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moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:01 AM
Rather then engaging in a debate about our different views on the end times, I thought I would try a different approach. I had spent countless hours doing the debate thing on here and I can't really say I swayed anyone's views. I am too the point now I guess, that I don't really care if someone has a different end times view then I do. I have held the pre-trib rapture view most of my life because that was what I was taught growing up..nearly all the churches I went too held this view. Then later after dealing with some truly rude people on here that held a different view and arguing with them about it...something got through to me...inspite of their rudeness (they are gone now)...and I began realizing how I wasn't 'seeing' some things in some verses because they didn't fit my view. So I began studying their viewpoint which was we would go through the tribulation...that the 'rapture' came at the end of it all...that view didn't hold water for me for very long though but I kept studying until I found something that really seem to fit the scriptures and it was earth shattering for me. Astounding actually...amazing..eye opening, one of those things that knocks you for a loop!

Its also not a popular view either. Which is fine and I won't say I know it all by any means yet and I also know as I learn more my view might change again and you know what...that is ok too!

I figure if we all are raptured before anything happens...what do I have to worry about anyway? If we are to flee Judea...well I don't live there, so I guess I wouldn't need to flee. Nothing is said about storing up food or anything like that...only to watch for the Lord's return which I do. I just tell God my little mind cannot understand it all but I know He will take care of me. And I know He will. If there is something I need to do and know..He will be sure to communicate it! I have to trust Him on this because I really cannot figure it all out myself. So I just rest in Him.

My current view, which I strongly believe is right of course...;), has cost me in more ways then one though. Not being a pre-trib rapture believer and going to a church that believes that...well I didn't exactly fit in and during a bible study on Revelation the pastor said any apostate church holding other views was heretical. And he knew full well one of those views was mine.:cry: Part of the problem was he was under the impression all these other end times views believed Jesus was not going to bodily return at all. Where he got this information..I don't know but no view says that. Anyway he as much slapped a label on me calling me an apostate ...:( I no longer go there...that wasn't the only reason by any means...many other things before this took place.

Plus everyone is my family is pre-trib rapture too so I just don't say too much about my views at all. First I don't think they understand what I am talking about when I have tried to explain it and second, I really don't want to risk any kind of division among us over something like this. I do not see it as a salvation issue.

I know it gets really intense on this board because people feel so strongly about their views but I am wondering if we can have one thread where we don't try to convince anyone our view is right, but simply explain first, why we believe like we do...what influenced you...and why are your feelings so strong about this subject. For me, it pains me to see people that hold a view that causes them fear or anxiety. The return of Our Lord should be joyful...but most views focus on the bad things that will happen before He returns. So yea sometimes I butt in and say something because it just bugs the daylights out of me to see this happening. I strongly feel if we keep our focus ON Christ..no matter what our views our, their won't be any fear, or dread, or anxiety.

I have very strong feeling about my views like many on here do...but no longer to the point I feel I need to try to make others see it. I really wish they would get it..and fully understand it...then say..'ok now I understand what you are saying but I don't agree'. I would take that over the just trying to prove each other wrong thing that goes on. I would be delighted actually if someone understood this view! But I really feel like only those that already hold this view understand it. And everyone else doesn't understand it. I am probably way wrong on this..its just how others present themselves to my posts that makes me think they aren't understanding it.

Anyway I hope I didn't offend anyone or anything..I am just really curious about this. And no this may or may not qualify as an 'end times' subject...but if I posted it elsewhere, those on the end times forums may never see it!

So can we just talk for a change..and just get to know each other a little better.. before we suddenly meet in Heaven going...'oh! I know you...well I know your debates!' lol. I think finding out who we are behind the user names after we get to Heaven would not be a good thing you know...especially since we are commanded to love each other...most of us on the end times have no clue who we are talking too on the other side of this cyber world and I have been gone for awhile and there are alot of new people on here I don't know.

God bless

ServantoftheKing
Feb 22nd 2008, 05:07 AM
Moonglow,

Like you, I grew up hearing nothing but the pre-trib viewpoint, i.e. the rapture occurs first, then a 7-year tribulation during which the seals are opened, then the trumpets sound, then the vials are poured out finally culminating at the battle of Armageddon. Recently, several things were brought to my attention that shook me away from this viewpoint.

1. There is no verse in Scripture that confines the Seals and Trumpets to the tribulation. I realized here that my assumptions had me looking to the future for all of these events. Another topic for another thread, but I do believe several of the seals may be open and several of the trumpets have already sounded.

2. It was brought to my attention that the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial are all describing the same event: the battle of Armageddon. Therefore, the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are not occuring sequentially (Seals, then Trumpets, then Vials), but rather they are counting down to the same event.

3. Once I understood these first two things, Jesus words in Matthew 24:29-31 make it clear that after the tribulation the battle of Armageddon takes place and it as at that time a trumpet call is used to gather the elect.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling in verse 29 is a reference to the 6th Seal (the battle of Armageddon). Jesus said it was at that time that the elect are gathered with a trumpet call. Which trumpet sounds at the same time the 6th Seal is opened? It is the 7th Trumpet.

Learning these things, and being convinced of their Scriptural truth, is why I believe that the rapture is a post-tribulation event. Good thread.

ServantoftheKing

brakelite
Feb 22nd 2008, 10:07 AM
I spent the first 15 years of my Christian life in the 'pre-trib' camp. Hal Lindsay's 'Late Great Planet Earth' was my second bible. So the 7 year trib thing and all that goes with it was my view also. However, not because I had personally studied it and come to a conclusion, but I simply surrendered to the populist view. I knew there were gaps in Lindsay's theories, but I put that down to my own lack of understanding and bowed to his (and my pastors) experience. My Christian walk overall was inconsistent and unsatisfying, and I ended up falling away altogether.

Eight or so years later, a failing marriage, adult children unsaved and in the world, prompted my earnestly seeking God's forgiveness for my unfaithfulness and asking for help.
The first thing I asked for though was truth. I wanted the gaps filled in my spiritual understanding of the scriptures and I wanted my future walk with Him to be consistent and solidly grounded on scripture and not on man's understanding of scripture.

Today, 10 years later, my marriage is more solid than it was at any other time. 5 of my 6 children are baptised and the 6th doing pre-baptism studies.
My walk since then has never wavered. And as a result of what I believe to be God's leading I am now a 'post-tribber'. And also I concur with the previous comments on the seals, trumpets etc.
One more thought on armageddon. I believe that this is a war, not between nations, but between faiths. Primarily, between the faith of Christ and the rest of the world. Included in the world is Islam, Buddhism, Catholicism, agnostic, new age etc all united against a common enemy. The true children of the Most High. This is the ultimate climax of the ages just before the return of Jesus. Satan's last ditch attempt to destroy God's people.

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Regards
Brakelite

brakelite
Feb 22nd 2008, 10:14 AM
Oh yeah, Moonglow. 23000 posts!!!!!???????????????:o!

markdrums
Feb 22nd 2008, 10:32 AM
I'm also is the same company as the first few posts!!

I grew up in a church where the pre-trib rapture was taught. With a literal 1000 year earthy reign during a "semi-golden age", and animal sacrifices would be reinstituted......
And....Us, in our glorified bodies, would be living in a world where sin STILL exists? People are STILL dying "outside of us"? Non-believers get yet ANOTHER chance for salvation???
etc...... :confused


What's more, the Hal Lindsey, Jerry Jenkins, Tim LaHaye model of eschatology had too many gaps & hyper-literally forced interpretations, but yet seemed to MISS obvious things that SHOULD be easily understood as literal...

Example: Revelation. Written by John, TO the seven churches in Asia.
To show things that must SOON take place.....

Call me crazy, but it sounds like John was writng to the seven churches in Asia, to tell them about things that would soon take place...
Not, writing to me, 2000 years later.
For some reason, I get the impression that 2000 years is quite a bit of time.
;)

I DO believe there's a rapture, but it comes on the LAST day. When EVERYONE is called.

And NO, THAT hasn't happened yet! (just in case someone wonders)

So, there you go. That's what I believe, & the reasons why.

God bless you all my friends!!
-Mark

Roelof
Feb 22nd 2008, 11:22 AM
I grew up in the Dutch Reformed (NGK) where the Rapture was not taught, only the second coming of Christ.

After intensive studies of the Bible and Study Bibles, I started to believe that there will be a Rapture.

At the moment I believe that the most important thing for Christians are to be ready for the return of Christ at any day.

Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes. (Mat 24:42)


My personal opinion is that the Rapture will be before the Tribulation, but I must mention that it is nowhere written in rock.


and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.


:pp:pp:pp

dworthington
Feb 22nd 2008, 11:40 AM
The most important thing is our relationship to and in Jesus. I am pre-trib, but so what It's Jesus I'm looking for. Regardless of our view of end times, today is another day closer.

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:25 PM
To be perfectly honest, I came to my current end times belief by applying in faith James 1:5-6 . . .



James 1:5-6
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.


I was taught to believe a certain viewpoint from the time I had been saved, and I never really questioned it too much. However, when I really began to dive in the Scriptures there were some questions that arose that just didn't add up to me. It just didn't sit well. Finally, like a light bulb, it just occurred to me. I said to myself, "God has promised that if I lack wisdom that He would give it to me if I'd only ask in faith with no doubting."

I'm telling you the truth, as soon as I prayed and asked God to show me His truth and give me wisdom on this issue, it was instantaneous and He took me exactly where I needed to go and enlightened me at that very moment about the truth of His coming. I was more blessed by the fact that God was firm to His Word and did exactly as He said He would do in James 1:5-6 than I was about actually receiving revelation of the truth about His coming. It was an awesome experience, and I'm thankful that He has given me peace about this issue.

slightlypuzzled
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:36 PM
Oh yeah, Moonglow. 23000 posts!!!!!???????????????:o!

Yeah...and most are longish posts, not short one liners....:D

I came to my views largely by observing how OT prophesies were taken out of context to talk about later times and things..it just did not sit well with my view of contextual interpretation of the scriptures.

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2008, 02:47 PM
Yep, one thing that I have learned about this pre/post-trib topic... it has nothing to do with my understanding of salvation so I really don't argue (anymore) about it. People are gonna have opinion based on their interpretation of scripture and one day, one of two things will happen.

1. Those saved will be pre-raptured whether they are pre or post rapture believers (Pre-tribbers can collect their bets, hahaha).. or

2. We will endure the tribulation period and then all those save will be raptured. At least if this happens then the pre-trib believers will know they got it wrong. (Post-tribbers can collect their bets, hahaha)

I still will ask questions about this and when I read way out there opinions I'll question it.

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 03:52 PM
Moonglow,

Like you, I grew up hearing nothing but the pre-trib viewpoint, i.e. the rapture occurs first, then a 7-year tribulation during which the seals are opened, then the trumpets sound, then the vials are poured out finally culminating at the battle of Armageddon. Recently, several things were brought to my attention that shook me away from this viewpoint.


ServantoftheKing

I cut out most of your post so I could narrow in on this part...

When you said recently several things were brought to your attention...where and when did this happen? Was it a bible study at a church, here on the board reading a posts or through your own private studies? Just curious. As Mikey0 said it appears that most on here are pretty set in their view points so I was just wondering. thanks.

God bless

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:05 PM
Oh yeah, Moonglow. 23000 posts!!!!!???????????????:o!

Yea I know..I am pathic...:cool: I joined this board a few months after it opened in 02 and being disabled I spend alot of time on here. First it was because I was 'dying of thirst' to know the Word of God...getting that instance feed back helped me greatly in learning about the bible. I wasn't able to go to church bible studies too often due to my son (another story there)...was lucky to even get to church services on Sundays! I was raised on KJV but with my dyslexia it just made it so hard to read and understand. I finally got an easier to understand bible but I really needed help. The first board I tried some terrible fighting was going on there and I was learning nothing so searched around and found this one. I found out probably for the first time in my life that learning could be not only fulfilling but fun! Growing up with a learning disability and having the experience of school being the next step to hell...I never considered learning something new as anything but mind torture. They didn't know about LD's when I was younger and I wasn't tested until I was a senior in high school...a bit too late to really help me.

So this board was my 'found pearl', for a long time.

Then I would say I also just spend way too much time on here...not to the point my son was starving or the house was falling apart or anything that extreme, but I made it (after God, and my son) the center of my life and that really was not a good thing. I got very attached to the people on here. Anyway so yea I typed ALOT ...I type fast too! :lol: what can I say...:rolleyes:

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:09 PM
I'm also is the same company as the first few posts!!

I grew up in a church where the pre-trib rapture was taught. With a literal 1000 year earthy reign during a "semi-golden age", and animal sacrifices would be reinstituted......
And....Us, in our glorified bodies, would be living in a world where sin STILL exists? People are STILL dying "outside of us"? Non-believers get yet ANOTHER chance for salvation???
etc...... :confused


What's more, the Hal Lindsey, Jerry Jenkins, Tim LaHaye model of eschatology had too many gaps & hyper-literally forced interpretations, but yet seemed to MISS obvious things that SHOULD be easily understood as literal...

Example: Revelation. Written by John, TO the seven churches in Asia.
To show things that must SOON take place.....

Call me crazy, but it sounds like John was writng to the seven churches in Asia, to tell them about things that would soon take place...
Not, writing to me, 2000 years later.
For some reason, I get the impression that 2000 years is quite a bit of time.
;)

I DO believe there's a rapture, but it comes on the LAST day. When EVERYONE is called.

And NO, THAT hasn't happened yet! (just in case someone wonders)

So, there you go. That's what I believe, & the reasons why.

God bless you all my friends!!
-Mark

Ok but what caused you to question your first views? Were you studying with someone that brought this to your attention or what? Just wondering Oh yea I know Hal Linsey well and the Great Late Planet Earth...my sister and I went to see that movie in theaters many years ago too in fact!

God bless

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:24 PM
I used to believe the most common end times teaching (I think). Used to believe that an antichrist would rise to power and make a deal with Isreal for 7 years. After 3.5 yrs the deal is broken and eventually Armageddon. But just before the antichrist rise to power would be the rapture.

Now after much better spiritual eyes I understand that the bible and especially Revelation is parabolic by nature. I believe the antichrist is another name for Satan himself. I believe that he will rule over all corporate churches and not over literal nations. Not a physical manifestation but spiritually rule. No bodily dictator for all to see. I believe the 7 yrs spoken of is symbolic because 7 many times means completeness in the bible. I believe that we are in the Great Tribulation now and that the nature of this tribulation is spiritual in nature and not physical. I believe the PHYSICAL evidence of this tribulation is the falling away from the TRUE GOSPEL for the do-it-yourself gospels prevalent in the world today. I believe that the end of time will be just a few yrs away. So soon that the odds of everyone you know still being here when it happens is greatly in your favor. I believe the rapture of the elect will take place and then a brief time of hell on earth so to speak for all that are left. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when the "church going folk" are left behind because they were never saved. Then total destruction of everything when Christ comes again.

Hey..I bolded one part of your post...it made me think of an email conversation I had with Ann Rice....yes the former horror book novelist. Many years I ago I used to read those types of books....long story but I no longer do. Anyway Ann has gone back to her former Christian roots. She apparently was raised Catholic...though does not agree with all their views on everything. She wrote a new book titled "Christ the Lord" a fictional novel of Jesus as a child. It was quite interesting. She was suppose to be writing a series of them. This was about two years ago I contacted her through email as on her website she invited people to do so while she was touring the country promoting her book. She was getting alot of grief from her horror fans for converting to Christianity and moving away from horror book writing but she was getting alot of email support from Christians and even from the Jews!

I have saved those email exchanges but don't think it would be proper to copy hers onto a public board without her permission. But I will say she said something similar as you posted...that she believes we are already in the tribulation. That really puzzled me too! I hadn't even considered such a thing...still not sure what to think about it actually. Just thought I would share that with you.

God bless

menJesus
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:28 PM
I grew up believing in a pre-tribulation rapture. Now on this board I have seen some good debate as to mid-trib and post-trib, as well as pre-trib.

But the older I get, and the more I see, the harder I pray for a PRE-TRIB rapture!

Just in case I am right in what I believe. ;)

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:39 PM
I grew up believing in a pre-tribulation rapture. Now on this board I have seen some good debate as to mid-trib and post-trib, as well as pre-trib.

But the older I get, and the more I see, the harder I pray for a PRE-TRIB rapture!

Just in case I am right in what I believe. ;)

Well I will tell you what it wouldn't bother me one bit if it was true and we were raptured out of here...lol. I mean I certainly wouldn't complain about it!

Image being raptured and on the way up going..."but Lord...this doesn't fit my view!" What are you going to tell Him...put me back? :rofl:

markdrums
Feb 22nd 2008, 04:39 PM
Ok but what caused you to question your first views? Were you studying with someone that brought this to your attention or what? Just wondering Oh yea I know Hal Linsey well and the Great Late Planet Earth...my sister and I went to see that movie in theaters many years ago too in fact!

God bless


Yeah, I guess I didn't explain how I came to the understanding that I have...

I was always confused by what I was originally taught about the rapture & end times. Some days I thought I "got it".. then other days, it didn't make sense again.
And the more I studied, the more confused I became.

Then I heard something about Nero being the "Beast / AntiChrist" of Revelation. I was skeptical at first, because it's not what I grew up with in church. But, even with skepticism, I decided to investigate.

So, after really praying honestly & openly for better understanding I ast down & read again. This time, without a biased, pre-conceived notion.
Between reading the scriptures in a fresh light, & learning more history about Nero, and the Roman empire things started to click.

Also, during that time I learned more about HOW to read scripture, by understanding the Old Testament language used.
All the metaphors started making sense, & I was able to see the paralells of events, as well as understanding the meaning of "types & shadows".
This was a whole new experience, & the words of the Bible really came to life for me!

When I read Revelation again with a better understanding of the apocalyptic language being used, rather than thinking "everything must be taken in a strictly literal meaning whenever possible", I found the answers to my questions.

Knowing WHAT is to be taken "literally" & WHEN, makes a HUGE difference.
Things made morse sense. Not JUST in Revelation, but in the Bible as a whole.

:D

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 05:05 PM
The most important thing is our relationship to and in Jesus. I am pre-trib, but so what It's Jesus I'm looking for. Regardless of our view of end times, today is another day closer.

Amen. And so true! Regardless of anyone's views...everyday is a day closer. :)


Mikey0

This has to be the best thread I read here in my relatively short time on this forum. I can't find anything I disagree with you on. What amazes me the most is what you mentioned throughout your post. That you actually changed your mind BECAUSE of other peoples views. Not directly but it made you check it out for yourself and came to your own conclusion. Amazing.

Most people from my own experience are dead set in their ways. Not only on end time subjects but every subject in the bible. They believe what they are taught or whatever makes them feel good and no amount of biblical evidence can tell them otherwise. If people will just let go long enough to at the very least check out (like you did) what other people are trying to teach them then it would be so much easier. But the blinders are on most people because most people think THEY have truth. It's so very sad to see people not want to give truth a chance.

In the end though it's not for us to try to beat the truth into their skulls. It's up to God to open their spiritual eyes. Without God they will never understand much of the bible. Personally I don't take it personal. I give what I think is truth and let God do the rest. If someone doesn't listen or argues tooth and nail, I just let it roll of the shoulder.

However I always try to check out other peoples view if it's a new concept
. Only a fool would blindly believe or not believe someone just because their view is a different one. Check it out. No matter how unusual it sounds, CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF as you did.

Like I said, I feel the same about trying to convince people of my views. I just have to make extra sure I'm right. I have to make sure every verse someone comes to me with, I have an answer to. If I don't, then I have to rethink my doctrine I'm teaching on.

Oh by the way, I'm a post tribulation rapture guy myself. I find nowhere where it clearly says the elect won't be here for the trib



I will tell you I have changed my views on many things on here..but when I first got here I didn't have too many 'views' actually...:lol: Other then the pre-trib rapture ...I really didn't understand the bible enough to have 'views'....I didn't even know there were so many different views out there! Everything from how to be baptized, to what age, to OSAS, to which translation is the best and on and on and on. I got kind of irritated with it actually...it seemed never ending...all these views on this part of the bible and that part and it drove me batty for awhile. So I would read the arguments on each side and then 'take a side' and do the debates on it and so forth. And then change my mind again, in light of some scripture!

I won't say the debates are bad as long as people don't get personal with them..I know I learned alot. I would take a 'side' (sometimes I would take it not because I thought it was right but to see if it could hold up or not) in light of other scriptures. If someone poked holes in it then I would know it needed to be either let go or re-examined closer as you said.

I thinkI am pretty settled on most of these now...I am not one of those that falls for every new teaching the bible warns us about not doing...but early on I was biblically speaking, a child...just learning.

Ephesians 4

11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip Godís people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of Godís Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

14 Then we will no longer be immature like children. We wonít be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth. 15 Instead, we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church. 16 He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.

I think we need to realize being too set in our ways can be harmful to ourselves because we aren't learning anything new. The bible does tell us one of the evidences we are children of God, is we are still growing in our faith, still learning. How can our faith grow if we aren't learning anything new? Yet of course there has to be a balance where we are on solid ground on the message of salvation...on the basics of the bible (which I think most are on here...all of us believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins and rose on the third day and is now seated on the right hand side of God the Father) We will always agree on this and it is what brings us together. Any teaching that takes us away from this core message is dangerous of course. We need to be open to corrections in our views..open to the lessons God has to teach us....but not 'swayed' by every little thing that comes along either. There is a balance there for sure.

God bless

menJesus
Feb 22nd 2008, 05:45 PM
Nope! For once in my life, I would stay SILENT! Aside from saying. Thank You, Jesus! :)

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 06:27 PM
Nope! For once in my life, I would stay SILENT! Aside from saying. Thank You, Jesus! :)


Yea, my thoughts exactly...:lol:

Diggindeeper
Feb 22nd 2008, 06:34 PM
I just want you to know, Moonglow, that I have seen this thread but gotta get ready and go to work. I will be back tonight, after work and after I eat, which I always do after work.

I KNOW and am fully persuaded in what I believe. Most on here know my stand, although I admit that I don't get into long debates about my beliefs. Well, I get into the debates, but will post briefly some scriptures (and actually, I could post many more scriptures than I usually do!) but I don't go on and on, because I try to stay with whatever aspect is being discussed at the moment. I know the Holy Spirit uses scriptures and it is He who convinces others. Not me or what I say.

But I WILL be back tonight! Looking forward to reading other comments in this thread!

ShirleyFord
Feb 22nd 2008, 07:03 PM
Moonglow,

Good thread and welcome back. So good seeing you again. :)

I wrote the following several years ago and I have shared it here several times over the last couple of years I have been here, either in its entirety or just snippets of it.

I'm posting just part of here now:


I was very limited in my knowledge of the endtimes until around 1970, about 3 or 4 years after God so mercifully saved me. Never heard of any kind of tribs or mills before then. About all I knew was that we had better be ready because Jesus was coming back soon. Those who were not ready would be left behind to face Armeggeddon when God would punish them for their sins until their blood would flow up to the horses bridles.

Therefore, Mama taught me that reading the Bible and praying just before going to sleep at night in order to be ready should the Lord come back during the middle of the night while I was still asleep. I continued that practice after I was married, sometimes reading the Bible several times during the day also, to make absolutely sure that I was ready. I sure wanted to go to Heaven and live forever with Jesus. The thoughts of Heaven was about the only bright spot in my life as a child (especially after I had polio at the age of 8 that crippled me until the Lord miraculously healed me instantly in 1973), until I met my husband when I was 17. Armeggeddon, whatever that was, sure sounded like an awful place to me and was certainly something that I wanted no part of.

I can still remember those Sunday afternoons after Church growing up in the early '40s before we had electricity. After Sunday dinner, Mama would tune in to Charles E. Fuller's "Old Time Revival Hour," on our battery operated radio to hear his message on Revelation and Armageddon. He had a way of driving his points home with his many colorful illustrations of that end-time battle. His messages Sunday after Sunday for years really made me strive harder and harder to escape that horrible event by being ready for the Lord to take me Home with Him.

So I was definitely pretrib when I first heard of premillennium around 1970, or thereabouts. I believed in the Rapture of the Church before (what I had learned by then to be) the Great Tribulation. But no one ever mentioned that this view was a pretrib view or any kind of view, probably because there was no other such view being preached or taught in my neck of the woods that I had ever heard. In fact, I can never remember hearing any of my pastors preach one sermon on the endtimes in the two Southern Baptist Churches that I had been a member of up to the '70s at any time during my first thirty years of life. Besides Dr. Fuller, Billy Graham and Harold B. Sightler (aired a 30 minute radio program Monday - Friday at 10:30 AM from Greenville, SC in the '50s), and of course my precious Mama, had been my only endtime sources.

Fast-foward to the '90s when all the craze in the secular and well as in the christian world was the first Iragi war and Y2K.. The decade began with Desert Storm under the 1st Bush White House. It was hard for me to keep up with the constant breaking news several times a day which the top prophecy teachers said was the actual unfolding of prophecy being fulfilled right before our eyes. I was sitting in church on the Wednesday night that Saddam Hussein fired the first Scud Missle at Israel and it hit there.

My pastor had told us that if and when a Scud Missle hit Israel, it would be the beginning of World War 111 as predicted in the Bible. So the Rapture would take place just before or just as the war was beginning. His wife was delayed at home for the first half of the service. But service came to a screeching halt when she rushed through the doors just about thirty minutes before the service was over and shouted, "CNN is reporting that Israel has just been hit with a Scud Missle." With that, the regular service stopped. Panic hit the place. People were screaming, running, some laughing but more were crying, as they were rushing through the doors to get home before Jesus came and swept them all away. You would have thought that the Scud Missle had hit the church.

I sat there in total awe and silence as I watched such crazyness going on until the pastor suddenly noticed that I was still sitting in the sanctuary all alone just as he was cutting off the last of the lights. He was beside himself as he escorted me out of the church to my car in the parking lot. He said, "Sister Shirley, if the Lord doesn't come tonight, I'm calling the school first thing in the morning and give up my job as band director there." And he did. That Wednesday night was just the beginning of the total bizarre madness that would follow throughout the rest of the decade of the nineties with the many predictions of Y2K..

In the early morning hours on January 1st of 1999, I made a promise to God. I would no longer be satisfied to just sit by and just swallow everything that was coming down the pike. I was determined to begin that very day to begin an indepth search of the endtimes. I would not stop until He showed me in His Word the absolute truth concerning my endtime views. Many times during that decade I had felt the same urgings to do this. But each time I brushed them off because I was too busy....too busy trying to keep up with the latest breaking news from Pat Robertson, Hal Lindsey and other prophecy teachers television programs on TBN, Hal Linsey's weekly call-in radio program on Saturday afternoons. Marlin Maddox's daily two-hour radio program, along with CNN and C-Span. But I turned them all off that January morning.

My search didn't end though on December 31, 1999. It continued just as dilengtly for the next three years until I learned from a message board in 2002 that my Rapture position had been pretrib up until 1999. But now my Rapture position was post-trib. I also learned that I was premil, the first time I had heard that view labled before. The Lord was able to further open my eyes concerning the post tribulation Rapture and I learned so much more about it from the Scriptures as dedicated Christians there shared the Scriptures with me.


Shirley

John146
Feb 22nd 2008, 08:39 PM
Oh yeah, Moonglow. 23000 posts!!!!!???????????????:o!

She wasn't kidding when she said "I had spent countless hours doing the debate thing on here". :D

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 09:11 PM
I just want you to know, Moonglow, that I have seen this thread but gotta get ready and go to work. I will be back tonight, after work and after I eat, which I always do after work.

I KNOW and am fully persuaded in what I believe. Most on here know my stand, although I admit that I don't get into long debates about my beliefs. Well, I get into the debates, but will post briefly some scriptures (and actually, I could post many more scriptures than I usually do!) but I don't go on and on, because I try to stay with whatever aspect is being discussed at the moment. I know the Holy Spirit uses scriptures and it is He who convinces others. Not me or what I say.

But I WILL be back tonight! Looking forward to reading other comments in this thread!

Ok good! I just want to know mostly on here why people believe what they believe and how they came to their current understanding on things. Rather then the normal discussions/debates on here...I am just really curious what made it happen for you...what caused you to have the views you have now. I look forward to your post. (and I have to say right now I don't even know if I know what your end time views on...I either forgotten or I don't know! :hmm:) I hate having a bad memory..:(

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 09:12 PM
She wasn't kidding when she said "I had spent countless hours doing the debate thing on here". :D

Yea and because of it you have been scarred for life...right? :lol::lol::lol:

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 09:20 PM
Moonglow,

Good thread and welcome back. So good seeing you again. :)

I wrote the following several years ago and I have shared it here several times over the last couple of years I have been here, either in its entirety or just snippets of it.

I'm posting just part of here now:


I was very limited in my knowledge of the endtimes until around 1970, about 3 or 4 years after God so mercifully saved me. Never heard of any kind of tribs or mills before then. About all I knew was that we had better be ready because Jesus was coming back soon. Those who were not ready would be left behind to face Armeggeddon when God would punish them for their sins until their blood would flow up to the horses bridles.

Therefore, Mama taught me that reading the Bible and praying just before going to sleep at night in order to be ready should the Lord come back during the middle of the night while I was still asleep. I continued that practice after I was married, sometimes reading the Bible several times during the day also, to make absolutely sure that I was ready. I sure wanted to go to Heaven and live forever with Jesus. The thoughts of Heaven was about the only bright spot in my life as a child (especially after I had polio at the age of 8 that crippled me until the Lord miraculously healed me instantly in 1973), until I met my husband when I was 17. Armeggeddon, whatever that was, sure sounded like an awful place to me and was certainly something that I wanted no part of.

I can still remember those Sunday afternoons after Church growing up in the early '40s before we had electricity. After Sunday dinner, Mama would tune in to Charles E. Fuller's "Old Time Revival Hour," on our battery operated radio to hear his message on Revelation and Armageddon. He had a way of driving his points home with his many colorful illustrations of that end-time battle. His messages Sunday after Sunday for years really made me strive harder and harder to escape that horrible event by being ready for the Lord to take me Home with Him.

So I was definitely pretrib when I first heard of premillennium around 1970, or thereabouts. I believed in the Rapture of the Church before (what I had learned by then to be) the Great Tribulation. But no one ever mentioned that this view was a pretrib view or any kind of view, probably because there was no other such view being preached or taught in my neck of the woods that I had ever heard. In fact, I can never remember hearing any of my pastors preach one sermon on the endtimes in the two Southern Baptist Churches that I had been a member of up to the '70s at any time during my first thirty years of life. Besides Dr. Fuller, Billy Graham and Harold B. Sightler (aired a 30 minute radio program Monday - Friday at 10:30 AM from Greenville, SC in the '50s), and of course my precious Mama, had been my only endtime sources.

Fast-foward to the '90s when all the craze in the secular and well as in the christian world was the first Iragi war and Y2K.. The decade began with Desert Storm under the 1st Bush White House. It was hard for me to keep up with the constant breaking news several times a day which the top prophecy teachers said was the actual unfolding of prophecy being fulfilled right before our eyes. I was sitting in church on the Wednesday night that Saddam Hussein fired the first Scud Missle at Israel and it hit there.

My pastor had told us that if and when a Scud Missle hit Israel, it would be the beginning of World War 111 as predicted in the Bible. So the Rapture would take place just before or just as the war was beginning. His wife was delayed at home for the first half of the service. But service came to a screeching halt when she rushed through the doors just about thirty minutes before the service was over and shouted, "CNN is reporting that Israel has just been hit with a Scud Missle." With that, the regular service stopped. Panic hit the place. People were screaming, running, some laughing but more were crying, as they were rushing through the doors to get home before Jesus came and swept them all away. You would have thought that the Scud Missle had hit the church.

I sat there in total awe and silence as I watched such crazyness going on until the pastor suddenly noticed that I was still sitting in the sanctuary all alone just as he was cutting off the last of the lights. He was beside himself as he escorted me out of the church to my car in the parking lot. He said, "Sister Shirley, if the Lord doesn't come tonight, I'm calling the school first thing in the morning and give up my job as band director there." And he did. That Wednesday night was just the beginning of the total bizarre madness that would follow throughout the rest of the decade of the nineties with the many predictions of Y2K..

In the early morning hours on January 1st of 1999, I made a promise to God. I would no longer be satisfied to just sit by and just swallow everything that was coming down the pike. I was determined to begin that very day to begin an indepth search of the endtimes. I would not stop until He showed me in His Word the absolute truth concerning my endtime views. Many times during that decade I had felt the same urgings to do this. But each time I brushed them off because I was too busy....too busy trying to keep up with the latest breaking news from Pat Robertson, Hal Lindsey and other prophecy teachers television programs on TBN, Hal Linsey's weekly call-in radio program on Saturday afternoons. Marlin Maddox's daily two-hour radio program, along with CNN and C-Span. But I turned them all off that January morning.

My search didn't end though on December 31, 1999. It continued just as dilengtly for the next three years until I learned from a message board in 2002 that my Rapture position had been pretrib up until 1999. But now my Rapture position was post-trib. I also learned that I was premil, the first time I had heard that view labled before. The Lord was able to further open my eyes concerning the post tribulation Rapture and I learned so much more about it from the Scriptures as dedicated Christians there shared the Scriptures with me.


Shirley

Now that was a great post...very insightful! Isn't being older neat in this sense? (I don't mean the aching bones and wrinkles and stuff) but be able to share our history with others much younger then we are. Though I can't remember your age right now I realize there are some on here that see me as 'young'! lol. I turned 47 last month...oh joy. I think I am going through a mid life crisis too! Wanting some things changed in my life...but no I don't plan on buying a little red sports car and driving around this spring with the hood down...:lol:

Anyway I am learning to truly appreciate the insight and the input of those who have lived longer then me. Those like you who have gone through things and seen things that shed a whole new light on this view!

I would like to see the rest of your story..either on here or on PM if that is ok. I think I remember reading part of it before too. What happened to that preacher by the way and the church when they were not raptured out when they thought they would be? I can totally relate to everything you were saying in constantly watching the news for 'current events' that show the 'time is near'...and so glad I no longer am on the edge of my seat over these things anymore.

edited...I forgot to say that I also didn't understand or even know about all these terms until I came here..I still have to look some of them up because I can't keep them straight!

God bless

John146
Feb 22nd 2008, 09:53 PM
Yea and because of it you have been scarred for life...right? :lol::lol::lol:

No, not at all. Welcome back. :D Oh, I guess I should respond to your original post, too, huh?

I won't go in depth with Scripture supporting my view here, since I've done it so many times in other posts already. Here's the brief version of how I came to believe what I do regarding end times prophecy: I was always post-trib premill until I came to this forum a couple years ago. I was firmly post-trib, but never had even heard the terms premillennialism or amillennialism before. But I did believe in premill even though I didn't know that term existed. I was not a hardcore premill by any means, though. That view didn't make much sense to me, but I accepted it because I thought Revelation 19 and 20 were meant to be read chronologically. I'm not sure exactly why I automatically assumed that since I did believe there were parallel sections contained within the book of Revelation. I always believed that the seventh trumpet of Revelation was the same as the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52, for example, so I believed Christ will return at the seventh and last trumpet (and still do).

Anyway, once I came here I saw people (mainly wpm, Shirley Ford and David Taylor) talking about something called amillennialism. When I first saw the word, I thought, they believe there is no thousand years at all? Crazy talk. Then I realized they were saying the thousand years is symbolic for the New Testament time period (minus Satan's little season). They also gave Scriptures that teach that there is only one day of judgment and one day when all the dead, believers and unbelievers included, would be resurrected and this would occur when Christ returns. So, I thought, how can there be a resurrection and judgment at Christ's return and then another resurrection of the dead and judgment a thousand plus years later? So, I decided I should be like the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) and take what they were saying and search the Scriptures for myself to see if what they were saying was true and I determined that it was true.

Eric

moonglow
Feb 22nd 2008, 10:35 PM
No, not at all. Welcome back. :D Oh, I guess I should respond to your original post, too, huh?

I won't go in depth with Scripture supporting my view here, since I've done it so many times in other posts already. Here's the brief version of how I came to believe what I do regarding end times prophecy: I was always post-trib premill until I came to this forum a couple years ago. I was firmly post-trib, but never had even heard the terms premillennialism or amillennialism before. But I did believe in premill even though I didn't know that term existed. I was not a hardcore premill by any means, though. That view didn't make much sense to me, but I accepted it because I thought Revelation 19 and 20 were meant to be read chronologically. I'm not sure exactly why I automatically assumed that since I did believe there were parallel sections contained within the book of Revelation. I always believed that the seventh trumpet of Revelation was the same as the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52, for example, so I believed Christ will return at the seventh and last trumpet (and still do).

Anyway, once I came here I saw people (mainly wpm, Shirley Ford and David Taylor) talking about something called amillennialism. When I first saw the word, I thought, they believe there is no thousand years at all? Crazy talk. Then I realized they were saying the thousand years is symbolic for the New Testament time period (minus Satan's little season). They also gave Scriptures that teach that there is only one day of judgment and one day when all the dead, believers and unbelievers included, would be resurrected and this would occur when Christ returns. So, I thought, how can there be a resurrection and judgment at Christ's return and then another resurrection of the dead and judgment a thousand plus years later? So, I decided I should be like the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) and take what they were saying and search the Scriptures for myself to see if what they were saying was true and I determined that it was true.

Eric

Ok good...so your views were influenced and changed by discussions on here. So that means we aren't all as closed minded and stubbon as we appear! :lol:

Nice to see you too by the ways. :)

BrotherRoy
Feb 22nd 2008, 11:57 PM
Good Thread!

I'm new here so I'll just dive right in.

I can't honestly say I was raised Pre-Trib because whenever I would ask the question about the rapture I would get various answers, however I would hear preachers say we won't be here when it happens in relation to the end times. My grandfather held a degree in Theology and before he went home with the Lord a year ago he and I used to talk about the Bible. He would always say the rapture is going to happen in the early moments of the trib but would then say we're already in the tribulation.

I could never quite grasp a position then so I focused on the bulk of the tribulation. The mark, 7 years, anti-christ, one world government, various signs of the second coming of Jesus, etc. I can say I took to the pre-trib position after joing Rapture Ready. All the evidence seemed to point to the pre-trb view. I never saw what scripture was actually saying until I actually started listening to sermons online from the post-trib camp.

I begin to study Matthew 24, 1 & 2 Thessalonians and Revelation among other things and the Lord hit me with a brick. It was right there all this time...the sequence of events were clear in regards to when Christ will return. I began to understand that the "theif in the night" verse was speaking about those unprepared because it will be as it was in the days of Noah.

Therefore I realized the error of pre-trib and although I am still growing in the Word and trying to find as much time as possible to dig in...I feel God is opening my eyes to some truths about the current events today.

ServantoftheKing
Feb 23rd 2008, 12:00 AM
I cut out most of your post so I could narrow in on this part...

When you said recently several things were brought to your attention...where and when did this happen? Was it a bible study at a church, here on the board reading a posts or through your own private studies? Just curious. As Mikey0 said it appears that most on here are pretty set in their view points so I was just wondering. thanks.

God bless

Moonglow,

I had gone back home to visit my folks and got to talking with my dad who had been listening for a while to Irvin Baxter's teachings of a post-trib rapture. I watched some of the Bible Study DVDs from Baxter's endtime ministry and began to dig deeper and deeper.

The thing that stuck out the most to me was that Baxter stated that the Third Trumpet (the Wormwood Star) was the explosion of the Chernobyl nuclear plant in April of 1986. I kept asking myself, if that was possible. When after looking further and further into it myself I came to the realization that this was correct and therefore some of the trumpets have already sounded. With that knowledge, I realized that I had misinterpreted some of the events of Revelation because I had been looking to the future for some events that were already behind us.

We are no less susceptible to being blinded by our assumptions than those who lived during Jesus first coming. Many missed the fact that the Messiah was here because they assumed he would be something different. Our own assumptions can be quite powerful and work against us. Baxter stated in his study that no verse in Scripture confines the Seals and Trumpets to what is often referred to as the 7-year tribulation, but rather this is an assumption that we have. Once I heard him say that, I searched and searched to see if I could find such a verse and could not.

This is where I stand. But, as has been stated here by both post-trib believers and pre-trib believers, these are not salvation issues.

God Bless,

ServantoftheKing

jeffweeder
Feb 23rd 2008, 12:49 AM
I never read to many books about the end time, i was busy reading the bible and formed my view that way.
I think it is important to understand that it was the Lords promise and his statement that he had told us all things before they happen.
How then could Paul or anyone add to it?


]"Behold, I have told you in advance[/B].
26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Everything about the olivet discourse prepares you for trouble;


"But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.


"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In 1 thess 4 Paul teaches them according to the word of the Lord (as he had told us all in advance);


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

and again , there is no need for him to say anything;


Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

Peter talks about the coming like a theif, and relates it to the Lords promise also.;


But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. .

Jesus spoke about one coming again and that to recieve us to himself.
According to that word it is after the tribulation.

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 01:06 AM
Like some others this is the first thread I have encountered where I did not have to use the 4-3 defensive scheme. I have mixed emotions when it comes to the rapture and all this pre trib stuff. I myself am millienial.

I was baptised a Lutheran and have attended various churches over the years none of which I was happy with. I found my points of view differed from most so I just do the non denominational thing.

I believe in the Trinity, and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. My end times point of view is radical to say the least. I am a faithful believer in the Jewish state of Israel and stand behind her 100%.

I don't believe there are any true prophets today.....

I believe that scripture is literal and says what it says.

I truly detest the notion of people foretelling or predicting end time events that disgust me more than anything.

The Messiahs word is the only word and there are none others.

swtjudy
Feb 23rd 2008, 01:44 AM
Boy was I glad to see your thread. I am in the same boat you are in. I have been taught by everyone I come into contact with and who's endtime website I subscribe to that there will be a pre-trib rapture. However, it has always gnawed at the back of mind that we would go through at least some of the tribulation. I am reading Revelation again and have asked the Holy Spirit to lead me into the truth, but it scares me too. I believe that when the time comes Jesus will be there beside me to help me overcome, but I can't help being a little afraid. When I read Rev. 6:9-11 to me it says plainly that we will be persecuted and killed for our Lord. Also, pre-tribbers always quote the Scripture about it being like the days of Lot, and say that he was removed before God's wrath was poured out. After I really looked at that and thought about it all on my own, with the Holy Spirit's help, I saw that Lot was gotten out just before hail and brimstone rained down, but was there through all the terrible things the people were doing. I also think that the Seals in chapter 6 have already been opened and that we are someplace around the fourth seal. What do you think about this?

swtjudy
Feb 23rd 2008, 01:47 AM
Moonglow,

Like you, I grew up hearing nothing but the pre-trib viewpoint, i.e. the rapture occurs first, then a 7-year tribulation during which the seals are opened, then the trumpets sound, then the vials are poured out finally culminating at the battle of Armageddon. Recently, several things were brought to my attention that shook me away from this viewpoint.

1. There is no verse in Scripture that confines the Seals and Trumpets to the tribulation. I realized here that my assumptions had me looking to the future for all of these events. Another topic for another thread, but I do believe several of the seals may be open and several of the trumpets have already sounded.

2. It was brought to my attention that the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial are all describing the same event: the battle of Armageddon. Therefore, the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are not occuring sequentially (Seals, then Trumpets, then Vials), but rather they are counting down to the same event.

3. Once I understood these first two things, Jesus words in Matthew 24:29-31 make it clear that after the tribulation the battle of Armageddon takes place and it as at that time a trumpet call is used to gather the elect.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling in verse 29 is a reference to the 6th Seal (the battle of Armageddon). Jesus said it was at that time that the elect are gathered with a trumpet call. Which trumpet sounds at the same time the 6th Seal is opened? It is the 7th Trumpet.

Learning these things, and being convinced of their Scriptural truth, is why I believe that the rapture is a post-tribulation event. Good thread.

ServantoftheKing
Just in case you don't see my answer I will answer you directly. I too believe the seals are already opened and I believe we are someplace around the fourth seal right now. I too always went along with the pre-trib view, even though I had the nagging feeling that it was not true.

moonglow
Feb 23rd 2008, 01:57 AM
Thank you all for your replies on this...I find it very insightful just to see where people get their ideas...its so good to see everyone doing alot of praying on this and interesting to see how our views changed over time with the Lord's leading, either directly from Him or through others.

One common theme we see in the bible over and over again is how God works through others to reach other people. He makes US part of it all. He could very easily by pass us and go straight to folks directly..but that would leave us totally out of the picture and all of the New Testament is about how we are to be one body In Christ. If God only dealt with each of us separately...what reason would we have to relate to each other...other then to share stories of our encounters with Him? It would be like a teacher only working with one student in class at a time and doing it in private...it wouldn't bring the class together as a whole...to learn from each other. Instead He pulls us in closer so we have to rely on each other as He works through us. I think its really something pretty amazing!

Its also nice to see everyone simply telling their views without having to defend their views...for a change...;) Thank you all.

God bless

yoSAMite
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:44 AM
I came to the Lord through a divorce at about 30 years old. The first year of my faith walk I didn't even attend church as I didn't know about Bible teaching churches, so my teaching was the reading of my wedding Bible (yeah the big white one). I could only believe what God had written. For the next dozen years I was a Pan-Millenialist in that I believed that everything would pan out in the end and the Father would take care of me, with a mid to post trib leaning.

During that time I worked in Christian radio and retail and in my everyday activities I had the opportunity to hear about most every Christian doctrine around. I listened and gleaned from every conversation I had, but still had very little interest in end time events. About 5 years ago I became more interested in end times events as God quickened my heart to that part of Bible study.

After re-examining my earlier beliefs and digging deeper into the Word than I ever have before, I've become a fairly standard pre-trib rapture believer. During my epiphany I came across a teacher by the name of Chuck Missler who's opened my eyes to a deeper understanding of end times views and events. Though solidly pre-trib, he also explains other viewpoints and encourages people to study the Word for themselves. It seems that as one interprets the Bible more literally, the more likely they lean to a pre-trib viewpoint. I'm learning more and more views here. They may tweak my beliefs some, but more often than not they seem to strengthen my pre-trib views. There are still aspects I haven't studied deeply, but I'm working on those.

Diggindeeper
Feb 23rd 2008, 06:47 AM
Hi again! I'm back and have read the posts that were added after I stopped by here this morning.

I, too, had been raised pre-trib. The biggest difference was, I suppose, that my family was not really involved in church until after I was saved at the age of ten. Since my parents did not go, I started riding a church bus with my friends, and loved church from the start. I've always just had a great desire to be around the family of God.

But I had a Sunday School teacher that always, without fail, would pray each and every Sunday morning that those in her class would come to realize at "their young age" the need for salvation offered by Jesus, by his suffering, death and resurrection. And I became convicted by the words of that teacher and went down at an altar call, and was saved. My parents did start to church after that, I think because they got tired of me "begging" them to go to church with me.

But I was kind of "slapped in the face" (so to speak) when I went to school the very next day after I had accepted Christ as my Savior and marched into the classroom and right up to my teacher, and said, "Miss Kelly, I got saved last night!" I fully expected her to hug me and say how glad she was and all that, but she didn't do that. Instead, she rared back on two legs of her chair, and laughed LOUD and LONG till she was crying. I, not knowing why she was laughing so hard, did not know what to do but stand there, feeling embarrassed. A hush had fallen over the students, and I noticed they were ALL looking our way, with a puzzled look on their faces. I remember thinking, I bet they think I told her a joke or something real funny!

Finally, she stopped laughing, and dried her eyes and said to me, "Got saved--YOU got saved? You don't even know what the Bible says! You're too young."

Well, I was dumbstruck! But I remember telling her, "I may not know what all the Bible says now, BUT I WILL!" And, let me tell you, from that moment...the Lord instilled in me the desire to read and read and study and learn from the Word!

A man named Mr. Neal came to our school about every 3 or 4 months and gave "rewards" to those who had memorized scriptures and quoted them to our teacher before classes began. Back then, it was easy for me to put to memory the scriptures I was reading, so first I was awarded a little, thin Gospel of John booklet. Then I memorized more and more, and earned a New Testament. Then, I memorized enough to receive a brand new Bible! (And all we had back then was the King James version!)

It was several years later before I ever heard preaching about the Lord's return, and of course, it was pre-trib teaching. All this time, I had been an avid reader and student of the scriptures. I absolutely LOVED reading the Bible, from the age of 10! So as some more years went by, I was trying to get it into my head about this secret rapture, that would happen suddenly one day, taking all of us out of here and leaving the people left-behind to wonder where in the world we had gone.

I heard about the planes that would fall from the sky when Christian pilots were "taken."
...about the car pile-ups on highways, when the occupants were "taken."
...about how investigative reporters would be asking, "Where did all these people go?"
...about family members who would be saying, "They seem to have vanished into thin air, leaving only the clothes they were wearing in little piles."

But I kept thinking, something must be wrong with me. I can't find anything hint of all this in the Bible! (And I am not exaggerating when I say I had, all this time, been an avid student of scriptures!) This was the beginning of what became many doubts about what I had been taught. I KNEW there was no "secret" rapture anytime, before or after the tribulation period! It just is not there, at all.

Eventually, I was grown and teaching classes at church. Not the same church all this time. Over the years, this same secret rapture was taught in all the churches I went to. After I married, we lived in different counties and went to different churches and different denominations. it seemed they all taught a "rapture at any moment." And all this time, I was striving to "get it into my head." I figured, if that's what the Baptist, and the Methodist taught, and the Assemblies of God taught, and the Church of God taught, and the Christian church taught, then it had to be me that needed more understanding.

But I kept seeing too many scriptures that contradicted that belief. Some have already been quoted in posts here, so I won't repeat all of them. I was another who had never heard the term "pre-trib" or "post-trib" or any other "labels". Finally, out of sheer desperation for truth, I began to pray for understanding. I prayed and prayed and prayed. I finally determined to lay aside everything I had heard, and been taught, and I sincerely started digging deeper into the Word, from start to finish.

Then, a strange thing happened to me. As I kept studying, the Holy Spirit began to point out certain passages that seemed to me to be in CAPITAL LETTERS, and in BOLD PRINT. Well, that'show it seemed to me. Like I was seeing them for the first time.

I was reading Revelation chapter 13, and saw clearly this:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.


This part stood out like bold print, in capital letters:
7 AND IT WAS GIVEN TO HIM TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, AND TO OVERCOME THEM:
...and I was asking, How could the beast make war with the saints and overcome them, if they are already raptured out?

Then, there was this:
2 Thess. 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (The "coming of the Lord" is what we call the "rapture", when we are gathered together with him.)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (THAT DAY, the rapture, shall not come...till there comes a falling away--which is here now--and THAT MAN OF SIN is revealed.)

Finally, I could see so clearly that all I had heard and been taught was not right. I could finally put all scriptures together and they fit like pieces to a puzzle. I had even been taught wrong about the second coming in regard to Noah and Lot! They had not been simply taken out...they had been the only ones SPARED. It was they who were LEFT here, while the only the wicked perished! All around them, everything evil was DESTROYED! All that was "left-behind" were the righteous people of God!

But, in seeing this, and finally accepting it, let me tell you...it made me literally sick! I thought, This is not as soothing as being taken out, before the tribulation starts. I was sick for weeks. (I felt like Daniel. The end-times that he was shown literally made him sick, too! I was throwing up, I had no appetite. I was troubled night and day for weeks. The more I continued studying, the more I was shown...things about Nero and the atrocities he committed against the Christians...the temple that was destroyed in 70 AD...and just so much that STILL fit like pieces that form a beautiful picture puzzle!

And then, I returned to see ONLY what Christ had said from his very own mouth, like in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17 and Luke 21, and I saw that what I was seeing was what he had actually said, in his own words! And it was what I had already found in scriptures.

I was then able to go to the book of Daniel, and it seemed to me like a "miniature" of the book of Revelation! In Daniel, I saw a wicked king who made a giant statue and ordered those in his kingdom to bow down to it...or die. It was even referred to as an "image."

In Revelation, I saw that all people had to worship the "image"...or die! And I began to see how God provided and spared those who did not bow to the image the king made in the book of Daniel, and knew...if it comes to that, he was still the same God! Still so very capable of providing and sparing!

The strange thing to me is that it is mainly the leaders, like Pastors and Preachers, who are still teaching this adamantly. But, I have come to realize, if they don't continue in what the denomination has taught them, they would be kicked out of the pulpit, and shunned, or worse. They could lose their churches, and their livelihood. What a hardship they would face, if they stop teaching what has become the "popular" view! We need to really pray for our Pastors!

I know, that in this area, many in the congregation (for the most part) don't believe the way they had been taught, but we still attend these churches, like I do, in spite of our difference in end times eschatology. I love my Pastor, and he knows my husband and I are not pre-trib, premil, but we don't try to convert him or the congregation. We stand for our beliefs, as it comes up, but I don't think the Lord wants us to be pushy-got-it-all-together-know-it-alls. God knows, we have changed our views before and if the Holy Spirit shows us differently, we want to still be teachable!

So, we go on, working as the Lord leads, in our church, and shoulder to shoulder with our Pastor and others who still hold to the end-times view that we have long ago abandoned.

Cyberseeker
Feb 23rd 2008, 08:06 AM
What an eye opener this topic is. :o I have often wondered if a survey should be done to see if there has been a major shift in prophetic thinking over the last few decades. Indeed there seems to be.

I was raised in the Open Brethren whose founding fathers included Darby and Schofield. My conversion to Christ as an adult was in an Assembly of God - another thoroughly dispensational denomination. The first book I read on the subject was by Oral Roberts. And of course, I have read the Hal Lindsay - Tim La Haye era too.

From the beginning of my conversion I was dissatisfied with Pre-trib explanations and adopted a late-trib rapture position similar to 'Pre-wrath.' I was very affected by the theology of Professor George Ladd.

In recent years I did substantial research in the subject of biblical chronology. As a result I have adopted a 'new-style' historicist method of interpreting prophetic timelines. (I say 'new-style' because 'old-style' historicists fail to discern the significance of Islam in the prophetic picture.)

In addition to the above, I have come to accept the understanding described by some on this board as, 'Realized Millennium.' I believe the teaching that anticipates future temple worship, contains the seed of serious error.

Thank you Moonglow for such a good topic.

Cyberseeker

moonglow
Feb 23rd 2008, 04:46 PM
Hi again! I'm back and have read the posts that were added after I stopped by here this morning.

I, too, had been raised pre-trib. The biggest difference was, I suppose, that my family was not really involved in church until after I was saved at the age of ten. Since my parents did not go, I started riding a church bus with my friends, and loved church from the start. I've always just had a great desire to be around the family of God.

But I had a Sunday School teacher that always, without fail, would pray each and every Sunday morning that those in her class would come to realize at "their young age" the need for salvation offered by Jesus, by his suffering, death and resurrection. And I became convicted by the words of that teacher and went down at an altar call, and was saved. My parents did start to church after that, I think because they got tired of me "begging" them to go to church with me.

But I was kind of "slapped in the face" (so to speak) when I went to school the very next day after I had accepted Christ as my Savior and marched into the classroom and right up to my teacher, and said, "Miss Kelly, I got saved last night!" I fully expected her to hug me and say how glad she was and all that, but she didn't do that. Instead, she rared back on two legs of her chair, and laughed LOUD and LONG till she was crying. I, not knowing why she was laughing so hard, did not know what to do but stand there, feeling embarrassed. A hush had fallen over the students, and I noticed they were ALL looking our way, with a puzzled look on their faces. I remember thinking, I bet they think I told her a joke or something real funny!

Finally, she stopped laughing, and dried her eyes and said to me, "Got saved--YOU got saved? You don't even know what the Bible says! You're too young."

Well, I was dumbstruck! But I remember telling her, "I may not know what all the Bible says now, BUT I WILL!" And, let me tell you, from that moment...the Lord instilled in me the desire to read and read and study and learn from the Word!

A man named Mr. Neal came to our school about every 3 or 4 months and gave "rewards" to those who had memorized scriptures and quoted them to our teacher before classes began. Back then, it was easy for me to put to memory the scriptures I was reading, so first I was awarded a little, thin Gospel of John booklet. Then I memorized more and more, and earned a New Testament. Then, I memorized enough to receive a brand new Bible! (And all we had back then was the King James version!)

It was several years later before I ever heard preaching about the Lord's return, and of course, it was pre-trib teaching. All this time, I had been an avid reader and student of the scriptures. I absolutely LOVED reading the Bible, from the age of 10! So as some more years went by, I was trying to get it into my head about this secret rapture, that would happen suddenly one day, taking all of us out of here and leaving the people left-behind to wonder where in the world we had gone.

I heard about the planes that would fall from the sky when Christian pilots were "taken."
...about the car pile-ups on highways, when the occupants were "taken."
...about how investigative reporters would be asking, "Where did all these people go?"
...about family members who would be saying, "They seem to have vanished into thin air, leaving only the clothes they were wearing in little piles."

But I kept thinking, something must be wrong with me. I can't find anything hint of all this in the Bible! (And I am not exaggerating when I say I had, all this time, been an avid student of scriptures!) This was the beginning of what became many doubts about what I had been taught. I KNEW there was no "secret" rapture anytime, before or after the tribulation period! It just is not there, at all.

Eventually, I was grown and teaching classes at church. Not the same church all this time. Over the years, this same secret rapture was taught in all the churches I went to. After I married, we lived in different counties and went to different churches and different denominations. it seemed they all taught a "rapture at any moment." And all this time, I was striving to "get it into my head." I figured, if that's what the Baptist, and the Methodist taught, and the Assemblies of God taught, and the Church of God taught, and the Christian church taught, then it had to be me that needed more understanding.

But I kept seeing too many scriptures that contradicted that belief. Some have already been quoted in posts here, so I won't repeat all of them. I was another who had never heard the term "pre-trib" or "post-trib" or any other "labels". Finally, out of sheer desperation for truth, I began to pray for understanding. I prayed and prayed and prayed. I finally determined to lay aside everything I had heard, and been taught, and I sincerely started digging deeper into the Word, from start to finish.

Then, a strange thing happened to me. As I kept studying, the Holy Spirit began to point out certain passages that seemed to me to be in CAPITAL LETTERS, and in BOLD PRINT. Well, that'show it seemed to me. Like I was seeing them for the first time.

I was reading Revelation chapter 13, and saw clearly this:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.


This part stood out like bold print, in capital letters:
7 AND IT WAS GIVEN TO HIM TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, AND TO OVERCOME THEM:
...and I was asking, How could the beast make war with the saints and overcome them, if they are already raptured out?

Then, there was this:
2 Thess. 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (The "coming of the Lord" is what we call the "rapture", when we are gathered together with him.)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (THAT DAY, the rapture, shall not come...till there comes a falling away--which is here now--and THAT MAN OF SIN is revealed.)

Finally, I could see so clearly that all I had heard and been taught was not right. I could finally put all scriptures together and they fit like pieces to a puzzle. I had even been taught wrong about the second coming in regard to Noah and Lot! They had not been simply taken out...they had been the only ones SPARED. It was they who were LEFT here, while the only the wicked perished! All around them, everything evil was DESTROYED! All that was "left-behind" were the righteous people of God!

But, in seeing this, and finally accepting it, let me tell you...it made me literally sick! I thought, This is not as soothing as being taken out, before the tribulation starts. I was sick for weeks. (I felt like Daniel. The end-times that he was shown literally made him sick, too! I was throwing up, I had no appetite. I was troubled night and day for weeks. The more I continued studying, the more I was shown...things about Nero and the atrocities he committed against the Christians...the temple that was destroyed in 70 AD...and just so much that STILL fit like pieces that form a beautiful picture puzzle!

And then, I returned to see ONLY what Christ had said from his very own mouth, like in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17 and Luke 21, and I saw that what I was seeing was what he had actually said, in his own words! And it was what I had already found in scriptures.

I was then able to go to the book of Daniel, and it seemed to me like a "miniature" of the book of Revelation! In Daniel, I saw a wicked king who made a giant statue and ordered those in his kingdom to bow down to it...or die. It was even referred to as an "image."

In Revelation, I saw that all people had to worship the "image"...or die! And I began to see how God provided and spared those who did not bow to the image the king made in the book of Daniel, and knew...if it comes to that, he was still the same God! Still so very capable of providing and sparing!

The strange thing to me is that it is mainly the leaders, like Pastors and Preachers, who are still teaching this adamantly. But, I have come to realize, if they don't continue in what the denomination has taught them, they would be kicked out of the pulpit, and shunned, or worse. They could lose their churches, and their livelihood. What a hardship they would face, if they stop teaching what has become the "popular" view! We need to really pray for our Pastors!

I know, that in this area, many in the congregation (for the most part) don't believe the way they had been taught, but we still attend these churches, like I do, in spite of our difference in end times eschatology. I love my Pastor, and he knows my husband and I are not pre-trib, premil, but we don't try to convert him or the congregation. We stand for our beliefs, as it comes up, but I don't think the Lord wants us to be pushy-got-it-all-together-know-it-alls. God knows, we have changed our views before and if the Holy Spirit shows us differently, we want to still be teachable!

So, we go on, working as the Lord leads, in our church, and shoulder to shoulder with our Pastor and others who still hold to the end-times view that we have long ago abandoned.

Thank you for posting this...yours and Shirely's I can relate too very much indeed!

I bolded that part of your post about praying for these pastors that are still teaching the pre-trib rapture view because of pressures to do so...because its a popular idea. I wanted to clarify something in regards to my own former pastor. He had already lost his church and full time income and a church car over at the old church because they were under the Disciples of Christ who changed their views that there is more then way one to Heaven other then just through Christ...:( along with some other doctrinal issues. He did stand up to them and when the members voted to stay under the DOC he quit. He also lost his medical insurance too. He had to literally start over and a small group followed him and encouraged him to start up a new church. About a third left the church to find other churches to go to around here. Those that stayed, that voted to stay under this teachings somehow got it in their heard due to some other members...that if they voted to not stay under the DOC they would lose the building...! As we all know a church is not a building, but the people in it. They would not have lost the building anyway.

I was very impressed with him for standing up for the truth in Jesus and losing so much. So while I knew he views on the end times were not the same as mine, I didn't consider it a big deal as its not a salvation issue. Our core beliefs were the same..of course. I don't general see the end time views as that big of a deal. And it wasn't like he was teaching it every Sunday..in fact the only time I think of that he taught about the end times was during bible studies.

But as I said there were other things going on besides this...Nate and I were never accepted by many of the other members of the church (mostly the married women). I was never invited to their outside social activities...not to open house parties they had or other events. I really think they saw me as a threat because I was single. Plus alot of people did not like my hyper son...:( I will say many of the widow ladies were very kind to us and always asking me how I was and very caring. After I was pretty much called a heretic in bible study that one time, I still let it slide. I chalked it up to ignorance on the part of the pastor and emailed him links to all the other end time views that showed ALL these views believe Jesus will physically return one day. I never got a reply though.

The hurts had piled up though in those years...the looks, the cold shoulder from the pastors wife, the isolation of never belonging...people yelling at my son to stop running or being so loud when he played after church with another boy. They were just being kids...:( All that did was scare Nate to pieces too. :cry:

The last draw came when I tried to see about starting up a children's church service. Nate refused to go to Sunday School because the pastors' wife taught it...she never smiled...ran it like a strict cold classroom. She was clearly burnt out and needed to have someone else take over. She had the kids do alot of paperwork which Nate hates....with his learning disability this kind of work only raised his anxiety level. For him school was bad enough..why would he want to do this sort of work early on a Sunday morning too?

He would sit with me in church not understanding the sermons because they were on an adult level. Getting him to go to church was like pulling teeth. He was getting nothing out of it at all and it was to the point he hated church. It had always been a struggle with him anyway. I grew seriously concerned if I kept making him go to church that eventually he would hate God too...not just hate church.

So in a last ditch effort for my son to grow spiritually in some way in church I asked the pastor if I could start up a children's church service where lessons on the Lord could be done on their level and in a fun way. Nate always liked vacation bible school because they made it fun while the kids learned. He is one that needs to be physically doing something, not just sitting and looking at the clock every minute. The pastor thought it was a good idea but said I would have to talk to this other family that had two children...one a boy close to Nate's age. (we had very few kids in church..five...no new families were coming in...which I don't blame them as we were offering nothing for the children).

So I did. And her response was...'that is for little kids and MY kids go to Sunday School'...a real slap in the face I felt.

Still I did not give up. I called the other mom of one girl...she thought it was a good idea and her friend, another church member had talked about doing something like this for the kids but on Wednesday evenings. She had been looking at the great kids church programs for older kids too. But she said she would have to talk to her husband and her friend. I waited and waited she never called back. I finally called her and she said she hadn't had a chance to talk to them again. Meanwhile we missed a Sunday or two due to illnesses. She never called back...

Meaning the answer was no. None of the other parents would back me on it. And I decided I would no longer go where we were clearly not welcomed.

Anyway I didn't mean to write a book here! I lost faith with the churches these days. Before we started going to this church we visited a number of others...being a divorced single mom is simply hard to be accepted by churches around here OR they twist scriptures on so many different things I cannot just overlook it. I can over look a churches end time views, but some things, like the core beliefs we need to have to even be called Christians, I cannot overlook...plus I don't want Nate taught that stuff. So we haven't been going to any church for quite a while now...I keep hoping though. Hoping these churches start getting at least back to the basic of the bible.

I think its good to see so many on here leaning on the Lord and being taught things that may not agree with their church...not allowing the church to dictate their beliefs, but letting God work in them. I think that is wonderful. :)

God bless

Roelof
Feb 24th 2008, 04:15 AM
In addition to the above, I have come to accept the understanding described by some on this board as, 'Realized Millennium.' I believe the teaching that anticipates future temple worship, contains the seed of serious error.

Cyberseeker

Cyberseeker

Can you please explain the term "Realized Millennium" a bit more?

Cyberseeker
Feb 24th 2008, 05:49 AM
'Realized Millennium'

Sorry Roelof, it is a term many use in preference to the word 'Amillennialism' - but means the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism#Terminology

moonglow
Feb 24th 2008, 04:17 PM
'Realized Millennium'

Sorry Roelof, it is a term many use in preference to the word 'Amillennialism' - but means the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism#Terminology

Thanks! I was wondering that myself...

My heart's Desire
Feb 28th 2008, 06:36 AM
I almost wonder how many got their end time wisdom from the Word on their own or got it after hearing a teachers view first? More than likely I heard the pretrib rapture or futurist or however you want to call it view somewhere in sermons as I grew up in Baptist church.
Really my own first expectation of the Lord's return was remembering a blood red moon. In 5th grade at a football game there was a red moon and the subject was the Lord's return or more than likely talk of the end of the world as we were only 5th graders!

I won't pretend that my view was entirely from my understanding of the Word myself at first, because most of us have gotten views or a view from others. In other words, I'm not quite sure if I gained understanding from my own diligent study or from others in my early years...that would have been almost 40 something years ago. One of my first Bibles I used was from my Grandmother in 1966 (I still have it too!).
Regardless, I have to say that now that I've done and am doing my own diligent studies, I'm probably sticking to pretrib, premill view and I really hate it when some make it sound as if I get it from Darby, because I think I get it from my own study of the Word. I didn't even know who Darby was. I didn't know people had titles according to the view they held. And I blissly until the last few years thought everyone in the World held the same view, because the Word taught it! :)
I'm a thinker and an avid reader (always have been)and I don't throw the baby out with bathwater. I enjoy others views because it makes me think and study harder, but it also confuses me too much.
humm did I answer the question? I get my view from my own study of the Word. I've read Lindsey and others but I think on my own.

White Spider
Feb 28th 2008, 07:11 AM
(Well this may seem a little out of context, but that's because it's something I posted in another thread and am simply copying and pasting it in this one to save time.)

I must say, I've been through this argument with Christian's and non-christian's alike. (I know this thread is not argumentative, as I said, this post a copy from another thread)

My personal opinion has come to be the following:

Hope it's pre-trib so you do not have to face the tribulation, but make sure you understand what will happen if you are caught in tribulation so you are not deceived and turned away from God.

Matthew 10:33 -> But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (KJV)

Matthew 10:33 -> But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven. (NLT)

You don't want to deny Him and be deceived because you were unprepared (and expecting a pre-trib rapture). And do not think just because Christ is with you you are immune to deception.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 -> For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (KJV)

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 -> The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. (NIV)

As I said, hope for a pre-trib, but prepare for a post-trib as to keep yourself from being deceived.

(And I agree with the philosophy we should not be worried about the end of days.)

(All of the above in parenthesis was added for this thread except the Bible versions after verses.)

quiet dove
Feb 28th 2008, 05:31 PM
I almost wonder how many got their end time wisdom from the Word on their own or got it after hearing a teachers view first? More than likely I heard the pretrib rapture or futurist or however you want to call it view somewhere in sermons as I grew up in Baptist church.
Really my own first expectation of the Lord's return was remembering a blood red moon. In 5th grade at a football game there was a red moon and the subject was the Lord's return or more than likely talk of the end of the world as we were only 5th graders!

I won't pretend that my view was entirely from my understanding of the Word myself at first, because most of us have gotten views or a view from others. In other words, I'm not quite sure if I gained understanding from my own diligent study or from others in my early years...that would have been almost 40 something years ago. One of my first Bibles I used was from my Grandmother in 1966 (I still have it too!).
Regardless, I have to say that now that I've done and am doing my own diligent studies, I'm probably sticking to pretrib, premill view and I really hate it when some make it sound as if I get it from Darby, because I think I get it from my own study of the Word. I didn't even know who Darby was. I didn't know people had titles according to the view they held. And I blissly until the last few years thought everyone in the World held the same view, because the Word taught it! :)
I'm a thinker and an avid reader (always have been)and I don't throw the baby out with bathwater. I enjoy others views because it makes me think and study harder, but it also confuses me too much.
humm did I answer the question? I get my view from my own study of the Word. I've read Lindsey and others but I think on my own.

I would be hesitant to accept that anyone got their view only from their own reading of the Bible. We have all been influenced at some time by some teacher somewhere. Then with our own study determined who and what we believe to be accurate. I'v read pre trib, amil and post trib writers and with my own study determined what I believe to be correct. I mean a lot of people say they got their understanding strickly from their own study and then turn around and quote a commentary. :rolleyes:

We have all been influenced by teachers and writers, historic writers and modern. But as the Bible says, we must check all by what it says and determined who we believe to be accurately interpreting, and go with our own study, but most folks have been influenced by someone, somewhere along the way.:)

moonglow
Feb 28th 2008, 07:30 PM
I almost wonder how many got their end time wisdom from the Word on their own or got it after hearing a teachers view first? More than likely I heard the pretrib rapture or futurist or however you want to call it view somewhere in sermons as I grew up in Baptist church.
Really my own first expectation of the Lord's return was remembering a blood red moon. In 5th grade at a football game there was a red moon and the subject was the Lord's return or more than likely talk of the end of the world as we were only 5th graders!

I won't pretend that my view was entirely from my understanding of the Word myself at first, because most of us have gotten views or a view from others. In other words, I'm not quite sure if I gained understanding from my own diligent study or from others in my early years...that would have been almost 40 something years ago. One of my first Bibles I used was from my Grandmother in 1966 (I still have it too!).
Regardless, I have to say that now that I've done and am doing my own diligent studies, I'm probably sticking to pretrib, premill view and I really hate it when some make it sound as if I get it from Darby, because I think I get it from my own study of the Word. I didn't even know who Darby was. I didn't know people had titles according to the view they held. And I blissly until the last few years thought everyone in the World held the same view, because the Word taught it! :)
I'm a thinker and an avid reader (always have been)and I don't throw the baby out with bathwater. I enjoy others views because it makes me think and study harder, but it also confuses me too much.
humm did I answer the question? I get my view from my own study of the Word. I've read Lindsey and others but I think on my own.

I have to agree with QuiteDove on this...we do get influenced by others whether we realize it or not. I also didn't have a clue as to who Darby was when I first came to this board either...and I didn't know I was a labeled a pre-trib rapture believer either! I never heard of any other views and yes I read it in the bible too...as someone said seeing the moon turn red even scared my son one evening! Not because I told him that...but because we tend to take the bible in literal terms! Part of it is simply our culture and the bible was written in a different culture, a different time. The Jews knew what was to be taken literally and what wasn't...and here we fumble around with it...praying the Lord gives us wisdom because though our culture is very advanced compared to what it was back then we simply do not have the wisdom they did then...

God bless

Cyberseeker
Feb 28th 2008, 09:38 PM
... I mean a lot of people say they got their understanding strickly from their own study and then turn around and quote a commentary. :rolleyes:


LOL, aint it true. :lol:

My heart's Desire
Feb 29th 2008, 03:12 AM
I would be hesitant to accept that anyone got their view only from their own reading of the Bible. Perhaps, but I imagine there are some who have done so (view from the Bible only), but it would have to have been with the Holy Spirit's leading. I've heard several Salvation stories over the years of people getting saved during their reading of the Bible without human help.
Regardless, I almost think many probably get a view from their regular attendance within a denomination.
I feel the Bible doesn't neccessaraily forbid it as the Word does describe being taught by the Holy Spirit and does seem to assume that many will be taught by teachers, or even as Paul said you may have many tutors in Christ. On the other side, it warns of listening to false teachers also. I believe when one is steeped in the Word of God then the Holy Spirit will give discernment on a teachers teaching. I guess I meant to clarify that I've tended to be a reader of the Word who listens to teachers to see what their view is and then right back to the Word to make sure they were right or something like that. I don't think I really know of many or of any who blindly follow the teaching of someone without checking it out for themselves.
I think it's called lifelong learning!
Opps, sidetracking the discussion. :)

Jerome1
Feb 29th 2008, 10:48 PM
I didn't read through all the answers, and i'll not go into a long bible rant that no one will read and that no one cares about.

I believe what i believe because it makes the most sense to me, and is consistent with what the early church fathers believed.

Teke
Feb 29th 2008, 11:25 PM
I came to my views largely by observing how OT prophesies were taken out of context to talk about later times and things..it just did not sit well with my view of contextual interpretation of the scriptures.

I can certainly relate to this. :spin:

My end time view is found in The End (Eschaton), Jesus Christ. :saint:

moonglow
Mar 1st 2008, 12:12 AM
I didn't read through all the answers, and i'll not go into a long bible rant that no one will read and that no one cares about.

I believe what i believe because it makes the most sense to me, and is consistent with what the early church fathers believed.

Ok thanks! That is all I am asking on here anyway...how you came to the views you have...I have read every post on here...and if you want to do a long post on how you came to whatever views you have (which you don't have to say what view it is if you don't want too) I would read it and I image others would too. Its been an very interesting discussion...:)


God bless

thunderbyrd
Mar 4th 2008, 07:37 PM
i saw this post days ago and i had to think about it for awhile, it's a good question.

for whoever might be interested, the one biggest thing that tells me these are the end times are the 3 times in Scripture that the human race unifies around a false religion/government system: the tower of babel, the idol of daniel chapter 3, and the anti-christ's system as described in Revelations 13.

i believe i see conditions for this end-times "unity" everywhere. and that's why i believe we are in the end-times.

moonglow
Mar 4th 2008, 09:43 PM
i saw this post days ago and i had to think about it for awhile, it's a good question.

for whoever might be interested, the one biggest thing that tells me these are the end times are the 3 times in Scripture that the human race unifies around a false religion/government system: the tower of babel, the idol of daniel chapter 3, and the anti-christ's system as described in Revelations 13.

i believe i see conditions for this end-times "unity" everywhere. and that's why i believe we are in the end-times.

Ok...thanks for your input on this. I always find them interesting...:)

Some say we have always been in the end times since Christ ascended back to Heaven...and if you look at history...many times things were much, much worse then they are now. They wax and wane...get better for awhile, get worse again...

God bless

Sonshine
Mar 25th 2008, 04:52 AM
Hi everyone. I'm a newbie and have a little different veiw than most of you. Like most of you, I was taught the pre-trib veiw. It wasn't until about 15 years ago that I got a hunger to learn about end times. During my studies I didn't feel that the scriptures supported the pre-trib rapture, but I also didn't think they supported a post trib rapture.

My problems with a pre-trib rapture are as follows:

Pre-tribbers believe that the wrath of God or "the day of the Lord" begins at the beginning of the 7 year period. But I saw convincing evidence that the wrath of God begins inside the tribulation, not before it.

My problem with post trib was that as a whole, post-tribbers believe the church will go through the wrath of God. But I saw clear evidence that the church was not destined to go through the wrath of God.

So the question becomes, when is the wrath of God?

Here's a link that further explains the pre-wrath veiw point.

http://members.aol.com/chursey/prewrath.htm

Also, Marvin Rosenthal has an excellent book called The Prewrath Rapture.

Diggindeeper
Mar 25th 2008, 05:14 AM
My problem with post trib was that as a whole, post-tribbers believe the church will go through the wrath of God. But I saw clear evidence that the church was not destined to go through the wrath of God.

So the question becomes, when is the wrath of God?



I'm post trib, but I don't know any of us who believe the church will go through the wrath of God.

The church will go through the tribulation, which is the wrath of satan, not the wrath of God.

(I just felt the need to clarify that "as a whole", post-tribbers DO NOT believe the church will go through the wrath of God. That is a blanket statement that I needed to clarify, as to be accurate about how we believe.)

IPet2_9
Mar 25th 2008, 05:48 AM
I am post trib. I believe what I believe because it was my first impression when I first read the New Testament. I was age 10 and a new Christian at the time. Revelation was a little hard to understand, but my impression from reading the rest of the NT was post-trib. I didn't know any other eschatologies existed. I just don't think God intended the Word to be so hard to understand (except Revelation). So I trust my first instinct.

Realist1981
Mar 25th 2008, 08:14 AM
I don't see a pre tribulation rapture in either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament. I see a ressurection and those who are alive when Christ comes will put on immortality but the dead in Chirst will rise first and we will be caught up to be with our Lord forever.

third hero
Mar 25th 2008, 01:01 PM
Finally, a thread that I did not start that I can finally say why I believe as I do.....
I read what is there, compared it to what I was taught, and decided to choose what I read over what I was taught.

I could go into trains of thought, like saying that the view I hold to is conruent with te pattern that God has shown over the last 7000 years or so, or even try to explain why the post-trib premil POV resonnates with me so much. But the point of the matter is the very beginning, when I decided to take my walk with God seriously, I decided to just believe what I read over what I was taught. This is where it landed me. I am fine with that.

To your point, moonglow, I too had come to that point, where it seemed rather pointless to keep on debating when the one side will not budge or the other side sees no error in their judgment, and I am including myself in this foray. What I discovered, and what made this forum so much enjoyable to be was to engage in a discovery discussion. In the threads that I had done, I had realized that even the jargons that the different camps used differently. For instance. When a premiller says, "Rapture" An Amiller automatically assumes that th premiller is talking pre-trib rapture. ANd there are many more examples found even in this very thread.

What I have learned in here is invaluable, because I have learned those code-words and have begun the daunting task of causing the other sides to understand my position without the presuppositions. ANd in return, the other sides were more able to discuss their POV's without drawing red flags from my presuppositions. Actual learning was taking place, and I believe that this is the key to all sides coming together and at least living with one another's POV's. What do you think? Am I way off base?

moonglow
Mar 25th 2008, 01:45 PM
Finally, a thread that I did not start that I can finally say why I believe as I do.....
I read what is there, compared it to what I was taught, and decided to choose what I read over what I was taught.

I could go into trains of thought, like saying that the view I hold to is conruent with te pattern that God has shown over the last 7000 years or so, or even try to explain why the post-trib premil POV resonnates with me so much. But the point of the matter is the very beginning, when I decided to take my walk with God seriously, I decided to just believe what I read over what I was taught. This is where it landed me. I am fine with that.

To your point, moonglow, I too had come to that point, where it seemed rather pointless to keep on debating when the one side will not budge or the other side sees no error in their judgment, and I am including myself in this foray. What I discovered, and what made this forum so much enjoyable to be was to engage in a discovery discussion. In the threads that I had done, I had realized that even the jargons that the different camps used differently. For instance. When a premiller says, "Rapture" An Amiller automatically assumes that th premiller is talking pre-trib rapture. ANd there are many more examples found even in this very thread.

What I have learned in here is invaluable, because I have learned those code-words and have begun the daunting task of causing the other sides to understand my position without the presuppositions. ANd in return, the other sides were more able to discuss their POV's without drawing red flags from my presuppositions. Actual learning was taking place, and I believe that this is the key to all sides coming together and at least living with one another's POV's. What do you think? Am I way off base?

Yea I know what you are talking about..I avoid using the word rapture IN regards to my own ideas regarding the end times to avoid confusion. I use the word, resurrection. I really wish those referring to the resurrection only would stop using the word rapture because too many assume they mean the pre-trib rapture of the church where only believers are taken and the unbelievers left behind. When you say resurrection...well as least in my case, I mean everyone. The general resurrection for judgment. Of course I also realize some think only the unbelievers will be judged too...and not them...so even mentioning the Great White Throne judgment you have to be clear on what you mean there and not take it for granted people know what you mean.

I think what you are doing is very wise in just having a discussion instead of a debate. I am trying very hard to avoid debates...they lead to division and hard feelings and just isn't uplifting to anyone.

2 Timothy 2
14 Remind everyone about these things, and command them in Godís presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.

Now I won't say I always succeed in avoiding these debates, but I am trying. Its hard to 'walk away' leaving the 'other person' with having the 'last word' as it appears you have 'lost' the debate...(I am talking about myself here)...especially if they were being on the snotty side about things, but there is some wrong thinking going on with this. First...we aren't enemies...we are bothers and sisters in Christ and are suppose to be uplifting each other, encouraging each other...we aren't suppose to 'win'. Even if they were an enemy, Christ tells us to love our enemies. So sometimes its just better to stop posting and walk away from that discussion.

There are times when I think debates are important of course, such as debating a doctrine that is harmful to others, of course. Anything that biblically untrue needs to be challenged in love of course. Plenty of scriptures on correction and even rebuking another Christian on these things...but much of the time its more minor things we make into mountains that don't need to be. So if learning is taking place, then that is great! Too many times, especially on here, we tend to look at the other persons post in find holes to poke in it...to 'take it apart' and no real learning is going on...at least not in understanding their viewpoint.

Great post...thanks!

God bless

third hero
Mar 26th 2008, 01:17 PM
moonglow,
I totally agree with you. I just find that many times, when somoe debates are raised, like the resurrection versus rapture thing, the arguments become circular, and the bashing of the messengers usualy take the place of rational reasoning. This is another reason why I had learned to shy away from debates.

From being in here and from other places, I realized that there are people who will believe what they want, and no one can change their minds. I am one of those people. And so, instead of trying to convince someone that I am right and they are wrong, I figure I might as well see what they are talking about, and learn what their POV truly entails. From there, I can accurately either pick them apart, or just voice my dissent without being as condescending as I was when I first walked into this forum.

If only other people in here would do the same, because i have learned that no one's beliefs can be pigeon-holed. I have found pre-tribbers who believe as I do, except that they feel as though they will be prepared if they are wrong. I have found post-tribbers that I thought were pre-tribbers, and so the beat goes on. It is difficult to truly know what someone believes, especially in the end times forum, until we ask the right questions and avoid the code words that cause instant inflammation.

Easy task? By no means. However, once it is acchieved, then the ASA and the PSA can actually have a chance of living peaceably amongst each other's POVs.

moonglow
Mar 26th 2008, 01:53 PM
Very true indeed. There are some view points that don't really fit into the labels we have given them but as you said when key words used they can lead to instance reactions as (oh they must mean this) and the person starts thinking about how they can posts against it instead of really reading the post. I really wish though people would be more careful in the terms they use...such as I was saying before with the rapture. So many hold the rapture at the end of the tribulation but unless they say that, many assume they mean before that time. Or those holding the view its at the end will assume that is what that person means but they might mean mid-trib....no one really knows until they say so. Anyway I think we just need to work on our terms more so things are clearer for those reading. I wish everyone would have listed next to their AV or in their sig what their end times view is. I will struggle though a post someone did just TRYING to figure out what their POV is...until I do many of those posts make little sense to me. It would save on alot of guessing and misunderstandings for sure. Once I know their POV THEN their post makes sense because I can 'see' how they are viewing things.. but many don't say in their posts what their end time views are at all...leaving the reader guessing..

God bless

third hero
Mar 26th 2008, 06:58 PM
I read you there Moonglow. Trying to understand where some people are coming from with their POV's is like trying to read chinese with no translators around. Almost impossible. And I agree that maybe we should start incorporating our POV's (or to keep it short, what camp we fall into) and that may help a lot.

Personally, I stopped using the word rapture altogether because of that very reason you have said. So many times, it is related to the pre-trib POV, and that causes misunderstandings between Amils and myself. On top of that, the word never appears in scripture. ANd so, I just threw away the word "rapture" and inserted "The Gathering" and "The Quickening" (which means the same thing, but has that "Highlander" feel to it). At least if someone ask me what it is, I have a chance to explain what it is and how it differs from what is generally taught as the rapture. That way, I can have the person reading my posts focus on what I have to say rather than attempting to put me into one camp or another.

Well, hopefully, we can cause this conversation to spread, and maybe everyone in here will realize what is happening and change their wording to suit their actual POV, and the discussions can evolve from the circular arguments and the name-calling that ensues from it, to the type of discussions that will properly prepare us for the coming season of storms.

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 08:42 AM
I post what I do, not because man taught me, but due to a call from the Lord. I was saved at 15, and knew soon thereafter that God would one day have me teach scripture. I began to study and study and pray - just God, my bible and me working together. I was told over the years by strangers also- of this calling. God sent me from the streets and stores where I spoke to people, to the internet. I believe that I will soon return to the streets again and speak even stronger than I did before.

Roelof
Mar 27th 2008, 10:02 AM
I post what I do, not because man taught me, but due to a call from the Lord. I was saved at 15, and knew soon thereafter that God would one day have me teach scripture. I began to study and study and pray - just God, my bible and me working together. I was told over the years by strangers also- of this calling. God sent me from the streets and stores where I spoke to people, to the internet. I believe that I will soon return to the streets again and speak even stronger than I did before.

May the Spirit of God guide and protect you.

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 12:37 PM
May the Spirit of God guide and protect you.

Geesh! Thanks! I was going to erase most of what I had just written.

moonglow
Mar 28th 2008, 02:22 PM
I read you there Moonglow. Trying to understand where some people are coming from with their POV's is like trying to read chinese with no translators around. Almost impossible. And I agree that maybe we should start incorporating our POV's (or to keep it short, what camp we fall into) and that may help a lot.

Personally, I stopped using the word rapture altogether because of that very reason you have said. So many times, it is related to the pre-trib POV, and that causes misunderstandings between Amils and myself. On top of that, the word never appears in scripture. ANd so, I just threw away the word "rapture" and inserted "The Gathering" and "The Quickening" (which means the same thing, but has that "Highlander" feel to it). At least if someone ask me what it is, I have a chance to explain what it is and how it differs from what is generally taught as the rapture. That way, I can have the person reading my posts focus on what I have to say rather than attempting to put me into one camp or another.

Well, hopefully, we can cause this conversation to spread, and maybe everyone in here will realize what is happening and change their wording to suit their actual POV, and the discussions can evolve from the circular arguments and the name-calling that ensues from it, to the type of discussions that will properly prepare us for the coming season of storms.

Very good. My problem is when I don't know someone's views and can't place it (some I can because I know them pretty well...but for someone new to this, many of these posts by us probably make little sense)..I also cannot figure out what they are talking about simply because I really don't know what their views are. Then there are some who's views don't fit into any label which is fine, they just need to say this...it would save alot of confusion for sure!

God bless

moonglow
Mar 28th 2008, 02:25 PM
Geesh! Thanks! I was going to erase most of what I had just written.

No reason to delete what you wrote! I have read your story before anyway...:hug: You posted to the topic at hand honestly and that is what I want on here. :)

God bless

haybark
Mar 28th 2008, 06:37 PM
Moonglow,

This is a great post, and by the number of responses others have thought so as well. I always followed what I had been taught about the end time events. I never really delved deep into the subject but had read some books on it adn basically went along with the pre-trib view.

About ten years ago, as I was reading Matthew 24 something began to click with me adn the Lord opened up my eyes to what the plain meaning of the text was saying. I read it and re-read it. I thought, according to what Jesus was teaching His disciples, there cannot be a pre-trib rapture.

I saw the three distinct questions that the disciples posed to Jesus; 1. "when shall these things be," 2. "what shall be the sign of they coming," 2 "and of the end of the age." What astounded me more than anything was the fact Jesus was very transparent with them on the issue and answered thier questions. Two weeks or so later, I came across 2 Thess. 2 and the Holy Spirit quickened me again, and showed me what must take place first before the day of the Lord even comes.

Those two revelations totally changed my understanding of the end times. I don't think I even knew anybody that I was in fellowship with that even held this view. but it has begun a journey for me of discovery and revelation of what the Lord is intending to do in the midst of the darkest hours the earth has ever seen. it's no less than the Isaiah 60 reality: when the darkness covers the earth, and deep darkness the peoples, the Lord will be using the time to purge and purify a church to bring in the harvest of the ages and to prepare the way for the millinial reign of Christ.

I believe with all my heart we are right now entering into the very intial stages of what will begin to set the stage for the rise of antichrist. this will unfold over several years, but it will be a great upheaval in evry way imaginable. Social, financhal, political, and even nature itself realing under the weight of the consequence of our sins raching thier maturity in the earth. (nature itself is groaning and travailing together until this day. Rm. 8:22) creation itself is awaiting the revelation of teh sons of God, a fullness of times that I believe will be birthed through the travail we see taking hold of the earth in this very hour. These are the birth pangs, but they are birthing the kingdom of God in the earth. that kingdom will come through the church militant. It's the revelation of Jesus Christ through His body, the church. A light shining into the darkness of the hour!!

I'll back down, I beginning to preach. But this is what I believe, not because a man taught me, (though I respect all men, especially those who have labored in the gospel and the word to show themselves approved UNTO GOD. I am able to learn from all, adn I do, but listen for the witness and voice of the Holy Spirit.) but the Lord.

I send my greetings to you moonglow, it seems you have been apart of this board for a long time. I am just a day into this, but I am excited to be sharing with all of you here!

Blessings!!

~Haybark

ScottJohnson
Mar 28th 2008, 09:45 PM
I hold to an amillennial/partial preterist view. I think that for me anyway, using scripture to interpret scripture is what led me to this way of thinking. While I will do my best to interpret the OT and the book Revelation in the light of the Gospels and the Epistles, I have never been able to find any corroboration for Revelation 20:1-7 in either OT or NT which has led me to believe this passage like much of Revelation carries a symbolic meaning.

Roelof
Mar 30th 2008, 05:43 AM
My studies made me believe that we already live in the "End of the End Times"

“Daniel was then told to protect the message received so that it could be read in later times. The time of the end is aptly described as a day when knowledge shall be increased, namely our modern computer era.” (Daniel 12:4, KJV Bible Commentary)

Here follows an extract from the book of John Hagee, "From Daniel to Doomsday:"
“The literal translation of Dan. 12:4 indicates that during the end times, an explosion of knowledge will occur. We are living in that generation.”

IBM launched its first personal computer (PC) in 1981, a first in the world. Microsoft launched MS-DOS in 1981, the operating system for IBM’s PC.

The World Wide Web (www) was created in 1989 by Sir Tim Berners-Lee, working at CERN in Switzerland. Since 1989 the Internet has led to an explosion of knowledge.

We are living in the “End of the End Times” !!!

ScottJohnson
Mar 30th 2008, 01:13 PM
I think that the Bible makes it clear that we've been in the "end times" since ascension of Christ and the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, in the first century.

Heb 1:2
(2) in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;

Act_2:17; Gal_4:4; 2Pe_3:3; Jud_1:18

moonglow
Mar 30th 2008, 01:40 PM
Moonglow,

This is a great post, and by the number of responses others have thought so as well. I always followed what I had been taught about the end time events. I never really delved deep into the subject but had read some books on it adn basically went along with the pre-trib view.

About ten years ago, as I was reading Matthew 24 something began to click with me adn the Lord opened up my eyes to what the plain meaning of the text was saying. I read it and re-read it. I thought, according to what Jesus was teaching His disciples, there cannot be a pre-trib rapture.

I saw the three distinct questions that the disciples posed to Jesus; 1. "when shall these things be," 2. "what shall be the sign of they coming," 2 "and of the end of the age." What astounded me more than anything was the fact Jesus was very transparent with them on the issue and answered thier questions. Two weeks or so later, I came across 2 Thess. 2 and the Holy Spirit quickened me again, and showed me what must take place first before the day of the Lord even comes.

Those two revelations totally changed my understanding of the end times. I don't think I even knew anybody that I was in fellowship with that even held this view. but it has begun a journey for me of discovery and revelation of what the Lord is intending to do in the midst of the darkest hours the earth has ever seen. it's no less than the Isaiah 60 reality: when the darkness covers the earth, and deep darkness the peoples, the Lord will be using the time to purge and purify a church to bring in the harvest of the ages and to prepare the way for the millinial reign of Christ.

I believe with all my heart we are right now entering into the very intial stages of what will begin to set the stage for the rise of antichrist. this will unfold over several years, but it will be a great upheaval in evry way imaginable. Social, financhal, political, and even nature itself realing under the weight of the consequence of our sins raching thier maturity in the earth. (nature itself is groaning and travailing together until this day. Rm. 8:22) creation itself is awaiting the revelation of teh sons of God, a fullness of times that I believe will be birthed through the travail we see taking hold of the earth in this very hour. These are the birth pangs, but they are birthing the kingdom of God in the earth. that kingdom will come through the church militant. It's the revelation of Jesus Christ through His body, the church. A light shining into the darkness of the hour!!

I'll back down, I beginning to preach. But this is what I believe, not because a man taught me, (though I respect all men, especially those who have labored in the gospel and the word to show themselves approved UNTO GOD. I am able to learn from all, adn I do, but listen for the witness and voice of the Holy Spirit.) but the Lord.

I send my greetings to you moonglow, it seems you have been apart of this board for a long time. I am just a day into this, but I am excited to be sharing with all of you here!

Blessings!!

~Haybark

Hey nice to meet you and welcome to the board! :) Thanks for sharing that with us...its very interesting to me to see how others have come to their understanding about the end times.

I hope you enjoy the fellowship on here and make alot of new friends. :)

God bless

Rookie78
Oct 8th 2008, 08:38 PM
Who or what is the restrainer of II Thess. 2:6-7? Could this be anyone but the Holy Spirit? It seems He has to be out of the picture for a time before the anti christ is revealed. This can occur either pre-trib or mid-trib, but not post -trib.

third hero
Oct 9th 2008, 10:03 AM
Who or what is the restrainer of II Thess. 2:6-7? Could this be anyone but the Holy Spirit? It seems He has to be out of the picture for a time before the anti christ is revealed. This can occur either pre-trib or mid-trib, but not post -trib.

Start a new thread, and ask this question there. I am certain that this question is off topic, and will probably not be answered in this thread.

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 02:56 PM
Who or what is the restrainer of II Thess. 2:6-7? Could this be anyone but the Holy Spirit? It seems He has to be out of the picture for a time before the anti christ is revealed. This can occur either pre-trib or mid-trib, but not post -trib.

Yea this is an old thread I started back in February and your question is not easily answered...starting a new thread on it would be a good idea.

God bless