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tgallison
Feb 19th 2008, 05:00 PM
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Grand Master
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgallison http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1543920#post1543920)
Nigel greetings

You are condemning me with out just cause.

I'm not condemning you - but I believe YOU are condemning Job without just cause! You are calling him an unforgiven sinner!

Quote:
Do not want to derail this thread.
But YOU were the one who launched in with an attack on Job!

Quote:
So instead of comparing Job to Balaam, how about Job to Satan.
That WILL derail the thread!
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tgallison
Feb 19th 2008, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgallison http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1543920#post1543920)
Nigel greetings

You are condemning me with out just cause.

I'm not condemning you - but I believe YOU are condemning Job without just cause! You are calling him an unforgiven sinner!

Quote:
Do not want to derail this thread.
But YOU were the one who launched in with an attack on Job!

Quote:
So instead of comparing Job to Balaam, how about Job to Satan.
That WILL derail the thread!
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1543930)

Note the comparisons between Job and Satan.

1. There was no one like them.

2. They were perfect and without fault.

One was from heaven and one was from earth.

Job 1:8 "And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

Can you see the comparison. God is asking Satan to look at a picture of himself before he fell.

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

terrell

threebigrocks
Feb 19th 2008, 05:43 PM
Difference between the two - Job has hope in the promise. Satan is already eternally damned. Job is a picture of us.

ImmenseDisciple
Feb 19th 2008, 06:50 PM
Job accepted God's right to treat him however He chose - even at his very lowest, he wished he hadn't been born rather than speaking against God. satan thought he knew better than God, and tried to defy His perfect will rather than accepting His authority.

tgallison
Feb 19th 2008, 07:46 PM
Difference between the two - Job has hope in the promise. Satan is already eternally damned. Job is a picture of us.

Yes, but their start was the same, though one heavenly and one earthly.

terrell

tgallison
Feb 19th 2008, 07:56 PM
Job accepted God's right to treat him however He chose - even at his very lowest, he wished he hadn't been born rather than speaking against God. satan thought he knew better than God, and tried to defy His perfect will rather than accepting His authority.

ImmenseDisciple

We must have two different Books.

Job 34:9 "For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God."

Job 34:17 "Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?"

Israel condemned God when they crucified him.

terrell

RogerW
Feb 19th 2008, 08:48 PM
Note the comparisons between Job and Satan.

1. There was no one like them.

2. They were perfect and without fault.

One was from heaven and one was from earth.

Job 1:8 "And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

Can you see the comparison. God is asking Satan to look at a picture of himself before he fell.

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

terrell

The comparison would only fit 'if' one believes that Ez 28:15 is speaking of Satan. I for one do not. This perfect one is called "the anointed cherub" in vs 14. Satan is not a cherub. A cherub is defined as an imaginary figure. Cherubims were used in the decoration of the temple, and two cherubims covered the mercy seat. Certainly Satan is more than an imaginary figure, and I doubt that God would use a dipiction of Satan to adorn His holy temple.

Many Blessings,
RW

tgallison
Feb 19th 2008, 10:23 PM
The comparison would only fit 'if' one believes that Ez 28:15 is speaking of Satan. I for one do not. This perfect one is called "the anointed cherub" in vs 14. Satan is not a cherub. A cherub is defined as an imaginary figure. Cherubims were used in the decoration of the temple, and two cherubims covered the mercy seat. Certainly Satan is more than an imaginary figure, and I doubt that God would use a dipiction of Satan to adorn His holy temple.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger Greetings

He was full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. He was in the garden of God. He was perfect from the day he was created, until iniquity was found in him. His heart was lifted up because of his beauty and his wisdom was corrupted because of his brightness. God will bring forth a fire from within that will devour him.

And again in Ezekiel chapter 31 he is described again. No tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. Because his heart was lifted up in his height, he shall be cast down to hell with all them that dwelt under his shadow.

I do not believe he is an imagination.

terrell

TrustGzus
Feb 19th 2008, 11:02 PM
The comparison would only fit 'if' one believes that Ez 28:15 is speaking of Satan. I for one do not. This perfect one is called "the anointed cherub" in vs 14. Satan is not a cherub. A cherub is defined as an imaginary figure. Cherubims were used in the decoration of the temple, and two cherubims covered the mercy seat. Certainly Satan is more than an imaginary figure, and I doubt that God would use a dipiction of Satan to adorn His holy temple.

Many Blessings,
RWGreetings Roger,

Where do you find cherub defined as an imaginary figure? While cherubim certainly were used in decoration of the temple and covered the mercy seat, there's evidence that they weren't merely imaginary figures. Webster's doesn't define it that way.

cher•ub \ˈcher-əb\ noun

plural usually cher•u•bim \ˈcher-ə-ˌbim, ˈker- also ˈcher-yə-\

[Latin, from Greek cheroub, from Hebrew kĕrūbh]

(13th century)

1 plural : an order of angels — see celestial hierarchy

2 plural usually cherubs

a : a beautiful usually winged child in painting and sculpture

b : an innocent-looking usually chubby and rosy person
Merriam-Webster, I. (1996, c1993). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (10th ed.). Springfield, Mass., U.S.A.: Merriam-Webster.Bible dictionaries don't define it that way either. Did God place imaginary figures to guard the Garden?
So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ge 3:24). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.


In addition to that, does the character in Ezekiel 28, be it Satan or someone else, sound like an imaginary figure? The imaginary figure sins. The imaginary figure's heart was lifted up. God judges the imaginary figure. Sounds kind of weird.

Grace & peace,

Joe

RogerW
Feb 20th 2008, 12:46 AM
Roger Greetings

He was full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. He was in the garden of God. He was perfect from the day he was created, until iniquity was found in him. His heart was lifted up because of his beauty and his wisdom was corrupted because of his brightness. God will bring forth a fire from within that will devour him.

And again in Ezekiel chapter 31 he is described again. No tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. Because his heart was lifted up in his height, he shall be cast down to hell with all them that dwelt under his shadow.

I do not believe he is an imagination.

terrell

Greetings Terrell,

The king of Tyrus, a man, is being castigated by God for being created in the image of God as righteous, but has turned from God in his sin, and come under God’s mighty judgment. I believe the king of Tyrus, symbolized as a cherub, rather than representing a fallen angel, i.e. Satan, represents fallen man. Adam (mankind) as he was in the garden before the fall, created in the image of God, but now fallen, in Adam. The king of Tyrus, symbolized as a cherub is fallen man, from the loins of Adam, who can only be restored to the image of God, in the second Adam, which is Christ.

Does the Lord ride upon Satan, and fly? (also Ps 18:10)

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

If Satan is a cherub, would the Shepherd of Israel that leads Joseph like a flock dwell with him?

Ps 80:1 To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

Would the glory of the God of Israel go up from Satan?

Eze 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

Blessings,
RW




Greetings Roger,

Where do you find cherub defined as an imaginary figure? While cherubim certainly were used in decoration of the temple and covered the mercy seat, there's evidence that they weren't merely imaginary figures. Webster's doesn't define it that way.Bible dictionaries don't define it that way either. Did God place imaginary figures to guard the Garden?In addition to that, does the character in Ezekiel 28, be it Satan or someone else, sound like an imaginary figure? The imaginary figure sins. The imaginary figure's heart was lifted up. God judges the imaginary figure. Sounds kind of weird.

Grace & peace,

Joe

Greetings Joe,

Actually I find this definition in the Strong's Concordance:

3742. k@ruwb of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure:--cherub, (plural) cherubims.

Further study also yielded me this: Origin possibly metathesis of the letters for chariot; the figure of a winged creature of depicting beings of celestial origin; a symbol of the guardian of the tree of life in Biblical Eden; a place in Babylon. pl. Cherubim. Also see, Seraphim.

It seems that where cherub or cherubims is used in Scripture it is used to depict the glory of God in some manisfestation, and is intimately related to man.

Many Blessings,
RW

tgallison
Feb 20th 2008, 02:45 AM
[quote=RogerW;1544916]Greetings Terrell,

The king of Tyrus, a man, is being castigated by God for being created in the image of God as righteous, but has turned from God in his sin, and come under God’s mighty judgment. I believe the king of Tyrus, symbolized as a cherub, rather than representing a fallen angel, i.e. Satan, represents fallen man. Adam (mankind) as he was in the garden before the fall, created in the image of God, but now fallen, in Adam. The king of Tyrus, symbolized as a cherub is fallen man, from the loins of Adam, who can only be restored to the image of God, in the second Adam, which is Christ.

Does the Lord ride upon Satan, and fly? (also Ps 18:10)

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

If Satan is a cherub, would the Shepherd of Israel that leads Joseph like a flock dwell with him?

Ps 80:1 To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

Would the glory of the God of Israel go up from Satan?

Eze 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Blessings,
RW[quote]



Roger

The Lexicon definition for cherub is an angelic being. It is obvious from scripture that they are ministering spirits. As to the numbers of them we have no idea.

Not sure what you are saying about Ezekiel 9:3. That there is only one cherub?

As to the king of Tyrus, we know that the kings of earth have a king over them.

He is mentioned in Revelation 9:11 "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit,-----."

We know this king has possession of the kingdoms of this world, by Matthew 4:8-9 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; An saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

We know this king beholds all high things, and is a king over all the children of pride. (Job 41:34)

We have the physical king of Tyrus, and we have the spiritual king of Tyrus. The physical king was not in the garden of Eden, but the spiritual king was.

And like Job he was perfect and blameless until iniquity was found in him.

terrell

RogerW
Feb 20th 2008, 03:09 AM
Roger

The Lexicon definition for cherub is an angelic being. It is obvious from scripture that they are ministering spirits. As to the numbers of them we have no idea.

Not sure what you are saying about Ezekiel 9:3. That there is only one cherub?

As to the king of Tyrus, we know that the kings of earth have a king over them.

He is mentioned in Revelation 9:11 "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit,-----."

We know this king has possession of the kingdoms of this world, by Matthew 4:8-9 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; An saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

We know this king beholds all high things, and is a king over all the children of pride. (Job 41:34)

We have the physical king of Tyrus, and we have the spiritual king of Tyrus. The physical king was not in the garden of Eden, but the spiritual king was.

And like Job he was perfect and blameless until iniquity was found in him.

terrell

Hi Terrell,

I don't know what Lexicon you are using, because I don't find cherub(ims) referenced as angels, fallen or otherwise in the Lexicons, dictionaries, or encyclopaedia I researched.


Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results
Result of search for "cherub":
3742 kruwb ker-oob' of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure:--cherub, (plural) cherubims.
3743 Kruwb ker-oob' the same as 3742 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=3742); Kerub, a place in Bab.: -Cherub.



Easton's Bible Dictionary
Cherub:
plural cherubim, the name of certain symbolical figures frequently mentioned in Scripture. They are first mentioned in connection with the expulsion of our first parents from Eden (Gen 3:24 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&v=24 / 24)). There is no intimation given of their shape or form. They are next mentioned when Moses was commanded to provide furniture for the tabernacle (Exd 25:17-20 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Exd&c=25&v=17 / 17); 26:1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Exd&c=26&v=1 / 1),31 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Exd&c=26&v=31 / 31)). God promised to commune with Moses "from between the cherubim" (25:22). This expression was afterwards used to denote the Divine abode and presence (Num 7:89 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Num&c=7&v=89 / 89); 1Sa 4:4 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=4&v=4 / 4); Isa 37:16 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Isa&c=37&v=16 / 16); Psa 80:1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=80&v=1 / 1); 99:1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=99&v=1 / 1)). In Ezekiel's vision (Eze 10:1-20 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=10&v=1 / 1)) they appear as living creatures supporting the throne of God. From Ezekiel's description of them (Eze 1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=1&v= /); 10 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=10&v= /); 41:18 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=41&v=18 / 18),19 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=41&v=19 / 19)), they appear to have been compound figures, unlike any real object in nature; artificial images possessing the features and properties of several animals. Two cherubim were placed on the mercy-seat of the ark; two of colossal size overshadowed it in Solomon's temple. Ezekiel (Eze 1:4-14 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=1&v=4 / 4)) speaks of four; and this number of "living creatures" is mentioned in Rev 4:6 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=4&v=6 / 6). Those on the ark are called the "cherubim of glory" (Hbr 9:5 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=9&v=5 / 5)), i.e., of the Shechinah, or cloud of glory, for on them the visible glory of God rested. They were placed one at each end of the mercy-seat, with wings stretched upward, and their faces "toward each other and toward the mercy-seat." They were anointed with holy oil, like the ark itself and the other sacred furniture.

The cherubim were symbolical. They were intended to represent spiritual existences in immediate contact with Jehovah. Some have regarded them as symbolical of the chief ruling power by which God carries on his operations in providence (Psa 18:10 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=18&v=10 / 10)). Others interpret them as having reference to the redemption of men, and as symbolizing the great rulers or ministers of the church. Many other opinions have been held regarding them which need not be referred to here. On the whole, it seems to be most satisfactory to regard the interpretation of the symbol to be variable, as is the symbol itself.

Their office was, (1) on the expulsion of our first parents from Eden, to prevent all access to the tree of life; and (2) to form the throne and chariot of Jehovah in his manifestation of himself on earth. He dwelleth between and sitteth on the cherubim (1Sa 4:4 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=4&v=4 / 4); Psa 80:1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=80&v=1 / 1); Eze 1:26 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=1&v=26 / 26),28 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=1&v=28 / 28)).

International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia
Cherub:
ke’-rub (kerubh, Cheroub, Charoub): A place in Babylonia from which people whose genealogies had fallen into confusion went up at the return from exile (Ezr 2:59 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Ezr&c=2&v=59 / 59); Ne 7:61 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Neh&c=7&v=61 / 61)); unidentified. In 1 Esdras 5:36 we read "Charaathalan leading them, and Allar," a phrase that seems to have arisen through confusion of the names in the passages cited above.

Adam representing all of humanity was perfect and blameless until iniquity was found in him. The anointed cherub symbolizes fallen man.

Blessings,
RW

tgallison
Feb 20th 2008, 03:32 AM
Hi Terrell,

I don't know what Lexicon you are using, because I don't find cherub(ims) referenced as angels, fallen or otherwise in the Lexicons, dictionaries, or encyclopaedia I researched.


Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results
Result of search for "cherub":
3742 kruwb ker-oob' of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure:--cherub, (plural) cherubims.
3743 Kruwb ker-oob' the same as 3742 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=3742); Kerub, a place in Bab.: -Cherub.



Easton's Bible Dictionary
Cherub:
plural cherubim, the name of certain symbolical figures frequently mentioned in Scripture. They are first mentioned in connection with the expulsion of our first parents from Eden (Gen 3:24 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&v=24%20/%2024)). There is no intimation given of their shape or form. They are next mentioned when Moses was commanded to provide furniture for the tabernacle (Exd 25:17-20 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Exd&c=25&v=17%20/%2017); 26:1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Exd&c=26&v=1%20/%201),31 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Exd&c=26&v=31%20/%2031)). God promised to commune with Moses "from between the cherubim" (25:22). This expression was afterwards used to denote the Divine abode and presence (Num 7:89 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Num&c=7&v=89%20/%2089); 1Sa 4:4 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=4&v=4%20/%204); Isa 37:16 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Isa&c=37&v=16%20/%2016); Psa 80:1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=80&v=1%20/%201); 99:1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=99&v=1%20/%201)). In Ezekiel's vision (Eze 10:1-20 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=10&v=1%20/%201)) they appear as living creatures supporting the throne of God. From Ezekiel's description of them (Eze 1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=1&v=%20/); 10 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=10&v=%20/); 41:18 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=41&v=18%20/%2018),19 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=41&v=19%20/%2019)), they appear to have been compound figures, unlike any real object in nature; artificial images possessing the features and properties of several animals. Two cherubim were placed on the mercy-seat of the ark; two of colossal size overshadowed it in Solomon's temple. Ezekiel (Eze 1:4-14 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=1&v=4%20/%204)) speaks of four; and this number of "living creatures" is mentioned in Rev 4:6 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=4&v=6%20/%206). Those on the ark are called the "cherubim of glory" (Hbr 9:5 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=9&v=5%20/%205)), i.e., of the Shechinah, or cloud of glory, for on them the visible glory of God rested. They were placed one at each end of the mercy-seat, with wings stretched upward, and their faces "toward each other and toward the mercy-seat." They were anointed with holy oil, like the ark itself and the other sacred furniture.

The cherubim were symbolical. They were intended to represent spiritual existences in immediate contact with Jehovah. Some have regarded them as symbolical of the chief ruling power by which God carries on his operations in providence (Psa 18:10 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=18&v=10%20/%2010)). Others interpret them as having reference to the redemption of men, and as symbolizing the great rulers or ministers of the church. Many other opinions have been held regarding them which need not be referred to here. On the whole, it seems to be most satisfactory to regard the interpretation of the symbol to be variable, as is the symbol itself.

Their office was, (1) on the expulsion of our first parents from Eden, to prevent all access to the tree of life; and (2) to form the throne and chariot of Jehovah in his manifestation of himself on earth. He dwelleth between and sitteth on the cherubim (1Sa 4:4 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=4&v=4%20/%204); Psa 80:1 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=80&v=1%20/%201); Eze 1:26 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=1&v=26%20/%2026),28 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=1&v=28%20/%2028)).

International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia
Cherub:
ke’-rub (kerubh, Cheroub, Charoub): A place in Babylonia from which people whose genealogies had fallen into confusion went up at the return from exile (Ezr 2:59 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Ezr&c=2&v=59%20/%2059); Ne 7:61 (http://www.bibleforums.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Neh&c=7&v=61%20/%2061)); unidentified. In 1 Esdras 5:36 we read "Charaathalan leading them, and Allar," a phrase that seems to have arisen through confusion of the names in the passages cited above.

Adam representing all of humanity was perfect and blameless until iniquity was found in him. The anointed cherub symbolizes fallen man.

Blessings,
RW

Roger hi

Lexicon Results for kĕruwb (Strong's H3742)
Hebrew for H3742
כרוב Transliteration

kĕruwb

Pronunciation

ker·üb' (Key) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03742&t=KJV#)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)


of uncertain derivation

TWOT Reference


1036 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03742&t=KJV#)


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) cherub, cherubim (pl)
a) an angelic being
1) as guardians of Eden
2) as flanking God's throne
3) as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant
4) as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)

Satan is a fallen angelic being, IMO, and not imaginary. He was in the garden of God. When he fell he lost his wings, and changed his diet.

And he like Job was perfect and upright, until iniquity was found in them.

terrell

RogerW
Feb 20th 2008, 04:06 AM
Roger hi

Lexicon Results for kĕruwb (Strong's H3742)
Hebrew for H3742
כרוב Transliteration

kĕruwb

Pronunciation

ker·üb' (Key) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03742&t=KJV#)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)



of uncertain derivation


TWOT Reference



1036 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03742&t=KJV#)



Outline of Biblical Usage
1) cherub, cherubim (pl)
a) an angelic being
1) as guardians of Eden
2) as flanking God's throne
3) as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant
4) as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)

Satan is a fallen angelic being, IMO, and not imaginary. He was in the garden of God. When he fell he lost his wings, and changed his diet.

And he like Job was perfect and upright, until iniquity was found in them.

terrell

Hi Terrell,

Can you please give me the Bible usage of cherub as an angelic being? Satan may be a fallen angelic being in your opinion, but this cannot be biblically proven. He lost his wings, and changed his diet...another opinion, but cannot be biblically proven. Neither cherubims nor seraphims are angels.

Blessings,
RW

tgallison
Feb 20th 2008, 11:14 AM
Hi Terrell,

Can you please give me the Bible usage of cherub as an angelic being? Satan may be a fallen angelic being in your opinion, but this cannot be biblically proven. He lost his wings, and changed his diet...another opinion, but cannot be biblically proven. Neither cherubims nor seraphims are angels.

Blessings,
RW

Roger greetings

Next you will be asking me to prove that God exists.

Here is a portion of your post.

(The cherubim were symbolical. They were intended to represent spiritual existences in immediate contact with Jehovah. Some have regarded them as symbolical of the chief ruling power by which God carries on his operations in providence)

Whether we call him Satan, or the king of Tyrus, he was in the garden of God, he was perfect until iniquity was found in him, he was in the mountain of God, he walked up and down in the stones of fire, and God called him a covering cherub.

His heart was lifted up, like Job's, and he was cast down to the ground like Job.

Ezekiel 28:18 "---, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Job 2:8 "And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes."

It is ironic that Satan, or the king of tyrus, did to Job, what God is going to do to him.

The difference being----

Job found redemption, there was a ransom for his life, his life was kept back from the pit.

Job 33:24 "Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 20th 2008, 02:22 PM
ImmenseDisciple

We must have two different Books.

Job 34:9 "For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God."

Job is clearly spiritually depressed - but in a sense this is true and a DAMNING indictment on the prosperity gospel! If a man delights himself in God, God is NOT His debtor in the sense that He owes the man a wealthy lifestyle - this was of course what Satan wanted Job to think - but Job does NOT go so far as to curse God - he just realises that "profitting" materially may not happen at all if one delights in God.


Job 34:17 "Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?"

I'm sure those believers that suffered enormously under Hitler, Stalin or Saddam Hussein may well have cried out in the same way to God - it is a legitimate question and not sinful. God commands us to pour out our hearts to Him, for He is our refuge.


Israel condemned God when they crucified him.

Er, what exactly is that a reference to?!?! :confused


terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 20th 2008, 02:29 PM
Looks like THIS thread may be derailed too! :lol:

Roger, let's assume for a minute that terrell is correct and that Satan is referred to figuratively in Ezek 18 and 31 (and Is 14) - my big issue here is to what extent (if any) Job "fell" and did indeed curse God to his face, as terrell is maintaining.

Others - please chip in as well!

RogerW
Feb 20th 2008, 05:34 PM
Looks like THIS thread may be derailed too! :lol:

Roger, let's assume for a minute that terrell is correct and that Satan is referred to figuratively in Ezek 18 and 31 (and Is 14) - my big issue here is to what extent (if any) Job "fell" and did indeed curse God to his face, as terrell is maintaining.

Others - please chip in as well!

Hi Nigel,

I don't agree with what terrell is maintaining...Job did not curse God to His face. It is true that Job's heart was lifted up in pride and that made him utter things without knowledge, but for this pride Job repented. And in the end God showed His great love for Job by restoring all Job had lost during this stuggle against flesh and spirit.

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

Satan is given many names in Scripture, but Satan is NEVER likened unto a cherub. A cherub is always some manifestation of the attributes of the Lord, and always shows forth the glory of God. It was not Satan who walked pure and blameless in the garden of God, it was Adam, as he was before the fall. Calling Adam the anointed cherub is showing us that God created mankind to bring forth His crowning glory, Christ, Who would be the One to deliver His people from their sins.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Many Blessings,
RW

tgallison
Feb 21st 2008, 01:03 AM
Looks like THIS thread may be derailed too! :lol:

Roger, let's assume for a minute that terrell is correct and that Satan is referred to figuratively in Ezek 18 and 31 (and Is 14) - my big issue here is to what extent (if any) Job "fell" and did indeed curse God to his face, as terrell is maintaining.

Others - please chip in as well!

Nigel Hi

Of course Job fell flat on his face, there is far too much scripture that proclaims his iniquity, to deny it.

Here you have Satan who was perfect just like Job. God says Satan was perfect until iniquity was found in him.

Satan tells God; Job will fail, he is no better than me.

So Satan takes everything from Job, except his nagging wife.

Job passes this test with a 4.0, unbelievable.

But Satan doesn't give up easy. He says touch his flesh and he will curse you to his face.

So if you want to see if Job passed this test, you can only use scripture from Job 2:8 and on.

So from Job 2:8 to Job 41:34 how can you declare Job passed the test?

In Job chapter 42, Job repents, therefore it wouldn't be fair to try and use that.

terrell

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 03:14 AM
Roger, let's assume for a minute that terrell is correct and that Satan is referred to figuratively in Ezek 18 and 31 (and Is 14) - my big issue here is to what extent (if any) Job "fell" and did indeed curse God to his face, as terrell is maintaining.

Job cursed God a lot and for a long time in the book of Job. Some seem not to be able to believe it but can't really argue when the actual scriptures of Job doing it is presented. I don't know if extent matters, he did it. He later is chastised by God and Job realizes his sin and repents of it.

Mograce2U
Feb 21st 2008, 04:20 AM
Nigel Hi

Of course Job fell flat on his face, there is far too much scripture that proclaims his iniquity, to deny it.

Here you have Satan who was perfect just like Job. God says Satan was perfect until iniquity was found in him.

Satan tells God; Job will fail, he is no better than me.

So Satan takes everything from Job, except his nagging wife.

Job passes this test with a 4.0, unbelievable.

But Satan doesn't give up easy. He says touch his flesh and he will curse you to his face.

So if you want to see if Job passed this test, you can only use scripture from Job 2:8 and on.

So from Job 2:8 to Job 41:34 how can you declare Job passed the test?

In Job chapter 42, Job repents, therefore it wouldn't be fair to try and use that.

terrellYet Satan had no one to blame for his fall - who was there that had caused him any grief?

tgallison
Feb 21st 2008, 02:19 PM
Hi Nigel,

I don't agree with what terrell is maintaining...Job did not curse God to His face. It is true that Job's heart was lifted up in pride and that made him utter things without knowledge, but for this pride Job repented. And in the end God showed His great love for Job by restoring all Job had lost during this stuggle against flesh and spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger Hi

We agree then, that Job's downfall, like Satan's was because his heart was lifted up in pride.

Your disagreement is in whether Job cursed God or not.

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 02:35 PM
Roger Hi

We agree then, that Job's downfall, like Satan's was because his heart was lifted up in pride.

Your disagreement is in whether Job cursed God or not.

terrell

Does one have to curse God if one is deluded about obedience obligating God to be merciful? Job was in error and possibly proud - but MUST that equate with cursing God to His face?

tgallison
Feb 21st 2008, 02:46 PM
Yet Satan had no one to blame for his fall - who was there that had caused him any grief?

If you were to write an essay on the social life of Satan, what would you put in it?

As Roger says, it was pride that caused Job's downfall, just like Satan's.

We live in a world of no-fault. It always has to be somebody else's fault.

Compare Stephen's response to grief, that was through no fault of his own.

Acts 7:60 "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

Job's response. Job 3:1 "After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day."

And the spirit's response. Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 02:59 PM
If you were to write an essay on the social life of Satan, what would you put in it?

As Roger says, it was pride that caused Job's downfall, just like Satan's.

We live in a world of no-fault. It always has to be somebody else's fault.

Compare Stephen's response to grief, that was through no fault of his own.

Acts 7:60 "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

Job's response. Job 3:1 "After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day."

And the spirit's response. Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"

terrell

But that's just it - Job cursed his DAY - you have repeatedly said that Job cursed God to His face, as Satan predicted he would do. What I and others are saying here is that he did NOT - and you have yet to show us a concrete example of him doing this!

tgallison
Feb 21st 2008, 03:05 PM
Does one have to curse God if one is deluded about obedience obligating God to be merciful? Job was in error and possibly proud - but MUST that equate with cursing God to His face?

Nigel Greetings

You have one thing on your side as far as Job cursing God to his face. It was impossible for Job to do this. He didn't know where to find God's face.

Job 23:3 "Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!"

Does condemning God equate to cursing God? I think so.

Job 34:17 "Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?"

Job 34:37 "For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God."

Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also diannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 03:18 PM
Nigel Greetings

You have one thing on your side as far as Job cursing God to his face. It was impossible for Job to do this. He didn't know where to find God's face.

Job 23:3 "Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!"

But look at the whole chapter - if he did find him, he wasn't planning to curse him!

Job 23
Job Proclaims God’s Righteous Judgments

1 Then Job answered and said:

2 “Even today my complaint is bitter;
My hand is listless because of my groaning.
3 Oh, that I knew where I might find Him,
That I might come to His seat!
4 I would present my case before Him,
And fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would know the words which He would answer me,
And understand what He would say to me.
6 Would He contend with me in His great power?
No! But He would take note of me.
7 There the upright could reason with Him,
And I would be delivered forever from my Judge.
8 “Look, I go forward, but He is not there,
And backward, but I cannot perceive Him;
9 When He works on the left hand, I cannot behold Him;
When He turns to the right hand, I cannot see Him.
10 But He knows the way that I take;
When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.
11 My foot has held fast to His steps;
I have kept His way and not turned aside.
12 I have not departed from the commandment of His lips;
I have treasured the words of His mouth
More than my necessary food.
13 “But He is unique, and who can make Him change?
And whatever His soul desires, that He does.
14 For He performs what is appointed for me,
And many such things are with Him.
15 Therefore I am terrified at His presence;
When I consider this, I am afraid of Him.
16 For God made my heart weak,
And the Almighty terrifies me; 17 Because I was not cut off from the presence of darkness,
And He did not hide deep darkness from my face

So here we have Job fearing yet trusting God - not something you would find Satan doing!


Does condemning God equate to cursing God? I think so.

Only because it fits your argument.


Job 34:17 "Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?"

If Job had cursed God to His face (as I believe Satan did himself), God would not have shown him mercy - it's like the OT equivalent of no one cursing Jesus by the Spirit of God.


Job 34:37 "For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God."

Nope - still can't see it!


Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also diannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"

Job has been foolish - but he didn't curse God to His face! Indeed, when his eyes saw Him, he abhorred himself and repented.


terrell

RogerW
Feb 21st 2008, 05:28 PM
Roger Hi

We agree then, that Job's downfall, like Satan's was because his heart was lifted up in pride.

Your disagreement is in whether Job cursed God or not.

terrell

Terrell,

I will agree that Job's heart was lifted in pride, and that Job repented and was forgiven for this pride. Job was NOT like Satan. Satan is the arch enemy of good, and the adversary of the Lord. Job was not! Why do you say the downfall of Satan is pride? Since you began the thread, I suppose if you want it to go off topic in this manner so be it.

Blessings,
RW

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 11:32 PM
Nigel Greetings

You have one thing on your side as far as Job cursing God to his face. It was impossible for Job to do this. He didn't know where to find God's face.

It's a figure of speech. It doesn't need to be literally face to face but anything said to God or even about God would qualify.

As for what the Hebrew means to curse someone:

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.


What does it mean to curse someone in the OT hebrew?


1288

01288 barak {baw-rak'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 285; v

AV - bless 302, salute 5, curse 4, blaspheme 2, blessing 2, praised 2,
kneel down 2, congratulate 1, kneel 1, make to kneel 1, misc 8; 330

1) to bless, kneel
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to kneel
1a2) to bless
1b) (Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
1c) (Piel) to bless
1d) (Pual) to be blessed, be adored
1e) (Hiphil) to cause to kneel
1f) (Hithpael) to bless oneself
2) (TWOT) to praise, salute, curse



Now, the tense of the verb "curse" in this verse is Piel:

1c) (Piel) to bless

And thus the meaning of the verb is to "bless".

Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action as well as it also implies a repeated action meaning it is usually done more than once. In this case someone will curse God more than once.


OT:1288
barak (baw-rak'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):




A lexicon is an advanced study tool that informs the reader what a specific word means and its location in scripture. A dictionary will only give all possible meanings of a given word but won't tell you which one applies in each of its appearances. A lexicon will tell you which one of a word’s definitions applies in each case of its appearance. And so:

"It is properly used of persons, and is transferred to curses and impious words against God." This specific definition for the word in question is found in Job 1:5, 1:11 and Job 2:5.



Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

So what Satan literally said was:

"he will speak impious words against you"

tgallison
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:39 AM
But look at the whole chapter - if he did find him, he wasn't planning to curse him!

Job 23
Job Proclaims God’s Righteous Judgments

1 Then Job answered and said:

2 “Even today my complaint is bitter;
My hand is listless because of my groaning.
3 Oh, that I knew where I might find Him,
That I might come to His seat!
4 I would present my case before Him,
And fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would know the words which He would answer me,
And understand what He would say to me.
6 Would He contend with me in His great power?
No! But He would take note of me.
7 There the upright could reason with Him,
And I would be delivered forever from my Judge.
8 “Look, I go forward, but He is not there,
And backward, but I cannot perceive Him;
9 When He works on the left hand, I cannot behold Him;
When He turns to the right hand, I cannot see Him.
10 But He knows the way that I take;
When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.
11 My foot has held fast to His steps;
I have kept His way and not turned aside.
12 I have not departed from the commandment of His lips;
I have treasured the words of His mouth
More than my necessary food.
13 “But He is unique, and who can make Him change?
And whatever His soul desires, that He does.
14 For He performs what is appointed for me,
And many such things are with Him.
15 Therefore I am terrified at His presence;
When I consider this, I am afraid of Him.
16 For God made my heart weak,
And the Almighty terrifies me; 17 Because I was not cut off from the presence of darkness,
And He did not hide deep darkness from my face

Nigel

Look more carefully at this chapter

JOB CHAPTER 23

Verse 4—“I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments.”

Some of Job’s arguments, before he got to face his judge.


1. Job 9:22 “This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.”

2. Job 9:23 “If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.”

3. Job 9:24 “The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

4. Job 10:3 “Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

5. Job 16:11 “God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked.”

6. Job 16:17 “Not for any injustice in my hands: also my prayer us pure.”

7. Job 19:6 “know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.

8. Job 19:7 “Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.”

9. Job 19:8 “He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.”

10. Job 19:9 “He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.”

I guess you could say, God stripped Job of his pride.

Proverbs 30:21-22 “For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat:”

Verse 6—“Will he plead against me with his great power? NO: but he would put strength in me.

When Job said, God would not plead against him, Job was 100% wrong.

First we have Elihu speaking in the place of God. Job had made this request for one such as Elihu a number of times.

Job 9:15 “Whom though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.”

Job 9:32 “For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in Judgment.

Job 9:33 “Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.”

Job 9:34 “Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me.”

Elihu’s reply—Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.”

Job 33:8-9 “Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying, I am clean without transgression, I am innocent: neither is there iniquity in me.

Job 33:10-11 “Behold, he findeth occasion against me, he counteth me for his enemy. He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.”

Job 33:12 “Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.”

Job 33:32 “If thou hast any thing to say answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee,”
(Job said I will fill my mouth with arguments, yet we hear not one word from his mouth.)

GOD SAID

1. That Job contended with him.

2. That Job instructed him.

3. That Job reproved him.
(Job 40:2)

4. Disannuled his judgment.

5. Condemned God, that Job might be righteous.
(Job 40:8)

Some of the verses are color coded for comparison.


In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:38 AM
It's a figure of speech. It doesn't need to be literally face to face but anything said to God or even about God would qualify.

As for what the Hebrew means to curse someone:

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.


What does it mean to curse someone in the OT hebrew?


1288

01288 barak {baw-rak'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 285; v

AV - bless 302, salute 5, curse 4, blaspheme 2, blessing 2, praised 2,
kneel down 2, congratulate 1, kneel 1, make to kneel 1, misc 8; 330

1) to bless, kneel
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to kneel
1a2) to bless
1b) (Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
1c) (Piel) to bless
1d) (Pual) to be blessed, be adored
1e) (Hiphil) to cause to kneel
1f) (Hithpael) to bless oneself
2) (TWOT) to praise, salute, curse



Now, the tense of the verb "curse" in this verse is Piel:

1c) (Piel) to bless

And thus the meaning of the verb is to "bless".

Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action as well as it also implies a repeated action meaning it is usually done more than once. In this case someone will curse God more than once.


OT:1288
barak (baw-rak'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):




A lexicon is an advanced study tool that informs the reader what a specific word means and its location in scripture. A dictionary will only give all possible meanings of a given word but won't tell you which one applies in each of its appearances. A lexicon will tell you which one of a word’s definitions applies in each case of its appearance. And so:

"It is properly used of persons, and is transferred to curses and impious words against God." This specific definition for the word in question is found in Job 1:5, 1:11 and Job 2:5.



Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

So what Satan literally said was:

"he will speak impious words against you"

Naphal Hi

Was being facetious when I said, Job couldn't find his face. No one can hide from the face of God, He is omnipresent. There isn't anything we think or do that can be hidden from God.

Thank you for your post. There are many who think I have something against Job.

How could I have anything against Job, when he is God's chosen.

terrell

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:41 AM
Naphal Hi

Was being facetious when I said, Job couldn't find his face.

No, I just wanted to explain that the phrase isn't literal as if a man can approach God literally face to face (and survive) and curse him. All we have to do is is say negative thing to or about God and that's cursing his face.

9Marksfan
Feb 22nd 2008, 11:26 AM
Nigel

Look more carefully at this chapter

JOB CHAPTER 23

Verse 4—“I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments.”

Some of Job’s arguments, before he got to face his judge.


1. Job 9:22 “This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.”

That's true - no curse or impious words there.


2. Job 9:23 “If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.”

Job misunderstands God's ways - but this is not cursing or impiety!


3. Job 9:24 “The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job is vigorously struggling with his understanding of God's ways - Jacob struggled with the angel of the Lord (many believe it was a pre-incarnate Christ) and God still blessed him! It's not wrong to struggle vigorously in this way with God! Our faith will never grow unless we cry "Why?" "How long?" etc


4. Job 10:3 “Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

Job is questioning God - not cursing Him - he wants to know God's ways better, as he cannot understand why things happen the way they do - that is FAITH!


5. Job 16:11 “God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked.”

True!


6. Job 16:17 “Not for any injustice in my hands: also my prayer us pure.”

It may well have been! But if it wasn't, then that's the pride we've all accepted was his problem - but this ISN'T cursing or impious words!


7. Job 19:6 “know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.

True.


8. Job 19:7 “Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.”

True - God was silent at that stage to test Job.


9. Job 19:8 “He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.”

True again.


10. Job 19:9 “He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.”

I guess you could say, God stripped Job of his pride.

Amen to that!


Proverbs 30:21-22 “For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat:”

But Job wasn't reigning here!


Verse 6—“Will he plead against me with his great power? NO: but he would put strength in me.

When Job said, God would not plead against him, Job was 100% wrong.

I wouldn't say 100% wrong - but he was certainly wrong to some extent! If God were against him, he would have condemned him - instead, He restored him.


First we have Elihu speaking in the place of God Job 33:12 “Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.”

I'm not saying Job was perfect - but he did NOT curse God or speak impious words against Him! His faith was challenged, his understanding of both himself and God was flawed - but it's clear that his faith in God is never denied - that is the definition of impiety - a denial of faith - unbelief!


Job 33:32 “If thou hast any thing to say answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee,”
(Job said I will fill my mouth with arguments, yet we hear not one word from his mouth.)

Fair comment.


GOD SAID

1. That Job contended with him.

2. That Job instructed him.

3. That Job reproved him.
(Job 40:2)

4. Disannuled his judgment.

5. Condemned God, that Job might be righteous.
(Job 40:8)

Some of the verses are color coded for comparison.


In Jesus Christ, terrell

I still maintain that Job did not curse God or use words that reflected apostasy, unbelief or a denial of his faith in God. Misunderstanding, confusion, pride, ignorance of the truth about God (but was it wilful?) for sure - but NOT cursing or impiety!

tgallison
Feb 22nd 2008, 08:13 PM
Job misunderstands God's ways - but this is not cursing or impiety!

Job is vigorously struggling with his understanding of God's ways - Jacob struggled with the angel of the Lord (many believe it was a pre-incarnate Christ) and God still blessed him! It's not wrong to struggle vigorously in this way with God! Our faith will never grow unless we cry "Why?" "How long?" etc

Job is questioning God - not cursing Him - he wants to know God's ways better, as he cannot understand why things happen the way they do - that is FAITH

It may well have been! But if it wasn't, then that's the pride we've all accepted was his problem - but this ISN'T cursing or impious words!


I'm not saying Job was perfect - but he did NOT curse God or speak impious words against Him! His faith was challenged, his understanding of both himself and God was flawed - but it's clear that his faith in God is never denied - that is the definition of impiety - a denial of faith - unbelief!

I still maintain that Job did not curse God or use words that reflected apostasy, unbelief or a denial of his faith in God. Misunderstanding, confusion, pride, ignorance of the truth about God (but was it wilful?) for sure - but NOT cursing or impiety!

Nigel Hi

You say Job had faith, and we are talking about the time before Job repented.

Job called God belial, he called God wicked, he called God ungodly, he called God unjust, he condemned God, and Job declared his righteousness greater than God's.

Just what did Job have faith in, besides himself?

Job asked for a mediator, a judge who was made out of clay that would stand in the place of God.

Job 9:32-35 "For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job 33:6-7 "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee."

As you observe the color coded scripture, you will see that God gave Job his wish for a daysman, and his name is Elihu.(God with us.)

Elihu, who was speaking for God, said this to Job.

Job 34:17 "Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?

Job 34:18 "Is it fit to say to a king, Thou are wicked? and to princes, ye are ungodly?
The Hebrew word for wicked (beliya'al)

Lexicon Results for bĕliya`al (Strong's H1100)
Hebrew for H1100
בליעל Transliteration

bĕliya`al

Pronunciation

bel·e·yah'·al (Key) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=01100&t=KJV#)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)


from H1097 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1097&t=KJV) and H3276 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3276&t=KJV)

TWOT Reference


246g (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=01100&t=KJV#)


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) worthlessness
a) worthless, good for nothing, unprofitable, base fellow
b) wicked
c) ruin, destruction (construct)



Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 27
AV (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=01100&t=KJV#) — Belial (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Belial*+H1100) 16, wicked (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20wicked*+H1100) 5, ungodly (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20ungodly*+H1100) 3, evil (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20evil*+H1100) 1, naughty (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20naughty*+H1100) 1 ungodly men (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20ungodly%20men*+H1100) 1


Look at what happened to three men, who merely refused to bow down before a king.

Daniel 3:19 "The was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more that it was wont to be heated."

And how about Queen Esther who could not come before the king without being summoned, at risk of punishment of her life.

So we have God, who is so much higher that any earthly king, being called wicked by Job.

And you say Job was not impious.

terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:02 AM
Terrell,
Elihu is cluing Job in to what he had done - Job had not yet realized it until this light was shed. When he asked for a mediator he was ultimately asking for Christ to come which was his hope. There is more to this than meets the eye. His sin was being revealed but so was his hope in God. What he had trusted God for previously was only blessing in this life. He received far more in the end.

Naphal
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:51 AM
That's true - no curse or impious words there.


Quote:
2. Job 9:23 “If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.”

Job misunderstands God's ways - but this is not cursing or impiety!

I think we need to see the definition of impiety if you think that isn't impious:

American Heritage Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=impious&ia=ahd4) - Share This (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impious#sharethis) im·pi·ous http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fimpious) (ĭm'pē-əs, ĭm-pī'-) Pronunciation Key (http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
adj.

Lacking reverence; not pious.
Lacking due respect or dutifulness: impious toward one's parents.

Job said a lot of things that lacked reverence for God. In today's terms it would mean Job spoke in disrespect to and about God.

tgallison
Feb 23rd 2008, 02:18 PM
Terrell,
Elihu is cluing Job in to what he had done - Job had not yet realized it until this light was shed. When he asked for a mediator he was ultimately asking for Christ to come which was his hope. There is more to this than meets the eye. His sin was being revealed but so was his hope in God. What he had trusted God for previously was only blessing in this life. He received far more in the end.

Robin greetings

When Job asked for a mediator it was to vindicate himself. He maintained that God was unfair, and if he could only have an impartial judge, he would be able to argue his case and win. Job did not need a ransom, he was pure in himself. It was all about pride.

Job 13:15 "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him."

Job trusted that God was gone to save him, because Job deserved it.

Job 16:17 "Not for any injustice in mine hands: also my prayer is pure."

Job is saying both physically and spiritually he is righteous. He doesn't need a saviour, a ransom, he is pure. He says he knows he is going to be redeemed by God, and that is his faith. He is going to be redeemed because he is good, and that is why he wants a mediator.

Job 19:7 "Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment."

Job 19:9 "He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head."

Job 10:3 "Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?"

This is why Job wants a mediator, a judge to go between him and God, because God is not giving him a fair shake.

Job 23:4 "I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments."

Job 27:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."

The first chapter where Job's mediator---judge comes on the scene, the problem is outlined.

Job 32:1 "So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes."

Job 32:2 "Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God."

The spirit said in---

Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Elihu, Job's mediator and judge, said---

Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?"

God, the one that Job condemned, said,---

Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

JOB DID NOT NEED CHRIST

terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 23rd 2008, 04:18 PM
Terrell,
I don't see that Job's response was any different than many Christians who when faced with chastening or affliction, blame God. I have heard it many times that God somehow owes them because they have been obedient to Him, therefore they do not deserve this trouble that has come their way. This is the mentality which is focused upon works and not true faith in God. It is their understanding of who God is that must move past this way of thinking which traps many.

God's revelation of Himself to Job is what brought him out of this way of thinking that God was only his taskmaster. His frustration in being under God's rule was that he could not change his own circumstance apart from God's willingness to change them for him. But that was where his hope lies - he knew it but didn't like it. Yet the same God that gives life is the God who brings death to bear upon every soul. Therefore our life is in His hands and it behooves us to realize we deserve nothing apart from the grace of God which bestows mercy upon us.

I see this discourse between Job and his friends and then with God as being how he was brought to true faith and loving dependency upon the Lover of his soul. He did get his day in court with his Judge and found redemption. Not because his defense was accepted, but because he accepted the sentence that was upon him as just and found the mercy of God as a result.

(Job 19:25-26 KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: {26} And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

How can you say that Job didn't have a hope in Christ? How to walk in that hope by faith was what he needed to find.

tgallison
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:01 PM
Terrell,
I don't see that Job's response was any different than many Christians who when faced with chastening or affliction, blame God. I have heard it many times that God somehow owes them because they have been obedient to Him, therefore they do not deserve this trouble that has come their way. This is the mentality which is focused upon works and not true faith in God. It is their understanding of who God is that must move past this way of thinking which traps many.

God's revelation of Himself to Job is what brought him out of this way of thinking that God was only his taskmaster. His frustration in being under God's rule was that he could not change his own circumstance apart from God's willingness to change them for him. But that was where his hope lies - he knew it but didn't like it. Yet the same God that gives life is the God who brings death to bear upon every soul. Therefore our life is in His hands and it behooves us to realize we deserve nothing apart from the grace of God which bestows mercy upon us.

I see this discourse between Job and his friends and then with God as being how he was brought to true faith and loving dependency upon the Lover of his soul. He did get his day in court with his Judge and found redemption. Not because his defense was accepted, but because he accepted the sentence that was upon him as just and found the mercy of God as a result.

(Job 19:25-26 KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: {26} And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

How can you say that Job didn't have a hope in Christ? How to walk in that hope by faith was what he needed to find.

Robin

What you are saying sounds very nice, but I find no merit in it in regards to the Book of Job.

Job was depending on his own righteousness to redeem himself. As so stated by the spirit, Elihu, and God. (Job 4:17)(Job 35:2)(Job 40:6,14)

Job was clothed by his own righteousness, when he needed to be clothed with God's. (Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.")

We receive God's righteous by receiving Jesus Christ, He is the righteous one. We put on Christ. (Romans 13:14)

Job was clothing himself with his own righteousness.

I see Job as a picture of Israel. ("I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels." Isaiah 61:10)

Here is Joshua the High Priest, representing Israel. It is a picture of Job.

"And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.(Do you remember God saying to Job, "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.") And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." (Zechariah 3:1-4)

This is a picture of Israel, clothed in the filthy garments of self righteousness. But they will one day be clothed in Christ.

Romans 10:1-4 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved;---."

Most of the long time poster's know Fenris. I will not say anything that will offend Fenris. What I will say, he would say himself. Lets compare him to Job.

Fenris says, he is not a Christian. He would agree with Job on Job 19:25-26. "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

Fenris believes this. He believes this because he is a righteous Jew. He has told me and he would tell you, that he is righteous because of his good works. Fenris has said, he would not want a free gift, he believes you have to earn your way to God. I say this with all due respect to Fenris. We need to pray for him. He would not like me saying that, but he ought to know we care for him.

This is how Job appears in scripture.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 24th 2008, 03:14 AM
Terrell,
The difference between Job and Fenris is that Job's Redeemer has already stood upon the earth to bring Israel her redemption. Job's hope was viable as he looked forward to Christ, I don't know what Fenris's hope might be seeing as how he rejects his redeemer.

So if Job does represent OT Israel, I can agree. But whether or not he represents modern day Israel, I cannot.

When I read Job I try to look at the whole story, and in it I find redemption is its message. Self-righteousness is not the end of the story for Job, nor is it for Israel or anyone else who is willing to go on to know the Lord. Self-righteousness does not concern just the religious (Job), but all sinners who must come to repentance and faith.

It is the story of one's man journey to know his God in the fullness in which God reveals Himself to man in the midst of the trials of life. We all travel his path sooner or later and so Job is the epitome of what we all must go thru as we struggle to know our Creator.

Job may not be a hero of the faith to you, but I find great comfort in his testimony.

9Marksfan
Feb 24th 2008, 04:13 PM
Terrell,
The difference between Job and Fenris is that Job's Redeemer has already stood upon the earth to bring Israel her redemption. Job's hope was viable as he looked forward to Christ, I don't know what Fenris's hope might be seeing as how he rejects his redeemer.

So if Job does represent OT Israel, I can agree. But whether or not he represents modern day Israel, I cannot.

When I read Job I try to look at the whole story, and in it I find redemption is its message. Self-righteousness is not the end of the story for Job, nor is it for Israel or anyone else who is willing to go on to know the Lord. Self-righteousness does not concern just the religious (Job), but all sinners who must come to repentance and faith.

It is the story of one's man journey to know his God in the fullness in which God reveals Himself to man in the midst of the trials of life. We all travel his path sooner or later and so Job is the epitome of what we all must go thru as we struggle to know our Creator.

Job may not be a hero of the faith to you, but I find great comfort in his testimony.

Great post, Mograce2U - I agree completely. It's interesting how when James refers to him and his time of testing, he doesn't say anything negative - but instead refers to his steadfastness or perseverance:-

"Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful". Jas 5:11 ESV

"Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord - that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful". Jas 5:11 NKJV

It seems from what Naphal and tgallison have been saying that Job wasn't right with God until he repented in ch42. But James would beg to differ. And he was guided by the Holy Spirit.

tgallison
Feb 24th 2008, 05:41 PM
Terrell,
The difference between Job and Fenris is that Job's Redeemer has already stood upon the earth to bring Israel her redemption. Job's hope was viable as he looked forward to Christ, I don't know what Fenris's hope might be seeing as how he rejects his redeemer.

So if Job does represent OT Israel, I can agree. But whether or not he represents modern day Israel, I cannot.

When I read Job I try to look at the whole story, and in it I find redemption is its message. Self-righteousness is not the end of the story for Job, nor is it for Israel or anyone else who is willing to go on to know the Lord. Self-righteousness does not concern just the religious (Job), but all sinners who must come to repentance and faith.

It is the story of one's man journey to know his God in the fullness in which God reveals Himself to man in the midst of the trials of life. We all travel his path sooner or later and so Job is the epitome of what we all must go thru as we struggle to know our Creator.

Job may not be a hero of the faith to you, but I find great comfort in his testimony.

Robin Hi

We agree that redemption is the message of the Book of Job. The whole Bible is about our redemption. There is no redemption without Christ. The Book of Job is about Jesus Christ. The Bible is about Jesus Christ, our redeemer.

I see faith as viable whether looking forward to the Cross, or back to the Cross.

Fenris's faith is in his righteousness. His faith is in God, that God will save him because of his good works. In other words, God will save Fenris because of Fenris's own righteousness.

The difference between Fenris and Job is, as far as I know, Fenris has not cursed God. note[referring to the time in the book of Job up until the 42 Chapter.]

Compare Abraham with Job

Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

Job 33:14-16 "For God speaketh once, yea twice,yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction."

Jesus Christ is the word of God, he is our shield that protects us from our sin. Jesus Christ is our exceeding great reward.

But Job perceived him not.

Job 7:14 "Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:

Jesus said to Abram, fear not, yet for some reason the word of God terrified Job.

LOOK AT SAMUEL

Samuel was laid down to sleep and Jesus called him. (1 Samuel 3:3-4)

When Samuel perceived that it was the Lord, he said, "Speak: for thy servant heareth." (1 Samuel 3:10)

Why did not Job say, speak for thy servant heareth? instead of being terrified.

How can Job be a hero of the faith to me, when his faith was that God would honor Job's own righteousness?

terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 24th 2008, 06:00 PM
How can Job be a hero of the faith to me, when his faith was that God would honor Job's own righteousness?
Because like Nigel pointed out, God did honor Job's perseverance in doing right. As He did Cornelius by sending Peter to him. Both of whom did not yet have saving faith, but did have their hope in God and in His promise to send Messiah.

The difference between Fenris and Job is that Fenris is not looking forward to the same thing Job was. Therefore they do not have the same hope in God. Fenris is therefore stuck with only his own self-righteousness because he does not believe God by faith. If he did he would trust in Christ, for that is the faith which pleases the Father. A hope based upon a denial that God has done what He said is not a true hope at all. That is why those who are unbelieving have no hope in the end, and their works will account for only fuel in the fire.

9Marksfan
Feb 24th 2008, 09:27 PM
Fenris's faith is in his righteousness. His faith is in God, that God will save him because of his good works. In other words, God will save Fenris because of Fenris's own righteousness.

The difference between Fenris and Job is, as far as I know, Fenris has not cursed God. note[referring to the time in the book of Job up until the 42 Chapter.]

By rejecting the gospel and holding on to his own righteousness, Fenris is committing the ultimate blasphemiy and cursing God and His Messiah in the most damnable way imaginable. He has come to the knowledge of the truth and keeps on sinning in spite of it:-

"For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the son of God underfoot.....and insulted the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:26-29 NKJV

That sounds to me like the ultimate cursing of God.

Not only did Job not curse God, he repented of his pride - THAT is the big difference between Job and Fenris - Fenris has yet to repent of his pride.

tgallison
Feb 24th 2008, 09:58 PM
Because like Nigel pointed out, God did honor Job's perseverance in doing right. As He did Cornelius by sending Peter to him. Both of whom did not yet have saving faith, but did have their hope in God and in His promise to send Messiah.

The difference between Fenris and Job is that Fenris is not looking forward to the same thing Job was. Therefore they do not have the same hope in God. Fenris is therefore stuck with only his own self-righteousness because he does not believe God by faith. If he did he would trust in Christ, for that is the faith which pleases the Father. A hope based upon a denial that God has done what He said is not a true hope at all. That is why those who are unbelieving have no hope in the end, and their works will account for only fuel in the fire.

Robin

WHERE WAS JOB'S HOPE?

Job 10:20-22 "Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death; a land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness."

Job 14:7,10 "For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?"

Job 6:9 "Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!"

WHERE WAS JOB'S FAITH?

Job 9:22-24 "This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked. If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent. The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?"

"WHO IS HE?" JOB SAID WHO IS GOD?

It was never recorded that Cornelius said anything like that.

terrell

tgallison
Feb 24th 2008, 10:09 PM
By rejecting the gospel and holding on to his own righteousness, Fenris is committing the ultimate blasphemiy and cursing God and His Messiah in the most damnable way imaginable. He has come to the knowledge of the truth and keeps on sinning in spite of it:-

"For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the son of God underfoot.....and insulted the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:26-29 NKJV

That sounds to me like the ultimate cursing of God.

Not only did Job not curse God, he repented of his pride - THAT is the big difference between Job and Fenris - Fenris has yet to repent of his pride.

Nigel

I used Fenris as an example of Job before he was saved. I would not condemn Fenris, it is not my place. That is between him and God. We need to show Fenris God's grace in ourselves. I apologize to Fenris and everyone for bringing him into this thread.

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 24th 2008, 10:27 PM
Nigel

I used Fenris as an example of Job before he was saved. I would not condemn Fenris, it is not my place. That is between him and God. We need to show Fenris God's grace in ourselves. I apologize to Fenris and everyone for bringing him into this thread.

terrell

I do not think there is the slightest similarity between Job and Fenris. As Christians, we are called to make right judgements about all things. Fenris has made his position 100% clear and by applying the Scriptures in a straightforweard way, it is clear not only that God's wrath remains upon him (Jn 3:36) but that the more he rejects the gospel and carries on with his self-righteous position, the more the verses in Heb 10 apply to him. I'm not saying that God can't or won't save him - I hope He will - but the Bible is 100% clear that that is the sobering reality of where Fenris and all like him are at here and now. To explain that away with "it's not my place to condemn" is missing the point - and is pastorally disastrous - we are to warn people to flee the wrath to come!!! People need to hear the TRUTH!!!!

tgallison
Feb 24th 2008, 11:12 PM
I do not think there is the slightest similarity between Job and Fenris. As Christians, we are called to make right judgements about all things. Fenris has made his position 100% clear and by applying the Scriptures in a straightforweard way, it is clear not only that God's wrath remains upon him (Jn 3:36) but that the more he rejects the gospel and carries on with his self-righteous position, the more the verses in Heb 10 apply to him. I'm not saying that God can't or won't save him - I hope He will - but the Bible is 100% clear that that is the sobering reality of where Fenris and all like him are at here and now. To explain that away with "it's not my place to condemn" is missing the point - and is pastorally disastrous - we are to warn people to flee the wrath to come!!! People need to hear the TRUTH!!!!

Nigel

Fenris has heard the truth. It was wrong of me to me bring him into a conversation he was not part of.

We are to be witnesses, and not judges. We can judge the actions of people, but not the people themselves.

I was using what Fenris said himself, to compare with what Job said.

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 24th 2008, 11:46 PM
Nigel

Fenris has heard the truth. It was wrong of me to me bring him into a conversation he was not part of.

We are to be witnesses, and not judges. We can judge the actions of people, but not the people themselves.

I was using what Fenris said himself, to compare with what Job said.

terrell

You're right, it was a bad move - but now that you've made it, what I said had to be said too. And if someone has clearly rejected Christ, then it is absolutely MANDATORY that we warn them in the clearest possible terms of the consequnces as set out in the Bible of what will happen to all who reject Christ. This is a vitally important part of being a witness to the truth in Christ!!!!!

tgallison
Feb 25th 2008, 01:49 AM
Great post, Mograce2U - I agree completely. It's interesting how when James refers to him and his time of testing, he doesn't say anything negative - but instead refers to his steadfastness or perseverance:-

"Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful". Jas 5:11 ESV

"Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord - that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful". Jas 5:11 NKJV

It seems from what Naphal and tgallison have been saying that Job wasn't right with God until he repented in ch42. But James would beg to differ. And he was guided by the Holy Spirit.

Nigel

James isn't begging to differ with me.

He said Job was blessed because he hung in there. His wife told him to curse God and die, and he refused to die.

terrell

Naphal
Feb 25th 2008, 03:58 AM
Nigel

James isn't begging to differ with me.

He said Job was blessed because he hung in there. His wife told him to curse God and die, and he refused to die.

terrell

If Job had been right all along there would have been no reason for God to berate him so long and so sternly. Job had done a lot wrong and that's why he needed to repent. James doesn't address his earlier problems but only his righteousness.

tgallison
Feb 25th 2008, 12:05 PM
If Job had been right all along there would have been no reason for God to berate him so long and so sternly. Job had done a lot wrong and that's why he needed to repent. James doesn't address his earlier problems but only his righteousness.

Greetings Naphal

I am not sure if you are talking about Job's righteousness that was his own, or the righteousness he received from God when he repented.

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 25th 2008, 12:15 PM
Nigel

James isn't begging to differ with me.

He said Job was blessed because he hung in there. His wife told him to curse God and die, and he refused to die.

terrell

He also refused to curse God - I am not painting Job as perfect in every way - he did sin, he was confused and in error about God at times and was no doubt profoundly depressed spiritually - but I contend that we MUST be led by the NT's assessment of him - and that is that he was steadfast/persevered - and that God was very compassionate and merciful towards him (which implies both that He understood and accepted Job's weakness through IMMENSE suffering and that He forgave him his sin). I just get the feeling that you and Naphal aren't being very compassionate and merciful towards Job here - would it not be better if you were?

9Marksfan
Feb 25th 2008, 12:24 PM
If Job had been right all along there would have been no reason for God to berate him so long and so sternly. Job had done a lot wrong and that's why he needed to repent. James doesn't address his earlier problems but only his righteousness.

Well, if James was led by the Spirit not to focus on these matters, shouldn't you take the same approach? And, like God, be very compassionate and merciful towards him, since he is a brother in the faith?

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." Eph 4:32 NKJV

"Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God." Rom 15:7 NIV

9Marksfan
Feb 25th 2008, 12:30 PM
Greetings Naphal

I am not sure if you are talking about Job's righteousness that was his own, or the righteousness he received from God when he repented.

terrell

If he only received God' righteousness after he repented in ch42, how can he be an unrighteous sinner in God's eyes, with all his righteousness as filthy rags in God's sight, if God could say this of him in ch 1:-

"The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." Job 1:8 NASB

God called him His servant. God's assessment of his character is true - he was the most holy man on the planet. This could only have happened if he had believed God and God had credited it to him for righteousness and he then grew in his walk with the LORD and these fruits followed.

tgallison
Feb 25th 2008, 01:02 PM
If he only received God' righteousness after he repented in ch42, how can he be an unrighteous sinner in God's eyes, with all his righteousness as filthy rags in God's sight, if God could say this of him in ch 1:-

"The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." Job 1:8 NASB

God called him His servant. God's assessment of his character is true - he was the most holy man on the planet. This could only have happened if he had believed God and God had credited it to him for righteousness and he then grew in his walk with the LORD and these fruits followed.

Nigel

You say Job grew in his walk with God. How then could Job say this?

Job 9:23-24 "If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent. The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where and who is he?"

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE ENOCH WHO WALKED WITH GOD AND WAS NOT?

9Marksfan
Feb 25th 2008, 01:21 PM
Nigel

You say Job grew in his walk with God. How then could Job say this?

Job 9:23-24 "If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent. The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where and who is he?"

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE ENOCH WHO WALKED WITH GOD AND WAS NOT?


Ever heard of the concept of two steps forward, one step back? Setbacks happen - those who persevere aren't immune to them. Job is saying that he just can't understand God's ways at time - are we any different, if we're honest? The problem is, few of us know a fraction of both Job's sufferings and his struggle to relate his understanding of a sovereign God with all that happened around him. Most of us just ditch the idea of a sovereign God at all (which is actually a pretty big cursing of God in itself!) and try and "get God off the hook" by treating Him as the deists do. But Job knew otherwise - and just struggled to find comfort and peace. To a very limited extent, I know some of what he went through - I just wish some of us would adopt the attitude of James rather than that of Bildad and co.

tgallison
Feb 25th 2008, 05:21 PM
Ever heard of the concept of two steps forward, one step back? Setbacks happen - those who persevere aren't immune to them. Job is saying that he just can't understand God's ways at time - are we any different, if we're honest? The problem is, few of us know a fraction of both Job's sufferings and his struggle to relate his understanding of a sovereign God with all that happened around him. Most of us just ditch the idea of a sovereign God at all (which is actually a pretty big cursing of God in itself!) and try and "get God off the hook" by treating Him as the deists do. But Job knew otherwise - and just struggled to find comfort and peace. To a very limited extent, I know some of what he went through - I just wish some of us would adopt the attitude of James rather than that of Bildad and co.

Nigel

Job is not merely saying he cannot understand God's ways, he is saying he does not know God. He doesn't know who God is, or where to find him. (Job 9:24)

But to Job's credit he was searching. He that seeks God out with a meek and contrite spirit will find him. Job was having a little bit of trouble with pride for a while.

Satan was perfect and blameless.

Saul was perfect and blameless.

Job was perfect and blameless.

Does perfect and blameless equal everlasting life? Or does redemption from our sins by Jesus Christ?

terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 25th 2008, 05:36 PM
And Peter denied the Lord 3 times yet Jesus prayed beforehand that his faith would not fail him and he was restored by Jesus to that place of faith. I see a parallel here for Job. Saul/Paul was perfect in keeping the law until the Lord showed him he was opposing the purpose of God at which point he repented and believed. Job was being used by God to teach Satan a lesson about faith. Of which Satan has none, but which Job did have. And it was a faith that God was bringing to perfection thru this trial.

9Marksfan
Feb 25th 2008, 06:45 PM
Satan was perfect and blameless.

Untrue.


Saul was perfect and blameless.

Also untrue.


Job was perfect and blameless.

Also untrue.


Does perfect and blameless equal everlasting life?

Of course not. But God does not pronounce people upright who are not.


Or does redemption from our sins by Jesus Christ?

Job knew he needed a Redeemer. Don't forget the amount of "light" OT saints had. We can't blame them for only having a candle when we live in the noonday sun.

Nigel

9Marksfan
Feb 25th 2008, 06:47 PM
And Peter denied the Lord 3 times yet Jesus prayed beforehand that his faith would not fail him and he was restored by Jesus to that place of faith. I see a parallel here for Job. Saul/Paul was perfect in keeping the law until the Lord showed him he was opposing the purpose of God at which point he repented and believed. Job was being used by God to teach Satan a lesson about faith. Of which Satan has none, but which Job did have. And it was a faith that God was bringing to perfection thru this trial.

Amen - great points! :)

Naphal
Feb 25th 2008, 09:39 PM
Greetings Naphal

I am not sure if you are talking about Job's righteousness that was his own, or the righteousness he received from God when he repented.

terrell

Talking about the reason why he is spoken of in positive regards in the NT. It is because he repented and being forgiven by God for being impious and rebellious. It isn't because the NT doesn't know of Jobs errors, but to sum up his ordeal is to result in a positive reflection.

Naphal
Feb 25th 2008, 09:40 PM
Nigel

You say Job grew in his walk with God. How then could Job say this?

Job 9:23-24 "If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent. The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where and who is he?"

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE ENOCH WHO WALKED WITH GOD AND WAS NOT?


Also Job 1:8 is BEFORE Job began sinning so badly against God.

tgallison
Feb 25th 2008, 10:28 PM
And Peter denied the Lord 3 times yet Jesus prayed beforehand that his faith would not fail him and he was restored by Jesus to that place of faith. I see a parallel here for Job. Saul/Paul was perfect in keeping the law until the Lord showed him he was opposing the purpose of God at which point he repented and believed. Job was being used by God to teach Satan a lesson about faith. Of which Satan has none, but which Job did have. And it was a faith that God was bringing to perfection thru this trial.

Robin

Was Peter saved, did he have salvation, at the time of his denial of Christ?

terrell

tgallison
Feb 25th 2008, 10:55 PM
Untrue.

Also untrue.

Also untrue.

Of course not. But God does not pronounce people upright who are not.

Job knew he needed a Redeemer. Don't forget the amount of "light" OT saints had. We can't blame them for only having a candle when we live in the noonday sun.

Nigel

Nigel

You have said Satan was not perfect and blameless. Why?

You have said Saul/Paul was not perfect and blameless. Why?

You have said Job was not perfect and blameless. Why?

I believe God revealed himself every bit as much to the Old Testament Saints and he does to us.

What did Abraham say to the rich man?

"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:25-31)

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 26th 2008, 10:32 AM
Nigel

You have said Satan was not perfect and blameless. Why?

Sin was found in his heart.


You have said Saul/Paul was not perfect and blameless. Why?

You won't find those precise words spoken of him in Phil 3 (actually at the time I typed it, I thought you meant King Saul - either way, my point is the same.


You have said Job was not perfect and blameless. Why?

Because he inherited Adam's sinful nature, as we all do.


I believe God revealed himself every bit as much to the Old Testament Saints and he does to us.

Not as fully.


What did Abraham say to the rich man?

"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:25-31)

terrell

Yes, we must pay attention to the whole revelation of God - but in these last days, God has spoken to us in His Son. And He says to all of us: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!"

tgallison
Feb 26th 2008, 01:33 PM
Sin was found in his heart.

You won't find those precise words spoken of him in Phil 3 (actually at the time I typed it, I thought you meant King Saul - either way, my point is the same.

Because he inherited Adam's sinful nature, as we all do.

Not as fully.

Yes, we must pay attention to the whole revelation of God - but in these last days, God has spoken to us in His Son. And He says to all of us: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!"

Nigel

The point about Satan, Paul, Job, and Adam as far as that goes, though I hadn't included Adam, is at some point they were all blameless.

The point being perfect and blameless does not necessarily equate to being in Christ.

Your point about Job is that because Job's righteousness is as filthy rags, God couldn't have been speaking of Job's own righteousness, Job had to have accepted God's righteousness at some point.

REASONS WHY THAT CAN'T BE SO.

1. Job's sins where not forgiven. (Job 7:21)

2 Job did not know who God is or where to find him. (Job 9:24)

3. Job was a hired servant. (Job 7:1-2) (Job 14:6)

4. Job was depending on his own righteousness to save him.

a. Job 27:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."

b. Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem."

c. Job. 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?"

d. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"

e. Job 40:14 "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

You say we must pay attention to the whole revelation of God in regards to how God deals with man. (Old Testament verses new New Testament)

I say there is no difference. It is one Book. It is one story.

Remember the parable of the vineyard, where God sent his servants to collect of the fruit of the vineyard, and they beat them, and then he sent his son and they killed him.

That story covers both Testaments, yet it is one story.

From the day of Adam it has always been the same. Nothing new under the sun.

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 26th 2008, 03:12 PM
Nigel

The point about Satan, Paul, Job, and Adam as far as that goes, though I hadn't included Adam, is at some point they were all blameless.

Do you mean sinless? If so, only Satan and Adam fal into that category. As for Paul, God never pronounced him blameless - but God DID pronounce Job as such - and His testimony is always true!


The point being perfect and blameless does not necessarily equate to being in Christ.

How is it possible to be anything other than under the wrath of God if we are not in Christ?


Your point about Job is that because Job's righteousness is as filthy rags, God couldn't have been speaking of Job's own righteousness, Job had to have accepted God's righteousness at some point.

Correct.


REASONS WHY THAT CAN'T BE SO.

1. Job's sins where not forgiven. (Job 7:21)

You're quoting it out of context - Job asked if he had sinned and if so, why was God not forgiving him?


2 Job did not know who God is or where to find him. (Job 9:24)

No - he was saying that he could only understand God as working in one particular way and if that was not the case, he did not understand where or who God was. You are taking theses phrases in isolation and not looking at the big picture. Have you never questioned God's ways or doubted him as a believer? Have you never had a struggle that makes you question your faith? or God's good purposes? It doesn't sound like you have yet.


3. Job was a hired servant. (Job 7:1-2) (Job 14:6)

COMPLETELY taken out of context! Job is describing man's lot in general - in BOTH passages!

[quote]4. Job was depending on his own righteousness to save him.


a. Job 27:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."

Well, if (as I believe) it was God-given, then of course he should be holding on to it! To let go would be to go back to sin!


b. Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem."

YEY!!!! This is the righteousness of faith! Imputed righteousness that all believers are clothed with (Zech 3)! If he "put it on" it must have been external!!!! Thanks for such a great verse!!!!! :pp


c. Job. 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?"

I may be missing something, but did Job actuaklly say that?


d. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"

I never said Job was perect - God is correcting his faulty thinking of Him.


e. Job 40:14 "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

There is no question that, while Job was confused about his relationship with God (as we are in so many ways as well), he was still right with God - the whole language is of a loving father chastening his son, not a holy God pouring out judgement on a wicked individual - note that God deals with Job in this way BEFORE Job repents!!!!!


You say we must pay attention to the whole revelation of God in regards to how God deals with man. (Old Testament verses new New Testament)

I say there is no difference. It is one Book. It is one story.

Amen! Refreshing to find someone on this Forum who ISN'T a Dispensationalist!


Remember the parable of the vineyard, where God sent his servants to collect of the fruit of the vineyard, and they beat them, and then he sent his son and they killed him.

That story covers both Testaments, yet it is one story.

From the day of Adam it has always been the same. Nothing new under the sun.

terrell

Agreed - yet you must admit that we have FAR MORE revelation now that Christ has come and all truth has been revealed to the NT writers than the OT saints had?

tgallison
Feb 26th 2008, 07:01 PM
Do you mean sinless? If so, only Satan and Adam fal into that category. As for Paul, God never pronounced him blameless - but God DID pronounce Job as such - and His testimony is always true!

Nigel

You say God never pronounced Saul/Paul blameless.

KJV Philippians 3:6 "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

NIV Job 1:8 "Then the Lord said to Satan. Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Everything you believe about Job is hinged on this one verse. Take this verse and where it is repeated (Job 2:3) out of the book of Job, and you would have to reappraise your accessment of Job.

Your argument is that God said it, and that makes it true. Paul said it, and that makes it false. Is that what I hear you saying?

If Paul was blameless before God, yet without Christ, why cannot Job be blameless before God, yet without Christ.

I was always under the impression that all scripture was given from God, through the Holy Spirit, by man.

You have stated all the scripture I quoted from Job, Elihu, and God, was somehow taken out of context. My contention is that you misconstrued the verses, Job 1:8 and Job 2:3. That they equate to Job being in Christ.

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 26th 2008, 09:42 PM
Nigel

You say God never pronounced Saul/Paul blameless.

KJV Philippians 3:6 "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

As you say later, that was Saul's assessment of himself - were it to have been true, he would not have needed Christ. As it turned out, once he came to know Christ, he realised that what he ONCE counted as gain he NOW counts as LOSS!


NIV Job 1:8 "Then the Lord said to Satan. Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Everything you believe about Job is hinged on this one verse. Take this verse and where it is repeated (Job 2:3) out of the book of Job, and you would have to reappraise your accessment of Job.

But why take them out?!? The fact that the verse is REPEATED shows how important it is!


Your argument is that God said it, and that makes it true. Paul said it, and that makes it false. Is that what I hear you saying?

Yes - what's your problem? Paul had realised that all his righteousness was as filthy rags - S**T!!! That was God's true revelation of Paul's so-called "righteousness" - but because God challenged Satan to look at HIS handiwork in Job, it must have been TRUE righteousness, wrought in GOD! God does not contradict himself! Righteousness by works - from Cain through to Saul - is an abomination to Him! But righteousness that is by faith - from Abel to Paul - is what justifies a man or woman before God!


If Paul was blameless before God, yet without Christ, why cannot Job be blameless before God, yet without Christ
.

Because he DID have Christ - otherwise God would not have pronounced him TRULY blameless and upright! He believed in the Messiah that was to come - "I KNOW that my Redeemer lives!"


I was always under the impression that all scripture was given from God, through the Holy Spirit, by man
.

Correct.


You have stated all the scripture I quoted from Job, Elihu, and God, was somehow taken out of context. My contention is that you misconstrued the verses, Job 1:8 and Job 2:3. That they equate to Job being in Christ.


terrell


One who is in Christ can and does fall and can be puffed up with pride, as Job was - Elihu's rebukes were correct - he was the only one of Job's friends who truly represented God - and God's assessment was of course true as well - but he speaks to Job as a chastening yet loving Father - God does NOT speak to defiant sinners like this! And this was BEFORE Job repented! Christians can and MUST repent after we are saved - it's not a "one off" - it's a way of life! That's what it was with Job - a godly man, tried and tested WAY beyond most of us EVER will be - and one whose humanity and sinfulness is all too obvious at times - but yet one who trusted in God throughout, EVEN when he did not understand God's ways AT ALL! It really is disrespectful to the memory of one of the greatest saints in the bible to criticise him the way you and Naphal have been doing - the perseverance/steadfastness James speaks of was his ENTIRE life! Not just after he repented or before his struggle started! We should have the same approach he had - and his letter is all about enduring through trials!

tgallison
Feb 26th 2008, 11:07 PM
[/color]

As you say later, that was Sau;s assessment of himself - were it to have been true, he would not have needed Christ. As it turned out, once he came to know Christ, he realised that he ONCE counted as gain he NOW counts as LOSS!

Nigel

It is obvious by the context of the scripture that Paul was stating he was blameless in the righteousness of the Law, while he was yet without Christ. This statement was made by Paul while he was in Christ. What he now counts as loss, was his righteousness in good works.

terrell

tgallison
Feb 27th 2008, 12:05 AM
One who is in Christ can and does fall and can be puffed up with pride, as Job was - Elihu's rebukes were correct - he was the only one of Job's friends who truly represented God - and God's assessment was of course true as well - but he speaks to Job as a chastening yet loving Father - God does NOT speak to defiant sinners like this! And this was BEFORE Job repented! Christians can and MUST repent after we are saved - it's not a "one off" - it's a way of life! That's what it was with Job - a godly man, tried and tested WAY beyond most of us EVER will be - and one whose humanity and sinfulness is all too obvious at times - but yet one who trusted in God throughout, EVEN when he did not understand God's ways AT ALL! It really is disrespectful to the memory of one of the greatest saints in the bible to criticise him the way you and Naphal have been doing - the perseverance/steadfastness James speaks of was his ENTIRE life! Not just after he repented or before his struggle started! We should have the same approach he had - and his letter is all about enduring through trials!

Nigel

Elihu was not one of Jobs friends. He was sent by God to be Job's daysman, his mediator, his judge. Job asked for one to stand between him and God, one who was like Job, made of clay. One who wouldn't terrify him. That is why he was even younger than Job.

I picture Elihu as coming out of nowhere, a stranger that no one recognizes. He probably was not even there while Job and his three friends were debating.

Job 32:14-16 "Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches. They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking. When I had waited,(for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more.)"

I believe they were amazed because Elihu was not there while Job's words were directed to the three friends, yet he had heard them.

Why do you believe they were amazed and couldn't speak?

KJV Job 33:6 "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay."

Elihu is saying, you asked God for a man to be in his place, and here I am.

Is Elihu lying? Or do you feel I am taking it out of context?

Job 36:4 "For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee."

Was Elihu saying that God was here.

Job 37:16 "Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?"

The 33 chapter of Job is an outline of God's dealing with Job.

I have not criticized Job. He is God's chosen.

terrell

Mograce2U
Feb 27th 2008, 04:52 AM
Terrell,
Check this out:

(Job 32:2 KJV) Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Elihu = "He is God"
Barachel = "Blessed of God"
Ram - "High"
Buz-ite = "Patron"

What if Elihu was an OT Christophany? When Job is instructed to pray for his 3 friends, Elihu is not mentioned. And his testimony is of the grace and sovereignty of God... his sudden appearance in the story as one sent to mediate for Job in answer to prayer is certainly curious.

Naphal
Feb 27th 2008, 08:23 AM
Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

The first three, Jobs "friends"

464

0464 'Eliyphaz {el-ee-faz'}

from 0410 and 06337;; n pr m

AV - Eliphaz 15; 15

Eliphaz = "my God is (fine) gold"
1) Esau's son, father of Teman
2) the Temanite friend of Job


H464
אליפז
'ĕlîyphaz
el-ee-faz'
From H410 and H6337; God of gold; Eliphaz, the name of one of Job’s friends, and of a son of Esau: - Eliphaz.


This mans name means his God is Gold, not exactly a great name to have, nor is being a descendant of Esau very positive.


1085

01085 Bildad {bil-dad'}

of uncertain derivation;; n pr m

AV - Bildad 5; 5

Bildad = "confusing (by mingling) love"
1) the second friend of Job



This one means to be confused by love, perhaps even love of gold or other things. Confusion does not mix with wise counsel.



Bildad
Son of contention, one of Job's friends. He is called “the Shuhite,” probably as belonging to Shuah, a district in Arabia, in which Shuah, the sixth son of Abraham by Keturah, settled (Gen_25:2). He took part in each of the three controversies into which Job's friends entered with him (Job_8:1; Job_18:1; Job_25:1), and delivered three speeches, very severe and stern in their tone, although less violent than those of Zophar, but more so than those of Eliphaz.

Bildad
bil´dad (בּלדּד, bildadh, “Bel has loved”): The second of the three friends of Job who, coming from distant regions, make an appointment together to condole with and comfort him in his affliction (Job_2:11). He is from Shuah, an unknown place somewhere in the countries East and Southeast of Palestine (or the designation Shuhite may be intended to refer to his ancestor Shuah, one of Abraham's sons by Keturah, Gen_25:2), and from his name (compounded with Bel, the name of a Babylonian deity) would seem to represent the wisdom of the distant East. His three speeches are contained in Job 8; 18 and Job_25:1-6. For substance they are largely an echo of what Eliphaz has maintained, but charged with somewhat increased vehemence (compare Job_8:2; Job_18:3, Job_18:4) because he deems Job's words so impious and wrathful. He is the first to attribute Job's calamity to actual wickedness; but he gets at it indirectly by accusing his children (who were destroyed, Job_1:19) of sin to warrant their punishment (Job_8:4). For his contribution to the discussion he appeals to tradition (Job_8:8-10), and taking Eliphaz' cue of cause and effect (Job_8:11) he gives, evidently from the literary stores of wisdom, a description of the precarious state of the wicked, to which he contrasts, with whatever implication it involves, the felicitous state of the righteous (Job_8:11-22). His second speech is an intensified description of the wicked man's woes, made as if to match Job's description of his own desperate case (compare 18:5-21 with 16:6-22), Thus tacitly identifying Job with the reprobate wicked. His third speech (Job_25:1-6), which is the last utterance of the friends, is brief, subdued in tone, and for substance is a kind of Parthian shot, reiterating Eliphaz' depravity idea, the doctrine that dies hardest. This speech marks the final silencing of the friends.



6691

06691 Tsowphar {tso-far'}

from 06852;; n pr m

AV - Zophar 4; 4

Zophar = "sparrow"
1) the 3rd friend of Job


This one doesnt appear negative until we check out its root word for a hint of the names implication:

6852

06852 tsaphar {tsaw-far'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1958; v

AV - depart early 1; 1

1) (Qal) to go early, depart early
1a) meaning dubious


"dubious" means deceitful. His name reminds me of the saying "a little bird told me" which often refers to some bit of information secretly given, oft times some form of gossip or rumor which is based in deceit and dubiousness.

Zophar
Chirping, one of Job's friends who came to condole with him in his distress (Job_2:11. The LXX. render here “king of the Mineans” = Ma'in, Maonites, Jdg_10:12, in Southern Arabia). He is called a Naamathite, or an inhabitant of some unknown place called Naamah.







Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.


453

0453 'Eliyhuw {el-ee-hoo'} or (fully) 'Eliyhuw' {el-ee-hoo'}

from 0410 and 01931;; n pr m

AV - Elihu 11; 11

Elihu = "He is my God"
1) the younger man who rebuked Job and his three friends


HE is our God, the HE being the Lord

Elihu
Eli'hu (whose God is he (Jehovah).
1. One of the interlocutors, in the book of Job. See Job; Job, The Book of. He is described as the "son of Baerachel, the Buzite."



Elihu was also the only other Israelite other than Job, a man of royalty as documented by "the kindred of Ram"

Ram
exalted. (1.) The son of Hezron, and one of the ancestors of the royal line (Ruth 4:19). The margin of 1 Chr. 2:9, also Matt. 1:3, 4 and Luke 3:33, have "Aram."


Aram
689 Aram {ar-am'}

of Hebrew origin 07410;; n pr m

AV - Aram 3; 3

Aram or Ram = "high"
1) an ancestor of Christ





Elihu's fathers name:

1292

01292 Barak'el {baw-rak-ale'}

from 01288 and 0410;; n pr m

AV - Barachel 2; 2

Barachel = "God blesses"
1) father of Elihu

God blessed Elihu with great wisdom surpassing his years. No doubt Elihu's father was a righteous man as well.

Barachel
Whom God has blessed, a Buzite, the father of Elihu, one of Job's friends (Job_32:2, Job_32:6).

Barachel
that bows before God
(same as Barachias)

Elihu is no more wrong to have spoken up, seeing and hearing Job speak against God and listen to his three friends give bad advice, than Paul does in the NT when he is upset with the various churches and peoples. Paul wasnt arrogant or the voice of satan, neither was Elihu. Read Elihus words, and then read Gods...they are very similar. Elihu is the type of the Godly man, a good heart, knowledgeable in scripture and not afraid to stand up to 4 older men when he sees them speaking against God! Job is the type of man who stumbled a bit but repented and was forgiven and blessed by God, and the three other friends are types of those punished by God for their incompetence and lack of faith.


1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.


Is Paul guilty of arrogance here? Is he wrong to speak down to these ones, calling them babes and in need of milk? No, Paul spoke the truth directly and plainly and factually...so too did Elihu.


1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Here he claims that God has made him a "masterbuilder", laying the foundation of the church! Arrogance? No, just facts. I'm sure someone could take these things out of context and try to make Paul look arrogant just as one could do with Elihu but Paul isnt being arrogant here anymore than Elihu was. Elihu saw people wronging God and it upset him. The world could do well to have more of such examples.


So, we have one man of Esau who has gold for his God, a man confused by love, and a dubious man...and lastly a young Israelite man who has the true God, whose fathers name means God blesses. Which of the four do you think had the right counsel? Easy, the only one God didnt rebuke.

tgallison
Feb 27th 2008, 01:33 PM
Terrell,
Check this out:

(Job 32:2 KJV) Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Elihu = "He is God"
Barachel = "Blessed of God"
Ram - "High"
Buz-ite = "Patron"

What if Elihu was an OT Christophany? When Job is instructed to pray for his 3 friends, Elihu is not mentioned. And his testimony is of the grace and sovereignty of God... his sudden appearance in the story as one sent to mediate for Job in answer to prayer is certainly curious.

Robin Greetings

Elihu said he was speaking on God's behalf.

Elihu said he was perfect in knowledge.

Elihu said he was in the place of God.

Only one other person in the Bible rates above that, and that is Jesus. Jesus is God.

To say that you are in the place of God is one of the most profound statements in the Bible.

Joseph said, Genesis 50:19 "And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?"

Jacob said, Genesis 30:2 "And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?"

The only Bible version that says, "Behold I am, according to thy wish, in God's stead,---", is the KJV.

This has to be one of the most controversial statements in the Bible. It would be a lot easier to leave this verse out, than stand on it.

All the versions have in them that Elihu was perfect in knowledge, and speaking on God's behalf.

If Elihu is perfect in knowledge, and speaking on God's behalf, than surely he was standing in God's place.

If Elihu was not a liar, then you must read what Elihu says, as if God was saying it himself.

Do not like terms like Christophany, because of any connotations that may be associated with the word. The Bible says what it says.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 27th 2008, 04:55 PM
Nigel

Elihu was not one of Jobs friends. He was sent by God to be Job's daysman, his mediator, his judge. Job asked for one to stand between him and God, one who was like Job, made of clay. One who wouldn't terrify him. That is why he was even younger than Job.

I picture Elihu as coming out of nowhere, a stranger that no one recognizes. He probably was not even there while Job and his three friends were debating.

Job 32:14-16 "Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches. They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking. When I had waited,(for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more.)"

I believe they were amazed because Elihu was not there while Job's words were directed to the three friends, yet he had heard them.

Why do you believe they were amazed and couldn't speak?

KJV Job 33:6 "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay."

Elihu is saying, you asked God for a man to be in his place, and here I am.

Is Elihu lying? Or do you feel I am taking it out of context?

Job 36:4 "For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee."

Was Elihu saying that God was here.

Job 37:16 "Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?"

The 33 chapter of Job is an outline of God's dealing with Job.

I have not criticized Job. He is God's chosen.

terrell


Completely in agreement with all of that, terrell. :)

9Marksfan
Feb 27th 2008, 04:56 PM
Terrell,
Check this out:

(Job 32:2 KJV) Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Elihu = "He is God"
Barachel = "Blessed of God"
Ram - "High"
Buz-ite = "Patron"

What if Elihu was an OT Christophany? When Job is instructed to pray for his 3 friends, Elihu is not mentioned. And his testimony is of the grace and sovereignty of God... his sudden appearance in the story as one sent to mediate for Job in answer to prayer is certainly curious.

EXACTLY what I was thinking when I was reading terrell's post! Excellent!

tgallison
Feb 27th 2008, 10:39 PM
OUTLINE OF GOD'S DEALINGS WITH JOB ACCORDING TO THE 33 CHAPTER

Elihu,pronounced by himself to be speaking in God's place, with all of God's wisdom.
(Job 33:6)(Job 36:2,4)

Having been requested by Job of God. (Job 9:14-15)(Job9:19)(Job 9:32-35) (Job 13:19)(Job 16:21)

In the first part of chapter 33 Elihu tells Job to listen to his words. His words shall be pure, for the spirit of God hath made him, and the breath of the almighty hath given him life.

Then Elihu tells Job to stand up, and be ready to answer. This is Job's day in court.

Then Elihu tells Job that he is in the place of God, only he is a man made out of clay. That his terror will not make Job afraid neither will his hand be heavy upon him.

Elihu tells Job that he has heard everything that Job has said. That there are three statements Job made that are untrue.

1. Job said, that he was innocent, without iniquity. Elihu says, untrue.

2. Job said, that God counted him as his enemy, and finds occasion against him. Elihu says, untrue.

3. Job said, that God put his feet in the stocks, and marked all his paths. Elihu says, untrue.

Then Elihu says that Job was striving against God. That God spoke more than once to Job in a vision, in a dream. But Job didn't want to be withdrawn from his purpose.

Elihu says God does this to keep pride from Job, and withdraw Job from his purpose. God does this to keep Job's soul from the pit.

Because Job will not listen, he is chastened with pain, and yet his soul draws closer to the grave.

If there is a witness to testify to Job of God's righteousness, then God is gracious to Job, and says send him not to the pit, I have found a ransom.

Jesus Christ is the only ransom that can keep your soul from the pit.

The next verse can only be a picture of being born again.

Job 33:25 "His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth."

The only way your flesh can be fresher than a child's is to be in the mother's womb.

John 3:3-4 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Then Elihu says, if you pray to God, confessing you are a sinner, you will see God's face with joy.(his life shall see the light[Jesus Christ is the light of the world])

Job has just been witnessed to of God's grace. He has not answered yet, but he is listening, with his mouth shut.

Three times Elihu has spoken of delivering Job's soul from the pit. To have your soul delivered from the pit is salvation.

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 28th 2008, 12:02 AM
OUTLINE OF GOD'S DEALINGS WITH JOB ACCORDING TO THE 33 CHAPTER

Elihu,pronounced by himself to be speaking in God's place, with all of God's wisdom.
(Job 33:6)(Job 36:2,4)

Having been requested by Job of God. (Job 9:14-15)(Job9:19)(Job 9:32-35) (Job 13:19)(Job 16:21)

In the first part of chapter 33 Elihu tells Job to listen to his words. His words shall be pure, for the spirit of God hath made him, and the breath of the almighty hath given him life.

Then Elihu tells Job to stand up, and be ready to answer. This is Job's day in court.

Then Elihu tells Job that he is in the place of God, only he is a man made out of clay. That his terror will not make Job afraid neither will his hand be heavy upon him.

Elihu tells Job that he has heard everything that Job has said. That there are three statements Job made that are untrue.

1. Job said, that he was innocent, without iniquity. Elihu says, untrue.

2. Job said, that God counted him as his enemy, and finds occasion against him. Elihu says, untrue.

3. Job said, that God put his feet in the stocks, and marked all his paths. Elihu says, untrue.

Then Elihu says that Job was striving against God. That God spoke more than once to Job in a vision, in a dream. But Job didn't want to be withdrawn from his purpose.

Elihu says God does this to keep pride from Job, and withdraw Job from his purpose. God does this to keep Job's soul from the pit.

Because Job will not listen, he is chastened with pain, and yet his soul draws closer to the grave.

If there is a witness to testify to Job of God's righteousness, then God is gracious to Job, and says send him not to the pit, I have found a ransom.

Jesus Christ is the only ransom that can keep your soul from the pit.

Agreed - good point.


The next verse can only be a picture of being born again.

Job 33:25 "His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth."

Or complete healing - remember he was covered in sores!

The only way your flesh can be fresher than a child's is to be in the mother's womb.

John 3:3-4 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Then Elihu says, if you pray to God, confessing you are a sinner, you will see God's face with joy.(his life shall see the light[Jesus Christ is the light of the world])

Job has just been witnessed to of God's grace. He has not answered yet, but he is listening, with his mouth shut.

Three times Elihu has spoken of delivering Job's soul from the pit. To have your soul delivered from the pit is salvation.[/quote]

Or restoration from a period of backsliding:-

"Behold, God works all these things, twice, in fact, three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the Pit, that he may be enlightened with the light of life". Job 33:29-30 NKJV

It's clear from ch1 that Job is an outstanding man of faith and holiness - God would not dispaly him before Satan if his righteousness had not been wrought in God and was purely self-righteousness and pride.

Nigel

terrell
[/quote]

tgallison
Feb 28th 2008, 01:35 AM
Or restoration from a period of backsliding:-

"Behold, God works all these things, twice, in fact, three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the Pit, that he may be enlightened with the light of life". Job 33:29-30 NKJV

It's clear from ch1 that Job is an outstanding man of faith and holiness - God would not dispaly him before Satan if his righteousness had not been wrought in God and was purely self-righteousness and pride.


[/quote]

Nigel

If Job was saved from chapter 1, how could his soul be in danger of going to the pit, for not being perfect at the end.

Do you believe you can lose your salvation?

9Marksfan
Feb 28th 2008, 04:35 PM
Nigel

If Job was saved from chapter 1, how could his soul be in danger of going to the pit, for not being perfect at the end.

Do you believe you can lose your salvation?

This is the mystery that explains the centuries-old debate between Calvinists and Arminians - at the same time we CAN fall away and give up her faith (ie we have the capacity and ability to do so) - yet we WON'T because God will not allow it to happen. You Arminians overstress the first and explain away the second. Free gracers and (I'm ashamed to say) some Calvinists overstress the second and explain away the first. Both are true - I guess we'll find out how they were able not to contradict each other when we meet the Lord Jesus and we "shall know even as [we are] fully known"!

tgallison
Feb 28th 2008, 06:21 PM
This is the mystery that explains the centuries-old debate between Calvinists and Arminians - at the same time we CAN fall away and give up her faith (ie we have the capacity and ability to do so) - yet we WON'T because God will not allow it to happen. You Arminians overstress the first and explain away the second. Free gracers and (I'm ashamed to say) some Calvinists overstress the second and explain away the first. Both are true - I guess we'll find out how they were able not to contradict each other when we meet the Lord Jesus and we "shall know even as [we are] fully known"!

Nigel

You called me an Arminian, have no idea what that means. Hope it is not bad.

I do believe that once you are sealed by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, that you are in no danger of going to the pit.

A simple yes or no, to the question can you lose your salvation, would suffice.

terrell

9Marksfan
Feb 28th 2008, 06:44 PM
Nigel

You called me an Arminian, have no idea what that means. Hope it is not bad.

Well, I guess it depends on your standpoint! To some folk it's a compliment!


I do believe that once you are sealed by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, that you are in no danger of going to the pit.

Good - I agree - but strangely, God still warns professing believers to watch how they live or that will be where they end up!


A simple yes or no, to the question can you lose your salvation, would suffice.

terrell

No - but I still believe Job was saved before Job 33.

Mograce2U
Feb 29th 2008, 01:49 AM
Or restoration from a period of backsliding:-

"Behold, God works all these things, twice, in fact, three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the Pit, that he may be enlightened with the light of life". Job 33:29-30 NKJV

It's clear from ch1 that Job is an outstanding man of faith and holiness - God would not dispaly him before Satan if his righteousness had not been wrought in God and was purely self-righteousness and pride.

Nigel
I think that may be exactly what is going on in Job, who was a man of faith, albeit in some hidden sin and some ignorance - this is a picture of how God deals with a believer. Is this not what sanctification is about for the believer? Bringing correction and building up one's faith?

tgallison
Mar 1st 2008, 12:31 AM
Well, I guess it depends on your standpoint! To some folk it's a compliment!

No - but I still believe Job was saved before Job 33.

Nigel Greetings

Did you mean it as a compliment?



If Job was saved before Job chapter 33, then there is a problem unless you believe you can lose your salvation.

There is no other way to interpret what Elihu said, other than Job was in danger of losing his soul.

terrell

tgallison
Mar 1st 2008, 12:34 AM
I think that may be exactly what is going on in Job, who was a man of faith, albeit in some hidden sin and some ignorance - this is a picture of how God deals with a believer. Is this not what sanctification is about for the believer? Bringing correction and building up one's faith?

Robin

I would say its more of a picture of Adam who was perfect and blameless, until iniquity was found in him, and then he needed a redeemer.

terrell

Naphal
Mar 1st 2008, 06:29 AM
Robin

I would say its more of a picture of Adam who was perfect and blameless, until iniquity was found in him, and then he needed a redeemer.

terrell


I agree except the one main difference is two fold. Job was far more patient than Adam, meaning it took longer for Job to sin against God and Job clearly repents and is rewarded, but we do not see that concerning Adam.

9Marksfan
Mar 1st 2008, 10:22 AM
Nigel Greetings

Did you mean it as a compliment?

No, but not as an insult either! Just a statement of your theological position. I'm not that keen on labels myself but it does help to focus the source of the theological presuppositions and systems (at least in general terms). And for the record, I don't just believe Arminianism has its flaws!


If Job was saved before Job chapter 33, then there is a problem unless you believe you can lose your salvation.

But even if you don't, then why is it "twice, three times" that he is delivered from the pit? Surely if we're saved the first time, then there is no longer any danger?


There is no other way to interpret what Elihu said, other than Job was in danger of losing his soul.

terrell

As I've said, EVERYONE who is tempted to go back to a life of sin or to give up believing is in danger of going to Hell (I prefer that phrase to "losing one's salvation" - that wording is nowhere used in the bible) - the point here is that, because Job was already a true believer, God delivered him and caused him to persevere - THAT is what he was commended for in James 5. God does NOT commend people for their life of sin and self-righteousness - look at Paul's assessment of himself in Phil 3 before he met Christ - that is God's assessment of all of us - all OUR righteousness is as filthy rags in His sight. Now do we agree that God never contradicts Himself? And that His word never contradicts itself, because it is all from Him? If so, then the perseverance of Job in James 5 is an overview of his entire life - James would not commend Job as a self-righteous unconverted sinner! And neither would God - it's clear from chs 1 and 2 that God is well pleased with His servant - why? Because He has produced that good fruit in his life - otherwise He would not have commended him.

Mograce2U
Mar 1st 2008, 05:31 PM
As I've said, EVERYONE who is tempted to go back to a life of sin or to give up believing is in danger of going to Hell (I prefer that phrase to "losing one's salvation" - that wording is nowhere used in the bible) - the point here is that, because Job was already a true believer, God delivered him and caused him to persevere - THAT is what he was commended for in James 5. God does NOT commend people for their life of sin and self-righteousness - look at Paul's assessment of himself in Phil 3 before he met Christ - that is God's assessment of all of us - all OUR righteousness is as filthy rags in His sight. Now do we agree that God never contradicts Himself? And that His word never contradicts itself, because it is all from Him? If so, then the perseverance of Job in James 5 is an overview of his entire life - James would not commend Job as a self-righteous unconverted sinner! And neither would God - it's clear from chs 1 and 2 that God is well pleased with His servant - why? Because He has produced that good fruit in his life - otherwise He would not have commended him.Peter also speaks of Lot in the same vein - whose story hardly seems to fit the claim of a godly man:

(2 Pet 2:7-9 KJV) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: {8} (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds) {9} The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Lot foolishly chose to live in the place where temptation was his daily food - yet the Lord delivered him and this is what marks him as a godly man possessing a righteous soul. Which is pretty much how the Lord describes Job for us - a man He has marked to be delivered.

tgallison
Mar 2nd 2008, 12:35 AM
No, but not as an insult either! Just a statement of your theological position. I'm not that keen on labels myself but it does help to focus the source of the theological presuppositions and systems (at least in general terms). And for the record, I don't just believe Arminianism has its flaws!



But even if you don't, then why is it "twice, three times" that he is delivered from the pit? Surely if we're saved the first time, then there is no longer any danger?



As I've said, EVERYONE who is tempted to go back to a life of sin or to give up believing is in danger of going to Hell (I prefer that phrase to "losing one's salvation" - that wording is nowhere used in the bible) - the point here is that, because Job was already a true believer, God delivered him and caused him to persevere - THAT is what he was commended for in James 5. God does NOT commend people for their life of sin and self-righteousness - look at Paul's assessment of himself in Phil 3 before he met Christ - that is God's assessment of all of us - all OUR righteousness is as filthy rags in His sight. Now do we agree that God never contradicts Himself? And that His word never contradicts itself, because it is all from Him? If so, then the perseverance of Job in James 5 is an overview of his entire life - James would not commend Job as a self-righteous unconverted sinner! And neither would God - it's clear from chs 1 and 2 that God is well pleased with His servant - why? Because He has produced that good fruit in his life - otherwise He would not have commended him.

Nigel

1. Do not know what you think my theological position is, but I am a Christian who believes the Bible is God's word. Do not care to be called something that I am altogether unfamiliar with.

2. Job33:29-30 "Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, to bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living."

("all these things") Just what are all these things?

"For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not."

"He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain."

That is three things God brought about, to keep Job's soul from the pit. Spoke to him twice, and brought strong pain onto him once.

Or do you mean there is two other times Job was redeemed we haven't heard about?

3. Do you mean you can go to hell, but not lose your salvation?

Job was not a true believer.

a. He was a hired servant. (Job 7:1-2) (Job 14:6)

b. He didn't know who God was. (Job 9:24)

c. He was unforgiven. (Job 7:21)

d. He thought the unknown God was going to save him because of his good works, and not because of God's good works. (Job 40:8) (Job 40:14)

4. James 5:11 says that Job was blessed, because he didn't quit crying out to God to save him. And God was merciful to him like he is to all that cry out to him, that seek his face.

5. The only fruit that is recorded of Job producing is the three friends, which were accepted of God, through Job.

terrell

tgallison
Mar 2nd 2008, 12:42 AM
Peter also speaks of Lot in the same vein - whose story hardly seems to fit the claim of a godly man:

(2 Pet 2:7-9 KJV) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: {8} (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds) {9} The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Lot foolishly chose to live in the place where temptation was his daily food - yet the Lord delivered him and this is what marks him as a godly man possessing a righteous soul. Which is pretty much how the Lord describes Job for us - a man He has marked to be delivered.

Robin

Job claimed he didn't know God. To Job, God was the unknown God. (Job 9:24)

terrell