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Fenris
Feb 28th 2008, 02:16 PM
In response to a couple of posts from other members here, I am going to start a thread on who I believe Jesus to be.

A couple of disclaimers: I have no intention of disparaging Christianity or Christians. I am only expressing an opinion based on my own religious education combined with my own personal study of the subject.
I also have to add that this opinion is mine and mine alone. I do not speak for anyone else when I make my points. So you could view my opinion as one possible from a religious Jewish viewpoint.

It is my opinion, based on the material in the NT that is then compared to the Jewish written and oral bible, that Jesus was a Pharisee rabbi. To give strength to the point, I am going to post verses from the Sermon on the Mount and show similar verses in the Jewish bible.

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom.

Proverbs 29:23...he who is lowly in spirit shall obtain honor.

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Matthew 5:4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Psalms 147:3 He heals the brokenhearted, and binds up their wounds.

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Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Psalms 37:11 The meek shall inherit the earth, and delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

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Matthew 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Psalms 5:13 You do bless the righteous, O L--rd; You do encompass him with favor as with a shield.

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Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Talmud, Shabbath 151b Rabbi Gamliel said: "Whoever has mercy upon creatures will be granted mercy from heaven...."


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Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see G--d.

Psalms 24:3--4 Who shall ascend the mount of the L--rd, and who shall stand in His holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart....


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Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of G--d.

Psalms 34:15...seek peace and pursue it.



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Matthew 5:10--11 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

Talmud, Baba Kamma 93a Rabbi Abbahu said: "A man should always try to be among the persecuted rather than the persecutors...."



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Matthew 5:24 ...leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Talmud, Aboth 5:14 ...hard to anger and easily reconciled is a kindly man.


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Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Talmud, Kallah, Chapter 1 He who regards a woman with an impure intention is as if he had already had relations with her.


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Matthew 5:32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress....

Talmud, Gittin 90a The school of Shammai said: "A man should not divorce his wife unless he finds her guilty of an unseemly thing."


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Matthew 5:37 Let what you say be simply "Yes" or "No"....

Talmud, Baba Mezia 49 Rabbi Judah said: "...your `yes' shall be true, and your `no' shall be true."


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Matthew 5:39 ...but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also....

Lamentations 3:30 Let him offer his cheek to him who smites him....


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Matthew 5:42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

Psalms 37:21 ...the righteous deals graciously and gives.

Psalms 37:26 All day he deals graciously and lends....



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Matthew 5:44 But I say to you: "Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you...."

Proverbs 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat, and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink....



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Matthew 5:45 ...so that you may be sons of your Father Who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Ecclesiastes 9:2 All things come alike to all; there is one event for the righteous and for the wicked....



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Matthew 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Talmud, Shabbath 133b Abba Saul said: "Be like Him...just as He is gracious and compassionate, so you be gracious and compassionate."



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Matthew 6:3--4 But when you give charity, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your charity may be in secret....

Talmud, Baba Bathra 9b Rabbi Eleazar said: "A man who gives charity in secret is greater..."


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Matthew 6:7 And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Talmud, Berakoth 61a Rabbi Huna said in the name of Rabbi Meir: "A man's words should always be few in addressing G--d...."



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Matthew 6:14--15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Talmud, Rosh Hashanah 17a Whose sin does He forgive? Him who forgives transgression....


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Matthew 6:19--20 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Talmud, Baba Bathra 11a After King Monbas' family rebuked him for giving away all the family's treasures, he answered: "My ancestors stored treasures here below, and I store treasures in heaven....My ancestors stored treasures in a place that could be reached by human hands, but I have stored [them] in a place that can be reached by no human hand...."



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Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve G--d and mammon [riches].

Proverbs 30:8--9 ...give me neither poverty nor riches....Lest I become full and deny You, and say: "Who is the L--rd?"....

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Matthew 6:26 Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them....

Psalms 147:9 He gives to the beast his food, and to the young ravens that cry.


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Matthew 6:33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.

Psalms 37:4 Delight yourself in the L--rd, and He shall give you the desires of your heart.



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Matthew 6:34 Therefore, do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself....

Talmud, Sotah 48b Rabbi Eliezer said: "He who has only a morsel of bread in his basket, and asks: `What shall I eat tomorrow?' is a man of little faith."



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Matthew 6:34 ...let the day's own trouble be sufficient for the day.

Talmud, Berakoth 9b Moses said to G--d: "L--rd of the universe, sufficient is the evil in its time!"

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Matthew 7:1--2 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Talmud, Shabbath 127b Our Rabbis taught: "He who judges his neighbor favorably is himself judged favorably."

Talmud, Sotah 8bRabbi Meir said: "The way one measures others will be meted out for him."


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Matthew 7:3--5 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the beam that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother: "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Talmud, Arakin 16b Rabbi Tarfon said: "...for if one says to him: `Remove the speck from between your eyes,' he would answer: `Remove the beam from between your eyes!' "



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Matthew 7:6 Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.

Proverbs 23:9 Do not speak in the ears of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words.



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Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Jeremiah 29:13 You shall seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.



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Matthew 7:12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

Talmud, Shabbath 31a Rabbi Hillel said: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Law; the rest is its commentary. Go and learn it!"
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Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them: "I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."

Psalms 6:9 Depart from me, all you workers of evil....

Fenris
Feb 28th 2008, 02:25 PM
I do not believe that Jesus intended to start a new religion. He may indeed have seen himself as the messiah, but if he did it was in the Jewish sense of the word: a righteous man who would remove Roman oppression of Judea. There were several others contemporaneous with him. Some, like Judas of Galilee, Theudas, and Simon bar Kosiba led violent revolts against Rome. Others, like Jesus, 'The Egyptian prophet (name unknown) and Moses of Crete, we pacifists who beloved that God would fight for them.

daughter
Feb 28th 2008, 05:00 PM
Hi Fenris. Thanks for taking the time to post this... and I hope that nobody takes offense at this thread. The Scriptures you posted are very interesting indeed.

Fenris
Feb 28th 2008, 05:02 PM
Well, you asked a good question, so I am trying to provide a complete answer.

th1bill
Feb 28th 2008, 05:51 PM
Well, you asked a good question, so I am trying to provide a complete answer.
Well studied post. From my standing what I see most of all is the unchanging God. Naturally, as a Christian, I see God in the flesh of man when I look at Jesus and although there is a great movement afoot today to prove that God changed during the 400 odd years that He was unheard from your post proves that when He visited the nation of Israel in the flesh there was no change but instead He gave a better understanding of His Law.

Kahtar
Feb 28th 2008, 06:19 PM
Good thread Fenris. Give us more............:)

Fenris
Feb 28th 2008, 06:21 PM
Good thread Fenris. Give us more............:)I will but I must consult some books at home and take some notes.

Kahtar
Feb 28th 2008, 06:25 PM
We're patient.....:D

RoadWarrior
Feb 28th 2008, 06:27 PM
I like it too. :hug:

militarywife
Feb 28th 2008, 06:37 PM
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing with us.:)

daughter
Feb 28th 2008, 06:47 PM
I was speaking to a Messianic Jew on Saturday, and someone had the cheek to criticise her for giving out free scriptures on a Sabbath. She pointed out it was lawful to do good on a Sabbath, but the guy continued to criticise her, saying she should ditch Judaism and the law, and just "be a proper Christian", because Christ abolished the Torah.

She replied, "Jesus IS the Law."

Sorry if that sounds like gobbledegook Fenris... I guess I just wanted to share it with you as an interesting point. Seems by the way that Jews can't do anything right in some people's book, even when they become Christian! The same guy later on was making jokes about eating pork, and how his wife was a "proper Jew" because she was mean.

I don't understand why the organisers didn't throw him out. :mad: You'd have thought those attitudes would have died out by now.

Fenris
Feb 28th 2008, 07:08 PM
She replied, "Jesus IS the Law."

I have to make a comment about this one line.

Christianity is a principle-based religion.

Judaism is a law-based religion.

If you think about the difference just based on those ideas, it explains a lot of how we see God, the world, and man's mission here so differently.

Teke
Feb 28th 2008, 10:17 PM
I have to make a comment about this one line.

Christianity is a principle-based religion.

Judaism is a law-based religion.

If you think about the difference just based on those ideas, it explains a lot of how we see God, the world, and man's mission here so differently.

Actually Christianity started out as "law based" in the sense that it used the "canon" of scripture as it's guide or blueprint, so to speak. But some of Christianity took a different turn.

But justice from law should be tempered with mercy, as our heavenly Father has directed us.

Fenris
Feb 28th 2008, 10:27 PM
But justice from law should be tempered with mercy, as our heavenly Father has directed us.

...as I said, Christianity is a principle-based religion. Thank you very much for demonstrating the point.

Teke
Feb 28th 2008, 10:45 PM
...as I said, Christianity is a principle-based religion. Thank you very much for demonstrating the point.

You must've missed the point then. A "canon" is a "law'.

Fenris
Feb 28th 2008, 10:53 PM
You must've missed the point then. A "canon" is a "law'.I'm tired of arguing semantics with you, teke. Have a nice day.

th1bill
Feb 29th 2008, 02:31 AM
I'm tired of arguing semantics with you, teke. Have a nice day.
I emailed the quote and I have had a couple of very Godly teachers respond stating what a blessing it was to receive that insight. And Fenris, you show so much character by refusing to quivel. i find your posts very refreshing, even when I do not post to them.

Clavicula_Nox
Feb 29th 2008, 03:44 AM
I emailed the quote and I have had a couple of very Godly teachers respond stating what a blessing it was to receive that insight. And Fenris, you show so much character by refusing to quivel. i find your posts very refreshing, even when I do not post to them.

Yup, me too. :)

daughter
Feb 29th 2008, 11:01 AM
Here's a wonderful story about David... you know at the end of Samuel, when he returns to Israel? Someone said to me that David was unforgiving, because he locked up the ten concubines who'd had sex with Absalom.

Well, I feel they were missing the point. David would have been within his rights to have each and every one of them stoned to death. Instead he provided for them for the rest of their lives. They lived as "widows." They had done a very wrong thing (possibly under pressure) but David was merciful, and followed the "spirit" of the law, rather than the letter. He had himself committed adultery, and who would he be to judge the women?

This makes me feel that even though Judaism is a law based religion, someone like David, who struggled to follow after God, can interpret those laws through mercy rather than judgement.

David could be fierce, but he sought to be a man after God's heart, as I believe this incident shows.

Soupy
Feb 29th 2008, 11:07 AM
wonderful post Daughter :)

Fenris
Feb 29th 2008, 11:19 AM
I emailed the quote and I have had a couple of very Godly teachers respond stating what a blessing it was to receive that insight. And Fenris, you show so much character by refusing to quivel. i find your posts very refreshing, even when I do not post to them.Thank you, guys. :)

Fenris
Feb 29th 2008, 11:25 AM
This makes me feel that even though Judaism is a law based religion, someone like David, who struggled to follow after God, can interpret those laws through mercy rather than judgement.


That's true and goes back to the idea of Jesus being a Pharisee. The Pharisees too tried to interpret the law with mercy.

One example: The bible very plainly states that all loans are forgiven on the 'sabbatical' 7th year. This caused a problem because people who had money would not lend it to the poor as the 7th year drew close, knowing they would never get it back.

The rabbis fixed this problem by creating a document that stated that the money was not being lent to the poor person, but to the court as a proxy. The court had the power to collect the loan even after it would otherwise be nullified by the sabbatical year. This ensured that the poor would always be able to obtain loans.

daughter
Feb 29th 2008, 11:34 AM
The bible very plainly states that all loans are forgiven on the 'sabbatical' 7th year.
Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...

My gut feeling is that the prophesied Millenial Kingdom, when there will be peace on earth, the lion will lie down with the lamb, etc represents a kind of "sabbath" in which all our debts are forgiven and redeemed. Does this make sense to you, Fenris?

Fenris
Feb 29th 2008, 11:39 AM
My gut feeling is that the prophesied Millenial Kingdom, when there will be peace on earth, the lion will lie down with the lamb, etc represents a kind of "sabbath" in which all our debts are forgiven and redeemed. Does this make sense to you, Fenris?
Yes.

You've stumbled onto another topic here.


The present world is like the six days of the week. We work.
The post-messianic world is like the sabbath, when we rest and enjoy the fruits of our labor.

Teke
Feb 29th 2008, 02:23 PM
I'm tired of arguing semantics with you, teke. Have a nice day.

I wasn't arguing, but clarifying FYI. If you or others believe that scripture is not our guideline, then that is your prerogative not a semantic.

You have a nice day as well. :)

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 03:24 PM
Hello Fenris...I don't think we have meant before. Nice to meet you. I am a bit lost here about what is going on in regards to this thread...I was gone from the board for awhile and some things have changed. So I don't know if this is ok for me to ask or not...but I guess I won't know until I ask! lol.

And I don't want to derail the topic either...maybe another thread could be started or something. Anyway I was just wanting to know if I could pick your brain so to speak on some passages in the OT and how you view them as a Jew? Not to debate or anything like that, but for me to gain some personal knowledge in how the Jews view certain passages in the bible because frankly we are pretty dense (ok I guess I shouldn't say 'we', but me anyway) about how some verses should be understood. I would just be thrilled to pieces though to have a chance to talk to someone that knows more then I do about that time and culture and how you view these verses. It would give me greater insight to them. Thanks for your time.

God bless

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 03:34 PM
In regards to the topic at hand, yes Jesus was refereed to as a rabbi and a teacher at times:

Matthew 26:48-50

48 Now His betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the One; seize Him.” 49 Immediately he went up to Jesus and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed Him.

Mark 14:

44 Now His betrayer had given them a signal, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the One; seize Him and lead Him away safely.”
45 As soon as he had come, immediately he went up to Him and said to Him, “Rabbi, Rabbi!” and kissed Him.
46 Then they laid their hands on Him and took Him.


Matthew 9:11
And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

Matthew 19:16
[ Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler ] Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

Matthew 26:18
And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”

Mark 5:35
While He was still speaking, some came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house who said, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?”

Its goes on and on...not sure if that was ok for not for me to add these, since I am not really sure what is going on in regards to this thread...I guess if not, a mod can delete it.

God bless

Fenris
Feb 29th 2008, 03:35 PM
Hello Fenris...I don't think we have meant before. Nice to meet you. The pleasure is all mine!



And I don't want to derail the topic either...maybe another thread could be started or something. Anyway I was just wanting to know if I could pick your brain so to speak on some passages in the OT and how you view them as a Jew? Not to debate or anything like that, but for me to gain some personal knowledge in how the Jews view certain passages in the bible because frankly we are pretty dense (ok I guess I shouldn't say 'we', but me anyway) about how some verses should be understood. I would just be thrilled to pieces though to have a chance to talk to someone that knows more then I do about that time and culture and how you view these verses. It would give me greater insight to them. Thanks for your time.

God bless
It would be my pleasure. If you would care to start a thread with the verses in question, I would be happy to tell you how Jews read them.

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 03:51 PM
Ok thanks...give me a little bit to find the ones I am curious about.

I guess I will post them on this form...(not sure what the posting rules are for you on here).

God bless

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 04:38 PM
Ok I put the post here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=117571

I just now realized you have several threads going! One is so long I would never get it all read but it did answer one of my questions on what Jews do for today on atonement. Anyway I hope I am not just repeating questions already asked of you...sorry if I did...I just flat didn't see those other threads...:rolleyes:


God bless

Fenris
Feb 29th 2008, 04:44 PM
I just now realized you have several threads going! One is so long I would never get it all read but it did answer one of my questions on what Jews do for today on atonement. I know my head is spinning too :lol:

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 04:54 PM
I know my head is spinning too :lol:

Poor guy...well hang in there and have patience with us! I gotta go for awhile but be back later. Have a blessed day and blessed Sabbath!

I have a link to the Western Wall there in Jerusalem where I can watch what is going on...though they shut the camera down for the Sabbath..I have no clue what is going on...well a vague idea, I mean I know they are praying and reading prayers and scriptures...maybe sometime I can post the link and you can you tell me what they are doing...:)


God bless

Fenris
Feb 29th 2008, 06:36 PM
Poor guy...well hang in there and have patience with us! I gotta go for awhile but be back later. Have a blessed day and blessed Sabbath!

It always is, thank you. And may yours be as well. :)

2Witnesses
Mar 1st 2008, 04:39 AM
Fenris,

I am late to this discussion. But I would like to contribute. I agree with you that Jeshua never intended to start a 'new religion'. I just happen to think though that He was the fulfillment of the promise in Jeremiah to present the New Covenant.

The foundation of the Christian faith is Isa. 53. And upon its bases God, in Yeshua, established His New Covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah.

And though this covenant began in Jacob, it was never meant to remain there. For in it is also the promise that His salvation would reach the ends of the earth, including all peoples.

Sadly, Jews faded from this promise rather quickly after the gospel went to the nations. But a promise remains that the rest of the remnant will find its rest.

So today God is removing the Veil, giving Jews 'eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to believe YeshuaHaMoshiach. And perhaps you will be one of these chosen.

So be it!

2Witnesses

Fenris
Mar 2nd 2008, 06:05 PM
Fenris,

I am late to this discussion. Better late than never, I always say!


But I would like to contribute. I agree with you that Jeshua never intended to start a 'new religion'. I just happen to think though that He was the fulfillment of the promise in Jeremiah to present the New Covenant.
Be that as it may, Christianity is plainly a different religion from Judaism.


The foundation of the Christian faith is Isa. 53.I realize this. Jews do t understand the passage the way Christians do, though.


And upon its bases God, in Yeshua, established His New Covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah. Except that Israel wasn't even around during his lifetime. They had been exiled 700 years earlier and are still presumed to be 'lost'.


And though this covenant began in Jacob, it was never meant to remain there. For in it is also the promise that His salvation would reach the ends of the earth, including all peoples.Well, the word 'salvation' means something different to Jews than to Christians. In any case, non-Jews have access to God too.


Sadly, Jews faded from this promise rather quickly after the gospel went to the nations. But a promise remains that the rest of the remnant will find its rest.Uh huh.


So today God is removing the Veil, giving Jews 'eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to believe YeshuaHaMoshiach. And perhaps you will be one of these chosen.Uh huh.


So be it!One of my favorite lines from one of my favorite movies.

daughter
Mar 3rd 2008, 02:36 PM
Hey Fenris... I'd be interested in a study on Isaiah 53 from your point of view. Thankyou!

Fenris
Mar 3rd 2008, 02:43 PM
Hey Fenris... I'd be interested in a study on Isaiah 53 from your point of view. Thankyou!
I've done some posting on it here in the past. Let me see if I can find it and perhaps clarify it.

Fenris
Mar 3rd 2008, 03:05 PM
Here's what I posted earlier:


To start: Who is the servant? Let's look at other instances of the 'servant' in Isaiah.

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)

[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)

[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)

[45:4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)

[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)

So in all these other instances, at least, the servant's identity is obvious. The servant is all the Jewish people.

Now, on to the chapter in question. The chapter actually begins at 52:13, so we'll start it there.

[52:13] Behold, My servant will succeed; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty. [14] Just as multitudes were astonished over you, [saying,] ‘His appearance is too marred to be a man’s, and his visage to be human,’ [15] so will the many nations exclaim about him, and kings will shut their mouths , for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard. [53:1] Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed!

This is speaking of the messianic era, when the formerly despised Jews will be recognized as having been right all along. The speaker in 53:1 is the nations and kings in the previous verse.

[2] Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire.

The nations are still speaking here, about how the Jewish people were undesirable in the past.

[3] He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.

Indeed, in exile the Jews were despised and poorly treated.

[4] But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried – but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by God, and afflicted!
[5] He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed..

Here, the nations will realize that while they considered the Jews stricken by God, it was really the nations themselves that were afflicting the Jews. Rashi says on this verse :


Indeed, he bore our illnesses Heb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.

Redak states that Israel accepted the punishment of exile as a price to save the rest of the world.

Notice the past tense 'through his wounds, we were healed', because the nations are looking back at history.

A possible explanation of "it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried" was the tendency of nations to blame all their problems on the Jews, from economic woes to the black plague.



[6] We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and the Lord inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all.

The nations will realize that they were wrong, that they 'strayed like sheep'.

[7] He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth.

What's interesting about this verse is that this is exactly how the Jews were described during the Holocaust: Like sheep to the slaughter...

[8] Now that he had been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people’s sin.

Again, the nations are surprised at the Jewish people. The phrase 'removed from the land of the living ' does not necessarily mean death. The land of Israel is called 'the land of the living' in Ezekiel, so being removed from it may indeed refer to exile.

[9] He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his executions, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth.

On the grave like wicked men, Rashi says

He subjected himself to be buried according to anything the wicked of the nations would decree upon him, for they would penalize him with death and the burial of donkeys in the intestines of the dogs.

[10] The Lord desired to oppress him and afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of the Lord would succeed in his hand.

Basically, God punished the Jews to make us repent. The speaker from here on out is God.

[11] He would see [the purpose] and be satisfied with his soul’s distress. With his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will bear

Ibn Ezra explains the iniquities as Israel sympathizing with the suffering the nations will receive as punishment for their treatment of the Jews.

Rashi makes the connection to Numbers 18:1 The Lord said to Aaron: You, your sons and your father's house shall bear the iniquity associated with the Sanctuary... and states that it becomes their responsibility to warn others not to transgress, as Aaron and his sons were to do.

[12] Therefore, I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils – in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked for he bore the sin of the multitudes and prayed for the wicked.

On this verse, Rashi says


[I]and with transgressors he was counted He suffered torments as if he had sinned and transgressed, and this is because of others; he bore the sin of the many.
and interceded for the transgressors through his sufferings, for good came to the world through him.
Ibn Ezra and Redak note that despite their suffering,the Jews continued to pray for the nations to which they were exiled.


So in the balance, it's quite cryptic because it's a prophecy. But it doesn't have to refer to Jesus.

daughter
Mar 4th 2008, 02:19 PM
Thanks Fenris. As you know, I'm learning Hebrew, and I can imagine I'll find lots of things in the original that don't quite make it through into any translations.

I still think this passage refers to Jesus though... but I can see why you don't.

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 02:42 PM
Thanks Fenris. As you know, I'm learning Hebrew, and I can imagine I'll find lots of things in the original that don't quite make it through into any translations.
If you're going to study just one verse in the whole chapter, read verse 5. The actual translation should be 'from our sins' and not 'for our sins'.
Basic Hebrew grammar.



I still think this passage refers to Jesus though... but I can see why you don't.
I still think it doesn't...but I see why you do.

2Witnesses
Mar 4th 2008, 05:55 PM
Hi Fenris,

Thanks so much for your reply. But, 'from', 'for'? Are we not cutting rabinacal hairs' here?

Isa 53 teaches one must atone for the sins of those who are sinners. And how is this possible but He is without sin?

'Israel' could not atone for his own sin.! But another could. And I know this is the 'stone of stumbling.' But Yeshua is Immanuel.

God, in Messiach, forgave Israel. And I do not care if 'Israel' was around then, or now. You do not understand prophecy!

Today He is calling the rest of the remnant of Jacob. And this is as promised in Jeremiah, of Ephriam.

Fenris, do you believe the Prophets?

2Witnesses

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 06:20 PM
Hi Fenris,Hi.


Thanks so much for your reply. But, 'from', 'for'? Are we not cutting rabinacal hairs' here?I don't think it's hairsplitting at all. Especially if you're going to base your theology around a mistranslated word.


Isa 53 teaches one must atone for the sins of those who are sinners. And how is this possible but He is without sin?No, it's talking about a suffering servant who is eventually vindicated. You believe that the servant is Jesus and so he must be atoning for others, but that isn't the only way to read the text.


'Israel' could not atone for his own sin.!Why not?


But Yeshua is Immanuel.
Again, you believe this to be so. It isn't a fact though.


God, in Messiach, forgave Israel.Why couldn't God forgive Israel without coming down to earth? He is God, isn't He?


And I do not care if 'Israel' was around then, or now. Huh?


You do not understand prophecy!Well it's quite cryptic by nature. But I don't see any inherent advantages of your definition over mine.


Today He is calling the rest of the remnant of Jacob.
Which is who?


And this is as promised in Jeremiah, of Ephriam.Ephraim is one of the Ten Tribes, lost in Jesus's time and still lost today.


Fenris, do you believe the Prophets?Of course. I believe that the messiah will come and gather all the exiled Jews back to Israel and rebuild the Temple and usher in an era of world peace and universal knowledge of God. Just like the prophets said.

daughter
Mar 4th 2008, 06:27 PM
Why couldn't God forgive Israel without coming down to earth? He is God, isn't He?
I agree with that point Fenris... But I think that it makes it all the more awe inspiring that God DID come down to earth. And if He was going to come down, He'd have to come as a Jew, wouldn't He?

But as for your last comment - I completely agree with that. I'm expecting a return of Messiah, you're expecting His first coming. Whatever happens, the Redeemer is on His way. :)
Of course. I believe that the messiah will come and gather all the exiled Jews back to Israel and rebuild the Temple and usher in an era of world peace and universal knowledge of God. Just like the prophets said.

HisLeast
Mar 4th 2008, 06:33 PM
Well, the word 'salvation' means something different to Jews than to Christians. In any case, non-Jews have access to God too.

Hey Fenris,

An ignorant question I'm sure, but an innocent one: How does a non Jew access G-d? Is it by becoming a Jew, complete with circumcision, Mikvah, etc?

daughter
Mar 4th 2008, 06:36 PM
I think Fenris has answered this before... it's by keeping the Noahidic laws, am I right? You don't have to be a Jew to be righteous, at least that was my understanding.

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 06:59 PM
I agree with that point Fenris... But I think that it makes it all the more awe inspiring that God DID come down to earth.
Jewish thought is that God does not exist within the confines of our universe; our universe exists within the confines of God. Saying that an infinite God could fit into a finite space is like saying that the ocean could fit in my bathtub.

Jewish thinking doesn't make allowances for such.


And if He was going to come down, He'd have to come as a Jew, wouldn't He?Well, we don't see God as Jewish. He isn't a person at all.


But as for your last comment - I completely agree with that. I'm expecting a return of Messiah, you're expecting His first coming. Whatever happens, the Redeemer is on His way. :)Speedily, within our day!:)

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 07:01 PM
Hey Fenris,

An ignorant question I'm sure, but an innocent one: How does a non Jew access G-d? Is it by becoming a Jew, complete with circumcision, Mikvah, etc?
Just speak to Him.

Psalm 145: God is near to all who call upon Him.

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 07:02 PM
I think Fenris has answered this before... it's by keeping the Noahidic laws, am I right? You don't have to be a Jew to be righteous, at least that was my understanding.
Yes, that's it.

God does not expect everyone to keep the burden of the entire Torah, but he does expect us all to lead moral lives.

RoadWarrior
Mar 4th 2008, 07:24 PM
Yes, that's it.

God does not expect everyone to keep the burden of the entire Torah, but he does expect us all to lead moral lives.

Your comment reminds me of this, which was in the Ask Marilyn column in the weekend Parade:



...what is the best barometer of a country's morality?

answer: The esteem in which society holds its elderly.

daughter
Mar 4th 2008, 07:33 PM
Well, we don't see God as Jewish. He isn't a person at all.
I didn't mean that I think God Himself is Jewish... simply that if He chose a people then He had a very good reason for it. He said to Abraham that through his seed all the nations of the world would be blessed, and of course as a Christian I believe that is fulfilled in Christ. But even on a more mundane level, Jews make up a very small percentage of the world's population... yet look how much has been contributed to the sciences alone by Jews.

I think of God as creating a special people among whom He could live in person, as He dwelt with your ancestors in the desert... It's for this reason I think that John said, "the word was made flesh and tabernacled amongst us". (The word usually translated from Greek as "dwelt/lived" etc is in fact a verbal form of "tabernacle.") In the same way that Solomon could hardly wrap his great intellect around the fact that God chose to dwell in a Temple made with human hands, so it's all but impossible to comprehend that He dwelt in a fleshly tabernacle concieved in the womb of a virgin.

God was a long time fashioning His people, and His bodily home... and I do believe that is why Jesus was born Jewish, and why God will never ever abandon His people, no matter what.

I know you disagree with me of course!

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 07:59 PM
I didn't mean that I think God Himself is Jewish... simply that if He chose a people then He had a very good reason for it. He said to Abraham that through his seed all the nations of the world would be blessed, and of course as a Christian I believe that is fulfilled in Christ. But even on a more mundane level, Jews make up a very small percentage of the world's population... yet look how much has been contributed to the sciences alone by Jews. I think you make a good point, and it isn't mundane at all. For example, how much human suffering was eliminated from something like the polio vaccine?


I think of God as creating a special people among whom He could live in person, as He dwelt with your ancestors in the desert... It's for this reason I think that John said, "the word was made flesh and tabernacled amongst us". (The word usually translated from Greek as "dwelt/lived" etc is in fact a verbal form of "tabernacle.") In the same way that Solomon could hardly wrap his great intellect around the fact that God chose to dwell in a Temple made with human hands, so it's all but impossible to comprehend that He dwelt in a fleshly tabernacle concieved in the womb of a virgin.

God was a long time fashioning His people, and His bodily home... and I do believe that is why Jesus was born Jewish, and why God will never ever abandon His people, no matter what.

I know you disagree with me of course!
Well, we can agree to disagree. :hug:
We're working together to make this world a place in which God can dwell. That's what's really important.

RoadWarrior
Mar 4th 2008, 08:21 PM
I...We're working together to make this world a place in which God can dwell. That's what's really important.

Fenris, I find this a fascinating concept, and much at variance with what many Christians believe. There is a powerful belief that this world cannot be fixed and we are just waiting for the Messiah to come and rescue us, and to destroy the world. I think maybe we have missed something. How do you view the concept of making this world a place in which God can dwell? Also, how do you see us both (Jews and Christians) working together to make this happen?

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 08:37 PM
Fenris, I find this a fascinating concept, and much at variance with what many Christians believe. There is a powerful belief that this world cannot be fixed and we are just waiting for the Messiah to come and rescue us, and to destroy the world. I think maybe we have missed something.
Well, this is one major difference between us. Christians believe that the messiah is necessary for us to defeat evil. Jews believe that we are capable of defeating evil on our own (see Genesis 4:6 sin coucheth at the door; and unto thee is its desire, but thou mayest rule over it.) and the messiah is the reward for having done so on a national level.


How do you view the concept of making this world a place in which God can dwell?By living moral lives and carrying out actions that God asks of us in the bible. By so doing, we infuse the physical world with holiness.

As an aside, my rabbi gave a sermon once on why Jews are so successful at making money. He said it has nothing to do with being economically clever. It is so because God wants us to have money. Because we can take money, a physical object, and do a Mitzvah with it and turn it into a spiritual object.


Also, how do you see us both (Jews and Christians) working together to make this happen?Because both groups are carrying out God's will and making this world a holy place. We share the same holy book and have the same essential value system.

I think it is especially powerful when Christian Zionists speak out on Israel's behalf.

RoadWarrior
Mar 4th 2008, 08:57 PM
Well, this is one major difference between us. Christians believe that the messiah is necessary for us to defeat evil. Jews believe that we are capable of defeating evil on our own (see Genesis 4:6 sin coucheth at the door; and unto thee is its desire, but thou mayest rule over it.) and the messiah is the reward for having done so on a national level.
This is one of my favorite verses! I do believe that it is by the help of the Holy Spirit than I am able to overcome evil in my own life; but also that I play a part in that battle.



By living moral lives and carrying out actions that God asks of us in the bible. By so doing, we infuse the physical world with holiness.

How is it different, the things we do, versus the "good things" that anyone can do, of any religion?



As an aside, my rabbi gave a sermon once on why Jews are so successful at making money. He said it has nothing to do with being economically clever. It is so because God wants us to have money. Because we can take money, a physical object, and do a Mitzvah with it and turn it into a spiritual object.

Another interesting concept! It sounds as if all action in the world exists on two levels, the physical and the spiritual - for good or for evil.



Because both groups are carrying out God's will and making this world a holy place. We share the same holy book and have the same essential value system.

I think it is especially powerful when Christian Zionists speak out on Israel's behalf.


How do you see Islam in this picture? Don't they also claim to be a people of "the Book?"

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 09:10 PM
This is one of my favorite verses! I do believe that it is by the help of the Holy Spirit than I am able to overcome evil in my own life; but also that I play a part in that battle.I would say it isn't the holy spirit. It's you and you alone. Which makes it even better.



How is it different, the things we do, versus the "good things" that anyone can do, of any religion?
Well, God laid out in the bible exactly which good things He wants. Some are parts of other religions as well, but not all of it is.

So if you do something as proscribed in the bible, you do in fact make the world a holier place. But only the Jews follow all the bible, more or less, as is our responsibility.


Another interesting concept! It sounds as if all action in the world exists on two levels, the physical and the spiritual - for good or for evil.Yes, and it is mankind's responsibility to infuse the physical world with spirituality.




How do you see Islam in this picture? Don't they also claim to be a people of "the Book?"So they claim, but they are more at odds with Jews and Christians than working in tandem with us. Islam has done a decent job of civilizing the arab world, and I assume it serves God's purpose in some way... but it's not always easy to see how.

RoadWarrior
Mar 4th 2008, 09:17 PM
I would say it isn't the holy spirit. It's you and you alone. Which makes it even better.


Well, God laid out in the bible exactly which good things He wants. Some are parts of other religions as well, but not all of it is.

So if you do something as proscribed in the bible, you do in fact make the world a holier place. But only the Jews follow all the bible, more or less, as is our responsibility.

Yes, and it is mankind's responsibility to infuse the physical world with spirituality.


So they claim, but they are more at odds with Jews and Christians than working in tandem with us. Islam has done a decent job of civilizing the arab world, and I assume it serves God's purpose in some way... but it's not always easy to see how.

But Fenris! There is SOOOOO much evil in the world! How can it ever be possible to overcome it?

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 09:24 PM
But Fenris! There is SOOOOO much evil in the world! How can it ever be possible to overcome it?
We can't overcome all the evil in the world. But that isn't our mission. We're to overcome the evil within ourselves first. That we are capable of doing. And then when we act to fix the world, God will help us.

RoadWarrior
Mar 4th 2008, 09:41 PM
We can't overcome all the evil in the world. But that isn't our mission. We're to overcome the evil within ourselves first. That we are capable of doing. And then when we act to fix the world, God will help us.

Does He help us with the evil in ourselves?

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 09:45 PM
Does He help us with the evil in ourselves?If we make a genuine effort, I am sure he does.

daughter
Mar 4th 2008, 10:00 PM
As an aside, my rabbi gave a sermon once on why Jews are so successful at making money. He said it has nothing to do with being economically clever. It is so because God wants us to have money. Because we can take money, a physical object, and do a Mitzvah with it and turn it into a spiritual object.

As another aside, this notion that money is a blessing that carries responsibility, a mitzvah that when fulfilled can make the world a better place, would completely wipe out the false prosperity gospel that so many alleged Christians are falling for. It puts the weight of money in a completely different light.

But prosperity gospel is something that really annoys me, and this is perhaps not the place. However... I think your rabbi was right on this one Fenris.

RoadWarrior
Mar 4th 2008, 10:02 PM
If we make a genuine effort, I am sure he does.

I have a tendency to lean on verses like this one:
Ps 46:1-2
46 God is our refuge and strength,
A very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore we will not fear,
Even though the earth be removed,
And though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
NKJV

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 10:33 PM
As another aside, this notion that money is a blessing that carries responsibility, a mitzvah that when fulfilled can make the world a better place, would completely wipe out the false prosperity gospel that so many alleged Christians are falling for. It puts the weight of money in a completely different light.Well, let's just say that prosperity and power is both a reward and a test. And it's a very difficult test, one that's very easy to fail.

Fenris
Mar 4th 2008, 10:34 PM
I have a tendency to lean on verses like this one:
Ps 46:1-2
46 God is our refuge and strength,
A very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore we will not fear,
Even though the earth be removed,
And though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
NKJVIt works for me. :)

HisLeast
Mar 5th 2008, 02:50 AM
Well, we can agree to disagree. :hug:
We're working together to make this world a place in which God can dwell. That's what's really important.

Hey Fenris,

But wouldn't Christian's belief that Jesus was/is God ("one with the Father") constitute blasphemy from the Jewish perspective. In that respect, aren't the faiths mutually exclusive?

Toymom
Mar 5th 2008, 03:48 AM
Hi fen! Love the av photo!
I think your list of verses help show that Jesus is God.
But, one should not rely on that alone as "proof" that Jesus is God.
You have to experience Him as such and know Him as God in order to know that He IS.
I went to my cousin's bar mitzvah a couple of weeks ago at a Reform Synagogue that my cousin and sister attend.
They have new Prayer Books and Torahs with comentary.
They are quite interesting.
It seems more and more of a "be a good person" type thing - similar to what I think you were saying.
But, God does not want a bunch of good people.
If that were the case, the Buddhists might win out.
God wants people who will love Him and allow Him to live in them and express Himself through them so that they will be His people and He will be their God and they will not need anyone to teach them who He is because they will know Him.
God created man with a body, soul and spirit. The human spirit is as important to God as the heavens and the earth are - see Zech 12:1.
That is because our human spirit is where God can dwell.
I pray that you will come to know Him in such a wonderful and full way!
He is so rich and wonderful and fantastic and fabulous and incredible and wonderful and merciful and kind and loving and .... there are not enough adjectives to tell how wonderful our God is!

Fenris
Mar 5th 2008, 01:37 PM
Hey Fenris,

But wouldn't Christian's belief that Jesus was/is God ("one with the Father") constitute blasphemy from the Jewish perspective. In that respect, aren't the faiths mutually exclusive?
Not blasphemy. Blasphemy in Judaism refers only to invoking God's name in vain.

Now, for a Jew to worship Jesus would constitute idolatry. For a non-Jew it is an acceptable practice though. According to most opinions, mine included.

Fenris
Mar 5th 2008, 01:42 PM
Hi fen! Love the av photo! Thank you.


I think your list of verses help show that Jesus is God.I feel the opposite. You're certainly entitled to your opinion though!


But, one should not rely on that alone as "proof" that Jesus is God.
You have to experience Him as such and know Him as God in order to know that He IS. And how does one experience Jesus? By believing in him. So it's a circular argument.


I went to my cousin's bar mitzvah a couple of weeks ago at a Reform Synagogue that my cousin and sister attend.
They have new Prayer Books and Torahs with comentary.
They are quite interesting.
It seems more and more of a "be a good person" type thing - similar to what I think you were saying.
But, God does not want a bunch of good people.According to the verses I posted, yes He does.


If that were the case, the Buddhists might win out.They are good people, and I am sure that pleases God.


God wants people who will love Him and allow Him to live in them and express Himself through them so that they will be His people and He will be their God and they will not need anyone to teach them who He is because they will know Him.
That sounds like it could be the Jews, hmm?


God created man with a body, soul and spirit. The human spirit is as important to God as the heavens and the earth are - see Zech 12:1.
That is because our human spirit is where God can dwell.
I pray that you will come to know Him in such a wonderful and full way!
He is so rich and wonderful and fantastic and fabulous and incredible and wonderful and merciful and kind and loving and .... there are not enough adjectives to tell how wonderful our God is!

I feel the same way about God.