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the sinner
Feb 23rd 2008, 01:37 AM
It is my humble opinion, that the high priest of the Jews, in Paul's day, was the man whose number is 666, for the following reasons;

1. The events prophesied were to be "soon;" [Rev 1:1]

2. Saul of Tarsus had reason to believe he was doing God a service, when he persued Christians for arrest, trial, and death. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." [John 16:2]

And though Saul of Tarsus killed Christians, he proclaimed his own innocence. This cannot be explained away by simply saying "I didn't know." "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men." [Acts 20:26]

3. WHEN THE HIGH PRIEST SPOKE, he was the only man alive who knew whether his message was from God, or from himself. The High priest was the spokesman for God, before the Hebrew nation: "But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he NOT OF HIMSELF: but BEING HIGH PRIEST that year, HE PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." [John 11:46-52]

4. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS IN AT THE BEGINNING OF PERSECUTION
The High priest was involved in the developement of the persecution which followed the first preaching of the gospel, in Acts the second chapter. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas THE HIGH PRIEST, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel." [Acts 4:5-8]

5. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS WITH THOSE WHO ARRESTED THE APOSTLES: "Then THE HIGH PRIEST rose up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." [Acts 5;17]

6. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO CALLED THE COUNCIL - "And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But THE HIGH PRIEST came, and they that were with him, AND CALLED THE COUNCIL together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought. 24 Now when THE HIGH PRIEST and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 27...and THE HIGH PRIEST asked them," [Acts 5:21-27]

7. AND IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO WITNESSED THE DEATH OF STEPHEN
At the preaching of Stephen, and his subsequent death, the High Priest was witness: "Then said THE HIGH PRIEST, Are these things so? 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." [Acts 7:1,57-59]

8. SAUL OF TARSUS HAD LOST FAMILY MEMBERS TO HERESY
SAUL OF TARSUS had heard that family members were being drawn away into heresy, and sought out authority from the High Priest to stop it: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." [Acts 24:14] "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." [Rom 16:7]

9. IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED, FOR ARREST AUTHORITY
"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto THE HIGH PRIEST, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." [Acts 9:1-2]

10. AND IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHENTICATION
"As also THE HIGH PRIEST doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished." [Acts 22:5]

11. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO TURNED AGAINST PAUL THE APOSTLE
It was the High Priest who testified against Paul to the Roman authorities. "And after five days Ananias THE HIGH PRIEST descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 25:2 Then THE HIGH PRIEST and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him," [Acts 24:1; 25:1]

12. IT WAS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHORITY
Paul testified as to whence his authority: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," [Acts 26:10-12]

CONCLUSION: The High Priest was the only man who could possibly qualify to fulfill the prophecies relating to the man whose number is 666. Man was created the sixth day = 6. The Priests (6) were the closest to God (God being 7, or perfection), and the High Priest was the highest of the priests = 6. Thus 6+6+6 or 666

What think ye?

threebigrocks
Feb 23rd 2008, 01:41 AM
This is better suited to End Times Chat - moving it there for continued discussion.

Clifton
Feb 23rd 2008, 02:54 AM
It is my humble opinion, that the high priest of the Jews, in Paul's day, was the man whose number is 666, for the following reasons;

1. The events prophesied were to be "soon;" [Rev 1:1]


It is a common misconception that Revelation 1:1 says that, but it does not say anything of the sort in the Greek New Testaments. I am aware that some English translations have failed to translate that verse properly (usually, their dropping of translating the Greek word "en" which is a preposition to the Greek Noun "taxei"). What it means is that "when" these things occur, they will occur "quickly", "with speed / suddenness / quickness." The time will be short when compared to thousands of years.

(1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that are to occur with speed[1], in future ages[2], which he sent and made known by his angel[3] to his servant, John,
(2) who testified to God’s word, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, about everything that he saw, both the things that are[4] and those that must happen after these.

Footnotes:

[1] Things that are to occur with speed: Or, quickness, suddenness . The Greek here is ταχει and may be rendered several ways. Here it means something that occurs with a suddenness, not something that "will happen right away", unless, depending upon the context, an instruction is given to do it ‘right away’. The whole phrase is the same as that at #/LXX Daniel 2:28 [LXX]. Whether this is an interpretative paraphrase or just the borrowing of a phrase is left to the reader. The prophetic context of #Daniel 2$ may refer to those matters which occur near the end of the vision. Another issue here, is that The Seer’s knowledge of Greek in not fluent, so εν ταχει may be a term he only knew as of ‘fast, suddenness, etc.’. The term “with speed” here, is translated from the Greek expression, “eν ταχει”.

[2] Arabic version has this phrase.

[3] or, messenger (here and wherever angel is mentioned)

[4] “the things that are” not in TR and NU, but is in the Byzantine version, and is conveyed in 1:19.

---


2. Saul of Tarsus had reason to believe he was doing God a service, when he persued Christians for arrest, trial, and death. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." [John 16:2]

And though Saul of Tarsus killed Christians, he proclaimed his own innocence. This cannot be explained away by simply saying "I didn't know." "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men." [Acts 20:26]

3. WHEN THE HIGH PRIEST SPOKE, he was the only man alive who knew whether his message was from God, or from himself. The High priest was the spokesman for God, before the Hebrew nation: "But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he NOT OF HIMSELF: but BEING HIGH PRIEST that year, HE PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." [John 11:46-52]

4. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS IN AT THE BEGINNING OF PERSECUTION
The High priest was involved in the developement of the persecution which followed the first preaching of the gospel, in Acts the second chapter. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas THE HIGH PRIEST, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel." [Acts 4:5-8]

5. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS WITH THOSE WHO ARRESTED THE APOSTLES: "Then THE HIGH PRIEST rose up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." [Acts 5;17]

6. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO CALLED THE COUNCIL - "And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But THE HIGH PRIEST came, and they that were with him, AND CALLED THE COUNCIL together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought. 24 Now when THE HIGH PRIEST and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 27...and THE HIGH PRIEST asked them," [Acts 5:21-27]

7. AND IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO WITNESSED THE DEATH OF STEPHEN
At the preaching of Stephen, and his subsequent death, the High Priest was witness: "Then said THE HIGH PRIEST, Are these things so? 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." [Acts 7:1,57-59]

8. SAUL OF TARSUS HAD LOST FAMILY MEMBERS TO HERESY
SAUL OF TARSUS had heard that family members were being drawn away into heresy, and sought out authority from the High Priest to stop it: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." [Acts 24:14] "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." [Rom 16:7]

9. IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED, FOR ARREST AUTHORITY
"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto THE HIGH PRIEST, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." [Acts 9:1-2]

10. AND IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHENTICATION
"As also THE HIGH PRIEST doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished." [Acts 22:5]

11. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO TURNED AGAINST PAUL THE APOSTLE
It was the High Priest who testified against Paul to the Roman authorities. "And after five days Ananias THE HIGH PRIEST descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 25:2 Then THE HIGH PRIEST and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him," [Acts 24:1; 25:1]

12. IT WAS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHORITY
Paul testified as to whence his authority: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," [Acts 26:10-12]

CONCLUSION: The High Priest was the only man who could possibly qualify to fulfill the prophecies relating to the man whose number is 666. Man was created the sixth day = 6. The Priests (6) were the closest to God (God being 7, or perfection), and the High Priest was the highest of the priests = 6. Thus 6+6+6 or 666

What think ye?The Seer (aka John The Presbyter) had used freely not only his own visions of various dates, but also Jewish and Christian sources of Neronic and Vespasianic dates in the presentation of his great theme. But unhappily the prophet did not live to revise his work, or even to put the materials of 20:4-22 into their legitimate order. Much of Revelation is in disarray (with the exception of chaps. 1, 4, 5, 6 and 10 {chap. 8 is fine when the interpolations are removed]), but as for the 666 ([B]616 is an alternate reading in some MSS), the source used to convey those words (and/or visions) was Neronic, meaning, the name used was "Neron", whose name in Hebrew add up to 666, and 616 in using the Latin variation spelling of his name, "Nero."

As for The Book Of Acts, it is seen by some as "a subversion of the Book of Galations." (The "related" accounts in the 2 books do not agree, among other issues, thus, Galatians wins the votes.;))

As for Paul, (I just wrote this elsewhere tonight),
you can find his real conversion in:
1 Corinthians 15:1-9
Galatians 1:13-24

Keep on shining!:)

Lighthope
Feb 23rd 2008, 04:51 AM
It is a common misconception that Revelation 1:1 says that, but it does not say anything of the sort in the Greek New Testaments. I am aware that some English translations have failed to translate that verse properly (usually, their dropping of translating the Greek word "en" which is a preposition to the Greek Noun "taxei"). What it means is that "when" these things occur, they will occur "quickly", "with speed / suddenness / quickness." The time will be short when compared to thousands of years.

(1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that are to occur with speed[1]

I really don't see the difference. An event to come "en" (with quickness or speed (tachos) in relation to time(en)) is reasonably translated as "soon". We also have the example of the apostles and disciples themselves who all acted as if they believed that Jesus was going to return in their lifetime. In fact, Paul (I think it was Paul) had to comfort the recipients of one of his letters, as they were beginning to grow restless, a number of them having "fallen asleep".

I think our problem is that we don't really understand God's sense of time. "Soon", unfortunately for us, can mean quite a lot of time on Earth. That is why Revelation 20:3 should send shivers down everyone's spine.

"And after that [Satan] must be loosed a little season."

A little season?! What does that mean? Three months? Nice try. I get the feeling this is going to be a rough time between the Millennial Age and the Kingdom Age.

Anyway, we should be careful when trying to figure out time spans unless we are told specifically what it means.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - "If we accept that a mother can kill her own child, how can we tell people not to kill each other?" - Mother Teresa on abortion

Roelof
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:35 AM
I would like to give comments from my Study Bible:

The Beast from the Sea: Revelation 13 (KJV Bible Commentary)

13:18. His number is Six hundred threescore and six (666). It is almost impossible to list the number of suggestions for 666; they range all the way from Nero in ancient Rome to persons in this day. Probably the most that can be gleaned is that since seven is the biblical number of completion, six, which falls short of it, is man’s failure at its worst. Man’s worship of man is, indeed, spiritual insanity to the highest degree.

Clifton
Feb 23rd 2008, 03:11 PM
I really don't see the difference. An event to come "en" (with quickness or speed (tachos) in relation to time(en)) is reasonably translated as "soon".

ταχος is not found the Greek New Testament I checked. That is a nominative case noun, singular, neuter gender. That’s the lexicon/dictionary “entry” for it’s own form and other forms as well, which are governed by other factors such as PREPositions, etc., and a couple of times, the word by itself, as to whether it is in the GENITIVE CASE (e.g. “of”) or DATIVE CASE. It is common for a Greek Dictionary to give nouns in their nominative case and singular number forms.

Also, the word “soon” is an Adverb, as well as “shortly” – there are already Greek Adverb forms of the stem ταχ, as well as other Greek Adverbs for that. In Revelation 1:1, here’s the clause:

εν <1722> {PREP} ταχει <5034> {N-DSN} <- {Noun-Dative Singular Neuter}.

So, reading the Greek, there is a difference - BTW, εν (en) does not mean "an event to come" or ‘relation’ to time from “this time (of writing / speaking) to another time”; εν is a PREPosition, basically meaning "in, by, with, through, etc." - furthermore, the noun ταχει (pronounced "tax-ay") itself is a DATIVE CASE, and even the word by itself means a supplied English word of "with", "by", "in", "for", so the Greek εν appears here to give ταχει a greater force since it itself is in the DATIVE. Thus, even without the Greek εν, ταχει by itself here word mean "in / with quickness, suddenness / speed." Also, besides the word "soon" being an Adverb, there are already Greek words for that: Adverbs παραχρημα (I believe this is the word that most folks are mistakenly reading the text as using, or adding to it), τανυν, μηκετι, νυν or ευθεως. Since the Greek εν is here, and since ταχει is a DATIVE CASE form, then when restoring the Greek εν into the text, without changing the English used for ταχει in some translations, it would read like:

“in /with shortly /swiftly / soon / shortly / quickly”, which does not make good English sense;).

Not all English translations fail on a good reading and replace a noun with an adverb for Revelation 1:1 (there are also two or more other places where Strong’s #5034 occurs in Revelation as well);

1 ¶ (VW) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His servants; things which must happen quickly. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

1 ¶ (LIT) A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show to His slaves things which must occur quickly. And He signified sending through His angel to His slave, John,

I can understand how the English Reader might somehow inadvertently changed the text to read “things which must [B]SOON happen/occur quickly”. But “quickly” here means, WHEN they do happen, they will happen quickly – swiftly – suddenly. As you correctly point out with your “little season” comments, you can understand that “by comparison”, that when the things happen which the Noun ταχει is referring to, they will happen in “a short manner of time”, in comparison of the time of the Earth in its current state.

1 ¶ (ALT) [The] revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show to His slaves what [things are] necessary to occur with quickness. And He made [it] known, having sent through His angel to His slave John,

That translation, ALT (Analytical Literal Translation), provides one of the best readings. When one continues to increase their acquaintance with Koine Greek, they will recognize this, and will not need to jump in a New York TAXI or have a round with Mike Tyson to understand the meaning of "with speed":D. And anyone can also check with any Greek Grammar resources to see this as well. ;)

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 03:18 PM
It is my humble opinion, that the high priest of the Jews, in Paul's day, was the man whose number is 666, for the following reasons;

1. The events prophesied were to be "soon;" [Rev 1:1]

2. Saul of Tarsus had reason to believe he was doing God a service, when he persued Christians for arrest, trial, and death. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." [John 16:2]

And though Saul of Tarsus killed Christians, he proclaimed his own innocence. This cannot be explained away by simply saying "I didn't know." "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men." [Acts 20:26]

3. WHEN THE HIGH PRIEST SPOKE, he was the only man alive who knew whether his message was from God, or from himself. The High priest was the spokesman for God, before the Hebrew nation: "But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he NOT OF HIMSELF: but BEING HIGH PRIEST that year, HE PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." [John 11:46-52]

4. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS IN AT THE BEGINNING OF PERSECUTION
The High priest was involved in the developement of the persecution which followed the first preaching of the gospel, in Acts the second chapter. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas THE HIGH PRIEST, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel." [Acts 4:5-8]

5. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS WITH THOSE WHO ARRESTED THE APOSTLES: "Then THE HIGH PRIEST rose up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." [Acts 5;17]

6. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO CALLED THE COUNCIL - "And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But THE HIGH PRIEST came, and they that were with him, AND CALLED THE COUNCIL together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought. 24 Now when THE HIGH PRIEST and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 27...and THE HIGH PRIEST asked them," [Acts 5:21-27]

7. AND IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO WITNESSED THE DEATH OF STEPHEN
At the preaching of Stephen, and his subsequent death, the High Priest was witness: "Then said THE HIGH PRIEST, Are these things so? 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." [Acts 7:1,57-59]

8. SAUL OF TARSUS HAD LOST FAMILY MEMBERS TO HERESY
SAUL OF TARSUS had heard that family members were being drawn away into heresy, and sought out authority from the High Priest to stop it: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." [Acts 24:14] "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." [Rom 16:7]

9. IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED, FOR ARREST AUTHORITY
"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto THE HIGH PRIEST, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." [Acts 9:1-2]

10. AND IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHENTICATION
"As also THE HIGH PRIEST doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished." [Acts 22:5]

11. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO TURNED AGAINST PAUL THE APOSTLE
It was the High Priest who testified against Paul to the Roman authorities. "And after five days Ananias THE HIGH PRIEST descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 25:2 Then THE HIGH PRIEST and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him," [Acts 24:1; 25:1]

12. IT WAS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHORITY
Paul testified as to whence his authority: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," [Acts 26:10-12]

CONCLUSION: The High Priest was the only man who could possibly qualify to fulfill the prophecies relating to the man whose number is 666. Man was created the sixth day = 6. The Priests (6) were the closest to God (God being 7, or perfection), and the High Priest was the highest of the priests = 6. Thus 6+6+6 or 666

What think ye?

Where therefore would you put the beast and the false prophet that will be here at the return of Christ, and destroyed at that time.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

the sinner
Feb 23rd 2008, 04:03 PM
Where therefore would you put the beast and the false prophet that will be here at the return of Christ, and destroyed at that time.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

If the battle referenced is literal, Your point is well made. If however, the battle is figurative, or in fact if it takes place after the end of life as we know it, then the High priest of the Jews would again lead the fray against the people of God.

Depends upon literal or figurative use of "beast;" "kings of earth" (Which kings?); and the army of him who sat on his horse, at what point in time is the sitting on the horse?

Too much to determine without further evidential examination. Also, GOOD POINT!

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:02 PM
If the battle referenced is literal, Your point is well made. If however, the battle is figurative, or in fact if it takes place after the end of life as we know it, then the High priest of the Jews would again lead the fray against the people of God.

Depends upon literal or figurative use of "beast;" "kings of earth" (Which kings?); and the army of him who sat on his horse, at what point in time is the sitting on the horse?

Too much to determine without further evidential examination. Also, GOOD POINT!

Do we believe that Armageddon will happen, and that this is just before the 7th trumpet when Christ will return to destroy the beast and the false prophet etc?

Rev 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

If Armageddon takes place before Jesus returns then can it be applied to the past?

Lighthope
Feb 23rd 2008, 06:20 PM
I can understand how the English Reader might somehow inadvertently changed the text to read “things which must SOON happen/occur quickly”. But “quickly” here means, WHEN they do happen, they will happen quickly – swiftly – suddenly.

That is not how the early disciples understood that passage. And since they had, and used, the original Greek, we can rely on their interpretation. And their interpretation indicates that "soon" is the correct English translation. As I pointed out, the early disciples were becoming quite concerned that Jesus had not yet returned and they were starting to get old.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.

2Witnesses
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:06 PM
It is my humble opinion, that the high priest of the Jews, in Paul's day, was the man whose number is 666, for the following reasons;

1. The events prophesied were to be "soon;" [Rev 1:1]

2. Saul of Tarsus had reason to believe he was doing God a service, when he persued Christians for arrest, trial, and death. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." [John 16:2]

And though Saul of Tarsus killed Christians, he proclaimed his own innocence. This cannot be explained away by simply saying "I didn't know." "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men." [Acts 20:26]

3. WHEN THE HIGH PRIEST SPOKE, he was the only man alive who knew whether his message was from God, or from himself. The High priest was the spokesman for God, before the Hebrew nation: "But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he NOT OF HIMSELF: but BEING HIGH PRIEST that year, HE PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." [John 11:46-52]

4. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS IN AT THE BEGINNING OF PERSECUTION
The High priest was involved in the developement of the persecution which followed the first preaching of the gospel, in Acts the second chapter. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas THE HIGH PRIEST, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel." [Acts 4:5-8]

5. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS WITH THOSE WHO ARRESTED THE APOSTLES: "Then THE HIGH PRIEST rose up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." [Acts 5;17]

6. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO CALLED THE COUNCIL - "And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But THE HIGH PRIEST came, and they that were with him, AND CALLED THE COUNCIL together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought. 24 Now when THE HIGH PRIEST and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 27...and THE HIGH PRIEST asked them," [Acts 5:21-27]

7. AND IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO WITNESSED THE DEATH OF STEPHEN
At the preaching of Stephen, and his subsequent death, the High Priest was witness: "Then said THE HIGH PRIEST, Are these things so? 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." [Acts 7:1,57-59]

8. SAUL OF TARSUS HAD LOST FAMILY MEMBERS TO HERESY
SAUL OF TARSUS had heard that family members were being drawn away into heresy, and sought out authority from the High Priest to stop it: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." [Acts 24:14] "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." [Rom 16:7]

9. IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED, FOR ARREST AUTHORITY
"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto THE HIGH PRIEST, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." [Acts 9:1-2]

10. AND IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHENTICATION
"As also THE HIGH PRIEST doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished." [Acts 22:5]

11. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO TURNED AGAINST PAUL THE APOSTLE
It was the High Priest who testified against Paul to the Roman authorities. "And after five days Ananias THE HIGH PRIEST descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 25:2 Then THE HIGH PRIEST and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him," [Acts 24:1; 25:1]

12. IT WAS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHORITY
Paul testified as to whence his authority: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," [Acts 26:10-12]

CONCLUSION: The High Priest was the only man who could possibly qualify to fulfill the prophecies relating to the man whose number is 666. Man was created the sixth day = 6. The Priests (6) were the closest to God (God being 7, or perfection), and the High Priest was the highest of the priests = 6. Thus 6+6+6 or 666

What think ye?

Sinner,

'666' is, though there may be more involved, a reference to the fact the AC will claim to be the Jewish Messiah, the seed of David. And this is so in that the only other place it is used is in reference to Solomon, the son of David, the man of peace who would build the temple.

AC will also build the temple. But his false prophet, the Jewish High Priest, will honor him. And this FP is as the messenger of the covenant in Malachi. And he will cause all to be marked with the 666 of the AC.

2Witnesses

Clifton
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:40 PM
That is not how the early disciples understood that passage. And since they had, and used, the original Greek, we can rely on their interpretation. And their interpretation indicates that "soon" is the correct English translation. As I pointed out, the early disciples were becoming quite concerned that Jesus had not yet returned and they were starting to get old.

Your statement "their interpretation indicates that "soon" is false in relation to Revelation and as has already been pointed out, is in error - re: grammatical error. And besides, what "disciples" are you referring to? Revelation was not compiled until the mid to late 90's A.D. so the early disciples were gone, at least most of them (then there is the issue of DSS Revelation). What you refer to as "the original Greek" was "The Koine Greek", of which I've been quite acquainted with for over a dozen years, and by no means did it (εν ταχει), or has it ever meant "with soon" (you dropped the Greek "εν" here and your rendering is nonsensical when "εν" is restored), and "Soon" is not a noun, it is an adverb, thus, is by no means a dative. Plus, there are no significant variants (http://www.dtl.org/alt/variants/revelation.htm) for Revelation 1:1 - if one wish the changes the underlying Greek into an unsupported reading, or just change the grammar and meaning of the words and clauses, that mangles up other Greek Scripture passages. I have provided the Koine Greek of it, and have noted that it can be confirmed by the experts on Greek Grammar and their resources. In this place, 1:1, it's not open for "private interpretation" and is not "optional": it says what it says and is plain and simple in Greek and to Greeks and those acquainted with Greek and are fluent in it.

If you drop "εν" from Luke 22:49, Mark 4:2, Acts 1:3, and John 1:26, they would sound a bit silly (Mark 4:2 would not "look" so bad, but by dropping "εν", it changes the context"). Shall I present those verses here without the "εν"?

I'm curious - and I wish to learn other's positions, so please help me out: why do you seek to omit the Greek preposition "en" and change a noun into an adverb (which all together is a different Greek word)? What purpose does it serve for you? What difference does it make to you?:hmm:

moonglow
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:57 PM
Sinner,

'666' is, though there may be more involved, a reference to the fact the AC will claim to be the Jewish Messiah, the seed of David. And this is so in that the only other place it is used is in reference to Solomon, the son of David, the man of peace who would build the temple.

AC will also build the temple. But his false prophet, the Jewish High Priest, will honor him. And this FP is as the messenger of the covenant in Malachi. And he will cause all to be marked with the 666 of the AC.

2Witnesses

Where are the scriptures for any of this? Where does it say another temple will be built...all the OT scriptures about the temple being rebuilt after the Babylons destroyed it already came true and it was rebuild then destroyed again by the Romans. Where are the scriptures that the antichrist will claim to be the Jewish Messiah, the seed of David? thanks!

John wrote Revelation to the early Christians who spoke either greek or hebrew...in their alphabet each letter was numbered. They could literally write a sentence using numbers only and it be readable to others that knew their language. The Hebrews also omitted vowels too. I believe Revelation was written before 90 AD ...before 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem 'trodden under by the gentiles"...would be unbelievable that John would not mention these events if they had already happened. It would be like someone writing our current history now and leaving out what happened on 911.

John wrote it in symbolic terms so the Romans would not understand it and he relates the symbolism to the OT wording. Likewise I believe he used a number to 'name' the beast instead of just saying the beast name because it would have gotten him killed. Nero's name adds up to 666 in Hebrew..616 in greek. This is why in some bibles you see a footnote saying 'some manuscripts have it as 616) both languages used numbers like this. If the Romans got their hands on the scroll it would make no sense to them since they didn't know either language. But the believers would know. John was trying to warn them as to who the beast was. Nero demanded he be worshiped as a god, or die. He slaughter a huge number of Christians in the most gruesome ways possible. He fed them to the lions...wrapped them in tar and set them on fire, cut out their tongues. The list of horrors he did goes on and on. He had kicked his own pregnant wife to death, had his mother killed and every relative killed ...he was very paranoid people were out to kill him!

He fits the description of the beast in Revelation 13 for sure.

Here is an example of what I am talking about:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Eight/Hebrew_Gematria/hebrew_gematria.html
(http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Eight/Hebrew_Gematria/hebrew_gematria.html)Hebrew Gematria
finding numberical relationships between words and phrases

God bless

markdrums
Feb 23rd 2008, 08:09 PM
Concerning, Nero / The Number of the Beast / & the date of Revelation being written, here's a quote by the late Robet Young, Bible Scholar.
Young shares this belief on Revelation's dating with many others....

"Dating Revelation"
"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero).

Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date."

So, there are numerous writings, & people who say that Irenaeus' statement was mis-interpreted as "Domitian".

Like I said,
Food for thought... / Details for debate.

;)

Clifton
Feb 23rd 2008, 09:26 PM
Concerning, Nero / The Number of the Beast / & the date of Revelation being written, here's a quote by the late Robet Young, Bible Scholar.
Young shares this belief on Revelation's dating with many others....

"Dating Revelation"
"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero).

As I have already stated in my 1st post in this thread, The Seer (aka John The Presbyter) had used freely not only his own visions of various dates, but also Jewish and Christian sources of Neronic and Vespasianic dates in the presentation of his great theme... but as for the 666 (616 is an alternate reading in some MSS), the source used to convey those words (and/or visions) was Neronic, meaning, the name used was "Neron", whose name in Hebrew add up to 666, and 616 in using the Latin variation spelling of his name, "Nero."

Materials used by The Seer for his themes ran anywhere from thousands of years B.C. on up to the 90's A.D. - then of course, there is DSS Revelation (http://clifton-hodges.com/faith/Revelation_Q_Columns.pdf) (which exhibits a pre-Christian text with much text underlying the Bible Revelation) - so it is more or less, better said "when the book was complied" (basically, it was first "penned" over several centuries prior to 100 A.D., in other texts) - the fact that materials used of various times in the 1st Century causes these "shifts" in "date determinations". Example for The first few verses of Chap. 12:

"...The vision goes back before the birth of Christ, and tells with mythological coloring how Satan sought to destroy Christ, and, after His ascension, the Church itself. In setting forth his theme The Seer has borrowed the main part of this chapter from Jewish sources, which had in turn been derived from international sources, and has adapted them -- though not wholly -- to their new and Christian setting..."

It relates also to Mary with the baby fleeing elsewhere due to Herod's attempt to kill the child. Thus, can we assume that the Bible Revelation was compiled while Mary was in Egypt???;)

If you would like to know about the sources used, you can see this in 2 web pages:

http://www.dabar.org/RHCharles/Revelation/intro-%20VI.htm

http://www.dabar.org/RHCharles/Revelation/intro-VII.htm

These pages contains the introduction section of Volume 1 of A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John; R. H. Charles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._H._Charles) T. & T. Clark, 1920 (2 Volumes).

EXAMPLE ABSTRACT OF THE OUTLINES FROM THE ABOVE REFERENCED URL:
Chaps. 17-18 (71-79 A.D.). These chapters, though recast by our author to serve his own main purpose, preserve incongruous elements and traces of an earlier date. Thus 17:10-11 cannot be reasonably interpreted of a later time than Vespasian. And yet our author's additions in 17:8. 11, which refers to the demonic Nero coming up from the abyss, can only be explained by a Domitianic date. The sense is confused, but the date is clear. To leave this passage unaltered was an oversight on the part of our author. Similarly, 18:4 (see vol. ii. 96 sq.) postulates a Vespasianic date.

This is over 1000 pages worth between the two volumes. The copyright is expired and you can access the two volumes (in Acrobat Reader PDF Format) at:

Volume 1
http://www.archive.org/details/acriticalandexeg01charuoft

Volume 2
http://www.archive.org/details/acriticalandexeg02charuoft

The English Translation of Revelation is from pages 386 to 446 in Volume 2.

Charles' spent over 25 years in this work, and DOES give a list of the used sources, including a Critical Apparatus, etc.

Also, as has already been pointed out in the other thread in this forum (which I confirmed), Revelation 2:13 references the proto-martyr ANTIPAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum), which was martyred in 92 A.D.


Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date."

So, there are numerous writings, & people who say that Irenaeus' statement was mis-interpreted as "Domitian". This argument depends on ONE MS of a Handful that have been discovered, so the "stupidity" lies with the writer of this text. Besides, in the last quarter of the 2nd Century, Irenaeus spoke to people whom spoke to The Seer face to face, which works out well with a compilation date of the 90's A.D. (otherwise, putting John The Presbyter as an "earlier" individual would put these witnesses beyond a normal aged life, and/or too old to speak that plain) - and he (Irenaeus) was playing "guessing games" as to "whom" or "what" the Antichrist IS, or WILL BE, so he is a witness that this game was not over;

Not to mention, there is MORE than just Irenaeus - there are others including Papias.


Like I said,
Food for thought... / Details for debate.

;)Here's some food for thought:
Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Luis+De+Alcazar+%22&btnG=Google+Search) (1554-1613)

The founding father of preterism - but even his students did not attempt to back date the compilation of Revelation - that came about from offshoots of the Alcazar / Preterist system - a new system as of the 16th / 17th Century, and RCC was well pleased;).

Lighthope
Feb 24th 2008, 06:25 PM
Your statement "their interpretation indicates that "soon" is false in relation to Revelation and as has already been pointed out, is in error - re: grammatical error.

That does not seem to be the opinion of learned Greek translators.


And besides, what "disciples" are you referring to?

The same disciples who followed Jesus. The same disciples whom Paul had to comfort in one of his letters.


I'm curious - and I wish to learn other's positions, so please help me out: why do you seek to omit the Greek preposition "en" and change a noun into an adverb [COLOR=Sienna](which all together is a different Greek word)? What purpose does it serve for you? What difference does it make to you?:hmm:

I don't understand your question. I merely quoted from an interlinear translation.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - When kids ask why it's raining, tell them it is God crying. When they ask why He is crying, tell them it is probably something they did.

Clifton
Feb 24th 2008, 07:19 PM
That does not seem to be the opinion of learned Greek translators.

Quite the opposite for the most of them - as other scriptures with the phrase also points out - and I learn from them and from those primarily from Greece with over 50 years of experience in their ancestral language. I also study the sites of "learned Greek translators" as well.


The same disciples who followed Jesus. The same disciples whom Paul had to comfort in one of his letters.Paul did not write Revelation. Someone, believed to be a palestian Jew named John did. So your idea is that John lied to "comfort them"? Would not matter any way and would not change the meaning of "en taxei" - again, taxei is a noun, not an adverb. That and anything else you have stated does not change what the Greek says in the handful of Greek New Testaments I have, or the learning resources - otherwise, those speaking Koine Greek for 700+ years were speaking in unknown tongues and everybody was in confusion - sorry, but I cannot buy that, at all - I might buy that 666 represents Diego, Dora the Explorer's brother. <just kidding>


I don't understand your question. I merely quoted from an interlinear translation.Okay then - thanks for pointing that out - I was wondering if you were suggesting that certain events were gonna take a long time. Of course, from a contemporary historicist sense, that would be okay, IMO.

I noticed you used the word "Tachos" instead of "Taxei", (and this is NOT a bad thing), so you must not be very acquainted with Greek, but at least you have some knowledge of the dictionary entry words. But it takes more, like knowing about the clause constructions, governing words, and so on.

What interlinear do you refer to? Leaving out the renderings of Revelation 1:1 & 22:6, may I kindly ask, how does your interlinear render the following?

“ "I say to you, He will execute justice for them with quickness. Nevertheless, the Son of Humanity having come, will He find faith on the earth?"” (Luke 18:8 ALT)

“ And look! An angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shined in the prison cell. Then having struck the side of Peter, he raised him up, saying, "Get up with quickness!" And his chains fell off from his hands.” (Acts 12:7 ALT)

“ and I saw Him saying to me, ‘Hurry, and go out with quickness from Jerusalem, because they will not accept your witness about Me.’” (Acts 22:18 ALT)

“ Then indeed Festus answered that Paul is being kept in Caesarea, but that he himself is about to be going out to Caesarea with quickness.” (Acts 25:4 ALT)

“ Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet with quickness. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.” (Romans 16:20 ALT)

Also, did not Paul later on express that the final / last advent of Christ (aka His Return) was not gonna happen anytime soon? His first letter to the Thessalonians was misunderstood, so he followed up with a 2nd letter to them;

The early Christian writers recognized this, and they did not expect the 'return of Christ' in their lifetime, and awaited to go to sleep (death) and be taken at the time of his return - the theology with some of them was that the Earth had to run a 6000 year course first (their idea of one day = 1000 years in the process of creation).

the sinner
Feb 24th 2008, 11:44 PM
I stand ready to learn.

If the High Priest of the Jews is the beast whose number is the number of a man, and if he is destroyed after making war on the lamb and his army, and if it is a figureative war, or symbolic, and not as some suppose, realtime and physical, ...hmmm! Where was I going with this?

Anyway, I just think the High priest of the Jews makes an excellent candidate for the beast who has the number of a man; mainly because he set himself up in the temple of God and made his word mightier than the word of God, and nobody knew but him and God that he was not speaking for God.


II Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

ross3421
Feb 25th 2008, 03:23 AM
I stand ready to learn.

If the High Priest of the Jews is the beast whose number is the number of a man, and if he is destroyed after making war on the lamb and his army, and if it is a figureative war, or symbolic, and not as some suppose, realtime and physical, ...hmmm! Where was I going with this?

Anyway, I just think the High priest of the Jews makes an excellent candidate for the beast who has the number of a man; mainly because he set himself up in the temple of God and made his word mightier than the word of God, and nobody knew but him and God that he was not speaking for God.



II Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Then this would make the number of Christ 666 as well..........For he is the high priest.

A completion of the counterfeit.


Mark

2Witnesses
Feb 25th 2008, 04:50 AM
sinner,

I think you are leaving out the framework of the OT type, that office of the king, and office of the priest.


25 " 'O profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, 26 this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low. 27 A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin! It will not be restored until he comes to whom it rightfully belongs; to him I will give it.'
Ez 21.

The messiah the Jews look for is to be the son of David, not the son of Levy. And in Rev. 13, TWO Beasts are spoken of.

The first rise from the sea, from among the nations. This is the political. This is the revived head which was wounded in 70AD.

But then a beast rise from the 'land', that restored from the sword. And this will be the false prophet, the HP. And one claiming to be as Elijah.

I refer you to Malachi. John was the 'messenger of the covenant'. He was from Levy. And he was as Elijah.

2Witnesses http://www.habagministry.com

danield
Feb 25th 2008, 06:24 AM
You know I have often wondered if somehow the bible was referring to the computer or a man who manipulated computers when it was talking about 666 as the number of the AC. As we all know the computers are completely derived from 1’s or 0’s and every character we type is a manipulation from a sequence of those numbers. It has come to my mind several times that the AC could somehow be associated with some sort of manipulation of computer systems. I know it sounds far out but we really depend on these networks in many aspects of life. If somehow someone with evil intent got hold of some key components of our defense network, they could very well cause confusion and maybe get the upper hand during an attack. If a person succeeded in an assault like this it would be a unique label to attach to an individual when they emerged from a victory of a great conflict. I personally hold true that we do not understand revelations because much of it has not happened completely to date, and when it does happen it will be easy to understand by all. And here we are trying to tag a person with a Greek numerical representation of the number 666 or 616 depending on which version we hold true when all the while the bible is telling us that the man of sin will arise to power by some sort of manipulation of our computer system. We all know that we are not supposed to be able to buy or sell with out carrying the mark of the beast which will defiantly be controlled by some sort of computer system.

For those who think I am trying to label Bill Gates as a bad guy I am not! I am sure he is a wonderful person, but I just got finished watching Hal Lindsey and he was talking about an organized group that is developing a really bad virus that has caught the attention of the US government. This group of people who have developed this virus is not your everyday hacker but it was developed by a much larger well funded group. He held short of saying it was developed by a foreign government, but it would make sense that if we indeed fell into major war with another country we would have to deal with computer attacks from that opponent. You know the bible tells us in Rev 17:17 For God has put a plan into their minds, a plan that will carry out his purposes. Maybe this plan entails a detailed assault on our defense systems that enables him to get the upper hand during a critical time. And this is what is meant by the AC being known as a man of number, 666. Guys this is just a thought that I have had for a long time now so please forgive me if it is not biblically founded. And also please forgive me if I derailed this thread, I just did not want to start another thread with this silly idea.:B

God Bless you all!!

Lighthope
Feb 25th 2008, 05:50 PM
So your idea is that John lied to "comfort them"?

I never said that.


Would not matter any way and would not change the meaning of "en taxei" - again, taxei is a noun, not an adverb.

We're going way off on a tangent. Our discussion originally began when you said that Revelation 1:1 meant that the events would happen quickly, not that the events would happen "soon".

I disagree with your translation. I said that Greek is also properly translated as "soon" and is more in context with what the disciples believed.

I do not have the opinion that the events of Revelation will happen over a long time. I see no scriptural evidence that, once the events of Revelation begin, that they will occur over centuries. God's judgements in the past never take that long. They take a long time to start, but once started, it's warp speed!


The early Christian writers recognized this, and they did not expect the 'return of Christ' in their lifetime

This I must strongly disagree with. I have already given scriptural support for my opinion, so I won't repeat it here. Just because the early disciples were wrong doesn't mean that wasn't what they believed.


the theology with some of them was that the Earth had to run a 6000 year course first (their idea of one day = 1000 years in the process of creation).

This is a common misconception that for some reason runs rampant today. But I find no evidence whatsoever that the disciples believed in the 1 day = 1000 years theory.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - AOL is good for people who are brand new to the internet, but no one should be using America Online beyond the free trial period.

markdrums
Feb 25th 2008, 06:48 PM
Just a quick interjection on "1000 years / 1 day"
(I apologize in advance if this seems like it strays off-subject at first.... but I need to add some background info.)

;)

There's a lot of debate about what the number 1000 represents. Whether it's time, as in years, or years to days, etc.. or in qantity of "people or things".

Scripture tells us that to God, 1 days is 1000 years, & 1000 years is 1 day. The context here tells us that time in our understanding is sometimes irrelevant.

The number 1000 represents an unspecified length of time, or number of people, ... and so on.

When we read "The saints will reign with him 1000 years...." I personally don't see this as a literal 1000 year period. I believe it means (paraphrasing) They'll reign with him for quite a while, with no exact amount of time determined in our standards.

When we read 144,000 in Revelation, the significance is; the original 12 tribes of Israel, times the 12 apostles, times 1000 = meaning an innumerable amount of people. Not a literal 144,000 people, but LOTS & LOTS of them.

Revelation chapter 7 talks about this & explains it.
It mentions 144,000 sealed servants... (the 12 tribes..etc)
a few verses later, we find "A great multitude, which no man could number...."
This "Great Multitude" is the same 144,000 mentioned just a little earlier.
(read REV 7)

The context is, John is still describing the same group of people.
Not a different group.

However,
With the disciples expecting to see Jesus' prophecy fulfilled, "In their generation," and before some of them would taste death, this indicates a near future fulfillment in their time.

They would not have been thinking of the "1 day = 1000 years" context in this situation, but rather LITERALLY seeing the fulfillment that Jesus spoke of.

Clifton
Feb 25th 2008, 09:50 PM
I never said that.

We're going way off on a tangent. Our discussion originally began when you said that Revelation 1:1 meant that the events would happen quickly, not that the events would happen "soon".

I disagree with your translation. I said that Greek is also properly translated as "soon" and is more in context with what the disciples believed.

I do not have the opinion that the events of Revelation will happen over a long time. I see no scriptural evidence that, once the events of Revelation begin, that they will occur over centuries. God's judgements in the past never take that long. They take a long time to start, but once started, it's warp speed!

This I must strongly disagree with. I have already given scriptural support for my opinion, so I won't repeat it here. Just because the early disciples were wrong doesn't mean that wasn't what they believed.

This is a common misconception that for some reason runs rampant today. But I find no evidence whatsoever that the disciples believed in the 1 day = 1000 years theory.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - AOL is good for people who are brand new to the internet, but no one should be using America Online beyond the free trial period.

Reply rerouted to post 1552072 to a new thread due to topic difference(s).

Clifton
Feb 25th 2008, 09:53 PM
Just a quick interjection on "1000 years / 1 day"
(I apologize in advance if this seems like it strays off-subject at first.... but I need to add some background info.)

;)

They would not have been thinking of the "1 day = 1000 years" context in this situation, but rather LITERALLY seeing the fulfillment that Jesus spoke of.

It seems to be gleaned from Psalms 90:4 (which 2 Peter 3:8 quotes).

Partaker of Christ
Feb 25th 2008, 11:34 PM
John wrote Revelation to the early Christians who spoke either greek or hebrew...in their alphabet each letter was numbered. They could literally write a sentence using numbers only and it be readable to others that knew their language. The Hebrews also omitted vowels too. I believe Revelation was written before 90 AD ...before 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem 'trodden under by the gentiles"...would be unbelievable that John would not mention these events if they had already happened. It would be like someone writing our current history now and leaving out what happened on 911.
God bless


Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

John the Apostle ordained Antipas as bishop of the Pergamum during the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian
Antipas was martyred in ca. 92 AD by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar used for casting out demons worshiped by the local population.

Book of Revelation as “Antipas My faithful martyr, who was slain among you where Satan dwelleth” (Revelations 2:13) - the city of Pergamum. The inhabitants of Pergamum dwelt in the darkness of idolatry and in the depths of impurity. They were slaves to their passions, slanderers, bullies, incestuous. He who would seize and kill a Christian was regarded as good and just. The whole of their idolatrous faith consisted of soothsaying, the interpretation of dreams, the services of demons and the extreme excesses of debauchery. Among these slaves of Satan, dwelt Antipas “as a light in the midst of darkness, as a rose among thorns, as gold in mud.” In terror of Antipas, as of fire, the demons appeared to the pagan priests in their dreams and told them that their great fear of Antipas was driving them from the city. The priests stirred up the multitude and they began to torment Antipas, pressing him to deny Christ and worship idols. Antipas said to them, “Then your so-called gods and lords of the universe are afraid of me, a mortal man, and have to flee the city, why do you not learn from this that your faith is in vain?” The saint spoke further with them of the Christian faith as the only true and saving faith, but the people became incensed like wild beasts and dragged the aged Antipas before the temple of Artemis, where an ox cast in bronze stood. They heated the ox and threw the servant of God inside. Antipas, inside the red-hot ox, glorified God with thanksgiving, like Jonah in the shale and the Three Children in the fiery furnace. Antipas prayed for his flock and for the whole world, until his soul parted from his exhausted body and went to join the angels in the Kingdom of Christ. He was crowned with unfading glory in the year 92.

Jerome1
Feb 26th 2008, 05:00 PM
I thought the number 666 was associated with the pagan Roman emperor Nero Caesar, and that the future antichrist could very well be the leader, of a revived Roman Empire.

Clifton
Feb 26th 2008, 06:19 PM
I thought the number 666 was associated with the pagan Roman emperor Nero Caesar, and that the future antichrist could very well be the leader, of a revived Roman Empire.

Could well be. The Exegetical and Commentary I study gives a summary for one of its sections as follows:

*SATAN APPARENTLY TRIUMPHANT: THE CHURCH ON EARTH DESTROYED.*

*12:18 through Chapter 13, 14:12-13.* (The climax of Satan's power on earth achieved in the personal reign of the Antichrist -- the Roman Empire incarnated in the demonic Nero -- for three and a half years: the universal martyrdom of the faithful, and the beatitude pronounced upon them from Heaven. For a summary of this section (to which 14.12-13 belongs -- see Vol. I, 368) see Vol. I, 332 sq. The third Woe, which began in 11:15-19, is resumed here, though in Chapter 12 the way is prepared for this Woe by the casting down of Satan from heaven.) - A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John; R. H. Charles, T. & T. Clark, 1920 (2 Volumes).

I should note to not look for Revelation 12:18 in your Standard Bible(s). You will find that part in 13:1a, perhaps with a different pronoun ("I" as opposed to "he"). Here's how it reads:

(12:18) And he stood upon the sand of the sea.

(13:1) And from the sea I saw a beast coming up with ten horns and seven heads[95], and on his heads names of blasphemy.

Footnote #95: [13:1] MSS add a gloss: "And on his horns ten diadems." The position of the numeral is against our author's usage. Further, the gloss conflicts with xii. 3c. Again, though the use of "diadems" is befitting in relation to the Emperors of Rome (cf. xix. 12 where Christ has "many diadems"), it is quite inapt in regard to the ten vassal kings of Parthia (xvii. 12).

In DSS Revelation, I believe I have a parallel to the Bible's Revelation versions:

And I stood upon the sand of
the sea, and saw a beast rise up out
of the sea, and from his nostrils
wafted foul and loathsome air, and
where he rose from the sea, the
clear waters turned to slime, and his
body was covered with black and
steaming stone.

The "Stood upon the sea" phrase occurs more than once. Cp. Revelation 10:5 and is very similar with DSS Revelation. The Byzantine-Majority Greek New Testament of the Bible version of Revelation adds "right" preceding "hand", i.e. "...lifted up his right hand to heaven..."*

David Taylor
Feb 26th 2008, 06:20 PM
Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

John the Apostle ordained Antipas as bishop of the Pergamum during the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian
Antipas was martyred in ca. 92 AD by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar used for casting out demons worshiped by the local population.


I know that the Bible only mentions a person named 'Antipas' in Revelation chapter 2; but doesn't specifically provide any dating in that passage.

What 1st or 2nd century external Biblical historical author records the venue of Antipas of Revelation 2 to be circa 92 A.D.?

moonglow
Feb 26th 2008, 06:36 PM
I know that the Bible only mentions a person named 'Antipas' in Revelation chapter 2; but doesn't specifically provide any dating in that passage.

What 1st or 2nd century external Biblical historical author records the venue of Antipas of Revelation 2 to be circa 92 A.D.?

It appears he got his information from here this source (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:te1DG3ZfcEQJ:sacredartgallery.com/catalog/icons44_45.htm+he+inhabitants+of+Pergamum+dwelt+in +the+darkness+of+idolatry+and+in+the+depths+of+imp urity.&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

I also found this date listed on wikipediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum

You would have to check out their sources. I went through my bible history website and this is all I found under this name:
Antipas, the tetrarch of Galilee and Perea, was called 'that fox' by Jesus because of his craftiness. He was denounced by John the Baptist for his adulterous relationship with Herodias, the former wife of his half-brother. After a seductive dance by her daughter, probably Salome, Antipas rashly promised her whatever she asked. He reluctantly fulfilled her request by presenting John's head on a dish to Herodias. It was her nagging insistence which proved to be Antipas' undoing. When he asked to be upgraded from tetrarch to king in AD 39, he was instead banished with his wife to France.http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusBrief_Historical_Background.htm

And that couldn't be the same one!

God bless

markdrums
Feb 26th 2008, 06:52 PM
I know that the Bible only mentions a person named 'Antipas' in Revelation chapter 2; but doesn't specifically provide any dating in that passage.

What 1st or 2nd century external Biblical historical author records the venue of Antipas of Revelation 2 to be circa 92 A.D.?

I know what you're saying here... I'm kinda' in the same boat on this issue.

I still believe there's more evidence in the scriptures, AND in general history, that points to Nero, the Roman Empire, & the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, as the main subject in Revelation.

The ONLY puzzling, unclear item is the Mention of Antipas, within the Church of Pergamos.

I've been trying to study this further, & so far everything related to this goes back to a "Traditional teaching" that Antipas was martyred in 92 AD.
However, I've JUST started researching the historical basis of this, & haven't determined if it's a SOLID statement, or just a passed down, assumed event.

It makes sense, given the context of the passage in Revelation, but there really isn't a definite time period given.

Some of the reasons I have a hard time thinking ALL of Revelation is "far future" prophecy from the time of writing are;

John surely would have mentioned the destruction of the temple if it had happened. THAT would have been a MAJOR event in the life & times of the Jewish people. (He made mention of other things that had happened... so why not this?)

John also says these things must SOON take place, & the time is at hand, and he is their brother & fellow companion in tribulation. Even (and especially) a Hyper-Literal interpretation would have to admit that words like "SOON & NEAR & AT HAND" would mean just that.''

John was told NOT to seal up his prophecy, because the time was (again) "AT HAND". Yet Daniel, was told TO SEAL his prophecy, because the time was far off. Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled 600 years or so later.
So, How can 600 years be considered "far off" and 2000 plus years be considered SOON, concerning Revelation?

Jesus spoke of the temple & surrounding building being destroyed during the Olivet Discourse, & that his disciples would see it happen. (They Did)
He also speaks of "Caesar" & his money, and makes a point to ask "Who's NAME is on the money? and Who's IMAGE is on it?"
These were also key points brought up by John concerning the Beast/Antichrist in Revelation, with respect to the "mark" & "buying & selling". (Antichrist is a term for "in place of / instead of Christ" as well as the more popular definition "against".)
The high priests exclaimed "We have no King but Caesar" before the crucifixion.... choosing Caesar over Jesus (or "instead of Jesus").....

These are just a few reasons I hold the view I do.

However again, I admit the whole mention of Antipas currently puzzles me.
But it's only ONE thing, rather than a myriad of things that oppose a full-futuristic view.

Clifton
Feb 26th 2008, 07:14 PM
I know that the Bible only mentions a person named 'Antipas' in Revelation chapter 2; but doesn't specifically provide any dating in that passage.

What 1st or 2nd century external Biblical historical author records the venue of Antipas of Revelation 2 to be circa 92 A.D.?


S/He provided a couple of resources in Post 1543225.

On the second source s/he provided, you will note that the fate of Antipas was recorded by Simeon Metaphrastes. On MOST (but not all) of our protestant side, Antipas is virtually an unknown name and when reading Revelation 2:13, we just kind of fly over it - and we do not honor him on April 11 as others do in re of tradition, because we do not "pray to saints". However, some protestants feel it is time to at least recognize him... because Antipas was the "proto-martyr" for Revelation - but not "pray to him.";)

Clifton
Feb 26th 2008, 07:20 PM
It appears he got his information from here this source (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:te1DG3ZfcEQJ:sacredartgallery.com/catalog/icons44_45.htm+he+inhabitants+of+Pergamum+dwelt+in +the+darkness+of+idolatry+and+in+the+depths+of+imp urity.&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

I also found this date listed on wikipediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum

You would have to check out their sources. I went through my bible history website and this is all I found under this name:
Antipas, the tetrarch of Galilee and Perea, was called 'that fox' by Jesus because of his craftiness. He was denounced by John the Baptist for his adulterous relationship with Herodias, the former wife of his half-brother. After a seductive dance by her daughter, probably Salome, Antipas rashly promised her whatever she asked. He reluctantly fulfilled her request by presenting John's head on a dish to Herodias. It was her nagging insistence which proved to be Antipas' undoing. When he asked to be upgraded from tetrarch to king in AD 39, he was instead banished with his wife to France.http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusBrief_Historical_Background.htm

And that couldn't be the same one!

God bless

Yea... they are not the same alright. I guess the way I would (or did) research it would be via Google, entering the words:

Bishop Antipas Pergamos

in the Google Search Box. Note that Pergamos is spelled different ways due to different languages.

moonglow
Feb 26th 2008, 07:25 PM
S/He provided a couple of resources in Post 1543225.

On the second source s/he provided, you will note that the fate of Antipas was recorded by Simeon Metaphrastes. On MOST (but not all) of our protestant side, Antipas is virtually an unknown name and when reading Revelation 2:13, we just kind of fly over it - and we do not honor him on April 11 as others do in re of tradition, because we do not "pray to saints". However, some protestants feel it is time to at least recognize him... because Antipas was the "proto-martyr" for Revelation - but not "pray to him.";)

Thanks for that link but boy did it make me gets lost on the form! lol. I didn't realize that lead to a totally different thread and read that post then was going back and forth trying to figure out where I was at...:lol: Then finally scrolled up and realized I was on the wrong thread all together! lol. That was kind of freaky for a few minutes there....

I checked the links given on that posts and the thing is either would be considered reliable. We know Wikepeka is no longer reliable due to allowing anyone on there to edit their sites (though they have stopped allowing that now) there is no telling how many of their pages have been corrupted with false information. And the Latter Rain sites...many on here have some major problems with their reliability. So we need something from sites more reliable.

Now I did find this on a bible history site that says this was Herod's son!

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/A/ANTIPAS/

an'-ti-pas (Antipas): The name is an abbreviation of Antipater: (1) A name of Herod "the tetrarch" (in Jos), son of Herod the Great, the brother of Archelaus (Mt 14:1; Lk 3:1; 9:7; Acts 13:1). See HEROD. (2) A martyr of the church of Pergamum, described as "my witness, my faithful one" (Rev 2:13).

But in looking up these passages I didn't find them helpful but only adding to the confusion:

Matthew 14
John the Baptist Beheaded
1 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the report about Jesus

Luke 3
John the Baptist Prepares the Way
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene,

Luke 9:7

Herod Seeks to See Jesus
7 Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by Him; and he was perplexed, because it was said by some that John had risen from the dead,

Acts 13

1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

So I don't get it..it says Manaen, not Antipas...:hmm:

God bless

moonglow
Feb 26th 2008, 07:37 PM
Ok I checked a bible commentary to see if it could shed any light onto who this Manaen person was...Adam Clark usually checks historical information for these things and he says this:
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ac&chapter=013
Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod
Our margin has given the proper meaning of the original word συντροφος, a foster-brother; i.e. Manaen was the son of the woman who nursed Herod Antipas; and the son, also, whose milk the young Herod shared. Of a person whose name was Manaen or Menahem, and who was in the court of Herod, we read several things in the Jewish writers. They say that this man had the gift of prophecy, and that he told Herod, when he was but a child, that he would be king. When Herod became king he sent for him to his court, and held him in great estimation. It might have been the son of this Menahem of whom St. Luke here speaks. Dr. Lightfoot has shown this to be at least possible.
******************
So apparently this isn't Antipas that John is referring too...at least not that I found yet.

Edited to add: I checked on Adam Clark again to figure out who this Antipas is...this is what he has:

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=002
Antipas was my faithful martyr
Who this Antipas was we cannot tell. We only know that he was a Christian, and probably bore some office in the Church, and became illustrious by his martyrdom in the cause of Christ. There is a work extant called The Acts of Antipas, which makes him bishop of Pergamos, and states that he was put to death by being enclosed in a burning brazen bull. But this story confutes itself, as the Romans, under whose government Pergamos then was, never put any person to death in this way. It is supposed that he was murdered by some mob, who chose this way to vindicate the honour of their god AEsculapius, in opposition to the claims of our Lord Jesus.

David Taylor
Feb 26th 2008, 09:02 PM
I just spent some time doing word-searches on several ancient church writings libraries.

"Antipas" is found a small handful of times, referenced amongst the Pre-Nicene, Nicene, and Post-Nicene church fathers; in regards to "Herod Antipas".

The only church writing I could find of historical record mentioning "Antipas" of Pergamum ei: Revelation chapter 2, was Tertullian (160-235 A.D.).

Tertullian however, doesn't provide any dating clues, but pretty much just parrots John's earlier account in Revelation.

So the only dating I can find of Revelation's Antipas, from historical writings, is Tertullian writes about Antipas sometime circa 200ish A.D.....

Clifton
Feb 26th 2008, 09:09 PM
Thanks for that link but boy did it make me gets lost on the form! lol. I didn't realize that lead to a totally different thread and read that post then was going back and forth trying to figure out where I was at...:lol: Then finally scrolled up and realized I was on the wrong thread all together! lol. That was kind of freaky for a few minutes there....

I checked the links given on that posts and the thing is either would be considered reliable. We know Wikepeka is no longer reliable due to allowing anyone on there to edit their sites (though they have stopped allowing that now) there is no telling how many of their pages have been corrupted with false information. And the Latter Rain sites...many on here have some major problems with their reliability. So we need something from sites more reliable.

Now I did find this on a bible history site that says this was Herod's son!

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/A/ANTIPAS/

an'-ti-pas (Antipas): The name is an abbreviation of Antipater: (1) A name of Herod "the tetrarch" (in Jos), son of Herod the Great, the brother of Archelaus (Mt 14:1; Lk 3:1; 9:7; Acts 13:1). See HEROD. (2) A martyr of the church of Pergamum, described as "my witness, my faithful one" (Rev 2:13).

But in looking up these passages I didn't find them helpful but only adding to the confusion:

Matthew 14
John the Baptist Beheaded
1 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the report about Jesus

Luke 3
John the Baptist Prepares the Way
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene,

Luke 9:7

Herod Seeks to See Jesus
7 Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by Him; and he was perplexed, because it was said by some that John had risen from the dead,

Acts 13

1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

So I don't get it..it says Manaen, not Antipas...:hmm:

God bless

Yea... that's the bad thing about the "POST" tags - it opens up a new window (or Tab). I do not think the "THREAD" tags do that though.

You will only find "Antipas" in Revelation 2:13. The Strong's Number is 493. I'm gonna bring this up in the "Revelation: The Greek" thread. I'll post what my Greek Dictionary says. It is not long. There's a couple of sentences I do not understand, and IMO, should provide better clarity;

For now, I will note that it states, "Later, Greek tradition made him bishop of Pergamum, martyred under Domitian by being thrown into a heated brazen bull which stood at the temple of Diana and so being roasted alive."

I got a kick out of John Gill's Expositor (18th Century) for that verse - here's a small snippet extraction of that:

...for Antipas is the contraction of Antipater, and is the same with Antipapas, or Antipappas, which signifies one that is against the pope, an opposer of that holy father; and so intends all those that made head against him, upon his rising and revelation, and when he assumed the power he did to himself; such as the Waldenses and Albigenses particularly, who set themselves against him, openly declared that the pope was antichrist, and that his government was tyrannical, and his doctrines the doctrines of devils, abominable and fabulous. They bore a faithful testimony against all his corruptions and innovations, and became martyrs in the cause of Christ, many thousands of them being slain for his sake within the dominions of this firstborn of Satan. The Alexandrian copy reads "Anteipas"; and his name is left out in the Syriac and Arabic versions.

Jerome1
Feb 27th 2008, 12:03 AM
Edit, my mistake.

moonglow
Feb 27th 2008, 03:48 AM
Yea... that's the bad thing about the "POST" tags - it opens up a new window (or Tab). I do not think the "THREAD" tags do that though.

You will only find "Antipas" in Revelation 2:13. The Strong's Number is 493. I'm gonna bring this up in the "Revelation: The Greek" thread. I'll post what my Greek Dictionary says. It is not long. There's a couple of sentences I do not understand, and IMO, should provide better clarity;

For now, I will note that it states, "Later, Greek tradition made him bishop of Pergamum, martyred under Domitian by being thrown into a heated brazen bull which stood at the temple of Diana and so being roasted alive."

I got a kick out of John Gill's Expositor (18th Century) for that verse - here's a small snippet extraction of that:

...for Antipas is the contraction of Antipater, and is the same with Antipapas, or Antipappas, which signifies one that is against the pope, an opposer of that holy father; and so intends all those that made head against him, upon his rising and revelation, and when he assumed the power he did to himself; such as the Waldenses and Albigenses particularly, who set themselves against him, openly declared that the pope was antichrist, and that his government was tyrannical, and his doctrines the doctrines of devils, abominable and fabulous. They bore a faithful testimony against all his corruptions and innovations, and became martyrs in the cause of Christ, many thousands of them being slain for his sake within the dominions of this firstborn of Satan. The Alexandrian copy reads "Anteipas"; and his name is left out in the Syriac and Arabic versions.


I got a kick out of John Gill's Expositor (18th Century) for that verse

What do you mean you got kicked out of this? you lost me there.

As for the rest you said its a 'Greek Tradition'...etc. etc...tradition isn't always based on facts though. You are saying (or rather they are saying) that this isn't a name but is a meaning...of those that died under the pope at this time?

Also another thing ...I don't think the Catholic church was established at that time in history anyway. :hmm: Maybe I am too tired and not understanding all you are saying here...

God bless

Clifton
Feb 27th 2008, 05:49 PM
What do you mean you got kicked out of this? you lost me there.

The statement "...for Antipas is the contraction of Antipater, and is the same with Antipapas, or Antipappas, which signifies one that is against the pope," - Besides chasing down Armianism(sp?), Gill's work chases down anything "popery" as well. His works are very good - they are over 40 years of work - he's references over versions, folios, targums, talmud, and so on.

In Greek, "anti" means "against", and "pas" usually means "all". The two words, "anti" and "all" were used in the same manners as used today in English.


As for the rest you said its a 'Greek Tradition'...etc. etc...tradition isn't always based on facts though. You are saying (or rather they are saying) that this isn't a name but is a meaning...of those that died under the pope at this time?That was a small snippet from my Greek Dictionary - I'll post the rest in the "Revelation: The Greek" thread. I have seen the name Simeon Metaphrastes come up at least a couple of times, as referencing Antipas. I have yet to research the name Simeon Metaphrastes. So far from what I gather, Antipas was made Bishop about 83 A.D. and martyred 92 A.D.; that would stand to reason why the compositions of the other N.T. Books has no mention of this "proto-martyr".


Also another thing ...I don't think the Catholic church was established at that time in history anyway. :hmm: Maybe I am too tired and not understanding all you are saying here...

God blessYea, I think the "Catholic church" (aka RCC) was established around Jerome's time, but some see anything of Rome as Popery and vice-versa, irregardless of the age.

BTW, according to Robertson's Word Pictures:
After the martyrism of Antipas, other martyrs followed him at Pergamum (Agathonice, Attalus, Carpus, Polybus).

Jerome1
Feb 29th 2008, 06:59 PM
Just done a word search, Herod Atipas, also known as Antipatros.

Antipatris was also a city built by Herod the great, and means against the Father, and not against the pope.

the sinner
Mar 2nd 2008, 12:38 AM
It boggles the mind to see so many references to a pope come up in a study of scriptural concepts. Where is the Pope found in the scriptures?

Where is there a Pope found in history prior to 606 a.d.? Of course, you will find plenty of them after that time, but all are from claims dating back to instead ov forward from.

MessiahsFollower
Mar 2nd 2008, 01:06 AM
If the High Priest of the Jews is the beast whose number is the number of a man,

Verse and scripture please I do not believe this.......

brakelite
Mar 3rd 2008, 09:13 AM
:OFFT:
Thought I'd add a little food for thought to the OP

HE LATINE BASILEIA (Greek translit'n for The Latin Kingdom)
08 30 1 300 10 50 8 2 1 200 10 30 5 10 1 = 666

ITALIKA EKKLESIA (Greek translit'n for Italian Church)
10 300 1 30 10 20 1 5 20 20 30 8 200 10 1 = 666

LATEINOS (Greek for Latin speaking or Latin man)
30 1 300 5 10 50 70 200 = 666

VICARIUS FILII DEI (Latin for Vicar of the Son of God)
5 1 100 0 0 1 5 0 0 1 50 1 1 500 0 1 = 666

DUX CLERI (Latin for 'Captain of the Clergy')
500 5 10 100 50 0 0 1 = 666

LUDOVICUS (Latin for 'Chief Vicar of the Court of Rome)
50 5 500 0 5 1 100 5 0 = 666


PS The final post isn't quite what I typed, there were supposed to be gaps etc to make it clear. But you'll work it out.
Some of the E's in the Greek are supposed to have a dash over them; my keyboard can't do that. (just in case you get confused by the different values with some E's)

Jerome1
Mar 6th 2008, 08:33 PM
HE LATINE BASILEIA (Greek translit'n for The Latin Kingdom)
08 30 1 300 10 50 8 2 1 200 10 30 5 10 1 = 666

ITALIKA EKKLESIA (Greek translit'n for Italian Church)
10 300 1 30 10 20 1 5 20 20 30 8 200 10 1 = 666

LATEINOS (Greek for Latin speaking or Latin man)
30 1 300 5 10 50 70 200 = 666

VICARIUS FILII DEI (Latin for Vicar of the Son of God)
5 1 100 0 0 1 5 0 0 1 50 1 1 500 0 1 = 666

DUX CLERI (Latin for 'Captain of the Clergy')
500 5 10 100 50 0 0 1 = 666

LUDOVICUS (Latin for 'Chief Vicar of the Court of Rome)
50 5 500 0 5 1 100 5 0 = 666

Could you give me the source for these, i'm sure i could come up with a few inventive ones myself to describe any denomination.

Tell me if someone predicts the end of the world in 1843-1844 and it doesn't come to pass, are they a false prophet?(Deuteronomy18:22)

brakelite
Mar 8th 2008, 02:40 AM
Could you give me the source for these, i'm sure i could come up with a few inventive ones myself to describe any denomination.

The aforementioned titles and values are common knowledge, and not just within my denomination. They have been around for years. And yes, I am sure you may come up, given time, with some of your own. But you might have a hard time convincing someone to wear it on a crown as the pope does with 'vicar of the Son of God'. Although, I believe that that title has recently been removed because of the obvious embarrassment:blush:. Not sure whether that true or not, can't give you a source for that.


Tell me if someone predicts the end of the world in 1843-1844 and it doesn't come to pass, are they a false prophet?(Deuteronomy18:22)
Interesting take on that era in your history. Whether William Millar could be renounced as a false prophet I will leave that for God, and/or his contempories. It is interesting that those who believed in the announcement of the imminent coming of Christ were Methodists, Episcopalians, Church of Christ, Presbyterians, and a combination of many others. Many backslid wholly from their faith as a result of the disappointment:sad:, while none that despite the disappointment who kept their faith could deny that God was in the great spiritual awakening and reformation that took place at that time.
Interesting also is the fact that although William Millar was mistaken regarding the event, no-one then, nor since, has been able to argue with the time:hmm:. An understanding of the true event explains the original error.
Oh, and incidentally, no-one in the SDA church that was formed later, has set any date on the second coming, including Ellen White, despite rumours to the contrary.

Jerome1
Apr 3rd 2008, 04:45 PM
I know this is hard to belive


Almost as hard as the enemy chart on the site you linked.:rofl:

Chachynga
Apr 6th 2008, 03:03 AM
Many many many expert bible students support the Idea that this is POPE of rome. There is copious evidence supporting that claim. You may consider looking into it. He certainly fits the bill, as a figure throughout the churches dirty and unchristian history. :kiss:



:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Roelof
Apr 6th 2008, 03:13 PM
Some info from my Study Bible:

Revelation 13 (KJV Bible Commentary)

13:11. Like Satan, this beast, the third member of the evil trio of the Tribulation Period, traffics in counterfeiting. He has horns like a lamb; Satan’s agents are able to pass themselves off as messengers of light (cf. II Cor 11:13–15). F. W. Grant (cf. The Numerical Bible, in loco) has suggested that this beast seeks to imitate the kingly and prophetic ministries of Christ. Spake as a dragon. But his speech betrays him as a tool of Satan; he pretends meekness and humility as a lamb, but in actuality is a masterpiece of the devil. Jerusalem

He is stationed in Jerusalem (cf. II Thess 2:4); but he owes his position and power to the first beast, who resides in Rome (cf. Dan 11:38–39, especially the words “god of forces” and “strange god”). With the military help of his superior, he can command universal compliance with his demands.

An enclave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclave) of Rome is the State of the Vatican City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City), the sovereign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign) territory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory) of the Holy See (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See) (to refer to the central government of the Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church)),. It is the smallest nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation) in the world, and the capital of the only religion to have representation in the United Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) (as a non-member observer state).

Jerome1
Apr 11th 2008, 10:49 PM
Many many many expert bible students support the Idea that this is POPE of rome. There is copious evidence supporting that claim. You may consider looking into it. He certainly fits the bill, as a figure throughout the churches dirty and unchristian history. :kiss:



:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Could you give me some examples of the copious evidence that supports this claim?

White Spider
Apr 12th 2008, 12:02 AM
Could you give me some examples of the copious evidence that supports this claim?

Pope ********* survived an assassination attempt . . .

“And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.” - Revelation 13:3

Pope ********** is the 6th Pope/King. Pius XI was the first Roman Catholic pope (from February 6, 1922) who became king as well on February 11, 1929.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." - Revelation 17:10

The emphasis there being on that 6th king.

This is just a few reasons people believe it could be the Pope.

(I think that's what you were asking for, kinda jumped in the middle of the conversation) ;)

danield
Apr 12th 2008, 02:09 AM
Pope ********** is the 6th Pope/King. Pius XI was the first Roman Catholic pope (from February 6, 1922) who became king as well on February 11, 1929.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." - Revelation 17:10

The emphasis there being on that 6th king.

;)

I don't buy into the Pope thing, but on a side note, I do not think it is the 6th king who's time is short but the 7th because it is his reign that will be shortened for the 8th king to take control. And we all know that the 8th king is the beast.