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Roelof
Feb 17th 2008, 06:13 AM
Is the European Union the Revived Roman Empire of Rev. 13.3?


And I saw one of its heads as having been slain to death, and its deadly wound was healed. And all the earth marveled after the beast. (Rev 13:3 NKJV)


The Beast from the Sea: Revelation 13 (KJV Bible Commentary)

13:3. His deadly wound was healed. Rome did suffer political decline. The city of Rome fell in a.d. 476, and to this hour the Roman Empire has ceased to exist. But it will rise again, as this chapter reveals. Since World War II and Churchill’s statement concerning the United States of Europe {European Union}, there have been strong currents to build a confederation of nations in Europe as a sort of buffer between the superpowers of the East and West.









Towards One World State – European Union


PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO CLIP “North American Union & VCHip Truth”
on Youtube.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo)

“Daniel was then told to protect the message received so that it could be read in later times. The time of the end is aptly described as a day when knowledge shall be increased, namely our modern computer era.” (Daniel 12:4, KJV Bible Commentary)

Here follows an extract from the book of John Hagee, "From Daniel to Doomsday:"
“The literal translation of Dan. 12:4 indicates that during the end times, an explosion of knowledge will occur. We are living in that generation.”

The World Wide Web (www) was created in 1989 by Sir Tim Berners-Lee, working at CERN in Switzerland.

Since 1989 the Internet has led to an explosion of knowledge.

We are living in the “end of the End Times” !!!

The final Antichrist will have total political, religious and economic power over the world:

· Revelation 13:4(21st Century King James Version)And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” (political power)

· Revelation 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (religious power), whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb,
· Revelation 13:17 that no man might buy or sell(economical power), save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name.

The Beast from the Sea: Revelation 13 (KJV Bible Commentary)

13:1. In Rev 19:20 the two beasts of this chapter are designated as the beast and the false prophet. With the dragon (vs. 2), they form a horrendous trio of evil. The beasts are the chief wicked instruments of Satan. Here is the culmination of the world’s desire for the amalgamation and merger of political and religious power, a combination of church and state.
The Roman Beast and the Antichrist (man of sin of II Thess 2:3) will fulfill the longing of the ungodly.


13:2. This verse throws much light on Daniel 7:1–12. There the first beast was a lion (eagles’ wings are added to bring out added truth), namely, Babylon; the second was a bear, that is, Medo-Persia; the third was a leopard (birds’ wings and heads are included to set forth additional truths), i.e., Greece. The fourth beast is not likened to any known animal in nature; hence, it is called the nondescript. Now it is clear why the fourth beast is not named, because there is no beast that combines the features of a leopard, bear, and lion. But the revived Roman Empire will incorporate the features of the preceding three empires. Ancient Rome boasted that no matter how many powers she subjugated in her conquests, she could always assimilate them into her hegemony. That political power is being emphasized here is certain from the mention of his power, and his seat (i.e., the whole earth), and great authority.


13:3. His deadly wound was healed. Rome did suffer political decline. The city of Rome fell in a.d. 476, and to this hour the Roman Empire has ceased to exist. But it will rise again, as this chapter reveals. Since World War II and Churchill’s statement concerning the United States of Europe {European Union}, there have been strong currents to build a confederation of nations in Europe as a sort of buffer between the superpowers of the East and West. Ten kingdoms will arise in western Europe (cf. 17:12). The ancient Roman Empire never existed in this form. It will represent a strong attempt to centralize political and economic power (17:13). The ruler over the federated kingdoms will be the “little horn” of Daniel 7:8 (cf. also Dan 9:27). The first beast of chapter 13 is the “little horn” (signifying political power) of Daniel 7:24–25. All the world wondered after the beast. Because the turn of events will be beyond normal expectation, the whole world will be astounded and, feeling there is the exhibition of supernatural power, will give their allegiance to the beast. Their wonder will turn to worship, because the world has not witnessed such a sight as the revived Roman Empire. Once more Satan will attempt to usurp God’s place.


13:4. And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast. Realizing that the political leader is exercising power delegated from Satan, the world will turn to worship the source of that authority. In doing so, they ascribe omnipotence and invincibility to the beast. The insolent questions are to be answered in 19:11–16.

13:18. His number is Six hundred threescore and six (666). It is almost impossible to list the number of suggestions for 666; they range all the way from Nero in ancient Rome to persons in this day. Probably the most that can be gleaned is that since seven is the biblical number of completion, six, which falls short of it, is man’s failure at its worst.

Man’s worship of man is, indeed, spiritual insanity to the highest degree.

CASHLESS ECONOMY
SA Banks recently released credit cards with micro chips or SIM cards. It will also be used in debit cards later.
A huge amount of personal and financial information can be stored on it. In South Africa micro chips are already used in prepaid phone cards, cell phones, DsTv decoder cards, and entry cards. Micro chips ID cards wiil also be released in the not too far future. It will be able to store personal information, voice recordings, finger prints, DNA chains, and photo’s. Micro chip financial cards can then later be integreted with micro chip ID cards.



After the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:15-18 & 1 Cor 15:51-58) of the Church of the New Born, Satan could control the economy and politics of the world, if he could control the following 7 regions:


CURRENTLY THE WORLD CAN BE DIVIDED INTO 7 GEO-POLITICAL AND ECONOMICAL REGIONS:

· EUROPEAN UNION,
· NORTH AMERICA: USA & CANADA & MEXICO
· COMMONWEALTH OF INDEPENDENT STATES (CIS)
· ASSOCIATION OF SOUTHEAST ASIANS NATIONS (ASEAN) + 3
· AUSTRALASIA
· SOUTH AMERICA
· AFRICAN UNION


EUROPEAN UNION
The European Union (EU) is a political and economic community with supranational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supranationalism) and intergovernmental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergovernmentalism) features. It is composed of twenty-seven member states primarily located in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe). The EU created a single market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_market) which seeks to guarantee the freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_%28European_Union%29) between member states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_member_state). It maintains a common trade policy, agricultural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy) and fisheries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy) policies, and a regional development policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Regional_policy). In 1957, six European countries formed the European Economic Community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community) (EEC) by the Treaty of Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Rome) (first beast of Revelation 13 resides in Rome.)
With almost 500 million citizens the EU generates an estimated 31 % share of the world’s nominal GDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product) (€11.8 / US$ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US%24)16.6 trillion) in 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU)


Rev 13:5. (KJV Bible Commentary)

13:5. Notice that here, and in verse 7, the words given unto him occur four times. All is under the permissive direction of God,as with Job andSatan long ago (cf. Job 1–2). Only great things and blasphemies issue from the mouth of this beast (also vs. 1, name of blasphemy;cf. Dan 7:8, 11, 20, 25). This latter part of the Tribulation Period, called the Great Tribulation (cf. 7:14), is so important that it is referred to explicitly by days (12:6), years (12:14), and months (here).

Cyberseeker
Feb 17th 2008, 07:21 AM
13:3. His deadly wound was healed. Rome did suffer political decline. The city of Rome fell in a.d. 476, and to this hour the Roman Empire has ceased to exist. But it will rise again ...

Why do futurists happily follow the prophecy of Daniel 7 until they get to AD476 then jump 1500 years to the ten kings?

Why do futurists happily follow the prophecy of Daniel 9 until they get to 69th week then jump 2000 years to the 70th week?

Why do futurists have a fascination for gaps? They just dont make sence. They stuff up the entire purpose for which they were given. The prophecies of Daniel are continuous, consecutive timespans with no gaps inbetween.

IMHO, of course. :saint:

ShirleyFord
Feb 17th 2008, 01:30 PM
Why do futurists happily follow the prophecy of Daniel 7 until they get to AD476 then jump 1500 years to the ten kings?

Why do futurists happily follow the prophecy of Daniel 9 until they get to 69th week then jump 2000 years to the 70th week?

Dispensationalism would fall apart without the gaps IMHO.


Why do futurists have a fascination for gaps? Because "gaps" are the very life-giving breath of dispensationalism that keeps it alive IMHO.


They just dont make sence. They stuff up the entire purpose for which they were given. The prophecies of Daniel are continuous, consecutive timespans with no gaps inbetween.

I wholeheartedly agree, Cyber. :)


Shirley

David Taylor
Feb 17th 2008, 01:41 PM
Is the European Union the Revived Roman Empire of Rev. 13.3?


Rev. 13.3, nor any of Revelation, mention a Revived Roman Empire.

Revelation mentions God's Kingdom.
Revelation mentions Satan's Kingdom.

No endtime-Revived Romans though.

skypair
Feb 17th 2008, 01:51 PM
Why do futurists happily follow the prophecy of Daniel 7 until they get to AD476 then jump 1500 years to the ten kings?

Why do futurists happily follow the prophecy of Daniel 9 until they get to 69th week then jump 2000 years to the 70th week?

Why do futurists have a fascination for gaps? Mainly because Daniel and the OT saints knew nothing about the CHURCH, 1cor 2:7-9.

Don't worry -- we fill the gap with Rev 2-3. And when that last church, Laodicea, brings her followers close enough to Thyatira, the rest of Daniel will be in sight.

skkypair

markdrums
Feb 17th 2008, 11:19 PM
I've also previously pointed out the problems & confusions that occur with the dispensational view...

It seems as though the foundation for this model of End Times study is based on what ISN'T in the scripture, rather than what IS in the scripture.

Without getting into too many issues right now, I'll just say that.
:D

(for now...)
LOL!!

markedward
Feb 18th 2008, 05:13 AM
Mainly because Daniel and the OT saints knew nothing about the CHURCH, 1cor 2:7-9.

Don't worry -- we fill the gap with Rev 2-3. And when that last church, Laodicea, brings her followers close enough to Thyatira, the rest of Daniel will be in sight.As I often do, I point out Christ's own words, "this generation shall not pass away." It seems a little contradictory for Daniel to give us 70 consecutive weeks and Jesus to refer to the events of Daniel 9 as happening in His own "generation" if that generation continued on for another two thousand years. If anything, the only "gap" that could have happened was the "generation" (roughly 40-50 years?) that Jesus mentioned, but it's not really a "gap" if it was actually mentioned in Scripture.

Roelof
Feb 19th 2008, 08:00 PM
Rev. 13.3, nor any of Revelation, mention a Revived Roman Empire.

Revelation mentions God's Kingdom.
Revelation mentions Satan's Kingdom.

No endtime-Revived Romans though.

David Taylor

My comments on Rev 13.3 were fom the KJV Commentary and were clearly marked as such.

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 08:20 PM
Only one head of the seven heads returns as the beast.

one head wounded unto death
his deadly wound was healed


All of the seven heads are dead before the ten horns ever rise to power. Later one of the dead heads get his king's head healed and rules his area again.

Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon


the future man of sin


owes God 666 talents of gold for his sin at the holy site


Ask yourself?
What takes place in Daniel 5?
Belshazzar did wickedness with the holy vessels and then God weighed him for his number.

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 08:29 PM
I watch for 13 euro countries to come about, right now there are 12.

The beast plucks up three kings and rules with the ten that remain.

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 08:31 PM
As I often do, I point out Christ's own words, "this generation shall not pass away." It seems a little contradictory for Daniel to give us 70 consecutive weeks and Jesus to refer to the events of Daniel 9 as happening in His own "generation" if that generation continued on for another two thousand years. If anything, the only "gap" that could have happened was the "generation" (roughly 40-50 years?) that Jesus mentioned, but it's not really a "gap" if it was actually mentioned in Scripture.


Daniel 9:27 takes understanding about the he verse that Daniel supplicated over at the start of the chapter.
Gabriel came to tell Daniel eventually about that time of the future. A he will desolate message is to explain Jeremiah's 25:11 prophecy to Daniel.

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 08:33 PM
Jesus told His generation that they would not see signs from heaven.

The generation that sees the heavenly signs is the gereration of Christ's return.

Gary Rake
Feb 19th 2008, 11:54 PM
Well with a recent article I read saying that by 2020 Europe will be so heavily populated with Muslims that they will be able to swing the national vote...would the EU then find any difficulty aligning itself with the other major Islamic players in the geographical area once held by the old Roman empire?

hmmm?

Roelof
Feb 20th 2008, 03:34 AM
Well with a recent article I read saying that by 2020 Europe will be so heavily populated with Muslims that they will be able to swing the national vote...would the EU then find any difficulty aligning itself with the other major Islamic players in the geographical area once held by the old Roman empire?

hmmm?

Gary

Can you please give me the source of this interesting article?

brakelite
Feb 20th 2008, 08:47 AM
Some parts of your post I agree with, but some not. But there is one verse in Daniel that destroys your (Euro reunion) theory.

Da 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.


Over the centuries there have been many attempts to reunite Europe. Charlemagne,Charles 1, Napoleon, Hitler, and several others. They all failed. And the above prophecy declares that all future attempts will likewise fail.

The Roman empire did not cease to exist. The iron/clay mix continues in an unbroken line right down to the second coming. No gaps!!! It is simply the nature of the empire that changed. From iron, to iron and clay. A combination of church and state (RCC) continued the Roman empire. History records it as the 'holy' Roman empire.

Your church/state understanding of Rev 13 fits the RCC like a glove.

Brakelite.

markedward
Feb 20th 2008, 02:38 PM
I watch for 13 euro countries to come about, right now there are 12.

The beast plucks up three kings and rules with the ten that remain.
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.1 - Ten horns.

2 - "Another little" horn is seen.

3 - Three of the first horns are plucked up.

Of the original ten, three are plucked up from out of them. If I hold out ten apples in my hand, and you take three of those apples, that doesn't mean we have thirteen apples total, it means you took away three of the original ten.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 20th 2008, 03:09 PM
As I often do, I point out Christ's own words, "this generation shall not pass away." It seems a little contradictory for Daniel to give us 70 consecutive weeks and Jesus to refer to the events of Daniel 9 as happening in His own "generation" if that generation continued on for another two thousand years. If anything, the only "gap" that could have happened was the "generation" (roughly 40-50 years?) that Jesus mentioned, but it's not really a "gap" if it was actually mentioned in Scripture.


Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD's, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Psa 24:2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Psa 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

What 'This' generation was David speaking of?

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this [G5026] generation.

G5026 [This]

tautē tautēn tautēs
tow-'tay, tow'-tane, tow'-tace
Dative, accusative and genitive case respectively of the feminine singular of G3778; (towards or of) this: - her, + hereof, it, that, + thereby, the (same), this (same).

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This [G3778] generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

G3778 [This]

houtos houtoi hautē hautai
hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee
Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or that (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

vinsight4u8
Feb 20th 2008, 03:29 PM
1 - Ten horns.

2 - "Another little" horn is seen.

3 - Three of the first horns are plucked up.

Of the original ten, three are plucked up from out of them. If I hold out ten apples in my hand, and you take three of those apples, that doesn't mean we have thirteen apples total, it means you took away three of the original ten.


Daniel 7 contains three visions in one night. We have to realize that Daniel told us the "sum" of them. Daniel would combine common parts for us.

Daniel's first vision of that night:
four great beasts came up from the sea

What did the fouth beast look like and what happened with that part?

Daniel did not tell us right then, but instead goes into the second vision time of that night.

vision - now changes to "visions"

Daniel 7
visions of his head
told the sum


verse 2
in my night vision

verse 7
in the night visions

verse 13
in the night visions

Okay, then later we are told that the little horn is diverse from the "first".
Our job is to gain the understanding of when Daniel first saw the little horn and he was with another set of horns.

When was that?
in the first vision of that night

That is why later we are told more than one situation having been seen as to the little horn speaking great words.

vinsight4u8
Feb 20th 2008, 03:47 PM
Which way did things go when Daniel saw the little horn speaking great words?

Daniel 7

verse 8
"...another little horn...a mouth speaking great things.....verse 9....beheld till the thrones were cast down...verse 10....and the books were opened."



verse 11
"...the voice of the great words...the horn...beheld till the beast was slain..."

Hardly the same timing pictured here, as it ends long before the books get opened.

Conclusion:
Daniel saw the same little horn big mouth wordy dude twice and each time he was seen linked up with a fourth beast. The first time Daniel saw this little horn was before verse 7, where the second account of the little horn comes in.

vinsight4u8
Feb 20th 2008, 03:52 PM
Here is another way to show the fourth beast of verse 7 is not the same as the one that Daniel saw come up in the first vision of the night.

Daniel 7
verse 3
four great beasts
diverse from one another

Information that will not need repeated unless another fourth beast gets seen....so


verse 7
a fourth beast
diverse from all of the beasts that were before it
had ten horns

Roelof
Feb 21st 2008, 12:57 PM
I watch for 13 euro countries to come about, right now there are 12.

The beast plucks up three kings and rules with the ten that remain.

Please explain for me, I know there are 27 member states of the EU

vinsight4u8
Feb 24th 2008, 02:22 PM
There are many EU countries, but very few of them have dropped their currency and joined the group as to the eruo.

referring to the situation of the ten horns
Rev. 17:17 (KJV)
"For God hath put it in their hearts to...agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast..."

See how the beast will not need to pluck up any of these kings? God has them willingly giving their kingdom to the beast king.


Looking at verse 12 speaks as to the ten (at the time of John) have yet for any of them to get a kingdom.
I say this is also a flag to us that the beast though that it spoken of a "was, and is not" did once long ago receive a kingdom place and so he will later ascend out of the pit and regain that kingdom.


The 12 euro countries are:
Let me look them up as I haven't checked on them since several years or so ago when Greece was the last to join.


http://www.bankofgreece.gr/en/euro/Changeover.asp

Jerome1
Feb 29th 2008, 11:38 PM
Yes the European Union may very well be considered a revived Roman Empire. Anyone who has studied revelation from an historical perspective will be able to see the significance of this.

Anyone that denies that Europe is becoming more politically entwined with a single currency, universal laws, and the impending election of the first permanent EU president is not paying attention.

ross3421
Mar 1st 2008, 07:03 AM
Rev. 13.3, nor any of Revelation, mention a Revived Roman Empire.

Revelation mentions God's Kingdom.
Revelation mentions Satan's Kingdom.

No endtime-Revived Romans though.


amen....................

Jerome1
Mar 1st 2008, 03:21 PM
Rev. 13.3, nor any of Revelation, mention a Revived Roman Empire.

Revelation mentions God's Kingdom.
Revelation mentions Satan's Kingdom.

No endtime-Revived Romans though.

I't been a while since i studied the comparisons between Revelation and the book of Daniel. What kingdoms do you think the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream represent in the book of Daniel?

Roelof
Mar 6th 2008, 06:42 AM
Yes the European Union may very well be considered a revived Roman Empire. Anyone who has studied revelation from an historical perspective will be able to see the significance of this.

Anyone that denies that Europe is becoming more politically entwined with a single currency, universal laws, and the impending election of the first permanent EU president is not paying attention.

Jerome1

Thank you for your comments, I will watch the development of the EU closely.

Jerome1
Mar 6th 2008, 08:57 PM
Jerome1

Thank you for your comments, I will watch the development of the EU closely.

The European Union is currently waiting for the Treaty of Lisbon to be ratified by all exisiting members of the EU, so that it can come into force in 2009. The, "Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union," was formally called the, "Treaty of Rome."

I have a paper right beside me now which is headlined, Barroso stuns politicians, says: "EU is now an Empire."

Barroso is the former Prime Minister of Portugal and i believe he is the current President of the European Commision.

Here is the link to what he said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Ralocq9uE

Roelof
Mar 7th 2008, 03:52 AM
The European Union is currently waiting for the Treaty of Lisbon to be ratified by all exisiting members of the EU, so that it can come into force in 2009. The, "Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union," was formally called the, "Treaty of Rome."



Jerome1

Thanks for the video clip.
If you have more information on the "powers" of the EU relating to End Times, please post it.

Roelof
Mar 7th 2008, 01:30 PM
The European Union is currently waiting for the Treaty of Lisbon to be ratified by all exisiting members of the EU, so that it can come into force in 2009. The, "Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union," was formally called the, "Treaty of Rome."



Jerome1

You are perfectly right. The Treaty of Lisbon was signed on 13 Dec. 2007, preparing the EU for one constitution.

Grafted_In
Mar 7th 2008, 08:02 PM
I't been a while since i studied the comparisons between Revelation and the book of Daniel. What kingdoms do you think the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream represent in the book of Daniel?


Head of Gold - Babylon (609-539 B.C.)
Chest and Arms of Silver - Medo-Persia (539-331 B.C.)
Belly and Thighs (Hips) of Brass - Greece (331-168 B.C.)
Legs of Iron - Rome (168 B.C. - 476 A.D.)

The feet represent an Empire I believe yet future, from out of the land mass of the old Roman empire, but with a mixture of strong and weak nations, (10 toes of iron+clay)
The Roman empire was'nt just European, but included N Africa and the parts of the middle east, so their are a lot of possibilities in regards to which ten nations/Kings will be part of this last Gentile Empire.

Roelof
Mar 9th 2008, 05:02 AM
The Roman empire was'nt just European, but included N Africa and the parts of the middle east, so their are a lot of possibilities in regards to which ten nations/Kings will be part of this last Gentile Empire.

Grafted In

Any ideas on the words in blue?

Jerome1
Mar 9th 2008, 02:24 PM
Jerome1

Thanks for the video clip.
If you have more information on the "powers" of the EU relating to End Times, please post it.

Some other interesting facts about the Lisbon Treaty, it has close to 400 pages i believe and not one mention of God, even though Europe consists of predominately christian countries.

The new treaty proposes a permanent EU president and foreign minister for the first time.

The EU has a higher GDP than the USA, and is China's, America's and India's biggest trading partners, as well as others.

Of the worlds 500 largest corporations, 163 of them are headquatered in the EU.



Head of Gold - Babylon (609-539 B.C.)
Chest and Arms of Silver - Medo-Persia (539-331 B.C.)
Belly and Thighs (Hips) of Brass - Greece (331-168 B.C.)
Legs of Iron - Rome (168 B.C. - 476 A.D.)


Thanks Grafted_In i thought this was the general consenus, that is why i was interested to hear what David Taylor meant when he said, "No endtime-Revived Roman though."

ShirleyFord
Mar 9th 2008, 04:53 PM
Head of Gold - Babylon (609-539 B.C.)
Chest and Arms of Silver - Medo-Persia (539-331 B.C.)
Belly and Thighs (Hips) of Brass - Greece (331-168 B.C.)
Legs of Iron - Rome (168 B.C. - 476 A.D.)

The feet represent an Empire I believe yet future, from out of the land mass of the old Roman empire, but with a mixture of strong and weak nations, (10 toes of iron+clay)
The Roman empire was'nt just European, but included N Africa and the parts of the middle east, so their are a lot of possibilities in regards to which ten nations/Kings will be part of this last Gentile Empire.

According to Daniel 2, The Roman Empire that followed immediately after the Grecian Empire was represent by both "legs and feet"

Daniel 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

The feet and toes are not a future 5th kingdom but part of the 4th kingdom, the Roman Empire.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.


This is the 5th kingdom that Gabriel described to Daniel:

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


Shirley

honcho
Mar 9th 2008, 05:29 PM
Grafted In

Any ideas on the words in blue?

The ten horns are Muslim nations bordering the Mediterranean Sea starting with Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and five other Muslim nations, possibly Jordan, Gaza and the West Bank, Lebanon, Georgia and Turkey for sure. The small horn as the 11th is Syria.

Jerome1
Mar 9th 2008, 10:58 PM
The ten horns are Muslim nations bordering the Mediterranean Sea starting with Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and five other Muslim nations, possibly Jordan, Gaza and the West Bank, Lebanon, Georgia and Turkey for sure. The small horn as the 11th is Syria.

Why did you choose these countries from the former Roman Empire?

These countries are some of the weaker ones in terms of economic and military strength.

SunnyE
Mar 9th 2008, 11:19 PM
the verse 34 that Shirley quoted is probably one of the most important in the Old Testament. The stone cut out without hands refers to the Holy Spirit. All old kingdoms were smashed never to return when the Holy Spirit through Christ brought in an everlasting Kingdom.

There will never be any kind of restored kingdoms upon the Earth.

What God foretold would come through Christ is eternal. Sure, some earthly kingdoms and nations will be strong but will all disappear. Those who chose to be are in the Kingdom of God, no matter what part of the earth we may live in.

Grafted_In
Mar 9th 2008, 11:52 PM
The ten horns are Muslim nations bordering the Mediterranean Sea starting with Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and five other Muslim nations, possibly Jordan, Gaza and the West Bank, Lebanon, Georgia and Turkey for sure. The small horn as the 11th is Syria.

These nations were part of the Roman Empire, although right now its hard to say which nations will be strong and which ones will be weak.
I agree Syria will play a major role and the one known as the Antichrist/the small horn/the Assyrian, could come from there.

Grafted_In
Mar 10th 2008, 12:15 AM
The feet and toes are not a future 5th kingdom but part of the 4th kingdom, the Roman Empire.
Not part of the 5th empire no, they are of the 4th Empire, the Roman Empire however came to an end in 476AD. therefore for God's Kingdom to replace all of man's empires, (and by God's empire I take that to mean Christ's physical return and reign, and can't just simply refer to the church) their has to be an Empire which somehow resembles the Roman Empire, not in nature, but compassing the same land mass.

seeker_truth
Mar 10th 2008, 02:13 AM
Why do futurists happily follow the prophecy of Daniel 7 until they get to AD476 then jump 1500 years to the ten kings?

Why do futurists happily follow the prophecy of Daniel 9 until they get to 69th week then jump 2000 years to the 70th week?

Why do futurists have a fascination for gaps? They just dont make sence. They stuff up the entire purpose for which they were given. The prophecies of Daniel are continuous, consecutive timespans with no gaps inbetween.

IMHO, of course. :saint:


Humm...Futurist, dispensationalist...I prefer, realist..IMHO :)

Now, I'm not going to take the time, here, to explain Daniel 7 or Daniel 9:24-27, however, I can assure you that there are gaps in Daniel's 70 weeks..

Also, I've never had a 'fascination for gaps'..Yet, I've always felt a need to seek out the facts, be it doctrine or gaps...And, in doing so, found not only 'gaps' in Daniel's 70 weeks, but splits within a single week, which should put to rest any views taken on the subject by a Full Pretermist...Someone who believes in a 'no gap theory'...

Since Full Pretermist views are not allowed in the forum, I would have to assume that you are a Partial Pretermist, who believes in a 'spiritually preceived gap'...Which I find interesting, but not in the belief that it ultimately proposes...

seeker

honcho
Mar 10th 2008, 03:34 AM
Jerome1

Why did you choose these countries from the former Roman Empire?

These countries are some of the weaker ones in terms of economic and military strength.

The 10 nations come from within the boundaries of the former Roman Empire. In her zenith, about the time of Christ, she was strong as iron (2:39-40). Shortly before the second coming when Christ as the rock destroys all the kingdoms on earth, the Roman Empire is said to be partly strong like iron and partly weak and brittle like clay. The feet and 10 toes of Daniel's statue represent the present condition of the former Roman Empire (41-43). The ten toes representing 10 nations become the 10 horns in the time of the end along with the 11th horn as the Antichrist (7:7-8).


The 10 horns are said to different than the little horn (11th horn), they have something in common the little horn does not (7:24). The common thread of the 10 is their ethnic group and religion which is Muslim.The nations from Morocco east to Turkey are of the same ethnic group and religion. There are not 10 nations of the same ethnic group in the EU, they are all different. As you can see from current events in the Middle East the Muslim nations want to destroy Israel and His people and not the nations that make up the EU.

Jerome1
Mar 10th 2008, 07:58 AM
The 10 nations come from within the boundaries of the former Roman Empire. In her zenith, about the time of Christ, she was strong as iron (2:39-40). Shortly before the second coming when Christ as the rock destroys all the kingdoms on earth, the Roman Empire is said to be partly strong like iron and partly weak and brittle like clay. The feet and 10 toes of Daniel's statue represent the present condition of the former Roman Empire (41-43). The ten toes representing 10 nations become the 10 horns in the time of the end along with the 11th horn as the Antichrist (7:7-8).


The 10 horns are said to different than the little horn (11th horn), they have something in common the little horn does not (7:24). The common thread of the 10 is their ethnic group and religion which is Muslim.The nations from Morocco east to Turkey are of the same ethnic group and religion. There are not 10 nations of the same ethnic group in the EU, they are all different. As you can see from current events in the Middle East the Muslim nations want to destroy Israel and His people and not the nations that make up the EU.

How can the feet and ten toes represent the current condition of the Roman Empire, when there is only a partial confederation of countries belonging to the former Roman Empire. Those muslim countries you mentioned are not a part of the EU. The only country out of the ones you mentioned which is likely to join the EU is Turkey.

Most of the countries in the EU are predominately christian countries, Spain, France, Germany, Britain, Ireland etc etc....

Germany tried to eradicate the Jews during the second world war because of one charismatic leader. Do you not think the antichrist will be able to seduce these countries into the same hatred for the Jews?

honcho
Mar 10th 2008, 12:35 PM
How can the feet and ten toes represent the current condition of the Roman Empire, when there is only a partial confederation of countries belonging to the former Roman Empire. Those muslim countries you mentioned are not a part of the EU. The only country out of the ones you mentioned which is likely to join the EU is Turkey

I think, at the last count there are 27 nations in the EU, compare the map below with a map of the former Roman Empire. Only a few nations of the former empire need to join to make it complete. Turkey most likely will not join the EU, they are Muslim and one of the nations that invade Israel in the time of the end (Eze 38).

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

Jerome1
Mar 11th 2008, 01:05 AM
I think, at the last count there are 27 nations in the EU, compare the map below with a map of the former Roman Empire. Only a few nations of the former empire need to join to make it complete. Turkey most likely will not join the EU, they are Muslim and one of the nations that invade Israel in the time of the end (Eze 38).

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

Here is a list of the modern day countries which made up the former Roman Empire, it is far from being considered complete.

http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/empire/extent/rome-modern-day-nations.html

Turkey has applied to join the EU and there is a possibility they may be allowed to join in 2015.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=39201

I'm curious how you think the countries you mentioned as being the ten horns will muster the economic and military capabilities to devour the whole earth and trample it down and break it into pieces.(Daniel7:23)

Also if you don't think Turkey is going to join the EU, do you think it is going to form a confederation with the other countries that you mentioned?

honcho
Mar 11th 2008, 03:21 AM
I wanted you to compare the nations north of the Mediterranean Sea. The EU is almost complete as compared to the nations north of the Sea of the former Roman Empire. The nations bordering the Sea from Morocco to Turkey not in the EU will form their own union possibly to be called the Mediterranean Union or some other name tied to the Muslim culture.

http://www.roguegovernment.com/news.php?id=4672

PARIS: President Nicolas Sarkozy began a state visit to Morocco on Monday that will test how serious he is about pursuing one of his most intriguing foreign policy proposals: a Mediterranean Union inspired by the early European Common Market.
....................
In recent months, diplomatic initiatives on Iran and Kosovo have dominated the headlines and critics have dismissed the proposal to rally the countries of the Mediterranean rim into an institutional alliance as a tactic to keep Turkey out of the European Union and a cover for France to pursue bilateral interests in its former colonial backyard. Skeptics also question how a union could include volatile dictatorships and sworn enemies.Here is another union starting to form:
http://www.preceptaustin.org/revelation_commentaries.htm
........Gulf Cooperation Council -- The GCC groups Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates


Globalist planing a one world government have divided the world into 10 regions; region one in the North American Union of Canada, United States and Mexico; region two is the EU; region three is Japan and Pacific islands and region seven includes the Muslim nations from Morocco to Turkey.

The year 2015 is to late for Turkey to join the EU.

The fourth beast crushing the whole world is the former Roman Empire. "The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom" in the second half of the 70th week. The future 10 horns come from the former Roman Empire.

Roelof
Mar 11th 2008, 03:38 AM
Globalist planing a one world government have divided the world into 10 regions; region one in the North American Union of Canada, United States and Mexico; region two is the EU; region three is Japan and Pacific islands and region seven includes the Muslim nations from Morocco to Turkey.



honcho

Can you please give more info and resources on the ten regions?

I got the world divided into 7 regions:

· European Union,
· North America: USA & Canada & Mexico
· Commonwealth Of Independent States (CIS)
· Association Of Southeast Asians Nations (ASEAN) + 3
· Australasia
· South America
· African Union

Luke34
Mar 11th 2008, 04:42 AM
Is the European Union the Revived Roman Empire of Rev. 13.3?

The defining quality (or one) of any "empire" would seem to be that it is ruled by an emperor or at least by a central government. The EU is a "political and economic community" (Wikipedia) of independent countries.
So, no.

Roelof
Mar 11th 2008, 07:42 AM
The defining quality (or one) of any "empire" would seem to be that it is ruled by an emperor or at least by a central government. The EU is a "political and economic community" (Wikipedia) of independent countries.
So, no.

Luke34

With the signing of the Treaty of Lisbon in Dec. 2007, the EU is working towards One Constitution and a permanent president.

honcho
Mar 12th 2008, 01:35 AM
Roelof
Can you please give more info and resources on the ten regions?Various organizations over the years have worked on regionalization of the world, resulting in various configurations for the 10 regions. At this link http://endtimepilgrim.org/tenhorns.htm you can see a regional map contrived in 1941 near the bottom of the page. I disagree with the author of this site on the 10 horns being the 10 regions, rather the ten horns are ten Muslim nations.


Honcho
Globalist planing a one world government have divided the world into 10 regions; region one in the North American Union of Canada, United States and Mexico; region two is the EU; region three is Japan and Pacific islands and region seven includes the Muslim nations from Morocco to TurkeyThe above configuration came from the book 'En Route to Global Occupation' by Gary H. Kah. The organization behind this plan was the Club of Rome established in 1968, they released a report, entitled 'Regionalized and Adaptive Model of the Global World System' on September 17, 1973 that divided the world into ten enocomic/political regions. A map of the ten regions was published in the book "Mankind at the Turning Point' in 1974 which Gary Kah duplicated in his book. The Club of Rome plan actually includes Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Afganistan and Pakistan in the 7th region along with Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia Libya, Egypt and Jordan. For my concept of the 7th region, I've eliminated Saudi Arabia and nations east of Irag because they were not in the former Roman Empire, which is a requirement for the 10 horns and the Antichrist of Scripture. Club of Rome plan has Russia as region 5 and China as region 10.

Here's another more recent plan:

http://mazzaroth.com/ChapterSeven/TenRegionsWTO.htm

Notice region 4 includes Middle East countries and Northern Africa.

Luke34
Mar 12th 2008, 04:41 AM
Luke34

With the signing of the Treaty of Lisbon in Dec. 2007, the EU is working towards One Constitution and a permanent president.
The Treaty of Lisbon merely establishes a permanent president of the European Council - a post, according to Wikipedia, whose "exact nature...is unknown" and which has "no formal powers." And there actually already is a European Constitution, which will be superseded by the Treaty of Lisbon - so it's actually working away from a central constitution. And of course the members will still be autonomous.
So, still no.

Roelof
Mar 12th 2008, 05:30 AM
The Treaty of Lisbon merely establishes a permanent president of the European Council - a post, according to Wikipedia, whose "exact nature...is unknown" and which has "no formal powers." And there actually already is a European Constitution, which will be superseded by the Treaty of Lisbon - so it's actually working away from a central constitution. And of course the members will still be autonomous.
So, still no.

Some info on the Lisbon Treaty:

The Treaty of Lisbon (also known as the Reform Treaty) is a treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty) signed on 13 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_13) 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007) at a summit in Lisbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon), Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal). It amends the existing treaties of the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union) (EU). It is due to come into force in 2009, if successfully ratified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratified) by all EU member states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_member_state), and would carry out most of the reforms previously proposed in the rejected European Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_treaty

Luke34
Mar 12th 2008, 06:06 AM
Some info on the Lisbon Treaty:

The Treaty of Lisbon (also known as the Reform Treaty) is a treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty) signed on 13 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_13) 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007) at a summit in Lisbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon), Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal). It amends the existing treaties of the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union) (EU). It is due to come into force in 2009, if successfully ratified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratified) by all EU member states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_member_state), and would carry out most of the reforms previously proposed in the rejected European Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_treaty
That's the article I used for my post...and it may be a reform of the European Constitution, but it's still a treaty and not a constitution. All the members are still autonomous and the president still has no formal powers.

Befaithful
Mar 12th 2008, 07:38 AM
"I’m told Tony Blair and Gordon Brown have discussed the possibility of Mr Blair becoming President"...read more below

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2008/02/tony_blair_and_the_race_for_th.html

Jerome1
Mar 12th 2008, 08:55 AM
That's the article I used for my post...and it may be a reform of the European Constitution, but it's still a treaty and not a constitution. All the members are still autonomous and the president still has no formal powers.

The EU already has legislative powers in place that can challenge and overturn the laws of a sovereign nation. This is done by the European Courts of Justice, it also has the shell of a combined military force with EUFOR. It also wields huge economic and political power because it is the biggest trading partner to countries like the USA, China and India among others. It's GDP is greater than the USA's and it has a greater population than the USA.

The new permanent president along with his foreign minister would likely have a greater say on issues effecting the EU and the direction it is taking. This would include how it's monetery, legislative, political and military authority is used.

Jerome1
Mar 12th 2008, 08:56 AM
Edit, Double post.

Roelof
Mar 12th 2008, 11:57 AM
This page gives direct access to information on the activities and main policy priorities of José Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission.
http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/president/index_en.htm

Video clip: Discretionary Powers for EU Parliament President
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkHK_EFfTCM

Roelof
Mar 19th 2008, 07:05 AM
Various organizations over the years have worked on regionalization of the world, resulting in various configurations for the 10 regions.

The above configuration came from the book 'En Route to Global Occupation' by Gary H. Kah. The organization behind this plan was the Club of Rome established in 1968,

Here's another more recent plan:

http://mazzaroth.com/ChapterSeven/TenRegionsWTO.htm

Notice region 4 includes Middle East countries and Northern Africa.


Are there any Biblical prophesies for the 10 regions?

Literalist-Luke
Mar 19th 2008, 07:35 AM
Babylon’s “Future-History”

While the Roman Empire did indeed follow the Greek Empire in chronological history, it is a common error to believe that the Roman Empire is the fulfillment of Daniel’s fourth beast and John’s beast in Revelation. We must remember the context of the Book of Daniel and more specifically Daniel 7 and this particular vision. This passage deals with a vision that came on the heels of a dream (in Daniel 2) that was given to Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonian king. Once again, our Western-centric lenses have caused us to miss the obvious: God was not explaining the “future-history” of England or America or Europe or even specifically the future of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel. Instead, God was showing them the “future-history” of Mesopotamia, the area where Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel lived. The dream from Chapter 2 and the vision from Chapter 7 were descriptions of the future of the Babylonian Empire and the three primary empires that would rule Babylon after Nebuchadnezzar. While Rome was most certainly an important empire in world history from a Western perspective, its real significance to the Mesopotamian region, east of the Euphrates is actually quite minimal. Even during the period of the Roman Empire’s greatest eastward expansion, it was never able to fully secure control over the regions east of the Euphrates River. In the year 116 A.D. under Emperor Trajan, the Romans “conquered” portions of Mesopotamia. But it was within only a year, in 117 A.D., at the death of Trajan that the Romans lost southern Mesopotamia and retreated from the region. They were never able to secure control over the region in any substantial way. Because Nebuchadnezzar’s dream covered a thirteen hundred year period, dealing with only the significant conquering empires, the Roman Empire is essentially a mere footnote in Babylonian/Mesopotamian history and thus it was not even included in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. But the primary empires that would actually conquer and rule over Babylon were all included in the dream as we shall see here.

A Brief History of Mesopotamia

After his rule, Nebuchadnezzar’s empire would first be conquered by the Persians under Cyrus and then by Greece under Alexander the Great. After the division, decentralization, and demise of the Greek Empire, the region was controlled by what has come to be known as the Parthian and the Sassanid Empires. Little is actually known of the Parthian Empire; unfortunately, not much of their literature has survived. And while many gaps exist in the history of that period in this region, what we do know is that it was a period of loosely organized tribalism during which a strong sense of Persian and Greek/Hellenistic identity was maintained throughout the region. After the Parthian Empire, the Sassanid Empire was able to cement its position in the region, but its identity was still primarily Persian and Greek. Both the rulers and the peoples of the Sassanid Empire viewed themselves as the Persian successors to the Seleucid (Greek) Empire. For this reason, within Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, there was no distinction made between the Persian or the Greek Empires and the later Parthian or Sassanid period because the culture remained essentially the same. It was not until the Islamic Caliphate came and once again conquered the entire region that the Chapter 2 dream described the next “kingdom”.

Ancient Jewish Commentators And The Fourth Kingdom

Among the interpretations of the various Jewish rabbis and commentators throughout history, there exists a group that supports this position. Among the most well-known rabbis who support this view are Ibn Ezra, one of the most distinguished Jewish writers of the Middle Ages, and Rabbi Yechiel Hillel ben Altshuller, author of the famous Metzudos. It is interesting to see the opinions of these Jewish sages. According to Ibn Ezra:

Rome is included in the third kingdom as relatives of the Greeks. The Romans are considered to be the Kittim mentioned in Numbers 24:24. In Genesis 10:4, Kittim are the sons of Yavan (Greece). The fourth kingdom according to Ibn Ezra, is the Arab kingdom. – “Daniel A New Translation with Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources”, Mesorah Publications (Brooklyn, New York 1969), p. 104

Ibn Ezra, argues that while there are reasons to understand why Rome is not mentioned in the dream, the complete omission of the mighty and extensive Arab kingdom is simply too big of an oversight that needs to be explained by those who hold to the Roman interpretation.

It Will Crush And Break All The Others

But beyond the contextual reasons to reject the inclusion of the Roman Empire in the Book of Daniel, there are other significant problems with the traditional Roman view. Perhaps the most obvious flaw in seeing the fourth kingdom as the Roman Empire is the single description used to define this kingdom in Daniel 2. This description reads as follows:

There will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. —Daniel 2:40

So the question is: Did Rome crush or even conquer all of the other empires? Did Rome crush the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian and the Greek Empires? The clear answer is no, it did not. In fact, it is surprising that this fact has been overlooked for so long. The fourth empire would crush and break all three of the other empires. Yet history shows that Rome in fact never conquered the Persian Empire. It never conquered any of the various capital cities of the Medo-Persian Empire. And as we discussed above, the Roman Empire only controlled the ancient city of Babylon for less than one year. While Rome did indeed conquer all of Western Europe and the region surrounding the Mediterranean, it could never maintain any significant control of the region to the east of the Euphrates. The guerrilla warfare used by tribal peoples of Parthia simply proved to be too much for the Roman soldiers to withstand. Also, it should be pointed out that while the Roman Empire did conquer the Greek Empire, it was in fact the Hellenistic/Greek culture that came to dominate the Roman Empire, not the other way around. In other words, the Roman Empire may have taken control of the western regions of the Greek Empire, but it most certainly did not “crush” it, and the eastern regions of the Greek Empire were virtually untouched by Rome.

Here is a very helpful excerpt from Wikipedia’s “Roman Republic” article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic):

Greek influence on Rome

It is likely that the Romans first came in contact with Greek civilization through the Greek city-states in southern Italy and in Sicily (both of which formed Magna Graecia — “Greater Greece”). These colonies had been established as a result of Greek expansion that took place in these two areas beginning in the eighth century BC. There is a remarkable commonality between the world of classical Athens and the classical world of Magna Graecia. As proof of this, one need look no further than the Greek temples in Akragas and Silinus in Sicily and the Parthenon of Athens to see that they partake of the same style of architecture at virtually the same level of architectural refinement. Thucydides documents the substantial political and military contacts that the Greek city-states of Sicily had with Sparta and Athens during the Peloponnesian War, and how the Syracusans allied with Sparta were able to defeat the military forces of Athens as they laid siege to Syracuse.

This, inasmuch as trading, as well as the mere day to day interaction between peoples of different cultures, provided opportunities for the Romans to gain exposure to Greek culture, literature, architecture, political and philosophical ideas, religious beliefs and traditions. There was a great sharing of ideas and culture among the peoples of the Mediterranean Sea while Rome was developing into the dominant power in the area.

The Latin alphabet was certainly influenced by the Greek alphabet, and the Latin language itself contains many words of Greek origin. Latin literature was also influenced by the Greeks as well. Early Latin plays were sometimes translations of Greek plays, and different types of poetry often were modeled after their counterparts, such as Virgil's Aeneid on the Homeric Epics. It was not uncommon for wealthy Romans to send their sons to Greece for the purpose of study, most notably in Athens. This Roman passion of Hellenic culture would increase over time.

Greek and Latin became the lingua franca of the eastern half of the Mediterranean area.

Religion

The Romans worshipped a number of gods, among which the triad Jupiter, Mars, and Quirinus were pre-eminent. Later this triad was supplanted by the Capitoline Triad, Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva. Religious ceremonies on behalf of the state were delegated to a strict system of priestly offices under the governance of the College of Pontiffs, with at its head the Pontifex maximus was the most important. Flamens took care of the cults of various gods, while augurs were trusted with taking the auspices. The Rex Sacrorum, or "sacrificial king" took on the religious responsibilities of the deposed kings.

From the earliest days of the Republic, foreign gods were imported, especially from Greece, which had a great cultural influence on the Romans. In addition, the Romans connected some of their indigenous deities with Greek gods and goddesses.

So we can see that, even though there was a transfer of power to the Italian peninsula, Rome most certainly did not “crush” Greek civilization but in fact adopted it, no less. Therefore Rome would seem to be most properly viewed as an extension of the Alexandrian Empire.

So while the Roman Empire did not fulfill the necessary requirements to be considered as the fourth empire of Daniel 2, there nevertheless was an empire that did meet these requirements: The Islamic/Ottoman Empire. Islam conquered all of the previous three empires—Babylon, Persia and Greece. It also conquered the entire eastern Byzantine Roman Empire as well, which, by the time that happened in 1453 AD, was all that remained of the Roman Empire. And in the case of the Islamic Caliphate, “crush” is most certainly an appropriate description for what occurs when Islam conquers any region. Babylon lost both its language and its religion. Persia also lost its religion while its alphabet was Arabicized. Other nations like Egypt also lost their ancient languages. The Hellenized lands to the west of Babylon, once occupied by the Greek and Roman Empires, were completely “crushed” by the Islamic influence. In fact, it would require volumes to recount all of the history, culture and religious influence that has nearly been erased by over a millennium of Islamic dominance over these regions. So after a brief look at the history of this region, it is impossible to say that the Roman Empire crushed and broke all of the other empires, yet the various manifestations of Islamic Empire did precisely this.

The Kingdom Will Be “Mixed”

But just in case there remains any doubt as to the nature of the final empire, the Divine author of the Book of Daniel was kind enough give us another very direct clue only three verses later in verse 43:

“And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.” —Daniel 2:43

Take note of the words “mixed” and “combine”. They are actually the same words translated differently. What is amazing about this seemingly irrelevant word translated as “combined”, “mixture” or “mixed” is that in Aramaic (the original language of much of the Book of Daniel), the word is actually “arab”. And thus this passage quite literally reads:

“And just as you saw the iron mixed (arab) with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture (arab) and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes (arab) with clay.”
—Daniel 2:43 (NIV)

Click HERE (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Dan&chapter=2&verse=43&version=KJV#43) to see the Aramaic for yourself.

This form of word-play-hint directing us to the type of people that would make up the final Antichrist Empire is not without precedent in the Book of Daniel. Another quite famous example of word-play relating to a particular people group that would conquer Babylon also occurs in chapter 5. There, Belshazzar, the final Babylonian king was told via the divine handwriting on the wall that his empire would be divided (peres) to the Medes and the Persians (Aramaic: Paras). Reading the word peres (meaning divided), Daniel then declared to King Belshazzar:

“‘Peres’—your kingdom has been divided and given over to the Medes and Persians.” —Daniel 5:28

This event occurred decades after Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the statue. It is not hard to imagine that even as God hinted to the last Babylonian King concerning the people that were about to conquer Babylon, so also might the Lord have hinted to Nebuchadnezzar in his dream that the Arabs would be the source of the last Empire that would conquer Babylon.

In the ancient near-eastern world, Arabs were specifically viewed as a mixed people. Because the various descendants of Ishmael and Esau had so intermarried among the various desert tribes, they had actually become known as “the mixed ones”. In the Book of Nehemiah, after the Book of the Law was discovered in the Temple, all of the people gathered together to hear the word of the Lord:

“On that day the Book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people and there it was found written that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever be admitted into the assembly of God, because they had not met the Israelites with food and water but had hired Balaam to call a curse down on them. (Our God, however, turned the curse into a blessing.) When the people heard this law, they excluded from Israel all who were of foreign descent.” —Nehemiah 13:1-3

After reading the Law, the Jews realized that it was prohibited to have taken the peoples from the surrounding nations for their wives. Specifically mentioned are the Ammonites and the Moabites. These were both descendants of Esau who lived in what is today the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The King James Version more accurately translates the phrase “all who were of foreign descent” as “the mixed multitude”. Again here, as in Daniel, this specific phrase “mixed multitude” in the Hebrew is ereb or ay’-reb. Again, Aramaic was the language that was spoken by the Jews at the time of Nehemiah. As such, this word was the same “arab” as in the Daniel example above. So the verse was essentially saying, “When the people heard this law, they excluded from Israel all who were of Arab descent.” The point in all of this is that in the ancient near east, the word mixed and arab were essentially synonymous. The very name Arab in its etymological origins refers to the mixed people that lived primarily to the east of Israel.

A Kingdom Divided

But beyond being an Arab Empire, the last-days empire is also said to be a divided (peleg) empire. The division of course that this passage speaks of is truly an appropriate description of the Islamic world as it has existed from its earliest days until modern times with its various sectarian divisions.

“In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron it will be a divided kingdom.”
—Daniel 2:41

One need only look to modern Iraq to observe how divided the Islamic world truly is. The Sunni/Shiite clash would be an excellent candidate for the iron vs. the clay.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 19th 2008, 07:38 AM
In addition, with Europe being overrun by Islam, I don't see how anybody could seriously consider Europe to be a serious contender for world domination anytime in the near future. They are well down the road to cow-towing to the Middle East.

Roelof
Mar 19th 2008, 03:17 PM
With almost 500 million citizens the EU generates an estimated 31 % share of the world’s nominal GDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product) (€11.8 / US$ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US%24)16.6 trillion) in 2007.

They are already a world economical player !!!

Literalist-Luke
Mar 19th 2008, 04:47 PM
Certainly, but with the European population steadily becoming more Islamic everyday, they will eventually consider themselves beholden to the coming Caliphate, finally climaxing with the arrival of the "Mahdi"/Antichrist.

Did you know that Islam will be Europe's most dominant religion in less than 30 years based on current trends? (Conversion rate + birth rate) Islam will also be the world's most populous religion, supplanting Christianity for the first time ever, in only 40 years. We have an imminent crisis on our hands, and Europe is only a part of it.

vinsight4u8
Mar 19th 2008, 06:48 PM
I see the crisis coming soon is - the Palestinains will fall and move us along further in Daniel 11.

Daniel 11:14

the robbers of thy people>>>> fall

all before 2010

Jerome1
Mar 19th 2008, 08:34 PM
Certainly, but with the European population steadily becoming more Islamic everyday, they will eventually consider themselves beholden to the coming Caliphate, finally climaxing with the arrival of the "Mahdi"/Antichrist.

Did you know that Islam will be Europe's most dominant religion in less than 30 years based on current trends? (Conversion rate + birth rate) Islam will also be the world's most populous religion, supplanting Christianity for the first time ever, in only 40 years. We have an imminent crisis on our hands, and Europe is only a part of it.

Have you got some sources that state Islam will be Europes most dominant religion in thirty years?

After doing some research of projected demographics in Europe, one study indicates that only 25% of Europeans will be Muslim by 2100.

It also states that Muslim birth rates are three times higher than non-Muslim, but they would still only make up 20% of the population by 2050.


In addition, with Europe being overrun by Islam, I don't see how anybody could seriously consider Europe to be a serious contender for world domination anytime in the near future. They are well down the road to cow-towing to the Middle East.

Isn't the current financial crisis in the United States because the dollar is becoming weaker and weaker against the Euro?

The EU has a bigger GDP than the United States, and is it's biggest trading partner, as well as China and Indias biggest trading partner.

Britain is also in the midst of a financial crisis, i'm not an economist, but not adopting the Euro might have something to do with it.

How is Europe well down the road of cow-towing to the Middle East?

Also another few questions for you?

Why does Peter refer to Rome(The centre of the Roman Empire) as Babylon in 1Peter5:13?

Why do scholars believe John made a numerical reference to Nero(A Roman Emperor) in Revealtion13:8?

Do you think the legs in Nebuchadnezzar's dream could describe the separation of the Roman Empire between the Eastern and Western Empires?

Roelof
Apr 3rd 2008, 04:49 AM
If we accept that the European Union is the Revived Roman Empire, what might be the next major event in our history?

Blessed777
Apr 3rd 2008, 05:55 AM
A revived Roman Empire cannot be the Antichrist.

The Bible is very specific and even says it is NOT Rome.


Rev 17:9-11
9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.



The seven kings are the seven empires that ruled the promised land in order of succession.

1st - Egypt
2nd -Assyria
3rd - Babylon
4th - Persia
5th - Greece (The 5 that have fallen before the text was written)
6th - Rome ---the one that is---(the ruling empire over Israel when the text was written)
7th - Not yet come (at the time the text was written)

8th - Beast

Look what the verse says: And the beast that was, and is not

Remember: seven kings: five are fallen, and one is

The "one is" this is Rome. The Bible says the beast "was" meaning he came from the five that have fallen. But then it goes on to say the beast "is not".

If it "is not" then it cannot come from Rome, because Rome "is".

But it can come from all or any of the previous five. Or even the 7th because the beast: is of the seven. But the 6th (Rome) has been excluded from the list.

If Rome were included to be the beast it would have said: "the beast that was and is" but it does not say that, is says "the beast that was and is not".

Therefore the Beast cannot come from Rome, and the notion of a Revived Roman Empire is a false one.







I know people try to justify this verse and make it Rome by saying the mountains and kings are Roman emperors, but that just doesn't fit since there were way more that 5 before this was written and at least 50 after. To say that is really a stretch of Scripture to make it fit the evidence rather than have the Scripture speak for itself. Not to mention make the Revelation have had already happened.

Roelof
Apr 3rd 2008, 08:38 AM
I based my statement of a Revived Roman Empire on the following Study Bible:

Revelation 13 (KJV Bible Commentary)

13:3. His deadly wound was healed. Rome did suffer political decline. The city of Rome fell in a.d. 476, and to this hour the Roman Empire has ceased to exist. But it will rise again, as this chapter reveals. Since World War II and Churchill’s statement concerning the United States of Europe {European Union}, there have been strong currents to build a confederation of nations in Europe as a sort of buffer between the superpowers of the East and West. Ten kingdoms will arise in western Europe (cf. 17:12). The ancient Roman Empire never existed in this form. It will represent a strong attempt to centralize political and economic power (17:13).

Desire
Apr 3rd 2008, 03:28 PM
AMERICA IN THE SIGHT OF GOD: NEW ISRAEL OR NEW ROME?”
Go to this link http://pastorrandyshupe.com/classics-newsletters.php and scroll down to the 4th newsletter about America being the New Rome.

Rome was a Democracy based on a two party system. The Optimates and the Populares fought each other the same way America's Democrats and Republican fight each other. The Roman Tribune and his Senate/ America's President and his congress. All the architecture in Washington D.C. is Roman. Rome's national emblem was the eagle same as America. Rome practiced captitalism and had a sordid history of slavery same as America. Romans practiced abortion and loved R rated and violet entertainment. Rome was known for the colocium America is known for it's many arenas and stadiums.

Blessed777
Apr 3rd 2008, 04:54 PM
As good as any of those sound it does not fit the Bible.

You guys are forgetting that the Beast and his empire must come from the area that was conquered by Alexander the Great as was written in Daniel chapter 8. This area did NOT include Western Europe or America.

Jerome1
Apr 3rd 2008, 05:19 PM
AMERICA IN THE SIGHT OF GOD: NEW ISRAEL OR NEW ROME?”
Go to this link http://pastorrandyshupe.com/classics-newsletters.php and scroll down to the 4th newsletter about America being the New Rome.

Rome was a Democracy based on a two party system. The Optimates and the Populares fought each other the same way America's Democrats and Republican fight each other.

Rome spilt into two separate empires each with their own Emperors. How was Rome a democracy, did everyone have a say in who was elected to the Roman government?


The Roman Tribune and his Senate/ America's President and his congress. All the architecture in Washington D.C. is Roman. Rome's national emblem was the eagle same as America.

A double headed eagle was the emblem of the Byzantine Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire. Russia and many others also this emblem.


Rome practiced captitalism and had a sordid history of slavery same as America. Romans practiced abortion and loved R rated and violet entertainment. Rome was known for the colocium America is known for it's many arenas and stadiums.

Pretty much every country has a history of slavery. Lots of countries practice abortion, and many of them carry out a greater number of abortions than the United States. Colocium? Do you mean coliseums? Are you trying to compare ancient Rome to America because they both had/have coliseums/stadiums? That is a spurious connection if ever i have heard one. Pretty much every developed country has a number of stadiums. I'm sure many have a greater number than America if you count land mass to stadium ratio.

wombat
Apr 23rd 2008, 09:43 PM
Is the European Union the Revived Roman Empire of Rev. 13.3?

Hi! Here's something to keep a watch on in regards to the revived Roman empire issue. This year in July, the Mediterranean Union will be launched, which is going to be a "special project" of the EU. This Mediterranean Union will encompass northern Africa, Israel and its neighbors along the Mediterranean, and the European nations that surround the Mediterranean. As I have been looking at a map of the old Roman Empire's boundaries, this Mediterranean Union (if all these nations actually do join it) sure fits the land area better as a description of a "revived" Roman empire than just the EU in itself. One thing to watch out for as this gets going is what the numbers look like. Revelation 13:1-2 says that the beast rising from the sea has 7 heads and 10 horns with 10 crowns. Will there possibly be 7 European nations and 10 north African/Middle Eastern nations in its core (or vise versa)? I heard one report at the beginning of the year that there were 7 European states planned to be in the Mediterranean Union, but of course that remains to be seen, particularly as the make-up of the original plan has been changed over the months since then. Also notice that the beast looks like a leopard with a lion's mouth and a bear's feet. These animals are similar depictions to the beasts that Daniel describes in Daniel 7 (a lion to represent Babylon, a bear to represent Medo-Persia, and a leopard to represent Greece), which very much sounds to me like the revived Roman empire will incorporate both European and Middle Eastern territories. Revelations 13:3 says that one of the beast's heads will seem to be wounded beyond recovery, but the fatal wound is healed and causes the world to marvel. It may be that the seven heads and ten horns are actually seven leaders of nations that will comprise the revived Roman empire, rather than the nations themselves, in which case it is possible that this verse refers to an assassination attempt against the antiChrist, who will come back to life (or appear to) by Satan's power. I'll be watching the Mediterranean Union closely to see what comes of all of this!

White Spider
Apr 24th 2008, 12:30 AM
Ten is an all inclusive, universal number indicating that this includes all earthly rulers; i.e. parable of ten virgins.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. - Revelation 17:12

Just wanted to clear that up for you all, we are not looking for ten countries in a Union . . .

Roelof
Apr 24th 2008, 07:42 AM
Hi! Here's something to keep a watch on in regards to the revived Roman empire issue. This year in July, the Mediterranean Union will be launched, which is going to be a "special project" of the EU. This Mediterranean Union will encompass northern Africa, Israel and its neighbors along the Mediterranean, and the European nations that surround the Mediterranean.

wombat

Please keep us informed.

I know Rome will play a major role in the End of End Times.

ross3421
Apr 24th 2008, 12:00 PM
The 10 horns of the first beast and the two horns of the second combined are the houses of Israel and represent the 144,000 which at the end align themselves with the beast but then God pricks there heart and they go to destroy her.

resbmc
Apr 24th 2008, 12:33 PM
food for thought, Rome will probably be head of the common market nation, one economical region, but since the 1960's the world has been broken into 10 geographic or economic regions since CFR, conference on foriegn relations to today in the, The Club of Rome. Put the, The Club of Rome, into google. It is simular to the WTO but under the wire and will probably the the 10 ecomomic regions of the world.

White Spider
Apr 25th 2008, 07:16 PM
The 10 horns of the first beast and the two horns of the second combined are the houses of Israel and represent the 144,000 which at the end align themselves with the beast but then God pricks there heart and they go to destroy her.

And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. - Daniel 7:24

There are now 13 with that on with that diverse one . . . so now explain better your theory please, it's not working for me.

White Spider
Apr 25th 2008, 07:23 PM
May want to look into the "South Amreican Union of Nations" or perhaps the "South Asian Union" or even the "Central Asian Union" and then there is the "North American Union"

Now there's four Unions there, those with the "Mediterranean Union," the "European Union," the "African Union"

That's 7 so far either in existance or in the making . . . maybe the ten kings will be those in control of perhaps 10 Unions one day . . .

ross3421
Apr 25th 2008, 08:38 PM
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. - Daniel 7:24

There are now 13 with that on with that diverse one . . . so now explain better your theory please, it's not working for me.

The three which fell cannot be 3 of the 10 as we see all 10 intact until Christ comes. The three which fell have to be 3 of the first 4 beasts (lion, bear, leopard) thus leaving the 4th beast (little horn) to rule.

Da 7:12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Christ is also a "little horn" out of the 12 horns (Israel). Also Christ is the 8th candlestick out of the 7 (churches).

Mark

White Spider
Apr 25th 2008, 08:47 PM
Then if the three previous beasts are the three horns wouldn't there have to be 7 other beasts representing the 7 other horns?

ross3421
Apr 25th 2008, 10:39 PM
Then if the three previous beasts are the three horns wouldn't there have to be 7 other beasts representing the 7 other horns?

No. Horns, heads, kings are all synonymous.

4th kingdom

4 kings yet to rule. They are the kings of the earth each ruling 1/4 in the kingdom of Satan.

Lion
Bear
Leopard
Beast

These 4 kings have a total of 7 heads.

Lion - Head 1
Bear - Head 2
Leopard - Heads 3,4,5,6
Beast - Head 7

The beast is composed of 10 horns in which a little horn comes forth.


Mark

White Spider
Apr 25th 2008, 10:51 PM
But is not that 4th beast the same beast with the ten horns in Revelation? I thought the fourth beast had seven heads, not just one that was the seventh.

So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. - Revelation 17:3

vinsight4u8
Apr 26th 2008, 01:35 AM
There are actually two fourth beasts being shown in Daniel 7.
Why?
Because Daniel had visions.
The first vision time occurs - and he saw four great beasts. diverse from one another
The second vision begins - he saw a fourth beast - diverse from the others

White Spider
Apr 26th 2008, 05:51 AM
There are actually two fourth beasts being shown in Daniel 7.
Why?
Because Daniel had visions.
The first vision time occurs - and he saw four great beasts. diverse from one another
The second vision begins - he saw a fourth beast - diverse from the others

There's two visions in Daniel 7? Now I gotta go back and read it again, then probably reread it 2 or 3 more times . . . I thought it was just one vision :cool:

vinsight4u8
Apr 26th 2008, 09:01 AM
There's two visions in Daniel 7? Now I gotta go back and read it again, then probably reread it 2 or 3 more times . . . I thought it was just one vision :cool:

Verse 1
"in the first year of Belshazzar...Daniel had a dream, and visions...told the sum..."

"visions"
"told the sum"

verse 2
"...I saw in my vision...."
"vision"
four great beasts
........................Daniel then continues describing this vision experience and stops at the time of the fourth beast. Daniel never told us a bit as to the fourth beast for the first vision time. All we know is that all of these beasts are diverse from each other.

v7
"After this I saw in the night visions..."
"visions"
Daniel will now begin to tell us about his second vision experience of that night.
It has a fourth beast - diverse from all of the beasts that were in the first vision.
So we now have two fourth beasts.

v13
"I saw in the night visions..."
"visions"
Daniel's third vision of that night.
one like the Son of man gets seen
coming with the clouds of heaven

vinsight4u8
Apr 26th 2008, 09:05 AM
What is so significant as to several visions being shown in Daniel 7?
Daniel saw two diverse from each other fourth beasts.
So- then did he also see the mouthy little horn twice?
yes

White Spider
Apr 26th 2008, 07:18 PM
What is so significant as to several visions being shown in Daniel 7?
Daniel saw two diverse from each other fourth beasts.
So- then did he also see the mouthy little horn twice?
yes

I don't see that, if I see two visions at all the first only has three beasts . . . then the next vision he sees a beast he considers the fourth different from all the former beasts.

Maybe if you put Daniel Chapter 7 in a post and then in a different color showed where the different visions are etc. I'll see it a little better. Thanks :)

Roelof
Apr 27th 2008, 03:47 AM
I appreciate all the post here, I am learning a lot.

vinsight4u8
Apr 27th 2008, 02:49 PM
Daniel saw one vision that consisted of four diverse beasts. But - Daniel stopped telling us about them once he was done with the third beast description.
Why?
Because his second vision also had a fourth beast. This time is had ten horns.

So we can conclude that the fourth beast of the first vision that night also had a number of horns.

Keep reading on down and we find that Daniel will give us two lengths of times and stories as to how long he saw the little with great words.
One of these actually is the fourth beast story for the first vision of that night.

wombat
May 1st 2008, 01:50 PM
Hi! Here's something to keep a watch on in regards to the revived Roman empire issue. This year in July, the Mediterranean Union will be launched, which is going to be a "special project" of the EU. This Mediterranean Union will encompass northern Africa, Israel and its neighbors along the Mediterranean, and the European nations that surround the Mediterranean. As I have been looking at a map of the old Roman Empire's boundaries, this Mediterranean Union (if all these nations actually do join it) sure fits the land area better as a description of a "revived" Roman empire than just the EU in itself. One thing to watch out for as this gets going is what the numbers look like. Revelation 13:1-2 says that the beast rising from the sea has 7 heads and 10 horns with 10 crowns. Will there possibly be 7 European nations and 10 north African/Middle Eastern nations in its core (or vise versa)? I heard one report at the beginning of the year that there were 7 European states planned to be in the Mediterranean Union, but of course that remains to be seen, particularly as the make-up of the original plan has been changed over the months since then. Also notice that the beast looks like a leopard with a lion's mouth and a bear's feet. These animals are similar depictions to the beasts that Daniel describes in Daniel 7 (a lion to represent Babylon, a bear to represent Medo-Persia, and a leopard to represent Greece), which very much sounds to me like the revived Roman empire will incorporate both European and Middle Eastern territories. Revelations 13:3 says that one of the beast's heads will seem to be wounded beyond recovery, but the fatal wound is healed and causes the world to marvel. It may be that the seven heads and ten horns are actually seven leaders of nations that will comprise the revived Roman empire, rather than the nations themselves, in which case it is possible that this verse refers to an assassination attempt against the antiChrist, who will come back to life (or appear to) by Satan's power. I'll be watching the Mediterranean Union closely to see what comes of all of this!
Wow! It feels weird to quote myself here, but I wanted to reference my previous post so it wouldn't be hard to find. I have some breaking news for you that I just found in an article dated April 30, 2008, regarding the Mediterranean Union. When I read it, I had to praise God because I see it as a very likely coming fulfillment of a Daniel prophecy. The article titled "Mediterranean Union Will Change the World: Sarkozy" was on the Thaindian News site, and it says that the Mediterranean Union will have two co-presidents. One will be from the north (Europe), while the other will be from the south (North Africa/possibly Middle East). Daniel 11:21-44 speaks of the King of the North and the King of the South, and it appears to me that the King of the North is the antiChrist in this reference. I know that there are some who don't agree to that interpretation, but that is my personal theory. Could it be possible that whomever obtains the co-presidencies (whether the first ones to be elected or those who succeed them later) may just turn out to be the King of the North and the King of the South that are at odds with each other even while sitting together at the conference table? I'm going to keep two eyes fixed on this development!

teddyv
May 1st 2008, 02:25 PM
Wow! It feels weird to quote myself here, but I wanted to reference my previous post so it wouldn't be hard to find. I have some breaking news for you that I just found in an article dated April 30, 2008, regarding the Mediterranean Union. When I read it, I had to praise God because I see it as a very likely coming fulfillment of a Daniel prophecy. The article titled "Mediterranean Union Will Change the World: Sarkozy" was on the Thaindian News site, and it says that the Mediterranean Union will have two co-presidents. One will be from the north (Europe), while the other will be from the south (North Africa/possibly Middle East). Daniel 11:21-44 speaks of the King of the North and the King of the South, and it appears to me that the King of the North is the antiChrist in this reference. I know that there are some who don't agree to that interpretation, but that is my personal theory. Could it be possible that whomever obtains the co-presidencies (whether the first ones to be elected or those who succeed them later) may just turn out to be the King of the North and the King of the South that are at odds with each other even while sitting together at the conference table? I'm going to keep two eyes fixed on this development!
Don't know if it's quite breaking news. The talk of this appears to be about a year old, actually. Sarkozy apparently floated this prior to his election. Reaction appears to have been mixed.

The Village Idiot
May 1st 2008, 03:14 PM
In John's Re 13 critique of power, the beast in v 3-4 receives a mortal wound in one of its seven heads. But the wound is healed, to the amazement of the people of the world, so that "they worshipped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast and they worshipped the beast, saying, 'who is like the beast, and who can fight against it.?'"

As I read it, the wounded head of the beast is the emperor Nero, who commmitted suicide with a sword (cf 13:14). This wound to the head of the beast was also a mortal wound to the beast itself (the imperial power), and it is the beast which recovers.

The allusion is to the events immediately before and after the death of Nero, in which it seemed likely that the Empire itself might disintegrate. To many of his subjects, Nero's tyranny was obvvious and hated: in his case, the true nature of the beast became more apparent than usual. Toward the end of Nero's reign, there were serious revolts in the provineces. His death was followed by the chaotic "year of the four emperors." But the imperial power recovered with the Flavian dynasty. From the brink of collapse it emerged as apparently invincible, so that, according to the vision, the whole world cried, "who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?"

The words are a parody of the celebration of God's power in the Song of Moses (Ex 15:11: "who is like you, O Lord?"). They point to the absolutizing of political and military power which was expressed in the worship of Rome and the Roman emperors. That John is mindful of this is evident from his use of a version of the Song of Moses in Re 15:3.


"Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED" (Re 15:3-4).

The eschatological worship of the Lord God by all nations is in parody with the worship of the beast's power by the whole world. It is the difference between the false authority of the beast (Re 13:4), and the true authority of the "King of the nations" (Re 15:3). It is the difference between those who entertain the "arrogance" of the beast (Re 13:5), and those who fear the Lord" (Re 15:4). It is the difference between beastly blasphemy against God (Re 13:6) and saintly blessing of God's Name (Re 15:4). It is the difference between the beast's domination of the world and opposition of God's people (Re 13:7), and the great and marvelous works of the Lord (Re 15:3).

Throughout the Revelation, John is greatly concerned to display the works of the beast and the works of God in parody. He is greatly concerned to display the city of Egypt/Babylon/Rome in parody to the eschatological city of God, which is also the conclusion to which his vision report leads.

In chapter 13, John's critique of imperial power is largely political, but it is also religious. And John's critique of the worship of power might give many Christians in the United States pause for reflection.

Of course if we wanted to follow the beast in this life, and have God in the next, we could always worship imperial/national power now, and push John's theology into the future, pretending that the beast doesn't happen until later.

quiet dove
May 1st 2008, 06:38 PM
And John's critique of the worship of power might give many Christians in the United States pause for reflection.

Of course if we wanted to follow the beast in this life, and have God in the next, we could always worship imperial/national power now, and push John's theology into the future, pretending that the beast doesn't happen until later.

Regardless of who or when the Beast was or will be, believing the Beast to be future does not equate to worshiping imperial/national power now, as you appear to be insinuating.

Christians in the US do not "worship" the power of their government. If anyone in the country believes the "power of government" is a finite-fragile thing that this fragile-finite government is ignoring Almighty God, it is the Christians!

The Village Idiot
May 1st 2008, 11:33 PM
Christians in the US do not "worship" the power of their government.

I'm not convinced. Not to say that all do, or that those who do are even aware of it. But yeah--in my opinion, all nations rest upon the foundation of political idolatry to lesser or greater extent.

Roelof
May 13th 2008, 10:31 AM
On the US 1$ is printed "In God we trust."
Is it still true of the American nation?
What about nations in the European Union?

Jerome1
May 13th 2008, 10:59 AM
On the US 1$ is printed "In God we trust."
Is it still true of the American nation?
What about nations in the European Union?

I don't think there is any reference to God in the European currency(The Euro)

I think like the American and many other currencies they may have images of present or past heads of State on their currencies. I think the Euro in different countries differ from each other to reflect that nations national identity.

With the possibility of a permanent European president and foreign minister, it is possible that any future European currency will feature their images.

The European constitution also has no menion of God, i believe various christians have lobbied for there to be a recognition of Europes christian heritage in the European constitution.

I think there is a referendum in Ireland soon regarding whether or not to accept the new European constitution(The Lisbon Treaty.) I think one of the reasons Ireland is having a referendum is because it is currently against the law in Ireland to obtain an abortion, and the new European constitution legalises abortion.

I don't know if it is an urban myth or if there is any truth in it, but i remember reading about saint Patrick and he asked God to protect Ireland from the antichrist, and God granted him that Ireland would be protected from the antichrist.

daughter
May 13th 2008, 11:00 AM
I also heard that story growing up, and I'm Irish. I certainly hope it's true!

Roelof
May 13th 2008, 01:19 PM
Jerome1

Thanks for the contribution on the EU

resbmc
May 13th 2008, 01:26 PM
the 10 kings of Euro, yes I agree with that, but that is different from the 10 kings if Rev:17:12 is different, these 10 kings have no kingdom or power yet, but are given power for one hour. I believe this hour is the same hour God will keep his people from, Jesus come down from heaven, we meet him in the air for one hour, 15 something days, have the marriage supper of the Lamb, and then come back with him.

talmidim
May 15th 2008, 02:10 PM
Shalom All, and may All of His Chosen here be Blessed,

I have read your views on this vital topic and I would like to offer some background that you might find interesting.

I spend some of my time researching the Ancient Hebrew and I am continually amazed at how deeply His Truth is woven into His language. I for one, believe that Hebrew was the original language given Adam. My reason is simple. Every name in scripture prior to the incident at the Tower of Babel is a Hebrew name, constructed according to the ancient Hebrew root word system and consistent with Ancient Hebrew letter definitions. All of those names have a definition or meaning in Hebrew. So you will understand if I am sometimes amazed at the Etymological links in various languages that point back to the Hebrew scriptures. And though I am a rank amateur, Noah Webster shared this view as do some of the most prestigious Linguists and Etymologists in history.

There is a word in Ancient Hebrew spelled Samech, Tav, Resh. It is pronounced 'sathar' or 'sether' and it is believed by many to be the origin of the word 'saturn'. In Hebrew its original definition alludes to hiding or things concealed. Please remember this association. Some have posited that it is the ancient root of the English word 'mystery'. You may ask at this point what this has to do with Rome and the End Times, but please be patient as I fully intend to connect the dots.

There is little doubt that there are spiritual forces that guide the events of nations, powers and principalities. Angels both good and evil are described as having charge over these things in scripture and engaged in a constant struggle for dominance. And the 'spirit' associated with different nations and peoples follows them throughout their generations. But we tend to see things in a secular sense and sometimes miss the all important spiritual implications. Nations are not the artificial borders that man devises, but the family divisions in scripture. And with that in mind I will proceed.

In ancient text, there is a story about Nimrod. We all know him as the rebel against the Most High that built the Tower of Babel in the area known as Babylon. I am sure that most of the readers here are familiar with his story in scripture and all of the commentary about him. But this story provides a link between Nimrod, Babylon, Rome and the spirit of rebellion.

Let's take a moment to briefly mention the scriptures concerning this man, his genealogy, actions and his reputation. Most of what we know about this man is found in Genesis 10 and 11, though he was mentioned in 1 Chronicles 1 and Micah 5. He was the grandson of Ham and son of Cush. It is worthy of note that the descendants of Ham that can be traced through ancient peoples to modern nations are now Muslim. Most if not all of these peoples (Nimrod's relatives) are the ancient and modern-day enemies of Israel. There seems to be a spirit about the sons of Ham that can be reconciled to the story of Noah's nakedness.

Nimrod was a might hunter and warrior that founded kingdoms in ancient Iraq. And ancient texts tell a story of him that includes so many violent transgressions against God, man and women that he eventually had to flee his kingdom. The reason was that his great uncle Shem sought his life because of his great sins. The story goes that Shem eventually killed Nimrod and divided his body into twelve portions and sent them into all of the nations as a warning to keep the laws of the Most High.

So far we have some scripture, some historical writings and a lot of conjecture. There is no doubt that a great deal of what I offer is only confirmed by coincidence. But not being a great believer in coincidence, I hope you are enjoying the ride. Now let return to my story for a moment.

There are a number of cities that figure prominently in eschatology. And there is some speculation about the ones built on seven hills. Jerusalem, Rome, Constantinople and Ammon are interesting because of their mention in scripture. But here is something you may not have known. The ancient name of the seven hills of Rome is 'the Mountains of Nimbrod'. And what is even more intriguing is that the ancient name of the settlement that later became Rome was called Saturnia. Now call me crazy and this all coincidence, but the foundation of Rome seems to be built on Saturnia (hiding place) in the mountains of Nimbrod. Was Rome originally the hiding place of Nimrod?

One of Nimrod's titles would have been Ba'al meaning 'Master' or 'Lord' in Chaldean. And the word for heart was 'bal' or 'val'. It is the root of valiant and Valentinius, later to become Valentine. Nimrod was know in ancient lore as a 'valiant hunter of wolves'. Shades of Romulus and Remus anyone?

The reason I mention this is simple. These stories would have been well known to the Jews of the first century. So the reference to Babylon in the revelation would have had a deeper contextual and spiritual significance to its intended audience. And the spirit that accompanied Nimrod to the foundations of Rome could just as easily spread to the eastern 'leg' of the Roman kingdom as well, whose capitol was Constantinople.

Just a little trivia with which to fan the flames of speculation.

In His Love,
Phillip

Roelof
May 15th 2008, 03:51 PM
talmidim

Thanks for your comprehensive story, I enjoyed it.

Jerome1
May 15th 2008, 07:28 PM
Thanks talmidim, i didn't know of the supposed connection to Nimrod and Rome. I will look into that when i have more time.

Rome did consist of the Eastern and Western Empires, the west's capital in Rome, and the east's in Constantinople(Present day Istanbul)

The Eastern Empire was also known as the Byzantine Empire.

The Roman Empire split into two parts east and west, which perfectly fits the description of the statue and its two legs in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

330AD Constantine made Byzantium(Constantinople) his capital.

395AD The Empire is permanently spilt into eastern and western halves.

476AD The Western Roman Empire falls.

1054AD The east/west schism occurs spilting christendom into two factions. The western church in union with the pope, and the eastern or Orthodox church.

1204 Constantinople is sacked by western crusaders.

1261 Constantinople is retaken by the Patriarch of Constantinople.

1453 The Ottomans capture Constantinople, and the last Emperor dies, bringing an end to the Roman Empire.

The Orthodox church remained strong and the role of the emperor as patron for Eastern Orthodoxy was claimed by Ivan lll, Grand Duke of Muscovy(Present day Moscow)

His grandson Ivan Vl became the first Tsar of Russia(meaning caesar). Moscow was often referred too as the third Rome and proper heir to Rome and Constantinople. Moscow is also listed as a city that has seven hills.

I believe the Russian Orthodox church under the patriarchy of Moscow accounts for more orthodox christians than any other orthodox church.

The orthodox church in Russia was greatly persecuted during the communist era. Thousands of it's priests were arrested and murdered. Some sources report that as many as 90,000+ were executed and most of their churches closed and relics destroyed.

What is also interesting about the eastern and western split in the Roman Empire, is that the French president Nicolas Sarkozy has suggested that a Mediterranean Union be set up. This is to prevent incorporating countries from North Africa, the Middle East, and the Mediterranean into the EU. They would be part of a Mediterranean Union which would cooperate with the EU.

This has been suggested because certain countries within the EU are apprehensive about letting Turkey join the EU.

If the proposal for a Mediteranean Union succeeds you will have eastern and western empires(just like the ancient Roman Empire)

The different cultures uniting(Muslims and christians) could explain the iron mixed with clay reference in the book of Daniel.

Also interesting is that when Christ is giving his messages to the churches in Asia Minor(present day Turkey). In the message to Pergamum he states:

Revelation2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Per'ga-mum write: These are the words of him who has a sharp two-edged sword: "I know where you are living, where Satan's throne is. Yet you are holding fast to my name, and you did not deny your faith in me even in the days of An'ti-pas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan lives.

(Emphasis added)

We will find out in time how the EU and the proposed Meditteranean Union will develope.

wombat
May 16th 2008, 02:13 AM
I would like to offer some background that you might find interesting.
Hey, Talmidim--this is very interesting stuff! If you ever plan to write a book (or maybe you have already?), you can bet I'd go out and buy it. Any more insights into this subject of the revived Roman empire that you can share with us?

wombat
May 16th 2008, 02:44 AM
What is also interesting about the eastern and western split in the Roman Empire, is that the French president Nicolas Sarkozy has suggested that a Mediterranean Union be set up.
Revelation2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Per'ga-mum write: These are the words of him who has a sharp two-edged sword: "I know where you are living, where Satan's throne is. Yet you are holding fast to my name, and you did not deny your faith in me even in the days of An'ti-pas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan lives. We will find out in time how the EU and the proposed Meditteranean Union will develope.
Hello, Jerome1! I am keeping my eyes on this Mediterranean Union. I understand that it is to be launched this year in July during the Bastille Day celebrations in France. It will be interesting to see which nations from North Africa and the Middle East decide to take part in the Union. I also find it interesting that the Mediterranean Union will have two co-presidents, one from Europe and one from North Africa/Middle East countries. I have a suspicion that we might be seeing not only the fulillment of a "revived Roman empire," but also a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies about the "king of the north and king of the south" (Daniel 11:21-45) which appears to be about the antiChrist and his conflicts with another world leader.

Regarding your comments about Pergamum, I find this very interesting. I have read this passage in Revelation many a-time, but that particular aspect never struck a bell in my head before. Do you know of any related Bible prophecies that might shed more light on this area being Satan's throne or that give us clues about what will be happening in this region during the end times?

talmidim
May 16th 2008, 08:05 AM
Just as an afterthought, does anyone here think that the evil one's throne is or has been anywhere else? For instance, who is the prince of Persia and what is the proximity to Pergamos? (And yes, this is a loaded question)

About Pergamos - it was a city given over to pagan worship, as where many in Asia Minor. But on the hill overlooking the 'suburbs' if you will, there were three structures that seemed the manifestation of the unholy trinity, for there was the temple of Athena (Astarte, Ishtar, etc.), a temple dedicated toOctavius Caesar where Caesar-worship flourished and a magnificent altar dedicated to Zeus (the so called 'chief' of the gods).

There are many different names and attributes associated with these structures and their 'gods'. For instance this excerpt from http://latter-rain.com/escha/pergam.htm

Pergamum was the famous site of the temple to Aesculapius, the Greek God of healing supposed to be the founder of medical science and immortalized in the sky as the constellation Ophiuchus. The city became the seat of Babylonian sun worship, a noble center of idolatry and demon controlled religions with splendid temples to Nature. People from all over the Roman empire came to seek healing in this pagan temple and the shrine area was inhabited by thousands of harmless snakes. On the hills of Acropolis stood resplendent buildings, statuary, palaces and the great library as well as the temples and an altar of "Zeus the Savior." Medicine and science was worshiped here and the symbol of their worship was the serpent. The snake was carried down into our own day with a staff entwined with serpents called the caduceus, still using the snake as a symbol for the medical arts; Aesculapius is depicted holding the caduceus in his hand.

I wonder how much and how far did the OT stories spread during the reign of Solomon? But regardless of how these structure, 'gods' and stories are remembered, I can certainly see John, pointing an indignant and accusatory finger at those structures and declaring them the 'Throne of Satan'. And I wonder how often the literal and figurative meet in scripture. Perhaps more often than we allow...

Jerome1
May 17th 2008, 03:54 PM
Hello, Jerome1! I am keeping my eyes on this Mediterranean Union. I understand that it is to be launched this year in July during the Bastille Day celebrations in France. It will be interesting to see which nations from North Africa and the Middle East decide to take part in the Union. I also find it interesting that the Mediterranean Union will have two co-presidents, one from Europe and one from North Africa/Middle East countries. I have a suspicion that we might be seeing not only the fulillment of a "revived Roman empire," but also a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies about the "king of the north and king of the south" (Daniel 11:21-45) which appears to be about the antiChrist and his conflicts with another world leader.

What is also interesting about the east and west schism and their conflicting empires, is that the western emperors often seen themselves as a continuation of the ancient Roman Emperors or Kaiser(Caesar). The Eastern Tzars(Caesars) often considered themselves to be a continuation of the Byzantine Emperors.

We have seen many conflicts between both empires namely the two world wars, and the Napoleonic, Crimean wars etc etc...

Could a new world war be started by the EU and a future Mediteranean confederate which may include Russia or other countries. We will find out in time. Russia seems to be threatened by some of it's neighbours wanting to join the EU, including the Ukraine and Georgia.

This could be the two kings of the north and south described in Daniel.


Regarding your comments about Pergamum, I find this very interesting. I have read this passage in Revelation many a-time, but that particular aspect never struck a bell in my head before. Do you know of any related Bible prophecies that might shed more light on this area being Satan's throne or that give us clues about what will be happening in this region during the end times?

As talmidim has stated it was known for it's sacrifices to the pagan Roman Emperors. This could also be in reference to a future antichrist and the desolation sacrilege.

Regarding the reference to Gog and Magog, any genealogy i have read usually refers to the people of eastern and western Europe including the Turks(some also includes the Chinese).