, & meant THEY THEMSELVES would see these things.

You comment on this verse is as if it were a "coming" that is in the "future tense" verbal form, thus, rendering the passage, in a manner like, "...till they see the Son of man WHEN HE COMES in his kingdom":confused That is what it would ring if the Koine Greek were written in the way you have formed this verse.

FTR, "coming" here is ερχομενον, not παρασια, secondly, ερχομενον is not a future tense form of the word, that would take the "ελευσ-" form.

I've been acquainted with Koine Greek for years, nonetheless, in this case, it is not required. Let yourself see what the Tense is. It has been available in Bible Software packages for years (at least over a dozen years that I know of). If you have such software, turn on the Strong's Numbering for the translation (usually KJV or RWebster-KJV) and to the right of "coming <2064>" click on the "(5740)" and see what the TENSE is.

Or, if you do not have this, use one online:

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Matthew&chapter=16&verse=28

There, you can click in the (5740) and see the tense.

Verily <281 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=281)> I say <3004 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3004)> (5719 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5719)) unto you <5213 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5213)>, There be <1526 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1526)> (5748 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5748)) some <5100 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5100)> standing <2476 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2476)> (5761 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5761)) here <5602 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5602)>, which <3748 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3748)> shall <1089 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1089)> (0 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=0)) not <3364 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3364)> taste <1089 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1089)> (5667 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5667)) of death <2288 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2288)>, till <302 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=302)> <2193 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2193)> they see <1492 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1492)> (5632 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5632)) the Son <5207 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5207)> of man <444 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=444)> coming <2064 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2064)> (5740 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5740)) in <1722 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1722)> his <846 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=846)> kingdom <932 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=932)>.

Ya see, it is in the PRESENT TENSE, not the FUTURE TENSE;). In fact, one of the parallels is in the PERFECT TENSE, more appropiately so, since the "kingdom had come" and was present with them and is having a continuous effect - when something is at hand, it is up to the person to respond to it, and perceive (or, "see") it.

Are you getting this stuff from a biography or movie? I would see those as fictional - they are not aligning up with the 3 primary used Greek Textforms, TR, MT (or BM), or CT - I can tell this from your post and previous ones. BUT, don't get me wrong, I like such movies and biographies myself - The Seventh Sign was my fave.:)

Rarely does any of the Greek words linked to Strong's # 2064 relate to παρασια <3952 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3952)>, and if you were acquainted with Greek, you'd know that word is a "continuous" state with a final stage.;)

If you have no such Bible Software, a good free Bible Software (that will give you the same view as the scripture quoted with embedded Strong's as above:

http://www.onlinebible.net/index.html

Later.

markdrums
Feb 19th 2008, 12:05 AM
You comment on this verse is as if it were a "coming" that is in the "future tense" verbal form, thus, rendering the passage, in a manner like, "...till they see the Son of man WHEN HE COMES in his kingdom":confused That is what it would ring if the Koine Greek were written in the way you have formed this verse.

FTR, "coming" here is ερχομενον, not παρασια, secondly, ερχομενον is not a future tense form of the word, that would take the "ελευσ-" form.

I've been acquainted with Koine Greek for years, nonetheless, in this case, it is not required. Let yourself see what the Tense is. It has been available in Bible Software packages for years (at least over a dozen years that I know of). If you have such software, turn on the Strong's Numbering for the translation (usually KJV or RWebster-KJV) and to the right of "coming <2064>" click on the "(5740)" and see what the TENSE is.

Or, if you do not have this, use one online:

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Matthew&chapter=16&verse=28

There, you can click in the (5740) and see the tense.

Verily <281 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=281)> I say <3004 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3004)> (5719 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5719)) unto you <5213 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5213)>, There be <1526 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1526)> (5748 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5748)) some <5100 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5100)> standing <2476 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2476)> (5761 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5761)) here <5602 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5602)>, which <3748 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3748)> shall <1089 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1089)> (0 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=0)) not <3364 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3364)> taste <1089 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1089)> (5667 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5667)) of death <2288 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2288)>, till <302 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=302)> <2193 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2193)> they see <1492 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1492)> (5632 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5632)) the Son <5207 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5207)> of man <444 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=444)> coming <2064 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2064)> (5740 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5740)) in <1722 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1722)> his <846 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=846)> kingdom <932 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=932)>.

Ya see, it is in the PRESENT TENSE, not the FUTURE TENSE;). In fact, one of the parallels is in the PERFECT TENSE, more appropiately so, since the "kingdom had come" and was present with them and is having a continuous effect - when something is at hand, it is up to the person to respond to it, and perceive (or, "see") it.

Are you getting this stuff from a biography or movie? I would see those as fictional - they are not aligning up with the 3 primary used Greek Textforms, TR, MT (or BM), or CT - I can tell this from your post and previous ones. BUT, don't get me wrong, I like such movies and biographies myself - The Seventh Sign was my fave.:)

Rarely does any of the Greek words linked to Strong's # 2064 relate to παρασια <3952 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3952)>, and if you were acquainted with Greek, you'd know that word is a "continuous" state with a final stage.;)

If you have no such Bible Software, a good free Bible Software (that will give you the same view as the scripture quoted with embedded Strong's as above:

http://www.onlinebible.net/index.html

Later.


You know, I see what you're saying, & your right... :)
Good point about the Kingdom being "present tense". That's true.

That also validates Jesus' prophetic statements that his DISIPLES would see these things, & they indeed were fulfilled in Their Generation.
Otherwise, had they NOT, & the prophecies went unfulfilled after he said some of them "standing there would not taste death before they were fulfilled", Jesus would have been wrong, or a liar.

I appreciate your input!!
I'm just beginning my learning, with the original Greek & Hebrew words and their meanings. This was definitely helpful!!

Partaker of Christ
Feb 19th 2008, 12:21 AM
Here we go-

Now, how does REVELATION start? -
John says it's to show what must SOON take place, or shortly come to pass
To WHOM is REVELATION addressed to? - It's a letter to The seven churches in Asia.
(Also remember that REVELATION was written Around 67 A.D. before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.)

OK, stop there for a minute. Make sure you understand what John's meaning & context is...



Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Antipas was martyred in ca. 92 AD by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar used for casting out demons worshiped by the local population.

Antipas was a contemporary of the Apostles, by whom he was made Bishop of Pergamom. He contested during the reign of Domitian, when he was cast, as it is said, into a bronze bull that had been heated exceedingly.

Clifton
Feb 19th 2008, 12:42 AM
I don't agree with this interpretation of the end of the age (Greek: aion). Let's see how the phrase is used elsewhere in the book of Matthew. The following is from the KJV, so it's rendered as "the end of the world" but the more accurate meaning is "the end of the age".

It could be that the KJV Translators translated off the Latin in the places you are referring to, instead of the Greek. IOW, a translation of a translation in those spots. I'm not sure about "aion" <165 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=165)>, but the following word in the Greek Dictionary, "aiwnios" <166 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=165)>, well, that they did translate (at least in a few places) from the Latin - the Latin aeternus instead of the Greek aiwnios - The smirk remark to that is "Dualism of Eternal life." - this is why the word eternal has been misunderstood by the English reader. If they would have gone to the Greek they for sure would have translated it as many translators such as Rotherham and Young, namely, age lasting or life for the age. - S. S. Craig 1916.


Here is another passage concerning the end of the age:

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. - Matthew 28:19-20Had been so "immersed" (aka "baptized") with that passage:D that the part you have emphasized has slipped by me lately.

Literally, it says "I am with you all the days until the completion/conclusion of the age." ... αιωνος; "Age, referring to an age or time in contrast to "kosmos" <2889 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2889)>, referring to people or space. Denotes duration or continuance of time, but with great variety." Of course, the dictionary goes a page longer on this word, about what it means in places, etc. etc.

On the Book Of Revelation, it used various sources of its time and millenniums before its time and on up to the mid 90's for conveying its message and visions... sorta of like, if one of us was to use the holocaust, the atom bomb incidents of our time, to convey something in the future. So, its texts is of things past, present, and future at the time of the construction of it (1st Century). As for the sources used, you can access that part of R.H. Charles 25 year work on Revelation at:

http://www.dabar.org/RHCharles/Revelation/intro-%20VI.htm

There are two web pages here for the sources. After the above Web page is looked at, Click the NEXT button in the upper right corner to see the second page.;) The letters to the 7 congregations were quite straight forward and penned by the Seer (aka John the Presbyter).

markdrums
Feb 19th 2008, 01:01 AM
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Antipas was martyred in ca. 92 AD by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar used for casting out demons worshiped by the local population.

Antipas was a contemporary of the Apostles, by whom he was made Bishop of Pergamom. He contested during the reign of Domitian, when he was cast, as it is said, into a bronze bull that had been heated exceedingly.


Actually, everything I find on Antipas gives the following info:


(This from Encyclopedia Britanica)
Herod Antipas-
Ruler of Galilee
born 21 BC died AD 39

I'm not sure where you got 92 AD from....?

Partaker of Christ
Feb 19th 2008, 01:53 AM
Actually, everything I find on Antipas gives the following info:


(This from Encyclopedia Britanica)
Herod Antipas-
Ruler of Galilee
born 21 BC died AD 39

I'm not sure where you got 92 AD from....?

That is Herod Antipas, not the same person

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum

or

http://latter-rain.com/escha/antipas.htm

Clifton
Feb 19th 2008, 01:58 AM
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Antipas was martyred in ca. 92 AD by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar used for casting out demons worshiped by the local population.

Antipas was a contemporary of the Apostles, by whom he was made Bishop of Pergamom.

Is not "Pergamos" the correct rendering?;)


He contested during the reign of Domitian, when he was cast, as it is said, into a bronze bull that had been heated exceedingly.It was Red-hot:(

Correct me if I err, but didn't Antipas <493 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=493)> make the Governor angry in an argument about which religion was older (thus more "honorable" by the Governor), i.e. and Antipas countered that argument using Cain's story as "proof"? (not sure I follow this).

"On April 11 the memory of holy hieromartyr Antipas, Bishop of Pergamos is still celebrated by the Orthodox Churches around the world." -Dr.M.M.Ninan

Now there is something the user Teke here might have some input on.

Clifton
Feb 19th 2008, 02:03 AM
That is Herod Antipas, not the same person

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum

or

http://latter-rain.com/escha/antipas.htm


The faithful "pray" to the saint????

...for ailments of the teeth?

I wear of the full set of dentures.:rolleyes:

Clifton
Feb 19th 2008, 02:55 AM
Is not "Pergamos" the correct rendering?;)

I see now that Pergamom is the modern reading today. The lexicon for Antipas says "Pergamos" (no doubt the primary Koine Greek Rendering back then). R.H. Charles' work refers to Antipas as "Pergamum's proto-martyr".

Teke
Feb 20th 2008, 07:54 PM
Is not "Pergamos" the correct rendering?;)

"The name Pergamum is the Latinized form of the Greek Pergamos, which was sometimes written Pergamon. The city is located sixty miles north of Smyrna (Izmir); and fifteen miles from the sea, between two tributaries of the Caicus River, the Selinus and the Cetius, the former flowing through the city and the latter around it.

The modern Turkish town of Bergama is built among the ruins of the ancient metropolis. Bergama has fifteen mosques, one of which is the early Byzantine church of St. Sophia.

The name “Pergamum” has been perpetuated in the word “parchment” (Latin pergamena, Greek pergamene and charta), since the city developed the use of the material for writing. "

General information from here (http://www.christianleadershipcenter.org/bibarch19.htm)



Correct me if I err, but didn't Antipas <493 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=493)> make the Governor angry in an argument about which religion was older (thus more "honorable" by the Governor), i.e. and Antipas countered that argument using Cain's story as "proof"? (not sure I follow this).

"On April 11 the memory of holy hieromartyr Antipas, Bishop of Pergamos is still celebrated by the Orthodox Churches around the world." -Dr.M.M.Ninan

Now there is something the user Teke here might have some input on.

St Antipas like St Polycarp would not submit to emperor worship. The reason being that the church is not nationalistic, the church worships God not nations or rulers. So especially a clergyman like Bishop Antipas (appointed by the Apostles) isn't going to submit to such a thing.

This place is noted as a stronghold in Orthodox Christian history. The eastern churches would not align themselves with Rome's patriarchate alone (there are five patriarchates), nor meet their terms of belief. The Muslims took it over as the Roman church would not help with defense against the Turkish Muslims, unless the eastern Christians submitted to them as their sole authority of the Church. A do or die situation.

And so, one of Christianity's most beautiful churches, St Sophia of the Byzantine era, was taken by the Muslim invaders who converted it into a mosque, as they've done with many Christian churches in the east.

Clifton
Feb 20th 2008, 08:53 PM
You know, I see what you're saying, & your right... J
Good point about the Kingdom being "present tense". That's true.

The “present tense” refers to the verb underlying the word “coming” in your English Bible(s) for Matthew 16:28 (Matthew 12:13 (http://read.updated.org/bible/Mt/12/) for the UPDV Bible (http://www.updated.org/)). ;) It (the “coming” here) had already started by that time and was having a “continuing” effect. The Greek words tied to Strong’s # 2064 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2064) are quite tricky for English understanding. Mostly, there are 2 forms of English words used, “come” & “go” (but those words are also used for other Greek Forms as well). While we are here, let’s not forget the parallels to Matthew 16:28:

And he said to them, Truly I say to you+, There are some here of those who stand, who will in no way taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God come with power.
Mark 9:1 UPDV (http://read.updated.org/bible/Mr/9/)

But I tell you+ of a truth, There are some of those who stand here, who will in no way taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God.
Luke 9:27 UPDV (http://read.updated.org/bible/Lu/9/)

In Mark 9:1, the word “come” here is in the PERFECT TENSE, which means that it had already occurred, but IS having a continuous (or, “repetitive") effect, either for all eternity or during the stage of this current Earth, like the verbal statement of Christ’s words on the Cross, “IT IS FINISHED!”. Luke was the more informative one, investigating things through witnesses, and provides us things not present in the other Gospels.


That also validates Jesus' prophetic statements that his DISIPLES would see these things, & they indeed were fulfilled in Their Generation. Otherwise, had they NOT, & the prophecies went unfulfilled after he said some of them "standing there would not taste death before they were fulfilled", Jesus would have been wrong, or a liar. Not sure I follow you here. They were OT prophecies. Of course, perhaps John 1:51 (Minimal Context John 1:45-51), may have had some bearing:

Joh 1:51 And He said to him (Nathanael), "Most assuredly I say to you, from now on you shall see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."

Also, the disciples DID see those things before Christ was crucified, and the “prophecy” as you referred to it, was being “fulfilled” during the ministry of Christ. As to the issue of “some standing here”, it was up to them to receive and perceive it, and / or, would refer to the event(s) while Christ was visiting a territory, which He was presently staying at, or, in the least, the week - I would suggest that anything more than a month away or another location would be rendered in the Future Tense – definitely “the Future Tense” if it was “beyond” his physical time in the flesh on Earth –

FTR, one cannot “automatically” assume that “coming”, “advent”, etc. always means His Last Coming / Advent, or the final stage of the Parousia (which in the mainstream is referred to as “second coming”), and the single verse references referred to here within have no full bearing on that. Christ is “always” coming / present… in times of joy, distress, etc., and the list goes on... Maybe even to embrace you as you pull out all that mail out of your mailbox and find they are all bills to pay, and that list too also goes on and on ;)

But as far as Matthew 16:28 (Matthew 12:13 (http://read.updated.org/bible/Mt/12/) for UPDV (http://www.updated.org/)), Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27 goes, in the expressions of the Bible Translators, a “fulfillment”, or “precursor” (not sure which word they use at this moment), was accomplished in the “follow-up verses to” the single verses referred to here within. Those are valid adductions in the case of the tenses presented in the tenses, and bear in mind, that scribes did not write out chapter and verse numbers in their MSS. ;)


I appreciate your input!!
I'm just beginning my learning, with the original Greek & Hebrew words and their meanings. This was definitely helpful!! Anytime ;). I started with the Hebrew about 27 years ago and later on the Greek. It’ll take time, but just stick with it, and sometime down the road, you’re going to feel you have entered a different World, which you will come to dearly love and cherish.:)

Later.

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 11:53 AM
Exactly,
He's already come once.. at his birth.
The next time he comes (to restore creation) is the LAST time he'll come.

But when he's speaking about "coming with power & Glory" in the clouds in The Olivet Discourse, & pertaining to The Apostles will see these fulfilled in Their Generation, he is not speaking of his "Second Coming".

That's why a pre-trib, pre-millennial rapture, & 1000 year earthly reign doesn't fit.

That would require more than ONE LAST "COMING" as in Returning.
No, I don't believe there are more than one to go.

;o)

Would you agree that the apostles that were with Jesus are now dead and that thier generation has passed?

Since all those things which Jesus prophesied did not happen in their lifetime/generation, and all those things are still not fulfilled today, he must have spoken of the generation that will be here at the time these prophecies are fulfilled. Would you agree?

Teke
Feb 21st 2008, 03:51 PM
Was reading through the thread. :)

The best tip I can give anyone wanting to understand Revelation or all of scripture for that matter, is keep in mind that salvation is the means and right worship is the end. Revelation is the revealing of heavenly worship, both on earth and in heaven.
Those with some liturgical understanding will understand Revelation best. As Revelation includes liturgical aspects of Israel's worship.

markdrums
Feb 21st 2008, 04:17 PM
Would you agree that the apostles that were with Jesus are now dead and that thier generation has passed?

Since all those things which Jesus prophesied did not happen in their lifetime/generation, and all those things are still not fulfilled today, he must have spoken of the generation that will be here at the time these prophecies are fulfilled. Would you agree?

I understand what you're saying here...
Let me see if I can explain the issue at hand....

The point I'M making is, Jesus said "these things" would happen in their lifetime / generation.
Now, the question is: What were "THESE THINGS" he was talking about?
I'm sure whatever it was, DID happen.

We have different ideas of what they were, which causes the debate.
I agree there are STILL prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.
I don't subscribe to the "Full Preterist" belief that EVERYTHING has ALREADY been fulfilled.

Has he "returned" in the sense of final fulfillment? No.
THAT part we both agree on. :)

But I believe what he said would happen in "Their Generation" was something different than coming back to dwell amongst us. (as in his a'second coming")
I see it as coming back to Vindicate his deity, & revealing his power as the TRUE KING, and fulfilling the destruction of the temple, putting a final end to the old sacrificial system.

He is with us in spirit now, and one day we'll be with him PHYSICALLY too! :spin:

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 04:35 PM
I understand what you're saying here...
Let me see if I can explain the issue at hand....

The point I'M making is, Jesus said "these things" would happen in their lifetime / generation.
Now, the question is: What were "THESE THINGS" he was talking about?
I'm sure whatever it was, DID happen.

We have different ideas of what they were, which causes the debate.
I agree there are STILL prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.
I don't subscribe to the "Full Preterist" belief that EVERYTHING has ALREADY been fulfilled.

Has he "returned" in the sense of final fulfillment? No.
THAT part we both agree on. :)

But I believe what he said would happen in "Their Generation" was something different than coming back to dwell amongst us. (as in his a'second coming")
I see it as coming back to Vindicate his deity, & revealing his power as the TRUE KING, and fulfilling the destruction of the temple, putting a final end to the old sacrificial system.

He is with us in spirit now, and one day we'll be with him PHYSICALLY too! :spin:


Well let us have a look at what he answered them.

King James Version Matthew 24

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Can you truly say that all these things were fulfilled in their generation, and that they shall not be repeated in the future?

Remember the beast and the false prophet are here when Jesus comes back.

Teke
Feb 21st 2008, 07:31 PM
Well let us have a look at what he answered them.

King James Version Matthew 24

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

This is a prediction of the destruction of the temple in AD 70, which sets the tone for Jesus' discourse on the end of the age (chps. 24,25). The NT describes the end time in a variety of ways, so that no precise chronology can be determined (see Mark 13, Luke 21, 1 Cor. 15:51-55, 1 Thess. 4:13-17, 2 Thess. 2:1-10 and book of Revelation). Jesus' emphasis is on being prepared through watchfulness and stewardship rather than on construction exacting chronologies. In this chapter the end is described as a process with three overlapping stages: 1) the beginning of sorrows (v4-14), 2) the great tribulation (v15-28) and 3) the coming of the Son of Man (v29-31).


3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The question about the signs and the persecutions is connected in Matthew with the sign of His coming and the end of the age.The disciples dream of the hoped for earthly kingdom, which they expect to appear almost immediately. Jesus knows their anticipation and sets out to prepare them for what is to come. He warns them to "take heed" (v4) not to 1) be seduced by any deception (v5) 2) be overpowered by the violence of afflictions which will come (v 6-9); or 3)stumble because of false brethren (v 10-12).

Jesus and the disciples are sitting on the Mt of Olives looking out over Jerusalem (v1). The immediate reference here is not to the "wars" of the world over the centuries, but to wars in Jerusalem.

All these calamities and tribulations will not prevent the progress of the gospel, the good news "will be preached" everywhere (Rom. 10:18, Col. 1;6,23)


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Daniels prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" was fulfilled in AD 70, when the Roman general Titus, before ordering the temple burned, entered the Most Holy Place, thus defiling the temple. Jesus quotes this prophecy so that the disciples might know these things will happen while most of them are still alive. "Whoever reads, let him understand" are code words from the author to early Christians about the known meaning of what is written.

Christians do not understand how this can be. One need only to refer to the OT to find out the matter. The ashes of the red heifer were used to purify the temple mount, temple and all who entered therein. Especially the Holy of Holies/Most Holy Place. Thus when Titus entered he defiled the whole place with his impure presence there. Nothing impure had entered there before.



27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Now consider the words of this verse. How will Christ come back? What is the manner of lightning, it flashes in the blink of an eye and illuminates the darkness briefly. The event will be unmistakably visible to all.
The great day of the Lord will be the true Light, the "rising" (Is. 60:1,3: Mal. 4:2, Luke 1:78, 2 Pet. 1:19). The very creation will be transfigured - not destroyed but superseded - by the light of His presence at the end of the age. I call it "transfiguration by grace" (recall the Lords transfiguration).

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 07:50 PM
This is a prediction of the destruction of the temple in AD 70, which sets the tone for Jesus' discourse on the end of the age (chps. 24,25). The NT describes the end time in a variety of ways, so that no precise chronology can be determined (see Mark 13, Luke 21, 1 Cor. 15:51-55, 1 Thess. 4:13-17, 2 Thess. 2:1-10 and book of Revelation). Jesus' emphasis is on being prepared through watchfulness and stewardship rather than on construction exacting chronologies. In this chapter the end is described as a process with three overlapping stages: 1) the beginning of sorrows (v4-14), 2) the great tribulation (v15-28) and 3) the coming of the Son of Man (v29-31).


The question about the signs and the persecutions is connected in Matthew with the sign of His coming and the end of the age.The disciples dream of the hoped for earthly kingdom, which they expect to appear almost immediately. Jesus knows their anticipation and sets out to prepare them for what is to come. He warns them to "take heed" (v4) not to 1) be seduced by any deception (v5) 2) be overpowered by the violence of afflictions which will come (v 6-9); or 3)stumble because of false brethren (v 10-12).

Jesus and the disciples are sitting on the Mt of Olives looking out over Jerusalem (v1). The immediate reference here is not to the "wars" of the world over the centuries, but to wars in Jerusalem.

All these calamities and tribulations will not prevent the progress of the gospel, the good news "will be preached" everywhere (Rom. 10:18, Col. 1;6,23)


Daniels prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" was fulfilled in AD 70, when the Roman general Titus, before ordering the temple burned, entered the Most Holy Place, thus defiling the temple. Jesus quotes this prophecy so that the disciples might know these things will happen while most of them are still alive. "Whoever reads, let him understand" are code words from the author to early Christians about the known meaning of what is written.

Christians do not understand how this can be. One need only to refer to the OT to find out the matter. The ashes of the red heifer were used to purify the temple mount, temple and all who entered therein. Especially the Holy of Holies/Most Holy Place. Thus when Titus entered he defiled the whole place with his impure presence there. Nothing impure had entered there before.



Now consider the words of this verse. How will Christ come back? What is the manner of lightning, it flashes in the blink of an eye and illuminates the darkness briefly. The event will be unmistakably visible to all.
The great day of the Lord will be the true Light, the "rising" (Is. 60:1,3: Mal. 4:2, Luke 1:78, 2 Pet. 1:19). The very creation will be transfigured - not destroyed but superseded - by the light of His presence at the end of the age. I call it "transfiguration by grace" (recall the Lords transfiguration).

Are you saying that some events are for future generations, knowing that the day of the Lord has not come?

Remember also that there will be the beast and the false prophet here at Christs return, when they will be cast into the lake of fire, again, this has not yet happened so false Christs and false prophets still apply until he returns to destroy them.

God will pour out his wrath/tribulation upon the knigdom of the beast,and uopn the whole world,again this has not yet happened.

Saints will be martryred during the reign of the beast/antichrist just as Christ said will happen, and yet that which is to come is not their generation.

Teke
Feb 21st 2008, 08:17 PM
Are you saying that some events are for future generations, knowing that the day of the Lord has not come?

Saints in the world will always face tribulation.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.



Remember also that there will be the beast and the false prophet here at Christs return, when they will be cast into the lake of fire, again, this has not yet happened so false Christs and false prophets still apply until he returns to destroy them.

The beast is political, the false prophet is the one who aligns himself with such. ie. nationalist
The Church/Body of Christ, is not nationalist.


God will pour out his wrath/tribulation upon the knigdom of the beast,and uopn the whole world,again this has not yet happened.

Well it depends on what Christians you talk to. The Russian Orthodox believed that communism was/is antichrist. More Christians died than in the holocaust.
Their beast was communism, and their patriarchate aligned itself with this political structure. To date this isn't over within Orthodox Christianity in Russia. Many believe the present ruler is gradually bringing it back. Which is why Russian Orthodox Christians in America believe to be still persecuted in Russia.


Saints will be martryred during the reign of the beast/antichrist just as Christ said will happen, and yet that which is to come is not their generation.

This will continually happen to prove the righteous. Tribulation is as being tried by fire. You will either be consumed or walk out victorious as Christ.
It is your lot in being "in" the world, but not "of" the world.:)

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 08:27 PM
Saints in the world will always face tribulation.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.



The beast is political, the false prophet is the one who aligns himself with such. ie. nationalist
The Church/Body of Christ, is not nationalist.


Well it depends on what Christians you talk to. The Russian Orthodox believed that communism was/is antichrist. More Christians died than in the holocaust.
Their beast was communism, and their patriarchate aligned itself with this political structure. To date this isn't over within Orthodox Christianity in Russia. Many believe the present ruler is gradually bringing it back. Which is why Russian Orthodox Christians in America believe to be still persecuted in Russia.


This will continually happen to prove the righteous. Tribulation is as being tried by fire. You will either be consumed or walk out victorious as Christ.
It is your lot in being "in" the world, but not "of" the world.:)

So what Christ said still applies today, and the beast and the false prophet that will be here when Jesus returns still applies according to Matthew 24?

Teke
Feb 21st 2008, 08:36 PM
So what Christ said still applies today,

That we will continue to be in tribulation, yes.



and the beast and the false prophet that will be here when Jesus returns still applies according to Matthew 24?

Yes, there is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc. 1:9)
Outside the church, the world continues the same.

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 08:50 PM
That we will continue to be in tribulation, yes.



Yes, there is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc. 1:9)
Outside the church, the world continues the same.

Therefore what Jesus said In Matthew 24 was not only for their generation?

Clifton
Feb 21st 2008, 09:05 PM
"The name Pergamum is the Latinized form of the Greek Pergamos, which was sometimes written Pergamon. The city is located sixty miles north of Smyrna (Izmir); and fifteen miles from the sea, between two tributaries of the Caicus River, the Selinus and the Cetius, the former flowing through the city and the latter around it.

The modern Turkish town of Bergama is built among the ruins of the ancient metropolis. Bergama has fifteen mosques, one of which is the early Byzantine church of St. Sophia.

The name “Pergamum” has been perpetuated in the word “parchment” (Latin pergamena, Greek pergamene and charta), since the city developed the use of the material for writing. "

General information from here (http://www.christianleadershipcenter.org/bibarch19.htm)



St Antipas like St Polycarp would not submit to emperor worship. The reason being that the church is not nationalistic, the church worships God not nations or rulers. So especially a clergyman like Bishop Antipas (appointed by the Apostles) isn't going to submit to such a thing.

This place is noted as a stronghold in Orthodox Christian history. The eastern churches would not align themselves with Rome's patriarchate alone (there are five patriarchates), nor meet their terms of belief. The Muslims took it over as the Roman church would not help with defense against the Turkish Muslims, unless the eastern Christians submitted to them as their sole authority of the Church. A do or die situation.

And so, one of Christianity's most beautiful churches, St Sophia of the Byzantine era, was taken by the Muslim invaders who converted it into a mosque, as they've done with many Christian churches in the east.


As always, thanks Teke ... for the clarity on Antipas and the link.;)

Clifton
Feb 21st 2008, 09:11 PM
I understand what you're saying here...
Let me see if I can explain the issue at hand....

The point I'M making is, Jesus said "these things" would happen in their lifetime / generation.
Now, the question is: What were "THESE THINGS" he was talking about?
I'm sure whatever it was, DID happen.

We have different ideas of what they were, which causes the debate.
I agree there are STILL prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.
I don't subscribe to the "Full Preterist" belief that EVERYTHING has ALREADY been fulfilled.

Has he "returned" in the sense of final fulfillment? No.
THAT part we both agree on. :)

But I believe what he said would happen in "Their Generation" was something different than coming back to dwell amongst us. (as in his a'second coming")
I see it as coming back to Vindicate his deity, & revealing his power as the TRUE KING, and fulfilling the destruction of the temple, putting a final end to the old sacrificial system.

He is with us in spirit now, and one day we'll be with him PHYSICALLY too! :spin:


Sounds similar or close to my status, a PHF (Preterist-Historicist-Futurist) <Past, Present, and Future> and that which is in between.;). Well, that's the best ID I could come up with for myself, until someone can provide a better term.:)

Clifton
Feb 21st 2008, 10:00 PM
Therefore what Jesus said In Matthew 24 was not only for their generation?

Which segment(s) in Matthew 24 do you refer to? There is at least 3. Well, take v.26-28 and put them up in a few chapters earlier, and that would narrow it down to at least 2.

v.1-11, 13-25 (though they are in disorder);
v.29-35

v.43-50, 37-41 (should go about 8 chapters earlier, say Chap. 16)

Well, as for Chap. 25, it should be pushed up four chapters, say 21.

Heavy, eh? :D To simplify what a "dislocated" text is, take Luke 3 for example. In v.19-20 John The Baptist is imprisoned, then it the next verse, Christ is baptized by John The Baptist. Obviously, this did not happen in prison. Thus, v.19-20 is an interruption and/or a dislocated text. In this case, it is usually obvious and won't make your head spin.;)

These disorders are not so bad, but when it comes to 'escahtology' issues, things are so distorted for the end user whom see things in a chronology order. The Book Of Revelation (John's Apocalypse) was set in order over 80 years ago, but that does not show up in our Bibles. Matthew has been set in order in the UPDV Bible (http://www.updated.org/download.shtml), but the chapter and verse numbers had to change - they provide PDF Reference Charts (http://www.updated.org/matthew.shtml) which looks like (but columned better in the PDF file than this post):
Old New
24:1 24:1
24:2 24:2
24:3 24:3
24:4 24:4
24:5 24:5
24:6 24:6
24:7 24:7
24:8 24:8
24:9 [24:9-10]
24:10 [24:13]
24:11 [24:24]
24:12 o-u
24:13 [24:14]
24:14 [24:10]
24:15 [24:15]
24:16 24:16
24:17 24:17
24:18 24:18
24:19 24:19
24:20 [24:20]
24:21 24:21
24:22 24:22
24:23 [24:23]
24:24 24:24
24:25 [24:25]

24:26 20:17
24:27 20:18
24:28 20:19

24:29 24:26
24:30 [24:27]
24:31 [24:28]
24:32 24:29
24:33 24:30
24:34 24:31
24:35 24:32
24:36 o-uc

24:37 16:35
24:38 16:36
24:39 16:37
24:40 16:38
24:41 16:39
24:42 o-u
24:43 16:26
24:44 16:27
24:45 16:28
24:46 16:29
24:47 16:30
24:48 16:31
24:49 [16:32]
24:50 16:33
24:51 o-u

25:14-30 [21:21-36]

There are some issues UPDV Bible (http://www.updated.org/) that do not go over well with some people (like the extremely strict methodology on what to "include" and "not include" in the texts, which is based on newer discoveries), but, having Matthew better sequenced is quite nice. As for Revelation in the proper sequence, I can accommodate anyone on that at this time, where like Matthew in UPDV, Revelation can be properly understood, at least from an eschatology position, and Hollywood can have its cake and eat it too:P. The work was done from 1895-1920 A.D. by R.H. Charles, and was the standard for understanding Revelation for about 50 years. I've put his English translation into a more up to date English (primarily using the WEB Public Domain Bible), and the chapter and verses are still the same, but just 'appear' in a different order than that of the 3 Greek versions in today's English Bibles.

Teke
Feb 21st 2008, 10:43 PM
Therefore what Jesus said In Matthew 24 was not only for their generation?

What He tells them about the temple is for their generation. What He says about tribulation and His coming is for all, that generation of Christians as well as future generations of Christians.

The Church will be persecuted in the world. It is God's will. And it continues to be persecuted in the world. Christians are killed all over the world every day.:cry:

Firstfruits
Feb 22nd 2008, 09:26 AM
Which segment(s) in Matthew 24 do you refer to? There is at least 3. Well, take v.26-28 and put them up in a few chapters earlier, and that would narrow it down to at least 2.

v.1-11, 13-25 (though they are in disorder);
v.29-35

v.43-50, 37-41 (should go about 8 chapters earlier, say Chap. 16)

Well, as for Chap. 25, it should be pushed up four chapters, say 21.

Heavy, eh? :D To simplify what a "dislocated" text is, take Luke 3 for example. In v.19-20 John The Baptist is imprisoned, then it the next verse, Christ is baptized by John The Baptist. Obviously, this did not happen in prison. Thus, v.19-20 is an interruption and/or a dislocated text. In this case, it is usually obvious and won't make your head spin.;)

These disorders are not so bad, but when it comes to 'escahtology' issues, things are so distorted for the end user whom see things in a chronology order. The Book Of Revelation (John's Apocalypse) was set in order over 80 years ago, but that does not show up in our Bibles. Matthew has been set in order in the UPDV Bible (http://www.updated.org/download.shtml), but the chapter and verse numbers had to change - they provide PDF Reference Charts (http://www.updated.org/matthew.shtml) which looks like (but columned better in the PDF file than this post):
Old New
24:1 24:1
24:2 24:2
24:3 24:3
24:4 24:4
24:5 24:5
24:6 24:6
24:7 24:7
24:8 24:8
24:9 [24:9-10]
24:10 [24:13]
24:11 [24:24]
24:12 o-u
24:13 [24:14]
24:14 [24:10]
24:15 [24:15]
24:16 24:16
24:17 24:17
24:18 24:18
24:19 24:19
24:20 [24:20]
24:21 24:21
24:22 24:22
24:23 [24:23]
24:24 24:24
24:25 [24:25]

24:26 20:17
24:27 20:18
24:28 20:19

24:29 24:26
24:30 [24:27]
24:31 [24:28]
24:32 24:29
24:33 24:30
24:34 24:31
24:35 24:32
24:36 o-uc

24:37 16:35
24:38 16:36
24:39 16:37
24:40 16:38
24:41 16:39
24:42 o-u
24:43 16:26
24:44 16:27
24:45 16:28
24:46 16:29
24:47 16:30
24:48 16:31
24:49 [16:32]
24:50 16:33
24:51 o-u

25:14-30 [21:21-36]

There are some issues UPDV Bible (http://www.updated.org/) that do not go over well with some people (like the extremely strict methodology on what to "include" and "not include" in the texts, which is based on newer discoveries), but, having Matthew better sequenced is quite nice. As for Revelation in the proper sequence, I can accommodate anyone on that at this time, where like Matthew in UPDV, Revelation can be properly understood, at least from an eschatology position, and Hollywood can have its cake and eat it too:P. The work was done from 1895-1920 A.D. by R.H. Charles, and was the standard for understanding Revelation for about 50 years. I've put his English translation into a more up to date English (primarily using the WEB Public Domain Bible), and the chapter and verses are still the same, but just 'appear' in a different order than that of the 3 Greek versions in today's English Bibles.

The fact that as Jesus said, there will be false Christs and false prophets at Christs return.
Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The fact that during the reign of the beast/AC that are here at Christs return, saints will be killed.
Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The fact that God will pour out his wrath/tribulation on all that worship the beast/AC that are here at Christs return.
Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

The fact that there is only one second coming and then the judgment.

The fact that there is only one unchangeable gospel for all.
Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Clifton
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:49 PM
The fact that as Jesus said, there will be false Christs and false prophets at Christs return.
Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The fact that during the reign of the beast/AC that are here at Christs return, saints will be killed.
Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The fact that God will pour out his wrath/tribulation on all that worship the beast/AC that are here at Christs return.
Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

The fact that there is only one second coming and then the judgment.

The fact that there is only one unchangeable gospel for all.
Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


This is all great stuff, however, it did not even address the crux of my question at all (you gave no references to Matthew at all, nor even from the Gospels - at least parallels to Matthew 24, which could be like Mark 13 which has things better aligned).

You stated:


Therefore what Jesus said In Matthew 24 was not only for their generation?

Thus, to your statement I asked:

“Which segment(s) in Matthew 24 do you refer to?” There is at least 3. Well, take v.26-28 and put them up in a few chapters earlier, and that would narrow it down to at least 2.

And I made it easier by providing grouped segments. The question is:
“Which segment(s) in Matthew 24 do you refer to?” Are you referring to just “parts” of it, “all”, “none” of it?

I could summarize a whole by saying, yes, there are some things that were for “that” generation only, and that it is why it says “this generation” as opposed to “that generation” or “those (or ‘these’) generations”, but when we learn Greek we learn about contrasts in Greek (as such exists in English). To quote one learning source:
“The destruction of the temple was to be within one generation, but the time of Christ’s return was unknown. If we can trust the evidence of Mark 13 and some of the parables , Jesus did not expect His return to be soon. Of course, an attentive reading of a good translation will also show this, but it sometimes the careful attention to the Greek text necessary for the task of translation that makes us more sharply aware of what it actually says.” – Learn New Greek Testament, Lesson 52.7, p.278, © John H. Dobson, 1989.
Again, the question is: “Which segment(s) in Matthew 24 do you refer to?”

As for the final stage of "ή παρουσια" (“The Parousia”), Last and Final Advent of Christ, that is yet to occur. ;)

Firstfruits
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:05 PM
This is all great stuff, however, it did not even address the crux of my question at all (you gave no references to Matthew at all, nor even from the Gospels - at least parallels to Matthew 24, which could be like Mark 13 which has things better aligned).

You stated:



Thus, to your statement I asked:

“Which segment(s) in Matthew 24 do you refer to?” There is at least 3. Well, take v.26-28 and put them up in a few chapters earlier, and that would narrow it down to at least 2.

And I made it easier by providing grouped segments. The question is:
“Which segment(s) in Matthew 24 do you refer to?” Are you referring to just “parts” of it, “all”, “none” of it?


I could summarize a whole by saying, yes, there are some things that were for “that” generation only, and that it is why it says “this generation” as opposed to “that generation” or “those (or ‘these’) generations”, but when we learn Greek we learn about contrasts in Greek (as such exists in English). To quote one learning source:
“The destruction of the temple was to be within one generation, but the time of Christ’s return was unknown. If we can trust the evidence of Mark 13 and some of the parables , Jesus did not expect His return to be soon. Of course, an attentive reading of a good translation will also show this, but it sometimes the careful attention to the Greek text necessary for the task of translation that makes us more sharply aware of what it actually says.” – Learn New Greek Testament, Lesson 52.7, p.278, © John H. Dobson, 1989.
Again, the question is: “Which segment(s) in Matthew 24 do you refer to?”

As for the final stage of "ή παρουσια" (“The Parousia”), Last and Final Advent of Christ, that is yet to occur. ;)

The fact that as Jesus said, there will be false Christs and false prophets at Christs return. Matthew 24:5-15
Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The fact that during the reign of the beast/AC that are here at Christs return, saints will be killed. Matthew 24:5-15
Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The fact that God will pour out his wrath/tribulation on all that worship the beast/AC that are here at Christs return. Matthew 24:21-24
Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

The fact that there is only one second coming and then the judgment. Matthew 24:29-31

The fact that there is only one unchangeable gospel for all. Matthew 24:14
Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Hope the added scriptures are of help.

Clifton
Feb 22nd 2008, 05:22 PM
The fact that as Jesus said, there will be false Christs and false prophets at Christs return. Matthew 24:5-15
Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The fact that during the reign of the beast/AC that are here at Christs return, saints will be killed. Matthew 24:5-15
Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The fact that God will pour out his wrath/tribulation on all that worship the beast/AC that are here at Christs return. Matthew 24:21-24
Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

The fact that there is only one second coming and then the judgment. Matthew 24:29-31

The fact that there is only one unchangeable gospel for all. Matthew 24:14
Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Hope the added scriptures are of help.

Yes, it does... in short:
Matthew 24:5-15
Matthew 24:21-24
Matthew 24:29-31
Matthew 24:14


Thus, to your question, "Therefore what Jesus said In Matthew 24 was not only for their generation?" The answer is "no." - Examples have already been given here.

Saved7
Feb 23rd 2008, 03:06 AM
I'm sorry, but every time I look at the title of this thread, it turns my stomach. I have to say to the OP and others of us who seem to think that they have all the answers or are the PERSON who understands Revelation, ya'll need to check your attitudes and realize that you are not the only person who believes they PROPERLY understand Revelation. And yet many of those same people hold very different views from you.

While I agree with the idea that we need to PROPERLY UNDERSTAND Revelation, I have to say that NONE of us, understands it like we think and I think it's rather egotistical to assume you (any who think they've got a handle) are the elite few who need to be out there training us foolish and easily deceived christians.

Why don't you title your threads "MY Personal views or MY Personal Understanding of Revelation"
Coming in here with this "I'm gonna teach ya'll something" attitude is prideful, and I have been guilty of it in the past and I've seen the division and insults that it causes.
Be careful of how you all express your views.

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:10 AM
Yes, it does... in short:
Matthew 24:5-15
Matthew 24:21-24
Matthew 24:29-31
Matthew 24:14


Thus, to your question, "Therefore what Jesus said In Matthew 24 was not only for their generation?" The answer is "no." - Examples have already been given here.



Thank's Clifton, and thank you for your patience.

Firstfruits