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Redeemed by Grace
Feb 25th 2008, 12:51 PM
Hi TM
In a previous post I claimed that obedience was essential for salvation. You replied that I had fallen into a legalistic ditch.

<SNIP>



Regards
Brakelite

If I may… Salvation is by grace through faith, and obedience is then given by God as evidence of being saved…

Dead men need to be made alive first before they can respond and do anything


For His Glory...

ProjectPeter
Feb 25th 2008, 01:13 PM
If I may… Salvation is by grace through faith, and obedience is then given by God as evidence of being saved…

Dead men need to be made alive first before they can respond and do anything


For His Glory...
Obedience is given? What Scripture would you use to support obedience as a gift of God given at salvation?

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 25th 2008, 02:01 PM
Obedience is given? What Scripture would you use to support obedience as a gift of God given at salvation?


It's an outcome of grace and faith and repentance and humility and love and wisdom and righteousness and etc --- for which are God's gifts within the call of salvation of a true believer from which obedience flows....

And I would change your question to read a bit differently

Original "What Scripture would you use to support obedience as a gift of God given at salvation?"
To: 'What Scripture would you use to support obedience as a gift of God given in salvation?'


You stated this very well within another thread.... I'm looking for this and will post it over here when I find it.... but it went something like...

'So what you are saying is that 'obedience doesn't save you but you have to have it to be saved...''' which is exactly what I would have stated if you didn't.

ProjectPeter
Feb 25th 2008, 02:12 PM
It's an outcome of grace and faith and repentance and humility and love and wisdom and righteousness and etc --- for which are God's gifts within the call of salvation of a true believer from which obedience flows....

And I would change your question to read a bit differently

Original "What Scripture would you use to support obedience as a gift of God given at salvation?"
To: 'What Scripture would you use to support obedience as a gift of God given in salvation?'


You stated this very well within another thread.... I'm looking for this and will post it over here when I find it.... but it went something like...

'So what you are saying is that 'obedience doesn't save you but you have to have it to be saved...''' which is exactly what I would have stated if you didn't.
Not sure where that makes it Scriptural that obedience is a gift though?

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 25th 2008, 02:14 PM
Not sure where that makes it Scriptural that obedience is a gift though?



It's in the same light as the understandings of rapture and Trinity... but the difference is that obedience doesn't save anyone, for that then would be works of a man that saves him. But being obedience is is evidence of one's salvation....

ProjectPeter
Feb 25th 2008, 02:39 PM
It's in the same light as the understandings of rapture and Trinity... but the difference is that obedience doesn't save anyone, for that then would be works of a man that saves him. But being obedience is is evidence of one's salvation....
I guess that's convienent for you but I think it is going to find a lot of problems biblically. Bible doesn't seem to have a problem telling us the various "gifts" but obedience isn't on any of the list I have seen. That would be one problem... there are others as well but probably need to do it in a different thread. I suppose we'd wind up derailing this one.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 25th 2008, 03:18 PM
I guess that's convienent for you but I think it is going to find a lot of problems biblically. Bible doesn't seem to have a problem telling us the various "gifts" but obedience isn't on any of the list I have seen. That would be one problem... there are others as well but probably need to do it in a different thread. I suppose we'd wind up derailing this one.


Not only convenient, but biblical.... As we've danced before, obedience to anything outside of God's faith and grace doesn't save.... but obedience within Faith and Grace are earmarks of one's salvation....

ProjectPeter
Feb 25th 2008, 03:25 PM
Not only convenient, but biblical.... As we've danced before, obedience to anything outside of God's faith and grace doesn't save.... but obedience within Faith and Grace are earmarks of one's salvation....
Not speaking of earmarks and all that. You said it was a gift and I am looking for the Scriptural support there. I'll start a thread on it later.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 25th 2008, 04:24 PM
Not speaking of earmarks and all that. You said it was a gift and I am looking for the Scriptural support there. I'll start a thread on it later.If I give you a hammer and some nails and some lumber, and with what I give you – you build a shelf, isn’t that shelf a by-product of what I gave you….? So if I asked you to build that shelf with what I first gave you, and to the specs that I describe… wouldn’t it be the same as me giving you the shelf, yet you built it?


Or another way to look at this is who built Trump Tower in NYC? To say that it was all the builders would be right, but would it also be right to say the Donald also built it?


Now combine the two… If God owns everything and His will is never thwarted, every good gift is from above and is used for His purposes, so it is very fair to say that a Christian's ability to obey is from God and that it's His gift of obedience that He also gives through His grace, faith, repentance, humility, etc....



For His glory...

ProjectPeter
Feb 25th 2008, 05:26 PM
If I give you a hammer and some nails and some lumber, and with what I give you – you build a shelf, isn’t that shelf a by-product of what I gave you….? So if I asked you to build that shelf with what I first gave you, and to the specs that I describe… wouldn’t it be the same as me giving you the shelf, yet you built it?


Or another way to look at this is who built Trump Tower in NYC? To say that it was all the builders would be right, but would it also be right to say the Donald also built it?


Now combine the two… If God owns everything and His will is never thwarted, every good gift is from above and is used for His purposes, so it is very fair to say that a Christian's ability to obey is from God and that it's His gift of obedience that He also gives through His grace, faith, repentance, humility, etc....



For His glory...
So then why is his gift so ineffective in that it fails "every day"?

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 25th 2008, 05:54 PM
So then why is his gift so ineffective in that it fails "every day"?

I don't follow.... perfection does not = obedience this side of glory.... But it does show way of growing....

ProjectPeter
Feb 26th 2008, 12:37 PM
I don't follow.... perfection does not = obedience this side of glory.... But it does show way of growing....
Ok... clarify for me. Obedience is a gift from God it is just an imperfect one?

Partaker of Christ
Feb 26th 2008, 01:42 PM
Not sure where that makes it Scriptural that obedience is a gift though?

Something like

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Obedience has to be by faith, and with love.
Were does this 'faith' and 'love' come from?

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Rom 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

ProjectPeter
Feb 26th 2008, 02:02 PM
Something like

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Obedience has to be by faith, and with love.
Were does this 'faith' and 'love' come from?

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Rom 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
Okay... and in any of those passages it calls obedience a gift... or even implies it... where?

IWalkWithHim
Feb 26th 2008, 02:03 PM
[quote=Redeemed by Grace;1551636]If I give you a hammer and some nails and some lumber, and with what I give you – you build a shelf, isn’t that shelf a by-product of what I gave you….? So if I asked you to build that shelf with what I first gave you, and to the specs that I describe… wouldn’t it be the same as me giving you the shelf, yet you built it?[quote]

Forgive me for saying so but I have one isue with this analogy. Although you gave me all the materials to do this task, provide me with the means to do it, and request that I do, the choice is still mine as to whether I choose to do it or not.

It is true that chances are, if I love and respect you, chances are good that I will complete the task for you. But just being completely honest, if you gave me materials, instructions and humble request to build a Nuclear Class Submarine, ughhhhhhh........ I might have a problem trying to fulfill that request. Because it may go beyond my means to build.

I guess what I am trying to say that the level of obedience one has to God is measurable. Some of us have a much more complex ability to obey God without question while others (maybe someone new in Christ) may not be so quick to do everything the Word of God says. Obedience grows as faith grows. I just know that there is a fine line between obedience and free will......:hmm:

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 26th 2008, 02:12 PM
1st point for the record is that this is not my thread as is indicated by the title and by the attribute as being the starter of this thread…

And for the premise and title, I never stated that obedience was a gift as this title suggests… Actually, it was coined by PP and not me…




If I may… Salvation is by grace through faith, and obedience is then given by God as evidence of being saved…

Dead men need to be made alive first before they can respond and do anything






Obedience is given? What Scripture would you use to support obedience as a gift of God given at salvation?

So having stated this, here are my precepts in defending the notion that being obedient is God working within the believer…

#1… That God is sovereign in all things…

In creation, in administration, in inanimate matter, in irrational creatures, in the children of men, in both good and evil angels, in Salvation, in reprobation, in operation, in human will, in human responsibility, in prayer, to say the least.

#2… That man’s salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, and God alone

#3… That a man’s salvation has been ordained by God before the foundation of the world, [which means before the fall of Adam and Eve, which means that the Fall was also ordained to happen by God.]

#4… That regeneration is God’s working in a man that set’s the soil for the Gospel to take hold, grow and produce fruit that He also has established beforehand.

One must be born again [regenerated] to then believe, and not that believing makes one born again…. The emphasis is God breathed and God driven, not man. And again, as many as been appointed to eternal life - believed

#5… That by God’s work, He gives faith and repentance and a heart of understanding along with His grace with salvation

#6… That God is longsuffering and desires that all should repent and believe, yet none do, but by the steps of #1-#5, he fashions out of corruptible clay, clay of honor….for His honor.

#7… That when in doubt, refer back to #1


So this topic is a non-topic to me if any of these precepts are in doubt, for these precepts, [among a few others], our my defense that the grace of God within a man; that His Spirit living within him; is the way one becomes obedient to the ways of God …. For without His gift of the Spirit, without the gift of faith, and the gift of repentance, no one can be obedient to God that is acceptable to God, for this obedience is not within a man unless given to him by and through God.



#8... all - For His Glory...

Roelof
Feb 26th 2008, 02:19 PM
I used the search engine in all of my computer Bibles and could not found "gift" and "obedience" in the same verse.

ProjectPeter
Feb 26th 2008, 02:20 PM
Before responding... tell me the title you would like and I will change it. Wouldn't want to get hung up on that. I assumed by "obedience given" that would make it a gift... but hey.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 26th 2008, 02:28 PM
Before responding... tell me the title you would like and I will change it. Wouldn't want to get hung up on that. I assumed by "obedience given" that would make it a gift... but hey.

How about Jeoparding this statement:

....being obedient is God working within the believer...

Is being obedient God's working within the believer?


But still, if the question comes down to not seeing point #1, then my contribution will always point back to this point before anything else moves forward.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 26th 2008, 02:29 PM
Okay... and in any of those passages it calls obedience a gift... or even implies it... where?

Surely you jest:o

Were does it come from if not from God?

Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

ProjectPeter
Feb 26th 2008, 02:34 PM
So having stated this, here are my precepts in defending the notion that being obedient is God working within the believer…

#1… That God is sovereign in all things…

In creation, in administration, in inanimate matter, in irrational creatures, in the children of men, in both good and evil angels, in Salvation, in reprobation, in operation, in human will, in human responsibility, in prayer, to say the least.

#2… That man’s salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, and God alone

#3… That a man’s salvation has been ordained by God before the foundation of the world, [which means before the fall of Adam and Eve, which means that the Fall was also ordained to happen by God.]

#4… That regeneration is God’s working in a man that set’s the soil for the Gospel to take hold, grow and produce fruit that He also has established beforehand.

One must be born again [regenerated] to then believe, and not that believing makes one born again…. The emphasis is God breathed and God driven, not man. And again, as many as been appointed to eternal life - believed

#5… That by God’s work, He gives faith and repentance and a heart of understanding along with His grace with salvation

#6… That God is longsuffering and desires that all should repent and believe, yet none do, but by the steps of #1-#5, he fashions out of corruptible clay, clay of honor….for His honor.

#7… That when in doubt, refer back to #1


So this topic is a non-topic to me if any of these precepts are in doubt, for these precepts, [among a few others], our my defense that the grace of God within a man; that His Spirit living within him; is the way one becomes obedient to the ways of God …. For without His gift of the Spirit, without the gift of faith, and the gift of repentance, no one can be obedient to God that is acceptable to God, for this obedience is not within a man unless given to him by and through God.



#8... all - For His Glory...I think it very safe to say that God equips us to obey. But I still don't see where obedience is given by God. There are things given to us because of our obedience yes... but obedience itself as a given?

ProjectPeter
Feb 26th 2008, 02:38 PM
How about Jeoparding this statement:

....being obedient is God working within the believer...

Is being obedient God's working within the believer?


But still, if the question comes down to not seeing point #1, then my contribution will always point back to this point before anything else moves forward.
But you said obedience was given by God... yet it is not a gift. So confused there. God giving us the equipment to do doesn't mean we're going to automatically do. Goodness... a read through the Old Testament and the Epistles should make that pretty clear I would think.

And I changed the title by the way. :)

ProjectPeter
Feb 26th 2008, 02:41 PM
Surely you jest:o

Were does it come from if not from God?

Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?And pray tell, how (in context) do you figure that passage is speaking of obedience being a gift?

9Marksfan
Feb 26th 2008, 02:44 PM
RbG and PP - do you agree on this?

God enables us to obey. That enabling is a gift.

Partaker of Christ
Feb 26th 2008, 02:58 PM
And pray tell, how (in context) do you figure that passage is speaking of obedience being a gift?

If God has freely given it, then it is a gift.

My very breath is a gift from God

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 26th 2008, 03:00 PM
RbG and PP - do you agree on this?

God enables us to obey. That enabling is a gift.

I see it as being stronger than enables, but will take enable as a start....

ProjectPeter
Feb 26th 2008, 03:02 PM
RbG and PP - do you agree on this?

God enables us to obey. That enabling is a gift.
God certainly equips us thereby enabling us to be obedient. No doubt about that. But I like what "IwalkwithHim" said using the analogy that RbG used... equipping us with what we need doesn't mean we are going to actually use it. That's where obedience comes in and it is for us to obey. Think of it this way... even Jesus Christ Himself learned obedience. If obedience is learned... it isn't given. It is like the 2 Peter passage I quote all of the time. We ADD to our faith virtue. God don't give it to us. We then add to our faith and virtue knowledge. God doesn't give it to us. We then add to that self-control, perserverance, godliness, etc. God equips us with everything that we need to live a holy life here in the nasty now and now. But we must use that equipment provided.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 26th 2008, 03:04 PM
If God has freely given it, then it is a gift.

My very breath is a gift from God


I have no problem with this at all...

Brother Mark
Feb 26th 2008, 03:07 PM
I think it very safe to say that God equips us to obey. But I still don't see where obedience is given by God. There are things given to us because of our obedience yes... but obedience itself as a given?

Well said. The equipping can be considered a gift. For he has given us everything concerning Godliness. But we must all be wary of falling short of the grace given to us!

2 Peter 1:2-4
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
NASB

He has given to us grace that WE may overcome. We cannot obey without his equipping but even with the equipping we can be disobedient.

Heb 12:15-17
15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
NASB

From my perspective, the equipping and enabling of me to be obedient is a work of grace, and therefor a gift. Yet, at the same time, I have my own responsibility and can fall short of the grace given to me.

Good post PP. I like your balance on this issue.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 26th 2008, 03:37 PM
If I give you a hammer and some nails and some lumber, and with what I give you – you build a shelf, isn’t that shelf a by-product of what I gave you….? So if I asked you to build that shelf with what I first gave you, and to the specs that I describe… wouldn’t it be the same as me giving you the shelf, yet you built it?

Forgive me for saying so but I have one isue with this analogy. Although you gave me all the materials to do this task, provide me with the means to do it, and request that I do, the choice is still mine as to whether I choose to do it or not.

It is true that chances are, if I love and respect you, chances are good that I will complete the task for you. But just being completely honest, if you gave me materials, instructions and humble request to build a Nuclear Class Submarine, ughhhhhhh........ I might have a problem trying to fulfill that request. Because it may go beyond my means to build.

I guess what I am trying to say that the level of obedience one has to God is measurable. Some of us have a much more complex ability to obey God without question while others (maybe someone new in Christ) may not be so quick to do everything the Word of God says. Obedience grows as faith grows. I just know that there is a fine line between obedience and free will......:hmm:


But the difference is that God works the heart, I can't.... So when He works the heart, it's a done deal... :) I'm only a messenger.... But His tool none-the-less.

Read this analogy and think of it not in a human request, but one from God.

See that He is the one who calls you, equips you, and uses you, and you become His tool and He not yours.

He makes you a new creation in Christ Jesus, so he does the work in you.... So in building the shelf, He is as holding your arm as you swing the hammer.... And if He called you to build the submarine, He would so guide you to build the submarine.... And if you had doubts or needs, you'd go to Him for further instruction, and submit to His holding the hammer once again

Jesus once stated to His disciples, oh you of little faith. Did He say this because they didn't have a lot of faith or that they were not accessing the fullness of their faith they have been given? I submit it is the latter than the former. So too with obedience. Being obedient doesn't save us but is necessary evidence in being saved.... Why, because God's change within us.

So I say that God works in us to be obedient to His ways, and it may take the form of asking for willpower, for strength, for wisdom and discernment, for self-examination, for any help....

So as God called you and I to faith, He also calls you and I to sanctification...

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them

Brother Mark
Feb 26th 2008, 03:47 PM
But the difference is that God works the heart, I can't.... So when He works the heart, it's a done deal...

God does work the heart. He changes the heart. Yet, man still has a role to play and for this reason, God warns us.

Heb 12:14-17
15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
NASB

We can fall short of the grace that he gives us. Let us be careful that we do not do so. 1 Cor 10 gives a great exposition on falling short of the grace that was given to Israel. Hebrews sums it up nicely.

Heb 3:12-19

12 Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end; 15 while it is said,

"Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me."

16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
NASB

Let us not provoke God by sinning against his provision. He provided and enabled and empowered but we can still harden our hearts after hearing the word.

IWalkWithHim
Feb 26th 2008, 04:02 PM
I also wanted to point out a few scriptures here:

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

When God spoke to Moses on the Mount, this is one of the statements that he made to him. It is clear that God left the decision to be obedient to Him, his choice. God gave him the promises to follow this obedience to Him but left that decision up to Moses. Moses made the decision to obey God of His own free will but through his obedience, God equiped him to do the task before him.

Lets look at another:

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

It is clear here also that God has given man a choice. The consequences of that choice (whether to obey or disobey) is outlined by God. At no point has God commanded anyone to be obedient. It is man's free will to do so.

Wanted to look at one more:

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

From a man's (follower's) perspective, it was his and the apostles choice to serve God over man. They came to the realization that it is more profitable to serve God but that was a revelation that came to them over the corse of their service to Christ. Obediance always has and always will be a choice that we make. Since God will NEVER intervene into man's free will, obedience cannot be a gift. It can become a trait of one's charactor to be obedient through evidence of the promises that God gives those of us that chooses to obey Him but we can choose at any time to stop if we wish. Most of us continue to obey because we don't like the consequences that follow disobedience. Much like that of a child as I'll say in closing. It doesn't matter how much you LOVE your children, it doesn't matter how supportive you are, attentive, dependable, responsible, or wise you may be, your child's decision to obey you will only be determined by his own course of failures and consequences that you or life offers him as a result of disobedience. The "gift", in my humble opinion, is the wisdom gained through diobedience that leads us to be obedient.:rolleyes: