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wpm
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:51 AM
Thought I would present some thoughts for measured discussion.

Many Christians today are mistaken in their understanding of the changeover from the old covenant to the new covenant. They imagine that the Church was an idea/structure invented through the earthly life of Jesus, and that physical ethnic Israeli nationionality prior to that denoted salvation. This is a popular misconception held today. Frankly, the believing people of God are one unitary tree down through time. The cross simply cemented that and marked the time when salvation would be widened out on a large-scale to a broader group – one that was hitherto unbelieving – the Gentiles.

Being a physical Hebrew, Israeli or Jew prior to the cross did not constitute salvation – saving faith did. No keeping of the law or the ordinances outlined in the Old Testament qualified a Jew to be viewed as saved. Men were justified the same way in the Old Testament as they were in the New Testament: Faith in God through man’s only Redeemer Jesus Christ – Jesus the Messiah.

The fact that the people of God were overwhelmingly Jewish and that God’s old covenant was made with the Hebrew people showed that they were indeed a choice nation. But ethnic race was not the grounds for being justified, rather the blood of Jesus the Messiah (who was prophesied by all of the prophets). Romans 9:6-8 confirms this, saying, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Jesus was indeed the “hope of Israel” – the only hope. Those among this priviledged nation that were given the Gospel and ordinances of God who took ahold of the covenant promises – by faith – entered into a relationship with God and experienced personal salvation.

The people of God in both dispensations were known by the same names – God’s chosen people, children of Abraham, the assembly or congregation (ecclesia – imperfectly interpreted ‘Church’), and the circumsion. The Roman Catholic Church made the Church into a human institution instead of a spiritual organism. The Dispensationalists similarly made the Church into an institution - mistakenly arguing that it saw its birth at Pentecost. This has become a common misconception - as can be seen by the Left Behind novels.

Even the label Christian was only introduced in Acts 11:26. Before that Christ’s followers were simply known as disciples. Acts says, “he (Barnabus) brought him (Saul) unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” However, this term is only found 3 times in the Bible. The description ‘disciple’ is found 269 times in the New Testament. I am not suggesting that we should not use the term Christian (far from it), but that we shouldn't strictly restrict it to a time following Antioch. I believe the religious concept that prior to Christ the true religion was Judaism and after Christ it was Christianity is not fully accurate. In some way the faith has always been Christian (Christ – Christos – being the Greek word for Messiah). The saints of old have always been Messianic (or followers of Christ). That has been the sign of a true believer under the old covenant. Equally, true Judaism is what a follower of Christ (Messiah) enters into upon salvation in our day.

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states,“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.”

Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church,“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

Colossians 2:11-14 declares, “ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

Salvation has never been by race, but by grace.

Christ is the fulfilment of every law, commandment and ordinance in the Old Testament. He is “the way, the truth and the life.” He has been man’s only hope of salvation.

There is therefore a unity among believers regardless of their birthday and nationality. They have been made one through Christ. The believer of whatever race has become a true Jew having his heart circumcised (the only circumcision that matters today). The elect of all time belong to the Olive tree – and include Jew and Gentile in the old and new administration. These are the true covenant children of Abraham. Those that are not saved (irrespective of whether they are Jew or Gentile) do not carry any right to boast of being God’s elect or His chosen people. Sadly, they are rather of their father the devil and bound for a Christless lost eternity.

Regards.

Paul

the rookie
Feb 23rd 2008, 06:59 AM
I'll just chime in with what I always tend to say when the subject of Israel comes up:

If you are talking about dispensational theology and the confusion of some within that stream of thought (not all) related to a "dual covenant" theology, than you have clarified the scriptural realities of salvation by faith through grace regardless of the time frame of redemptive history quite well.

In fact, whenever these kinds of posts come up, I always find myself saying, "um, yep, I agree - salvation by faith alone with no respect given to race; John the Baptist made that quite clear related to the nature of the kingdom and the proper Jewish response in Matt. 3 & Lk. 3."

If you are talking about premillennial theology and the assertion that there is a future role or function for Israel related to the destiny of the nations of the earth (or, "blessing") after the Second Coming; then I would say that you misunderstand what is being misunderstood.

In other words, when it comes to salvation, particularly related to the individual before God, race is never an issue - only the heart. When it comes to "function" related to the plan of God for the redemption of the earth itself (Rom. 8), then one must remember that blindness "in part" has come "until"....as the Gentiles have a role to play that impacts the nation of Israel, which in turn impacts the whole earth.

We can debate whether the nation of Israel itself has a role to play in the future, after the Second Coming. But I find that to reduce the argument to "Jews can get saved today, and don't have to wait until later, and race doesn't matter" is to really mix apples n' oranges and pretend we're talking about the same thing.

jeffweeder
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:20 AM
Amen Paul, thanks for posting that truth.
God bless ya

quiet dove
Feb 23rd 2008, 05:06 PM
In other words, when it comes to salvation, particularly related to the individual before God, race is never an issue - only the heart. When it comes to "function" related to the plan of God for the redemption of the earth itself (Rom. 8), then one must remember that blindness "in part" has come "until"....as the Gentiles have a role to play that impacts the nation of Israel, which in turn impacts the whole earth.

We can debate whether the nation of Israel itself has a role to play in the future, after the Second Coming. But I find that to reduce the argument to "Jews can get saved today, and don't have to wait until later, and race doesn't matter" is to really mix apples n' oranges and pretend we're talking about the same thing.

You put that well.


We are all saved the same way,however, that does not equate to us all having the same purpose or the same calling. And the entity of the nation of Israel, saved by the Blood of Christ, can still have a different calling and purpose than that of the entity of the Church. One Savior, One way to be saved, two callings/purposes.

wpm
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:35 PM
You put that well.


We are all saved the same way,however, that does not equate to us all having the same purpose or the same calling. And the entity of the nation of Israel, saved by the Blood of Christ, can still have a different calling and purpose than that of the entity of the Church. One Savior, One way to be saved, two callings/purposes.

Are you suggesting that God has 2 peoples? Do you not believe that God's chosen are part of the one organism (irrespective of time) through faith - the good olive tree?

Paul

markdrums
Feb 23rd 2008, 07:56 PM
Thought I would present some thoughts for measured discussion.

Many Christians today are mistaken in their understanding of the changeover from the old covenant to the new covenant. They imagine that the Church was an idea/structure invented through the earthly life of Jesus, and that physical ethnic Israeli nationionality prior to that denoted salvation. This is a popular misconception held today. Frankly, the believing people of God are one unitary tree down through time. The cross simply cemented that and marked the time when salvation would be widened out on a large-scale to a broader group – one that was hitherto unbelieving – the Gentiles.

Being a physical Hebrew, Israeli or Jew prior to the cross did not constitute salvation – saving faith did. No keeping of the law or the ordinances outlined in the Old Testament qualified a Jew to be viewed as saved. Men were justified the same way in the Old Testament as they were in the New Testament: Faith in God through man’s only Redeemer Jesus Christ – Jesus the Messiah.

The fact that the people of God were overwhelmingly Jewish and that God’s old covenant was made with the Hebrew people showed that they were indeed a choice nation. But ethnic race was not the grounds for being justified, rather the blood of Jesus the Messiah (who was prophesied by all of the prophets). Romans 9:6-8 confirms this, saying, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Jesus was indeed the “hope of Israel” – the only hope. Those among this priviledged nation that were given the Gospel and ordinances of God who took ahold of the covenant promises – by faith – entered into a relationship with God and experienced personal salvation.

The people of God in both dispensations were known by the same names – God’s chosen people, children of Abraham, the assembly or congregation (ecclesia – imperfectly interpreted ‘Church’), and the circumsion. The Roman Catholic Church made the Church into a human institution instead of a spiritual organism. The Dispensationalists similarly made the Church into an institution - mistakenly arguing that it saw its birth at Pentecost. This has become a common misconception - as can be seen by the Left Behind novels.

Even the label Christian was only introduced in Acts 11:26. Before that Christ’s followers were simply known as disciples. Acts says, “he (Barnabus) brought him (Saul) unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” However, this term is only found 3 times in the Bible. The description ‘disciple’ is found 269 times in the New Testament. I am not suggesting that we should not use the term Christian (far from it), but that we shouldn't strictly restrict it to a time following Antioch. I believe the religious concept that prior to Christ the true religion was Judaism and after Christ it was Christianity is not fully accurate. In some way the faith has always been Christian (Christ – Christos – being the Greek word for Messiah). The saints of old have always been Messianic (or followers of Christ). That has been the sign of a true believer under the old covenant. Equally, true Judaism is what a follower of Christ (Messiah) enters into upon salvation in our day.

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states,“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.”

Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church,“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

Colossians 2:11-14 declares, “ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

Salvation has never been by race, but by grace.

Christ is the fulfilment of every law, commandment and ordinance in the Old Testament. He is “the way, the truth and the life.” He has been man’s only hope of salvation.

There is therefore a unity among believers regardless of their birthday and nationality. They have been made one through Christ. The believer of whatever race has become a true Jew having his heart circumcised (the only circumcision that matters today). The elect of all time belong to the Olive tree – and include Jew and Gentile in the old and new administration. These are the true covenant children of Abraham. Those that are not saved (irrespective of whether they are Jew or Gentile) do not carry any right to boast of being God’s elect or His chosen people. Sadly, they are rather of their father the devil and bound for a Christless lost eternity.

Regards.

Paul

Exactly!
It's not about race, but rather RELATIONSHIP. Great Post WPM!!!

God has ONE chosen people;
"BELIEVERS".
Regardless of "where" you live, or what "ethnic heritage" you descend from.

Remember, Ruth, was not from Israel, and was not a Jew. She was from Moab. The enemies of the Jews.
Yet, when you look at the bloodline starting from Abraham, through to the birth of Jesus, RUTH is IN that physical bloodline.

I have to agree, that there's no separate "plan" for Israel as a nation.
The Bible speaks about the "Marriage supper" for the "Bride of Christ".

There's no mention of BRIDES,or an additional "WIFE" added at a later time.

We're all "saved" the same way, & we're all dealt with at the same time, ...... in the same way.

wpm
Feb 23rd 2008, 08:32 PM
I'll just chime in with what I always tend to say when the subject of Israel comes up:

If you are talking about dispensational theology and the confusion of some within that stream of thought (not all) related to a "dual covenant" theology, than you have clarified the scriptural realities of salvation by faith through grace regardless of the time frame of redemptive history quite well.

In fact, whenever these kinds of posts come up, I always find myself saying, "um, yep, I agree - salvation by faith alone with no respect given to race; John the Baptist made that quite clear related to the nature of the kingdom and the proper Jewish response in Matt. 3 & Lk. 3."

If you are talking about premillennial theology and the assertion that there is a future role or function for Israel related to the destiny of the nations of the earth (or, "blessing") after the Second Coming; then I would say that you misunderstand what is being misunderstood.

In other words, when it comes to salvation, particularly related to the individual before God, race is never an issue - only the heart. When it comes to "function" related to the plan of God for the redemption of the earth itself (Rom. 8), then one must remember that blindness "in part" has come "until"....as the Gentiles have a role to play that impacts the nation of Israel, which in turn impacts the whole earth.

We can debate whether the nation of Israel itself has a role to play in the future, after the Second Coming. But I find that to reduce the argument to "Jews can get saved today, and don't have to wait until later, and race doesn't matter" is to really mix apples n' oranges and pretend we're talking about the same thing.

Thanks Rookie.

But whatever we believe re the end-times and whatever amount of Jews come through for Christ in the future, they enter into the same lone organism that all the rest of the saints down through time have - the good olive tree. There is no other vehicle. This is the spiritual congregation of God's elect. All partake through the blood of Jesus - and none other means. There is no other arrangement for the people of God.

As we know, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:29, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). The sinner (of all nationalities) enters exclusively into communion with God through regeneration and the new birth experience.

Paul

markdrums
Feb 23rd 2008, 09:28 PM
The "Cultivatd Olive Tree" is a GREAT example, which was brought up.

"Israel" has been often mentioned metaphorically as "the Olive Tree".
So, when we read of there being "ONE Cultivated Olive Tree", what should that tell us?

Jesus describes this as branches being broken off, ("Unbelievers") and "wild branches" being grafted in, (The Gentiles / Non-Jews).
Either way, they are BOTH part of the same tree.
It's not the individual branches that sustain life of their own, but the ROOT of the tree that supports them.

We are ALL, as believers, "True Israel" or "the Olive Tree".

No matter HOW we became part of the tree, when the tree is "pulled up", ALL the branches go at the same time.

:)

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 09:32 PM
Thanks WPM, nicely said.

God has NO respect for any man's person....period.


Those who glory in physical children of Abraham have respect of persons which is a sin. This glory in the flesh of men/race makes the Gospel null and void, just as the pharisees who said "we have Abraham to our father"

This is a HUGE deception upon the church these days. The pharisee leaven.

Grace, not race!!

Amen.

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 09:45 PM
I wished I could agree with most of you but sorry to say I don't. The thing that confuses me here is this end of the Old Covenant and start of the New.There is no end to either one. The Covenants were issued if you will unconditionally by God there was no time limit. Israel is the chosen people. Jesus was Jewish no matter how you spell it. It should be noted here that 80% of the Jewish population currently in Israel does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that the Old Testament prophecy never proved or fulfilled that he was. Israels role in prophecy is clear.

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:05 PM
It should be noted here that 80% of the Jewish population currently in Israel does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah


The OT demonstrates that the majority of Israel were a 'stiff necked', unfaithful, unrepentant people. When the prophets tried to correct them and call them into faith ......they killed the prophets.




....and that the Old Testament prophecy never proved or fulfilled that he was.


The NT fulfilled that He is the Messiah. The OT fully declares that Christ is the Messiah. It speaks of Him throughout. He is the Word made flesh!

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:13 PM
Where do you get this kill the prophets junk? The OT does declare what you say if you read what I wrote it says they do not believe that the OT fulfilled the prophecy. Information here, the Jews do not recognoze the NT they only recognize the OT (Torah) Also I was speaking in present tense when I spoke of the 80% not the Biblical sense. If people would take sola scriptura instead of trying to read things into thats not there. People can rant and rave and jump up and down but the Jewish state of Israel is Gods chosen. Sure they are going to suffer for their insurrection its been written. But before someone goes spouting off they should know the Torah or at least some of it....

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:16 PM
Where do you get this kill the prophets junk?



Ummm.....who were the prophets sent to? Who killed them?

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:17 PM
Wrong place, wrong time their bad luck..........

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:19 PM
Mat 23:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Luk 11:47 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk011.html#47) Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

Rom 11:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom011.html#3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1Th 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Th/1Th002.html#15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:22 PM
only three who actually were killed: John the Baptist, Balaam, and the obscure Urijah. The Baptist was killed not by the Jews but at the behest of Herodias, the wife and former sister-in-law of Herod, who took offense at John's denunciation of her. It is highly unlikely she was a Jew but rather an Edomite.

None by the Jews by the way......

Three mentioned in the OT Moses,Samuel and Elisha(2 Kings 13:20) most that were noted there is no sign they were killed by Jews. If anything they died from natural causes.

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:25 PM
Sure the pharisees and unbelieving Jews don't believe that Christ fulfilled the OT prophecies of the Messiah.

But the NT says He did.

Who should we listen to?

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:28 PM
only three who actually were killed


Perhaps you should read the OT a little more carefully.

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:31 PM
So Christ and Paul were liars?

Mat 23:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Luk 11:47 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk011.html#47) Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

Rom 11:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom011.html#3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1Th 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Th/1Th002.html#15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:31 PM
No need.Your putting the Jews on trial with no evidence they ever did what you proclaim. Reading things into scripture thats not there. The OT is plain on this. The NT and the OT were thousands of years apart written by different prophets at different times. Agian the NT plays no role in Jewish scripture. What part of no role don't you understand? Not only that the scripture you are quoting is from the NT not the OT.

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:38 PM
Mat 23:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

1Ki 19:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ki/1Ki019.html#10) And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

1Ki 19:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ki/1Ki019.html#14) And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

Jer 2:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jer/Jer002.html#30) In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:41 PM
So Christ and Paul were liars?

Mat 23:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Luk 11:47 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk011.html#47) Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

Rom 11:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom011.html#3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1Th 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Th/1Th002.html#15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Not going to continue to debate this because people have tunnel vision with this. Believe what you will.....By the way Christ is never wrong....since you know it all I will leave it with you only to say Shalom and God Bless Israel..............Oh and all this scripture your trying to impress some one with where does it name the prophets they killed and who killed them? No where in your impressive scripture quoting does it specificly state the Jews killed prophets.

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 10:56 PM
Neh 9:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Neh/Neh009.html#26) Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations.


You are right, Christ is never wrong. He accused the elders of being the children who killed the prophets.

Mat 23:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Mat 23:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Mat 23:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luk 11:47 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk011.html#47) Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

Luk 11:50 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk011.html#50) That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luk 13:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk013.html#33) Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.




Paul confirms Christ....


Act 7:52 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act007.html#52) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Rom 11:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom011.html#3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.


1Th 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Th/1Th002.html#15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

moonglow
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:11 PM
Not going to continue to debate this because people have tunnel vision with this. Believe what you will.....By the way Christ is never wrong....since you know it all I will leave it with you only to say Shalom and God Bless Israel..............Oh and all this scripture your trying to impress some one with where does it name the prophets they killed and who killed them? No where in your impressive scripture quoting does it specificly state the Jews killed prophets.

My understanding it is was the Jewish religious leaders that did the killing of the prophets in at least most cases. I am sorry this has put you on the defense...I don't think that was anyone's intentions here. Of course others caused the death of some of Jesus disciples that had nothing to do with the Jews. Nero, a Roman Caesar, had at least three of his disciples murdered.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=023
Verses 33, 34
Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city.

Behold, I send!
These words surely imply Christ's identity with the Father, God himself. It is Christ who would send forth the apostles, prophets, and wise men; it was God who sent the prophets of the Old Covenant, but the two are one. How naturally did those words fall from the lips of our Lord. Such an outflashing of His Godhead was lost on the Pharisees, but the disciples of all ages would note and remember it, nor ever cease to marvel at it.

The treatment which God's messengers sent by Christ were to receive was accurately foretold. The stoning of Stephen, the imprisonment of the apostles, the persecutions of Paul and others from city to city, even the crucifixion of Christ - all such things in time demonstrated the accuracy of our Lord's predictions to the Pharisees. The mention of "crucify" among the things the Pharisees would do to those sent by Christ showed that Jesus himself was among those "sent." Thus, in this strange and exciting paragraph, Christ appeared both as the Sender and as One sent, both as God and as man. This deduction follows upon the fact that Christ alone was crucified by the Pharisees.


Verse 35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.

Commentators profess to find difficulty with this verse. Alford would reject the words "son of Barachiah." F8 McGarvey supposed that it refers to the circumstances of the death of the prophet Zachariah, although admitting that no record of such an occurrence may be found in the Bible. F9 Broadus found here "a well known difficulty." F10 Why should there be a difficulty? It is obvious that Christ here referred to some secret murder perpetrated, not by the ancestors of those men, but "by them. Whom ye slew!" This could not be an indictment of their ancestors but plainly refers to a murder those wicked men had committed themselves. Christ tried with that one last lightning stroke of truth to get through to them, but even that failed. That no such murder was recorded in either the Old Testament or the New Testament, and that there was no general knowledge of it in the days of Christ, and that no traditions were developed with reference to it - these things present no difficulty at all, but point squarely at the Pharisees and show their effectiveness in covering up their evil deeds and hiding them from popular view. (It was precisely this ability they relied upon when they decided to make away with Jesus See Matthew 26:1-4). It is further evidence of their depravity that none of them ever confessed it, even after he who knew their thoughts revealed it publicly! Their guilty secret went to the grave with them, except for this ray of light from the lips of Christ who made it known on the occasion of their being sentenced to hell for their wickedness. This is a revealing glance at the judgment to come, when the secrets of men's hearts shall be revealed. Commentators ought not to marvel that this judgment scene revealed a crime hitherto unknown; the great judgment will reveal innumerable others!
**************************************

The OT and NT are intertwined and cannot be separated. Every scripture even in the Torah...

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me

There are many prophesies in the OT that point directly to Christ. Here is a link that gives them: http://www.matthewmcgee.org/evidence.html
Evidence that Jesus Christ is the Messiah

I am sorry you have been offended and hurt by this subject...as I said before..I don't think anyone meant it to be hurtful towards you or anyone else.

God bless

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:27 PM
There needs to be a better understanding of the Torah and Judaism here. People seem to forget where their Christian roots were born...it sure wasn't under the Tree of Forbidden Fruit. Further more quoting NT scripture does not prove that the Jews killed prophets. They maybe interwined to Christians but to the Jewish faith the OT is the only one that matters. I am pro Israel and I take offense when people just take pot shots at them with no solid proof except for scripture that does not say the Jews killed anyone. Gods word is not wrong never has been never will. I ain't mad at no one just people do not try to understand because their minds are so narrow they cannot see the forest for the trees. Good debate here folks but I better stay out of it because of my strong belief in the Jews. Pinky we are cool no hard feelings......

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:36 PM
My understanding it is was the Jewish religious leaders that did the killing of the prophets in at least most cases. I am sorry this has put you on the defense...I don't think that was anyone's intentions here.


Yes.


I am sorry you have been offended and hurt by this subject...as I said before..I don't think anyone meant it to be hurtful towards you or anyone else.

Unfortunately the truth CAN be hurtful......which is why is can be described as a two-edged sword.

This is the Lord's doing not man's.

MessiahsFollower
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:39 PM
No truth was spoken here just assumptions based on scripture. But thats neither here nor there.

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:40 PM
Pinky we are cool no hard feelings......

No hard feelings whatsoever on my part.

I just calls it as I sees it.;)

I respect when others do the same. Even if I don't agree.

Peace,
pinky

pinky
Feb 23rd 2008, 11:49 PM
No truth was spoken here just assumptions based on scripture. But thats neither here nor there.


With all due respect, the scriptures speak absolute truth. Simple, straight forward.

The problem is whether or not we can hear and accept what is written as it is written. It seems to be human nature to be 'offended' by simple Biblical truths.

MessiahsFollower
Feb 24th 2008, 12:17 AM
Thats the problem most cannot hear or accept it. I am not offended by Bibilcal truth it says what it says. "Sola Scriptura" Scripture for Scripture. Just that folks have a misguided conception about the Jews. I have this defense mechanism that just kicks in when ever there is an attack on the Jewish faith. Its all good. No worries here. My belief is still there. Like you I call them as I see them weather people agree with me or not.

Merton
Feb 24th 2008, 12:34 AM
With all due respect, the scriptures speak absolute truth. Simple, straight forward.

The problem is whether or not we can hear and accept what is written as it is written. It seems to be human nature to be 'offended' by simple Biblical truths.


Yes.


Heb 4:10 For he entering into His rest, he himself also rested from his works, as God had rested from His own. LXX-Psa. 95:11; Gen. 2:2Heb 4:11 Therefore, let us exert ourselves to enter into that rest, that not anyone fall in the same example of disobedience.
Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;
Heb 4:13 and there is no creature unrevealed before Him; but all things are naked and laid open to His eyes, with whom is our account.

Merton

quiet dove
Feb 24th 2008, 12:53 AM
Are you suggesting that God has 2 peoples? Do you not believe that God's chosen are part of the one organism (irrespective of time) through faith - the good olive tree?

Paul

You and I are both part of the same tree but we both have different responsibilities, calling, jobs, (whatever you want to call it) in Christ. All part of the same body, but one is an arm, one is a leg. Or in my case, probably a toe.

quiet dove
Feb 24th 2008, 12:58 AM
With all due respect, the scriptures speak absolute truth. Simple, straight forward.

The problem is whether or not we can hear and accept what is written as it is written. It seems to be human nature to be 'offended' by simple Biblical truths.

No one is suggesting that the scriptures are not speaking absolute truth. Those here accept the Bible and what is written. That does not mean we all agree with the interpretation. Disagreement of interpretation does not equate to denial of what scripture says. We are all simply trying to understand the simple truths within scripture and are not offended by those truths.

With all due respect. NO reason to make these insinuations towards others.

markdrums
Feb 24th 2008, 01:19 AM
I wished I could agree with most of you but sorry to say I don't. The thing that confuses me here is this end of the Old Covenant and start of the New.There is no end to either one. The Covenants were issued if you will unconditionally by God there was no time limit. Israel is the chosen people. Jesus was Jewish no matter how you spell it. It should be noted here that 80% of the Jewish population currently in Israel does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that the Old Testament prophecy never proved or fulfilled that he was. Israels role in prophecy is clear.


Just a quick interjection.
When Jesus came, he wasn't abolishing the laws of the OT, he was FULFILLING them.
The New Covenant wasn't a "replacement" or "change" of the Old Covenant, it was the COMPLETION.
The only thing left remaining is Christ's return.

Jesus still has One Plan.

Abraham was to be the father of MANY nations. Not a single nation.
This includes ALL ethnicities, regardless the location of "Real estate".

God's promise wasn't some small strip of land on the Earth, it WAS the Earth.

Israel, in respect to their "Judgment", has already been punished. It was prophecied about, & happened.

For people to think God is going to take "the church" out, & punish "Israel" 2000 years later, for seven years, is insane!
Talk about Anti-Semitism!!!
SHEEEESH!

How many times must someone read, Galations to understand??

Gal 3:26-29 26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=7&y=8#) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=7&y=8#) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=7&y=8#) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=7&y=8#) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I can sort of see from a historic perspective why Jewish people today might see things a certain way, from their traditions.....

But I'm SHOCKED that Christians would think they're "preferred" by God, over the Jews, & have some advantage in the "End Times" that gives them a "Get out of Tribulation Free Card", while the Jews are slaughtered by the millions!!!??

There is NO scriptural basis to think that.

And the worst part?
Zionist Extremists are doing everything they can, to get Jews to re-gather in Israel, build a NEW temple, in order to somehow "USHER IN" an AntiChrist?

**Red Flags should be going off about now because, that kind of thinking is flat WRONG!!!!,**

How is it "OUR" repsonsibility, or even within our ability to speed up Jesus' return? It's not up to us..... That time has already been determined by our Father in Heaven.

And there's no distinction by race, or real estate that determines anything.

Merton
Feb 24th 2008, 01:22 AM
Thought I would present some thoughts for measured discussion.

Many Christians today are mistaken in their understanding of the changeover from the old covenant to the new covenant. They imagine that the Church was an idea/structure invented through the earthly life of Jesus, and that physical ethnic Israeli nationionality prior to that denoted salvation. This is a popular misconception held today. Frankly, the believing people of God are one unitary tree down through time. The cross simply cemented that and marked the time when salvation would be widened out on a large-scale to a broader group – one that was hitherto unbelieving – the Gentiles.

Being a physical Hebrew, Israeli or Jew prior to the cross did not constitute salvation – saving faith did. No keeping of the law or the ordinances outlined in the Old Testament qualified a Jew to be viewed as saved. Men were justified the same way in the Old Testament as they were in the New Testament: Faith in God through man’s only Redeemer Jesus Christ – Jesus the Messiah.

The fact that the people of God were overwhelmingly Jewish and that God’s old covenant was made with the Hebrew people showed that they were indeed a choice nation. But ethnic race was not the grounds for being justified, rather the blood of Jesus the Messiah (who was prophesied by all of the prophets). Romans 9:6-8 confirms this, saying, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Jesus was indeed the “hope of Israel” – the only hope. Those among this priviledged nation that were given the Gospel and ordinances of God who took ahold of the covenant promises – by faith – entered into a relationship with God and experienced personal salvation.

The people of God in both dispensations were known by the same names – God’s chosen people, children of Abraham, the assembly or congregation (ecclesia – imperfectly interpreted ‘Church’), and the circumsion. The Roman Catholic Church made the Church into a human institution instead of a spiritual organism. The Dispensationalists similarly made the Church into an institution - mistakenly arguing that it saw its birth at Pentecost. This has become a common misconception - as can be seen by the Left Behind novels.

Even the label Christian was only introduced in Acts 11:26. Before that Christ’s followers were simply known as disciples. Acts says, “he (Barnabus) brought him (Saul) unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” However, this term is only found 3 times in the Bible. The description ‘disciple’ is found 269 times in the New Testament. I am not suggesting that we should not use the term Christian (far from it), but that we shouldn't strictly restrict it to a time following Antioch. I believe the religious concept that prior to Christ the true religion was Judaism and after Christ it was Christianity is not fully accurate. In some way the faith has always been Christian (Christ – Christos – being the Greek word for Messiah). The saints of old have always been Messianic (or followers of Christ). That has been the sign of a true believer under the old covenant. Equally, true Judaism is what a follower of Christ (Messiah) enters into upon salvation in our day.

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states,“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.”

Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church,“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

Colossians 2:11-14 declares, “ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

Salvation has never been by race, but by grace.

Christ is the fulfilment of every law, commandment and ordinance in the Old Testament. He is “the way, the truth and the life.” He has been man’s only hope of salvation.

There is therefore a unity among believers regardless of their birthday and nationality. They have been made one through Christ. The believer of whatever race has become a true Jew having his heart circumcised (the only circumcision that matters today). The elect of all time belong to the Olive tree – and include Jew and Gentile in the old and new administration. These are the true covenant children of Abraham. Those that are not saved (irrespective of whether they are Jew or Gentile) do not carry any right to boast of being God’s elect or His chosen people. Sadly, they are rather of their father the devil and bound for a Christless lost eternity.

Regards.

Paul

Reply--


Frankly, the believing people of God are one unitary tree down through time. The cross simply cemented that and marked the time when salvation would be widened out on a large-scale to a broader group – one that was hitherto unbelieving – the Gentiles

God began salvation with gentiles so this statement can not be true, as it was for the sake of all men that Israel began and men from all races have always been entering into covenant with God and becoming Israelites no matter what their flesh was or where they lived in the world.

( We must keep men like Cornelius in mind here, who expressed faith in God before his receiving the Holy Spirit, as did the widow to whom Elijah was sent and so many others like them. The idea that people have saving faith through their beliefs is merely an RCC idea, not begun by them but enshirened by them and followed by so many in the latter days under many different names. Consequently there is a difference between people who believe who are in covenant with God and those who believe who are not, who may be so at the last judgment (Mat.25) and those who think they are of the elect but are really not at all, and are therefore goats.)

What did occur from Pentecost onward was the empowerment of the believers with the Holy Spirit to overcome the works of the devil among all nations, as it had become so in Israel itself that the kingdoms of the earth had become kingdoms of satan because satan ruled in the hearts of most all men who also held authority over their lands and institutions of worship, centred at Jerusalem.

(This overcoming is progressive and is not yet completed- Rev.11:15 )

That there existed the lost sheep of the house of Israel, shows that men of true faith had been suppressed and scattered and their way of life disregarded. In short they had been overpowered by the enemies of the truth. Ez 34. and still occurring to this day as the battles ebb and flow through the generations.


Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men. For they will betray you to sanhedrins, and they will flog you in their synagogues.
Mat 10:18 And also you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them and to the nations.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious how or what you should say, for it is given to you in that hour what you should say.
Mat 10:20 For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
Mat 10:21 But brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child. And children will rise up against parents and will put them to death.
Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but the one enduring to the end shall be kept safe.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For truly I say to you, In no way will you have finished the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
Mat 10:24 A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above his lord.
Mat 10:25It is enough for the disciple to become as his teacher, and the slave as his lord. If they called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more those of his household?
Merton.

MessiahsFollower
Feb 24th 2008, 01:28 AM
Just a quick interjection.
When Jesus came, he wasn't abolishing the laws of the OT, he was FULFILLING them.
The New Covenant wasn't a "replacement" or "change" of the Old Covenant, it was the COMPLETION.
The only thing left remaining is Christ's return.

Jesus still has One Plan.

Abraham was to be the father of MANY nations. Not a single nation.
This includes ALL ethnicities, regardless the location of "Real estate".

God's promise wasn't some small strip of land on the Earth, it WAS the Earth.

Israel, in respect to their "Judgment", has already been punished. It was prophecied about, & happened.

For people to think God is going to take "the church" out, & punish "Israel" 2000 years later, for seven years, is insane!
Talk about Anti-Semitism!!!
SHEEEESH!

How many times must someone read, Galations to understand??

Gal 3:26-29 26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=7&y=8#) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=7&y=8#) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=7&y=8#) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=7&y=8#) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I can sort of see from a historic perspective why Jewish people today might see things a certain way, from their traditions.....

But I'm SHOCKED that Christians would think they're "preferred" by God, over the Jews, & have some advantage in the "End Times" that gives them a "Get out of Tribulation Free Card", while the Jews are slaughtered by the millions!!!??

There is NO scriptural basis to think that.

And the worst part?
Zionist Extremists are doing everything they can, to get Jews to re-gather in Israel, build a NEW temple, in order to somehow "USHER IN" an AntiChrist?

**Red Flags should be going off about now because, that kind of thinking is flat WRONG!!!!,**

How is it "OUR" repsonsibility, or even within our ability to speed up Jesus' return? It's not up to us..... That time has already been determined by our Father in Heaven.

And there's no distinction by race, or real estate that determines anything.

Thank You.................

wpm
Feb 24th 2008, 03:31 AM
Further more quoting NT scripture does not prove that the Jews killed prophets. They maybe interwined to Christians but to the Jewish faith the OT is the only one that matters.

They are no different from the Christ-rejecting Gentile. That is why most of them are going to hell. They reject man's only provision for sin and uncleanness - the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul

wpm
Feb 24th 2008, 03:33 AM
Thats the problem most cannot hear or accept it. I am not offended by Bibilcal truth it says what it says. "Sola Scriptura" Scripture for Scripture. Just that folks have a misguided conception about the Jews. I have this defense mechanism that just kicks in when ever there is an attack on the Jewish faith. Its all good. No worries here. My belief is still there. Like you I call them as I see them weather people agree with me or not.

Galatians 3:28-29 says, “there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: For ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Paul

wpm
Feb 24th 2008, 03:39 AM
Reply--



God began salvation with gentiles so this statement can not be true, as it was for the sake of all men that Israel began and men from all races have always been entering into covenant with God and becoming Israelites no matter what their flesh was or where they lived in the world.

( We must keep men like Cornelius in mind here, who expressed faith in God before his receiving the Holy Spirit, as did the widow to whom Elijah was sent and so many others like them. The idea that people have saving faith through their beliefs is merely an RCC idea, not begun by them but enshirened by them and followed by so many in the latter days under many different names. Consequently there is a difference between people who believe who are in covenant with God and those who believe who are not, who may be so at the last judgment (Mat.25) and those who think they are of the elect but are really not at all, and are therefore goats.)

What did occur from Pentecost onward was the empowerment of the believers with the Holy Spirit to overcome the works of the devil among all nations, as it had become so in Israel itself that the kingdoms of the earth had become kingdoms of satan because satan ruled in the hearts of most all men who also held authority over their lands and institutions of worship, centred at Jerusalem.

(This overcoming is progressive and is not yet completed- Rev.11:15 )

That there existed the lost sheep of the house of Israel, shows that men of true faith had been suppressed and scattered and their way of life disregarded. In short they had been overpowered by the enemies of the truth. Ez 34. and still occurring to this day as the battles ebb and flow through the generations.


Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men. For they will betray you to sanhedrins, and they will flog you in their synagogues.
Mat 10:18 And also you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them and to the nations.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious how or what you should say, for it is given to you in that hour what you should say.
Mat 10:20 For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
Mat 10:21 But brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child. And children will rise up against parents and will put them to death.
Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but the one enduring to the end shall be kept safe.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For truly I say to you, In no way will you have finished the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
Mat 10:24 A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above his lord.
Mat 10:25It is enough for the disciple to become as his teacher, and the slave as his lord. If they called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more those of his household?
Merton.

From Jacob, and throughout the Old Testament, God sovereignly worked through one individual nation. He sovereignly selected natural Israel to fulfil His plan and purposes for mankind. Salvation was restricted within the borders of national Israel apart from the salvation of the Gentile city of Nineveh and the conversion to Judaism of some Gentiles during the rule of Queen Esther. The only other conversions under the old covenant were the occasional individual Gentile ones within Israel. The nation was governed by the teaching of Scripture and many within that nation came to a personal salvation in Christ. Even those who did not surrender their hearts to God were required to keep all the outward observances of the law. That did not mean that a Jew was saved by his race, heritage or birth. Each of these privileged nationals had to come to a place of personal faith.

Salvation is no longer operated through a nationalistic theocracy in this New Testament era, neither is it restricted to one lone nation. The cross changed all that. What altered was that Christ’s exclusive focus upon natural Israel was widened out to include all nations equally. The lost and rejected throughout the Gentile world have been availed an opportunity to freely enter into salvation through the atoning work of the cross. The grace of God embraces all nations today. The Lord removed the natural Israeli boundaries that existed to reach the nations. All nations, tribes and peoples today are therefore viewed the same by Christ. Israel’s previous favoured position no longer exists today. It has been eternally removed by Christ and the new eternal covenant arrangement. God now works through a spiritual nation that transcends all the national borders of the world and embraces all nations. This is his only structure on this earth; it is the only spiritual edifice that He recognises and uses for His glory.

Paul

wpm
Feb 24th 2008, 03:43 AM
Where do you get this kill the prophets junk? The OT does declare what you say if you read what I wrote it says they do not believe that the OT fulfilled the prophecy. Information here, the Jews do not recognoze the NT they only recognize the OT (Torah) Also I was speaking in present tense when I spoke of the 80% not the Biblical sense. If people would take sola scriptura instead of trying to read things into thats not there. People can rant and rave and jump up and down but the Jewish state of Israel is Gods chosen. Sure they are going to suffer for their insurrection its been written. But before someone goes spouting off they should know the Torah or at least some of it....

Do you believe that Jews that reject Christ are God's chosen people?

Paul

Merton
Feb 24th 2008, 11:45 AM
From Jacob, and throughout the Old Testament, God sovereignly worked through one individual nation. He sovereignly selected natural Israel to fulfil His plan and purposes for mankind. Salvation was restricted within the borders of national Israel apart from the salvation of the Gentile city of Nineveh and the conversion to Judaism of some Gentiles during the rule of Queen Esther.

We have the time from Adam to Noah where Israel did not exist, and even after some time until Abraham, Israel did not exist, and even then it took some time for a nation to come into being from Abraham which consisted of many Gentiles of the flesh as well as Abraham himself and his descendants wives and coming into Israel thereafter were many gentiles.

The nation of Israel did not exist at all at some times of history, so no, salvation was not restricted to within the borders of natural Israel at any time but was predicated on peoples receiving of Gods word spoken by the mouths of the prophets to the people throughout the OT recorded history.



The only other conversions under the old covenant were the occasional individual Gentile ones within Israel. The nation was governed by the teaching of Scripture and many within that nation came to a personal salvation in Christ. Even those who did not surrender their hearts to God were required to keep all the outward observances of the law. That did not mean that a Jew was saved by his race, heritage or birth. Each of these privileged nationals had to come to a place of personal faith.

New Testament salvation is more than believing in the future promises of the Messiah and the coming Kingdom of God with accompanying separation from sinful practices and obedience to Gods law as they in the OT did.

Jesus preached an extent of salvation experience to which all who were obedient under the law could never attain to until Christ came to make it possible, so that even John the Baptist was the not as great as one who is in the Kingdom of God as Jesus was and all who follow Him through the Spirit to the crucifixion of their self life becomes.

Therefore, many of the believing persons of the OT to whom the Spirit did not speak personally to and who did not walk with God as Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, and men like David did, will not be accounted as members of the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem, but will be saved ultimately nevertheless with the sheep who enter the Kingdom for the first time at that time, and not with the resurrected saints who are standing with Christ at that judgment.

The qualification required that one should be in the first resurrection is far greater than is required of believers who are not called to it like most of those of the OT and many also during NT times.

It just is not true that one is always a child of the devil until becoming a child of God.





Merton.

the rookie
Feb 24th 2008, 10:32 PM
Thanks Rookie.

But whatever we believe re the end-times and whatever amount of Jews come through for Christ in the future, they enter into the same lone organism that all the rest of the saints down through time have - the good olive tree. There is no other vehicle. This is the spiritual congregation of God's elect. All partake through the blood of Jesus - and none other means. There is no other arrangement for the people of God.

As we know, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:29, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). The sinner (of all nationalities) enters exclusively into communion with God through regeneration and the new birth experience.

Paul

Fully agree! Good stuff, Paul!

It's good for Gentiles to remember that it is a Hebrew olive tree we are being grafted into; it is also good for us to keep in mind Paul's hint that some that were previously cut off may be "re-grafted" in as well - to their own tree. (Rom. 11:23)

Paul is clear that, by the mercy of God, we are grafted into Jewish promises, covenants, glory, the giving of the law, the service of God, etc. (Rom. 9:3) This fact, in Paul's estimation, should keep Gentiles humble and fearful of God rather than haughty in their position versus the fall of the Israelites which is partial and temporal (Rom. 11:20, 25).

the rookie
Feb 24th 2008, 10:34 PM
Sorry, by the way - I haven't been following the discussion, so I hope no one takes the above personally; those are just good principles to keep in mind for any Gentile believer (like those whom Paul was addressing).

Ry-Guy
Feb 25th 2008, 04:46 AM
Are you suggesting that God has 2 peoples? Do you not believe that God's chosen are part of the one organism (irrespective of time) through faith - the good olive tree?

Paul

In 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12 make it clear that though we are part of one "organism" it is a body that has many members with different functions. It isn't some homogeneous "one" that we become part of. Though both these verses are more addressing the different functions of individual believers the Old Testament contains plenty of references to functions for nations both in the past and for Israel in the future.

wpm
Feb 25th 2008, 05:58 AM
We have the time from Adam to Noah where Israel did not exist, and even after some time until Abraham, Israel did not exist, and even then it took some time for a nation to come into being from Abraham which consisted of many Gentiles of the flesh as well as Abraham himself and his descendants wives and coming into Israel thereafter were many gentiles.

The nation of Israel did not exist at all at some times of history, so no, salvation was not restricted to within the borders of natural Israel at any time but was predicated on peoples receiving of Gods word spoken by the mouths of the prophets to the people throughout the OT recorded history.


From Adam to Abraham the fellowship between God and His people was realised through individual families, and the worship of God was restricted to the individual family structure. However, when God raised up Abraham He promised him both a physical and a spiritual lineage, the latter of which would be brought into spiritual union with God through the medium of faith. God says in Genesis 17:5-6, “a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.”

The Hebrew name goes back further than the name Jew. That is why I traced things back to Jacob. But the law wasn't brought in until Moses. The children of Israel indeed God's choice people. Amos 3:2 says of Israel: "You only have I known of all the families of the earth."



New Testament salvation is more than believing in the future promises of the Messiah and the coming Kingdom of God with accompanying separation from sinful practices and obedience to Gods law as they in the OT did.

When did I say this? You are placing an interpretation upon my writings that I never said or intended.


Jesus preached an extent of salvation experience to which all who were obedient under the law could never attain to until Christ came to make it possible, so that even John the Baptist was the not as great as one who is in the Kingdom of God as Jesus was and all who follow Him through the Spirit to the crucifixion of their self life becomes.

I don't know what this means.


Therefore, many of the believing persons of the OT to whom the Spirit did not speak personally to and who did not walk with God as Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, and men like David did, will not be accounted as members of the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem,

So does God have 2 brides?


but will be saved ultimately nevertheless with the sheep who enter the Kingdom for the first time at that time, and not with the resurrected saints who are standing with Christ at that judgment.

God's chosen people in both the old and new are known as sheep. So, I don't know where you got this from. There has only been one people of God. Are there 2 good olive trees? There must be in what you are saying.



The qualification required that one should be in the first resurrection is far greater than is required of believers who are not called to it like most of those of the OT and many also during NT times.


The first resurrection was Christ's. Anyone that is not found in His glorious resurrection throughout time is lost. I think your difficulty here is your understanding of the first resurrection.


It just is not true that one is always a child of the devil until becoming a child of God.

Please explain. You make these type of statement but don't back them up with Scripture. 2 Cor 4:4 says, "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Saved or lost, heaven or hell, Christ's or Satan's. That is the Gospel message!

Paul

wpm
Feb 25th 2008, 06:04 AM
the Old Testament contains plenty of references to functions ... for Israel in the future.

Please expand.

Paul

Merton
Feb 25th 2008, 11:41 AM
Pauls words in black.

We have the time from Adam to Noah where Israel did not exist, and even after some time until Abraham, Israel did not exist, and even then it took some time for a nation to come into being from Abraham which consisted of many Gentiles of the flesh as well as Abraham himself and his descendants wives and coming into Israel thereafter were many gentiles.

The nation of Israel did not exist at all at some times of history, so no, salvation was not restricted to within the borders of natural Israel at any time but was predicated on peoples receiving of Gods word spoken by the mouths of the prophets to the people throughout the OT recorded history.



From Adam to Abraham the fellowship between God and His people was realised through individual families, and the worship of God was restricted to the individual family structure. However, when God raised up Abraham He promised him both a physical and a spiritual lineage, the latter of which would be brought into spiritual union with God through the medium of faith. God says in Genesis 17:5-6, “a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.”

The Hebrew name goes back further than the name Jew. That is why I traced things back to Jacob. But the law wasn't brought in until Moses. The children of Israel indeed God's choice people. Amos 3:2 says of Israel: "You only have I known of all the families of the earth."




Paul, you made the statement that God has always worked through His nation of Israel. Clearly your statement was not correct.




New Testament salvation is more than believing in the future promises of the Messiah and the coming Kingdom of God with accompanying separation from sinful practices and obedience to Gods law as they in the OT did.


When did I say this? You are placing an interpretation upon my writings that I never said or intended.



Paul,
By your grouping all saved mankind as being the same in salvation. I am merely pointing out to you that the salvation into which one enters by the blood of Christ in the NT is described as an enterance into the Holy Place, which enterance under the law was for the priests alone while the bulk of Gods people stood at the first door to the temple, and it is so that while one must believe God to be saved eternally, there remains a distinction between the Priests of the coming Kingdom of God on earth after the resurrection, and the general population of believers of that time.

Priests of the coming age are not necessary when there are no people to be priests to, therefore the new Jerusalem of Kings and Priests of ch 21 is not a picture of the eternal situation when God will be all in all, but is the time of the millennium wherein the resurrected will reign over the mortal, and nations will not learn war and shall present themselves in procession before the company of the resurrected saints among whom is Jesus in the glory of the Father with the Holy angels.

Therefore only those who have overcome as Jesus has overcome shall be granted to sit with Him in His Fathers Throne and that disqualifies the sheep of the sheep goats judgment straight off, without mentioning the great number of believers who never entered into such a relationship with God through Christ which is required in order to overcome as He did.









Jesus preached an extent of salvation experience to which all who were obedient under the law could never attain to until Christ came to make it possible, so that even John the Baptist was the not as great as one who is in the Kingdom of God as Jesus was and all who follow Him through the Spirit to the crucifixion of their self life becomes.


I don't know what this means.



Then how will anyone overcome as Christ overcame without knowing what that means?




Therefore, many of the believing persons of the OT to whom the Spirit did not speak personally to and who did not walk with God as Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, and men like David did, will not be accounted as members of the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem,


So does God have 2 brides?



Paul,


Brides are for the reproduction of the family. After the millenium there is no need for a Bride in Gods plan for mankind when God will be ALL in ALL (1 Cor.15)


We are only now near the beginning of Gods plan for mankind as Jesus and his Bride will have children and restore the earth as typed in Genesis with Adam and Eve who fell short of the thousand years symbolically speaking.




but will be saved ultimately nevertheless with the sheep who enter the Kingdom for the first time at that time, and not with the resurrected saints who are standing with Christ at that judgment.


God's chosen people in both the old and new are known as sheep. So, I don't know where you got this from. There has only been one people of God. Are there 2 good olive trees? There must be in what you are saying.


There is one people of God but there are sons of the resurrection while there remains a multitude of mortal believers who at the time of the resurrection are only then being shepherded to living waters,( this is the vision described in Rev.ch 7. ) Only after the last judgment will saved men all be equal before God in their calling (which is when God is ALL in ALL.)

The prophecy of there being one shepherd and one flock spoke of a time future to when it was prophecied.



Quote:
The qualification required that one should be in the first resurrection is far greater than is required of believers who are not called to it like most of those of the OT and many also during NT times.


The first resurrection was Christ's. Anyone that is not found in His glorious resurrection throughout time is lost. I think your difficulty here is your understanding of the first resurrection.



It was impossible for any man to receive eternal life dwelling in him until Christ made the way, as the way to eat of the tree of life was shut off when Adam sinned.

So it is not possible that OT believers of any calling could have participated in the first resurrection before Christs resurrection, even if the first resurrection is describing conversion and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, which it is not.



Quote:
It just is not true that one is always a child of the devil until becoming a child of God.


Please explain. You make these type of statement but don't back them up with Scripture. 2 Cor 4:4 says, "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Saved or lost, heaven or hell, Christ's or Satan's. That is the Gospel message!

That is not the gospel of the Kingdom of God, but yes that is the final destinations of man.

Men choose Christ in order to be saved (they must receive the love of the truth ) or refuse Christ to be lost, but those who "believe not" are those who have heard and refused, which is not the situation of children for example, and even Lots children were saved from Gods wrath of the time by a simple act of believing what the angels and their father likely said to do.


Many from among the nations will enter mortally into the time period on the earth after Christ returns simply because they obey the messages of the three angels of Rev.14 spoken to them by the overcomers in this age before their (the overcomers) resurrection.

The mortal believers of the millenium will not be qualified to reign with Christ in His Throne because they shall never live in the conditions on the earth as Christ and His Bride do, but it is quite in order that some or many men and women shall enter into their bodily resurrection as God so wills during that time.


Merton.

Romulus
Feb 25th 2008, 03:56 PM
There needs to be a better understanding of the Torah and Judaism here. People seem to forget where their Christian roots were born...it sure wasn't under the Tree of Forbidden Fruit. Further more quoting NT scripture does not prove that the Jews killed prophets. They maybe interwined to Christians but to the Jewish faith the OT is the only one that matters. I am pro Israel and I take offense when people just take pot shots at them with no solid proof except for scripture that does not say the Jews killed anyone. Gods word is not wrong never has been never will. I ain't mad at no one just people do not try to understand because their minds are so narrow they cannot see the forest for the trees. Good debate here folks but I better stay out of it because of my strong belief in the Jews. Pinky we are cool no hard feelings......

A different P.O.V. is that the scriptures mentioning Israel being guilty of killing the prophets was meant only for that generation in the 1st century in accordance with Matthew 23. Who was Jesus addressing? Was it not Israel of 30 A.D.? That was the audience. Israel today has absolutely nothing to do with murdering the prophets and a future judgement in synogogues of Christians as prophecied in Matthew 24. Christ was addressing covenant rejecting Israel of the 1st century. Israel today is no different then anyone today who rejects the Gospel.

Blessings!

wpm
Feb 25th 2008, 07:42 PM
Merton



We have the time from Adam to Noah where Israel did not exist, and even after some time until Abraham, Israel did not exist, and even then it took some time for a nation to come into being from Abraham which consisted of many Gentiles of the flesh as well as Abraham himself and his descendants wives and coming into Israel thereafter were many gentiles.

The nation of Israel did not exist at all at some times of history, so no, salvation was not restricted to within the borders of natural Israel at any time but was predicated on peoples receiving of Gods word spoken by the mouths of the prophets to the people throughout the OT recorded history.


You are really missing my overall point: The elect of all time belong to the one good Olive tree – and include Jew and Gentile in the old and new administration.

I accept that the fellowship between God and His people from Adam to Abraham was not operated through a national vehicle, it was realised through individual families. It is true it doesn't say they were Hebrew, Jew or Israeli at this time. This was merely a temporal development in the plan of God. However, it was His will to work through a nation - as Scripture teaches, this is seen through God's calling out of Abraham - a Hebrew (Gen 14:13).

It was through Abraham and his Hebrew offspring that God in His wisdom would display His grace. It was both a natural and spiritual lineage.

The law was not applied to the people of God until it became a structured congregation (ecclesia). When the old covenant started to take the form that God had ordained for it the people of God became an assembly of nationals (ecclesia)..

Once God's plan developed the children of Israel are shown as God's special people. Amos 3:2 says of Israel: "You only have I known of all the families of the earth." This is something you fail to acknowledge.



By your grouping all saved mankind as being the same in salvation. I am merely pointing out to you that the salvation into which one enters by the blood of Christ in the NT is described as an enterance into the Holy Place, which enterance under the law was for the priests alone while the bulk of Gods people stood at the first door to the temple, and it is so that while one must believe God to be saved eternally, there remains a distinction between the Priests of the coming Kingdom of God on earth after the resurrection, and the general population of believers of that time.

Priests of the coming age are not necessary when there are no people to be priests to, therefore the new Jerusalem of Kings and Priests of ch 21 is not a picture of the eternal situation when God will be all in all, but is the time of the millennium wherein the resurrected will reign over the mortal, and nations will not learn war and shall present themselves in procession before the company of the resurrected saints among whom is Jesus in the glory of the Father with the Holy angels.

Therefore only those who have overcome as Jesus has overcome shall be granted to sit with Him in His Fathers Throne and that disqualifies the sheep of the sheep goats judgment straight off, without mentioning the great number of believers who never entered into such a relationship with God through Christ which is required in order to overcome as He did.

Jesus preached an extent of salvation experience to which all who were obedient under the law could never attain to until Christ came to make it possible, so that even John the Baptist was the not as great as one who is in the Kingdom of God as Jesus was and all who follow Him through the Spirit to the crucifixion of their self life becomes.


The awful “condemnation” that afflicts every man since the fall through inherited sin is only removed “in Christ” through the new birth experience. Through salvation the penitent is fully justified and “made righteous” in the eyes of God. He is taken instantly from spiritual death into spiritual life by being raised from a horrible spiritual grave. We can therefore see “in Adam all die” (1 Corinthians 15:22) – that is both physically and spiritually – whereas “in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22).

In the first Adam we are destined to eternal death, whereas in Christ (the second or last Adam) we are assured eternal life. All mankind is thus legally represented in one or other Adam – the first Adam who brings condemnation and eternal death or the second Adam who brings deliverance and eternal life. If all were dead in sin, then they similarly can only be revived in Christ.

What you are proposing is 2 different types of salvation. One for the OT saints and another for the NT saints. This cannot be. The redeemed are (and always have been) saved by grace through faith in Christ. They possess the Spirit of the living God and belong to a heavenly city. What you are missing is that God has always viewed men in one of two camps - those of promise and those of the evil one. The saints are found in Christ, the wicked are found in Adam. This arrangement has been in place since Adam. Saved or lost!!!

I asked: "So does God have 2 brides?"

You replied:



Brides are for the reproduction of the family. After the millenium there is no need for a Bride in Gods plan for mankind when God will be ALL in ALL (1 Cor.15)


Where did you get that from? A marriage is more that procreation. It is first and foremost a love affair. Secondly, it involves an unbreakable covenant. This is what the spiritual union of Christ and His bride (from Adam) consists of. Anyway, in eternity (after the current kingdom age) the elect are described still described as the bride/wife.

Revelation 21:1-2 confirms, speaking of the new heaven and new earth: "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband"

Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”



We are only now near the beginning of Gods plan for mankind as Jesus and his Bride will have children and restore the earth as typed in Genesis with Adam and Eve who fell short of the thousand years symbolically speaking...

There is one people of God but there are sons of the resurrection while there remains a multitude of mortal believers who at the time of the resurrection are only then being shepherded to living waters,( this is the vision described in Rev.ch 7. ) Only after the last judgment will saved men all be equal before God in their calling (which is when God is ALL in ALL.)...

Many from among the nations will enter mortally into the time period on the earth after Christ returns simply because they obey the messages of the three angels of Rev.14 spoken to them by the overcomers in this age before their (the overcomers) resurrection.

The mortal believers of the millenium will not be qualified to reign with Christ in His Throne because they shall never live in the conditions on the earth as Christ and His Bride do, but it is quite in order that some or many men and women shall enter into their bodily resurrection as God so wills during that time.


Firstly, how can the glorified saints reproduce on the new earth? They will have to be perfect (being arrayed in new bodies) to even inherit it.

1 Corinthians 15:50 tells us of the Second Coming: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. Corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.

In your argument, you appear to populate the new incorruptible earth with countless corruptible Christ-rejecters.


but will be saved ultimately nevertheless with the sheep who enter the Kingdom for the first time at that time, and not with the resurrected saints who are standing with Christ at that judgment.

Again, you keep suggesting that God has an elect that is extra to the sheep. What I am saying is that you have not presented any evidence that would remotely suggest that. I told you: God's chosen people in both the old and new are known as sheep.



It was impossible for any man to receive eternal life dwelling in him until Christ made the way, as the way to eat of the tree of life was shut off when Adam sinned.

So it is not possible that OT believers of any calling could have participated in the first resurrection before Christs resurrection, even if the first resurrection is describing conversion and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, which it is not.


They did by faith, just like us. They looked forward, we look back. However, it was the same transaction that saved all the elect from Adam - Jesus Christ and His shed blood at Calvary. The OT ritual, ordinance or sacrifice of itself had no innate saving ability, it was simply a signpost to the only Saviour of mankind. It was the exercise of faith in Christ (in whatever veiled form it came) in the OT by (Jew and Gentile alike) that saved a man. It is the same for us today. There is no salvation outside of Christ. He was the first resurrection.

I said: "Saved or lost, heaven or hell, Christ's or Satan's. That is the Gospel message!"

You replied:



That is not the gospel of the Kingdom of God, but yes that is the final destinations of man.


I beg to differ. I refer you back to the Word of God.

Jesus said, in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” If the Jew loves Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

Jesus said in John 6:40, “this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

This statement was an offence to the religious men of Christ’s day, as it is to every Christ-rejecter today. What Christ was emphasising was that if someone wants to come into communion with Almighty God they must come exclusively through Himself. He is the way – the only way. The next verse following this statement testifies to this saying, “The Jews then murmured at him.”



Paul

DeafPosttrib
Feb 25th 2008, 07:50 PM
wpm,

Amen, well saying!

Merton, I suggest you to read Ephesians chapter 2 talking about Calvary reconciled both Jews and Gentiles became one, it already fulfilled 2000 years ago. Now, God have one wife/bride. If God have two wives now, then isn't God commit adultery?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

wpm
Feb 25th 2008, 08:18 PM
A different P.O.V. is that the scriptures mentioning Israel being guilty of killing the prophets was meant only for that generation in the 1st century in accordance with Matthew 23. Who was Jesus addressing? Was it not Israel of 30 A.D.? That was the audience. Israel today has absolutely nothing to do with murdering the prophets and a future judgement in synogogues of Christians as prophecied in Matthew 24. Christ was addressing covenant rejecting Israel of the 1st century. Israel today is no different then anyone today who rejects the Gospel.

Blessings!

Acts 2:36 says, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 4:10 states, “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.”

Paul

Merton
Feb 25th 2008, 11:11 PM
wpm,

Amen, well saying!

Merton, I suggest you to read Ephesians chapter 2 talking about Calvary reconciled both Jews and Gentiles became one, it already fulfilled 2000 years ago. Now, God have one wife/bride. If God have two wives now, then isn't God commit adultery?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DPT,

I did not ever suggest that God has two brides, that was only Pauls suggestion.

Paul is saying that men of faith were members of the Bride of Christ before Christ made it possible through His death and resurrection.

This would have placed the Bride of Christ under the law in the OT which is impossible and a sin according to Romans chapter 7 and Galations.

I will get back later to Paul.

Merton.

wpm
Feb 25th 2008, 11:49 PM
DPT,

I did not ever suggest that God has two brides, that was only Pauls suggestion.

Paul is saying that men of faith were members of the Bride of Christ before Christ made it possible through His death and resurrection.

This would have placed the Bride of Christ under the law in the OT which is impossible and a sin according to Romans chapter 7 and Galations.

I will get back later to Paul.

Merton.

But believing Israel was married to God in the OT, just like the NT bride was.

Isa 54:5-6 tells us: "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God."

Ezek 16:32-33 confirms, "But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband! They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom."

Hos 2:19-20 tells us: "I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD."

So, are we part of this union or not?

Paul

Merton
Feb 26th 2008, 05:16 AM
But believing Israel was married to God in the OT, just like the NT bride was.

Isa 54:5-6 tells us: "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God."

Ezek 16:32-33 confirms, "But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband! They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom."

Hos 2:19-20 tells us: "I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD."

So, are we part of this union or not?

Paul



Paul,

So you are saying that the members of Israel who did not believe Christ and were cut off the tree, were once members of the Bride of Christ.

You are also saying by implication that not one person throughout history who was not a member of Israel will ever be saved.

You said that God only ever worked through members of Israel, then you changed it to families, but you forgot the single men of history, yet for whose sake was Israel bought into being?

Was it for themselves alone or was it for the sake of all nations? If none are saved of those nations without being a member of Israel of the OT then why was it not preached as a necessity?

No Paul, none of the believers of the OC or before that were ever members of the Bride of Christ. The Bride is a newly instituted body which began at Pentecost which required that the same Spirit which dwelt in Christ should also dwell in them.

All before the time of Jesus first coming and Pentecost, God gave prophecy and law which foretold its coming into being.

Do you suppose that King Hiram of 2 Chron ch 1-9 will never be saved, or was really a secret member of the Bride of Christ, yet he clearly had faith and blessed Israel as did the Queen of Sheba and countless others who never became members of Israel of the OT.

So many will be saved in the sheep goat judgment according to Jesus own words---


Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And indeed He will set the sheep off His right, but the goats off the left hand.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You; or thirsting, and gave You drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?
Mat 25:40 And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, In so far as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me.

Do you really believe that these sheep here at this judgment were members of the Bride of Christ who did not know that ministering to Jesus brethren was the same as ministering to Jesus Himself.

Then there are the unwise virgins who you would insist are sent into hell because they did not have the wisdom to enter into the resurrection at Christ's return, which of nothing in the text says so, only that the door was shut to them because they did not have an intimate relationship with Christ through the indwelling Spirit. (the word "know" shows this).

Clearly the unwise did know of Christ very well, and that they dwelt with the wise shows this to be the case, but they were not beast worshippers or do you suppose that beast worshippers would be dwelling with the righteous at that time? Of course not, but Rev.13 shows that all who are not of the elect will worship the beast, and many do give Glory to God at the resurrection who do not go up in it Rev.11

You have to lump all into being one group because you see no reign of Christ with the resurrected saints on the earth (after the bodily resurrection) before the present earth is burnt up at the last judgment, when only then is God ALL in ALL.

I am explaining to you using scripture just what the scripture does say, because God has revealed this to me and it encourages those who are seeing the same or similar, not to convert yourself to my view.

Only the Lord can do that if He chooses.

I did not know of the millennium when I was not worthy of it, but I had never embraced the dispensational view at any time.

Paul the apostle, writing by God, was very particular concerning the manner of life which one must have in order to be in the first resurrection at Christ's return, and that leaves out most every believer in the OT from ever being saved, if your view was correct, which it is not.

Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of (out from among)the dead.

"out from among the dead" is the correct wording.

Merton.

wpm
Feb 26th 2008, 03:06 PM
Paul,

So you are saying that the members of Israel who did not believe Christ and were cut off the tree, were once members of the Bride of Christ.

You are also saying by implication that not one person throughout history who was not a member of Israel will ever be saved.

You said that God only ever worked through members of Israel, then you changed it to families, but you forgot the single men of history, yet for whose sake was Israel bought into being?

Was it for themselves alone or was it for the sake of all nations? If none are saved of those nations without being a member of Israel of the OT then why was it not preached as a necessity?

No Paul, none of the believers of the OC or before that were ever members of the Bride of Christ. The Bride is a newly instituted body which began at Pentecost which required that the same Spirit which dwelt in Christ should also dwell in them.

All before the time of Jesus first coming and Pentecost, God gave prophecy and law which foretold its coming into being.

Do you suppose that King Hiram of 2 Chron ch 1-9 will never be saved, or was really a secret member of the Bride of Christ, yet he clearly had faith and blessed Israel as did the Queen of Sheba and countless others who never became members of Israel of the OT.

So many will be saved in the sheep goat judgment according to Jesus own words---


Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And indeed He will set the sheep off His right, but the goats off the left hand.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You; or thirsting, and gave You drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?
Mat 25:40 And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, In so far as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me.

Do you really believe that these sheep here at this judgment were members of the Bride of Christ who did not know that ministering to Jesus brethren was the same as ministering to Jesus Himself.

Then there are the unwise virgins who you would insist are sent into hell because they did not have the wisdom to enter into the resurrection at Christ's return, which of nothing in the text says so, only that the door was shut to them because they did not have an intimate relationship with Christ through the indwelling Spirit. (the word "know" shows this).

Clearly the unwise did know of Christ very well, and that they dwelt with the wise shows this to be the case, but they were not beast worshippers or do you suppose that beast worshippers would be dwelling with the righteous at that time? Of course not, but Rev.13 shows that all who are not of the elect will worship the beast, and many do give Glory to God at the resurrection who do not go up in it Rev.11

You have to lump all into being one group because you see no reign of Christ with the resurrected saints on the earth (after the bodily resurrection) before the present earth is burnt up at the last judgment, when only then is God ALL in ALL.

I am explaining to you using scripture just what the scripture does say, because God has revealed this to me and it encourages those who are seeing the same or similar, not to convert yourself to my view.

Only the Lord can do that if He chooses.

I did not know of the millennium when I was not worthy of it, but I had never embraced the dispensational view at any time.

Paul the apostle, writing by God, was very particular concerning the manner of life which one must have in order to be in the first resurrection at Christ's return, and that leaves out most every believer in the OT from ever being saved, if your view was correct, which it is not.

Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of (out from among)the dead.

"out from among the dead" is the correct wording.

Merton.




Merton

Salvation has never come from ethnic birth; it comes through accepting Christ as Saviour. I have never said anything other than this. The fact that the Gospel was mainly concentrated on the Jews in the OT and the Gentiles in the NT does not negate that fact. I wish you would stop making false assertions. I also wish you would address my queries and points directly instead of circumventing them. You have sidestepped most of my last extended reply to you and diverted off on a tangent. I refer you back to it.

I will add a further question (because you seem to be dismissing my contention): If I am wrong, can you list all the Gentile villages, towns and cities that experienced the Gospel from Abraham (or from Israel became a nation) apart from Ninevah, before Christ's earthly ministry?

Paul

John146
Feb 26th 2008, 08:19 PM
Merton

You are really missing my overall point: The elect of all time belong to the one good Olive tree – and include Jew and Gentile in the old and new administration.


What you are proposing is 2 different types of salvation. One for the OT saints and another for the NT saints. This cannot be. The redeemed are (and always have been) saved by grace through faith in Christ. They possess the Spirit of the living God and belong to a heavenly city. What you are missing is that God has always viewed men in one of two camps - those of promise and those of the evil one. The saints are found in Christ, the wicked are found in Adam. This arrangement has been in place since Adam. Saved or lost!!!
Absolutely, Paul! Amen!



Firstly, how can the glorified saints reproduce on the new earth? They will have to be perfect (being arrayed in new bodies) to even inherit it.

1 Corinthians 15:50 tells us of the Second Coming: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. Corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.

In your argument, you appear to populate the new incorruptible earth with countless corruptible Christ-rejecters.
I agree. Peter says that the new earth is a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness". With that in mind, how can mortal sinners dwell there? There shall be no more death (Rev 21:4). Death shall be swallowed up in victory (1 Cor 15:54) and cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14).

John146
Feb 26th 2008, 08:36 PM
Then there are the unwise virgins who you would insist are sent into hell because they did not have the wisdom to enter into the resurrection at Christ's return, which of nothing in the text says so, only that the door was shut to them because they did not have an intimate relationship with Christ through the indwelling Spirit. (the word "know" shows this).

The unwise virgins are indeed sent into hell, or rather the lake of fire. Look at the supporting Scripture that goes along with Matthew 25:1-13. What happens when they will say, "Lord, Lord, open the door for us"? Let's see what it says elsewhere.

23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. - Luke 13:23-28

So, Jesus says when they say "Lord, Lord, open unto us" He will tell them He does not know them and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and they will be thrust out. Thrust out where? Let's look for more supporting Scripture.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:15-23

So, when HE says "depart from me, ye that work iniquity, where do they depart to? Look at verse 19 above. They are cast into the fire on the day of judgment. The lake of fire.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:41,46

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. - Rev 20:15