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wpm
Feb 26th 2008, 03:49 PM
Merton said the following on a former thread. Not wanting to divert it too much, I will start a new thread.



Many from among the nations will enter mortally into the time period on the earth after Christ returns simply because they obey the messages of the three angels of Rev.14 spoken to them by the overcomers in this age before their (the overcomers) resurrection.

The mortal believers of the millenium will not be qualified to reign with Christ in His Throne because they shall never live in the conditions on the earth as Christ and His Bride do, but it is quite in order that some or many men and women shall enter into their bodily resurrection as God so wills during that time.


This idea of sinners/sin/death/corruption on the new earth is a major theological problem for Postmils/Amils with the Premil viewpoint. Postmils and Amils believe the new earth when Christ comes will be totally pristine. The earth the saints inhabit will have no consequence of the fall upon it. It will be purged with the literal consuming fire of God at the Lord's return (2 Peter 3:1-14). The earth will thus be restored to an incorruptible condition.

It is their view that the earth Christ reigns over will be perfected, and the saints that inherit it will be perfect. Those that inhabit it will therefore be the glorified saints alone. Postmils and Amils believe there has only ever been 2 peoples on this earth - saved and lost. The righteous are rescued at Christ's Coming (as Noah and His family were at the flood, and Lot and his daughters were in Sodom) and the lost are destroyed at His Coming (as were the wicked in Noah's day and in Sodom).

Paul outlines the terms, qualifications and restrictions involved in inheriting the new perfect environment: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50). This is the reason why glorification is needed. The whole context of 1 Corinthians 11 supports this contention. The first fact we see in this reading is: the new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. In doing so, he makes it crystal-clear that corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.

In the light of this, the questions I must ask are:

(1) How can the saints reproduce on the new earth (as Merton contends)? They will have to be perfect (being arrayed in new bodies) to even inherit it.
(2) How can sinful mortals even inherit the new earth in their corrupt state?
(3) On what grounds do they enter the millennial kingdom?
(4) Who are Gog and Magog in the Premil paradigm?

Paul

DurbanDude
Feb 26th 2008, 04:53 PM
My reply is not a standard pre-mil position , it is my own thoughts on the matter:

1) I believe in a post-trib pre-mil view , in other words the resurrection of the saints is the rapture and occurs after the tribulation period. All surviving saints that exist at the day of the Lord will be resurrected and will be immortal. The only mortal survivors are the sinners who have not repented in time , they have no choice when they see Jesus setting up His reign on earth , at this stage they will regret and recognise the truth , but it is too late. However Satan will be bound for 1000 years so there will be little sin on earth because of the reduced temptation for 1000 years.

2) Sinful mortals will not inherit the earth , they will be survivors , the resurrected believers will be the rulers and the inheritors.

3)The only grounds that they have is that they survived the tribulation, they have not inherited immortality at all.

4) Gog is the country to the far north of Israel (Russia)that attacks Israel with its Arab allies, leading up to the Day of the Lord and the Second Coming when Jesus comes to protect an ungodly Jerusalem as the Jews are repenting.

Gog and Magog represent the extreme ends of the earth where all the nations will gather against a Godly Jerusalem at the end of the millenium.

quiet dove
Feb 26th 2008, 06:11 PM
Question:

What would have happened if Israel had accepted and acknowledged Jesus as their coming promised Messiah?

Don't say something obvious or get into the Cross, we know that much. But hypothetically speaking, what would have happened if Israel had understood Jesus was their promised Messiah?

You may think this is changing the subject, but it is not.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,...
Col 1:16 ...All things were created through Him and for Him.

Mat 23:38 ...I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

What would have happened if they had been willing?

David Taylor
Feb 26th 2008, 06:24 PM
Question:

What would have happened if Israel had accepted and acknowledged Jesus as their coming promised Messiah?

Don't say something obvious or get into the Cross, we know that much. But hypothetically speaking, what would have happened if Israel had understood Jesus was their promised Messiah?



Wouldn't the answer to that question be the same answer as asking, "What would happen if Egypt or China or Saudi Arabia acknowleges Jesus as their coming promised Messiah?

Answer (in all cases)....more lost folks become saved by the blood of the Lamb.

Are saved Israelis worth more to God than saved Egyptians, saved Chinamen, or saved Saudis?

Clifton
Feb 26th 2008, 07:00 PM
Merton said the following on a former thread. Not wanting to divert it too much, I will start a new thread.



This idea of sinners/sin/death/corruption on the new earth is a major theological problem for Postmils/Amils with the Premil viewpoint. Postmils and Amils believe the new earth when Christ comes will be totally pristine. The earth the saints inhabit will have no consequence of the fall upon it. It will be purged with the literal consuming fire of God at the Lord's return (2 Peter 3:1-14). The earth will thus be restored to an incorruptible condition.

It is their view that the earth Christ reigns over will be perfected, and the saints that inherit it will be perfect. Those that inhabit it will therefore be the glorified saints alone. Postmils and Amils believe there has only ever been 2 peoples on this earth - saved and lost. The righteous are rescued at Christ's Coming (as Noah and His family were at the flood, and Lot and his daughters were in Sodom) and the lost are destroyed at His Coming (as were the wicked in Noah's day and in Sodom).

Paul outlines the terms, qualifications and restrictions involved in inheriting the new perfect environment: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50). This is the reason why glorification is needed. The whole context of 1 Corinthians 11 supports this contention. The first fact we see in this reading is: the new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. In doing so, he makes it crystal-clear that corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.

In the light of this, the questions I must ask are:

(1) How can the saints reproduce on the new earth (as Merton contends)? They will have to be perfect (being arrayed in new bodies) to even inherit it.
(2) How can sinful mortals even inherit the new earth in their corrupt state?
(3) On what grounds do they enter the millennial kingdom?
(4) Who are Gog and Magog in the Premil paradigm?

Paul

I understand that the "renovated" Earth will be a "renewed" Earth - that could fairly be term as a 'new Earth', but it is still the same Earth we are on right now (just purged, as was done with water in the days of Noah). After this renovation (you referenced 2 Peter 3:1-14) of the Earth, it is restored like it was in the beginning of time (AFTER the fall of Adam and Eve). People will live long lives like they did in the earlier times, and other goodies, like not having to worry about wild beasts. There will be sinners during this period (cp. Isaiah 65:20 for example, and Revelation 22:15 {Note: the last 3 chapters of Revelation are not in proper order}), but they will not have the impact to spoil the earth like they do now, and they have some restriction(s), and I think that is that they cannot enter the city.

After this period and others, this same Earth will be "rolled up" like a scroll, and then they will be a BRAND NEW (and different Earth). It will have to be much BIGGER to withstand more and things like The NEW Jerusalem which, with the size, diametrics (or "blueprints") of it, that this current Earth could not withhold (this planet is too small for it). See Revelation 21:15-17f.

You might learn more about this current Earth, it's renewal, and the "brand new and different Earth" from a web page that the VW (Voice in the Wilderness) Bible translator has posted up at their site, and test the weight of what they say and the scripture references they provide with the scriptures of your Bible(s). The web page is located at:

http://www.a-voice.org/main/terafirm.htm

and is titled "Terra Firma? (Eighth Day).

So, perhaps we may have a problem of "combining" the renovated Earth with the brand new Earth? It's a real exegetical study alright.;)

quiet dove
Feb 26th 2008, 07:44 PM
Wouldn't the answer to that question be the same answer as asking, "What would happen if Egypt or China or Saudi Arabia acknowleges Jesus as their coming promised Messiah?
No, I do not agree that it would have been the same. No one but Israel had a Messiah promised nor was looking for that promised Messiah.



Answer (in all cases)....more lost folks become saved by the blood of the Lamb.
I agree, there would be less folks in right standing with God, however, even before the cross, men were found righteous, such as Abraham. And God accepted Gentiles also, look at Rahab. So right standing with God was possible prior to the Cross. And I agree with you, all the more possible through Christ, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to strengthen and guide all who are in Christ. We are truly blessed.



Are saved Israelis worth more to God than saved Egyptians, saved Chinamen, or saved Saudis?It has nothing to do with any ethnic group being more important. It has to do with the way God chose to deal with man kind. And God chose the Hebrews and made them the Israel nation. And the Bible tells us He did not choose them because they were bigger or better.

The prophesies were given to Israel and within the prophesies given we learn the Gentiles will be included, the promised Messiah's sacrifice will cover all men who accept and believe.

But that is not my question.
What would Jesus have done if Israel had acknowledged Him as the promised One, and repented of their sins against God the Father?

Mograce2U
Feb 26th 2008, 08:30 PM
No, I do not agree that it would have been the same. No one but Israel had a Messiah promised nor was looking for that promised Messiah.And now the mark that is upon them is that they reject the Messiah that was sent to them and look for another.


I agree, there would be less folks in right standing with God, however, even before the cross, men were found righteous, such as Abraham. And God accepted Gentiles also, look at Rahab. So right standing with God was possible prior to the Cross. And I agree with you, all the more possible through Christ, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to strengthen and guide all who are in Christ. We are truly blessed.Their standing by faith in the hope that was still to come (OT) is now not seen as "faith", when that Hope is rejected rather than believed.


It has nothing to do with any ethnic group being more important. It has to do with the way God chose to deal with man kind. And God chose the Hebrews and made them the Israel nation. And the Bible tells us He did not choose them because they were bigger or better.True, but they were chosen to bring God's glory into the earth, which they did when Christ came thru them. They were chosen for no other reason.


The prophesies were given to Israel and within the prophesies given we learn the Gentiles will be included, the promised Messiah's sacrifice will cover all men who accept and believe. And none who do not.


But that is not my question. What would Jesus have done if Israel had acknowledged Him as the promised One, and repented of their sins against God the Father?The remnant of Israel DID do exactly that and were saved - they were the firstfruits who followed Christ. The children who occupy the land today are not their children. Rather other children have been given who were not of the 12 tribes - just as prophecy predicted. And we who believe be them! The true Israel of God, comprised of first the Jew and then the Gentile - this was the mystery of God which they rejected and continue to not believe. Israel today sees themselves as the redeemer of the world - this is blasphemy now, since the only faithful Son Israel ever brought forth has come - and they deny this is true.

Their hope is not our Hope, and prophecy promised them no Other.

David Taylor
Feb 26th 2008, 08:31 PM
No, I do not agree that it would have been the same. No one but Israel had a Messiah promised nor was looking for that promised Messiah.


But the Gentiles were promised the same Messiah also. Jesus is the Messiah for all humankind; not just one sub-ethnic group.

Numbers 14:21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

Psalms 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."

Isaiah 9:2 "The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined."



But that is not my question.
What would Jesus have done if Israel had acknowledged Him as the promised One, and repented of their sins against God the Father?


Accepted those Israelites in the same manner as he accepted Peter and Bartholemew and Lazarus and Zaccaeus, and Nicodemus, and in the same manner as the Jews who did come to Him.

It would have given Him even more laborers to enter into the fields ripe for harvest, right?

wpm
Feb 26th 2008, 09:01 PM
No, I do not agree that it would have been the same. No one but Israel had a Messiah promised nor was looking for that promised Messiah.

I agree, there would be less folks in right standing with God, however, even before the cross, men were found righteous, such as Abraham. And God accepted Gentiles also, look at Rahab. So right standing with God was possible prior to the Cross. And I agree with you, all the more possible through Christ, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to strengthen and guide all who are in Christ. We are truly blessed.

It has nothing to do with any ethnic group being more important. It has to do with the way God chose to deal with man kind. And God chose the Hebrews and made them the Israel nation. And the Bible tells us He did not choose them because they were bigger or better.

The prophesies were given to Israel and within the prophesies given we learn the Gentiles will be included, the promised Messiah's sacrifice will cover all men who accept and believe.

But that is not my question.
What would Jesus have done if Israel had acknowledged Him as the promised One, and repented of their sins against God the Father?




According to Dispensationalism/Pretrib, if Israel would have accepted Jesus as their King then Christ would immediately have been crowned king of the nation. As a result, Calvary would never have happened (or have been needed). In the Dispensationalism/Pretrib theory, Calvary was God's plan B. This notion is of course absurd. There had to be a Calvary for men to be saved. This thinking alone is sufficient grounds to reject Dispensationalism (although there are numerous other elementary biblical reasons to dismiss it). It makes God's expressed intent from all eternity a lie.

Revelation 13:8 tells us that Christ was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” He was predestined to come into this world as a substitutionary sacrifice, without which no man could be saved. 1 Peter 1:19 confirms that Christ was “a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.” There was a predetermined blueprint that Christ had to fulfil – He did perfectly.

2,000 years ago Christ entered into this sin-cursed world with the purpose of becoming the one final sacrifice for sin, taking upon Himself the penalty that belonged to man, and releasing Him from his bondage. Without this all men would have been doomed.[/font]

The old covenant never saved anyone or took away a single sin. It couldn't perfect one to lone sinner. It also had a continual remembrance of sin. If Dispensationalism had its way the old covenant would be eternally active. In fact, another issue Amils oppose Dispensationalism and its fellow Premil beliefs is that it resurrects the unsatisfactory abolished animal sacrifices. Amil rejects such a notion - believing it to be in violation of the New Testament teaching and the new covenant reality.

What is more, God wasn't satisfied with it. He had already ordained a better sacrifice.

Firstly, Heb 10:4 explains, "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Here we see the inferiority of the old covenant described. It couldn’t remove sin. It couldn’t remove guilt. It was deficient.

But Hebrews 9:26 tells us, “now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

The OT animal sacrifices could only cover sin, they couldn’t remove it. At the cross Jesus took our sins in full and nailed them to the tree.

Secondly, Heb 10:3 of our reading tells us that:in the old covenant “sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.”

Heb 10:17 confirms, what we learnt a few weeks ago, under the new covenant God promises, “their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

Every yr the people of God in the OT were reminded of their sins on the day of atonement. However, this all-knowing God today forgets the repented sins of His people.

Thirdly, Heb 10:1 of our chapter confirms: the old covenant “can never with those sacrifices … make the comers thereunto perfect.” The fact is, “the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did” (Hebrews 7:19).

That “better hope” was Christ and the transaction He paid for sin at the cross. It was that final sacrifice for sin that perfects the redeemed. Why? Christ has satisfied every righteous demand of a holy God. He took upon Himself our sin and in turn took the penalty that was due to us. There is therefore no condemnation for them that are in Christ. Heb 10:14 of this narrative confirms: “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

Paul

John146
Feb 26th 2008, 09:10 PM
My reply is not a standard pre-mil position , it is my own thoughts on the matter:

2) Sinful mortals will not inherit the earth , they will be survivors , the resurrected believers will be the rulers and the inheritors.

Does Scripture speak of any mortal unbelieving survivors at the second coming of Christ? Not that I can see.

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. - 2 Thess 1:7-10

Are not all "sinful mortals" included among "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. - 1 Thess 5:1-4

Does this passage indicate at all that any sinful mortals will survive this sudden destruction in which there is no escape?

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

It will be like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. How many mortal sinful unbelievers survived those days?

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? - 2 Peter 3:5-7,10-12

Like the previous passage, this passage also relates the coming of the Lord to the days of Noah. Again, how many sinful mortals survived then? Even the heavens and the earth won't survive the coming of the Lord, so how can any sinful mortals survive it?

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19:17-21

Notice, "the flesh of all men" will be consumed on that day. The remnant will be slain. Again, how does any unbeliever survive this?

Eric

Merton
Feb 26th 2008, 09:28 PM
Merton said the following on a former thread. Not wanting to divert it too much, I will start a new thread.


Many from among the nations will enter mortally into the time period on the earth after Christ returns simply because they obey the messages of the three angels of Rev.14 spoken to them by the overcomers in this age before their (the overcomers) resurrection.

The mortal believers of the millenium will not be qualified to reign with Christ in His Throne because they shall never live in the conditions on the earth as Christ and His Bride do, but it is quite in order that some or many men and women shall enter into their bodily resurrection as God so wills during that time

This idea of sinners/sin/death/corruption on the new earth is a major theological problem for Postmils/Amils with the Premil viewpoint. Postmils and Amils believe the new earth when Christ comes will be totally pristine. The earth the saints inhabit will have no consequence of the fall upon it. It will be purged with the literal consuming fire of God at the Lord's return (2 Peter 3:1-14). The earth will thus be restored to an incorruptible condition.

It is their view that the earth Christ reigns over will be perfected, and the saints that inherit it will be perfect. Those that inhabit it will therefore be the glorified saints alone. Postmils and Amils believe there has only ever been 2 peoples on this earth - saved and lost. The righteous are rescued at Christ's Coming (as Noah and His family were at the flood, and Lot and his daughters were in Sodom) and the lost are destroyed at His Coming (as were the wicked in Noah's day and in Sodom).

Paul outlines the terms, qualifications and restrictions involved in inheriting the new perfect environment: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50). This is the reason why glorification is needed. The whole context of 1 Corinthians 11 supports this contention. The first fact we see in this reading is: the new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. In doing so, he makes it crystal-clear that corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.

In the light of this, the questions I must ask are:

(1) How can the saints reproduce on the new earth (as Merton contends)? They will have to be perfect (being arrayed in new bodies) to even inherit it.
(2) How can sinful mortals even inherit the new earth in their corrupt state?
(3) On what grounds do they enter the millennial kingdom?
(4) Who are Gog and Magog in the Premil paradigm?

Paul




Paul,

Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, andif I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed tobe rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.


The saints are promised to inherit a Kingdom which reigns over the earth in its present state in order that mortal mankind should have rest fron the present terrors now ravaging it.


Act 3:21 whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age past.


This must occur before the burning up of the present earth although the removal of all that is temporal will complete it.

It is IN the last days that the mountain of the Lords House will be elevated above all other kingdoms of the earth with two present kingdoms of Esau (Ex 35) and Babylon (Isaiah 14) completely destroyed.

Isa 2:2 And it shall be in the last days, the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it.

Men now learn war, but in that age men will learn war no longer--

Isa 2:4 And He shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, nor shall they learn war any more.


It would not be the case that God would judge many nations and rebuke many peoples in the eternal state when God is ALL in ALL., for the picture given in scripture of the coming millennium is that a number of kings of the earth will happily receive Christ at His coming.

Psa 72:2 Your people He shall judge in righteousness, and Your poor in justice.
Psa 72:3 The mountains will lift up peace to the people, and the little hills through righteousness.
Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people; and He shall save the sons of the needy; and He shall crush the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear You with the sun, and before the moon in all generations.
Psa 72:6 He shall descend like rain on the mown grass, like showers that water the earth.
Psa 72:7 In His days the righteous shall flourish, and plenty of peace, till the moon is not.
Psa 72:8 He shall also rule from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 Those dwelling in the desert will bow before Him, and His enemies will lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents; the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.

How many nations and kings of nations will there be in the eternal state?

How many generations?

Is there a sea in the earth after the last judgment? No.

Is this psalm a picture of our present time? No.

Gotta go for now.

Merton.

wpm
Feb 26th 2008, 09:45 PM
I understand that the "renovated" Earth will be a "renewed" Earth - that could fairly be term as a 'new Earth', but it is still the same Earth we are on right now (just purged, as was done with water in the days of Noah). After this renovation (you referenced 2 Peter 3:1-14) of the Earth, it is restored like it was in the beginning of time (AFTER the fall of Adam and Eve). People will live long lives like they did in the earlier times, and other goodies, like not having to worry about wild beasts. There will be sinners during this period (cp. Isaiah 65:20 for example, and Revelation 22:15 {Note: the last 3 chapters of Revelation are not in proper order}), but they will not have the impact to spoil the earth like they do now, and they have some restriction(s), and I think that is that they cannot enter the city.

After this period and others, this same Earth will be "rolled up" like a scroll, and then they will be a BRAND NEW (and different Earth). It will have to be much BIGGER to withstand more and things like The NEW Jerusalem which, with the size, diametrics (or "blueprints") of it, that this current Earth could not withhold (this planet is too small for it). See Revelation 21:15-17f.

You might learn more about this current Earth, it's renewal, and the "brand new and different Earth" from a web page that the VW (Voice in the Wilderness) Bible translator has posted up at their site, and test the weight of what they say and the scripture references they provide with the scriptures of your Bible(s). The web page is located at:

http://www.a-voice.org/main/terafirm.htm

and is titled "Terra Firma? (Eighth Day).

So, perhaps we may have a problem of "combining" the renovated Earth with the brand new Earth? It's a real exegetical study alright.;)

Firstly, I do not have time (or the desire) to go to another website (especially when I cannot question their theories). That is why I asked here for thoughts.

To be honest your new earth seems no different from the one we are on now. It is ravaged by sin, wickedness, war, death, tears and sorrow. It is just a re-run of the intra-Advent period. If what you are saying was right you would bring the dead saints that have been promoted to heaven and are experiencing the rest and peace of God back to an earth full of hate and horror, sin and death, bitterness and widespread strife. You would have the dead in Christ that have eternally been delivered from the evil of this sin-cursed world with its conflict, unrighteousness and wars right back into the middle of the same. You would have perfect glorified saints interacting with sinful mortal creatures. This doesn't add up.

Your new earth is an imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between this “present time” or age and the eternal “age to come.” The age you describe is half-delivered and half-bound. It is semi-glorious and semi-corrupt. This half-liberated new earth is indeed an undesirable mongrel earth filled equally with righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and sinlessness, glorified saints and mortal rebels, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.

What Postmils and Amils believe is that the new earth that is introduced at Christ's Coming is perfect. Christ does a complete and successful job. He removes the curse and corruption. The fact is, when man is glorified, all of creation will be glorified with him. It will not be a semi-glorified creation and a semi-cursed creation, any more than it was at the start. To limit the glorification that creation experiences at Christ’s Coming is to essentially undermine it. Earth cannot partially be glorified. It either experiences it fully or else it doesn’t.

Peter presents the great hope of the righteous, saying, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13).

You bring up Noah's day, but all the wicked were destroyed then. In your paradigm the wicked populate the new earth in their countless millions (as the sand of the sea).

Paul

John146
Feb 26th 2008, 09:46 PM
But that is not my question.
What would Jesus have done if Israel had acknowledged Him as the promised One, and repented of their sins against God the Father?


I agree with Paul's (wpm's) answer. He would have done the same as what He did. He was slain before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). He was going to sacrifice Himself for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) no matter what because He was foreordained to do so. He had to do this because without His shed blood there would be no forgiveness of sins.

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. - Heb 9:22

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. - Heb 10:4

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: - Col 1:12-14

Now, how do you answer the question? What do you think He would have done?

wpm
Feb 26th 2008, 10:01 PM
Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, andif I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed tobe rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

The saints are promised to inherit a Kingdom which reigns over the earth in its present state in order that mortal mankind should have rest fron the present terrors now ravaging it.


Jer 33 and your commentary do not match up. I'm sorry but you have forced things into it that are not in the text. You then transpire to build your post upon (what I believe is) this mistaken hypothesis.



Act 3:21 whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age past.

This must occur before the burning up of the present earth although the removal of all that is temporal will complete it.

It is IN the last days that the mountain of the Lords House will be elevated above all other kingdoms of the earth with two present kingdoms of Esau (Ex 35) and Babylon (Isaiah 14) completely destroyed.


The fiery conflagration that Peter describes in 2 Peter 3 removes all corruption and introduces the perfect eternal state. This is infact part of "the restoration of all things" that you refer to. That passage actually challneges your hypothesis rather than reinforcing it. It seems like from what you bare describing, your new earth is 'the restoration of some things'. I feel the Coming of Christ is climactic. It is the end of this current sin-cursed arrangement and the introduction of a new pristine paradise of God. Sin and sinners cannot access. Corruption is banished. All things are indeed restored on the new earth Christ brings in through fire.



Isa 2:2 And it shall be in the last days, the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it.

Men now learn war, but in that age men will learn war no longer--

Isa 2:4 And He shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, nor shall they learn war any more.


It would not be the case that God would judge many nations and rebuke many peoples in the eternal state when God is ALL in ALL., for the picture given in scripture of the coming millennium is that a number of kings of the earth will happily receive Christ at His coming.


We are actually in the last days. It began with the ministry of Christ and ends at His all-consummating Coming. Isaiah 2 (like Micah 4) is specifically speaking of the kingdom of God (“the mountain of the Lord's house”), and the peaceful conditions that exist within that righteous domain. This spiritual kingdom contains the elect of God alone and is free of physical war and physical destruction that exists in the world. Ephesians 6:12 explains, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:12 shows us that the Christian’s battle is not against "flesh and blood" (or in the natural physical domain) but "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (or in the invisible spiritual domain).

2 Corinthians 10:3-4 explains, “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.”

I need to clarify a few things:

Q. 1. When did or will the last days commence?
Q. 2. When did or will the last days terminate?
Q. 3. When is the "last day" of the "last days"?
Q. 4. What occurs on "last day" of the "last days"?
Q. 5. When are the New Heavens and the New Earth ushered in, at the beginning or end of the millennium?



Psa 72:2 Your people He shall judge in righteousness, and Your poor in justice.
Psa 72:3 The mountains will lift up peace to the people, and the little hills through righteousness.
Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people; and He shall save the sons of the needy; and He shall crush the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear You with the sun, and before the moon in all generations.
Psa 72:6 He shall descend like rain on the mown grass, like showers that water the earth.
Psa 72:7 In His days the righteous shall flourish, and plenty of peace, till the moon is not.
Psa 72:8 He shall also rule from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 Those dwelling in the desert will bow before Him, and His enemies will lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents; the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.

How many nations and kings of nations will there be in the eternal state?

How many generations?

Is there a sea in the earth after the last judgment? No.

Is this psalm a picture of our present time? No.

Gotta go for now.



Is this not what the intro of the kingdom of God caused as the Gospel went out through the nations?

Paul

Clifton
Feb 26th 2008, 11:57 PM
Firstly, I do not have time (or the desire) to go to another website (especially when I cannot question their theories). That is why I asked here for thoughts.
It was for the purpose of helping you distinguish the difference between the renovation of the CURRENT Earth and the so-called Millennium and The Brand New Heavens and Earth which are eternal. You appear to have them "combined" into one thing/age - I believe I pointed that out in a nice way, because I saw you had a great deal tangled up, so I noted to you about differentiating between the different 'new' heavens and earth for a starting point to help you get those things untangled and properly discerned, on your own.


To be honest your new earth seems no different from the one we are on now. It is ravaged by sin, wickedness, war, death, tears and sorrow.
Not "my" new Earth (any of them), or the renovation of this Earth, but The Bible's renovated / renewed Earth and The New Earth and Heavens to come in the end for the eternal state. And where, pray tell, do you get this idea of "wickedness, war, death, tears and sorrow" for the Chilioi Period (often referred to as "the Millennium" by the mainstream) from where? I never stated those things, neither does Isaiah that I know of.


It is just a re-run of the intra-Advent period. If what you are saying was right you would bring the dead saints that have been promoted to heaven and are experiencing the rest and peace of God back to an earth full of hate and horror, sin and death, bitterness and widespread strife. You would have the dead in Christ that have eternally been delivered from the evil of this sin-cursed world with its conflict, unrighteousness and wars right back into the middle of the same. You would have perfect glorified saints interacting with sinful mortal creatures. This doesn't add up.
When you get things that so very tangled up and intertwined, no it would not add up. What is happening here is lack of discernment and knowledge of The Hebrew Prophets on your part. You are confusing the renovated Earth and the Chilioi Period with the New (and I mean Brand New, The Greek νεος <3501> for new - NOT καινος <2537> for new);

I recognize that these words are confused, and people do not realize there is more than one round of a 'new heavens and earth'. If one properly divides and proportion the scriptures, and not mix up things are mold them together, things do add up.


Your new earth is an imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between this “present time” or age and the eternal “age to come.” The age you describe is half-delivered and half-bound. It is semi-glorious and semi-corrupt. This half-liberated new earth is indeed an undesirable mongrel earth filled equally with righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and sinlessness, glorified saints and mortal rebels, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.
You have added a great deal of statements that I never said. That really tells me something. If the renovation of the Earth happens after you die, do you assume you will be here on the renovated Earth, or in Heaven?


What Postmils and Amils believe is that the new earth that is introduced at Christ's Coming is perfect.
What Postmil, Amils, nuncmillennialists believe was NOT AT ALL what I was addressing. I believe the so-called millennial period is yet to occur. I was addressing the error that you had things put together that are not together and of the same.


Christ does a complete and successful job. He removes the curse and corruption. The fact is, when man is glorified, all of creation will be glorified with him. It will not be a semi-glorified creation and a semi-cursed creation, any more than it was at the start. To limit the glorification that creation experiences at Christ’s Coming is to essentially undermine it. Earth cannot partially be glorified. It either experiences it fully or else it doesn’t.You certainly like putting a great of words into people's mouths. I was expressing to you that what you call "new" (as in a different ball) earth is NOT the same as the New Earth and Heavens in their Eternal State.


Peter presents the great hope of the righteous, saying, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13).This is AFTER the so-called "Millennium."


You bring up Noah's day, but all the wicked were destroyed then. In your paradigm the wicked populate the new earth in their countless millions (as the sand of the sea). Nope, if you would not put words into people's mouths they never said (nor even inferred), that would avoid such erroneous conclusions and save you typing time. I merely provided Noah's Day as an example in regards to the renovation of this CURRENT Earth. For his time, there came a new heavens and earth.
“15 And all of you shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay you, and call his servants by another name: 16 That he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. 17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be all of you glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” (Isaiah 65:15-20)

Despite the disorder of the last 3 Chapters of Revelation, 22:15 is still there in your Bible. And Isaiah 65 is there as well.

Ya see, you make the mistake of assuming just because sinners will be present in the so-called Millennium, that "this and that" (wars, etc.) will occur or will be. True, it will not be ALL peaches and cream, but it be MUCH Better. If you would have read attentively Isaiah and the other Hebrew Prophet books, you would see that you are just adding to it things not present during that age and reworking passages.

Bottom Line: There will be a new Heavens and Earth (this is what is termed as RENEWAL), then in the beginning of the End, those will be rolled up and there will There will be a new Heavens and Earth in the Eternal State.

That's all for you Paul. I recommend for anyone to read the Bible on a chapter by chapter basis to maintain context (that's what I did), especially before thinking about any "eschatology issues."

As for OTHER readers whom have the time (or willing to bookmark a web page) and are curious as to the issue about "sinners" being present in the so-called Millennium, and its new Heavens and Earth, there is a good article from BSW (Biblical Studies on the Web) Research Center I thought explained things in good detail at:

Isaiah 65:20 Centenarians or Millenarians? (http://www.bsw.org/project/biblica/bibl86/Ani01.html)

Just note that there is a bottom frame for the footnotes. However, when you click on a footnote marker in the main frame, it does not work, so if you are interested in what is in a footnote, just scroll the bottom frame.

Other sites of info may be found by doing a Google Search for:
"Isaiah 65:20" (include the quotes).;)

wpm
Feb 27th 2008, 12:06 AM
It was for the purpose of helping you distinguish the difference between the renovation of the CURRENT Earth and the so-called Millennium and The Brand New Heavens and Earth which are eternal. You appear to have them "combined" into one thing/age - I believe I pointed that out in a nice way, because I saw you had a great deal tangled up, so I noted to you about differentiating between the different 'new' heavens and earth for a starting point to help you get those things untangled and properly discerned, on your own.


Not "my" new Earth (any of them), or the renovation of this Earth, but The Bible's renovated / renewed Earth and The New Earth and Heavens to come in the end for the eternal state. And where, pray tell, do you get this idea of "wickedness, war, death, tears and sorrow" for the Chilioi Period (often referred to as "the Millennium" by the mainstream) from where? I never stated those things, neither does Isaiah that I know of.
When you get things that so very tangled up and intertwined, no it would not add up. What is happening here is lack of discernment and knowledge of The Hebrew Prophets on your part. You are confusing the renovated Earth and the Chilioi Period with the New (and I mean Brand New, The Greek νεος <3501> for new - NOT καινος <2537> for new);I recognize that these words are confused, and people do not realize there is more than one round of a 'new heavens and earth'. If one properly divides and proportion the scriptures, and not mix up things are mold them together, things do add up.


You have added a great deal of statements that I never said. That really tells me something. If the renovation of the Earth happens after you die, do you assume you will be here on the renovated Earth, or in Heaven?

What Postmil, Amils, nuncmillennialists believe was NOT AT ALL what I was addressing. I believe the so-called millennial period is yet to occur. I was addressing the error that you had things put together that are not together and of the same.

You certainly like putting a great of words into people's mouths. I was expressing to you that what you call "new" (as in a different ball) earth is NOT the same as the New Earth and Heavens in their Eternal State.

This is AFTER the so-called "Millennium."

Nope, if you would not put words into people's mouths they never said (nor even inferred), that would avoid such erroneous conclusions and save you typing time. I merely provided Noah's Day as an example in regards to the renovation of this CURRENT Earth. For his time, there came a new heavens and earth.
“15 And all of you shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay you, and call his servants by another name: 16 That he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. 17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be all of you glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” (Isaiah 65:15-20)

Despite the disorder of the last 3 Chapters of Revelation, 22:15 is still there in your Bible. And Isaiah 65 is there as well.

Ya see, you make the mistake of assuming just because sinners will be present in the so-called Millennium, that "this and that" (wars, etc.) will occur or will be. True, it will not be ALL peaches and cream, but it be MUCH Better. If you would have read attentively Isaiah and the other Hebrew Prophet books, you would see that you are just adding to it things not present during that age and reworking passages.

Bottom Line: There will be a new Heavens and Earth (this is what is termed as RENEWAL), then in the beginning of the End, those will be rolled up and there will There will be a new Heavens and Earth in the Eternal State.

That's all for you Paul. I recommend for anyone to read the Bible on a chapter by chapter basis to maintain context (that's what I did), especially before thinking about any "eschatology issues."

As for OTHER readers whom have the time (or willing to bookmark a web page) and are curious as to the issue about "sinners" being present in the so-called Millennium, and its new Heavens and Earth, there is a good article from BSW (Biblical Studies on the Web) Research Center I thought explained things in good detail at:

Isaiah 65:20 Centenarians or Millenarians? (http://www.bsw.org/project/biblica/bibl86/Ani01.html)

Just note that there is a bottom frame for the footnotes. However, when you click on a footnote marker in the main frame, it does not work, so if you are interested in what is in a footnote, just scroll the bottom frame.

Other sites of info may be found by doing a Google Search for:
"Isaiah 65:20" (include the quotes).;)


I wasn't in any way trying to misrepresent your position. It would therefore be good for me to clarify

Do you believe there are 2 new heavens and 2 new earth?

Also, you seem to be denying that your millennial earth is blighted with the curse. I must therefore ask:

(1) Do you believe there will be sinners on the new earth?
(2) Do you believe there will be sickness on the new earth?
(3) Do you believe there will be wickedness on the new earth?
(4) Do you believe there will be war on the new earth?
(5) Do you believe there will be rebellion on the new earth?
(6) Do you believe there will be death on the new earth?
(7) Do you believe there will be corruption on the new earth?
(8) Do you believe there will be decay on the new earth?

Paul

Clifton
Feb 27th 2008, 12:31 AM
Let me clarify Do you believe there are 2 new heavens and 2 new earth?

No, not "are", but throughout history there is more than one. I began to learn Hebrew about 27 years ago and later the Greek. You got the understand the terminologies to get a better grasp of them.

You are either blessed with the ability of fast reading or flew over my post.


Also, you seem to be denying that your millennial earth is blighted with the curse. I must therefore ask:

With what curse? Is not Satan to be bound for 1000 years (or an extended period of time) for the so-called Millennium, then afterwards being thrown into the lake of fire? I call it the CHILIOI PERIOD (named after the Greek), but I do not ascribed to the "literal 1000 years" belief - HOWEVER, if one wants to believe that, they have a right to do so, because the way my Greek Dictionary expresses it, either is possible, "since so much of Revelation is symbolic".



(1) Do you believe there will be sinners on the new earth?
(2) Do you believe there will be sickness on the new earth?
(3) Do you believe there will be wickedness on the new earth?
(4) Do you believe there will be war on the new earth?
(5) Do you believe there will be rebellion on the new earth?
(6) Do you believe there will be death on the new earth?
(7) Do you believe there will be corruption on the new earth?
(8) Do you believe there will be decay on the new earth?


On which "New" Earth do you refer to? For the Eternal One, none of the above. For the Chilioi Period, sinners will be there. Now there, "death" is more like a transformation process. It just will not be nearly as bad as it is now, and people will live their full lives out like they did in the early ages...

“They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” (Isaiah 65:22 WEB)

Merton
Feb 27th 2008, 01:15 AM
Quote:
Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, andif I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed tobe rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

The saints are promised to inherit a Kingdom which reigns over the earth in its present state in order that mortal mankind should have rest fron the present terrors now ravaging it.

Jer 33 and your commentary do not match up. I'm sorry but you have forced things into it that are not in the text. You then transpire to build your post upon (what I believe is) this mistaken hypothesis.

You have no explanation for Jer 33:26.



Quote:
Act 3:21 whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age past.

This must occur before the burning up of the present earth although the removal of all that is temporal will complete it.

It is IN the last days that the mountain of the Lords House will be elevated above all other kingdoms of the earth with two present kingdoms of Esau (Ex 35) and Babylon (Isaiah 14) completely destroyed.

The fiery conflagration that Peter describes in 2 Peter 3 removes all corruption and introduces the perfect eternal state. This is infact part of "the restoration of all things" that you refer to. That passage actually challneges your hypothesis rather than reinforcing it. It seems like from what you bare describing, your new earth is 'the restoration of some things'. I feel the Coming of Christ is climactic. It is the end of this current sin-cursed arrangement and the introduction of a new pristine paradise of God. Sin and sinners cannot access. Corruption is banished. All things are indeed restored on the new earth Christ brings in through fire.


The new earth of Rev.21:1 (not verse 2) and spoken of in 2 Peter ch 3 follows the last judgment of the last day of the last days, whereas Isaiah ch 2 is speaking of an event yet to come IN the last days.

Your difficulty will be in proving that the eternal state is a restoration of something existing in the past.

Actually the word is reconstitution and if we look at Gods instructions to the first Adam to restore the earth, well he never did it, but the second Adam who is Christ will do so with His Bride.

The world was made perfect to be inhabited but outside of the garden of Eden it was untamed country suitable for animals and not for humans. (maybe few know that animals reflect actions of the carnal heart of man and sea creatures depict the spiritual secrets of mans religions)

You are mistaken about the New Jerusalem coming down on a new earth in Rev.ch 21. It does say when the New Jerusalem comes down that God will dwell with mankind, which would not be the case if the only mankind was the New Jerusalem saints themselves.

Neither would there be the wicked outside of it, if they were burnt up, for they are only in prison awaiting the last judgment when the New Jerusalem comes down..--

Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones thatare on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Neither would there be any nations to receive the river of life flowing from the Throne of God of the New Jerusalem if it was the time of the eternal state. (Rev.22:1-2)

Peter only deals with warning mankind of the last judgment as all prophets did in the past, but the believer since Pentecost is given instruction on inheriting the Kingdom of God at the first resurrection at the appearing of Christ which as I have pointed out was not given to many of the OT believers most of whom did not walk with God in all Holiness but will not be destroyed at the last judgment either. Ezekiel mentions a time before and after inheritance.

Paul gave the strictness required of them who would inherit the Kingdom of God at the first resurrection. I repeat it again--

Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss because of Christ.
Phi 3:8 But, no, rather I also count all things to be loss because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them to be trash, that I might gain Christ
Phi 3:9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness of Law, but through the faith of Christ, having the righteousness of God on faith,
Phi 3:10 to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, having been conformed to His death,
Phi 3:11 if somehow I may attain to a resurrection out of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:13 Brothers, I do not count myself to have laid hold, but one thing I do, forgetting the things behind, and stretching forward to those things before,
Phi 3:14 I press on after a mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
This was further to the message given to OT believers by the Prophets and only began to be preached from Jesus onward for it required the receiving of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant for believers to be engaged in it, though a few men compared to the number of the OT believers did ,because God made Himself available to them for the purpose, men like David, as an example of something of Jesus and other men to come. Even Paul mentioned that he was one born out of due time (premature). It begs the question, when is the due time?

However please note that while David did suffer for some time at the hands of fleshy minded religious men of Gods own houshold, that David did come to the time of his reigning over the Kingdom which means the same as inheriting the Kingdom promised to overcomers of the NT era after their resurrection but initially typing the life of Christ Himself, and further to that his son Solomon began to reign in his stead, that is on his fathers throne when he also inherited the Kingdom and immediately began to destroy the enemies of God and of David, which does type the return of Christ and the completion of the Temple and the filling of Gods house with Gods Glory as well as the completion of Solomons house and Throne as all part of Jerusalem.

You really have to consider these things more carefully not as a bible student but as a disciple of Christ learning from Him.

You will find much to consider in 2 Chron ch 1 to 8.








continued--

Merton
Feb 27th 2008, 01:16 AM
Quote:
Isa 2:2 And it shall be in the last days, the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it.

Men now learn war, but in that age men will learn war no longer--

Isa 2:4 And He shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, nor shall they learn war any more.


It would not be the case that God would judge many nations and rebuke many peoples in the eternal state when God is ALL in ALL., for the picture given in scripture of the coming millennium is that a number of kings of the earth will happily receive Christ at His coming.


We are actually in the last days. It began with the ministry of Christ and ends at His all-consummating Coming. Isaiah 2 (like Micah 4) is specifically speaking of the kingdom of God (“the mountain of the Lord's house”), and the peaceful conditions that exist within that righteous domain.


You must live a sheltered life.


Why would Christ speak these words to His disciples--


Mat 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to affliction, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Mat 24:10 And then many will be offended, and they will deliver up one another and will hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets will be raised and will cause many to err.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness shall have been multiplied, the love of the many will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But the one who endures to the end, that one will be kept safe.

Mar 13:12 And a brother will deliver up a brother to death, and a father the child. And children will rise up on parents and will put them to death.




This spiritual kingdom contains the elect of God alone and is free of physical war and physical destruction that exists in the world.


Oh.



I need to clarify a few things:

Q. 5. When are the New Heavens and the New Earth ushered in, at the beginning or end of the millennium?


The rulership of Christ and the saints replaces the present rulership in the Heavens generally regarded as the churches once established in righteousness but seen to fall before the return of Christ and renewed afterward.


Dan 8:12 And a host was given with the regular sacrifice because of transgression. And it threw the truth down to the ground, and it worked and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that one who spoke, Until when is the vision, the regular sacrifice and the desolating transgression, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled?
Dan 8:14 And he said to me, For two thousand, three hundred evenings and mornings, then the sanctuary will be put right.


The new earth is describing both the people over which the Heavenlies rule and the conditions among them. All kings and nations will be subject to the rule of Heaven.


This is all typed by Israel of the OT which was a type of the whole world to come during the millennium and the leading of a people from the present fallen age to enter into it as typed in Exodus.


Did the whole world burn up when God came down on the mountain of God and Moses went up including the seventy? No.


Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
Isa 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.



Quote:
Psa 72:2 Your people He shall judge in righteousness, and Your poor in justice.
Psa 72:3 The mountains will lift up peace to the people, and the little hills through righteousness.
Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people; and He shall save the sons of the needy; and He shall crush the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear You with the sun, and before the moon in all generations.
Psa 72:6 He shall descend like rain on the mown grass, like showers that water the earth.
Psa 72:7 In His days the righteous shall flourish, and plenty of peace, till the moon is not.
Psa 72:8 He shall also rule from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 Those dwelling in the desert will bow before Him, and His enemies will lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents; the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.

How many nations and kings of nations will there be in the eternal state?

How many generations?

Is there a sea in the earth after the last judgment? No.

Is this psalm a picture of our present time? No.

Gotta go for now.


Is this not what the intro of the kingdom of God caused as the Gospel went out through the nations?

Paul


The text does not say so--


Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.


Merton

quiet dove
Feb 27th 2008, 01:18 AM
Mograce2U
What would Jesus have done if Israel had acknowledged Him as the promised One, and repented of their sins against God the Father?

The remnant of Israel DID do exactly that and were saved
If that is true, why did Jesus say this
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
This was said to Israel as a nation, not a remnant.



David
But the Gentiles were promised the same Messiah also. Jesus is the Messiah for all humankind; not just one sub-ethnic group.
I understand that Jesus is the only Messiah for all men, regardless of ethniticity.




QD
What would Jesus have done if Israel had acknowledged Him as the promised One, and repented of their sins against God the Father?

David
Accepted those Israelites in the same manner as he accepted Peter and Bartholemew and Lazarus and Zaccaeus, and Nicodemus, and in the same manner as the Jews who did come to Him.

It would have given Him even more laborers to enter into the fields ripe for harvest, right? I don’t doubt that Jesus would accept anyone who repented and turned to God, however, that still does not answer my question. But what would Jesus have done if Israel, as a nation, repented of their sins, just like God always wanted them to do through out there history. Repented and turned to Him in their heart.




wpm
According to Dispensationalism/Pretrib, if Israel would have accepted Jesus as their King then Christ would immediately have been crowned king of the nation. As a result, Calvary would never have happened (or have been needed). In the Dispensationalism/Pretrib theory, Calvary was God's plan B. This notion is of course absurd. There had to be a Calvary for men to be saved. This thinking alone is sufficient grounds to reject Dispensationalism (although there are numerous other elementary biblical reasons to dismiss it). It makes God's expressed intent from all eternity a lie. Well, I didn’t ask what any one else or label teaches. I have never said anything about Calvary being plan B. To tell me this is the same thing as putting words in my mouth, things I personally have not said. As far as Calvary not happening, that was my question. If Israel had repented and turned to their God, acknowledging that Jesus was their promised Messiah, what would have happened?The rest of your post tells me what I already know:
That Christ is the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world, without blemish and all this was forordained. And that He did it perfectly. That through Christ men are free from bondage, if they are in Christ they are free. That the blood of bulls could not take away sin.



wpm
That “better hope” was Christ and the transaction He paid for sin at the cross. It was that final sacrifice for sin that perfects the redeemed. Why? Christ has satisfied every righteous demand of a holy God. He took upon Himself our sin and in turn took the penalty that was due to us. There is therefore no condemnation for them that are in Christ. Heb 10:14 of this narrative confirms: “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

I understand this, your talking to me like I just got saved last night. Even us pre tribbers understand that Jesus is the only name under heaven given among men that a man can be saved. That there is only one Jesus and one gospel for all men.



john146 I understand that all was forordained and that is was going to happen the way it happened. I am just asking a hypothetical scenario, that’s all.

Would Jesus restored the nation of Israel?
And why can He not still restore the nation, and the restored nation consisting of those who are in Christ Jesus, saved just like the rest of us have been, through Jesus. Why can’t Jesus rule the earth from David’s throne, a throne that is rightfully His. Something He has not done.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Its clear He over came and sat down with His Father, on His Fathers throne, not David’s throne.


So if Israel had of believed Him, that He was(is) their promised Messiah, what would He have done? Would he have restored the nation of Israel? Would He have taken David’s throne? Is He now not going to take David’s throne?

Would Jesus restored the nation of Israel?
And why can He not still restore the nation, and the restored nation consisting of those who are in Christ Jesus, saved just like the rest of us have been, through Jesus. Why can’t Jesus rule the earth from David’s throne, a throne that is rightfully His. Something He has not done.

Bing
Feb 27th 2008, 04:06 AM
Paul outlines the terms, qualifications and restrictions involved in inheriting the new perfect environment: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50). This is the reason why glorification is needed. The whole context of 1 Corinthians 11 supports this contention. The first fact we see in this reading is: the new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. In doing so, he makes it crystal-clear that corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.

wpm, it is indeed good to see you again!

I should like to participate in this thread, as I have enjoyed several fruitful discussions with you in the past (at least, I consider them fruitful, and owe you a debt for helping to hone my fervent belief in premillennialism, and distaste for amillennialism and dispensationalism).

We have discussed 1 Corinthians 15:50 before, and have together concluded that our disagreement rests upon our disparate preconceptions as to the meaning of "inherit". I consider the Millennial Kingdom (so-called) to be a transitionary period prior to the inheritance promised the saints, whereas you consider that any experiential entrance into the New Earth by unglorified men and women would be in conflict with this verse.

We have agreed (I believe) to disagree on this. If I might be so bold as to inquire: have you any other verses to hand that stipulate that humanity will not be allowed to experience the Return of our Lord Jesus? We have also discussed 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7, and have agreed to lay that verse aside, too.

Besides your own personal distaste with the idea (shoats, I believe was the term you used to describe people living past the Second Coming!) - and agreeing to temporarily put aside these two scriptures - have you any scriptural basis for denying non-dispensational premillennialism?

Please understand that I am not ignoring these two scriptures. Far from it! I believe that 1 Corinthians 15:50 offers unique insight into the nature of the Millennial Kingdom, and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7 explains the character of the survivors of Jesus' return splendidly. But if these are the only two scriptures that preclude you from accepting a premillennialist interpretation of the end of the age - well! We had better devote a thread to each in the future, hm?[/quote]


In the light of this, the questions I must ask are:

(1) How can the saints reproduce on the new earth (as Merton contends)? They will have to be perfect (being arrayed in new bodies) to even inherit it.
(2) How can sinful mortals even inherit the new earth in their corrupt state?
(3) On what grounds do they enter the millennial kingdom?
(4) Who are Gog and Magog in the Premil paradigm?
I shall be pleased to reply in-depth to each of these questions presently.

Mograce2U
Feb 27th 2008, 04:33 AM
QuietDove: What would Jesus have done if Israel had acknowledged Him as the promised One, and repented of their sins against God the Father?

Mograce2U: The remnant of Israel DID do exactly that and were saved

QuietDove:: If that is true, why did Jesus say this
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

This was said to Israel as a nation, not a remnant.

Mograce2U: Jesus says that He wanted to gather Jerusalem many times before but they were not willing to be gathered. Their stubbornness is why only a remnant was saved and not the whole nation. God is not obligated to extend His promise to those who refuse it. IMO that is why the nation of Israel is not in view for any "unfulfilled" prophecy that was not already received by the remnant in the 1st century as well as all those who have believed the gospel ever since.

This may seem harsh but God had warned them way back when Moses brought them out of Egypt; that if they forsook the Lord the plagues of Egypt would come upon them. And we see that the Pharisees were of the same hard-heartedness against the Lord as Pharoah was. And like Pharoah, they were blinded in their unbelief and God committed them to it.

I don't see anywhere in scripture that a promise is held out for a people who continue in their unbelief, whether as an individual or a nation. Jesus did not come to restore the earthly kingdom to the nation - that was their plan, not God's. Jesus came to redeem them so that their place in the resurrection of the just would be secure. But they considered themselves unworthy of eternal life:

(Acts 13:46 KJV) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

And so they missed it all because of their stubbornness and refusal to believe. And many who persisted in unbelief have died without hope since then. Which was never God's plan for any nation. What else would you have Him to do? Jesus cannot die for them again.

My heart's Desire
Feb 27th 2008, 05:44 AM
Question:

What would have happened if Israel had accepted and acknowledged Jesus as their coming promised Messiah?

Don't say something obvious or get into the Cross, we know that much. But hypothetically speaking, what would have happened if Israel had understood Jesus was their promised Messiah?

You may think this is changing the subject, but it is not.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,...
Col 1:16 ...All things were created through Him and for Him.

Mat 23:38 ...I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

What would have happened if they had been willing?

The way I understand from the 1st chapter of Acts is that if they had of done that then the Kingdom would have been restored to Israel (whatever the meaning of that would entail). Since the question was asked after Jesus' resurrection but before He ascended into heaven, perhaps the diciples knew the kingdom couldn't be restore until the sacrifice of Christ had occurred, as it had?
But here's another question, since God knows all things do we think that it was not God's will for their eyes to be opened at that time as a Nation since the kingdom was not restored at that time, but perhaps it was God's will for blindness to remain for a while longer so that a remnant as well as future believing Gentiles could enter also? Obviously, since Jesus is the Lamb slain since the foundation of the World it still would have happened right?

wpm
Feb 27th 2008, 06:22 AM
Bing


wpm, it is indeed good to see you again!

Good to renew friendship. :pp


We have discussed 1 Corinthians 15:50 before, and have together concluded that our disagreement rests upon our disparate preconceptions as to the meaning of "inherit".

I'm sorry but I have to start off disagreeing. I believe that was your conclusion, not mine. That was only one of several points that I took issue with your millennial view on. I feel your argument largely depended on putting a restricted meaning on "inherit" in order to allow Premil to fit.


I consider the Millennial Kingdom (so-called) to be a transitionary period prior to the inheritance promised the saints, whereas you consider that any experiential entrance into the New Earth by unglorified men and women would be in conflict with this verse.

Scripture only recognises two ages - "this age" (time) and the "age to come" (eternity). This forbids the possibility of an in-between parenthesis millennial age. Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between the here-and-now and the “age to come.”

Romans 8:16-18 declares, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”

In this reading, Paul is simply comparing the testing that God’s people currently endure in this current life, which is plagued with all the consequences of the fall, and the joy of the eternal state when Christ comes that is totally purged of the curse. He speaks of a time when “the children of God” will be “glorified together” at His return. He assures his audience that the difficulties of this life are nothing “to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” when Christ appears. His whole focus is the glory that will be finally and eternally realised at Christ’s return.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

God has set aside a day when He will finally bring time, sin and corruption to an end. The central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” When is that day? When we are glorified and our bodies are redeemed (as Postmils and Amils believe) or 1,000 yrs+ after that? This is essentially where the rubber meets the road. I believe we don't need to speculate - the answer is in the passage.

There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption.” Scripture makes it repeatedly clear that there will be an end to the current fallen state. Before moving on, we should establish what the “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage (that will one day be removed) really is? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay.

This reading confirms that the approaching change occurs at the one final future Coming of Christ – the day of redemption. It tell us that the "whole of creation" is "waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.” It is only then that the “sons of God” are finally glorified, and therefore totally and eternally delivered from this continuing “bondage of corruption” into the “glorious liberty of the children of God.” Then, this earth will be transformed from corruption to incorruption. The righteous will like be changed.


If I might be so bold as to inquire: have you any other verses to hand that stipulate that humanity will not be allowed to experience the Return of our Lord Jesus? We have also discussed 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7, and have agreed to lay that verse aside, too.


Besides your own personal distaste with the idea (shoats, I believe was the term you used to describe people living past the Second Coming!) - and agreeing to temporarily put aside these two scriptures - have you any scriptural basis for denying non-dispensational premillennialism?

Firstly, I am sorry but I reserve the right to use 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7. :) Granted, if I was Premil, I wouldn't want it to come up again because I feel it strongly challenges that school of thought. However, I must say to those who are unfamiliar with this passage that it proves that the wicked are all destroyed at Christ's Coming.

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

This passage recognises only two types of person at Christ's appearing (as all Scripture). Saved or lost, caught up or caught on. In fact, it carefully situates men in one of only two distinct groupings, and conclusively proves that it is only "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" that will survive the Second Coming. The rest are expressly destroyed.

Please note the wicked - to a man - are destroyed from "the presence of the Lord." This couldn't be more water tight.

Bing, what unregenerate man is excluded from the descripton of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

Other passages

In our previous discussion you seem to create a third group of grey people. These were the don't knows or maybes. You had them survining the wrath of God. Friend, there is no such thing. There is only saved or lost recognised in Scripture. The redeemed will be delivered in full when Christ appears, the wicked will be destroyed in full.

Jesus said, in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

This is essentially the Gospel message. Christ will meet these 2 groupings at His return.

Every single parable that refers to the Coming of Christ is climactic. They involve a general judgment. They involve only two peoples. The righteous are rewarded, the wicked are destroyed.

I refer you first to the sheep and goats.

Jesus alludes to the very same concluding day, in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46,saying, “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and (1) he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but (2) the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

There are no half-goats and half-sheep 'grey people' as you imagine. Men are either fully saved or fully lost. God has no mongrels, His people are fully redeemed. Men are either fully Christ’s or fully the devil’s. Contrary to what is taught in this modernistic age, you cannot have two spiritual passports.

Jesus also taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or) aioonos (or) age; and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Who are the wheat and who are the tares in this parable? And, is there anyone excluded from the scope of these two inclusive groupings? Or, put another way; are there any in-betweens or semi-tares / semi-wheat that are omitted in their description? I don't think so.

The same truth is also revealed by Christ in Matthew 13:47-50, in the parable of the net: “the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and (1) gathered the good into vessels, but (2) cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world (or) aioonos (or) age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

The symbolic drawing in of the net which sees the collective and simultaneous judgment of the wicked and the righteous is, like the parable of the wheat and the tares, identified with end of the aioonos or the end of the age. Plainly the Christ-rejecter is judged, sentenced and eternally separated from the elect of God at the end of the age – the time when Christ finally returns in “power and glory” to judge the living and the dead.

Romans 2:4-8 says,“despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing (speaking of the believer) seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (speaking of the wicked), indignation and wrath.”

Paul locates the judgment of the wicked at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. He confirms this, describing this concluding day as “the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” It is portrayed as the day when the wicked and the righteous are jointly brought to account for their lives and therefore receive their eternal reward. In fact, Paul demonstrates that there are only two types of people in this life – the righteous that have already entered into “eternal life” and the wicked that are already under “indignation and wrath.” The climactic nature of this depiction and the universal make-up of the judgment described prove beyond doubt that no one is excluded from its remit. Either one obeys the truth of God and will consequently realise “glory and honour and immortality, eternal life” or else one does “not obey the truth” and is eternally damned.

There are many others passages. I think this is enough for now.

Regards.

Paul

wpm
Feb 27th 2008, 06:40 AM
With what curse? Is not Satan to be bound for 1000 years (or an extended period of time) for the so-called Millennium, then afterwards being thrown into the lake of fire?

The curse is all the result of the fall. It is that innate sinful nature within man. It is the decay and corruption in his dying body. It is the decay also in creation.

From this reply you seem to be implying that because Satan is chained then the curse is removed. If you are, I disagree. Satan is not the reason why men sin, our Adamic blood is the reason.

Paul

wpm
Feb 27th 2008, 06:52 AM
Merton


You have no explanation for Jer 33:26.

Jeremiah is predicting the Messiah’s first Advent when heaven’s eternal king / priest – the Lord Jesus Christ – would appear. His arrival 2,000 years ago rendered these former imperfect types eternally obsolete. Christ assumed David’s throne at His resurrection. He now mediates as king / priest for His elect. The succession of Israeli kings is now eliminated – there is only one accepted eternal King. The succession of Israeli priests is now eliminated – there is only one accepted eternal priest.

Jeremiah 33:15-26 predicts Christ’s first Advent, saying, “In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.”

This reading is saying the opposite to what you are claiming. Please read this slowly, "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually."

It says the house of Israel shall "never want" a man to sit on the throne or to make animal sacrifices (as you desire) because Messiah will perfectly and eternally fulfil both offices. He is Israel's lone high priest. He is Israel's lone king. He holds both in the heavenly realm thus rendering the earthly shadow and type redundant.


The new earth of Rev.21:1 (not verse 2) and spoken of in 2 Peter ch 3 follows the last judgment of the last day of the last days, whereas Isaiah ch 2 is speaking of an event yet to come IN the last days.

Once again:

Q. 1. When did or will the last days commence?
Q. 2. When did or will the last days terminate?
Q. 3. When is the "last day" of the "last days"?
Q. 4. What occurs on "last day" of the "last days"?


Your difficulty will be in proving that the eternal state is a restoration of something existing in the past.

When did I state this? It is a new arrangement.



Actually the word is reconstitution and if we look at Gods instructions to the first Adam to restore the earth, well he never did it, but the second Adam who is Christ will do so with His Bride.

The world was made perfect to be inhabited but outside of the garden of Eden it was untamed country suitable for animals and not for humans. (maybe few know that animals reflect actions of the carnal heart of man and sea creatures depict the spiritual secrets of mans religions)

You are mistaken about the New Jerusalem coming down on a new earth in Rev.ch 21. It does say when the New Jerusalem comes down that God will dwell with mankind, which would not be the case if the only mankind was the New Jerusalem saints themselves.

Neither would there be the wicked outside of it, if they were burnt up, for they are only in prison awaiting the last judgment when the New Jerusalem comes down..--

Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones thatare on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Neither would there be any nations to receive the river of life flowing from the Throne of God of the New Jerusalem if it was the time of the eternal state. (Rev.22:1-2)

Peter only deals with warning mankind of the last judgment as all prophets did in the past, but the believer since Pentecost is given instruction on inheriting the Kingdom of God at the first resurrection at the appearing of Christ which as I have pointed out was not given to many of the OT believers most of whom did not walk with God in all Holiness but will not be destroyed at the last judgment either. Ezekiel mentions a time before and after inheritance.

Paul gave the strictness required of them who would inherit the Kingdom of God at the first resurrection. I repeat it again--

Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss because of Christ.
Phi 3:8 But, no, rather I also count all things to be loss because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them to be trash, that I might gain Christ
Phi 3:9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness of Law, but through the faith of Christ, having the righteousness of God on faith,
Phi 3:10 to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, having been conformed to His death,
Phi 3:11 if somehow I may attain to a resurrection out of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:13 Brothers, I do not count myself to have laid hold, but one thing I do, forgetting the things behind, and stretching forward to those things before,
Phi 3:14 I press on after a mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
This was further to the message given to OT believers by the Prophets and only began to be preached from Jesus onward for it required the receiving of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant for believers to be engaged in it, though a few men compared to the number of the OT believers did ,because God made Himself available to them for the purpose, men like David, as an example of something of Jesus and other men to come. Even Paul mentioned that he was one born out of due time (premature). It begs the question, when is the due time?

However please note that while David did suffer for some time at the hands of fleshy minded religious men of Gods own houshold, that David did come to the time of his reigning over the Kingdom which means the same as inheriting the Kingdom promised to overcomers of the NT era after their resurrection but initially typing the life of Christ Himself, and further to that his son Solomon began to reign in his stead, that is on his fathers throne when he also inherited the Kingdom and immediately began to destroy the enemies of God and of David, which does type the return of Christ and the completion of the Temple and the filling of Gods house with Gods Glory as well as the completion of Solomons house and Throne as all part of Jerusalem.

You really have to consider these things more carefully not as a bible student but as a disciple of Christ learning from Him.

You will find much to consider in 2 Chron ch 1 to 8.


You are rendering the words of 2 Peter 3 meaningless.

1. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the heavens pass away / perish with a great noise?

2. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the elements be ‘loosed by being set on fire’?

3. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly’?

4. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the works that are within the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly’?

Paul

wpm
Feb 27th 2008, 07:05 AM
Well, I didn’t ask what any one else or label teaches. I have never said anything about Calvary being plan B. To tell me this is the same thing as putting words in my mouth, things I personally have not said. As far as Calvary not happening, that was my question. If Israel had repented and turned to their God, acknowledging that Jesus was their promised Messiah, what would have happened?The rest of your post tells me what I already know:
That Christ is the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world, without blemish and all this was forordained. And that He did it perfectly. That through Christ men are free from bondage, if they are in Christ they are free. That the blood of bulls could not take away sin.

I understand this, your talking to me like I just got saved last night. Even us pre tribbers understand that Jesus is the only name under heaven given among men that a man can be saved. That there is only one Jesus and one gospel for all men.


I understand that all was forordained and that is was going to happen the way it happened. I am just asking a hypothetical scenario, that’s all.

Would Jesus restored the nation of Israel?
And why can He not still restore the nation, and the restored nation consisting of those who are in Christ Jesus, saved just like the rest of us have been, through Jesus. Why can’t Jesus rule the earth from David’s throne, a throne that is rightfully His. Something He has not done.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Its clear He over came and sat down with His Father, on His Fathers throne, not David’s throne.

So if Israel had of believed Him, that He was(is) their promised Messiah, what would He have done? Would he have restored the nation of Israel? Would He have taken David’s throne? Is He now not going to take David’s throne?

Would Jesus restored the nation of Israel?
And why can He not still restore the nation, and the restored nation consisting of those who are in Christ Jesus, saved just like the rest of us have been, through Jesus. Why can’t Jesus rule the earth from David’s throne, a throne that is rightfully His. Something He has not done.

He took David's throne. The unbelieving Jews had a wrong concept of it. Their Davidic throne was an earthly temporal throne, whereas the real Davidic throne was a heavenly seat over the Israel of God, which He now assumes. This is the same mistake the Dispies make - they are looking for the restoration of an earthly throne.

The biblical evidence is found in Acts 2:25-36. Here is the start of Christ's heavenly rule from heaven. Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1, when speaking about David and his throne, says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [speaking of Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:25-36).

This reading is concentrated upon the death, burial and resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago. It also reveals the Lord’s current kingly Messianic reign over all mankind at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates His assumption of the same to “the resurrection of Christ.” As the son of man Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus meritoriously earning the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

Paul

quiet dove
Feb 27th 2008, 08:30 AM
He took David's throne.




Does that mean that God's throne is David's throne?

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Why can't Christ reign on earth, from Jerusalem, as so many OT prophecies decribe, (that you apply to the Church?) And why would Christ, reigning on the earth change anything about the way people are saved? I mean if Christ were to come here, set up an earthly kingdom with his resurrected saints reigning with Him over mortal men, Jesus would still be Savior and those mortals would still be saved through His atoning blood.

Merton
Feb 27th 2008, 10:08 AM
Merton



Jeremiah is predicting the Messiah’s first Advent when heaven’s eternal king / priest – the Lord Jesus Christ – would appear. His arrival 2,000 years ago rendered these former imperfect types eternally obsolete. Christ assumed David’s throne at His resurrection.

Nothing in what you said gives understanding of ---


Jer 33:25 So says Jehovah, If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of the heavens and earth,
Jer 33:26 then I also will reject the seed of Jacob, and My servant David, not to take of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will bring back their captivity and have pity on them.


So I will give the understanding of it ---

God will not reject the believing seed of Jacob and all who are the seed of Christ from any peoples, who will reign over the believing seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, when God brings back their captivity and has pity on them.

You attempt to fit this prophecy to the time of Jesus first coming but it clearly can not refer to that time.


I leave you with it.

See you down the Shankill.



Merton.

Clifton
Feb 27th 2008, 03:40 PM
The curse is all the result of the fall. It is that innate sinful nature within man. It is the decay and corruption in his dying body. It is the decay also in creation.

From this reply you seem to be implying that because Satan is chained then the curse is removed. If you are, I disagree. Satan is not the reason why men sin, our Adamic blood is the reason.

Paul

My statement in regards to "Satan being chained" is that he will not be able to deceive (no more statements like "The Devil made me do it" as an excuse). This period is to take place upon this current physical Earth - perhaps I should have better clarified without the Hebrew Idioms, (i.e. New Heavens and Earth), and perhaps say, "physical" versus "metaphysical" (if someone has a better word, I am all ears).

After Satan is loosed, there is war (march of Gog and Magog against the beloved city). Their destruction will be by supernatural means, and then there will be the casting of Satan into the lake of fire. Afterwards, there will be a BIGGER and NEWER Earth, NEWER Heavens: all things new;

Revelation Chapter 21-b:5a.4d.5b
(5a) He who sits on the throne said, (4d) “The first things have passed away. (5b) Behold, I am making all things new;”

That's what I am referring to as the metaphysical. Then there is the state of perfection for all saints (which would include the remnant), and only then.

Correct me if I assume incorrectly, but are you at the belief that saints of the past and now, after they died/die, are "put back" on THIS Current Earth after its conflagration (this is the better term, as used by someone else in this thread)? If not, then just "who" do you believe will be in this period? To the best of my recollection, my learnings suggest that only martyrs and those that survive into it will be in this so-called Millennium.

But as for "Earths", this physical Earth has a "past, present, and future", and the period of long-life spans and other goodies are included for this physical Earth, and that is the "final" age for this physical Earth. Isaiah Chapters 40 to 66 include this period, along with other passages within the book and outside of it.

wpm
Feb 27th 2008, 04:19 PM
Revelation Chapter 21-b:5a.4d.5b
(5a) He who sits on the throne said, (4d) “The first things have passed away. (5b) Behold, I am making all things new;”



I believe the Scripture you use to support your hypothesis relates to the Coming of Christ. It is important to corroborate Scripture with other relevant Scripture.

Isaiah 65:17 says, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered."

The Coming in of Christ sees the removal of the current currupt arrangement and the introduction of the glorified new earth.

2 Peter 3:10-11 says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved.”

Revelation 20:11 records, "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Revelation 21:4-5 confirms, "the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new."

All these beautifully agree and relate to the one final all-consummating event - the return of Christ when He introduces the paradise of God for all eternity. Death will be abolished. Sin will be abolished. Sickness, decay and every vestige of the fall will be removed.

This is backed up by I Corinthians 15:50, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

This passage is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ. I feel Romans 8:19-23 also supports that. This proves that death and all the result of the fall are removed when we are glorified ("the redemption of our body”). How might this be done? The whole import of 2 Peter 3:10-13, I Thessalonians 5:2-7 and Luke 17:26-30 is the unexpected and climactic nature of the Lord’s Coming. This is a truth that is presented several times in the New Testament – most notably by Christ Himself.

Scripture expressly forbids the Premil sin-cursed goat-infested death-blighted millennium. It identifies the point of the termination of all this at the moment we are glorified. The new earth is then completely free of every vestige of the fall. The earth is restored to its perfect pristine condition by way of fiery regeneration.

Regards.

Paul

John146
Feb 27th 2008, 05:04 PM
I understand that all was forordained and that is was going to happen the way it happened. I am just asking a hypothetical scenario, that’s all. I understand that. It would be nice if you answered Paul's original four non-hypothetical questions, though.


Would Jesus restored the nation of Israel?What does this mean? They were already a nation.


And why can He not still restore the nation, and the restored nation consisting of those who are in Christ Jesus, saved just like the rest of us have been, through Jesus. Why can’t Jesus rule the earth from David’s throne, a throne that is rightfully His. Something He has not done.He has already ascended to the throne. He was the one in David's lineage who was prophesied to be the King, the Messiah. He will never actually literally sit on David's throne. Do you know where it is? If it's actually out there, it would be really old and beyond repair and certainly not worthy for Jesus to sit on it. This passage tells us that Christ is already on the throne:

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. - Acts 2:29-36

This passage says that the prophecy regarding Christ sitting on David's throne was actually related to His resurrection and subsequent ascension to the heavenly throne. You want it to mean that it has something to do with Christ sitting on David's physical throne (where is it now?), but Peter explained that is not what the prophecy was about.



Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Its clear He over came and sat down with His Father, on His Fathers throne, not David’s throne.That verse is not speaking of literal, physical thrones. God the Father is not a physical being. Do you think He actually sits on a physical throne? Their thrones are symbolic for their presence. Jesus currently sits in the presence of the Father at His right hand. Similarly, once He returns, we will sit in the presence of Jesus at His right hand.



So if Israel had of believed Him, that He was(is) their promised Messiah, what would He have done? Would he have restored the nation of Israel? Again, what does that mean? If they believed He was the Messiah, what would there have been to restore as it relates to the nation of Israel?



Would He have taken David’s throne? Is He now not going to take David’s throne?He already has, as I illustrated above.



Would Jesus restored the nation of Israel?

And why can He not still restore the nation, and the restored nation consisting of those who are in Christ Jesus, saved just like the rest of us have been, through Jesus. Why can’t Jesus rule the earth from David’s throne, a throne that is rightfully His. Something He has not done.Once again, He is already on the throne. Don't you believe He is the King? Why would Jesus, who does not look at Jews and Gentiles any differently because He is not a respecter or persons, at some point in the future restore the nation of Israel and not the nation of Iran?

wpm
Feb 27th 2008, 06:35 PM
Does that mean that God's throne is David's throne?

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Why can't Christ reign on earth, from Jerusalem, as so many OT prophecies decribe, (that you apply to the Church?) And why would Christ, reigning on the earth change anything about the way people are saved? I mean if Christ were to come here, set up an earthly kingdom with his resurrected saints reigning with Him over mortal men, Jesus would still be Savior and those mortals would still be saved through His atoning blood.


As God He reigns on His Father's throne, as man He reigns on David's throne. This is simply talking about His overall all-embracing kingship. When it talks of Him sitting on these thrones it is describing the reality of Him assuming the place of authority.

It is not necessary talking about physical thrones, there is no record that David sat on a physical throne. He now reigns in dual fulfilment of every kingly demand made on Him - as God and man. Scripture shows us that the Pharisees (with their hyper-literalist thinking) struggled with the duality of His nature and kingship.

Paul

Clifton
Feb 27th 2008, 07:55 PM
I believe the Scripture you use to support your hypothesis relates to the Coming of Christ. It is important to corroborate Scripture with other relevant Scripture.

Isaiah 65:17 says, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered."

Apparently not the “new earth” that you think. I have already pointed out follow-up scriptures that show that. This is a restoration of this Earth as it was in the beginning. Let’s try it again: ;)

Isaiah 65:20-25 UPDV
20 There will be no more from there an infant of days, nor an old man who has not filled his days; for the child will die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old will be accursed.
21 And they will build houses, and inhabit them; and they will plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They will not build, and another inhabit; they will not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree will be the days of my people, and my chosen will long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Yahweh, and their offspring with them.
24 And it will come to pass that, before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will be shepherded together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, says Yahweh.

I asked you, are you at the belief that saints of the past and now, after they died/die, are "put back" on THIS Current Earth after its conflagration of it? If not, then just "who" do you believe will be in this period on this Earth?


The Coming in of Christ sees the removal of the current currupt arrangement and the introduction of the glorified new earth.
So you put the Coming of Christ at the end of the so-called Millennium Age, or after Gog and Magog?


2 Peter 3:10-11 says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved.” You equate “the day of the Lord” as occurring the "same time" as the next Advent of Christ (or the last Advent)? BTW, what you are reading was not in ALL MSS, and Christians had different readings throughout different ages, so we do not know exactly what the last phrase is for sure. I was aware of this in the last century, but to shorten things down, I’ll quote Robertson’s Word Pictures:

Shall be burned up (κατακαησεται). Repeated in verse #12. Second future passive of the compound verb κατακαιω, to burn down (up), according to A L. But Aleph B K P read ευρεθησεται (future passive of ευρισκω, to find) "shall be found." There are various other readings here. The text seems corrupt.


Revelation 20:11 records, "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
You contradict your position by citing this verse. This occurs AFTER the so-called Millennium. You need exegetical works (best to have more than one) if you want to study the Bible versions of Revelation, to get the disorders into better sequence and interpolations cleared out (or ignored); I will present a modernized English update based upon A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John; R. H. Charles, T. & T. Clark, 1920 (2 Volumes).

--- Summary ---
~SECTION G~

Chapter 20c (20:11.13.12.14.15)

*20:11-15.* (Vision of the great throne and of Him that sat thereon, before whose presence the former heaven and the former earth forthwith vanish. Judgment of the dead. Death and hell cast into the lake of fire.)
------------------
(After the march of Gog and Magog against the Beloved City:…)
{:note:NOTE: Footnotes not included, but are available upon request}

(11) I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.
(13) (a) “The Treasuries [of The Righteous]” gave up the dead who were in it (sic: the righteous who had not suffered martyrdom). (b) Death and Hades [of The Unrighteous] gave up the dead who were in them (sic: the wicked). (c) They were judged, each one according to his works. ((a,b). 1 Enoch 51:1 "Sheol also shall give back that which it has received, and hell shall give back that which it owes."; <<(c). Psalm 62:12>>) See also, Endnote:v.

Now that all the dead have been given up:

(12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, (14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21:4-5 confirms, "the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new." I have already quoted this (properly sequenced) in Post #30 of this thread – I’ll do it again:

Revelation Chapter 21-b:5a.4d.5b
(5a) He who sits on the throne said, (4d) “The first things have passed away. (5b) Behold, I am making all things new;”

This is AFTER the so-called Millennium, Gog and Magog, etc. The first things will be rolled up like a scroll - vanished (that is different, from a conflagration of the Earth).


All these beautifully agree and relate to the one final all-consummating event - the return of Christ when He introduces the paradise of God for all eternity. Death will be abolished. Sin will be abolished. Sickness, decay and every vestige of the fall will be removed. No, they agree no more than anything else that depends on snippets disjointed from context. A suicide doctrine could be accomplished by such methods.


This is backed up by I Corinthians 15:50, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."


This passage is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ. The English rendering is good, but it ‘appears’ you have made some grammatical readjustments of the underlying Greek. I won’t go into that now, but will say, that the passage can speak more than just the Advent of Christ – do you think Enoch and Elias is still flesh and blood?


I feel Romans 8:19-23 also supports that. This proves that death and all the result of the fall are removed when we are glorified ("the redemption of our body”). How might this be done? The whole import of 2 Peter 3:10-13, I Thessalonians 5:2-7 and Luke 17:26-30 is the unexpected and climactic nature of the Lord’s Coming. This is a truth that is presented several times in the New Testament – most notably by Christ Himself.
The Treasury Of Scripture Knowledge (for better understanding passages that are related or are parallels) has this:

* this.
#1Co 1:12 7:29 2Co 9:6 Ga 3:17 5:16 Eph 4:17 Col 2:4
* that.
#1Co 6:13 Mt 16:17 Joh 3:3-6 2Co 5:1

Though at this stage, in it’s imperfect state, The Kingdom of God is here, among, and within you. When you are born from above (aka “born again”), John 3:3, The Kingdom Of God is within you (Luke 17:20-21). It will reach it’s climax of perfection in the end.


Scripture expressly forbids the Premil sin-cursed goat-infested death-blighted millennium. It identifies the point of the termination of all this at the moment we are glorified. The new earth is then completely free of every vestige of the fall. The earth is restored to its perfect pristine condition by way of fiery regeneration. But when I restored passages like Isaiah 65:20-25 (all of which includes things that have never happened yet) to your quote of v.17, “scripture” does not expressly forbid the so-called Millennium, but expressly reveals it. That is a primary function of scriptures like Isaiah Chapters 40-66.


Regards.
Paul Regards,
Clifton

ShirleyFord
Feb 27th 2008, 08:27 PM
As God He reigns on His Father's throne, as man He reigns on David's throne. This is simply talking about His overall all-embracing kingship. When it talks of Him sitting on these thrones it is describing the reality of Him assuming the place of authority.

It is not necessary talking about physical thrones, there is no record that David sat on a physical throne. He now reigns in dual fulfilment of every kingly demand made on Him - as God and man. Scripture shows us that the Pharisees (with their hyper-literalist thinking) struggled with the duality of His nature and kingship.

Paul


Amen Paul.

Scripture tells us that Solomon sat on the throne of David, the throne of Israel and the throne of the Lord.

2 Sam 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=10&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.

1 Kings 1:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David.

1 Kings 1:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And moreover the king's servants came to bless our lord king David, saying, God make the name of Solomon better than thy name, and make his throne greater than thy throne. And the king bowed himself upon the bed.

1 Kings 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.

1 Kings 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Now therefore, as the LORD liveth, which hath established me, and set me on the throne of David my father, and who hath made me an house, as he promised, Adonijah shall be put to death this day.

1 Kings 2:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.

1 Kings 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And Solomon said, Thou hast showed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day.

1 Kings 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God, as the LORD spake unto David my father, saying, Thy son, whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room, he shall build an house unto my name.

1 Kings 8:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the LORD hath performed his word that he spake, and I am risen up in the room of David my father, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised, and have built an house for the name of the LORD God of Israel.

1 Kings 8:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.


1 Chron 29:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=13&CHAP=29&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.


But the only physical throne we find Solomon reigning from was his own throne that he built after becoming king:


1 Kings 10:16 And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target.

17 And he made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.

18 Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.

19 The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.




Shirley

John146
Feb 27th 2008, 08:39 PM
You equate “the day of the Lord” as occurring the "same time" as the next Advent of Christ (or the last Advent)?

Of course it is. And what do you mean by next Advent of Christ and last Advent of Christ? He's only coming one more time. Just after speaking about the Lord's second coming in 1 Thess 4:13-18, Paul says this:

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. - 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6

What do you think this passage is referring to? Notice the reference to sudden destruction coming upon people who are not aware that the day of the Lord is coming.

This is the sudden destruction that Paul was talking about:

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. - 2 Thess 1:7-10



You contradict your position by citing this verse. This occurs AFTER the so-called Millennium.It doesn't contradict his view at all. Are you not familiar with the amillennialist understanding of the so-called Millennium?

wpm
Feb 27th 2008, 09:17 PM
Apparently not the “new earth” that you think. I have already pointed out follow-up scriptures that show that. This is a restoration of this Earth as it was in the beginning. Let’s try it again: ;)

Isaiah 65:20-25 UPDV
20 There will be no more from there an infant of days, nor an old man who has not filled his days; for the child will die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old will be accursed.
21 And they will build houses, and inhabit them; and they will plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They will not build, and another inhabit; they will not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree will be the days of my people, and my chosen will long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Yahweh, and their offspring with them.
24 And it will come to pass that, before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will be shepherded together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, says Yahweh.

I asked you, are you at the belief that saints of the past and now, after they died/die, are "put back" on THIS Current Earth after its conflagration of it? If not, then just "who" do you believe will be in this period on this Earth?


So you put the Coming of Christ at the end of the so-called Millennium Age, or after Gog and Magog?

You equate “the day of the Lord” as occurring the "same time" as the next Advent of Christ (or the last Advent)? BTW, what you are reading was not in ALL MSS, and Christians had different readings throughout different ages, so we do not know exactly what the last phrase is for sure. I was aware of this in the last century, but to shorten things down, I’ll quote Robertson’s Word Pictures:

Shall be burned up (κατακαησεται). Repeated in verse #12. Second future passive of the compound verb κατακαιω, to burn down (up), according to A L. But Aleph B K P read ευρεθησεται (future passive of ευρισκω, to find) "shall be found." There are various other readings here. The text seems corrupt.

You contradict your position by citing this verse. This occurs AFTER the so-called Millennium. You need exegetical works (best to have more than one) if you want to study the Bible versions of Revelation, to get the disorders into better sequence and interpolations cleared out (or ignored); I will present a modernized English update based upon A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John; R. H. Charles, T. & T. Clark, 1920 (2 Volumes).

--- Summary ---
~SECTION G~

Chapter 20c (20:11.13.12.14.15)

*20:11-15.* (Vision of the great throne and of Him that sat thereon, before whose presence the former heaven and the former earth forthwith vanish. Judgment of the dead. Death and hell cast into the lake of fire.)
------------------
(After the march of Gog and Magog against the Beloved City:…)
{:note:NOTE: Footnotes not included, but are available upon request}

(11) I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.
(13) (a) “The Treasuries [of The Righteous]” gave up the dead who were in it (sic: the righteous who had not suffered martyrdom). (b) Death and Hades [of The Unrighteous] gave up the dead who were in them (sic: the wicked). (c) They were judged, each one according to his works. ((a,b). 1 Enoch 51:1 "Sheol also shall give back that which it has received, and hell shall give back that which it owes."; <<(c). Psalm 62:12>>) See also, Endnote:v.

Now that all the dead have been given up:

(12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, (14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

I have already quoted this (properly sequenced) in Post #30 of this thread – I’ll do it again:

Revelation Chapter 21-b:5a.4d.5b
(5a) He who sits on the throne said, (4d) “The first things have passed away. (5b) Behold, I am making all things new;”

This is AFTER the so-called Millennium, Gog and Magog, etc. The first things will be rolled up like a scroll - vanished (that is different, from a conflagration of the Earth).

No, they agree no more than anything else that depends on snippets disjointed from context. A suicide doctrine could be accomplished by such methods.

The English rendering is good, but it ‘appears’ you have made some grammatical readjustments of the underlying Greek. I won’t go into that now, but will say, that the passage can speak more than just the Advent of Christ – do you think Enoch and Elias is still flesh and blood?


The Treasury Of Scripture Knowledge (for better understanding passages that are related or are parallels) has this:

* this.
#1Co 1:12 7:29 2Co 9:6 Ga 3:17 5:16 Eph 4:17 Col 2:4
* that.
#1Co 6:13 Mt 16:17 Joh 3:3-6 2Co 5:1

Though at this stage, in it’s imperfect state, The Kingdom of God is here, among, and within you. When you are born from above (aka “born again”), John 3:3, The Kingdom Of God is within you (Luke 17:20-21). It will reach it’s climax of perfection in the end.

But when I restored passages like Isaiah 65:20-25 (all of which includes things that have never happened yet) to your quote of v.17, “scripture” does not expressly forbid the so-called Millennium, but expressly reveals it. That is a primary function of scriptures like Isaiah Chapters 40-66.

Regards,
Clifton

Sorry, we have 2 diametrically oppossing modes of interpretation. I refer you back to my previous posts that addresses your last post.

Paul

Clifton
Feb 27th 2008, 09:19 PM
Of course it is. And what do you mean by next Advent of Christ and last Advent of Christ? He's only coming one more time. Just after speaking about the Lord's second coming in 1 Thess 4:13-18, Paul says this:

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Unfortunately I can only guess of one's English Rendering of a passage they provide / reference and what they have gleaned from it, or converted it into. Now, you quoted "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.", is this correct? Not nothing like "the day of the Lord WILL (FUTURE TENSE) come as a thief in the night", as in such in 2Pe 3:10, right? You do recognize Verb Tense differences, correct?


It doesn't contradict his view at all. Are you not familiar with the amillennialist understanding of the so-called Millennium?As I express, yanking snippets from context could provide a suicide view. I am familiar with the amillennialist stance that was invented in Alexandria about the 3rd or 4th Century, and popularized by Augustine (I have his works on that) with his "crystalizing" of it. Nothing in Isaiah 65:20-25 has occurred yet, for example.

I'll be back to the rest of your post shortly - gotta snack;)

John146
Feb 27th 2008, 10:14 PM
Unfortunately I can only guess of one's English Rendering of a passage they provide / reference and what they have gleaned from it, or converted it into. Now, you quoted "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.", is this correct? Not nothing like "the day of the Lord WILL (FUTURE TENSE) come as a thief in the night", as in such in 2Pe 3:10, right? You do recognize Verb Tense differences, correct?

Of course I do. Are you familiar with the concept of Scripture interpreting Scripture? Why shouldn't we associate 2 Peter 3:10-13 with 1 Thess 5:1-6? Are you trying to say that 1 Thess 5:1-6 is not speaking of the future?



As I express, yanking snippets from context could provide a suicide view. I am familiar with the amillennialist stance that was invented in Alexandria about the 3rd or 4th CenturyStop right there. You have bought into the lie. There were both amillennialists and chiliasts (what we now call historic premillennialists) even before that time. Do a little more research and you will see that.



, and popularized by Augustine (I have his works on that) with his "crystalizing" of it. Nothing in Isaiah 65:20-25 has occurred yet, for example.Who said that Isaiah 65:20-25 was fulfilled? What you should notice, though, is that Isaiah 65:19-20 says there will be no more weeping and crying and yet the child shall die at 100 years old? Won't people mourn death anymore at that time? Think about it. If someone is 100, they are not a child. That right there should tell you the verse is not meant to be read literally. Consider the possibility that Isaiah 65:20 is using symbolic and hyperbolic language that represents eternity when "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev 21:4).

Clifton
Feb 27th 2008, 10:52 PM
You asked, (EMPHASIS MINE)


And what do you mean by next Advent of Christ and last Advent of Christ?

But then in the same paragraph, you state:


He's only coming one more time. Just after speaking about the Lord's second coming in 1 Thess 4:13-18, Paul says this:Something derailed right in the middle of that paragraph.:confused

Which do you want to know about Greek-wise? Advent, coming, or both? At times, the two ARE conjoined.

Are you referring to the Greek Words linked to Strong's 1660 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1660), 2064 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2064), 3952 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3952) (παρουσια), or two or more of the above?

Where in scripture do you find the phrase "my second coming" or "Christ's/his/Lord's second coming" ?

Now, by the Greek, that assessment / inference from the scriptures is fair and proper... e.g. His coming after His death (prior to His Resurrection) to confirm the faith of His disciples. In this instance proáxo, the fut. tense of the verb proágö (4254), to lead or go before, is used (Matt. 26:32; Mark 14:28). In John 16:16 ópsesthe, the fut. tense of the verb horáō (3708), to see, or optánomai (3700), to see with one’s physical eyes, is used;

I'm aware that the term parousía refers to "the Second Coming of the Lord" (as is said on TV and in society today), but that "Second Coming" is not just one event taking place at a particular time. Rather it is made up of a series of events. We can understand which event is referred to only by a careful examination of the context in which the terms parousía or érchomai ([2064], to come) occur. I can provide examples if you'd like. The thread "Revelation: The Greek" would be a good place for this.


1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. - 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
What do you think this passage is referring to? I realize that when it comes to the Greek Words linked to Strong's 2064 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2064) can be easily misconstrued - the common English words used are those of "come" AND "go" (and the forms of those two English words). Obviously, since I am acquainted with the Greek (and Hebrew too), I do not have to "think" what the passage is referring to. Being acquainted with the Greek/Hebrew DRAMATICALLY DECREASES "private interpretations";

For you yourselves accurately know that the Day of the Lord comes in this manner: as a thief in the night. (ALT 1 Thess. 5:2)

Can I be as so kind to inform you that the Greek behind the English word "comes" here is:
5736 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5736) Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood - Indicative
?

Even the English shows that.

Will that be of some help for you to understand the context, and why you do not see it saying, "...the Day of the Lord WILL come in this manner" ?

This is a "continuous action" (otherwise the Mood would have been the Infinitive). Let me give you an English Example:

"I go to school"

That is an example of a PRESENT INDICATIVE, which includes a past, present, and future meaning. The person went to school yesterday, and still goes (present and future).

Think.

Sound doctrines and good conclusions have no need of grammatical changes or linking up other texts that ought not be linked.;)


Notice the reference to sudden destruction coming upon people who are not aware that the day of the Lord is coming.No, this is something that you, or someone that has influenced you, added to the text.


This is the sudden destruction that Paul was talking about:

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. - 2 Thess 1:7-10I am guessing that due to same words and phrases, you assume they only mean one thing, and one thing only? Example: If you assume the words "com*" always refer to the "second coming", you assume incorrectly.;) But I am glad you are aware of 2 Thessalonians - Paul said some things in 1 Thessalonians that were MISUNDERSTOOD, so he did the follow up "2 Thessalonians" as a correction.


It doesn't contradict his view at all. Are you not familiar with the amillennialist understanding of the so-called Millennium?I was not aware that I was walking into that. The only reference I find about "Earth Inheritance" is in Matthew 5:5. I was aware that some people are curious as to why there will be "sinners" in the so-called Millennium, so I erroneously thought I was providing some help on that - but from what I first saw, there was a "hole" in the history and ages of THIS Current Earth, which there will be a conflagration of, then, after the so-called Millennium, will be "rolled up" and "fled away with" (at that point, there will be no reason for a "conflagration" since it will no longer be of use), and a bigger and eternal Earth.

Clifton
Feb 27th 2008, 11:32 PM
Sorry, we have 2 diametrically oppossing modes of interpretation.

Being acquainted with the Greek/Hebrew dramatically decreases "private interpretations". The tools and resources are out there in re of my statements... I'm just passing along what you can easily access (Bible Software, Grammar Books, Interlinears, Dictionaries, etc.) If you do not have Bible Software, I can refer you to a link to a FREE one that has been in use since the 1980's - I've been using for about 14 years now, plus I have others. Here's what it looks like:

21(RWebster) Neither <3761> shall they say <2046> (5692), Lo <2400> (5628) here <5602>! or <2228>, lo <2400> (5628) there <1563>! for <1063>, behold <2400> (5628), the kingdom <932> of God <2316> is <2076> (5748) within <1787> you <5216>. {within you: or, among you}
22(BYZ) ουδε <3761> {CONJ-N} ερουσιν <2046> (5692) {V-FAI-3P} ιδου <3708> (5628) {V-2AAM-2S} ωδε <5602> {ADV} η <2228> {PRT} ιδου <3708> (5628) {V-2AAM-2S} εκει <1563> {ADV} ιδου <3708> (5628) {V-2AAM-2S} γαρ <1063> {CONJ} η <3588> {T-NSF} βασιλεια <932> {N-NSF} του <3588> {T-GSM} θεου <2316> {N-GSM} εντος <1787> {ADV} υμων <4771> {P-2GP} εστιν <1510> (5719) {V-PAI-3S}

The numbers between the bracket angles are to Strong's and the Hebrew/Greek form of the word, and the numbers between parenthesis are Verb Parsings.

You also can see the similarity at:
http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Luke&chapter=17&verse=21

I only see that I stated one OPINION, and that was that I do not believe the "1000" in 2 Peter 3:8 and Revelation 20 are not a literal 1000. That is an OPINION and VIEW on my part.


I refer you back to my previous posts that addresses your last post.I have read your posts, and responded to all of what you wrote and ask of me, yet, only once did you do that for me - that speaks volumes for your "interpretation" - I incorrectly thought you were curious as to why there will be sinners after the conflagration of the Earth and in the so-called Millennium because the issue comes up with users in forums and groups on the Internet.

Christianity is a "progressing"... may you continue to progress and progress well.;)

Take Care.

quiet dove
Feb 27th 2008, 11:53 PM
As God He reigns on His Father's throne, as man He reigns on David's throne. This is simply talking about His overall all-embracing kingship. When it talks of Him sitting on these thrones it is describing the reality of Him assuming the place of authority.

It is not necessary talking about physical thrones, there is no record that David sat on a physical throne. He now reigns in dual fulfilment of every kingly demand made on Him - as God and man. Scripture shows us that the Pharisees (with their hyper-literalist thinking) struggled with the duality of His nature and kingship.

Paul


Even if there is no particular chair referenced as David's throne, he was no less king of Israel and sitting on the throne of a king. I am not sure how the Pharisees being hyperliteralist was the problem, their problem was an incorrect understanding of all their own prophecies. Not that they were wrong about their promised Messiah ruling over Israel, but they were not literal enough and with understanding enough to see how literally He would come and die first. Calling them hyper-literal gives no support to your argument because they literally missed that He would literally die and literally be resurrected and that He would literally be the Son of God. They were not hyper literal, they were hyper interpret the way they wanted it to be bogging the people down with the traditions of what they wanted.

Clifton
Feb 28th 2008, 12:49 AM
Of course I do.

Then why did you rework the text to read a future tense?:hmm:

Are you aware that in doing so, that it changes the Greek words underlying the English?


Are you familiar with the concept of Scripture interpreting Scripture?No, after almost 36 years, you would think I know that!:lol: I think I conveyed you in my last post to you, `being acquainted with the Greek/Hebrew dramatically decreases "private interpretations"'. But perhaps I yet owe you an apology? I just went on The NeXt Bible website and noted various Bibles Versions, like NSRV and NIV, saying "or you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." - and yet, on the very same page at the bottom providing an interlinear that shows that "will" is unjustfied, even for the very "notes" they supply. I even checked the morphological code: It is {V-PNI-3S}, which expands into VERB-PRESENT * Middle or Passive Deponent * INDICATIVE - 3rd PERSON SINGULAR.

I forgot (and I read about this years ago) that different Bible versions are at odds each other - IOW, John Doe can express a verse correctly to Jane Doe with a different Bible with a different reading, and Jane Doe does not understand why John is saying what he is saying. I think it is best to quote the texts of the verses being referred to (something discouraged back in the BBS Network Conference days), so we can try to understand where a person is coming from. You maybe got thrown off by one or more of these Bibles;

When learning Greek, we are cautioned about some Bible that took some liberties to render verses in ways they should have not have done, and was given examples of some of them, and other Bibles which rendered the example verse correctly. Same thing in the Greek Dictionary - bad rendering versus a better reading. We are not taught to toss English Bibles out, but when it doubt, or to get the better shadings of the Greek, to check the Greek.


Why shouldn't we associate 2 Peter 3:10-13 with 1 Thess 5:1-6? Are you trying to say that 1 Thess 5:1-6 is not speaking of the future?Christ is always "coming" (see my previous post to you for the example, "I go to school", which is a CONTINUOUS process). From what I see of your reference, that is Christ coming to take a person from their life on Earth, and they are to always be ready even if they feel things are far out and groovy:). But I could give the Greek of the context further, researching each Greek word individually, but since 2 Thessalonians was written to "correct" the misunderstanding in 1 Thessalonians, well, I have to ask myself, will there be a point to doing that? 1 Thessalonians seems a "back-reference" work. The 2 Books should be read chapter to chapter consecutively.

Being acquainted with the Greek/Hebrew dramatically decreases "private interpretations". The tools and resources are out there in re of my statements... I'm just passing along what you can easily access (Bible Software, Grammar Books, Interlinears, Dictionaries, etc.) If you do not have Bible Software, I can refer you to a link to a FREE one that has been in use since the 1980's ... FOR FURTHER INFO, PLEASE SEE MY PREVIOUS POST IN THIS THREAD.


Stop right there. You have bought into the lie. There were both amillennialists and chiliasts (what we now call historic premillennialists) even before that time. Do a little more research and you will see that.Oh mercy my dear friend, I've been researching for decades - I've been on disability for a long time, and have time to devote to research. I have tons of Early Writings... can you please "correct" me by providing at least one reference??? I have yet to see anything of amillennialism until the Alexandria School taught it. They are also referred to as nuncmillennialists. What I have seen is of Irenaeus, which spoke to people whom spoke to the Seer of Revelation face to face;

Amillennialism came about later because they thought the earlier "church" was in error in regards to the so-called "millennium", thus, sought to "correct" the doctrine.


Who said that Isaiah 65:20-25 was fulfilled? That's my point - it hasn't!


What you should notice, though, is that Isaiah 65:19-20 says there will be no more weeping and crying and yet the child shall die at 100 years old? Won't people mourn death anymore at that time? Think about it. If someone is 100, they are not a child. That right there should tell you the verse is not meant to be read literally. Consider the possibility that Isaiah 65:20 is using symbolic and hyperbolic language that represents eternity when "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev 21:4).I'm familiar with Hebrew Idioms and symbolics - you overlook the rest of the verses after v.20. If It was was "symbolic and hyperbolic language" as you suggest, it was a waste of writing to dash hopes, and not necessary. Also, the English word "death" has at least TWO Hebrews underlying it. In this case, "death" may not mean the same thing as we know it now - could be a transformation or the like.

Revelation 21:4 is not related to Isaiah 65... Revelation 21:4 refers to AFTER the so-called Millennium and for the newer and bigger Earth (not this one we are on now). I wish to provide you a better sequence of where Revelation 21:4 is at, but this post already has much text in it now. In short, it is in the order of 21:5a.4d.5b.1-4abc 22:3-5. "The new heaven, the new earth, and the New Jerusalem. The faithful reign as kings for ever and ever,"
This part comes RIGHT AFTER the part I quoted the other user here, "20:11.13.12.14.15."

Take Care.

John146
Feb 28th 2008, 01:20 AM
Then why did you rework the text to read a future tense?:hmm:

Okay, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thess 5:1-6 is not speaking of the future day of the Lord, then show me how sudden destruction came upon people back then and how the day of the Lord came like a thief in the night back then.



I just went on The NeXt Bible website and noted various Bibles Versions, like NSRV and NIV, saying "or you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." - and yet, on the very same page at the bottom providing an interlinear that shows that "will" is unjustfied, even for the very "notes" they supply. I even checked the morphological code: It is {V-PNI-3S}, which expands into VERB-PRESENT * Middle or Passive Deponent * INDICATIVE - 3rd PERSON SINGULAR.Okay, then do you also not think that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is future? Because 1 Thess 5:1-6 is a continuation of his thought from that passage.



Christ is always "coming" (see my previous post to you for the example, "I go to school", which is a CONTINUOUS process). From what I see of your reference, that is Christ coming to take a person from their life on Earth, and they are to always be ready even if they feel things are far out and groovy:). But I could give the Greek of the context further, researching each Greek word individually, but since 2 Thessalonians was written to "correct" the misunderstanding in 1 Thessalonians, well, I have to ask myself, will there be a point to doing that? 1 Thessalonians seems a "back-reference" work. The 2 Books should be read chapter to chapter consecutively.If you think that Christ is speaking of coming to take a person from their life on Earth then you are missing the context that is established in the previous chapter, which speaks about Christ coming from heaven and having His own resurrected and caught up with those who are alive and remain to meet Him in the air. That is what happens to believers when He comes again. Then in chapter 5 he covers what happens to unbelievers (sudden destruction), which he talks about again in 2 Thess 1:7-10.



Being acquainted with the Greek/Hebrew dramatically decreases "private interpretations". The tools and resources are out there in re of my statements... I'm just passing along what you can easily access (Bible Software, Grammar Books, Interlinears, Dictionaries, etc.) If you do not have Bible Software, I can refer you to a link to a FREE one that has been in use since the 1980's ... FOR FURTHER INFO, PLEASE SEE MY PREVIOUS POST IN THIS THREAD.Who told you that I do not already make use of those tools? I do. I don't claim to know Hebrew and Greek real well, but even if I did, I wouldn't feel the need to tell people that in every post. I use Hebrew and Greek Interlinears, Bible dictionaries and Bible software frequently, my friend, so don't act like you have all the answers just because you think you have Hebrew and Greek mastered. One thing we need regardless of our level of understanding of Hebrew and Greek is spiritual discernment, but I don't ever see you saying anything about that. I see you touting your Hebrew and Greek knowledge often, though.



Oh mercy my dear friend, I've been researching for decades - I've been on disability for a long time, and have time to devote to research. I have tons of Early Writings... can you please "correct" me by providing at least one reference??? I have yet to see anything of amillennialism until the Alexandria School taught it. They are also referred to as nuncmillennialists. What I have seen is of Irenaeus, which spoke to people whom spoke to the Seer of Revelation face to face;You can find references at the link that Paul (wpm) gave you earlier. Once you click the link go to the thread where it says "ECF's were definitely NOT Premil". There's too much there to paste here.



Amillennialism came about later because they thought the earlier "church" was in error in regards to the so-called "millennium", thus, sought to "correct" the doctrine.Your opinion but it seems you didn't do enough research on this.



That's my point - it hasn't! Of course it hasn't because the new heavens and new earth which Peter said we are looking forward to (2 Peter 3:13) hasn't appeared yet.



I'm familiar with Hebrew Idioms and symbolics - you overlook the rest of the verses after v.20. If It was was "symbolic and hyperbolic language" as you suggest, it was a waste of writing to dash hopes, and not necessary. Also, the English word "death" has at least TWO Hebrews underlying it. In this case, "death" may not mean the same thing as we know it now - could be a transformation or the like.

Revelation 21:4 is not related to Isaiah 65... Revelation 21:4 refers to AFTER the so-called Millennium and for the newer and bigger Earth (not this one we are on now). I wish to provide you a better sequence of where Revelation 21:4 is at, but this post already has much text in it now. In short, it is in the order of 21:5a.4d.5b.1-4abc 22:3-5. "The new heaven, the new earth, and the New Jerusalem. The faithful reign as kings for ever and ever,"
This part comes RIGHT AFTER the part I quoted the other user here, "20:11.13.12.14.15."Sorry, but I'm not buying this two new heavens and two new earths theory. Both Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 say there will be no more weeping and crying at that time. If there was death, then how could there not be any crying? I just think you are missing the symbolism contained in Isaiah 65 so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Eric

Clifton
Feb 28th 2008, 02:27 AM
I suggest you check out this info that counteracts your thoughts on the ECF's"


Paul

Thanks for the link - I read it all - just because I do not concur with some things does not mean I ignore them, because afterall, it may cause to me to progress further ;) - I have seen "new" words with "millennism" in the various articles - not quite sure I understand midmillennism

I see that David Taylor was there and some other names on this board.

On the web page of the link you provided, "Doc Trin" references:
[John Nelson] Darby/
Margaret Macdonald/
[Edward] Irving [of the Irvingites]/
[Cyprus I.] Scofield

I filled out the remaining parts between square brackets.

Margaret Macdonald (of Scotland) planted a tree and caused a forest of forests. It is bizarre that she is little known, yet, she is at the starting point of a lot religions, and even religions within religions, and created a lot of wild "eshatology" views, then those views were expanded, changed, added to, subtracted from, etc.;

From her came the ideas for Darby (BTW, I have the Darby Bible) and Edward Irving. Cyprus I. Scofield innovated upon Darby (that is the one behind those "Scofield reference" Bibles), I have his notes in my Online Bible software. Macdonald has flooded our protestant market. I study works before her time and get my head into the early centuries (but stick my head in the present time in re of newer discoveries) - at times, that has raised "curiosity" with one or more admins/facilatators here, "is he of a different breed or what?" :)

If you are familiar with people like Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe (which BTW, was confronted by the VW Bible transaltor, which is noted on the Web Page I first referenced to you), they are MUCH in debt to Margaret MacDonald.

I am not influenced by any of them, past or present - but was in the earlier days of my Christianity.:( I conversed with Darbyians in the USENET a few years ago on Eschatology issues, and told them about MacDonald, Darby, Irving, and Scofield;

As for ECFs, bear in mind that the word "1000" pertaining to the so-called millennium is not used in the Hebrew Scriptures, which was the main study of ECFs (except Marcion). Justyn Martyr used the word "1000" in relation to the time referred to as being in Isaiah, but this is not true. I have a English translation of the DSS Isaiah as well.

The Book Of Revelation was not an accepted book in all circles, and this happened throughout many years in places. As I recall, I remember that when it came between The Book Of Revelation and the Apocalypse of Peter, the latter was preferred to be in a 'canon';

From my exegetical studies, John "The Seer" (of The Book Of Revelation) died before he got his work together and in proper order, and it was left into the hands of one of his servants, an 'editor', a celibate arch-heretic (but probably an unknowling one), whom clumsily put the text together, adding text, and dislodging some text (there is at least one part lost to us), but he was better at Greek than his master was;

thus, ECFs, and so on never got the proper order of things, they got interpolations, and so on that would have effected their thinking and writings - though, a redaction attempt was made not too many centuries later by Victorius of Petteau. The letters to the 7 assemblies are pretty much in good shape.

But to summarize, not all ECFs use the term "1000", and perhaps that is why Mr. Taylor had some difficulties in his research. But the posts are right in what they convey, that much of the "pre-millennium" positions appear to be 19th Century foundations, and probably from the above mentioned names (Scofield, etc.). But I do beg to differ with Satan being chained for a period of time, because that part of Revelation is a valid writing of The Seer.

In Book V of Irenaeus' Against Heresies,
Chap. XXXV. — He Contends That These Testimonies Already Alleged Cannot Be Understood Allegorically of Celestial Blessings, but That They Shall Have Their Fulfilment After the Coming of Antichrist, and the Resurrection, in the Terrestrial Jerusalem. To the Former Prophecies He Subjoins Others Drawn from Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Apocalypse of John,
Irenaeus' does not use the word 1000 for the period. So Mr. Taylor, me, and others have to stumble across these texts by chance and just note them for futher reference. "Word/Phrase" searches are limited to such texts. Irenaeus alludes to Revelation, Exodus, Isaiah, and more;

He continues on in (the same book, V), "Chap. XXXVI. — Men Shall Be Actually Raised: The World Shall Not Be Annihilated; but There Shall Be Various Mansions for the Saints, According to the Rank Allotted to Each Individual. All Things Shall Be Subject to God the Father, and so Shall He Be All in All."

Perhaps I shall read it again. I remember being very fascinated by those 2 chapters a few years ago.

Irenaeus seems to really had a fascination with the word "aeon" :)

Clifton
Feb 28th 2008, 05:51 PM
Okay, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thess 5:1-6 is not speaking of the future day of the Lord, then show me how sudden destruction came upon people back then and how the day of the Lord came like a thief in the night back then.
Who said it all had to be “back then” and limited to “just them”? Looks let at the word “destruction”:

- - -
3639 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3639) ολεθρος olethros pronounced ol’-eth-ros
from a primary ollumi (to destroy, a prolonged form); TDNT-5:168,681; n m
AV-destruction 4; 4
1) ruin, destroy, death
1a) for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed
- - -

You think this has never happened today, or in the past? :hmm:


Because 1 Thess 5:1-6 is a continuation of his thought from that passage. And you “determined” this how? Do you feel the ‘later’ supplied Chapter division and paragraph markers are not correct here? Actually, 1 Thess 5:1-5 is the “paragraphed” context.


Okay, then do you also not think that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is future? No, it is future. Parousia is in the context, and its place there with the context and the verbs shows it to be future:

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Thessalonians&chapter=4&verse=15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the ones living, the ones being left to the Arrival of the Lord, by no means shall precede the ones having fallen asleep {fig., who have died}. (ALT)

Hey, as for 1 Thessalonians 5:2, I conveyed that other translations have the future helping verb “will” there, and this is shown in the translations at The NeXt Bible website have this, EVEN the “NET” Bible which is related to this site, and I also mentioned the footnotes at the bottom of the page (which are attached to the NET Bible verses) conveys a future spin on it – so I am not “hiding” from anything – but the note is designated as “sn”, which for NET means:
Study Note-includes comments about historical or cultural background, explanation of obscure phrases or brief discussions of context, discussions of the theological point made by the biblical author, cross references and references to Old Testament quotations or allusions in the New Testament, or other miscellaneous information helpful to the modern reader.See for yourself, but when and if you or any other readers takes a look, please go to the KJV interlinear, and when you put your mouse cursor over the word “cometh”, you will see other blocks highlighted in yellow in the Greek rendering and the NET [draft] ITL Rendering blocks. Click on the (5736) link. It is at:

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Thessalonians&chapter=5&verse=2

My Greek Dictionary (WDNT) shares, in part or whole, your gleanings for 1Thess 5:2 with you … could be a typing error or someone else’s view :P Really, WDNT (like WNT) is brought to us by Spiros Zodhiates and AMG International, thus, it a group effort, plus is over 1500 pages long is subject to typos (but that is probably really not the case here);

I read about 3 columns (at least) on the issue of the misunderstanding of “some” (generic term for groups, etc.) that was totally “unjustified”, but then, in the definition of another word, pages down the book, enforced that “misunderstanding”. They have updated the publication anyway – mine is 1992;

WNT also shares, in part or whole, your gleanings for 1Thess 5:2 with you. The issue with me, is that it is in the PRESENT TENSE, and further enforces the time element as the primary, the INDICATIVE MOOD. What’s the point of having over 30 conjugations of a Greek Word for about 4 English words/phrases (e.g. I CAME, I WILL COME, etc.), if we can change it. Sounds like “tradition” has a play here.


If you think that Christ is speaking of coming to take a person from their life on Earth then you are missing the context that is established in the previous chapter, How is it that you determined that the context of 1 Thess. 5:1-5 was “established” in the previous chapter?

Perhaps I am “including” something in the context that you are not? BTW, παρουσια is not in 1 Thess. 5:1-5, but does appear in v.23 of the same chapter;

let me reiterate, don’t assume at the mere presence of the English words “com*” that it always refers to the so-called Second Advent. “Advent” is a better word, because as the Greek Dictionary (which is also exegetical) states for παρουσια in the last sentence of Part (D) of Section (II):

“Thus the coming of the Lord or His parousia consists of several comings which are in reality stages of a continuous process.”


which speaks about Christ coming from heaven and having His own resurrected and caught up with those who are alive and remain to meet Him in the air. That is what happens to believers when He comes again. Then in chapter 5 he covers what happens to unbelievers (sudden destruction), which he talks about again in 2 Thess 1:7-10.Paul wrote the 2nd letter to the Thessalonians as a follow-up to some misunderstandings in his first letter – perhaps to correct his previous grammar? :)

All of which you speak does not change the fact that “ερχεται”, as opposed to something like ελευσεται for it’s compatible form, instead appears in 1 Thess. 5:2;

In Revelation, in the letters to the assemblies, there are two or more “warnings”, like “IF you do not repent, I will come upon you with quickness (or, “SUDDENNESS”), and…” (# Re 2:5,16 3:3)

BTW, "The day of the Lord" is a "time table."

Here’s the compromise for 1Thes 5:1-5… since “ερχεται” is a Present Tense in the Indicative Mood, and is continuous (and/or repetitive), it can include all time from the resurrection of Christ up to the time of turmoil, etc., when Christ seizes the saints, dead and alive…


Did you just use God's name in vain or am I imagining things?I did not – it is a mode of thanks that I was able to use the COPY AND PASTE feature of Microsoft Windows.
Eye too bee ey pore tiepist:)

I’ll be back :P

IBWatching
Feb 28th 2008, 11:17 PM
...In the light of this, the questions I must ask are:

(1) How can the saints reproduce on the new earth (as Merton contends)? They will have to be perfect (being arrayed in new bodies) to even inherit it.
(2) How can sinful mortals even inherit the new earth in their corrupt state?
(3) On what grounds do they enter the millennial kingdom?
(4) Who are Gog and Magog in the Premil paradigm?

Paul

A1. The people (still carnate and capable of reproduction) left after the tribulation period are both Jew and gentile, having faith and not having faith. Most people miss the connection between the separation judgments Jesus described in Matthew 13 (Wheat/tares; dragnet), yet Jesus clearly stated they will be at the same end of the age as He was talking about in Matthew 24. He even describes how they will work in Matt 24:38-41. They are taken away in death. These separation judgments continue, with those at the Wedding Feast (10 Virgins; people with wrong clothes) and on to the sheep/goat separation judgments during the Millennium. No one who dies during the Millennium are Saved, as there remains no resurrection for the Righteous.

A2. They can't. You are confusing the start of the Millennium with the end.

A3. Faith. It is the oil the 5 foolish virgins lack and the right clothes some at the Wedding feast lack. Also, the difference between the sheep and the goats. (see Luke 18:8)

A4. The gog/magog battle in Revelation is not that of Ezekiel. Different target, different motive, different means by which God destroys them, and more nations, including the gog/magog ones from Ezekiel. Satan will have been "out of the loop" for 1,000 years. Meanwhile, Jesus will have destroyed any physical enemies during the tribulation period, as well as broken down and eliminated spiritual enemies during the Millennium. That's why that time is described as a "short while". Satan won't have much left to work with.

wpm
Feb 29th 2008, 03:41 AM
IBWatching

Thanks for your replies.


A1. The people (still carnate and capable of reproduction) left after the tribulation period are both Jew and gentile, having faith and not having faith. Most people miss the connection between the separation judgments Jesus described in Matthew 13 (Wheat/tares; dragnet), yet Jesus clearly stated they will be at the same end of the age as He was talking about in Matthew 24. He even describes how they will work in Matt 24:38-41. They are taken away in death. These separation judgments continue, with those at the Wedding Feast (10 Virgins; people with wrong clothes) and on to the sheep/goat separation judgments during the Millennium. No one who dies during the Millennium are Saved, as there remains no resurrection for the Righteous.

I though those of faith made the catching away when Christ came and enjoyed glorification, not sentenced to a thousand yrs in a mortal sinful body?


A2. They can't. You are confusing the start of the Millennium with the end.

But I though Premils believed the millennium would consist of countless sinful rebels - an amount that grow to the sand of the sea.


A3. Faith. It is the oil the 5 foolish virgins lack and the right clothes some at the Wedding feast lack. Also, the difference between the sheep and the goats. (see Luke 18:8)

But if they had faith then they would be glorified.


A4. The gog/magog battle in Revelation is not that of Ezekiel. Different target, different motive, different means by which God destroys them, and more nations, including the gog/magog ones from Ezekiel. Satan will have been "out of the loop" for 1,000 years. Meanwhile, Jesus will have destroyed any physical enemies during the tribulation period, as well as broken down and eliminated spiritual enemies during the Millennium. That's why that time is described as a "short while". Satan won't have much left to work with.

How can there be 2 Gog and Magogs. Could it be they are speaking of the same company?

Paul

fellowservant
Feb 29th 2008, 06:21 AM
Just like to interject here a bit:)

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.


Above is one of Pauls figures of speach, some use this saying to put us in the new Jerusalem as of now.


Peter does this also below.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So we see that the apostles sometimes used figures of speach in their letters.


Its best to go by the book of revelation, as it is a revelation of their letters to the churches, and what the prophets spoke. Prophecy is not always what it seems, and it is sometimes not given, or should be taken word for word.

Remember John the baptist? it was hard for the followers of Chirst to see or believe that he was Elijah who was for to come. Why? because the prophecy of the coming of Elijah was somewhat different than what John did. When it comes to prophecy alway leave room for God to say, if you will except it, this is..

God bless

Clifton
Feb 29th 2008, 02:54 PM
Who told you that I do not already make use of those tools? I do.
You misinterpret my statement and changed the context. I express that what I say (other than IMOs), can be checked by tools because they are easily accessible these days than in the past history. If do use those tools, then why is it that when I mentioned ερχεται <2064> being a “present tense – indicative mood”, did you not check that? e.g.

1 Thess 5:2 (RWebster) For <1063> yourselves <846> know <1492> (5758) perfectly <199> that <3754> the day <2250> of the Lord <2962> so <3779> cometh <2064> (5736) as <5613> a thief <2812> in <1722> the night <3571>.

i.e. by clicking in 5736?

So you see my point? You have tools that you can include in your discussions, and since most people have access to what you convey, we can check our resources.


I don't claim to know Hebrew and Greek real well, There is no need to – just clicking on (5736) gives the verb parsing in English.


but even if I did, I wouldn't feel the need to tell people that in every post. Well that is nice – there are several of us here that don’t do that either and we wouldn’t want you making us look bad :P


I use Hebrew and Greek Interlinears, Bible dictionaries and Bible software frequently, my friend, so don't act like you have all the answers just because you think you have Hebrew and Greek mastered. Your remarks such as this and the “arrogant” remark in your previous post shows you do not interpretate people very well.:( My posts in this very thread (and others as well) point out that I do not have “all” the answers, (e.g such as the “1000” word in 2 Pe 3:8; Rev 20), and my statement was “being acquainted with the Greek/Hebrew dramatically decreases private interpretations” … “decreases” - not “abolishes”.


One thing we need regardless of our level of understanding of Hebrew and Greek is spiritual discernment, but I don't ever see you saying anything about that. I see you touting your Hebrew and Greek knowledge often, though. Oh, I missed touting that I am an English Grammarian too, didn’t I? Thanks for pointing that out! :D There is a reason why I do not use the term “spiritual discernment” in cases like this… for decades I am aware of numerous amounts of folks claiming “spiritual discernment”, but others lacking the same, though they too, also lay the claim “spiritual discernment” as well. Bottom Line: Many folks whom lay such claims all oppose each other, claiming the other has not “spiritual discernment” in Biblical Reading;

I have found that it is just those that have “views” that do no line up with scriptures, whether in English, or the underlying languages, spout the same things, as if, “spiritual discernment” permits a ‘rewritten word’ (re: “corrects” the Hebrew/Greek);

We have to point out our acquaintance with the underlying languages for those whom attempt to “snowball us” to save their breath, as well as for those eager to learn and have ears; I was made aware years ago that people with aberrant views and/or just in the process of learning are going to have “issues” with people like us.


You can find references at the link that Paul (wpm) gave you earlier. Once you click the link go to the thread where it says "ECF's were definitely NOT Premil". There's too much there to paste here. I read ALL of that web page, and I see nothing that relates to my positions except one thing - That thread relates to “pre-millennialists” views from the 19th Century conclusions (if not outright inventions) and onward. I have yet to comment on one more thing in that thread;

Do you seriously believe no one believed that the so-called Millennium period was “yet to come”, before Margaret MacDonald of Scotland??? Does your “biblical tools” include John Gill’s Expository of the 1700’s, and work comprising of over 40 years? If so, please search the expository for “millennium” and you should see a result of about 32 occurrences, and you will see several (maybe even MOST) of them refer to the so-called Millennium.


Your opinion but it seems you didn't do enough research on this. Oh, not an “opinion”, but “learned research” – if you would like to “extend” my research, then by all means, show me where any group prior to the school of Alexandria which believed that they were “presently” in the so-called Millennium. I will be more than happy to receive your reference(s) and will look at them.

Ya know, I am really enjoying this conversing, but I really hate those “mill” words because I have a hard time spelling them – if this is to continue, I’m going to have to change the term, to say, “zionism” , “zion” period etc. :idea:


Of course it hasn't because the new heavens and new earth which Peter said we are looking forward to (2 Peter 3:13) hasn't appeared yet. Two more are yet to come… a transformation of the current (which will consist of martyrs and survivors), and finally, that which will have to be bigger to withstand and hold the eternal New Jerusalem, and the saints of the past, and be totally new - then, that is all.


Sorry, but I'm not buying this two new heavens and two new earths theory.
Don’t follow you here.


Both Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 say there will be no more weeping and crying at that time.
“Those times” – you are talking about an age and comparing it with the Eternal, which are not the same. For those quite acquainted with all of Isaiah and its supporting references, they know that it is a transformation of the current Earth. This is not the “After life” part, where a totally new and different Earth will be.


If there was death, then how could there not be any crying?
We should not underestimate what the Lord can do. We don’t know what “form” of death is meant here. It could be more like a transformation. Adam and Eve “died” but lived on the Earth and then physically “died” – this is the state which the Earth is to be transformed to for the “Zion” period. People lived long lives back then, but like Adam and Eve, where capable of sinning. Enoch was “translated” (or “transposed” according to one meaning of the Hebrew word);

The Lord can take away the internal part(s) of us that would cause us to “weep or scream” (or “cry” as you put it). Even today, there are those that do not weep at the death of a loved one (though they be grieved on the inside).


I just think you are missing the symbolism contained in Isaiah 65 so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
I do not know if you know it, but within chapters 40-66 (last of all at Isa 65:12, cf., Isa 66:4), the prophet repeats entire passages (or abridges) from the earlier portions of his prophecies almost word for word. (Cp. Isaiah 65:25 and 11:6-9);

It is interesting about folks whom seek “symbolism” at places and wails at others about taking things “literally”, then yet, when it fits, they will take a little excerpt (e.g. Isa 65:17) surrounded by what they deem as “symbolic”, and see it literally. And yet, at all cost, they avoid explanations and details of what they “view” as symbolic.

Isa 11:6 And the wolf shall feed with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the young calf and bull and lion shall feed together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the ox and bear shall feed together; and their young shall be together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And an infant shall put his hand into the holes of asps, and on the nest of young asps.
Isa 11:9 And they shall not be hurt, nor shall they be able to destroy anyone on My holy mountain; for the whole world is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as much water covers the seas.

The Complete Apostles' Bible


Blessings.

wpm
Feb 29th 2008, 04:04 PM
Just like to interject here a bit:)

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.


Above is one of Pauls figures of speach, some use this saying to put us in the new Jerusalem as of now.


Peter does this also below.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So we see that the apostles sometimes used figures of speach in their letters.


Its best to go by the book of revelation, as it is a revelation of their letters to the churches, and what the prophets spoke. Prophecy is not always what it seems, and it is sometimes not given, or should be taken word for word.

Remember John the baptist? it was hard for the followers of Chirst to see or believe that he was Elijah who was for to come. Why? because the prophecy of the coming of Elijah was somewhat different than what John did. When it comes to prophecy alway leave room for God to say, if you will except it, this is..

God bless

You seem to be spiritualising literal language and literalising spiritual/symbolic language. Rev is the most symbolic book in the Bible.

Paul

the rookie
Feb 29th 2008, 04:31 PM
You seem to be spiritualising literal language and literalising spiritual/symbolic language. Rev is the most symbolic book in the Bible.

Paul

So what's the hermeneutic or interpretive mode that can help one navigate this difficulty?

I have found that many that claim a consistent hermeneutic are often content to make the book work with their theological system. I would be interested in hearing how, in particular, one can know when to literalize and when to spiritualize.

In my opinion, the book is fairly clear when and how to deal with its symbols; elsewhere the details of the narrative help us navigate when thre are literal events taking place. But I could be oversimplifying - I'm curious about your perspective on this.

Mograce2U
Feb 29th 2008, 05:26 PM
So what's the hermeneutic or interpretive mode that can help one navigate this difficulty?

I have found that many that claim a consistent hermeneutic are often content to make the book work with their theological system. I would be interested in hearing how, in particular, one can know when to literalize and when to spiritualize.

In my opinion, the book is fairly clear when and how to deal with its symbols; elsewhere the details of the narrative help us navigate when thre are literal events taking place. But I could be oversimplifying - I'm curious about your perspective on this.My opinion is that they must be done together. ;) The earthly and the spiritual do occur in tangent: angels fight in the heavenly realm while men fight upon the earth. The earthly type has a spiritual antitype, so finding where the two meet is what we must discover. If in the OT God's coming in the clouds was a symbol for His working of judgment in the earth, then it ought to follow suit that the ascended Jesus' coming in the clouds is a similar picture. The new heavens and earth is another one - which Noah's flood brought in actuality in his day. The antitype has to do with seeing the change in law that occurred at the cross as a new Rulership came into being. Elijah's reappearance and John the Baptist is another one. I don't think there is any formal hermeneutic that can guide us other than not to undo the type by the antitype we discover.

the rookie
Feb 29th 2008, 05:48 PM
My opinion is that they must be done together. ;) The earthly and the spiritual do occur in tangent: angels fight in the heavenly realm while men fight upon the earth. The earthly type has a spiritual antitype, so finding where the two meet is what we must discover. If in the OT God's coming in the clouds was a symbol for His working of judgment in the earth, then it ought to follow suit that the ascended Jesus' coming in the clouds is a similar picture. The new heavens and earth is another one - which Noah's flood brought in actuality in his day. The antitype has to do with seeing the change in law that occurred at the cross as a new Rulership came into being. Elijah's reappearance and John the Baptist is another one. I don't think there is any formal hermeneutic that can guide us other than not to undo the type by the antitype we discover.

Wouldn't searching for the type / antitype as a means of detecting discernible patterns to aid in the interpretation of the passages be a formal hermeneutic?

Wouldn't not having a formal hermeneutic make orthodoxy or agreement related to interpretation impossible?

IBWatching
Feb 29th 2008, 06:08 PM
...I though those of faith made the catching away when Christ came and enjoyed glorification, not sentenced to a thousand yrs in a mortal sinful body?

What do you percieve to be the "catching away"? Are you talking abut the one time gathering/changing of the Church in the air by Jesus Christ? If so, that takes place before the Day of the Lord and tribulation period start.


But I though Premils believed the millennium would consist of countless sinful rebels - an amount that grow to the sand of the sea.

Not likely. Jesus will be reigning from Jerusalem, telling everyone on earth how to live. Anyone who disobeys will be taken away in death...immediately. Will they be capable of sin? Yes. Will they want to with satan locked away and seeing how Jesus deals with those who do? Again, not likely.


But if they had faith then they would be glorified.

Don't you have faith now? Are you Glorified right now? Each happens in the order God has set.


How can there be 2 Gog and Magogs. Could it be they are speaking of the same company?

I believe that the reference to it in Rev 20 is to the presence of those nations which were in the earlier battle from Ezekiel. I explained why the6y aren't the same battle in my post above.

Mograce2U
Feb 29th 2008, 07:54 PM
Wouldn't searching for the type / antitype as a means of detecting discernible patterns to aid in the interpretation of the passages be a formal hermeneutic?

Wouldn't not having a formal hermeneutic make orthodoxy or agreement related to interpretation impossible?Do you mean other than whereby scripture interprets scripture? Because if you mean where men gather together to make the rules that we are to then follow, I would have to disagree. Our rule is Christ Himself, so we are not without a law to follow - if He is our example and Who we are seeking to find, that is. No other rule can supplant the motive of the man, no matter how well he follows it.

Wouldn't it be nice if we just had some rigid law to guide us...?

the rookie
Feb 29th 2008, 08:33 PM
Do you mean other than whereby scripture interprets scripture? Because if you mean where men gather together to make the rules that we are to then follow, I would have to disagree. Our rule is Christ Himself, so we are not without a law to follow - if He is our example and Who we are seeking to find, that is. No other rule can supplant the motive of the man, no matter how well he follows it.

Wouldn't it be nice if we just had some rigid law to guide us...?

I suppose that's one approach to take on interpreting scripture...

What I didn't mean was an arbitrary gathering such as you described, nor was I speaking of a "rigid law", I was speaking more in terms of a grammatical / historical approach to attempt to really understand what the intent of the writers were in a manner that helps us gain understanding together.

I think, in many ways, that the book of Revelation is a stumbling block to the "historical" part of that approach, as it's primary application seems to come related to the end of the age - that's why I asked Paul the question.

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 08:59 PM
Wouldn't searching for the type / antitype as a means of detecting discernible patterns to aid in the interpretation of the passages be a formal hermeneutic?

Wouldn't not having a formal hermeneutic make orthodoxy or agreement related to interpretation impossible?

We shouldn't rely solely on formal hermeneutics, but also on spiritual discernment (1 Cor 2:13-14). I see books like Revelation, Daniel and Isaiah as being similar to the parables of Jesus in that they are intended to only be understood by believers with the Spirit's help, along with using good hermeneutics like using Scripture to interpret Scripture (finding the definition of beasts in Daniel to aid our understanding of the beasts in Revelation, for example).

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 09:11 PM
What do you percieve to be the "catching away"? Are you talking abut the one time gathering/changing of the Church in the air by Jesus Christ? If so, that takes place before the Day of the Lord and tribulation period start.
Where is the Scripture that says that? Please give me specific Scripture that says what you're saying, not bits and pieces here and there that you squash together.


Not likely. Jesus will be reigning from Jerusalem, telling everyone on earth how to live.
Um, He came once already telling everyone how they should live and most didn't listen to Him. Why would He do that again? Is He going to have a whip that He uses to whip people if they don't listen? I don't understand this belief that people have about Jesus reigning on earth the same way a mortal, earthly king would, by using intimidation to get people to do what He wants them to do.



Anyone who disobeys will be taken away in death...immediately. And it says this where?



Will they be capable of sin? Yes. Will they want to with satan locked away and seeing how Jesus deals with those who do? Again, not likely.What about all the verses that speak of people sinning as a result of their own lusts? Would Jesus being on earth take that away? What are you talking about when you speak of how Jesus "deals with those who do"? You're making Him out to be some dictator who cracks whips and makes threats in order to get people to do what He wants. That is not who Jesus is.

wpm
Feb 29th 2008, 09:44 PM
So what's the hermeneutic or interpretive mode that can help one navigate this difficulty?

I have found that many that claim a consistent hermeneutic are often content to make the book work with their theological system. I would be interested in hearing how, in particular, one can know when to literalize and when to spiritualize.

In my opinion, the book is fairly clear when and how to deal with its symbols; elsewhere the details of the narrative help us navigate when thre are literal events taking place. But I could be oversimplifying - I'm curious about your perspective on this.

Firstly, I think the context, location, and thrust of the passage gives us a real sense of what is literal and what is spiritual. Secondly, an awareness of the consistent teaching of Scripture on a matter is neccessary. Corroboration must be a fundamental tenet of any doctrine. Thirdly, we must interpret the difficult or obscure passages by the clear and explicit. Fourthly, one cannot approach Scripture with preconceptions of a doctrine or man made rules and regulations or it will colour our view of Scripture and any doctrine contained therein. We will end up forcing square pegs into round holes.

Paul

wpm
Feb 29th 2008, 09:55 PM
IBWatching


What do you percieve to be the "catching away"? Are you talking abut the one time gathering/changing of the Church in the air by Jesus Christ? If so, that takes place before the Day of the Lord and tribulation period start.

Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that you consider indicates (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a Coming of Christ?


Not likely. Jesus will be reigning from Jerusalem, telling everyone on earth how to live. Anyone who disobeys will be taken away in death...immediately. Will they be capable of sin? Yes. Will they want to with satan locked away and seeing how Jesus deals with those who do? Again, not likely.

I think it is total naivety to think that mortal creatures would last 24 hrs without sinning against God, unless everyone within your millennium are quasi-gods.


Don't you have faith now? Are you Glorified right now? Each happens in the order God has set.

Is not faith in Christ and His shed blood on Calvary man's only hope of salvation? Are you suggesting there is another way to be saved since Adam?



I believe that the reference to it in Rev 20 is to the presence of those nations which were in the earlier battle from Ezekiel. I explained why they aren't the same battle in my post above.

I think you voiced opinion but you never outlined a sound biblical reason.

Paul

ShirleyFord
Mar 1st 2008, 02:02 PM
Just like to interject here a bit:)

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.


Above is one of Pauls figures of speach, some use this saying to put us in the new Jerusalem as of now.

I believe that Paul makes it very clear that when God saves us, He literally places us in the heavenly kingdom of His dear Son spiritually:


Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


And we have the promise of entering physically the kingdom of Christ, the new Jerusalem, the holy city, the Mount of God, Mount Zion, at the Second Coming of Christ when He brings His kingdom with Him and sets it up on the new earth.


Shirley

fellowservant
Mar 1st 2008, 05:51 PM
I believe that Paul makes it very clear that when God saves us, He literally places us in the heavenly kingdom of His dear Son spiritually:


Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


And we have the promise of entering physically the kingdom of Christ, the new Jerusalem, the holy city, the Mount of God, Mount Zion, at the Second Coming of Christ when He brings His kingdom with Him and sets it up on the new earth.


Shirley

Hi ShirleyFord

I was refering to your last sentence when i said some put us in this kingdom as of now. They believe that your last sentence is fullfilled already. Takeing what Paul said, to and ultra fullfilment of what he said.

God bless

ShirleyFord
Mar 1st 2008, 06:12 PM
Hi ShirleyFord

I was refering to your last sentence when i said some put us in this kingdom as of now. They believe that your last sentence is fullfilled already. Takeing what Paul said, to and ultra fullfilment of what he said.

God bless

But my reply was to what you said here:


Originally Posted by fellowservant http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1556002#post1556002)
Just like to interject here a bit:)

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.


Above is one of Pauls figures of speach, some use this saying to put us in the new Jerusalem as of now.


But the writer of Hebrews in 12:22 says to the Church of Jesus Christ, "ye are come", present tense, to "mount Sion" "unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem", the kingdom of Christ.

This Scripture tells me that I, and every other person in Christ, a member of the true Church of our Lord Jesus Christ, are at this very moment in the kingdom of Christ spiritually while we are physically alive.

Do you agree?


Shirley

fellowservant
Mar 1st 2008, 07:56 PM
You seem to be spiritualising literal language and literalising spiritual/symbolic language. Rev is the most symbolic book in the Bible.

Paul

Daniel doesn't spritualise the coming man of sin. Paul doesnt do it either, niether does Christ. At the return of Christ the book of revelation states that he will make war against the armys of the beast of revelation. Daniel also confirms this. I don't see the earth being burned up at the return of Christ. But i do see him warring against an army of this earth. When Peter made that statement, in the context, he was likely refering to the final Judgement of this world. As he mentions a new heaven and new earth.

Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


The above scripture according to the book of revelation takes place just before the second ressurection. When God makes his final judgements, in order to make all things new.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


As you will notice in the book of revelation a lot of things happen before this great white throne judgement. Christ also returns before this final judgement, the first ressurection is before this as well.

The last few chapters of revelation, are the basics of the book.

Now heres a question, the below scriptures ive underlined, will they come to pass spirtually or literally?

Dan 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
Dan 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Not all of the symbolic passages of revelation that appear to be out of this world, will be out of this world. Some will come to pass almost as they are written. We are dealing with God here, and nothing is impossible with him.

God bless

ShirleyFord
Mar 1st 2008, 08:42 PM
Now heres a question, the below scriptures ive underlined, will they come to pass spirtually or literally?

Dan 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
Dan 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Not all of the symbolic passages of revelation that appear to be out of this world, will be out of this world. Some will come to pass almost as they are written. We are dealing with God here, not some fleshly minded Dr. Dolittle of scripture.

God bless

Daniel 4 was spoken by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar to Daniel (Belteshazzar) during the Babylonian Captivity of Israel concerning Nebuchadnezzar and his Babylonian kingdom and has nothing to do with Revelation or endtime prophecy.

1 Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.

2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.

3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

4 I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace:

5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me.

6 Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.

7 Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.

8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,

9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.

13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:

15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:

16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.

19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.


Daniel gives Nebuchadnezzar the interpretation of his dream in the following verses.

The tree represented Nebuchadnezzar.


20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;

21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:

22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:

25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

The stump of the tree roots:

26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

Nebuchadnezzar said that this prophecy came to pass in his day upon him and his kingdom just as God told him and Daniel prophecied:

28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.



Shirley

wpm
Mar 1st 2008, 09:20 PM
Daniel doesn't spritualise the coming man of sin. Paul doesnt do it either, niether does Christ. At the return of Christ the book of revelation states that he will make war against the armys of the beast of revelation. Daniel also confirms this. I don't see the earth being burned up at the return of Christ. But i do see him warring against an army of this earth. When Peter made that statement, in the context, he was likely refering to the final Judgement of this world. As he mentions a new heaven and new earth.

Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


The above scripture according to the book of revelation takes place just before the second ressurection. When God makes his final judgements, in order to make all things new.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


As you will notice in the book of revelation a lot of things happen before this great white throne judgement. Christ also returns before this final judgement, the first ressurection is before this as well.

The last few chapters of revelation, are the basics of the book.

Now heres a question, the below scriptures ive underlined, will they come to pass spirtually or literally?

Dan 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
Dan 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Not all of the symbolic passages of revelation that appear to be out of this world, will be out of this world. Some will come to pass almost as they are written. We are dealing with God here, not some fleshly minded Dr. Dolittle of scripture.

God bless

When is the day of the Lord?

What is its duration?

What occurs on it?

Paul

Clifton
Mar 1st 2008, 09:28 PM
But my reply was to what you said here:
But the writer of Hebrews in 12:22 says to the Church of Jesus Christ, "ye are come", present tense, to "mount Sion" "unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem", the kingdom of Christ.

This Scripture tells me that I, and every other person in Christ, a member of the true Church of our Lord Jesus Christ, are at this very moment in the kingdom of Christ spiritually while we are physically alive.

Shirley

Actually, Shirley, that’s not the ‘present tense’ but the ‘Greek 2nd Perfect Tense’ (προσεληλυθατε); that's why there are renderings such as “ye ARE come”, “you HAVE come”, “you HAVING come”, but even those renderings do not appear to bring the "προσ" prefix to εληλυθατε into account. ;)

This Verb Parsing can be confirmed at:

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Hebrews&chapter=12&verse=22

Go down the KJV Section, and under the phrase “ye are come”, click on (5754). For the Greek word, and pocket dictionary-like page, you can click <4334> under the phrase “ye are come”.

But you have drawn near to Mount Tsiyon and to the city of the living Elohim, to the heavenly Yerushalayim, to myriads of messengers, to the entire gathering and assembly of the first-born having been enrolled in heaven, and to Elohim the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:22-23 The Scriptures 1998+

Thus, we are not quite all the way there yet.

Info on Greek Verb Tenses can be accessed at:

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm#TENSE

Blessings.

fellowservant
Mar 1st 2008, 10:25 PM
Daniel 4 was spoken by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar to Daniel (Belteshazzar) during the Babylonian Captivity of Israel concerning Nebuchadnezzar and his Babylonian kingdom and has nothing to do with Revelation or endtime prophecy.

1 Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.

2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.

3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

4 I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace:

5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me.

6 Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.

7 Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.

8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,

9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.

13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:

15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:

16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.

19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.


Daniel gives Nebuchadnezzar the interpretation of his dream in the following verses.

The tree represented Nebuchadnezzar.


20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;

21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:

22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:

25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

The stump of the tree roots:

26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

Nebuchadnezzar said that this prophecy came to pass in his day upon him and his kingdom just as God told him and Daniel prophecied:

28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.



Shirley

I asked this question to wpm sister? as an example of a prophecy fullfilment , that came to pass almost as it was written. Some of the spiritual sayings of this prophecy, against Nebuchadnezzar, became literal.

God bless

fellowservant
Mar 1st 2008, 10:29 PM
But my reply was to what you said here:



But the writer of Hebrews in 12:22 says to the Church of Jesus Christ, "ye are come", present tense, to "mount Sion" "unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem", the kingdom of Christ.

This Scripture tells me that I, and every other person in Christ, a member of the true Church of our Lord Jesus Christ, are at this very moment in the kingdom of Christ spiritually while we are physically alive.

Do you agree?


Shirley

See Cliftons answer, as i agree with him.

God bless

fellowservant
Mar 1st 2008, 11:04 PM
When is the day of the Lord?

What is its duration?

What occurs on it?

Paul

1. The word says no one knows the day or the hour. But Christ told his deciples to look up when certain things begin to take place, because their redemption was drawing nigh. Luke 21:28 It also doesn't come as a thief in the night to the saints, or the ones who are looking for it.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


2. He will have an everlasting kingdom, according to Daniel. But God will be all in all.


3. Thats a lot of questions, but you haven't answered mine yet.


I see that this is just going to go round and round. I really dislike debate, not that there is to be none. I agree to disagree here, so ill back up a bit for now. But its nice to share views, brothers/ sisters.:D

God bless all

wpm
Mar 1st 2008, 11:18 PM
1. The word says no one knows the day or the hour. But Christ told his deciples to look up when certain things begin to take place, because their redemption was drawing nigh. Luke 21:28 It also doesn't come as a thief in the night to the saints, or the ones who are looking for it.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


2. He will have an everlasting kingdom, according to Daniel. But God will be all in all.


3. Thats a lot of questions, but you haven't answered mine yet.


I see that this is just going to go round and round. I really dislike debate, not that there is to be none. I agree to disagree here, so ill back up a bit for now. But its nice to share views, brothers/ sisters.:D

God bless all

If the DOTL is eternal then is the fiery destruction eternal commencing at the Coming of Christ? Scripture tells us that the DOTL is ushered in by the dissolving of the earth and the works that are therein by fire.

Paul

ShirleyFord
Mar 1st 2008, 11:56 PM
Actually, Shirley, that’s not the ‘present tense’ but the ‘Greek 2nd Perfect Tense’ (προσεληλυθατε); that's why there are renderings such as “ye ARE come”, “you HAVE come”, “you HAVING come”, but even those renderings do not appear to bring the "προσ" prefix to εληλυθατε into account. ;)

This Verb Parsing can be confirmed at:

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Hebrews&chapter=12&verse=22

Go down the KJV Section, and under the phrase “ye are come”, click on (5754). For the Greek word, and pocket dictionary-like page, you can click <4334> under the phrase “ye are come”.

But you have drawn near to Mount Tsiyon and to the city of the living Elohim, to the heavenly Yerushalayim, to myriads of messengers, to the entire gathering and assembly of the first-born having been enrolled in heaven, and to Elohim the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:22-23 The Scriptures 1998+

Thus, we are not quite all the way there yet.

Info on Greek Verb Tenses can be accessed at:

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm#TENSE

Blessings.

Hi Clifton,

I believe, based on what Paul and John wrote, that we true Christians are now spiritually all the way there in the kingdom of Christ which is now located in heaven.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Only when we receive our immortal, incorruptible bodies at the Second Coming of Christ will we be able to enter Christ's kingdom physically which he brings with Him from heaven and sets it up on the new earth.

According to 1 Corinthians 15, no mortal will be allowed in Christ's kingdom when He returns.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



Shirley

Clifton
Mar 2nd 2008, 02:51 AM
Hi Clifton,

I believe, based on what Paul and John wrote, that we true Christians are now spiritually all the way there in the kingdom of Christ which is now located in heaven.

Yep! ;) We are "spiritually" in place - the Hebrews verse quoted can mean that - "near/towards" + "drawn/came" (in English order "Drawn Near"), which refers to having been drawn near to the Metaphysical (in the afterlife). The spiritual position now is "being" near/towards that of the Metaphysical (if someone has a better word, I am all ears:)).

Maybe that is one reason Hebrews was one of the four books Martin Luther did not want as part of the canon for the protestants?:hmm: I forget what the third criteria was that he added for a book to be included - nonetheless, be reluctantly bowed to tradition.


Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Only when we receive our immortal, incorruptible bodies at the Second Coming of Christ will we be able to enter Christ's kingdom physically which he brings with Him from heaven and sets it up on the new earth.

According to 1 Corinthians 15, no mortal will be allowed in Christ's kingdom when He returns.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.You understand of course, that once we were "born from above" (John 3:3) that we inherit the "Kingdom Of God / Heaven" here - the Kingdom Of God (Matthew tends to instead use "Heaven") is here with, and, among and within you (cp. Luke 17:20-21 for one example, but I can provide more). Here, it is in its "imperfect state", but after all things are accomplished, and we are in the Eternal Heaven (having received our immortal, incorruptible bodies), will be its "perfect state."

Blessings.

quiet dove
Mar 2nd 2008, 03:38 AM
Daniel doesn't spritualise the coming man of sin. Paul doesnt do it either, niether does Christ. At the return of Christ the book of revelation states that he will make war against the armys of the beast of revelation. Daniel also confirms this. I don't see the earth being burned up at the return of Christ. But i do see him warring against an army of this earth.

I agree with this part of your post.

Which made me think of this question for those who see Rev 19 as speaking of the time when the earth is burned up and a new Heaven and Earth created, why call the birds to a feast? So He can burn up well fed, fat birds? Maybe fat birds burn better.

ShirleyFord
Mar 2nd 2008, 03:50 AM
Yep! ;) We are "spiritually" in place - the Hebrews verse quoted can mean that - "near/towards" + "drawn/came" (in English order "Drawn Near"), which refers to having been drawn near to the Metaphysical (in the afterlife). The spiritual position now is "being" near/towards that of the Metaphysical (if someone has a better word, I am all ears:)).

Maybe that is one reason Hebrews was one of the four books Martin Luther did not want as part of the canon for the protestants?:hmm: I forget what the third criteria was that he added for a book to be included - nonetheless, be reluctantly bowed to tradition.

You understand of course, that once we were "born from above" (John 3:3) that we inherit the "Kingdom Of God / Heaven" here - the Kingdom Of God (Matthew tends to instead use "Heaven") is here with, and, among and within you (cp. Luke 17:20-21 for one example, but I can provide more). Here, it is in its "imperfect state", but after all things are accomplished, and we are in the Eternal Heaven (having received our immortal, incorruptible bodies), will be its "perfect state."

Blessings.

Many cite the reference you gave in Luke 17, "the kingdom of God is within you" to mean that His kingdom is within us.

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees. Surely He didn't mean that His kingdom was in those who rejected Him.

Jesus was within the midst of the Pharisees; not within their bodies.


Jesus is literally in heaven today physically reigning over His literal heavenly kingdom. And all who are His are seated spiritually with Him.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:




Shirley

wpm
Mar 2nd 2008, 04:16 AM
I agree with this part of your post.

Which made me think of this question for those who see Rev 19 as speaking of the time when the earth is burned up and a new Heaven and Earth created, why call the birds to a feast? So He can burn up well fed, fat birds? Maybe fat birds burn better.

You should keep in mind, Revelation is a highly symbolic book.

The word for eagles (aetoi) is interestingly interpreted “angel” in Revelation 8:13. The fowls or birds seem to be a poignant symbol of the angels of God whose job it is to exercise un-merciless judgment on the wicked on that day.

Describing the nature and character of the eagle, Job 39:30 poignantly declares, “where the slain are, there is she.”

There seems good reason to believe that these fowls or birds are symbolic of the angels, which mete out justice upon the wicked on behalf of God destruction at the end of this age. They are clearly a heavenly host as, when they are bidden, they are found flying “in the midst of heaven.” Here we see the final destruction of the wicked.

Paul

Clifton
Mar 2nd 2008, 04:21 AM
Many cite the reference you gave in Luke 17, "the kingdom of God is within you" to mean that His kingdom is within us.

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Yes, I am aware that the Greek Eντος means "within" - it is a short study - it is also used in Matthew 23:26 and in LXX for Psalms 39:3, 109:22... As pointed out in my Greek Dictionary, in Luke 17:21, it means "it is located in your heart and affections, not external". The Strong's # is 1787:
http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1787


Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees. Surely He didn't mean that His kingdom was in those who rejected Him.
There were at least 7 houses of the Pharisees - we do not know they were ALL bad / in error.
They asked the question, but we do not know that Jesus was speaking "directly" to them, and he could have turned to others with the answer.
Even if the Pharisee house here was bad, and his answer was to them too, that would not mean that the Kingdom Of God was not "within" them - because the Kingdom Of God is something to respond to by individuals. I can provide more verses, but it is bedtime.
Jesus was within the midst of the Pharisees; not within their bodies.Don't understand this - the theme was about the Kingdom Of God/Heaven and what it means it scriptures, not about Jesus being inside "bodies", though now, He is in our hearts.

Blessings.

John146
Mar 2nd 2008, 05:52 AM
See Cliftons answer, as i agree with him.

God bless

Don't we currently sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6)? What heavenly places would that be? The heavenly Mount Zion and heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22) perhaps? Speaking in a spiritual sense, of course.

quiet dove
Mar 2nd 2008, 05:07 PM
You should keep in mind, Revelation is a highly symbolic book.

The word for eagles (aetoi) is interestingly interpreted “angel” in Revelation 8:13. The fowls or birds seem to be a poignant symbol of the angels of God whose job it is to exercise un-merciless judgment on the wicked on that day.

Describing the nature and character of the eagle, Job 39:30 poignantly declares, “where the slain are, there is she.”

There seems good reason to believe that these fowls or birds are symbolic of the angels, which mete out justice upon the wicked on behalf of God destruction at the end of this age. They are clearly a heavenly host as, when they are bidden, they are found flying “in the midst of heaven.” Here we see the final destruction of the wicked.

Paul

Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him (Jesus)who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

If the above interpretation and explanation is how you understand it we will have to just disagree because I can not see what you are saying in the context.

And in Rev 8:13 I have G32(messenger). And in Rev 19:17 & 21 I have G3732(fowl/bird/eagle)-but not angel. I am having trouble finding the word you have above, is it strongs #105 aetos? (eagle, vulture)

I am not sure what you mean with Job, Job seems to support that eagles/vultures are at God's command. They can be both bidden and fly in the midst of heaven, which could simply be the sky.

Job 39:27 Does the eagle mount up at your command, And make its nest on high? 28 On the rock it dwells and resides, On the crag of the rock and the stronghold. 29 From there it spies out the prey; Its eyes observe from afar. 30 Its young ones suck up blood; And where the slain are, there it is."

fellowservant
Mar 3rd 2008, 08:00 AM
Yep! ;) We are "spiritually" in place - the Hebrews verse quoted can mean that - "near/towards" + "drawn/came" (in English order "Drawn Near"), which refers to having been drawn near to the Metaphysical (in the afterlife). The spiritual position now is "being" near/towards that of the Metaphysical (if someone has a better word, I am all ears:)).

Maybe that is one reason Hebrews was one of the four books Martin Luther did not want as part of the canon for the protestants?:hmm: I forget what the third criteria was that he added for a book to be included - nonetheless, be reluctantly bowed to tradition.

You understand of course, that once we were "born from above" (John 3:3) that we inherit the "Kingdom Of God / Heaven" here - the Kingdom Of God (Matthew tends to instead use "Heaven") is here with, and, among and within you (cp. Luke 17:20-21 for one example, but I can provide more). Here, it is in its "imperfect state", but after all things are accomplished, and we are in the Eternal Heaven (having received our immortal, incorruptible bodies), will be its "perfect state."

Blessings.


Amen brother: maybe Luther should have read the whole book of Hebrews. And im sure he did. The answer whether or not we are in the new Jerusalem and new heaven and earth, is right in the same book, next chapter. As Paul says it straight out this time, and not a figure of speach.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


This is what Abraham was looking for.

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Ie new Jerusalem)


This is the fathers house, that Christ promised his followers.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


So this pretty much sums it up, that we are not compleatly there yet.


God bless

fellowservant
Mar 3rd 2008, 08:26 AM
I agree with this part of your post.

Which made me think of this question for those who see Rev 19 as speaking of the time when the earth is burned up and a new Heaven and Earth created, why call the birds to a feast? So He can burn up well fed, fat birds? Maybe fat birds burn better.

I like this brother, just as much as i like barbequed chicken:D Might as well have a little humor,two much prophecy is hard on the head. But i like it just the same. Its good to teach and learn at the same time.

God bless brother

Merton
Mar 3rd 2008, 08:55 AM
hi,

I like Zech ch 8 and 9 on the subject.



Merton.

wpm
Mar 3rd 2008, 02:28 PM
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him (Jesus)who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

If the above interpretation and explanation is how you understand it we will have to just disagree because I can not see what you are saying in the context.

And in Rev 8:13 I have G32(messenger). And in Rev 19:17 & 21 I have G3732(fowl/bird/eagle)-but not angel. I am having trouble finding the word you have above, is it strongs #105 aetos? (eagle, vulture)

I am not sure what you mean with Job, Job seems to support that eagles/vultures are at God's command. They can be both bidden and fly in the midst of heaven, which could simply be the sky.

Job 39:27 Does the eagle mount up at your command, And make its nest on high? 28 On the rock it dwells and resides, On the crag of the rock and the stronghold. 29 From there it spies out the prey; Its eyes observe from afar. 30 Its young ones suck up blood; And where the slain are, there it is."


Revelation 19 negates any possibility of the Premillennial view as it depicts the total destruction of the wicked at Christ’s Coming. There are expressly no survivors. How then can human beings saturate a future millennial kingdom as the sand of the sea?

The extent of that supper is revealed in verses 17-18, saying,“I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast,and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beastwas taken, and with him the false prophetthat wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy(or) remaining ones (or) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

Revelation 19 shows in as explicit a way as the Holy Spirit could possibly do it that the destruction that occurs at the Lord’s return is immediate, absolute and total. Here – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed. The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” This is clearly not a local battle or a restricted group of men, as some Premils imagine. The sum-total of the wicked are totally destroyed. It is plain from studying this and other scripture that not one nation (or individual) survives the wrath of God at His Coming – people are either caught up or caught on. Anyway, God only recognises two types of people in this life, who are on two completely different paths going two different directions to two different destinies. These are the saved and the lost, the sheep and the goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance when Christ appears; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. To navigate round this obvious difficulty, Premils invent a third group of people that are unknown to this narrative (and to the rest of Scripture), which are evidently too wicked to make the catching away but also too righteous to be destroyed. They require such a theory in order to sustain their idea that their future millennium will be saturated with the ungodly as the sand of the sea. However, they are found nowhere in Revelation 19 or does any other Scripture know anything of such half-breeds.

The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Even if we only had this phrase “the flesh of all men” - it would be enough to rebut the Premil notion. However, The suffix attached to this group “both free and bond, both small and great” eliminates any ambiguity reference the scale of the destruction and removes any opportunity for Premils to tamper or distort the meaning of the text.

Paul

Clifton
Mar 3rd 2008, 03:24 PM
Amen brother: maybe Luther should have read the whole book of Hebrews. And im sure he did. The answer whether or not we are in the new Jerusalem and new heaven and earth, is right in the same book, next chapter. As Paul says it straight out this time, and not a figure of speach.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

This is what Abraham was looking for.

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Ie new Jerusalem)

This is the fathers house, that Christ promised his followers.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So this pretty much sums it up, that we are not compleatly there yet.

God bless

I checked several Bible versions on Hebrews 12:22, and I do not know why they rendered "προσεληλυθατε" in the manner they did, without regard to “the προσ (PROs) prefix” of the word. I can only guess. Like in English, the Greek “PRO” means “before, first”, thus, “PROS” is “towards, near, in front of, etc.”;

εληλυθατε by itself is a Greek Perfect Tense verb, which by itself means:
“have/having came/come”;

Verses in Hebrews Chapter 12 do have a lot of "variant readings", but v.22 is not one of them. I checked all the Greek New Testaments I have;

Some of the older to the newer Bible versions render it properly, as well as v.18 where the Greek word also appears, which indicates "a mount" that cannot be “touched” (though in the case in this verse, we would wouldn’t want "to be near" as such, much less "at it" to touch it).

Here are some of the Bible Versions for Hebrews 12:22 – note the first one, Lamsa, (1933 A.D.), is translated from the Syriac Hebrew Pe****to (which is in Hebrew):

“But you have come near to mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the innumerable multitude of angels” (Hebrews 12:22 Lamsa)

“But you have drawn near Mount Zion, even the city of the living God, to a heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,” (Hebrews 12:22 LIT)

“No, but it is to Mount Zion that you have drawn near, the City of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to countless hosts of angels,” (Hebrews 12:22 TWENTY)

“But ye have approached––unto Zion’s mountain, and unto the city of a Living God, a heavenly Jerusalem,––and unto myriads of messengers,” (Hebrews 12:22 Rotherham)

“Rather, you have approached toward Mount Zion {#Psalm 2:6} and the City of a Living God–to Celestial Jerusalem and myriads of angels {#Daniel 7:10} –” (Hebrews 12:22 MHM)
:note: NOTE: Emphasis and the inserted Scripture references are by the MHM translator(s).

But ye have come nigh unto the Mount of Ziun, and to the city of Aloha the Living, to the Urishlem which is in heaven, and to the congregation of myriads of angels, and to the church of the firstborn (ones) who are written in heaven, and to Aloha the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the just who are perfected,
Hebrews 12:22-23 Etheridge*

* I do not know which ethnic group that the Etheridge Version is for.

You present good points in regards to Hebrews 11:10 and 13:14, and John 14:2-3.;)

Blessings.

quiet dove
Mar 3rd 2008, 06:54 PM
1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”
Paul

Key here would be flesh. Finish the verse context on out before you accuse me of "distorting the meaning of the text".
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Revelation 19 shows in as explicit a way as the Holy Spirit could possibly do it that the destruction that occurs at the Lord’s return is immediate, absolute and total.after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast. You are contradicting yourself. After the marriage? How can this be after the marriage by amil interpretation? Jesus comes back, separates the sheep from the goats, takes the sheep, destroys the goats, by amil interpretation. So how is it that the goats are not destroyed until after the marriage of the Lamb?


This is clearly not a local battle or a restricted group of men, as some Premils imagine.You are putting words in my mouth again. You are not talking to "premils" here, you are talking to me, so I am sure you will be delighted to know I believe the entire earth will be involved in all these events.

You are not trying to discuss with me, you are trying to bash premil, and in doing so putting words in my mouth and presuming to know what I think and believe and why I think it and believe it. Stick to explaining amil as many your assumptions about me are incorrect. And I do not need you to explain premil to me as I am not the premil poster child.

IBWatching
Mar 3rd 2008, 07:24 PM
...Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that you consider indicates (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a Coming of Christ?

Well that's just it. I don't see anywhere in the NT that the Church is part of either the DOTL or the tribulation period. What else should I conclude?


I think it is total naivety to think that mortal creatures would last 24 hrs without sinning against God, unless everyone within your millennium are quasi-gods.

That's why Jesus described the separation judgments after the tribulation and how they will work. They continue while He is on David's throne, here on earth.


Is not faith in Christ and His shed blood on Calvary man's only hope of salvation? Are you suggesting there is another way to be saved since Adam?

Every time I asked you a question, you just change the form of it. I will ask again in the manner you prefer. Are you now Saved? Are you now Glorified?


I think you voiced opinion but you never outlined a sound biblical reason.

And you have done the same. Instead of offering Scripture which disputes what I have said, you keep asking me for them. It's your thread. If you have Scripture, offer it. If you are seriously seeking answers, it should be easy.

wpm
Mar 3rd 2008, 08:43 PM
QD

Firstly, I did not mean to misrepresent your position. I apologise if I did.


You are contradicting yourself. After the marriage? How can this be after the marriage by amil interpretation? Jesus comes back, separates the sheep from the goats, takes the sheep, destroys the goats, by amil interpretation. So how is it that the goats are not destroyed until after the marriage of the Lamb?

Could it be you are actually doing the same think that you rebuked me of in your post? You are purporting to speak on behalf of my belief, in doing so you are actually misrepresenting it. The Amil view actually believes that Jesus comes back, destroys the living wicked and this sin-cursed earth and then judges the living and the dead in total.

I could equally respond to you: "You are putting words in my mouth. You are not talking to "Amils" here, you are talking to me ... you are trying to bash Amil, and in doing so putting words in my mouth and presuming to know what I think and believe and why I think it and believe it. Stick to explaining Premil as many your assumptions about me are incorrect. And I do not need you to explain Amil to me as I am not the Amil poster child."

I wouldn't be comfortable with that response as I know you did it in ignorance, but maybe I did the same! The fact is, we all try our best to reflect the opposing view, but those who hold it are probably the best at articulating it. I am not the first (or the last) to inadvertently misrepresent an alternative perspective. I genuinely thought I was reflecting the standard Premil view of this.

Paul

wpm
Mar 3rd 2008, 08:54 PM
IBWatching



Well that's just it. I don't see anywhere in the NT that the Church is part of either the DOTL or the tribulation period. What else should I conclude?


Why did the NT writers even bother warning the Church that the DOTL would come unexpectedly upon them as a "thief in the night"? Also, the tribulation period is repeatedly covered in the NT.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

The word translated "narrow" in our King James Version here is the Greek word thlibo, which elsewhere in Scripture carries the meaning of afflicted, suffering, tribulation and troubled. So, when the passage says “narrow is the way” we could rightly interpret it “tribulation is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” This is the norm for a Christian. The true blood-bought member of the redeemed Church enters tribulation through salvation. This is an ongoing reality, not a future hope as you suggest. We are currently in the tribulation and the rapture is still future. At the rapture the elect in total are rescued and the wicked in total are destroyed.

Jesus said in John 15:18-21, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me."

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Jesus said in John 16:33, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

Ephesians 3:13 says, "Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory."

I Thessalonians 3:3 says, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. "

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"

Revelation 1:9 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"


That's why Jesus described the separation judgments after the tribulation and how they will work. They continue while He is on David's throne, here on earth.

You are not answering my query and therefore explaining the issue at stake on this thread. How can these sinful mortals even enter the new earth? You said they will not sin because Satan is locked up. But that is not the reason why men don't sin, that will only occur upon glorification. But Premil has countless unglorified mortals in their millennium - so evidently they war with sin (Satan or no Satan). That is their nature.

Even a born again man still sins. However, you render unsaved mortals sinless outside of salvation. This doesn't add up.


Are you now Saved?

Yes. And on my way to glory.



Are you now Glorified?


Not yet. Will be at the one final future Coming of Christ.


And you have done the same. Instead of offering Scripture which disputes what I have said, you keep asking me for them. It's your thread. If you have Scripture, offer it. If you are seriously seeking answers, it should be easy.

No Premil on this thread has actually provided one single Second Coming passage that proves that mortals survive the Coming of Christ and eneter the new earth.

Paul

IBWatching
Mar 3rd 2008, 09:22 PM
...You are not answering my query and therefore explaining the issue at stake on this thread. How can these sinful mortals even enter the new earth? You said they will not sin because Satan is locked up. But that is not the reason why men don't sin, that will only occur upon glorification. But Premil has countless unglorified mortals in their millennium - so evidently they war with sin (Satan or no Satan). That is their nature.

Actually I did answer it. They gain entrance to the millennial kingdom on the basis of faith. Those who don't are separated.


Even a born again man still sins. However, you render unsaved mortals sinless outside of salvation. This doesn't add up.

And so we as Believers in the time of the Church continue to sin even though we have been chosen for Glorification. Does that "unsave" us? And if it works that way for us, how will it differ for those sinners in the MK? I have posted elsewhere on this board that it seems to escape notice that when Jesus lays down specific rules on how to live during the MK, this is not unprecedented in Scripture (the tree...in the garden...remember?). It is those rules which Jesus makes as King during the MK that cannot be broken. It won't be the first time God has tested in this manner.


Yes. And on my way to glory.

Likewise



Not yet...

Likewise. Yet you say it can't be so for the MK saints? They can't exist as sinners, yet Chosen for Glorification, just as we do now? Perhaps I am not stating it the right way. When Scripture shows me that previous Saints have been dealt with in the same manner and you tell me that it can't happen again, should I accept the fact that Scripture shows it as possible, or believe your denial of it?



No Premil on this thread has actually provided one single Second Coming passage that proves that mortals survive the Coming of Christ and eneter the new earth.

How can they when the two events don't occur at the same time? One precedes the other by more than 1,000 years. I have a list of plenty of verses throughout the Bible supporting the pre-millennial position.

I quit trying to attack other people's end time's positions long ago. I am not looking for followers. Also, it really doesn't matter, in the end, what you and "think" about these matters. God will do what He says He will do:


Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

wpm
Mar 3rd 2008, 10:04 PM
Actually I did answer it. They gain entrance to the millennial kingdom on the basis of faith. Those who don't are separated.

If someone has faith at His return then they will be caught up, if not they will be destroyed.

Jesus said in Luke 17, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27). Jesus continues, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29). The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed”(v 30).

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day" (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-11, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved.”

The writer of the Hebrews says in Heb 10:27, “a certain fearful looking forof judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

John says, “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns …out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-16).

Verses 17-18, saying, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or) remaining ones (or) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."


And so we as Believers in the time of the Church continue to sin even though we have been chosen for Glorification. Does that "unsave" us? And if it works that way for us, how will it differ for those sinners in the MK? I have posted elsewhere on this board that it seems to escape notice that when Jesus lays down specific rules on how to live during the MK, this is not unprecedented in Scripture (the tree...in the garden...remember?). It is those rules which Jesus makes as King during the MK that cannot be broken. It won't be the first time God has tested in this manner.

God tells us that we sin on this earth. What we are talking about is the glorification of this earth at His return.You argue ‘flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God’, Scripture say, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 15:50). You argue that ‘corruption will be allowed into the incorruptible kingdom’, Scripture says, “neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Cor 15:50). The elect are made fit to enter the incorrupt state by being physically “changed” whereupon “this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Cor 15:53). Only those that experience this change at the last trump are eligible to inherit this incorrupt curse-free state.

Paul

Mograce2U
Mar 3rd 2008, 10:13 PM
(Rev 16:13-17 KJV) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. {14} For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. {15} Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. {16} And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. {17} And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This passage seems to parallel Rev 19. The gathering of the kings of the earth/ land and the kings of the whole world/ Roman empire together at Armageddon, is just before the 7th vial is poured out and it is all over. It doesn't seem to have the all-inclusiveness of "everybody" in the whole world to me - except as it pertains to that world in existence in the days in which the 7 churches lived.

When Noah preached about the flood coming upon the whole world - did anybody listen to him? What is the purpose of proclaiming the end of the world, when we are already saved and it cannot harm us? Nobody else was saved in Noah's day - but he was delivered to tell the story. Noah didn't need elaborate details to inform the world of what was coming on THEM. The elaborate details of which prophecy concerns itself is to save the ones who are marked for deliverance and must survive those events. If we are in Christ we have our deliverance. Those in the 1st century however still had to face the end coming upon Judaism, and these warnings make sense for them to hear - because they did need to survive them.

Whether the end of the world comes tomorrow or merely my own death - what does it matter? What will the world who is destroyed in it care? That is why I think Rev 20:9 is the only place the fire that destroys the whole world is to be found - and not much is said about that day. The only place we find a kingdom in which both the righteous and the wicked still dwell together is in this one we have right now. It hardly seems likely that another one just like it is planned for our future. Because if I am glorified and my son is not, that will be a grief too great to bear for God's glory. Now there is hope and faith and love and mercy as well as sin and death and grief. Why would I put my hope in another kingdom which is just more of the same - though "better" for me? Some things are just too impossible to believe!

quiet dove
Mar 3rd 2008, 10:18 PM
QD
Firstly, I did not mean to misrepresent your position. I apologise if I did.

Could it be you are actually doing the same think that you rebuked me of in your post? You are purporting to speak on behalf of my belief, in doing so you are actually misrepresenting it.

I could equally respond to you: "You are putting words in my mouth. You are not talking to "Amils" here, you are talking to me ... you are trying to bash Amil, and in doing so putting words in my mouth and presuming to know what I think and believe and why I think it and believe it. Stick to explaining Premil as many your assumptions about me are incorrect. And I do not need you to explain Amil to me as I am not the Amil poster child."

I wouldn't be comfortable with that response as I know you did it in ignorance, but maybe I did the same! The fact is, we all try our best to reflect the opposing view, but those who hold it are probably the best at articulating it. I am not the first (or the last) to inadvertently misrepresent an alternative perspective. I genuinely thought I was reflecting the standard Premil view of this.

Paul

It would be one of the very few times I have even mentioned another view in one of my post where as you do it to me all the time, so now you can understand how it comes across. That is why I said what I said. You can search my post to find that I have very rarely, very rarely, ever stated what other views teach. But I apologize for any offense, I did not mean to offend, just make a point.

Back to our conversation.:)

I am quoting some from the previous post because that is the heart of my question


Revelation 19 shows in as explicit a way as the Holy Spirit could possibly do it that the destruction that occurs at the Lord’s return is immediate, absolute and total.after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7)...



The Amil view actually believes that Jesus comes back, destroys the living wicked and this sin-cursed earth and then judges the living and the dead in total.

Do I understand what you are telling me you believe:
--That Jesus comes once, His Second Advent,to take the just to be with Him and to judge the unjust?
--If that is a correct understanding of what you are saying, how is "the destruction that occurs at the Lord’s return ... immediate, absolute and total...(and)after “the marriage of the Lamb"

Who is at the marriage supper of the Lamb or the Bride of the Lamb? Who are the guest and who is the bride, there must be both if there is to be a marriage supper. There must also be a marriage. If He comes the one time to take the just, judge the unjust, the marriage and marriage supper can only happen after the absolute and total destructions that occurs at the Lord's return, not the other way around, because there would have been no just to be part of the marriage prior to His Second Advent.

wpm
Mar 3rd 2008, 10:54 PM
It would be one of the very few times I have even mentioned another view in one of my post where as you do it to me all the time, so now you can understand how it comes across. That is why I said what I said. You can search my post to find that I have very rarely, very rarely, ever stated what other views teach. But I apologize for any offense, I did not mean to offend, just make a point.

Back to our conversation.:)

I am quoting some from the previous post because that is the heart of my question






Do I understand what you are telling me you believe:
--That Jesus comes once, His Second Advent,to take the just to be with Him and to judge the unjust?
--If that is a correct understanding of what you are saying, how is "the destruction that occurs at the Lord’s return ... immediate, absolute and total...(and)after “the marriage of the Lamb"

Who is at the marriage supper of the Lamb or the Bride of the Lamb? Who are the guest and who is the bride, there must be both if there is to be a marriage supper. There must also be a marriage. If He comes the one time to take the just, judge the unjust, the marriage and marriage supper can only happen after the absolute and total destructions that occurs at the Lord's return, not the other way around, because there would have been no just to be part of the marriage prior to His Second Advent.


The marriage between Christ and His bride relates to the catching away / resurrection of the redeemed of all time at His one final return.

We must take each passage or parable on their own merit. The marriage of the Lamb is the consummation of the marriage between Christ and His elect from Adam. There is only one people of God (who belong to the good olive tree). This occurs just before the wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and this cursed earth, and occurs in the twinkling of an eye.

Paul

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 01:42 AM
The marriage between Christ and His bride relates to the catching away / resurrection of the redeemed of all time at His one final return.

We must take each passage or parable on their own merit. The marriage of the Lamb is the consummation of the marriage between Christ and His elect from Adam. There is only one people of God (who belong to the good olive tree). This occurs just before the wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and this cursed earth, and occurs in the twinkling of an eye.

Paul


Paul,

Why does this verse indicate that the saints are not all who believe ---

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day" (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).


Who are these who give glory to God who are not resurrected with the witnesses?


Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

and why are they referred to as the remnant? What are they the remnant of?


What Jerusalem will Christ deliver like birds flying?


Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it;and passing over he will preserve it.
Isa 31:6 Turn ye unto himfrom whom the children of Israel have deeply revolted.
Isa 31:7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin.
Isa 31:8 Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.
Isa 31:9 And he shall pass over to his stronghold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.



Merton.

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 02:03 AM
---------------------------

-----------------------------

Revelation 19 shows in as explicit a way as the Holy Spirit could possibly do it that the destruction that occurs at the Lord’s return is immediate, absolute and total. Here – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed. The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” This is clearly not a local battle or a restricted group of men, as some Premils imagine. The sum-total of the wicked are totally destroyed. It is plain from studying this and other scripture that not one nation (or individual) survives the wrath of God at His Coming – people are either caught up or caught on. Anyway, God only recognises two types of people in this life, who are on two completely different paths going two different directions to two different destinies. These are the saved and the lost, the sheep and the goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance when Christ appears; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. To navigate round this obvious difficulty, Premils invent a third group of people that are unknown to this narrative (and to the rest of Scripture), which are evidently too wicked to make the catching away but also too righteous to be destroyed. They require such a theory in order to sustain their idea that their future millennium will be saturated with the ungodly as the sand of the sea. However, they are found nowhere in Revelation 19 or does any other Scripture know anything of such half-breeds.

The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Even if we only had this phrase “the flesh of all men” - it would be enough to rebut the Premil notion. However, The suffix attached to this group “both free and bond, both small and great” eliminates any ambiguity reference the scale of the destruction and removes any opportunity for Premils to tamper or distort the meaning of the text.

Paul


Paul,

You have the sheep of the sheep/goat judgment being judged, and judged after the return of Christ before they enter into the Kingdom.

Your view plainly contradicts the words of Jesus if you regard the sheep of the sheep/ goat judgment being the sum total of all who are saved ---

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.
Joh 5:26 For even as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in Himself.
Joh 5:27 And He also gave authority to Him to execute judgment, for He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
Joh 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.


Clearly the bodily resurrection itself determines finally who will be in that resurrection, and not any sheep/goat judgment which follows.

Merton.

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 02:17 AM
Paul stated--


Premils invent a third group of people that are unknown to this narrative (and to the rest of Scripture), which are evidently too wicked to make the catching away but also too righteous to be destroyed. They require such a theory in order to sustain their idea that their future millennium will be saturated with the ungodly as the sand of the sea. However, they are found nowhere in Revelation 19 or does any other Scripture know anything of such half-breeds.

The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Even if we only had this phrase “the flesh of all men” - it would be enough to rebut the Premil notion. However, The suffix attached to this group “both free and bond, both small and great” eliminates any ambiguity reference the scale of the destruction and removes any opportunity for Premils to tamper or distort the meaning of the text.


Well Paul that sounds very conclusive.

Tell me. Have ALL Kings bowed to Jesus ?

Do ALL nations serve Him?

It must refer to some time, but it can not occur when there is only one nation upon an eternal earth. When is it to be?

Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.

Rev 15:4 Who will not fear You, Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only are holy. For all the nations will come and will worship before You, because Your righteousnesses were made known.


Who are the nations who must keep the feast of Tabernacles after Christs return, and who will need healing?

Zech 14 and Rev.22.

Merton.

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 03:21 AM
Paul,

Why does this verse indicate that the saints are not all who believe ---

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day" (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).


I don't agree with the premise embodied within your question, so I can't answer it positively. I believe your question is indeed flawed. II Thessalonians 1:7-10 actually refers to everyone that believes. The saints (dead and alive will be united and glorified together at Christ's return. This is indeed the time of the perfecting of the saints.

Paul

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 03:23 AM
Paul stated--




Well Paul that sounds very conclusive.

Tell me. Have ALL Kings bowed to Jesus ?

Do ALL nations serve Him?

It must refer to some time, but it can not occur when there is only one nation upon an eternal earth. When is it to be?

Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.

Rev 15:4 Who will not fear You, Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only are holy. For all the nations will come and will worship before You, because Your righteousnesses were made known.


Who are the nations who must keep the feast of Tabernacles after Christs return, and who will need healing?

Zech 14 and Rev.22.

Merton.

I believe Zech 14 refers (like the rest of Zech) to Christ's first Advent. Rev 22 symbolically talks about the fruit that the glorified redeemed will partake of for all eternity. We will indeed enter paradise at His return. The earth will return to a pristine state totally purged of all wickedness, sin and corruption.

Paul

quiet dove
Mar 4th 2008, 03:31 AM
The marriage between Christ and His bride relates to the catching away / resurrection of the redeemed of all time at His one final return.

Paul

You still have the marriage before the immediate and total destruction which happens when He comes? And we can see from Matthew and related passages that every eye sees Him come, His angels gather the elect, He separates then judges. At what point did the saints get resurrected and the marriage supper happen, prior to the judgment? We can also tell from Matthew and related verses He has sheep on His right and goats on His left, no one has gone any where yet. And since these are physical just and unjust yet to face eternity, one way or the other, where are the dead that are to be raised? Are they raised before or after the separating of the sheep and goats? We know the dead in Christ are raised before the living in Christ, what about the dead(unjust) living and the dead(unjust) dead?


Revelation 19 shows in as explicit a way as the Holy Spirit could possibly do it that the destruction that occurs at the Lord’s return is immediate, absolute and total.after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7)..

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 04:47 AM
You still have the marriage before the immediate and total destruction which happens when He comes? And we can see from Matthew and related passages that every eye sees Him come, His angels gather the elect, He separates then judges. At what point did the saints get resurrected and the marriage supper happen, prior to the judgment? We can also tell from Matthew and related verses He has sheep on His right and goats on His left, no one has gone any where yet. And since these are physical just and unjust yet to face eternity, one way or the other, where are the dead that are to be raised? Are they raised before or after the separating of the sheep and goats? We know the dead in Christ are raised before the living in Christ, what about the dead(unjust) living and the dead(unjust) dead?

Firstly, I believe the Coming of the Lord is climatic.

Secondly, I don’t think there is one single passage that reveals every minute detail of the resurrection / judgment and God’s dealing with the righteous and the wicked. The only way to comprehend these details is to take a holistic approach to our study of the Second Coming - there we will find they combine into the same event.

Thirdly, there are two issues here: (1) the resurrection (2) the judgment.

I believe, Matthew 24 relates to the resurrection. Matthew 25 relates to the judgment. I would like to concentrate upon the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked here.

Fourthly, there are only two peoples in this world – saved and lost. I believe God views them as unitary groupings and constantly deals with them as the same.

Fifthly, and I would like you and others to think about this (as I have never heard it touched in end-times discussion forums at any time), there are four sub-groups at Christ's Coming: (Group 1) ‘the dead in Christ’, (Group 2) ‘the live in Christ’, (Group 3) ‘the dead wicked’, (Group 4) ‘the live wicked’.

Even though there are four sub groups, I believe they will merge into two distinct camps at Christ's appearance. God will deal with them as two cohesive unitary groupings. I will try to back this up with Scripture.

Union of the Righteous

The catching away is the means by which group 2 (G2) – ‘the live in Christ’ – join group 1 (G1) – ‘the dead in Christ’ – to make one harmonious group. They are all glorified at the same time and are all eternally united from this point forward. This is the final and eternal gathering of the saints. There will be no more salvation after this final union. This occurs in a moment.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 confirms, “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

The reference to “first” used in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 in relation to the resurrection is for the sole purpose of differentiating between the “dead in Christ” (G1) at His Coming, and the living in Christ at His Coming (G2). This passage is simply showing how there is an order to the catching away – the dead righteous (G1) preceding the live righteous (G2) by way of a physical resurrection – “the resurrection of life” (John 5:29). The live righteous (G2) don’t participate in a resurrection as they don’t physically die, they are supernaturally changed at Christ’s appearance and then rise by being “caught up together with them in the clouds.” Both the living and the dead will thus unite to abide with Christ forever, albeit in a Divine order.

Paul confirms the validity of this truth and the finality of that day, in 1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

The Holy Spirit reveals a crucial truth in this reading, which many seem to miss, which greatly assists us in our analysis of the character and form of the physical resurrection. This is found in the simple phrase “every man in his own order.” This important statement seems to suggest that there is a specific order to the resurrection. The word interpreted “order” here in the King James Version is the Greek word ‘tagma’ meaning something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. a series or succession. It is worth noting that this is the only place in the Greek New Testament that this word is employed.

The order of being “made alive” is – the dead righteous (G1) preceding the live righteous (G2). G1 is resurrected; G2 is changed in a moment and then caught up (an ascent rather than a resurrection). 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 supports this thought, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the ‘eschatee’ (or) last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

All will be changed; all will be united. This unitary group join Christ in an atom (1/20 of a second). This is instant, it is immediate and it is eternal.

The redemption of our bodies is the act of glorification. This is the final act of redemption for the elect. This involves all the elect of all time. Philippians 3:20-21 says, “For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall metaschematizo (or) change our vile body, that it may be summorphos (or) fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

The appearance of Christ sees the accomplishment of the glorification act on the redeemed. In it, the elect’s bodies are immediately “fashioned like unto his glorious body.” They are changed from the natural to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from sin-cursed to the perfect.


I John 3:1-2 says, “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

Whilst there are 2 groupings of believers at Christ's Coming, all will participate in this glorification at the same time. The 'dead in Christ' (who I have named G1 for clarity and distinction) need physically resurrected as their bodies lie decaying in the graves. Group 2 (G2) - the 'live in Christ’ are obviously not in the graves at Christ's return, they are alive. They therefore need physically changed. They are then caught up. They aren't resurrected because they aren't physically dead.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 explains, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,(or die) but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, andthe dead shall be raised(or) egeiro (Strong's 1453) incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Please note, it is only the dead (G1) that are said to be egeiro or resurrected.

There are two groups at Christ's Coming, both of which are glorified. G1 enjoys this by way of physical resurrection, G2 enjoys this by way of being immediately changed (allasso) and caught up.

Union of the wicked

God deals with this group as one harmonious group. To do so, He will destroy all of group 4 (G4) ‘the live wicked’ at His appearing by His very appearance. I believe this is immediate or very quick.

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When (2) he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Lord teaches the same in Luke 17, saying, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Verse 29 explains, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”

The Lord then significantly states, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (v 30).

Immediately after the righteous (G1 and G2) are rescued at Christ’s Coming ‘the live wicked’ (G4) are instantly destroyed, along with this current sin-plagued world. This means, as result of Christ’s appearing, all the wicked of all time are now dead. In short, they are unified in death. Remember, group 3 (G3) ‘the dead wicked’ are already dead. G3 & G4 are now collectively raised as a whole in “the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29) in order to be judged. G3 & G4 are merged together here never again to be separated. Their eternal abode as a people is the lake of fire.

Paul

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 04:59 AM
I don't agree with the premise embodied within your question, so I can't answer it positively. I believe your question is indeed flawed. II Thessalonians 1:7-10 actually refers to everyone that believes. The saints (dead and alive will be united and glorified together at Christ's return. This is indeed the time of the perfecting of the saints.

Paul

How can the question be flawed?

Do you really believe that all believers are saints? Saints means Holy ones. Are all believers Holy? If they are then why did Paul speak such words as he did to the believers?

Were the daughters of Lot righteous? or were they saved from the destruction because they believed and obeyed what the angels and their father said?

For your idea to be true, the daughters of Lot had to be Holy (saints) and righteous, and they were clearly not , but they obeyed.



Merton.

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 05:12 AM
I believe Zech 14 refers (like the rest of Zech) to Christ's first Advent. Rev 22 symbolically talks about the fruit that the glorified redeemed will partake of for all eternity. We will indeed enter paradise at His return. The earth will return to a pristine state totally purged of all wickedness, sin and corruption.

Paul


So you believe that there are nations in need of healing outside of the New Jerusalem during the eternal state of the earth. (Rev.22:1-2

You also believe that Gods name is the only one that men seek to be saved by and also that this describes events at the first advent--

Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.
Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Merton.

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 05:35 AM
How can the question be flawed?

Do you really believe that all believers are saints? Saints means Holy ones. Are all believers Holy? If they are then why did Paul speak such words as he did to the believers?

Were the daughters of Lot righteous? or were they saved from the destruction because they believed and obeyed what the angels and their father said?

For your idea to be true, the daughters of Lot had to be Holy (saints) and righteous, and they were clearly not , but they obeyed.



Merton.

You need to understand imputed righteousness. They sinned but so did Noah after the flood. So did every other saint. So do you. Our salvation is not built upon our righteousness, but what He attained unto. He alone was perfect. Salvation is through simple faith in what Jesus was and accomplished for us. He is indeed our righteousness.

Paul

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 05:40 AM
So you believe that there are nations in need of healing outside of the New Jerusalem during the eternal state of the earth. (Rev.22:1-2

You also believe that Gods name is the only one that men seek to be saved by and also that this describes events at the first advent--

Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.
Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Merton.

Those who enter into the NJ partake in everlasting healing. It is symbolism depicting what heaven is like. Jesus is the tree of life, however, He isn't a literal tree. He is the door, but not a literal door. He is the vine, but not a literal vine. You need to grasp the symbolism involved in the book of Revelation. The “healing of the nations” is a metaphor demonstrating how all within the New Jerusalem will be eternally freed of sin, sickness, death, disease and every consequence of the fall.

Paul

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 11:52 AM
Those who enter into the NJ partake in everlasting healing. It is symbolism depicting what heaven is like. Jesus is the tree of life, however, He isn't a literal tree. He is the door, but not a literal door. He is the vine, but not a literal vine. You need to grasp the symbolism involved in the book of Revelation. The “healing of the nations” is a metaphor demonstrating how all within the New Jerusalem will be eternally freed of sin, sickness, death, disease and every consequence of the fall.

Paul


Paul,

The nations who are receipents of the healing are OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem and the Spirit which the water symbolises comes from the Throne WITHIN the New Jerusalem to flow OUTSIDE of it.

ONLY those who are IN the Holy City of the New Jerusalem are privaleged to see the face of Him WITHIN it.

This is NOT a picture of the eternal earth and heaven after the last judgment, nor of our present time.


Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, wasthere the tree of life, which bare twelve mannerof fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Eze 47:5 Afterward he measured a thousand; anditwas a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
Eze 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
Eze 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Eze 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: whichbeing brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
Eze 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

Merton.

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 11:56 AM
Paul,

You did not deal with this discrepancy in your view.

I repeat the post--


Quote:
Originally Posted by wpm http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1558924#post1558924)
---------------------------

-----------------------------

Revelation 19 shows in as explicit a way as the Holy Spirit could possibly do it that the destruction that occurs at the Lord’s return is immediate, absolute and total. Here – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed. The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” This is clearly not a local battle or a restricted group of men, as some Premils imagine. The sum-total of the wicked are totally destroyed. It is plain from studying this and other scripture that not one nation (or individual) survives the wrath of God at His Coming – people are either caught up or caught on. Anyway, God only recognises two types of people in this life, who are on two completely different paths going two different directions to two different destinies. These are the saved and the lost, the sheep and the goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance when Christ appears; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. To navigate round this obvious difficulty, Premils invent a third group of people that are unknown to this narrative (and to the rest of Scripture), which are evidently too wicked to make the catching away but also too righteous to be destroyed. They require such a theory in order to sustain their idea that their future millennium will be saturated with the ungodly as the sand of the sea. However, they are found nowhere in Revelation 19 or does any other Scripture know anything of such half-breeds.

The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Even if we only had this phrase “the flesh of all men” - it would be enough to rebut the Premil notion. However, The suffix attached to this group “both free and bond, both small and great” eliminates any ambiguity reference the scale of the destruction and removes any opportunity for Premils to tamper or distort the meaning of the text.

Paul


Paul,

You have the sheep of the sheep/goat judgment being judged, and judged after the return of Christ before they enter into the Kingdom.

Your view plainly contradicts the words of Jesus if you regard the sheep of the sheep/ goat judgment being the sum total of all who are saved ---

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.
Joh 5:26 For even as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in Himself.
Joh 5:27 And He also gave authority to Him to execute judgment, for He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
Joh 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.


Clearly the bodily resurrection itself determines finally who will be in that resurrection, and not any sheep/goat judgment which follows.

Merton.

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 12:07 PM
You need to understand imputed righteousness. They sinned but so did Noah after the flood. So did every other saint. So do you. Our salvation is not built upon our righteousness, but what He attained unto. He alone was perfect. Salvation is through simple faith in what Jesus was and accomplished for us. He is indeed our righteousness.

Paul


Paul,


Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

By your theory no man is required to be Holy at all, but just to believe that Christ is.


2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and IprayGod your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Merton.

shamrock
Mar 4th 2008, 12:47 PM
Paul,


Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

By your theory no man is required to be Holy at all, but just to believe that Christ is.


2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and IprayGod your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Merton.


Job1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

Does blameless mean sinless?

ShirleyFord
Mar 4th 2008, 01:40 PM
Job1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

Does blameless mean sinless?

Ezekiel 14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.


Job's righteouness came because of his faith in his Redeemer:

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:


Job's blamelessness and righteousness came about as it did for Abraham: imputed righteousness, and for all believers who trust have placed their trust in Christ:

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 03:10 PM
Many from among the nations will enter mortally into the time period on the earth after Christ returns simply because they obey the messages of the three angels of Rev.14 spoken to them by the overcomers in this age before their (the overcomers) resurrection.

The mortal believers of the millenium will not be qualified to reign with Christ in His Throne because they shall never live in the conditions on the earth as Christ and His Bride do, but it is quite in order that some or many men and women shall enter into their bodily resurrection as God so wills during that time.

According to the following, no one repented of their sins.

Rev 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

so where would these mortals come from if they do not repent as it is written?

Where is it written that during the wrath of God being oured out that there will be people that repent?

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 04:25 PM
Paul,

The nations who are receipents of the healing are OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem and the Spirit which the water symbolises comes from the Throne WITHIN the New Jerusalem to flow OUTSIDE of it.

ONLY those who are IN the Holy City of the New Jerusalem are privaleged to see the face of Him WITHIN it.

This is NOT a picture of the eternal earth and heaven after the last judgment, nor of our present time.


Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, wasthere the tree of life, which bare twelve mannerof fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Eze 47:5 Afterward he measured a thousand; anditwas a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
Eze 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
Eze 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Eze 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: whichbeing brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
Eze 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

Merton.

Merton

The Scriptures that you quote do not support your commentary. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe the passage you are quoting and the preceding passages - which give context - prove that every vestige of corruption is purged from the new earth. The NJ actually descends unto the new glorified earth. The Bible tells us that the wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity. This occurs at the return of Christ. This is when the final separation occurs. No corruption can inhabit the new earth.

Revelation 21:1-5 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Paul

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 04:33 PM
Paul,

You did not deal with this discrepancy in your view.

I repeat the post--

Paul,

You have the sheep of the sheep/goat judgment being judged, and judged after the return of Christ before they enter into the Kingdom.

Your view plainly contradicts the words of Jesus if you regard the sheep of the sheep/ goat judgment being the sum total of all who are saved ---

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.
Joh 5:26 For even as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in Himself.
Joh 5:27 And He also gave authority to Him to execute judgment, for He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
Joh 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.


Clearly the bodily resurrection itself determines finally who will be in that resurrection, and not any sheep/goat judgment which follows.

Merton.


http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif


Then there is no such thing as the resurrection of the just and the unjust. It is just one general indefinite resurrection.

I believe there is one physical resurrection day that sees one all-encompassing raising of mankind. However, within that one resurrection there are two distinct categories of rising embodied: (1) unto “life,” and (2) unto “damnation.” Notwithstanding, there is an undoubted order to the general resurrection; the dead in Christ will rise first, etc.

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead (singular), both of the just and unjust.”

This verse speaks of a singular “resurrection of the dead” not multiple resurrections (plural) of the dead as some intimate. The fact that Paul differentiates between the wicked and the righteous in no way proves that these are two separate resurrections coming at the end of two separate ages split by 1,000 years+ of history (filled with all the produce of the curse – sin, death and corruption). No, it simply demonstrates that there are two types of resurrection in the one final resurrection of the dead at the end.

Scripture constantly distinguishes between the wicked and the righteous even though they are found participating in the same event at the same time. Why would anyone think it strange that the Holy Spirit would identify the two different parties that take part in the general “resurrection of the dead”? After all, it is a normal biblical procedure to distinguish between these two conflicting camps. Although to suggest that the identifying of these two distinct parties indicates two separate events at two separate times is illogical.

Paul

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 04:37 PM
Paul,


Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

By your theory no man is required to be Holy at all, but just to believe that Christ is.


2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and IprayGod your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Merton.


When we receive Christ we receive perfect holiness - perfect righteousness. It is all of Him. We just need to let Him take control of every area of our lives. Holiness is not an abstract thing that we can attain unto, no, it is Christ in us. No man is justified by his own innate goodness or his own good works.

Paul

IBWatching
Mar 4th 2008, 04:41 PM
...What we are talking about is the glorification of this earth at His return...

As I said, they don't occur at the same time. One precedes the other by at least 1,000 years. You are arguing a "perpetual strawman" here. You're arguing about saints during the Millennial Kingdom which you don't believe will exist in the first place.


Matthew 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

This isn't a parable. And it isn't allegory either. Paul identified the only allegory in the entire NT in Galatians 4. After Jesus Returns to the earth, then He will sit on His Throne (He's not sitting on it not now as some erroneously suppose, but the Father's Throne). The nations here are people, and He says ALL. The promise is to inherit the Kingdom.

Unless you take "nations" as anything other than what the Bible uses that term for, which is people, then how do you explain what's going on here?

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 04:45 PM
Many from among the nations will enter mortally into the time period on the earth after Christ returns simply because they obey the messages of the three angels of Rev.14 spoken to them by the overcomers in this age before their (the overcomers) resurrection.

The mortal believers of the millenium will not be qualified to reign with Christ in His Throne because they shall never live in the conditions on the earth as Christ and His Bride do, but it is quite in order that some or many men and women shall enter into their bodily resurrection as God so wills during that time.

According to the following, no one repented of their sins.

Rev 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

so where would these mortals come from if they do not repent as it is written?

Where is it written that during the wrath of God being oured out that there will be people that repent?

The Scripture you present does not support your supposition. There is no suggestion in the verses you quote that mortals survive Christ's Coming, neither is there any other reading in Scripture which states such. But there are numerous that indicate that the wicked will be destroyed (like Noah and Lot's day) at Christ's return.

Please remember, if a man belongs to Christ when He returns then he will be caught up. If he doesn't then he will be destroyed. The final judgment occurs at the Coming of Christ.

This phrase the “quick and the dead” or the ‘living and the dead’, which comes up a few times in the New Testament, is so totally all-inclusive and unequivocal that one can’t imagine the Holy Spirit employing a more explicit expression to describe the full amount of all mankind. The expression itself doesn’t exclude any, in fact, if one isn’t embodied within the overall term one is in serious difficulty. This plain saying unquestionably encompasses the complete amount of Adam’s race – of all time. Every single person conceived from Adam must undoubtedly fall into one category or the other – dead or alive.

2 Timothy 4:1 identifies the actual time when this complete number will stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.” Adam’s race – in total – is therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) epifaneian (or) appearing and his kingdom.” Everyman that has ever lived from the foundation of the world will be then brought before the final judgment bar of God to account for their earthly lives. This is undoubtedly an all-inclusive general judgment. The persons involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

Paul

John146
Mar 4th 2008, 06:30 PM
How can the question be flawed?

Do you really believe that all believers are saints?

Of course. Where is the Scripture that says otherwise? Are you Catholic?



Saints means Holy ones. Are all believers Holy?

Yes. We are made holy by the blood of Christ.



If they are then why did Paul speak such words as he did to the believers?

What do you mean?



Were the daughters of Lot righteous? or were they saved from the destruction because they believed and obeyed what the angels and their father said?

For your idea to be true, the daughters of Lot had to be Holy (saints) and righteous, and they were clearly not , but they obeyed.

You are speaking in terms of people being perfect and sinless. None of us are. I sure hope you aren't claiming to be. But in God's eyes we are perfect and holy because we have a mediator in Jesus Christ who took our place and covered our sins with His blood so that we would be seen as righteous and clean in God's eyes.

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 06:42 PM
IBWatching


As I said, they don't occur at the same time. One precedes the other by at least 1,000 years.

I have already showed that Romans 8:19-23 proves that death and all the result of the fall are removed when we are glorified ("the redemption of our body”). I would be obliged if you would tell me when you believe the day of redemption actually is.

You are arguing a "perpetual strawman" here. You're arguing about saints during the Millennial Kingdom which you don't believe will exist in the first place.

I do believe in the millennial earth. We are on it now. This is the kingdom age.



This isn't a parable. And it isn't allegory either. Paul identified the only allegory in the entire NT in Galatians 4. After Jesus Returns to the earth, then He will sit on His Throne (He's not sitting on it not now as some erroneously suppose, but the Father's Throne). The nations here are people, and He says ALL. The promise is to inherit the Kingdom.

Unless you take "nations" as anything other than what the Bible uses that term for, which is people, then how do you explain what's going on here?



Firstly, are you saying you are a literal sheep?

Second, why would this passage teach something that is clearly contradictory to that repeatedly outlined in the rest of Scripture – namely the judging of individual nations rather than the judging of individual persons within them nations? Your interpretation of this parable gravely conflicts with numerous Scripture that show a final general judgment at the Second Coming. The clear context of the reading before us and the fact that Scripture nowhere teaches that a man will be judged on the basis of his nationality below condemns this man-made theory. Man is undoubtedly saved by grace, not by race.

David Wilkerson of Times Square Church, New York rightly says in a written message ‘The Human Touch’, “Some people claim, ‘this is a judgment of nations, not people’. That’s foolishness! There are no sheep nations or goat nations. I challenge anybody to name one sheep nation existing today or in the past. It’s clear this is a judgment of all humankind. And the sheep mentioned here are judged by one criteria.” He then quotes Matthew 25:34-36.

The judgment is all about individuals, not whole nations. The term “the nations” is given to describe everyone. Where are the ‘sheep nations’ and/or ‘goat nations’ spoken of in Scripture? They certainly aren’t in this reading. Furthermore, when Christ instructed the disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptising” he didn’t mean that they could actually make a disciple of any given nation and/or baptise a whole physical nation. No. He meant that the advance of the Gospel and its accompanying discipleship would include all nations. Notwithstanding, when we analyse the detail of the sheep and goats parable we see that it must surely be a judgment of individuals and not nations. For instance, how could a specific nation possibly visit a sick person (v 43)? How could a nation possibly visit a prisoner in prison (v 43)? What is more, how then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such an impossible act?Such a hypothesis is totally illogical and completely inconceivable. This judgment, like every other in Scripture,is an all-consummating general judgment of the deeds of all mankind within “all nations” and a testing of their individual works. What the phrase “all nations” simply and repeatedly indicates in Scripture is “the whole world.”

The phrase "sheep nations" is an extra-biblical term invented by some to fit their notion of the period preceding the Coming of the Lord. Scriptures knows nothing of such a term. The usage of the word "nations" simply speaks of people of all nationalities that make heaven (nothing more and nothing less). It is speaking of individuals from among within the nations rather than the individual nation as a whole. To add anything further to it is to add private interpretation to it to support your viewpoint. Anyway, no one is cast into hell because he is born in a ‘goat nation’. No one makes heaven because he is born in a ‘sheep nation’. No, men and women are judged individually on whether they accepted Christ and therefore lived for Him. There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ. Heaven sees no separation among the elect. There will be no Baptists and no Pentecostals, no Calvinist and no Arminianists. There will be no Americans and no Australians. Just redeemed saints from all the nations bought by precious blood - sinners saved by grace.

Who are these sheep nations? Please list them. I don't see them mentioned anywhere in Scripture. There is only one sheep nation – the redeemed of God, God's elect. They are rescued in total before the destruction and the goats are destroyed in total at His Coming. 1 Peter 2:9 declares, whilst exclusively addressing the Church of Jesus Christ, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

This reading refers in notable detail to the spiritual edifice – the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church being here described as a nation – “an holy nation” – which is under intimate divine control. This nation is not a physical nation, which can be observed with the natural eye but rather invisible and can only be seen through the spiritual eye. It is thus a spiritual nation that extends over every land boundary, ethnic group, colour and creed.

Paul

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 06:45 PM
The Scripture you present does not support your supposition. There is no suggestion in the verses you quote that mortals survive Christ's Coming, neither is there any other reading in Scripture which states such. But there are numerous that indicate that the wicked will be destroyed (like Noah and Lot's day) at Christ's return.

Please remember, if a man belongs to Christ when He returns then he will be caught up. If he doesn't then he will be destroyed. The final judgment occurs at the Coming of Christ.

This phrase the “quick and the dead” or the ‘living and the dead’, which comes up a few times in the New Testament, is so totally all-inclusive and unequivocal that one can’t imagine the Holy Spirit employing a more explicit expression to describe the full amount of all mankind. The expression itself doesn’t exclude any, in fact, if one isn’t embodied within the overall term one is in serious difficulty. This plain saying unquestionably encompasses the complete amount of Adam’s race – of all time. Every single person conceived from Adam must undoubtedly fall into one category or the other – dead or alive.

2 Timothy 4:1 identifies the actual time when this complete number will stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.” Adam’s race – in total – is therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) epifaneian (or) appearing and his kingdom.” Everyman that has ever lived from the foundation of the world will be then brought before the final judgment bar of God to account for their earthly lives. This is undoubtedly an all-inclusive general judgment. The persons involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

Paul


I think we have crossed wires, the supposition was from the first post and belongs to Merton.

This is mine.

According to the following, no one repented of their sins.

Rev 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

so where would these mortals come from if they do not repent as it is written?

Where is it written that during the wrath of God being oured out that there will be people that repent?

Hope that clears that up.

wpm
Mar 4th 2008, 06:54 PM
I think we have crossed wires, the supposition was from the first post and belongs to Merton.

This is mine.

According to the following, no one repented of their sins.

Rev 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

so where would these mortals come from if they do not repent as it is written?

Where is it written that during the wrath of God being oured out that there will be people that repent?

Hope that clears that up.

Apologies. I have obviously got my wires crossed.

Paul

John146
Mar 4th 2008, 06:54 PM
This isn't a parable. And it isn't allegory either. Paul identified the only allegory in the entire NT in Galatians 4. After Jesus Returns to the earth, then He will sit on His Throne (He's not sitting on it not now as some erroneously suppose, but the Father's Throne). The nations here are people, and He says ALL. The promise is to inherit the Kingdom.

Unless you take "nations" as anything other than what the Bible uses that term for, which is people, then how do you explain what's going on here?


Of course nations means people there (in Matt 25:32). Jesus told us to make disciples of all nations. He wasn't telling us to make disciples of China and Iran, right? He was telling us to make disciples in those nations and all nations. So, yes, nations refers to people. The promise we have is to inherit an eternal kingdom that is free of any sin, death, illness, pain or sorrow. That kingdom is the new Jerusalem of which we are already part spiritually (Eph 2:6, Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22), but not physically (no glorified bodies yet). The supposed future earthly millennial kingdom that premills believe in does not meet that criteria of a kingdom free of sin and death. In that kingdom, there will be both believers and unbelievers and sin, death, illness, pain and sorrow will still exist. The kingdom that we inherit (Matt 25:34) is only for those who inherit life eternal (Matt 25:46). The rest are cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41) to experience everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46).

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 10:46 PM
[quote=John146;1560532]Of course. Where is the Scripture that says otherwise? Are you Catholic?

Yes I am catholic.



Yes. We are made holy by the blood of Christ.

We are not made Holy by the blood of Christ, if that was the case then all men are Holy. The shedding of Christ's blood was a means to an end with the involvement of other things.

Repentance and faith is required, the Holy Spirit washes men of their sins, not figuratively or symbolically, but actually, by His coming upon them.

It either happened or it never happened,. Believing alone is not the happening.

Much of believers "faith" today is mind dynamics and wishful thinking, like when reading that Christ is in the midst of them , then they think He must be even if He is not.

Christs sufferings were for His Bride.



What do you mean?

Paul the apostle told believers that they should become entirely sanctified in putting off the works of the old man and putting on Christ. Only those persons are seated in Heavenly places in Christ. Others are still working and not resting in/through faith. All else is presumption.

Failure to rest from ones own works results in expulsion from Gods house. Heb.ch 4.

The bible message is that Christ died and that we should die with Him, not that He died and His death is transferred to men. That IS the RCC doctrine.



You are speaking in terms of people being perfect and sinless. None of us are. I sure hope you aren't claiming to be. But in God's eyes we are perfect and holy because we have a mediator in Jesus Christ who took our place and covered our sins with His blood so that we would be seen as righteous and clean in God's eyes.

That is your own idea of what I had said.

If one is in Christ and washed of his sins by the Spirit of God then one has no sin and is blameless and perfect in Him.

It only remains that one abides in Him after that but few have arrived at abiding in Him, and it is silly to suggest that one is Holy and blameless when one is really not, evidenced by their continuing in sinning.

A theory about believers being Holy by reason of God overlooking their continuing sinning is unscriptural and an unholy thought.

Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?



Of course us having faith in Christ and what He did places us free from the inpending wrath of God, but any continuing in sin will see us suffering in it, as most all OT accounts of Israel confirm, though God had loved them He began to hate their religious activities because of their wicked hearts and ways.

Mar 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive it, so that your Father in Heaven may also forgive your deviations.
Mar 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your deviations.

Mat 18:32 Then having called him near, his lord said to him, Wicked slave! I forgave you all that debt, since you begged me.
Mat 18:33 Ought you not also to have mercy on your fellow slave, as I also had mercy?
Mat 18:34 And being angry, his lord delivered him up to the tormentors until he pay back all that debt to him.
Mat 18:35 So also My heavenly Father will do to you unless each of you from your hearts forgive his brother their deviations.

Merton.

Merton
Mar 4th 2008, 11:08 PM
Many from among the nations will enter mortally into the time period on the earth after Christ returns simply because they obey the messages of the three angels of Rev.14 spoken to them by the overcomers in this age before their (the overcomers) resurrection.

The mortal believers of the millenium will not be qualified to reign with Christ in His Throne because they shall never live in the conditions on the earth as Christ and His Bride do, but it is quite in order that some or many men and women shall enter into their bodily resurrection as God so wills during that time.

According to the following, no one repented of their sins.

Rev 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

so where would these mortals come from if they do not repent as it is written?

Where is it written that during the wrath of God being oured out that there will be people that repent?


Context context context.

It is true that all mankind makes a decision one way or the other before Christ returns, but you and I both should know that it has been after we came to believe, through it being revealed to us from Heaven that Jesus is the Christ, Gods son, that we continued to cast off our idols as it was preached at the first to the 3000--

Act 2:40 And with many other words he earnestly testified and exhorted, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation.

The daughters of Lot were saved from Gods wrath of the time by a simple act of believing the words of the two witnesses and it is the same for the endtime generation who are preached the messages of the three angels in Rev. 14.

Look at the contents of those messages. They contain instructions on how to avoid the coming vials of wrath and survive mortally.

The great multitude in Rev.7 before the Throne are on earth, (not in Heaven) keeping the feast of tabernacles and only then being led to living waters.

Rev. 7 gives the Mother Zion members and Her children the great multitude that no man can number. Isaiah ch 49.

Merton.

IBWatching
Mar 5th 2008, 02:10 AM
The supposed future earthly millennial kingdom that premills believe in does not meet that criteria of a kingdom free of sin and death. In that kingdom, there will be both believers and unbelievers and sin, death, illness, pain and sorrow will still exist.

Do we not as members of the Church contend with sin and death in our own members?

Are we not considered Righteous in Jesus Christ? Are we not Chosen? Are we not bound for Glorification? All despite our sins and impending physical death?

How is it that you apply a criteria to future saints that you yourself are not capable of meeting as a saint now?

Firstfruits
Mar 5th 2008, 04:24 PM
Context context context.

It is true that all mankind makes a decision one way or the other before Christ returns, but you and I both should know that it has been after we came to believe, through it being revealed to us from Heaven that Jesus is the Christ, Gods son, that we continued to cast off our idols as it was preached at the first to the 3000--

Act 2:40 And with many other words he earnestly testified and exhorted, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation.

The daughters of Lot were saved from Gods wrath of the time by a simple act of believing the words of the two witnesses and it is the same for the endtime generation who are preached the messages of the three angels in Rev. 14.

Look at the contents of those messages. They contain instructions on how to avoid the coming vials of wrath and survive mortally.

The great multitude in Rev.7 before the Throne are on earth, (not in Heaven) keeping the feast of tabernacles and only then being led to living waters.

Rev. 7 gives the Mother Zion members and Her children the great multitude that no man can number. Isaiah ch 49.

Merton.

According to the following the only way to escape Gods wrath that will be poured out via the trumpets/vials is by not worshiping the beast or receive his mark.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

Do not forget that anyone that does not woship the beast etc is likely to be killed.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The only ones protected from God's wrath during that time will be the 144,000.

wpm
Mar 5th 2008, 04:54 PM
Do we not as members of the Church contend with sin and death in our own members?

Are we not considered Righteous in Jesus Christ? Are we not Chosen? Are we not bound for Glorification? All despite our sins and impending physical death?

How is it that you apply a criteria to future saints that you yourself are not capable of meeting as a saint now?

Because this is the new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter3).

Paul

wpm
Mar 5th 2008, 04:55 PM
The only ones protected from God's wrath during that time will be the 144,000.

So what happens to them?

Paul

Firstfruits
Mar 5th 2008, 07:53 PM
So what happens to them?

Paul

After they are sealed there are two scriptures which mention those that are sealed, one at the fifth trumpet.

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The 144,000 is then seen again on mount Zion after they have been redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I looked, And, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, And with him an hundred forty And four thousAnd, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

ShirleyFord
Mar 5th 2008, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Firstfruits http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1561720#post1561720)
The only ones protected from God's wrath during that time will be the 144,000.


Originally Posted by wpm http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1561748#post1561748)
So what happens to them?

Paul
After they are sealed there are two scriptures which mention those that are sealed, one at the fifth trumpet.

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The 144,000 is then seen again on mount Zion after they have been redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I looked, And, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, And with him an hundred forty And four thousAnd, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


FF, the answer to wpm's question (that you must've forgot to answer) is: The seal of God.

Wouldn't you agree?

Shirley

Merton
Mar 5th 2008, 09:50 PM
According to the following the only way to escape Gods wrath that will be poured out via the trumpets/vials is by not worshiping the beast or receive his mark.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

Do not forget that anyone that does not woship the beast etc is likely to be killed.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The only ones protected from God's wrath during that time will be the 144,000.



The 144000 are the bride, but she has obtained children, who are protected with her from Gods wrath. ( Isaiah ch 49 Rev.7 Psalm 91.) However trumpets apply to judgments in the church before the resurrection at the 7th trumpet and vials are upon the kingdom of the Beast, which is not all of the world, beginning after the resurrection.

Isa 4:5 Then Jehovah will create a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night, over all the site of Mount Zion, and over her assemblies; for on all the glory will be a canopy.
Isa 4:6 And there shall be a booth for a shade from the heat, and for a refuge, and for a hiding place from storm and rain.


The picture that God has given in scripture of the endtimes is the obtaining and revealing of the second Adam with His Bride and children in the greater garden of Eden with nations round about as survivors of the nations who refused to worship the beast in obedience to the Brides' message before the Brides' resurrection.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


One can come before the Throne of God while still mortal, and it is one of the most fundamental priciples of the New Covenant.

If one claims to have a mediator then when will the believer come before Him? Will he have to wait until he goes to Heaven or He comes to earth?

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest not being able to sympathize with our weaknesses but One having been tried in all respects according to our likeness, apart from sin.
Heb 4:16 Therefore, let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and we may find grace for timely help


Merton.

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 09:13 AM
FF, the answer to wpm's question (that you must've forgot to answer) is: The seal of God.

Wouldn't you agree?

Shirley

I believe wpm was asking about the 144,000 with the seal of God.

I understand that when we come to Jesus we are sealed, but the sealing of the 144,000 is concerning being protected when God pours out his wrath on the beast, the false prophet and all that worship them.

Eph 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 09:19 AM
The 144000 are the bride, but she has obtained children, who are protected with her from Gods wrath. ( Isaiah ch 49 Rev.7 Psalm 91.) However trumpets apply to judgments in the church before the resurrection at the 7th trumpet and vials are upon the kingdom of the Beast, which is not all of the world, beginning after the resurrection.

Isa 4:5 Then Jehovah will create a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night, over all the site of Mount Zion, and over her assemblies; for on all the glory will be a canopy.
Isa 4:6 And there shall be a booth for a shade from the heat, and for a refuge, and for a hiding place from storm and rain.


The picture that God has given in scripture of the endtimes is the obtaining and revealing of the second Adam with His Bride and children in the greater garden of Eden with nations round about as survivors of the nations who refused to worship the beast in obedience to the Brides' message before the Brides' resurrection.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


One can come before the Throne of God while still mortal, and it is one of the most fundamental priciples of the New Covenant.

If one claims to have a mediator then when will the believer come before Him? Will he have to wait until he goes to Heaven or He comes to earth?

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest not being able to sympathize with our weaknesses but One having been tried in all respects according to our likeness, apart from sin.
Heb 4:16 Therefore, let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and we may find grace for timely help


Merton.

From from what you have said do you believe that the church will be here when God's wrath is poured out via the trumpets/vials, as the 144,000 will be?

ShirleyFord
Mar 6th 2008, 01:34 PM
I believe wpm was asking about the 144,000 with the seal of God.

I understand that when we come to Jesus we are sealed, but the sealing of the 144,000 is concerning being protected when God pours out his wrath on the beast, the false prophet and all that worship them.

God pours out His wrath on all sin, sinners, the ungodly, those not in Christ, mortals, anything that is not immortal and incorruptible when Jesus returns. But nowhere in Rev. 7 or 14, where we find the mention of the 144,000 do we find any mention of a 7 yr. GT or the Second Coming of Christ.


Eph 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:13 is the only sealing of God of "the servants of God".

That sealing protects us from the wrath of God until the day our bodies are redeemed at the Second Coming of Christ when our physical bodies will be changed from mortal to immortal, from corruption to incorruption.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power - Revelation 20:6

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 01:48 PM
God pours out His wrath on all sin, sinners, the ungodly, those not in Christ, mortals, anything that is not immortal and incorruptible when Jesus returns. But nowhere in Rev. 7 or 14, where we find the mention of the 144,000 do we find any mention of a 7 yr. GT or the Second Coming of Christ.



Eph 1:13 is the only sealing of God of "the servants of God".

That sealing protects us from the wrath of God until the day our bodies are redeemed at the Second Coming of Christ when our physical bodies will be changed from mortal to immortal, from corruption to incorruption.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power - Revelation 20:6

This concerns those that are here during the reign of the beast/antichrist.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Who are these that are sealed here?

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

It should be noted that it is the servants of God that are sealed,also this is before Gods wrath is poured out.

ShirleyFord
Mar 6th 2008, 05:52 PM
FF,

Do you agree that God's wrath in Revelation 14:9-10 is poured out at the Second Coming of Christ?

( )Yes

( )No


Notice, the 144,000 are "firstfruits" (Rev. 14:14) not lastfruits which they would surely be if they were the last to be sealed with God's seal before He returns.

Or do you believe that these 144,000 children of Israel receive a different seal of God than the rest of the Church does at the time we are saved?


Shirley

Firstfruits
Mar 6th 2008, 07:02 PM
FF,

Do you agree that God's wrath in Revelation 14:9-10 is poured out at the Second Coming of Christ?

( )Yes

( )No


Notice, the 144,000 are "firstfruits" (Rev. 14:14) not lastfruits which they would surely be if they were the last to be sealed with God's seal before He returns.

Or do you believe that these 144,000 children of Israel receive a different seal of God than the rest of the Church does at the time we are saved?


Shirley

The answer is no, and the reason it is no is because Jesus does not come until the 7th trumpet when Gods wrath has been poured out on the beast and those that worship him.

The 144,000 receive a different seal of God just before Gods wrath is poured out on the beast and those that worship him.

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

After they have been sealed the seven trumpets are prepared to blow.
Note the first and second trumpets.

Rev 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

ShirleyFord
Mar 6th 2008, 08:31 PM
The answer is no, and the reason it is no is because Jesus does not come until the 7th trumpet when Gods wrath has been poured out on the beast and those that worship him.

God's wrath is poured out when Jesus returns, not before:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you

When is God's Tribulation of Wrath? When the Lord is Revealed

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



At The Second Coming of Christ

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:





Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



The 144,000 receive a different seal of God just before Gods wrath is poured out on the beast and those that worship him.

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

After they have been sealed the seven trumpets are prepared to blow.
Note the first and second trumpets.

Rev 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;


So are you saying that the 144,000 receive two seals of God?

Merton
Mar 6th 2008, 08:41 PM
Hi,

Why regard the receiving of the Holy Spirit as being the same as being sealed by the Holy Spirit?

Even those of Rev.7 who are sealed, are bondservants before they are sealed.

Many are called but few are chosen.

The purpose of and the actions of receiving the Holy Spirit is that one may become sealed.

Judas was not, though he was a believer who walked with Christ but refused to do so with his whole heart, in it becoming fully surrendered to doing Gods will.

Gods will is not in formulating positions of doctrine as the Pharisees did in order to pretend obedience to God.

Psa 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I show the salvation of God.

Merton.

ShirleyFord
Mar 7th 2008, 03:09 AM
Hi,

Why regard the receiving of the Holy Spirit as being the same as being sealed by the Holy Spirit?

Even those of Rev.7 who are sealed, are bondservants before they are sealed.

Many are called but few are chosen.

The purpose of and the actions of receiving the Holy Spirit is that one may become sealed.

Merton.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


The Sealing of the 144,000

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


The Sealing of the 144,000

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Notice, as soon as the 144,000 are sealed, they are on mount Sion with Jesus. They have been redeemed. They come boldly before the throne of God:


2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.



Reminds me of these Scriptures:


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Merton
Mar 7th 2008, 08:08 AM
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


The Sealing of the 144,000

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


The Sealing of the 144,000

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Notice, as soon as the 144,000 are sealed, they are on mount Sion with Jesus. They have been redeemed. They come boldly before the throne of God:


2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.



Reminds me of these Scriptures:


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.


It can take a long time for a believer with many experiences to come to this condition of the 144000. It took Moses and men like Jacob many years to come to it, even Peter.

Paul was some years till he was proven faithful as these 144000 are described.

1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

These are entirely sanctified. We need to study that out because presumpion of its occurance at conversion requires one to pretend that one has arrived at it while the evidence of ones life and of many men in scripture is that one has not. Even Solomon, though so gifted by God, was not entirely sanctified until near the end of his life.


Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

It is not wise to trust in a doctrine which pursuades one that they have arrived when the journey has only begun. It can result in bitter disappointment and a tendency to throw the towel in. It mostly happens when believers follow other believers teachings because they look as though they have arrived when they have not.


1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and IprayGod your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.



Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Merton.

Firstfruits
Mar 7th 2008, 09:35 AM
God's wrath is poured out when Jesus returns, not before:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you

When is God's Tribulation of Wrath? When the Lord is Revealed

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



At The Second Coming of Christ

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:





Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.





So are you saying that the 144,000 receive two seals of God?

It is written that before they are sealed they are Gods servants, this would be pointless if they were not here when God pours out his wrath upon the beast and his kingdom and all that worship him, this in regards to the fifth trumpet.

King James Version Revelation 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

They are sealed for the reason that they will be here when God's wrath is poured out.

Merton
Mar 7th 2008, 12:02 PM
It is written that before they are sealed they are Gods servants, this would be pointless if they were not here when God pours out his wrath upon the beast and his kingdom and all that worship him, this in regards to the fifth trumpet.

King James Version Revelation 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

They are sealed for the reason that they will be here when God's wrath is poured out.

The fifth trumpet speaks of the wrath of the beast on the disobedient of the church/churches before the resurrection. Rev.12:12 Rev.chs 8-9

The vials are Gods wrath on the beast after the resurrection and any mortal believers are kept safe from that wrath.

However the resurrected saints are with Christ in the clouds when the wrath of God is poured out on the beast. Rev.15.

Then there are other persons in the world who are not children of the Bride who also have heeded the message of the Bride delivered before the resurrection. These are the surviving of the nations.

If perhaps you are constructing your view from a resurrection timing after some vials of wrath or near to Armageddon then you are unable to provide scripture for its occurance at that time, (there are none) because no single vial of the wrath of God can come upon the beast until the deaths of the two witnesses when 3.5 days afterward they are resurrrected at the 7th trump in the first and only resurrection of the saints of any number of persons of the present church.

Merton.

Firstfruits
Mar 7th 2008, 01:31 PM
The fifth trumpet speaks of the wrath of the beast on the disobedient of the church/churches before the resurrection. Rev.12:12 Rev.chs 8-9

The vials are Gods wrath on the beast after the resurrection and any mortal believers are kept safe from that wrath.

However the resurrected saints are with Christ in the clouds when the wrath of God is poured out on the beast. Rev.15.

Then there are other persons in the world who are not children of the Bride who also have heeded the message of the Bride delivered before the resurrection. These are the surviving of the nations.

If perhaps you are constructing your view from a resurrection timing after some vials of wrath or near to Armageddon then you are unable to provide scripture for its occurance at that time, (there are none) because no single vial of the wrath of God can come upon the beast until the deaths of the two witnesses when 3.5 days afterward they are resurrrected at the 7th trump in the first and only resurrection of the saints of any number of persons of the present church.

Merton.

With regards to the following, where do the mortal believers come from if they are not resurrected at Christs return?

If all is fulfilled at the return of Jesus, according to God's promise, when are the vials poured out? Rev 10:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



"The vials are Gods wrath on the beast after the resurrection and any mortal believers are kept safe from that wrath.
However the resurrected saints are with Christ in the clouds when the wrath of God is poured out on the beast. Rev.15."

ShirleyFord
Mar 7th 2008, 03:30 PM
It is written that before they are sealed they are Gods servants, this would be pointless if they were not here when God pours out his wrath upon the beast and his kingdom and all that worship him, this in regards to the fifth trumpet.

King James Version Revelation 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Notice FF that Rev 5 above says that God's wrath is poured out on "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads". This Scripture however doesn't say that those who have the seal of God are sealed just before the Second Coming of Christ.



Shirley

Firstfruits
Mar 7th 2008, 04:00 PM
Notice FF that Rev 5 above says that God's wrath is poured out on "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads". This Scripture however doesn't say that those who have the seal of God are sealed just before the Second Coming of Christ.



Shirley

With the understanding that the following takes place before Jesus returns would you say that there is a difference between the wrath poured out on the beast and his kingdom and the wrath at Christs return?

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

Jesus does not come until the seventh trumpet, yet the beast and those that worship him right up until Jesus comes back are being punished, and when all that is done and Jesus returns, then they stiil have to face being cast into the lake of fire.

ShirleyFord
Mar 7th 2008, 06:42 PM
With the understanding that the following takes place before Jesus returns would you say that there is a difference between the wrath poured out on the beast and his kingdom and the wrath at Christs return?

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

Jesus does not come until the seventh trumpet, yet the beast and those that worship him right up until Jesus comes back are being punished, and when all that is done and Jesus returns, then they stiil have to face being cast into the lake of fire.

FF, the mark of God and the mark of the beast takes place before Jesus comes back. Satan's little season when he is loosed from his binding occurs before the Second Coming of Christ.

The return of Christ ends Satan's little season, when He rescues those who are His and the rest suffer His wrath, the wrath of God, in the eternal lake of fire, eternally.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Firstfruits
Mar 7th 2008, 07:27 PM
FF, the mark of God and the mark of the beast takes place before Jesus comes back. Satan's little season when he is loosed from his binding occurs before the Second Coming of Christ.

The return of Christ ends Satan's little season, when He rescues those who are His and the rest suffer His wrath, the wrath of God, in the eternal lake of fire, eternally.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Are you therefore in agreement that the wrath poured out on the beast ans his kingdom, with the understanding that it is not the lake of fire, and the wrath at Christs return, are not the same?

ShirleyFord
Mar 7th 2008, 08:30 PM
Are you therefore in agreement that the wrath poured out on the beast ans his kingdom, with the understanding that it is not the lake of fire, and the wrath at Christs return, are not the same?

No, I'm not in agreement.

Firstfruits
Mar 8th 2008, 03:03 PM
No, I'm not in agreement.

Is the wrath that is poured out on the kingdom of the beast before Jesus returns, the same as when Jesus returns at the seventh trumpet?

If you believe it is the same why do believe so?

ShirleyFord
Mar 8th 2008, 07:44 PM
Is the wrath that is poured out on the kingdom of the beast before Jesus returns, the same as when Jesus returns at the seventh trumpet?

If you believe it is the same why do believe so?

Evidently, FF, you believe that wrath is poured out on the beast and his kingdom before Jesus returns and again when Jesus returns.

Why don't you post the Scripture that clearly shows that the wrath is poured out on the beast and his kingdom twice:

1. Before the Second Coming of Christ

2. At the Second Coming of Christ


Thanks

quiet dove
Mar 8th 2008, 07:51 PM
Wouldn't the wrath be poured out once, but beginning with the opening of the seals by Christ, and continuing until completed and finished with the Second Advent of Christ? I mean is starts and stops just once but last for the entire duration of the tribulation.

Bing
Mar 8th 2008, 10:28 PM
Good to renew friendship. :pp
Sincerely, friend. I apologise for my lack of activity - I had rejoined hoping to devote more time to our discussions: sadly, this has proved not to be the case. I shall endeavour to give you prompter replies, and I know that you will forgive my lapses in this regard. Here we go...


I'm sorry but I have to start off disagreeing. I believe that was your conclusion, not mine. That was only one of several points that I took issue with your millennial view on. I feel your argument largely depended on putting a restricted meaning on "inherit" in order to allow Premil to fit.
Perhaps I was overly simplistic in my comment. I simply meant that the meaning of the word "inherit" has cropped up in several of our discussions, and that it seems a major bone of contention between us. I did not mean to suggest that it is the only disagreement between us. I am sure that even outside eschatology we have many theological differences, some of which I am in the wrong about, others of which you are. To clarify, I intended to mean that the meaning of the word "inherit" has been at the centre of many of our disagreements, particular regarding the nature of the resurrection and 1 Corinthians 15. Therefore, I believe it to be of critical import.


Scripture only recognises two ages - "this age" (time) and the "age to come" (eternity). This forbids the possibility of an in-between parenthesis millennial age. Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between the here-and-now and the “age to come.”
We shall see...


Romans 8:16-18 declares, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”

In this reading, Paul is simply comparing the testing that God’s people currently endure in this current life, which is plagued with all the consequences of the fall, and the joy of the eternal state when Christ comes that is totally purged of the curse. He speaks of a time when “the children of God” will be “glorified together” at His return. He assures his audience that the difficulties of this life are nothing “to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” when Christ appears. His whole focus is the glory that will be finally and eternally realised at Christ’s return.
I have no trouble with this reading. It is a glorious truth, and I am excited to know that you must feel the same joy as I do at this wondrous promise. Disagreements aside, I am genuinely glad to know that you will experience such glory as well as I, and I pray to the one who is able to keep us from stumbling, and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory that when all uncertainty is laid aside, we can look in retrospect on the way the end times actually happened - and marvel.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

God has set aside a day when He will finally bring time, sin and corruption to an end. The central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” When is that day? When we are glorified and our bodies are redeemed (as Postmils and Amils believe) or 1,000 yrs+ after that? This is essentially where the rubber meets the road. I believe we don't need to speculate - the answer is in the passage.


Again, I fully agree with most of that. In fact...all of that. The redeemed will be glorified at the Coming of the Lord, when He splits the skies and returns "with ten thousands of His saints", when He returns, visible to all and in a physical and human body "in the same way" His disciples saw Him leave, when He reveals Himself to the entire world "as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west", when He "comes on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Do you disagree with that?

I believe that the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. I believe that we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

I believe that this happens to the redeemed only. I do not believe that when Paul speaks about the "dead in Christ", he is talking about unbelievers who have died. I do not believe that his "we" includes unbelievers who are alive, for unbelievers, when they are judged, will not always be with the Lord. They will, I understand, be with Him briefly, and a terrible meeting it will be.

I hope you are on the same page with me up to here. I am unclear about the amillennial belief regarding the nature of the New Heavens and New Earth - although whether this is because I am obtuse or because those beliefs are vague, I am not sure.

Nonetheless, it is said that our own resurrected bodies are dispatched to us "in the twinkling of an eye". I believe that then Jesus will work with us to regenerate and rebuild the earth, as depicted at various places in Ezekiel, wiping away every trace of evil until the earth is new. If I recall correctly, you believe that as per 2 Peter 3:10, the earth, or at least significant substance thereof, will be annihilated to make way for the new earth, a baptism of fire that will destroy those who have no resurrected bodies.

Very well. Does this event - either regeneration or annihilation, or whatever scenario you choose to envision - take place simultaneously with the resurrection of our bodies? Please understand that I am not trying to branch off into a separate discussion regarding the nature of the new earth. Not at all. I shall not continue one here if you begin it. Rather, I am wondering if your use of Romans 8 to prove that, just as we are glorified at Jesus' return, so the earth itself will be glorified at His return.

If you intend to hold such a rigid approach to the text, why then, you should have to concede that the earth itself is glorified and burned up and changed at the same instant of the saints, or when Jesus first appears, at the last trumpet blast.

A simple yes or no answer will allow us to finish with this point. My own understanding of the seven judgement series in Revelation and my understanding of other Old and New Testament scriptures detailing the actions of the Lord's violent and warlike advent upon the earth when He returns completely disallow for this eventuality - that the earth should be glorified into paradise at the moment of Jesus' coming - and I would see no further profit in discussing it here.

If no, then you concede that although the glorification of the earth is in likeness to the glorification of the redeemed, it does not happen simultaneously to it, and thus the glorious realm that Paul depicts - the freedom from the bondage of corruption which could reasonably be a partial description of the unredeemed - would not take place immediately upon the Lord's return. This is an important distinction.

[quote=wpm;1553649]There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption.” Scripture makes it repeatedly clear that there will be an end to the current fallen state. Before moving on, we should establish what the “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage (that will one day be removed) really is? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay.

This reading confirms that the approaching change occurs at the one final future Coming of Christ – the day of redemption. It tell us that the "whole of creation" is "waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.” It is only then that the “sons of God” are finally glorified, and therefore totally and eternally delivered from this continuing “bondage of corruption” into the “glorious liberty of the children of God.” Then, this earth will be transformed from corruption to incorruption. The righteous will like be changed.
If you are claiming here, as I said above, that the transition from the earth in her present state into the new earth (however that may be realised - let us discuss that elsewhere!) then, as above, I think that we can close out this part of discussion with fundamental disagreement, and my charge against you of neglecting dozens of passages describing the acts of the Lord at His return in the establishment of His authority can wait for a thread devoted to such a subject.

Firstly, I am sorry but I reserve the right to use 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7. :) Granted, if I was Premil, I wouldn't want it to come up again because I feel it strongly challenges that school of thought. However, I must say to those who are unfamiliar with this passage that it proves that the wicked are all destroyed at Christ's Coming.

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

This passage recognises only two types of person at Christ's appearing (as all Scripture). Saved or lost, caught up or caught on. In fact, it carefully situates men in one of only two distinct groupings, and conclusively proves that it is only "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" that will survive the Second Coming. The rest are expressly destroyed.

Please note the wicked - to a man - are destroyed from "the presence of the Lord." This couldn't be more water tight.

Bing, what unregenerate man is excluded from the descripton of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?
Yes, yes, yes, and I appreciate your doggedness on this subject. I did not ask you to discount that passage from discussion - only from this discussion. We have thoroughly exegited 2 Thessalonians 1 before, you and I, and we can do so again if it would satisfy you, though I am confident both in my interpretation and in the inevitibility of your disagreement. Let us save this one for afterwards, with your good self thoroughly satisfied that it has been called to my attention and that I would never intend to ignore it, or pretend it had no weight on our discussion.


Other passages

In our previous discussion you seem to create a third group of grey people. These were the don't knows or maybes. You had them survining the wrath of God. Friend, there is no such thing. There is only saved or lost recognised in Scripture. The redeemed will be delivered in full when Christ appears, the wicked will be destroyed in full.
Ah, here was the point of my post. I was beginning to be afraid it had been lost. No, these are not the "don't knows" or "maybes". These - if a prosaic explanation must be offered in a word - the "not yets". But my intention was to find your scriptures proving that Jesus will scour the earth of all humanity (barring of course the redeemed, who are at this stage glorified) upon His return. I should like explicit scriptures - as explicit as your "flesh and blood shall not inherit" and 2 Thessalonians 1.

You see, friend, I agree with the passages you listed above - insofar as only the redeemed will spend eternity with the Lord. Every man born, whether redeemed and saved, or a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit who may never be saved, or a man who has not yet committed himself, will stand before the Lord at his death and be sent to everlasting damnation or everlasting salvation. There are two options, and salvific relationship with the Man Jesus Christ is the only way to share in the latter.

My question was not a universalist question of "can we cheat the system" but rather, have you any scriptures - other than 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Thessalonians 1 - that prove conclusively that unredemed men will not be allowed to live on into the Millennial Kingdom, having the chance all through the Millennium to accept Christ. I sum up with the point that plenty of people got saved after Jesus came the first time. Have you proof to the effect that He will not permit this the second time? I earnestly await your response, and pray your indulgence if I am as late in returning it as this time.

wpm
Mar 9th 2008, 01:46 AM
Again, I fully agree with most of that. In fact...all of that. The redeemed will be glorified at the Coming of the Lord, when He splits the skies and returns "with ten thousands of His saints", when He returns, visible to all and in a physical and human body "in the same way" His disciples saw Him leave, when He reveals Himself to the entire world "as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west", when He "comes on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Do you disagree with that?

I believe that the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. I believe that we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

I believe that this happens to the redeemed only. I do not believe that when Paul speaks about the "dead in Christ", he is talking about unbelievers who have died. I do not believe that his "we" includes unbelievers who are alive, for unbelievers, when they are judged, will not always be with the Lord. They will, I understand, be with Him briefly, and a terrible meeting it will be.

I hope you are on the same page with me up to here. I am unclear about the amillennial belief regarding the nature of the New Heavens and New Earth - although whether this is because I am obtuse or because those beliefs are vague, I am not sure.

Nonetheless, it is said that our own resurrected bodies are dispatched to us "in the twinkling of an eye". I believe that then Jesus will work with us to regenerate and rebuild the earth, as depicted at various places in Ezekiel, wiping away every trace of evil until the earth is new. If I recall correctly, you believe that as per 2 Peter 3:10, the earth, or at least significant substance thereof, will be annihilated to make way for the new earth, a baptism of fire that will destroy those who have no resurrected bodies.

Very well. Does this event - either regeneration or annihilation, or whatever scenario you choose to envision - take place simultaneously with the resurrection of our bodies? Please understand that I am not trying to branch off into a separate discussion regarding the nature of the new earth. Not at all. I shall not continue one here if you begin it. Rather, I am wondering if your use of Romans 8 to prove that, just as we are glorified at Jesus' return, so the earth itself will be glorified at His return.

If you intend to hold such a rigid approach to the text, why then, you should have to concede that the earth itself is glorified and burned up and changed at the same instant of the saints, or when Jesus first appears, at the last trumpet blast.

A simple yes or no answer will allow us to finish with this point. My own understanding of the seven judgement series in Revelation and my understanding of other Old and New Testament scriptures detailing the actions of the Lord's violent and warlike advent upon the earth when He returns completely disallow for this eventuality - that the earth should be glorified into paradise at the moment of Jesus' coming - and I would see no further profit in discussing it here.

If no, then you concede that although the glorification of the earth is in likeness to the glorification of the redeemed, it does not happen simultaneously to it, and thus the glorious realm that Paul depicts - the freedom from the bondage of corruption which could reasonably be a partial description of the unredeemed - would not take place immediately upon the Lord's return. This is an important distinction.


[/size][/font][/color][/color][/color]If you are claiming here, as I said above, that the transition from the earth in her present state into the new earth (however that may be realised - let us discuss that elsewhere!) then, as above, I think that we can close out this part of discussion with fundamental disagreement, and my charge against you of neglecting dozens of passages describing the acts of the Lord at His return in the establishment of His authority can wait for a thread devoted to such a subject.

[/color][/i][/u][/font][/size]Yes, yes, yes, and I appreciate your doggedness on this subject. I did not ask you to discount that passage from discussion - only from this discussion. We have thoroughly exegited 2 Thessalonians 1 before, you and I, and we can do so again if it would satisfy you, though I am confident both in my interpretation and in the inevitibility of your disagreement. Let us save this one for afterwards, with your good self thoroughly satisfied that it has been called to my attention and that I would never intend to ignore it, or pretend it had no weight on our discussion.


[/size][/font]Ah, here was the point of my post. I was beginning to be afraid it had been lost. No, these are not the "don't knows" or "maybes". These - if a prosaic explanation must be offered in a word - the "not yets". But my intention was to find your scriptures proving that Jesus will scour the earth of all humanity (barring of course the redeemed, who are at this stage glorified) upon His return. I should like explicit scriptures - as explicit as your "flesh and blood shall not inherit" and 2 Thessalonians 1.

You see, friend, I agree with the passages you listed above - insofar as only the redeemed will spend eternity with the Lord. Every man born, whether redeemed and saved, or a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit who may never be saved, or a man who has not yet committed himself, will stand before the Lord at his death and be sent to everlasting damnation or everlasting salvation. There are two options, and salvific relationship with the Man Jesus Christ is the only way to share in the latter.

My question was not a universalist question of "can we cheat the system" but rather, have you any scriptures - other than 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Thessalonians 1 - that prove conclusively that unredemed men will not be allowed to live on into the Millennial Kingdom, having the chance all through the Millennium to accept Christ. I sum up with the point that plenty of people got saved after Jesus came the first time. Have you proof to the effect that He will not permit this the second time? I earnestly await your response, and pray your indulgence if I am as late in returning it as this time.

Bing

Thanks for the reply. I though you had been raptured. :D

The first time Jesus came He came as Saviour; the next time He comes is as Judge. I have showed you several passages that reinforce that and show that the Second Coming of Christ is in fact the judgment of all creation - saved and lost, dead and alive. The burden of proof is upon you to prove there are exceptions to the rule and those that are too evil to make the catching away and too righteous to be destroyed by His return. In all the Second Advent reading that alludes to judgment there are only two parties. There are no “grey people” as you describe them. I don't believe you have ever proved this in our discussions. This is the issue at stake and the subject matter of this thread. Unfortunately no Premil is actually addressing this query in any satisfactory manner. I feel this is a weakness in the Premil argument and one that I have not adequately had contented.

I have showed you that there can be no partial glorification of the earth as you are proposing, no more than there can be a partial glorification of the saints to inherit the new earth. The glorified saints are prepared for a glorified environment. Both are finally and eternally delivered from the blight of the curse.

Paul

Firstfruits
Mar 9th 2008, 11:40 AM
Evidently, FF, you believe that wrath is poured out on the beast and his kingdom before Jesus returns and again when Jesus returns.

Why don't you post the Scripture that clearly shows that the wrath is poured out on the beast and his kingdom twice:

1. Before the Second Coming of Christ

2. At the Second Coming of Christ


Thanks

Rev 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the first went, And poured out his vial upon the earth; And there fell a noisome And grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, And upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Remember Jesus does not come until Armageddon 6th/7th vials.

ShirleyFord
Mar 9th 2008, 01:48 PM
Rev 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the first went, And poured out his vial upon the earth; And there fell a noisome And grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, And upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Remember Jesus does not come until Armageddon 6th/7th vials.

FF, I was taught for nearly 30 years that the Second Coming of Christ would be at the Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39, the battle of Armageddon.

We find the Gog and Magog war in Revelation 20:8-9. We find the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16, and in the only verse in the Bible where the word "Armageddon" is found: v. 16.

I was also taught and still believe that the accounts of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 show clearly what occurs at the Second Coming of Christ:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

We find a similiar scene in Revelation 6 with added details of the wrath of God being poured out:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And notice that the time of Rev. 6 is called, "the wrath of the Lamb", "the great day of his wrath".

Notice also in v. 14, "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together and every mountain and island were moved out of their places".

Now compare to Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Shirley

precepts
Mar 9th 2008, 04:41 PM
For 2000 years, revelation has not been interpreted. What makes you so sure that your ideas are factual?

Firstfruits
Mar 9th 2008, 07:31 PM
FF, I was taught for nearly 30 years that the Second Coming of Christ would be at the Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39, the battle of Armageddon.

We find the Gog and Magog war in Revelation 20:8-9. We find the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16, and in the only verse in the Bible where the word "Armageddon" is found: v. 16.

I was also taught and still believe that the accounts of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 show clearly what occurs at the Second Coming of Christ:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

We find a similiar scene in Revelation 6 with added details of the wrath of God being poured out:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And notice that the time of Rev. 6 is called, "the wrath of the Lamb", "the great day of his wrath".

Notice also in v. 14, "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together and every mountain and island were moved out of their places".

Now compare to Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Shirley

Did I answer your question, regarding Gods wrath being pout out on the beast and his kingdom before Jesus returns?

ShirleyFord
Mar 10th 2008, 01:21 AM
Did I answer your question, regarding Gods wrath being pout out on the beast and his kingdom before Jesus returns?

If you did, FF, I missed it. ;)

Firstfruits
Mar 10th 2008, 08:55 AM
If you did, FF, I missed it. ;)

Here it is again.
Originally Posted by ShirleyFord http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1565792#post1565792)
Evidently, FF, you believe that wrath is poured out on the beast and his kingdom before Jesus returns and again when Jesus returns.

Why don't you post the Scripture that clearly shows that the wrath is poured out on the beast and his kingdom twice:

1. Before the Second Coming of Christ

2. At the Second Coming of Christ


Thanks
Rev 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the first went, And poured out his vial upon the earth; And there fell a noisome And grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, And upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Remember Jesus does not come until Armageddon 6th/7th vials.

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

ShirleyFord
Mar 10th 2008, 10:54 AM
FF,

God's Tribulation of wrath is always against the ungodly, those not in Christ just as Satan's Tribulation of wrath is always against the godly, those who belong to Christ.

But I believe the Bible teaches that Satan unleashes his greatest but final Tribulation of Wrath against the Church just before the Second Coming of Christ. And I believe that Jesus ends Satan's tribulation of wrath at His Coming again when He pours out His final Tribualtion of wrath upon the earth and all that is in it.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

No ungodly, mortal person survives the Lord's Coming again in the day of His wrath upon all who are not in Christ.

Shirley

Firstfruits
Mar 10th 2008, 02:10 PM
FF,

God's Tribulation of wrath is always against the ungodly, those not in Christ just as Satan's Tribulation of wrath is always against the godly, those who belong to Christ.

But I believe the Bible teaches that Satan unleashes his greatest but final Tribulation of Wrath against the Church just before the Second Coming of Christ. And I believe that Jesus ends Satan's tribulation of wrath at His Coming again when He pours out His final Tribualtion of wrath upon the earth and all that is in it.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

No ungodly, mortal person survives the Lord's Coming again in the day of His wrath upon all who are not in Christ.

Shirley

Does the following take place before Jesus returns?

Is it God that send it?

Jesus does not return until the after Armageddon.

Armageddon does not take place until the sixth vial, therefore the previous vials of Gods wrath must be poured out before Jesus returns.

Rev 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the first went, And poured out his vial upon the earth; And there fell a noisome And grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, And upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Bing
Mar 16th 2008, 04:55 AM
Bing

Thanks for the reply. I though you had been raptured. :D

The first time Jesus came He came as Saviour; the next time He comes is as Judge. I have showed you several passages that reinforce that and show that the Second Coming of Christ is in fact the judgment of all creation - saved and lost, dead and alive. The burden of proof is upon you to prove there are exceptions to the rule and those that are too evil to make the catching away and too righteous to be destroyed by His return. In all the Second Advent reading that alludes to judgment there are only two parties. There are no “grey people” as you describe them. I don't believe you have ever proved this in our discussions. This is the issue at stake and the subject matter of this thread. Unfortunately no Premil is actually addressing this query in any satisfactory manner. I feel this is a weakness in the Premil argument and one that I have not adequately had contented.

I have showed you that there can be no partial glorification of the earth as you are proposing, no more than there can be a partial glorification of the saints to inherit the new earth. The glorified saints are prepared for a glorified environment. Both are finally and eternally delivered from the blight of the curse.
My dear Paul,
I hate to break it to you, but there is no "secret rapture". Jesus comes back as a Judge, and all the earth will see Him, so you see, I cannot have been raptured. ;)

I thank you for your candour and most of all your brevity - while I do enjoy the detail and dilligence in which you prepare your posts, the speed of your tomelike replies often staggers me. I am glad that we can agree that this point has been discussed enough for us both to have clarity on the other's standpoint and thus exchange these briefer comments.

With your above response in mind, I should like to beg of you the indulgence of two final points of clarification -

First, when exactly - and I cannot stress that word enough - according to your view, is the earth glorified/renewed/destroyed-and-remade?

Secondly, aside from 2 Thessalonians 1 and 1 Corinthians 15 (both of which I shall be delighted to exegite with you in a separate discussion) do you have any scriptures that prove succinctly that apart from the glorified saints nobody shall be allowed to survive past the return of Jesus Christ to the earth?

I understand on this latter point that you have offered up scriptures which (when placed in certain choice contexts) richly imply this - or which corroborate this idea. I should like to find some clear biblical evidence to support the claim I have encountered from you and your ASA friends on this message board - viz. "NOBODY will survive the return of Jesus apart from the saints!" I am looking for passages as succinct as the two examples you have given, both of which I earnestly desire to discuss, but which would be most profitably examined in context with other seemingly resolute verses of similar ilk.

Once again I thank you immensely for your time, and begin to have real hope that we can make some ground with this discussion.

wpm
Mar 28th 2008, 02:05 AM
With your above response in mind, I should like to beg of you the indulgence of two final points of clarification -

First, when exactly - and I cannot stress that word enough - according to your view, is the earth glorified/renewed/destroyed-and-remade?

Secondly, aside from 2 Thessalonians 1 and 1 Corinthians 15 (both of which I shall be delighted to exegite with you in a separate discussion) do you have any scriptures that prove succinctly that apart from the glorified saints nobody shall be allowed to survive past the return of Jesus Christ to the earth?


I understand on this latter point that you have offered up scriptures which (when placed in certain choice contexts) richly imply this - or which corroborate this idea. I should like to find some clear biblical evidence to support the claim I have encountered from you and your ASA friends on this message board - viz. "NOBODY will survive the return of Jesus apart from the saints!" I am looking for passages as succinct as the two examples you have given, both of which I earnestly desire to discuss, but which would be most profitably examined in context with other seemingly resolute verses of similar ilk.

Once again I thank you immensely for your time, and begin to have real hope that we can make some ground with this discussion.


I Thessalonians 5:2-7 is a case-in-point. It says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.” Now I note that you believe the wicked shall escape, however this conflicts with the sacred pages. You are therefore arguing with clear simple explicit Scripture. The fire that arrives is depicted as being totally destructive to the wicked, not empowering or edifying as you are suggesting. The “children of light” are the exception to this destructive judgment.

Malachi says, "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

Here you have it!!! Isaiah 34:1-4 says, “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

Verses 8-10 continues, “For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

Isaiah describes what occurs at the Second Advent: (1) The heavens shall pass away. (2) The earth shall be burned up. (3) No wicked will survive this day of destruction. Whilst the day of the Lord is undoubtedly the day when the righteous are finally rescued, it is also, significantly, the day when the wicked are totally destroyed. The consistent teaching of Scripture shows us that the Second Coming of the Lord will see the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgment at the Second Coming. It is an all-consummating event. I Thessalonians 5:4 plainly says, of those left behind at the Second Coming, “they shall not escape.” In fact they will be burnt up along with this sin-cursed world. The elements will be melted up and “none shall pass through it for ever and ever” (Isaiah 34:10).

Heb 10:27 says, “a certain fearful looking forof judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Isaiah speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

Here in this reading, Isaiah testifies of the time when he personally, as an Old Testament saint, will be physically resurrected to meet the Lord at His Coming. In doing so, he links this to time when “the earth shall cast out the dead.” Significantly, he relates this climactic resurrection to the dead generally and explains how it corresponds with the great judgment of the wicked, at the end, “for their iniquity.” This occasion plainly embodies all the characteristics of that impending Last Day.

Isaiah describes how this day sees the time when the wicked are raised to be judged, which as we have seen is the very same time that the Old Testament saints are also raised. The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

Psalm 68: 1-3 declares, "Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.”

The wicked are shown here to perish at Christ’s appearance. They are eradicated by the “fire” of God from the holy “presence” of the Lord. The righteous on the other hand are received of the Lord and “rejoice before God.” Their final deliverance has arrived and they are “glad.” The joy of the righteous is in such stark contrast to the terror of the wicked that wail, morn, and lament at the appearance of Christ.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."

Psalm 37:22 says, "For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off."

Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying, "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."

I will give you more as you reuest.

Paul[/font]

Firstfruits
Mar 28th 2008, 09:50 AM
My dear Paul,
I hate to break it to you, but there is no "secret rapture". Jesus comes back as a Judge, and all the earth will see Him, so you see, I cannot have been raptured. ;)

I thank you for your candour and most of all your brevity - while I do enjoy the detail and dilligence in which you prepare your posts, the speed of your tomelike replies often staggers me. I am glad that we can agree that this point has been discussed enough for us both to have clarity on the other's standpoint and thus exchange these briefer comments.

With your above response in mind, I should like to beg of you the indulgence of two final points of clarification -

First, when exactly - and I cannot stress that word enough - according to your view, is the earth glorified/renewed/destroyed-and-remade?

Secondly, aside from 2 Thessalonians 1 and 1 Corinthians 15 (both of which I shall be delighted to exegite with you in a separate discussion) do you have any scriptures that prove succinctly that apart from the glorified saints nobody shall be allowed to survive past the return of Jesus Christ to the earth?

I understand on this latter point that you have offered up scriptures which (when placed in certain choice contexts) richly imply this - or which corroborate this idea. I should like to find some clear biblical evidence to support the claim I have encountered from you and your ASA friends on this message board - viz. "NOBODY will survive the return of Jesus apart from the saints!" I am looking for passages as succinct as the two examples you have given, both of which I earnestly desire to discuss, but which would be most profitably examined in context with other seemingly resolute verses of similar ilk.

Once again I thank you immensely for your time, and begin to have real hope that we can make some ground with this discussion.


With regards to the following, which earth are you taking about, this current earth or the new earth?

Secondly, aside from 2 Thessalonians 1 and 1 Corinthians 15 (both of which I shall be delighted to exegite with you in a separate discussion) do you have any scriptures that prove succinctly that apart from the glorified saints nobody shall be allowed to survive past the return of Jesus Christ to the earth?

These are they that shall dwell in the new earth/New Jerusalem;

Rev 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) He that overcometh shall inHerit all things; and I will be his God, and He shall be my son.

Rev 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

These are they that shall not;

Rev 21:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 21:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Bing
Apr 5th 2008, 03:48 AM
Thanks, wpm and Firstfruits. I have to run right now, but I shall be back on this weekend. I've had a busy week of it, and didn't notice you'd replied.

third hero
Apr 5th 2008, 10:01 PM
Bing, my hand is outstretched, and I am beggin for you to tag me in. Impatience has led me into the ring, to give you aid, as though you actually need it.

Well, welcome back wpm. I am glad that we can have this discussion. I have matured quite a bit since our last encounters with this subject, and I am hoping that we can have a good debate. With that said, let the jousting begin.


I Thessalonians 5:2-7 is a case-in-point. It says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.” Now I note that you believe the wicked shall escape, however this conflicts with the sacred pages. You are therefore arguing with clear simple explicit Scripture. The fire that arrives is depicted as being totally destructive to the wicked, not empowering or edifying as you are suggesting. The “children of light” are the exception to this destructive judgment.

I would like to point out that in the scripture you used, two examples are used.

1. Sudden
2. Travails of a woman with child.

The key is the travails. If you have children, and you hve seen your wife give birth, then you know that the labor pains of child birth are both sudden and long lasting. It is not swift. It comes in waves. Paul was wise in using this term when describing the destruction of the wicked, becuase it is very accurate, and on top of that, it proves Bing's point. The Baby does not just pop out of the mother. The Mother's body has contractions, which build up and build up until the time comes for her to deliver the child into the world. It is not swift, and it is not subtle.

The destruction of the wicked is described in these terms because, like these verses imply, Psalm 2 and Zechariah 14, The wicked are systematicaly destroyed, in the same means as the mother giving birth. First, when the Lord returns, we are taken to him, then He attacks the armies of the earth, then He goes about all of the nations destroying those He oes not want in His kingdom and eventually destroying every last wicked person on the face of the earth. And this is while the main adversary is locked away from the earth, having no influence at all with it.

Score: PSA 1, ASA 0.... just kidding!:pp


Malachi says, "
For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).


Here you have it!!! Isaiah 34:1-4 says, “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

Verses 8-10 continues, “For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

Isaiah describes what occurs at the Second Advent: (1) The heavens shall pass away. (2) The earth shall be burned up. (3) No wicked will survive this day of destruction. Whilst the day of the Lord is undoubtedly the day when the righteous are finally rescued, it is also, significantly, the day when the wicked are totally destroyed. The consistent teaching of Scripture shows us that the Second Coming of the Lord will see the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgment at the Second Coming. It is an all-consummating event. I Thessalonians 5:4 plainly says, of those left behind at the Second Coming, “they shall not escape.” In fact they will be burnt up along with this sin-cursed world. The elements will be melted up and “none shall pass through it for ever and ever” (Isaiah 34:10).

Not so fast there Paul. There are scriptures missing from your account. Let's take a look at them.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, [and] with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. Isaiah 34:5-7

Who's Idumea? Is that not Edom? Is this passage even talking about the end of the world, or for that matter, the second advent? Answer is no. It is talking about God's day of vengeance upon the Edomites, which ws a messy affair. A couple of things caused me to wonder about what Isaiah was talking about.

1. Isaiah uses the term, Unicorn. Isn't that a mythological beast? That's not rooted in any sort of reality, let alone the time of the return of the Lord.

2. The mountains would be pouring out the blood of the people? According to Revelation 16, the mountains are totally destroyed, right along with the islands and the valleys. How is this the return of the Lord when the mountains are still clearly present in this passage?

3. And of course, the fact that you omitted these three verses. I know through much experience that every verse in a passage of prophecy holds significance to the interpretation of that prophecy. Nothing can be omitted and still have the prophecy keep it's accuracy.


Heb 10:27 says,
“a certain fearful looking forof judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Hebrews 10 deals with the backslider who does not repent. It is talking about the people that know that they are doing what is totally against what God wants them to do, this is what they have to look forward to, their own destruction.


Isaiah speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

Here in this reading, Isaiah testifies of the time when he personally, as an Old Testament saint, will be physically resurrected to meet the Lord at His Coming. In doing so, he links this to time when “the earth shall cast out the dead.” Significantly, he relates this climactic resurrection to the dead generally and explains how it corresponds with the great judgment of the wicked, at the end, “for their iniquity.” This occasion plainly embodies all the characteristics of that impending Last Day.

Isaiah describes how this day sees the time when the wicked are raised to be judged, which as we have seen is the very same time that the Old Testament saints are also raised. The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

Now I will agree with this portion here. This passage does describe the Last Day, when God destroys the world and the Day of Judgment has come. It is also the time when the Dragon, whom we now know is actually Satan, will be destroyed. All of these things I agree with you.

However, I do not agree that the Last Day is the Day of the Lord's return. I believe, as I have mentioned in the past, that this day is the day when God the Father rises up and finishes off this world once and for all. This is where Lord Jesus convenes with the dead, as chronicled in Revelation 20, and judge the quick and the dead, all of them, all at once. The righteous are given eternal life, and a place in the New heaven and Earth, while the wicked, including Satan, is hurled into the Second Death, the place of eternal destruction. According to Revelation 20, this happens after the 1000 years without Satan on earth are completed, and the wicked dragon is released from his prison.


Psalm 68: 1-3 declares, "Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.”

Paul[/font]

The idea of thewicked being destroyed is not at issue here. What is the issue, if my understanding is correct, is how long does it take? I must say that I have no reason to accept your view as of this moment that the earth will be destroyed at the Lord's return. So, instead of insulting you, I merely request for more scripture that furthers your POV. I am certain that you have more.

wpm
Apr 6th 2008, 04:40 AM
3H

Good to see you again.



I would like to point out that in the scripture you used, two examples are used.

1. Sudden
2. Travails of a woman with child.

The key is the travails. If you have children, and you hve seen your wife give birth, then you know that the labor pains of child birth are both sudden and long lasting. It is not swift. It comes in waves. Paul was wise in using this term when describing the destruction of the wicked, becuase it is very accurate, and on top of that, it proves Bing's point. The Baby does not just pop out of the mother. The Mother's body has contractions, which build up and build up until the time comes for her to deliver the child into the world. It is not swift, and it is not subtle.

The destruction of the wicked is described in these terms because, like these verses imply, Psalm 2 and Zechariah 14, The wicked are systematicaly destroyed, in the same means as the mother giving birth. First, when the Lord returns, we are taken to him, then He attacks the armies of the earth, then He goes about all of the nations destroying those He oes not want in His kingdom and eventually destroying every last wicked person on the face of the earth. And this is while the main adversary is locked away from the earth, having no influence at all with it.

Score: PSA 1, ASA 0.... just kidding!:pp


Don't get too excited to quick. I think that you are diluting the import of the reading to say something that is not in the text. Let us establish that the "sudden destruction" is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. Secondly, it is saying that the suddeness that the pain of childbirth hits a woman will be like the destruction of the wicked. Nothing more. It is not saying that 'the whole child-birth experience is like the coming of the Lord'. Although I can see why your theology would need such a statement inserted into the text. Frankly, you are doing your best to stretch the judgment out over centuries but it is not in the text. In doing so you are diminishing the sudden nature of the destruction. Sorry I disagree with your commentary.

In my experience, Premil does not take the plain face value meaning of a passage, it has to tamper with it - inserting an additional meaning - in order for that school of thought to fit. That is unsafe. We don't have to import meanings into the text that are not there. We just need to let the Bible speak!



Not so fast there Paul. There are scriptures missing from your account. Let's take a look at them.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, [and] with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. Isaiah 34:5-7

Who's Idumea? Is that not Edom? Is this passage even talking about the end of the world, or for that matter, the second advent? Answer is no. It is talking about God's day of vengeance upon the Edomites, which ws a messy affair. A couple of things caused me to wonder about what Isaiah was talking about.

1. Isaiah uses the term, Unicorn. Isn't that a mythological beast? That's not rooted in any sort of reality, let alone the time of the return of the Lord.

2. The mountains would be pouring out the blood of the people? According to Revelation 16, the mountains are totally destroyed, right along with the islands and the valleys. How is this the return of the Lord when the mountains are still clearly present in this passage?

3. And of course, the fact that you omitted these three verses. I know through much experience that every verse in a passage of prophecy holds significance to the interpretation of that prophecy. Nothing can be omitted and still have the prophecy keep it's accuracy.


All the nations will be destroyed - including Idumea. Men will either be on the left or the right when He appears. Saved or lost - heaven or hell. I don't accept that there are 3 peoples in this world when Jesus appears. No more than there was in Noah's day or in Sodom.

By the way: What mortals enters the Premil millennium and what is their ticket to the new earth?


Hebrews 10 deals with the backslider who does not repent. It is talking about the people that know that they are doing what is totally against what God wants them to do, this is what they have to look forward to, their own destruction.

Right? Where does it say that? The writer of the Hebrews says in Heb 10:27, “a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” There is no qualification like you are inserting into the sacred words. Let the Bible speak for itself.



Now I will agree with this portion here. This passage does describe the Last Day, when God destroys the world and the Day of Judgment has come. It is also the time when the Dragon, whom we now know is actually Satan, will be destroyed. All of these things I agree with you.

However, I do not agree that the Last Day is the Day of the Lord's return. I believe, as I have mentioned in the past, that this day is the day when God the Father rises up and finishes off this world once and for all. This is where Lord Jesus convenes with the dead, as chronicled in Revelation 20, and judge the quick and the dead, all of them, all at once. The righteous are given eternal life, and a place in the New heaven and Earth, while the wicked, including Satan, is hurled into the Second Death, the place of eternal destruction. According to Revelation 20, this happens after the 1000 years without Satan on earth are completed, and the wicked dragon is released from his prison.


This is speaking of the Second Coming. Job is locating himself at this event. He is saying he will be resurrected at the same time that Satan is destroyed and the heavens (and earth) will be destroyed. This reinforces the Amil viewpoint.

Are you saying Job will be in the grave until 1,000yrs+ after the Coming of Christ?


The idea of the wicked being destroyed is not at issue here. What is the issue, if my understanding is correct, is how long does it take? I must say that I have no reason to accept your view as of this moment that the earth will be destroyed at the Lord's return. So, instead of insulting you, I merely request for more scripture that furthers your POV. I am certain that you have more.

It actually says the wicked "perish at the presence of God." This corelatates with repeated Scripture which proves a climactic Coming of Christ.

Again, you reword the scriptural text to something that could allow Premil. The only problem is: it is not in the reading - quite the opposite.

Finally, I noticed you didn't address Psalm 37:9-11. It also reinforces the idea that the wicked cannot survive the Coming of Christ or are they qualified to enter the new earth.


Paul

John146
Apr 7th 2008, 05:12 PM
I would like to point out that in the scripture you used, two examples are used.

1. Sudden
2. Travails of a woman with child.

The key is the travails. If you have children, and you hve seen your wife give birth, then you know that the labor pains of child birth are both sudden and long lasting. It is not swift. It comes in waves. Paul was wise in using this term when describing the destruction of the wicked, becuase it is very accurate, and on top of that, it proves Bing's point. The Baby does not just pop out of the mother. The Mother's body has contractions, which build up and build up until the time comes for her to deliver the child into the world. It is not swift, and it is not subtle.

The destruction of the wicked is described in these terms because, like these verses imply, Psalm 2 and Zechariah 14, The wicked are systematicaly destroyed, in the same means as the mother giving birth. First, when the Lord returns, we are taken to him, then He attacks the armies of the earth, then He goes about all of the nations destroying those He oes not want in His kingdom and eventually destroying every last wicked person on the face of the earth. And this is while the main adversary is locked away from the earth, having no influence at all with it.

Do you believe Revelation 19:15-21 covers a thousand year time period or does it seem to indicate the destruction that comes at the second coming will occur quickly? How about 2 Thess 1:7-9? Jesus compared His second coming to the days of Lot when in one day all the unbelievers in Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed and the days of Noah when all the unbelievers were destroyed in one day. He said about those days, "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." (Luke 17:30).



Now I will agree with this portion here. This passage does describe the Last Day, when God destroys the world and the Day of Judgment has come. It is also the time when the Dragon, whom we now know is actually Satan, will be destroyed. All of these things I agree with you.

However, I do not agree that the Last Day is the Day of the Lord's return. I believe, as I have mentioned in the past, that this day is the day when God the Father rises up and finishes off this world once and for all. This is where Lord Jesus convenes with the dead, as chronicled in Revelation 20, and judge the quick and the dead, all of them, all at once. The righteous are given eternal life, and a place in the New heaven and Earth, while the wicked, including Satan, is hurled into the Second Death, the place of eternal destruction. According to Revelation 20, this happens after the 1000 years without Satan on earth are completed, and the wicked dragon is released from his prison.

You say you don't believe the last day is the day of the Lord's return. What does scripture teach about what will occur on the last day?

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: - John 11:24-25

We see that believers are resurrected on the last day. You believe that believers are resurrected at the second coming of Christ, correct? (1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54). So, this makes a connection between the second coming and the last day. What else happens on the last day?

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. - John 12:48

Unbelievers are judged on the last day. This makes a direct link between the second coming, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment all falling on the last day. There are other scripture passages that also makes this link, including John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 13:24-30,36-43,47-50, Acts 24:15, 2 Timothy 4:1, and Daniel 12:1-2.

third hero
Apr 9th 2008, 03:59 AM
Do you believe Revelation 19:15-21 covers a thousand year time period or does it seem to indicate the destruction that comes at the second coming will occur quickly? How about 2 Thess 1:7-9? Jesus compared His second coming to the days of Lot when in one day all the unbelievers in Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed and the days of Noah when all the unbelievers were destroyed in one day. He said about those days, "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." (Luke 17:30).

No. I believe that Revelation 19:15-21 will happen in one day. It is the rest of the wicked, aka the rest of the beast that is explicitrly mentioned in Daniel 7 that will be given a certqin period of time to live and then they too will die off, as it is mentioned in Zechariah 14. This is the birth pangs part. Remember, the first sign of the birth pangs is the breaking of water. The event where the leaders and the soldiers of the world are anihilated is the breeaking of the water, the very same as a woman about to give birth to a child.


You say you don't believe the last day is the day of the Lord's return. What does scripture teach about what will occur on the last day?

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: - John 11:24-25

We see that believers are resurrected on the last day. You believe that believers are resurrected at the second coming of Christ, correct? (1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54). So, this makes a connection between the second coming and the last day. What else happens on the last day?

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. - John 12:48

Unbelievers are judged on the last day. This makes a direct link between the second coming, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment all falling on the last day. There are other scripture passages that also makes this link, including John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 13:24-30,36-43,47-50, Acts 24:15, 2 Timothy 4:1, and Daniel 12:1-2.

I agree with you that all of those things are going to happen on the last day. However, that does not mean that all of the saints will be raised to life when Christ returns. Notice that in Daniel 7:13-14, it is only mentioned that tens of thousands of people are being judged before Christ is brought to the front and is given the earth? Notice that it also says that in the same passage that the earth wil be given over to the SAINTS? (Verse 22). This does not fit any other portions of scripture except Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20.

According to Revelation 20, a select portion are brought back to life, those who died during the Great Tribulation, which is supported by not only other passages in Revelation (14:13), but also according to the words of Christ (Matthew 20, Luke 17 and other places that had the phrase, "The last shall be first, and the first last"). Go ahead, look it up. Jesus in Mark 10:17-31, He flat out says it.

All of these verses tell me one thing. There are two times when people are resurrected. The tribulation saints at His Return, and everyone else at the last day. I am sure you disagree, but this is my position.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2008, 03:12 PM
No. I believe that Revelation 19:15-21 will happen in one day. It is the rest of the wicked, aka the rest of the beast that is explicitrly mentioned in Daniel 7 that will be given a certqin period of time to live and then they too will die off, as it is mentioned in Zechariah 14. This is the birth pangs part. Remember, the first sign of the birth pangs is the breaking of water. The event where the leaders and the soldiers of the world are anihilated is the breeaking of the water, the very same as a woman about to give birth to a child.



I agree with you that all of those things are going to happen on the last day. However, that does not mean that all of the saints will be raised to life when Christ returns. Notice that in Daniel 7:13-14, it is only mentioned that tens of thousands of people are being judged before Christ is brought to the front and is given the earth? Notice that it also says that in the same passage that the earth wil be given over to the SAINTS? (Verse 22). This does not fit any other portions of scripture except Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20.

According to Revelation 20, a select portion are brought back to life, those who died during the Great Tribulation, which is supported by not only other passages in Revelation (14:13), but also according to the words of Christ (Matthew 20, Luke 17 and other places that had the phrase, "The last shall be first, and the first last"). Go ahead, look it up. Jesus in Mark 10:17-31, He flat out says it.

All of these verses tell me one thing. There are two times when people are resurrected. The tribulation saints at His Return, and everyone else at the last day. I am sure you disagree, but this is my position.

According to the following there are two resurrections, the first is for those that are killed during the reign of the beast, and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Which resurrection do you believe those that died before the reign of the beast are waiting for with regards to the following;

2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Firstfruits

John146
Apr 9th 2008, 07:28 PM
No. I believe that Revelation 19:15-21 will happen in one day. It is the rest of the wicked, aka the rest of the beast that is explicitrly mentioned in Daniel 7 that will be given a certqin period of time to live and then they too will die off, as it is mentioned in Zechariah 14. This is the birth pangs part. Remember, the first sign of the birth pangs is the breaking of water. The event where the leaders and the soldiers of the world are anihilated is the breeaking of the water, the very same as a woman about to give birth to a child.

Again, just as the flood destroyed destroyed all the unbelievers in the world so it will be when Christ returns. Just as the fire and brimstone destroyed all unbelievers in Sodom the day that Lot went out of Sodom, so it will be when Christ returns. That is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:26-30. No unbelievers will survive the second coming of Christ.



I agree with you that all of those things are going to happen on the last day. However, that does not mean that all of the saints will be raised to life when Christ returns. Notice that in Daniel 7:13-14, it is only mentioned that tens of thousands of people are being judged before Christ is brought to the front and is given the earth? Notice that it also says that in the same passage that the earth wil be given over to the SAINTS? (Verse 22). This does not fit any other portions of scripture except Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20. You say that not all of the saints will be resurrected when Christ returns. Then what do you make of the following passages that say otherwise?

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. - 1 Cor 15:51-52





According to Revelation 20, a select portion are brought back to life, those who died during the Great Tribulation, which is supported by not only other passages in Revelation (14:13), but also according to the words of Christ (Matthew 20, Luke 17 and other places that had the phrase, "The last shall be first, and the first last"). Go ahead, look it up. Jesus in Mark 10:17-31, He flat out says it.

All of these verses tell me one thing. There are two times when people are resurrected. The tribulation saints at His Return, and everyone else at the last day. I am sure you disagree, but this is my position.I do disagree, but I think for good reason. You are not understanding what Jesus meant when He said the last would be first and the first would be last. It certainly has nothing to do with suggesting there are two separate physical resurrections of the dead, with one occurring at Christ's return and one happening a thousand plus years later. Look at this passage:

1For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. - Matthew 20:1-16

When Jesus says the last shall be first and the first shall be last, He was saying that regardless of when someone became a Christian or how long one has been a Christian, we all will receive the same reward, which is eternal life. Some of the first who were called thought this was unfair because they did more work than those who were last. But He reminded them that what He offered in the first place was the same thing He offered to everyone else after them. So, how could He have been unfair? In verse 15 He points out that He can do whatever He wants with His own. Who can question that? Then in verse 16 is when He says the last shall be first and the first last.

If you look at the context, the last are the last ones to be called and the first are the first ones to be called. He points out that it doesn't matter when someone was called or how long they have served Him. Everyone receives the same reward. And you should notice that everyone (including the first and the last) receives their reward at the same time (Matt 20:8). That is what the last being first and the first being last is about. His point is that there is no difference between the first and the last. But you create a difference between them by saying only some are worthy to be resurrected at Christ's return and the rest aren't resurrected until after the thousand years.

Bing
Apr 12th 2008, 07:57 PM
Paul,
Thank you kindly for your response. I am forced once again to concede a certain dearth of alacrity on my part, and my lamentable dallying that leaves you yet again wringing your hands and wondering if I have dissolved as thoroughly as the elements you talk about!

I am returned, and I think it best if I look upon our correspondence as the writings of the old-time pamphlet writers. I will endeavour always to reply to your points, however long it might take me. Let us commence.


I Thessalonians 5:2-7 is a case-in-point. It says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.” Now I note that you believe the wicked shall escape, however this conflicts with the sacred pages. You are therefore arguing with clear simple explicit Scripture. The fire that arrives is depicted as being totally destructive to the wicked, not empowering or edifying as you are suggesting. The “children of light” are the exception to this destructive judgment.
wpm, allow me to hold forth with the earnest belief that the Lord our God does not act wickedly. He works all things to the good of those who love Him, and that even the Lake of Fire itself is a good thing for the saints (though plainly not unhappy souls interred therein). I would therefore clarify that I believe God's holy and cleansing fire must be interpreted in a consistent way with the whole Bible. I would point you to Isaiah 33:14-15, where the sinners in Zion wonder who among them can dwell with the God who is a consuming fire, and who among them can dwell with everlasting burnings?

Note that it is the same sinners in Zion who conclude that it is only he who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, and flees from evil, taking solace in repentance and throwing themselves upon the mercy of the Lord. To link this to 1 Thessalonians 5, we must understand that Isaiah is not to be preferred to Paul, and that it is naturally true that sudden destruction will fall upon the wicked. How then do we reconcile this?

We know from Revelation 6 and 9 and 16 what "sudden destruction" looks like. To those who might still repent and turn from their wicked ways, "sudden destruction" is mixed with mercy, and the chance is given for either for recalcitrance or repentance. For those who have hardened themselves immutably to the beck of the Lord, only violent death is given. Why would God change His definition of "sudden destruction"? Indeed, we must conclude that the Lord is unwilling for any to perish, but for all to come to the saving knowledge of God.

The judgement is not simply "destructive", but destructive and wholesome, for it consists of the destruction of sin and wickedness, and those who will not turn from such things. Your assumption that the saints will not be judged is erroneous, and conflicts with 1 Peter 4:17, 1 Corinthians 3, and several other passages. We must not abhor the judgement of the Lord unless we are His enemies. The fear of the Lord is clean and endures forever, and we shall be glad of it when it sponges from us all traces of perverseness and sin, both from our own lives and from the face of the earth in the person of the unrepentantly wicked. I do not believe the wicked shall escape, any more than you can be said to have "escaped" when Jesus bore the death that your own sins merited. I simply believe that Jesus' mercy extends past the point of His second coming, to those that will have it.


Malachi says, "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).
Here we have it indeed! My apologetic above should suffice to explain this verse, with the addendum that this specifies those who do wickedly, and those who are too proud to throw themselves on the Lord's mercy. Admittedly, this will be the overwhelming majority of the people of the earth, yet I have shown you in many discussions prior to this that the Bible describes a remnant left after the judgement; those that are spared and saved after the Lord returns, and go on to be discipled and raised in the Millennial Kingdom under Jesus' direct tutelage (Revelation 14:1).



Here you have it!!! Isaiah 34:1-4 says, “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

Verses 8-10 continues, “For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

Isaiah describes what occurs at the Second Advent: (1) The heavens shall pass away. (2) The earth shall be burned up. (3) No wicked will survive this day of destruction. Whilst the day of the Lord is undoubtedly the day when the righteous are finally rescued, it is also, significantly, the day when the wicked are totally destroyed. The consistent teaching of Scripture shows us that the Second Coming of the Lord will see the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgment at the Second Coming. It is an all-consummating event. I Thessalonians 5:4 plainly says, of those left behind at the Second Coming, “they shall not escape.” In fact they will be burnt up along with this sin-cursed world. The elements will be melted up and “none shall pass through it for ever and ever” (Isaiah 34:10).

I hope you do not believe that the New Earth will be an eternally impassable place of burning streams of pitch whose smoke rises forever! Such a place sounds more horrid than even your caricature of the Millennial Kingdom that you have repeatedly presented in the most dire of lights! If you read Isaiah 34 carefully, you will note that it speaks exclusively of Edom from verse five onwards.

As for the rest of the passage, you will note that the Lord is speaking in a corporate way, and that He is of course not enraged with every individual man and woman of "all nations" - else where would you be (Revelation 7:9)?


Heb 10:27 says, “a certain fearful looking forof judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Again, you seem to make no distinction between those who make themselves adversaries and those who are given grace to ask supplication of the resurrected and returning Lord (Zechariah 12:10)


Isaiah speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

Here in this reading, Isaiah testifies of the time when he personally, as an Old Testament saint, will be physically resurrected to meet the Lord at His Coming. In doing so, he links this to time when “the earth shall cast out the dead.” Significantly, he relates this climactic resurrection to the dead generally and explains how it corresponds with the great judgment of the wicked, at the end, “for their iniquity.” This occasion plainly embodies all the characteristics of that impending Last Day.

Isaiah describes how this day sees the time when the wicked are raised to be judged, which as we have seen is the very same time that the Old Testament saints are also raised. The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

I find this interesting in the extreme, as I believe Isaiah 24-27 to be the clearest picture in the Old Testament of the Millennial Kingdom, and the entire premillennial doctrine in general. Let us look at these passages as a whole, rather than drawing unwarranted assumptions from a few lonely passages divorced from context.

Isaiah 24:1-13 describes the destruction of the earth, with the notation that "few men are left". This is not speaking of the saints, who will be a multitude, but "few men" out of those under the curse, in the midst of their guilty suffering. These are surely saved when the Lord returns, for we next see the universal rejoicing of the people of the earth (v. 14-16). It is on this day that the fallen angels and the wicked men are punished (v. 21), gathered as prisoners in a pit, imprisoned for a while before their punishment.

Isaiah 25:1-5 makes recapitilation of the destruction of the earth, and the wicked kingdoms of the world, as the foundation for the joy found at the consummation of which (v. 6), when the saints stand with the resurrected Lord upon Mount Zion and enjoy the wedding supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9). The resurrection of the saints will take place, and they will be comforted by the Lord (v. 7-8) and the Lord will set up His government in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 26 cannot be a simple declaration that "everything is going to be alright", as you maintain. It is a bizarre mixture of celebration of salvation experienced (eg: verses 2, 5-7, 15) in which the Lord is said to have accomplished all this, and prayer for the Lord to finish the good work He started (eg: verses 8, 10, 12, 16-21), while the entire song is sung after the Lord has done the redemption described in the earlier chapters (verse 1). After this, as you have so rightly said, Leviathan, that great serpent, is given the punishment promised him at the end of Isaiah 24.

I sense potential for an in-depth study of these chapters with you. I beg of you: do not respond here to this particular point. We must begin a new thread with this as its subject.

Anyhow, I feel that I have given at least cursory explanation of these verses. I eagerly await your reply. Take your time, and I will check back whenever I may. God bless, friend.

wpm
Apr 12th 2008, 09:08 PM
Bing


wpm, allow me to hold forth with the earnest belief that the Lord our God does not act wickedly. He works all things to the good of those who love Him, and that even the Lake of Fire itself is a good thing for the saints (though plainly not unhappy souls interred therein). I would therefore clarify that I believe God's holy and cleansing fire must be interpreted in a consistent way with the whole Bible.

I think we would all agree that 'God does not act wickedly'.

I would like you to enlarge upon the above comments.

Also,

Is the fire that falls at Christ's return real literal fire or spiritual fire?

Do you still believe that the fire that falls at Christ's return is the exact same as that Holy Ghost power which fell at Pentecost?

Is the fire that burns in the Lake of Fire real literal fire or spiritual fire?

Paul

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 07:24 PM
I find this interesting in the extreme, as I believe Isaiah 24-27 to be the clearest picture in the Old Testament of the Millennial Kingdom, and the entire premillennial doctrine in general. Let us look at these passages as a whole, rather than drawing unwarranted assumptions from a few lonely passages divorced from context.

Isaiah 24:1-13 describes the destruction of the earth, with the notation that "few men are left". This is not speaking of the saints, who will be a multitude, but "few men" out of those under the curse, in the midst of their guilty suffering. These are surely saved when the Lord returns, for we next see the universal rejoicing of the people of the earth (v. 14-16). It is on this day that the fallen angels and the wicked men are punished (v. 21), gathered as prisoners in a pit, imprisoned for a while before their punishment.

The few men left are those who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord and who are caught up with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. In Luke 18:8, Jesus wonders, "when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?". He seems to imply that He thinks He probably won't find much faith on the earth because He knows what the world will be like at that time.



Isaiah 25:1-5 makes recapitilation of the destruction of the earth, and the wicked kingdoms of the world, as the foundation for the joy found at the consummation of which (v. 6), when the saints stand with the resurrected Lord upon Mount Zion and enjoy the wedding supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9). The resurrection of the saints will take place, and they will be comforted by the Lord (v. 7-8) and the Lord will set up His government in Jerusalem.7And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. - Isaiah 25:7-8

What we should notice is that 1 Corinthians 15:54 quotes the first part of Isaiah 25:8.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

You correctly relate the Isaiah 25:7-8 passage to the resurrection of the saints. But another part of that passage is also quoted in the NT. Notice in Isaiah 25:8 that when death is swallowed up in victory, "the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces". That is quoted here:

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. - Revelation 21:4

When is Isaiah 25:8 fulfilled? We can see from 1 Cor 15:54 it is fulfilled at the second coming of Christ when the resurrection of the dead occurs. We can see from Revelation 21:4, that the verse is also fulfilled at the appearance of the new heavens and new earth. Notice that when God wipes away all tears is the time when there shall be no more death. There is no more death because death has been swallowed up in victory! Compare Isaiah 25:8 with Revelation 21:4 and notice the amazing similarities. Putting these verses together tells me that when Christ returns, the dead are resurrected and the new heavens and new earth appear. There will be no more death from that point on.

Since other scripture tells us that the day of judgment occurs when Christ returns (2 Tim 4:1, Matt 25:31-46), it makes sense that death is cast into the lake of fire at that time (Rev 20:14). So, the resurrection of the dead, the day of judgment and the appearance of the new heavens and new earth when God wipes away the tears from off all faces are all shown to occur at the time when Christ returns. All of this leaves no room for an earthly millennial reign of Christ in between the resurrection of the dead and the appearing of the new heavens and new earth.

Bing
Apr 19th 2008, 11:20 AM
Bing



I think we would all agree that 'God does not act wickedly'.

I would like you to enlarge upon the above comments.

Also,

Is the fire that falls at Christ's return real literal fire or spiritual fire?

Do you still believe that the fire that falls at Christ's return is the exact same as that Holy Ghost power which fell at Pentecost?

Is the fire that burns in the Lake of Fire real literal fire or spiritual fire?

Paul

In specific answers to your questions, I believe that the fire falling at Christ’s return is both physical (that is, fire as we know it, and the same phenomenon that occurs when heat, fuel and oxygen conflagrate) and supernatural (that is, it is holy fire and it is from God, being the same phenomenon perceived in 1 Chronicles 21:26 or 2 Chronicles 7:1, in which supernatural fire burned up natural produce, as one would expect normal fire to do). In short, I plead innocent to any chicanery, and insist that you are looking for dishonest dealing where there is none. I am not trying to invent some implausible scenario where fire is not fire unless it suits my purposes. Let me proceed.

The fire that falls at Christ’s return is the same fire as the Holy Ghost power that fell at Pentecost. Somehow I gather that you do not believe this. I would like to see your grounds for interpreting two different “types” of the fire of God. I also believe that, had any wicked men or women been in that upper room when the Holy Spirit fire fell, they would have perished.

I believe that the fire that burns in the Lake of fire is real literal fire. Here I must interject and correct a persistently nagging misconception on your part. “Literal” is not the opposite of “spiritual”. It could more correctly be paired against the word “allegorical”. For instance, God is Spirit (John 4:24), and therefore God is spiritual. One would be a heretic to claim that God was not literal. Therefore, God is both spiritual and literal, without any contradiction.

I think the question you should be asking is this: are any of the instances of fire, at Christ’s return, at Pentecost, or in the Lake of Fire, allegorical? Of course not! Then are they literal? Are they true? Absolutely. They are also without exception spiritual, as they come out of the burning throne of God, out of the Spirit of God and not out of machinery or regular profane means of igniting fire. At the Second Coming, Jesus does not rub sticks together with brush and kindling, or strike flint to tinder. In this, the fire that precedes and envelopes and accompanies Him is absolutely spiritual: as spiritual as the fire that encompasses the Seraphim, the Burning Ones around His throne.

I fear that your own position leads you to describe the fire that fell at Pentecost as mere “allegory”, or an insubstantial vision. This postulation I cannot abide. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that this was not, in fact, as real as the fire of God always is.

I draw your attention once again to Isaiah 33, with particular reference to verse 14 where the question is asked, “who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?” I hasten to point out again that this is the question asked by the sinners in Zion, at a date when the Lord has returned, and that remedy to their quandary is given in verses 15-17. Nonetheless, the question might rightly be asked of you or I. How can mortal flesh survive, let alone contain the power and awesome glory and might of the indwelling Holy Spirit, fully God dwelling inside sinful humanity? How can you or I dwell with the burning Spirit of God within us? I ask this not to make a mockery of your theology with a sly reply, but as an unanswerable mystery.

It is my belief that any man or woman surviving the Return of Jesus does so only by virtue of His illimitable mercy and grace, just as it was only by the same that sinful and wicked humanity were able to nail God to a tree without being consumed in an instant; just as it is only by the same that you or I survive the fire of God living within us as we stumble weakly and sinfully through life.

By that same token, when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, though the hundred and twenty men and women in the upper room in Jerusalem were indeed righteous, speaking uprightly, despising the gain of oppressions, closing their eyes and ears to evil, they were still fallen humanity, and by rights ought to have been consumed by the majesty and unveiled glory of God in the Spirit.

They were not.

I could allude countless more times to Daniel 3, and the fact that if God wishes to preserve unglorified men from fire, that is His prerogative, and He will do so. I feel that you have given me a much better example in Acts 2. I will also remind you that it is from the throne of God that both a river of fire (Daniel 7:10) and a river of living waters (Revelation 22:1) flow mingled down, and that one can not divide the terror and the beauty of our God.

He is not spiritual or literal; He is both supernatural, spiritual, unreachable, immutable, intangible, ineffable, incredible, invisible, unassailable God, and He is natural, literal, sympathetic, glorified Man, expressing fully the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, suffering death for our sins that we who were once far off might by His blood be welcomed by adoption as sons and heirs to the transcendent God. I see a great deal of conflict in the nature of God, but I assure myself that such is the fault of my perception, and not the fault of His identity.

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 07:33 PM
In specific answers to your questions, I believe that the fire falling at Christ’s return is both physical (that is, fire as we know it, and the same phenomenon that occurs when heat, fuel and oxygen conflagrate) and supernatural (that is, it is holy fire and it is from God, being the same phenomenon perceived in 1 Chronicles 21:26 or 2 Chronicles 7:1, in which supernatural fire burned up natural produce, as one would expect normal fire to do). In short, I plead innocent to any chicanery, and insist that you are looking for dishonest dealing where there is none. I am not trying to invent some implausible scenario where fire is not fire unless it suits my purposes. Let me proceed.

The fire that falls at Christ’s return is the same fire as the Holy Ghost power that fell at Pentecost. Somehow I gather that you do not believe this. I would like to see your grounds for interpreting two different “types” of the fire of God. I also believe that, had any wicked men or women been in that upper room when the Holy Spirit fire fell, they would have perished.

I believe that the fire that burns in the Lake of fire is real literal fire. Here I must interject and correct a persistently nagging misconception on your part. “Literal” is not the opposite of “spiritual”. It could more correctly be paired against the word “allegorical”. For instance, God is Spirit (John 4:24), and therefore God is spiritual. One would be a heretic to claim that God was not literal. Therefore, God is both spiritual and literal, without any contradiction.

I think the question you should be asking is this: are any of the instances of fire, at Christ’s return, at Pentecost, or in the Lake of Fire, allegorical? Of course not! Then are they literal? Are they true? Absolutely. They are also without exception spiritual, as they come out of the burning throne of God, out of the Spirit of God and not out of machinery or regular profane means of igniting fire. At the Second Coming, Jesus does not rub sticks together with brush and kindling, or strike flint to tinder. In this, the fire that precedes and envelopes and accompanies Him is absolutely spiritual: as spiritual as the fire that encompasses the Seraphim, the Burning Ones around His throne.

I fear that your own position leads you to describe the fire that fell at Pentecost as mere “allegory”, or an insubstantial vision. This postulation I cannot abide. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that this was not, in fact, as real as the fire of God always is.

I draw your attention once again to Isaiah 33, with particular reference to verse 14 where the question is asked, “who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?” I hasten to point out again that this is the question asked by the sinners in Zion, at a date when the Lord has returned, and that remedy to their quandary is given in verses 15-17. Nonetheless, the question might rightly be asked of you or I. How can mortal flesh survive, let alone contain the power and awesome glory and might of the indwelling Holy Spirit, fully God dwelling inside sinful humanity? How can you or I dwell with the burning Spirit of God within us? I ask this not to make a mockery of your theology with a sly reply, but as an unanswerable mystery.

It is my belief that any man or woman surviving the Return of Jesus does so only by virtue of His illimitable mercy and grace, just as it was only by the same that sinful and wicked humanity were able to nail God to a tree without being consumed in an instant; just as it is only by the same that you or I survive the fire of God living within us as we stumble weakly and sinfully through life.

By that same token, when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, though the hundred and twenty men and women in the upper room in Jerusalem were indeed righteous, speaking uprightly, despising the gain of oppressions, closing their eyes and ears to evil, they were still fallen humanity, and by rights ought to have been consumed by the majesty and unveiled glory of God in the Spirit.

They were not.

I could allude countless more times to Daniel 3, and the fact that if God wishes to preserve unglorified men from fire, that is His prerogative, and He will do so. I feel that you have given me a much better example in Acts 2. I will also remind you that it is from the throne of God that both a river of fire (Daniel 7:10) and a river of living waters (Revelation 22:1) flow mingled down, and that one can not divide the terror and the beauty of our God.

He is not spiritual or literal; He is both supernatural, spiritual, unreachable, immutable, intangible, ineffable, incredible, invisible, unassailable God, and He is natural, literal, sympathetic, glorified Man, expressing fully the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, suffering death for our sins that we who were once far off might by His blood be welcomed by adoption as sons and heirs to the transcendent God. I see a great deal of conflict in the nature of God, but I assure myself that such is the fault of my perception, and not the fault of His identity.

There is literal spiritual fire that empowers someone, which I have felt in my Christian walk, and literal natural fire than consumes. These two are completely different. To equate the two is an obvious error, apart from the fact both are from God, and shows a flawed concept of spiritual language in Scripture. It is wrong to identify the fire that fell at Pentecost upon God’s people with the fire that will fall upon the wicked at Christ’s return. They are two different types of fire. One is spiritual and the other is literal. However, they are both equally real. They are no more synonymous than the “rivers of living water” that were described by Christ to “flow” from the “belly” of the believer in John 7:37-39 are the same as the waters that destroyed all the wicked in Noah. Your insistence upon a hyper-literalist approach on this totally nullifies the meaning of many passages like this.

Do you imagine that all the goats that saturate the Premil new earth are empowered with Pentecostal fire???

Paul

John146
Apr 20th 2008, 04:36 AM
In specific answers to your questions, I believe that the fire falling at Christ’s return is both physical (that is, fire as we know it, and the same phenomenon that occurs when heat, fuel and oxygen conflagrate) and supernatural (that is, it is holy fire and it is from God, being the same phenomenon perceived in 1 Chronicles 21:26 or 2 Chronicles 7:1, in which supernatural fire burned up natural produce, as one would expect normal fire to do). In short, I plead innocent to any chicanery, and insist that you are looking for dishonest dealing where there is none. I am not trying to invent some implausible scenario where fire is not fire unless it suits my purposes. Let me proceed.

The fire that falls at Christ’s return is the same fire as the Holy Ghost power that fell at Pentecost. Somehow I gather that you do not believe this. I would like to see your grounds for interpreting two different “types” of the fire of God. I also believe that, had any wicked men or women been in that upper room when the Holy Spirit fire fell, they would have perished.

I believe that the fire that burns in the Lake of fire is real literal fire. Here I must interject and correct a persistently nagging misconception on your part. “Literal” is not the opposite of “spiritual”. It could more correctly be paired against the word “allegorical”. For instance, God is Spirit (John 4:24), and therefore God is spiritual. One would be a heretic to claim that God was not literal. Therefore, God is both spiritual and literal, without any contradiction.

I think the question you should be asking is this: are any of the instances of fire, at Christ’s return, at Pentecost, or in the Lake of Fire, allegorical? Of course not! Then are they literal? Are they true? Absolutely. They are also without exception spiritual, as they come out of the burning throne of God, out of the Spirit of God and not out of machinery or regular profane means of igniting fire. At the Second Coming, Jesus does not rub sticks together with brush and kindling, or strike flint to tinder. In this, the fire that precedes and envelopes and accompanies Him is absolutely spiritual: as spiritual as the fire that encompasses the Seraphim, the Burning Ones around His throne.

I fear that your own position leads you to describe the fire that fell at Pentecost as mere “allegory”, or an insubstantial vision. This postulation I cannot abide. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that this was not, in fact, as real as the fire of God always is.

I draw your attention once again to Isaiah 33, with particular reference to verse 14 where the question is asked, “who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?” I hasten to point out again that this is the question asked by the sinners in Zion, at a date when the Lord has returned, and that remedy to their quandary is given in verses 15-17. Nonetheless, the question might rightly be asked of you or I. How can mortal flesh survive, let alone contain the power and awesome glory and might of the indwelling Holy Spirit, fully God dwelling inside sinful humanity? How can you or I dwell with the burning Spirit of God within us? I ask this not to make a mockery of your theology with a sly reply, but as an unanswerable mystery.

It is my belief that any man or woman surviving the Return of Jesus does so only by virtue of His illimitable mercy and grace, just as it was only by the same that sinful and wicked humanity were able to nail God to a tree without being consumed in an instant; just as it is only by the same that you or I survive the fire of God living within us as we stumble weakly and sinfully through life.

By that same token, when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, though the hundred and twenty men and women in the upper room in Jerusalem were indeed righteous, speaking uprightly, despising the gain of oppressions, closing their eyes and ears to evil, they were still fallen humanity, and by rights ought to have been consumed by the majesty and unveiled glory of God in the Spirit.

They were not.

I could allude countless more times to Daniel 3, and the fact that if God wishes to preserve unglorified men from fire, that is His prerogative, and He will do so. I feel that you have given me a much better example in Acts 2. I will also remind you that it is from the throne of God that both a river of fire (Daniel 7:10) and a river of living waters (Revelation 22:1) flow mingled down, and that one can not divide the terror and the beauty of our God.

He is not spiritual or literal; He is both supernatural, spiritual, unreachable, immutable, intangible, ineffable, incredible, invisible, unassailable God, and He is natural, literal, sympathetic, glorified Man, expressing fully the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, suffering death for our sins that we who were once far off might by His blood be welcomed by adoption as sons and heirs to the transcendent God. I see a great deal of conflict in the nature of God, but I assure myself that such is the fault of my perception, and not the fault of His identity.

Well, that was as clear as mud. So, let's try to clear things up a bit. Do you believe that all the sinful things of the world (sinful books, magazines and videos, crackhouses, brothels, Muslim mosques, bars, strip clubs, etc.) will not be literally burned up when Christ returns? In other words, do you believe that those things will remain or literally be set on fire and burned up? How about the wicked/unbelievers? Will any of them be destroyed by literal fire when Christ returns, in your opinion? If so, then why not all of them?

Merton
Apr 20th 2008, 10:16 AM
Let me say a word or two in reply to this post --

Hi John 146.



Again, just as the flood destroyed destroyed all the unbelievers in the world so it will be when Christ returns. Just as the fire and brimstone destroyed all unbelievers in Sodom the day that Lot went out of Sodom, so it will be when Christ returns. That is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:26-30. No unbelievers will survive the second coming of Christ.


Please read the scriptures again. It seems that holding to a particular view can color ones judgment and hinders ones progress.

Lot and his daughters survived the destruction of Sodom as did thousands of people who were not living in Sodom.

The warning concerning Lots wife is not to turn back and follow ones own heart.

In the time of Noah, 8 persons lived on into the cleansed earth besides much life which did not know their right hand from their left.



You say that not all of the saints will be resurrected when Christ returns. Then what do you make of the following passages that say otherwise?

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29



The verse refers to the resurrection at the last judgment and not to the first resurrection at Christs appearing.

Just look at the qualification to be in the resurrection of life. This is the sheep/goat judgment also know as the great white throne judgment.

There are no resurrections of anyone to damnation at the return of Christ to raise the saints.

There is the punishment and the destroying of all living who do not obey the message of the 3 angels of Rev.14.


Let us not confuse the message of the workers in the vineyard with the message of varying rewards depending on ones degree of faithfulness to Christ in this age which are different and justly so.

Merton.

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 09:31 PM
Let me say a word or two in reply to this post --

Hi John 146.

Please read the scriptures again. It seems that holding to a particular view can color ones judgment and hinders ones progress.

I agree with that, but I disagree with whose judgment is clouded here.



Lot and his daughters survived the destruction of Sodom as did thousands of people who were not living in Sodom.

The warning concerning Lots wife is not to turn back and follow ones own heart.

In the time of Noah, 8 persons lived on into the cleansed earth besides much life which did not know their right hand from their left.

Right. Only believers in Sodom survived and only believers survived the flood. That is my point. So it will be when Christ returns (Luke 17:30).



The verse refers to the resurrection at the last judgment and not to the first resurrection at Christs appearing.

Matthew 25:31-46 shows that the resurrection at Christ's appearing is the resurrection of the last judgment.



Just look at the qualification to be in the resurrection of life. This is the sheep/goat judgment also know as the great white throne judgment.

There are no resurrections of anyone to damnation at the return of Christ to raise the saints.

Really? So, how do all the sheep and goats get to be before Christ when He returns, as depicted in Matthew 25:31-46? Is that a judgment only of people who happen to be alive when He returns? I don't believe so. I believe it is clearly the day of judgment and it says it will happen when He comes in glory with His angels.



There is the punishment and the destroying of all living who do not obey the message of the 3 angels of Rev.14.

Yes. That occurs when Christ returns (see 2 Thess 1:7-10).



Let us not confuse the message of the workers in the vineyard with the message of varying rewards depending on ones degree of faithfulness to Christ in this age which are different and justly so.

Merton.

I don't believe I'm doing that.

wombat
Apr 23rd 2008, 08:45 PM
(2) How can sinful mortals even inherit the new earth in their corrupt state?


Hello! I see there are many, many responses here to your question, and I tried to scan through them to get a feel for what has been said already, but please forgive me if I repeat someone else's statement. I think that the issue may be resolved by an understanding that there are two events here, not just one. There is a 1000-year reign of Christ, during which the saints reign with Jesus on this earth, reigning over the survivors of Armageddon. There is also, after this, the final judgment day, and then the creation of the new heavens and new earth. Some verses that might clarify this are Revelation 20:1-6 (speaking about Satan being bound in chains for 1000 years while Jesus and His saints reign over the world), Revelation 20:7-10 (speaking about the end of the 1000 years when Satan is let loose one last time and deceives the nations so they besiege God's Holy People, after which God finally gets rid of Satan for good), Revelation 20:11-15 (speaking about the final judgment in which all of the world's evil people from all times are sent into the lake of fire), and Revelation 21:1-5 (speaking about the new heaven and new earth and the city of New Jerusalem). The Bible seems to indicate that during the 1000-year reign of Jesus, the world will be a much-improved place. For instance, there will be no wars, there will be true justice, the wildlife will be tamed, crops will be abundant for food, and people will have very long lifespans. But, in spite of these things, the survivors of Armageddon will not necessarily be holy people. For instance, there will be a requirement for all nations to go to Jerusalem each year to take part in worship of God (Zechariah 14:16-19), and there will apparently be some nations who will refuse to do this. God says He will punish them by witholding rain on their nations, which would cause their farms to not produce well. The Bible also says that there are some places in this world that will be forever desolate because of the judgments that befall them during the course of the Tribulation. For example, Isaiah 13:19-20 speaks of Babylon never rising again, and Isaiah 34:10 speaks of Edom's land being deserted from generation to generation. So this is not yet a perfect world, even though Jesus' rule with His saints is a time of peace, safety, and abundance. It is when the new heaven and new earth are formed that we will have a completely perfect universe, and only those who are God's believers will inherit this. Isaiah 65:17 says God will create a new heavens and new earth so wonderful that no one will even think about the old ones anymore. This takes place after the final judgment, so only those who are God's holy people are allowed to live in it. Sounds pretty exciting to me! I can't wait to see it!