PDA

View Full Version : The heresy of cheap grace



CanuckMedic
Feb 20th 2008, 03:35 PM
Interesting sermon here, basically is a question of do we need to obey, or is simple belief enough to be saved...


http://www.worldinvisible.com/avlib/html_sermons/THE-HERESY-OF-CHEAP-GRACE.html

markedward
Feb 20th 2008, 04:49 PM
Could you please make a summary of the video (i.e., a summarization of the message)?

cwb
Feb 20th 2008, 05:55 PM
Don't have time to watch the video right now but just to comment on the title. I am not sure what is being spoken about when people say cheap grace. Grace was not cheap at all. It cost God His only begotten Son.

threebigrocks
Feb 20th 2008, 06:00 PM
Could you please make a summary of the video (i.e., a summarization of the message)?

CanuckMedic, please do add a description and summary for discussion, so we don't need to remove you thread. ;) It's part of the rules.

CanuckMedic
Feb 20th 2008, 07:29 PM
Threebigrocks I'll post the text of it too, will that suffice? It seems to have some transcription errors so i'd recommend watching it anyway.


Do you know how, Romans and the Greek-speaking people of the first century were able to pick out the Christians, so easily in their society. It was because of the Christians’ behavior. That’s how -- the Christians behaved differently to everybody else. Friends, as I don’t if you realize it, but one of the great banes of life in the first century, was the Plague. Plagues and epidemics of all kinds ravage the major cities of the ancient world. And when the citizens of Rome or Corinth or Philippi, realized that the disease had got out of hand, they all acted the same way. They grabbed all the belongings they could and they fled the city as fast as possible, ‘less they catch the Plague. They left homes behind, they left belongings, livestock, they left their own relatives behind. They were so afraid of these epidemics and Plagues that got completely out of hand in those days.

But the contemporary historians, all testified to the one fact, everybody fled except the people called Christian. And even, if they had escaped the city already, if they knew there were victims back there in the city, their own relatives or others’ friends, they went back despite the threat to their own lives, and they rescued those people. And so they were most noticeable in the society of the first century, by the fact that they did not seem to fear death. And that they would do whatever was needed, to express the love and the kindness of their God to others.

The Christian faith changed the way they behaved. And it was the same in the 18th century in England. In the 18th century in England, all the vices and the inequities, that were plaguing French society were present in English society. There was an upper class that was indifferent to the needs of anybody else, but itself. There was a middle class that wanted power and the ability to rule. There was a working class that saw no reason for living at all that was so poor.

And yet the evangelical revival of Christian faith under Wesley, so changed people’s attitudes to one another, that all historians say the same as Lackey. "The evangelical revival of Christian faith saved England from a French Revolution." And that’s true loved ones, again the Christian faith changed the behavior of the society, so that the classes began to show real humanity and concern and care for one another. And so, they avoided the catastrophic revolution that almost destroyed French Society.

Again, the Christian faith changed the way people behaved. All just -- I think it was thirty years ago, just a little over thirty years ago. The same authentic kind of revival of Christian faith changed life in an area that I think most of you know about, but few of us have ever been to the Northern Hebridean Islands of Scotland. I don’t know, if you know Scottish people but I suppose, I’d be Scotts-Irish and apart from the Irish side, we are a door locked, we really are. And loved ones in the Hebridean Islands of Scotland, are our door silent locked. They can endure and bear a lot but they don’t show much excitement or much interest in anything. And The Hebridean Islands of Scotland were like that, until about 30 or 35 years ago, they experienced a Christian revival of religion.

Really a dramatic movement of God’s spirit in the society, that meant that many came to know God because of their attitude to Jesus. And I think I have shared with you before. It so affected the lives of the community, with people giving back things that they have stolen, apologizing to others for things that they have done. It so affected the lives of the people in community that, the judges and the magistrates wore white gloves in the courtrooms for the first time in living memory, because they had no criminal cases to try. So, again the Christian faith changed the way people behaved.

So, today in America, everybody knows the phrase ‘Born again’. Evangelical Christian faith is more popular in America today, than almost at any other time in our history. Our president is born again, members of the opposite party, that are ousted have been born again, since the tragedy of Watergate. There are TV stars who have been born again, there are singers who have been born again, there are football players who have been born again. There is more money spent on Christian Television and Christian book publishing, than at any other time in our history. There are more people attending church today, than virtually at any other time in our history. And yet, crime on the streets of our cities has increased steadily and relentlessly. That’s true.

We have an anomaly in America at this present time, we have something that calls itself the Christian faith, but does not seem to radically affect the behavior of our society. Here, we have a break from the authentic classic Christianity that has been expressed through out the world, down through the centuries. Here, we have a Christian faith that does not seem to change the way people behave. It has not at all affected the incredible increase and crying that goes on from year to year in our society, both petty and violent crime. This is a kind of Christian faith that seems to be different from the way God’s Spirit has ever operated in the past. It is not producing a change in people’s behavior.
Now why? Why do we face this anomaly? Why are we facing a great rise in Christian activity and you must admit, it’s everywhere, it’s almost sickening at so everywhere -- but why are we rise -- experiencing this tremendous increase in evangelical Christianity, and yet no real change in the morals of our society. We have a society here, that professes Christianity loudly, individuals that profess it loudly, and yet in individual and in social life, the evidence all the moral and the psychological and the social break dance of the Pagan World, and they do you must admit, they do.

Many of us here, no loved ones have had all kinds of moral, social, psychological break dance, and yet they say, yes but we are Christian. Now why loved ones, do we face this? What is wrong with the Gospel that we are preaching in these days; that is preached on radio, on television, that is shared by us in our books and with each other? What is wrong with this Gospel? Because, it isn’t producing the same results as it has produced in the past, in other societies. Two words describe it; two words express the problem with our present Gospel, ‘cheap grace’. That’s it, loved ones, honestly, cheap grace. We are preaching and living a Gospel of cheap grace, not costly grace, but cheap grace and the verse that we’d like to look at it, that we’re studying today, is one of the verses that is used repeatedly to reinforce this idea of cheap grace, and it’s Romans’ 11:6.

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace and that’s a great and a true statement but we misuse it and we misinterpret it. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. Now, we are not the first loved ones, to follow this heresy of cheap grace. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, that German Theologian, who you remember was executed in connection with the plan to assassinate Hitler; wrote in his books repeatedly of the resurgence of cheap grace in our generation. George McDonald, the old Scottish preacher, whose writings lead C.S Lewis into real Christian faith; pointed out that, cheap grace is the idea that Jesus’ death covers our sins, so that God can’t see them even though they are there.

Instead of the true grace, that believes that Jesus’ death is there to destroy sin in us. And that’s what drew C.S Lewis to the Gospel. When he saw that Jesus’ death is not there to cover up our sins, so that God can’t see them, but Jesus’ death is there to destroy sin in us, so that we can be like God. And old Paul you remember, was so stratified in that letter that we read, the part of the letter to the Romans; said what shall we say then, are we to continue and sin that grace may have abound, by no means. How can we all die to sins, to live in it? Don’t you know, that those that were baptized into Christ Jesus, were baptized into his death. We were buried therefore with him, by baptism and the death, so then as Christ was raised from the death by the glory of a father, we too might walk in newness of life. We know our own self was crucified with Christ, so that the sinful body might be destroyed and we might no longer be enslaved to sin, for he who has died is freed from sin.

But, that isn’t the Gospel that is preached loved ones on the whole among us, it isn’t and if you would forgive me just saying, to those loved ones that, my colleagues, who are pastors on television and they are watching, we may think, we preached that but that isn’t what the majority of us are getting. It isn’t that Gospel. Loved ones, I really know this, because I’ve to taught to so many of you and I’ve listen to you and the majority of this, the majority of us get this Gospel. God once decided that only those, who obeyed the Ten Commandments, would get into heaven. But he saw, that we couldn’t obey them, because we all acted everyday an act. We all sinned everyday an act, thought and word. So, he changed the condition, he punished his own son instead of us, for our sins.

So, that any of us, who believe that he did that would get into heaven, whether we obeyed or not. Now, loved ones, you may sit there and say, no that’s not what I’ve got but that’s what the majority of our society belief. They believe that the Gospel is this that God once required obedience to the Ten Commandments from us, but he saw that we can’t obey, because we sin and act thought and word everyday. So, he changed the condition and he punished his own son instead of us and then he said, any of you would give mental assent to this idea, that I have done this, will get into heaven.

So, the majority of people, who are here the Gospel’s day, have the idea that they are now at last relived from the fear of future retribution of any kind for their sins and so, they don’t even have fear, which the normal agnostic has to keep him from sinning or to kind of limit his selfishness. They have the idea, well, it doesn’t matter what I do, it doesn’t matter about sin or obedience or anything now. Obviously, God isn’t concerned about those things. All he wants me to do is to believe, that his son has died for me and he'll let me into heaven, whatever I do and so, what relieved from the normal constraint that even an easiest task to avoid selfishness, Christians tend to feel, well lets face them getting into heaven anyway, because I believed Jesus died for me. I’ve to do my best, I certainly have.

I’ve to do the best I can, to obey what is convenient for me to obey, but any falling short in my part, will be covered by Jesus death anyway. So, really it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter, whether I obey that much or that much as long as, I make good shot at it, I am going to get into heaven anyway. And loved ones, the majority of Christians feel, that God has changed his mind, that he once required obedience to his laws, but now he simply requires mental assent to the idea that Jesus death will get them into heaven and so, they have adopted that. And they have adopted that mental assent attitude and they’ve believed that’s all that’s required and so, of course we have a monstrosity now in our society, called ‘the "Sinning Christian".

The Christian, feels that, you have to avoid sin if you can, but if you can’t, it won’t hurt him and God will forgive him and that’s all that’s needed. And so, he does his best but he has the feeling all the time, that it doesn’t matter even, if he does as well as a non Christian and that’s the incredible thing. Have you ever thought that? Sometimes, I’ve looked at loved ones, who are not Christians at all and have you not felt at times, that they all seem to have a greater sense of responsibility they love other people and be kind to other people and to be honest and aboveboard in their business, than many Christians do. Because sometimes the Christians feel, we have a free ticket into heaven anyway, so there is no great constraint to particularly avoid immorality or be moral. Whereas the poor old nonchristian, who hasn’t that kind of cushion, he feels, well I better be as good as I can, in case there is a man up there and he is going to meet me at the end. But loved ones, is it not true that the majority of us feel that, that’s the Gospel. That God once required us to obey his commandments, but he saw we can’t possibly do it so, he invented this new idea of punishing Jesus instead of us, so that, if we give mental assent to that we’d get into heaven. Of course, it’s meaningless to the intelligent agnostic. Do you know that? It is meaningless. The ordinary intelligent agnostic can see nothing but injustice in a God beating up their own guy, for somebody else’s sin.

CanuckMedic
Feb 20th 2008, 07:30 PM
The ordinary agnostic thinks its madness. How can you claim that a God is just, if he kills the wrong person, for somebody else’s sin and of course the ordinary agnostic doesn’t want to be in heaven, because he thinks, if its going to filled with all these weak willed ideologists, who aren’t at all like Jesus, I don’t want to be there. So, the normal agnostic thinks, this is foolishness but what many Christians do is, they so lovely say, Oh! Brother but that’s the foolishness of the Gospel. Well loved ones, it’s not the Gospel at all, it isn’t.
What is the true Gospel? The true Gospel is pointed out clearly in that verse that we have often quoted in Matthew, where you remember the Angel said to Joseph and Mary, "You shall call His name Jesus for He will save his people from their sins", not in their sins but from their sins.

God does not change; He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has always wanted us to be like Him, He has always wanted us to live in accordance with His will. He did not create an Old Testament of law and obedience, and then replace it with a New Testament of indulging disobedience. God has always wanted us to be like Him, but He looked down and saw that we had used our free wills to get from the world the love that He wanted us to get from Him. Moreover He saw that by that activity over a centuries, we had perverted our own personalities, so that they were so utterly dependent and addicted to things and people for love that we could no longer obey His will for us.

So, He saw that, but loved once He did not then back off and say, "All right, I am contempt to have a group of satanic demons with me forever, who are not like me." He did not say that. Immediately he made a plan to bring us into a state where we would be able to obey as well, and so, He took our perverted little personalities that cannot too good, you are right. "The good that we would we cannot do, the evil we hate is the very thing we do." He took those perverted little personalities, and He destroyed and remade them in the cosmic depth in His Son Jesus, in this super special world of eternity. Heart of which cosmic death, He expressed through Jesus in 29 AD on Calvary.

Now that general death and resurrection that destroys the urgings to anger and then the unjealousy in each one of us, that general death and resurrection can be experienced by you and me day by day. As we submit to the working of the Holy Spirit, who realizes that death and that realization in us as we live each day, and that’s we submit to God’s will with Jesus whatever the cost or the inconvenience, and by that means do you see that miraculous destruction of sin in each one of us, that took place in Jesus eternal death can be made real enough day by day. So, that we move from glory to glory, so that instead of Jesus death being a historical static event, which we give mental assent to, as a reason for our free ticket into heaven, Jesus death becomes a dynamic present operating principle within us, and the power that begins to deliver us from self, and from self-centeredness, and from sin. But loved ones, it is costly, it is costly grace.

Grace means two things, first of all unmerited and undeserved favor, and that was costly to God, God showed unmerited and undeserved favor towards all of us in this room, because even though He could have left us in our perverted tangle personalities, He generously of His own free grace took us and put us in Jesus, and allowed His Son to bear the unbearable agony of having our all contorted personalities with their addiction to people’s opinion onto selfishness, onto pleasure, destroyed in Jesus. Out of His own unmerited and undeserved grace and favory did that. That’s one meaning of grace and it cost, cost to the very point where Jesus felt, He was loosing touch with even His father and cried, "My God, my God why has thou forsaken Me?" that’s one meaning of grace and it was infinitely costly to Jesus.

The other meaning of grace is that as we submit ourselves to this death to ourselves with Jesus day by day, His death and resurrection is actualized in us, but only through our paying the price and it is a price loved ones, it is a costly price. The Holy Spirit will come to you when you’re demanding satisfaction from your loved one, or when you’re demanding respect and acknowledgement from a colleague at work, or when your anger is rising as somebody doesn’t give you what you feel you ought to have, the Holy Spirit will come and will say to you, "You were crucified with Jesus." As he died to the unjustified treatment, the Roman soldiers were meeting out to him, so you died with Him. Now do you want to stay with Him or do you want to get off this Cross, and at that point you’ll have price to pay.

You’ll have to say if you want to continue to experience the power of Jesus life in you, you’ll have to say, "Lord I will", I’ll die to what they think of me, I’ll die to my right to reply an anger here, I’ll die to my right to get what I want, Lord Jesus I’d rather be with you with nothing, then on my own with everything." And at that point the grace is costly loved ones. That’s why all Thomason Ecampus (ph) talks about The Royal Lord of the Holy Cross, because it is a daily experience of self denial, and of dying to what the Holy Spirit is exposing to us of our all self, that was crucified with Christ, but that we aren’t yet willing to let go. That’s what real grace is, and that’s what the real Gospel is. And of course you can see its exiting in one sense, and yet it’s hard and painful and another, and yet loved ones as you begin to go through scripture, you begin to see that, that Gospel makes sense of all the verses of scripture, it just. Just think -- and of that verse in II Corinthians 4. He made him to be sin who knew no sin.

That we might become the righteousness of God in Him, or think of that one in Roman 6, we knew that our old self was crucified with Him, so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be in slave to sin, for he was died he is freed from sin, or think of that one in Roman 8, God did what the law could not do. Sending His own Son in the lightness of sinful flesh and forcing, He condemns in the flesh, that the law might be fulfilled in us. A new sense that Jesus died instead of us in every sins that we died with Jesus, and above all else what is this Gospel do, or what changes us from saints into sinners. It changes us from children of darkness and the children of light, it changes our lives. So, that the world stops and stares, and begins to wonder by what power have you done this.

There’s a contagious disease in the world, and our dear maker is saying, "I have an antidote for it." Submit yourself to these series of injections that I want to give you as you live your life day by day, and I will forgive, and it means partly I will give before you ought to receive it, I will give before, I will forgive you the life that you would have, if you’d never had this disease, but you must submit to this series of injections of my Son’s life, that will involve the taking away of some of your own life that you treasure, and that’s the moment the evangelical world is standing back and saying, "We believe that, that is true, so we’re free from the disease." And you see, you cannot be free from the disease unless you submit yourself to the treatment, but the evangelical world stands back and says, "We believe that, we believe that if we submitted ourselves to the treatment, we would be healed and we would be clenched. Therefore we are healed and clenched. And that’s why loved ones the spirit speaks to one of the seven churches in the last days and says, "You think you are rich and whole and healthy, but you’re poor, blind and deceased." And I think that, that’s the state of much of our evangelicalism, because we’re believing a truncated Gospel that is no Gospel, because it is simply a mental assent. It is mind game, it is not a submission of the will to our dear savior’s experience for us on Calvary. Now I would pray that you would not listen to this and go back to a pure mental assent, to an idea. I would pray that we might be among those who would begin to be changed, and to express scriptural holiness throughout the length and breadth of this land, because that’s what it needs more than anything else. A lot less of the talk, a lot less of even the TV shows, and a lot more Christ like men and women who are honest and kind and don’t lose their temper and make the same impression on this world as our forefathers made…

SammeyDW
Feb 20th 2008, 07:40 PM
CanuckMedic,
Could you break those long posts into paragraphs and
put a line or two between the paragraphs so they are easier to read, please.

CanuckMedic
Feb 20th 2008, 07:44 PM
CanuckMedic,
Could you break those long posts into paragraphs and
put a line or two between the paragraphs so they are easier to read, please.

no problem, hope you enjoy it.

brakelite
Feb 21st 2008, 10:52 AM
The testimony of the true believer is a changed life. There is another quote I like from the same source as that found in the signature below.
"He who has not the faith to believe that God can keep him from sinning has not the faith to gain him entrance to the kingdom of God."
A great sermon, and much needed. There is in the world that form of Christianity the preacher seeks. It is however rare. And the distance between the two forms of Christianity (cheap grace and costly grace) is widening. The former is conforming to the world, the latter is being conformed to the image of Christ.
Sin, in all it's varied and insidious forms must be expunged from the life, and God Himself promises the power to accomplish it. That's grace. That's mercy. That's love. That's the gospel.

Good thread Canuck medic. God Bless.

Regards
Brakelite

SDG
Feb 21st 2008, 11:40 AM
Au contraire, are those who do not find rest in Christ alone, but must look to do something to ensure their salvation, actually taking His yoke?


Matthew 11

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”


The ironic thing is that the term "cheap grace" is best applied to the belief that the grace is so cheap that it isn't good enough by itself! Certainly there are some who claim beliefs about grace and hold a low view of it, however the thought that those who believe in sovereign grace think it is "cheap" is a straw man, at best. :(How can one who realizes his own wickedness and inability to save himself, and the penalty which was paid to grant him such a great salvation, be considering grace cheap?

Romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


In Christ,
Josh

SammeyDW
Feb 21st 2008, 08:06 PM
no problem, hope you enjoy it.

Thank you,
That is much better. :)

Good post, really makes you think.

cwb
Feb 21st 2008, 08:29 PM
The ironic thing is that the term "cheap grace" is best applied to the belief that the grace is so cheap that it isn't good enough by itself! Certainly there are some who claim beliefs about grace and hold a low view of it, however the thought that those who believe in sovereign grace think it is "cheap" is a straw man, at best. :(How can one who realizes his own wickedness and inability to save himself, and the penalty which was paid to grant him such a great salvation, be considering grace cheap?
Josh






Excellent point. Grace is not cheap. Works for salvation is cheap. Not only is it cheap but it will never be sufficient to paid the debt. Only Jesus Christ was able to pay our debt to the father.

brakelite
Feb 21st 2008, 08:56 PM
Au contraire, are those who do not find rest in Christ alone, but must look to do something to ensure their salvation, actually taking His yoke?


Matthew 11

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”


The ironic thing is that the term "cheap grace" is best applied to the belief that the grace is so cheap that it isn't good enough by itself! Certainly there are some who claim beliefs about grace and hold a low view of it, however the thought that those who believe in sovereign grace think it is "cheap" is a straw man, at best. :(How can one who realizes his own wickedness and inability to save himself, and the penalty which was paid to grant him such a great salvation, be considering grace cheap?

Romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


In Christ,
Josh


First, did you not read the sermon? Nowhere was the preacher suggesting that we are saved by works. Nor am I. And when ever someone dares to suggest that we ought to walk as Jesus walked, or that we should actually demonstrate our love for Him by keeping His commandments, people of like minds such as your own throw up excuses for not doing so. Oh, that's salvation by works! Oh, the cross is all we need! Oh, God is sovereign and He does everything regardless of what I do!!! NONSENSE

Do you not know we shall be judged by our works?

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Our obedience is the evidence of our faith. It is works that demonstrate whether we have truly accepted God's gift of salvation by grace through faith. True faith cannot exist without works. Works reveal whether our faith is real.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Please explain how any person calling himself a Christian can claim to be partaking of the divine nature and at the same time continuing in the same old habits and sin that marked his life as an unbeliever.

Romans 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


He that is dead is freed from sin. This is the point the sermon was expounding. In Christ we are set free from the power that sin has over us. We can escape from the corruption of the world. The old habits can be broken. If none of this were true, then we are no better off than an infidel and the world has no evidence of the reality and truth of the Christian life.

Regards
Brakelite.

cwb
Feb 21st 2008, 09:10 PM
First, did you not read the sermon? Nowhere was the preacher suggesting that we are saved by works. Nor am I. And when ever someone dares to suggest that we ought to walk as Jesus walked, or that we should actually demonstrate our love for Him by keeping His commandments, people of like minds such as your own throw up excuses for not doing so. .


That sounds extremely judgmental of you. I do not see even one thing in SDG's post that even suggested that we should not walk as Jesus did. I did not see one thing in His post to suggest that we should not demonstrate our love for Him by keeping His commandments. I understand SDG can speak for himself. However in your post you included "people of like minds" and I posted that I agree with him. That is why I take offense at your accusation against anyone that believes what the scriptures says. And the scriptures say we are saved by grace. You ought to cut out the accusations against people you do not even know.

By the way, I find the very title of your thread to be offensive. Grace is not a heresy. Neither is grace cheap. It cost God His only begotten son. And by the way, if you are saved, it only by God's grace that you are saved. That goes for every single human being.

brakelite
Feb 21st 2008, 09:10 PM
Excellent point. Grace is not cheap. Works for salvation is cheap. Not only is it cheap but it will never be sufficient to paid the debt. Only Jesus Christ was able to pay our debt to the father.

I agree. Grace is not cheap. So why do so many cheapen it by not giving it it's full value? Is it not grace that sanctifies as well as justifies? Is it not grace that changes a down and out drug ridden blasphemer such as I once was to a God-fearing straight servant of the living God? Or are you suggesting that I freed myself from my drug habit? Or that it is by my own power that I am able to keep God's commandments? Or that the love I now have for my neighbor was brought about because I "turned over a new leaf"???

Give God credit where it is due. If He is able to save me He is also able to change me. The change is the evidence of the love He has for me, and also of the faith I have in Him. All by the grace of God. I boast, not in myself, I was helpless. I boast in Him.

Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Regards
Brakelite

cwb
Feb 21st 2008, 09:26 PM
I agree. Grace is not cheap. So why do so many cheapen it by not giving it it's full value? Is it not grace that sanctifies as well as justifies? Is it not grace that changes a down and out drug ridden blasphemer such as I once was to a God-fearing straight servant of the living God?

Yes I believe it was the grace of God that saved you and changed you. It is God's grace that saved me and changed me. It also cost God alot, his only begotten son. How can someone call that cheap?



Or are you suggesting that I freed myself from my drug habit?


Certainly not. It is because of the grace of God, not your own goodness that you are free. Same for me. By the way, did you think I was suggesting that you freed yourself?




Or that it is by my own power that I am able to keep God's commandments?


Again, nope. There is a good possibility that you would not be even alive today to keep God's commandments if it were not for God's grace. Same goes for me.


Or that the love I now have for my neighbor was brought about because I "turned over a new leaf"???


Nope. Again it is God's grace, which some want to call cheap. Nothing cheap about it. Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price for it. It is only because of God's grace that you have the Spirit of God in you which enables you to love your neighbor.



Give God credit where it is due. If He is able to save me He is also able to change me. The change is the evidence of the love He has for me, and also of the faith I have in Him. All by the grace of God. I boast, not in myself, I was helpless. I boast in Him.



I think you have the right attitude.


Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.


Excelllent verse. I love that verse. Thanks for posting it.

Toolman
Feb 21st 2008, 09:54 PM
BL,

I'm just curious. Do you know of any respected evangelical preacher who preaches that preaches a gospel that says God does not care about or bring about sanctification. That it is not Christ's will that we follow Him in love once we are justified?

I am not aware of a single respected evangelical/protestant minister who preaches any such message.

If you are aware of some I'd be interested in hearing who they are.

brakelite
Feb 21st 2008, 11:59 PM
Hi Toolman,
I live in rural New Zealand. It's like a little village here and we don't see many evangelists either good or bad. LOL However, that being said, I do see the fruit of such preaching in the church. I see it here in these forums, and other forums I have visited.
The fruit is this: manmy Christians, and I would suggest the vast majority, live lives that bare no resemblance to the biblical mandate. Righteousness is an embarrassment to them. Commandment keeping is like a foreign language. A life without sin to them is a life of boredom. There is little evidence of the fruit of the Spirit and there is no burden for the lost or desire to witness. The world and the things of the world are more important than the things of heaven. I would strongly suggest that the principle cause of this is the gospel message which informs people wrongly that holiness is an option rather than an essential requirement for entry into heaven. Just as the original sermon says. The church today needs a revival. A return to good old fashioned apostolic purity of heart and mind. For this to happen however, self must die. I fear that is too high a price for many to pay. That is what I and I think the OP meant by cheap grace. We know the price God paid. But are we willing to pay the price? Or do we expect everything for nothing?

Math 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

There is a great error in modern thinking. It is believed by many that salvation is free and unconditional. The above verses show that not only did our salvation cost Jesus His life, but we have to pay for it with our lives also.

Regards
Brakelite.

cwb
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:05 AM
It is believed by many that salvation is free and unconditional.

Salvation is free and unconditional. It is either a gift or it is earned. If it is earned it is not a gift. I choose to believe what the scriptures say. It is a gift.

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:25 AM
.

Salvation is free and unconditional. It is either a gift or it is earned. If it is earned it is not a gift. I choose to believe what the scriptures say. It is a gift.

Salvation is conditional meaning it isn't given to us without us meeting some basic requirements:

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
KJV

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:30 AM
.

Salvation is free and unconditional. It is either a gift or it is earned.


Name the last time you approached a complete stranger and gave them a gift, especially one of such high value.

We don't do that. We give gifts for reasons and to those that have done something deserving of a gift. We give gifts to those that love us, for their birthdays, for special events etc. A gift is always earned in some way.

God does not give salvation to unbelievers. Unbelievers must believe in Christ and become believers and then they receive the promise of this gift!

cwb
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:34 AM
Salvation is conditional meaning it isn't given to us without us meeting some basic requirements:

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
KJV

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I agree there are some basic requirements. I also agree with you that the basic requirements are the one you mentioned. Doing those basic things does not mean we somehow earned our salvation.

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:38 AM
I agree there are some basic requirements. I also agree with you that the basic requirements are the one you mentioned. Doing those basic things does not mean we somehow earned our salvation.

We could have never earned it on our own but we can through Christ by meeting these requirements. It's weird to think of it as "earning" but in terms of being considered worthy to receive this gift, we have to do our part which is somewhat pale in comparison.

cwb
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:43 AM
Name the last time you approached a complete stranger and gave them a gift, especially one of such high value.

We don't do that. We give gifts for reasons and to those that have done something deserving of a gift. We give gifts to those that love us, for their birthdays, for special events etc. A gift is always earned in some way.

God does not give salvation to unbelievers. Unbelievers must believe in Christ and become believers and then they receive the promise of this gift!

God gave us the gift while we were yet sinners and undeserving of it.

Roman 5:6-8
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I understand what you are saying that we have to believe first. Our simple believing does not make us deserving of the gift He gave. He gave the gift because He was good enough to do it, not because we were deserving of it.

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:47 AM
God gave us the gift while we were yet sinners and undeserving of it.

Roman 5:6-8
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I understand what you are saying that we have to believe first. Our simple believing does not make us deserving of the gift He gave. He gave the gift because He was good enough to do it, not because we were deserving of it.

I understand what you mean too. Sure, we really don't deserve it but in God's figuring, there is a way to justify receiving it.

I believe the way to salvation was given to us sinner as a free gift, but to actually get salvation itself we have to meet God's requirements. It's a bit in the wording but I am glad we agree on the details.

brakelite
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:58 AM
Whilst I agree that we cannot earn our salvation, the scripture is clear that to those that received Him gave He power to become children of God. Naphal is right. Those Israelites in the wilderness had to look to the bronze serpent else they died. They didn't earn their health, it was freely given. But it was still conditional.
So also must we look to our Redeemer and receive the gift He offers.
But I am going to take it a step further. Jesus said we must abide in Him. That is we must remain in order to bear fruit. And those who don't bear fruit are cast out.
Jesus also said that if we love Him we should keep His commandments. Not keeping His commandments is disobedience. Do the disobedient receive eternal life?
Jesus also said that the way to life was narrow. As I observe the Christian faith of today, it seems to me that we are trying to make the way wider in order to fit our negligent and worldly life-styles. I fear many are going to be bitterly disappointed when Jesus returns and they are weighed in the balances and found wanting.

Brakelite

David2
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:34 AM
I believe the ultamate solution to this age old argument between conditional and unconditional salvation is in the fact that we must distinguish between status and stand. The only requirement to be born again is faith and nothing more. There are many verses to support this. To be born again gives one the status of a child of God, spiritually complete in every respect.

But your stand as a practically cleansed and sanctified Christian who lives in continual communion with your Lord and Savior is something else. This is our stand and it is not guaranteed that it would come just because you are born again. This is indeed something to work on everyday of your life.

Saving grace is free and unconditional for those that accept it through faith. A dedicated life in service of the Lord and in communion with Him, is the fruit of salvation and does indeed require a graet deal of effort.

DEM

brakelite
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:48 AM
I couldn't agree more. Righteousness comes by faith. This faith must be actively and diligently exercised. Sanctification is not something imposed upon us by a sovereign God without our unrelenting co-operation.
Brakelite

DeafPosttrib
Feb 23rd 2008, 01:10 PM
brakelite,

I really enjoy reading your posts. Everything what you saying, I agree with you 100%.

I used to believed in unconditional salvation doctrine for many years. Till I left this camp 6 years ago, because when I read in Matthew 25:14-30 talking about three servants and the judgment day.

Securists saying, some shall suffer loss the reward at the judgment day, but they are still saved. Many used 1 Cor. 3:15 to support their teaching. But, the context of 1 Cor. 3:1-15 focus on pastors and leaders only. It have do nothing with the 'proof' of unconditional salvation, so called, security salvation. This passage tells us, some pastors shall suffer loss their works test by fire at the judgment day, but he himself(pastors) still saved which speak of his soul.

Now back to Matt. 25:14-30. The first of two servants are faithful, the first one have 5 talents, and did use them, are called, 'well done you faithful servant', then enter into inheritance(speak of eternal life). The second servant did use two talents, the same thing as Lord shall saying to second servant. But, the last third servant do have one talent, but not use it and hide it. Lord shall saying to a servant, "you wicked and slothful(lazy) servant" Then that servant shall be cast away in the darkness -everlasting fire - Matt. 25:30. That verse hits me hard, because it doesn't teaching unconditional salvation. This passage tells us, we must obey and to DO our talents(duty) to obey our master(Jesus Christ), then He will saying to us, "Well done(job), you faithful servant". Then we shall go enter into eternal life. Clear it is conditional.

There are so much overwhelmed evidences in Bible showing us, there are conditionals that, we must meet of our faith to be endure to enter into eternal life. Or if we don't do these things, then we would be cast away into everlasting fire according to Matt. 25:28-30.

Bible commands us to obedience, having faith, to be ednure to the end according Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 03:28 PM
Hi Toolman,
I live in rural New Zealand. It's like a little village here and we don't see many evangelists either good or bad. LOL However, that being said, I do see the fruit of such preaching in the church. I see it here in these forums, and other forums I have visited.
The fruit is this: manmy Christians, and I would suggest the vast majority, live lives that bare no resemblance to the biblical mandate. Righteousness is an embarrassment to them. Commandment keeping is like a foreign language. A life without sin to them is a life of boredom. There is little evidence of the fruit of the Spirit and there is no burden for the lost or desire to witness. The world and the things of the world are more important than the things of heaven.

I understand there are people who claim Christ who fall into many various ditches (license and legalism). That does not constitute that we need to change the Gospel to another ditch. There are extremes and untruths on both sides. We must seek the biblical truth.


I would strongly suggest that the principle cause of this is the gospel message which informs people wrongly that holiness is an option rather than an essential requirement for entry into heaven.

And now you have jumped into the other ditch. Instead of teaching a clear biblical soteriology of justification, sanctification and glorification you have said we must merit God's favor by performance. You've traded the ditch of license for the ditch of legalism. They are both ditches outside the narrow way.


Just as the original sermon says. The church today needs a revival. A return to good old fashioned apostolic purity of heart and mind. For this to happen however, self must die. I fear that is too high a price for many to pay. That is what I and I think the OP meant by cheap grace. We know the price God paid. But are we willing to pay the price? Or do we expect everything for nothing?

You say we are not earing anything in one breath and yet state we earn it in another breath. Either we have our sins forgiven because of Christ's death or we don't and must earn it by some type of performance. You can't have both.


There is a great error in modern thinking. It is believed by many that salvation is free and unconditional. The above verses show that not only did our salvation cost Jesus His life, but we have to pay for it with our lives also.

Regards
Brakelite.

Well this "thought" is not something modern. The scripture has always taught that we are justified (sins forgiven) free and unconditionally. That is the Gospel (good news). Anything else is equivalent to any other man-made religion that teaches that God forgives sin based on our performance.

Now sanctification and glorification have good works that God does thru us tied to them but our justification (sins forgiven) is never tied to our performance but simply looking to Christ and His death alone as what justifies us before God.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 03:35 PM
Name the last time you approached a complete stranger and gave them a gift, especially one of such high value.

We don't do that. We give gifts for reasons and to those that have done something deserving of a gift. We give gifts to those that love us, for their birthdays, for special events etc. A gift is always earned in some way.

God does not give salvation to unbelievers. Unbelievers must believe in Christ and become believers and then they receive the promise of this gift!

I strongly disagree with comparing God with fallen human nature.

God most certainly gives gifts to people hate him and are His enemies. Its in His nature to do so:

Matthew 5:43-48 - “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Here Jesus clearly teaches that to be like God we must love our enemies and do good to them BECAUSE that is what God does.

Romans 5:10 - For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Here we see that while we were still God's enemies He reconciled us to Himself through Christ's death. BEFORE we loved Him He gave us Christ!

We should not compare God's nature with that of fallen man. God loves His enemies and has provided salvation for all of His enemies, before they loved Him, in the person of Jesus Christ.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 03:41 PM
Whilst I agree that we cannot earn our salvation, the scripture is clear that to those that received Him gave He power to become children of God. Naphal is right. Those Israelites in the wilderness had to look to the bronze serpent else they died. They didn't earn their health, it was freely given. But it was still conditional.

The only condition for having sins forgiven is looking to Jesus Christ and His death by faith, trusting that His blood ALONE is what justifies us before God. That is exactly what the bronze serpent represents!


But I am going to take it a step further. Jesus said we must abide in Him. That is we must remain in order to bear fruit. And those who don't bear fruit are cast out.
Jesus also said that if we love Him we should keep His commandments. Not keeping His commandments is disobedience.

As I stated before please list one evangelical/protestant minister who does not teach that we are to bear fruit for Christ? Just one.


Do the disobedient receive eternal life?

Ok, here again you have fallen off into that ditch. This is the Gospel you should be more afraid of because it is much more preached and believed that the license Gospel.

Let's answer that question with another question posed to you.

Have you ever been disobedient to God since you became a believer? Have you ever once disobeyed Him and sinned?

Once you answer that I think you will have an answer to your question.


Jesus also said that the way to life was narrow. As I observe the Christian faith of today, it seems to me that we are trying to make the way wider in order to fit our negligent and worldly life-styles. I fear many are going to be bitterly disappointed when Jesus returns and they are weighed in the balances and found wanting.

Brakelite

Yes, but the ditch on the other side of the narrow way is a way that earns its salvation and it is as much a detour from the narrow way as is license.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 03:57 PM
And let me add... we aren't justified by the works of the Law. That was the message preached by the writers of Scripture.

Do not be deceived into thinking that allows folks to practice sin just because they believe in Jesus. That IS NOT the works Paul or the others preached. They made it clear that those who do these things WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. Call that "earning" if you want to call it that I suppose but rest assured... you cannot do those things and inherit the Kingdom.

cwb
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:27 PM
And let me add... we aren't justified by the works of the Law. That was the message preached by the writers of Scripture.

Do not be deceived into thinking that allows folks to practice sin just because they believe in Jesus. That IS NOT the works Paul or the others preached. They made it clear that those who do these things WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. Call that "earning" if you want to call it that I suppose but rest assured... you cannot do those things and inherit the Kingdom.

ProjectPeter,
It seems from alot of your posts that you think that whenever any person says, "we are saved by grace, it is a gift and not earned" that they are actually saying, "this allows me practice sin all I want". I am just curious and for clarification, is that how you feel? Is saying we are saved by grace equivalent to saying this allows me to sin all I want?

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:32 PM
ProjectPeter,
It seems from alot of your posts that you think that whenever any person says, "we are saved by grace, it is a gift and not earned" that they are actually saying, "this allows me practice sin all I want". I am just curious and for clarification, is that how you feel? Is saying we are saved by grace equivalent to saying this allows me to sin all I want?
There are those that do and if you do then consider my post to you. If you don't... then it wasn't to you.

cwb
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:37 PM
There are those that do and if you do then consider my post to you. If you don't... then it wasn't to you.
Thanks for clarifying.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 06:47 PM
And let me add... we aren't justified by the works of the Law. That was the message preached by the writers of Scripture.

And let me add that we are not justified before God by ANY works whatsoever. Whether those be "works of the Law" or works of any other type.

We are justified before God by Christ's sacrificial death alone and nothing else.

That is what the writers of scripture preached and proclaimed.


Do not be deceived into thinking that allows folks to practice sin just because they believe in Jesus.

And don't be deceived into believing that those who sin will be damned if they believe on Jesus. Those who believe in Jesus, even when they sin, have an assured hope in Him.

While God's grace leads us in our sanctification to resist sin it also comforts us in our justification that our sin is forgiven because of simple trust in Christ and His atoning work.

Athanasius
Feb 23rd 2008, 06:58 PM
We must remember that our faith is actualized through the substance of our actions--the sum total of our works, behavior. Sincere and honest faith is shown through action that reflects such. The fruits of our life.

There is then something to be said for how we act and how it relates to our faith.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:12 PM
And let me add that we are not justified before God by ANY works whatsoever. Whether those be "works of the Law" or works of any other type.

We are justified before God by Christ's sacrificial death alone and nothing else.

That is what the writers of scripture preached and proclaimed.Sure... as long as folks held fast to that belief and progressed in their faith then one day they would realize the promise and would be in fact adopted as sons of God.



And don't be deceived into believing that those who sin will be damned if they believe on Jesus. Those who believe in Jesus, even when they sin, have an assured hope in Him.

While God's grace leads us in our sanctification to resist sin it also comforts us in our justification that our sin is forgiven because of simple trust in Christ and His atoning work.Sin equals death. You live in sin then you'll realize death.

Nicolatianism is what it is... no matter what it might be called today.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:24 PM
Sure... as long as folks held fast to that belief and progressed in their faith then one day they would realize the promise and would be in fact adopted as sons of God.

Of course there is no assurance given to unbelievers. Not much there to discuss. Unbelievers are not justified.


Sin equals death. You live in sin then you'll realize death.

"Live in sin" is just so much religious speak.

Those who truly trust in Christ alone, even when they sin, can rest assured that it is His atoning death alone which justiifies them before God.

They can also rest assured that His grace will work in them to progressively grow in their walk with Him.

They can also rest assured that the Father will raise them up in the last day to be glorified in Christ.


Nicolatianism is what it is... no matter what it might be called today.

Legalism/works-based salvation (galationism) or nicolatianism/license all fall short of the biblical message of God's grace. Always have.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:41 PM
Of course there is no assurance given to unbelievers. Not much there to discuss. Unbelievers are not justified.Not just believers... enduring to the end believers. Enduring the gospel and sin is contrary to that gospel. So enduring contrary to the gospel isn't the enduring Scripture is speaking of.


"Live in sin" is just so much religious speak. Practice it... living in it... nothing "religious speak" about that at all. If you do then you'll reap what you have sown... death.


Those who truly trust in Christ alone, even when they sin, can rest assured that it is His atoning death alone which justiifies them before God.

They can also rest assured that His grace will work in them to progressively grow in their walk with Him.Grace will teach them... grace will equip them... but grace don't do the walking. You do. Your staying on that path is your own race. He don't run that race for you so you can just do whatever.


They can also rest assured that the Father will raise them up in the last day to be glorified in Christ. If they have endured to the end then they will sure enough see the promise.


Legalism/works-based salvation (galationism) or nicolatianism/license all fall short of the biblical message of God's grace. Always have.And again... that is speaking of folks teaching that we must follow the Law of Moses and circumcision. It isn't speaking of sin. Paul even tells them in that chapter that if they do the sin... they'll not inherit the kingdom of God. You, as do many others, make everything a work including sin. So by virtue of that you can sin all you want as long as you believe and hey... you're still covered by the blood. That is contrary to Scripture.

And yes... you will say you don't adhere to that or agree but then that is exactly what you have said in this thread now a couple of times.

Naphal
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:58 PM
I strongly disagree with comparing God with fallen human nature.

We should not compare God's nature with that of fallen man.

There is nothing wrong with comparing any two things. It is only through comparison that we can understand the distance between two things. The argument is moot.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 08:09 PM
Not just believers... enduring to the end believers. Enduring the gospel and sin is contrary to that gospel. So enduring contrary to the gospel isn't the enduring Scripture is speaking of.

Practice it... living in it... nothing "religious speak" about that at all. If you do then you'll reap what you have sown... death.

Grace will teach them... grace will equip them... but grace don't do the walking. You do. Your staying on that path is your own race. He don't run that race for you so you can just do whatever.

If they have endured to the end then they will sure enough see the promise.

As I said those who believe on Christ have the assurance. Those who do not believe upon Him for salvation do not share that assurance.

But the believer does have assurance, regardless of their sin, that Christ died in their place and justifies them before God.

Someone who does not trust in Jesus is an unbeliever and we cannot give them hope before His judgement.


And again... that is speaking of folks teaching that we must follow the Law of Moses and circumcision. It isn't speaking of sin. Paul even tells them in that chapter that if they do the sin... they'll not inherit the kingdom of God. You, as do many others, make everything a work including sin.

Now you've made the accusation lets see you back it up. Show me one post I have ever made where I equated works with sin as being synonymous.

You won't find one because I know my theology.


So by virtue of that you can sin all you want as long as you believe and hey... you're still covered by the blood. That is contrary to Scripture.

Actually you have made the same license by saying that a person can sin and still be saved in the end. Your theology makes a "license" as much as any other.


And yes... you will say you don't adhere to that or agree but then that is exactly what you have said in this thread now a couple of times.

Same thing you claim. You can sin as much as you want as long as you confess and repent. You will say that you don't adhere to that or agree but then that is exactly what you have said multiple times.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 08:11 PM
There is nothing wrong with comparing any two things. It is only through comparison that we can understand the distance between two things. The argument is moot.

As long as when we compare God's nature to human fallen nature we realize the difference between the 2 and not the similarities.

Man's nature gives gifts because he wants to get something (self-centered giving). Not so with God.

So when we observe man's nature we should realize God is different.

cwb
Feb 23rd 2008, 08:17 PM
Nicolatianism is what it is... no matter what it might be called today.

That is a funny context in which you used the word "nicolatianism". I looked it up online to see what it meant since I didn't know. So far I looked at five different sites and they all seem to say the same. Nicolatianism is when cleargy tries to become lord's over God's heritage and conguer the laity. It means when "leaders" want to conguer the people. The what Jesus hates. He said that the greater should be the servant, not the other way around. Jesus Christ certainly is not into the system of hierarchy that many leaders want to promote. He hates it.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 08:30 PM
As I said those who believe on Christ have the assurance. Those who do not believe upon Him for salvation do not share that assurance.

But the believer does have assurance, regardless of their sin, that Christ died in their place and justifies them before God. Past sins. Christ did not die for us to remain sinners.




Someone who does not trust in Jesus is an unbeliever and we cannot give them hope before His judgement. Someone with wrong actions (sin) is also an unbeliever because in their wrong actions (sin) they deny Christ.


Now you've made the accusation lets see you back it up. Show me one post I have ever made where I equated works with sin as being synonymous.

You won't find one because I know my theology. You pretty much did that very thing in like post 37 of this very thread. And if you don't think sin is a work then what are you even arguing with me about?



Actually you have made the same license by saying that a person can sin and still be saved in the end. Your theology makes a "license" as much as any other. No it doesn't because a sinner will not inherit the kingdom of God. I have never stated any other thing in almost 20,000 post in this forum. A person can sin and if they turn from that sin and back to God then God is faithful and just to forgive them. If they don't... they're toast. And you well know that is the difference in my theology and yours. So it makes no license at all and that is really sort of weird for you to say. And again... if you think that then why are you even arguing with me anyway... we would agree. You know we don't agree so you know what you said here is really a big stretch. :rolleyes:


Same thing you claim. You can sin as much as you want as long as you confess and repent. You will say that you don't adhere to that or agree but then that is exactly what you have said multiple times.Oh blah. If you "sin as much as you want" then you are playing games and I've never said anything different than that.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 09:17 PM
Past sins.

All sins, regardless of time, are forgiven to those who trust and believe on Christ.


Christ did not die for us to remain sinners.

A believer and a sinner are 2 different things. A believer is a saint.


Someone with wrong actions (sin) is also an unbeliever because in their wrong actions (sin) they deny Christ.

That is an incorrect definition because saints continue to sin, as even you have admitted multiple times. You still sin yet you remain a believer.


You pretty much did that very thing in like post 37 of this very thread. And if you don't think sin is a work then what are you even arguing with me about?

I wasn't arguing. I was pointing out your error in how a person is justified before God. You alluded that it only regarded the "works of the Law" and I pointed out that was incorrect. We are not justified before God by "stop sinning". We are justified by Christ's atoning blood alone.

As I have said, as long as this forum still allows the proclamation that we are justified before God by trusting in the atoning work of Christ alone I will continue to proclaim it.


No it doesn't because a sinner will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Only saints, those who trust in Christ alone, have assurance. Of course sinners do not have that hope. They have not believed on Christ alone.


I have never stated any other thing in almost 20,000 post in this forum. A person can sin and if they turn from that sin and back to God then God is faithful and just to forgive them.

And there is the loophole. Someone can now read your statements and sin and believe that they can still get the kingdom. They now have a license, even if you didn't intend that.


If they don't... they're toast. And you well know that is the difference in my theology and yours. So it makes no license at all and that is really sort of weird for you to say.

Makes perfect sense to me but just because you can't see it doesn't negate it.


And again... if you think that then why are you even arguing with me anyway... we would agree. You know we don't agree so you know what you said here is really a big stretch. :rolleyes:

Not arguing. My initial post was to reveal your misunderstanding of justification. Nothing more or less.


Oh blah. If you "sin as much as you want" then you are playing games and I've never said anything different than that.

Right. Same games that someone who believes in "cheap grace" (so called) would be playing.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 09:45 PM
All sins, regardless of time, are forgiven to those who trust and believe on Christ.Your problem is... Bible doesn't say any such thing about "regardless of time" in the context of past, present, and future."

But here is what it does ACTUALLY say. ;)

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


You are purified from your past sins... those former ones. You are not from what you do in the future unless you repent and turn from those sins. Now... show me that clear passage that says you are forgiven even for the sin you do years down the road with no need for repentance (changing the mind and turning from that sin) then you're on to something. But it ain't there and you know it. ;)


A believer and a sinner are 2 different things. A believer is a saint. Nah... there is no such thing as a saintly sinner or a "sinner like Christ." It don't work and it just isn't Scripture. It isn't there... no matter how much folks might wish it were.


That is an incorrect definition because saints continue to sin, as even you have admitted multiple times. You still sin yet you remain a believer. You know that I believe that isn't a set in stone rule. I have no doubt that a Christian can mature to a point where they no longer sin. There is no rule that says that a Christian MUST sin. That again is contrary to the Scripture. If we do then we have an advocate with the Father. But one must repent and turn from that sin. Again... you are still totally and intentionally misrepresenting what I say and say often in this forum. That's a fact but hey... why let facts get in the way eh?


I wasn't arguing. I was pointing out your error in how a person is justified before God. You alluded that it only regarded the "works of the Law" and I pointed out that was incorrect. We are not justified before God by "stop sinning". We are justified by Christ's atoning blood alone. Your justification is just that... you are justified IF. That "if" is the part that you run from. Your justification isn't realized... it just positions you here in the nasty now and now. It isn't realized though until you have endured to the end.


As I have said, as long as this forum still allows the proclamation that we are justified before God by trusting in the atoning work of Christ alone I will continue to proclaim it. As will I continue to refute your wrong teaching of this.



Only saints, those who trust in Christ alone, have assurance. Of course sinners do not have that hope. They have not believed on Christ alone.The person that continues in sin is the person that doesn't trust Christ for much of anything.



And there is the loophole. Someone can now read your statements and sin and believe that they can still get the kingdom. They now have a license, even if you didn't intend that. No it isn't because what I teach requires you to turn from that sin... STOP doing it. Your doctrine doesn't require that. Calling that a license "loophole" honestly... that is just silly. If you thought that then you'd not even be arguing with me now nor would the many other ultra-grace folk on this forum. :rolleyes:



Makes perfect sense to me but just because you can't see it doesn't negate it.The only way that could make "perfect sense to me" is for one to totally devoid themselves of even intellectual honesty.


Not arguing. My initial post was to reveal your misunderstanding of justification. Nothing more or less.



Right. Same games that someone who believes in "cheap grace" (so called) would be playing.And that game will send them to an eternity in hell. Call it what you want but there it is.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:09 PM
Your problem is... Bible doesn't say any such thing about "regardless of time" in the context of past, present, and future."

But here is what it does ACTUALLY say. ;)

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

You are purified from your past sins... those former ones. You are not from what you do in the future unless you repent and turn from those sins.
Now... show me that clear passage that says you are forgiven even for the sin you do years down the road with no need for repentance (changing the mind and turning from that sin) then you're on to something. But it ain't there and you know it. ;)

Sure it is. All sin is forgiven the same way "past" sins are forgiven, through trusting in the atoning blood of Christ. Anyone who trusts in Him alone can be assured that ALL their sin is forgiven and not just some.

Romans 4:5-8 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”


Nah... there is no such thing as a saintly sinner or a "sinner like Christ." It don't work and it just isn't Scripture. It isn't there... no matter how much folks might wish it were.

Sinners and saints are 2 different things. The simple reading of any letter written to any Church in the NT reveals that.

Saints are those who have trusted upon Christ.


You know that I believe that isn't a set in stone rule. I have no doubt that a Christian can mature to a point where they no longer sin. There is no rule that says that a Christian MUST sin. That again is contrary to the Scripture. If we do then we have an advocate with the Father. But one must repent and turn from that sin. Again... you are still totally and intentionally misrepresenting what I say and say often in this forum. That's a fact but hey... why let facts get in the way eh?

Nevertheless the you have proclaimed that a believer can sin and still be saved. You say be "repenting and turning", I say by "continuing to trust in Christ's atoning work". We point to different things but the end result is similiar.


Your justification is just that... you are justified IF. That "if" is the part that you run from. Your justification isn't realized... it just positions you here in the nasty now and now. It isn't realized though until you have endured to the end.

As I stated, those who believe on Christ's atoning work alone are justified (and guaranteed to be glorified). The unbeliever does not have that assurance.

Romans 8:29-30 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


As will I continue to refute your wrong teaching of this.

So far you haven't refuted anything I have stated.


The person that continues in sin is the person that doesn't trust Christ for much of anything.

Need to put yourself in that list because you have continued to sin since your new birth. You still have sin today that you battle.


No it isn't because what I teach requires you to turn from that sin... STOP doing it.

No, it allows one to continue sinning. All one has to do is confess and repent.

Cheap grace :)


Your doctrine doesn't require that.

My doctrine presents salvation as scripture does. Justification forgives a person of their sin. Sanctification brings about change progressively in the believer's life to overcome and resist sin. Glorification does away with sin for eternity.


Calling that a license "loophole" honestly... that is just silly. If you thought that then you'd not even be arguing with me now nor would the many other ultra-grace folk on this forum. :rolleyes:

Whenever I see anyone (doesn't matter who) stating that a man can be justified before God by anything else besides the atoning work of Christ on the cross I will show their error.


The only way that could make "perfect sense to me" is for one to totally devoid themselves of even intellectual honesty.

Obvioulsy not. Same people who can twist grace to be "cheap" can do the same with your position. Just arrives there in a different manner.


And that game will send them to an eternity in hell. Call it what you want but there it is.

As I said, unbelievers do not have any assurance of salvation.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:17 PM
Sure it is. All sin is forgiven the same way "past" sins are forgiven, through trusting in the atoning blood of Christ. Anyone who trusts in Him alone can be assured that ALL their sin is forgiven and not just some.

Romans 4:5-8 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

Let's go one at a time here so as to get the point without going longer and longer on one post. Where does that say that sin you continue to commit over and over... now and in the future is forgiven?

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:28 PM
Let's go one at a time here so as to get the point without going longer and longer on one post. Where does that say that sin you continue to commit over and over... now and in the future is forgiven?

Justification of sins is simply that. There is no other way for sins to be forgiven:

Romans 4:5-8 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

God puts no limitations on the number of sins that Christ's blood can justify us from. His blood does not simply cleanse or past sins. His blood cleanses us from sin and forgives our lawless deeds.

It simply states that the one who trusts in Christ alone has sin forgiven. It does not limit that fogiveness to only past sins.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:29 PM
Sinners and saints are 2 different things. The simple reading of any letter written to any Church in the NT reveals that.

Saints are those who have trusted upon Christ. [/quote]And it goes much deeper than that TM. By continuing to trust in Christ covers a wide range of things. Much further than simply yapping about "I do believe in Jesus, I do, I do!" It is a total change of life from the old way. Total. If the old man still rules and reigns supreme in its sinful ways... they ain't going to inherit the promise. They will simply be rejected and turned away.


Nevertheless the you have proclaimed that a believer can sin and still be saved. You say be "repenting and turning", I say by "continuing to trust in Christ's atoning work". We point to different things but the end result is similiar. No... it is as far as the east is from the west different. Again... hence the reason you and every other ultra-grace person debates with me every time such a topic as this comes along since the first day I came to this forum. :rolleyes:





As I stated, those who believe on Christ's atoning work alone are justified (and guaranteed to be glorified). The unbeliever does not have that assurance.

Romans 8:29-30 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. No... they aren't guaranteed unless they have endured to the end. The believer or non-believer has no such guarantee without meeting that sure enough condition.




So far you haven't refuted anything I have stated. Yeah... right. Never heard this before! :lol:


Need to put yourself in that list because you have continued to sin since your new birth. You still have sin today that you battle. Had no problems today or the last couple of days. ;) Shocking as that may sound to folks.



No, it allows one to continue sinning. All one has to do is confess and repent. As long as sin ain't the norm. If it is the norm then there hasn't been any change. If there has been no change then a person need check to see if they are really even in the faith.


Cheap grace :)That's honestly so weird of you to say that I can't even believe you've turned to taking such leaps.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:36 PM
My doctrine presents salvation as scripture does. Justification forgives a person of their sin. Sanctification brings about change progressively in the believer's life to overcome and resist sin. Glorification does away with sin for eternity. Um... not really. :lol:

You ain't glorified until you've endured to the end... ran the race... crossed the finish line... etc. Your "salvation" begins on day one but reality... you've just started the race then... you've not finished it. Many start... few finish hence the many are called but few are chosen. It is a difficult course to run.


Whenever I see anyone (doesn't matter who) stating that a man can be justified before God by anything else besides the atoning work of Christ on the cross I will show their error. And I don't know of anyone that believes as I do (on this forum in particular) who believes it is by any other method than the atoning work of Christ. But hey... nice try though. ;)


Obvioulsy not. Same people who can twist grace to be "cheap" can do the same with your position. Just arrives there in a different manner.There are ditches on most every side of any belief.


As I said, unbelievers do not have any assurance of salvation.And as I said... believers can become unbelievers at any time.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:39 PM
Justification of sins is simply that. There is no other way for sins to be forgiven:

Romans 4:5-8 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

God puts no limitations on the number of sins that Christ's blood can justify us from. His blood does not simply cleanse or past sins. His blood cleanses us from sin and forgives our lawless deeds.

It simply states that the one who trusts in Christ alone has sin forgiven. It does not limit that fogiveness to only past sins.That's what you say but you have no Scripture to back that up TM. I showed you a clear passage that says that it was your PAST sins that were purified. Doesn't say anything about your future sins and as a matter of fact Peter is ragging them about their "present" condition by and large... much less anything future. You still have to contend with that... yet you give a passage that just speaks of sin being forgiven and say that this covers every sin past, present, and even sin you might commit ten years ago and there ya go... no worries! That is not at all even close to what this passage is saying... not even remotely close.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:47 PM
And it goes much deeper than that TM. By continuing to trust in Christ covers a wide range of things. Much further than simply yapping about "I do believe in Jesus, I do, I do!" It is a total change of life from the old way. Total.

Its also a lot more than yapping "I'm doing good, I really am, I really am".

It also involves the recognition that it is ONLY the atoning work of Christ that justifies us before God and not how well we perform.


If the old man still rules and reigns supreme in its sinful ways... they ain't going to inherit the promise. They will simply be rejected and turned away.

As will those who place their trust in how well they perform. Both groups are in danger of the judgement.

It is only those who trust in Christ's atoning work alone as what justifies them before God who can have assurance on that day.


No... it is as far as the east is from the west different. Again... hence the reason you and every other ultra-grace person debates with me every time such a topic as this comes along since the first day I came to this forum. :rolleyes:

Without a doubt you say some conflicting things which make it difficult.

In on post you will say a person must "stop sinning" or they won't be saved.

In another post you will say a person can sin and still be saved but they must "confess and repent".

Those are 2 contradicting statements.


No... they aren't guaranteed unless they have endured to the end. The believer or non-believer has no such guarantee without meeting that sure enough condition.

If they have not endured to the end in belief, then that would make them an unbeliever. Of course they have no assurance.

Only believers can have assurance, those who have believed on His atoning work alone.


Had no problems today or the last couple of days. ;) Shocking as that may sound to folks.

Nevertheless, you have continued to sin since your new birth and yet you remain trusting in Christ, even though you stated that "The person that continues in sin is the person that doesn't trust Christ for much of anything."

When you personally have sinned in the past were you trusting Christ?


As long as sin ain't the norm. If it is the norm then there hasn't been any change. If there has been no change then a person need check to see if they are really even in the faith.

Like I said, I'm not talking about unbelievers. I'm speaking only of those who have trusted Christ and His atoning work alone.

They are not justified before God by "sin not being the norm" (whatever that religious speak means). They are justified before God by trusting in Christ's atoining work alone.


That's honestly so weird of you to say that I can't even believe you've turned to taking such leaps.

Not weird at all. Its just an honest evaluation of what you preach. You see at some point you have to make room for grace (otherwise you would be so far outside Christianity everyone would notice).

Once you make room for grace of course someone can claim "well then that creates license." Any doctrine can be twisted if one tries hard enough.

A person reading your statements could simply take a bit and say "hey I can sin and as long as I confess and repent I'll make it".

Even the tiny iota of grace you allow in your message (which ain't much I'll admit) could be twisted to license.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:50 PM
That's what you say but you have no Scripture to back that up TM. I showed you a clear passage that says that it was your PAST sins that were purified. Doesn't say anything about your future sins and as a matter of fact Peter is ragging them about their "present" condition by and large... much less anything future. You still have to contend with that... yet you give a passage that just speaks of sin being forgiven and say that this covers every sin past, present, and even sin you might commit ten years ago and there ya go... no worries! That is not at all even close to what this passage is saying... not even remotely close.

Sure it does. It clearly says a man's sins are covered and his lawless deeds are forgiven by Christ's atoning work.

The passage very clearly states that it is Christ's atoning work alone and our trust in that that forgives our sin.

There is no limit to that atoning work and scripture never declares a limit to that work.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:56 PM
There are ditches on most every side of any belief.

Yep. But we sure are quick to point out the ditches in other people's areas before our own. :)


And as I said... believers can become unbelievers at any time.

As I said, I can offer no assurance to those who do not trust in the atoning work of Christ alone as what justifies them before God.

Whether they are sinning like crazy or performing really well, if they do not trust in His atoning work alone then they are in danger of His judgement.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:03 PM
Sure it does. It clearly says a man's sins are covered and his lawless deeds are forgiven by Christ's atoning work.

The passage very clearly states that it is Christ's atoning work alone and our trust in that that forgives our sin.

There is no limit to that atoning work and scripture never declares a limit to that work.And again... I have shown a clear passage that the purification is for our PAST sins. I am waiting on your passage that mentions those future ones. This passage doesn't even hint of such and yet you are saying it does which would make it a very clear contradiction of what Peter said. So that passage that mentions future sins is where exactly?

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:05 PM
Its also a lot more than yapping "I'm doing good, I really am, I really am".

It also involves the recognition that it is ONLY the atoning work of Christ that justifies us before God and not how well we perform.

[quote]
As will those who place their trust in how well they perform. Both groups are in danger of the judgement.

It is only those who trust in Christ's atoning work alone as what justifies them before God who can have assurance on that day.



Without a doubt you say some conflicting things which make it difficult.

In on post you will say a person must "stop sinning" or they won't be saved.

In another post you will say a person can sin and still be saved but they must "confess and repent".

Those are 2 contradicting statements.



If they have not endured to the end in belief, then that would make them an unbeliever. Of course they have no assurance.

Only believers can have assurance, those who have believed on His atoning work alone.



Nevertheless, you have continued to sin since your new birth and yet you remain trusting in Christ, even though you stated that "The person that continues in sin is the person that doesn't trust Christ for much of anything."

When you personally have sinned in the past were you trusting Christ?



Like I said, I'm not talking about unbelievers. I'm speaking only of those who have trusted Christ and His atoning work alone.

They are not justified before God by "sin not being the norm" (whatever that religious speak means). They are justified before God by trusting in Christ's atoining work alone.



Not weird at all. Its just an honest evaluation of what you preach. You see at some point you have to make room for grace (otherwise you would be so far outside Christianity everyone would notice).

Once you make room for grace of course someone can claim "well then that creates license." Any doctrine can be twisted if one tries hard enough.

A person reading your statements could simply take a bit and say "hey I can sin and as long as I confess and repent I'll make it".

Even the tiny iota of grace you allow in your message (which ain't much I'll admit) could be twisted to license.And tell me... what do you think it means to be justified? Justified ain't saved.

ProjectPeter
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:06 PM
Yep. But we sure are quick to point out the ditches in other people's areas before our own. :)I'm pointing out the error in cheap grace... the topic of this thread.


As I said, I can offer no assurance to those who do not trust in the atoning work of Christ alone as what justifies them before God.

Whether they are sinning like crazy or performing really well, if they do not trust in His atoning work alone then they are in danger of His judgement.And if they are sinning like crazy... they ain't trusting in nothing. That would be my point. Doesn't matter much what they believe.

threebigrocks
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:26 PM
Justification of sins is simply that. There is no other way for sins to be forgiven:

Romans 4:5-8 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

God puts no limitations on the number of sins that Christ's blood can justify us from. His blood does not simply cleanse or past sins. His blood cleanses us from sin and forgives our lawless deeds.

It simply states that the one who trusts in Christ alone has sin forgiven. It does not limit that fogiveness to only past sins.

Justified sin? Now that is a curious thing in and of itself. Sin ought to make us sick, enough so that we want nothing of it any longer because it runs contrary to who we have become in Christ. We die. Christ lives. And light does not have communion with righteousness. Period.


4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

This simply says that if we have a job, if we work for a wage, that wage is not a gift or gratitude but what is due to someone who earns his wages. Man has earned it by what man did.


5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

But for the one who doesn't earn it by work, but believes on SOMEONE ELSE'S (Christ's) work who justifies the sinner (by repentance) and that one believes through faith (which is in the hope of what we will have - we ain't got it yet) he will be justified through his faith by Christ.

Faith in what we hope to have, what we must remain in, in order to remain justified. How do we know - by that faith producing good works which are of Christ and not of sin and evil.

Not only would a good man doubtfully die for an unrighteous man, it is doubtful that justification would remain for any self righteous person.



6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

How can sin be covered? Forgiven? Not taken into account? How can we be assured that it will not be counted against us? Because we repented, and have gone on to sin no more. Be holy as He is holy.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:44 PM
And again... I have shown a clear passage that the purification is for our PAST sins. I am waiting on your passage that mentions those future ones. This passage doesn't even hint of such and yet you are saying it does which would make it a very clear contradiction of what Peter said. So that passage that mentions future sins is where exactly?

No contradiction at all. Peter mentions past sins and Paul mentions all sin.

That is not a contradiction it is simply a subset. Peter's statement does not negate Paul's.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:50 PM
And tell me... what do you think it means to be justified? Justified ain't saved.

I've already let scripture speak for itself on what justificaiton is. And justification is salvation, just as much as sanctification and glorification are. These 3 events are as inseperable and distinct as the Father, Son and Spirit.

Romans 4:5-8 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

There is the biblical definition of justification.

1) Righteousness is imputed (accounted towards them)
2) Lawless deeds are forgiven (not counted against them)
3) Sins are covered (not counted against them)
4) Sin not imputed to them (counted against them)

This is justification. And while that is not all the salvation is made of it definitely accounts for the part of how sin is forgiven.

Toolman
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:52 PM
I'm pointing out the error in cheap grace... the topic of this thread.

Right, I know. And I am pointing out the error in the other ditch... the "no grace" side.


And if they are sinning like crazy... they ain't trusting in nothing. That would be my point. Doesn't matter much what they believe.

And if they are trusting in their performance they ain't trusting in Christ. That would be my point. Both ditches end up at the same place.

threebigrocks
Feb 24th 2008, 12:13 AM
And if they are trusting in their performance they ain't trusting in Christ. That would be my point. Both ditches end up at the same place.

They ought to be trusting in the strength of the Lord to keep themselves away from sin in what they do. All things through Christ to do what is please to Him - not sin.

And, both ditches can't wind up on the same side if there are two seperate sides of the road. ;)

brakelite
Feb 24th 2008, 12:19 AM
Hey you guys. Sorry, still cant figure out how to multiple quote so I'll just say my piece and let you 2 get back at it.
PP, I have not been long here at bibleforums but if there was one thing I noticed about your posts on this topic over the months and that is consistency. I fully understand that when you refer to repentance, you mean exactly that, a complete turning away from sin. A heartfelt and determined passion if you will, to not commit that particular offense again. Now of course, at first, we may fail. That is evidence to me that the old man is still alive. We are still living in the flesh, and not in the Spirit. Many who are baptized are 'buried' alive. They fail to grasp the meaning of true repentance, true death to self. And if they are buried alive then the power of the resurrection and the promise of a 'new life' in Christ fails to materialize.
So what do many do? Keep 'repenting' till Jesus comes? It seems to me that is what toolman is accusing you of preaching. There is repeated 'confession' but repeated 'repentance' is an oxymoron. And we don't overcome by focusing on 'not sinning', we overcome by focusing on Christ. It is the fruit of our relationship with Him. And it is evidence that our Christianity is real! No fruit or bad fruit, that is evidence that our Christianity is a sham. And as PP says, without fruit, we're toast.

TM,I think you are equating 'repentance' with confession. They are not nor have they ever been the same. Repentance is giving up that which formerly held you in bondage. Sin!!! Confession is just the first step to repentance. Confession can be repeated over and over again until doomsday and not one ounce of forgiveness will come your way. Trusting in the atoning work of Christ under those circumstances is nothing short of presumption.
PP is using the term repentance in the sense that sin is overcome. And I agree with him that unless we do overcome, eternal life is not ours to claim, in any way,shape or form.
And never mind claiming that I am now advocating performance based justification as if I am basing my salvation on my works. It is by grace, by the atoning work of Christ, that enables anyone to live without sin. It is only by the power of God that we can overcome, and it is only through the cross that we can make that power our own. That is not works based salvation. I stop sinning by grace. Through faith. And sanctification is accomplished through the atoning work of Christ as much as justification is. They compliment one another and neither is complete without the other. And salvation is not complete without both.
PP I know you don't need me to defend you, sorry if I'm horning in on your discussion.
TM I believe that you would agree with me and PP that God has the power to keep us from sin. That He has the power to make us holy. That by the grace of God through faith we can overcome, in this life, all sin. I sincerely hope that you believe that.
Anything short of that we are reducing the power of God to save. And that reveals a lack of faith. Right? For the just shall live by faith. Right?

I will conclude by repeating the quote on an earlier post of mine.

He who does not have the faith to believe God can keep him from sinning, has not the faith to gain him entrance into the kingdom of God.

Love you both.:hug:
Regards
Brakelite

Toolman
Feb 24th 2008, 12:36 AM
TM,I think you are equating 'repentance' with confession. They are not nor have they ever been the same. Repentance is giving up that which formerly held you in bondage. Sin!!!

I don't think there is any confusion on my part:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1477824&postcount=530



Confession is just the first step to repentance. Confession can be repeated over and over again until doomsday and not one ounce of forgiveness will come your way.

I compare that with scripture and find it coming up short:

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


Trusting in the atoning work of Christ under those circumstances is nothing short of presumption.

I disagree. Sanctification is a process and that process is different for different people.

Some may overcome drugs and alcohol abuse and yet struggle with judgemental attitudes or pride for many decades.



PP is using the term repentance in the sense that sin is overcome. And I agree with him that unless we do overcome, eternal life is not ours to claim, in any way,shape or form.

I understand, yet you and PP continue to sin but believe that you will be saved.

I have no problem with presenting a balanced Gospel but it is the imbalance I see here that must be addressed.


And never mind claiming that I am now advocating performance based justification as if I am basing my salvation on my works. It is by grace, by the atoning work of Christ, that enables anyone to live without sin. It is only by the power of God that we can overcome, and it is only through the cross that we can make that power our own. That is not works based salvation. I stop sinning by grace. Through faith. And sanctification is accomplished through the atoning work of Christ as much as justification is. They compliment one another and neither is complete without the other. And salvation is not complete without both.

I don't disagree with any of that.


TM I believe that you would agree with me and PP that God has the power to keep us from sin. That He has the power to make us holy. That by the grace of God through faith we can overcome, in this life, all sin. I sincerely hope that you believe that.
Anything short of that we are reducing the power of God to save. And that reveals a lack of faith. Right? For the just shall live by faith. Right?

I will conclude by repeating the quote on an earlier post of mine.

He who does not have the faith to believe God can keep him from sinning, has not the faith to gain him entrance into the kingdom of God.

Love you both.:hug:
Regards
Brakelite

Of course. But I still would not change the scriptures to promote that justification (sins forgiven) is by any other thing that simply trusting in the atoning blood of Christ.

No matter how well my sanctification may go does not justify me before God. Only Christ's blood can do that.

Love back at ya :)

threebigrocks
Feb 24th 2008, 02:08 AM
No matter how well my sanctification may go does not justify me before God. Only Christ's blood can do that.

Sanctification: properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

Sanctification is purifying oneself, making one holy. The Holy Spirit could be considered a purifier.

With that definition, how does it not justify, as in make one just, before God if we are not sanctified?

Christ's blood gave us opportunity to be able to saved, to be able to be go directly to the Father, to give us grace in order that we MAY be saved. It is forever who believes in Christ as the only way to the Father.

Grace in no way is cheapened, made less, unless we say we believe and then spit in the eye of God by not beginning on a path of sanctification. We must lay down our sin, we must be sanctified though what we do. Without that, grace is worthless and no righteous and holy God will find heavenly justice for the one who is not holy as He is holyl

ProjectPeter
Feb 24th 2008, 02:43 PM
No contradiction at all. Peter mentions past sins and Paul mentions all sin.

That is not a contradiction it is simply a subset. Peter's statement does not negate Paul's.And again... there is nothing in that passage of Paul's that lead one to believe that their sins committed present are covered automatically... no worries. That passage simply makes it clear that man's sin can be taken care of and they are blessed for it. And again, in context of Romans, Paul is speaking of the man not relying on the works of the Law of Moses. He's not talking about the man that "believes" and yet continues in sin. And that is ultimately what you are saying when you say even sin they commit for the rest of their little lives is forgiven. If that is the case the teachers like Bob George would be correct in teaching there is absolutely no reason to repent in the first place because that would be a lack of faith in the finished work of the cross. And he isn't correct.

ProjectPeter
Feb 24th 2008, 02:45 PM
I've already let scripture speak for itself on what justificaiton is. And justification is salvation, just as much as sanctification and glorification are. These 3 events are as inseperable and distinct as the Father, Son and Spirit.

Romans 4:5-8 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

There is the biblical definition of justification.

1) Righteousness is imputed (accounted towards them)
2) Lawless deeds are forgiven (not counted against them)
3) Sins are covered (not counted against them)
4) Sin not imputed to them (counted against them)

This is justification. And while that is not all the salvation is made of it definitely accounts for the part of how sin is forgiven.And that happens when one repents and turns to God. There is nothing at all implied that this takes care of things for as long as you live and there is no more need for repentance when you do sin. If you need to repent when you sin... why do it at all if it isn't even counted?

ProjectPeter
Feb 24th 2008, 02:51 PM
Hey you guys. Sorry, still cant figure out how to multiple quote so I'll just say my piece and let you 2 get back at it.
PP, I have not been long here at bibleforums but if there was one thing I noticed about your posts on this topic over the months and that is consistency. I fully understand that when you refer to repentance, you mean exactly that, a complete turning away from sin. A heartfelt and determined passion if you will, to not commit that particular offense again. Now of course, at first, we may fail. That is evidence to me that the old man is still alive. We are still living in the flesh, and not in the Spirit. Many who are baptized are 'buried' alive. They fail to grasp the meaning of true repentance, true death to self. And if they are buried alive then the power of the resurrection and the promise of a 'new life' in Christ fails to materialize.
So what do many do? Keep 'repenting' till Jesus comes? It seems to me that is what toolman is accusing you of preaching. There is repeated 'confession' but repeated 'repentance' is an oxymoron. And we don't overcome by focusing on 'not sinning', we overcome by focusing on Christ. It is the fruit of our relationship with Him. And it is evidence that our Christianity is real! No fruit or bad fruit, that is evidence that our Christianity is a sham. And as PP says, without fruit, we're toast.

TM,I think you are equating 'repentance' with confession. They are not nor have they ever been the same. Repentance is giving up that which formerly held you in bondage. Sin!!! Confession is just the first step to repentance. Confession can be repeated over and over again until doomsday and not one ounce of forgiveness will come your way. Trusting in the atoning work of Christ under those circumstances is nothing short of presumption.
PP is using the term repentance in the sense that sin is overcome. And I agree with him that unless we do overcome, eternal life is not ours to claim, in any way,shape or form.
And never mind claiming that I am now advocating performance based justification as if I am basing my salvation on my works. It is by grace, by the atoning work of Christ, that enables anyone to live without sin. It is only by the power of God that we can overcome, and it is only through the cross that we can make that power our own. That is not works based salvation. I stop sinning by grace. Through faith. And sanctification is accomplished through the atoning work of Christ as much as justification is. They compliment one another and neither is complete without the other. And salvation is not complete without both.
PP I know you don't need me to defend you, sorry if I'm horning in on your discussion.
TM I believe that you would agree with me and PP that God has the power to keep us from sin. That He has the power to make us holy. That by the grace of God through faith we can overcome, in this life, all sin. I sincerely hope that you believe that.
Anything short of that we are reducing the power of God to save. And that reveals a lack of faith. Right? For the just shall live by faith. Right?

I will conclude by repeating the quote on an earlier post of mine.

He who does not have the faith to believe God can keep him from sinning, has not the faith to gain him entrance into the kingdom of God.

Love you both.:hug:
Regards
Brakelite
"repeated repentance". It falls in line with folks that do it thinking that repentance is their get out of hell free card. The one that does that is the one that is totally trampling under foot the grace of God and I would fear for their eternal fate. While God has a lot more patience and mercy than any of us... He won't be mocked and the person that does that mocks the work of Christ on the cross. That would be another consistent view of mine around here and folks that have been here for years know that pretty well by now... hence the reason those that disagree do so with as much passion as I have on the matter. ;)

threebigrocks
Feb 24th 2008, 04:12 PM
"repeated repentance". It falls in line with folks that do it thinking that repentance is their get out of hell free card. The one that does that is the one that is totally trampling under foot the grace of God and I would fear for their eternal fate. While God has a lot more patience and mercy than any of us... He won't be mocked and the person that does that mocks the work of Christ on the cross. That would be another consistent view of mine around here and folks that have been here for years know that pretty well by now... hence the reason those that disagree do so with as much passion as I have on the matter. ;)

Amen.

And grace is available because a great price has been paid. It is neither cheap nor free. "Come, follow me" cannot be left by the wayside. We accept and follow Him, letting ourselves die to sin, or we don't. "Ooops" I'm sorry and "Oops" I'm sorry and "Ooops I'm sorry" will only be tolerated for a time. We need to get away from the Ooops. It is indeed this sort of behavior that makes the rest of the heathen laugh at our faith because we are not different but keep resembing the world.

And that would be a bit of that there passion on my part. ;)

Mograce2U
Feb 24th 2008, 05:39 PM
And again... there is nothing in that passage of Paul's that lead one to believe that their sins committed present are covered automatically... no worries. That passage simply makes it clear that man's sin can be taken care of and they are blessed for it. And again, in context of Romans, Paul is speaking of the man not relying on the works of the Law of Moses. He's not talking about the man that "believes" and yet continues in sin. And that is ultimately what you are saying when you say even sin they commit for the rest of their little lives is forgiven. If that is the case the teachers like Bob George would be correct in teaching there is absolutely no reason to repent in the first place because that would be a lack of faith in the finished work of the cross. And he isn't correct.Now there's a guy who has built his entire ministry on a misapplication of 1 John 1:9 by saying it is not for believers. He says all we need do is thank the Lord for our forgiveness already wrought at the cross. And while he is not wrong in saying we ought to do this, that in and of itself is not repentance.

It seems to me our confession of sin must also be accompanied with our confession of faith in Christ, else how are we to come into agreement with truth? It is not enough to know you have lied and admit it is wrong, but also to know the remedy that is made available by faith.

I remember a Catholic friend in high school who would go to confession on Friday nite so she could be "free" to sin the rest of the weekend. And we also have the example of the harlot in Proverbs who pays her vows so she can be free to continue in her trade. Wiping her mouth of guilt after she eats so she can say she has done no wrong. This is not repentance in any way, shape or form - nor the reason for which forgiveness has come to us.

If our desire is to abide in Christ and walk in His ways, then the occasional slip must be the exception, not the rule. Because if we are doing this, then when temptation rears its ugly head we ought to be quick to seek the remedy - before we give into it. Our strength is increased thru faith because we have learned the way of escape is provided by the Lord.

We ought to be learning how to recognize the trap that is so cleverly laid by the enemy so as to avoid it. Not keep coming to the Lord to rescue us after we have fallen into it - again and again. No bird gets caught in the same trap once he has learned to see it for what it is.

Forgiveness and sanctification is so that we can continue on to know the Lord. When we refuse to learn how to overcome, it shows we do not yet know the way - which can only be because we are not following Him.

Bob George would have us thank the Lord for a forgiveness we have yet to embrace, when he ought to be teaching the people what it means to repent.

ProjectPeter
Feb 24th 2008, 06:14 PM
Now there's a guy who has built his entire ministry on a misapplication of 1 John 1:9 by saying it is not for believers. He says all we need do is thank the Lord for our forgiveness already wrought at the cross. And while he is not wrong in saying we ought to do this, that in and of itself is not repentance.

It seems to me our confession of sin must also be accompanied with our confession of faith in Christ, else how are we to come into agreement with truth? It is not enough to know you have lied and admit it is wrong, but also to know the remedy that is made available by faith.

I remember a Catholic friend in high school who would go to confession on Friday nite so she could be "free" to sin the rest of the weekend. And we also have the example of the harlot in Proverbs who pays her vows so she can be free to continue in her trade. Wiping her mouth of guilt after she eats so she can say she has done no wrong. This is not repentance in any way, shape or form - nor the reason for which forgiveness has come to us.

If our desire is to abide in Christ and walk in His ways, then the occasional slip must be the exception, not the rule. Because if we are doing this, then when temptation rears its ugly head we ought to be quick to seek the remedy - before we give into it. Our strength is increased thru faith because we have learned the way of escape is provided by the Lord.

We ought to be learning how to recognize the trap that is so cleverly laid by the enemy so as to avoid it. Not keep coming to the Lord to rescue us after we have fallen into it - again and again. No bird gets caught in the same trap once he has learned to see it for what it is.

Forgiveness and sanctification is so that we can continue on to know the Lord. When we refuse to learn how to overcome, it shows we do not yet know the way - which can only be because we are not following Him.

Bob George would have us thank the Lord for a forgiveness we have yet to embrace, when he ought to be teaching the people what it means to repent.
Yeah... and unfortunately the doctrine has gotten large.... much of that actually due to the Internet more so than his radio show.

John146
Feb 25th 2008, 02:20 AM
And let me add that we are not justified before God by ANY works whatsoever. Whether those be "works of the Law" or works of any other type.

We are justified before God by Christ's sacrificial death alone and nothing else.

That is what the writers of scripture preached and proclaimed.



And don't be deceived into believing that those who sin will be damned if they believe on Jesus. Those who believe in Jesus, even when they sin, have an assured hope in Him.

While God's grace leads us in our sanctification to resist sin it also comforts us in our justification that our sin is forgiven because of simple trust in Christ and His atoning work.

Scripture is clear that we are not justified by the works of the law.

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16

But it is also clear that we are justified by good works:

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:20-26

But are the good works that justify us done in our own power? No.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

brakelite
Feb 25th 2008, 10:52 AM
Hi TM
In a previous post I claimed that obedience was essential for salvation. You replied that I had fallen into a legalistic ditch.
I said elsewhere in the same post that holiness was not an option for gaining heaven, and again you said I had fallen into the legalistic ditch.
In your post above you commented upon a quoted section of mine that contained a bolded portion stating that sanctification and justification wre equally essential for salvation. Your comment was, quote: I can't disagree with any of that.

I'm confused. One minute you say "legalism" to my claim that holiness and obedience is essential. The next minute you agree to the necessity of sanctification. To be sanctified is to be made obedient and holy. To be made righteous. Now either it is essential or it isn't. Which?

I would like to add something further to clarify and perhaps summarise the whole issue.
Justification is our forgiveness. It is our being accounted righteous before God. It is our licence if you will to heaven.

Sanctification is our fitness to enter heaven. If after having gained our licence but then are found, shall we say "drunk in charge".......

Re 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD’S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.


.....and are found therefore unfit to drive, will you not have to forfeit your licence?

Regards
Brakelite

Toolman
Feb 25th 2008, 04:38 PM
Hi TM
In a previous post I claimed that obedience was essential for salvation. You replied that I had fallen into a legalistic ditch.
I said elsewhere in the same post that holiness was not an option for gaining heaven, and again you said I had fallen into the legalistic ditch.
In your post above you commented upon a quoted section of mine that contained a bolded portion stating that sanctification and justification wre equally essential for salvation. Your comment was, quote: I can't disagree with any of that.

I'm confused. One minute you say "legalism" to my claim that holiness and obedience is essential. The next minute you agree to the necessity of sanctification. To be sanctified is to be made obedient and holy. To be made righteous. Now either it is essential or it isn't. Which?

Ok, let me try to clear up the confusion.

To be justified is to be declared holy and righteous. We don't have to wait for our sanctification to have that declaration placed upon us. It is imputed (Christ's right standing with God) to us upon our trust in Him as Saviour.

You do not become obedient and holy through sanctification. Why? Because you still disobey.

You remember that sin that you gave into last week? You were not obedient to God but disobedient. Your only hope is Christ's blood, not how well you perform in your sanctification. That is why we need a Gospel driven sanctification as Jerry Bridges points out in this excellent article:
Gospel Driven Sanctification (http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=270&var3=main)

The only righteousness you will have is Christ's righteousness. And it is that righteousness, given at justification, that puts us in right standing with God.


I would like to add something further to clarify and perhaps summarise the whole issue.
Justification is our forgiveness. It is our being accounted righteous before God. It is our licence if you will to heaven.

Sanctification is our fitness to enter heaven. If after having gained our licence but then are found, shall we say "drunk in charge".......

Re 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD’S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.


.....and are found therefore unfit to drive, will you not have to forfeit your licence?

No, because your justification is not dependent upon your sanctification. It is only dependent upon trust in the atoning work of Christ.

Now, there may be consequences for disobedience in your sanctification (in this life and the one to come) but revoking your justification is not one of them.

Concerning my agreement with your statements it is because you stated:

It is by grace, by the atoning work of Christ, that enables anyone to live without sin. It is only by the power of God that we can overcome, and it is only through the cross that we can make that power our own. That is not works based salvation. I stop sinning by grace. Through faith. And sanctification is accomplished through the atoning work of Christ as much as justification is. They compliment one another and neither is complete without the other. And salvation is not complete without both.

Of course, I believe the scripture when it states that those God has justified He will sanctify and He will glorify. So for me there is no question that those who have been justified will be sanctified because God is faithful to complete that work.
Many do not agree with that position of course.

drew
Feb 25th 2008, 06:03 PM
The only righteousness you will have is Christ's righteousness. And it is that righteousness, given at justification, that puts us in right standing with God.
I see no evidence in the Scriptures for this idea that we are imputed or ascribed the righteousness of Christ. We do indeed get a status of righteousness, but it is the righteousness of the acquitted defendent - a righteousness that is not the righteousness of some other person. This is the same kind of righteousness we get when we are found to be "in the right" in a court of law. No one asks an acquitted defendent whose righteousness they got.

I think that part of the reason that the notion that we get Christ's righteousness has such currency arises as the result of some ambiguous texts in Romans that have been translated in a manner that suggests that we get Christ's righteousness when in fact, such translations do not really make good sense of the text.

And, as I suspect you know, I think that justification is a more complex than a "one time event".

ProjectPeter
Feb 26th 2008, 12:31 PM
I don't follow.... perfection does not = obedience this side of glory.... But it does show way of growing....
I'm going to move these post into a thread of its own... that way we can explore this further without everyone else having to go down our rabbit trail. :lol: