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White Spider
Feb 29th 2008, 06:48 AM
Personally I don't understand the fact it seems 99.9% of Christians don't think it's possible to know when Christ will return.

Mark 13:32 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

(CEV puts it more clearly) 1 Thessalonians 5:4 - My dear friends, you don't live in darkness, and so that day won't surprise you like a thief.

Revelation 3:3 - Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

. . . if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief . . . only if we do not wake up, open our eyes, pay attention to what we've been told will He come as a thief.

It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?

Cyberseeker
Feb 29th 2008, 07:10 AM
:huh:

OK spider. Sock it to me.

Rullion Green
Feb 29th 2008, 11:26 AM
When will it be then ?:hmm:

I have no idea but i'll try to follow the Commandments set out for me till the Lord comes again. Predicting a time is a very dangerous thing to do ! william miller done it and was wrong and the Jahova Witness's, anlong with countless others.

I thought the meaning of the text Dont live in darkness ment that we are not to live in sin and be unaware of the Gospel so when the day comes we are not lost.

There is also the words " the angles and the Son dosn't know " so what chance do we have, if Jesus donst know, only the Father ?

My interpretation may be wrong

alethos
Feb 29th 2008, 12:31 PM
Personally I don't understand the fact it seems 99.9% of Christians don't think it's possible to know when Christ will return.

Mark 13:32 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

(CEV puts it more clearly) 1 Thessalonians 5:4 - My dear friends, you don't live in darkness, and so that day won't surprise you like a thief.

Revelation 3:3 - Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

. . . if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief . . . only if we do not wake up, open our eyes, pay attention to what we've been told will He come as a thief.

It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?

Are you awake? Do you know the day and the hour in which He will come?

Theophilus
Feb 29th 2008, 12:48 PM
OK spider. Sock it to me.

:lol: Oh, no...I just had a "Laugh In" flashback...;)

Slug1
Feb 29th 2008, 01:04 PM
Personally I don't understand the fact it seems 99.9% of Christians don't think it's possible to know when Christ will return.

Mark 13:32 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

(CEV puts it more clearly) 1 Thessalonians 5:4 - My dear friends, you don't live in darkness, and so that day won't surprise you like a thief.

Revelation 3:3 - Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

. . . if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief . . . only if we do not wake up, open our eyes, pay attention to what we've been told will He come as a thief.

It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?So are you saying that the scripture, Mark 13:32... is wrong?

HisLeast
Feb 29th 2008, 01:14 PM
" But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. "

Could this mean that the brethren are PREPARED for the times ahead, as opposed to knowing the day or even the season?

What will save man during that time? Will knowing the date/time/season? Not at all. The only thing saving man will be a saving faith in Jesus. So the Father has no reason what-so-ever to tell us the date/time/season. As long as our faith is secure, it won't even matter.

Slug1
Feb 29th 2008, 01:17 PM
" But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. "

Could this mean that the brethren are PREPARED for the times ahead, as opposed to knowing the day or even the season?

What will save man during that time? Will knowing the date/time/season? Not at all. The only thing saving man will be a saving faith in Jesus. So the Father has no reason what-so-ever to tell us the date/time/season. As long as our faith is secure, it won't even matter.This is how I read all the scripture involved. Be ready... don't care about the when cause Jesus doesn't even know when... but JUST BE READY!

HisLeast
Feb 29th 2008, 01:19 PM
No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew.

Can we apply this kind of translation principle to the rest of the old and new testaments? Anything that does explicitly have a future tense can be ignored? Scary stuff.


It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?

Mostly because we've been hearing people who are SO SURE for decades. Its always the same obscure errata hammered over top of vague symbology. The insane part is that some day those people will be right (but only because they're ALWAYS saying it). Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

We could very well be in the last days. But there's no way to know that for sure. The one thing thats absolute, when the Lord comes, we'll know!

Warrior Prophet
Feb 29th 2008, 02:03 PM
JUST BE READY!
good advice since most don't know their own last day and hour

I often wonder why so many focus on the end when their own could be so much sooner

Kahtar
Feb 29th 2008, 02:22 PM
Just a friendly reminder to all that date-setting is against the board rules. So don't go there. Even if you think you know..........


Carry on...........:)

Slug1
Feb 29th 2008, 02:24 PM
good advice since most don't know their own last day and hour

I often wonder why so many focus on the end when their own could be so much sooner

IMO it's the distraction we deal with from the enemy. He'd just love for us to devote time to attempting to discover the time even when scritpure is clear... ONLY the Father knows!

All that time looking for "the time" takes away from what God wants us to be doing instead.

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 02:42 PM
Personally I don't understand the fact it seems 99.9% of Christians don't think it's possible to know when Christ will return.

Mark 13:32 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

(CEV puts it more clearly) 1 Thessalonians 5:4 - My dear friends, you don't live in darkness, and so that day won't surprise you like a thief.

Revelation 3:3 - Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

. . . if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief . . . only if we do not wake up, open our eyes, pay attention to what we've been told will He come as a thief.

It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?

This is about the Day of the Lord, NOT the return of Jesus. This already happened and yes the believers were ready for the judgment that came down on Jerusalem and fled the city as Jesus warned them to do in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. I am not saying this passage means Jesus already had His Second coming because He didn't ...this isn't about that..its about the coming judgment which happened in 70AD in which Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

Read carefully!

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

This passage is about the Day of the Lord NOT the second coming of Christ.

From Adam Clark bible commentary: (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1th&chapter=005)
This figure is perfectly consistent with what the apostle had said before, viz.: that the times and seasons were not known: though the thing itself was expected, our Lord having predicted it in the most positive manner. So, a woman with child knows that, if she be spared, she will have a bearing time; but the week, the day, the hour, she cannot tell. In a great majority of cases the time is accelerated or retarded much before or beyond the time that the woman expected; so, with respect to the Jews, neither the day, week, month, nor year was known. All that was specifically known was this: their destruction was coming, and it should be sudden, and they should not escape.

Luke 21

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

History shows the believers, heeding the Words of Christ, were watchful and on alert. They were watching for armies to surround the city...and when they saw it, they didn't go back for anything as Jesus said not too and fled the city and were spared the wrath of God as promised. Not one believers died in the siege.

God bless

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 03:23 PM
Personally I don't understand the fact it seems 99.9% of Christians don't think it's possible to know when Christ will return.

Mark 13:32 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

(CEV puts it more clearly) 1 Thessalonians 5:4 - My dear friends, you don't live in darkness, and so that day won't surprise you like a thief.

Revelation 3:3 - Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

. . . if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief . . . only if we do not wake up, open our eyes, pay attention to what we've been told will He come as a thief.

It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?

Amen to that Spider!!!!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 03:25 PM
When will it be then ?:hmm:

I have no idea but i'll try to follow the Commandments set out for me till the Lord comes again. Predicting a time is a very dangerous thing to do ! william miller done it and was wrong and the Jahova Witness's, anlong with countless others.

I thought the meaning of the text Dont live in darkness ment that we are not to live in sin and be unaware of the Gospel so when the day comes we are not lost.

There is also the words " the angles and the Son dosn't know " so what chance do we have, if Jesus donst know, only the Father ?

My interpretation may be wrong

Jesus told us to watch for signs that will let us know that his return is near, his word still stands that no one know the day nor the hour.

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 03:32 PM
So are you saying that the scripture, Mark 13:32... is wrong?

He has commanded us to watch;

Mt 24:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mt 25:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mk 13:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Mk 13:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Mk 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Mk 13:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Rev 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Why do you think we have been given the revelation of what is to be?

Rev 1:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 03:35 PM
This is about the Day of the Lord, NOT the return of Jesus. This already happened and yes the believers were ready for the judgment that came down on Jerusalem and fled the city as Jesus warned them to do in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. I am not saying this passage means Jesus already had His Second coming because He didn't ...this isn't about that..its about the coming judgment which happened in 70AD in which Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

Read carefully!

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

This passage is about the Day of the Lord NOT the second coming of Christ.

From Adam Clark bible commentary: (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1th&chapter=005)
This figure is perfectly consistent with what the apostle had said before, viz.: that the times and seasons were not known: though the thing itself was expected, our Lord having predicted it in the most positive manner. So, a woman with child knows that, if she be spared, she will have a bearing time; but the week, the day, the hour, she cannot tell. In a great majority of cases the time is accelerated or retarded much before or beyond the time that the woman expected; so, with respect to the Jews, neither the day, week, month, nor year was known. All that was specifically known was this: their destruction was coming, and it should be sudden, and they should not escape.

Luke 21

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

History shows the believers, heeding the Words of Christ, were watchful and on alert. They were watching for armies to surround the city...and when they saw it, they didn't go back for anything as Jesus said not too and fled the city and were spared the wrath of God as promised. Not one believers died in the siege.

God bless

What is the difference between the day of the Lord, and the return of Jesus?

Slug1
Feb 29th 2008, 03:37 PM
He has commanded us to watch;

Mt 24:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mt 25:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mk 13:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Mk 13:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Mk 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Mk 13:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Rev 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Why do you think we have been given the revelation of what is to be?

Rev 1:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:I fully understand watching but to attempt to determine the moment? Jesus is not even given this information by God so why even attempt to figure it out. Just "be" ready.

DeafPosttrib
Feb 29th 2008, 03:40 PM
1 Thess. 5:4-9 telling us, that we ought to walk in the light, do not walk in the dark.

Being "sleep" means playing with world and sins, not being be prepared for Lord's coming.

We must be awaked up means to set our shield of our defense of our faith, lest anything strike against us to be fall away. We must stand up and hold our hope till the end.

Same idea as what happened to people of Noah's day. They were not aware of flood suddenly came upon them and killed them all. same common sense of the day of the Lord shall come as "thief in the night" which speak of angels shall grab people in shocked and to face Christ, then cast them away into fire - Matt. 24:37-41.

Bible command sus that we must be awake and watch all the times.

Being 'watch' doesn't mean that we look up in the clouds or sky waiting for Lord appears. It means to watch out for our spiritual life, be being guard our faith against the world. Always be ready all the times, because we all shall face the judgment seta of Christ that would be fat the coming of Christ. His coming is like as thief. Do we want to be end up in 'thief'? No. We better be ready so, he shall find us doing well - Matt. 24:44-47.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Clifton
Feb 29th 2008, 03:44 PM
Personally I don't understand the fact it seems 99.9% of Christians don't think it's possible to know when Christ will return.

Mark 13:32 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew.

This is not correct. It is the Greek PERFECT TENSE, and is in the INDICATIVE MOOD (which makes the time element the "primary" force of the verb). For those whom lack verb parsings in their textbooks and/or Bible Software, this can be confirmed at:

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mark&chapter=13&verse=32

Just click on the "(5758)" under the word "knoweth".


1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

(CEV puts it more clearly) 1 Thessalonians 5:4 - My dear friends, you don't live in darkness, and so that day won't surprise you like a thief.This is an analogy before House Alarms came into use.:D It means that the day will come suddenly, as a surprise - without warning, with unexpectedness (which gives me the idea that He will come when everyone quits deciding for Him as to when He comes:)).


Revelation 3:3 - Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

. . . if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief . . . only if we do not wake up, open our eyes, pay attention to what we've been told will He come as a thief.I emphasized the word "to" in your quote to show it does not concur with your follow-up commentary ;)

(ALT) ‘Therefore, be remembering how you have received heard, and be keeping it and repent. Therefore, if you will not watch {fig., keep awake}, I will come upon you like a thief, and you shall by no means know what hour I will come upon you

I see no relation to this verse and the "Second Advent" of Christ - The Greek word "come" here is ηξω <2240 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2240)>. The assemblies were put on alert to repent (cp. Rev. 2:5,16) otherwise Christ would "come upon" them with suddenness. This was applicable back then, and IMO, is applicable now for people - you do not know when Christ may remove you from the Earth or take some action. Not everybody living back then is still living.;)


It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?It is certainly human curiosity but it is not for us to know - we are to be ready at all times, just the people whom lived before us, cause we also do not know (usually) when we are about to die.

Blessings.

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 03:46 PM
Can we apply this kind of translation principle to the rest of the old and new testaments? Anything that does explicitly have a future tense can be ignored? Scary stuff.



Mostly because we've been hearing people who are SO SURE for decades. Its always the same obscure errata hammered over top of vague symbology. The insane part is that some day those people will be right (but only because they're ALWAYS saying it). Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

We could very well be in the last days. But there's no way to know that for sure. The one thing thats absolute, when the Lord comes, we'll know!

I so agree with your post and many others on here. Many dates HAVE been set in stone...with people even quiting their jobs and giving away their belongings to wait on a hill somewhere and nothing happens. This is extremely damaging to people's faith also when they are told God says Jesus will return on such and such date and nothing happens...OR the bible says Jesus will return on such and such date and nothing happens. I see people in a such a state of waiting they literally stop living! On another board where they are all ready and waiting ...there is a thread two years ago where everyone says its any minute now. They have put their lives on hold, making no plans for the future...doing nothing in regards to their faith or even witnessing to others...just waiting. Others go about frantic to try to force people to get saved because its 'any minute now'...and they are in a complete state of panic. Its a terrible thing to see. There is no reason we cannot be watchful and be busy doing the Lord's work at the same time!

God bless

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 03:49 PM
What is the difference between the day of the Lord, and the return of Jesus?

I explained it in my post...what part do I need to clear up?

God bless

Firstfruits
Feb 29th 2008, 04:19 PM
I explained it in my post...what part do I need to clear up?

God bless

Isn't the day of the lord the day that Jesus returns, as there is only one coming of Christ, according to his promise?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Cor 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is one event.

markdrums
Feb 29th 2008, 04:38 PM
Isn't the day of the lord the day that Jesus returns, as there is only one coming of Christ, according to his promise?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Cor 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is one event.


Here are other examples of "The Day of the Lord" in scripture.
What you have to remember is, it's VITAL to read the surrounding verses WITH the examples. (I'll let you research those on your own... because I'm not going to post 100's of verses here.)
I'll give you the examples, where "Day of the Lord" is used, so you know WHERE to read the context of the scripture.
__________________________________________________ _____________

Isa 2:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa002.html#12) For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


Isa 13:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa013.html#6) Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


Isa 13:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa013.html#9) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Jer 46:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jer/Jer046.html#10) For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.


Eze 13:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze013.html#5) Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.


Eze 30:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze030.html#3) For the day [is] near, even the day of the LORD [is] near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.


Joe 1:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Joe/Joe001.html#15) Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.


Joe 2:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Joe/Joe002.html#1) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;


Joe 2:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Joe/Joe002.html#11) And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Joe 2:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Joe/Joe002.html#31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.


Joe 3:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Joe/Joe003.html#14) Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.


Amo 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Amo/Amo005.html#18) Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.


Amo 5:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Amo/Amo005.html#20) [Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Oba 1:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Oba/Oba001.html#15) For the day of the LORD [is] near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.


Zep 1:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Zep/Zep001.html#7) Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD [is] at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 04:57 PM
The implication is that we are to watch for His return and be "a faithful and wise servant" (Matt 24:45) until He comes. If we know exactly the day or hour He was coming, why are we told to watch for His return every day? The reason we watch every day is because we don't know the exact day or hour that He is coming. However, we can know when His return is NEAR (Matt 24:32). Even though we don't know the exact day or hour, if He comes anytime soon, we still won't be surprised because we are expecting Him any time (assuming the falling away has already occurred, but otherwise the falling away has to happen first).

Don't you guys who think we can know the exact day or hour know what you are promoting here? There is a reason why God didn't want anyone to know the day or hour of Christ's return. If we knew the exact day or hour then it would be easy for people to just say "okay, I'm going to do whatever I want in the meantime and once we get within a day or two of His return, then I'll repent and get back to a close relationship with God".

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 05:01 PM
Is not the Lord the same yesterday, today, and forever? Yes. Did He not give Noah the specific date when He would bring the flood? Yes. Did He not give Jonah the specific date he intended to destroy Ninevah? Yes. Why would He be any different today? He won’t be.

You have a point, but I still disagree. Nowhere does Scripture say that no one would know the day or hour of the flood before the day the flood came or the day or hour of the destruction of Nineveh before the day it happened, so I don't believe that is a valid comparison. What we are told is that we can know when Christ's return is near, but not the exact day or hour. That is what Jesus taught in the Olivet Discourse.

divaD
Feb 29th 2008, 05:09 PM
Don't you guys who think we can know the exact day or hour know what you are promoting here? There is a reason why
God didn't want anyone to know the day or hour of Christ's return. If we knew the exact day or hour then it would be easy
for people to just say "okay, I'm going to do whatever I want in the meantime and once we get within a day or two of His
return, then I'll repent and get back to a close relationship with God"


I was going to post my thoughts, but after reading this, I believe your thought says it all. But I do have a question that comes to mind. What you just stated was from our perspective. But what about from Christ's, and the angels perspectives? Why did the Father not want them to know the day, or the hour?

the rookie
Feb 29th 2008, 05:09 PM
You have a point, but I still disagree. Nowhere does Scripture say that no one would know the day or hour of the flood before the day the flood came or the day or hour of the destruction of Nineveh before the day it happened, so I don't believe that is a valid comparison. What we are told is that we can know when Christ's return is near, but not the exact day or hour. That is what Jesus taught in the Olivet Discourse.

Specifically, though, doesn't Matt. 24:36 say "...but of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were..."

1. Jesus did not say that no one would ever, or could ever know. In that present tense context, no one knew. Presently, no one knows. But to automatically assume that no one will ever know seems to place a demand on the text that isn't there.

Granted, the reason that people do this is sound (date-setting gets weird) but again, the text does not say that no one will ever know the day or the hour.

2. In fact, it seems to be saying the exact opposite in the very next sentence, grammatically, in v. 37. Jesus tells the disciples that no one knows the information but the Father, but as the days of Noah were...

Then Jesus goes on to explain the reason that the wicked will never know (related to the same social and sinful dynamics of Noah's day), but Paul reminds the church later that the church will be privy to that information in 1 Thess. 5.

In other words, no one knows right now, and many in this world will be completely caught off guard because of their carnal minded carousing, but those who are like Noah in faithfulness will be connected to the Father in those days. One would assume that the closer we get, the clearer things get, IOW.

Does this logic permit us to set dates? Nope. But neither does it place a restriction on the Father's leadership that isn't there, IMO.

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 05:40 PM
I was going to post my thoughts, but after reading this, I believe your thought says it all. But I do have a question that comes to mind. What you just stated was from our perspective. But what about from Christ's, and the angels perspectives? Why did the Father not want them to know the day, or the hour?

I don't know. :D

heart hammer
Feb 29th 2008, 05:48 PM
What I say unto you, I say unto all 'Watch'

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 05:52 PM
Specifically, though, doesn't Matt. 24:36 say "...but of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were..."

1. Jesus did not say that no one would ever, or could ever know. In that present tense context, no one knew. Presently, no one knows. But to automatically assume that no one will ever know seems to place a demand on the text that isn't there.

I understand. But He did say that we could know when it was near, so I'm not sure that He really wanted anyone to ever know. He just wants us to know when it is near. That's my understanding of what He said, anyway. I think Clifton explained above (if I understood correctly) that it's not actually just written in present tense, even though the English makes it seem that way. Maybe he could chime in and explain a little more clearly the tense that is indicated in the Greek, which implies that no one would ever know, at least not before that day or hour. Let's do a little more research on this and see if we can determine whether Jesus was only saying people living then didn't know or whether He was saying no one would ever know.



Granted, the reason that people do this is sound (date-setting gets weird) but again, the text does not say that no one will ever know the day or the hour.Like I said, it appears that way in English, but I'm not sure that is how it was intended to be read.



2. In fact, it seems to be saying the exact opposite in the very next sentence, grammatically, in v. 37. Jesus tells the disciples that no one knows the information but the Father, but as the days of Noah were...Again, I understand. I admire your attention to detail! However, I do not believe that we should take Jesus' comparison to the days of Noah any further than He took it. Which means He compared it to the days of Noah as far as at that time "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" (Matt 24:38) and at that time "the flood came, and took them all away"(Matt 24:39). Then He said, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.". We shouldn't think that only 8 people will be saved when Christ comes, should we? The only thing we can say for sure is that unbelievers will be completely oblivious (despite being warned) to what's about to happen as they were in Noah's day and that all unbelievers will be "taken away" and killed, only this time by fire (2 Peter 3:5-7).



Then Jesus goes on to explain the reason that the wicked will never know (related to the same social and sinful dynamics of Noah's day), but Paul reminds the church later that the church will be privy to that information in 1 Thess. 5.

In other words, no one knows right now, and many in this world will be completely caught off guard because of their carnal minded carousing, but those who are like Noah in faithfulness will be connected to the Father in those days. One would assume that the closer we get, the clearer things get, IOW.

Does this logic permit us to set dates? Nope. But neither does it place a restriction on the Father's leadership that isn't there, IMO.Yeah, I basically agree. But I personally am going to stick with what Jesus said and assume that we can know when it is near (Matt 24:32), but not the exact day or hour (Matt 24:36). Of course, that raises the question of what He meant exactly by "near", but maybe we can save that for another thread.

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 06:11 PM
As for Jesus not knowing when He will come. This to me seems crazy. Of course Jesus must know exactly when He's coming. He is God is He not?

You are bringing human reasoning into this instead of just accepting what He said like you should. He is both man and God. As man, He does not know. As God, I would say He knows. As man, He only knew what God revealed to Him, which was pretty much almost everything except the day He would return.



The way we are understanding this verse must be in error.

Why? It's pretty straightforward. He said only the Father knows the day or hour. How many ways are there to interpret that direct statement?



Christ knows the end from the beginning. He's God. To say He doesn't know something is, to me, totally absurd.

You're not understanding or maybe forgetting that Jesus is both God and man. I guess you would find what Jesus said in the following verse to be absurd as well?

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. - John 5:30

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 06:24 PM
This is about the Day of the Lord, NOT the return of Jesus. This already happened and yes the believers were ready for the judgment that came down on Jerusalem and fled the city as Jesus warned them to do in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. I am not saying this passage means Jesus already had His Second coming because He didn't ...this isn't about that..its about the coming judgment which happened in 70AD in which Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

Read carefully!

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

This passage is about the Day of the Lord NOT the second coming of Christ.

Do you believe 1 Thess 4:13-18 is not about the second coming of Christ, either? 1 Thess 5 should be read as a continuation of the things Paul had just been saying in 1 Thess 4. He said in 1 Thess 5:1, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.". The times and seasons related to what? Of what he had just been speaking about, which was the coming of the Lord and our being caught up to meet Him in the air.

Who was 1st Thessalonians written to?

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess 1:1

Why would Paul have warned the Thessalonians about fleeing Judea and Jerusalem? That makes no sense. There is no mention of Jerusalem or Judea in 1st Thessalonians 5.

the rookie
Feb 29th 2008, 06:27 PM
I understand. But He did say that we could know when it was near, so I'm not sure that He really wanted anyone to ever know. He just wants us to know when it is near. That's my understanding of what He said, anyway. I think Clifton explained above (if I understood correctly) that it's not actually just written in present tense, even though the English makes it seem that way. Maybe he could chime in and explain a little more clearly the tense that is indicated in the Greek, which implies that no one would ever know, at least not before that day or hour. Let's do a little more research on this and see if we can determine whether Jesus was only saying people living then didn't know or whether He was saying no one would ever know.

Like I said, it appears that way in English, but I'm not sure that is how it was intended to be read.

Again, I understand. I admire your attention to detail! However, I do not believe that we should take Jesus' comparison to the days of Noah any further than He took it. Which means He compared it to the days of Noah as far as at that time "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" (Matt 24:38) and at that time "the flood came, and took them all away"(Matt 24:39). Then He said, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.". We shouldn't think that only 8 people will be saved when Christ comes, should we? The only thing we can say for sure is that unbelievers will be completely oblivious (despite being warned) to what's about to happen as they were in Noah's day and that all unbelievers will be "taken away" and killed, only this time by fire (2 Peter 3:5-7).

Yeah, I basically agree. But I personally am going to stick with what Jesus said and assume that we can know when it is near (Matt 24:32), but not the exact day or hour (Matt 24:36). Of course, that raises the question of what He meant exactly by "near", but maybe we can save that for another thread.

Good stuff Eric. I appreciate the last point in particular, and I'm in the "basically agree" camp as well. I would also be interested in Clifton's breakdown of the tense related to the passage (v. 36 & 37).

Theophilus
Feb 29th 2008, 06:43 PM
...Why did the Father not want them to know the day, or the hour?

My dad always said that perhaps something so wonderful as His (Jesus') return would be something that Jesus would've wanted to share with His disciples (and future disciples)...but it did not serve God the Father's purpose to do so. So, in the hierarchy of the Trinity with God the Father at the head, so to speak, this was knowledge reserved for the Father alone.

Just my two cents...I'm not trying to delve into Open Theism, or that Jesus was not fully God (because He was)...I'm just making an attempt to answer the question with my limited human understanding. :)

My heart's Desire
Feb 29th 2008, 06:52 PM
Good question! Why don't people want to know? In my answer I'm not thinking of anyone/denomination/view specific. Is it not possible that people may not want to know because:
It scarces some,
Some are of the darkness,
Some are too comfortable living in the here and now on earth,
Some are afraid of the unknown aspects of His coming,
Some may not be really sure of their eternal destiny,
On the other hand, some may kind of want to know and yet are afraid to know because so many aquiantances or family members are lost and we all want all the time we can get to see these saved. But we do see the time growing shorter and shorter.
Personally, I want to see Jesus and I love seeing the season as it appears to get closer and yet even I feel inside, we need more time!

Clifton
Feb 29th 2008, 06:55 PM
This is not correct. It is the Greek PERFECT TENSE, and is in the INDICATIVE MOOD (which makes the time element the "primary" force of the verb).
In my response to:


Mark 13:32 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew. I failed to mention that the Greek PERFECT TENSE is slightly different than the English PERFECT TENSE. Here is some info on that (Emphasis Mine):

Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17

Source:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm#TENSE

I would also note, that Christ’s verbal statement on the Cross, “IT IS FINISHED!” is in the Greek PERFECT Tense.

As for Mark 13:32 referenced here within, it appears to me “we will never know” ;)

Blessings.

ross3421
Feb 29th 2008, 06:58 PM
Personally I don't understand the fact it seems 99.9% of Christians don't think it's possible to know when Christ will return.

It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?

We can know up to the very day however the "day" he returns is a day whereby measured time does not exsist. Thus know one could possibly know the day nor the hour.........


Why does no one know the day nor the hour?

Most of us have been in the understanding that no one knows the day nor the hour due to that fact of God omnipotence and for that reason his feeble creation could not possible know the timing of Jesus's return. However, if you look at the verse we see that not even the angels will know the time for that matter NOT EVEN CHRIST HIMSELF! UM.....

How in the world could not even the the son of God not know the timing of his own return?

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Alright, let start by looking at the events prior to Christ's return. Well we see some dramatic changes to this world. We see that just prior to Christ's return the sun is blackened, moon becomes as blood, and the stars fall from heaven and even heaven departing.

Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Now we know that Christ not only comes as a "thief" to kill in destroy but that he comes as a "thief in the night" ! A literal night.

2pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Ac 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Ac 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Now for the answer........

How do we tell time? the sun, the moon, the stars. But what happens to these prior to Christ's return? lights out.

No one could possible know the day nor the hour because Christ will return when there will be no day no hour.

It is not that we won't know the time (i.e Kairos) of what is about to happen and that the time is at hand, we just won't know the time which can be measured (i.e. Chronos or Hora) for the things which this could be measured are vanished away.


In Christ, Mark

My heart's Desire
Feb 29th 2008, 07:16 PM
Awww man. I was just going to bring up the exact same statement lol. Why does it seem everyone's so afraid to know?
hehe, beat ya to it~ :) well, I was afraid to comment on the rest b/c I'm not real sure where that date setting limit is. To me it means don't say ("Jesus comes back on such and such date) but I guess it means don't say anything remotely sounding like it! :) But that's ok, because I'd be really worried about someone who thought they knew He returns on such and such date, but I do think the Father gives the children of light clues on the closeness thereof.
I'm thinking of the light too. Would a child of the Light not see the darkness closing in around them more and more as the day approaches? One would think so.
I wanted to add that there is one of the end time views that if one subscribed to that view then in a way, the people on earth at that time would know even more so the closeness of His appearing, but I still don't think they'd know the exact time.

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 07:17 PM
Do you believe 1 Thess 4:13-18 is not about the second coming of Christ, either? 1 Thess 5 should be read as a continuation of the things Paul had just been saying in 1 Thess 4. He said in 1 Thess 5:1, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.". The times and seasons related to what? Of what he had just been speaking about, which was the coming of the Lord and our being caught up to meet Him in the air.

Who was 1st Thessalonians written to?

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess 1:1

Why would Paul have warned the Thessalonians about fleeing Judea and Jerusalem? That makes no sense. There is no mention of Jerusalem or Judea in 1st Thessalonians 5.

Right now I am really pressed for time...sorry...later I will try to get back on here with more detailed information. First the believers did travel back and forth from all over to Jerusalem and this was part of Jesus' teachings...for Paul to say, well this doesn't apply to you because you are in the wrong area so I will leave it out, would be a grave error. The Thessalonians were being heavily persecution by Romans for their faith...everything was in a terrible uproar during this time...'nations rising against nation's earthquakes, a terrible volcanoe going off...all kinds of 'signs from heaven'...everything Jesus had warned them all about was going on. There was a war even going on between the upper and lower parts of Jerusalem..one side taking Roman's side the other rebelling against Rome. The believers were being persecuted by the Jewish leaders also. It seemed no matter where they went they were in trouble. Paul wrote to them to try to encourage them through these difficult times and comfort them of course. It was just Jerusalem that was affected by the wrath of God either. It would take me a long time to gather up all the material I needed to show how widespread this all was...but Adam Clark includes quite a bit in his commentary on Matthew 24 here: http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024

the 'whole world' back then which was quite a bit smaller then it is today, was indeed affected. It was a terrible horrible time to live in.

Anyway I am sorry that is all I have time for right now.

God bless

Clifton
Feb 29th 2008, 07:18 PM
Good stuff Eric. I appreciate the last point in particular, and I'm in the "basically agree" camp as well. I would also be interested in Clifton's breakdown of the tense related to the passage (v. 36 & 37).

Assuming those verses are of Matthew 24 ;)...

Like Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Matthew&chapter=24&verse=36), “knoweth” is also in the Greek Perfect Tense and in the Indicative Mood. Generally, the primary part of a Greek Verb is “the action of the verb” (the German word 'aktionsart' is normally used for this description) first, then (secondly) the time element next. The exception is when the Greek Verb is in the Indicative Mood. The time element takes the position of being the primary importance, then secondly, the “action of the verb”.

As for Matthew 24:37 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Matthew&chapter=24&verse=37), the Greek word underlying the English word “coming” in many translation is not a verb, but it is the Greek Noun PAROUSIA;

"But just as in the days of Noah, in this way also will be the Arrival of the Son of Humanity…” (ALT)

So here we have to look at the tense of “will be”. It is in the Future Tense and in the Indicative Mood.

Hope this helps :)

Blessings.

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 08:08 PM
I don’t think I am bringing human reasoning in this. I think it’s very biblical reasoning. Jesus is God. I wouldn’t say that He is both God AND man. I would say He is God AS man.
What does that mean exactly, "He is God as man"? Jesus has always existed and has always been God. He is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. He created all things. Before He became a man, He was God. He did not stop being God once He became a man. He was then both God and man. It's not right to say He was God as man. God is not a man. Remember, Jesus died. If He was only God or God as man, how could that have happened?! God can't die. But man can. As a man, He died. As God, He was alive the whole time. He rose again as a man, of course and He was also still God.



Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

It says all the fullness of the Godhead. It doesn’t say everything but the knowledge of His return. ALL. That includes knowledge of His return. So our human reasoning on the verse must be in error. You know as well as I that many verses that seem straight forward are in reality easily misunderstood. I believe this is one of those.What is there to be misunderstood about Jesus's statement that no one knows the day or hour but His Father? How many ways can that statement be interpreted? So, it must be that you actually think the verse is mistranslated. Yet, you have no problem quoting Colossians 2:9 from the same Bible version that you think contains erroneous translations of some verses. How should Matthew 24:36 read? Where was it mistranslated? Why can't Col 2:9 and Matthew 24:36 both be literally true? I don't see any symbolic language in either verse.

How about this verse:

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. - John 5:30

Is this mistranslated? Once again, it would be hard to misunderstand what this is saying. It seems like you would say that Jesus could do everything of His own self and that He did not have to seek the will of the Father because His will was the will of the Father. But that's clearly not what it says. I believe we have to differentiate between Jesus as the Son of Man and Jesus as the Son of God, but I guess you don't agree.

Is the following passage also in error?

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18

Can God be tempted? No. Yet, Jesus was God and He was tempted. How to explain this? He was also man. He was tempted in His humanity. And He overcame the world so that you and I and whosoever believes in Him can also overcome the world.

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 08:12 PM
Right now I am really pressed for time...sorry...later I will try to get back on here with more detailed information. First the believers did travel back and forth from all over to Jerusalem and this was part of Jesus' teachings...for Paul to say, well this doesn't apply to you because you are in the wrong area so I will leave it out, would be a grave error. The Thessalonians were being heavily persecution by Romans for their faith...everything was in a terrible uproar during this time...'nations rising against nation's earthquakes, a terrible volcanoe going off...all kinds of 'signs from heaven'...everything Jesus had warned them all about was going on. There was a war even going on between the upper and lower parts of Jerusalem..one side taking Roman's side the other rebelling against Rome. The believers were being persecuted by the Jewish leaders also. It seemed no matter where they went they were in trouble. Paul wrote to them to try to encourage them through these difficult times and comfort them of course. It was just Jerusalem that was affected by the wrath of God either. It would take me a long time to gather up all the material I needed to show how widespread this all was...but Adam Clark includes quite a bit in his commentary on Matthew 24 here: http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024

the 'whole world' back then which was quite a bit smaller then it is today, was indeed affected. It was a terrible horrible time to live in.

Anyway I am sorry that is all I have time for right now.

God bless

None of that explains why Paul would be warning the Thessalonians about something that was going to happen IN JERUSALEM. So, I don't buy the preterist explanation of that passage.

Also, maybe when you get time you can answer my question regarding whether you think 1 Thess 4:13-18 is fulfilled and also comment on my claim that 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 is supposed to be read as one continuous passage relating to the second coming of Christ.

John146
Feb 29th 2008, 08:14 PM
Awww man. I was just going to bring up the exact same statement lol. Why does it seem everyone's so afraid to know?

I'm not afraid to know at all. It would be exciting to know. But I do not see that Jesus said anyone would ever know. He and Paul both said we should be watching and should be alert to the times and seasons we are living in. There would be no need to do that if we knew the exact day or hour He was coming.

the rookie
Feb 29th 2008, 08:39 PM
Assuming those verses are of Matthew 24 ;)...

Like Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Matthew&chapter=24&verse=36), “knoweth” is also in the Greek Perfect Tense and in the Indicative Mood. Generally, the primary part of a Greek Verb is “the action of the verb” (the German word 'aktionsart' is normally used for this description) first, then (secondly) the time element next. The exception is when the Greek Verb is in the Indicative Mood. The time element takes the position of being the primary importance, then secondly, the “action of the verb”.

As for Matthew 24:37 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Matthew&chapter=24&verse=37), the Greek word underlying the English word “coming” in many translation is not a verb, but it is the Greek Noun PAROUSIA;

"But just as in the days of Noah, in this way also will be the Arrival of the Son of Humanity…” (ALT)

So here we have to look at the tense of “will be”. It is in the Future Tense and in the Indicative Mood.

Hope this helps :)

Blessings.

It helps a bit - thanks Clifton!

I was thinking more in terms of the idea that one can never know the day or hour versus that information being presently concealed with no restriction on future revelation.

To juxtapose that statement with "but just as in the days of Noah, in this way also will be the parousia..." lends itself to asking whether all of the conditions of the days of Noah will be in view - the context of sin, judgment, and mercy related to the pattern of preparation and warning prior to the great judgment.

White Spider
Feb 29th 2008, 09:32 PM
I did not read all the posts since there are 5 pages since my original post. I did read most and will try to answer the most repetitive questions.

What day is it? Well the board will not allow date setting and I do not claim to know the moment Christ will return. I think it is possible to know though.

Matthew 24:37 -> As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. (NIV)

Genesis 7:4 - For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made. (NIV)

It's most likely we won't know the exact day until 7 days prior, but as Noah knew long before to prepare the ark we will know long before also.

My first thread was too date setting for the board, unfortunately. It was misunderstood in my opinion what I meant with the dates. I will not use the dates here, but I will let you know what I think of when Christ may return.

I'm sure you can all guess the date. I do not believe it the end. Though you may all find it fascinating that everything that is likely to happen that day and surrounding that time sounds amazingly like what the Bible tells us to watch for as to know the time is near.

Also there are just odd coincidences, or perhaps they're not coincidence. Such as 2013 is the year of the snake.

There is supposedly to be a single currency among the world in the end of days and the U.S. is in an economic "repression" and some of New York is accepting the Euro. If our economy collapses it is likely the Euro will be the adopted currency, and with Europe and the U.S. using one currency the rest of the world is likely to follow. (Now I personally have not read where that is suggested in the Bible so if anyone knows the chapter or book I can read that in I'd appreciate that.)

Now some people worry about the END and the way we deal with it.

I am not one who believes in changing my entire life to be somewhere special on the expected day for I have no knowledge of the exact day. I do not believe in spreading the word of God on the basis the day is coming. Scaring people to belief is not making them true believers anyway and will likely turn them away from God forever if the day does not come when suggested. I simply believe that as true believers we should 'WATCH' and we can know.

Hope that answers most peoples questions.

EDIT: Just want to emphasize to the board I am not setting any dates. The dates that are hinted at are not return dates for Christ. They are what, if they happen as expected, will be clues the time is near.

HisLeast
Feb 29th 2008, 10:08 PM
Also there are just odd coincidences, or perhaps they're not coincidence. Such as 2013 is the year of the snake.

Here's the thing WhiteSpider, and its the same thing I was trying to express in your last thread.

Why would the year of the snake mean anything to eschatology? There's no connection in Revelation between the year and an animal, and I doubt Revelation's author would have had access to a CHINESE calendar. On top of that, the year of the snake is every 12 years.. which means there's been 166 of them since Jesus birth. The only reason this is even being discussed is due to the "serpent" mentioned in the bible... but its connection to time, the year, or calendars at all is NON EXISTENT.

Its a coincidental connection to a biblical SYMBOL. With such a strategy for understanding the end times, I could give you a good case as to why Christ's return is tomorrow, yesterday, or pricesly June 24th 2007 at 5:50pm. All I have to do is find enough coincidental details with even vaguely similar symbols.

For non-Preterists, the coming of the Lord has been "soon" for just shy of 2000 years. Let us watch, but most importantly, let us PREPARE (live righteously).

White Spider
Feb 29th 2008, 10:47 PM
Here's the thing WhiteSpider, and its the same thing I was trying to express in your last thread.

. . . All I have to do is find enough coincidental details with even vaguely similar symbols.

I can see it both ways. A coincidence, and it there for a reason. God created the world and is all knowing and can intervene whenever He wishes. Is it so hard to think that He may have planned that year to be the year of the snake?

And while we're off topic I'll mention something to those who don't believe in astronomical clues, and messages from the stars.

God made the stars for a reason, they are more than just pretty things to look at at night. Everything has a purpose, perhaps the stars are there to tell us something . . .

Most christian's believe in Christ and God, but then laugh at his work, I don't understand it.

Anyways that is off topic. This thread was to understand why people turn a blind eye and want His return to be a surprise.

moonglow
Feb 29th 2008, 11:34 PM
Isn't the day of the lord the day that Jesus returns, as there is only one coming of Christ, according to his promise?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Cor 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is one event.

Firstfruits...I am really sorry for the long delay here in answering your question. Its been one of those days where I had it all planned out...get my errands run and get home and have time to focus on this and other things...but things didn't go as I planned. My attention was not all here like it needed to be so I decided to wait until I got my things done and could focus! I hated having things hanging over my head like that...so now they are done and I can relax and answer your post.

All I can do is try to answer your questions as best as I can..and of course its totally up to you what you do with those answers and I won't say I know it all by any means anyway.

Again this is prophetic language and shouldn't be taken in the literal way here as mark posted there are plenty of other verses in the OT using the same type of language. Notice the words I put in blue and how similar they sound to those that read about the end times passages in the NT..

Isaiah 13:13

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the LORD of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

Isaiah 34:4

4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

Isaiah 51:15-16

15 But I am the LORD your God,
Who divided the sea whose waves roared—
The LORD of hosts is His name.
16 And I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
That I may plant the heavens,
Lay the foundations of the earth,
And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”

Isaiah 65:17

The Glorious New Creation
17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
(this was about the deliverance from the Babylonish captivity.)

Jeremiah 4:23-31

23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the LORD,
By His fierce anger.

27 For thus says the LORD:


“ The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn,
And the heavens above be black,
Because I have spoken.
I have purposed and will not relent,
Nor will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee from the noise of the horsemen and bowmen.
They shall go into thickets and climb up on the rocks.
Every city shall be forsaken,
And not a man shall dwell in it.
30 “ And when you are plundered,
What will you do?
Though you clothe yourself with crimson,
Though you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold,
Though you enlarge your eyes with paint,
In vain you will make yourself fair;
Your lovers will despise you;
They will seek your life.
31 “ For I have heard a voice as of a woman in labor,
The anguish as of her who brings forth her first child,
The voice of the daughter of Zion bewailing herself;
She spreads her hands, saying,

‘ Woe is me now, for my soul is weary
Because of murderers!’

Hebrews 12:26

26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”

These prophesies took place already...was the earth burned up or a new heaven and earth put here?

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T4212)
The formal conception of new heavens and a new earth occurs in Isaiah 65:17; 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1 (where "heaven," singular). The idea in substance is also found in Isaiah 51:16; Matthew 19:28; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Hebrews 12:26-28. In each case the reference is eschatological, indeed the adjective "new" seems to have acquired in this and other connections a semi-technical eschatological sense. It must be remembered that the Old Testament has no single word for "universe," and that the phrase "heaven and earth" serves to supply the deficiency. The promise of a new heavens and a new earth is therefore equivalent to a promise of world renewal.

"The promise of a new heavens and a new earth is therefore equivalent to a promise of world renewal"...which is what happened when Jerusalem was destroyed and a new system put in place...the old done away with (the old Jewish laws) and the new in Christ put into place... were fulfilled in the apostolic age by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, the event that brought a final end to the structures and orders of the Old Creation or Old Covenant.” (http://davidpfield.blogspot.com/2006/12/promise-of-his-appearing.html)

I can't say I much like this all either...having grown up with the idea these things would literally happen...that this earth would literally be destroyed and a new perfect one put in its place...a new earth, a new Heaven, but I can't ignore all those verses in the OT that are so similar but having to do with events in the past..of Israel being freed from captivity, etc.

God bless

jeffweeder
Mar 1st 2008, 12:08 AM
It's most likely we won't know the exact day until 7 days prior, but as Noah knew long before to prepare the ark we will know long before also.

Noah didnt know how long it would take him to build the ark, so he couldnt have known.
Like its reliant that we preach the gospel to the whole world, this may take longer than it should.
Their is that scripture that says that we can speed its coming.....

There is certain hidden manna kept hidden, like with Christ and how he would achieve victory. If the enemy knew exactly ,he wouldnt have crucified the lord of glory.....If the enemy knew the time, he could undermine the word of God..
So we will never know exactly i think.

moonglow
Mar 1st 2008, 12:09 AM
Do you believe 1 Thess 4:13-18 is not about the second coming of Christ, either? 1 Thess 5 should be read as a continuation of the things Paul had just been saying in 1 Thess 4. He said in 1 Thess 5:1, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.". The times and seasons related to what? Of what he had just been speaking about, which was the coming of the Lord and our being caught up to meet Him in the air.

Who was 1st Thessalonians written to?

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess 1:1

Why would Paul have warned the Thessalonians about fleeing Judea and Jerusalem? That makes no sense. There is no mention of Jerusalem or Judea in 1st Thessalonians 5.

Ok lets back up a bit here...this is what I posted in reference to 1 Thessalonians 5


This is about the Day of the Lord, NOT the return of Jesus. This already happened and yes the believers were ready for the judgment that came down on Jerusalem and fled the city as Jesus warned them to do in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. I am not saying this passage means Jesus already had His Second coming because He didn't ...this isn't about that..its about the coming judgment which happened in 70AD in which Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

Read carefully!

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

This passage is about the Day of the Lord NOT the second coming of Christ.

From Adam Clark bible commentary:
This figure is perfectly consistent with what the apostle had said before, viz.: that the times and seasons were not known: though the thing itself was expected, our Lord having predicted it in the most positive manner. So, a woman with child knows that, if she be spared, she will have a bearing time; but the week, the day, the hour, she cannot tell. In a great majority of cases the time is accelerated or retarded much before or beyond the time that the woman expected; so, with respect to the Jews, neither the day, week, month, nor year was known. All that was specifically known was this: their destruction was coming, and it should be sudden, and they should not escape.

Luke 21

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

History shows the believers, heeding the Words of Christ, were watchful and on alert. They were watching for armies to surround the city...and when they saw it, they didn't go back for anything as Jesus said not too and fled the city and were spared the wrath of God as promised. Not one believers died in the siege.

God bless

1 Thess 4 is about the resurrection...the Second Coming of Christ. I see the difference. They would know the difference since the OT is scattered with verses on the Day of the Lord along with the NT. I didn't say that Paul warned them to flee Judea...(though he probably did simply because as I said, they were constantly traveling back and forth), the passage being discussed, the one we know he said to them was the 1 Thess 5...right? Do you really think this teaching was just for the Thessalonians alone? If you really think that, then why do we apply it to all believers? Why do we read it now if its only for them?

You say why warn them to flee Judea...ok...then let me ask you why is that ignored now by so many? I don't live in Judea yet many believe Matthew 24 is for us...for a future event. Does this apply to only those that live in Judea or not?


None of that explains why Paul would be warning the Thessalonians about something that was going to happen IN JERUSALEM. So, I don't buy the preterist explanation of that passage.


If you read the historical records...history and read how they were constantly traveling back and forth, it would make sense. How many of the Thessalonian had Jewish relatives that wanted them back home for feasts and holidays? People were always traveling to Jerusalem for many reasons then. Look at how many places Jesus went in His short ministry...and how much just Paul traveled. Compared to many of the disciples Jesus didn't really cover a huge area either.


Also, maybe when you get time you can answer my question regarding whether you think 1 Thess 4:13-18 is fulfilled and also comment on my claim that 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 is supposed to be read as one continuous passage relating to the second coming of Christ.

Having one passage in the bible such as reading chapter four then five, of course a person reads one then what comes next...it doesn't always mean its about the same subject though or suppose to be seen as one event happening at the same time OR one happening on the heels of the other. There are many examples in the bible where just plain reading makes it appear things happened very quickly where actually a huge amount of time had past.

Sorry its taken me so long to reply...been one of those days. :cool:

You don't have to agree...that is fine...my under cover plan ;) is NOT to convince anyone my view is right...I am sick to death of that kind of thing. So my under cover plan, which is no longer top secret...:rolleyes:... is only to post what I understand and answer questions and folks can take it or leave it...doesn't matter to me how you view the time ends. :)

I just enjoy sharing back and forth is all...

God bless

White Spider
Mar 1st 2008, 12:41 AM
Noah didnt know how long it would take him to build the ark, so he couldnt have known.
Like its reliant that we preach the gospel to the whole world, this may take longer than it should.
Their is that scripture that says that we can speed its coming.....

There is certain hidden manna kept hidden, like with Christ and how he would achieve victory. If the enemy knew exactly ,he wouldnt have crucified the lord of glory.....If the enemy knew the time, he could undermine the word of God..
So we will never know exactly i think.

That's quite possible and logical . . .

Though Lucifer believes he is as powerful as God, which is why he left in the first place, so Lucifer will most likely want Jesus to return so he can defeat Christ, which we know won't happen, but Lucifer will probably use what's happening to build up his armies to fight. He knows proclaiming himself Christ returned he will be able to deceive a lot of people and gather the most people. Lucifer really has no choice but to do what is said even if he knows what's going to happen. His arrogance is in the way if you ask me and will make sure he does what he's suppose to :lol: :D :bounce: :spin:

Clifton
Mar 1st 2008, 02:19 AM
It helps a bit - thanks Clifton!

I was thinking more in terms of the idea that one can never know the day or hour versus that information being presently concealed with no restriction on future revelation.

That’s a great question considering that Noah (as well as Lot, etc.) had been put on notice, and anyway could have gone with them if they believed them.

BTW, I noticed in that Luke (EMPHASIS MINE)

“ And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so will it be also in the days of the Son of Humanity:” (Luke 17:26 ALT)

Besides the word “days” (plural), “Parousia” is not referenced here (or anywhere else in Luke). Besides the comparison of Noah, the days of Lot / Sodom – only the righteous were warned, so they, Lot, Abraham, etc. were put on notice too. Though their revelation was quick - It was too late for Sodom, though I assume they warned the sodomites and offered them to come along – I know Lot’s wife did (unfortunately she looked back…).


To juxtapose that statement with "but just as in the days of Noah, in this way also will be the parousia..." lends itself to asking whether all of the conditions of the days of Noah will be in view - the context of sin, judgment, and mercy related to the pattern of preparation and warning prior to the great judgment. I would think so. Jesus appears to refer to those days before the Parousia will when many will be too busy with everyday matters of life just as it was in Noah’s day before the Flood.

I think that Luke 17 would be the best for our eschatology issues… It has been well known that Matthew 24 has things bundled up (things “to happen” back then, later in that Century, and times of the rest of the days and last days – if not more) – Consider bundling up Luke 17 & 21 (at least) together to draw a picture ;)

There are at least 3 blocks in Matthew 24… Here’s what I mean by “blocks”

24:1-25 (verses mildly disordered) – I’ll call this Block 1-A. Verse 12 unattested, omit.

24:26-28 belongs a FEW chapters earlier – I’ll call this Block 2. (Verse Order okay).

24:29-35 (verse order okay) – I’ll call this Block 1-B because I think it picks up where v.25 left off.

24:36 which we referenced in this discussion: Unattested and Context uncertain, omit. But appears in Mark as attested and context certain.

24:37-41 (verse order okay) – belongs SEVERAL chapters earlier. I’ll call this Block 3-B (not A - that’s next)

24:42 Unattested.

24:43-50 (verse order okay) – belongs SEVERAL chapters earlier, preceding right before Block 3-B. I’ll call this Block 3-A.

24:51 Unattested.

A good commentary will sort this out for users. At least, we get the vitals and basics in the Gospels concerning why Christ came, what He has done for us, and to live through Him – that is usually agreed upon ;)

So, I think a good dependency for eschatology is Luke 17. As for Mark 13, perhaps that as well - I don’t remember about any divisions in it except what relates to Luke 17 – I’ll refresh my memory on that hopefully soon.

Now that I got all that out, well, perhaps some of us can see that Matthew 24 contains segments of different seasons, times and ages, causing some confusion with some, and I can go get me a peanut butter sandwich now (so happy that Peter Pan is back on the Market, PRAISE THE LORD!) …:D

2Witnesses
Mar 1st 2008, 03:43 AM
Yes,

We by all means can know the 'times and the seasons' of His return. We just do not know the 'hour', the exact timing. But it is foolish as a virgin without oil to deny we can know the timing of His return.

This message board discourages such discussions. I post a thread I called,' Psalm 119: Timeframe for the End of Days', and they took it off. But if you are interested in reading it, I can arrange that.

2Witnesses

Firstfruits
Mar 1st 2008, 10:53 AM
According to the following Jesus returns after God has pored out "the wine of his wrath" on the beast and those that worship the beast, when the beast kingdom is destroyed.

Rev 14:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

With all that in mind, it also means that Revelation 13 will be a reality before Christ returns. The world will worship the beast and the dragon, and the mark of the beast and his image will be fulfilled before Jesus returns. One more thing the saints will be martyred during that time.

Duane Morse
Mar 1st 2008, 11:17 AM
I love it when the OP has so little (usable) input.

EarlyCall
Mar 1st 2008, 01:23 PM
Personally I don't understand the fact it seems 99.9% of Christians don't think it's possible to know when Christ will return.

Mark 13:32 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows is present tense, at that time no one knew.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

(CEV puts it more clearly) 1 Thessalonians 5:4 - My dear friends, you don't live in darkness, and so that day won't surprise you like a thief.

Revelation 3:3 - Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

. . . if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief . . . only if we do not wake up, open our eyes, pay attention to what we've been told will He come as a thief.

It is entirely possible to know when He will come. My question is why everyone doesn't want to know?


I am confident we can all agree that the matter of Christ's return is of great importance. I think we ought to and likely can all agree that Jesus treated it as such. And I think too we are likely to all agree that Jesus spoke with great clarity concerning the matter. He said to be watchful. He said we could recognize the time was at hand and how we could do so by telling us what to watch for. He also said to look up for our redemption would be coming.

Jesus, with great clarity as due the matter, said no one but God alone knew the day and hour.

I'll give an example here to make a point before proceeding with further thoughts.

Which of us would be satisfied if a bridge crossing a body of water was out, literally out, and it was a dark and foggy night, and the state transportation department put up a sign that said, "Proceed with caution"? And which of us would expect instead a sign be put up that read, "Bridge out! Do not proceed further!"? In fact, we would also expect a barricade of some sort. And rightly so.

Now it should be noted the great importance of such a dangerous situation and the expectation that great clarity be given it. Someone would likely die if a sign with exact clarity was not put up and a barricade was not put up. We expect the matter to be treated with the importance due it and the clarity due it.

And so we have Jesus doing exactly that with the matter of His return. He also said with great clarity that no one but God alone knew the day and hour. Jesus did not say this in general terms. He did not say that we would not know the times nor the season nor anything else but the day and hour alone we would not know. That is specific.

Likewise, when the bridge is finally repaired, we expect the sign to be taken down. It may be that another sign is put up temporarily that says the bridge is repaired and you may proceed. We expect the barricade to be taken away. What we do not expect is a sign that says something that does not clearly tell us the bridge is repaired and we may go on our way. Nor do we expect the sign and barricade removed before the bridge is repaired and it is safe to proceed.

The point here is this: We expect great clarity with such an important matter. And rightly so and Jesus did treat it in that maner.

Therefore, should we not also expect then that equal clarity be given if later we are told that we would know the day and hour? Such scripture as has been given in this thread by those making such a claim does not in fact say that we will know the day and hour. I've read the scripture given and it says no such thing.

Let's be at the least honest here and admit that it says no such thing. What you and some are saying is that it means that. That is different from it actually saying it.

Where is equal clarity then? It is not found.

Logic and reason, it seems to me demands equal clairty. That of course is also a matter of opinion, but so is claiming the scripture given tells us we will know the day and hour.


This same type of mistake is made by many concerning the death penalty (not to try and bring that into the mix but rather use it as an example). God minced no words, spoke in no general terms, and was not less than absolutely clear when He spoke of the death penalty for certain crimes and sins in the OT. And yet some claim He did away with it in the NT. But where is the clarity to that effect? It cannot be found. What can be found are verses that do not say the death penalty has been done away with, but some claim such verses mean so.

Again here too one ought to expect a matter of such great importance, and treated by God as such and with great clarity to be treated with equal clarity when doing away with it. But that is quite simply not the case.

When God says a thing and does so in absolute terms, if He modifies it later or does away with it later, why is it we think He would do so with any less exactness than with which He began it?

No, until I see scripture that says we can know the "day" and the "hour", scripture that uses those words as Jesus used them, I will hold to what Jesus said rather than assume He was only talking to those in His presence or even to those that were alive at the time. Going beyond that is assumption and mere opinion. But neither of those make gospel.

the rookie
Mar 1st 2008, 03:17 PM
That’s a great question considering that Noah (as well as Lot, etc.) had been put on notice, and anyway could have gone with them if they believed them.

BTW, I noticed in that Luke (EMPHASIS MINE)

“ And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so will it be also in the days of the Son of Humanity:” (Luke 17:26 ALT)

Besides the word “days” (plural), “Parousia” is not referenced here (or anywhere else in Luke). Besides the comparison of Noah, the days of Lot / Sodom – only the righteous were warned, so they, Lot, Abraham, etc. were put on notice too. Though their revelation was quick - It was too late for Sodom, though I assume they warned the sodomites and offered them to come along – I know Lot’s wife did (unfortunately she looked back…).

I would think so. Jesus appears to refer to those days before the Parousia will when many will be too busy with everyday matters of life just as it was in Noah’s day before the Flood.

I think that Luke 17 would be the best for our eschatology issues… It has been well known that Matthew 24 has things bundled up (things “to happen” back then, later in that Century, and times of the rest of the days and last days – if not more) – Consider bundling up Luke 17 & 21 (at least) together to draw a picture ;)

There are at least 3 blocks in Matthew 24… Here’s what I mean by “blocks”

24:1-25 (verses mildly disordered) – I’ll call this Block 1-A. Verse 12 unattested, omit.

24:26-28 belongs a FEW chapters earlier – I’ll call this Block 2. (Verse Order okay).

24:29-35 (verse order okay) – I’ll call this Block 1-B because I think it picks up where v.25 left off.

24:36 which we referenced in this discussion: Unattested and Context uncertain, omit. But appears in Mark as attested and context certain.

24:37-41 (verse order okay) – belongs SEVERAL chapters earlier. I’ll call this Block 3-B (not A - that’s next)

24:42 Unattested.

24:43-50 (verse order okay) – belongs SEVERAL chapters earlier, preceding right before Block 3-B. I’ll call this Block 3-A.

24:51 Unattested.

A good commentary will sort this out for users. At least, we get the vitals and basics in the Gospels concerning why Christ came, what He has done for us, and to live through Him – that is usually agreed upon ;)

So, I think a good dependency for eschatology is Luke 17. As for Mark 13, perhaps that as well - I don’t remember about any divisions in it except what relates to Luke 17 – I’ll refresh my memory on that hopefully soon.

Now that I got all that out, well, perhaps some of us can see that Matthew 24 contains segments of different seasons, times and ages, causing some confusion with some, and I can go get me a peanut butter sandwich now (so happy that Peter Pan is back on the Market, PRAISE THE LORD!) …:D

Thanks much, Clifton - super helpful and clear.

White Spider
Mar 1st 2008, 04:18 PM
. . . Such scripture as has been given in this thread by those making such a claim does not in fact say that we will know the day and hour. I've read the scripture given and it says no such thing.

Let's be at the least honest here and admit that it says no such thing. What you and some are saying is that it means that. That is different from it actually saying it.

No, until I see scripture that says we can know the "day" and the "hour", scripture that uses those words as Jesus used them, I will hold to what Jesus said rather than assume He was only talking to those in His presence or even to those that were alive at the time. Going beyond that is assumption and mere opinion. But neither of those make gospel.

It seems you mistook my OP and the last statement which I said, "It is entirely possible to know when He will come." I said this deliberately and it in know way indicates knowing exactly when. As telling people to arrive at a party at say 5:00 pm, I know when they will come, but as with Christ I know not the exact moment.

My problem, and perhaps I did not make it quite so clear, is that on average when I talk to christian's and ask them when they think Christ will return they instantly reply that He will return like a thief in the night and we will not know the hour for only God knows.

It seems most people on this board that frequent End Times Chat are more reasonable and understanding of what Christ has said. Unfortunately I feel I have missed communicating with the people that feel we will can not know.

White Spider
Mar 1st 2008, 04:26 PM
So, I think a good dependency for eschatology is Luke 17. As for Mark 13, perhaps that as well - I don’t remember about any divisions in it except what relates to Luke 17 – I’ll refresh my memory on that hopefully soon.

I shortened your post to reply to it . . . You were saying Matthew is confusing in it's referencing many time periods and bounces around with what it's talking about.

Just wanted to note that in my OP that I do not refer to Matthew and I don't believe I have at all in this thread ;)

Clifton
Mar 1st 2008, 04:49 PM
I shortened your post to reply to it . . . You were saying Matthew is confusing in it's referencing many time periods and bounces around with what it's talking about.

Just wanted to note that in my OP that I do not refer to Matthew and I don't believe I have at all in this thread ;)

Yes, I realize that. Due to the nature of the OP (in which you refer to Mark 13:32) and other scriptures of Christ's Return, some of us were referring to other parallels to your references, such as Matthew, and were trying to sort out what parts of it are applicable to your OP and what some signs might be (such like that in the days of Noah).;)

Some arguments on your side include, when a woman gets pregnant, she knows it is about 9 months before she gives birth, and as time goes on she knows the time is getting closer, but she does not know the day or hour of the birth until it is upon her.;)

BTW, I have a reconstruction of Matthew, and as for Chapter 24, and some of its sources for the reconstruction include parts of Mark 13, as well as from within the standard Matthew itself, 10:17-22. I think one of the ideas behind reconstructing Matthew was to make it parallel and align up better with Luke and Mark.:cool:

Blessings.

EarlyCall
Mar 2nd 2008, 01:25 AM
It seems you mistook my OP and the last statement which I said, "It is entirely possible to know when He will come." I said this deliberately and it in know way indicates knowing exactly when. As telling people to arrive at a party at say 5:00 pm, I know when they will come, but as with Christ I know not the exact moment.

My problem, and perhaps I did not make it quite so clear, is that on average when I talk to christian's and ask them when they think Christ will return they instantly reply that He will return like a thief in the night and we will not know the hour for only God knows.

It seems most people on this board that frequent End Times Chat are more reasonable and understanding of what Christ has said. Unfortunately I feel I have missed communicating with the people that feel we will can not know.


So basically I wrote all that I wrote on misunderstanding you? Well shoot, I could have misunderstood with far fewer words! :B:)

I'm still not sure what exactly you are saying. The way I see it, we either know exactly or we know less than that, and if less, well, then it becomes a matter of degree.

And in this particular, the point Christ was surely making is we cannot know exactly when, but He was just as surely saying we can know when the time is near, so near in fact that it is then that we look up expecting His return - our redemption.

That would be my understanding anyway. Is that your understanding then as well?

I don't usually consider myself to be slow although sometims I certainly am. Regardless, I apologize for the long post based on my misunderstanding. It would have served a better purpose had I not misunderstood. :)

EarlyCall
Mar 2nd 2008, 11:41 AM
Yes that is my understanding as well. I believe we can know when it is near.

And I believe the closer it gets the more accurate we can be with it's nearness.

This a link to a page I am suppose to describe before sending anyone there, but the board won't let me describe it either so I'll tell you what I can.

It's an interpretation of Revelation 17 and it's a long read so give yourself time, maybe 30 minutes if your a slower reader like me.



Ah, I'm glad we came to an understanding. We are in agreement then. But even if we disagreed, an understanding of what the other is saying is always good.

Thank you for your patience and clarification. :)

Royalchild
Mar 2nd 2008, 07:22 PM
Is not the Lord the same yesterday, today, and forever? Yes. Did He not give Noah the specific date when He would bring the flood? Yes. Did He not give Jonah the specific date he intended to destroy Ninevah? Yes. Why would He be any different today? He won’t be.But God's word does not go out and come back void & He cannot tell a lie. How could we know the date and hour when the Son of Man don't even know the time and date of his own coming. Only the Father knows. Matthew 25:36 also says tells us; But of that day and hour knoweth NO man, no not the angels of heaven, but my father only. If you go back in the Matthew 24: up to verse 8; it says that when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, kingdoms rising against kingdoms, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places to know that these are the beginning of sorrows. In the book of Luke 21, it tells us there will be signs and to watch and pray always that we may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass. So yes, I believe that when we see these things such as the present time being fulfilled then we know that time is at hand. "But to know the day and the hour of Christ's Coming, I'll just keep praying:pray: and leave that up to the father". God Bless!;)

baxpack7
Mar 2nd 2008, 11:34 PM
I have a theory(unproven of course) Perhaps we will know the hour and time of his return after the rapture takes place in which all who are in Christ are taken up to be with Him. I think that at the time of the rapture, we will then know everything that there is to know including the time of His return(post-trib maybe), What do ya'll think? God bless!

ServantoftheKing
Mar 2nd 2008, 11:40 PM
It's most likely we won't know the exact day until 7 days prior, but as Noah knew long before to prepare the ark we will know long before also.

If we take a close look at the death and resurrection of the two witnesses in Rev 11:7-13, we see that they are slain and then three and a half days later they are called up to heaven by a great voice and a great earthquake immediately follows.

Great voice
Called up to heaven in the clouds
Great earthquake
The two witnesses are caught up along with the church in the rapture. Their enemies alone see them go up to heaven. Why doesn't the church? Because the church is caught up at the same time. If this is the case, we are looking at the rapture occuring three and a half days after the two witnesses are killed.

I'm not trying to set any dates here, because I have no idea when these events will occur. But it does look like whenever the two witnesses are killed, that is a very good clue for us. It's just not something that we can know at this time.

ServantoftheKing

White Spider
Mar 3rd 2008, 12:48 AM
It's most likely we won't know the exact day until 7 days prior, but as Noah knew long before to prepare the ark we will know long before also.

If we take a close look at the death and resurrection of the two witnesses in Rev 11:7-13, we see that they are slain and then three and a half days later they are called up to heaven by a great voice and a great earthquake immediately follows.

Great voice
Called up to heaven in the clouds
Great earthquake
The two witnesses are caught up along with the church in the rapture. Their enemies alone see them go up to heaven. Why doesn't the church? Because the church is caught up at the same time. If this is the case, we are looking at the rapture occuring three and a half days after the two witnesses are killed.

I'm not trying to set any dates here, because I have no idea when these events will occur. But it does look like whenever the two witnesses are killed, that is a very good clue for us. It's just not something that we can know at this time.

ServantoftheKing

Now like when referencing Daniel and the week being 7 years, could 3 and a half days be 3 and a half years? Just a question because when talking about the end there seems to be some fancy codes I always get confused and I never know when a day is a day or when it's a year?

ServantoftheKing
Mar 3rd 2008, 01:28 AM
Now like when referencing Daniel and the week being 7 years, could 3 and a half days be 3 and a half years? Just a question because when talking about the end there seems to be some fancy codes I always get confused and I never know when a day is a day or when it's a year?

Possibly, but I think they are a literal 3 1/2 days. The two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days according to Rev 11:3. This is the same length of time (42 months) allotted for the beast to utter blasphemies in Rev 13:5. They are prophesying during the Tribulation, at the end of which they are killed. 3 1/2 days later they are brought back to life and caught up in the rapture along with the rest of the church.

Interesting thread.

ServantoftheKing

patmos1
Mar 3rd 2008, 04:40 AM
This is how I read all the scripture involved. Be ready... don't care about the when cause Jesus doesn't even know when... but JUST BE READY!

That sounds about right. Simply "be ready"!

Firstfruits
Mar 3rd 2008, 04:18 PM
That sounds about right. Simply "be ready"!

May I just add Watch and be ready!!!!!!

TJW08
Mar 3rd 2008, 10:46 PM
1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

This verse is saying that the day the Lord comes will not surprise us like a thief. Indeed we will have been waiting and watching everyday so this day will not seem like a surprise if everyday we think the Lord is coming. Amen? However we live as though the Lord comes tonight, but plan like He will come in a milennium. We aren't in darkness so the day won't surprise us like a thief, rather an expectation we have of that day will be fulfilled if we are truly watching and waiting. It will be a Glorious fulfillment indeed, for us anyway :pp! ! ! Praise God

Firstfruits
Mar 4th 2008, 12:39 PM
1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

This verse is saying that the day the Lord comes will not surprise us like a thief. Indeed we will have been waiting and watching everyday so this day will not seem like a surprise if everyday we think the Lord is coming. Amen? However we live as though the Lord comes tonight, but plan like He will come in a milennium. We aren't in darkness so the day won't surprise us like a thief, rather an expectation we have of that day will be fulfilled if we are truly watching and waiting. It will be a Glorious fulfillment indeed, for us anyway :pp! ! ! Praise God

Let us hold on to God's promises as we have been given.

Rev 10:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

We know what must be fulfilled before Jesus returns, according to that which is written.

White Spider
Mar 5th 2008, 03:31 AM
We know what must be fulfilled before Jesus returns, according to that which is written.

So what else needs to happen that hasn't?

If we can answer this question accurately we will probably be able to determine when some of those things will happen and get a better understanding of the time period when Christ will return.

So those who understand better than I please let us know what you think must still happen . . .

Edit: Just thought I'd share this with you all, it's a brief story of a 12 year old girl and how she's experienced God.

http://tinyurl.com/yxewot

Firstfruits
Mar 5th 2008, 08:55 AM
So what else needs to happen that hasn't?

If we can answer this question accurately we will probably be able to determine when some of those things will happen and get a better understanding of the time period when Christ will return.

So those who understand better than I please let us know what you think must still happen . . .

Edit: Just thought I'd share this with you all, it's a brief story of a 12 year old girl and how she's experienced God.

http://tinyurl.com/yxewot

By the seventh trumpet all that God promised his servants should be fulfilled/finished, therefore all the events of the previous trumpets must be fulfilled before then. Also all that must be fulfilled before the trumpets can begin to sound must be fulfilled, ie the beast and the false prophet, that will both be here when Jesus returns, including all that it is written they will do.

So although we may hope for the soon return of Jesus, we must think of what it means for us, before he said he will return, according to God's promise.