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Revel
Feb 20th 2008, 09:54 PM
Introduction: God has given us both the prophets and apostles who are in agreement... and who are in disagreement with our religious tradition... This is also about the personal significance of biblical terminology.

Was Jesus crucified on Friday?
Was he resurrected on Sunday morning?
How would Jesus answer?
What was Christ’s prophecy about time?

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matt. 12:40)

“[T]hree days and three nights in the heart of the earth” is the divine sign spoken of by Christ.

Tradition tells us that Christ’s Crucifixion took place on Friday afternoon and that the Resurrection took place on Sunday morning.

Is it possible to fit three days and three nights into the Friday afternoon/Sunday morning story?

No.

If Christ died Friday afternoon and rose Sunday morning, then he failed to fulfill his own prophecy—which is impossible. Therefore, the tradition that Christ died Friday afternoon and rose Sunday morning is impossible. The Friday afternoon/Sunday morning “story” is fiction.

Resurrection Sunday is true: “Jesus rose early on the first day of the week” (Mark 16:9). This testimony in Mark is in agreement with the Old Testament Law that Christ had to fulfill.

The “Good Friday” Crucifixion is the hoax.

How is it that our religious ancestors were so confused that they dismissed the very words of Christ (Matt. 12:40) and elevated their imagination above the Scriptures?

How did they come up with a “Good Friday” Crucifixion?

How did they come up with “Easter”?

Where are these words, “Good Friday” and “Easter Sunday” found in the Bible?

Nowhere.

Was Jesus the “Good Friday” Lamb? Or was he the “Passover” Lamb?

The word “Easter” has no biblical basis whatsoever. According to Nelson’s Bible dictionary, “Easter was originally a pagan festival honoring Eostre, a Teutonic goddess of light and spring.”

Not only did our ancestors confuse the time frame of the Crucifixion and Resurrection, they added a pagan goddess to the story.

So what did our ancestors give us?

The wrong time frame…
A pagan goddess…
And our very own mascot: the Easter Bunny.

Why must we in the 21st century be in subjection to this religious tradition?

This is our time… our generation.

From the days of Moses, every generation has been responsible to uphold the written Word of God. As documented in the Old Testament and the Gospels, many generations failed miserably—including the “generation of vipers” who plotted to kill the Messiah. That generation justified murder.

What did some of our own religious ancestors justify?

Our Lord was crucified on the Feast of Passover—not “Good Friday.”

Our Lord, who was “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:20), was resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits—not “Easter” Sunday.

Why do we in the body of Christ have to teach the greatest story ever told on man’s terms: “Good Friday” and “Easter” Sunday?

Why can’t we in the body of Christ be allowed to teach the greatest story ever told on God’s terms: “Passover” and “Firstfruits”?

Why can’t we as Christ’s church use the same terminology as spoken by Moses, Christ, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul?

What did God reveal to Moses in the Law about time and how is Christ’s prophecy (Matt. 12:40) in agreement with Moses?

How is the witness of the Old Testament in agreement with the witness of the New Testament?

Why is it that Jesus could not let Mary hold him on Resurrection Sunday, yet he allowed Thomas to do so a week later?

Is there anyone following this who already believes and teaches the truth about Christ’s prophecy (Matt. 12:40)?

What will be our individual testimonies when we stand before the Lamb of God?

Why is it so important to Satan that we participate in the “Good Friday” hoax, promote “Easter,” and ignore the very words of Christ about the divine sign?

If it matters to Christ, shouldn’t it matter to us?

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matt. 12:40)

I invite everyone following this to join the discussion by speaking of your personal experience on the matter, or by adding Scriptures, or by addressing the questions posed.

Next: The harmony between the Old and New Testaments about God’s timing, and the personal significance of biblical terms for the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

To be continued…

God bless.

revel

9Marksfan
Feb 21st 2008, 01:04 AM
Good thread - I've recently come to the conclusion that Christ was crucified on a Thursday too.

What is your point about Christ not permitting Mary to hold Him? Is it not more a refusal of her request rather than a "couldn't"? And although Christ invites Thomas to put his hand in the wounds, Thomas doesn't need to in the end!

DanielF
Feb 21st 2008, 01:54 AM
I have a question.
Mark 15:42 states that Jesus died on the "...Preperation Day (that is the day before the Sabbath)..."
John 19:31 states that "...the next day was to be a special Sabbath..."
As the Sabbath is on a Saturday, I can understand the conclusion that Jesus was crucified on a Friday.

If you read in Lev 23:5-8, you see that you are supposed to "do no regular work and hold a sacred assembley" on the 1st and 7th days of the feast of Unleavened Bread and that there should be a . Since those days are determined by the date and not the day of the week, could that be the "speciel Sabbath" John wrote about? Why else say "special Sabbath" and not just "Sabbath"?
If so, that could have been on any day of the week that year!
I can't figure out the days though because the Last Supper was on the 1st day of the feast.

markedward
Feb 21st 2008, 07:59 AM
Some things to keep in mind:
1 - In ancient days of Israel, a day began at dusk and ended the following dusk.
2 - There were annual "high day" sabbaths, along with the weekly sabbaths.
3 - That week had a festival... and a high day sabbath, being the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Wednesday (Tuesday dusk to Wednesday dusk) (Nisan 14)
-This is the "day of preparation" because the next day was a "high day", a "special" sabbath. (Matthew 27:62, John 19:31)
-During the night, Jesus is arrested.
-Jesus crucified.
-Dies at the "ninth hour of the day" (about 3 PM in modern time-keeping).
-We can roughly assume it took a few hours to get Jesus off the cross, wrapped in cloth, and carefully taken to Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. He is buried just before dusk, the start of "day one" of being "in the earth."

Thursday (Wednesday dusk to Thursday dusk) (Nisan 15)
-The "high day" annual sabbath begins at "twilight" (dusk) of the previous day (see Leviticus quote below). The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
-Day one of Jesus' death.

Friday (Thursday dusk to Friday dusk) (Nisan 16)
-Jesus' followers by and prepare the spices.
-Day two of Jesus' death.

Saturday (Friday dusk to Saturday dusk) (Nisan 17)
-Regular weekly sabbath.
-Day three of Jesus' death.

Sunday (Saturday dusk to Sunday dusk) (Nisan 18)
-Just as the sabbath (Saturday) was ending and the first day of the week (Sunday) was beginning, Jesus rises from the dead.
-The following morning (remember, it is still the "first day of the week"), just around dawn, the women go to the tomb and find it already opened and empty.


These are the LORD's appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.Nisan 14 was the day Jesus was crucified, because it was the day before the "high day" sabbath (the first day of the Feast), Nisan 15.

In 30 AD, Nisan 14 was a "Wednesday," and, as stated above, the day Jesus was crucified. Nisan 15 (the "high day" sabbath) of 30 AD, was a "Thursday." Friday was a normal day, and Saturday, of course, was the weekly sabbath.

This works if you go by a strictly literal interpretation of the "three days and three nights" part.

In the Talmud (a Jewish source), it states that the Yom Kippur "string" (look it up if you don't know) didn't change colors for the forty years preceding the temple's destruction in 70 AD. 70 minus 40 is, of course, 30 AD.

Daniel's 70 weeks: the Messiah would come 69 weeks (483 years) after the edict to rebuild Jerusalem with walls and trench was issued. 457 BC, Artaxerxes I issues the edict to rebuild Jerusalem with walls and trench. 483 years later, 26 AD, Jesus is baptized (about the time of his 30th year of age). After about three and a half years of His ministry, Jesus is put to death: so about autumn of 26 AD plus three and a half years is spring of 30 AD.

In personal belief (though I am not dogmatic about this), it seems to be that Jesus' year of death was 30 AD, and His crucifixion was on a Wednesday. That is, if all of the above-mentioned is correctly applied to one another.

daughter
Feb 21st 2008, 09:16 AM
Good thread!!!

Yes, I think you're right. Jesus was not crucified on a Friday. Boy, that would confuse a lot of folks though, wouldn't it???

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 10:52 AM
One thing that might be overlooked thusfar is that Christ was to be "in the earth" for 3 days and nights which occurred a long time after he was first put on the cross. So, it's not about when he was crucified but when he was put into the ground/grave/tomb.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 21st 2008, 12:33 PM
Here’s an explanation from John MacArthur - taken from the prefix to the gospel of John from his study bible…

“ The answer lies in a difference among the Jews in the way they reckoned the beginning and ending of days. From Josephus, the Mishna, and other ancient Jewish sources we learn that the Jews in northern Palestine calculated days from sunrise to sunrise. That area included the region of Galilee, where Jesus and all the disciples, except Judas, had grown up. Apparently most, if not all, of the Pharisees used that system of reckoning. But Jews in the southern part, which centered in Jerusalem, calculated days from sunset to sunset. Because all the priests necessarily lived in or near Jerusalem, as did most of the Sadducees, those groups followed the southern scheme.

That variation doubtlessly caused confusion at times, but it also had some practical benefits. During Passover time, for instance, it allowed for the feast to be celebrated legitimately on two adjoining days, thereby permitting the temple scarifies to be made over a total period of four hours rather than two. That separation of days may also have had the effect of reducing both regional and religious clashes between the two groups.

On that basis the seeming contradictions in the gospel accounts are easily explained. Being Galileans, Jesus and the disciples considered Passover day to have started at sunrise on Thursday and to end at sunrise on Friday. The Jewish leaders who arrested and tried Jesus, being mostly priests and Sadducees, considered Passover day to begin at sunset on Thursday and end at sunset on Friday. By that variation, predetermined by God’s sovereign provision, Jesus could thereby legitimately celebrate the last Passover meal with His disciples and yet still be sacrificed on Passover day…”

Sold Out
Feb 21st 2008, 02:58 PM
Good thread - I've recently come to the conclusion that Christ was crucified on a Thursday too.

What is your point about Christ not permitting Mary to hold Him? Is it not more a refusal of her request rather than a "couldn't"? And although Christ invites Thomas to put his hand in the wounds, Thomas doesn't need to in the end!

I don't have my bible with me, but weren't they trying to crucify Him BEFORE passover? Would that make it a Thursday?

markedward
Feb 21st 2008, 03:14 PM
Here’s an explanation from John MacArthur - taken from the prefix to the gospel of John from his study bible…

The answer lies in a difference among the Jews in the way they reckoned the beginning and ending of days. From Josephus, the Mishna, and other ancient Jewish sources we learn that the Jews in northern Palestine calculated days from sunrise to sunrise.It's odd (to me at least) that he says "sunrise to sunrise," because nearly every other source I've encountered sad sunset to sunset instead.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 21st 2008, 03:22 PM
It's odd (to me at least) that he says "sunrise to sunrise," because nearly every other source I've encountered sad sunset to sunset instead.

MacAurthur named two named sources: "From Josephus, the Mishna, and other ancient Jewish sources...", what sources are you referencing?

Mograce2U
Feb 21st 2008, 03:54 PM
This is no doubt a reason why the Catholics adopted a pagan holiday instead of a Jewish one - because their knowledge of the Jewish feasts had waned with the passage of time. That and their desire to reject Judaism and its traditions probably caused them to avoid Passover. Which certainly doesn't explain why we still hold to their tradtitions today, since we now understand Passover and not Easter is the day in the biblical view.

Yet no one seems to want to change it because the world "accepts" it. Which as far as I am concerned doesn't mean we have to. The Lord's table is our time of memorial - and that can be done as often as desired!

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 04:03 PM
I have a question.
Mark 15:42 states that Jesus died on the "...Preperation Day (that is the day before the Sabbath)..."
John 19:31 states that "...the next day was to be a special Sabbath..."
As the Sabbath is on a Saturday, I can understand the conclusion that Jesus was crucified on a Friday.

If you read in Lev 23:5-8, you see that you are supposed to "do no regular work and hold a sacred assembley" on the 1st and 7th days of the feast of Unleavened Bread and that there should be a . Since those days are determined by the date and not the day of the week, could that be the "speciel Sabbath" John wrote about? Why else say "special Sabbath" and not just "Sabbath"?
If so, that could have been on any day of the week that year!
I can't figure out the days though because the Last Supper was on the 1st day of the feast.


One thing that might be overlooked thusfar is that Christ was to be "in the earth" for 3 days and nights which occurred a long time after he was first put on the cross. So, it's not about when he was crucified but when he was put into the ground/grave/tomb.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


I don't have my bible with me, but weren't they trying to crucify Him BEFORE passover? Would that make it a Thursday?After studying this issue through scripture and with a greater understanding of the Feasts of the LORD, I have come to the understanding that the day Yeshua hung on the cross was Wednesday until sundown; and was the High Sabbath Preparation Day. I completely agree with Naphal (surprised me too :lol:) that you should only begin counting from His burial which would have been just as Thursday began (evening of Wednesday). As I understand scripture, He spent 3 days and 3 nights in the grave and rose on the first day of the week. Saturday night, as we understand it, would have been the beginning of the first day. And when morning came, His disciples were the first to recognize that He had already risen.

Several things have confused the understanding of this time period over the centuries. The first is that the world is upside down as far as the understanding of a day. Scripturally, it is from evening to evening, not morning to morning or midnight to midnight as the world commonly understands. The second is that because people know that the Hebrew Sabbath is Saturday (Friday evening to Saturday evening), they assumed that this Preparation Day for the Sabbath was for the regular weekly Sabbath. Not understanding that because it was Passover, there was a High Sabbath that had nothing to do with the regular weekly Sabbath.

The way the Passover lamb is prepared, it is slaughtered on preparation day, so as Yeshua hung on the cross, the lambs were being slaughtered for Passover. It really is an awesome study to do, however, as someone else said, I am not dogmatic about it. What is MOST important is that He died for the sin of the world and that He was resurrected in victory over sin and death. The days are interesting to know the truth concerning but by no means is that what is most important. ;) I do celebrate Passover and First Fruits and have for about 3 years. Each year I'm finding that there are more and more who are beginning to celebrate these feasts as Yeshua did. :D

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Feb 21st 2008, 04:19 PM
Hi Denise,
I can't help but wonder if this confusion over days was not in the plan of the Lord to make an end to such traditions altogether. The world has been so changed by Christ's coming that we can no longer reconcile any prophecy by looking at days, weeks, seasons, or years. But we do have the events they foretold fixed according to the signs that were given. And the cross fulfills the type which Passover presented. If we need to set a day then Passover is it for sure. But do we need to? I think the Easter tradition is a classic example of how we engage in sin by the things men think ought to establish a high holy day in the minds of the people. Somehow, that doesn't seem to be a part of what the cross was all about! Traditions caused Israel to stumble and we have followed in their error. Yet giving up any of it, probably ain't gonna happen any time soon ;)

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 04:50 PM
Hi Denise,
I can't help but wonder if this confusion over days was not in the plan of the Lord to make an end to such traditions altogether. The world has been so changed by Christ's coming that we can no longer reconcile any prophecy by looking at days, weeks, seasons, or years. But we do have the events they foretold fixed according to the signs that were given. And the cross fulfills the type which Passover presented. If we need to set a day then Passover is it for sure. But do we need to? I think the Easter tradition is a classic example of how we engage in sin by the things men think ought to establish a high holy day in the minds of the people. Somehow, that doesn't seem to be a part of what the cross was all about! Traditions caused Israel to stumble and we have followed in their error. Yet giving up any of it, probably ain't gonna happen any time soon ;)Hey Robin!

In answer to the question of whether I believe God may have planned the confusion, I would say absolutely not! I know we would both agree that God is NOT the author of confusion. Period. So, if God wasn't the author of this confusion, you have to ask yourself who was? :hmm:

I see the Feasts of the LORD as a representation of certain things. Some that have been completed fulfilled and others that though there has been some fulfillment, I see more fulfillment coming through prophecy. So, for example, Passover is a representation of Yeshua's sacrifice; His blood which covers our sin. Because it has already happened, does not mean the representation has no more purpose. Here's a simple example. My daughter graduated from high school last year and we purchased her graduation photos. Those photos are merely a representation of that day where she ACTUALLY graduated, right? Yet, when we look at those photos it makes us remember that day. In the same way, each feast we celebrate (my family and I) brings us into remembrance of the past fulfillment as well as causing us to look forward to any future fulfillment, as well. We look at photos of family and friends all time and most times it brings a smile to our faces. Well, I am part of the family of God and when I celebrate these representations (photos, so to speak), it's like I'm looking at a spiritual family album! :pp I wouldn't put aside the feasts God told His people to celebrate forever, any more than I would toss away all my family photos. ;)

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Feb 21st 2008, 05:29 PM
Hey Robin!

In answer to the question of whether I believe God may have planned the confusion, I would say absolutely not! I know we would both agree that God is NOT the author of confusion. Period. So, if God wasn't the author of this confusion, you have to ask yourself who was? :hmm:

I see the Feasts of the LORD as a representation of certain things. Some that have been completed fulfilled and others that though there has been some fulfillment, I see more fulfillment coming through prophecy. So, for example, Passover is a representation of Yeshua's sacrifice; His blood which covers our sin. Because it has already happened, does not mean the representation has no more purpose. Here's a simple example. My daughter graduated from high school last year and we purchased her graduation photos. Those photos are merely a representation of that day where she ACTUALLY graduated, right? Yet, when we look at those photos it makes us remember that day. In the same way, each feast we celebrate (my family and I) brings us into remembrance of the past fulfillment as well as causing us to look forward to any future fulfillment, as well. We look at photos of family and friends all time and most times it brings a smile to our faces. Well, I am part of the family of God and when I celebrate these representations (photos, so to speak), it's like I'm looking at a spiritual family album! :pp I wouldn't put aside the feasts God told His people to celebrate forever, any more than I would toss away all my family photos. ;)

God Bless!I didn't mean to say that God authored this confusion over days. But that in obscuring them, it is evident that light has been removed from them. As in when a door is shut - which we know He does do. Do we know how many years have passed from Adam til today? How can we calculate them since our measurement has changed? (with difficulty!) The cross marks the transition from BC to AD. Our months are not fixed at 30 days each. We do not any of us actually use the sunset to sunset way of measuring a day - other than for the Sabbath. Which we see was already evident in the gospels as some used Roman time and others used the Jewish. It has become almost impossible to follow any regulations for Sabbaths & feasts which the OT set clearly for Israel when those things were required.

Which brings me to my next question: which of the feasts do you think are not fulfilled yet? Which is not to derail this thread - I'm just asking. I will relate my answer back to the OP.

markedward
Feb 21st 2008, 05:52 PM
MacAurthur named two named sources: "From Josephus, the Mishna, and other ancient Jewish sources...", what sources are you referencing?Well, aside from numerous online sources, and a few books, even Biblical record shows what "one day" was considered to be.

Genesis 1 - "Evening and morning" made one day, so logically the next day would begin with the following evening (sunset).

Leviticus 22 - When dealing with uncleanliness, a person was considered to be unclean until sunset, which possibly suggests that they were unclean until the new day began (being sunset).

Leviticus 23:32 - The sabbath "day" was considered to be from evening until evening.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 06:20 PM
I didn't mean to say that God authored this confusion over days. But that in obscuring them, it is evident that light has been removed from them. As in when a door is shut - which we know He does do. Do we know how many years have passed from Adam til today? How can we calculate them since our measurement has changed? (with difficulty!) The cross marks the transition from BC to AD. Our months are not fixed at 30 days each. We do not any of us actually use the sunset to sunset way of measuring a day - other than for the Sabbath. Which we see was already evident in the gospels as some used Roman time and others used the Jewish. It has become almost impossible to follow any regulations for Sabbaths & feasts which the OT set clearly for Israel when those things were required.

Which brings me to my next question: which of the feasts do you think are not fulfilled yet? Which is not to derail this thread - I'm just asking. I will relate my answer back to the OP.Okay, well I guess it's a difference in perspective since I don't see the days as being obscured. I believe it's all laid out for us to see and understand. I think you hit the nail right on the head as to where the trouble came from in post #11 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1547304#post1547304). As to the the measuring of the month and the days as such, I see the trouble coming in that the second and third century believers made the choice to disassociate with anything Jewish and follow whole-hearted behind the Roman. As to your comment that no one uses the evening to morning days, I'd have to disagree as I use them. Whenever I fast, I go evening to evening. My observance of Sabbath begins on Friday evening and goes through Saturday evening. Because I know others would be confused I will use the whole Sunday-Saturday titles but numbering the days up to the Sabbath as was biblically done (first day of the week, second day of the week, etc) would be fine by me. We, as believers, have chosen what system to follow and if we want to we can just as easily unchoose it.

As to which feasts still have some future fulfillment, I don't want to completely derail the thread so i won't get into deep detail (maybe someone can start a different thread to address that), so I'll just give one simple example. The Feast of Trumpets has had fulfillment in that John the Baptist heralded or 'trumpeted' the coming of the true Day (time) of Atonement (Yeshua), which is what the feast does each year. There are many studies that have been done that go into deep details regarding this fulfillment. However, I also see a future fulfillment of this time of trumpets when the angels in glory will blow the trumpets that will herald the 'Second Coming' of our Lord! :pp Anyway, that's what i mean when I say there is still some fulfillment to look forward to.

God Bless!

ImmenseDisciple
Feb 21st 2008, 06:35 PM
Daniel's 70 weeks: the Messiah would come 69 weeks (483 years) after the edict to rebuild Jerusalem with walls and trench was issued. 457 BC, Artaxerxes I issues the edict to rebuild Jerusalem with walls and trench. 483 years later, 26 AD, Jesus is baptized (about the time of his 30th year of age). After about three and a half years of His ministry, Jesus is put to death: so about autumn of 26 AD plus three and a half years is spring of 30 AD.
Loving the post Mark - but how is 69 weeks 483 years?! Am I being dense? :lol:

markedward
Feb 21st 2008, 06:38 PM
Loving the post Mark - but how is 69 weeks 483 years?! Am I being dense? :lol:Most people understand Daniel's 70 "weeks" to stand for sets of seven "prophetic days." In that case, a "day" would stand for one full year. Seven days (a "week") for seven years. So, 70 "weeks" would be 70 x 7 is 490 "days," or years. Minus one "week," or seven years, is 483 years.

Teke
Feb 21st 2008, 08:05 PM
Well, aside from numerous online sources, and a few books, even Biblical record shows what "one day" was considered to be.

Genesis 1 - "Evening and morning" made one day, so logically the next day would begin with the following evening (sunset).

Leviticus 22 - When dealing with uncleanliness, a person was considered to be unclean until sunset, which possibly suggests that they were unclean until the new day began (being sunset).

Leviticus 23:32 - The sabbath "day" was considered to be from evening until evening.

Good posts. :)
It didn't have to be whole days and nights. Any part of the day constitutes one day.
His resurrection occurs on the "first" day of the week, which is also the "eighth" day of the new creation. ;)

Studyin'2Show
Feb 21st 2008, 09:36 PM
Denise - a quick question: does the Day of Atonement both begin and end with a blast from trumpets?Since I don't want to completely derail the thread so I moved this question to it's own thread. ;)

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=116685

Naphal
Feb 21st 2008, 11:05 PM
That was a well worded and easy to follow post and this is essentially what I have come to believe about the events as well.



After studying this issue through scripture and with a greater understanding of the Feasts of the LORD, I have come to the understanding that the day Yeshua hung on the cross was Wednesday until sundown; and was the High Sabbath Preparation Day. I completely agree with Naphal (surprised me too :lol:) that you should only begin counting from His burial which would have been just as Thursday began (evening of Wednesday). As I understand scripture, He spent 3 days and 3 nights in the grave and rose on the first day of the week. Saturday night, as we understand it, would have been the beginning of the first day. And when morning came, His disciples were the first to recognize that He had already risen.

Several things have confused the understanding of this time period over the centuries. The first is that the world is upside down as far as the understanding of a day. Scripturally, it is from evening to evening, not morning to morning or midnight to midnight as the world commonly understands. The second is that because people know that the Hebrew Sabbath is Saturday (Friday evening to Saturday evening), they assumed that this Preparation Day for the Sabbath was for the regular weekly Sabbath. Not understanding that because it was Passover, there was a High Sabbath that had nothing to do with the regular weekly Sabbath.

The way the Passover lamb is prepared, it is slaughtered on preparation day, so as Yeshua hung on the cross, the lambs were being slaughtered for Passover. It really is an awesome study to do, however, as someone else said, I am not dogmatic about it. What is MOST important is that He died for the sin of the world and that He was resurrected in victory over sin and death. The days are interesting to know the truth concerning but by no means is that what is most important. ;) I do celebrate Passover and First Fruits and have for about 3 years. Each year I'm finding that there are more and more who are beginning to celebrate these feasts as Yeshua did. :D

God Bless!

RJ Mac
Feb 22nd 2008, 12:43 AM
I have looked but fail to see where Jesus was prophesied to spend three days and three nights in the grave. Mt.12:40 states the heart of the earth and I believe we all agree that to be Hades. In Ac.2:27-31 we see Peter talking about the prophecy of King David concerning the Christ, 'He will not be abandoned to Hades'. Mt.16:18 the gates of Hades will not overpower Him.

When Jesus died He went to Hades for 3 days and 3 nights. So when they placed His body in the tomb is irrelevant and one has to argue they didn't do it before 6 PM to claim Jesus was crucified on Thursday. Any part of the day is the day as you agree that He rose up early Sunday morning.

So if Jesus died Thursday at 3 PM and went straight to Hades, unless of course there was something else for Him to do until 6 PM. I can't think of anything. Then He was in Hades - Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, that would make it 4 days and 3 nights. 4 nights if you count Thursday night.


The whole argument comes from those who demand literal 3 days/3nights, and placing the crucifixion on Thursday doesn't accomplish that.
Now if Jesus died Friday at 3 PM when it was so dark it was night because the stars came out, then what would we have?
Friday night/day, Saturday night/day. Sunday night/day. thats 3 and 3.

I go with the fact that for the Jews, a part of the day was considered the whole day. Jesus went into Hades on Friday, 3 hours before the day ended. And Rose on Sunday morning making it 3days/3nights. It's not a Catholic hoax it is a Biblical Truth.

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia vol.I page 689 astronomical calculations show that Nissan 14 could have fallen on Friday in 30 AD. but the empirical character of the Jewish calendar renders the results of such calculations uncertain. Therefore one cannot determine for certain on what day the 14th fell.

RJ

Studyin'2Show
Feb 22nd 2008, 12:59 AM
I have looked but fail to see where Jesus was prophesied to spend three days and three nights in the grave. Mt.12:40 states the heart of the earth and I believe we all agree that to be Hades. In Ac.2:27-31 we see Peter talking about the prophecy of King David concerning the Christ, 'He will not be abandoned to Hades'. Mt.16:18 the gates of Hades will not overpower Him.

When Jesus died He went to Hades for 3 days and 3 nights. So when they placed His body in the tomb is irrelevant and one has to argue they didn't do it before 6 PM to claim Jesus was crucified on Thursday. Any part of the day is the day as you agree that He rose up early Sunday morning.

So if Jesus died Thursday at 3 PM and went straight to Hades, unless of course there was something else for Him to do until 6 PM. I can't think of anything. Then He was in Hades - Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, that would make it 4 days and 3 nights. 4 nights if you count Thursday night.


The whole argument comes from those who demand literal 3 days/3nights, and placing the crucifixion on Thursday doesn't accomplish that.
Now if Jesus died Friday at 3 PM when it was so dark it was night because the stars came out, then what would we have?
Friday night/day, Saturday night/day. Sunday night/day. thats 3 and 3.

I go with the fact that for the Jews, a part of the day was considered the whole day. Jesus went into Hades on Friday, 3 hours before the day ended. And Rose on Sunday morning making it 3days/3nights. It's not a Catholic hoax it is a Biblical Truth.

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia vol.I page 689 astronomical calculations show that Nissan 14 could have fallen on Friday in 30 AD. but the empirical character of the Jewish calendar renders the results of such calculations uncertain. Therefore one cannot determine for certain on what day the 14th fell.

RJRJ, no offense but I think you are over-counting. You counted Thursday night/day, Friday night/day, Saturday night/day but then you counted Sunday night/day which would put Jesus' resurrection on Monday. :o I think the evening to evening thing is confusing you some. When I first started studying this I had to draw out a calendar so I could actually see as I was counting because it's easy to over or under-count. Let me do it like this:

Yeshua on the cross on Wednesday afternoon. So the counting begins...

Wednesday evening to Thursday evening (1 day & night - the 5th day of the week)
Thursday evening to Friday evening (1 day & night - the 6th day of the week)
Friday evening to Saturday evening (1 day & night - the Sabbath)

Yeshua rises on the first day of the week. The first day of the week biblically is Saturday evening to Sunday evening; that entire 24 hour period. His disciples realize He has risen when they come to the tomb at sunrise. 12 hours of the day had already elapsed before they recognized. Isn't that just like us? Taking time to see what God has already done. I hope this makes, my position a bit more clear.

God Bless!

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:13 AM
I have looked but fail to see where Jesus was prophesied to spend three days and three nights in the grave. Mt.12:40 states the heart of the earth and I believe we all agree that to be Hades.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This isn't literal. It simply is a reference to a tomb or burial. While he did visit the place of the dead, he did not have to remain there for 3 days and nights worth of time. He only had to go and accomplish his purpose there which I doubt would have taken that long. I believe he would have also visited his Father for some time.

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:20 AM
The whole argument comes from those who demand literal 3 days/3nights, and placing the crucifixion on Thursday doesn't accomplish that.
Now if Jesus died Friday at 3 PM when it was so dark it was night because the stars came out, then what would we have?
Friday night/day, Saturday night/day. Sunday night/day. thats 3 and 3.

Uh, you actually started counting on a thursday. Darkness for an hour or so in the afternoon doesn't constitute the starting of a new day. The darkness at 3pm on Thursday simply was a brief darkness, not a switch to Friday.

RJ Mac
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:23 AM
Naphal - in this thread someone has already pointed out that Jesus did not see His Father until after the resurrection. Jn.20:17 Stop clinging to Me, I have not yet ascended to the Father....

No grave is in the heart of the earth but that is where Hades is. It was to Hades Jesus descended and spent 3 days and 3 nights. I guess He could have slept in the tomb, but He was dead and the dead go to Hades. The spirit does not remain in the body.

RJ

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:27 AM
Naphal - in this thread someone has already pointed out that Jesus did not see His Father until after the resurrection. Jn.20:17 Stop clinging to Me, I have not yet ascended to the Father....

I believe that is a different thing than seeing or speaking to someone but it's not important.



No grave is in the heart of the earth but that is where Hades is. It was to Hades Jesus descended and spent 3 days and 3 nights. I guess He could have slept in the tomb, but He was dead and the dead go to Hades. The spirit does not remain in the body.

RJ


Hades is not in the earth, it is in heaven acrossed a gulf. What is known as the "pit" is in the earth but that is a special prison for the fallen angels and evil spirits.

Tanya~
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:35 AM
Matt 28:1

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
NKJV

If you have access to a Greek parser, you will find that the word "Sabbath" in the above passage is plural: "... after the Sabbaths..." I think this helps to make the case for a Thursday crucifixion. The first Sabbath was the Passover Sabbath which is the high day, and the second one was the regular weekly Sabbath.

RJ Mac
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:36 AM
Studyen2Show:

You state Jesus died on Wednesday but don't start counting till Wednesday night. Your a whole day ahead of the original post which has Him dying on Thursday. That's okay, just clarifying.

Wednesday 3PM - Thursday 3PM = 24 hours
Thursday 3 PM - Friday 3PM = 24 hours
Friday 3 PM - Saturday 3 PM = 24 hours
Saturday 3PM - Saturday Midnight = 9 hours

If you go with Wednesday 6PM = 78 hours

But then it says He rose on Sunday AM 6 AM so add 6 more 84 Hours
84 hours = 3 1/2 days. Just can't swing it literally from Wednesday.

But you don't care if its longer than 3 days and 3 nights as long as it is at least 72 hours. Therefore 84 hours fits doesn't it.

Looking to hear from those who claim He died on Thursday and see their timing, if its as literal yours, they just can't allow it to go beyond the 72 hours.

RJ

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:42 AM
Studyen2Show:

You state Jesus died on Wednesday but don't start counting till Wednesday night. Your a whole day ahead of the original post which has Him dying on Thursday. That's okay, just clarifying.

Wednesday 3PM - Thursday 3PM = 24 hours
Thursday 3 PM - Friday 3PM = 24 hours
Friday 3 PM - Saturday 3 PM = 24 hours
Saturday 3PM - Saturday Midnight = 9 hours

If you go with Wednesday 6PM = 78 hours

But then it says He rose on Sunday AM 6 AM so add 6 more 84 Hours
84 hours = 3 1/2 days. Just can't swing it literally from Wednesday.

But you don't care if its longer than 3 days and 3 nights as long as it is at least 72 hours. Therefore 84 hours fits doesn't it.

Looking to hear from those who claim He died on Thursday and see their timing, if its as literal yours, they just can't allow it to go beyond the 72 hours.

RJ

Wednesday evening becomes Thursday so she didn't start on Wednesday but started when it first became Thursday. he was buried in the evening, when the day changed. He was crucified on Wednesday but buried on Thursday and stayed in the tomb 3 days and nights and arose on a Sunday.

RJ Mac
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:50 AM
Naphal, the pit is below Hades. Hades is the proper name of the god of the underworld and the underworld was called the house of Hades. The Jews believed Hades was where all souls waited judgment. It is seen as the equal to Sheol. The nether world which the souls went down into. Num.16:30-32 the ground opened and swallowed Korah and his family and belongings alive into Sheol.

RJ

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:55 AM
Naphal, the pit is below Hades. Hades is the proper name of the god of the underworld and the underworld was called the house of Hades. The Jews believed Hades was where all souls waited judgment. It is seen as the equal to Sheol. The nether world which the souls went down into. Num.16:30-32 the ground opened and swallowed Korah and his family and belongings alive into Sheol.

RJ


All souls return to God, and that's where they wait. It is not in the earth.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Only the dead body returns into the earth.


There are three Greek words translated "hell":
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1067
1067 geenna {gheh'-en-nah}

of Hebrew origin 01516 and 02011; TDNT - 1:657,113; n f

AV - hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12

1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or
"Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom,
south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the
city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and
their future destruction.

This word is the type of hell that is the final punishment, known as the lake of fire in Revelation.


Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

86
86 hades {hah'-dace}

from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc

AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11

1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell


This is not the same hell, but is where the dead are who lived bad lives. Its known as purgatory, death and the grave.

This hell is what is cast into and destroyed by the other "Hell" ie: the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5020
5020 tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}
from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades);; v
AV - cast down to hell 1; 1
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by
the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer
punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

This is the third word and is a holding place for very evil souls. It is also known as the pit in Revelation where satan is held for 1000 years.

RJ Mac
Feb 22nd 2008, 01:55 AM
Okay - its 9 PM Thursday but from your reasoning I can call it Friday even though Friday won't begin until midnight. So you agree it is not the Spirit of Jesus going to Hades that is important but it is the dead body of Jesus going into a tomb that is important. We are looking at this from two directions. I find fulfilling the prophecy of David shows what is at stake here and that is Jesus going into Hades but not being held captive by its powers. A Spiritual view instead of a literal physical view, just wanted to clarify.

RJ

RJ Mac
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:01 AM
Naphal we will disagree on this one, because Hades is where the spirits of dead men wait for the judgment day.

Gehenna is the eternal resting place of the wicked and is called hell and men will be sent there come judgment day.

Tartarus is the pit below Hades where God has put the wicked angels.

All three places are totally different.

RJ

Yes all men will stand before God when they die and will be assigned a place to await the judgment, either Hades or Heaven.
I do believe the righteous go to heaven when they die. Cheers!

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:01 AM
Okay - its 9 PM Thursday but from your reasoning I can call it Friday even though Friday won't begin until midnight.

In America the day doesn't start until midnight but in biblical times it was earlier.



So you agree it is not the Spirit of Jesus going to Hades that is important but it is the dead body of Jesus going into a tomb that is important. We are looking at this from two directions. I find fulfilling the prophecy of David shows what is at stake here and that is Jesus going into Hades but not being held captive by its powers. A Spiritual view instead of a literal physical view, just wanted to clarify.

No I don't agree. Christ's Spirit went to Hades on purpose. He wasn't condemned to it nor did a live of sin force him there. He went only as a preacher of his own Gospel to save some of the lost souls.

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:08 AM
Naphal we will disagree on this one, because Hades is where the spirits of dead men wait for the judgment day.

We don't disagree because that is what I and the dictionary stated.




Gehenna is the eternal resting place of the wicked and is called hell and men will be sent there come judgment day.

I also said that but I disagree it's a "resting place".




Tartarus is the pit below Hades where God has put the wicked angels.

And again, that's also what I and the dictionary just said.





All three places are totally different.

RJ



Exactly the point of my last post.




Yes all men will stand before God when they die and will be assigned a place to await the judgment, either Hades or Heaven.

Not exactly. Hades is located in heaven. Heaven has a gulf fixed in it and one side is Hades and the other side is called various things but that's what heaven is.


I do believe the righteous go to heaven when they die. Cheers!

Not just the righteous, all go to heaven but that doesn't mean all get eternal life. "go to heaven" is misused by most Christians.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:22 AM
Much of the confusion comes from our Roman mindset regarding the day. Biblically the day begins at sundown. So yes, biblically it is now Friday (I'm in the Eastern timezone). Friday began when the sun went down. Even today's Jews still use this biblical standard for understanding the concept of the day which is why Shabbat still begins when the sun goes down on what the Roman mindset has led us to call Friday. They still call it Shabbat. :D Like Yeshua and the Apostles did.

God Bless!

markedward
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:29 AM
It seems only one person noticed the post I had made...

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1546804&postcount=4

Would someone like to respond to this assessment?

Studyin'2Show
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:42 AM
It seems only one person noticed the post I had made...

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1546804&postcount=4

Would someone like to respond to this assessment?I think you hit the nail square on the head, dude! :D You know, sometimes long post just get glanced over but after looking at it more thoroughly, it is excellent! You put all the info out there including the possible year and show what day Nissan 14 was in that year. Yes, really very good. Now, do I get a cookie? :lol:

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:02 AM
-Dies at the "ninth hour of the day" (about 3 PM in modern time-keeping).
-We can roughly assume it took a few hours to get Jesus off the cross, wrapped in cloth, and carefully taken to Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. He is buried just before dusk, the start of "day one" of being "in the earth."


6pm wouldn't qualify for thursday so however long it took, it was when it was officially Thursday so he could rise when Sabbath was ended.

markedward
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:18 AM
6pm wouldn't qualify for thursday so however long it took, it was when it was officially Thursday so he could rise when Sabbath was ended.Well, to be fair, I never said anything about "6 PM." All I said was "roughly ... a few hours [later]." However long it took, I agree, but the point I was making was sunset was the start of the next day (this is especially Biblically supported in regards to the sabbath: the sabbath is explicitely stated to begin at sunset and end at sunset).

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:27 AM
Well, to be fair, I never said anything about "6 PM." All I said was "roughly ... a few hours [later]."

3pm plus 3 hours is 6pm, "roughly".


Change it to 6 hours. That is not unreasonable in the least for the entire process to be finished.



However long it took, I agree, but the point I was making was sunset was the start of the next day (this is especially Biblically supported in regards to the sabbath: the sabbath is explicitely stated to begin at sunset and end at sunset).

I agreed with the rest. I commented on what I didn't agree with.

markedward
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:40 AM
3pm plus 3 hours is 6pm, "roughly".

Change it to 6 hours. That is not unreasonable in the least for the entire process to be finished.Okay? I never specified numbers. I never said "6 PM" and I never said to add "3 hours." "Roughly a few hours" to me could be 3 to 6 hours, so I don't see what the problem was. And, either way, it depends on when "sunset" was. It's hard to be dogmatic on the exact time of dusk around April circa 30 AD.


I agreed with the rest. I commented on what I didn't agree with.That's far to do, though you disagreed with a couple of numbers you came up with on your own.

Mograce2U
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:52 AM
It seems only one person noticed the post I had made...

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1546804&postcount=4

Would someone like to respond to this assessment?I read everything you write that I come across!

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:55 AM
Okay? I never specified numbers. I never said "6 PM" and I never said to add "3 hours." "Roughly a few hours" to me could be 3 to 6 hours, so I don't see what the problem was. And, either way, it depends on when "sunset" was. It's hard to be dogmatic on the exact time of dusk around April circa 30 AD.

That's far to do, though you disagreed with a couple of numbers you came up with on your own.

Fine, don't change it. Keep it exactly as you posted it.




-Dies at the "ninth hour of the day" (about 3 PM in modern time-keeping).
-We can roughly assume it took a few hours to get Jesus off the cross, wrapped in cloth, and carefully taken to Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. He is buried just before dusk, the start of "day one" of being "in the earth."

markedward
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:05 AM
Fine, don't change it. Keep it exactly as you posted it.What is the problem? The gospel accounts state He died around the "ninth hour" which I said was about 3 PM using our modern-time keeping. If dawn is around 6 AM, then nine hours later is around 3 PM. And I said "about." And, again, I said "roughly a few hours" later, I did not say "three hours later" and I did not say "at 6 PM." I said about 3 PM as the time of death and roughly a few hours later, and I explicitly said sunset. I have no idea what your problem with the statement is if I never specified any exact times other than one that is specified in the Bible. You added the "6 PM" statement, you added the "add three hours" statement, I did not. Each problem you brought up was something I didn't even say to begin with. I'm sorry if you see a problem there, but you are putting words into my statement that weren't originally there.

Naphal
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:07 AM
I don't think saying "a few hours" is accurate enough, that's all.

markedward
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:11 AM
I don't think saying "a few hours" is accurate enough, that's all.There we go! This is much more helpful for me to know where you saw a problem in what was actually written, rather than adding words that weren't there to begin with.

In this case, all I can say is the word "few" is the problem, but it's subjective; it simply depends on who's interpreting "few." As I said before, when I see the word "few" I think somewhere around 3-6 (a few apples, a few minutes, a few pieces of paper, a few years, etc.). I'm sorry if I used a confusing word; I could probably have used a better one, but it is, as I said, a subjective intepretation.

RJ Mac
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:35 PM
Mark I read your article but did you read mine?

According to your claims:
Jesus died went to Hades 3 PM on Wednesday
Spent all day Thursday in Hades. 6 PM - 6 PM
Spent all day Friday in Hades 6 PM - 6PM
Spent all day Saturday in Hades 6PM - 6 PM
Spent all Sunday night in Hades 6 PM - 6? AM

This is a total of 87 hours, now correct me if I am wrong.
Which makes Jesus in Hades for 4 nights and 3 days, but I would argue to count Wednesday since He was in Hades 3 hours before that day ended.
Therefore 4 days and 4 nights.

If one is to take it literally then it should be exactly 72 hours give or take a bit. But to go well beyond is the same as falling short, so if you can't go with the short, the symbolic method, then how about getting closer than 15 hours.

My concern here is people call the crucifixion of Jesus on Friday a hoax, if one wants to believe for a Thursday crucifixion go for it, but the weight of Biblical scholarship leans towards Friday crucifixion based on textual studies not a hoax.

RJ

markedward
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:32 PM
Mark I read your article but did you read mine?

According to your claims:
Jesus died went to Hades 3 PM on Wednesday
Spent all day Thursday in Hades. 6 PM - 6 PM
Spent all day Friday in Hades 6 PM - 6PM
Spent all day Saturday in Hades 6PM - 6 PM
Spent all Sunday night in Hades 6 PM - 6? AM

This is a total of 87 hours, now correct me if I am wrong.
Which makes Jesus in Hades for 4 nights and 3 days, but I would argue to count Wednesday since He was in Hades 3 hours before that day ended.
Therefore 4 days and 4 nights.I'm with Naphal on this, in regards to the "in the heart of the earth" statement referring to being in the tomb. When Jonah was in the great fish, he wasn't in hades, he was, literally, in the fish. In that sense, Jesus was in the earth as literally as He said. Also, the part of your quote that I highlighted in blue is incorrect. I explicitly said Jesus would have arisen around dusk (sunset) of Saturday. I said nothing about Him being dead through Sunday night. And aside from that, I never set any exact time-stamps other than Him being dead around the "ninth hour."

Sometimes Jesus said He was be raised "in three days," and sometimes He said "after three days." Which is correct? "In three days" suggest He would be raised to life before three days were up. "After three days" suggest He would be raised to life, of course, after three days. "Three days and three nights" is pretty explicit, so if He was crucified Friday, even if a person counted only part of the day of Friday as a whole-day and only part of Sunday as a whole-day, that would still only be two nights, not three. So either the "day" counts as a whole day-time and the "night" counts as a whole night-time, or we just turn the statement into symbolic of being simply "three days."

The "weight of Biblical scholarship" is grounded in centuries of tradition from the Catholic Church, so it's biased towards it from the start, just as much as the "Lucifer" myth is.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 22nd 2008, 05:56 PM
According to your claims:
Jesus died went to Hades 3 PM on Wednesday
Spent all day Thursday in Hades. 6 PM - 6 PM
Spent all day Friday in Hades 6 PM - 6PM
Spent all day Saturday in Hades 6PM - 6 PM
Spent all Sunday night in Hades 6 PM - 6? AM
Mark didn't say that Yeshua spent the period from what we call Saturday night to Sunday morning still in the grave. That must be your assumption. What Mark and others are asserting is that He rose on the first day of the week, which would be what most would call Saturday night. It was not until the dawn (Sunday morning) that it was discovered that He had risen. The FULL three days and three nights are thus accounted for....with no extra time AT ALL. ;)

RJ Mac
Feb 22nd 2008, 08:33 PM
Okay - so for this to work Jesus rose just after 6 PM on the Saturday night which would be the first day of the week and it would be called Sunday night.
Jesus was in the grave all Thursday, Friday,and Saturday then He arose Sunday night. Sunday would be the fourth day, He arose on the fourth day at night.
That is what your saying correct?

So if you'll explain these verses in light of what I understand you saying:
Mt.17:23 ... they will kill Him and He will be raised ON the third day.
Lk.9:22 ......The Son of Man MUST ....be killed and be raised ON the third day.
1Cor.15:4; . and He was raised ON the third day according to scriptures.
Ac.10:40 ... God raised Him up ON the third day and granted He become visible.

As for
Mk.8:31 ...and AFTER three days rise again.
What we have is a contradiction do we not? Is it ON or is it AFTER? It can't be both!

2Chr.10:5 .... Come back to me AFTER three days.
2Chr.10:12 ... all the people came to Jeroboam ON the third day as the king had directed saying, "Come back to me the third day.
He said return AFTER three days, they understood that to mean return on the third day.

Mt.27:63-64..."Sir we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'AFTER three days I am to rise again.'
Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure UNTIL the third day...."

The phrase "after three days" must have been equivalent to the "third day"
else surely the Pharisees would have asked for a guard of soldiers to remain UNTIL the fourth day.

The Jerusalem Talmud quotes rabbi Eleazer ben Azariah, who lived around 100 AD as saying,
"A day and a night are an Onah and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it."
A portion of a 24 hour period could be considered the same as a whole of it.
Thus Jesus would have been correct in teaching that His burial would last
"three days and three nights," even though it was not three complete 24 hour days.

Friday...........3pm - 6pm one day 'a portion the same as the whole'
Saturday.......6pm - 6pm one day
Sunday.........6pm - 6am one day 3 days.

Jesus rose on the third day.

Hey, I hear what your saying, I only wish to show what I believe has great merit and to call it a hoax?
Which one is the hoax, if both can't be right?

RJ

Studyin'2Show
Feb 22nd 2008, 09:10 PM
Okay - so for this to work Jesus rose just after 6 PM on the Saturday night which would be the first day of the week and it would be called Sunday night.
Jesus was in the grave all Thursday, Friday,and Saturday then He arose Sunday night. Sunday would be the fourth day, He arose on the fourth day at night.
That is what your saying correct? Dude, you're confusing everything with the whole Sunday night thing. Who said anything about Sunday night? :o Forget the Roman stuff. Really. Draw out a little calendar representing a week. Label it first day - second day and so on through Shabbat (seventh day). Then for where the lines are, starting with the one before first day put - Saturday 6pm. On the line between first day and second day put - Sunday 6pm. Following this through, the line after the box marked Shabbat (seventh day) you will have come full circle to again write Saturday 6pm. This is sooooo much simpler than it sounds all typed out but believe me, this is the simplest way to GET this.

Once it's all done, go to Wednesday 6pm and you will see that it is the beginning of the fifth day of the week. I believe Yeshua was there on the fifth, sixth, and seventh days, and rose on the first day (or eighth day - that's a REALLY interesting study :D). 3 days, 3 nights, rising on the first day of the week. It's much simpler than it seems but we have to recognize that it is OUR perception that is flipped upside down. Once we flip it right side up, it's easy! ;)

God Bless!

Revel
Feb 23rd 2008, 02:47 AM
Excellent exchange!!

This… of course… is not about paying homage to a “day”… of the week.

We as Christ’s church cannot underestimate the significance of speaking about the Crucifixion and Resurrection the same way God does: Passover and Firstfruits. The personal significance is this: Passover speaks of our present salvation and Firstfruits speaks of our future salvation… and each holy day reveals God’s exact timing as marked on the Hebrew calendar.

Why is it that there are differing interpretations of New Testament prophecy?

Christ can answer that...

Regarding divine prophecy, Christ said: “Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44).

If the Law, the prophets, and the Psalms foreshadowed what would come to pass, then where do we look find the answers to New Testament controversies?

We look to the Old Testament. The Old Testament is our standard not only for behavior but prophecy. The New Testament expounds upon what was already given to us by the prophets. Herein, the apostles become witnesses who are in agreement with the prophets. In essence, the Old Testament is the foundation on which New Testament prophecy is built. Christ said:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matt. 5:17, 18)

Just what exactly did Moses reveal in the Law that applies to the first coming of Christ?

God “wrote” his plan to rescue souls from Satan through Christ in the Law—in the holy days; in the writings of Moses, God “embedded” the prophecies that Christ would ultimately fulfill, for within the seven holy days, God painted a “hidden” picture: the chronology, content, and significance of major events that pertain to the first coming of Christ, and the chronology, content, and significance of major events that pertain to the second coming of Christ.

It wasn’t until the days of the New Testament, and the revelation given by Heaven, that this divine story was revealed: the holy days are prophetic in nature. Just as Christ had to fulfill the Ten Commandments in his behavior, he had to fulfill—and has to fulfill—the prophecies written about him in the seven holy days.

This connection between the holy days of the Old Testament and future events of the New Testament was made clear by the apostle Paul: “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival [holy day], a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come” (Col. 2:16, 17).

What is in the Old Testament Law that Jesus had to fulfill?

Two thousand years ago, the Son of God fulfilled the Mosaic Law: Jesus, as God’s Passover Lamb, was crucified on the Feast of Passover (on the fourteenth day of the Hebrew month called Nisan); he was in the burial tomb on the Feast of Unleavened Bread (on the fifteenth day of Nisan), and Jesus, who was the firstfruits from the dead, was resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits (on the eighteenth day of Nisan). The fifteenth day to the eighteenth day is three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Moses and Christ are in agreement about time and no one in the Bible disagrees with them.

Well stated, Markedward, about the Holy Days!

Next: The Holy Days...

God bless.

revel

Revel
Feb 25th 2008, 03:02 PM
We as Christ’s church cannot underestimate the significance of speaking about the Crucifixion and Resurrection the same way God does: Passover and Firstfruits.

To begin…

What is the personal significance of Passover?

Why is it that Satan wants us to avoid speaking of “Passover” and continue with the religious terminology of “Good Friday”?

Why is it that Satan wants us to avoid speaking of the holy days altogether?

Satan wants us blind to the following reality: The first four holy days of Moses mark key events that pertain to God delivering the children of Israel from Egypt through Moses—which includes God dwelling with his people on Mount Sinai. The parallel to our time is the spiritual reality of God delivering souls from Satan through Christ—which includes God dwelling with his people through the Holy Spirit.

This parallel between God’s deliverance of the Israelites, and God’s deliverance of souls, can be seen by looking back at the epic events that took place at the time of Moses. In the known history of this world, few events compare to those that rocked the Egyptian Empire and eventually led to God meeting with Moses and giving him the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai.

This historical saga begins with the children of Israel being slaves to Pharaoh of Egypt, who, despite nine plagues brought upon him and his people, refused to let the Israelites leave. For the tenth and final plague, the angel of death would “strike down every firstborn—both men and animals” (Exod. 12:12). The Israelites, however, would be spared if they sprinkled the blood of the sacrificial Passover lamb on the doorposts of their homes. The angel would see the blood and pass over the house.

The parallel to our time is as follows: just as the blood of the Passover lamb would save Israelites from death, so would the blood of God’s Lamb (Christ) ultimately save souls from death. The Feast of Passover marks this historical event for the Israelites. Passover is also referred to as the “Feast of Our Freedom,” for it marked the beginning of the end to slavery; it was the first holy day God gave to Moses.

THE FEAST OF PASSOVER

God spoke to Moses and provided the details associated with this holy day: a lamb was to be killed on the fourteenth day of the Hebrew month called Nisan (equivalent to either March or April on the modern-day calendar). When God gave Moses this revelation, he was setting the stage for what would ultimately occur with his Son, the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29). When God marked the day the lamb was to be slain at the Jewish feast, God simultaneously marked the future day in time his own Son would be crucified.

Here is the Law that God gave Moses:

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, “This month [Nisan] is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. . . . Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight [Hebrew: 3 p.m.1].” (Exod. 12:1–3, 6)

This literal feast was also a prophecy that was fulfilled in the first century A.D. by the Lamb of God. While the Jewish religious leaders carried out their ceremony of Passover and sacrificed a lamb on the fourteenth day of Nisan, the Lamb of God was simultaneously sacrificed on the Cross.

According to the Law given to Moses, the sacrificial lamb was to be slain at “twilight,” which is a reference to the exact midpoint between our 12 p.m. and 6 p.m.—which is 3 p.m. This is the precise moment that Christ “gave up his spirit” (Matt. 27:50). Herein, Christ fulfilled the Law given to Moses and fulfilled the prophecy contained within it.

If Christ didn’t fulfill the Law, then he wasn’t the Messiah. There is no doubt that Christ would fulfill the Law of Moses because he was the Messiah. As God’s own Lamb, Jesus had to die at the precise moment in time as originally given by God in the Law. In essence, God had to follow his own Law. The apostle Paul confirmed that Christ fulfilled the Law as God’s Lamb: “For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed”(1 Cor. 5:7).

Just as God marked the timing of Jesus’ Crucifixion by way of a Jewish feast, he marked the timing of the burial, Resurrection, and the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost by way of Jewish feasts.

Next: the Feast of Unleavened Bread

God bless.

revel

Codger
Feb 25th 2008, 04:10 PM
Some things to keep in mind:
1 - In ancient days of Israel, a day began at dusk and ended the following dusk.
2 - There were annual "high day" sabbaths, along with the weekly sabbaths.
3 - That week had a festival... and a high day sabbath, being the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Wednesday (Tuesday dusk to Wednesday dusk) (Nisan 14)
-This is the "day of preparation" because the next day was a "high day", a "special" sabbath. (Matthew 27:62, John 19:31)
-During the night, Jesus is arrested.
-Jesus crucified.
-Dies at the "ninth hour of the day" (about 3 PM in modern time-keeping).
-We can roughly assume it took a few hours to get Jesus off the cross, wrapped in cloth, and carefully taken to Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. He is buried just before dusk, the start of "day one" of being "in the earth."

Thursday (Wednesday dusk to Thursday dusk) (Nisan 15)
-The "high day" annual sabbath begins at "twilight" (dusk) of the previous day (see Leviticus quote below). The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
-Day one of Jesus' death.

Friday (Thursday dusk to Friday dusk) (Nisan 16)
-Jesus' followers by and prepare the spices.
-Day two of Jesus' death.

Saturday (Friday dusk to Saturday dusk) (Nisan 17)
-Regular weekly sabbath.
-Day three of Jesus' death.

Sunday (Saturday dusk to Sunday dusk) (Nisan 18)
-Just as the sabbath (Saturday) was ending and the first day of the week (Sunday) was beginning, Jesus rises from the dead.
-The following morning (remember, it is still the "first day of the week"), just around dawn, the women go to the tomb and find it already opened and empty.

Nisan 14 was the day Jesus was crucified, because it was the day before the "high day" sabbath (the first day of the Feast), Nisan 15.

In 30 AD, Nisan 14 was a "Wednesday," and, as stated above, the day Jesus was crucified. Nisan 15 (the "high day" sabbath) of 30 AD, was a "Thursday." Friday was a normal day, and Saturday, of course, was the weekly sabbath.

This works if you go by a strictly literal interpretation of the "three days and three nights" part.

In the Talmud (a Jewish source), it states that the Yom Kippur "string" (look it up if you don't know) didn't change colors for the forty years preceding the temple's destruction in 70 AD. 70 minus 40 is, of course, 30 AD.

Daniel's 70 weeks: the Messiah would come 69 weeks (483 years) after the edict to rebuild Jerusalem with walls and trench was issued. 457 BC, Artaxerxes I issues the edict to rebuild Jerusalem with walls and trench. 483 years later, 26 AD, Jesus is baptized (about the time of his 30th year of age). After about three and a half years of His ministry, Jesus is put to death: so about autumn of 26 AD plus three and a half years is spring of 30 AD.

In personal belief (though I am not dogmatic about this), it seems to be that Jesus' year of death was 30 AD, and His crucifixion was on a Wednesday. That is, if all of the above-mentioned is correctly applied to one another.

I think you are missing something. God seems to have a perfect plan which is overlayed by a template of types and shadows. Jesus had to have been Crucified in April of 29AD. The reason is that he died on the "Acceptable year of the Lord." Which was the 29th Jubilee.

He quoted Isaiah one day...

Luke 4:17-21 (NASB)
And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened
the book, and found the place where it was written,

[18] "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are downtrodden,
[19] To proclaim the favorable YEAR OF THE Lord."

[20] And He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon Him. [21] And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

This is a very clear reference to the year of Jubilee [favorable year] when all slaves were set free and all land was returned to its original owners. A beautiful picture of the redemption. He was crucified on the 29th Jubilee in the year of 29AD.

Of course he stopped short of reading...

Isaiah 61:2 (KJV)
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Of course the day of vengence was the cross when God poured out his wrath on Jesus for the whole world.

So based on this the chronology would be thus...

[The day began at sundown]
Upper room (Passover) Thurs April 14th 29AD
Gethsemane (arrest) late evening
Caiaphas midnight
Preparation day dusk 14th to dusk 15th
Crucifixion Friday April 15th 29AD.

Jesus' ministry actually began before his 30th birthday. He was baptized in September of 25AD. It was almost exactly 4,000 years from the creation of Adam to the baptism of Jesus. Jesus turned 30 on April 1st 26AD. Thus his ministry was 3 1/2 years total.

Just a Door Keeper
Feb 25th 2008, 04:31 PM
If you look in your Bible at Luke 24:21 you will see where it tells us the exact day of the crucifixion. As the Lord Jesus talked with the two on the road to Emmaus, they mentioned to Him in v21 that "...today is the third day since these things were done."

Verse 1 and v13 tell us that it was the 1st day of the week, Sunday. Now if Sunday was the 3rd day SINCE the crucifixion that would make the crucifixion on Thursday. That gives 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb just as the Lord Jesus said, anything else makes Jesus a liar, as you can't get 3 days and 3 nights any other way. Jesus Christ is the Lord God Himself, He can't lie, so we have to have 3 days and 3 nights, nothing more, nothing less. The Lord was crucified on Thursday, that's what the Scriptures say.

Codger
Feb 25th 2008, 04:57 PM
If you look in your Bible at Luke 24:21 you will see where it tells us the exact day of the crucifixion. As the Lord Jesus talked with the two on the road to Emmaus, they mentioned to Him in v21 that "...today is the third day since these things were done."

Verse 1 and v13 tell us that it was the 1st day of the week, Sunday. Now if Sunday was the 3rd day SINCE the crucifixion that would make the crucifixion on Thursday. That gives 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb just as the Lord Jesus said, anything else makes Jesus a liar, as you can't get 3 days and 3 nights any other way. Jesus Christ is the Lord God Himself, He can't lie, so we have to have 3 days and 3 nights, nothing more, nothing less. The Lord was crucified on Thursday, that's what the Scriptures say.

Well, then when was Passover? It was on Thursday and capital crimes were not allowed on a Holy Day. They took Jesus off the cross before sundown Friday as not to violate the Sabbath [Saturday].

Studyin'2Show
Feb 25th 2008, 05:18 PM
After doing a bit of research on the dates of Passovers during the third and fourth decades AD, one thing is clear and that's that no one can even agree on WHEN those Passovers were. :rolleyes: Just for the year 30 AD I have seen four different dates and days for Passover. One thing that I absolutely know for certain is that Yeshua's crucifixion was in no way tied to the vernal equinox. It was most certainly based on the occurrence of Passover. Yet easter is clearly based on the vernal equinox, not even considering the Passover. I don't get that since Yeshua is our Passover Lamb and not our easter Lamb. ;) I will celebrate His resurrection every day of my life, yet I know that Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits are the feasts that He fulfilled during the true passion week nearly 2000 years ago.

Anyway, maybe we could focus on what we agree on. He was crucified and resurrected! :pp And no matter what day and no matter what year, THAT is what is truly to be celebrated!

God Bless!

mcgyver
Feb 26th 2008, 03:35 PM
Happens every Easter!!! :rolleyes:

Somebody's got to come out with the "He couldn't have been crucified on Friday..."

Folks...can we get rid of western mindset and the "24 hour/48 hour/72 hours" thing for a moment...and see how the Jews themselves counted time?

As has been pointed out, the Jews considered any part of the day to count as the whole day, and their days started at EENT (end of evening nautical twilight) or sundown (depending on which Rabbinical school interpreted it) and not midnight.

Certainly this is not foreign to us...if you have a child born at 11:59 PM on Dec 31st of...say 2007, then you can take that child on your 2007 taxes...He/She is considered to have been alive the whole year by the IRS, even though he/she made an appearance 1 minute prior to the roll over into the new year...

So then, the key part of prophecy identifying the Christ is that He would be raised the THIRD DAY.

Friday is the only day that will work for the day of crucifixion for the following reason (s):

He was taken down prior to the start of the new day (sundown) and hastily buried in a tomb (remember that the women went Sun. morning with spices to properly anoint the body for burial. They didn't have time to prepare his body prior to the Sabbath).

Therefore, in the Jewish method of timekeeping, Friday counts as the first day (even though he may have been buried just prior to sunset).
Sundown happens, the Sabbath starts...this is the Second day.
Saturday evening comes along, and the first day of the week starts which is Sunday...The Third Day!Remember that the Gospel accounts tell us that the women went early, while it was still dark on Sun. AM and found the stone had been rolled away!

If He was crucified Thursday...then He was resurrected on the fourth day, If Wednesday, then He was resurrected on the fifth day...

Work it out for yourself...

Let's talk about Jonah for a moment, and Jesus' prophecy:

Matt 12:40

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

If we'll (GASP) put this passage into context, we see that Jesus wasn't talking about three 24 hour periods...He was talking about signs and people wanting signs....

That the sign would be His resurrection the Third Day!!!

Compare it to Jonah, then compare it to the rest of the prophecy of Christ and His meaning becomes clear.

Now here is something surprising to consider...According (once again) to the Jewish method of timekeeping...there is no way one can be buried, spend three "whole" days and three "whole" nights in the grave...and be resurrected the third day...it would be the fourth day...no way around it :rolleyes:.

Once again...work it out for yourself! :)

RJ Mac
Feb 26th 2008, 03:53 PM
If your friend died at 11 on Friday night, and was buried on Wednesday, I wonder how many people when asked, When did he die? You would say Saturday. No I think you would say Friday, irregardless how close it was to Saturday and irregardless on what day He was buried.

And yet here we have Jesus arrested at midnight on Friday, 3 trials before Jews before sunrise, 3 trials before the Gentiles before 9 am, crucified and hung on the cross for 6 hours, 3 hrs in light 3 hrs in sheer darkness, and died at 3 pm, taken off the cross and laid in the tomb before 6 PM, and yet when asked by people, they all say He died on Saturday. Go figure.

So the two on the road to Emmaus, know this is the third day since He died, and that day He died was a busy day. Since the day He rose was on Sunday, then counting backwards, it would make the day He died Friday. But to be literally three days and three nights, we shall make it Thursday though some make the day of His death Wednesday, making it even longer. If this was an issue, don't you think the Jews would have wrote about the controversy because we have always taught it was Friday.

RJ

mcgyver
Feb 26th 2008, 04:04 PM
RJ....see what you're doing??

You're challenging the accepted "I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with the facts" mindset! (GASP!!!) :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Mograce2U
Feb 26th 2008, 06:36 PM
At 6pm Weds, Thurs begins: at 3pm Thurs Christ dies = 1st day in the tomb before Friday begins.

At 6pm Thurs, Fri begins: 1st Nite in the tomb and a special Sabbath begins

Friday = the 2nd day is the Feast of Unleavened Bread

At 6pm Fri, Sat begins: the 2nd nite

Saturday = the 3rd day is a regular Sabbath

At 6pm Sat, Sun begins: the 3rd nite

Now before dawn on Sunday, the tomb is found empty - before the day begins, while it is still night.

The fact that the disciples on the road to Emmaus spoke of Sunday being the 3rd day since Jesus died works if they are speaking in terms of Roman observance and not Jewish - both of which were utilized in those times. Since Jesus actually arose before the dawn of that day while it was still during the nite portion ought to show that Sunday day is not included for our count. The disciples are merely using a figure of speech, they are not "prophesying" for us. Even so, until 6pm came to end that day and start Monday, they were still in that first day of the week in which Christ arose from the dead.

Besides that we have Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey on Nissan 10, presenting Himself as the unblemished Lamb of God - which was on Sunday and the first day of the week. Passover is Nissan 14th, Thursday and the day the feast begins when the lamb is slain and eaten in the evening. The first day of Unleavened Bread follows Passover on the 15th as a special Friday Sabbath. Wednesday was the day of preparation and also the Last Supper (as Jesus prepares His disciples for what is to come - washing their feet) and the night of Jesus' arrest - which was also the beginning of Thursday.

If the Passion week does not follow the feasts given to Israel, then they did not provide the type for Him to fulfill.

It is also significant to see what Jesus was doing during those days of His inspection as the sinless Lamb of God between Sunday and Wednesday.

ravi4u2
Feb 26th 2008, 06:58 PM
After doing a bit of research on the dates of Passovers during the third and fourth decades AD, one thing is clear and that's that no one can even agree on WHEN those Passovers were. :rolleyes: Just for the year 30 AD I have seen four different dates and days for Passover. Exactly! Maybe, the date was not meant to be known. Just the fact that He was crucified and that He resurrected! Lest, we celebrate the day rather than the Person!

mcgyver
Feb 26th 2008, 07:36 PM
At 6pm Weds, Thurs begins: at 3pm Thurs Christ dies = 1st day in the tomb before Friday begins.

At 6pm Thurs, Fri begins: 1st Nite in the tomb and a special Sabbath begins

Friday = the 2nd day is the Feast of Unleavened Bread

At 6pm Fri, Sat begins: the 2nd nite

Saturday = the 3rd day is a regular Sabbath

At 6pm Sat, Sun begins: the 3rd nite

Now before dawn on Sunday, the tomb is found empty - before the day begins, while it is still night.

The fact that the disciples on the road to Emmaus spoke of Sunday being the 3rd day since Jesus died works if they are speaking in terms of Roman observance and not Jewish - both of which were utilized in those times. Since Jesus actually arose before the dawn of that day while it was still during the nite portion ought to show that Sunday day is not included for our count. The disciples are merely using a figure of speech, they are not "prophesying" for us. Even so, until 6pm came to end that day and start Monday, they were still in that first day of the week in which Christ arose from the dead.

Besides that we have Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey on Nissan 10, presenting Himself as the unblemished Lamb of God - which was on Sunday and the first day of the week. Passover is Nissan 14th, Thursday and the day the feast begins when the lamb is slain and eaten in the evening. The first day of Unleavened Bread follows Passover on the 15th as a special Friday Sabbath. Wednesday was the day of preparation and also the Last Supper (as Jesus prepares His disciples for what is to come - washing their feet) and the night of Jesus' arrest - which was also the beginning of Thursday.

If the Passion week does not follow the feasts given to Israel, then they did not provide the type for Him to fulfill.

It is also significant to see what Jesus was doing during those days of His inspection as the sinless Lamb of God between Sunday and Wednesday.

Sorry, culturally, socially, and historically it just won't work....

If He was crucified on Thurs, and buried before sundown <--(KEY HERE) forget 6 PM...sundown and sunrise occur at different times...thus the division of the days into "watches" Then:

Thursday would be the 1st day (remember that to the Jews, any part of the day counted as the whole day...see my post above)...sunset comes and Friday starts:

Friday would be the 2nd day...Sunset comes on Friday evening, and the Sabbath starts (Saturday...remember that their days start at sunset):

Saturday now is the 3rd day...sunset comes on Saturday evening and the first day of the week (Sunday) starts...

Sunday is now the 4th day...

As far as setting dates:

Highly suspect, in that we don't even know FOR CERTAIN in what year the crucifixion occurred....AD 33 is commonly accepted from the traditions handed down from the early church, BUT: AD 30, and AD 36 can also be used with no problem.

Additionally, the Passover follows the phases of the Moon (a lunar calendar with Passover during the time of the full moon), so there can be great variance in the dates...

Not to mention 3 different Jewish calendars, 360 days instead of 365, and an extra month thrown in every now and then just to keep things straight.

From the context of scripture, and the context of 1st century Jewish culture...once again only Friday fits the bill....

Mograce2U
Feb 26th 2008, 07:50 PM
Sorry, culturally, socially, and historically it just won't work....

If He was crucified on Thurs, and buried before sundown <--(KEY HERE) forget 6 PM...sundown and sunrise occur at different times...thus the division of the days into "watches" Then:

Thursday would be the 1st day (remember that to the Jews, any part of the day counted as the whole day...see my post above)...sunset comes and Friday starts:

Friday would be the 2nd day...Sunset comes on Friday evening, and the Sabbath starts (Saturday...remember that their days start at sunset):

Saturday now is the 3rd day...sunset comes on Saturday evening and the first day of the week (Sunday) starts...

Sunday is now the 4th day...

As far as setting dates:

Highly suspect, in that we don't even know FOR CERTAIN in what year the crucifixion occurred....AD 33 is commonly accepted from the traditions handed down from the early church, BUT: AD 30, and AD 36 can also be used with no problem.

Additionally, the Passover follows the phases of the Moon (a lunar calendar with Passover during the time of the full moon), so there can be great variance in the dates...

Not to mention 3 different Jewish calendars, 360 days instead of 365, and an extra month thrown in every now and then just to keep things straight.

From the context of scripture, and the context of 1st century Jewish culture...once again only Friday fits the bill....That is exactly why the counting of days, weeks, months and years is of little help - yet alone 24 hour periods. The scriptural symbolism is what designates Passover for us; and Christ is our Passover Lamb! The passion week of Christ is clearly presented in scripture as being at the time of this feast and in accordance with its observance.

And it is also why our celebration of the Last Supper is not tied to any particular day or season. Neither Good Friday nor Passover (and God forbid Easter) is a day marked out by scripture for us to celebrate as a "holy-day" for our observance.

mcgyver
Feb 26th 2008, 08:00 PM
And in this, my fellow pilgrim...we agree!!! :)

mcgyver
Feb 26th 2008, 08:25 PM
Just a note here:

From the First Apology of Justin Martyr (circa AD 150), chapter LXVII: Weekly Worship of The Christians (extract):

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun (Sunday), having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things....." Italics and underlining Mine.

When we consider that this missive was written while some people who had witnessed the event (or their sons and daughters), were still living...and Justin Martyr states that Christ was crucified on Friday...and that he would have been especially careful of his facts in writing this defense of Christianity to the Emperor of Rome...

We are on shaky ground when we call "Good Friday" a Hoax IMO!

ShirleyFord
Feb 26th 2008, 08:27 PM
He was taken down prior to the start of the new day (sundown) and hastily buried in a tomb (remember that the women went Sun. morning with spices to properly anoint the body for burial. They didn't have time to prepare his body prior to the Sabbath)

John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.

42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.



Shirley

mcgyver
Feb 26th 2008, 08:32 PM
(sigh) I should have said "prepare His body Properly"...quite an undertaking in those days...

Luke 24:1-3 (NKJV)

"Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus."

RJ Mac
Feb 26th 2008, 09:18 PM
Since no one is to work on the Sabbath, Nicodemus and Joseph being very religious men, must have had the body wrapped and the stone rolled before sunset. Therefore that would have to be the first day.

An earlier point I made was, it was His Spirit in Hades that is our focus, the gates of Hades could not contain Him, therefore He was in Hades the moment He died, which would have been 3 PM that afternoon.

RJ

Codger
Feb 26th 2008, 10:35 PM
Happens every Easter!!! :rolleyes:

Somebody's got to come out with the "He couldn't have been crucified on Friday..."

Folks...can we get rid of western mindset and the "24 hour/48 hour/72 hours" thing for a moment...and see how the Jews themselves counted time?

As has been pointed out, the Jews considered any part of the day to count as the whole day, and their days started at EENT (end of evening nautical twilight) or sundown (depending on which Rabbinical school interpreted it) and not midnight.

Certainly this is not foreign to us...if you have a child born at 11:59 PM on Dec 31st of...say 2007, then you can take that child on your 2007 taxes...He/She is considered to have been alive the whole year by the IRS, even though he/she made an appearance 1 minute prior to the roll over into the new year...

So then, the key part of prophecy identifying the Christ is that He would be raised the THIRD DAY.

Friday is the only day that will work for the day of crucifixion for the following reason (s):

He was taken down prior to the start of the new day (sundown) and hastily buried in a tomb (remember that the women went Sun. morning with spices to properly anoint the body for burial. They didn't have time to prepare his body prior to the Sabbath).

Therefore, in the Jewish method of timekeeping, Friday counts as the first day (even though he may have been buried just prior to sunset).
Sundown happens, the Sabbath starts...this is the Second day.
Saturday evening comes along, and the first day of the week starts which is Sunday...The Third Day!Remember that the Gospel accounts tell us that the women went early, while it was still dark on Sun. AM and found the stone had been rolled away!

If He was crucified Thursday...then He was resurrected on the fourth day, If Wednesday, then He was resurrected on the fifth day...

Work it out for yourself...

Let's talk about Jonah for a moment, and Jesus' prophecy:

Matt 12:40

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

If we'll (GASP) put this passage into context, we see that Jesus wasn't talking about three 24 hour periods...He was talking about signs and people wanting signs....

That the sign would be His resurrection the Third Day!!!

Compare it to Jonah, then compare it to the rest of the prophecy of Christ and His meaning becomes clear.

Now here is something surprising to consider...According (once again) to the Jewish method of timekeeping...there is no way one can be buried, spend three "whole" days and three "whole" nights in the grave...and be resurrected the third day...it would be the fourth day...no way around it :rolleyes:.

Once again...work it out for yourself! :)


Makes sense to me. The only thing I could add to this would be the comparative dates in history. Jesus was crucified in 29Ad because this was a year of jubilee - which I already stated, but also the first Passover was on April 14th 1462BC when the blood was put upon the doorways and the Angel of death passed over the Israelites. On April 15th Israel was released from slavery under Moses. This is parallel to the work of the Lord who set all mankind free from the slavery of sin.

The last and final Passover was on Thursday April 14th 29AD. Jesus ate it with his disciples. That night he was arrested and the next day - the 15th was crucified. The selfsame day as the original shadow.

Larry

Studyin'2Show
Feb 27th 2008, 02:20 AM
Curiously, for those who seem to be quite clear that He was crucified on Friday. Though we don't agree on that, do you agree that He was quite certainly crucified, buried and resurrected in relation the the feasts called Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits? Why then do we not base the celebration of this momentous event on those same things? Is it really the Vernal Equinox that should guide us to this day?

Oh, and Codger, it was according to scripture, the Preparation Day not Passover. Many people miss that distinction. Also, it was Nisan 14, not April 14th. ;)

John 19:14 - Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold your King!”

John 18:31 - Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

If you want to discuss scripture, fine. But let's not simply defend the traditions of our fathers. We can disagree on the day, date and whatever else, but let's stick to the facts of Scripture. It was not an ordinary Sabbath but rather a High Sabbath that was to come. The day after Passover is the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is also a High Sabbath. In this case the three days were ALL Sabbaths (2 High Days and one regular weekly Sabbath). First Fruits is not a High Sabbath Day and thus would be the first chance His followers would have to see that He had risen, as it is always the day after the Sabbath. :)

God Bless!

Teke
Feb 27th 2008, 02:29 PM
Guess the church will always be divided on this.



Date of Pascha

Nothing challenges the credibility of this fact to non-believers more than the scandal of our division on this point of celebration. In the ardent desire to address this problematic and troubling reality, the following contribution is offered.....

Almost from the very beginning of the existence of the Christian Church, the issue regarding the date of our Lord's death and resurrection presented variations. Although the New Testament relates these events to the Jewish Passover, the details of this relationship are not clear. On the one hand, the tradition of the synoptic gospels identifies the Lord's last supper with His disciples as a passover meal. This would place the death of our Lord on the day after Passover. On the other hand, the tradition of the gospel of St. John situates the death of our Lord at the very hour the paschal lambs were sacrificed on the day of Passover itself. This variation in the interpretation of the scriptures led to two different practices. The one observed Pascha on the day of Passover, regardless of the day of the week. The other observed it on the Sunday following Passover. By the 4th century, the latter practice prevailed throughout the Church universally; nevertheless, differences continued to exist.

In response to this ongoing problem, the First Ecumenical Council convened at Nicaea in 325 took up the issue. It determined that Pascha should be celebrated on the Sunday which follows the first full moon after the vernal equinox-the actual beginning of spring. If the full moon happens to fall on a Sunday, Pascha is observed the following Sunday. The day taken to be the invariable date of the vernal equinox is March 21. Hence, the determination of the date of Pascha is governed by a process dependent on the vernal equinox and the phase of the moon.

Another factor which figures prominently in determining the date of Pascha is the date of Passover. Originally, Passover was celebrated on the first full moon after the vernal equinox. Christians, therefore, celebrated Pascha according to the same calculation-that is, on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox. The correlation between the date of Pascha and the date of Passover is clear. Our Lord's death and resurrection coincided with Passover, thereby assuring a secure point of reference in time. This assurance lasted, however, only for a short time.

Events in Jewish history contributing to the dispersion of the Jews had as a consequence a departure from the way Passover was reckoned at the time of our Lord's death and resurrection. This caused the Passover to precede the vernal equinox in some years. It was, in fact, this anomaly which led to the condemnation reflected in Canon 1 of Antioch (ca. 330) and Canon 7 of the Holy Apostles (late 4th century) of those who celebrate Pascha "with the Jews." The purpose of this condemnation was to prevent Christians from taking into account the calculation of Passover in determining the date of Pascha.

Most Christians eventually ceased to regulate the observance of Pascha by the Jewish Passover. Their purpose, of course, was to preserve the original practice of celebrating Pascha following the vernal equinox. Thus, the Council of Nicaea sought to link the principles for determining the date of Pascha to the norms for calculating Passover during our Lord's lifetime.

Despite the intervention of Nicaea, certain differences in the technicalities of regulating the date of Pascha remained even thereafter. This resulted occasionally in local variations until, by the 6th century, a more secure mode of calculation based on astronomical data was universally accepted. This was an alternative to calculating Pascha by the Passover and consisted in the creation of so-called "paschal cycles." Each paschal cycle corresponded to a certain number of years. Depending upon the number of years in the cycle, the full moon occurred on the same day of the year as at the beginning of the cycle with some exceptions. The more accurate the cycle, the less frequent were the exceptions. In the East, a 19-year cycle was eventually adopted, whereas in the West an 84-year cycle. The use of two different paschal cycles inevitably gave way to differences between the Eastern and Western Churches regarding the observance of Pascha.

A further cause for these differences was the adoption by the Western Church of the Gregorian Calendar in the 16th century. This took place in order to adjust the discrepancy by then observed between the paschal cycle approach to calculating Pascha and the available astronomical data. The Orthodox Church continues to base its calculations for the date of Pascha on the Julian Calendar, which was in use at the time of the First Ecumenical Council. As such, it does not take into account the number of days, which have since then accrued due to the progressive loss of time in this calendar.

Practically speaking, this means that Pascha may not be celebrated before April 3, which was March 21, the date of the vernal equinox, at the time of the First Ecumenical Council. In other words, a difference of 13 days exists between the accepted date for the vernal equinox then and now. Consequently, it is the combination of these variables which accounts for the different dates of Pascha observed by the Orthodox Church and other Christian Churches.

If anything, this review of the complexities surrounding the issue of the date of Pascha underscores the compelling need to revisit it with patience and openness. This was the spirit which predominated at the most recent consultation on the matter held in Aleppo, Syria in 1997. One of its conclusions was that the present differences in the calendars and lunar tables (paschal cycles) employed rather than to differences in fundamental theological outlook. In view of the fact that both the Julian and Gregorian modes of calculation diverge from the astronomical data, it behooves us to return to the norms determined by the Council of Nicaea. Although the council did not itself undertake a detailed regulation of the paschal calculation, it did in fact respect available contemporary science regarding the vernal equinox and the phase of the moon. We can do no less today.

Dr. Lewis J. Patsavos,
Professor of Canon Law Holy Cross School of Theology

Revel
Feb 27th 2008, 03:41 PM
To everyone following this:

This is an excellent exchange…

This is what we as Christ church have blessed to have in our hands:

The Gospels are in perfect harmony with the Mosaic Law… and Paul’s letters are in perfect harmony with both. Our Lord has given us multiple witnesses who speak to the subject who provide different pieces of the same puzzle.

Matthew (27), Mark (15), Luke (23), John (13 & 19), Moses (Exod. 12), and Paul (1 Cor. 5:7) are all in agreement regarding the time of the Crucifixion: Passover.

We as Christ's church can certainly agree on this, and the significance of speaking of the Crucifixion in light of the holy day of Passover...

What follows are the records from the Gospels:

This is the record from John:

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. (John 19:31)

The Crucifixion took place on “the day of Preparation”: Passover, Nisan 14… and this day ended at sunset.

The next day was a “special Sabbath”: the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15… and this day began at sunset. Jesus was in the burial tomb as Nisan 14 was ending and Nisan 15 was beginning.

Joseph of Arimathaea buried Jesus around sunset. “Then he [Joseph] took it [the body of Jesus] down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. It was Preparation Day [Passover], and the Sabbath [Unleavened Bread] was about to begin [at sunset]” (Luke 23:53, 54).

The marking of time in Luke is in complete agreement with John, and Luke and John are in complete agreement with Moses.

On the fifteenth of Nisan, which began at sunset, Christ was in the sealed tomb—which was the day of a special Sabbath: the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Now, what does the Gospel of Mark state about the timing of the Crucifixion?

It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. (Mark 15:42, 43)

Mark is in agreement with Luke, John, and Moses: the Crucifixion (the slaying of the lamb) took place on the “Preparation Day… the day before the Sabbath.” The Sabbath is the “special Sabbath” spoken of by John: the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is the testimony of the Old and New Testaments—and no one in the Bible disagrees it.

Mark also made specific mention of both holy days:

Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him. “But not during the Feast,” they said, “or the people may riot.” (Mark 14:1, 2)

If Mark can speak of Passover and Unleavened Bread, then why can’t we do likewise this Resurrection season?

Finally, how does Matthew mark time?

As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb. The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. (Matt. 27:57-62)

Matthew also states that Jesus was crucified the on the Preparation Day (Passover). The chief priests paid a visit to Pilate on the day after Preparation Day (Passover)—and the next day was the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

If Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Moses, and Paul are in complete agreement, then why shouldn't we allow our minds to line up with them?

Note: There is a precedent in the Old Testament that clearly foreshadows that Christ would be in the burial tomb from Nisan 15 to Nisan 18—which is in complete agreement with the irrefutable testimony of Christ himself (3 days and 3 nights). I will address this in a subsequent post.

Next: the Feast of Unleavened Bread

God bless.

revel

Studyin'2Show
Feb 27th 2008, 05:17 PM
Thanks for the study, Revel. I've been in this discussion here and elsewhere on the web and I must say that I have learned quite a few things. I'm a bit busy now working but I'd like to share a few things that have changed my view just a bit as I have been studying this issue this year. Very interesting stuff indeed! :D

God Bless!

Revel
Feb 27th 2008, 05:35 PM
Hello Studin'2Show,

God bless your heart... and thanks for your thoughts.

I love this subject... It's why we are... who we are... in Christ!!!

THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD

Christ’s burial is marked by the next feast: the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This feast began on the next day, the fifteenth of Nisan, which began at sunset. (Biblical days began at sunset.)

The Feast of Unleavened Bread is marked at the fifteenth day of Nisan, for on that day the angel of death struck down the Egyptians before midnight, and the children of Israel left Egypt that same evening. On this very day in ancient history, “Moses said to the people, ‘Commemorate this day, the day you came out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, because the Lord brought you out of it with a mighty hand. Eat nothing containing yeast [nothing leavened]’” (Exod. 13:3). This feast marks the separation from Egyptian life, their gods, and what is sinful (leavened), and invites the believer to feed upon the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the true “bread of life” (John 6:35).

Prior to the Exodus, God told Moses about a “three days’ journey” (Exod. 3:18). The Israelites left Egypt on the fifteenth of Nisan (on the holy day of Unleavened Bread), and a three days’ journey would have placed the Israelites at the shore of the Rea Sea on the eighteenth of Nisan. These three days foreshadowed the time Jesus would be in the burial tomb, and the miracle at the Red Sea (Nisan 18) foreshadowed the miracle of the Resurrection (Nisan 18).

Next: the Feast of FirstFruits

God bless.

revel

mcgyver
Feb 27th 2008, 07:28 PM
I agree that this is a wonderful, thought inspiring thread!

I would like to put a couple of things out here for consideration as we continue...things that I have found from my own studies concerning the Passion and Resurrection of Jesus.

First, a brief comment as to why I am so firm in standing for a Friday crucifixion as has been handed down to us:

When the unsaved see us disputing about what day Christ was crucified (even though it was never an issue in the early church as we shall see in a moment), the comment is to the effect of "they don't even know when He died, what else are they wrong about".

Having said that, if I may let me continue as to why I believe that the crucifixion happened on Friday, and why there is no conflict with ANY of the Gospel accounts :).
I have come to think that "The Lord's Supper" did NOT happen on the passover. John records that Christ was crucified and Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate to ask for Jesus' body on the day of preparation. (John 19:31-42).
If in this year, the Passover happened to fall on Saturday (the Sabbath); which incidentally happened quite often due to the month of Veadar coming in 7 times every 19 years, then The Sabbath would be a "High Sabbath" as recorded in John 19:31.
The first day of the week then, would be the time that the priests would cut some sheaves as a "wave offering" of firstfruits to the Lord. Tying in nicely to doxologies of the early church: "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us", as well as Christ being the "firstfruits".If items one and two are correct (and I believe they are), then a Friday crucifixion is not a problem EXCEPT FOR:

Matt 12:40
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Which with your kind permission I will attempt to address.

The context (IMO) dictates the interpretation...Matt 12:38,39

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

The context is one of people wanting "signs"...Jesus here is not saying that he would be dead for 72hrs (remember that to spend 3 whole days and 3 whole nights in the grave...and be resurrected the 3rd day is an impossibility by the Jewish method of timekeeping...simply can't happen).
What then was the message of Jonah to Nineveh? "Repent or perish"...

The term "3 days and 3 nights" was a colloquialism for 3 periods of time...in this case referring to the "3rd Day". Please note that Ignatius had no problem understanding the colloquialism in his epistle that follows.

Just as importantly though, is the acceptance of a Friday crucifixion in the early church. Although what follows is not inspired, they are extremely significant in that they are close to the event...close enough that if the days were wrong, someone who had been there and seen the event would certainly have disputed it, especially as this first letter was circulated throughout the churches in the area:

From Ignatius' (Bishop of Antioch) Epistle to the Trallians. Chapter 9 (extract) written somewhere around AD 60:

On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection.

Please note the portion I have underlined.


Also, from Justin Martyr's first apology Circa AD 150, chapter LXVII: Weekly Worship of The Christians (extract):

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun (Sunday), having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things....." Italics and underlining Mine.

Although written much later what is so important about this, is that the sons and daughters of those who had been there were still alive, and that a Friday crucifixion was accepted by the early Christians.

Here we have a man who is writing a defense of Christianity to the most powerful man on earth; Caesar, trying to convince him that Christians are upright moral people...not deserving of persecution. He was most assuredly not going to make a mistake on something that was this easy to verify.

Although they have been lost to us down through history, the reports of Pontius Pilate were extant at this time. In fact Justin Martyr tells Caesar to check out the facts from what he terms "the acts of Pilate".

Time constraints prevent me from going much further...

But let me end the post with this thought: We need to get out of our Western mindset, and try to place ourselves into the shoes of a first century Jew...I've found that when we do this...supposed contradictions disappear!

Respectfully submitted:)

Studyin'2Show
Feb 27th 2008, 08:38 PM
When the unsaved see us disputing about what day Christ was crucified (even though it was never an issue in the early church as we shall see in a moment), the comment is to the effect of "they don't even know when He died, what else are they wrong about". Hello mcgyver! I have to disagree with this statement for a few reasons. First, as Teke posted previously, it HAS been an issue even in the early church. The best solution the fourth century church came up with was that rather than allowing varying understanding, (which BTW, differecence in interpretation is not a bad thing) and instead of keeping it tied to the 'Jewish' Passover (Actually called the LORD's Passover in Leviticus 23), they decided to tie it the Vernal Equinox and the cycle of the moon. :rolleyes:

Here's a bit of real life info for you. If a police detective is investigating an incident where there are many witnesses, what one thing is a dead giveaway for him that the witnesses are lying? It's if their stories all agree. It may sound odd but it is human nature to remember events or interpret events differently amongst a crowd. One witness heard four shots, the other five, and yet another still thinks it was three. Unbelievers do not choose to accept Yeshua because we interpret things differently. For those who are actually searching in truth, it actually gives us validity. You know, that we didn't all sit around and vote on something that might or might not be true just so we could get our stories straight. Oh yeah wait they did, but not all even then agreed to just follow blindly.

And finally, we don't have to be against each other because we disagree on an interpretation. I don't see this as an argument as much as an opportunity to study. ;) With that said, it's likely the title of the thread (which could have been less antagonistic) is what gives it the flavor of something negative but it really should not be. :)

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Feb 28th 2008, 03:55 AM
Hi Mcgyver,
The problem I see with the Friday idea is that it cannot account for a 3rd nite, although it could account for 3 days.

mcgyver
Feb 28th 2008, 05:00 AM
Hi Robin,

Once again, I think that maybe our western mindset is causing us some problems...

Lets accept for a moment that Jesus was being literally idiomatic (a seeming paradox I know, but bear with me for a moment and I'll explain).

We think of our "day" starting when the sun comes up...even though it actually starts at midnight the evening before...and we count time in an exclusive manner.

However, the Jewish day both ends and starts with the setting of the sun, and is counted in an inclusive manner.

Now a couple of things that we know:

Jesus rose the third day (Sunday)

Jewish days ended and the new day started at sunset. This method of counting days was based on Genesis "and the evening and the morning was the______day".

Jews reckoned any part of the day as being a whole day.

If Jesus was crucified on Friday, then the whole of Friday (which started on what we would term "Thursday Evening") counts...One night and One day...because "and the evening and the morning was the____day". 1 Day was a unit consisting of "Evening and Morning."

If we count by this reckoning of any part of the day being counted as the whole of the day...we get three days and three nights with a Sunday resurrection (remember that it wasn't even daylight when the women went to the tomb...yet it was counted as the third day).

As a point of clarification (or possibly confusion at this point :lol:) let me illustrate with...today.

When I get up in the morning, it will be Thursday (which for us) started 12 minutes ago. I'll work all day, then come home at some point, look out the window at the darkness and say it's Thursday evening or Thursday night (until midnight)...and I'll be correct.

But if I'm a first century Jew:

When I get up in the morning it will be Thursday (which started 6 hours ago, more or less). I'll work all day, come home at some point, look out the window at the darkness, and I'll say it's Friday evening...and I'll be correct. Thursday evening for me started Wednesday when the sun went down.

Again:

If you ask me what three days from today is: I'll answer "Hmmm, Friday, Saturday, ahhh... Sunday...and I'll be correct.

But if I'm a first century Jew and you ask the same question, I'll answer: "Hmmm, Thursday, Friday, ahhh... Saturday...and I'd be correct.

Just a thought...

RJ Mac
Feb 28th 2008, 02:27 PM
McGivyer

A wise man once shared with me the following


"I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with the facts

Studyin'2Show
Feb 28th 2008, 03:05 PM
McGivyer

A wise man once shared with me the following


"I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with the facts
Ironically, that can be applied to more than one side of this issue. My mother told me last year about a tv preacher (to remain nameless) who did this whole big study that showed the 'facts' that lead many to believe it was not Friday. This preacher concluded that in his opinion it was not Friday. Then about a month later, started promoting his 'Good Friday Service'. :lol:

What seems clear is that we can look at 'the facts' here and come up with different conclusions, and that's okay. ;) What I genuinely can not understand is that no matter which day of the week the crucifixion was, why oh why is Resurrection Day linked to the sun and the moon? :rolleyes: (Vernal Eqinox, phase of the moon) Why not come to some sort of agreement concerning Passover, maybe even saying it will be the Sunday after Passover if Passover is not on a Sunday and if it is Sunday, it will be on the following Sunday. THAT I could at least understand as a compromise. Throwing off the LORD's Passover altogether, which is the one thing we ALL agree was that week, and choosing to rather follow the sun and the moon, that I just don't get. :dunno:

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Feb 28th 2008, 03:29 PM
Denise,
Really! And when I hear the radio preachers go on and on about why we celebrate Easter/ Ishtar, I just cringe. It seems to me that the Jews have the right day but the wrong understanding, while we have the right understanding and the wrong day! I think the only cure is to give these traditions up altogether...

Studyin'2Show
Feb 28th 2008, 03:55 PM
Denise,
Really! And when I hear the radio preachers go on and on about why we celebrate Easter/ Ishtar, I just cringe. It seems to me that the Jews have the right day but the wrong understanding, while we have the right understanding and the wrong day! I think the only cure is to give these traditions up altogether...Come Lord Yeshua! :pray: :D

RJ Mac
Feb 28th 2008, 03:58 PM
Passover is set by the full moon, the Jewish months started on a new moon, so we set Passover not by a date but the full moon.

I do not celebrate Passover or as some say Easter, because it is not commanded to in the NT. We celebrate His death, burial and resurrection every Sunday with communion, the breaking of bread and partaking of the cup what some call the Lord's Table, not once a year but once a week.

I do not celebrate Christmas because it is not commanded to in the NT. We do not celebrate His birth as men love to do with birthdays but we celebrate His death, every Sunday with the Lord's Table.

I reminded McGyver what he wrote to me, 'My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts." because as you say it goes both ways, the argument has been presented on both sides and both sides are well entrenched. Like the question do you need to be baptized to be saved? Both sides well entrenched, so why go there on this board. This is a good board to hear different views and those open minded will grow with knowledge as they sharpen their sword with the swords of others.

We don't convert people, we don't win arguments, the Holy Spirit is the one who converts and is the one who cuts a man's heart with the Truth, but the man has to be listening to be blessed. May God bless us all with open hearts and open ears. Love you all who engage in dialogue and if you don't engage know this we would love to hear from you. Everyone has something to contribute, we are all disciples of Christ, whose desire is the same, to bring glory to God through the lives we live.

RJ

Teke
Feb 28th 2008, 04:11 PM
What seems clear is that we can look at 'the facts' here and come up with different conclusions, and that's okay. ;) What I genuinely can not understand is that no matter which day of the week the crucifixion was, why oh why is Resurrection Day linked to the sun and the moon? :rolleyes: (Vernal Eqinox, phase of the moon) Why not come to some sort of agreement concerning Passover, maybe even saying it will be the Sunday after Passover if Passover is not on a Sunday and if it is Sunday, it will be on the following Sunday. THAT I could at least understand as a compromise. Throwing off the LORD's Passover altogether, which is the one thing we ALL agree was that week, and choosing to rather follow the sun and the moon, that I just don't get. :dunno:

God Bless!

Long time ago another poster and I addressed the Israelites use of the sun and moon to decide their feasts. Using scripture only, it is near impossible. Israel's reason for doing so was agricultural. Even though we are not as agriculturally minded as they were then, because agriculture is pretty significant to God, from scriptures use of it, the equinox becomes significant in that line of thinking.

The church council I posted on addressed the very things you have asked about above.

The spring equinox will always be significant in that it signals spring and the first fruits of the field. What would Pentecost be without first fruits....
The Resurrection feast (Pascha) of the church is also linked to Pentecost. It is so significant in my religion, that every week for the rest of the year is counted from Pentecost. Currently on the Gregorian calendar, this week, is the 39th week from Pentecost. After next week, the 40th week, the strict 40 day fast for Lent begins. This ends with the Resurrection feast and then we start counting again.

My point is this, the ancient church never quit the practice. The traditionalist (like me) also don't use the Gregorian calendar, but the Julian (aka old calendar).

This year, according to the Gregorian calendar, western Easter will be on March 23, while eastern Pascha will be on April 27th.

mcgyver
Feb 28th 2008, 04:30 PM
Denise,
Really! And when I hear the radio preachers go on and on about why we celebrate Easter/ Ishtar, I just cringe. It seems to me that the Jews have the right day but the wrong understanding, while we have the right understanding and the wrong day! I think the only cure is to give these traditions up altogether...

But then...do we also not run the risk of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater?" :)

My personal opinion is that God's timing of events is never "random", and that He has a purpose in everything He does...

The Crucifixion and Resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the very centerpiece of our faith...Fulfillment of prophecy...a demonstration of that which had been foreshadowed...A clear identification to God's people the Jews that Messiah is/was/always shall be; a certain Jesus of Nazareth.

All these things happened that Messiah would be identified...In the left behind series a wonderful analogy was given in the form of writing a letter: Out of all the billions of people on earth, you can write a letter to an individual and it will get there...each piece of information serves to identify that individual from "the masses". You have his name, you have his country, you have his state (US), you have his city, you have his street address, you have his zip code....so out of billions of people living and dead you have pinpointed one person.

So it is with the Christ.

What I have seen in the course of Christianity (and what I consider a dangerous precedent), is an attempt to interpret biblical events to fit our frame of reference, instead of changing our frame of reference to fit biblical events....

It really became prominent (although it existed earlier) in the school of "higher criticism" in the 1800s, and continues to this day.

C.S. Lewis in his book "The Screwtape Letters" succinctly calls it "The Horror of The Same Old Thing".

Part of the Human condition, I guess...

We don't understand where the dinosaurs fit into Genesis...and the "Gap theory" is born.

We don't understand how a global flood could occur (the laws of physics will not allow for it)...so it must be an allegory.

We don't understand how a man could be swallowed by a fish and survive in its stomach for 3 days...so it must be a similitude.

We can't understand how 3 days and 3 nights could occur with a Friday crucifixion...so we must change the day...

We are most certainly commanded to study; to test all things and hold fast what is true...but we are also enjoined to maintain sound doctrine. :)

As far as a Friday crucifixion, I'd like to address corroborating evidence in my next post if I may.

P.S. my comment about "making up my mind, now don't confuse me with the facts" was made "tongue in cheek" :rofl::rofl:

Mograce2U
Feb 28th 2008, 04:35 PM
Mcgyver,
But that is exactly why none of those things that men question even matter. Jesus did not instruct us to remember His death on a particular Friday (or Thursday) - and that is why the confusion sticks to them. Nor are we required to have faith in our scientific discoveries. It is a bent that we apparently cannot resist doing however. We are determined to shore up "faith" with these props - none of which can hold us up though it feels good (religiously) to do them. And all they become is occasions for more sin - Easter bunnies, Santa Claus, etc. Sins by which idolatry comes in.

Addendum:
And trying to get it "right" is not the way to resolve it. The right day is not the answer anymore than having the right candles, robes, sacraments, statues, liturgy... on and on it goes as we create this religious monster which we then serve, with our praise and tithes.

The temple was destroyed for a reason: to put an end to all this once and for all.

mcgyver
Feb 28th 2008, 04:49 PM
Very true Robin, I was simply making a point that we need to be very circumspect in our interpretations and assertions as to (shall we say) "facts not in evidence."

In fact, if this thread had been titled along the lines of "Did the crucifixion really happen on Friday" I might (or might not) have taken such a strong approach (forgive me...I'm Irish:lol:).

This is a subject that I have wrestled with for 18 years...as it was one of those things that (as a new Christian) I seriously questioned...

Studyin'2Show
Feb 28th 2008, 05:48 PM
New moons are mentioned in Scripture even speaking of special sacrifices during the new moon, so I can see the phase of the moon having something to do with it. But again, I would think it would be based on scripture. Passover is in the month of Nissan during the twilight of the 14th day, which means that it is 14 days from the new moon. So, again, if the council had sat down and said Passion Week would begin two weeks from the new moon I could at least understand the rationalization. Then I could say that they were at least making an attempt to base it on Scripture. I can not understand the rationalization of just making it up. :dunno:

I agree mcgyver, that the title of the thread could have been a better one. ;)

Teke, we don't agree a whole lot but I can at least follow your logic here. BTW, This year Passover goes through April 27th so, we're not to far off! :D BTW, do you celebrate Pentecost 'before' Pascha?

Robin, we agree on a lot here but not all, and that's okay. As for casting off Passover, I just can't ignore Leviticus 23 which goes through all the feasts of YHWH, which says that His people will celebrate forever. Yeshua is indeed my Passover Lamb, yet I do not see that in anyway taking away the 'forever' of Lev. 23. I don't see why it would have been any trouble to continue to keep track of the months as laid out by Scripture.

The bottom line is that we each need to follow the word of God as we understand it. It is important to consider whether we are following the word of God or the tradition of man as Robin said. This has evidently been an issue from early on and will likely not get resolved until He comes! And that's just fine with me. ;)

God Bless!

mcgyver
Feb 28th 2008, 05:54 PM
I would like to focus for a moment on an important piece of corroborating evidence for a Friday crucifixion, if I may...then I'm going to let it go :P

I give you this not to try and "convince", but rather to provoke thought!

The evidence is found in, and I want to focus on: Justin Martyr's First Apology (which I will refer to as JMFA).

This letter is important for several reasons:
It is almost universally accepted as genuine. In fact, I don't know of any serious scholar who would put his reputation on the line by stating it is not genuine.
It is possible to date very closely the writing of this letter to Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar (whom I will refer to simply as Antonius Pius). JM refers to Felix as governor of Egypt. This is most certainly Lucius Munatius Felix whom the Oxyrhynchus papyri name as prefect in AD 151.
It gives us a wonderful insight into early Christianity, as well as establishing (from the abundance of scriptural quotes used) just how much of our New Testament had been written by this time (ca.151-155).As we have seen, JM states in Chapt LXVII:
"For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn, and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples..."

What is so significant about this...was that the facts could be checked by Antonius Pius.

In the Fourth Century, a document emerged that was purported to be the "Acts of Pilate". This document is completely spurious...But that should not detract from nor be confused with the real record of the "Acts of Pontius Pilate" (in existence and) in the archives of Antonius Pius.

The Romans were meticulous record keepers, as anyone who has studied Roman History will tell you. In fact, most of what we know of the Roman Empire and It's inner workings and personages comes from Roman records.

That being said, JMFA refers to several events and documents and invites Antonius Pius to check them out for himself to see if it's all true:

In Chap XXXIV JM writes:

"Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judaea" Records of the census were there! WOW!!!

In Chap XXXV JM writes:

"And the expression 'They pierced my hands and my feet', was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate".

In Chap XLVIII JM writes:

"And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate." Speaking of Christ's work and death being foretold.

Now comes the thought provoking portion:

If Antonius Pius was able to check these and other facts out from the reports of Pilate, and considering that JM was writing to convince Pius that Christians were upright, moral people who did not deserve to be persecuted...
Why would JM say that Christ was crucified on Friday if it were not so?

Especially as it was so easy to check at the time?


BTW...Studyin, What happened to our Florida Weather this morning???:lol:

Studyin'2Show
Feb 28th 2008, 06:39 PM
BTW...Studyin, What happened to our Florida Weather this morning???:lol:It was doggone cold, that's what happened! :o :lol:

So, here's the deal! Whether Yeshua was crucified on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday does not really make much difference to me. I know He was crucified on Nisan 14 at twilight. How am I certain? Because that is when God's word says the Passover lamb is to be slaughtered, and as you said earlier He doesn't do anything by accident. ;) Therefore, since I KNOW He was crucified as the true Passover Lamb on Nisan 14 at twilight (between 3pm and 6pm), buried on Unleavened Bread, and then resurrected on First Fruits; I can't go wrong following what the word of God stipulates. At least that's my take on the whole thing. :)

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Feb 28th 2008, 07:55 PM
For those who had become defiled from touching a dead body, they were prohibited from partaking in the feast. So, those who removed His body had no need to rush to make sure they got Him in the tomb before nightfall. They were basically forfeiting the Passover that evening, for one they would have in the next month.

Deuteronomy 9:6-11
6 Now there were certain men who were defiled by a human corpse, so that they could not keep the Passover on that day; and they came before Moses and Aaron that day. 7 And those men said to him, “We became
8 And Moses said to them, “Stand still, that I may hear what the LORD will command concerning you.”
9 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If anyone of you or your posterity is unclean because of a corpse, or defiled by a human corpse. Why are we kept from presenting the offering of the LORD at its appointed time among the children of Israel?” is far away on a journey, he may still keep the LORD’s Passover. 11 On the fourteenth day of the second month, at twilight, they may keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

Just thought it was an interesting tidbit. :D

God Bless!

Teke
Feb 28th 2008, 09:53 PM
Teke, we don't agree a whole lot but I can at least follow your logic here. BTW, This year Passover goes through April 27th so, we're not to far off! :D BTW, do you celebrate Pentecost 'before' Pascha?



Pentecost is celebrated after Pascha (feast of the Resurrection). But Pentecost is when weeks are begun to be counted.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 28th 2008, 10:54 PM
Pentecost is celebrated after Pascha (feast of the Resurrection). But Pentecost is when weeks are begun to be counted.So, basically, the day you begin counting and the day you end counting the 50 days are considered Pentecost; like bookends? Very interesting.

Mograce2U
Feb 29th 2008, 05:04 PM
For those who had become defiled from touching a dead body, they were prohibited from partaking in the feast. So, those who removed His body had no need to rush to make sure they got Him in the tomb before nightfall. They were basically forfeiting the Passover that evening, for one they would have in the next month.

Deuteronomy 9:6-11
6 Now there were certain men who were defiled by a human corpse, so that they could not keep the Passover on that day; and they came before Moses and Aaron that day. 7 And those men said to him, “We became
8 And Moses said to them, “Stand still, that I may hear what the LORD will command concerning you.”
9 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If anyone of you or your posterity is unclean because of a corpse, or defiled by a human corpse. Why are we kept from presenting the offering of the LORD at its appointed time among the children of Israel?” is far away on a journey, he may still keep the LORD’s Passover. 11 On the fourteenth day of the second month, at twilight, they may keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

Just thought it was an interesting tidbit. :D

God Bless!That is interesting. The resurrected Jesus remained here during that time before Pentecost arrived. Those men who took His body down from the cross would have still been able to partake of His sacrifice (by faith) before His ascension, since the law made that provision possible. Hmmm....

Studyin'2Show
Feb 29th 2008, 10:19 PM
That is interesting. The resurrected Jesus remained here during that time before Pentecost arrived. Those men who took His body down from the cross would have still been able to partake of His sacrifice (by faith) before His ascension, since the law made that provision possible. Hmmm....Wow, Robin! That is awesome insight! I didn't even consider that. :)

God Bless!

Revel
Mar 2nd 2008, 04:10 PM
I'm enjoy this... again, great dialogue...

The third holy day contained within the Crucifixion and Resurrection time frame is Firstfruits... It speaks of the miracle that took place at the Red Sea... the miracle of the Resurrection... and it speaks of the miracle of our future salvation... and the newness of life that follows.

THE FEAST OF FIRSTFRUITS

After the Israelites reached the shore of the Red Sea, they could see Pharaoh with his chariots pressing toward them. Yet Moses said, “Do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the Lord will bring you today” (Exod. 14:13).

Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left. The Egyptians pursued them, and all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots and horsemen followed them into the sea. . . . Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea so that the waters may flow back over the Egyptians and their chariots and horsemen.” (Exod. 14:21–23, 26)

God established a bridge to freedom—the land bridge formed at the base of the Red Sea. It was the salvation of the Israelites. It saved them from certain death.

Hundreds of years later on the very day that God parted the Red Sea and severed Pharaoh’s hold on the Israelites, he would raise his own Son from the dead. Therein, God would bring about deliverance from sin, sever Satan’s hold on the soul, and usher in immortality—and its freedom. This is our spiritual reality that reflects the physical reality of what took place across the Red Sea. The annual feast that commemorates this day of deliverance at the Red Sea is the Feast of Firstfruits.

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the Lord so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath’” (Lev. 23:9-11).

By offering the firstfruits of the harvest, the Israelites would acknowledge the miracle that ushered in their new “life.”

The parallel to our Lord is unmistakable: Christ was “the firstborn from the dead” (Rev. 1:5), and “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:20). On the holy day of Firstfruits, Christ—as the great high priest—presented himself to God as the firstfruits sacrifice in fulfillment of the Law. The resurrected Christ was the sheaf offering; he was the firstfruits of the “harvest” from the Earth.

According to the Law, this had to be done, “on the day after the Sabbath.” The “day after the Sabbath [Saturday]” is Sunday. On Sunday—the first day of the week—the priest had to present the firstfruits of the harvest. According to New Testament Scripture: “Jesus rose early on the first day of the week” (Mark 16:9)—which was the Feast of Firstfruits.

In essence, hundreds of years after the miracle at the Red Sea, God raised Christ from the dead on the same day and the Messiah became the firstfruits of the divine harvest from the heart of the Earth. Those who would believe this miracle would themselves become a miracle (by gaining eternal life), and would ultimately witness another miracle: the transformation to an eternal, spiritual body, harvested from this Earth to Heaven. The apostle Paul made specific reference to this truth:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [died]. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die [the physical death], so in Christ all will be made alive [transformed to immortal, spiritual life]. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes [at Christ’s return], those who belong to him [will also be harvested from the Earth to Heaven]. (1 Cor. 15:20–23)

The key to this transformation is Christ: he is the bridge to move from mortality to immortality.

Note: Prior to the Exodus, God told Moses about a “three days’ journey” (Exod. 3:18). The Israelites left Egypt on the fifteenth of Nisan (on the holy day of Unleavened Bread), and a three days’ journey would have placed the Israelites at the shore of the Rea Sea on the eighteenth of Nisan. These three days foreshadowed the time Jesus would be in the burial tomb, and the miracle at the Red Sea (Nisan 18) foreshadowed the miracle of the Resurrection (Nisan 18).

Next: The Feasts

God bless.

revel

Revel
Mar 2nd 2008, 04:27 PM
THE FEASTS

To conclude this section on the Crucifixion, burial, and Resurrection:

If Paul referred to our Lord as “Christ our Passover” (1 Cor. 5:7), then why can’t we do likewise?

If Jesus referred to himself as the “bread of life” (John 6:35), then why can’t we do likewise?

If Paul referred to our Lord as “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:20), then why can’t we do likewise?

Passover is not a hoax. Unleavened Bread is not a hoax. Firstfruits is not a hoax. Passover speaks of our present salvation: we proclaim our deliverance from sin through the death of “Christ our Passover.” Unleavened bread speaks of our separation from worldly gods, and Firstfruits speaks of our future salvation.

Whether we believe the Crucifixion took place Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday, shouldn’t we as Christ’s church speak of the Crucifixion as the apostles spoke of it, and teach the flock of Christ why Jesus is referred to as “Christ our Passover.”

Whether we believe the burial took place Wednesday night, Thursday night, or Friday night, shouldn’t we speak of it as the apostles spoke of it, and teach the flock of Christ why Jesus referred to himself as the “bread of life”?

Whether we believe the Resurrection took place Saturday, Sunday, or Monday, shouldn’t we speak of it as the apostles spoke of it, and teach the flock of Christ why Jesus is referred to as “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep”?

Next: The Chronology of Events

God bless.

revel

Revel
Mar 5th 2008, 02:14 PM
THE CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS AND THE YEAR OF THE CRUCIFIXION

SATURDAY SUNSET, NISAN 11 (SUNDAY) begins. It is known as PALM SUNDAY. Jesus enters Jerusalem on a colt, and returns to Bethany (Mark 11:1-11).

SUNDAY SUNSET, NISAN 12 (MONDAY) begins. Jesus curses a fig tree, and upon entering Jerusalem, he overturns the tables of the moneychangers, and then leaves the city (Mark 11:12-19).

MONDAY SUNSET, NISAN 13 (TUESDAY) begins, and “Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away” (Mark 14:1). (Mark is speaking of the high Sabbath, Unleavened Bread, when the Passover Feast is eaten; it is only two days away). Events on Nisan 13 include: Jesus confronting the religious authorities with parables, and speaking of his second coming. In addition, the religious authorities plotted against him. Jesus then returned to Bethany (Mark 11:20-33; 12:1-43; 13:1-35; 14:1-9).

TUESDAY SUNSET, NISAN 14 (WEDNESDAY) begins, and so does PREPARATION DAY/PASSOVER. THE LAST SUPPER takes place during the “late eve” hours of Preparation Day: (John 13:1, 2; 18:28; Mark 14:12, 16-18).

WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON, NISAN 14, PREPARATION DAY/PASSOVER continues: the CRUCIFIXION is on Preparation Day: (John 19:30, 31; Luke 23:53, 54; Mark 15:42, 43; Matt. 27:57-62). Christ gives up his spirit at the ninth hour (3 p.m.) in fulfillment of the Law, when the lambs are slain (Matt. 27:50; Ex. 12:1-6).

WEDNESDAY SUNSET: NISAN 15 (THURSDAY) begins and so does the FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD (which is also referred to as the “Passover Feast” when the Passover lambs were eaten: it is the high Sabbath). Christ is BURIED around sunset (Luke 23:53, 54). Time—marking the buried Messiah—begins. Christ will be in the “heart of the earth” for three days and three nights (Matt. 12:40, 16:4; Luke 11:29, 30; Jonah 1:17; Gen. 1:13).

THURSDAY SUNSET: NISAN 16 (FRIDAY) begins: The first day and night is complete. The women buy spices and prepare them (Luke 23:56; Mark 16:1).

FRIDAY SUNSET: NISAN 17 (SATURDAY) begins and so does the WEEKLY SABBATH. The women rest from their labors (Luke 23:56). The second day and night is complete.

SATURDAY SUNSET/THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK BEGINS: RESURRECTION: NISAN 18 (SUNDAY) begins and so does the FEAST OF FIRSTFRUITS. The third day and night is complete. The prophecy of the Messiah and the sign of Jonah are about to be fulfilled… and Christ is resurrected on the holy day of Firstfruits, Sunday (Lev. 23:9-11; Mark 16:9), and presents himself to the Father (John 20:17) as the firstfruits from the Earth in fulfillment of the Law. The “three days’ journey” (Exod. 3:18) of the Israelites (Nisan 15 to Nisan 18) foreshadowed the time Jesus would be in the “heart of the earth,” and the miracle at the Red Sea (Nisan 18) foreshadowed the miracle of the Resurrection (Nisan 18).

(For an expanded presentation on the prophetic holy days and how they speak about the first and second coming of Christ, I invite you to visit www.thetimeline.org and click on “Prophecy: The Seven Holy Days,” and to visit this site as well: www.hebroots.org.)

In what year did all the above events occur?

Scriptural and historical evidence speaks of one year: AD 30.

Exactly forty years after the Crucifixion, the Romans destroyed the temple and massacred the Israelites. How significant is the number “40” in the Bible? How many years did the Israelites wander in the wilderness? 40.

The parallel between Moses and Jesus is unmistakable: Just as God gave the Israelites exactly forty years to take him seriously after sending the first deliverer, Moses, God again gave the Israelites exactly forty years to take him seriously after sending the second deliverer, Jesus the Christ.

This is not a coincidence. It is the hand of God.

The physical events of the Old Testament (the holy days and the events surrounding them) foreshadowed the spiritual events of the New Testament (regarding the presence of the Messiah and what he would accomplish). The Law can only be fulfilled—never contradicted.

I invite you to visit the following site regarding “April in the year 30”:
www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/whenres.htm

Next: The Last Supper

God bless.

revel

Revel
Mar 5th 2008, 02:45 PM
THE LAST SUPPER

When did the Last Supper take place?

The prevailing belief is this: the Synoptic Gospels state the Last Supper was the actual Passover Feast, while John states the Last Supper was eaten the night before the Passover. In essence, our ancestors believed the Synoptic Gospels contradict John.

This “prevailing belief” is pure spiritual poison… In reality, there is no contradiction.

The Gospels tell a unified story—supplying different pieces of the same puzzle. Matthew, Mark, and Luke are in full agreement with John: the Gospel of John clearly states the Last Supper and the betrayal took place before the Passover Feast.

THE GOSPEL OF JOHN

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him; (John 13:1,2 KJV)

The record continues in John.

Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning [still Nisan 14], and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover [during the upcoming evening hours on Nisan 15]. (John 18:28)

The only reason the Jews did not enter the palace with Jesus is because they wanted to eat the Passover Feast—and the only reason why they did not yet eat the Passover lamb is because the lambs had not been slain, and the Passover Feast had not been eaten.

The testimony of John is that the Passover Feast (eating the lambs) had not yet taken place—and that the Last Supper had already taken place. The Last Supper was eaten on the “day of Preparation” (Nisan 14)—which is before the Passover Feast (Nisan 15).

SUNSET: Nisan 14 begins… It is the day of Preparation, and during the opening hours of this day, THE LAST SUPPER takes place… and soon thereafter, Christ is betrayed, and later led to the palace.

AFTERNOON: The following afternoon is still Nisan 14… Passover/Preparation Day… and at 3 p.m., the Hebrew authorities slay their lambs, and Christ, as the Lamb of God, gives up his Spirit. Nisan 14 is Preparation Day. Preparing for what? The high Sabbath, the Feast of Unleavened Bread…

Obviously, the labor of preparing for the Passover Feast had to begin prior to the Passover Feast. In essence, “preparations” for the Passover Feast are made on the “day of Preparation”: Nisan 14. John clearly stated that Jesus was crucified on “the day of Preparation” (John 19:31).

This “day of Preparation” began at the previous sunset, the evening prior to the Crucifixion—which is when the Last Supper took place.

SUNSET: Nisan 15 begins, and the PASSOVER FEAST begins on the high Sabbath of Unleavened Bread—and Christ is now in the burial tomb.

Why is it that some of our religious ancestors rejected this clear record of John, and chose rather to believe that the Synoptic Gospels tell a different story? There is a fundamental reason for this, and it is based on one (incorrect) assumption.

What is that assumption?

Next: THE LAST SUPPER: THE GOSPEL OF MARK

God bless.

revel

Studyin'2Show
Mar 5th 2008, 03:50 PM
Okay, I said I had been doing some additional study and had seen some things differently and though I still don't really have the time to present this as it should be, I feel I need to clarify what I meant. :blush:

I always thought Passover was a day; as in a 24 hour period. But in studying this out, I am seeing that it is not so much a date but rather a time. Let me explain what I mean. I may write, 'go by the office', on my calendar on a particular day. It would mean that any time I go, as long as it is on that day, I have successfully completed the task. But let's say I write, 'go by the office at 4pm'. That's more of an appointment. The more I read about 'the Passover' I see that it is not simply an all day event, but rather an appointment at a specific time. If I go by at 5pm I have failed my task. If I go by a 8am, I still have not yet completed the task or kept the appointment.

Twilight is not evening but rather the few hours before evening when though the sun is not prominent, its light is still visible. Thus, the Passover (appointment) was the time right near the end of Nisan 14, just preceding Nisan 15. So, the Passover was slaughtered a little before evening while still the 14th, and would be eaten during the Feast of Unleavened Bread as Nisan 15 was beginning. Therefore, the 'Passover' which was the lamb that was slain, was actually eaten on Nisan 15 (Unleavened Bread). So, the Preparation Day for the Passover WAS Nisan 14 up to the point when the Passover was killed. I had always assumed the Prep Day was Nisan 13 and then Nisan 14 at evening began a feast day 'called' Passover.

This study has given me a very different understanding of the Passion Week. I had thought the Preparation Day was Nisan 13. I was already pretty confident that He was not crucified on a Friday as tradition held but I leaned toward a Wednesday (Nisan 13) crucifixion. Now, I have to do some more study to see if the Thursday crucifixion is more likely. I am sure though that Yeshua was crucified on Nisan 14 at twilight as Israel was slaughtering the lambs in preparation for the feast. Why am I certain? Because God ALWAYS keeps His appointments.

Now, as I said, I'm beginning to think the Wednesday crucifixion has one problem that makes me think those in the Thursday camp are more accurate. If the Wednesday timeline you (and I previously) show is correct, considering the fact that Passover is an appointment, not a day (which was where I erred), there is good reason not to go to the tomb on the Hebrew 5th day of the week (our Wed eve to Thur eve) because that would have been a High Sabbath; Unleavened Bread. However, what reason would there be to not go to the tomb on the 6th day of the week (our Thur eve to Fri eve)? I can think of no reason that would have kept His followers away on that day seeing it was not a Sabbath day. This in no way is a problem for the probably 30 AD crucifixion year because there is much discrepancy as to when Nisan 14 was in that year due to differences in the Hebrew calendar. I've seen references to it being from Tuesday through Thursday in AD 30 due to which algorithm was used to come up with the possible date.

The bottom line for me will continue to not be so much which day of the week it was, though I do so enjoy the study, but rather which feast of the LORD it was. He was clearly the Passover Lamb, slain during the twilight of Nisan 14 so I just can not rationalize why our remembrance of this great sacrifice has been separated from the one day that we all surely can agree on...Passover! :dunno:

Teke
Mar 6th 2008, 11:12 PM
so I just can not rationalize why our remembrance of this great sacrifice has been separated from the one day that we all surely can agree on...Passover! :dunno:

Passover is the time they prepared to leave Egypt. The Resurrection is a feast that celebrates the end of that Passover. Passover is an act in action, while Resurrection is a completion of an action.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 7th 2008, 12:33 PM
Passover is the time they prepared to leave Egypt. The Resurrection is a feast that celebrates the end of that Passover. Passover is an act in action, while Resurrection is a completion of an action.Agreed. Which is why celebrating the resurrection this month, BEFORE Passover next month seems out of place, ya' know? :hmm:

Revel
Mar 7th 2008, 02:30 PM
Hello Studin'2Show,

Truly, I appreciate your interest...

On Preparation Day, Nisan 14, work had to be done to prepare for the high Sabbath, Nisan 15. This is exactly what God told Moses:

For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast [unleavened bread]. On the first day [Nisan 14, Preparation Day] remove the yeast from your houses. (Exod. 12:15)

Removing the yeast occurs the night before the Passover Feast. This time of preparation is actually the beginning of Nisan 14, but in Hebrew terminology, it can be referred to as the "night of the 13th."

Thanks for your last post.

The more we highlight the harmony of Scriptures the more we see the "tradition" in our own religion.

revel

Teke
Mar 7th 2008, 04:28 PM
Agreed. Which is why celebrating the resurrection this month, BEFORE Passover next month seems out of place, ya' know? :hmm:

Well now you see the difference between the old calendar and new calendar. The west, generally speaking, will celebrate according to the new calendar, whereas the eastern church which holds to the old calendar will celebrate next month. April 27th on the new calendar is the eastern feast of the Resurrection (which is a week after Passover on the new calendar).:)

Mograce2U
Mar 7th 2008, 07:18 PM
Passover is the time they prepared to leave Egypt. The Resurrection is a feast that celebrates the end of that Passover. Passover is an act in action, while Resurrection is a completion of an action.I think that is the most concise summary of what this thread is about. It explains why Passover was a feast which Israel was commanded to keep forever. And with the change in the law that came by Christ fulfilling it, we see the the Lord's Table is the most appropriate way to celebrate it, since in doing that we can celebrate the whole event: the cross and the resurrection!

That is why trying to fix a day/date will not be - nor has been, possible. Which provision the Lord made for us by lifting up the feast into a realm whereby we can celebrate it always & all days.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 7th 2008, 08:16 PM
I think that is the most concise summary of what this thread is about. It explains why Passover was a feast which Israel was commanded to keep forever. And with the change in the law that came by Christ fulfilling it, we see the the Lord's Table is the most appropriate way to celebrate it, since in doing that we can celebrate the whole event: the cross and the resurrection!

That is why trying to fix a day/date will not be - nor has been, possible. Which provision the Lord made for us by lifting up the feast into a realm whereby we can celebrate it always & all days.I see no problem with celebrating it all biblically as God did say these things would be observed FOREVER! :D The perceived difficulty many see, I don't see. Whatever day of the week doesn't matter. It's an interesting discussion but really, that's all. What is clear is that it was Passover when He was slain, Unleavened Bread when He was buried, and First Fruits when He arose! :pp This will be the fifth year my family and I will celebrate these things and we have been so blessed to experience the feasts He has ordained. Nope! No difficulty at all. ;)

God Bless!

Revel
Mar 11th 2008, 07:05 PM
I enjoyed the recent posts... thanks Teke for your summarizing statement!!

THE LAST SUPPER: THE GOSPELS OF MATTHEW AND MARK

Why is it that some of our religious ancestors rejected the clear record of John—that the Last Supper took place prior to the Passover Feast—and chose rather to believe that the Synoptic Gospels reveal the Last Supper was the actual Passover Feast? There is one fundamental reason for this, and it is based on one (incorrect) assumption.

What is that assumption?

The assumption is directly related to a misunderstanding of Hebrew terminology.

This entire holy time—in first century Hebrew culture—is referred to as the “days of Unleavened Bread (Acts 12:3).” The confusion revolves around this question: What is the “first day”? Nisan 14 (the “day of Preparation”)? Or Nisan 15 (the high Sabbath)?

The Synoptic Gospels reveal the Last Supper took place on the “first day”…

THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW

On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” (Matt. 26:17)

What day is this?

When the disciples asked about “preparations,” that is exactly what they meant: “preparations.” “Preparations” are conducted on the “day of Preparation.” “Preparations” include removing leaven from the home and slaying the lambs.

THE GOSPEL OF MARK

The Gospel of Mark reveals more information and makes the marking of time unmistakable:

On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb [Nisan 14], Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” (Mark 14:12)

According to the Law, the lambs were slain on Nisan 14. Mark is talking about Nisan 14, “when it is customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb”; this is Passover (which is also referred to as “the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread,” and the “day of Preparation”).

To believe that it is not customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb on Nisan 14 is to disbelieve the Torah: “Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight [Hebrew: 3 p.m.]” (Ex. 12:6).Hence, here in Mark, Hebrew custom is referring to Nisan 14, when work is done to slay the lambs. Thus, the question posed by the apostles was asked during the opening hours of Nisan 14.

In essence…

SUNSET: NISAN 14 begins, and the apostles ask, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

The following events in Mark will continue to unfold on this “first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread”:

And his disciples went forth, and came into the city [on Nisan 14], and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the Passover [on Nisan 14]. And in the evening [on Nisan 14] he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. (Mark 14:16-18 KJV)

“n the evening” is referring to the same day: “the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.” The Greek word for “evening” is [i]“opsios” and this means, “later eve” (Strong’s Concordance, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 53). Christ arrived “later eve”—later in the same evening—during the dark hours on Nisan 14 (not the next evening).

The events that follow will continue to unfold during the hours on Nisan 14, including:

It was the third hour [Nisan 14] when they crucified him. (Mark 15:25)

Following all this, Mark then makes this statement about time:

It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. (Mark 15:42, 43)

It is still “Preparation Day [Nisan 14].” It is the “day of Preparation (John 19:31).” It is still “the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.” It is still “the day before the Sabbath [Nisan 15].”

The testimony from Mark is that all the events stated between Mark 14:12 and 15:47, including the Last Supper/Gethsemane/arrest/Peter’s denials and Pilate’s decision all occurred on “first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb,” which is also referred to as “Passover” and “Preparation Day,” Nisan 14. This is in full agreement with John.

Note: “The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread” is not the high Sabbath—but is reserved for “preparations” (Nisan 14). The “Feast of Unleavened Bread” is the actual high Sabbath (Nisan 15). The incorrect assumption is to assume “The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread” is the actual high Sabbath.

The Synoptic Gospels are in agreement with John: the Last Supper took place the same evening he was seized: the “first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb [Nisan 14].”

Next: The Last Supper: The Gospel Luke

God bless.

revel

Revel
Mar 11th 2008, 07:17 PM
THE LAST SUPPER: THE GOSPEL OF LUKE

Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed [Nisan 14]. Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.” (Luke 22:7)

The Gospel of Mark adds “the first day”:

On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb [Nisan 14], Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” (Mark 14:12)

Back to Luke…

When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” (Luke 22:14-16)

This is still the time of “preparations.” What is significant about this “first day”? This very night of “preparations” marks the Hebrew memorial: removing leaven from the home.

During the Last Supper, our Lord took this one step further and removed the entire memorial… and instituted a new memorial (Luke 22:17-20). In essence, hundreds of years later—on “the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread,” while the Hebrews were removing the leaven, Christ changed the memorial (first given by Moses).

Christ instituted the new memorial (the wine and bread) on the very night the Hebrews were carrying out their own memorial of removing the leaven, and the following afternoon, Jesus gave up his Spirit at the very time the Hebrews were slaying their lambs.

The New Covenant, spoken of by Jesus during the Last Supper, became reality when the Lamb of God bled on the Cross as “Christ our Passover [Lamb]” in fulfillment of the Law.

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. . . . In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Heb. 9:15, 22)

The words of our Lord in the Gospel of Luke (22:17) cannot refer to the actual Passover Feast (Nisan 15), but the upcoming Passover Feast associated with the “preparations.” The Last Supper was Christ’s own memorial supper, introducing the new memorial—which reflects the significance of “Christ our Passover.”

Next: The Feast of Weeks (Pentecost): The Final Feast of the Passover
Season

God bless.

revel

Revel
Mar 12th 2008, 04:58 PM
JESUS THE HIGH PRIEST AND THE STORY OF MARY

Why couldn’t Mary hold Jesus at the sepulchre on Resurrection Sunday?

Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father.” (John 20:16, 17)

The answer is found in the Law and pertains to the priestly responsibility that must be carried out on the holy day of Firstfruits. The reason that Mary could not hold Jesus is because he, as the high priest, had “not yet returned to the Father” to present himself on that holy day (as the firstfruits from the Earth).

Why was Mary at the tomb anyway? Mary had returned to anoint Jesus’ body. If we follow this story of Mary, we follow the Crucifixion (Nisan 14) to the Resurrection (Nisan 18).

Firstly, the story of the “spices” began when the Sabbath, the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15), was over:

When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. (Mark 16:1)

When the high Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) was over, “Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices.” Since business cannot be transacted on the Sabbath, this purchase had to take place the following day: Nisan 16.

The Gospel of Luke provides us with the unfolding story of Mary. It begins with the day of the Crucifixion.

Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. It was Preparation Day [Passover, Nisan 14], and the Sabbath was about to begin [Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15]. The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared [purchased] spices and perfumes [Nisan 16]. But they rested on the [weekly] Sabbath [Nisan 17] in obedience to the commandment. On the first day of the week [Sunday, Nisan 18], very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. (Luke 23:53-56; 24:1)

Next: The Feast of Weeks (Pentecost)

God bless.

revel

Revel
Mar 12th 2008, 05:08 PM
THE FEAST OF WEEKS (PENTECOST)

In the days of Moses, God established the land bridge to freedom that enabled the Israelites to journey forward toward the Promised Land. Along the way, they reached the wilderness of Sinai and camped by its holy mountain. Exactly fifty days after the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, God met with them at Mount Sinai.

[T]here was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently, and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him. (Exod. 19:16–19)

This descent of God on Mount Sinai “in fire” foreshadowed the descent of the Holy Spirit—the sign of which was “tongues of fire” (Acts 2:3). As God communed with his people on Mount Sinai fifty days after his divine intervention at the Red Sea, so God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within the disciples fifty days after his divine intervention at the sepulchre.

The holy day that commemorates this time is the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost). This is the revelation that God gave Moses:

Count off seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the standing grain. Then celebrate the Feast of Weeks to the Lord your God by giving a freewill offering in proportion to the blessings the Lord your God has given you. (Deut. 16:9, 10)

From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the Lord. (Lev. 23:15, 16)

Time marked in Old Testament times foreshadowed time marked in New Testament times. The first coming of Christ witnessed the fulfillment of numerous prophecies—all of which came to pass on time, exactly as God foretold in the Old Testament. The personal presence of the Messiah marks the fulfillment of all that God set in motion through Moses—and this becomes a personal reality when we make Jesus our Lord and believe in the Resurrection.

Next: Looking back and forward

God bless.

revel

Studyin'2Show
Mar 12th 2008, 05:52 PM
Revel,

You may get more response to each of your points in what seems to be a Bible Study, would be to post a new thread for each one. ;)

Revel
Mar 12th 2008, 07:19 PM
Thanks Studin'2Show.

I have appreciated your thoughts all the way through this thread.

I agree with your position... especially with regard to the Feast of Weeks.

This feast could take on a life of its own since we are addressing something so personal and controversial as "tongues of fire" and "speaking in tongues."

For now, however, my intention is to share the harmony between the Old and New Testaments on this glorious time of the Resurrection season.

I have one more planned post for this thread.

God bless your big heart and enjoy this year's celebration!

revel

Revel
Mar 14th 2008, 01:55 PM
Hello everyone,

Has anyone ever asked you, “Why is Jesus referred to as the Lamb of God”?

I received this question from a God-fearing woman who was raised in the Protestant church.

My input on this thread is dedicated to her.

The “heart” of my input is the biblical significance of biblical terms associated with our Lord, including, “Christ our Passover” (1 Cor. 5:7).

Looking back, some of our religious ancestors knew more about the Easter Bunny than the Passover lamb. This is tragic.

Repeating man-made terms to describe the greatest story of all time, holds no interest... and looking forward to the descent of our Lord reveals a passion to tell the truth about why Jesus is referred to as the “Lamb of God,” and why he is “Christ our Passover” (1 Cor. 5:7), and why he is the “bread of life” (John 6:35), and why he is “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:20).

To everyone following this: Let our fellowship be founded on this reality:
biblical terms that apply to our Lord…
and their personal significance to us.
Certainly, we can find common ground here.

God bless you all and have an inspirational Resurrection season!

revel