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wundbread
Feb 18th 2008, 08:48 PM
I am currently hold a post-trib rapture / classic pre-millennial viewpoint, but am looking for answers from those with a pre-tribulation rapture point of view.

There are several passages in Revelation that I find difficult to explain from a pre-trib standpoint. How to you reconcile these apparent difficulties?

One of the classic proof texts for pre-tribulation rapture is the letter to the church of Philadelphia, particularly Revelation 3:10.

'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
(Revelation 3:10 NASB)

This is taken to mean that faithful believers will be raptured prior to the judgments detailed in the book of Revelation. However I find this difficult to reconcile with the letter to Smyrna, the only other church which is only commended and not rebuked.


"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
(Revelation 2:8-11 NASB)

In this passage it is clear that they will be martyred in the tribulation rather than taken out of it. Because of the narrow context of the letters to the churches of Asia minor I find it difficult to interpret this letter as only for the historical believers of the church in Smyrna while interpreting the letter to the church of Philadelphia as a for all believers. It seems to me both letters must be either only for the particular historical church as faithful believers cannot be martyred in the tribulation and raptured prior to the tribulation.

Opinions?

vinsight4u8
Feb 18th 2008, 10:02 PM
Rev. 19 shows all the saints coming with the Lord and only those that didn't yet fight the beast will take him on and win, then both groups will take their seats and reign with the Word of God.


Rev. 22:12 shows that Christ will come with His reward and reward time is shown announced when the 7th trumpet begins in Rev. 11:18. The 7th trumpet is then on hold during it as John sees the sealed book at the placed where the 24 elders that sat cast off their crowns.


Rev. 4 ends - 7th trumpet began
/so bring in Rev. 11:18

skypair
Feb 18th 2008, 10:36 PM
I am currently hold a post-trib rapture / classic pre-millennial viewpoint, but am looking for answers from those with a pre-tribulation rapture point of view.

One of the classic proof texts for pre-tribulation rapture is the letter to the church of Philadelphia, particularly Revelation 3:10.

'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
(Revelation 3:10 NASB)
...

In this passage it is clear that they will be martyred in the tribulation rather than taken out of it. Because of the narrow context of the letters to the churches of Asia minor I find it difficult to interpret this letter as only for the historical believers of the church in Smyrna while interpreting the letter to the church of Philadelphia as a for all believers. It seems to me both letters must be either only for the particular historical church as faithful believers cannot be martyred in the tribulation and raptured prior to the tribulation? My first thought is that it is NOT only Philadelphia that gets raptured even though they are the ones to whom it os promised. All believer who have that character of Philadelphia in that they defend the truth take part in Philadelphia's promise.

Secondly, I want you to study the "rewards" that Jesus promises each of the churches. For Smyrna "I will give you a crown of life." Who are the only saints in the Bible who get crowns? THE RAPTURED CHURCH!!!

Thirdly, the churches in Rev are a perfect match for the 5 wise/5 foolish virgins in Mt 15. Five of these churches, all or in part, will be raptured; 5, all or in part will be left behind. I know -- there's more virgins than churches, right? That's because ALL of 2 churches will be raptured and ALL of 2 churches (Thyatira and Laodicea) will be left behind (none of them are believers!).

There's a lot more I could tell you but I don't want to be "wasting my breath." Are you "in" or "out?"

skypair

vinsight4u8
Feb 18th 2008, 10:42 PM
I will keep thee - as in ek - meaning out while within.

protection during the tribulation
guarded

the Philadelphia church is those that kept His word and didn't deny His name
it has little strength
(seems not many people in it)

skypair
Feb 18th 2008, 10:47 PM
Rev. 19 shows all the saints coming with the Lord and only those that didn't yet fight the beast will take him on and win, then both groups will take their seats and reign with the Word of God. This is very confusing. Perhaps you could elaborate.


Rev. 22:12 shows that Christ will come with His reward and reward time is shown announced when the 7th trumpet begins in Rev. 11:18. The 7th trumpet is then on hold during it as John sees the sealed book at the placed where the 24 elders that sat cast off their crowns. Rev 22:12 is what is called a "benediction." It IS descriptive of His 2 comings -- one for "them that are His" (1Cor 15:23, the church at the rapture) and one to the earth for the OT saints (Mt 24:31, Mt 25:14-46). In the first, the rewards are at the Bema (1Cor 3:14, 2Cor 5:10), the latter at the earthly scene (Rev 20:4, Dan 12:1, Mt 25:14-46).

Rev 11 is, like I said, not chronological but a "broad brush" description of the entire 7 year tribulation. The only event in Rev 11 that is chronologically correct is the death and rapture of the 2 witnesses.

skypair

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 12:57 AM
Let's break apart Rev. 11.
Do you agree that it begins and continues clear till verse 15 as an angel speaking to John?
i.e - to say this
John is seeing nothing but the angel speaking and the temple (of the future) that he is to measure (as is done when a holy item is made).

KJV
Rev. 11
"And there was given me a reed...measure the temple of God..."
as in similar to the days of Ezekiel when he saw a guy with a reed and it was to measure the pattern of a future temple
Ezekiel 40-43:12
measure the pattern
shew the house to the house of Israel

Rev. 11
the angel stood saying,

See how even still in verse 10 the angel is speaking of future events, yet John has not see any of it as to - the 42 months?
John only measured a temple in Jerusalem, leaving out the court area - as it will be given unto the Gentiles.

The angel has told John about the two witnesses, but John didn't see them, nothing in relation to them or the beast killing them. John is only being given information, in story form, by the angel.

the angel is speaking
verse 10
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry..."

shall rejoice
-See this shows that John is only writing down what the angel says to him, not as in I saw this or that take place?

At verse 15, John begins to write again as to what he is then seeing and hearing.

Not as in shall fall down, but the four and twenty elders which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces..."
An event John has viewed.

The temple is then seen soon to open in heaven.
The ark is seen - I say to show mercy time.
God will now have mercy on Israel and show His face.

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 01:12 AM
The two witnesses are not actually killed, nor raptured in chapter 11 as you may think. The angel told John about them via a story....and then let John understand that they won't be rising till the great earthquake happens.

Do you see any great earthquake in Rev. 11 that John actually beheld?
I don't.

We know that the earthquake hour is the same hour as the after three days and an half. John has been told this by the angel. The angel that was telling him of future events, yet when does John actually behold the earthquake hour?
6th seal

So place the resurrection of the two witnesses here.
all of the resurrection of the just =7th trumpet
The 7th trumpet actually sounds in the 6th seal.

The 24 elders will only fall down from a seated postion one time.
So move Rev: 11:16 into the end of the timing of Rev. 4.

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 01:38 AM
I wrote to you about Rev. 19 but I still don't see it posted yet. Basically, more than one army comes from heaven after the marriage time. Only one army will take down the beast though. The tribulation martyrs had alreadly gained the victory so they don't need to fight. The beheaded martyrs of the tribulation already gained victory over the beast (man of sin) so they are listed only as lived and reigned. They aren't just living after Armageddon, they are with the other army that comes from heaven right after the marriage time in Rev. 19.

wundbread
Feb 19th 2008, 04:10 AM
My first thought is that it is NOT only Philadelphia that gets raptured even though they are the ones to whom it os promised. All believer who have that character of Philadelphia in that they defend the truth take part in Philadelphia's promise.

Secondly, I want you to study the "rewards" that Jesus promises each of the churches. For Smyrna "I will give you a crown of life." Who are the only saints in the Bible who get crowns? THE RAPTURED CHURCH!!!

Thirdly, the churches in Rev are a perfect match for the 5 wise/5 foolish virgins in Mt 15. Five of these churches, all or in part, will be raptured; 5, all or in part will be left behind. I know -- there's more virgins than churches, right? That's because ALL of 2 churches will be raptured and ALL of 2 churches (Thyatira and Laodicea) will be left behind (none of them are believers!).

There's a lot more I could tell you but I don't want to be "wasting my breath." Are you "in" or "out?"

skypair

Ok, so you are saying that the church in Symrna are raptured because they are given the crown life. How do you reconcile this with Jesus' prophecy that they will, "have tribulation for ten days." Also the reward of the crown of life is promised in context to their being faithful unto death (implying that they will die). Also it is promised that they who overcome will not be hurt at all by the second death. Implying (or at very least allowing) that they may be harmed by the first death.

It seems your suggestion the ten virgins in Matthew 25 as being parallel to the letters to the churches in Asia seems primarily allegorical. What in the text specifically leads you to believe they are talking about the same thing?

To all: Let's try to keep the discussion centered on the texts in question (Rev 2-3). It is too easy to become overwhelmed if we try to address the entire body of scriptures at once.

Diggindeeper
Feb 19th 2008, 05:13 AM
I'll be watching this thread, because speaking from my own experience, it was only, ONLY when my eyes were opened to the fact that there is no secret rapture in scripture, that I could then see clearly the rapture only happens at the one and only 2nd coming of Christ Jesus! At the last trump...

If your observation turns out to be true, then I sure hope we both belong to that church of Philadelphia!!!

jeffweeder
Feb 19th 2008, 05:38 AM
Jesus said that he would come first and then recieve us to himself.
Pauls says ..according to the word of the lord, the living saints will not precede the dead saints, but when he descends (comes) he would raise us the last day, and we would all together be raptured.
So we wait for him to come, and when he does we will be like him for we shall see him as he is .This will happen on the day he comes to punish those who have rejected the gospel and caused harm to his persevering saints, and we will all marvel at it.

Jn 14
1thess 4
jn 5-6
1jn 3
2thess 1

honcho
Feb 19th 2008, 06:16 AM
The Symrna church in Asia Minor was currently suffering persecution from Gentiles and counterfeit Jews (Edomites) who belonged to the synagogue of Satan. Although they did not have much wealth they were spiritually rich in heavenly treasures.

The rapture is not implied in the letter to Symrna. Christians don't need to die a martyr to receive the crown of life -- all over comers in Christ receive one. Having tribulation for ten days is a limited period of time those in the Symrna church would suffer for their faith in Christ, the same suffering some Christians have suffered for decades. The tribulation Christians have always experienced is not the "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14) which is the hour of God's judgment on the wicked. All over comers in all the churches will not be hurt by the second death when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 2014).

The Philadelphia church has kept God's Word and has not denied his name, their spiritual condition is confirmed by their good works in spite of opposition from Jews and limited resources for spreading the gospel. They have endured patiently regardless of what tribulation and difficulties they have encountered in their daily lives working for the Lord.

Although Christians of all ages have suffered hardships imposed by God and persecution cause by the devil, it is not the same as what transpires in the great tribulation. All Christians through out the ages have lived in expectation of the "blessed hope" of meeting Christ face to face. When the "hour of trial" comes upon the whole world, all over comers in Christ will be kept from entering the great tribulation, the time of God's wrath (Dan 11:36). The "hour of trial" begins when "the hour of his judgment" comes and Babylon the Great is destroyed (Rev. 14:7).

honcho
Feb 19th 2008, 06:24 AM
Diggindeeper


I'll be watching this thread, because speaking from my own experience, it was only, ONLY when my eyes were opened to the fact that there is no secret rapture in scripture, that I could then see clearly the rapture only happens at the one and only 2nd coming of Christ Jesus! At the last trump...

There is no secret rapture, we will "see that Day approaching." Heb. 10:25

There needs to be two comings to judge all the living and the dead, one coming won't cut it.

skypair
Feb 19th 2008, 03:18 PM
vinsight -- you're making some observations I hadn't thought about. :idea:


Let's break apart Rev. 11.
Do you agree that it begins and continues clear till verse 15 as an angel speaking to John?
i.e - to say this
John is seeing nothing but the angel speaking and the temple (of the future) that he is to measure (as is done when a holy item is made). Yes, it appears to be so. It appears that that angel is the "mighty angel" of Rev 10 which is Jesus Christ in my view.

It also appears that there should have been a chapter break at 11:14, wouldn't you agree?

But here's the thing I would point out about the 7th trumpet -- indeed, the 7th seal as well. They are initiated timewise where they appear, this one in Rev 11:15 before mid-trib. But because they release the next series of judgments, they are not complete until the 7th bowl. So then here in Rev 17:16 we are swept forward in time to the end of the trib.

And guess what? We see the actual completion of the 7th trumpet in Rev 16:19 sandwiched between the 7th bowl (16:18) and the 7th seal (16:21). The 7th trump can't appear until the 7th bowl is complete and the 7th seal isn't complete until the 7th trumpet is fulfilled. Now there are a lot of clues to this in the preceding texts -- "lightnings, thunders,..."; statements like "mystery of God finished;" etc.


"And there was given me a reed...measure the temple of God..."
as in similar to the days of Ezekiel when he saw a guy with a reed and it was to measure the pattern of a future temple
Ezekiel 40-43:12 No, this doesn't compute. Ezek 40-48 comes postrib -- Rev 11 in the trib. The obvious detail being Ezek temple has an outer count.


See how even still in verse 10 the angel is speaking of future events, yet John has not see any of it as to - the 42 months? It appears to be so. I would say that in 11:1-15 John is seeing the first half of the trib and in 11:16-19 the post-7th trumpet scenes.


The temple is then seen soon to open in heaven.
The ark is seen - I say to show mercy time.
God will now have mercy on Israel and show His face. Yes, this is the end of the dedication of the temple and of earth that we see also spoken of in Rev 15:8. Only instead of the tabernacle being filled with smoke, the smoke will have cleared and the ark be seen as in the didication of the wilderness tabernacles and of Solomon's temple. This pretty much confirms, does it not, that the 7th trump is completed just prior to Christ's kingdom comes. That when the tabernacle in heaven is ready to mirror that on earth, that the one on earth, the Ezek 40-48 temple, will be readied.

skypair

skypair
Feb 19th 2008, 03:25 PM
I wrote to you about Rev. 19 but I still don't see it posted yet. Basically, more than one army comes from heaven after the marriage time. Mt 24:31 says "angels," Rev 19:7-14 says "wife." Yes. As I see it, the angels are the OT souls coming to gather their resurrected bodies to the judgment throne of Christ (Mt 24 is followed by Mt 25:14-46) after the battle which the "wife" fights alongside Christ.

Of course, this is going to take us a little more into the study of angels, isn't it. But basically, the "wife" sits on 12 thrones while the resurrected OT and trib saints are judged.

skypair

skypair
Feb 19th 2008, 03:40 PM
Ok, so you are saying that the church in Symrna are raptured because they are given the crown life. Yes, sir.


How do you reconcile this with Jesus' prophecy that they will, "have tribulation for ten days." In this case, the tribulation refers to an event yet to come -- the persecutions of Nero, Domitian, etc. (I believe the period to be from 100-300 AD) -- and not to the end of times tribulation.


Also the reward of the crown of life is promised in context to their being faithful unto death (implying that they will die). Also it is promised that they who overcome will not be hurt at all by the second death. Implying (or at very least allowing) that they may be harmed by the first death. Yes, they were "harmed" by the first death as have all before our generation. The promise regarding the 2nd death is that they will be resurrected to eternal life, not to the GWT from which all taste the 2nd death.


It seems your suggestion the ten virgins in Matthew 25 as being parallel to the letters to the churches in Asia seems primarily allegorical. What in the text specifically leads you to believe they are talking about the same thing? Parables ARE allegorical. They demand the "literal" for understanding

The primary thing suggesting the rapture in both texts is the tradition of the wedding in Judaism. When the couple-to-be get engaged (2Cor 11:2), the man goes to his father's house to prepare a place (John 14:1-4). At a unknown day when that "place" is prepared, he comes to fetch his bride and take her there for the wedding followded by 7 days of consummation of the marriage followed by the marriage supper at which she is introduced the the husband's family (which would be the OT Jews in Christ's case), Mt 22.

skypair

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 03:50 PM
Rev. 19 shows that the marraige comes after the tribulation time. The marriage can't take place until all of the righteousness saints are in heaven and also the great whoe city that rules during the trib must be avenged first.


"And after these things...a great voice of much people in heaven...salvation...."

verse 2
avenged the blood of his servants

judged the great city that did corrupt the earth

verse 7
for the marriage of the Lamb is come


salvation
Rev. 12
Now is come salvation
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down

and they loved not their lives unto the death



salvation
2 Thessalonians 5
not appointed us to wrath, but salvation


We are appointed to be here till the salvation moment comes after the trib ends and the mystery, Babylon is done corrupting the earth.

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 04:03 PM
What we need to do is bring all of the seated 24 elders times together as one event. When the elders fall down in chapter 11 - at the 7th trumpet starting point, John has only gone as far as the end of Rev. 4.

The 4 and 20 elders which did what?
sat


John arrived in heaven in the spirit for chapter 4 and saw various sights around the throne area. At that arrival point, John saw the 24 elders as seated. These elders are to sit and sit and sit and sit and remain sitting until what chapter 4 tells us happens with the four beasts.

the four beasts
give thanks

Only then - will it be the one and only time for the elders to cast off their golden crowns.


So when do they get noted as seated?
Rev. 4
Rev. 11


John was at the start of the 7th trumpet sounding (in chapter 11 and chapter 4 ) when where the elders just cast off their golden crowns is the place that now John will see the sealed book.

John has let us know that he had been told by the angel that a great earthquake hour is to come. -----but it will take the sealed book revelation events before John actually gets to the 6th seal and knows then that here is when those 24 elders cast off their crowns and the two witnesses will rise at the great earthquake hour.


John was shown the trumpets to come - only to the point of the 24 elders fell down - then he knew it takes a great earthquake for the resurrection of the two witnesses - and instead of seeing that earthquake in chapter 11- John was shown the sealed book. John was going to be made aware of what leads up to the time of the trumpets.
the sealed book is opened
and the trumpets end in the 6th seal (the great earthquake resurrection of the two witnesses hour)

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 04:21 PM
What actually happened to John in chapter 4?

Jesus did not descend but John was again in the spirit.
John caught up - the world down below didn't even wonder about where he went.

John sees the situation at the throne.

four beasts - yaking about He is to come
)odd if pre-trib verse here that shows Jesus just went and got the church
24 elders seated and crowned

Yet - Isaiah tells how the Lord will come back as exalted alone.

John was told that he was caught up to be shown hereafter events.

So where are they?
Where should the reader now move to for understanding of what John experienced in chapter 4?

chapter 12

"And there appeared...."

Here is the first end-time sighting for John.

John saw chapters 12-15 and then takes note of the sealed book for chapter 5.

Firstfruits
Feb 19th 2008, 04:31 PM
I am currently hold a post-trib rapture / classic pre-millennial viewpoint, but am looking for answers from those with a pre-tribulation rapture point of view.

There are several passages in Revelation that I find difficult to explain from a pre-trib standpoint. How to you reconcile these apparent difficulties?

One of the classic proof texts for pre-tribulation rapture is the letter to the church of Philadelphia, particularly Revelation 3:10.

'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
(Revelation 3:10 NASB)

This is taken to mean that faithful believers will be raptured prior to the judgments detailed in the book of Revelation. However I find this difficult to reconcile with the letter to Smyrna, the only other church which is only commended and not rebuked.


"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
(Revelation 2:8-11 NASB)

In this passage it is clear that they will be martyred in the tribulation rather than taken out of it. Because of the narrow context of the letters to the churches of Asia minor I find it difficult to interpret this letter as only for the historical believers of the church in Smyrna while interpreting the letter to the church of Philadelphia as a for all believers. It seems to me both letters must be either only for the particular historical church as faithful believers cannot be martyred in the tribulation and raptured prior to the tribulation.

Opinions?

The trial is the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the earth, and those that die during the reign of the beast /antichrist shall not experience it.

Rev 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

IBWatching
Feb 19th 2008, 04:32 PM
I am currently hold a post-trib rapture / classic pre-millennial viewpoint, but am looking for answers from those with a pre-tribulation rapture point of view...

In reading through the thread, I don't see where any pre-tribber has answered you. First, you must understand that not all pre-tribbers are dispensational, let alone classic dispensational, and see the first 3 chapters of Revelation as prophetic. I am one. I see the letters there as simply "updates" on specific problems or praises which applied to each local assembly. Despite the enormous amount of literature to the contrary, the Book of Revelation divides itself, with the prophecy part starting at chapter 4. Jesus, in chapter 22, gives support to this, twice using the phrase "the words of the prophecy of this book". Why two "ofs"? Clearly, not all the book is Prophecy.

I know I am running against how traditional pre-millennial and pre-trib views the first 3 chapters, but I have to sleep at night with my hermeneutics and I can't support positions when the Scripture itself says otherwise. As far as Revelation 3:10 goes, the emphasis IMO should be on the Truth that everyone on earth undergoes "testing" in that "hour". Which lines itself up exactly with what Jesus said about the Tribulation period:


Luke 21:34 "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.No one escapes.

vinsight4u8
Feb 19th 2008, 08:55 PM
skypair

Look at how there is more than one setup for situations as to lightnings, thunders and such.

Does each time end with the same punishment?

Rev. 11:19 is giving out the list of the next set of punishments that must come. When the great hail has come - that section of time (the vials) is done finished.

Unlike the time of the trumpets, it must be completed, none of it will be called back as in sealed up.

Compare Rev. 8:5 and then the end of what hour the two witnesses will rise in.

Rev. 11:13
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."

This is not the same hour as the seven vials of God's wrath earthquake.
Rev. 16:18

which is followed by great hail

skypair
Feb 19th 2008, 11:26 PM
Jesus did not descend but John was again in the spirit.
John caught up - the world down below didn't even wonder about where he went. Yeah -- wanna see what that really looked like? There's another example in Rev 20:11 -- "...from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." Rapture of the MK saints!! Oh, that's in 1Cor 15:24, also, BTW!

Happy trails to you, vinsight. :D

skypair

wundbread
Feb 20th 2008, 04:14 AM
The Symrna church in Asia Minor was currently suffering persecution from Gentiles and counterfeit Jews (Edomites) who belonged to the synagogue of Satan. Although they did not have much wealth they were spiritually rich in heavenly treasures.

The rapture is not implied in the letter to Symrna. Christians don't need to die a martyr to receive the crown of life -- all over comers in Christ receive one. Having tribulation for ten days is a limited period of time those in the Symrna church would suffer for their faith in Christ, the same suffering some Christians have suffered for decades. The tribulation Christians have always experienced is not the "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14) which is the hour of God's judgment on the wicked. All over comers in all the churches will not be hurt by the second death when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 2014).

The Philadelphia church has kept God's Word and has not denied his name, their spiritual condition is confirmed by their good works in spite of opposition from Jews and limited resources for spreading the gospel. They have endured patiently regardless of what tribulation and difficulties they have encountered in their daily lives working for the Lord.

Although Christians of all ages have suffered hardships imposed by God and persecution cause by the devil, it is not the same as what transpires in the great tribulation. All Christians through out the ages have lived in expectation of the "blessed hope" of meeting Christ face to face. When the "hour of trial" comes upon the whole world, all over comers in Christ will be kept from entering the great tribulation, the time of God's wrath (Dan 11:36). The "hour of trial" begins when "the hour of his judgment" comes and Babylon the Great is destroyed (Rev. 14:7).

Ok, so you hold a pre-wrath viewpoint? So the church will go with everything up to the judgment of Babylon and the Beast? If so this is the basically the same viewpoint I hold.

wundbread
Feb 20th 2008, 04:26 AM
The trial is the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the earth, and those that die during the reign of the beast /antichrist shall not experience it.

Rev 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So the reign of the beast which begins (according to my understanding) at the first seal is not part of the great tribulation in your estimation? You're a pre-wrath guy then?

wundbread
Feb 20th 2008, 04:42 AM
In reading through the thread, I don't see where any pre-tribber has answered you. First, you must understand that not all pre-tribbers are dispensational, let alone classic dispensational, and see the first 3 chapters of Revelation as prophetic. I am one. I see the letters there as simply "updates" on specific problems or praises which applied to each local assembly. Despite the enormous amount of literature to the contrary, the Book of Revelation divides itself, with the prophecy part starting at chapter 4. Jesus, in chapter 22, gives support to this, twice using the phrase "the words of the prophecy of this book". Why two "ofs"? Clearly, not all the book is Prophecy.

I know I am running against how traditional pre-millennial and pre-trib views the first 3 chapters, but I have to sleep at night with my hermeneutics and I can't support positions when the Scripture itself says otherwise. As far as Revelation 3:10 goes, the emphasis IMO should be on the Truth that everyone on earth undergoes "testing" in that "hour". Which lines itself up exactly with what Jesus said about the Tribulation period:

No one escapes.

Thank you for answering the question! So basically you don't think that the letter to the church of Philadelphia can't be used to prove the pre-tribulation rapture and the letters to the churches of Asia minor should be placed in their historical context rather than applied directly to the church throughout history.

Are you yourself a pre-trib guy (or gal)? I'm a bit unsure by your answer. In the beginning of your post you described yourself as one, but with the way your post ends I'm not so sure. If you are what are the primary scriptures that convince you that the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation?

honcho
Feb 20th 2008, 08:08 AM
honcho
all over comers in Christ will be kept from entering the great tribulation, the time of God's wrath (Dan 11:36)
wundbread
Ok, so you hold a pre-wrath viewpoint? So the church will go with everything up to the judgment of Babylon and the Beast? If so this is the basically the same viewpoint I hold.I'm assuming you consider God's wrath as the 7 vials lasting a short period of time (Rev. 16). My viewpoint is God's wrath covers the entire length of the great tribulation of 3.5 years, the second half of the 7 year covenant. Daniel prophesies of the "time of the end" (8:17,19; 11:35,40), which is God's "time of wrath" (8:19; 11:36). Daniel asked the angel of the Lord (Jesus) how long will it be before the time of the end is fulfilled; the angel replies "it will be for a time, times and half a time" (12:6-7), which is 1,290 days (11), and is approximately the same duration as the 1,260 days mentioned in Rev. The Tribulation is 3.5 years of 360 days a month, it is called the "hour of trial" and the "hour of his judgment" (Rev. 3:10; 14:7).

There will be two phases of Babylon's judgment, the fall of Babylon at the beginning of the great tribulation (Jer. 50:24,46; 51:8; Rev. 14:8; 18:2,10), and at the end of it (Rev. 16:19; 18:21).

Actually the beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire before Armageddon (Rev. 19:20), followed by the 7 vials.

The rapture is just before the time of wrath the begins half way into the 7 year covenant.

Roelof
Feb 20th 2008, 12:15 PM
For me this is the two most important rapture texts:

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

DeafPosttrib
Feb 20th 2008, 01:06 PM
Roelof,

Does, Apostle Paul saying, 'wrath' is seven year of Tribulation Period- 1 Thess. 1:10?

Tell me, what is the definition of 'wrath' means?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

vinsight4u8
Feb 20th 2008, 01:37 PM
God did not tell us that the church will be taken to heaven before any kind of wrath. The message is not that we are to not be here for all wrath, but only the wrath that will come after the event moment of salvation.

The bible tells us that He sat down in heaven and won't be coming back till time to make His enemies His footstool.
Jesus therefore is not coming for the church till it is time to take down all of the wicked. Just as foretold in 2 Thess. 2 as to our gathering-
That day
shall not come
till

the man of sin be revealed
sits in the temple of God - showing to himself that he is God

What does it say about when the Lord comes?

the Wicked destroyed with the brightness of His coming

The Lord will begin to take down the Wicked when he comes to get (gather) the church in the rapture.

Jesus has come to the point of He will destroy....so look at the Rev. 11:18 ( a 7th trumpet verse) as only during this trumpet time will the 24 elders announce that it is time for Him to destroy.

Firstfruits
Feb 20th 2008, 02:01 PM
For me this is the two most important rapture texts:

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

The wrath we are delivered from does not mean raptured before the tribulation as Jesus does not return until after the tribulation. From the foloowing scriptures all that are in Christ are safe from Gods wrath.

1 Thess 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Rom 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him

Rom 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Christians have no need to fear the wrath of God, but that does not excuse us from the reign of the beast and the martyrdom of the saints.

IBWatching
Feb 20th 2008, 10:22 PM
Thank you for answering the question! So basically you don't think that the letter to the church of Philadelphia can't be used to prove the pre-tribulation rapture and the letters to the churches of Asia minor should be placed in their historical context rather than applied directly to the church throughout history.

Are you yourself a pre-trib guy (or gal)? I'm a bit unsure by your answer. In the beginning of your post you described yourself as one, but with the way your post ends I'm not so sure. If you are what are the primary scriptures that convince you that the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation?

Technically, I am Pre-Day of the Lord in regards to the gathering/changing of the Church. But because I believe the Tribulation period/70th week determined for Israel is part of the DOTL, that makes me pre-trib also. I pay special attention to Paul's instructions that the DOTL is immediately preceded by "peace and safety". Alas, many others pay no attention to it in their timelines, which is basic problem with all timelines...trying to be too specific. I'm way more keen on order in the Scripture. It's plenty sufficient in and of itself to have a good understanding of the end times.

honcho
Feb 21st 2008, 03:13 AM
IBWatching
I pay special attention to Paul's instructions that the DOTL is immediately preceded by "peace and safety". Alas, many others pay no attention to it in their timelines, which is basic problem with all timelines.

Agree. Many are not aware there has to "Peace and safety" prior to the DOTL that comes suddenly without warning. There would not be a period of peace if the DOTL was a single day at the end of the Tribulation. The DOTL is God's wrath that must begin during the peace and safety in order for it to come "suddenly." The peace and safety begins with the 7 year covenant and ends suddenly with destruction. As Isaiah said: "Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty" (13:6). The destruction that ushers in the DOTL is not directly from God, rather man himself inflicting destruction on others, it will be so great it will appear to have come from God.

God's wrath on earth is not confined to a single day. Gabriel told Daniel that the vision he received would "happen later in the time of wrath" during the "time of the end" (8:19). The length of the "time of the end" is "a time, times and half a time," which is 3.5 years (12:7). So, if you're pre wrath on the rapture, it has to occur before the mid point of the 7 year covenant.

Firstfruits
Feb 21st 2008, 11:57 AM
For me this is the two most important rapture texts:

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

The wrath we are delivered from does not mean raptured before the tribulation as Jesus does not return until after the tribulation. From the foloowing scriptures all that are in Christ are safe from Gods wrath.

1 Thess 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Rom 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him

Rom 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Christians have no need to fear the wrath of God, but that does not excuse us from the reign of the beast and the martyrdom of the saints.

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

IBWatching
Feb 21st 2008, 08:08 PM
...If you are what are the primary scriptures that convince you that the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation?

I just realized I failed to answer your last question. There are more than a few, but this one summarizes my position best:


Matthew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are {all} butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 "Then he *said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find {there,} invite to the wedding feast.' 10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.This is a "kingdom of heaven" parable, spoken only to/about Israel. The kingdom of heaven age is a Jewish age and the last one prior to Israel recognizing their Messiah.

King = God the Father
Son = Jesus Christ
Bride = Church
Wedding Guests = Israel
Wedding Feast = Event on earth when Jesus Returns
First Set of Slaves = OT Prophets and Leaders
Second Set of Slaves = John the Baptist, Jesus and His Disciples
City Set on Fire = Jerusalem, 70AD

The Wedding Feast has already been prepared before the Wedding can happen (is ready). The last set of slaves are not sent out to invite others to the Wedding Feast until the Wedding is Ready (Bride is Complete and Prepared). When that last set of slaves are sent out, they invite everyone (not just Jews) to the Wedding Feast. Even then, a separation has to be made because not all are wearing the right clothes to be part of the Feast.

There is no invitation being issued for Wedding Feast guests between the time the city (Jerusalem) is set on fire (70AD) and the time the Wedding is Ready (Bride Complete, Prepared). That's because during that time it is the Bride Herself that is being called.

After the Wedding is Ready (Bride is Complete, Prepared), the last set of slaves go out. They are again calling guests to the wedding feast. It's too late to call the Bride, as She is already complete. The last set of slaves are:

The Two Witnesses
The 144,000
The Angel with the Eternal Gospel

They are the ones who issue the last call to the Wedding Feast, during the tribulation period.

I noticed that you and honcho are both pre-wrath. I cannot see pre-wrath as a valid viewpoint because there is no gathering/changing of the Church in Matthew 24.

honcho
Feb 21st 2008, 11:06 PM
IBWatching

I noticed that you and honcho are both pre-wrath. I cannot see pre-wrath as a valid viewpoint because there is no gathering/changing of the Church in Matthew 24.

Most pre wrath rapturist believe the rapture is just prior to Vials of Rev.

I say God's wrath encompasses the entire second half of the 7 year covenant, it is not one day. The second half is the Tribulation with peace in the first half. The rapture is just prior to the second half which is the "time of the end" or the time of God's wrath. This make me mid-week-pre-trib (or wrath). Do you clearly understand my position?

wundbread
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:08 AM
Technically, I am Pre-Day of the Lord in regards to the gathering/changing of the Church. But because I believe the Tribulation period/70th week determined for Israel is part of the DOTL, that makes me pre-trib also. I pay special attention to Paul's instructions that the DOTL is immediately preceded by "peace and safety". Alas, many others pay no attention to it in their timelines, which is basic problem with all timelines...trying to be too specific. I'm way more keen on order in the Scripture. It's plenty sufficient in and of itself to have a good understanding of the end times.

I agree, scripture contains abundant information, but I don't agree with your interpretation of 1 Thess 5. I believe that the second coming comes 'like a thief in the night' catching the unbeliever and the unwise / un-watchful off guard. It is while THEY are saying 'peace and safety', that sudden destruction comes, but WE 'are not in darkness'.

wundbread
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:14 AM
The wrath we are delivered from does not mean raptured before the tribulation as Jesus does not return until after the tribulation. From the foloowing scriptures all that are in Christ are safe from Gods wrath.

1 Thess 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Rom 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him

Rom 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Christians have no need to fear the wrath of God, but that does not excuse us from the reign of the beast and the martyrdom of the saints.

The question is then that what really constitutes the wrath of God. I would argue that as bad as 50% of the population of the earth dying, demonic activity, and sin at an unprecedented level is, it's still better than being sent to the lake of fire forever. Is the tribulation wrath (I believe it is in part), or a disciplinary measure to win as many souls as possible?

wundbread
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:41 AM
This is a "kingdom of heaven" parable, spoken only to/about Israel. The kingdom of heaven age is a Jewish age and the last one prior to Israel recognizing their Messiah.


Then what do you do with passages that assert the unity of Jew and Gentile?
I.e.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 12:13 NASB)

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
(Ephesians 2:11-16 NASB)

The way I read (especially Eph 2 and Romans 11) we have been brought into the promises given to the Jews. This I think is one of the key differences I see in how pre-trib and post-trib folks interpret scriptures. Pre-trib folks tend to very firmly separate the 'physical' promises given to Israel and 'spiritual' promises for the church. I see the 'Israel of God' as one entity, Jew and Gentile, both entering into the same set of promises by grace through faith.

Having said that I also see a Jewish remnant surviving the great tribulation having a special role and forming the core of the 'ground crew' for the kingdom of God. Yes, physical unbelieving Israel has a special role, but I don't think the division of the church and Israel is quite as clean cut.

Firstfruits
Feb 22nd 2008, 10:31 AM
The question is then that what really constitutes the wrath of God. I would argue that as bad as 50% of the population of the earth dying, demonic activity, and sin at an unprecedented level is, it's still better than being sent to the lake of fire forever. Is the tribulation wrath (I believe it is in part), or a disciplinary measure to win as many souls as possible?

The wrath of God is what will be poured out on the beast and his kingdom and all that worship the beast.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

Roelof
Feb 22nd 2008, 11:29 AM
At the moment I believe that the most important thing for Christians are to be ready for the return of Christ at any day.

Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes. (Mat 24:42)


My personal opinion is that the Rapture will be before the Tribulation, but I must mention that it is nowhere written in rock.


and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

Firstfruits
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:19 PM
At the moment I believe that the most important thing for Christians are to be ready for the return of Christ at any day.

Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes. (Mat 24:42)


My personal opinion is that the Rapture will be before the Tribulation, but I must mention that it is nowhere written in rock.


and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.



Please note the following;

2 Thess 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Unless the man of sin is revealed and reigns Jesus will not come back, according to that which is written.

IBWatching
Feb 22nd 2008, 05:20 PM
Then what do you do with passages that assert the unity of Jew and Gentile?
I.e.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 12:13 NASB)

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
(Ephesians 2:11-16 NASB)

The way I read (especially Eph 2 and Romans 11) we have been brought into the promises given to the Jews. This I think is one of the key differences I see in how pre-trib and post-trib folks interpret scriptures. Pre-trib folks tend to very firmly separate the 'physical' promises given to Israel and 'spiritual' promises for the church. I see the 'Israel of God' as one entity, Jew and Gentile, both entering into the same set of promises by grace through faith.

Having said that I also see a Jewish remnant surviving the great tribulation having a special role and forming the core of the 'ground crew' for the kingdom of God. Yes, physical unbelieving Israel has a special role, but I don't think the division of the church and Israel is quite as clean cut.

The Mystery of Jew and gentile did not exist until the Church. In the Post-Sinai OT, a gentile who wanted to come to God had to get circumsized and become part of Israel. Paul revealed the Mystery and was it's first Administrator. Church doctrine was revealed to him first. Even Peter acknowledged this and admitted that even he couldn't understand Paul's teachings at first. I think it's fair to say that while both were Jews, Peter struggled more with gentiles being part of the Church. Why wouldn't he? Anyone who came to God before there was a Church simply became part of Israel. Things had changed.

Overall, your post simply points me to a question that I always ask other pre-millers who aren't pre-trib. If you believe the Church is here during the DOTL/trib, then what are Jews in the Church doing? Are they regathered to Israel? Do they start making sacrifices in Jerusalem? Do they get "unsaved" so they they can again be Saved as part of the Remnant?

I think the answer to these questions is obvious. There can be no "melding" of Church Jews with Remnant Jews. Jews who are part of the Church are no longer "look(ing) up, for your Redemption draweth nigh" because they are already Saved. They already know that there are no more sacrifices which can be made on any altar, for Jesus has already made the only sufficient one.

I have had some try working their way out of this problem, but they can offer only one solution for God finishing His program for Israel and the gentile nations. The Church is left out of it, just as Jesus and Paul said.

Roelof
Feb 24th 2008, 04:22 AM
Please note the following;

2 Thess 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Unless the man of sin is revealed and reigns Jesus will not come back, according to that which is written.



Firstfruits

Thank you for your comments.

I believe that the Second Coming of Christ will be in two phases:


The Rapture before the Trib
The Glorious Coming of Christ with Armageddon

Firstfruits
Feb 24th 2008, 11:26 AM
[quote=Roelof;1550369]Firstfruits

Thank you for your comments.

I believe that the Second Coming of Christ will be in two phases:

The Rapture before the Trib
The Glorious Coming of Christ with Armageddon[/quote

Regarding the tribulation/wrath of God do you believe that the
saints/church will be martyred before God pours out his wrath, according to that which is written?

Rev 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Do you believe that these things will happen to the saints/church before the tribulation/wrath of God is poured out?

At what event would you believe that would happen since it would be just before the tribulation/wrath of God?

honcho
Feb 24th 2008, 02:42 PM
Roelof
At the moment I believe that the most important thing for Christians are to be ready for the return of Christ at any day.

Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes. (Mat 24:42)

My personal opinion is that the Rapture will be before the Tribulation, but I must mention that it is nowhere written in rock.

The possibility of Christ returning any day is an imminent rapture that could happen at anytime without the fulfillment of any prophetic event, this contradicts the command to watch for the Lord's return in Mat 24:42, which is at the end of the Tribulation. If you are pre trib on the rapture, the second coming of Christ to judge the nations at the end of the Tribulation does not concern the church. The church is not in the context of Mat. 24, which is the Tribulation, also known as Jacob's trouble. As a pre trib rapturist, you need to stay out of Mat. 24.

honcho
Feb 24th 2008, 02:44 PM
firstfruits
Please note the following;

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Unless the man of sin is revealed and reigns Jesus will not come back, according to that which is written.

The revealing of the man of sin occurs during the church age in the first half of the 70th week before the Church is raptured prior to the DOTL that begins with the Tribulation in the second half. His revealing is a sign given to the church that Jesus is coming back to take the church out of the world, his revealing is not a sign of the second coming at the end of the Tribulation.

The setting up of the abomination in the temple is a sign given to Jews in Jerusalem to flee from the incoming invasion of Israel by the Antichrist and his allies at mid point of the 70th week (Eze. 38). This happens at the beginning of the Tribulation that ends with the second coming. His revealing occurs in the context of the church whereas the abomination occurs in the context of Jews in Jerusalem during the time of Jacob's trouble. His revealing and the abomination are two separate events at different times within the 70 week.

ShirleyFord
Feb 24th 2008, 04:00 PM
The revealing of the man of sin occurs during the church age in the first half of the 70th week before the Church is raptured prior to the DOTL that begins with the Tribulation in the second half. His revealing is a sign given to the church that Jesus is coming back to take the church out of the world, his revealing is not a sign of the second coming at the end of the Tribulation.

The setting up of the abomination in the temple is a sign given to Jews in Jerusalem to flee from the incoming invasion of Israel by the Antichrist and his allies at mid point of the 70th week (Eze. 38). This happens at the beginning of the Tribulation that ends with the second coming. His revealing occurs in the context of the church whereas the abomination occurs in the context of Jews in Jerusalem during the time of Jacob's trouble. His revealing and the abomination are two separate events at different times within the 70 week.

Honcho,

The 70 weeks are only mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27. The 70th week is mentioned in vs. 26a and 27a of Daniel 9, the time when "the Messiah" is cut off.

Nothing is mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 about "antichrist", "the Tribulation that ends with the second coming" of Christ or "Jacob's trouble".

"Jacob's trouble" is mentioned only one time in the Bible (Jer 30:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=30&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)) by Jeremiah concerning the Babylonian Captivity.

We find "Gog and Magog" of Ezekiel 38 in Revelation 20 after the thousand years:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Shirley

IBWatching
Feb 24th 2008, 05:24 PM
...Nothing is mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 about "antichrist", "the Tribulation that ends with the second coming" of Christ...

It wasn't necessary. Jesus Himself connected them in Matthew 24. And despite what anyone says, He hasn't Returned yet. In context, The events in Daniel's prophecy are connected to the end of the age and Jesus' Second Coming to the earth. You can see the "gap" in both Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 or you can say there is none in Daniel 9 and then try explain the large one between everything else being literally fulfilled in 70AD and when Jesus will Return, which has been over 1,900 years now.

Even Jewish scholars have to admit to some kind of "gap" when explaining Daniel. Which is why I find it so intriguing that a-mils and preterists deny any at all.

ShirleyFord
Feb 24th 2008, 06:04 PM
It wasn't necessary. Jesus Himself connected them in Matthew 24. And despite what anyone says, He hasn't Returned yet. In context, The events in Daniel's prophecy are connected to the end of the age and Jesus' Second Coming to the earth. You can see the "gap" in both Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 or you can say there is none in Daniel 9 and then try explain the large one between everything else being literally fulfilled in 70AD and when Jesus will Return, which has been over 1,900 years now.

Even Jewish scholars have to admit to some kind of "gap" when explaining Daniel. Which is why I find it so intriguing that a-mils and preterists deny any at all.

I doubt that any Jewish scholar who rejects Jesus Christ as the Jews' promised Messiah would admit to a gap between Daniel's 69th week and the 70th week as referring to a 1900+ year period between Messiah's First Coming and His Second Coming, since he would believe that Messiah hasn't come yet.

Jesus ties the destruction of the second stone temple to Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:26b of the city and the sanctuary being destroyed after the 70th week has been completed when Messiah is cut off after the 69th week, in the midst of the 70th week, to the point that not one stone of the temple is left upon another.

Daniel doesn't mention antichrist, a third rebuilt stone temple, a seven year GT leading up to The Second Coming of Christ, or Jacob's trouble.

Jesus doesn't mention that the second stone temple will be destroyed during the 70th week. In none of the 3 accounts, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, does Jesus mention the 70 weeks of Daniel, let alone the 70th week.

But He does speak of two different events at two different times:

1. The destruction of the temple
2. His Second Coming

However, He doesn't say that the second temple will be destroyed at His Second Coming. Neither does He mention a third rebuilt stone temple being built or that He will destroy a third rebuilt stone temple when He returns.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 25th 2008, 08:24 PM
I doubt that any Jewish scholar who rejects Jesus Christ as the Jews' promised Messiah would admit to a gap between Daniel's 69th week and the 70th week as referring to a 1900+ year period between Messiah's First Coming and His Second Coming, since he would believe that Messiah hasn't come yet.

Jesus ties the destruction of the second stone temple to Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:26b of the city and the sanctuary being destroyed after the 70th week has been completed when Messiah is cut off after the 69th week, in the midst of the 70th week, to the point that not one stone of the temple is left upon another.

Daniel doesn't mention antichrist, a third rebuilt stone temple, a seven year GT leading up to The Second Coming of Christ, or Jacob's trouble.

Jesus doesn't mention that the second stone temple will be destroyed during the 70th week. In none of the 3 accounts, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, does Jesus mention the 70 weeks of Daniel, let alone the 70th week.

But He does speak of two different events at two different times:

1. The destruction of the temple
2. His Second Coming

However, He doesn't say that the second temple will be destroyed at His Second Coming. Neither does He mention a third rebuilt stone temple being built or that He will destroy a third rebuilt stone temple when He returns.


Shirley

Yet with all that there is no doubt that Jesus has not returned, so can we truly say there is no gap?

IBWatching
Feb 25th 2008, 08:24 PM
I doubt that any Jewish scholar who rejects Jesus Christ as the Jews' promised Messiah would admit to a gap between Daniel's 69th week and the 70th week as referring to a 1900+ year period between Messiah's First Coming and His Second Coming, since he would believe that Messiah hasn't come yet...

So do I. That isn't the type of "gap" I was talking about. But it does show how one can easily and quickly apply their end times "preference" to any particular question concerning Daniel's prophecy.


...But He does speak of two different events at two different times:

1. The destruction of the temple
2. His Second Coming...

This is where some can't see the forest for the trees. Jesus was answering questions relating to the destruction of the Temple, the end of the age, and His Coming. Even if you want to relate His mention of Daniel's prophecy to events prior to/including 70AD (which you appear to do), HE STILL HASN'T COME YET. As I said one is either required to admit to a "gap" of 1,900 (and still counting) years between the events of 70 AD and Jesus' Return, or a gap between the time Jesus said this and when those signs occur. Even the context demands it, as Jesus said that one generation would witness it all.

My only issue here is to keep those who rail against the pre-trib position and it's "gap" between the 69th and 70th week from sliding off the hook. They also see a "gap" whether they want to admit it or not.

ShirleyFord
Feb 26th 2008, 03:47 AM
IBWatching,

I was taught for 30 years as a pretribber the "gap" between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. I became highly concerned over time when I was finally taught the purpose for the gap: To allow God to judge and punish Israel for rejecting their Messiah in the first century when He came. He would judge and punish them through the antichrist during the 70th week after God removed the Church from off the planet (thus the purpose of the pretrib rapture), killing 2/3s of them until the 1/3 remnant that was left would finally give up and confess that Jesus was indeed the Promised Messiah. Then Jesus could stop pacing those heavenly streets of pure gold and descend back to the earth to restore the kingdom back to physical Israel.

But as we read the 70 week prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27, there is nothing mentioned there that would even suggest a gap between the 69th and 70th week. The destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple in Daniel 9:26b is not included in the 70 weeks but came as a result of what the leaders of Israel did to their Messiah during the 70th week.

If you want to call the time period between the First and Second Comings of Christ a gap, I will agree to that.


Shirley

IBWatching
Feb 26th 2008, 05:40 PM
IBWatching,

I was taught for 30 years as a pretribber the "gap" between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. I became highly concerned over time when I was finally taught the purpose for the gap: To allow God to judge and punish Israel for rejecting their Messiah in the first century when He came. He would judge and punish them through the antichrist during the 70th week after God removed the Church from off the planet (thus the purpose of the pretrib rapture), killing 2/3s of them until the 1/3 remnant that was left would finally give up and confess that Jesus was indeed the Promised Messiah. Then Jesus could stop pacing those heavenly streets of pure gold and descend back to the earth to restore the kingdom back to physical Israel...

Thanks for sharing, Shirley. I rarely hear from former pre-tribbers about what caused them to "leave" that camp or how they "held" the position when they were in that camp.

I never understood the purpose for the tribulation period being anything but for two reasons:

1. To judge sin (which rightly comes on ALL who are on the earth).
2. To destroy or subject all physical enemies of Jesus Christ (Psalms 110).

In the context of what I have said above, the Church cannot be here because it is exempt from all judgment concerning sin. (From discipline no, but from judgment of that sin, yes). Once Jesus Returns, then He starts working on all His spiritual enemies. That is the basis on which He makes the separation judgments when He returns. Those who do not have faith in Him are His enemies. They continue throughout His Reign here on earth, culminating in the eventual destruction of satan himself, as well as death, which Paul states is the last enemy defeated (1 Cor 15). Once He has abolished all rule, power and authority (physical and spiritual), He hands everything subjected to Himself over to the Father.

wundbread
Feb 26th 2008, 10:17 PM
The wrath of God is what will be poured out on the beast and his kingdom and all that worship the beast.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

So the wrath of God isn't being expressed in hell / the lake of fire? The wrath of God is expressed in his judgment of the Beast and his kingdom, but not exclusively upon the beast. Verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refer to us MOSTLY escaping the final ultimate eternal wrath of God.

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:11-15 NASB)

Firstfruits
Feb 27th 2008, 08:48 AM
So the wrath of God isn't being expressed in hell / the lake of fire? The wrath of God is expressed in his judgment of the Beast and his kingdom, but not exclusively upon the beast. Verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refer to us MOSTLY escaping the final ultimate eternal wrath of God.

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:11-15 NASB)

According what is written no to your first question and yes to your second, and note that after all that has been done and Jesus comes back they are then cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

Rev 2:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

markdrums
Feb 27th 2008, 10:03 AM
Yet with all that there is no doubt that Jesus has not returned, so can we truly say there is no gap?

Jesus hasn't "returned" in the sense of his "second coming / rapture / last day". However, the prophecies he gave to his disciples WERE FULFILLED in their generation.
They saw him "coming with clouds, having great power & glory".
(This is not to be confused with Jesus "RETURNING"..... that's an entirely different event, which IS still in the future)

There WAS no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel.....
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem UNTO the Messiah shall be seven weeks, threescore and two weeks. The street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25.

It was 483 years from the time of the commandment, unto the Messiah.
(69 weeks) That left seven years, or "one more week"....
However, IN the 70th week (in the midst of the remaining seven years) Jesus was Crucified. (or, "Cut-Off" concerning his life).

Because of the sacrifice JESUS made for US, he put an "END TO SACRIFICE".

ALL 70 weeks have happened..... IN A ROW!
There was no gap, there is no "We're still waiting for the 70th week to happen"....
It was fulfilled, Just as scripture said it would be.

So.... to summarize, There was no gap in the 70 weeks, & Jesus has not "RETURNED", but his prophecies during the Olivet discourse were fulfilled, with the coming of his spiritual kingdom.
We are still waiting for the Rapture, which is on the last day, when EVERYONE is caught up.... not just "the church".

Firstfruits
Feb 27th 2008, 11:46 AM
Jesus hasn't "returned" in the sense of his "second coming / rapture / last day". However, the prophecies he gave to his disciples WERE FULFILLED in their generation.
They saw him "coming with clouds, having great power & glory".
(This is not to be confused with Jesus "RETURNING"..... that's an entirely different event, which IS still in the future)

There WAS no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel.....
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem UNTO the Messiah shall be seven weeks, threescore and two weeks. The street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25.

It was 483 years from the time of the commandment, unto the Messiah.
(69 weeks) That left seven years, or "one more week"....
However, IN the 70th week (in the midst of the remaining seven years) Jesus was Crucified. (or, "Cut-Off" concerning his life).

Because of the sacrifice JESUS made for US, he put an "END TO SACRIFICE".

ALL 70 weeks have happened..... IN A ROW!
There was no gap, there is no "We're still waiting for the 70th week to happen"....
It was fulfilled, Just as scripture said it would be.

So.... to summarize, There was no gap in the 70 weeks, & Jesus has not "RETURNED", but his prophecies during the Olivet discourse were fulfilled, with the coming of his spiritual kingdom.
We are still waiting for the Rapture, which is on the last day, when EVERYONE is caught up.... not just "the church".

I can understand them seeing him go, but where does it say they saw him coming in the clouds?
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Has the following scripture been fulfilled, if so when?
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

When did what you have stated happen?

They saw him "coming with clouds, having great power & glory".
(This is not to be confused with Jesus "RETURNING"..... that's an entirely different event, which IS still in the future)

According to what is written it says "they shall see" not they saw him coming.
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So according to what is written has it been fulfilled?

markdrums
Feb 27th 2008, 01:16 PM
I can understand them seeing him go, but where does it say they saw him coming in the clouds?
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Has the following scripture been fulfilled, if so when?
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

When did what you have stated happen?

They saw him "coming with clouds, having great power & glory".
(This is not to be confused with Jesus "RETURNING"..... that's an entirely different event, which IS still in the future)

According to what is written it says "they shall see" not they saw him coming.
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So according to what is written has it been fulfilled?

Well,
According to what is written, these things HAVE been fulfilled. (JUST AS written...)

According to what is written,
WHO would see him coming with clouds??? "...even those who pierced him."
Remember, this is NOT to be confused with the "Second Coming/ RETURN / Rapture / Last Day". We're talking about 2 entirely different events.
Christ's vindication of his crucifixion as the TRUE KING, is the context.

According to what is written,
Jesus said it would happen in their generation, that THEY would see these things happen, & some of them standing there when Jesus said it, would not taste death before these things be fulfilled.
At the time it was written, it would have been in the near future.... making it a prophecy....However, we know that they DID see those things with the destruction of the temple. That is when they SAW those things.

According to what is written,
Daniel prophesied "70 weeks" from the commandment, unto the messiah being cut off.... AND, just as written, those 70 weeks were fulfilled, and were consecutive. (not 483 years, then insert gap of 2000 years before the remaining seven).

Would you agree that in order for Jesus, and the disciples to consider Daniel a true prophet of God, his prophecies would have to be fulfilled, in order to give them any credibility?

Would you also agree that if Jesus said something would happen at a certain time, to certain people, then it must have happened?
If Jesus said it, & it was un-true, what would that mean?

Firstfruits
Feb 27th 2008, 02:16 PM
Well,
According to what is written, these things HAVE been fulfilled. (JUST AS written...)

According to what is written,
WHO would see him coming with clouds??? "...even those who pierced him."
Remember, this is NOT to be confused with the "Second Coming/ RETURN / Rapture / Last Day". We're talking about 2 entirely different events.
Christ's vindication of his crucifixion as the TRUE KING, is the context.

According to what is written,
Jesus said it would happen in their generation, that THEY would see these things happen, & some of them standing there when Jesus said it, would not taste death before these things be fulfilled.
At the time it was written, it would have been in the near future.... making it a prophecy....However, we know that they DID see those things with the destruction of the temple. That is when they SAW those things.

According to what is written,
Daniel prophesied "70 weeks" from the commandment, unto the messiah being cut off.... AND, just as written, those 70 weeks were fulfilled, and were consecutive. (not 483 years, then insert gap of 2000 years before the remaining seven).

Would you agree that in order for Jesus, and the disciples to consider Daniel a true prophet of God, his prophecies would have to be fulfilled, in order to give them any credibility?

Would you also agree that if Jesus said something would happen at a certain time, to certain people, then it must have happened?
If Jesus said it, & it was un-true, what would that mean?

Who would see him come with the clouds?

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Not all prophesy that is given is for those who are there when it is given, ie Jesu was promised in Genesis, this certainly was not fulfilled in Moses generation, was the prophesy of his coming therefore false?

The same would apply to David and Isaiah Daniel and all those prophesies for the future, because they do not happen in the persons life time does not make them any less valid.

Unless you are saying that the church will not see Jesus coming in the clouds?

markdrums
Feb 27th 2008, 05:07 PM
Who would see him come with the clouds?

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Not all prophesy that is given is for those who are there when it is given, ie Jesu was promised in Genesis, this certainly was not fulfilled in Moses generation, was the prophesy of his coming therefore false?

The same would apply to David and Isaiah Daniel and all those prophesies for the future, because they do not happen in the persons life time does not make them any less valid.

Unless you are saying that the church will not see Jesus coming in the clouds?


Remember, Coming with clouds does not JUST mean "Returning / The Second Coming / Rapture".

Look at Daniel 7:13-14-
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Dan&chapter=7&translation=nkjvp&x=10&y=6#)"I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Dan&chapter=7&translation=nkjvp&x=10&y=6#)Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Notice the description, "Clouds of Heaven".
You have to think back to other times clouds are mentioned throughout the Bible, & what the meanings were. Remember, in the days of the temple(s), The Shekinah "Glory Cloud" (the essence, or Spirit of God) would enter, & dwell there. And other appearances of God, before Jesus' birth, were often described as "clouds".
For instance, (These are just a few of many)

Exd 16:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd016.html#10) And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exd 40:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd040.html#34) Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Eze 10:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze010.html#4) Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, [and stood] over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory.

Luk 21:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk021.html#27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

So, we can't assume "clouds" or "coming in clouds" automatically means "Return / Second Coming / Rapture".

Jesus was referring to HIS GLORY being seen in the clouds in their generation, as Vindication of his Deity, & True King.
It's a metaphoric description used from the Beginning of the Bible.

This is why the "literal at all costs, whenever possible" interpretation causes confusion.

Firstfruits
Feb 27th 2008, 07:53 PM
Remember, Coming with clouds does not JUST mean "Returning / The Second Coming / Rapture".

Look at Daniel 7:13-14-
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Dan&chapter=7&translation=nkjvp&x=10&y=6#)"I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Dan&chapter=7&translation=nkjvp&x=10&y=6#)Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Notice the description, "Clouds of Heaven".
You have to think back to other times clouds are mentioned throughout the Bible, & what the meanings were. Remember, in the days of the temple(s), The Shekinah "Glory Cloud" (the essence, or Spirit of God) would enter, & dwell there. And other appearances of God, before Jesus' birth, were often described as "clouds".
For instance, (These are just a few of many)

Exd 16:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd016.html#10) And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exd 40:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd040.html#34) Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Eze 10:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze010.html#4) Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, [and stood] over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory.

Luk 21:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk021.html#27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

So, we can't assume "clouds" or "coming in clouds" automatically means "Return / Second Coming / Rapture".

Jesus was referring to HIS GLORY being seen in the clouds in their generation, as Vindication of his Deity, & True King.
It's a metaphoric description used from the Beginning of the Bible.

This is why the "literal at all costs, whenever possible" interpretation causes confusion.

With regards to the prophecy this how it is said that Jesus would come back;

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is his coming.

markdrums
Feb 27th 2008, 08:36 PM
With regards to the prophecy this how it is said that Jesus would come back;

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is his coming.

Looking at context, Acts does give us a preview of being "taken up / caught up".

However, in Revelation 1:7, the context has nothing to do with being taken up, nor is it about Jesus "returning" as in his "second coming".

THIS is talking about "Even those who pierced him" will see him in his glory. Those who pierced him (nailing him to the cross) have long since passed away. They DID see him "come in clouds with power & glory".
Coming in clouds, in this instance has the same meaning as it did in Exodus 16 & Exodus 40, AND Ezekiel 10:4.
The "clouds" are a symbol of God's Glory.

The Olivet Discourse ALSO uses clouds in 2 different contexts.
ONE, being "a symbol of power & glory" (Which was the fulfillment of the disciples seeing him, as was written...)
And TWO, describing his "return", which will include US being "taken up".

You can't associate the word clouds with "returning" every time you see it.
Otherwise, you change the context of Exd 40:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd040.html#34) - Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
To associate "clouds" here the way you are, the meaning changes & you would be saying,"The cloud covered the tent of the congregation, & the glory of the Lord Returned / took up / Raptured the tabernacle. (tent)
That wouldn't make sense....
Instead of God FILLING the tabernacle (tent) with his Glory, he Raptured the tent??? (not the "people" but the actual tent.....)

I know Jesus will RETURN (ie Second Coming) in the same manner in which the disciples saw him ascend to Heaven... but these other references to clouds aren't describing that.

divaD
Feb 27th 2008, 10:31 PM
Looking at context, Acts does give us a preview of being "taken up / caught up".

However, in Revelation 1:7, the context has nothing to do with being taken up, nor is it about Jesus "returning" as in his "second coming".

THIS is talking about "Even those who pierced him" will see him in his glory. Those who pierced him (nailing him to the cross) have long since passed away. They DID see him "come in clouds with power & glory".
Coming in clouds, in this instance has the same meaning as it did in Exodus 16 & Exodus 40, AND Ezekiel 10:4.
The "clouds" are a symbol of God's Glory.

The Olivet Discourse ALSO uses clouds in 2 different contexts.
ONE, being "a symbol of power & glory" (Which was the fulfillment of the disciples seeing him, as was written...)
And TWO, describing his "return", which will include US being "taken up".

You can't associate the word clouds with "returning" every time you see it.
Otherwise, you change the context of Exd 40:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd040.html#34) - Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
To associate "clouds" here the way you are, the meaning changes & you would be saying,"The cloud covered the tent of the congregation, & the glory of the Lord Returned / took up / Raptured the tabernacle. (tent)
That wouldn't make sense....
Instead of God FILLING the tabernacle (tent) with his Glory, he Raptured the tent??? (not the "people" but the actual tent.....)

I know Jesus will RETURN (ie Second Coming) in the same manner in which the disciples saw him ascend to Heaven... but these other references to clouds aren't describing that.




I'm sorry, but your logic makes absolutely no sense to me at all. When do you think John penned the book of Revelation? Wouldn't you agree that it was after Christ had already died, ressurrected, and since acendended back unto heaven?

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

If I'm reading you correctly, it's almost as if you are saying that John penned the book of Revelation before Christ's ascension, because you claim verse 7 was referring to that time and not His second coming. The reason I say this, is because verse 1 states about things which must shortly come to pass, and verse 7 happens to be one of those things. So that would have to put the time of John's vision before the ascension of Christ. That makes no sense to me. If that's not what you're implying, then why would John be writing about things that shall shortly come to pass, if they had already come to pass? What would be the point in that? If you put verse 7 during Christ's time on earth, then you must also put verse 1 during that time. And besides, verse 5 clearly contradicts your interpretation of verse 7.

Revelation 1:5 *And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Obviously verse 5 is referring to after His ressurection from the dead. And verse 1 is speaking of things that must shortly come to pass, and John definately penned the book of Rev well after Christ's ascension, meaning that your interpretation of verse 7 cannot be correct.

markdrums
Feb 27th 2008, 10:48 PM
I'm sorry, but your logic makes absolutely no sense to me at all. When do you think John penned the book of Revelation? Wouldn't you agree that it was after Christ had already died, ressurrected, and since acendended back unto heaven?

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

If I'm reading you correctly, it's almost as if you are saying that John penned the book of Revelation before Christ's ascension, because you claim verse 7 was referring to that time and not His second coming. The reason I say this, is because verse 1 states about things which must shortly come to pass, and verse 7 happens to be one of those things. So that would have to put the time of John's vision before the ascension of Christ. That makes no sense to me. If that's not what you're implying, then why would John be writing about things that shall shortly come to pass, if they had already come to pass? What would be the point in that? If you put verse 7 during Christ's time on earth, then you must also put verse 1 during that time. And besides, verse 5 clearly contradicts your interpretation of verse 7.

Revelation 1:5 *And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Obviously verse 5 is referring to after His ressurection from the dead. And verse 1 is speaking of things that must shortly come to pass, and John definately penned the book of Rev well after Christ's ascension, meaning that your interpretation of verse 7 cannot be correct.


There are 2 opinions on the writing of Revelation:
1- around 67 AD or so, & the other around 92 AD. (BOTH after Christ had been crucified.)

John would be speaking of events after Jesus' ascension either way.
JESUS also spoke of events that would take place after he was Crucified.
John's vision correlates with that.

I'm not sure why you thought it sounded like I was inferring it was while he was still on Earth.... But THAT WOULD'VE been an error for sure!!
;)

But, Revelation 1:7 WASN'T speaking of The "RETURN / Second Coming" of Christ, at the Rapture... It was speaking about his VINDICATION as TRUE KING,... Because "those who pierced him" would have to see the event written of....

honcho
Feb 28th 2008, 12:19 AM
markdrums
There are 2 opinions on the writing of Revelation:
1- around 67 AD or so, & the other around 92 AD. (BOTH after Christ had been crucified.)


Rev 2:13 NIV
I know where you live -- where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city -- where Satan lives.

Both dates of 67 AD and 92 AD are incorrect. Most scholars say Revelation was written 95 AD. "Antipas was martyred in 92 AD" before John was sent to Patmos. It would be impossible for John to know of his death in 67 AD. He had to know it before he went to Patmos.

White Spider
Feb 28th 2008, 12:46 AM
I must say, I've been through this argument with Christian's and non-christian's alike.

My personal opinion has come to be the following:

Hope it's pre-trib so you do not have to face the tribulation, but make sure you understand what will happen if you are caught in tribulation so you are not deceived and turned away from God.

Matthew 10:33 -> But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (KJV)

Matthew 10:33 -> But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven. (NLT)

You don't want to deny Him and be deceived because you were unprepared. And do not think just because Christ is with you you are immune to deception.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 -> For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (KJV)

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 -> The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. (NIV)

As I said, hope for a pre-trib, but prepare for a post-trib as to keep yourself from being deceived.

Firstfruits
Feb 28th 2008, 08:43 AM
Looking at context, Acts does give us a preview of being "taken up / caught up".

However, in Revelation 1:7, the context has nothing to do with being taken up, nor is it about Jesus "returning" as in his "second coming".

THIS is talking about "Even those who pierced him" will see him in his glory. Those who pierced him (nailing him to the cross) have long since passed away. They DID see him "come in clouds with power & glory".
Coming in clouds, in this instance has the same meaning as it did in Exodus 16 & Exodus 40, AND Ezekiel 10:4.
The "clouds" are a symbol of God's Glory.

The Olivet Discourse ALSO uses clouds in 2 different contexts.
ONE, being "a symbol of power & glory" (Which was the fulfillment of the disciples seeing him, as was written...)
And TWO, describing his "return", which will include US being "taken up".

You can't associate the word clouds with "returning" every time you see it.
Otherwise, you change the context of Exd 40:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd040.html#34) - Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
To associate "clouds" here the way you are, the meaning changes & you would be saying,"The cloud covered the tent of the congregation, & the glory of the Lord Returned / took up / Raptured the tabernacle. (tent)
That wouldn't make sense....
Instead of God FILLING the tabernacle (tent) with his Glory, he Raptured the tent??? (not the "people" but the actual tent.....)

I know Jesus will RETURN (ie Second Coming) in the same manner in which the disciples saw him ascend to Heaven... but these other references to clouds aren't describing that.

In Acts he is going, and in Revelation he is coming.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye shall see him. Do you expect to see him when he comes back?

And they also which pierced him. Are you one that pierced him?

And all kindreds of the earth. If you are here at his return, will you not be in this group?

David Taylor
Feb 28th 2008, 01:20 PM
Most scholars say Revelation was written 95 AD. "Antipas was martyred in 92 AD" before John was sent to Patmos. It would be impossible for John to know of his death in 67 AD. He had to know it before he went to Patmos.


Two things here.

Saying 'most scholars' is misleading, whether you intended to do this or not.

1 single contemporary of that period, Irenaeus, made a comment on John's Apocalpyse. Depending on how Irenaeus' comment is translated and received, it could mean John wrote Revelation in 95ish AD, or it could mean Irenaeus wrote his letter (which talked about John) in 95ish AD.

The passage itself is vague and inconclusively unclear.

All other scholars who cite the late-date, are just repeating Irenaeus.

So there isn't alot of ancient independant scholarly verification of the late date; it is just one that stuck in the RCC and was prepetuated throughout the ages as tradition.

It may be right; but there aren't alot of 1st and 2nd century scholars who state this is so; only a vague Irenaeus.

2ndly, I have asked, and haven't see anyone cite yet, and ancient historical documents that tell us the 'Antipas' in Rev 2 is the same 'Antipas' that died in 92 AD that RCC tradition delivers to us today.

There was some citations of Herod Antipas, (who lived during the time of the N.T. writing) given by a board member, but none for a different Antipas living in 92 A.D. being the same one John wrote about.

From my investigation of the Early church writings, only Tertullian mentions an 'Antipas' that is not Herod, and is the one mentioned in Revelation by Jjhn. But Tertullian's citation only paraphrases Revelation 2, and doesn't give any timeline citation to clarify this dating.

Both the dating of Revelation itself; and the dating of Antipas from chapter 2, are inconclusive and lacking from the historical record in clear, undoubtable fashion.

None of us should adamantly advance either view, because neither view is airtight and clearly corroberated either by the biblical or historical account; and each require alot of historical study; to come to the conclusion; that the answer is still vague and unclear.

markdrums
Feb 28th 2008, 01:43 PM
In Acts he is going, and in Revelation he is coming.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye shall see him. Do you expect to see him when he comes back?

And they also which pierced him. Are you one that pierced him?

And all kindreds of the earth. If you are here at his return, will you not be in this group?


Again,
"Coming with clouds does not always mean "Returning / Rapture / Second Coming". In Revelation 1:7, this is NOT the "Rapture".

Also, You have even pointed out for yourself, that those who would see him in this context would include "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM".
Knowing full well, that everyone associated with nailing Jesus to the cross is now DEAD, how can REV 1:7 be an event that is still in the future?

Firstfruits
Feb 28th 2008, 02:17 PM
Again,
"Coming with clouds does not always mean "Returning / Rapture / Second Coming". In Revelation 1:7, this is NOT the "Rapture".

Also, You have even pointed out for yourself, that those who would see him in this context would include "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM".
Knowing full well, that everyone associated with nailing Jesus to the cross is now DEAD, how can REV 1:7 be an event that is still in the future?

With regards to Revelation 1:7 does it mean coming?

With regards to your second point, according to Jesus when he comes everyone shall see him, because all shall be raised from the dead, even those that pierced him.
Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; And they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So you see, every eye shall see him when he comes.

markdrums
Feb 28th 2008, 05:45 PM
With regards to Revelation 1:7 does it mean coming?

With regards to your second point, according to Jesus when he comes everyone shall see him, because all shall be raised from the dead, even those that pierced him.
Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; And they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So you see, every eye shall see him when he comes.

Revelation 1:7 does not mean "coming" as in "Coming back / Rapture".
It means his power & glory will be seen by the destruction that would soon come upon Jerusalem.
This verse in Revelation ties in with the Olivet Discourse.

Now, in Matthew 23,
Pay attention to WHOM Jesus is speaking directly to in these passages.... (... That would be the Pharisees)
MAT 23:27 - 36

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

NOT a future generation 2000 years later.

Firstfruits
Feb 28th 2008, 07:18 PM
Revelation 1:7 does not mean "coming" as in "Coming back / Rapture".
It means his power & glory will be seen by the destruction that would soon come upon Jerusalem.
This verse in Revelation ties in with the Olivet Discourse.

Now, in Matthew 23,
Pay attention to WHOM Jesus is speaking directly to in these passages.... (... That would be the Pharisees)
MAT 23:27 - 36

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

NOT a future generation 2000 years later.

With regards to the question asked, the temple may have been destroyed, but Jesus has not come and the world has not ended as per their question.
Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The bible say that the world ends on the day of the Lord, so since the world is still here this cannot have been fulfilled.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Do you have any scriptures that would explain the way Jesus was taken into heaven and coming as he was seen to go?

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
What is this describing, if it is not Christ coming or the rapture, what do you say it is?

markdrums
Feb 28th 2008, 07:38 PM
With regards to the question asked, the temple may have been destroyed, but Jesus has not come and the world has not ended as per their question.
Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The bible say that the world ends on the day of the Lord, so since the world is still here this cannot have been fulfilled.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Do you have any scriptures that would explain the way Jesus was taken into heaven and coming as he was seen to go?

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
What is this describing, if it is not Christ coming or the rapture, what do you say it is?

The translation in CONTEXT of Matthew 24 actually means, "End of the AGE". (Not "world" as in Planet, or planetary destruction.0

Jesus was referring to the "End of the Old Testament Sacrificial Age".

Besides, The problem with a Rapture, followed by seven year tribulation, followed by a literal 1000 year earthly reign, would have been given in your own reply.
"The bible say that the world ends on the day of the Lord,....."

If The "World / Planet ends when Jesus "returns" how can there be a 1000 year reign with sinners still alive?

Again,
Jesus was NOT talking about his "RETURN" in the verses you provide.
He was talking about Vindication, & judgement on Jerusalem with destruction that would come not long after his crucifixion.

The people who PIERCED him, AND the disciples, all saw Jesus "come with clouds, having great power & Glory".

He didn't "return" (in the way you're thinking of....)
He brought judgement.

divaD
Feb 28th 2008, 07:46 PM
There are 2 opinions on the writing of Revelation:
1- around 67 AD or so, & the other around 92 AD. (BOTH after Christ had been crucified.)

John would be speaking of events after Jesus' ascension either way.
JESUS also spoke of events that would take place after he was Crucified.
John's vision correlates with that.

I'm not sure why you thought it sounded like I was inferring it was while he was still on Earth.... But THAT WOULD'VE been an error for sure!!
;)

But, Revelation 1:7 WASN'T speaking of The "RETURN / Second Coming" of Christ, at the Rapture... It was speaking about his VINDICATION as TRUE KING,... Because "those who pierced him" would have to see the event written of....



Not that I'm in agreement with your interpretation of Rev 1:7, but since you explained your position, I can now more clearly see what you were implying.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

Don't you think it's possible that the way those that pierced Him would see Him, would be at their resurrection? Don't all get resurrected eventually?

Firstfruits
Feb 28th 2008, 07:49 PM
The translation in CONTEXT of Matthew 24 actually means, "End of the AGE". (Not "world" as in Planet, or planetary destruction.0

Jesus was referring to the "End of the Old Testament Sacrificial Age".

Besides, The problem with a Rapture, followed by seven year tribulation, followed by a literal 1000 year earthly reign, would have been given in your own reply.
"The bible say that the world ends on the day of the Lord,....."

If The "World / Planet ends when Jesus "returns" how can there be a 1000 year reign with sinners still alive?

Again,
Jesus was NOT talking about his "RETURN" in the verses you provide.
He was talking about Vindication, & judgement on Jerusalem with destruction that would come not long after his crucifixion.

The people who PIERCED him, AND the disciples, all saw Jesus "come with clouds, having great power & Glory".

He didn't "return" (in the way you're thinking of....)
He brought judgement.

Well this sripture says it is destroyed when he come back.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

There is only one judgment day, and that is when he returns at the day of the Lord.

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 01:24 AM
Well this sripture says it is destroyed when he come back.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

There is only one judgment day, and that is when he returns at the day of the Lord.

EXACTLY!!! ;)

That's why The Olivet Discourse (Most of it anyway..) & Most of Revelation deals with things that HAVE been fulfilled.

John writes that "these things must SOON take place"... And to be TRUE to the word of God, they HAD to take place "soon". Not thousands of years later.

Jesus tells his disciples that "Their generation" would see the things he described. THEY would see him "coming with clouds, having great power & Glory".

He COULD NOT have been talking about "The very End" or his "Second Coming"... because that is "JUDGMENT DAY" (as you even stated) The day that he "RETURNS" is the LAST / FINAL day.

So, how can anyone assume "Coming with clouds" (in the verses you've previously given...over & over) means "Jesus' RETURN"????
That's NOT what he meant, & that's NOT what he was saying. That's also NOT how we're supposed to interpret it.

Your quote of 2 Peter 3:10 DOES describe the "RETURN, END, FINAL FULFILLMENT"..... But it's not in the same context as the rest of what you've asked about.
They are of different contextual basis.

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 03:45 AM
The translation in CONTEXT of Matthew 24 actually means, "End of the AGE". (Not "world" as in Planet, or planetary destruction.0

Jesus was referring to the "End of the Old Testament Sacrificial Age".

I disagree. He was not referring to the "End of the Old Testament Sacrificial Age". That was made obsolete at the cross. He was referring to the end of this temporal age, which we are still in. Jesus talked several times about "this age" and "the age to come". He was not speaking in terms of the "Old Testament Sacrificial age" and the New Testament age. He was speaking in terms of this temporary age of the earth and the eternal age of the new earth to come. Read Luke 20:34-35. In this temporal age, people marry and are given in marriage. In the age to come, that will no longer be the case. If the end of the age occurred in 70 AD, then please explain how the following parables were fulfilled back then ("end of the world" = "end of the age (aion)":

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. - Matthew 13:24-30,37-43

How is this not referring to the resurrection of the dead since it says both the wheat (believers) and tares (unbelievers) grow together until the harvest, which is the end of the age? At that time the unbelievers will be cast into a furnace of fire (the lake of fire). Believers will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The kingdom that Christ delivers up to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:23-24). The kingdom that believers inherit on the day of judgment (Matt 25:34).

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:47-50

Again, this parable says that only when the net is FULL do the angels separate the wicked from the just at the end of the age and just as the parable of the wheat and tares illustrates, they cast the unbelievers into the furnace of fire. That is exactly what happens on the day of judgment after all the dead are resurrected and all people are gathered before the throne (Matt 25:31-46). The unbelievers are cast into everlasting fire and punishment (Matt 25:41,46) and believers inherit the Father's kingdom and eternal life (Matt 25:34,46).

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 04:19 AM
I disagree. He was not referring to the "End of the Old Testament Sacrificial Age". That was made obsolete at the cross. He was referring to the end of this temporal age, which we are still in. Jesus talked several times about "this age" and "the age to come". He was not speaking in terms of the "Old Testament Sacrificial age" and the New Testament age. He was speaking in terms of this temporary age of the earth and the eternal age of the new earth to come. Read Luke 20:34-35. In this temporal age, people marry and are given in marriage. In the age to come, that will no longer be the case. If the end of the age occurred in 70 AD, then please explain how the following parables were fulfilled back then ("end of the world" = "end of the age (aion)":

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. - Matthew 13:24-30,37-43

How is this not referring to the resurrection of the dead since it says both the wheat (believers) and tares (unbelievers) grow together until the harvest, which is the end of the age? At that time the unbelievers will be cast into a furnace of fire (the lake of fire). Believers will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The kingdom that Christ delivers up to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:23-24). The kingdom that believers inherit on the day of judgment (Matt 25:34).

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:47-50

Again, this parable says that only when the net is FULL do the angels separate the wicked from the just at the end of the age and just as the parable of the wheat and tares illustrates, they cast the unbelievers into the furnace of fire. That is exactly what happens on the day of judgment after all the dead are resurrected and all people are gathered before the throne (Matt 25:31-46). The unbelievers are cast into everlasting fire and punishment (Matt 25:41,46) and believers inherit the Father's kingdom and eternal life (Matt 25:34,46).

Yes, End of the (sacrificial) age WAS made obsolete AT THE CROSS!
However, it wasn't an INSTANT transition with the people of the Earth... was it? For a couple decades after the Crucifixion, people STILL insisted on making sacrifices, and following the "old laws / traditions" which WERE FULFILLED in Jesus.

Q: What was Jesus pointing to while speaking to his disciples, when they exited the temple & went up to the mount?
A: The temple itself & the surrounding buildings.
When he said "Every stone shall be upturned from another..." he meant exactly that, with the coming destruction.

When he said "THEIR GENERATION" would see these things as a sign of "the end", what "end" was he referring to?
Obvoiusly NOT the "Second Coming"...... Because THAT hasn't happened yet;
But, Jesus said THEY would SEE these things before some of THEM would taste death.

Your confusion lies in assuming everything written within a chapter, or even a couple chapters, ALL refers to the same thing within a certain "future time period" where prophecy is concerned.

Jesus was speaking of "NEAR future judgment / fulfillment" in one section, but further revealing the FINAL fulfillment (Types & Shadows being illustrated againby our Savior) in the next. Just as the entire Bible has Always shown us.

Also, The Harvest..... (Wheat & Tares parable)
How many people pay CLOSE attention? What is the order sequence of events?
Let's examine:
The UN-just are taken FIRST!!! (which you even shared with us.... & most people never realize)
"in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them......"

CONTEXT.....
CONTEXT.....
Not EVERY MENTION of "coming" refers to "THE RETURN".

Why must people insist on combining passages from separate subjects, & try to impose a specific meaning to them, and link them all together??
Just because it appears in the same "chapter" doesn't always mean it's from the same day... or of the same immediate subject.

The Olivet discourse was NOT all in one day, withing the same sitting, all about the same subject....
The Bible also isn't laid out for us in exact chronological order....
(Look at Genesis 1, & then genesis 2)
Sometimes we first get the outline, & then come back with a more detailed explanation... or puting it another way,
First, we see the "preview" (Old Testament / Types and Shadows) THEN we see the fulfillment......

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 05:05 AM
Well this sripture says it is destroyed when he come back.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

There is only one judgment day, and that is when he returns at the day of the Lord.

While I'm thinking about it....
I would LOVE & appreciate it, if you would actually take some time and explain IN YOUR OWN words, what it is that you're trying to point out.
Not just ask a series of questions, or make a few (generic) statements, followed up with a slew of selected verses, which don't always have the same context as you assume they do...
Every time you cite scripture, you tend to grab verses that "sound similar" in wordage... but if you were to take the surrounding verses into consideration, you would see that they don't always refer to the same things...

For Instance:
Isiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
This has NO connection to Jesus "RETURNING" at the Rapture / Last Day. It's a metaphoric, symbolic description of JUDGMENT that would come unto Egypt.... much like the destruction / judgment that would befall Jerusalem shortly after Jesus' crucifixion. (within 40 or so years)
In fact, Think about this; Many Christians believe Jesus was 30 yrs old at his crucifixion.... The TEMPLE was destroyed in 70 AD. (If my Math skills are correct, that would be 40 years..)
Hmmmm... have we ever seen the number 40 in the Bible? Is there any significance with that number?
40 days / 40 nights... Rain... Flood..Noah...
40 days / 40 nights... Jesus tempted...
40 years, wandering in the desert..... etc....
Is it just coincidence the Temple was destroyed 40 years after Jesus was crucified???

So again, I'll ask....
What (in YOUR own words) is it that you're trying to point out?
What makes you believe "coming on clouds" always means "RAPTURE"?
Why would you think the disciples DIDN'T "see those things in THEIR generation" even though Jesus said they would?
When John said in Revelation, "These things must SOON take place", how (in your own words) could that mean 2000 years later?

And how could a Pre-Trib Rapture, followed by seven years of tribulation, followed by 1000 years of Jesus "literally" reigning on Earth, (While sinners and JEWS are still around; and some of them being saved) make any sense at all?

How can the RAPTURE be "THE End" of the world / Planet if sinners are still here, AND somehow they get "ONE MORE chance for salvation"??
According to scripture, When Christ RETURNS (once & for all at the rapture) there ARE NO MORE chances. That's It!! It's Judgment Day!

THat is PRESISELY why a "Pre-Trib" rapture with a "Literal 1000 year Earthly Reign" doesn't make sense, and is completely unbiblical.

So, tying this thread back into it's original "context"... That's the problem.

AND.... Again.....
I would LOVE to know what Firstfruits really thinks about this.

********IMPORTANT SIDE NOTE********

To Firstfruits, (or others, who I may be addressing indirectly with this post)
Please don't think I'm attacking you.... I'm really just trying to get to the heart of your beliefs.... I might disagree about "eschatology issues" with you... but I DO KNOW that BOTH of us understand where SALVATION comes from, & we ARE all Brothers / Sisters in Christ.

I get very passionate & BOLD when I'm discussing The Word. And sometimes I get a little carried away.

***************************************

God Bless you all!

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 09:34 AM
While I'm thinking about it....
I would LOVE & appreciate it, if you would actually take some time and explain IN YOUR OWN words, what it is that you're trying to point out.
Not just ask a series of questions, or make a few (generic) statements, followed up with a slew of selected verses, which don't always have the same context as you assume they do...
Every time you cite scripture, you tend to grab verses that "sound similar" in wordage... but if you were to take the surrounding verses into consideration, you would see that they don't always refer to the same things...

For Instance:
Isiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
This has NO connection to Jesus "RETURNING" at the Rapture / Last Day. It's a metaphoric, symbolic description of JUDGMENT that would come unto Egypt.... much like the destruction / judgment that would befall Jerusalem shortly after Jesus' crucifixion. (within 40 or so years)
In fact, Think about this; Many Christians believe Jesus was 30 yrs old at his crucifixion.... The TEMPLE was destroyed in 70 AD. (If my Math skills are correct, that would be 40 years..)
Hmmmm... have we ever seen the number 40 in the Bible? Is there any significance with that number?
40 days / 40 nights... Rain... Flood..Noah...
40 days / 40 nights... Jesus tempted...
40 years, wandering in the desert..... etc....
Is it just coincidence the Temple was destroyed 40 years after Jesus was crucified???

So again, I'll ask....
What (in YOUR own words) is it that you're trying to point out?
What makes you believe "coming on clouds" always means "RAPTURE"?
Why would you think the disciples DIDN'T "see those things in THEIR generation" even though Jesus said they would?
When John said in Revelation, "These things must SOON take place", how (in your own words) could that mean 2000 years later?

And how could a Pre-Trib Rapture, followed by seven years of tribulation, followed by 1000 years of Jesus "literally" reigning on Earth, (While sinners and JEWS are still around; and some of them being saved) make any sense at all?

How can the RAPTURE be "THE End" of the world / Planet if sinners are still here, AND somehow they get "ONE MORE chance for salvation"??
According to scripture, When Christ RETURNS (once & for all at the rapture) there ARE NO MORE chances. That's It!! It's Judgment Day!

THat is PRESISELY why a "Pre-Trib" rapture with a "Literal 1000 year Earthly Reign" doesn't make sense, and is completely unbiblical.

So, tying this thread back into it's original "context"... That's the problem.

AND.... Again.....
I would LOVE to know what Firstfruits really thinks about this.

********IMPORTANT SIDE NOTE********

To Firstfruits, (or others, who I may be addressing indirectly with this post)
Please don't think I'm attacking you.... I'm really just trying to get to the heart of your beliefs.... I might disagree about "eschatology issues" with you... but I DO KNOW that BOTH of us understand where SALVATION comes from, & we ARE all Brothers / Sisters in Christ.

I get very passionate & BOLD when I'm discussing The Word. And sometimes I get a little carried away.

***************************************

God Bless you all!

Not everything that Jesus prophesied was to be fulfilled in their time, but everything that Jesus and the prophets will be fulfilled, ie 2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You cannot say this has been fulfilled since it happens at the seventh trumpet.

This answers the questions that the disciples asked Jesus concerning his coming and the end of the world.

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 11:34 AM
Not everything that Jesus prophesied was to be fulfilled in their time, but everything that Jesus and the prophets will be fulfilled, ie 2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You cannot say this has been fulfilled since it happens at the seventh trumpet.

This answers the questions that the disciples asked Jesus concerning his coming and the end of the world.

I din't say "The Rapture" has happened. The "Rapture" IS on the last day.
(as I said before.) And after the "Rapture" takes place there will not be another temple, with reinstituted sacrifices.

All the things Jesus said WOULD BE fulfilled within THEIR generation, WERE fulfilled.
He never said "the rapture" would happen during their generation... only his "Coming with clouds"... which was a metaphor used to describe his power & glory.... but didn't mean "The Rapture".

elijah1383
Feb 29th 2008, 02:34 PM
If todays saints didnt manipulate our Lords word a pre rapture could have been possible..... 1 john 5:13 ask and you shall receive but todays saints havent repented and the fruit from the Olive tree is not being passed out.

divaD
Feb 29th 2008, 03:03 PM
only his "Coming with clouds"... which was a
metaphor used to describe his power & glory


I'm trying my best to follow what you are saying. So could you provide Scripture for when this metaphor as you call it, occured? An approximate date in history would be nice.

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 03:17 PM
I din't say "The Rapture" has happened. The "Rapture" IS on the last day.
(as I said before.) And after the "Rapture" takes place there will not be another temple, with reinstituted sacrifices.

All the things Jesus said WOULD BE fulfilled within THEIR generation, WERE fulfilled.
He never said "the rapture" would happen during their generation... only his "Coming with clouds"... which was a metaphor used to describe his power & glory.... but didn't mean "The Rapture".

How would you explain the following scriptures?

Mt 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

2 Pet 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2 Pet 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Has Christs promise concerning his coming/day of the Lord, been fulfilled?

According to Peter the earth will be destroyed when Jesus comes.

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 03:46 PM
How would you explian the following scriptures?

Mt 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

2 Pet 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2 Pet 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Has Christs promise concerning his coming/day of the Lord, been fulfilled?

According to Peter the earth will be destroyed when Jesus comes.


Here's Another illustration of "Appearing in CLOUDS".... & why it DOESN'T ALWAYS mean RAPTURE / RETURN.

LEV. 16: 1-2 1. Now the Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the Lord, and died; 2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Lev&chapter=16&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=13#) and the Lord said to Moses: "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.

Question: What does this have to do with RAPTURE?
Answer: Nothing.

Just because you read the phrase "coming in clouds - appearing in clouds- coming with clouds...."etc. you can't FORCE a meaning of Rapture into it.

Jesus was NOT speaking of his FINAL RETURN when he said to the disciples, "YOU will see these things"... "THIS generation shall not pass until these things be fulfilled."

Just as the example in Leviticus 16 points out, The appearance in clouds demonstrates the GLORY of God. It has nothing to do with being caught up or raptured.

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 03:51 PM
I'm trying my best to follow what you are saying. So could you provide Scripture for when this metaphor as you call it, occured? An approximate date in history would be nice.

Sure...
Check LEV 16:1 *it's in my previous post*
The context is atonement & sacrifice.... not the rapture.

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 04:06 PM
Here's Another illustration of "Appearing in CLOUDS".... & why it DOESN'T ALWAYS mean RAPTURE / RETURN.

LEV. 16: 1-2 1. Now the Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the Lord, and died; 2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Lev&chapter=16&translation=nkjvp&x=9&y=13#) and the Lord said to Moses: "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.

Question: What does this have to do with RAPTURE?
Answer: Nothing.

Just because you read the phrase "coming in clouds - appearing in clouds- coming with clouds...."etc. you can't FORCE a meaning of Rapture into it.

Jesus was NOT speaking of his FINAL RETURN when he said to the disciples, "YOU will see these things"... "THIS generation shall not pass until these things be fulfilled."

Just as the example in Leviticus 16 points out, The appearance in clouds demonstrates the GLORY of God. It has nothing to do with being caught up or raptured.

I am asking if when Jesus comes as Peter said he will on "the day of the Lord", does he not mean coming? Please note I have not mentioned clouds.

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 04:16 PM
I am asking if when Jesus comes as Peter said he will on "the day of the Lord", does he not mean coming? Please note I have not mentioned clouds.

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Nowhere in 2 Peter does it say Jesus is "coming" or "Returning".
The "Day of the Lord" in proper context refers to Judgment. This was speaking of the soon approaching judgment that would fall upon Jerusalem, causing the destruction of the temple.
It doesn't mean the second coming / rapture.

The "Day of the Lord" has been used numerous times in scripture to indicate judgment. It's not JUST about ONE future event.... It refers to ANY TIME judgment is going to happen.

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 04:27 PM
Nowhere in 2 Peter does it say Jesus is "coming" or "Returning".
The "Day of the Lord" in proper context refers to Judgment. This was speaking of the soon approaching judgment that would fall upon Jerusalem, causing the destruction of the temple.
It doesn't mean the second coming / rapture.

The "Day of the Lord" has been used numerous times in scripture to indicate judgment. It's not JUST about ONE future event.... It refers to ANY TIME judgment is going to happen.

2 Pet 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2 Pet 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What is the Lords promise?

was Peter not speaking about the Lords return?

Heb 10:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

I have just read "wake up People" and saw your scriptures are they not all to do with when Jesus returns, and judgment?

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 05:15 PM
2 Pet 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2 Pet 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What is the Lords promise?

was Peter not speaking about the Lords return?

Heb 10:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

I have just read "wake up People" and saw your scriptures are they not all to do with when Jesus returns, and judgment?


What I'm trying to point out is, The "Day of the Lord" doesn't ALWAYS mean "the LAST / FINAL Day / RETURN of Jesus / Rapture".
It indicates Judgment in general.
There are verses in the Old Testsment that say "The Day of the Lord" is at Hand.... but they don't mean "RETURN of Jesus / Rapture"... (which is still to come.)

Zephaniah Chapter 1 talks about judgment coming because of Baal worship in those days.
Yes, "The Day of the Lord" is also used in reference to "The LAST DAY" when Jesus DOES return, & JUDGE the unrighteous....

But you have to discern the difference in meaning, by reading the CONTEXT of the verses.

:)

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 08:34 PM
What I'm trying to point out is, The "Day of the Lord" doesn't ALWAYS mean "the LAST / FINAL Day / RETURN of Jesus / Rapture".
It indicates Judgment in general.
There are verses in the Old Testsment that say "The Day of the Lord" is at Hand.... but they don't mean "RETURN of Jesus / Rapture"... (which is still to come.)

Zephaniah Chapter 1 talks about judgment coming because of Baal worship in those days.
Yes, "The Day of the Lord" is also used in reference to "The LAST DAY" when Jesus DOES return, & JUDGE the unrighteous....

But you have to discern the difference in meaning, by reading the CONTEXT of the verses.

:)

This however is about the return of the Lord, and since the rapture takes place at Christs return, and when judgment takes place.
2 Pet 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2 Pet 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is the end, the last day.

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 09:31 PM
This however is about the return of the Lord, and since the rapture takes place at Christs return, and when judgment takes place.
2 Pet 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2 Pet 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is the end, the last day.

YES!!! :)
THAT refers to the " second COMING / RETURN" of Jesus.
We know by the context.... and the mention of New Heavens & New Earth.

But, many of the other examples that have been given before, were about the events that were to happen in 70 AD, with judgment & the destruction of the temple, & end of the "Sacrificial Age".

Firstfruits
Mar 1st 2008, 10:29 AM
YES!!! :)
THAT refers to the " second COMING / RETURN" of Jesus.
We know by the context.... and the mention of New Heavens & New Earth.

But, many of the other examples that have been given before, were about the events that were to happen in 70 AD, with judgment & the destruction of the temple, & end of the "Sacrificial Age".

With the understanding that Peter was refering to what Jesus promised them concerning his coming and the end of the world, then would you agree that this was not fulfilled in the apostle Peters generation?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is Peters understanding of what Christ has promised concerning his return, so this was definately a prophecy for a future generation.

markdrums
Mar 2nd 2008, 01:54 AM
With the understanding that Peter was refering to what Jesus promised them concerning his coming and the end of the world, then would you agree that this was not fulfilled in the apostle Peters generation?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is Peters understanding of what Christ has promised concerning his return, so this was definately a prophecy for a future generation.


Hey FirstFruits,
I think you're confusing the "Rapture / Last Day" picture that Peter is describing, with the "Olivet Discourse" when Jesus is describing the events that would take place just before, & during the Destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.... which DID occur, and was fulfilled in 70 AD.

There were "NEAR FUTURE" prophecies to be fulfilled during the "generation of the disciples", as well as a (separate) description of the "Last Day / Rapture" judgment of the entire world.

The examples you gave from 2 Peter WERE describing the "Very End".... but in the previous verses you've provided from the Gospels & Revelation, the context wasn't "The Rapture", but instead, was describing the event s that would be taking place shortly after, (& were fulfilled in 70 AD.)

I hope that helps you understand what I'm pointing out to you.
:)

Firstfruits
Mar 2nd 2008, 11:13 AM
Hey FirstFruits,
I think you're confusing the "Rapture / Last Day" picture that Peter is describing, with the "Olivet Discourse" when Jesus is describing the events that would take place just before, & during the Destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.... which DID occur, and was fulfilled in 70 AD.

There were "NEAR FUTURE" prophecies to be fulfilled during the "generation of the disciples", as well as a (separate) description of the "Last Day / Rapture" judgment of the entire world.

The examples you gave from 2 Peter WERE describing the "Very End".... but in the previous verses you've provided from the Gospels & Revelation, the context wasn't "The Rapture", but instead, was describing the event s that would be taking place shortly after, (& were fulfilled in 70 AD.)

I hope that helps you understand what I'm pointing out to you.
:)

Are you saying that when Peter spoke of Jesus's promise of his coming, was not according to Christ's promise concerning his coming that Jesus said to them, are the therefore two promises that Christ promised regarding his return?

markdrums
Mar 3rd 2008, 01:58 PM
Are you saying that when Peter spoke of Jesus's promise of his coming, was not according to Christ's promise concerning his coming that Jesus said to them, are the therefore two promises that Christ promised regarding his return?


No, Not two "Returns".... Just ONE.
However, When Jesus spoke of the disciples seeing "these things fulfilled" & described the "Coming with clouds, having great power & Glory", he was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, & the temple, & the end of the sacrificial age.... not the "Second Coming on the Last Day".

The verses in 2 Peter you shared, ARE describing the RETURN of Jesus on the Last day.

Firstfruits
Mar 3rd 2008, 04:08 PM
No, Not two "Returns".... Just ONE.
However, When Jesus spoke of the disciples seeing "these things fulfilled" & described the "Coming with clouds, having great power & Glory", he was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, & the temple, & the end of the sacrificial age.... not the "Second Coming on the Last Day".

The verses in 2 Peter you shared, ARE describing the RETURN of Jesus on the Last day.

So according to the following Jesus was not talking about his return?

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.

Why would the tribes of the earth mourn if the temple was destroyed since those not in the area would not be affected and anyone in the temple would only have to leave?

Zeph 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Zeph 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zeph 1:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zeph 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zeph 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

markdrums
Mar 3rd 2008, 04:36 PM
So according to the following Jesus was not talking about his return?

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.

Why would the tribes of the earth mourn if the temple was destroyed since those not in the area would not be affected and anyone in the temple would only have to leave?

Zeph 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Zeph 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zeph 1:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zeph 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zeph 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.


Right, Jesus was not talking about his "RETURN" on the final day, in the 2 verses in Matthew 24 you shared.
Look at the verses that come before those, & see the context.

Matthew 24: 1 - And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 - And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Then in verse 3, they ask for the signs of when the temple & buildings will be destroyed... which would be the "end of the world". (Remember however, that "End of the world" translates in this instance as "End of the "age"... being the age of sacrifices" & not the very end of all things).

Also, Zephaniah 1 isn't describing "Last Days" prophecy / events. The context here is God's Judgment upon those people in Jerusalem who were worshiping idols....

1 The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.

2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.

3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked: and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.

4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;

It's not describing events related to Revelation. It's a warning to Jerusalem, & the people in the days when Zephaniah was alive.
Notice the reference to Baal.... this helps give us a time-frame for the prophecy.

Firstfruits
Mar 3rd 2008, 04:48 PM
Right, Jesus was not talking about his "RETURN" on the final day, in the 2 verses in Matthew 24 you shared.
Look at the verses that come before those, & see the context.

Matthew 24: 1 - And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 - And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Then in verse 3, they ask for the signs of when the temple & buildings will be destroyed... which would be the "end of the world". (Remember however, that "End of the world" translates in this instance as "End of the "age"... being the age of sacrifices" & not the very end of all things).

Also, Zephaniah 1 isn't describing "Last Days" prophecy / events. The context here is God's Judgment upon those people in Jerusalem who were worshiping idols....

1 The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.

2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.

3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked: and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.

4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;

It's not describing events related to Revelation. It's a warning to Jerusalem, & the people in the days when Zephaniah was alive.
Notice the reference to Baal.... this helps give us a time-frame for the prophecy.

There is only one return of Christ, so if according to their question;
Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Were the disciples asking about his return, and did he not answer them concerning his return?

markdrums
Mar 3rd 2008, 04:58 PM
There is only one return of Christ, so if according to their question;
Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Were the disciples asking about his return, and did he not answer them concerning his return?

No, I don't believe the disciples were asking about Jesus' "Return" / at the Rapture on the Last Day;
Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed, & the end of the world (meaning end of the age) would come.
After Jesus tolod them THEY would see the destruction of the temple & surrounding buildings, they asked him what the signs would be for that event.

The reference to "Coming with clouds having geat power and Glory" again, has biblical history. It was often used to describe Judgment, & showing the Power & Glory of God.... not necessarily speaking of "returning".

Firstfruits
Mar 3rd 2008, 05:07 PM
No, I don't believe the disciples were asking about Jesus' "Return" / at the Rapture on the Last Day;
Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed, & the end of the world (meaning end of the age) would come.
After Jesus tolod them THEY would see the destruction of the temple & surrounding buildings, they asked him what the signs would be for that event.

The reference to "Coming with clouds having geat power and Glory" again, has biblical history. It was often used to describe Judgment, & showing the Power & Glory of God.... not necessarily speaking of "returning".

With regards to the following what is the promise Peter was refering to, when did Jesus make this promise?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

markdrums
Mar 3rd 2008, 05:26 PM
With regards to the following what is the promise Peter was refering to, when did Jesus make this promise?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There were both "NEAR FUTURE" prophecies to be fulfilled during the "generation of the disciples", (Destruction of the temple - end of sacrificial age)
as well as a (separate) description of the "Last Day / Rapture" judgment of the entire world.

The examples you gave from 2 Peter WERE describing the "Very End"....
but in the previous verses you've provided from the Gospels & Revelation, the context wasn't "The Rapture", but instead, was describing the event s that would be taking place shortly after, (& were fulfilled in 70 AD.)

So, YES, 2 Peter (as listed above) is describing things that are still yet to come, & still waiting to be fulfilled.

Firstfruits
Mar 3rd 2008, 07:54 PM
There were both "NEAR FUTURE" prophecies to be fulfilled during the "generation of the disciples", (Destruction of the temple - end of sacrificial age)
as well as a (separate) description of the "Last Day / Rapture" judgment of the entire world.

The examples you gave from 2 Peter WERE describing the "Very End"....
but in the previous verses you've provided from the Gospels & Revelation, the context wasn't "The Rapture", but instead, was describing the event s that would be taking place shortly after, (& were fulfilled in 70 AD.)

So, YES, 2 Peter (as listed above) is describing things that are still yet to come, & still waiting to be fulfilled.

My question is what was the promise of Jesus that Peter was refering to?

When did Jesus make this promise?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,

markdrums
Mar 3rd 2008, 08:40 PM
My question is what was the promise of Jesus that Peter was refering to?

When did Jesus make this promise?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,

2 Peter IS speaking of OUR resurrection upon the promised return of Jesus. Jesus promised he WILL come again. .......On the last day, when ALL will rise from the grave to stand before the Lord, some to eternal life, others to be eternally condemned.

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 08:39 AM
2 Peter IS speaking of OUR resurrection upon the promised return of Jesus. Jesus promised he WILL come again. .......On the last day, when ALL will rise from the grave to stand before the Lord, some to eternal life, others to be eternally condemned.

When did Jesus make this promise, when did Jesus tell the disciples these things?

markdrums
Mar 4th 2008, 12:43 PM
When did Jesus make this promise, when did Jesus tell the disciples these things?

First of all, you have to remember Jesus didn't make promises ONLY to his disciples, he made them to everyone.
Read John chapter 5. It talks about Jesus meeting the man who couldn't walk, at the "healing pool" Bethesda.
After healing him & commanding him to rise, people are amazed....
Here's what Jesus tells them:
John 5:28 - 29 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 01:34 PM
First of all, you have to remember Jesus didn't make promises ONLY to his disciples, he made them to everyone.
Read John chapter 5. It talks about Jesus meeting the man who couldn't walk, at the "healing pool" Bethesda.
After healing him & commanding him to rise, people are amazed....
Here's what Jesus tells them:
John 5:28 - 29 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.



Concerning the promise of his coming would you agree that it involves the whole earth, with regards to the scripture you have given?

John 5:28 - 29 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

So when did Jesus make the promise to his disciples, concerning his return, since Peter is explaining what is to be fulfilled?

markdrums
Mar 4th 2008, 02:16 PM
Concerning the promise of his coming would you agree that it involves the whole earth, with regards to the scripture you have given?

John 5:28 - 29 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#)Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=14&y=7#) and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

So when did Jesus make the promise to his disciples, concerning his return, since Peter is explaining what is to be fulfilled?

Yes. This is for the WHOLE world.

Are you asking about the Promis mentioned in 2 Peter, chapter 3? (If so, you already answered your own question when you shared those verses.... at least part of the question anyway).

What are you wondering about concerning Jesus' Return? Between both of us over the last few posts, we've pretty much answered those questions.

;)

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 02:27 PM
Yes. This is for the WHOLE world.

Are you asking about the Promis mentioned in 2 Peter, chapter 3? (If so, you already answered your own question when you shared those verses.... at least part of the question anyway).

What are you wondering about concerning Jesus' Return? Between both of us over the last few posts, we've pretty much answered those questions.

;)

I am not asking about what is mentioned in 2 peter, but where in the scriptures did Jesus speak of his return to the disciples in order for Peter to speak of it in 2 Peter 3.

This has so far not been answered in the last few posts.

This is in regard to the disciples questions.

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

markdrums
Mar 4th 2008, 03:21 PM
I am not asking about what is mentioned in 2 peter, but where in the scriptures did Jesus speak of his return to the disciples in order for Peter to speak of it in 2 Peter 3.

This has so far not been answered in the last few posts.

This is in regard to the disciples questions.

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

I gotcha!!
I don't know if the Bible specifically mentions exactly when & where Jesus told that to Peter. I'll have to look a little deeper. What I DO know is, Peter thought it was important enough to write about.
:)

The desciples questions in Matthew 24 were in regards to the temple being destroyed, & the end of the "age". (sacrificial age)
Jesus mentions "coming with clouds". He didn't say he would "RETURN", or "COME to STAY" in this context. He wasn't speaking of "The Last Day" when all will rise from their graves.... He was talking about Everyone would know HE was / IS the messiah, & they would see & understand his power & Glory as validation, and vindication.

Be sure you don't confuse the different events that were spoken & written about. Not every prophecy in the Bible was to be taken as FAR-Future fulfillment, dealing with thousands of years later.
That's the case in Matthew 24. It's not about "End Times / Rapture / Last Day / RETURN" of Jesus. It was about the end of the sacrificial age & the temple being destroyed.

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 07:06 PM
I gotcha!!
I don't know if the Bible specifically mentions exactly when & where Jesus told that to Peter. I'll have to look a little deeper. What I DO know is, Peter thought it was important enough to write about.
:)

The desciples questions in Matthew 24 were in regards to the temple being destroyed, & the end of the "age". (sacrificial age)
Jesus mentions "coming with clouds". He didn't say he would "RETURN", or "COME to STAY" in this context. He wasn't speaking of "The Last Day" when all will rise from their graves.... He was talking about Everyone would know HE was / IS the messiah, & they would see & understand his power & Glory as validation, and vindication.

Be sure you don't confuse the different events that were spoken & written about. Not every prophecy in the Bible was to be taken as FAR-Future fulfillment, dealing with thousands of years later.
That's the case in Matthew 24. It's not about "End Times / Rapture / Last Day / RETURN" of Jesus. It was about the end of the sacrificial age & the temple being destroyed.

If the disciples question was in regards to the destruction of the temple and the end of the age why did his answer include the following?

Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 24:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Doesn't the world end when Jesus Returns?

Was Jesus talking about more than just the destruction of the temple and the end of the age?

Is this the promise that Peter spoke of in 2 Peter 3

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 07:12 PM
I gotcha!!
I don't know if the Bible specifically mentions exactly when & where Jesus told that to Peter. I'll have to look a little deeper. What I DO know is, Peter thought it was important enough to write about.
:)

The desciples questions in Matthew 24 were in regards to the temple being destroyed, & the end of the "age". (sacrificial age)
Jesus mentions "coming with clouds". He didn't say he would "RETURN", or "COME to STAY" in this context. He wasn't speaking of "The Last Day" when all will rise from their graves.... He was talking about Everyone would know HE was / IS the messiah, & they would see & understand his power & Glory as validation, and vindication.

Be sure you don't confuse the different events that were spoken & written about. Not every prophecy in the Bible was to be taken as FAR-Future fulfillment, dealing with thousands of years later.
That's the case in Matthew 24. It's not about "End Times / Rapture / Last Day / RETURN" of Jesus. It was about the end of the sacrificial age & the temple being destroyed.

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?

Paul

John146
Mar 4th 2008, 07:35 PM
Isn't it interesting to see the confusion that comes about when a futurist argues with a preterist? I believe both fail to see that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus spoke both about what would occur in 70 AD and at the end of the age when He would return. The end of the age has not yet occurred. The wheat and the tares (believers and unbelievers) grow together UNTIL the harvest, which is the end of the age, and that is when they are then resurrected for judgment and separated with the wheat/believers inheriting the eternal kingdom and the tares/unbelievers being cast into the furnace of fire/lake of fire. That has not yet occurred. Jesus said to make disciples of all nations and that He would be with us until the end of the age. Obviously, we are still making disciples so the end of the age has not yet occurred. However, the temple buildings of which Jesus said would be destroyed with no stone left upon another were indeed destroyed just as He foretold and that occurred in 70 AD.

markdrums
Mar 5th 2008, 12:41 AM
Isn't it interesting to see the confusion that comes about when a futurist argues with a preterist? I believe both fail to see that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus spoke both about what would occur in 70 AD and at the end of the age when He would return. The end of the age has not yet occurred. The wheat and the tares (believers and unbelievers) grow together UNTIL the harvest, which is the end of the age, and that is when they are then resurrected for judgment and separated with the wheat/believers inheriting the eternal kingdom and the tares/unbelievers being cast into the furnace of fire/lake of fire. That has not yet occurred. Jesus said to make disciples of all nations and that He would be with us until the end of the age. Obviously, we are still making disciples so the end of the age has not yet occurred. However, the temple buildings of which Jesus said would be destroyed with no stone left upon another were indeed destroyed just as He foretold and that occurred in 70 AD.

LOL!! Good points given.

I wouldn't classify myself as a "Preterist"... not a full-blown preterist anyway, even though I do agree on several topics with that outlook.
I'd describe it more like a blend of "partial preterist, partial futurist, Amillennialist (in the sense of the literal 1000 year Earthly Reign) NON-Dispensationalist.
Basically trying to be EXEGETICAL, and STILL learning!
:D

I do believe that much of Revelation & the Olivet Discourse have been fulfilled. But Jesus has NOT "come / returned" a second time yet. THAT is still yet to happen.

But I DO think a lot of people try to impose a "far-future" emphasis on too many prophecies. (Including most of the context of the Gospels, & Revelation.... by trying to tie-in Isaiah, Ezekiel, & Daniel.)

Firstfruits
Mar 5th 2008, 12:32 PM
LOL!! Good points given.

I wouldn't classify myself as a "Preterist"... not a full-blown preterist anyway, even though I do agree on several topics with that outlook.
I'd describe it more like a blend of "partial preterist, partial futurist, Amillennialist (in the sense of the literal 1000 year Earthly Reign) NON-Dispensationalist.
Basically trying to be EXEGETICAL, and STILL learning!
:D

I do believe that much of Revelation & the Olivet Discourse have been fulfilled. But Jesus has NOT "come / returned" a second time yet. THAT is still yet to happen.

But I DO think a lot of people try to impose a "far-future" emphasis on too many prophecies. (Including most of the context of the Gospels, & Revelation.... by trying to tie-in Isaiah, Ezekiel, & Daniel.)

Wth regards to one of you earlier posts;

"No, I don't believe the disciples were asking about Jesus' "Return" / at the Rapture on the Last Day;
Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed, & the end of the world (meaning end of the age) would come.
After Jesus tolod them THEY would see the destruction of the temple & surrounding buildings, they asked him what the signs would be for that event."

Are you saying then that when Jesus answered the disciples he was also refering to his return / rapture/ end of the world, at the last day?

wpm
Mar 5th 2008, 04:58 PM
Mark

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?

Paul

markdrums
Mar 5th 2008, 05:57 PM
Mark

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?

Paul

My understanding of this would be;
The OLD Covenant would have been "in force" so to speak, until the resurrection. At that point the New (Blood) Covenant was complete.

The destruction of the temple put a complete end to the sacrificial practice, & temple worship which was still being carried out by the Jews.

Jesus was asked about "the end of the world" (aiōn) meaning "age" :
Not about the "end of the world" (kosmos) meaning physical world / planet.

wpm
Mar 5th 2008, 07:09 PM
My understanding of this would be;
The OLD Covenant would have been "in force" so to speak, until the resurrection. At that point the New (Blood) Covenant was complete.

The destruction of the temple put a complete end to the sacrificial practice, & temple worship which was still being carried out by the Jews.

Jesus was asked about "the end of the world" (aiōn) meaning "age" :
Not about the "end of the world" (kosmos) meaning physical world / planet.

I too am Amil. From my understanding of the references to the end of the aiōn it seems to be be referring to the end of time. When the Bible refers to the periods before and after the cross/resurrection they are known as old and new covenant/testament times.

Paul

markdrums
Mar 5th 2008, 08:30 PM
I too am Amil. From my understanding of the references to the end of the aiōn it seems to be be referring to the end of time. When the Bible refers to the periods before and after the cross/resurrection they are known as old and new covenant/testament times.

Paul

That makes sense.
I have also heard it described as the "end of the age of corruption".... which seems to be a good description too.

The use of the word aiōn instead of "kosmos" was one of the clues that helped me understand it wasn't referring to the "Earth / Planet, but a "time period".

;)

Diggindeeper
Mar 6th 2008, 03:57 AM
That makes sense.
I have also heard it described as the "end of the age of corruption".... which seems to be a good description too.

The use of the word aiōn instead of "kosmos" was one of the clues that helped me understand it wasn't referring to the "Earth / Planet, but a "time period".

;)

Well, as far as it meaning the "end of the age of corruption", I cannot agree with that. No, the corruption is probably as bad, if not even WORSE, than in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah! Who was it that said if things got any worse (or more corrupted) then we would have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah?

They did not even have pornographic videos, DVD's, TV, movies, the internet, and probably not even schools that promote what they should not!

finewine
Mar 6th 2008, 05:34 AM
I am currently hold a post-trib rapture / classic pre-millennial viewpoint, but am looking for answers from those with a pre-tribulation rapture point of view.

There are several passages in Revelation that I find difficult to explain from a pre-trib standpoint. How to you reconcile these apparent difficulties?

One of the classic proof texts for pre-tribulation rapture is the letter to the church of Philadelphia, particularly Revelation 3:10.

'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
(Revelation 3:10 NASB)

This is taken to mean that faithful believers will be raptured prior to the judgments detailed in the book of Revelation. However I find this difficult to reconcile with the letter to Smyrna, the only other church which is only commended and not rebuked.


"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
(Revelation 2:8-11 NASB)

In this passage it is clear that they will be martyred in the tribulation rather than taken out of it. Because of the narrow context of the letters to the churches of Asia minor I find it difficult to interpret this letter as only for the historical believers of the church in Smyrna while interpreting the letter to the church of Philadelphia as a for all believers. It seems to me both letters must be either only for the particular historical church as faithful believers cannot be martyred in the tribulation and raptured prior to the tribulation.

Opinions?

My opinion is you are in the wrong book for rapture evidence.
I wrote a post on my pretrib stance (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1562481#post1562481) in the other thread "Is There a Rapture".

In the time frame of events there will be believers martyred in the tribulation.
These are those who believe during the tribulation because of the witness of the 144,000.
These are not those of us who are believers before the tribulation.

There is no conflict as I see it.

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 09:00 AM
Wth regards to one of you earlier posts;

"No, I don't believe the disciples were asking about Jesus' "Return" / at the Rapture on the Last Day;
Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed, & the end of the world (meaning end of the age) would come.
After Jesus tolod them THEY would see the destruction of the temple & surrounding buildings, they asked him what the signs would be for that event."

Are you saying then that when Jesus answered the disciples he was also refering to his return / rapture/ end of the world, at the last day?

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Is what he told them not in direct response to their question?

Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 24:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

markdrums
Mar 6th 2008, 10:16 AM
Wth regards to one of you earlier posts;

"No, I don't believe the disciples were asking about Jesus' "Return" / at the Rapture on the Last Day;
Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed, & the end of the world (meaning end of the age) would come.
After Jesus tolod them THEY would see the destruction of the temple & surrounding buildings, they asked him what the signs would be for that event."

Are you saying then that when Jesus answered the disciples he was also refering to his return / rapture/ end of the world, at the last day?

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Is what he told them not in direct response to their question?

Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 24:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Firstly,
Jesus was asked about "the end of the world" (aiōn) meaning "age" :
Not about the "end of the world" (kosmos) meaning physical world / planet.

Secondly,
When you read or give examples of passages, it's a good idea to read ALL of them for CONTEXT... instead of skipping over some of them for the sake of picking what sounds like it fits.

**EXAMPLE**
The disciples asked the question in VERSE 3....
BUT... YOU skip over 33 verses to tell me Jesus' "DIRECT" answer????
How does THAT work????

Jesus' DIRECT RESPONSE starts in verse 4.

Then an interesting transition takes place in the conversation, & Jesus changes the context..... pay attention to the way he ties it in.

Mat 24:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=34&version=kjv#34)Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(the words "you" and "This" were spoken directly to the disciples, because Jesus meant THEM, not us.)

Now the transition......

Mat 24:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=35&version=kjv#35)Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

NOW insert your example of Jesus' answer you shared - Verse 36.



Remember, It's all about CONTEXT........

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 11:44 AM
Firstly,
Jesus was asked about "the end of the world" (aiōn) meaning "age" :
Not about the "end of the world" (kosmos) meaning physical world / planet.

Secondly,
When you read or give examples of passages, it's a good idea to read ALL of them for CONTEXT... instead of skipping over some of them for the sake of picking what sounds like it fits.

**EXAMPLE**
The disciples asked the question in VERSE 3....
BUT... YOU skip over 33 verses to tell me Jesus' "DIRECT" answer????
How does THAT work????

Jesus' DIRECT RESPONSE starts in verse 4.

Then an interesting transition takes place in the conversation, & Jesus changes the context..... pay attention to the way he ties it in.

Mat 24:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=34&version=kjv#34)Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(the words "you" and "This" were spoken directly to the disciples, because Jesus meant THEM, not us.)

Now the transition......

Mat 24:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=35&version=kjv#35)Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

NOW insert your example of Jesus' answer you shared - Verse 36.



Remember, It's all about CONTEXT........

With all that Jesus said to the disciples in Matthew 24:1-51, was it not in reply to their questions?

Was Jesus talking about his return, and therefore the end of this world?

Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 24:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Was this not included in Jesus's reply?

markdrums
Mar 6th 2008, 12:34 PM
With all that Jesus said to the disciples in Matthew 24:1-51, was it not in reply to their questions?

Was Jesus talking about his return, and therefore the end of this world?

Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 24:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Was this not included in Jesus's reply?


Here's how Matthew 24 goes:
Verses 1 - 34 are a direct response to the question of when the temple would be destroyed...
Verse 35 is a transitional statement. Jesus is now directing the attention of his disciples to His "RETURN / Rapture / Last Day." This is when he begins to describe it.

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 01:36 PM
Here's how Matthew 24 goes:
Verses 1 - 34 are a direct response to the question of when the temple would be destroyed...
Verse 35 is a transitional statement. Jesus is now directing the attention of his disciples to His "RETURN / Rapture / Last Day." This is when he begins to describe it.

According to the following,what is the event that no man knows the day and the hour?

Mt 24:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Would you say that verse 36 refers to what went before and then verse 37 continues what he explained before, according to the context of what is said?

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

markdrums
Mar 6th 2008, 01:54 PM
According to the following,what is the event that no man knows the day and the hour?

Mt 24:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Would you say that verse 36 refers to what went before and then verse 37 continues what he explained before, according to the context of what is said?

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Exactly! ;)
Verses 1-34 deal with the subject of the temple & the buildings being destroyed
Verse 35 indicates a change in context, & Jesus begins to explain "Heaven & Earth passing away"... which will happen at his "RETURN".
From Verse 36 & beyond, Jesus is describing the Rapture, which is when ".....ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 02:40 PM
Exactly! ;)
Verses 1-34 deal with the subject of the temple & the buildings being destroyed
Verse 35 indicates a change in context, & Jesus begins to explain "Heaven & Earth passing away"... which will happen at his "RETURN".
From Verse 36 & beyond, Jesus is describing the Rapture, which is when ".....ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

With regards to their question;

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Would you agree then, that the following is Jesus explaining the sign of his coming and the end of the earth?

Mt 24:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) For as in the days that were beFore the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mt 24:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And knew not until the flood came, And took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Then shall two be in The field; The one shall be taken, and The oTher left.
Mt 24:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Where do verses 27/30 fit in to what Jesus said concerning his coming?

Mt 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Also these;

Mt 25:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Is Jesus describing the same event of his coming?

markdrums
Mar 6th 2008, 03:06 PM
With regards to their question;

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Would you agree then, that the following is Jesus explaining the sign of his coming and the end of the earth?

Mt 24:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) For as in the days that were beFore the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mt 24:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And knew not until the flood came, And took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Then shall two be in The field; The one shall be taken, and The oTher left.
Mt 24:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Where do verses 27/30 fit in to what Jesus said concerning his coming?

Mt 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Also these;

Mt 25:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Is Jesus describing the same event of his coming?


Not quite....
Remember- Jesus was asked about "the end of the world" (aiōn) meaning "age" :
Not about the "end of the world" (kosmos) meaning physical world / planet.

Also remember "Coming with Clouds" is an Old Testament metaphor that represents God's Glory, & Power, & is often connected to Judgment. It doesn't mean "RETURN" in this instance.
Jesus is describing the judgment & destruction that will happen to Jerusalem, & explaining "not one stone will be left upon another...."

Look at Isa 19:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa019.html#1) The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

What is the message here?
Not a Rapture / Return;
....because First of all, Jesus had not come to Earth yet. This was MANY years before the birth of Christ.
Also, it's describing Judgment on Egypt and destruction of their idols...

"Coming with Clouds" in MT 24:30 has the same meaning as Isa 19:1.

Jesus is describing 2 different events / times in this chapter.

The 1st 34 verses describe judgment.
After that, Jesus begins to describe his "RETURN" as you're thinking of.

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 03:53 PM
Not quite....
Remember- Jesus was asked about "the end of the world" (aiōn) meaning "age" :
Not about the "end of the world" (kosmos) meaning physical world / planet.

Also remember "Coming with Clouds" is an Old Testament metaphor that represents God's Glory, & Power, & is often connected to Judgment. It doesn't mean "RETURN" in this instance.
Jesus is describing the judgment & destruction that will happen to Jerusalem, & explaining "not one stone will be left upon another...."

Look at Isa 19:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa019.html#1) The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

What is the message here?
Not a Rapture / Return;
....because First of all, Jesus had not come to Earth yet. This was MANY years before the birth of Christ.
Also, it's describing Judgment on Egypt and destruction of their idols...

"Coming with Clouds" in MT 24:30 has the same meaning as Isa 19:1.

Jesus is describing 2 different events / times in this chapter.

The 1st 34 verses describe judgment.
After that, Jesus begins to describe his "RETURN" as you're thinking of.

When Jesus says so shall the coming of the Son of man be, as used here, is he speaking of his second coming?

Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mt 25:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

markdrums
Mar 6th 2008, 04:37 PM
When Jesus says so shall the coming of the Son of man be, as used here, is he speaking of his second coming?

Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mt 25:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


I'll show you the difference:
(Be sure to read each of these chapters in their entirety to understand what's happening when these verses are being said.)

Yes-
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. This is describing "the RETURN / RAPTURE / Second Coming.

No-
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. This is still describing judgment & destruction of the temple. (the first 34 verses of chapter 24)

Yes-
Mt 25:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Jesus IS talking about his RETURN here...

No-
Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Jesus is speaking to Caiaphas & the court who sentenced him to be crucified. This context here is Judgment.

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 07:42 PM
I'll show you the difference:
(Be sure to read each of these chapters in their entirety to understand what's happening when these verses are being said.)

Yes-
Mt 24:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. This is describing "the RETURN / RAPTURE / Second Coming.

No-
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. This is still describing judgment & destruction of the temple. (the first 34 verses of chapter 24)

Yes-
Mt 25:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Jesus IS talking about his RETURN here...

No-
Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Jesus is speaking to Caiaphas & the court who sentenced him to be crucified. This context here is Judgment.

Thanks for those, but what about this one?

Mt 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

From what you have written you only have one which you say is no, because as you will agree, the last one being judgment is at the return of Jesus.

Will there be two tribulations, which shall be shortened for the elects sake, and what would that have to do with the destruction of the temple?

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 08:03 PM
With regarding the following is this the end of the world, and is it the same as the end of the age?

Mt 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

markdrums
Mar 6th 2008, 08:53 PM
With regarding the following is this the end of the world, and is it the same as the end of the age?

Mt 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


First let's llok at this one:
Mt 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
In context, this is still referring to judgment & the destruction of the temple. It's in the first 34 verses of chapter 24...

The examples in Matthew 13 you gave ARE about the "Rapture" when Crist returns.
Jesus is talking about the "Wheat & Tares" and "The Harvest/ or Gathering" is the Rapture / Resurrection of EVERYONE. (Which Jesus also described in John 5:28-29 when he said "ALL who are in the grave will rise...."

It DOES get confusing sometimes when you read "Coming" in one verse, & again in another.... because it doesn't always have the same meaning. (The same thing with "End of the world")
To fully understand the context, we have to read the corresponding verses that let us know what's actually going on, or what someone is talking about.

So when Jesus is describing the Kingdom & "The Harvest," we know "End of the world" means the actual End of Time....

Firstfruits
Mar 7th 2008, 08:55 AM
First let's llok at this one:
Mt 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
In context, this is still referring to judgment & the destruction of the temple. It's in the first 34 verses of chapter 24...

The examples in Matthew 13 you gave ARE about the "Rapture" when Crist returns.
Jesus is talking about the "Wheat & Tares" and "The Harvest/ or Gathering" is the Rapture / Resurrection of EVERYONE. (Which Jesus also described in John 5:28-29 when he said "ALL who are in the grave will rise...."

It DOES get confusing sometimes when you read "Coming" in one verse, & again in another.... because it doesn't always have the same meaning. (The same thing with "End of the world")
To fully understand the context, we have to read the corresponding verses that let us know what's actually going on, or what someone is talking about.

So when Jesus is describing the Kingdom & "The Harvest," we know "End of the world" means the actual End of Time....

With regards to the following Jesus say that the harvest is the end of the age;
Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (age)
Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world:(age) the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
If therefore the disciples understood that the end of the age was also when Jesus returned, would their question be according to what Jesus had previously told them about the harvest and the end of the age/world?

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 11:20 AM
With regards to the following Jesus say that the harvest is the end of the age;
Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (age)
Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world:(age) the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
If therefore the disciples understood that the end of the age was also when Jesus returned, would their question be according to what Jesus had previously told them about the harvest and the end of the age/world?


The context of the conversation is what tells us the difference.
If you automatically assume a certain word or phrase always means the exact same thing, or exact same event then you'll run into problems.

For instance: When the LORD appears in clouds, what does it mean? Is it always "Coming / Returning / the Rapture?"
Let's try that with Exodus....

Exd 16:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=16&verse=9&version=kjv#9)¶And Moses spake unto Aaron, Say unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, Come near before the LORD: for he hath heard your murmurings.
Exd 16:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=16&verse=10&version=kjv#10)And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

So, every time you read "End of the world" or The "Lord appeared in clouds" it MUST be the Rapture....? Aaron & Moses & their congregation were Raptured back in Exodus?

I don't believe that's the case.
I think we have to understand the context properly.

Firstfruits
Mar 7th 2008, 11:29 AM
The context of the conversation is what tells us the difference.
If you automatically assume a certain word or phrase always means the exact same thing, or exact same event then you'll run into problems.

For instance: When the LORD appears in clouds, what does it mean? Is it always "Coming / Returning / the Rapture?"
Let's try that with Exodus....

Exd 16:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=16&verse=9&version=kjv#9)¶And Moses spake unto Aaron, Say unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, Come near before the LORD: for he hath heard your murmurings.
Exd 16:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=16&verse=10&version=kjv#10)And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

So, every time you read "End of the world" or The "Lord appeared in clouds" it MUST be the Rapture....? Aaron & Moses & their congregation were Raptured back in Exodus?

I don't believe that's the case.
I think we have to understand the context properly.

I am reffering to what Christ said to the disciples and their understanding of the end of the age/world.

Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (age)
Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world:(age) the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

If therefore the disciples understood that the end of the age was also when Jesus returned, would their question be according to what Jesus had previously told them about the harvest and the end of the age/world?

Jesus told them that the harvest is the end of the age/world.

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 04:12 PM
I am reffering to what Christ said to the disciples and their understanding of the end of the age/world.

Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (age)
Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world:(age) the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

If therefore the disciples understood that the end of the age was also when Jesus returned, would their question be according to what Jesus had previously told them about the harvest and the end of the age/world?

Jesus told them that the harvest is the end of the age/world.

I think I understand what you're asking...

In Matthew 24, the disciples asked Jesus when would "the end of the age" come, right after he showed them the temple & said it would be destroyed. The question was asked about the immediate subject at hand.... which was the temple being destroyed.

Jesus explained the "signs" that would alert them that the destruction would be near.
After he tells them they would see these things in their life, he then moves on to describe "The Harvest".
He tells the disciples they would know when the destruction would be close, but concerning the "Harvest"...... he said "No man knows the hour."

What he was saying was, You'll know when the judgment & destruction are about to take place, but as far as his "Return / & the Rapture / Harvest" NOBODY will know. Only GOD knows that time.

So he was giving them 2 different events & explaining the difference.

Firstfruits
Mar 7th 2008, 04:22 PM
I think I understand what you're asking...

In Matthew 24, the disciples asked Jesus when would "the end of the age" come, right after he showed them the temple & said it would be destroyed. The question was asked about the immediate subject at hand.... which was the temple being destroyed.

Jesus explained the "signs" that would alert them that the destruction would be near.
After he tells them they would see these things in their life, he then moves on to describe "The Harvest".
He tells the disciples they would know when the destruction would be close, but concerning the "Harvest"...... he said "No man knows the hour."

What he was saying was, You'll know when the judgment & destruction are about to take place, but as far as his "Return / & the Rapture / Harvest" NOBODY will know. Only GOD knows that time.

So he was giving them 2 different events & explaining the difference.

What you have said applies to both events because no one knew when the temple would be destroyed except for the signs given by Jesus. The same goes for his return, no one knows when he will return except for the signs Jesus has given. So, no difference.

"What he was saying was, You'll know when the judgment & destruction are about to take place, but as far as his "Return / & the Rapture / Harvest" NOBODY will know. Only GOD knows that time."

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 06:44 PM
What you have said applies to both events because no one knew when the temple would be destroyed except for the signs given by Jesus. The same goes for his return, no one knows when he will return except for the signs Jesus has given. So, no difference.

"What he was saying was, You'll know when the judgment & destruction are about to take place, but as far as his "Return / & the Rapture / Harvest" NOBODY will know. Only GOD knows that time."

The difference would be, The disciples KNEW the temple would be destroyed in THEIR lifetime. They would see it. (and they did)

But...... concerning the Rapture on the last day, NOBODY "knows" if it will be in their lifetime or not.
That's how we are able to realize Jesus was talking about 2 different events, which would happen at 2 different times.

make sense? :)

Firstfruits
Mar 7th 2008, 07:39 PM
The difference would be, The disciples KNEW the temple would be destroyed in THEIR lifetime. They would see it. (and they did)

But...... concerning the Rapture on the last day, NOBODY "knows" if it will be in their lifetime or not.
That's how we are able to realize Jesus was talking about 2 different events, which would happen at 2 different times.

make sense? :)

So are you saying that Jesus was not just talking about events to be fulfilled in their generation but also in a future generation, since Jesus and the harvest, and the end of the age are not yet fulfilled?

Mt 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

markdrums
Mar 7th 2008, 09:24 PM
So are you saying that Jesus was not just talking about events to be fulfilled in their generation but also in a future generation, since Jesus and the harvest, and the end of the age are not yet fulfilled?

Mt 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,



That's exactly it. ;)

There were events to be fulfilled in their lifetime (Destruction of the temple, seeing Jerusalem surrounded..etc.) (MT 24:1-34)That's why Jesus said THEY would see "all these things fulfilled"
AND, the event still yet to come... which would be the Return, / Rapture. (MT 24:35-51)

The Rapture & Resurrection have NOT taken place yet.
The destruction of Jerusalem & the temple DID happen.

:)

wpm
Mar 8th 2008, 02:27 AM
It DOES get confusing sometimes when you read "Coming" in one verse, & again in another.... because it doesn't always have the same meaning. (The same thing with "End of the world")
To fully understand the context, we have to read the corresponding verses that let us know what's actually going on, or what someone is talking about.

So when Jesus is describing the Kingdom & "The Harvest," we know "End of the world" means the actual End of Time....

But when the same wording is used to describe the same event then we should not try to make 2 events out of it. Christ's climactic Coming sees the resurrection/judgment of all.

Paul

markdrums
Mar 8th 2008, 02:56 AM
But when the same wording is used to describe the same event then we should not try to make 2 events out of it. Christ's climactic Coming sees the resurrection/judgment of all.

Paul

Are you talking about "the coming on clouds / coming in the Kingdom / Judgment?" OR the "RETURN" / Rapture?

Because "coming" in Biblical terms, does NOT necessarily mean the Final Resurrection / "Returning".
AND....
If Jesus said the disciples would see those things fulfilled in THEIR lifetime, but the resurrection has not yet happened, (which is hasn't) how can it mean the same event as you're implying?

I see 2 distinct events / discriptions here.
How can you tie them together?; When you know that it would mean at least one of the following explanations:

A: Jesus prophesied, they WOULD see these things. (And either they did & Jesus was correct.) or...
B: They didn't (and Jesus is a false prophet..)
C: What Jesus taught in Matthew 13 & John 5 :28-29 was inaccurate, &/or a lie.

If I said to YOU, the following 2 sentences, (using the "same wording") would you truly think they have the same meaning?
Would you honestly think I was implying the same thing in BOTH of them?

#1.
"I own five cats and dogs".
#2.
"It's raining cats and dogs".

Am I using the same wording? Yes.
Do these 2 things mean the same thing?
That depends on how you interpret it, based on context.

Does the word "clouds" in the Bible automatically mean "RAPTURE"?
Of course not!
Do "cats and dogs" always mean the same thing? Nope.

Could Jesus be talking about 2 different events in the same chapter?
:o

Yes.

What I'm pointing out is, a metaphor is still a metapor... even in the Bible. And the phrase "coming with clouds" (and all the variables of it) was a metaphoric phrase indicating God's Glory, Soveirnty, & often times JUDGMENT.
Verses in the Bible frequently change "immediate subjects / context" within the same chapter.... That's why "context markers" are placed in the scriptures..... You know, those little things that look like this:
" ¶ "

Read Matthew 24 again, & pay attention to these. Notice the placement.

Although the subjects of "immediate & future fulfillment" fall within the same chapter, Jesus separates them from each other; Yet so eloquently ties them together in conversation.

Firstfruits
Mar 8th 2008, 03:52 PM
Are you talking about "the coming on clouds / coming in the Kingdom / Judgment?" OR the "RETURN" / Rapture?

Because "coming" in Biblical terms, does NOT necessarily mean the Final Resurrection / "Returning".
AND....
If Jesus said the disciples would see those things fulfilled in THEIR lifetime, but the resurrection has not yet happened, (which is hasn't) how can it mean the same event as you're implying?

I see 2 distinct events / discriptions here.
How can you tie them together?; When you know that it would mean at least one of the following explanations:

A: Jesus prophesied, they WOULD see these things. (And either they did & Jesus was correct.) or...
B: They didn't (and Jesus is a false prophet..)
C: What Jesus taught in Matthew 13 & John 5 :28-29 was inaccurate, &/or a lie.

If I said to YOU, the following 2 sentences, (using the "same wording") would you truly think they have the same meaning?
Would you honestly think I was implying the same thing in BOTH of them?

#1.
"I own five cats and dogs".
#2.
"It's raining cats and dogs".

Am I using the same wording? Yes.
Do these 2 things mean the same thing?
That depends on how you interpret it, based on context.

Does the word "clouds" in the Bible automatically mean "RAPTURE"?
Of course not!
Do "cats and dogs" always mean the same thing? Nope.

Could Jesus be talking about 2 different events in the same chapter?
:o

Yes.

What I'm pointing out is, a metaphor is still a metapor... even in the Bible. And the phrase "coming with clouds" (and all the variables of it) was a metaphoric phrase indicating God's Glory, Soveirnty, & often times JUDGMENT.
Verses in the Bible frequently change "immediate subjects / context" within the same chapter.... That's why "context markers" are placed in the scriptures..... You know, those little things that look like this:
" ¶ "

Read Matthew 24 again, & pay attention to these. Notice the placement.

Although the subjects of "immediate & future fulfillment" fall within the same chapter, Jesus separates them from each other; Yet so eloquently ties them together in conversation.

With regards to the following;

A: Jesus prophesied, they WOULD see these things. (And either they did & Jesus was correct.) or...
B: They didn't (and Jesus is a false prophet..)
C: What Jesus taught in Matthew 13 & John 5 :28-29 was inaccurate, &/or a lie.

When was the following fulfilled, if it is in regards to the destruction of the temple?

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Remember that according to Jesus the gathering takes place at the end of the age.

Mt 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 13:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mt 13:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

What has gathering to do with the destruction of the temple, which must be fulfilled in their generation?

NeedHim
Mar 8th 2008, 04:43 PM
This is in response to the original posting.
I don't know if this has already been covered, so I'm probably breaking a posting rule. I'm new, so hopefully you can excuse that.

We see that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8). So in regards to the rapture, we must ask ourselves when we study a subject in the Bible, is there any previous revelation in the scriptures that can shed light on this idea? Has there been a situation like the tribulation that was a demonstration of God's Wrath. We see in the torah (penetuch- first five books of the Bible) 2 different examples of God's wrath that show us an idea similar to the rapture.

First we have Sodom and Gomorrah(sp). A perverted city was going to be destroyed by God's wrath, but God was going to rescue His own. Lot was saved from God's wrath.
Second we have the flood. The earth was filled with evil and none were seeking God, except Noah. God spared His people (Noah and his family) from His wrath.

1 Thes 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
1 Thes 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Now let's look at the above verses. They speak about the wrath to come. That could be speaking of Hell, but there is still something to think about here. Has God ever placed His people under His wrath? We must undergo the wrath of men against God, but not God's wrath. It is clear we will undergo trials for our faith in God, but this is not caused by God. The tribulation times will be the wrath of God unleashed on the earth.

Diggindeeper
Mar 9th 2008, 12:54 AM
No. The tribulation is satan's wrath AGAINST anything and anyone Godly.

Never are we promised that we'll escape the wrath of satan, which is the tribulation.

ShirleyFord
Mar 9th 2008, 01:37 AM
No. The tribulation is satan's wrath AGAINST anything and anyone Godly.

Never are we promised that we'll escape the wrath of satan, which is the tribulation.

Amen Judy :)

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


His wrath is poured out on God's people, those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, on those who refuse to worship him and who worship only God.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

NeedHim
Mar 9th 2008, 02:59 AM
No. The tribulation is satan's wrath AGAINST anything and anyone Godly.

Never are we promised that we'll escape the wrath of satan, which is the tribulation.

If I understand the pre-trib view of the scriptures correctly (not that the title of the view is important, but it's the view I believe most accurately represents the scriptures), which is what the original question was about, The second half of the tribulation will have the wrath of God poured out on the earth.

Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

I do understand your point on Satan's wrath through the persecution of the saints, but God's wrath will be poured out on the earth during this time not just Satan's.

ShirleyFord
Mar 9th 2008, 03:53 AM
If I understand the pre-trib view of the scriptures correctly (not that the title of the view is important, but it's the view I believe most accurately represents the scriptures), which is what the original question was about, The second half of the tribulation will have the wrath of God poured out on the earth.

Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

I do understand your point on Satan's wrath through the persecution of the saints, but God's wrath will be poured out on the earth during this time not just Satan's.

God's wrath is always on the ungodly, those who are not His through Christ Jesus, while Satan's wrath is always on the godly, those who belong to God through Christ Jesus.

But Satan's wrath against the true Church will end forever when Christ returns and pours out the wrath of God on anything and everything ungodly and not in Christ.

Praise the Lord!

Shirley

Firstfruits
Mar 11th 2008, 04:28 PM
God's wrath is always on the ungodly, those who are not His through Christ Jesus, while Satan's wrath is always on the godly, those who belong to God through Christ Jesus.

But Satan's wrath against the true Church will end forever when Christ returns and pours out the wrath of God on anything and everything ungodly and not in Christ.

Praise the Lord!

Shirley

If the vials are the wrath of God, then what do the trumpets represent, and upon whom are they directed?