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Atrandomdutch
Mar 3rd 2008, 12:15 PM
So, what is YOUR opinion?

SammeyDW
Mar 3rd 2008, 07:44 PM
IMHO,
A "gay christian" is like saying "a christain who is pro-abortion".
Both worldly lies, and no love in them.
And Christ cannot be a part of anything that has no love.
Because HE IS LOVE Perfected.
So therefore He is not a part of 'gay' or 'pro-abortion'.
Regardless of whether or not they say they are Christians.
IMHO, They either never knew Him to start with or
they have been blinded by the world and seriously fallen out of line with Christ.

Athanasius
Mar 3rd 2008, 07:54 PM
It is a sin, no matter where it's found. You cannot be a gay Christian.
Why so many threads on homosexuality?

Slug1
Mar 3rd 2008, 08:06 PM
Living as an active homosexual and having faith in God is putting "conditions" on the will of God to suit their needs. Homosexuality is a sin, always will be a sin, and thus will not be within the will of God for those that have faith in Him. Believing in God and saying, "I have faith in God" is much different then having a "relationship" with God. A relationship means you will do what the Bible says to be within the will of God.

If a person says they are a Christian yet says that an active homosexual relationship is not sin or is within the will of God is only worshiping a god of their making and not God, who IS.

swtjudy
Mar 3rd 2008, 08:20 PM
It is a sin, no matter where it's found. You cannot be a gay Christian.
Why so many threads on homosexuality?
Hey, i was wondering the same thing.

militarywife
Mar 4th 2008, 02:20 PM
I believe homosexuality is sin. Period.

I have to say this, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, we need to fix our conversations on Godly things.

Psalm 119:26-28

26 I have declared my ways, and You answered me;
Teach me Your statutes.
27 Make me understand the way of Your precepts;
So shall I meditate on Your wonderful works.
28 My soul melts from heaviness;
Strengthen me according to Your word.

HisLeast
Mar 4th 2008, 06:46 PM
I define "gay" as having strong or irrevocable same sex attraction. But homosexual acts are the sin. See the distinction?

Thus I believe there can be gay Christians.

baxpack7
Mar 9th 2008, 02:37 AM
God considers homosexuality an "abomination", therefore it would have to be considered a sin.

alethos
Mar 9th 2008, 02:38 PM
Howsexuals will never enter the kingdom of Heaven, unless He first is changed.

1 Cor 6:9
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom.

pnewton
Mar 9th 2008, 08:35 PM
Homosexual acts are sinful. Christians can sin and still be saved, for which I am truly grateful. Only one sin will never be forgiven in Heaven or on Earth and it isn't homosexuality.

If you equate being a homosexual as being an unrepentant homosexual, then, no, they would not saved, but then neither would the unrepentant gossip or the unrepentant liar.

JaybeeinBibleForum
Mar 9th 2008, 10:20 PM
This too is a question worth of it's own thread; leaving aside the entire question of homosexuality for a moment...

...Precisely what level, if any, of post-Savioural-acceptance sin can a Christian engage in without being excluded from Heaven? If none, and we are ALL sinners, are we not all doomed to Hell?

JaybeeinBibleForum
Mar 9th 2008, 10:34 PM
This too is a question worth of it's own thread; leaving aside the entire question of homosexuality for a moment...

...Precisely what level, if any, of post-Savioural-acceptance sin can a Christian engage in without being excluded from Heaven? If none, and we are ALL sinners, are we not all doomed to Hell?

daughter
Mar 9th 2008, 10:42 PM
My opinion, which is not in the poll is this...

Why this obsession with homosexuality, of all the many sins in the world today? Before I came to Christ I comitted all sorts of sins... including homosexuality, witchcraft, violence, theft, etc etc etc...

Why is it that homosexuality is the one that everyone seems to get het up about? When did shop lifting, vandalism and witchcraft become less alarming than homosexuality?

baxpack7
Mar 10th 2008, 12:27 AM
This too is a question worth of it's own thread; leaving aside the entire question of homosexuality for a moment...

...Precisely what level, if any, of post-Savioural-acceptance sin can a Christian engage in without being excluded from Heaven? If none, and we are ALL sinners, are we not all doomed to Hell?

You're right-this needs its own thread. Having said that: If you are saved,and you commit sin, ask and it shall be forgiven, But if you keep on doing the same sin, then you aren't being repentant, and therefore aren't really looking for true forgiveness.

finewine
Mar 10th 2008, 03:11 AM
This too is a question worth of it's own thread; leaving aside the entire question of homosexuality for a moment...

...Precisely what level, if any, of post-Savioural-acceptance sin can a Christian engage in without being excluded from Heaven? If none, and we are ALL sinners, are we not all doomed to Hell?

All sins were forgiven on the cross. When we agree with GOD we are sinners and cannot get to heaven by our own merit and trust in his redemptive work on the Cross and in the resurrection we are saved.

You cannot lose your salvation.

We are sinners saved by grace.
I think sin keeps us humble before the living GOD so that we may not boast of our righteousness and become like the Pharisees.
I think sin keeps us on our knees so that we may understand the fullness and the mysteries of GOD's love in our lives.

We have the power within us to choose not to sin.
We are a new creature in Christ, but we also still have the sin nature within us.

Does this mean we can abuse GOD's grace and just sin whenever we want to sin?
Paul says in Romans emphatically, "NO!"

I think there is a difference between a rebellious abuse of GOD's grace and a contrite heart that wishes to follow Christ but still has trouble.

The prodigal son comes to mind.
He was welcomed back home.
He did not lose his position as son but he did suffer the consequences of his leaving his home.

We will not be doomed to hell if we continue to sin.

There are rewards given in heaven for our good works.
They are all placed at Christ's feet in love and respect.
Some believers will have many rewards to give Christ while others will enter heaven and still smell of smoke.

We want to hear him say "well done, good and faithful servant."
We as children want to please our father in heaven.

Is it our pride or is it our gratitude that causes us to want to hear those words?
I say if it is our pride then the rewards given are chaff burnt up.
I say if it is gratitude then the rewards given are silver and gold that has been purified in the fire of forgiveness and love given me, a sinner, who does not deserve such love, grace, or mercy.

The wrath of GOD's judgment for the punishment of sin was placed squarely on Christ for our behalf.
What greater love is there?

abidinglife
Mar 10th 2008, 04:01 AM
hmm it really depends, i do agree mostly with what hisleast has said. But i definately think that homosexuality is a sin, fullstop. No exceptions, God has said it, and his word is law.

When the poll says gay, does it mean repentant gay or just unrepentent totally think it's okay gay?? I voted that they would get to heaven as i assumed the former.

lost_little_one
Mar 12th 2008, 04:37 PM
It really hinges on your definition of gay or homos*xual.

jmj
Mar 18th 2008, 12:56 AM
I put the first one- because I think homosexuality is a sin in any shape or form- I believe sex to be a physical, spiritual, emotional commitment to each other and to God to be with the other person for the rest of their lives, and I believe any sexual activity is a sin if it isn't what God originally designed sex to be, which is depicted exactly in Genesis- between one woman and one man in marriage.

That being said, I voted yes to someone being gay and a Christian because I believe that someone can have a gay sexual orientation, but when they become a Christian they say yes to following Jesus and turning away from their old lives and deciding to become celibate for the rest of their lives and serve God instead of their own sinful desires that belong to the world and their flesh, and instead to follow God's desires.

Buck shot
Mar 18th 2008, 05:18 PM
I believe that you cannot be a gay Christian. You can be a Christian who still struggles with gay feelings just as a Christian that still struggles with wanting to just hang out and drink but you cannot be a drunk Christian.

Many of us have put off the old man but then turn and put the old stuff back in our pockets until the Lord presses on us to throw it out.


Col 3:8But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

MrAnteater
Mar 18th 2008, 06:01 PM
Some have questioned why this topic keeps coming up.

My answer is this. There are Christian people who will tell you homosexuality is OK, doesn't violate God's truths, and see nothing wrong with living in a homosexual relationship. It's shocking to me that people claiming to be saved Christians are so fiercely defending homosexuality.

Homosexuality isn't some vague, one line in the bible, easily misunderstood commandment of God. God speaks out against homosexuality over and over and over again. It is not his plan and it's something he does not condone.

ChristianKnight
Mar 25th 2008, 06:12 AM
Gays are sinning and they know it, hence cannot be a Christian. That is like saying a Serial Killer that kills people while saying he is a Christian is false.

EmoAngel
Mar 27th 2008, 12:03 AM
It's a sin and no you can't be a gay Christian.

LadyinWaiting
Mar 28th 2008, 12:06 AM
Personally, since homosexuality itself is the attraction (does not HAVE to include acts); I think some may feel an attraction and yet still be saved (and have the will-power to avoid said acts).

However, it is NOT for me to judge someone's salvation. My aunt was raised in the church, Christian parents, reportedly saved and baptized as a young child. She married, and a few gorgeous children, and then decided to divorce him and be a lesbian. I don't think that negates salvation as a child since I believe that once we're saved, we're always saved. I do know that she will be called to the floor to be accountable for that decision and all subsequent issues because she thinks they are correct.

I find her sliding back into the worldly ways, but that doesn't discount her salvation because the only one who can judge a person's soul is God.

There are Christians who are engaging in p*rn each and every day. They are also the sexually immoral. However, no one seems to question their salvation experience.

I just view immorality as immorality. People get caught up and mired in sin each and every day. Thankfully we have a Savior who does forgive (when we ask).

"Gays are sinning and they know it, hence cannot be a Christian."
Those who lie are sinning (yet almost all Christians will do it at least once within any given week.) Those who do not dedicate time to studying the Word and learning Scripture are also sinning (yet how many of us sit in front of our computers or in front of our TV for hours without cracking a Bible). Those who get angry or curse are also sinning. Those who seek revenge are sinning. All of those things can be done KNOWING it's a sin. So does that mean that no one is able to be saved?

Don't get me wrong. Homosexuality is not of God, there is nothing beneficial or holy about it. It most certainly is not okay. I just don't think it's right of us to judge someone's salvation when some have been blinded by the world and need people encouraging a lifestyle change and repentance before they need someone to throw a Bible at them and say there is no possible way they were ever saved.

I've done some horrible things in my past, and continued in several sins multiple times and for years, knowing they were wrong. Thankfully, God delivered me from them and I'm on the other side of it now (no, I never dabbled in homosexuality...so don't think that, please). I don't think I was "unsaved" (I accepted Christ as my savior when I was in grade school). I do think that I chose to wander from God, like many do. Thankfully, many of us find our ways home to God's forgiving arms like the Prodigal in the scriptures.

"Oh to Grace how great a debtor daily I'm constrained to be. Let thy goodness, like a fetter, bind my wandering heart to thee. Prone to wander, Lord I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. " <- The man who wrote those words was later convicted by them as he had been the one to wander and leave AFTER writing such eloquent words. As the song says though, "Here's my heart, Lord, take and seal it. Seal it for thy courts above."

Praise God for His forgiveness and for allowing us to return to him.

RZ06
Apr 9th 2008, 06:39 AM
I do feel homosexuality is a sin, but I do not judge someone who chooses to be gay. It's not up to me to decide someone's fate. Who am I to say they are not a Christian? People who claim to be Christian's create sin everyday (namely, me). Why is my sin any better?

Slug1
Apr 13th 2008, 12:10 AM
I do feel homosexuality is a sin, but I do not judge someone who chooses to be gay. It's not up to me to decide someone's fate. Who am I to say they are not a Christian? People who claim to be Christian's create sin everyday (namely, me). Why is my sin any better?The difference is you have identified what is sin, while homosexuals do not identify this act of relations with the same sex as a sin. That is the difference. A Christian will be convicted by their faith in Jesus what is sin and since the Bible is clear that this is a sin and a Christian who says it is not... needs to be corrected with the Truth.

I agree we are not to judge whether they are a true Christian for that is only for Jesus to do but there is nothing stopping a Christian from helping such a person to understand the Truth and help them correct this and stop living in sin, IOW's repent and stop being homosexual.

theteacherspet
Apr 13th 2008, 01:29 AM
I think you can be gay and also be a Christian, yes, and I know people who are leading that life right now.

Athanasius
Apr 13th 2008, 06:32 AM
I think you can be gay and also be a Christian, yes, and I know people who are leading that life right now.

I'm wondering if you could provide for me (or us?) passages of scripture that condone continued living in sin after repentence and acceptance of Christ?

harry
Apr 13th 2008, 11:36 AM
there's a very talented musician called stephen hough who thinks it's ok to be a gay christian.

http://www.stephenhough.com

wikipedia says : He has also published THE BIBLE AS PRAYER: a handbook for lectio divina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectio_divina).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hough#cite_note-4)
----------
how do i happen to know this? i've just started a book called a church at war - anglicans and homosexuality : link to publishers below

http://www.ibtauris.com/display.asp?K=9781850434801&bic=HRB*&ds=Christianity&sort=sort_title&m=7&dc=27

i'm reading the updated paperback version. i'll let you all know if it's a happy ending. in the short-term, i guess, almost certainly not.

in response to daughter - shoplifting and vandalism require less remedial action than homosexual behaviour IMO.

Slug1
Apr 13th 2008, 01:24 PM
I'm wondering if you could provide for me (or us?) passages of scripture that condone continued living in sin after repentence and acceptance of Christ?I agree, I'm sure that if a murderer was a "Christian" and continued to kill a few times a month that the truth of their salvation would be in question by many, many Christians. Amazing how the sin of active relations between the same sex goes on without question with many Christians and some even say it's OK. satan has done a great job on this one :(

NHL Fever
Apr 14th 2008, 05:57 PM
I think the poll is inadequate because it doesn't differentiate between the guy who recognizes he likes dudes (like the alcoholic who recognizes he likes beer), and the guy who recognizes he likes dudes and thinks its ok.

Revinius
Apr 20th 2008, 02:45 PM
homosexuality threads are starting to give me deja vu. Same repetitive stuff on the same repetitive topic. The bible is clear even if our definitions are not, stop self justifying or justifying for others and repent if you know you are in sin. THREAD OVER!

skc53
Apr 21st 2008, 02:02 AM
A person cannot be gay and be a Christian! It is a sin.

JordanW
May 5th 2008, 06:33 PM
Yes, it is a sin in any shape or form, and you can't be a gay christian

Revinius
May 5th 2008, 06:48 PM
i worry for those 5 'christian' people who voted for "Its not a sin in a committed loving relationship". I wonder which other bits of the Bible they want to throw out next.

DelphiCoder82
May 12th 2008, 04:16 AM
I would love all of you "Christians" to point out in the Bible exactly where it says that it is a sin to be a homosexual. I find it sad how many "Christians" are quick to denounce gays, but don't even know why they think it is a sin. Let's see some scripture here to back up your words.

Ashley274
May 12th 2008, 05:16 AM
I believe you can be a gay christian AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT ACT on your gender preference . One can be an alcoholic and not have a drink in 20 years (any alkie in recovery will tell you once an alkie always an alkie) but if one gave up the ACT of homosexuality for God....they are Christian

Tanya~
May 12th 2008, 05:51 AM
Homosexuality is a sin according to the Scriptures. It isn't acceptable for a Christian to "be gay."

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals , nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

Phil Fourie
May 12th 2008, 06:05 AM
Before we go down this road again, please make sure you read the following:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=119044

Revinius
May 12th 2008, 06:11 AM
I would love all of you "Christians" to point out in the Bible exactly where it says that it is a sin to be a homosexual. I find it sad how many "Christians" are quick to denounce gays, but don't even know why they think it is a sin. Let's see some scripture here to back up your words.

Go read the myriad other posts on the topic, i am sick of cutting and pasting my responses as i am sure other here are. Phil gave you a good link, let us know what you think.

Athanasius
May 12th 2008, 06:24 AM
I would love all of you "Christians" to point out in the Bible exactly where it says that it is a sin to be a homosexual. I find it sad how many "Christians" are quick to denounce gays, but don't even know why they think it is a sin. Let's see some scripture here to back up your words.

I'm wondering; what's your response to the scripture TanyaP posted? Live Revinius, I'm rather tired... And don't bother posting that website again, it has an extremely poor hermeneutic. The Greek is not at all under dispute.

Revinius
May 12th 2008, 02:01 PM
Indeed, twisting Greek to mean something it doesnt is paramount to trying to change the Word itself (which many parts of the Bible curse people for). Stop justifying the sin and live for Him!

Friend of Jesus
May 15th 2008, 01:44 PM
There is little point in discussing our opinioins on Homosexuality if God says it is wrong.

However I would like to point out that although homosexuality is wrong, we should not judge homosexuals, and instead treat them like Jesus would treat them. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and showed mercy to thieves- never once did he point to sinner and say "you're going to hell".

When it gets right down to it- we have all sinned, so there is little point judging homosexuals as if they were worse than us. Instead we should pity them and help them. For this very well justified reason I believe that we should not be so quick to point the finger, we should "take the log" out of our eyes first before we "point out the speck" in someone elses.

Yes, homosexual acts are wrong and homosexuality is often a result of other sin. But the question should not be "who sinned?"- the question should be "who saves?"

The answer- Jesus (thank God!)

Revinius
May 15th 2008, 02:45 PM
There is little point in discussing our opinioins on Homosexuality if God says it is wrong.

However I would like to point out that although homosexuality is wrong, we should not judge homosexuals, and instead treat them like Jesus would treat them. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and showed mercy to thieves- never once did he point to sinner and say "you're going to hell".

When it gets right down to it- we have all sinned, so there is little point judging homosexuals as if they were worse than us. Instead we should pity them and help them. For this very well justified reason I believe that we should not be so quick to point the finger, we should "take the log" out of our eyes first before we "point out the speck" in someone elses.

Yes, homosexual acts are wrong and homosexuality is often a result of other sin. But the question should not be "who sinned?"- the question should be "who saves?"

The answer- Jesus (thank God!)

the problem is when we encounter people who call themselves Christian yet wilfully keep sinning.

Friend of Jesus
May 15th 2008, 02:59 PM
the problem is when we encounter people who call themselves Christian yet wilfully keep sinning.

I've been there, done that- Thankfully God pulled me out by the neck and put me back on my feet. Therefore, I have no right to judge Homosexuals.

A good example would be the "breaking the chains" forum. We don't judge anyone who posts on that forum (I should hope not anyway) because we know we've been there. Instead we help them with their sin.

So instead of judging homosexuals :o we should help them :pray:

See I even use smilies to illustrate a point ;)

Athanasius
May 15th 2008, 05:32 PM
Pity is a form of judgment, unfortunately.
And who saves is just as important as who sinned -.-

Friend of Jesus
May 15th 2008, 06:17 PM
Pity is a form of judgment, unfortunately.
And who saves is just as important as who sinned -.-

Read John 9:3-5. The point is that everyone sins- only one saves

Revinius
May 16th 2008, 06:47 AM
There is a difference between 'judging' them and assessing them under biblical standards. If we didnt constantly assess the church as a whole and keep us and our brothers on the narrow path there would be alot more heresy in the works (too much as is anyway). We need to acknowledge that sin is there and wilfully do something about it, our weapons are love and our God is just.

Friend of Jesus
May 16th 2008, 09:42 AM
There is a difference between 'judging' them and assessing them under biblical standards. If we didnt constantly assess the church as a whole and keep us and our brothers on the narrow path there would be alot more heresy in the works (too much as is anyway). We need to acknowledge that sin is there and wilfully do something about it, our weapons are love and our God is just.

I agree totally- I was not referring to anyone on this thread, I was referring to some Christians who treat homosexuals like scum.

markinro
May 17th 2008, 12:38 PM
Why would someone - after salvation - continue to identify themselves with their sin ? We are new creations. OLD things are passed away. If God remembers our sin no longer, then why should we ?

Labeling yourself "homosexual christian" is a contradiction. You cannot seve two masters.

Repentance is a turning away, about-face. Homsexuality is - from what I have heard - a chosen lifestyle. The gay (sugar-coating) church is a deception and will end up condemning people.

On another note. I think we see more threads on homsexuality these days because it's the new afront to Jesus and His church. If this were 20 years ago, I'm guessing there would see more threads on abortion.

EarlyCall
May 17th 2008, 12:42 PM
So, what is YOUR opinion?

What is my opinion worth when I can read what God says. That is one of the sure things about God: He has no opinions on anything.

Slug1
May 17th 2008, 02:14 PM
Labeling yourself "homosexual christian" is a contradiction. You cannot seve two masters.

Repentance is a turning away, about-face. Homsexuality is - from what I have heard - a chosen lifestyle. The gay (sugar-coating) church is a deception and will end up condemning people.
Yep I agree, I don't remember if it's this thread or another on this topic where I said this but if a Christian stood up in church and said, "I'm a Christian who murders a person 3 times a week" or steals, or whatever sin... then how is that a relationship with God??? They labeled themselves "Christian" but are not serving God but a god of their own making who accepts sin.

Revinius
May 18th 2008, 07:41 AM
Yup....the 'homosexual Christian' (whatever that means) fails the law of non-contradiction.

CoffeeCat
May 18th 2008, 08:02 AM
I think we need to be careful. I believe homosexuality is a sin (that is, actively lusting after someone of the same sex, or 'practicing' the behaviour) but I FULLY believe someone can be a Christian and still have an inclination TO homosexual preference, without acting on it or even wanting to. Many believe that homosexuality is a 'choice'. I'd say only what we focus on, and our actions themselves, are our choice. Not the inclination itself.

For example, let's suppose I have an inclination to steal. Let's say from the time I was 4 or 5, I've wanted to steal something very, very badly. Now, I have a few options. I can
a) call theft a sin and refuse to focus on it or do it because I'm a Christian
b) say "oh, it's not bad to THINK about stealing as long as I don't do it
or
c) go out and steal.

Chances are, I won't instantly be 'cured' of my desire to steal, even after becoming a Christian. It might take time. It might take work and prayer and therapy and help. It might never go away. But I still have a choice. I can still be Christian. If we waited for our sins to fully leave us before we came to Christ, none of us would be Christian. I can also recognize that a strong focus on the theft is wrong, and against what God wants for me. I can furthermore say "yes, every now and again I have a strong desire to steal, but I will not ACTUALLY DO IT". And I can be a Christian.

It's the same with homosexuality. I say that as someone who USED to identify, in PART, with that 'orientation'. Christ has freed me more than I felt would ever be possible (see my testimony in the testimonials forum) but I AM human, I still occasionally slip and think or wonder something I shouldn't. I'm not perfect. But I AM a sinner saved by grace. I do not CALL myself homosexual or bisexual; to label myself is to identify with the sin itself. I simply say that I need to ask Christ for guidance and forgiveness like we all do, and I have been able to leave my past behind me. Finally. I wish all of us felt as free in Christ.

I believe we can have a feeling or desire and still be Christian, yes. It's choosing to not focus on it, to not do it, and to focus on Christ that's key. And just so I know I won't focus on this subject, it's the last time I'll mention my own issues with this subject on the board. I'd sooner focus on faith, on learning, on making new friends here, on apologetics. On Christ. :)

Friend of Jesus
May 18th 2008, 08:05 AM
Very good point- And yes let's focus on Christ

Oma
Jun 8th 2008, 08:55 PM
Why this obsession with homosexuality, of all the many sins in the world today?
Why is it that homosexuality is the one that everyone seems to get het up about? When did shop lifting, vandalism and witchcraft become less alarming than homosexuality?

Because homosexualitiy destroys the family which is the basic building block of society. When the family fails the whole society will eventually go down the drain.

In Canada where we have the counterfit "gay marriaige" anything said against them is considered hate even what's quoted from the Bible. In a recent case before the bogus Human Rights Commision ( read that Inquisition) a marriage commissioner was fined $2,500 for his refusal to perform a “wedding” ceremony for two homosexual men even though he referred them to a commisioner who would marry them. And that's only one case...

There's a battle raging out there and churches need to take a strong stand while they still can.

Once the definition of marriage is tampered with the door is open to all other unmentionables

I'm glad to see that many here voted that homosexuality is sin and there is no such thing as a "gay" Christian. 1Cor.6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: niether .... effeminate nor abusers of themselves with mankind, ......shall inherit the kingdom of God.

EarlyCall
Jun 8th 2008, 09:07 PM
Because homosexualitiy destroys the family which is the basic building block of society. When the family fails the whole society will eventually go down the drain.

In Canada where we have the counterfit "gay marriaige" anything said against them is considered hate even what's quoted from the Bible. In a recent case before the bogus Human Rights Commision ( read that Inquisition) a marriage commissioner was fined $2,500 for his refusal to perform a “wedding” ceremony for two homosexual men even though he referred them to a commisioner who would marry them. And that's only one case...

There's a battle raging out there and churches need to take a strong stand while they still can.

Once the definition of marriage is tampered with the door is open to all other unmentionables

I'm glad to see that many here voted that homosexuality is sin and there is no such thing as a "gay" Christian. 1Cor.6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: niether .... effeminate nor abusers of themselves with mankind, ......shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Indeed. I've been reading about that kangaroo court in Canada. Only a matter of time before we have it here in America. We already do in isolated cases. And they are increasing in frequency.

Buzzword
Jun 9th 2008, 12:24 PM
Because homosexualitiy destroys the family which is the basic building block of society. When the family fails the whole society will eventually go down the drain.

In Canada where we have the counterfit "gay marriaige" anything said against them is considered hate even what's quoted from the Bible. In a recent case before the bogus Human Rights Commision ( read that Inquisition) a marriage commissioner was fined $2,500 for his refusal to perform a “wedding” ceremony for two homosexual men even though he referred them to a commisioner who would marry them. And that's only one case...

There's a battle raging out there and churches need to take a strong stand while they still can.

Once the definition of marriage is tampered with the door is open to all other unmentionables

I'm glad to see that many here voted that homosexuality is sin and there is no such thing as a "gay" Christian. 1Cor.6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: niether .... effeminate nor abusers of themselves with mankind, ......shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you really think the "family" CAN be hurt by homosexuality....when HETEROSEXUAL DIVORCE has been killing it for DECADES?

I agree with CoffeeCat, though I believe that only God can determine who really is fighting a battle with themselves...and who is just indulging in a sexual kink for their own pleasure.



That being said, there have been TWELVE people who voted that homosexuality is NOT a sin...so why haven't we heard from them?

Seeker of truth
Jun 9th 2008, 02:30 PM
I can't believe Christians defending anything God called an abomination :cry:

Would we defend adultry? Fornication? Murder? Stealing? To me "man shall not lie with man as he lie with woman" means DO NOT DO IT!

givemegrace
Jun 9th 2008, 02:30 PM
A sin is a sin, no sin is bigger or smaller, only Jesus was perfect, who am I to judge. Think this poll could offend and anger people who browse this sight, I have found this place to be a real encouragement. Love not anger. :pray: God Bless

Athanasius
Jun 9th 2008, 02:32 PM
Do you really think the "family" CAN be hurt by homosexuality....when HETEROSEXUAL DIVORCE has been killing it for DECADES?

Different things destroy different areas.



That being said, there have been TWELVE people who voted that homosexuality is NOT a sin...so why haven't we heard from them?

Because everyone would show them, biblically, how it is a sin.

Buzzword
Jun 9th 2008, 02:35 PM
Because everyone would show them, biblically, how it is a sin.

I.e., attack them for expressing their opinion on an issue on which apparently not everyone agrees.

Seeker of truth
Jun 9th 2008, 02:36 PM
A sin is a sin, no sin is bigger or smaller, only Jesus was perfect, who am I to judge. Think this poll could offend and anger people who browse this sight, I have found this place to be a real encouragement. Love not anger. :pray: God Bless

The Truth should not be sugar coated. Sin is not acceptable. If the Truth angers anyone perhaps they are feeling a bit convicted.

Seeker of truth
Jun 9th 2008, 02:37 PM
I.e., attack them for expressing their opinion on an issue on which apparently not everyone agrees.

No one should be made to feel comfortable in their sin.

Revinius
Jun 9th 2008, 03:00 PM
Because everyone would show them, biblically, how it is a sin.

There are few things i am certain of in this life and one of them is that people dont want to hear about something they have already made up there minds about. Those people that have stated that homosexuality is not a sin will not change their view simply because they do not want to. Such is the 'liberal christians' worldview (notice little 'c' for Christian). Their highest authority is their own desire and they use their plastic Jesus to justify their moral inconsistency. When challenged they retreat to their emotions, their emotions state that all people are innately good and that God (their plastic Jesus) never is wrathful to anybody. God conforms to their emotions which i guess ultimately means that (although they would deny it) they are their own Gods....something which keeps me up at night...weeping.

Ninna
Jun 9th 2008, 03:15 PM
I am moving this thread to Controversial Issues.

Slug1
Jun 9th 2008, 03:17 PM
A sin is a sin, no sin is bigger or smaller, only Jesus was perfect, who am I to judge. Think this poll could offend and anger people who browse this sight, I have found this place to be a real encouragement. Love not anger. :pray: God BlessLet them be angry while they read Biblical truth as correction. Better to be angry about it now but convicted and not to even support this sin and be called out on it when standing before God during judgment.

Ignoring sin and as you put it, which is not bigger or smaller... is still a sin and cannot be supported, ignored, defended etc. It should be spoken "against" and efforts to correct those who do support, defend, ignore homosexuality should be made by ALL Christians who have faith in God and not a god of their liking. If we don't, there is a chance that such people will be called out during judgment...

1 Timothy 5:22
22Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

Ashley274
Jun 9th 2008, 11:59 PM
Well said Rev I am with you 100% ...

Also I will add I am seeing a lot of first time posters who are pro gay and show it on post 1 or 2 ...I am kind of suspicious...
Also Daughter I don't think anyone here...at least myself.....thinks one sin is worse than another but I have not seen many people or groups saying they are pro wife swaping or pro stealing.....you do have pro gay groups ...any ACTIVE SIN is wrong and a sin .....I am a sinner too and just can't see how anyone can be gay and sinless UNLESS they mean gay but NOT active sexually

Seeker great post too


There are few things i am certain of in this life and one of them is that people dont want to hear about something they have already made up there minds about. Those people that have stated that homosexuality is not a sin will not change their view simply because they do not want to. Such is the 'liberal christians' worldview (notice little 'c' for Christian). Their highest authority is their own desire and they use their plastic Jesus to justify their moral inconsistency. When challenged they retreat to their emotions, their emotions state that all people are innately good and that God (their plastic Jesus) never is wrathful to anybody. God conforms to their emotions which i guess ultimately means that (although they would deny it) they are their own Gods....something which keeps me up at night...weeping.

Athanasius
Jun 10th 2008, 01:14 AM
I.e., attack them for expressing their opinion on an issue on which apparently not everyone agrees.

Only if you view disagreement as attack.

Revinius
Jun 10th 2008, 04:19 AM
I.e., attack them for expressing their opinion on an issue on which apparently not everyone agrees.

If the Lord disagrees with them is it an attack?

Joyfilled
Jun 13th 2008, 03:15 PM
It is a sin, no matter where it's found. You cannot be a gay Christian.
Why so many threads on homosexuality?

Because unfortunately, Satan is beginning to control our churches. the ELCA refuses to admit that homosexuality is a sin because they want the praises of men rather than the praises of God. So the few elect in the world have to constantly stand up for the truth.

Diggindeeper
Jun 13th 2008, 03:50 PM
James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

If we do something that God refers to as an abomination, how can we call it good? This is saying If we don't do GOOD, we ARE willfully sinning.

Revinius
Jun 13th 2008, 05:35 PM
If we do something that God refers to as an abomination, how can we call it good? This is saying If we don't do GOOD, we ARE willfully sinning.

Which is a salvation issue. :cry:

redeemedbyhim
Jun 13th 2008, 11:42 PM
My opinion, which is not in the poll is this...

Why this obsession with homosexuality, of all the many sins in the world today? Before I came to Christ I comitted all sorts of sins... including homosexuality, witchcraft, violence, theft, etc etc etc...

Why is it that homosexuality is the one that everyone seems to get het up about? When did shop lifting, vandalism and witchcraft become less alarming than homosexuality?

That's a good question. I've been thinking about this and though I may be wrong, I think because the homosexual lifestyle has gained so much credence and acceptance of late and it seems like another sign of the end times. Being aware of those signs, such as lawlessness increasing, it makes this particular lifestyle more in the forefront. Kind of like others have been discussing the miard of disturbing weather patterns, earthquakes and so on.
I'm old enough to remember the days when "gay" was a word with different meaning and there was no such thing as a "gay pride parade" and I'm not that old. ;)
So, although shop lifting and things like that have been around since the beginning, this particular lifestyle, has never been held in high regard by so many until fairly recent times.
I think we would be wondering the same thing if it were now acceptable to engage in theft, violence, etc..
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts concerning; why now?

EarlyCall
Jun 14th 2008, 10:36 PM
My opinion, which is not in the poll is this...

Why this obsession with homosexuality, of all the many sins in the world today? Before I came to Christ I comitted all sorts of sins... including homosexuality, witchcraft, violence, theft, etc etc etc...

Why is it that homosexuality is the one that everyone seems to get het up about? When did shop lifting, vandalism and witchcraft become less alarming than homosexuality?

I'd like to address this.

Do you recall the days, I do, when g*ys told us to keep our mouths shut about them and their lifestyle because what they did behind closed doors was none of our business.

But it isn't behind closed doors anymore. And who brought it out into the open? Who is it that has brought it into our schools to teach this sin to our children even at grade school level?

It is on TV, in magazines, in our news, in our government, in our courts. It is everywhere. Who put it everywhere? The g*ys have.

They have changed society into what it ought not be. They have not given us the option to not be a part of it. The little we do have to escape it they are trying to do away with. People in America are being persecuted for not violating their Christian principles and accommodating g*ys.

So while they shove it down our throats at every possible chance they get in every possible manner they can, we re merely reacting to this.

It will only get worse.

I told my mother and a few others back in the early 90's that persecution to Americans would come through the g*ys. That is now coming true. Of course it isn't just the g*ys. Liberals seek the same thing, but it is all being done under the g*y umbrella and the g*ys are the driving force behind it. It is the same force they used against the two angels and the stranger passing through that town in Israel. That spirit never died and still lives on. It comes with this sin.

So to me, these things seem like something to get worked up about.

I dunno. Sometimes I wish God would finally send judgment on this nation. I am so sick and tired of the wickedness I see. My only problem is that my family and loved ones and I will pay the price of judgment along with the wicked. But the time will come when that judgment will be a blessing for us. I can't help but think God cannot refrain much longer, but then I wonder. God does have the option of letting us stew in our own wickedness and reap what we sow. I don't know what God will do to be honest.

Revinius
Jun 15th 2008, 06:51 AM
I'd like to address this.

Do you recall the days, I do, when g*ys told us to keep our mouths shut about them and their lifestyle because what they did behind closed doors was none of our business.

But it isn't behind closed doors anymore. And who brought it out into the open? Who is it that has brought it into our schools to teach this sin to our children even at grade school level?

It is on TV, in magazines, in our news, in our government, in our courts. It is everywhere. Who put it everywhere? The g*ys have.

They have changed society into what it ought not be. They have not given us the option to not be a part of it. The little we do have to escape it they are trying to do away with. People in America are being persecuted for not violating their Christian principles and accommodating g*ys.

So while they shove it down our throats at every possible chance they get in every possible manner they can, we re merely reacting to this.

It will only get worse.

I told my mother and a few others back in the early 90's that persecution to Americans would come through the g*ys. That is now coming true. Of course it isn't just the g*ys. Liberals seek the same thing, but it is all being done under the g*y umbrella and the g*ys are the driving force behind it. It is the same force they used against the two angels and the stranger passing through that town in Israel. That spirit never died and still lives on. It comes with this sin.

So to me, these things seem like something to get worked up about.

I dunno. Sometimes I wish God would finally send judgment on this nation. I am so sick and tired of the wickedness I see. My only problem is that my family and loved ones and I will pay the price of judgment along with the wicked. But the time will come when that judgment will be a blessing for us. I can't help but think God cannot refrain much longer, but then I wonder. God does have the option of letting us stew in our own wickedness and reap what we sow. I don't know what God will do to be honest.

I feel the same way globally mate..... the world is crying out for Him....its in its death throws... But... we must make the most and keep the rescue mission going.

daughter
Jun 15th 2008, 09:24 AM
I do know what you mean, Early Call. My son's school was criticised in the national press for sacking a teacher who decided to have an operation and change his gender, and people are not allowed to excercise their religious freedom, if they are Christian that is.

Look at these two stories for confirmation of how bad things are in the UK.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08052204.html

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=137199&command=displayContent&sourceNode=136986&contentPK=20749356&folderPk=79934&pNodeId=137002
...

EarlyCall
Jun 15th 2008, 11:46 AM
I feel the same way globally mate..... the world is crying out for Him....its in its death throws... But... we must make the most and keep the rescue mission going.

Yes we must. I've worked with a g*y person here and there and I held no ill towards them and treated them no differently because I see them as human beings in sin and I have only to look at myself to see such a wretched person to realize I deserve nothing good from God nor His love nor His mercy, forgiveness, compassion... the list goes on.

The tearing of the soul and heart and the mind comes into play because we can see what is becoming of the world, because we know where this leads, because we often feel completely helpless to prevent, stop and even to slow down most of the time. It tears at us because we do differentiate between the person and the actions while we are harmed by the actions. It is the sin we wish to do away with and not the person.

The society belongs to all of us and not just the g*ys or the liberals that would force their lifestyle, their wickedness upon us.

Sin is like a pebble thrown into the pond and long after that pebble has disappeared from sight, the ripples are still proceeding outward and the effect is felt far beyond the point of entry.

EarlyCall
Jun 15th 2008, 12:15 PM
I do know what you mean, Early Call. My son's school was criticised in the national press for sacking a teacher who decided to have an operation and change his gender, and people are not allowed to excercise their religious freedom, if they are Christian that is.

Look at these two stories for confirmation of how bad things are in the UK.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08052204.html

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=137199&command=displayContent&sourceNode=136986&contentPK=20749356&folderPk=79934&pNodeId=137002
...

Yes, I've been reading a number of articles, and they continue to increase in frequency. The opinions following the second article ar frightening. But those opinions are becoming the norm.

Peter and John paid the price because as they said, they must obey God and not man when man is contrary to God. The price we must pay will increase.

The time is coming when we will not speak of this issue on this board without paying the price. And so I imagine we will in fact not speak of it. We are compelled to speak of Christ and Him crucified as Paul said he would.

When we are silenced on this matter, we will be also silenced on most things concerning Christ and God. But God spoke of a time when His word would not be in the land - a famine of His word. I wonder if this is what He was talking about. What will it be like then?

daughter
Jun 15th 2008, 02:36 PM
You are right. There will come a time when any board that suggests homosexuality is a sin will be condemned for "hate crimes". Christian forums will have to steer clear of the subject, and anyone who steps outside the bounds of public opinion will have to be banned, or the thought police will have authority to shut down the boards.

I don't think those times are yet upon us, but they are coming.

When I first posted on this thread I hadn't seen as clearly where we're heading, but I see it with increasing clarity as the days go on. The majority of "Christians" that I know, including some who are very active in the church, will not tolerate any discussion of human sexuality. The devil has done a great job here... homosexuals are kept focussed on their one "big" self defining sin, and are made to think it's not a sin. Because they are convinced of that they won't look at the fact that they are sinners all through, as is every individual, before Christ redeems them.

When I talk to a homosexual I have to steer clear of sexual issues, because they are so well trained to sneer at any comments. I have to persuade them that (like me) they are also liars, theives, blasphemers, murderers at heart. And that therefore they need a saviour.

But it's such hard work... we focus on one sin, and the devil laughs, because in the muddle he has caused souls are being lost.

In the same way as fornication is no longer a sin, adultery is just a fact of life, now homosexuality is seen as "natural." In Germany the government produced a book about how to encourage sexual health in children... advising parents on how to fondle their toddlers privates. I'll find the link...

Paedophilia will be next. I can't believe I'm saying that, but when government agencies provide literature advising parent on how to teach their children to masturbate, we're in times more evil than we can imagine.

Only two years ago I would have said you were all mad to condemn sexual practises that didn't conform to the Bible. We need to concentrate on ALL sin, warn all sinners, regardless of what that sin is... but this has been built up as a special "exempt" sin by modern culture. We're deep behind enemy lines when we fight here... and the sheer prevalence of Christians who say "there is no problem" shows how very much is at stake.

Athanasius
Jun 15th 2008, 03:33 PM
Paedophilia will be next.

We're not so different from Rome, anymore ;\

EarlyCall
Jun 15th 2008, 03:49 PM
You are right. There will come a time when any board that suggests homosexuality is a sin will be condemned for "hate crimes". Christian forums will have to steer clear of the subject, and anyone who steps outside the bounds of public opinion will have to be banned, or the thought police will have authority to shut down the boards.

I don't think those times are yet upon us, but they are coming.

When I first posted on this thread I hadn't seen as clearly where we're heading, but I see it with increasing clarity as the days go on. The majority of "Christians" that I know, including some who are very active in the church, will not tolerate any discussion of human sexuality. The devil has done a great job here... homosexuals are kept focussed on their one "big" self defining sin, and are made to think it's not a sin. Because they are convinced of that they won't look at the fact that they are sinners all through, as is every individual, before Christ redeems them.

When I talk to a homosexual I have to steer clear of sexual issues, because they are so well trained to sneer at any comments. I have to persuade them that (like me) they are also liars, theives, blasphemers, murderers at heart. And that therefore they need a saviour.

But it's such hard work... we focus on one sin, and the devil laughs, because in the muddle he has caused souls are being lost.

In the same way as fornication is no longer a sin, adultery is just a fact of life, now homosexuality is seen as "natural." In Germany the government produced a book about how to encourage sexual health in children... advising parents on how to fondle their toddlers privates. I'll find the link...

Paedophilia will be next. I can't believe I'm saying that, but when government agencies provide literature advising parent on how to teach their children to masturbate, we're in times more evil than we can imagine.

Only two years ago I would have said you were all mad to condemn sexual practises that didn't conform to the Bible. We need to concentrate on ALL sin, warn all sinners, regardless of what that sin is... but this has been built up as a special "exempt" sin by modern culture. We're deep behind enemy lines when we fight here... and the sheer prevalence of Christians who say "there is no problem" shows how very much is at stake.

That is utterly shocking what you said about Germany and what they are trying to do. It would seem the whole world has lost its sense of reason.

I agree with you on all the points you made.

I wonder how much further we have to go before it is like the days of Noah. I don't think I want to live in such a wicked world. But I think there will be no shortage of people calling themselves Christian that will have no problem with it.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 15th 2008, 04:08 PM
But I think there will be no shortage of people calling themselves Christian that will have no problem with it.

My former Pastor (a fine, intelligent man of God) once told me, it was fine to look around the world to see the signs of the end times, but to keep a closer eye on the church!

Are we not seeing the very elect being decieved?

daughter
Jun 15th 2008, 04:31 PM
Okay, I've found an English language article about the whole German thing.

Apologies to anyone about the language, and nature of the acts described in this article.

This is the world into which we are now heading.

The whole article can be found at this link.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073008.html



"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father's body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same."

Oma
Jun 15th 2008, 05:26 PM
SICKNING!!
Folks, doesn't all of this tell us that Satan is already loose and the earth is ripe for the Final Judgment?

daughter
Jun 15th 2008, 05:35 PM
It really truly does... I only hope my own Oma (actually my mother in law) isn't too sickened when she realises how horrible the world has become.

Seriously, I think within fifty years there will be justifications for paedophilia. You'll have people saying, "it's normal, natural... these guys aren't predators, they're helping children realise their sexual potential, feel comfortable with their bodies..."

You can already see the seeds of this kind of thinking. The German thing is a really blatant sign, but there are so many subtle signs in society at large, that we don't even see...

Toys for eight year old girls, where you dress them up in bikinis, put on makeup? What on earth happened to playing Mummy and Daddy?

redeemedbyhim
Jun 15th 2008, 05:42 PM
When any society targets the children, you know lawlessness is rampant.
I believe this is a natural (yet sickening!) out crop of abortion on demand.
The child in the womb has been de-humanized for too many years for the born children to be valued and cherished as God intended.

And don't think it isn't coming to a city near you....we see the trend in this nation to follow suit of Europe as we too are progressivley kicking God out of mainstream life. He is banned from the public square and given lip service to by the politicians and sadly, by even those who claim the Name above all Names, Jesus the Christ. :cry:

God give the courage and strenght to all of us who claim His Holy Name, to repent and turn from our wicked ways.

daughter
Jun 15th 2008, 06:34 PM
Anyone reading this thread who is shocked by the German goverment's actions... please read the above posts, compose a short letter, and send it to the following address.

To express concerns to German authorities:

In Canada:

German Embassy
1 Waverley Street
Ottawa, ON, K2P 0T8
Tel.: 613-232-1101 Fax: 613-594-9330
Email: germanembassyottawa@on.aibn.com

In the US:

German Embassy
4645 Reservoir Road NW
Washington, DC, 20007-1998
(202) 298-4000
The embassy can be e-mailed from its website: http://www.globescope.biz/germany/reg/index.cfm (http://www.globescope.biz/germany/reg/index.cfm)

To express concerns to German authorities:

President of the Federal Republic of Germany
11010 Berlin
Germany
Telefon: +49 30 20 00-0
Fax: +49 030 20 00-19 99
E-Mail: Bundespraesident.Horst.Koehler@bpra.bund.de

Chancellor
Angela Merkel
Willy-Brandt-Straße 1
10557 Berlin
Germany
Telefon: +49 180 272-0000
Fax: +49 1888 272-2555
E-Mail: InternetPost@bundesregierung.de


If you get a response, could you post it here?

Thank you!

Revinius
Jun 15th 2008, 07:43 PM
i must say....i am deeply affected by what is occuring there... To think right now kids are getting inadvertantly raped by parents that are being told to do this stuff by their government.... its enough to make you want to puke...

daughter
Jun 16th 2008, 12:04 PM
Since we all feel very strongly on this, can we all write to the people responsible?

I've written to them today, expressing surprise and dismay, but asking for clarification. I'll let you know if I ever get a response.

EarlyCall
Jun 16th 2008, 04:40 PM
My former Pastor (a fine, intelligent man of God) once told me, it was fine to look around the world to see the signs of the end times, but to keep a closer eye on the church!

Are we not seeing the very elect being decieved?


Yes, I believe we are. Your former pastor was really on to it.

But Jesus said there would be a great falling away. He spoke to even the elect being deceived if it were possible.

It seems to me we have two types of Christians now: the kind that are comfortable with the wickedness and those that are troubled by it.

Who is deceived but those that do not know it (but of course). But isn't that scary? Now who is more likely to not be deceived? The Christians that are comfortable with wickedness or the ones that hate it and are so troubled in their spirit by it?

It is not the unsaved that fall away. One cannot fall away from what one has not attained to.

daughter
Jun 16th 2008, 05:06 PM
It is not the unsaved that fall away. One cannot fall away from what one has not attained to.

That's a scary thought... I don't think that you can lose your salvation, but you can certainly dishonour your profession and cause Christ to be blasphemed and mocked by your behaviour.

We should remember our first love, the heights from which we are fallen, repent, and do those things that we first did.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 16th 2008, 05:10 PM
Yes, I believe we are. Your former pastor was really on to it.

But Jesus said there would be a great falling away. He spoke to even the elect being deceived if it were possible.

It seems to me we have two types of Christians now: the kind that are comfortable with the wickedness and those that are troubled by it.

Who is deceived but those that do not know it (but of course). But isn't that scary? Now who is more likely to not be deceived? The Christians that are comfortable with wickedness or the ones that hate it and are so troubled in their spirit by it?

It is not the unsaved that fall away. One cannot fall away from what one has not attained to.

I fear for those who find ways to support wickedness, or worse, accuse the church of "pointing fingers" and "judging". This is what will bring about, one day, this subject being shut down and those who continue to speak out about wickedness facing charges.
I hope the food is good in prison........;)

The church (the Body of Christ) should be united in her efforts to keep at bay evil becoming accepted practices.

daughter
Jun 16th 2008, 07:23 PM
Sehr geehrte Frau Lea,
ich schlage vor, dass Sie sich an die BZgA wenden. Dann können Sie sich die von Ihnen gesuchte Broschüre übersenden lassen und herausfinden, ob die für Sie interessanten Passagen dort stehen.
mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Petra Stöckl ( Kulturreferentin)

That is all the response I got... to check out the passages myself. Not much use.

I'll write a more strongly worded complaint, and see if I get any other response from it. Other than a beaurocratic fob off!

EarlyCall
Jun 16th 2008, 10:45 PM
That's a scary thought... I don't think that you can lose your salvation, but you can certainly dishonour your profession and cause Christ to be blasphemed and mocked by your behaviour.

We should remember our first love, the heights from which we are fallen, repent, and do those things that we first did.

It is scary, frightening. A deceived person is one that doesn't know they are deceived. So how did they become deceived? Why didn't they see it happening?

It really is frightening to me.

EarlyCall
Jun 16th 2008, 10:49 PM
I fear for those who find ways to support wickedness, or worse, accuse the church of "pointing fingers" and "judging". This is what will bring about, one day, this subject being shut down and those who continue to speak out about wickedness facing charges.
I hope the food is good in prison........;)

The church (the Body of Christ) should be united in her efforts to keep at bay evil becoming accepted practices.

Well, we are told that in the end times many would be persecuted by those thinking they were doing right - and that according to God.

I'm convinced this will include Christians once more siding with the world instead of with God. We see the beginnings of that now I think.

I hope the food is good too. I wonder if we can get internet in the slammer.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 16th 2008, 11:24 PM
Well, we are told that in the end times many would be persecuted by those thinking they were doing right - and that according to God.

I'm convinced this will include Christians once more siding with the world instead of with God. We see the beginnings of that now I think.

I'm seeing it too! I'm stunned, but I see it. It was a given not that long ago, but, so many have spent countless hours finding ways for the Word to fit their theology that it's no longer a "no brainer", if you will.


I hope the food is good too. I wonder if we can get internet in the slammer.

I'll just be glad if I get to share the same cell with you....anything else will be icing on the cake! ;)

My husband and I were talking about this yesterday and I told him that it makes me mad (righteous indignation) when someone says I can't believe what the Word says or how I can worship God....I just hope I stay indignate, it'll make the handcuffs that much easier to take! :help:

Gentile
Jun 17th 2008, 07:49 PM
Well first off people are attracted to the opposite sex. The problem is say that person who is homosexual and is a christian and trys to change his/her ways not living a homosexual life, well that is a fine and dandy but that person will be lonely and miserable for the rest of their lives.

I know homosexuals who honestly have zero attraction to the opposite sex and you can't change feelings.

Look at the world today compared to 2500 years ago, homosexuality is a major part in this world now. I believe GOD will forgive someone who is homosexual, i firmly believe that. But only on certain aspects such as what kind of life style are you living as a homosexual. If you are with one partner like a marriage and live a good clean life you will be fine.

The reason christianity is getting a bad name as of lately is we (not all) are extremely judgemental and alot of christians are so closed minded it is pathetic.

Athanasius
Jun 17th 2008, 07:53 PM
Homosexuality played a larger part in antiquity than it does now; we're just finally 'catching up'. And sorry, but being homosexual and living a monogamous, 'loving' relationship is not fine, especially in God's eyes.

Seeker of truth
Jun 17th 2008, 08:09 PM
Well first off people are attracted to the opposite sex. The problem is say that person who is homosexual and is a christian and trys to change his/her ways not living a homosexual life, well that is a fine and dandy but that person will be lonely and miserable for the rest of their lives.

I know homosexuals who honestly have zero attraction to the opposite sex and you can't change feelings.

Look at the world today compared to 2500 years ago, homosexuality is a major part in this world now. I believe GOD will forgive someone who is homosexual, i firmly believe that. But only on certain aspects such as what kind of life style are you living as a homosexual. If you are with one partner like a marriage and live a good clean life you will be fine.

The reason christianity is getting a bad name as of lately is we (not all) are extremely judgemental and alot of christians are so closed minded it is pathetic.

We must be closed minded to sin. God is very clear on what is sin. He called homosexuality a sin. Sin is not ever ok. We are not to pretend sin is ok. We are not to give a message that sin is ok. Our word MUST line up with His or it is not of Him.

Why do some Christians not get that :dunno:

Slug1
Jun 17th 2008, 08:19 PM
Well first off people are attracted to the opposite sex. The problem is say that person who is homosexual and is a christian and trys to change his/her ways not living a homosexual life, well that is a fine and dandy but that person will be lonely and miserable for the rest of their lives.

I know homosexuals who honestly have zero attraction to the opposite sex and you can't change feelings.

Look at the world today compared to 2500 years ago, homosexuality is a major part in this world now. I believe GOD will forgive someone who is homosexual, i firmly believe that. But only on certain aspects such as what kind of life style are you living as a homosexual. If you are with one partner like a marriage and live a good clean life you will be fine.

The reason christianity is getting a bad name as of lately is we (not all) are extremely judgemental and alot of christians are so closed minded it is pathetic.If a murderer repents but still continues to live with a friend who is a murderer... is this repentance real?

Lets drop the lables of homosexual or murderer and term it sinner...

If a sinner repents but still continues to live with a friend who is a sinner... is the repentance real?

A homosexual who is for real and asks for forgiveness and gives "ALL" of this sin to God will be delivered and will not have any homosexual feelings... God will remove the demon causing the person to be homosexual.

If a person who asks for forgiveness but still has all the feelings, still holds onto the sin and didn't place it at the Cross. They may resist the sin but why suffer, give it all to God and be delivered and have that demon removed. Live as God made a male... to be with a female and visaversa.

daughter
Jun 17th 2008, 08:26 PM
Well first off people are attracted to the opposite sex. The problem is say that person who is homosexual and is a christian and trys to change his/her ways not living a homosexual life, well that is a fine and dandy but that person will be lonely and miserable for the rest of their lives.

I know homosexuals who honestly have zero attraction to the opposite sex and you can't change feelings.

Look at the world today compared to 2500 years ago, homosexuality is a major part in this world now. I believe GOD will forgive someone who is homosexual, i firmly believe that. But only on certain aspects such as what kind of life style are you living as a homosexual. If you are with one partner like a marriage and live a good clean life you will be fine.

The reason christianity is getting a bad name as of lately is we (not all) are extremely judgemental and alot of christians are so closed minded it is pathetic.
I don't believe that... In the past I've been in a homosexual relationship, and thought it quite natural.

Since my husband died I've discovered that, at the moment at least, I'm not sexually attracted to anyone of any gender.

But my previous lusts, for both male and female, were not acted on when I was with my husband, because I knew to do so would be a sin. I remember someone telling me it would be "natural" for me to have sex with a woman while I was with Neil, that I couldnt help it, since I was "bisexual."

When I became Christian, it took me by surprise to realise that my desire for anyone other than my husband completely disappeared.

I see that as a gift of God, and I do sympathise with someone who struggles with lust in this area. (Really and truly, I sympathise! I know how horribly humiliating it is, and what it's like to struggle with it.)

But what I'm saying is, I knew when I was a "lesbian", or when I was a "bisexual" that to act on these lusts was wrong.

So I didn't.

Just because we want, or long, to do something, doesn't mean that we have to.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 17th 2008, 11:57 PM
Well first off people are attracted to the opposite sex. The problem is say that person who is homosexual and is a christian and trys to change his/her ways not living a homosexual life, well that is a fine and dandy but that person will be lonely and miserable for the rest of their lives.

I sense little faith on your part that God would not be able to, nor willing to deliver people who are "attracted" to the same sex.
There are many, many Christians who have been delivered of this sin, just as many, many Christians have been delivered of a mirad of other types of sin.


I know homosexuals who honestly have zero attraction to the opposite sex and you can't change feelings.

All things are possible WITH God.


Look at the world today compared to 2500 years ago, homosexuality is a major part in this world now. I believe GOD will forgive someone who is homosexual, i firmly believe that. But only on certain aspects such as what kind of life style are you living as a homosexual. If you are with one partner like a marriage and live a good clean life you will be fine.

So, it only takes "living a good clean life" to be fine. Then whatever did Jesus go to the Cross for? What other sins can we indulge in as long as every other area of our lives are "good and clean"?
Can I steal as long as I tithe on that money?


The reason christianity is getting a bad name as of lately is we (not all) are extremely judgemental and alot of christians are so closed minded it is pathetic.

The reason Christianity is getting a bad name is because Christianity is a light into the darkness and the darkness does not like the light.
Our minds should remain "open" but open to the Word and teachings of our Lord, not the world.
We are in the world but should not be of it.

I hope you will pray about this and search God's perfect Word for the truth, because God will hold us all accountable on what we support, thru word and deed.

EarlyCall
Jun 18th 2008, 12:59 AM
Well first off people are attracted to the opposite sex. The problem is say that person who is homosexual and is a christian and trys to change his/her ways not living a homosexual life, well that is a fine and dandy but that person will be lonely and miserable for the rest of their lives.

I know homosexuals who honestly have zero attraction to the opposite sex and you can't change feelings.

Look at the world today compared to 2500 years ago, homosexuality is a major part in this world now. I believe GOD will forgive someone who is homosexual, i firmly believe that. But only on certain aspects such as what kind of life style are you living as a homosexual. If you are with one partner like a marriage and live a good clean life you will be fine.

The reason christianity is getting a bad name as of lately is we (not all) are extremely judgemental and alot of christians are so closed minded it is pathetic.

Now I know where Paul says hom*se*uals will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. What I haven't ever found is anything supporting your opinion. Could you give scripture to that effect please. I didn't see Paul mention any exemptions. Maybe I missed it. Why don't you point it out to me. That would great.

If you can't do that, should I consider what you've said here to be merely your own opinion, albeit contrary to God? And if that is the case, then that would be pathetic.

Ecumaniac
Jun 18th 2008, 01:26 AM
Homosexual activities are condemned in scripture. Homosexuality as a constitutional state of sexual attraction to the same sex, however, is not mentioned, and if it is considered a sin then it's quite remarkable. To my knowledge that would make it the only recognised sin which does not rely upon the sinner actually doing anything to be guilty of it.

No matter how often I hear it, I always find it incredible when someone says that one cannot be a "gay Christian". A celibate Christian does not magically become a non-Christian just because of one adjective, "gay," which doesn't imply anything beyond a predisposition to a certain category of sinful activities. I notice many threads on these boards in which Christians seek advice for addictive habits—be they pornography, alcoholism or any number of other problems—and no one ever implies that these people are automatically not Christian because they struggle with temptation. Why are these temptations not inimical to being Christian, yet homosexuality is an absolute bar?

Athanasius
Jun 18th 2008, 01:43 AM
Homosexual activities are condemned in scripture. Homosexuality as a constitutional state of sexual attraction to the same sex, however, is not mentioned, and if it is considered a sin then it's quite remarkable. To my knowledge that would make it the only recognised sin which does not rely upon the sinner actually doing anything to be guilty of it.

I'm going to put myself out there and say that you can't abstain from homosexual behavior if you've got the inclination (which can be 'cured', to use a bad word). Whether that be through physical action or thought life--you can't escape from it without fleeing from it.



No matter how often I hear it, I always find it incredible when someone says that one cannot be a "gay Christian". A celibate Christian does not magically become a non-Christian just because of one adjective, "gay," which doesn't imply anything beyond a predisposition to a certain category of sinful activities. I notice many threads on these boards in which Christians seek advice for addictive habits—be they pornography, alcoholism or any number of other problems—and no one ever implies that these people are automatically not Christian because they struggle with temptation. Why are these temptations not inimical to being Christian, yet homosexuality is an absolute bar?

Well the difference is this; fleeing from sin and intentionally continuing in sin. Those who are addicted to pornography and alcoholism usually aren't screaming, "I was born this way"--they are fleeing from that sin; even the alcoholic. When homosexuality and Christianity is brought up you usually here, "It's a gene!" "I was born this way," "I can't help it!". The former are trying to flee from sin, the latter, usually, aren't.

There is no such thing as a Christian who is addicted to pornography... And willfully stays addicted to pornography--this is a bond they wish to break, even if they slip up. There is no such thing as a Christian who is an alcoholic... And willfully remains an alcoholic--this is a bond they wish to break. No person who really loves God is going to go against, and continually go against, His commandments.

The same goes for homosexuality. There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian who remains homosexual... It is an act they will flee from, a bond they wish to break, even if they slip up.

So yeah, if you're into any of the above and calling yourself Christian I would seriously be worried. We aren't commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling for no good reason. I don't imagine any Christian who would call themselves a Christian and add on, "Oh, but I'm bound by this sin... and I want to remain bound by it".

markinro
Jun 18th 2008, 03:51 AM
Homosexual activities are condemned in scripture. Homosexuality as a constitutional state of sexual attraction to the same sex, however, is not mentioned, and if it is considered a sin then it's quite remarkable. To my knowledge that would make it the only recognised sin which does not rely upon the sinner actually doing anything to be guilty of it.

No matter how often I hear it, I always find it incredible when someone says that one cannot be a "gay Christian". A celibate Christian does not magically become a non-Christian just because of one adjective, "gay," which doesn't imply anything beyond a predisposition to a certain category of sinful activities. I notice many threads on these boards in which Christians seek advice for addictive habits—be they pornography, alcoholism or any number of other problems—and no one ever implies that these people are automatically not Christian because they struggle with temptation. Why are these temptations not inimical to being Christian, yet homosexuality is an absolute bar?

I think I have mentioned this on the board prior but I cannot find the post.

Why would someone after being saved continue to identify with their OLD dead self ? Should we also apply this to adultery ? Murder ? Other criminal activities ? We are a NEW creation. Old things are passed away (i.e. dead). I'm ok with a homosexual who has repented and struggles with temptation from the flesh. We all deal with temptation - probably more so after receiving Christ in our lives. I did terrible things before and the LAST thing I want is identify with all that nonsense. The only reason I can see for this compromise with homosexuality is that the world has embraced the homosexual as normal behaviour - and we all know. Friendship with the world is emnity (sp?) with God.

Ecumaniac
Jun 18th 2008, 10:08 AM
I'm going to put myself out there and say that you can't abstain from homosexual behavior if you've got the inclination (which can be 'cured', to use a bad word). Whether that be through physical action or thought life--you can't escape from it without fleeing from it.

I know at least one friend who does precisely that—abstains from homosexual behaviour, despite having the inclination.


Those who are addicted to pornography and alcoholism usually aren't screaming, "I was born this way"--they are fleeing from that sin; even the alcoholic. When homosexuality and Christianity is brought up you usually here, "It's a gene!" "I was born this way," "I can't help it!". The former are trying to flee from sin, the latter, usually, aren't.




There is no such thing as a Christian who is an alcoholic... And willfully remains an alcoholic--this is a bond they wish to break.

This raises an interesting point. It is widely acknowledged by most organisations working to assist alcoholics that there is no such thing as an "ex-alcoholic". Rather, one is continually referred to as a "recovering alcoholic". Similarly, psychologists don't usually talk about schizophrenia being cured—it is simply "in remission". In other words, the temptation (or, in the latter case, disorder) can be mitigated, but it is dangerous to assume that it has simply gone away forever. This careful terminology is justified by the ever-present risk of a relapse.

Why, therefore, would God only accept an "ex-homosexual"? I don't see any biblical reason to believe that one must escape even the potential of homosexual temptation in order to be considered a Christian. Rather, it seems that homosexuals are often called to a higher standard than non-homosexuals, in that they are expected to completely and irrefutably overcome a constitutional state in order to be accepted into God's family.

I respectfully submit that this is extremely unfair and damaging to those individuals who struggle, and will continue to struggle, with the enormous burden of an attraction to the same-sex which they believe is contrary to God's will.


No person who really loves God is going to go against, and continually go against, His commandments.

Don't Christians still sin against God?


The same goes for homosexuality. There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian who remains homosexual... It is an act they will flee from, a bond they wish to break, even if they slip up.[quote]

The problem is that homosexuality is interchangeably used to describe both homosexual actions, and homosexual orientation. As I said, the former can be justifiably condemned based on biblical evidence, but the latter is simply an exclusive predisposition to certain temptations which, to my knowledge, is not described in explicit terms anywhere in the Bible.

[quote]I don't imagine any Christian who would call themselves a Christian and add on, "Oh, but I'm bound by this sin... and I want to remain bound by it".

"I am a homosexual" does not imply "…and I would like to continue being one." One can acknowledge that one has a homosexual orientation while wishing it to be otherwise.

Seeker of truth
Jun 18th 2008, 01:48 PM
"I am a homosexual" does not imply "…and I would like to continue being one." One can acknowledge that one has a homosexual orientation while wishing it to be otherwise.

I disagree. It implies one does not trust in Him enough to be delivered of homosexual desires. If you (general you) are homosexual and consider yourself to be a Christian I suggest you get with God. Repent and ask to be delivered of unnatural desires.

A Christian should never refer to himself as a homosexual.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 18th 2008, 01:58 PM
I know at least one friend who does precisely that—abstains from homosexual behaviour, despite having the inclination.

Is your friend called to celibacy? I admire men and women who are called, such as Paul and are able to abstain. But, why would your friend wish to identify, or does he, with homosexuality?
When we've been delivered of any sinful behavior, shouldn't we have put that in our past as God has? He says we've been forgiven and those sins never to be remembered against us again.


This raises an interesting point. It is widely acknowledged by most organisations working to assist alcoholics that there is no such thing as an "ex-alcoholic". Rather, one is continually referred to as a "recovering alcoholic".
Similarly, psychologists don't usually talk about schizophrenia being cured—it is simply "in remission". In other words, the temptation (or, in the latter case, disorder) can be mitigated, but it is dangerous to assume that it has simply gone away forever. This careful terminology is justified by the ever-present risk of a relapse.

When God delivers us, He delivers us....not partially, not hopefully, but totally. Do old things pass away and all things become new, or not?
Isn't it more "dangerous" to assume God is not able to deliver us of the old self and make all things new? I would rather believe that should be the starting place and believe God is able to complete that which He first began in us.
We all have the flesh to struggle with, but do we identify, for example, with being a liar? Who says I'm a recovering liar? Paul would not even "identify" with what he struggled with as a thorn in the flesh, to this day we all have been left to speculate.
Paul's admonition was to identify with Christ and Him crucified and to present our bodies a living sacrifice.


Why, therefore, would God only accept an "ex-homosexual"? I don't see any biblical reason to believe that one must escape even the potential of homosexual temptation in order to be considered a Christian. Rather, it seems that homosexuals are often called to a higher standard than non-homosexuals, in that they are expected to completely and irrefutably overcome a constitutional state in order to be accepted into God's family.

We come to God "as is", no doubt. But, should we not allow God to mold and shape us according to His perfect will? God purposely stated which sins will keep us from eternal life with him, not even the "effeminate" will enter in.


I respectfully submit that this is extremely unfair and damaging to those individuals who struggle, and will continue to struggle, with the enormous burden of an attraction to the same-sex which they believe is contrary to God's will.

If they believe this is contrary to God's will then there is great hope the struggle can end. How do you explain those who have overcome this sin?
Are we not to be overcomers? We overcome by the word of our testimony and the Blood of the Lamb.


Don't Christians still sin against God?

Yes, no doubt. But, if we confess our sins He is faithful to cleanse us.


The problem is that homosexuality is interchangeably used to describe both homosexual actions, and homosexual orientation. As I said, the former can be justifiably condemned based on biblical evidence, but the latter is simply an exclusive predisposition to certain temptations which, to my knowledge, is not described in explicit terms anywhere in the Bible.
"I am a homosexual" does not imply "…and I would like to continue being one." One can acknowledge that one has a homosexual orientation while wishing it to be otherwise.

But, why would one want to identify with anything God has clearly said is sin? If all things have become new, no matter the sin, then we are given a clean slate to move forward in Godly pursuits.

John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousnes.

Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become the servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

KingFisher
Jun 18th 2008, 02:27 PM
Can someone who is H0m0$exu@l change (overcome sin)?
I see this as the main objection some of you are raising.

So who did Christ die for?
Sinners. Christ said just as those that are well have no need for a doctor…

He came to call sinners to repentance.

Sinners to repentance…

I'll repeat it one more time.

Sinners to repentance...

If we say that h0m0$exu@lity isn't a sin then we stand against the scriptures.
If we say that it is a sin but one that they have no control over then we negate
the gospel message.

What is the gospel message?
We no longer have to live in sin, eternally separated from God.
You know the "Good news"

I see what your saying as negating the Gospel.

This is the way that it comes across to me:
"Christ can't help you…but it's ok."
"Your stuck this way and can't change…but it's ok."
"Christ the "deliverer" can't deliver form this one…but it's ok."
"H0m0$exu@lity is a sin but you were born that way so…oh well have fun. Lead a good
life…I'm sure in the end it will be ok for you."

No, Christ when confronting sinners said…"Go and sin no more"

Make sense?
KingFisher

Athanasius
Jun 18th 2008, 02:36 PM
I know at least one friend who does precisely that—abstains from homosexual behaviour, despite having the inclination.

And why not go the step further?



This raises an interesting point. It is widely acknowledged by most organisations working to assist alcoholics that there is no such thing as an "ex-alcoholic". Rather, one is continually referred to as a "recovering alcoholic". Similarly, psychologists don't usually talk about schizophrenia being cured—it is simply "in remission". In other words, the temptation (or, in the latter case, disorder) can be mitigated, but it is dangerous to assume that it has simply gone away forever. This careful terminology is justified by the ever-present risk of a relapse.

Why, therefore, would God only accept an "ex-homosexual"? I don't see any biblical reason to believe that one must escape even the potential of homosexual temptation in order to be considered a Christian. Rather, it seems that homosexuals are often called to a higher standard than non-homosexuals, in that they are expected to completely and irrefutably overcome a constitutional state in order to be accepted into God's family.

I respectfully submit that this is extremely unfair and damaging to those individuals who struggle, and will continue to struggle, with the enormous burden of an attraction to the same-sex which they believe is contrary to God's will.

It's sin, of course. That is why one must flee from it. Not engaging in the behavior is only half the battle.



Don't Christians still sin against God?

The question, as I said previously, inention.



The problem is that homosexuality is interchangeably used to describe both homosexual actions, and homosexual orientation. As I said, the former can be justifiably condemned based on biblical evidence, but the latter is simply an exclusive predisposition to certain temptations which, to my knowledge, is not described in explicit terms anywhere in the Bible.

And as I said in my last response, I don't believe you can have a homosexual orientation, distance yourself from the act and separate yourself from the sin of homosexuality. There's always going to be some part of you that's pulling you in that direction.



"I am a homosexual" does not imply "…and I would like to continue being one." One can acknowledge that one has a homosexual orientation while wishing it to be otherwise.

Then we agree--they must change.

Ecumaniac
Jun 18th 2008, 03:53 PM
And why not go the step further?

*sigh* Most of the responses to what I've said above can be answered by looking at case studies like this.

He is still homosexual because after ten years of intense prayer and trying to pretend that it might be possible to stop feeling any sexual attraction to men, and instead find himself attracted to women, his sexual orientation has not changed one iota.

He believes that homosexual sex is sinful. He has hoped for literally a decade that God would step in and make it so that he would no longer be tempted by same-sex attraction. He hasn't had sex. He doesn't masturbate. And, despite all this, not one thing has changed.

Maybe some people are born with a flexible enough sexuality that they can change to be heterosexual. Maybe you, yourself, believe that you could make yourself homosexual if you wanted to. But some people don't get to choose their sexual orientation, any more than you get to choose if you have sickle-cell leukaemia. Everyone has their own cross to bear—everyone—and I don't see how it is anyone else's place to say that someone is "not Christian" just because they don't understand the nature of that person's cross.

That's what homosexuality is: a cross. If it's not your cross, fine, and if you're lucky enough that God once took this cross away from you, that's great; but other people are not so lucky, and they need to bear this cross throughout their entire lives. It absolutely does not help when people, without any understanding of their predicament, decide to grab the cross and pull down hard. "You're not Christian!" "You need to change first!" "Being gay is a sin!" How does this help? Is shouldering one's cross a sin? He asked Jesus for help, but Jesus hasn't simply lifted it away. It seems unbearably presumptuous to assume that this must be some fault of his, and not part of God's plan for him—indeed, to do so for all Christians who struggle specifically with such temptations.

Ecumaniac
Jun 18th 2008, 04:32 PM
It implies one does not trust in Him enough to be delivered of homosexual desires. If you (general you) are homosexual and consider yourself to be a Christian I suggest you get with God. Repent and ask to be delivered of unnatural desires.

I am reminded, strongly, of the Book of Job, particularly the response of Job's friends when confronted with his misfortunes. His friends were adamant that Job's tribulations were a punishment from God for unnamed sins, of which he must repent to find deliverance. In fact, Job was innocent, and refused to curse God even while he wished that he was dead. This was eventually affirmed by God, who remonstrated his friends for their presumption and vilification of an innocent man.

So it is that we should be extremely cautious of assuming that one who is burdened somehow must be guilty of some sin or lack. God tests us all differently, and it is not for us to decide that those tested in certain ways must lack spiritual calibre or sincerity. We should support our neighbours in times of trial, not run them into the ground with speculation about their sinfulness.


And please, please, be careful with your words on this topic! Sexuality is confusing enough. Young people kill themselves over speculation like this. The next time you write something, imagine that it's not me reading it. Rather, imagine that it's a young, gay Christian—scared, alone, confused—who is looking for advice or guidance. When you say, "a gay Christian is an oxymoron," actually think about what it means to them: that every second of their lives that they are still gay (that is, still experience attraction towards their own sex) they are constantly sinning, constantly removed from God. And please, just ask yourself: what are you really doing for their relationship with God? Are you bringing them closer to Him, or pushing them further to the brink of destruction?

I'm not saying that you cannot believe that gay sex is sinful. I'm saying that being gay doesn't mean having gay sex or lustful thoughts; it just means a disposition towards such things in the same way as heterosexuals have a disposition towards heterosexual adultery and lust. Furthermore, I hope we can be mindful of who might be reading topics like these, and how easily reckless words might injure them.

Seeker of truth
Jun 18th 2008, 06:41 PM
I am reminded, strongly, of the Book of Job, particularly the response of Job's friends when confronted with his misfortunes. His friends were adamant that Job's tribulations were a punishment from God for unnamed sins, of which he must repent to find deliverance. In fact, Job was innocent, and refused to curse God even while he wished that he was dead. This was eventually affirmed by God, who remonstrated his friends for their presumption and vilification of an innocent man.

So it is that we should be extremely cautious of assuming that one who is burdened somehow must be guilty of some sin or lack. God tests us all differently, and it is not for us to decide that those tested in certain ways must lack spiritual calibre or sincerity. We should support our neighbours in times of trial, not run them into the ground with speculation about their sinfulness.


And please, please, be careful with your words on this topic! Sexuality is confusing enough. Young people kill themselves over speculation like this. The next time you write something, imagine that it's not me reading it. Rather, imagine that it's a young, gay Christian—scared, alone, confused—who is looking for advice or guidance. When you say, "a gay Christian is an oxymoron," actually think about what it means to them: that every second of their lives that they are still gay (that is, still experience attraction towards their own sex) they are constantly sinning, constantly removed from God. And please, just ask yourself: what are you really doing for their relationship with God? Are you bringing them closer to Him, or pushing them further to the brink of destruction?

I'm not saying that you cannot believe that gay sex is sinful. I'm saying that being gay doesn't mean having gay sex or lustful thoughts; it just means a disposition towards such things in the same way as heterosexuals have a disposition towards heterosexual adultery and lust. Furthermore, I hope we can be mindful of who might be reading topics like these, and how easily reckless words might injure them.

Gay sex is sinful. If one feels they are gay they have not been delivered. Homosexuality is not an inborn condition. One is not born homosexual.

The enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy. He is a liar. Christians know this yet they fall for his lies time and time again.

The Lord will deliver from the belief one is gay. All is necessary is to ask and then believe one has been delivered.

God is not a man that He would lie.

Athanasius
Jun 18th 2008, 07:36 PM
*sigh* Most of the responses to what I've said above can be answered by looking at case studies like this.

He is still homosexual because after ten years of intense prayer and trying to pretend that it might be possible to stop feeling any sexual attraction to men, and instead find himself attracted to women, his sexual orientation has not changed one iota.


And you know what? Do a little something more than prayer, even if he already has.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 18th 2008, 08:16 PM
*sigh* Most of the responses to what I've said above can be answered by looking at case studies like this.

How about answering the response with Scripture? What does the Word of God say?


He is still homosexual because after ten years of intense prayer and trying to pretend that it might be possible to stop feeling any sexual attraction to men, and instead find himself attracted to women, his sexual orientation has not changed one iota.

He believes that homosexual sex is sinful. He has hoped for literally a decade that God would step in and make it so that he would no longer be tempted by same-sex attraction. He hasn't had sex. He doesn't masturbate. And, despite all this, not one thing has changed.

But, one thing has changed, has it not? He does not act on his attractions, right?


Maybe some people are born with a flexible enough sexuality that they can change to be heterosexual. Maybe you, yourself, believe that you could make yourself homosexual if you wanted to. But some people don't get to choose their sexual orientation, any more than you get to choose if you have sickle-cell leukaemia. Everyone has their own cross to bear—everyone—and I don't see how it is anyone else's place to say that someone is "not Christian" just because they don't understand the nature of that person's cross.

Forgive me if this seems harsh, but perhaps it's the above kind of thinking that is keeping this friend and others like him still in the mindset that he is homosexual.
We're not born homosexual and we don't contract it like a disease. Satan temps us and twists the Truth of God's Word. If he can convince us there's nothing we can do about our state, then he's won some level of victory. But, satan is a liar and the father of lies.
Jesus came to give us life and that more abundently, not leave us in a state of confusion and defeat.


That's what homosexuality is: a cross. If it's not your cross, fine, and if you're lucky enough that God once took this cross away from you, that's great; but other people are not so lucky, and they need to bear this cross throughout their entire lives. It absolutely does not help when people, without any understanding of their predicament, decide to grab the cross and pull down hard. "You're not Christian!" "You need to change first!" "Being gay is a sin!" How does this help? Is shouldering one's cross a sin? He asked Jesus for help, but Jesus hasn't simply lifted it away. It seems unbearably presumptuous to assume that this must be some fault of his, and not part of God's plan for him—indeed, to do so for all Christians who struggle specifically with such temptations.

Where does the Word say that homosexuality is a cross to bear? What does the Word say? Do you think that we are not left with choices? Did God give us a free will?
If I'm a theif, is that God's plan for me or for anyone? Or is it His plan that I come out from among them and be seperate? Is it not God's plan that I be born again?
No one is saying that we shouldn't come to God just as we are. Where the difficulty comes in to play is when we have so many others that are trying to justify this lifestyle or any sinful lifestyle.

If someone is reading this who has given their heart to God out of the homosexual lifestyle, they should hear from us that it is not impossible to change, it is not impossible to lay aside the sins that so easily beset us.
And that God loves them and will deliver them of that sin just as readily as any other sin. And they need NOT to identify with homosexuality for another minute. The Word says there is power in the tongue, the power of life and death. Start speaking life and mingle all you do with faith. If God has saved you, He has the power to change you, but He will not over ride your free will.

With God ALL things are possible.

markinro
Jun 19th 2008, 02:28 PM
I know at least one friend who does precisely that—abstains from homosexual behaviour, despite having the inclination.







This raises an interesting point. It is widely acknowledged by most organisations working to assist alcoholics that there is no such thing as an "ex-alcoholic". Rather, one is continually referred to as a "recovering alcoholic". Similarly, psychologists don't usually talk about schizophrenia being cured—it is simply "in remission". In other words, the temptation (or, in the latter case, disorder) can be mitigated, but it is dangerous to assume that it has simply gone away forever. This careful terminology is justified by the ever-present risk of a relapse.

Why, therefore, would God only accept an "ex-homosexual"? I don't see any biblical reason to believe that one must escape even the potential of homosexual temptation in order to be considered a Christian. Rather, it seems that homosexuals are often called to a higher standard than non-homosexuals, in that they are expected to completely and irrefutably overcome a constitutional state in order to be accepted into God's family.

I respectfully submit that this is extremely unfair and damaging to those individuals who struggle, and will continue to struggle, with the enormous burden of an attraction to the same-sex which they believe is contrary to God's will.



Don't Christians still sin against God?

[quote]The same goes for homosexuality. There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian who remains homosexual... It is an act they will flee from, a bond they wish to break, even if they slip up.[quote]

The problem is that homosexuality is interchangeably used to describe both homosexual actions, and homosexual orientation. As I said, the former can be justifiably condemned based on biblical evidence, but the latter is simply an exclusive predisposition to certain temptations which, to my knowledge, is not described in explicit terms anywhere in the Bible.



"I am a homosexual" does not imply "…and I would like to continue being one." One can acknowledge that one has a homosexual orientation while wishing it to be otherwise.

Using that logic, a christian can have a murderous orientation while wishing it to be otherwise. As christians, we are ALL called to a higher standard. Predisposition to a temptation - this is not what COR 10:13 says. This is the abortion issue all over again. The world says its ok but God says its not. Mans law cannot supercede God's will.

ServantofTruth
Jun 19th 2008, 10:53 PM
I voted yes you can be a gay christian. I admit i would find the person very differcult to be around, but that is my problem, not their's.

If the person accepts Jesus Christ like i do, accepts the bible 100% like i do. They are a Christian obviously!

I continue to sin each day. I will till the day i die. Each day i hope i commit less and at any given time, i am working in different areas. 10 years ago, i hadn't read the whole bible, so my understanding was poor, even when i had read it ALL, my understanding was quite poor! Now i've read it a few times, my understanding is only begining to grow - much room for improvement. :pray:

I just can't promote a sin that i find distasteful, how ever hard i try and want to, above my own SECRET sin - that only God and i know about. I may look much better on the outside, be able to help others newer on the path to find stability and grow, but i'm an unfinished product of God! The Holy Spirit is still working and he has MUCH to do.

The Homosexual sinner, if in thought, word and deed, they have not beaten this sin - is too like ME.

It takes one to know one, the saying goes. I am a sinner, may i never forget it! Servant of Truth.

Athanasius
Jun 19th 2008, 10:59 PM
Go and sin no more...

redeemedbyhim
Jun 19th 2008, 11:09 PM
I voted yes you can be a gay christian. I admit i would find the person very differcult to be around, but that is my problem, not their's.

If the person accepts Jesus Christ like i do, accepts the bible 100% like i do. They are a Christian obviously!

I continue to sin each day. I will till the day i die. Each day i hope i commit less and at any given time, i am working in different areas. 10 years ago, i hadn't read the whole bible, so my understanding was poor, even when i had read it ALL, my understanding was quite poor! Now i've read it a few times, my understanding is only begining to grow - much room for improvement. :pray:

I just can't promote a sin that i find distasteful, how ever hard i try and want to, above my own SECRET sin - that only God and i know about. I may look much better on the outside, be able to help others newer on the path to find stability and grow, but i'm an unfinished product of God! The Holy Spirit is still working and he has MUCH to do.

The Homosexual sinner, if in thought, word and deed, they have not beaten this sin - is too like ME.

It takes one to know one, the saying goes. I am a sinner, may i never forget it! Servant of Truth.

Do you willfully continue in sin?
Can you willfully continue to rob banks, shop lift, cheat on your spouse and still be a Christian?
Is that your lifestyle? Or is your lifestyle striving each day to improve and letting go of those sins that so easily beset us?

Do you identify with who you WERE or who you ARE in Christ?

LadyinWaiting
Jun 20th 2008, 12:43 AM
However, there are Christians who are tempted into adultery. Does this mean they can no longer be Christians since they committed (often multiple times) this sin?

By the way, there is sufficient evidence to prove that there are hormonal imbalances that lead a male to be more effiminate and for a woman to be more masculine (the balance of testosterone is this cause in most cases). However, that is a condition that can be corrected. Some choose not to correct it and embrace it as that being the way they were "wired" or what not. In my opinion, it's akin to manic-depression (bipolarism) where some embrace it and refuse treatment whereas most will seek aid in some way.

Ex. My nephew was very ill at birth and nearly died. His body went into survival mode and that kept the blood from making it to his "lower region". This left him sterile. As a result, his body had no need (due to hormonal responses) to produce appropriate testosterone. He's very slender, has a tendancy to gravitate towards "girly" manners of walking and running. May claim he's a gay child. He simply is a young boy (5th grade) who has very little testosterone.

Along the same lines, we all have instincts (to yell, scream, engage in unsavory behaviors) because of our flesh. That initial gut instinct is not a sin. Acting on it and allowing it to take root - that is sinful. So, I do think it is possible for a person to feel the initial "pull" towards those of the same gender. However, if they resist that urge and fight from allowing those thoughts to take root...then they have not sinned.

Ecumaniac
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:48 AM
This conversation has been at the back of my mind, niggling like a splinter under the skin. The basic reason it frustrates me is that most of the people making bold, extra-biblical condemnations of celibate homosexuals are not, and never will be, homosexual. They are people who have no idea about this particular cross, except that they somehow think you can't be a Christian if you carry it. It also deeply concerns me that straight Christians are so obsessed with homosexuality, for reasons I will explain shortly. First, however, some build-up.

Would you say that one cannot be a Christian while one still struggles with, say, depression? Does it matter if depression is something you are born with, or something you learn? Is depression easier to "cure" than homosexuality, or harder?

I have a friend who is very deeply depressed, and a few others who are also depressed to various degrees. From what they have confided in me, I can almost certainly say that depression often poses a far greater obstacle to someone's relationship with God than homosexuality. Statements such as, "God doesn't love me," "The world would be a better place if I were dead," "I can never go to Heaven," "Christ can't possibly save someone like me"… are not atypical from seriously depressed individuals. At least homosexuals can still believe in Christ, still believe in His saving power, still feel God's love for His creation!

And yet, I have never heard a Christian say that "a depressed Christian is an oxymoron" or "nobody is born depressed." Nor have I heard that they should stop calling themselves depressed, lest they "identify with who [they were]" instead of "who [they are] in Christ[.]" It's simply not done to say such things. Yet one can say this about someone who is homosexual—that is, continues to experience sexual attraction exclusively towards the same sex? How is this fair? How is this justified? Where does the Word say that Christians can be depressed, but not homosexual?

Perhaps the reason we seldom hear it said is because we know that it is not true, and also that it will likely drive depressed people to suicide. Yet so many Christians appear to think it is OK to take the opposite position for homosexuality, and drive a deplorable number of gay teenagers over the edge into suicide.

Take two Christians. The first is homosexual, but does not want to be. She flees from sexual temptation and tries her hardest to be pure in thought and deed. The second is depressed, but does not want to be. He flees from bad influences and tries his hardest to think and act carefully. Why is the gay girl going to hell while the depressed boy is saved? How do you justify this scripturally?



What follows is not directed at any individual on this forum, but rather describes my fears of a social movement I've been following with increasing alarm in the past few years.

Using the tools of the black civil rights movement, gay individuals have gained an unprecedented degree of public respect and sympathy, as well as various legal protections in certain jurisdictions. This has, in the eyes of many Christians, made them a force to be reckoned with. Many Christians now march in protest of gay rights, even Christians who have never struggled with homosexual temptations. They send their children to camps to "cure" them of homosexuality, and sometimes throw them out of their homes and onto the streets. They fight every pro-gay initiative tooth and nail, and cry that not only is homosexual copulation a sin, but that even the constitutional state of being homosexual is sinful. One may struggle with a variety of sinful desires and still be a Christian, but while one remains attracted towards one's own sex, one cannot possibly be saved. In support of this zeal, the scholars who produced the New International Version—by some lavish miracle of freehanded translation—decided that they had found an exact equivalent to the modern English construction "homosexual" in the ancient letters of Paul! Truly, opposing homosexuality is becoming a preoccupation for many Christians.

Fortunately, while the "gay agenda" itself is a fearsome political opponent, gay individuals themselves pose much less trouble, especially when they are young or depressed (and if they're not depressed yet, there's plenty of opprobrium to start them on the way). They are insecure, afraid, and many already hate themselves; in short, they are easy targets. It is so easy to make homosexual youths hate themselves. Already, more than half of them have considered suicide, and maybe a fifth have gone a good way to attempting it. They get bullied at school, and fear revulsion from their parents. Unfortunately, some of them are getting uppity about it, and beginning to think that it's OK to be gay—so any attempt to "indoctrinate" children to respect or love their homosexual neighbours meets with strong resistance. Christian children are even encouraged to support the culture of homophobia early with institutions such as the "Day of Truth."

My point is, Christians hate homosexuality to the point of distraction. It's easy to hate, especially when one will never be personally afflicted by homosexual temptation. And so it is that I fear that homophobia is dangerously close to being a false idol, a distraction from our personal relationship with God. Homophobia allows Christians to forget about their own sins and focus on the imagined sins of other people. I'm not saying, and haven't said, that people shouldn't consider homosexual activities to be sinful. I'm saying that in the minds of many Christians, homosexuality itself has become a unique and unpardonable state of sinfulness despite a poverty of Biblical support, and that this is a dangerous distraction from the serious business of love and salvation.

LadyinWaiting
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:02 AM
Ecumaniac...many people confuse "homosexuality" with homosexual thoughts. It would behoove us to then clarify our positions. "Homosexuality" is the state of being a homosexual. In today's society, if you're homosexual, you engage in the behaviors of an intimate nature with those of the same gender you are naturally.

The reason why most people say there is no such thing as a "homosexual Christian" is because of the fact that they are aligning themselves with the fact that it's "okay". A person who may have feelings of attraction for someone of the same gender but fights them and leads a pure life is not likely to call or label themselves a homosexual. They are likely to avoid labels and discussion beyond trying to live a pure life.

I don't honestly know anyone who condemns a person for thinking of a sin then choosing not to do it. That's what the Holy Spirit in us does. If you think of lying and that voice reminds you it's wrong...you didn't sin. If you have the brief glimpse of a scantily clad woman or man, but you do not take the second look or fall into temptation...then you did not sin. Most people I know can separate that. Those who can't, as you said, need to look at their own spirits and examine their feelings and thoughts in light of the Scripture. Sin is a sin, but how will they know that unless moved to conviction under the Holy Spirit which they are not indwelled with until they are first a child of the Living God?

While I do agree that many people put too much weight on this and not enough on the rest of the Biblical commandments we are to hold in just as much regard, I also do not want my eventual children to be taught that it is okay and normal to experiment with their sexuality and that behaving as a homosexual (engaging in homosexual activities) is actually beneficial for discovering who you are and what you prefer and a natural part of developing your gender and sexual identity.

So, I will sign the petitions. I will fight for what I believe is morally right based on the Bible.

However, I will not neglect that God loves the person and that Christ died for that person. I may be the only Bible they'll read, the only truth someone sees, and I'd rather focus on their status in the Lamb's Book of Life before I tackle any discussion about specific sins or courses of actions. Once they accept Christ, the Holy Spirit will begin to reveal itself and deal with much of that.

redeemedbyhim
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:23 AM
Ecumaniac...many people confuse "homosexuality" with homosexual thoughts. It would behoove us to then clarify our positions. "Homosexuality" is the state of being a homosexual. In today's society, if you're homosexual, you engage in the behaviors of an intimate nature with those of the same gender you are naturally.

The reason why most people say there is no such thing as a "homosexual Christian" is because of the fact that they are aligning themselves with the fact that it's "okay". A person who may have feelings of attraction for someone of the same gender but fights them and leads a pure life is not likely to call or label themselves a homosexual. They are likely to avoid labels and discussion beyond trying to live a pure life.

I don't honestly know anyone who condemns a person for thinking of a sin then choosing not to do it. That's what the Holy Spirit in us does. If you think of lying and that voice reminds you it's wrong...you didn't sin. If you have the brief glimpse of a scantily clad woman or man, but you do not take the second look or fall into temptation...then you did not sin. Most people I know can separate that. Those who can't, as you said, need to look at their own spirits and examine their feelings and thoughts in light of the Scripture. Sin is a sin, but how will they know that unless moved to conviction under the Holy Spirit which they are not indwelled with until they are first a child of the Living God?

While I do agree that many people put too much weight on this and not enough on the rest of the Biblical commandments we are to hold in just as much regard, I also do not want my eventual children to be taught that it is okay and normal to experiment with their sexuality and that behaving as a homosexual (engaging in homosexual activities) is actually beneficial for discovering who you are and what you prefer and a natural part of developing your gender and sexual identity.

So, I will sign the petitions. I will fight for what I believe is morally right based on the Bible.

However, I will not neglect that God loves the person and that Christ died for that person. I may be the only Bible they'll read, the only truth someone sees, and I'd rather focus on their status in the Lamb's Book of Life before I tackle any discussion about specific sins or courses of actions. Once they accept Christ, the Holy Spirit will begin to reveal itself and deal with much of that.

This was very well said.
I had to step away from the computer after reading Ecumanic's post and was thinking of what I was going to respond with, you said it for me and I'm sure others as well.

While I was thinking I was reminded of something that my sister experienced with her daughter 9 years ago, which at the time my niece was 9 years old. My neice brought home some literature from school, in it was information on what was being taught that year in her elementary school regarding sex ed.

In that information were statements such as this, "It's normal and natural to want to kiss another girl if you are a girl. So, you should not feel embrassed to "explore" these feelings. Now, that was said to a 9 year old girl by the teachers and other "authorities" of her school. That is endocrination. These are the things that Christians are feeling overwhelmed with these "last days". God will hold the parents responsible for how we teach our children. It's enough to struggle with teaching our children right from wrong, but when people in position of "authority" are bombarding our children with ideas that make homosexual behavior "normal", that makes it much more difficult.

Now, I dare say that any Christian would be just as over-whelmed if it was being taught that it was normal to want to explore the idea of using drugs or drinking.
It isn't the "sinful" behavior in and of itself, it's the idea that any sinful behavior is being lifted up as "normal and natural".

IF our children are then so indocrinated with this kind of propaganda, shouldn't we then take a stand? If our children one day decide that what is being lifted up as normal and natural is right, how much more difficult will it be to teach them the ways of God?

I think there's much more at stake here then just what appears on the surface.
The enemy is coming in like a flood, he does'nt care if it's homosexual behavior or cheating, or stealing, he'll use whatever he's been able to sell as a lie to the public to catch God's creation in a trap of sin.

Personally, I believe we must cry out against the enemy, while not attacking individuals (God forbid). And be careful to understand what Isaiah said, "woe to those who call evil good and good evil."

tango
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:53 PM
I guess it would depend on the definition of a "gay Christian". I don't dispute for a minute that homosexuality is a sin but struggle to see how a Christian who struggles with homosexual urges is any less of a Christian than a heterosexual Christian who struggles with lustful urges.

I would say that living in an active homosexual relationship would count as open defiance of God's requirements, as would living in a sexually active heterosexual relationship prior to being married.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 5th 2008, 06:33 AM
Due to the obscurity of the choices, I went with the first one. It is possible for a Christian to feel attraction to his same gender and give into a temptation to lust or participate in unnatural acts. Though he has sinned, he is still a Christian.

It is not possible, however, to live a lifestyle of homosexuality or deny it as a sin (while engaging in it) and be a Christian.