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Mike33
Feb 27th 2008, 09:13 PM
I'm pretty close to leaving the Catholic Church. The older I get, I just cant go along with its teachings....calling our priest "father", the whole Mary thing, the list goes on and on. Any advice would be welcome. Mods, if this is on the wrong board, sorry. Thank you all so much in advance.

Jerome1
Feb 27th 2008, 09:18 PM
What age are you if you don't mind me asking, have you ever studied your faith more closely?

Mike33
Feb 27th 2008, 09:21 PM
I'm 36. I went to Catholic School K-5, went through confirmation, all that. The more I analyze it, the more I realize, I just cant do it anymore. Its really starting to weigh on me.

threebigrocks
Feb 27th 2008, 09:22 PM
I'm 36. I went to Catholic School K-5, went through confirmation, all that. The more I analyze it, the more I realize, I just cant do it anymore. Its really starting to weigh on me.

If the Spirit is moving you to move, then you need to heed it.

Athanasius
Feb 27th 2008, 10:21 PM
I'm pretty close to leaving the Catholic Church. The older I get, I just cant go along with its teachings....calling our priest "father", the whole Mary thing, the list goes on and on. Any advice would be welcome. Mods, if this is on the wrong board, sorry. Thank you all so much in advance.

I'm in full support :P

Gods*girl73
Feb 27th 2008, 10:25 PM
I agree. If it is weighing on you, you must seek the will of the Lord. I attend a non denominational church for the simple reason of only following God and not a man made religion. We only use the Bible, Gods Holy words, to instruct our lives. We only need to go to God. Jesus made that possible on the cross 2000 years ago, he is the only mediator we need to talk God. I hope that helps some.

RoadWarrior
Feb 27th 2008, 10:25 PM
I'm pretty close to leaving the Catholic Church. The older I get, I just cant go along with its teachings....calling our priest "father", the whole Mary thing, the list goes on and on. Any advice would be welcome. Mods, if this is on the wrong board, sorry. Thank you all so much in advance.

I have a few friends who went through the same step. Actually, most people who learn the truth about these things find themselves in your situation - they have to leave. This is true not only of the Catholic Church, but any church that is teaching things that distract from learning truth.

May the Lord lead you by His righteous right hand, to the place you need to be.

Athanasius
Feb 28th 2008, 12:10 AM
Mike, I'd actually learn for yourself what scripture teaches :P
Churches tend to be run by men ;(

Jerome1
Feb 28th 2008, 12:48 AM
Goes for everyone, anyone and everything I encounter who claims to be a teacher and represent a Christian world view.

Even if we leave it up to others to explain the more difficult portions of scripture. I believe it's also our duty to make sure that what they've taught is in line with scripture as a whole.

I agree, and ofcourse praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit will help us discern what is the truth(John14:26)

And we know that the Holy Spirit cannot give us two conflicting messages.

MessiahsFollower
Feb 28th 2008, 01:01 AM
If the doctrine is not what you agree with you should leave.

Mike33
Feb 28th 2008, 01:12 AM
Thank you all so much. I guess my true faith is pretty basic. I just believe in trying to follow the Ten Commandments and "do unto others."

RoadWarrior
Feb 28th 2008, 01:21 AM
Thank you all so much. I guess my true faith is pretty basic. I just believe in trying to follow the Ten Commandments and "do unto others."

How much Bible study do you do, Mike? How well do you know Jesus, and His character? Do you know how to study the Bible for yourself? If you need an online Bible, go to Biblegateway.com and check it out.

When you learn to study the Bible for yourself, you are on your way to real freedom. Jesus said if we abide in His words, in Him, we will know the Truth, and will be free indeed.

Try reading the book of John.

May the Lord lead you!

Mike33
Feb 28th 2008, 01:30 AM
I very rarely read the Bible. Occasionally, I may google a scripture or two..I still feel that my love for Jesus is strong, and I want to join him in Heaven someday.....I just can't go along with Catholic teachings anymore. Gosh, I'm realizing that I really dont know scripture at all!

Athanasius
Feb 28th 2008, 01:33 AM
I very rarely read the Bible. Occasionally, I may google a scripture or two..I still feel that my love for Jesus is strong, and I want to join him in Heaven someday.....I just can't go along with Catholic teachings anymore.

Suggestion, start reading that Bible ;)

threebigrocks
Feb 28th 2008, 01:34 AM
I very rarely read the Bible. Occasionally, I may google a scripture or two..I still feel that my love for Jesus is strong, and I want to join him in Heaven someday.....I just can't go along with Catholic teachings anymore.

Listen to what the Spirit is telling you, take it all up in prayer often (as in several times a day) and ask that knowledge be given to you.

Please do get into scripture, the knowledge the Spirit will show you in there is limitless! If we don't know what God's word says we cannot discern what is of Him and what is not.

Continue to love and trust in the Lord.

RoadWarrior
Feb 28th 2008, 02:11 AM
I very rarely read the Bible. Occasionally, I may google a scripture or two..I still feel that my love for Jesus is strong, and I want to join him in Heaven someday.....I just can't go along with Catholic teachings anymore. Gosh, I'm realizing that I really dont know scripture at all!

Some of us are doing a study in Mark in the New In Christ forum. Feel free to check it out. We are pretty far along, but you can easily jump in where we are. It's a pretty simple way to study the Bible, just looking to see what the scripture actually says.

Rullion Green
Feb 28th 2008, 12:24 PM
Hi Mike

I went through the same experience a few months ago, I was a catholic also but like so many others looking for real truth and knowledge it seemed to me there was a veil keeping me in the dark. I did not truly know Jesus was or the gospel message.

I live in the west of Scotland in Glasgow and there is a lot of bad feeling between protestants and catholics but i had to put my issues aside and try to find the truth, i thought i was the first person to leave the catholic church in the history of the world lol ! It's more common than you think, it's pretty simple looking back the truth is in the Bible :pp i used the King James. It took a lot of study on my part, a good place to start is looking where the catholic Bible came from and the subtracting of the text the Alexandrian scholars did to it. One of the obvious ones is the 2nd commandment. Your are in for a lot of shocks my friend Good luck and God bless

Mike33
Feb 28th 2008, 12:56 PM
One of the obvious ones is the 2nd commandment. Your are in for a lot of shocks my friend Good luck and God bless


Exactly. Thats the one thats really killing me. They claim to pray for the intercession of Mary and the Saints, but then you hear someone casually talking about "praying to Saint whomever." :B

revrobor
Feb 28th 2008, 05:33 PM
I'm pretty close to leaving the Catholic Church. The older I get, I just cant go along with its teachings....calling our priest "father", the whole Mary thing, the list goes on and on. Any advice would be welcome. Mods, if this is on the wrong board, sorry. Thank you all so much in advance.

There is no salvation in any religious organization, not the Roman Catholic church, not the Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Pentacostal or any other religious organization. Salvation is in Jesus Christ and it is to Him we owe our allegiance. The RC church, as well as others, is filled with erroneous doctrine and teachings. Ask God to guide you to a fellowship (it may be a small home group) as we need to fellowship with other believers for strength and growth. But we don't need to be part of any religious organization.

Rullion Green
Feb 28th 2008, 08:17 PM
Exactly. Thats the one thats really killing me. They claim to pray for the intercession of Mary and the Saints, but then you hear someone casually talking about "praying to Saint whomever." :B


I know what your saying Mike, i've got a friend who carried a little laminated prayer of Saint Whoever and he thinks it will protect him from dying when he takes drugs :eek:

i challenged him on it and asked what can that dead person do for him and how can that man you confess your sin to forgive them ? He has no answer as you could guse. He has just fallen into superstition and idolatry wich is why the took out the second commandment. Oh it's so fustrating to see my friends and family decieved !

Mike33
Feb 28th 2008, 09:13 PM
Also, my brother left the Church about 5+ years ago. He has not uttered a word about talking me into this. I finally came to him last week to discuss it. Oh, and here's the kicker...my daughter takes her First Holy Communion this May. I'm going to stick around the Church at least until then. After that, I will see whats out there for me. Obviously, its something my wife and I must agree on and pursue together.

Rullion Green
Feb 28th 2008, 10:24 PM
Also, my brother left the Church about 5+ years ago. He has not uttered a word about talking me into this. I finally came to him last week to discuss it. Oh, and here's the kicker...my daughter takes her First Holy Communion this May. I'm going to stick around the Church at least until then. After that, I will see whats out there for me. Obviously, its something my wife and I must agree on and pursue together.

I dont really understand your situation friend, it seems you have trouble with the catholic religon and some of the practices as i had, i eventually realised that i had no belief in the ways and practices of the religon when i eventually read the Bible and compared both. No one could have persuaded me to leave the Church a year ago.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

This verse pretty much explains why i left, Salvation is of the Lord not man, not even the pope, it seems the Lord is drawing you also and opening your eyes. Can i ask you a question ?

could you explain the Gospel of Jesus Christ ?

I only ask because in 32 years of catholisisim i didn't know it. Hope you dont take offence its an honest question friend and were all the answers are found for mans salvation. Hope you continue to pray about this God Bless and forgive me if i offended you with the question.

Mike33
Feb 29th 2008, 12:29 AM
I dont really understand your situation friend, it seems you have trouble with the catholic religon and some of the practices as i had, i eventually realised that i had no belief in the ways and practices of the religon when i eventually read the Bible and compared both. No one could have persuaded me to leave the Church a year ago.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

This verse pretty much explains why i left, Salvation is of the Lord not man, not even the pope, it seems the Lord is drawing you also and opening your eyes. Can i ask you a question ?

could you explain the Gospel of Jesus Christ ?

I only ask because in 32 years of catholisisim i didn't know it. Hope you dont take offence its an honest question friend and were all the answers are found for mans salvation. Hope you continue to pray about this God Bless and forgive me if i offended you with the question.


Nobunga, its sounds like you totally understand my situation. It seems that all the criticisms of the Catholic faith that I used to refute are all true. No, I'll bet I couldn't properly explain the Gospel. I always assumed it was a reading that we could apply to our daily lives. Sadly, I can't remember the last time I left a Catholic Mass feeling good about myself. No offense taken whatsoever....you're gonna have to work harder than that to offend me...:lol:


So, to you folks go to church, or just study scripture?

Rullion Green
Feb 29th 2008, 11:05 AM
Nobunga, its sounds like you totally understand my situation. It seems that all the criticisms of the Catholic faith that I used to refute are all true. No, I'll bet I couldn't properly explain the Gospel. I always assumed it was a reading that we could apply to our daily lives. Sadly, I can't remember the last time I left a Catholic Mass feeling good about myself. No offense taken whatsoever....you're gonna have to work harder than that to offend me...:lol:


So, to you folks go to church, or just study scripture?

lol i totaly understand and it's good to talk to you brother :)
my family are still catholic althoguth they dont go to mass much, it's a hard situation.

When i went to mass i came out feeling good for about an hour because i made the effort to go lol, half the mass was in Latin and all the traditions involved in the mass i didn't understand, and seemed i was putting my hand in my pocket every 15 mins for the plate for polish for the golden doors at the vaticant lol, i never learned anything, i was just going through the motions.

I found it hard in my area to find a Bible believing chruch, i just started studying the Bible on my own first with the help of internet sites and listening to sermons by preachers preaching the Bible, got so much to say to you :) But you have to study and come to your own conclusion, i can give you some helpfull links that i used.

If you get a spare hour, have a look at this link its a preacher called Paul Washer preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8528778376316121975 (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8528778376316121975)

My advise would be to study the Bible first before you find a church so you can know if your not just jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. The Bible is the ultimite authority ! we grew up in a system were the Bible was hidden from us and replaced by traditions of men, so try to study so you can tell what is Biblical and whats not.
Anything i can do for you just let me know mike :)

This is a fromer catholic priest Richard Bennett talking, he has a burden and a passion for catholic people to bring them to the truth, you may find it interesting

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7447045845987301148&q=the+apostles+duration%3Along&total=196&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6

daughter
Feb 29th 2008, 11:47 AM
Hey there.

I know what you are feeling. I was raised Catholic, worked as an interpreter at Lourdes a few summers while a teenager, to learn languages for my degree etc. At university I was the Catholic rep for my college, organised a few events. But I got myself in trouble at university, because I realised that mariology etc wasn't consistent with the Bible. Instead of repenting I used it as an excuse to slide sideways into open witchcraft, and I ended up a practising witch for over ten years.

When I became Christian it was a real shock and wrench to realise that the faith I'd been raised in was first cousin to witchcraft. Sorry to offend any Catholics out there... I'm talking about my experience. It was partly superstitions in my family... but the whole praying to saints to intercede thing is so close to necromancy that it's not funny. I know not all Catholics pray to saints, or even ask them to intercede.

But most that I know do... if they pray at all.

You read your bible, pray as the spirit guides you, and love God with all your heart, and soul, and strength.

Sold Out
Feb 29th 2008, 08:26 PM
Thank you all so much. I guess my true faith is pretty basic. I just believe in trying to follow the Ten Commandments and "do unto others."

When did you accept Christ as Savior - your 'spiritual birthday'?

Mike33
Feb 29th 2008, 08:54 PM
I've always accepted Christ as my saviour. My faith is just evolving, and I'm trying to find my new spiritual life. That probably didnt make any sense at all.

Jerome1
Feb 29th 2008, 10:56 PM
A lot of people leave the catholic church and a lot of converts enter it, i wouldn't be allowed to quote them as that would be considered promoting catholic doctrines, which isn't allowed on this site.

One thing i would be wary of when investigating the catholic church are anti-catholic sites. Check out both sides of the story before you draw any conclusions. Drawing conclusions without proper study is to remain willfully ignorant in my opinion.

turtledove
Feb 29th 2008, 11:23 PM
May the Lord lead you by His righteous right hand, to the place you need to be.

:amen: to that RoadWarrior. Mike33, My prayers for guidance from the Spirit for you as you consider taking this step. I pray for unity with your wife regarding whatever you decide. In the Name of Jesus,

Peace and blessings.

RobbieP
Mar 3rd 2008, 03:17 PM
I've always accepted Christ as my saviour. My faith is just evolving, and I'm trying to find my new spiritual life. That probably didnt make any sense at all.

Mike,
I was raised Catholic as well. If somebody had asked if Jesus was my saviour I too would have said yes.

I've listed some verses that explain the key to true salvation and truly accepting Christ as your only way to the Father. You had mentioned earlier you follow the 10 commandments and treat other men well. The Catholic Church, for whatever reason, although they have the same Word, do not encourage folks to get 'saved'. As I understood it, the fact Christ died for all mankind had me covered, as it were. That simply is not enough. Knowing of Christ is not the same as humbling yourself and calling out for Him to save you. I apologize if you fully understood the difference but I took the chance because the difference between knowing of Christ and knowing Christ is the difference between heaven and hell.


Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin.
We were born under the power of sin's control.
- Admit that you are a sinner. Not one of us is good enough to stand before our Holy God.


Romans 6:23a "...The wages of sin is death..."
Sin has an ending. It results in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of sin. But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity. The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever. It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain.
- Understand that you deserve death for your sin.


Romans 6:23b "...But the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Salvation is a free gift from God to you! You can't
earn this gift, but you must reach out and receive it.
- Ask God to forgive you and save you. You can't earn it in any way, no sacrement, no good deed is enough to get us to Heaven


Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in
that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"
When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life. He did all this because He loved us and gave Himself for us!
- Give your life to God... His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change. His love bought you out of being a slave to sin. His love is what saves you -- not religion, or church membership. God loves you! He gave us a free gift, but a gift must be accepted to be a gift.


Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"
- Call out to God in the name of Jesus!


Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
- If you know that God is knocking on your heart's door,
ask Him to come into your heart.



Mike, I hope you can see the difference from being good and asking our Lord to save you. It is a free gift, but it is so important that you ask for it. I recently asked a friend to ask her priest about salvation and he told her she was just fine because she was a good person. The bible as outlined above, (and is no different in the Catholic bible) clearly states you must admit you can't do it yourself, only asking Him to save you


Again, please forgive me if you knew all this.........................


It is so critical for you and your family to really understand the difference.



Humbly,
Robin

brakelite
Mar 4th 2008, 08:50 AM
I also was raised and educated in the catholic church. I was 23 when a friend asked me this question. "Do you really think your life, and the way you are leading it, is acceptable to God?'. That very night I asked Jesus into my life and surrendered to Him. I mean, I gave Him everything. The full right to do with me as He liked. Change me into the kind of person that I needed to be. I knew it was up to Him 'cos my life was a mess. But He accepted the challenge, and 30 years later, I can look back and rejoice and with much gratitude thank Him for becoming the close and personal friend and Savior He is today.

(At the end of mass the following sunday I told the local priest of my new-found faith. He looked at me as if I was threatening to pluck his beard. I realised right then that he didn't have a clue what I was talking about. I never went back.)

I understand that when the Bible is such a strange book, all you have to go by is what is taught by the church. And most in the church, including the priests, are as ignorant of the Bible as you are. What the church corporate does know however is that the Bible reveals the church's errors, which is why they reserve for themselves the sole right to teach it and interpret it. The only way any church can retain it's membership when truth isn't taught, is by fear. Statements like "only through us can you find true salvation", and "the pope is the only true leader of Christianity" and many other such examples are designed to make you fear that if you leave the church, you lose any hope of salvation. This is a lie, for your salvation comes through, and only through Jesus Christ. He is the only mediator between God and man. He is a direct link to the Father.

Your suspicion of Mariolatry and the saints etc is well founded. If there is one thing I would strongly recommend (there are many actually but I won't overload you LOL) and that is to pray. Pray like you have never prayed before. Not the repetitive hail mary's and our fathers etc taught by the church but heartfelt, gut wrenching, earnest, genuine reaching out to Jesus.
Ask Him to turn your life around and lead you to the truth. And then simply trust Him to do just that, and He will.

And then the next day do it over, and then every day after that and you will soon find that 'hey, I know the King of the universe personally and HE LOVES ME!!! :pp" Jesus said that if we ask anything of the Father in the name of Jesus, He will do it. Not because He is your servant, no, but because He is your Dad.

Pray also for your family. Pray for unity. Pray for your marriage. God will hear and answer. Don't be afraid. You are not on you own. Many have taken the step you are contemplating and are today rejoicing in their new found freedom and in their relationship with Jesus.

God bless my brother
Brakelite

Mike33
Mar 10th 2008, 12:26 PM
Great post brakelite, and everyone else. I just have to figure out when to make my move. As fate would have it, my daughter is going through here First Holy Communion this spring, and of course I must guide her through that. I'll just ride things out and be respectful of the Church, knowing that I am moving in the right direction. The funny thing is, since I started this thread, I've never felt better.

Jerome1
Mar 17th 2008, 07:50 PM
I forgot about this thread, brakelite I have a question for you, are you saying that you felt the Holy Spirit lead you away from the RCC in prayer?

Because when i earnestly prayed for understanding of doctrines that i didn't understand i felt that the Holy Spirit gave me a greater understanding of the doctrines i didn't fully comprehend.

brakelite
Mar 17th 2008, 08:55 PM
I forgot about this thread, brakelite I have a question for you, are you saying that you felt the Holy Spirit lead you away from the RCC in prayer?

Because when i earnestly prayed for understanding of doctrines that i didn't understand i felt that the Holy Spirit gave me a greater understanding of the doctrines i didn't fully comprehend.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I trusted God to do just as He promised. I didn't know this verse at the time as I had never touched a Bible ever before. But that doesn't make it any less true. I surrendered to the Lord, and gave Him everything. That the truth led away from the RCC is incidental to where it led to. Jeus said in order to enter the kingdom of heaven we must be willing to leave behind even our families if necessary. Leaving one church for another to me was not easy, it came with certain amounts of apprehension, but as I continued to trust the leading of God through His Spirit He allayed my fears and gave me peace.

He continues to do so to this day. And maybe, where I am isn't the final stop on the journey. But I can be assured that wherever He leads He is with me every step of the way.

Jerome1
Mar 17th 2008, 09:24 PM
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I trusted God to do just as He promised. I didn't know this verse at the time as I had never touched a Bible ever before. But that doesn't make it any less true. I surrendered to the Lord, and gave Him everything. That the truth led away from the RCC is incidental to where it led to. Jeus said in order to enter the kingdom of heaven we must be willing to leave behind even our families if necessary. Leaving one church for another to me was not easy, it came with certain amounts of apprehension, but as I continued to trust the leading of God through His Spirit He allayed my fears and gave me peace.

He continues to do so to this day. And maybe, where I am isn't the final stop on the journey. But I can be assured that wherever He leads He is with me every step of the way.

Just to confirm what you are saying, are you saying that the Holy Spirit lead you away from the RCC?

MrAnteater
Mar 17th 2008, 10:52 PM
Like many of you, I was also raised Catholic and couldn't wait to be done with it when I made my conformation! Fast forward almost 20+ years later and I returned to Christ in a non-denominational church.

In my opinion the Catholic religion focuses too much on laws and works rather than getting it's members to connect to Jesus. Not saying everyone who is Catholic feels that way, but that is how the experience felt to me.

Check out some other Christians churches. Make sure they are bible based, believe Jesus is the only way to salvation, and pass the smell test. When I say pass the smell test there are some "Christian" churches that will tell you hell isn't real or only focus on the love of God and don't teach of his justice against sin. A good Christian church is going to make you really think about worldly views and repentance of sin in addition to the love of Jesus.

cheech
Mar 17th 2008, 11:18 PM
I am yet another who was Catholic for over 30 years before changing. I went through Parochial schools from K-12. I totally believed in Christ and loved Him dearly but I wasn't practicing fully what I should have. I did pray to God on a daily basis but I didn't always follow the path I should have. I only half listened in Church. You live and learn. It wasn't until I went through difficulties in the mid 90's did I really seek Christ with all my heart. I had tried to read the Bible a few times before that but I just couldn't get into it. Then after I went through my difficulties I made a promise to God...that if he helped me through them I would help his people as he had helped me. I kept my promise and God held me to it. I loved going to church but for some reason somewhere along the way during Mass I would just phase out. Sometimes depending on which Priest it was (we were military so we moved alot) it seemed as though they talked above us and I just couldn't keep my attention on what they was saying. Yet I've come across some Priests who were excellent speakers and I got alot from them. Then after I got through my difficulties I began reading the Bible and that was it...I was drawn to it. I found answers to alot of my questions but it wasn't until about 5-6 years later when we switched religions. It was hard at first to leave...I felt so guilty...but the more I read the Bible the better I felt. Now I love going to church and hearing what the Pastor has to say. I love reading the Bible and seeing what God has to say.

What I wrote could happen to anyone in any religion...not just the Catholic religion. When anyone is feeling a calling to move in another direction, pray on it heavily until God gives you an answer. I highly advise you to read the Bible also. There you will find many answers. We have switched religions twice thus far. Not because there was anything wrong with the second one...we loved the church and the people...but God was calling us to another church in another religion where more of His work needed to be done and where we could spiritually grow further. I see our moves as stepping stones. We have so many different religions but sometimes there is something that is offered in another that may help you grow spiritually that the last one might not offer. Some people are meant to stay in one church forever, and some aren't.

Pray on your decision...but if you feel that urge to move, make sure you research where you want to go and most of all ask God where he wants you to go. It just may be time for a move to help you grow spiritually.

brakelite
Mar 18th 2008, 07:40 AM
Absolutely and most assuredly so. Yes.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Mar 18th 2008, 11:40 AM
I myself was a Catholic up until I was 15, and in a bout of deep depression, where I felt God wasn't there, I went into apostasy from the church and was an adamant atheist up until 20, I tried going back to the Catholic church at that time, but just couldn't do it. From then up until November I was an agnostic, but now I'm a born-again bible-believing Christian! :D

weggl
Mar 19th 2008, 06:08 AM
Mike,
I was a catholic; they don’t encourage reading of the Bible, the reason being you may find things they don’t want you to know.
For instance Paul calls the Ten Commandments the ministration of death written and engraved in stones.2COR 3-7
Jesus took the law out of the way nailing it to His cross COL 2-14.
Paul tells us in Romans that we Gentiles never had the Law. The Law was only given to Israel as a schoolmaster for the Jews to lead them to Christ. GAL 2-24TO 25.

No one can be saved by the Law for if one attempts to walk under the Law then they are under the curse of the Law and are therefore outside of grace.
Read Galatians. Read all of Paul’s letters because he is our Apostle the man who gave us Gentiles the good news of salvation by Grace alone.

Warren

isaackie
Mar 19th 2008, 06:45 AM
Hi mike,
I hope by the time you get to read this the Spirit might have moved you already. Be sure the right steps into a new direction will always have the challenges that only spell go back, but you know what, in that direction is a Christ one from God that went through it all and is there ready to see you through
- Welcome to the real Vine!

Jerome1
Mar 19th 2008, 08:52 PM
Absolutely and most assuredly so. Yes.

Could you go into more detail, i prayed the next day such and such happened etc etc.....

I'm curious to know.

Jerome1
Mar 19th 2008, 09:03 PM
Mike,
I was a catholic; they donít encourage reading of the Bible, the reason being you may find things they donít want you to know.
For instance Paul calls the Ten Commandments the ministration of death written and engraved in stones.2COR 3-7
Jesus took the law out of the way nailing it to His cross COL 2-14.
Paul tells us in Romans that we Gentiles never had the Law. The Law was only given to Israel as a schoolmaster for the Jews to lead them to Christ. GAL 2-24TO 25.

No one can be saved by the Law for if one attempts to walk under the Law then they are under the curse of the Law and are therefore outside of grace.
Read Galatians. Read all of Paulís letters because he is our Apostle the man who gave us Gentiles the good news of salvation by Grace alone.

Warren

I could answer this with a long winded answer, but i'll probably create a separate thread, so as not to derail this thread.

Couple of things you said here were a bit ambiguous. Are you basically saying that trying to follow the laws without grace is fruitless?

brakelite
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:09 AM
Could you go into more detail, i prayed the next day such and such happened etc etc.....

I'm curious to know.

Hi Jerome. Okay, a little more detail. As I said, I grew up in the church, was an altar boy etc, did all the right 'catholic things. Was educated by catholic bros. in early years then by priests in HS. Communion every week, confession every month, rosary or parts thereof every day, scapula round neck and prayers to various saints when I felt the need. No meat on Friday (the local fish shop on Friday was like a catholic social club nite lol) and played sport for the school and when I left school for a catholic club (Marist). I was thoroughly catholic, it was the only church I knew and protestantism was like an alien pastime that I wanted nothing to do with.
But in all those years of strict religious upbringing and teaching, not once was I, nor anyone else to my knowledge, taught that one could know Jesus personally. And moreover, I didn't think it even a possibility, let alone a necessity.
Not long after leaving high school my interest in things religious quickly waned. The world beckoned and I took a hold of it for all it was worth.
The one thing that remained with me through the ensuing years was a deep unshakeable conviction of the reality of God. I knew He existed, but gave Him little thought.
When challenged regarding the state of my soul at the age of 24, the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need of a Savior. I recieved Christ into my life for the very first time, and after having done so, naturally returned to the only church I knew, the only church I felt comfortable with, the catholic church. My first visit, I was on a high. Jesus was so real to me in those first few days, and the pure joy of forgiveness and new life in Him propelled me to attend mass where I thought a new level of spiritual awareness and awakening would result. It did. But not in the way I expected. I experienced a coldness and void of spirituality that was actually more pronounced than at any former time of attending church.
I at first put this down to the particular timing of my visit and thought perhaps that I struck the priest and the people on a bad day.
So I went again the next week. In the meantime I had been praying. I had a Bible for the first time and had been reading that nonstop (man did I fall in love with the Bible!) and every day brought a new revelation, a new understanding of truth, a new realization of the presence and power of God. Nothing deeply doctrinal, just wonderful revelation of the love of God, and continuing assurance of His forgiveness.
Mass the second week was worse than the first. It was positively uncomfortable. But I remained till the end, and introduced myself to the officiating priest at the finish of the service. I explained to him briefly of my experience and he had no clue what I was talking about, and looked positively offended.
After praying about this through the following week, I felt no compulsion to return.

It was years later that I began to learn about certain doctrinal positions that differ between the scriptures and the catholic church. And later again that I learnt more of the true history of catholicism and became aware of how she had fallen from the apostolic truth through the mingling of so much pagan belief and practice.

In the meantime God has confirmed in many ways through His providence and protection, and through the fulfilment of many promises and answers to prayer, that He has been leading me throughout my life, and still does to this day.

Regards
Brakelite

servantsheart
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:28 AM
I'm pretty close to leaving the Catholic Church. The older I get, I just cant go along with its teachings....calling our priest "father", the whole Mary thing, the list goes on and on. Any advice would be welcome. Mods, if this is on the wrong board, sorry. Thank you all so much in advance.
Hi Mike33, If you are 'seeing' things within the church that distrub you then the Holy Spirit is trying to open your eyes and show you the truth about the things it does in God's name.
I left and so did my children. We are all born again Christian's ..Thank You Lord.:pp
If you understand that at The Council of Trent it was decided to add to and take away from God's word and that the parts of the Bible the Catholics use to prove it ok are their own historical (not of God) writings.
If you compare the manual for converts using the scripture in it and compare it to King James, you will see the little twist the church puts on things so it fits what they want out of it.
Mary is not an intercessor...only Jesus is. Praying set prayers over and over is something God asks us not to do. Praying the rosary is set prayers over and over. It is calling on Mary to interceed...Christ died for us. NOT MARY!. ..I know she is the mother of Jesus but God never tells us to pray to her...Actually She is Dead and we don't pray to the dead.:eek:
Oh, the church prays to dead saints....God's word tells us that those who are in Him and living, are the saints of the church.
Communion is another step out of God's word. They believe in transubstantion..changing of the bread to the actuall body of Christ and the wine into the blood of Christ. No where in God's word does he tell us to think about communion in this way. We do it in memory only. We use bread and (most Christian church's use grape juice),juice in recalling Christ death on the cross for our sins. Actually doing it the Catholic way is crucifying Christ over and over again.:B
I have been in services where they brought the cross around and you were suppose to kiss the feet of Christ... They kneel and pray before Mary ... and pray to the 'heart of Jesus' ...this is idol worship.
It is wrong to wear a scapular in believing that it and Mary have power to protect you! :rolleyes:
If any of these things have bothered you than please do not feel quilty! The church wants to hold you in it through its means of guilt and fear...does that sound like God? No. No "church" can save you. Only you can save yourself by accepting Jesus into your hear in a whole new way.
You are a very special person to have God trying to open your eyes and show you the truth. God must have some awesome plans for your life.
My children and I thank God everyday for opening our eyes and getting us our of a 'pagan' religion...if you study the symboles used in the church you will see that they go back to the pagan god and goddesses...I won't go into this but look for the number 6 (666) repeated on clothing, etc., it is there.
I pray for satan to be removed from interferring with your seeing what God is trying to show you. I pray that your ears be sanctified to hear only God's voice. I pray for God's wisdom, His strength, stamina, and knowledge to be inside of you. I pray that you will not be swayed by any one trying to convince you that the church is ok. I pray that you understand scripture from God and act on it only. I pray that you take the step to leave and never look back but move forward and upward in Christ Jesus. Thank you Lord for opening the eyes of this new servant you have chosed for your own purposed plan. I pray this in Christ Jesus' name. Amen :pray:

servantsheart
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:31 AM
I myself was a Catholic up until I was 15, and in a bout of deep depression, where I felt God wasn't there, I went into apostasy from the church and was an adamant atheist up until 20, I tried going back to the Catholic church at that time, but just couldn't do it. From then up until November I was an agnostic, but now I'm a born-again bible-believing Christian! :D

Hi! I just wanted to say, PRAISE THE LORD! I am very happy that you were able to find your way out of all of those other ungodly situations.
May God continue to bless you and raise you up in your maturing in Him.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Mar 22nd 2008, 12:21 PM
Hi Mike33, If you are 'seeing' things within the church that distrub you then the Holy Spirit is trying to open your eyes and show you the truth about the things it does in God's name.
I left and so did my children. We are all born again Christian's ..Thank You Lord.:pp
If you understand that at The Council of Trent it was decided to add to and take away from God's word and that the parts of the Bible the Catholics use to prove it ok are their own historical (not of God) writings.
If you compare the manual for converts using the scripture in it and compare it to King James, you will see the little twist the church puts on things so it fits what they want out of it.
Mary is not an intercessor...only Jesus is. Praying set prayers over and over is something God asks us not to do. Praying the rosary is set prayers over and over. It is calling on Mary to interceed...Christ died for us. NOT MARY!. ..I know she is the mother of Jesus but God never tells us to pray to her...Actually She is Dead and we don't pray to the dead.:eek:
Oh, the church prays to dead saints....God's word tells us that those who are in Him and living, are the saints of the church.
Communion is another step out of God's word. They believe in transubstantion..changing of the bread to the actuall body of Christ and the wine into the blood of Christ. No where in God's word does he tell us to think about communion in this way. We do it in memory only. We use bread and (most Christian church's use grape juice),juice in recalling Christ death on the cross for our sins. Actually doing it the Catholic way is crucifying Christ over and over again.:B
I have been in services where they brought the cross around and you were suppose to kiss the feet of Christ... They kneel and pray before Mary ... and pray to the 'heart of Jesus' ...this is idol worship.
It is wrong to wear a scapular in believing that it and Mary have power to protect you! :rolleyes:
If any of these things have bothered you than please do not feel quilty! The church wants to hold you in it through its means of guilt and fear...does that sound like God? No. No "church" can save you. Only you can save yourself by accepting Jesus into your hear in a whole new way.
You are a very special person to have God trying to open your eyes and show you the truth. God must have some awesome plans for your life.
My children and I thank God everyday for opening our eyes and getting us our of a 'pagan' religion...if you study the symboles used in the church you will see that they go back to the pagan god and goddesses...I won't go into this but look for the number 6 (666) repeated on clothing, etc., it is there.
I pray for satan to be removed from interferring with your seeing what God is trying to show you. I pray that your ears be sanctified to hear only God's voice. I pray for God's wisdom, His strength, stamina, and knowledge to be inside of you. I pray that you will not be swayed by any one trying to convince you that the church is ok. I pray that you understand scripture from God and act on it only. I pray that you take the step to leave and never look back but move forward and upward in Christ Jesus. Thank you Lord for opening the eyes of this new servant you have chosed for your own purposed plan. I pray this in Christ Jesus' name. Amen :pray:

You forgot about the wonderfully imaginative doctrine of Purgatory, that doctrine is not only false, but makes Christ's sacrifice inefficient and belittles it, which is blasphemy in my opinion. There is no Purgatory, if someone is on fire, they aren't in Purgatory, but Hell, period. I'm not trying to sound like I'm a fire and brimstone guy, because I'm not, it's just the sad reality.

servantsheart
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:50 PM
Hi Midnightspaleglow, YES I forgot that one!! And probably more. Thank you for listing Purgatory.
1 Changing God's word: add to or take away from
2 Doing pentance for our sins
3 The priest 'forgiving' sins
4 Idol worship
5 Purgatory
6 Literal instead of rememerance: transubstanation(changing wine and bread into blood and body of Christ) for communion
7 Pope is infalable
8 Rosary
9 Scapulars
10 many items from clothing to vessels used, still have designs of the Sun goddess and other forms of gods; AND the number 6...it can up to looking like 666; look on the Pops clothing, etc.
11 praying to Mary to interceed for us
12 praying to the dead saints
13 Baptism of infants
14 Lent: no meat on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday; and all Fridays during Lent
15 Belief that is you miss mass you have sinned and have to go to confession

Mike33 I am still praying for you to be strong in our Lord Jesus and strong in knowing that you know that you know what you are hearing from the Holy Spirit is truth.
Don't let anyone put guilt on you for wanting to leave this 'un-godly' situation they call the church that can save you!
May Father God keep you uder the shadow of his wings.

blueshadow
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:07 PM
Mike33,

I agree with everyone else on this thread -- pray, pray, pray. Last time I checked, prayer never hurt anything and probably helped a lot. Also, start reading the Bible so you'll know what it says.

The other thing I would recommend is making sure you know what the Catholic Church really teaches and believes. There is lots of faulty information about Catholicism out there, just like any other denomination. You don't want to make your decision on anything but the truth.

Above all, just follow the lead of the Holy Spirit! I'm praying for you. :)

Br. Barnabas
Mar 24th 2008, 08:51 PM
I must say that I feel myself being drawn more and more into the higher churches. Not necessarly the Catholic church since I still have a few problems with some of the things that they teach. But I have felt myself being drawn to a more historic church, one that does not discount the early church fathers and their writings. But yeah if you don't want to be part of the RCC anymore, more power to you. Some people are drawn to the that church others are not, were all still Christians.

Confused64
Mar 25th 2008, 02:29 PM
I went to a Catholic mass once (a few years ago with my aunt and uncle). I was very uncomfortable with the proceedings, and was amazed at how different it was from attending my church.

servantsheart
Mar 25th 2008, 10:17 PM
I must say that I feel myself being drawn more and more into the higher churches. Not necessarly the Catholic church since I still have a few problems with some of the things that they teach. But I have felt myself being drawn to a more historic church, one that does not discount the early church fathers and their writings. But yeah if you don't want to be part of the RCC anymore, more power to you. Some people are drawn to the that church others are not, were all still Christians.

Higher churches??? I must ask, What is higher than God's own Word and a Bible lead church that teaches ALL of the Bible? Believe me you don't want to trade God's down to earth, good for today scripture for churches that are lead by men who say it is 'OK' to add to and take away from God's almighty word. Which have rituals, ceremonies, dogmas, & traditions that will lead you down the wrong path.
Why grieve the Holy Spirit by chosing a church like the Roman Catholic which miss guides you in scripture, gives you scapulars to wear about your shoulders for protection, never tells you that your spirit flies immediately back to God the minute you die. Has you praying a rosary and believe and prayin unto Mary for her to interceed with God on your behalf. And so much more.
Please be very careful before making an big moves and put it into God's hands to help lead you to where you should be.

renthead188
Mar 26th 2008, 12:49 PM
Higher churches??? I must ask, What is higher than God's own Word and a Bible lead church that teaches ALL of the Bible? Believe me you don't want to trade God's down to earth, good for today scripture for churches that are lead by men who say it is 'OK' to add to and take away from God's almighty word. Which have rituals, ceremonies, dogmas, & traditions that will lead you down the wrong path.
Why grieve the Holy Spirit by chosing a church like the Roman Catholic which miss guides you in scripture, gives you scapulars to wear about your shoulders for protection, never tells you that your spirit flies immediately back to God the minute you die. Has you praying a rosary and believe and prayin unto Mary for her to interceed with God on your behalf. And so much more.
Please be very careful before making an big moves and put it into God's hands to help lead you to where you should be.


I think that often times, "higher" is used to differentiate between literugical services (priests in white robes, hymnals and the like) and "lower" , nondenominational services consisting of Praise, The Word and Communion.

I think ^

Br. Barnabas
Mar 26th 2008, 05:31 PM
Higher churches??? I must ask, What is higher than God's own Word and a Bible lead church that teaches ALL of the Bible? Believe me you don't want to trade God's down to earth, good for today scripture for churches that are lead by men who say it is 'OK' to add to and take away from God's almighty word. Which have rituals, ceremonies, dogmas, & traditions that will lead you down the wrong path.
Why grieve the Holy Spirit by chosing a church like the Roman Catholic which miss guides you in scripture, gives you scapulars to wear about your shoulders for protection, never tells you that your spirit flies immediately back to God the minute you die. Has you praying a rosary and believe and prayin unto Mary for her to interceed with God on your behalf. And so much more.
Please be very careful before making an big moves and put it into God's hands to help lead you to where you should be.


Renthead hit the nail on the head "high church" referrs to the way that the service is held. Very liturgical and traditional. As compared to the "low churchs" which usually do not have a set pattern to them or are led by the Holy Spirit.

As to your understanding of the Catholic church I think you should look a little more into it. Liturgical churches read through the whole Bible every three years. If you go to church every week for three years you will hear the entire Bible read during that time. So they do talk about and read "ALL the Bible." I can't speak for all the Catholic church since I am not Catholic but I and many others feel that these "ritual, ceremonies, dogmas, and traditions" were set up by the earliest Christians. If crossing myself helps me to remember that Christ died for me and reminds me that I am a Christian what is it to you? How does it affect you or your faith? If someone takes classes to more fully understand the Christian faith (catechism classes) what is wrong with that? I think it helps them a lot since they are willing and wanting to learn more about what they believe. I mean we come on to bibleforums.org to talk about and learn about the Christian faith more, how much better that they do it with other people and have a trained teacher among them? Catechism is not just RCC, Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian, and Lutherian.

As to the idea that your spirit fly to God immedaitly after you die you can check out http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=118857 to see where I and others have talked about going to heaven immediately after death. How do we know what happens after death? I have never died have you? As to your other stuff for fear of breaking the rules of the forum I will not dicuss but I do have thoughts about them.

But I hope and pray everyday that one day there will be "one holy catholic and apostlic Church" (Nicene Creed). In other words that all churches will be in full communion with one another, that the Romans, Protestants and Orthodox could share the Eucharist together. Since, we are all Christians. As I said in my pervious post some are called to the higher churches and others called to the lower churches, it depends on personality and what you want to get out of church. I have found that the higher churches I have been to focus more on the Eucharist and worshiping God through remembering him in this act. Whereas many lower churches focus on the message that the pastor or minister preaches remembering Christ and worshiping him more through the message and the worship music.

Jerome1
Mar 26th 2008, 05:52 PM
Hi Jerome. Okay, a little more detail. As I said, I grew up in the church, was an altar boy etc, did all the right 'catholic things. Was educated by catholic bros. in early years then by priests in HS. Communion every week, confession every month, rosary or parts thereof every day, scapula round neck and prayers to various saints when I felt the need. No meat on Friday (the local fish shop on Friday was like a catholic social club nite lol) and played sport for the school and when I left school for a catholic club (Marist). I was thoroughly catholic, it was the only church I knew and protestantism was like an alien pastime that I wanted nothing to do with.
But in all those years of strict religious upbringing and teaching, not once was I, nor anyone else to my knowledge, taught that one could know Jesus personally. And moreover, I didn't think it even a possibility, let alone a necessity.
Not long after leaving high school my interest in things religious quickly waned. The world beckoned and I took a hold of it for all it was worth.
The one thing that remained with me through the ensuing years was a deep unshakeable conviction of the reality of God. I knew He existed, but gave Him little thought.
When challenged regarding the state of my soul at the age of 24, the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need of a Savior. I recieved Christ into my life for the very first time, and after having done so, naturally returned to the only church I knew, the only church I felt comfortable with, the catholic church. My first visit, I was on a high. Jesus was so real to me in those first few days, and the pure joy of forgiveness and new life in Him propelled me to attend mass where I thought a new level of spiritual awareness and awakening would result. It did. But not in the way I expected. I experienced a coldness and void of spirituality that was actually more pronounced than at any former time of attending church.
I at first put this down to the particular timing of my visit and thought perhaps that I struck the priest and the people on a bad day.
So I went again the next week. In the meantime I had been praying. I had a Bible for the first time and had been reading that nonstop (man did I fall in love with the Bible!) and every day brought a new revelation, a new understanding of truth, a new realization of the presence and power of God. Nothing deeply doctrinal, just wonderful revelation of the love of God, and continuing assurance of His forgiveness.
Mass the second week was worse than the first. It was positively uncomfortable. But I remained till the end, and introduced myself to the officiating priest at the finish of the service. I explained to him briefly of my experience and he had no clue what I was talking about, and looked positively offended.
After praying about this through the following week, I felt no compulsion to return.

It was years later that I began to learn about certain doctrinal positions that differ between the scriptures and the catholic church. And later again that I learnt more of the true history of catholicism and became aware of how she had fallen from the apostolic truth through the mingling of so much pagan belief and practice.

In the meantime God has confirmed in many ways through His providence and protection, and through the fulfilment of many promises and answers to prayer, that He has been leading me throughout my life, and still does to this day.

Regards
Brakelite

Thanks for your answer.

One thing i personally find when looking at the criticisms of the RCC is the misinformation.

Even on this board i have called people out, because i am testing the spirits as John commands in 1John4:1. What i find is that they are very misinformed about what the RCC actually teaches, and are unable to give me an answer to the questions i have posed. Therefore they have not passed the test, i disregard their opinions.

It makes me wonder if people are happy to remain willfully ignorant, in which case it will be up to Christ how they are judged.

grptinHisHand
Mar 26th 2008, 07:13 PM
I have a couple friends who are elderly and both Catholic. A few years ago one of them asked me to remember her in prayer :pray: at my Bible study I was heading out to at that moment. (I am not Catholic.)

I looked at her and said, "I will. But how would you like to come over to my house tomorrow evening for prayer?" It was like it came from out of the air, like God put the words in my mouth almost, as I didn't even think before I said it.

I will try to make a long story short, she came and also brought the other neighbor over with her. We met weekly for a couple years, and they just thrilled at learning Scripture I would print out for us all to read together. They had (and still have) questions. We don't meet as regularly because I moved and it isn't as convenient as when I was just across the street from them.
The thing is they have kept saying I teach them so much more than they ever got out of their church. I certainly do NOT take the credit. I always tell them it is God who is teaching them. And He has also used them to help me grow in Him. As I have prepared lessons, as they have asked tough questions, He has often given me just the right things to say to help them. This has drawn me closer to the Lord.
I don't try to teach them they need to leave their church, to convert them to my way, but I do encourage them to pray straight to God in Jesus Name, rather than through others. (The veil was rent when Jesus died and I understand that to mean that we don't have to have someone else go to God with our prayers, requests.)
I do tell them that I pray 'not to the baby Jesus, not to the Jesus on the cross, but to Jesus who is risen from the dead and is alive in those who have received Him as Lord. I believe they both have done so.

OOPS. ;) I didn't mean to post so much.

If you want to ask questions, I like answering them (when I know or can find out the answers).
g

Athanasius
Mar 26th 2008, 07:26 PM
I enjoy reading messages that speak about bringing the church together that at the same time bring into the discussion new divisions ('higher' vs 'lower' churches for instance).
The 'low church' is led by the Holy Spirit. . . Interesting. . . As opposed to the 'high church' being led by man?

Br. Barnabas
Mar 27th 2008, 01:13 AM
I enjoy reading messages that speak about bringing the church together that at the same time bring into the discussion new divisions ('higher' vs 'lower' churches for instance).
The 'low church' is led by the Holy Spirit. . . Interesting. . . As opposed to the 'high church' being led by man?

The only thing that is the difference between high and low church is that the church service is done in different ways. Some of the high churches hold to more traditional doctrines then that of the low churches but that is a denominational difference rather then service difference.

By being led by the Holy Spirit all I mean is that many Assembly of God, Pentecostal, and charismatic churches describe themselves in this way. Churches with a high service would say that they too are led by the Holy Spirit, in that this is how it has revealed to them that they are to or can do the service. Jesus is present whenever two or more believers are gathered together. Does the Holy Spirit have to revel itself in only one way? If that is the case then there can only be one type of church service and if that is true then I would put forth that it is a high service since that is what we have gotten from the oldest source of church services ie Orthodox and Catholic services. However, the charismatic churches claim that the Holy Spirit is present at there service and has made them have it in that form.

Besides that I know all of the Baptist, Church of Christ, contemporary Methodist, and Christian church services that I have been in follow a type of unspoken liturgy. What I mean by that is that every week the service follows the same basic structure from week to week.

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2008, 06:57 PM
I think it's a terrible naming convention that should have been avoided. It gives the horrible impression that this church is 'better' than that church. . . Which may have been the intention.

With that said I'd have to disagree with you. If the Holy Spirit only revealed HIMSELF only one way, it would not be in the sense of a 'higher liturgy' that you mean, but I'll come back to this in a minute. I think the French philosopher Andre Compte-Sponville said it best when he made the comment that wisdom is often replaced by ritual. . . I'll leave you to derive the implication of that comment. Furthermore, all you've done is appealed to tradition.

I mean, if the aforementioned churches have 'unspoken liturgies' then doesn't that make every church a 'high liturgical' church? Would seem to make the most sense to me. If not, then we can be sure that some churches (high liturgical) are led by the Spirit, all the others are not. . . If the Holy Spirit revealed Himself only one way, that is. . . .

Gentile
Mar 27th 2008, 07:50 PM
Just curious as where the images of 666 are on certain clothing. Pictures would help, i just never heard of this stuff before. Is there a certain brand of clothing that secretly have 666 on them? weird stuff right here.

pnewton
Mar 27th 2008, 08:01 PM
I think that often times, "higher" is used to differentiate between literugical services (priests in white robes, hymnals and the like) and "lower" , nondenominational services consisting of Praise, The Word and Communion.

I think ^
High Churches = hymnals
Low Churches = overhead projectors

High Churchs = pews
Low Churchs = folding chairs

You know, we could right a cool survey on how high church/low church are you.

Some of the things said here should be posted in World Religions so that the rhetoric could be separated from the reality, the truth from the myth.

Br. Barnabas
Mar 27th 2008, 11:43 PM
Well I am sorry that you feel that high and low church titles offends you but they are not my terms, they are not meant to be offensive. Just used to distinguish two types of services. I have been in both and have enjoyed both very much. Each one has great parts in it and they are both really good.

I am saying that the Holy Spirit does not reveal himself in only one way but in many different ways. I am applying to tradition because that is the oldest example of how the church service was held. Thus, how the the Holy Spirit has worked for many centuries. Well you can go and ask those churches if they would consider themselves to be high churches or high liturgical churhes? I know that when I was in them they never considered themselves to be.

As to your statement made by Andre Compte-Sponville, yes this might happen but as he said it is often not always. I believe in this case that it has not. Besides the same thing can be said for non-liturgical churches where they hold to the same actions every week. I know that many of the non-liturgical churches I was in would never think of changing the way that the service was done.

servantsheart
Mar 28th 2008, 12:52 AM
Renthead hit the nail on the head "high church" referrs to the way that the service is held. Very liturgical and traditional. As compared to the "low churchs" which usually do not have a set pattern to them or are led by the Holy Spirit.

As to your understanding of the Catholic church I think you should look a little more into it. Liturgical churches read through the whole Bible every three years. If you go to church every week for three years you will hear the entire Bible read during that time. So they do talk about and read "ALL the Bible." I can't speak for all the Catholic church since I am not Catholic but I and many others feel that these "ritual, ceremonies, dogmas, and traditions" were set up by the earliest Christians. If crossing myself helps me to remember that Christ died for me and reminds me that I am a Christian what is it to you? How does it affect you or your faith? If someone takes classes to more fully understand the Christian faith (catechism classes) what is wrong with that? I think it helps them a lot since they are willing and wanting to learn more about what they believe. I mean we come on to bibleforums.org to talk about and learn about the Christian faith more, how much better that they do it with other people and have a trained teacher among them? Catechism is not just RCC, Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian, and Lutherian.

As to the idea that your spirit fly to God immedaitly after you die you can check out http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=118857 to see where I and others have talked about going to heaven immediately after death. How do we know what happens after death? I have never died have you? As to your other stuff for fear of breaking the rules of the forum I will not dicuss but I do have thoughts about them.

But I hope and pray everyday that one day there will be "one holy catholic and apostlic Church" (Nicene Creed). THIS IS NOT OF GOD. IT IS THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
In other words that all churches will be in full communion with one another, that the Romans, Protestants and Orthodox could share the Eucharist together. Since, we are all Christians. As I said in my pervious post some are called to the higher churches and others called to the lower churches,(this is the way the church brings you to think of yourself and of it...that it is the special church which saves and you can't be saved if you leave it and therefore anyone who does not belong to it will not be saved and is LOWER in class and thinking/AGAIN, I WAS IN IT AND I KNOW HOW IT WORKS! I am embarressed even today to look back and know that I used to think I was better than others because I belonged to the "Catholic Church"...HOW WRONG I WAS, God forgive me) it depends on personality and what you want to get out of church. I have found that the higher churches I have been to focus more on the Eucharist and worshiping God through remembering him in this act. Whereas many lower churches focus on the message that the pastor or minister preaches remembering Christ and worshiping him more through the message and the worship music.
You asked why it is of any difference to me about making the sign of the cross (this was not me pointing this one out but I will accept it) I WAS A CATHOLIC CONVERT FOR OVER 30 YEARS!!! I was never taken to church as a child or had the Bible read to me. When I met my cradle Catholic husband I thought the men leading the church must be smart and I just accepted it. Just as most people brought up in the church do. They never question their faith because that would be a sin to question it and its teachings.
After all they teach that the Pope is infaliabile....that always sounded like he was above or at least on equal ground with God the Father.
I know they read through the Bible every three years. A person can read through their own Bible in ONE year! I NEVER CARREIED BY BIBLE TO A CATHOLIC MASS or even read but a small bit here and there...the church always said the priest need to interprete it...BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO QUESTIONS THEM WHEN YOU BEGIN TO SEE HOW THEY CHANGE SCRIPTURE TO FIT THE CHURCH'S MAN MADE LAWS AND TRADITIONS....DID JESUS NOT DIE ON THE CROSS TO END MAN MADE RULES, LAWS AND TRADITONS??? AND THE COUNCIL OF TRENT SAID THEY DID NOT CARE WHAT GOD'S WORD SAID...THEY WERE GOING TO ADD TO IT AND TAKE FROM IT AS THEY SO DESIRED. They did not care what God said. Now that is Wrong indeed.
I HOPE ONLY ONE DAY TO SEE THE ONE AND ONLY CHURCH CHRIST WILL FORM TO BE HIS BRIDE. YES PEOPLE WILL COME FROM EVERY CHURCH HERE ON EARTH. BUT WE WILL NOT ALL BE COMING TO JOIN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. THAT IS NOT WHAT CHRIST IS TALKING ABOUT OR CALLING HIS BRIDE.
If my church is considered 'lowly' than so be it. We hear the gospel message that Christ died for our sins BUT HE ROSE AND IS LIVING STILL. HE SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD THE FATHER AND INTERCEEDS IN THE PITITIONS SATAN PUTS FORTH TO CONDEM US WHEN WE PRAY. JESUS STEPS IN AND SAYS THAT WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH IS SPILT BLOOD AND GOD HEARS OUR PRAYERS, FORGIVES THEM AND FORGETS THEM...AS FAR AS THE WEST IS FROM THE EAST.
For us, Christ is longer hanging on the cross. We view Him as the risen Christ and Lord. Full of strength, power, wisdom, and knowledge.
He is not still laying across the lap of Mary and Mary is not the one who died for us. Nor is she the one to interceed for us on behalf of our prayers. SHE IS DEAD. We do not pray to dead people... God tells us not to talk to the dead...or you would be talking with an evil spirit friend of satan's.
I am sorry if you were offended by my listing the ways in which the Catholic church teaches 'WRONGLY' but since I personally lived it and now know the difference and the truth through God's holy Word, I was simply stating the facts to a young person who is also being lead by his spirit to see the truth and leave.
If I am removed from this forum for stating my personal connections with a former church for over thirty years and trying to show how it does not compare to God's holy Word then I will accept it. I will not be quiet and let God's truth be hidden.

pnewton
Mar 28th 2008, 01:29 AM
In reference to any search for truth, if one is serious, it is critical to avoid seeking only the answers that make one feel better. I twice went through a serious time of consideration in what is truth, as far as Christianity is concerned. I went back and forth between opposing positions, studying one side, then how the other side responded to the first's postition. Then I would go back to the see the response of the other. So on and so forth. I admire anyone anyone who is willing to enter such a struggle to answer that question first asked 2000 years ago. "What is Truth?"

Br. Barnabas
Mar 28th 2008, 04:08 AM
You asked why it is of any difference to me about making the sign of the cross (this was not me pointing this one out but I will accept it) I WAS A CATHOLIC CONVERT FOR OVER 30 YEARS!!! I was never taken to church as a child or had the Bible read to me. When I met my cradle Catholic husband I thought the men leading the church must be smart and I just accepted it. Just as most people brought up in the church do. They never question their faith because that would be a sin to question it and its teachings.

I was never taken to church as a child either, so I feel you there. I never became Catholic and most likely never will. But I still love the liturgical services and being able to worship in the same form that Christians have for centuries. I question my church and the Catholic church all the time. I have worked out my faith with fear and trembling.


After all they teach that the Pope is infaliabile....that always sounded like he was above or at least on equal ground with God the Father.

They might teach this but I do not accept it.



I know they read through the Bible every three years. A person can read through their own Bible in ONE year! I NEVER CARREIED BY BIBLE TO A CATHOLIC MASS or even read but a small bit here and there...the church always said the priest need to interprete it...BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO QUESTIONS THEM WHEN YOU BEGIN TO SEE HOW THEY CHANGE SCRIPTURE TO FIT THE CHURCH'S MAN MADE LAWS AND TRADITIONS....DID JESUS NOT DIE ON THE CROSS TO END MAN MADE RULES, LAWS AND TRADITONS??? AND THE COUNCIL OF TRENT SAID THEY DID NOT CARE WHAT GOD'S WORD SAID...THEY WERE GOING TO ADD TO IT AND TAKE FROM IT AS THEY SO DESIRED. They did not care what God said. Now that is Wrong indeed.


All I was showing here is that you cannot totally blame the church that people don't know their Bible because it is read in the church. I knew a lot of Baptists when I was a part of that church that did not know their Bibles either. The problem is a universal one. I was a part of a Baptist church that split from another one because the first church changed what the Bible said, again it can be a problem in any tradition. Well I would say that the Council of Trent does not hold any credence over the entire church because it was not ecumenical unlike the Council of Nicea, Jerusalem, Ephesus, and Chaledon; where all Christian bishops were invited and all agreed on the doctrines put forth there.



I HOPE ONLY ONE DAY TO SEE THE ONE AND ONLY CHURCH CHRIST WILL FORM TO BE HIS BRIDE. YES PEOPLE WILL COME FROM EVERY CHURCH HERE ON EARTH. BUT WE WILL NOT ALL BE COMING TO JOIN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. THAT IS NOT WHAT CHRIST IS TALKING ABOUT OR CALLING HIS BRIDE.


I never said that the RCC would be the one church, I just hope that all will be in communion with each other. We can all be in different parts of the church. As I said before some people like the more liturgical churches and some do not. I don't care if one is Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant I just want these three groups to be able to be in communion with each other. I think it would be amazing if we could get all the Protestant denominations to be in communion with each other.



If my church is considered 'lowly' than so be it.


I am sorry if you and others think 'low church' to be an insult but I did not mean for it to be one. It is just the terms that I am most familiar with. I do not use them as an insult to any one. How about if I refer to them instead as non-liturgical churches is that an acceptable title or what would you like them to be called?



We hear the gospel message that Christ died for our sins BUT HE ROSE AND IS LIVING STILL. HE SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD THE FATHER AND INTERCEEDS IN THE PITITIONS SATAN PUTS FORTH TO CONDEM US WHEN WE PRAY. JESUS STEPS IN AND SAYS THAT WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH IS SPILT BLOOD AND GOD HEARS OUR PRAYERS, FORGIVES THEM AND FORGETS THEM...AS FAR AS THE WEST IS FROM THE EAST.
Great I totally and hole heartedly agree that Christ is risen and that he is the only one that can forgive sins.



For us, Christ is longer hanging on the cross. We view Him as the risen Christ and Lord. Full of strength, power, wisdom, and knowledge.
He is not still laying across the lap of Mary and Mary is not the one who died for us. Nor is she the one to interceed for us on behalf of our prayers. SHE IS DEAD. We do not pray to dead people... God tells us not to talk to the dead...or you would be talking with an evil spirit friend of satan's.
I am sorry if you were offended by my listing the ways in which the Catholic church teaches 'WRONGLY' but since I personally lived it and now know the difference and the truth through God's holy Word, I was simply stating the facts to a young person who is also being lead by his spirit to see the truth and leave.


I have no problem with you expressing your views on the Catholic church and their doctrines. But I must say I will, and some others, might disagree with you on that. And I don't really think there is a problem with that. People are going to disagree with each other especially when it comes to matters with which have been debated heavily for about 500 years and debated for 1900 years. If someone wants to leave the Catholic church that is their issue the only thing that I pointed out in my first post is that some people are led to a liturgical church by the Spirit and as some have found themselves led to the Catholic church or to the Orthodox church.


If I am removed from this forum for stating my personal connections with a former church for over thirty years and trying to show how it does not compare to God's holy Word then I will accept it. I will not be quiet and let God's truth be hidden.
I hope that you are not removed I don't think that you have done anything wrong. You have only explained the problems that you see in the Catholic church I don't think that you have promoted Catholic doctrine in any way, shape, or form. (In fact quite the opposite ;)). Again I do not agree with everything that the Catholic church teaches but I do think that people can and do find Christ in it. Also that not all people in the Catholic church are not Christians. Generalizations can be and usually are very wrong and dangerous.

But I welcome these kinds of discussions because it challenges me to even more work out what I believe and what I do not.

Grace and Peace,
Uriel

revrobor
Mar 28th 2008, 05:33 AM
"High Church", "Low Church" it makes no difference and is of no importance when it comes to one's salvation because there is no salvation in ANY church but only in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not establish the religious institution we call "church". He called out followers. The "Christian church" and it's religion was established by man apparently in order to have something more tangible than an invisible God and "Christianity" has gone downhill ever since. IMO the "church" has done more to damage the cause of Christ than Satan could ever have hoped for. Just look at the bickering on this and many other threads. Set your eyes on JESUS not a church.

Jerome1
Mar 28th 2008, 04:06 PM
"High Church", "Low Church" it makes no difference and is of no importance when it comes to one's salvation because there is no salvation in ANY church but only in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not establish the religious institution we call "church". He called out followers. The "Christian church" and it's religion was established by man apparently in order to have something more tangible than an invisible God and "Christianity" has gone downhill ever since. IMO the "church" has done more to damage the cause of Christ than Satan could ever have hoped for. Just look at the bickering on this and many other threads. Set your eyes on JESUS not a church.

Why do you separate Christ and the Church? The Church is the Body of Christ.

There is salvation in the Church, the Body of Christ. What do you mean by there is no salvation in any Church? Isn't that like saying there is no salvation in Christ?

servantsheart
Mar 29th 2008, 01:36 AM
Dear Uriel, Thanks for explaining further your thoughts and feelings. I guess I still get on my soap box about the RC church. I just want people to be aware of it's attachment and beginnings with the occult and how they still use many of the symbols of the pagan religion. You can see and view these on any good web site...they will show the pagan symbol and the present symbol used by the church today.
No church is perfect and there will always be the 'unsaved' involved as if they are saved. But I guess we (I) need to be more tolerant and in hopes that the 'unsaved' will see the actions of the saved and turn their lives around.
I just really don't like what we are seeing in the world today with Christians being pushed to one side and almost threatened if we speak the name of Jesus. And the Darwin crew living it up! Sometimes when I see that fish symbol with Darwin in it on the back of a car I just want to give it a little nudge!! Ha! I know. Not a Christian attitude!
More and more I am looking toward the heavens in hopes of seeing our Lord coming back for us.
Please, just be careful about sitting among a church with such a pagan background and trying to mix it with your belief in a biblical Christian walk. What I am trying to say is if you believe as I do that Jesus is sitting beside us then ...how would he feel about the veneration to the supposedly sacred heart of Mary and of himself...(not biblical), and praying a rosary, and general idol worship, and the infability of the Pope...etc. I deeply believe these are not of God and they break his heart to see those who proclaim to be baptised in Him, participating in such anti-christ rituals.
And anything that is NOT of Christ allows satan to enter into the equation...just like a statue of a Budda if it sat in the home of a professing Christian. Same thing with a picture of Mary showing her hands pierced with nail wounds(Immaculate Heart of Mary, Australia) this is both blasphemous and Antichrist!
...and the sign of the cross is also a pagan satanic sign...just look these up for yourself...I could never make all of these things up. The 666 I came up with on the vestments was through the symbols shown of vestments on a web page I found a long time ago. I had copies and one day I was so disgusted by them that I tore them to shredds ...but I am sure if you look you will find it for yourself.
May God lead you in all things and fill you with His wisdom.

Jerome1
Mar 29th 2008, 02:33 AM
servantsheart have you ever read any of the patristic writings of the early church fathers, on their opinions of Mary, iconography, tradition etc etc...

I don't want to derail the thread, but could you post the sources to support your claims. Debate isn't allowed on this site, but i know a site where it is, and i'd be happy to discuss some of your claims on there.

Bear in mind that people also accused Christ of having Beelzebul.(Luke11:15)

Catholics reject Satan and all his empty promises when they are baptized. Look up the Rite of baptism. A kingdom divided against itself will not stand.(Luke11:18)

servantsheart
Mar 29th 2008, 03:06 AM
servantsheart have you ever read any of the patristic writings of the early church fathers, on their opinions of Mary, iconography, tradition etc etc...

I don't want to derail the thread, but could you post the sources to support your claims. Debate isn't allowed on this site, but i know a site where it is, and i'd be happy to discuss some of your claims on there.

Bear in mind that people also accused Christ of having Beelzebul.(Luke11:15)

Catholics reject Satan and all his empty promises when they are baptized. Look up the Rite of baptism. A kingdom divided against itself will not stand.(Luke11:18)
LEAD THE WAY!!!

Sonshine
Mar 29th 2008, 04:25 AM
Mike,
My husband was raised Catholic and made the same decision you are looking at. After he started really studying the scriptures for himself he found that he didn't agree with a lot of what is taught in the Catholic church.

You need to read the Bible for yourself and pray. Seek God's direction, then act accordingly.

My prayers are with you as you seek God's will.

revrobor
Mar 29th 2008, 04:28 AM
Why do you separate Christ and the Church? The Church is the Body of Christ.

There is salvation in the Church, the Body of Christ. What do you mean by there is no salvation in any Church? Isn't that like saying there is no salvation in Christ?

I made it quite clear that I was talking about the religious institution we call "church" NOT the Church the Bible refers to which is the body of Believers. The religious institution is not the body of Believers. It is a man-made religious organization. The body of Believers are those Jesus has called to follow Him. Some may be members of a religious institution but that does not make the religious institution the Church the Bible refers to. You need to understand the difference between who the Bible calls the Church and what man calls the church.

Jerome1
Mar 29th 2008, 05:26 AM
I made it quite clear that I was talking about the religious institution we call "church" NOT the Church the Bible refers to which is the body of Believers. The religious institution is not the body of Believers. It is a man-made religious organization. The body of Believers are those Jesus has called to follow Him. Some may be members of a religious institution but that does not make the religious institution the Church the Bible refers to. You need to understand the difference between who the Bible calls the Church and what man calls the church.

I agree with you, that just because you belong to a religious institution does not necesarily mean only those in that institution belong to the Body of Christ. Obviously were protestants and RC's differ is on the man made part of the RCC.

For instance iv'e heard good messages from both protestant and Orthodox teachers which were perfectly compatible with what the RCC teaches.

brakelite
Apr 1st 2008, 10:10 PM
Thanks for your answer.

One thing i personally find when looking at the criticisms of the RCC is the misinformation.

:D I just got to smile at that one. Should you really be surprised that no-one fully understands Catholic doctrine? The RCC has themselves vast bureaucratic organisations to formulate and organise doctrine. The current pope was the former head of one of the biggest. When you mix pagan beliefs with tradition and then add Scripture to the mix and attempt to pass that off as God's true established faith and to convince others of that can be no easy feat. Those who have spent years in seminary don't understand it all. Do you?
My denomination only has the scripture as the basis for belief. And very few in these forums have a true picture of what and why we believe and practice what we do either.


Even on this board i have called people out, because i am testing the spirits as John commands in 1John4:1. What i find is that they are very misinformed about what the RCC actually teaches, and are unable to give me an answer to the questions i have posed. Therefore they have not passed the test, i disregard their opinions.

Can I ask you some questions? How sincere are you in your desire to know the truth? How much are you willing to sacrifice to follow it? If someone on these forums can answer all your questions and challenges and show you how your faith and practice differs from scripture on salvational issues, are you willing to accept that? The problem you have my friend is your own churches acceptance of tradition as being equal to the Bible. If your faith and practice differs from the scriptures, you have the excuse that you are holding to tradition and are therefore safe. That is possibly the most dangerous and devilish error in all of Christendom, protestant and Catholic alike.

It makes me wonder if people are happy to remain willfully ignorant, in which case it will be up to Christ how they are judged.

Yes, it is our solemn duty to investigate and seek out truth. In former years those following incorrect teachings were excused because scripture was kept from them, and they were taught without them having the opportunity to prove for themselves whether those things were so. Today, with the vast ammount of information out there and the availability of the word of God to almost every corner of the globe, there is no excuse.
British philosopher W.K.Clifford once said,Ē It is always wrong, everywhere and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.Ē

Brakelite

Jerome1
Apr 2nd 2008, 11:54 AM
Those who have spent years in seminary don't understand it all. Do you?

I don't think they would be priests if they didn't grasp the doctrines they are meant to adhere to. That is not to say they all practice what they preach, a lot don't.




Can I ask you some questions? How sincere are you in your desire to know the truth? How much are you willing to sacrifice to follow it? If someone on these forums can answer all your questions and challenges and show you how your faith and practice differs from scripture on salvational issues, are you willing to accept that? The problem you have my friend is your own churches acceptance of tradition as being equal to the Bible. If your faith and practice differs from the scriptures, you have the excuse that you are holding to tradition and are therefore safe. That is possibly the most dangerous and devilish error in all of Christendom, protestant and Catholic alike.


If i didn't think the RCC was what it claimed to be i wouldn't be a RC quite frankly.

servantsheart
Apr 3rd 2008, 03:17 AM
Hi Jerome, after my 30 yrs. in the RCC lets try some roll playing. Let's say I come to you and tell you that my church, Southern Baptist (for example..I am one so don't get up set with me), states in its core beliefs that the 'church' is the only one that can save me. That my pastor is infallible {by saying this we state that God must have wrong thinking}. That the church heads have decided to change God's word because we don't believe it meets our needs. So we are adding our own traditions and dogmas {because we don't think that Christ's death and resurrection was enough to cover our sins}and 'twiking' God's word so that it up holds our traditions...man made ones of course{God's word could never cover ALL of our needs}. We take control over your reading your Bible scripture for yourself, you must tell a pastor your sins instead of going straight to Father God....we want you to pray to the dead saints to have your prayers answered, you must wear a scapular and believe that upon your death Mary (Mary of the church and not the Bible--my Christian friends here) will meet you...and guarantees you will see heaven....that you will now pray to this same Mary for her to interceed for you to God....because we elevate Mary above Jesus...we can prove it...we have pictures of her with nail holes in the palm of her hands and this makes her co-redeemer with Jesus....not a singe Bible character received last rites.And don't worry about the pagan symbols we use at our altar or on our clothing...or even the pentigram you see in front of our church....
Again honor is stolen from Christ because the church demotes the Lord and robs Him of His honor and glory by declaring that lowly sinners can help pay for varying dgrees of sin through their good works. Oh, yes we can buy indulgences to pay for our sins which = good works.
These are but a few of the changes the 'church' chooses to make. There will be more to follow as the need arises from God not being enough to provide everything His word says it does.
? what will it be like to stand before God and tell him face to face that he and is Son and his word were not enough?

Jerome1
Apr 3rd 2008, 01:56 PM
Hi servantsheart, this board doesn't allow debate regarding the RCC so i can't answer all your questions.

One thing i will pick up on with what you said is the no salvation outside the church. As i'm sure you believe that the church is the Body of Christ, this is just like protestants claiming no salvation except through Christ(which Catholics also believe).

Roman Catholics believe the RCC is the visible church that Christ established, but there is also a spiritual dimension of the Church. The second vatican council compares this mystery to that of the Holy Trinity.

melbel816
Apr 5th 2008, 02:01 AM
To the OP:

I was raised Catholic, and stopped attending Catholic masses about 2 years ago. Even after I was saved, I continued to defend the Catholic Church and still attend mass for quite some time.

As I began to have specifics pointed out, I was moved to stop attending mass, and am no longer defensive when people criticize the church. I have many Catholic friends (and family!) who I am praying for, and feel I have not yet learned enough to witness to them. I attended my grandmother's funeral in a Catholic church back in November...the first time in a year I'd been to mass. I didn't feel right sitting their, and having the knowledge that I now have, it was strange to me that I'd actually followed the Catholic church for so long.

I am still searching for a new place to worship, but have explored many options, and have focused on reading the Bible and spending time with other Christians. I have learned more NOT attending services of any kind, but just reading and studying than I learned in the entire time I went to mass every Sunday.

I pray that you continue to learn and pass the knowledge on to your family members. It is an amazing awakening.

servantsheart
Apr 5th 2008, 03:08 AM
To the OP:

I was raised Catholic, and stopped attending Catholic masses about 2 years ago. Even after I was saved, I continued to defend the Catholic Church and still attend mass for quite some time.

As I began to have specifics pointed out, I was moved to stop attending mass, and am no longer defensive when people criticize the church. I have many Catholic friends (and family!) who I am praying for, and feel I have not yet learned enough to witness to them. I attended my grandmother's funeral in a Catholic church back in November...the first time in a year I'd been to mass. I didn't feel right sitting their, and having the knowledge that I now have, it was strange to me that I'd actually followed the Catholic church for so long.

I am still searching for a new place to worship, but have explored many options, and have focused on reading the Bible and spending time with other Christians. I have learned more NOT attending services of any kind, but just reading and studying than I learned in the entire time I went to mass every Sunday.

I pray that you continue to learn and pass the knowledge on to your family members. It is an amazing awakening.

I am so thankful Father God has chosen to open your eyes and led you out of the RCC. I could hardly sit still during a mass after I had been brought out. I had gone to Easter Service with my husband and the Holy Spirit just kept pointing out everthing that was not of God and I wiggled and squirmed through the whole thing. Needless to say it was the last time I went back. It is like God leading you out of Egypt and you return and He has to point out everything that He has already awkened you to see and get away from.
If it is not totally of God (nothing man made attached to it) then it is not worth being involved in it.

servantsheart
Apr 5th 2008, 03:18 AM
Hi Jerome1

{Roman Catholics believe the RCC is the visible church that Christ established, but there is also a spiritual dimension of the Church. The second vatican council compares this mystery to that of the Holy Trinity.}
I really have no idea what this is suppose to mean...
None of us need a 'church' to tell us what to believe or to compare anything of this earth to the Holy Trinity. There is no mystery comparable between earthly things and the Holy Trinity.

Jerome1
Apr 5th 2008, 04:44 AM
Hi Jerome1

{Roman Catholics believe the RCC is the visible church that Christ established, but there is also a spiritual dimension of the Church. The second vatican council compares this mystery to that of the Holy Trinity.}
I really have no idea what this is suppose to mean...
None of us need a 'church' to tell us what to believe or to compare anything of this earth to the Holy Trinity. There is no mystery comparable between earthly things and the Holy Trinity.

I would disagree, and say that the mystery of the nature of the Church is comparable.

I could go into great detail about it, but it wouldn't be allowed on this board.

I could show you from scripture were it corresponds to the teaching of the RCC.

When you say the Holy Spirit pointed out everything that was not from God, could you give specifics?

I have found the exact opposite.

servantsheart
Apr 6th 2008, 05:27 AM
Hello Jerome1 [I would disagree, and say that the mystery of the nature of the Church is comparable.

I could go into great detail about it, but it wouldn't be allowed on this board.

I could show you from scripture were it corresponds to the teaching of the RCC.

When you say the Holy Spirit pointed out everything that was not from God, could you give specifics?

I have found the exact opposite.[/quote]
My whole arguement is in the fact that I do not believe in the RCC as my guide in this life or for after death. Christ would never build His church on a moratal man who is not sinless and did not do what he did by going to the cross and shedding His precious blood for our sins.
So I can not look to RCC teachings in the historical church writings....I can only believe in and accept God's heavenly Word above anything and everything else.
God knew me and you before we were born and he knows the plans he has for us....no group of mortal men calling themselves the RCC new us before we were born, planted us in our mother's womb and have plan so exceedeling good, beyond anything we could imagine, for our lives. Earthly man can not answer my prayers, cure by illnessnes, or offer me salvation without the one and only Lamb, Jesus Christ.
If only you might be able to separate the historical writings of the RCC from what God tells us in Scripture....take your eyes off of what man tells you to do in church traditions and dogmas, etc., and see how different it is to follow God... Bible ...and ...His Word is all you need.
You asked what "not of God' did the Holy Spirit point out...the Holy Spirit confirmed many things ...all of which were shown to me when I came out of the RCC. God walked me through His word and helped me see by comparison (so to speak) Bible scripture and then taking the same scripture (on a particular point) and comparing it to how the RCC church writes in their historical books....you see the little ways in which scripture is changed ...even by one word...it changes the whole context of God's message and it allows the RCC to bring into play its traditions and dogmas, etc. It is so wrong for man to change what God has so dearly given to us ...why would anyone want to openly disobey God and put a church building and mortal men leading it before what God our Father tells us to do and not do.
One example is the RCC church tradition of spinkling for baptism...Christ was not sprinkled...he was fulling immersed in baptism...the church changed this and decided to do it their way and not the way God so plainly showed us by His example.
The praying of the rosay...it was a priest who said it was given to him in a vision...so the church makes this a practice...God did not give us the rosary...anything that has come about since the days of the true Bible prophets at the end of the NT is not God given...it is man made...inspired by man and should not be held in the same view and acceptance that we do God's Scripture alone.
God did not give us scapulars to wear and put our belief and faith into them and through Mary (of the Church), to provide above and beyond what God and His Son have already given us. The church elevates Mary to a level equal to or above that of Jesus (they show her as the young and healthy one of the two...always showing Jesus as still dead and drapped across her lap). And especially when they depict her with hands held up showing nail holes through them...she is NOT co-redeemer with Jesus...she did not hang on the cross, it was not her blood that saves us from sin...This is just plain evil. It demeans everything Christ went to the cross for and died for.
God Word alone and NOT what man changes it into.

Jerome1
Apr 6th 2008, 07:32 PM
servantsheart have you ever read a Catholic explanation of those things you mentioned?

Everybody is responsible for their own salvation, if you dismiss or misjudge something without investigating it for yourself then it is your own fault.

One thing that stricks me about this board are the amount of people who cannot substantiate any of their claims.

The whole bible is read in the RCC in a three year cycle.

Br. Barnabas
Apr 7th 2008, 01:12 AM
Jerome1

I totally agree. And it is the same in any/every church a person has to explore things for themselves. No church is going to explain all their theology in the preaching or sunday school. And from my experience churches that do not have the lectionary are less likely to get through all the Bible in one pastor's/preacher's career because they take a verse or set of verses at a time. I was in a church were it took us about 2 and a half years to get through Romans without going very indepth. At least with the lectionary the Bible is read all the way through and people have a change to have all of the Bible read to them.

CoffeeBeaned
Apr 7th 2008, 02:46 PM
I totally agree. And it is the same in any/every church a person has to explore things for themselves. No church is going to explain all their theology in the preaching or sunday school. And from my experience churches that do not have the lectionary are less likely to get through all the Bible in one pastor's/preacher's career because they take a verse or set of verses at a time. I was in a church were it took us about 2 and a half years to get through Romans without going very indepth. At least with the lectionary the Bible is read all the way through and people have a change to read all of the Bible read to them.

People have this chance themselves. They only need open their Bibles and read it themselves. My relationship with God does not revolve around a church. It is a personal relationship between me and my savior. I can't agree with churches who put a "middleman" between me and my savior.

Br. Barnabas
Apr 7th 2008, 03:45 PM
People have this chance themselves. They only need open their Bibles and read it themselves. My relationship with God does not revolve around a church. It is a personal relationship between me and my savior. I can't agree with churches who put a "middleman" between me and my savior.

That is what I was saying that people needed to read things for themselves. However, you and I, both know that people do not always do that. Most people, no matter what sect of Christianity they are in, are lazy and a lot of them do not read things for themselves. I know many catholics who do read the Bible for themselves and I know a few who do not. But at least if those catholics who do not read their Bibles if they go to church they will get to read a lot of the Bible read. I also know a lot of Protestants who read their Bible for themselves, and I know a lot who do not. If they go to church they will get some of the Bible read but not as much, at least not in my experience as if a person goes to a church were there is a lectionary and they have an OT, Psalm, NT, and Gospel reading.

servantsheart
Apr 7th 2008, 10:56 PM
servantsheart have you ever read a Catholic explanation of those things you mentioned?

Everybody is responsible for their own salvation, if you dismiss or misjudge something without investigating it for yourself then it is your own fault.

One thing that stricks me about this board are the amount of people who cannot substantiate any of their claims.

The whole bible is read in the RCC in a three year cycle.
YES. I went through the RCC training to become a convert and went into the church and stayed for 30 years! But everything the church does is brought back through the church...salvation is NOT connected to the church. You can only be saved by asking Jesus into your life and believing in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
By accepting that the death of Jesus on the cross of Calvary was complete. NOTHING can be added to it (RCC insist on adding that is comes through the church, & that you have to earn it, etc.). If this were true the you defeat everything Jesus did for us by giving HIS life up to death on the cross and spilling HIS blood to cover our sins...God and God alone accepted this attonement for our sins by His Son and gave the grace possbile for us to be saved for eternity . "SIMPLY" by believing and accepting the work of JESUS on the cross. Noting added to it and nothing taken from it just as Deut. 4:2 tells us: "Do not add to what I commandyou and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you." So if man tells you that you have to go through a 'church' or do this or do that to earn salvation, etc., they are adding to or taking away from what God has told us. We only need do what GOD HIMSELF tells us.

IF you accept Jesus into your life and give your life over to HIM, confess with your mouth that you are a sinner, confess those sins to God and ask (with humility and sincerity) for God's forgiveness, confess that Jesus is Lord and that He was raised from the dead, believing that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell in your heart, thus making Jesus the Lord of your life...then all you need do is find a good bible lead church, ask for baptism (full immersion--just as Christ did for this is your first step in obediance to God ) and you have been saved for eternity.
Now there is nothing that I stated that insisted that a particular church had to be connected with your salvation. It is between you and the Lord and No other human person or church. You do not have to do good works to earn your salvation (doing good works is fine) but they are NOT apart of a need to earn your salvation.
This is how the RCC ties you to it...by making you believe that you can do nothing without the 'church'.
If you will only read the Bible (King James, NIV, etc.) for yourself you will see what the truth is just as those of us who have left the church did after realizing how it conflicts with God's true word.

Jerome1
Apr 8th 2008, 04:38 PM
It is between you and the Lord and No other human person or church. You do not have to do good works to earn your salvation (doing good works is fine) but they are NOT apart of a need to earn your salvation.
This is how the RCC ties you to it...by making you believe that you can do nothing without the 'church'.
If you will only read the Bible (King James, NIV, etc.) for yourself you will see what the truth is just as those of us who have left the church did after realizing how it conflicts with God's true word.

Christ is the Church it states it right in your bible.

Ephesians1:22 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Faith without works is dead, how do you explain James2:14-26?



This is how the RCC ties you to it...by making you believe that you can do nothing without the 'church'.


If the church is the Body of Christ, why is this any different from saying we can do nothing without the grace of God?

brakelite
Apr 9th 2008, 01:23 AM
Christ is the Church it states it right in your bible.



Hi Jerome. The 'church' that the bible speaks of as referring to Christ's body is the body of true believers worldwide. These may be catholic, presbyterian,
Lutheran, orthodox, Anglican, baptist , SDA, or independent of any denomination.
Also within those denominations and non-denominational groups are many who are not true to the faith once preached to the apostles, and are therefore not a part of the body of Christ regardless of their affiliation. It is of these that Jesus will say to, "depart from Me I never knew you".
It is not an ecclesiastical body that will save us. Nor is it the dogmas and teachings or traditions of any ecclesiastical or corporate body that will lead us to eternity life.
Jesus said to His disciples to go and preach to all nations, teaching them whatsoever I have commanded you. This includes "all the law and the prophets". When we start teaching as doctrine the commandments of men we are being unfaithful to our commission, disobedient to Christ, and offering nothing by way of hope to those in need of salvation.
And rather than honoring Christ, we are dishonoring Him by placing a man-made corporate body ahead of Him.
"In vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men"

Brakelite

servantsheart
Apr 9th 2008, 01:33 AM
Hello Jerome 1,

Christ is the Church it states it right in your bible. {Yes, we are the church/the living saints}

Ephesians1:22 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. {KJV ...And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everythings in every way.}

Faith without works is dead, how do you explain James2:14-26?
{KJV...What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well:keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? }
This speaks plainly in saying faith without love to cause you to help others and do good deeds/works is dead (you must have love to show love)...your faith is not growing and not serving the body of Chirst or doing the will of Chirst in your life, if you are not living the faith you have with a heart filled with love and pouring out to your neighbors (your enemy).
What it is not saying: It is not saying that you are saved through good works. You can not earn your salvation. Our salvation was freeling given by Christ when we accepted Him as our Lord and Savior. God gave His grace to the work Christ's death on the cross provided by the shedding of His blood to cover all illness and diseases that could ever be imagined.
Some (like myself) believe in the saying: GRACE PLUS+NOTHING. God gives us His saving grace when we accept Christ and give up our old life of sin to become born again in Christ Jesus.


If the church is the Body of Christ, why is this any different from saying we can do nothing without the grace of God?[/quote]
Again, we become the church of the living body of Christ when we are born again. And this only comes by the way of the grace God provides for this to happen through the death of Christ on the Cross of Calvary..his life, death and resurrection. So without God's saving grace we would be nothing.

revrobor
Apr 9th 2008, 05:24 AM
Hi Jerome. The 'church' that the bible speaks of as referring to Christ's body is the body of true believers worldwide. These may be catholic, presbyterian,
Lutheran, orthodox, Anglican, baptist , SDA, or independent of any denomination.
Also within those denominations and non-denominational groups are many who are not true to the faith once preached to the apostles, and are therefore not a part of the body of Christ regardless of their affiliation. It is of these that Jesus will say to, "depart from Me I never knew you".
It is not an ecclesiastical body that will save us. Nor is it the dogmas and teachings or traditions of any ecclesiastical or corporate body that will lead us to eternity life.
Jesus said to His disciples to go and preach to all nations, teaching them whatsoever I have commanded you. This includes "all the law and the prophets". When we start teaching as doctrine the commandments of men we are being unfaithful to our commission, disobedient to Christ, and offering nothing by way of hope to those in need of salvation.
And rather than honoring Christ, we are dishonoring Him by placing a man-made corporate body ahead of Him.
"In vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men"

Brakelite


AMEN brakelite! Praise God that He has opened your eyes. So many have fallen victim to the teachings of their religious institutions and fail to see the difference as they attempt to use Scriptures referring to the Body to defend their religious institution. Stand fast in the truth.

Jerome1
Apr 9th 2008, 05:53 PM
Hi Jerome. The 'church' that the bible speaks of as referring to Christ's body is the body of true believers worldwide. These may be catholic, presbyterian,
Lutheran, orthodox, Anglican, baptist , SDA, or independent of any denomination.



As a RC i believe that Christ established a visible Church. Do i believe people can belong to the church who do not consider themselves a member of that visible church? Yes i do.

It is a very complicated issue, i would need to start a new thread in order to cover most of the issues. I don't think this board allows for discussion regarding these issues though.

The RCC teaches that Christ instituted a visible Church, this Church is both visible and spiritual. If it is allowed to discuss this issue further in depth then i can make a new thread and support it with scripture.

LivingSacrafice
Apr 30th 2008, 08:34 AM
AMEN brakelite! Praise God that He has opened your eyes. So many have fallen victim to the teachings of their religious institutions and fail to see the difference as they attempt to use Scriptures referring to the Body to defend their religious institution. Stand fast in the truth.

But you do realize that Jesus built ONE CHURCH not two or three,so if Im not mistaken you said in the beggining that these could be a denomination,let me say that could be true in some cases if one of the denomination churches have saved people in them,but then again God doesnt like denomination,he built one church not two or three like I said earlier.Denomination does not display unity at all,it displays seperation,so in that case wouldnt that mean seperation from the body in most cases.Jesus built one church [that doesnt mean an actualy building but his body made up those that are saved,but they did have local churches].If Jesus is against denomination[seperation] then those that are doing it wouldnt that mean they are not doing Gods will or does that mean that its fine and its ok
to not follow Gods will and not want to change that,its not hard to stray away from denomination if you truly want to obey God.Trust me I've been in and out of church,I have been to a denomination church before,and it all seems well and good,good message,talking about God and everything,but the problem is its denomination,its seperation and thats not Gods will,I think peter or one of the apostles speaks about this somewhere in the new testement.

But dont get me wrong like I said Jesus knows his bride,he knows whos gonna make it to heaven,and we cant take for granted that God could take this world any min.We have to obey God and live in his will.And dont get me wrong sometimes thats hard when your use to something,for instance I use to play big games like World of warcraft,and all of a sudden I wanted to get on games like that again,but the thing is thats not Gods will for me to play a game with magic in it or even embrace it by being in the game,and God doesnt want me to go on these free movie sites and watch movies that people have recorded out of the movie theatres,these are decisions that may seem very small and they actually are,but sometimes they have such a hold on you that you end up choosing these things over God.And these are decisions that I had to make.

And thats why I say to you all,we have to get right with God,theres no time to play around,and even if lets just say we had 100 more years to be in this world,what good would it be to go out there and lose everything that God has given you,trust me I have lost alot because I wanted to go sin and act up,but oh how good God is to pull me back in:cry:,Im so extremely fortunate to have been saved by God.Dont lose out on God,please dont lose out.

brakelite
Apr 30th 2008, 11:34 AM
Hi guys, just a note to make sure I am not misunderstood. I belong to a denomination. I've been a Christian for over 30 years, but was not always a member of a dnmtl church. I was in the beginning, but became somewhat disillusioned by the paucity of Scriptural truth and could not in good conscience continue there. The denomination I now belong to is the closest I have found to what I believe is the truth. This does not necessarily mean that there is not more truth to be revealed, nor does it mean that they have a monopoly on it.
And if the time comes that I find that they are straying from the foundations upon which they were established and veer away from what the scriptures teach, I will be the first to stand up and protest. And if I am disfellowshipped for doing so, so be it.
Because I belong to a particular denomination and for the time present will remain faithful to it, that does not mean that there are not Christians in other denominations. As there are also Christians in non-denominational churches.
Nor would I dare to suggest that everyone in my denomination are necessarily all truly born again Christians.
As our Savior said, "eternal life is that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Yashua Messiah, Whom thou didst send."
Knowing Him is available to all, everywhere, in any denomination, any culture, and to all the offer of the Father's atonement is made:
6 ∂ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Gentile
Apr 30th 2008, 01:58 PM
I think people are going a little overboard bashing the RCC. Its not the RCC its the priests who are giving mass and the people running the church. I understand the frustration people have with the RCC, I am one who is frustrated as well. Nothing worse sitting through a mass with an un-inspiring priest who just seems like he is going through the motions, or is not bias in his teachings. Or is just completely off topic of why people are there.

This past sunday I went to church and experienced one of the most spiritual masses in so long. I am kind of new to this church because I can walk there. Anyways the sermon was amazing and I even told the priest after how amazing it was. I walked out of mass feeling some empowered by the Holy Spirit, it was amazing. It all had to do with this certain priest, you can tell he was extremelly passionate about his job. So personally I think its a hit and miss when it comes to the RCC.

Mike33
May 9th 2008, 12:33 PM
I think people are going a little overboard bashing the RCC. Its not the RCC its the priests who are giving mass and the people running the church. I understand the frustration people have with the RCC, I am one who is frustrated as well. Nothing worse sitting through a mass with an un-inspiring priest who just seems like he is going through the motions, or is not bias in his teachings. Or is just completely off topic of why people are there.

This past sunday I went to church and experienced one of the most spiritual masses in so long. I am kind of new to this church because I can walk there. Anyways the sermon was amazing and I even told the priest after how amazing it was. I walked out of mass feeling some empowered by the Holy Spirit, it was amazing. It all had to do with this certain priest, you can tell he was extremelly passionate about his job. So personally I think its a hit and miss when it comes to the RCC.

Actually, my priest is not inspiring at all, but my fellow members of the church are some wonderful people. Really, my issue isn't at all with my local church, it is indeed with the RCC. Its getting harder for me to keep my opinions to myself during casual conversations at church functions, as we recently had the "Crowning of Mary" (are you kidding me?)

My fellow Catholics say "we dont worship Mary"... Really? There she is, at the center of the altar, with a crown and several bouquets of flowers, and an entire ceremony dedicated to her. Call it whatever you want, looks like worship to me.

I can barely speak to our priest, because I don't want to address him as "father"

talmidim
May 9th 2008, 01:09 PM
Blessings Mike,

You have received some wonderful advice at the beginning of this thread. I would like to reinforce it. Start reading scripture. Get away from everyone for a time and invite Him to show you what He will. Don't try to understand everything all at once. Just read and reread scripture. After a while, certain things will start to become clear.

Our Messiah said that the most important commandments were to love the Father and love each other. If you will use that as your foundation, and read everything in scripture with that axiom in the forefront of your mind, I think you will do fine. Just keep reading - and reading.

Stay away from the forums for a while. Don't talk to us. Talk to Him. Seek the company of those that encourage you to stay in His Word. Then you will become prepared for all those that would pull you toward their traditions.

The simple fact is this. A lot of people come out of the RCC and other so called 'orthodox' organizations. The vast majority do not come out far enough. I will say a prayer for you. I invite everyone else here to do the same.

In His Love,
Phillip

servantsheart
May 10th 2008, 12:18 PM
Actually, my priest is not inspiring at all, but my fellow members of the church are some wonderful people. Really, my issue isn't at all with my local church, it is indeed with the RCC. Its getting harder for me to keep my opinions to myself during casual conversations at church functions, as we recently had the "Crowning of Mary" (are you kidding me?)

My fellow Catholics say "we dont worship Mary"... Really? There she is, at the center of the altar, with a crown and several bouquets of flowers, and an entire ceremony dedicated to her. Call it whatever you want, looks like worship to me.

I can barely speak to our priest, because I don't want to address him as "father"
Hi Mike33, just reading what you wrote above shows how very much God has opened your eyes, your heart and your mind to the RRC. And I fully agree with you on all of it...it brought to mind my having sat through an experience where the statue of Mary was moved to stand by the altar and she had fresh flowers placed in her arm and the whole celebration was towards Mary...IT IS IDOL WORSHIP!
When the Spirit tells you it is time to leave this faith then walk quickly away and don't feel bad about doing it. God is calling you to something more, much more. Put it all into his hands to be lead to the church or demonination God wants you in. Be sure that the demonination or faith you choose is true and does not have false doctrines... read God's word.
You are very blessed to really know the God we love and serve. Not a doctrine of a faith or a pope or Mary, etc. But God our Father, our creator, our salvation...

Teacup
May 10th 2008, 01:59 PM
I have attended the Catholic church (Byzantine) for my entire 40 years. I, too, have become uncomfortable. I refuse to say certain words during parts of the mass that lead to verbal worshipping of Mary. But, as for the May crowning, I don't think that it is idol worship. It is a statue, nothing more and nothing less. It stands for the lady who gave birth to Jesus. It is a beautiful celebration of a very lucky lady. That is all. However, some of the parishiners do worship her. I think that they forget it is all about Christ. But, that is what they have been taught for years.

ServantofTruth
May 10th 2008, 02:33 PM
I certainly can't catch up with this whole topic - but most of my experience with church is through the Church of England/ Anglican church. This has over the last few years become more and more Roman Catholic.
During Easter Week we were told on numerous occassions that the Wafer/ bread was actually Jesus and it was carried in a gold holder and bowed to, blessed the congregation and worshipped.
Then there was a service where we were clearly told a large candle was actually Jesus - underline not representing, but actually Jesus with us there - which was lowered into the font so Jesus/ the candle could make the water Holy by touching it.
By the end of the week i was joking with my mother a life long Anglican what object was going to be called Jesus next! Add to that the unbiblical stations of the cross, the worship of Mary, yes it is nothing less, oh yes and the kissing of the crucifix also actually Jesus apparently, he got around that week! and it was serious nonsense.
I have met so many Anglicans who don't want to be associated with their own denomination. Yes i go to a Church of England church, but please don't call me Anglican. This is wrong, and that and the other.
Unfortunately if you want to be part of a church in the UK that isn't unbiblical, it will take you years to find one. We seriously need missionaries in the UK from any organisation that is biblical!
Which is why after trying to attend for a few weeks, again for the sake of my biblical faith i've had to leave. Servant of Truth.

servantsheart
May 11th 2008, 12:59 PM
Dear Servant of Truth, God has blessed you to see the truth of the RRC and the idol worship that going on that they claim is not happening. Thank you for sharing what I for one have been trying to explain here on the forums for a long time. I was RRC for 30 years and bought into it but knew something was wrong, something was missing. I praise the Lord our God from brining me out and I know he wants me to share the truth of what is happening to the people who are being lead by un-goldly men down a path of destruction...the evil one is all over these kinds of false teachings. I am so sorry you are having to witness this and have so few choices about your form of worship.
Just know how bless you and your mother are to have eyes opened by God to see and know the truth.
We all should pray for false teachers and churches to be closed by Father God. He knows which ones are teaching his word the way he gave it to us and not changing it to conform to unbiblical needs, traditions, dogmas, etc.
May God continue to use you to witness to the world (as you just did) and bring truth and light to his word. Pat

turtledove
May 11th 2008, 01:27 PM
If the Spirit is moving you to move, then you need to heed it.

This is so true! I left the RCC over 30 years ago and attended a non-Catholic bible believing church; although my husband attended the services and got involved he refused to stay beyond a year. At that time I was involved teaching Sunday school in our new congregation and had my children in the Christian school. I went back to the RCC with him and did the best I could even ending up training teachers and taught women's bible studies always using the bible rather than specific Catholic doctrines. This lasted for several years. I always wanted to leave but nothing seemed to convince him until two things happened. First a youth group of another church was invited to attend a Catholic mass but they were denied participation in the communion service although told they could come forward for a blessing. They walked out and I felt like leaving with them. This was Catholic policy but seemed so unkind and unhospitable to both of us. And then the pedophile scandal was revealed which shook and upset us to the core. Prior to that I saw the error in many doctrines although I didn't see people in our particular congregation worshipping Mary. I could not accept the church's teaching on Mary, however. I finally decided to exit once again and this time on my own. It was really hard but within a few years my husband decided to attend my church rather than the RCC.

I wish I had done that sooner. Now together since we moved into the city we are now involved in a solid bible believing church..a big one but we also are involved in a small prayer group which ministers to others in hospitals, etc. We went through all of the newcomer classes. I especially appreciate that communion in the services is open to all Christians.

God hear my prayers and moved us both to a much better place for which I praise Him daily.

peace and blessings,

owl