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FieryProphet25
Mar 4th 2008, 02:43 AM
1 Corinthians 13:8 says that "charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease, wether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part and we prophecy in part10 but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.....

Now there are only 2 things that are perfect in christianity. Jesus and his word. But which is verse 10 reffering to? I believe it is the bible. It uses the word THAT, THAT is a thing not a person, just as the gifts are a thing and shall be done away.

The gifts were given to the apostles to prove their commision by god, and to build the foundation of the church. Gods word is the foundation of the church. Once that was accomplished, there were no need for gifts. At least those gifts. Paul clarifies this in the last verse of chapter 13, where he lists the gifts that remain, " and now abideth faith, hope,charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 4th 2008, 02:55 AM
1 Corinthians 13:8 says that "charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease, wether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part and we prophecy in part10 but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.....

Now there are only 2 things that are perfect in christianity. Jesus and his word. But which is verse 10 reffering to? I believe it is the bible. It uses the word THAT, THAT is a thing not a person, just as the gifts are a thing and shall be done away.

The gifts were given to the apostles to prove their commision by god, and to build the foundation of the church. Gods word is the foundation of the church. Once that was accomplished, there were no need for gifts. At least those gifts. Paul clarifies this in the last verse of chapter 13, where he lists the gifts that remain, " and now abideth faith, hope,charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Welcome to the forum:pp

Let's me guess:hmm:
That "Bible" that is perfect is the KJV:hmm:

ravi4u2
Mar 4th 2008, 03:13 AM
But which is verse 10 reffering to? I believe it is the bible. It uses the word THAT, THAT is a thing not a person, just as the gifts are a thing and shall be done away.The 'that' there is LOVE. When we all come to realise the complete and perfect love of God, all the others will become redundant. As I understand, there is none on this end eternity, who is yet to grasp the length, the breadth nor the height of his LOVE.

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 4th 2008, 03:36 AM
1 Corinthians 13:8 says that "charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease, wether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part and we prophecy in part10 but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.....

Now there are only 2 things that are perfect in christianity. Jesus and his word. But which is verse 10 reffering to? I believe it is the bible. It uses the word THAT, THAT is a thing not a person, just as the gifts are a thing and shall be done away.

The gifts were given to the apostles to prove their commision by god, and to build the foundation of the church. Gods word is the foundation of the church. Once that was accomplished, there were no need for gifts. At least those gifts. Paul clarifies this in the last verse of chapter 13, where he lists the gifts that remain, " and now abideth faith, hope,charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

No, tongues are biblical

9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Scripture breakdown for 1COR 13:9-12
Christ’s ascention AD 30 Letter to the church at Corinth AD 55
o 25 years later

Paul was already an apostle ministering to the Gentiles but yet he says “now I know in part” and “For now we”

“When that which is perfect is come that which is in part (imperfect) will be done away”. The Christian will never be perfect on this Earth. We strive to be holy as Christ was holy but all will fall short of perfection. Only after the Christian is in Heaven with God will we be made perfect.

“Glass” represents our future. “Darkly” means we can see somewhat but it is not crystal clear. If we stay the course and finish the race then at the end all things will be revealed “face to face” with God.

Paul says “now I know in part but then shall I know (fully) even as also I am known”. The Christian is the same as Paul. We only know in part when we are here on Earth but when we are with God in Heaven we will know fully. As the scripture says “To be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord”

Questions?

If the first coming of Christ or the completed Bible is what verse 10 is talking about then why does the apostle Paul write verse 9 and the last part of verse 12?

Why does verse 12 say “For now we” (“for now” refers to a temporary situation and “we” refers to Paul and other Christians) if “that which is perfect is come” is Christ’s first coming or the completed Bible and Paul wrote this after Christ came in the flesh and before the Bible was completed?

FieryProphet25
Mar 4th 2008, 04:19 AM
oops,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

FieryProphet25
Mar 4th 2008, 04:22 AM
The 'that' there is LOVE. When we all come to realise the complete and perfect love of God, all the others will become redundant. As I understand, there is none on this end eternity, who is yet to grasp the length, the breadth nor the height of his LOVE.

THAT cannot refer to love..do this, replace THAT with love. This is how it reads. "But when LOVE which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" This doesnt make sense...are you saying that at that time the lords perfect love didnt already exist? Because of jesus perfect love for us, he laid down his life. His perfect love already existed, he didnt PARTLY love us. The word perfect in this verse has a neuter meaning. Meaning non masculine, non feminine. Thus it must be speaking of a thing. We see through a glass darkly because of the uncompleted word. at that time the word was not complete. But when the word was completed, we have gods word, and the bible said that jesus is the word, so when the bible was completed, we were able to see"face to face" with the lord through his word. Look at the last 7 verses at the end of mark, it is the commision of the apostles. In this, it states that believers at that time will prophecy, speak in tongues and also be immune to poison and dangerous snakes, now if tongues still existed, then wouldnt being immune to poison still exist? and the answer is NO. IF you eat poison, and not seek medical attention, you will die.

ravi4u2
Mar 4th 2008, 04:59 AM
THAT cannot refer to love..do this, replace THAT with love. This is how it reads. "But when LOVE which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" This doesnt make sense...are you saying that at that time the lords perfect love didnt already exist? Because of jesus perfect love for us, he laid down his life. His perfect love already existed, he didnt PARTLY love us. The word perfect in this verse has a neuter meaning. Meaning non masculine, non feminine. Thus it must be speaking of a thing. We see through a glass darkly because of the uncompleted word. at that time the word was not complete. But when the word was completed, we have gods word, and the bible said that jesus is the word, so when the bible was completed, we were able to see"face to face" with the lord through his word. Look at the last 7 verses at the end of mark, it is the commision of the apostles. In this, it states that believers at that time will prophecy, speak in tongues and also be immune to poison and dangerous snakes, now if tongues still existed, then wouldnt being immune to poison still exist? and the answer is NO. IF you eat poison, and not seek medical attention, you will die.It makes perfect sense because the whole chapter is about love. it is not talking about the Bible at all. Try reading it this way, "But when perfect love is come (into me)..." And the "unto me" is not a careless insertion with disregard to context because in verse 11, Paul says, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things". Which is a very personal application.

Brother Mark
Mar 4th 2008, 05:03 AM
1 Corinthians 13:8 says that "charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease, wether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part and we prophecy in part10 but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.....

Now there are only 2 things that are perfect in christianity. Jesus and his word. But which is verse 10 reffering to? I believe it is the bible. It uses the word THAT, THAT is a thing not a person, just as the gifts are a thing and shall be done away.

The gifts were given to the apostles to prove their commision by god, and to build the foundation of the church. Gods word is the foundation of the church. Once that was accomplished, there were no need for gifts. At least those gifts. Paul clarifies this in the last verse of chapter 13, where he lists the gifts that remain, " and now abideth faith, hope,charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Well, let's look at the rest of that scripture.

1 Cor 13:8-12
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.
NASB

Do you know fully as you have been fully known? Even the hairs of your head are numbered and known. When that which is perfect has come, you will know as well as you are known. Then the part will be done away because it is no longer needed and we will no longer see through a glass darkly.

So, if you/we know as well as you/we are known, then I suppose tongues have ceased.

ravi4u2
Mar 4th 2008, 05:12 AM
So, if you/we know as well as you/we are known, then I suppose tongues have ceased.That was beautiful...

VerticalReality
Mar 4th 2008, 01:36 PM
That which is perfect cannot be the bible because . . .

1) Paul didn't see the completed bible, but he stated in verse 12 that he would see the "that which is perfect".

2) Paul makes clear that the "that which is perfect" is something on a personal level when he begins speaking about how we look in a mirror dimly. When you look in a mirror you see a reflection. You don't see a bible. What Paul is saying is that right now you see a dim or dark reflection of what you are being transformed into. When we are fully transformed into His image, just as 2 Corinthians 3:18 proclaims, it is then that we will know as we are known. It is then that the "that which is perfect" has come. The "that which is perfect" is our transformation from corruptible to incorruptible.



2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 4th 2008, 01:38 PM
That which is perfect cannot be the bible because . . .

1) Paul didn't see the completed bible, but he stated in verse 12 that he would see the "that which is perfect".

2) Paul makes clear that the "that which is perfect" is something on a personal level when he begins speaking about how we look in a mirror dimly. When you look in a mirror you see a reflection. You don't see a bible. What Paul is saying is that right now you see a dim or dark reflection of what you are being transformed into. When we are fully transformed into His image, just as 2 Corinthians 3:18 proclaims, it is then that we will know as we are known. It is then that the "that which is perfect" has come. The "that which is perfect" is our transformation from corruptible to incorruptible.

Good post...well said!!!;)

IBWatching
Mar 4th 2008, 05:02 PM
That which is perfect cannot be the bible because . . .

1) Paul didn't see the completed bible, but he stated in verse 12 that he would see the "that which is perfect".

2) Paul makes clear that the "that which is perfect" is something on a personal level when he begins speaking about how we look in a mirror dimly. When you look in a mirror you see a reflection. You don't see a bible. What Paul is saying is that right now you see a dim or dark reflection of what you are being transformed into. When we are fully transformed into His image, just as 2 Corinthians 3:18 proclaims, it is then that we will know as we are known. It is then that the "that which is perfect" has come. The "that which is perfect" is our transformation from corruptible to incorruptible.

Correct. I wish more Christians who want to know the Truth abut this issue would understand this. It is perfectly clear from the text:


1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

All the text says is that our present condition of partial knowledge will end when we are perfected. It speaks of the Perfection of the Church.

Tongues didn't end because the Bible got completed. They aren't being used today as Acts 2 describes them because that is the Spirit's Will. He is the one Who says when the True Gift of Tongues will get used, not a church service bulletin. They are for unbelievers, as a sign of the Truth. And they require an interpretor if they are used in a local assembly. Any violation of these rules gives us the right to ignore those supposedly using them. Just as Paul said.

godsgirl
Mar 4th 2008, 05:04 PM
Actually, speaking in tongues is the sign the Bible gives that the baptism in the Spirit has occured in our lives....

Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, and Acts 19:6-all show this to be the case.

There are at least 2 different manifestations-or uses for speaking in tongues.

The wonderful experience of praying in tongues is available to all Christians, but some have a special public ministry gift of tongues.

For futher comparison, here is a chart summarizing and contrasting the different aspects of tongues:

Public Gift of Tongues

Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
To be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4-5))
A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A22))
Not given to all believers (1 Corinthians 12:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+12%3A30)))


Personal Prayer Tongue
Spoken privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A2))
No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A28))
Edifies the individual believer (1 Corinthians 14:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4))
Can be manifested when no unbelievers are present (Acts 10:46 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+10%3A46); 19:6)
Should be desired and practiced by all Christians Mark 16:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+16%3A17); 1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5); Ephesians 6:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+6%3A18); Jude 20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+20) ).



Those who say they are "unbiblical" don't know their Bible very well.

Buck shot
Mar 4th 2008, 05:31 PM
Howdy FieryProphet25, Welcome aboard!
I hope you have some thick skin! Those of us that take the Bible as literal and perfect get some responces that make us wonder if we are wasting our time (sometimes) but try to remember that LOVE is what endures. :kiss:
These folks that you are reading from do care or they would not be here!

Has speaking in tongues, the gift of prophecy, and human knowledge been done away yet?
I know personally I have never seen either of the first two used scripturally in my life time. What I do see every day is human knowledge trying to disprove the scripture or misinterppreting the Word. Will they all vanish away at the exact same time... I cannot tell. God knows.

Yes, 2 Peter 2:20, I do believe the KJV is the perfect word of God. But you already knew I believe that, I think. I still love ya brother!:D


1 Cor 13:8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

ravi4u2
Mar 4th 2008, 05:47 PM
I do believe the KJV is the perfect word of God.Did you mean to say the perfect English translation of the word of God?

Buck shot
Mar 4th 2008, 05:50 PM
Did you mean to say the perfect English translation of the word of God?

Yes, sorry about the misunderstanding. English is the only language I am comfortable with. I do reseach words in Greek and Hebrew but am not a scholar in these languages as the interpreters of the KJV was.

IBWatching
Mar 4th 2008, 06:46 PM
Actually, speaking in tongues is the sign the Bible gives that the baptism in the Spirit has occured in our lives....

Actually they aren't:


1 Corinthians 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

What you have said goes directly against what Paul says.

FieryProphet25
Mar 4th 2008, 07:38 PM
Correct. I wish more Christians who want to know the Truth abut this issue would understand this. It is perfectly clear from the text:



All the text says is that our present condition of partial knowledge will end when we are perfected. It speaks of the Perfection of the Church.

Tongues didn't end because the Bible got completed. They aren't being used today as Acts 2 describes them because that is the Spirit's Will. He is the one Who says when the True Gift of Tongues will get used, not a church service bulletin. They are for unbelievers, as a sign of the Truth. And they require an interpretor if they are used in a local assembly. Any violation of these rules gives us the right to ignore those supposedly using them. Just as Paul said.

But the Foundation of the church IS the bible. Without it, there is nothing for the church to stand on. So that text is reffering to the bible, do a greek word study on the word THAT and PERFECT, for verse 13:8-9. you will see that both are neuter, non male non female, there is not personal reference in these words.

godsgirl
Mar 4th 2008, 08:48 PM
Actually they aren't:



What you have said goes directly against what Paul says.

No, what I've said goes directly along with what Paul said-in Pauls letter he was writing "concerning Spiritual gifts"--of course, not all who are baptised in the Spirit and speak in tongues as a direct result of that -are used in the gift of tongues-the gifts-again according to Paul are for "when you come together". Praying in tongues is for private prayer.
And according to the scriptural examples we've been given-tongues accompany the baptism in the Spirit..see Acts 2:4, Acts 19:6, Acts 10:46.

graceforme
Mar 4th 2008, 09:03 PM
I'm just curious to know what you think - if you believe that Mark 16:17 is instruction that tongues is for today, then what do you do with the rest of that same passage? "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Have you ever handled serpents, or drank poison? If you lay hands on someone and they are not healed ..... why?

You really can't apply part of this passage without applying all of it. I'm just wondering what you do with the rest of it.

You are blessed - and a blessing.

SunnyE
Mar 4th 2008, 09:19 PM
During Russian communism Christians were persecuted. One man was asked if he believed that verse about swallowing poison and nothing would happen. He said he believed it. He asked to see his family once more and it was granted. When he came back a dog was brought in and fed a few drops of poison and it dropped dead. It was then given to him-
and nothing happened. He didn't die that day.

If you meet someone who doesn't speak your language God would help you to speak so the other person would understand. There was a missionary in Africa talking to a large crowd. A translator interpreted everything. After a few minutes the translator told him to keep speaking because they all understood what he was saying. That's speaking in tongues - none of this gibberish that no one understands.

About 20 years ago a missionary was saying that she witnessed when a dead child was prayed over and came to life again.

These things do happen today - unfortunately we don't hear enough of these uplifting stories.

Buck shot
Mar 4th 2008, 09:31 PM
There was a missionary in Africa talking to a large crowd. A translator interpreted everything. After a few minutes the translator told him to keep speaking because they all understood what he was saying. That's speaking in tongues - none of this gibberish that no one understands.



Where can I find this documented? I am just questioning you. I would like to read of the account.

Brother Mark
Mar 4th 2008, 09:32 PM
I'm just curious to know what you think - if you believe that Mark 16:17 is instruction that tongues is for today, then what do you do with the rest of that same passage? "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Have you ever handled serpents, or drank poison? If you lay hands on someone and they are not healed ..... why?

You really can't apply part of this passage without applying all of it. I'm just wondering what you do with the rest of it.

You are blessed - and a blessing.

What did Jesus call serpents? That might give some insight into the rest of that passage.

SunnyE
Mar 4th 2008, 09:46 PM
Buckshot hope this helps

Language that is understood.Let us now continue with the definition of tongues. The Bible says, "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." (II Corinthians 13:1) It has been demonstrated that tongues means languages. These terms can be used interchangeably -- tongues means languages, languages means tongues. Also, it has been stated that the apostles understood what they were saying when they spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost. There is absolutely no indication that the apostles did NOT understand what they were saying when they spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost, or when they spoke at any time. Tongues, therefore, is a language that is understood by the speaker. If this is correct, then we should be able to find other scriptures in the Bible where the word "tongue(s)" refers to a "language" that is understood by the speaker. If this is correct, then we should be able to find other scriptures where the word "tongue(s)" is used and the speaker understands what he or she is saying. If speaking in tongues (languages) involves saying words that are not understood by the speaker, then we should be able to find examples of such in the scriptures. We should be able to find "two or three witnesses" of one or the other.

Brother Mark
Mar 4th 2008, 09:50 PM
Where can I find this documented? I am just questioning you. I would like to read of the account.

I have friends that have been involved in similar situations. A friend of mine that was a southern baptist preacher was preaching in south Florida. After the service a lady came up to him and was speaking to him excitedly in Spanish. He didn't understand a word. Years later, somehow they got in touch again and she shared with him, in English this time that she got saved that day. She heard the entire message in Spanish. What's interesting is at the time my friend preached the sermon, he didn't believe in tongues. God didn't let that stand in the way of saving the Spanish lady though. He just laughed when he told that story! He has no gone on to be with the Father, but I still remember him fondly.

SunnyE
Mar 4th 2008, 09:50 PM
Two pastors I know were on holidays and went to a nearby church. During the service there was speaking in tongues. The thing was they understood what these people were saying - they were cursing and swearing in Russian and Czechoslovakian.

godsgirl
Mar 4th 2008, 10:04 PM
I'm just curious to know what you think - if you believe that Mark 16:17 is instruction that tongues is for today, then what do you do with the rest of that same passage? "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Have you ever handled serpents, or drank poison? If you lay hands on someone and they are not healed ..... why?

You really can't apply part of this passage without applying all of it. I'm just wondering what you do with the rest of it.

You are blessed - and a blessing.


Hi,
First of all-I do not get my theology from that verse-there is much controversy if it should even be in the Bible-I'm not sure if it should or shouldn't, but I do believe that this verse does not say-ok you guys-go out and handle snakes---it does say, plainly "they will speak in tongues". Paul spoke in tongues quite a bit in his personal life-and wished for the church to do likewise-but he did not go out and handle that snake that bit him-it was an accident-and God protected him. As far as healing goes-God does heal today, but not always-that's why it's called a "miracle"

godsgirl
Mar 4th 2008, 10:06 PM
Two pastors I know were on holidays and went to a nearby church. During the service there was speaking in tongues. The thing was they understood what these people were saying - they were cursing and swearing in Russian and Czechoslovakian.

That story has been around forever-I really don't believe it=just one of those "I heard" ones--and besides that-the Bible says, "no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed".

godsgirl
Mar 4th 2008, 10:08 PM
Buckshot hope this helps

Language that is understood.Let us now continue with the definition of tongues. The Bible says, "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." (II Corinthians 13:1) It has been demonstrated that tongues means languages. These terms can be used interchangeably -- tongues means languages, languages means tongues. Also, it has been stated that the apostles understood what they were saying when they spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost. There is absolutely no indication that the apostles did NOT understand what they were saying when they spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost, or when they spoke at any time. Tongues, therefore, is a language that is understood by the speaker. If this is correct, then we should be able to find other scriptures in the Bible where the word "tongue(s)" refers to a "language" that is understood by the speaker. If this is correct, then we should be able to find other scriptures where the word "tongue(s)" is used and the speaker understands what he or she is saying. If speaking in tongues (languages) involves saying words that are not understood by the speaker, then we should be able to find examples of such in the scriptures. We should be able to find "two or three witnesses" of one or the other.


Ummm, the Bible disagrees with you---"he who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God indeed no one understands" 1Corinthians 14:2

And Paul said, "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful". 1 Corinthians 14:14

graceforme
Mar 4th 2008, 10:08 PM
Hi,
First of all-I do not get my theology from that verse-there is much controversy if it should even be in the Bible-I'm not sure if it should or shouldn't, but I do believe that this verse does not say-ok you guys-go out and handle snakes---it does say, plainly "they will speak in tongues". Paul spoke in tongues quite a bit in his personal life-and wished for the church to do likewise-but he did not go out and handle that snake that bit him-it was an accident-and God protected him. As far as healing goes-God does heal today, but not always-that's why it's called a "miracle"


Actually the verse does say "They SHALL take up serpents. And it also says "They SHALL lay hands on the sick and and they SHALL be healed."

But, thanks for your thoughts. Most churches who teach tongues for today will use part of the passage and then either ignore the rest or attempt to explain it away such as you did. I was just curious, that's all.

God Bless.

Brother Mark
Mar 4th 2008, 10:09 PM
Actually the verse does say "They SHALL take up serpents. And it also says "They SHALL lay hands on the sick and and they SHALL be healed."

But, thanks for your thoughts. Most churches who teach tongues for today will use part of the passage and then either ignore the rest or attempt to explain it away such as you did. I was just curious, that's all.

God Bless.

Who was the first serpent? I have no issues with that verse at all. No one ever handled snakes in scripture so Jesus must be talking about something he did handle. Of course, we know Paul had a snake latch on to him and he didn't die.

graceforme
Mar 4th 2008, 10:12 PM
Who was the first serpent? I have no issues with that verse at all.


I guess the first serpent was Satan. He appears early in Genesis. But what is your point? The serpent in the garden was in time past. What relationship does it have with the passage in Mark?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Brother Mark
Mar 4th 2008, 10:12 PM
I guess the first serpent was Satan. He appears early in Genesis. But what is your point? The serpent in the garden was in time past. What relationship does it have with the passage in Mark?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Who did Jesus call serpents throughout the gospels?

graceforme
Mar 4th 2008, 10:13 PM
Who did Jesus call serpents throughout the gospels?


He called the Pharisees and Sadducees a "brood of vipers."

godsgirl
Mar 4th 2008, 10:16 PM
Some people do take up snakes-

http://www.soundportraits.org/images/they_shall_take_up_serpents-1.jpg

Brother Mark
Mar 4th 2008, 10:17 PM
He called the Pharisees and Sadducees a "brood of vipers."

Right. He did that over and over again. Also, Satan is continuously referred to as a serpent in scripture. Jesus even said "be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves". The Holy Spirit fell on Jesus like a dove and gentleness is a fruit of the Spirit. Snakes aren't that wise in the natural. Personally, I think he is referring to something with a little more brain power than a snake.

In other words, why do we think that passage in Mark is referring to literal snakes when no where else in Jesus ministry he referred to literal snakes?

Brother Mark
Mar 4th 2008, 10:17 PM
Some people do take up snakes-

http://www.soundportraits.org/images/they_shall_take_up_serpents-1.jpg


And some of them get bitten and sick, etc. I think they miss the point too.

VerticalReality
Mar 4th 2008, 10:20 PM
But the Foundation of the church IS the bible. Without it, there is nothing for the church to stand on. So that text is reffering to the bible, do a greek word study on the word THAT and PERFECT, for verse 13:8-9. you will see that both are neuter, non male non female, there is not personal reference in these words.

Why would this term not be neutral? It's an adjective. The "that which is perfect" is describing something else. It's not a noun. It's describing the noun. This argument is used countless times, and it just doesn't hold up.

graceforme
Mar 4th 2008, 10:23 PM
Some people do take up snakes-

http://www.soundportraits.org/images/they_shall_take_up_serpents-1.jpg


I'll check that one out when I have more time. Thanks.

graceforme
Mar 4th 2008, 10:24 PM
Right. He did that over and over again. Also, Satan is continuously referred to as a serpent in scripture. Jesus even said "be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves". The Holy Spirit fell on Jesus like a dove and gentleness is a fruit of the Spirit. Snakes aren't that wise in the natural. Personally, I think he is referring to something with a little more brain power than a snake.

In other words, why do we think that passage in Mark is referring to literal snakes when no where else in Jesus ministry he referred to literal snakes?


Well, Mark that's an interesting thought. I'll have to do some study on that one.

Thanks and God bless.

weshine4Him
Mar 4th 2008, 10:48 PM
How is it that we can think that the gift of tongues has passed away? It is one of the gifts. Many would have you believe that the gift of healing is no longer needed and available. How about any of the other gifts? We are born into the Kingdom of God and we live in full power right now. We entered everlasting life right now. It doesn't start when we die. The church of today should walk in the full power of God, but they don't. Church leaders put way to many limits on God. Some say it's from the devil. I saw all the scripture in this thread supporting tongues. I guess you can either believe it and walk in the power or don't believe it, and that's OK too. It sounds like you do not speak in tongues or you would know first hand what difference it makes. It is a perfect love language between you and your Savior. When spoken in public it is to lift up and edify those in around you. It is still a gift and it hasn't died. My best guess is, it might be to your benefit to go straight to God and see what He tells you. It's nice to read the threads here and make friends but if the final truth is what you are looking for it is best found with God.
Much Love and Many Blessings

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 4th 2008, 11:15 PM
Howdy FieryProphet25, Welcome aboard!
I hope you have some thick skin! Those of us that take the Bible as literal and perfect get some responces that make us wonder if we are wasting our time (sometimes) but try to remember that LOVE is what endures. :kiss:
These folks that you are reading from do care or they would not be here!

Has speaking in tongues, the gift of prophecy, and human knowledge been done away yet?
I know personally I have never seen either of the first two used scripturally in my life time. What I do see every day is human knowledge trying to disprove the scripture or misinterppreting the Word. Will they all vanish away at the exact same time... I cannot tell. God knows.

Yes, 2 Peter 2:20, I do believe the KJV is the perfect word of God. But you already knew I believe that, I think. I still love ya brother!:D


1 Cor 13:8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Yes, I agree that the KJV is the perfect word of God just as much as the NIV is:lol::lol::lol:

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 4th 2008, 11:18 PM
Yes, sorry about the misunderstanding. English is the only language I am comfortable with. I do reseach words in Greek and Hebrew but am not a scholar in these languages as the interpreters of the KJV was.

You mean to tell me the Apostles didn't use the KJV...come on get out of here:rofl::rofl::rofl:

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 4th 2008, 11:19 PM
Actually they aren't:



What you have said goes directly against what Paul says.

Very true statement!!

IBWatching
Mar 5th 2008, 01:12 AM
But the Foundation of the church IS the bible. Without it, there is nothing for the church to stand on. So that text is reffering to the bible, do a greek word study on the word THAT and PERFECT, for verse 13:8-9. you will see that both are neuter, non male non female, there is not personal reference in these words.

I don't argue on that basis, but on the basis of context. Paul has been talking about the Church all through chapter 12 and 13. It is their perfection that is being referred to....in context. To apply it to anything else is eisegesis, not exegesis.

Brother Mark
Mar 5th 2008, 01:30 AM
I don't argue on that basis, but on the basis of context. Paul has been talking about the Church all through chapter 12 and 13. It is their perfection that is being referred to....in context. To apply it to anything else is eisegesis, not exegesis.

Does the church know as well as she is known?

IBWatching
Mar 5th 2008, 01:31 AM
No, what I've said goes directly along with what Paul said...

Everything you've said in your post is from what those people who say they can speak in tongues will say to justify it.

I am looking at a whole bigger picture here than you are. When Paul says in chapter 14 that those who pray in a tongue are speaking to God and not men, Paul was not giving the church at Corinth a "new" kind of spiritual toy to play with. He was talking to a church where:

- People developed sects based on who water baptized them

- One guy was sleeping with his stepmother

- some members were suing each other in public court

- some members were abusing the Lord's Supper to the degree that God gave them sickness, some unto death

- some members thought that children born of mixed spiritual parents were cursed

- some members were led astray by emotions, thinking they were using spiritual gifts (12:2)

- some members didn't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Believe me, your total outlook on chapter 14 is wrong for 2 reasons:

1. Because you do not take into consideration what other problems the church had.

2. You fail to take into consideration all the aspects of what happens when the true gift of tongues is enabled by the Holy Spirit.

As long as you persist in these positions, you will not be able to see what/how the true gift of tongues were used and what Paul was actually talking about in chapter 14.

IBWatching
Mar 5th 2008, 01:32 AM
Does the church know as well as she is known?

We all know in part. That was the whole point, Until we are perfected, we can only know in part.

Brother Mark
Mar 5th 2008, 01:35 AM
We all know in part. That was the whole point, Until we are perfected, we can only know in part.

Right. And until we are perfected, tongues will continue.

IBWatching
Mar 5th 2008, 01:41 AM
Right. And until we are perfected, tongues will continue.

Only as the Spirit wills. Not as church service bulletins (or theology) dictate.

Brother Mark
Mar 5th 2008, 01:41 AM
Only as the Spirit wills. Not as church service bulletins dictate.

I have no issue with that statement at all. And only to through those to whom he has given the gift.

IBWatching
Mar 5th 2008, 01:56 AM
I have no issue with that statement at all. And only to through those to whom he has given the gift.

And I don't argue your point...as it may apply. Just so you can see where my theology of the Holy Spirit's work comes from, and so you might see the bigger picture as I see it, from Jesus' own words:


John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose {it} to you.

This is why Paul said tongues are a sign to the unbeliever. The Holy Spirit's purpose during this time of the Church to to draw attention to Jesus Christ and Glorify Him. The use of gifts to "edify" (build up) the body does not mean just our personal growth, but the addition of new members. There is only one name under heaven which can save. We can develop all the "theologies" of the Holy Spirit we want, but be assured that if the Holy Spirit is working, the end result will be to draw attention to Jesus Christ, not ourselves.

Brother Mark
Mar 5th 2008, 02:04 AM
And I don't argue your point...as it may apply. Just so you can see where my theology of the Holy Spirit's work comes from, and so you might see the bigger picture as I see it, from Jesus' own words:



This is why Paul said tongues are a sign to the unbeliever. The Holy Spirit's purpose during this time of the Church to to draw attention to Jesus Christ and Glorify Him. The use of gifts to "edify" (build up) the body does not mean just our personal growth, but the addition of new members. There is only one name under heaven which can save. We can develop all the "theologies" of the Holy Spirit we want, but be assured that if the Holy Spirit is working, the end result will be to draw attention to Jesus Christ, not ourselves.

No problem with that either. Just some folks use that Cor passage to say tongues has passed as the OP did. But it doesn't fit the passage.

No doubt, the Holy Spirit will point to Christ and he will comfort us.

redeemedbyhim
Mar 5th 2008, 02:16 AM
How is it that we can think that the gift of tongues has passed away? It is one of the gifts. Many would have you believe that the gift of healing is no longer needed and available. How about any of the other gifts? We are born into the Kingdom of God and we live in full power right now. We entered everlasting life right now. It doesn't start when we die. The church of today should walk in the full power of God, but they don't. Church leaders put way to many limits on God. Some say it's from the devil. I saw all the scripture in this thread supporting tongues. I guess you can either believe it and walk in the power or don't believe it, and that's OK too. It sounds like you do not speak in tongues or you would know first hand what difference it makes. It is a perfect love language between you and your Savior. When spoken in public it is to lift up and edify those in around you. It is still a gift and it hasn't died. My best guess is, it might be to your benefit to go straight to God and see what He tells you. It's nice to read the threads here and make friends but if the final truth is what you are looking for it is best found with God.
Much Love and Many Blessings

Looks like we're both pretty new here, this my only second post as well.

I agree with your post and wanted to share my experience. I was raised Jewish and became a Christian when I was finally told by a friend that as a Jew I could be and that He loved me too. It came as a welcomed surprise.
I soon gave my heart to Him and have never been the same since! A few days after giving my heart to Him I attended a church service for the first time. It was wonderful, the music, the praise, the worship, I was caught up in it all.
Now, remember I was a brand new Christian who was raised Jewish...had no clue about the Holy Spirit never mind the baptizim in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in "other tongues"....never, never heard of either.
Back to the worship...I was doing just that in this service, I was raising my hands and singing along and telling the Lord how greateful I was to know Him...and boom....began speaking in other tongues! It was a wonderful experience (still is) but one that I had to ask my friend what just happened? She explained, I believed and still do.
So, where does that leave the question is tongues for today? My experience says a resounding yes.
I may not be a biblical scholar, well the truth is I'm not, but no one will ever convince me that tongues isn't for today.
I do understand the difference of speaking in tongues while praying as Paul did and the "gift" of the tongues and interpatation, God has used me for both many times over the years since that day back in 1970.
I believe God longs to fill all His children with His Spirit, He did me and I wasn't even asking...didn't know any better.
Thanks for listening...many blessings.

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 5th 2008, 02:20 AM
Looks like we're both pretty new here, this my only second post as well.

I agree with your post and wanted to share my experience. I was raised Jewish and became a Christian when I was finally told by a friend that as a Jew I could be and that He loved me too. It came as a welcomed surprise.
I soon gave my heart to Him and have never been the same since! A few days after giving my heart to Him I attended a church service for the first time. It was wonderful, the music, the praise, the worship, I was caught up in it all.
Now, remember I was a brand new Christian who was raised Jewish...had no clue about the Holy Spirit never mind the baptizim in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in "other tongues"....never, never heard of either.
Back to the worship...I was doing just that in this service, I was raising my hands and singing along and telling the Lord how greateful I was to know Him...and boom....began speaking in other tongues! It was a wonderful experience (still is) but one that I had to ask my friend what just happened? She explained, I believed and still do.
So, where does that leave the question is tongues for today? My experience says a resounding yes.
I may not be a biblical scholar, well the truth is I'm not, but no one will ever convince me that tongues isn't for today.
I do understand the difference of speaking in tongues while praying as Paul did and the "gift" of the tongues and interpatation, God has used me for both many times over the years since that day back in 1970.
I believe God longs to fill all His children with His Spirit, He did me and I wasn't even asking...didn't know any better.
Thanks for listening...many blessings.

To God be the glory:pp:pp:pp

redeemedbyhim
Mar 5th 2008, 02:27 AM
To God be the glory:pp:pp:pp

Yes indeed, to God alone be the Glory...always! He's so amazing and I love Him so much and fully realize I'm only able to do that because He first loved me!

weshine4Him
Mar 5th 2008, 03:20 AM
I may not be a biblical scholar, well the truth is I'm not,

Believe it or not, the New Testament was written in common language Greek. The scholars didn't know for sure what language it was because they didn't use common Greek. They spoke the 'High' Language. The Bible was written so the common man could read and understand.
I am learning much about the Holy Spirit right now. I was in a great many churches all of my life but I never knew I could have Jesus as my own. I always thought I had to go through someone else. Now I know I am worthy to go before Him and meet with Him anywhere, anytime. How amazing.
I loved your testimony. I have a family member that did our family tree and we found out we have Jewish roots. In 1883 for some reason the last name was changed to sound more German and the family moved. That was as far back as we could go for there were many churches that were burned and there are no more records. It was an honor to know my heritage for the first time. I always thought I was Italian, German, and Irish. Then I find after half of my life here that I have Jewish ancestry. So now I just call myself a Christian. I am no longer a resident here anyway. I am an heir of Heaven and I am just passin through. I hope to make a difference for God's Kingdom but I am spending this year getting my foundation right. I have been looking for God in the churches and have not found Him. God is good. I have faith He is going to do something new in the earth and she is getting ready to give birth. The harvest is great and I want to be ready in every way I can be.
Thanks for sayin hello. It was nice to hear your story.
Much Love and Many Blessings

redeemedbyhim
Mar 5th 2008, 04:00 AM
I may not be a biblical scholar, well the truth is I'm not,

Believe it or not, the New Testament was written in common language Greek. The scholars didn't know for sure what language it was because they didn't use common Greek. They spoke the 'High' Language. The Bible was written so the common man could read and understand.
I am learning much about the Holy Spirit right now. I was in a great many churches all of my life but I never knew I could have Jesus as my own. I always thought I had to go through someone else. Now I know I am worthy to go before Him and meet with Him anywhere, anytime. How amazing.
I loved your testimony. I have a family member that did our family tree and we found out we have Jewish roots. In 1883 for some reason the last name was changed to sound more German and the family moved. That was as far back as we could go for there were many churches that were burned and there are no more records. It was an honor to know my heritage for the first time. I always thought I was Italian, German, and Irish. Then I find after half of my life here that I have Jewish ancestry. So now I just call myself a Christian. I am no longer a resident here anyway. I am an heir of Heaven and I am just passin through. I hope to make a difference for God's Kingdom but I am spending this year getting my foundation right. I have been looking for God in the churches and have not found Him. God is good. I have faith He is going to do something new in the earth and she is getting ready to give birth. The harvest is great and I want to be ready in every way I can be.
Thanks for sayin hello. It was nice to hear your story.
Much Love and Many Blessings

I hope to read more of your posts in the future, it will be a blessing, no doubt to hear what you're learning.
Guess we both had some of the same wrong teaching, you thought you had to go thru someone else and I thought it was forbidden for me to approach the Lord. He's so wonderful! He sees and knows a heart seeking after Him and finds a way to reveal Himself! Praise His Name!
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.
Blessings.

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 04:35 AM
It makes perfect sense because the whole chapter is about love. it is not talking about the Bible at all. Try reading it this way, "But when perfect love is come (into me)..." And the "unto me" is not a careless insertion with disregard to context because in verse 11, Paul says, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things". Which is a very personal application.

But see what your implying is that Gods perfect love didnt exist until christ died. Christ already knew that he would have to die for our sins, even before the creation of the world. So his love was already perfect.so there is no reason for "his perfect love to come", it already existed. Second, You cant take words from the KJV or any other translation at face value, there is an individual meaning for every word, even the same word used in different verses has seperate meaning. The reason for this is there were only 200,000 words in the hebrew, aramaic, and greek language, compared to over 1 million in english at the time that the cannon was translated. And now in 2008, there is estimated 5 million different words and slang. Thus being said, the word perfect has no male or female conotation which it would have to have if it was reffering to anything pertaining to jesus.(ie love, grace, holiness,etc) So it most definately is not speaking of love. And the word perfect only had two meanings in the bible, either without flaw, or Maturity."For when that which is [Without flaw] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" Or another example is where the bible commands "be ye perfect" actually means Be ye [MATURE in faith]"

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 05:00 AM
During Russian communism Christians were persecuted. One man was asked if he believed that verse about swallowing poison and nothing would happen. He said he believed it. He asked to see his family once more and it was granted. When he came back a dog was brought in and fed a few drops of poison and it dropped dead. It was then given to him-
and nothing happened. He didn't die that day.

If you meet someone who doesn't speak your language God would help you to speak so the other person would understand. There was a missionary in Africa talking to a large crowd. A translator interpreted everything. After a few minutes the translator told him to keep speaking because they all understood what he was saying. That's speaking in tongues - none of this gibberish that no one understands.

About 20 years ago a missionary was saying that she witnessed when a dead child was prayed over and came to life again.

These things do happen today - unfortunately we don't hear enough of these uplifting stories.

But see the problem is, is that in that passage of scriptures,(mark16:15-17) it says "AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE" not just a few people. if you are a believer, and you drink poison, you will surely die. You must understand the reason why God granted this gift to THE APOSTLES. In that time, most had not heard of jesus and considered it blasphemous to say that the prophecies had come and that the son of god had come. Christians at that time were persecuted and if god had not given this gift then, the apostles who were commisioned to go and preach the gospel to every creature surely would have been assasinated, perhaps by way of poisoning, thus halting the spreading of gods word. And halting the completion of the foundation of christianity. So if you believe that tongues still exist and other miracles (that were only given to the apostles) then you must believe that if you are a believer and were saved and were to drink poison you would not be harmed from it. which is not true. Just because someone did it does not mean that it was of god. The devil can use many false signs to seduce a person into believing they have gifts or powers that they dont have.

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 05:11 AM
Why would this term not be neutral? It's an adjective. The "that which is perfect" is describing something else. It's not a noun. It's describing the noun. This argument is used countless times, and it just doesn't hold up.

It would not be neutral if it was reffering to Jesus. If you do a word search in the greek texts for every time the word perfect was used, you will find that every time they are describing jesus as perfect, it has a masculine conotation. Every time it is describing a thing it is neuter. For example, when the bible says "be ye perfect" it is neuter. Perfect meaning maturity in faith, which is a state of being, not a man.But IN this passage, it is also neuter. So it CANT be reffering to the second coming of jesus.

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 05:20 AM
Yes, I agree that the KJV is the perfect word of God just as much as the NIV is:lol::lol::lol:

I believe that the KJV is the perfect translated into english word of god, but the NIV actually stands for the NON INSPIRED VERSION. Most people dont know this but there are entire verses missing from the NIV. And the bible clearly states that anyone who takes away or adds to the bible shall have all of the plagues and curses in the bible added unto them.-it deletes over 64,000 words including words like mercyseat, Jehovah, and Godhead. It removes meaningful, well-known Bible words like Calvary, Lucifer, new testament, regeneration, etc.When you read below where I say that a verse is COMPLETELY deleted, I mean clean/bald-headed/gone/vanished deleted. For instance, if you search for Acts 8:37 in the NIV you will read,

36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"
38And he ordered the chariot to stop. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him

IT TOTALLY SKIPPED VERSE 17!!! so it is a false bible.

ravi4u2
Mar 5th 2008, 05:25 AM
But see what your implying is that Gods perfect love didnt exist until christ died. Christ already knew that he would have to die for our sins, even before the creation of the world. So his love was already perfect.so there is no reason for "his perfect love to come", it already existed. Second, You cant take words from the KJV or any other translation at face value, there is an individual meaning for every word, even the same word used in different verses has seperate meaning. The reason for this is there were only 200,000 words in the hebrew, aramaic, and greek language, compared to over 1 million in english at the time that the cannon was translated. And now in 2008, there is estimated 5 million different words and slang. Thus being said, the word perfect has no male or female conotation which it would have to have if it was reffering to anything pertaining to jesus.(ie love, grace, holiness,etc) So it most definately is not speaking of love. And the word perfect only had two meanings in the bible, either without flaw, or Maturity."For when that which is [Without flaw] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" Or another example is where the bible commands "be ye perfect" actually means Be ye [MATURE in faith]"Well that would be your opinion at best. No matter how you try to twist and turn, it most certainly speaks about love. Going by context, it would be very unscholarly for you to insert "Bible" in that spot. The word love has no male or female connotation as well. And there is also such a thing as 'being perfected in His love".

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 05:27 AM
I don't argue on that basis, but on the basis of context. Paul has been talking about the Church all through chapter 12 and 13. It is their perfection that is being referred to....in context. To apply it to anything else is eisegesis, not exegesis.

EXACTLY, he is talking about the church and instructing them he is saying that these gifts will cease, so it is important that they use them correctly while they still have them(because it is obvious they were not) and he is giving them basically a deadline for this. When that which is perfect is come. And it cant mean the second coming, for what would be the purpose of making such an obvious statement? Because not only will knowledge, tongues and prophecy cease if it is referring to the second coming, EVERYTHING WILL CEASE!! and if he is instructing them on how to live their christian lives it makes sense if he is telling to bide their time wisely with the gifts they were blessed with.

ravi4u2
Mar 5th 2008, 05:33 AM
The Greek word there is "teleios". As I said earlier:

It makes perfect sense because the whole chapter is about love. it is not talking about the Bible at all. Try reading it this way, "But when perfect love is come (into me)..." And the "unto me" is not a careless insertion with disregard to context because in verse 11, Paul says, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things". Which is a very personal application.
It does not speak about the perfect love of Jesus but of the individual. The Greek word 'teleios' is the same word that is used in 1 John 4:18, "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love."

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 05:43 AM
Looks like we're both pretty new here, this my only second post as well.

I agree with your post and wanted to share my experience. I was raised Jewish and became a Christian when I was finally told by a friend that as a Jew I could be and that He loved me too. It came as a welcomed surprise.
I soon gave my heart to Him and have never been the same since! A few days after giving my heart to Him I attended a church service for the first time. It was wonderful, the music, the praise, the worship, I was caught up in it all.
Now, remember I was a brand new Christian who was raised Jewish...had no clue about the Holy Spirit never mind the baptizim in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in "other tongues"....never, never heard of either.
Back to the worship...I was doing just that in this service, I was raising my hands and singing along and telling the Lord how greateful I was to know Him...and boom....began speaking in other tongues! It was a wonderful experience (still is) but one that I had to ask my friend what just happened? She explained, I believed and still do.
So, where does that leave the question is tongues for today? My experience says a resounding yes.
I may not be a biblical scholar, well the truth is I'm not, but no one will ever convince me that tongues isn't for today.
I do understand the difference of speaking in tongues while praying as Paul did and the "gift" of the tongues and interpatation, God has used me for both many times over the years since that day back in 1970.
I believe God longs to fill all His children with His Spirit, He did me and I wasn't even asking...didn't know any better.
Thanks for listening...many blessings.

You see the problem with most people who believe in these gifts are that most the time they are based on experiences, not on scripture. They believe that because they werent expecting it, or because they didnt ask for it, and when it happened it made them FEEL good, that it must be of god and that they were blessed with a gift. But where is your experience in accordance to gods word? Im not doubting anyone salvation. But you are influenced the first time you go to one of these gifts believing churches to think that THIS IS THE NORM. So your already expecting this to happen to you because it is what you see all around you. Ill give you an example. Lets say that you start at a new school, in a new town, and EVERYONE is wearing baggy pants. You have never wore baggy pants. You arent even sure if it is the right "look" for you. You dont think that, even though everyone else is doing it, that you will conform. But then because of this you start to feel out of place, not accepted. you think that there might be something wrong with you. So one day you wear baggy pants. Everyone now accepts you, you FEEL GOOD! you are one of them now, so this must have been the right thing to do. Now your belief system has changed, you dont know how you ever thought wearing baggy pants was NOT a good look.

Now i know this isnt the best example, but you get my point. And some people do try to twist verses to mean that the gift of tongues and others still apply today, but at the same time avoid other verse speaking to the contrary.

Brother Mark
Mar 5th 2008, 05:48 AM
Now i know this isnt the best example, but you get my point. And some people do try to twist verses to mean that the gift of tongues and others still apply today, but at the same time avoid other verse speaking to the contrary.

Speaking of scripture, you never did address VR or my contention about knowing as you are known. The passage says when that which is perfect has come, we will know as we are known.

Do you know as well as you are known? Shoot, since we are known so well the hair of our heads are numbered, I would be none of us even know how many hairs we got up there unless their all gone. ;)

1 Cor 13:10-12

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV

In context, that which is in part is done away with when we are face to face and know as we are known. That is a deep verse if we think about it's meaning of knowing as well as we are known.

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 06:22 AM
Speaking of scripture, you never did address VR or my contention about knowing as you are known. The passage says when that which is perfect has come, we will know as we are known.

Do you know as well as you are known? Shoot, since we are known so well the hair of our heads are numbered, I would be none of us even know how many hairs we got up there unless their all gone. ;)

1 Cor 13:10-12

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV

In context, that which is in part is done away with when we are face to face and know as we are known. That is a deep verse if we think about it's meaning of knowing as well as we are known.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 12, Paul began a discussion of the temporary spiritual gifts, explaining in chapter 13 that love was more important than the spiritual gifts in the development of the church, the body of Christ. As he closed chapter 13, Paul told the Corinthian Christians that these temporary gifts would cease when “that which is perfect is come” (1 Corinthians 13:10). He wrote, referring to the gifts, “whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away” (1 Corinthians 13:8).
Paul then said, “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:9-10). Paul spoke of the “part” being done away, when “that which is perfect is come.” The word “perfect,” as used by Paul, has the primary meaning of completeness, of being finished, of being fully developed. So Paul said that the “part” would be done away with when the “whole” was completed, or perfect. The purpose of the miraculous spiritual gifts was to provide temporary guidance and help to the early church. The apostles “went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following” That type of miraculous guidance is no longer needed by the church today, however, because we have the written will of Christ, the New Testament. Also, there are no more apostles to exercise those spiritual gifts or pass them on to others. God planned the gifts for the temporary, “in part” period. They were not planned to last until the end of time. the meaning of the passage is that the gifts “shall cease” (13:8).
James made this clear: “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning” . James here used the word “perfect” in the sense of completeness, of being finished, of being whole. In the same chapter, James wrote, “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed” (James 1:25). James spoke of the “perfect” or “complete” “law of liberty.” The “law of liberty” that Christians live by is the New Testament.
The New Testament is “that which is perfect.” With the completion of the New Testament, the “perfect law of liberty,” there was no longer any need for the temporary gifts, or modern revelations. God’s written word is complete, finished, perfect. As Paul wrote to Timothy, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The scriptures can make the man of God “perfect,” or complete, and ready to every good work. So here is everything in a nutshell, yall can twist scripture to fit your own philosophies, or you can make gods word your philosophy.

Brother Mark
Mar 5th 2008, 06:25 AM
In 1 Corinthians chapter 12, Paul began a discussion of the temporary spiritual gifts, explaining in chapter 13 that love was more important than the spiritual gifts in the development of the church, the body of Christ. As he closed chapter 13, Paul told the Corinthian Christians that these temporary gifts would cease when “that which is perfect is come” (1 Corinthians 13:10). He wrote, referring to the gifts, “whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away” (1 Corinthians 13:8).
Paul then said, “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:9-10). Paul spoke of the “part” being done away, when “that which is perfect is come.” The word “perfect,” as used by Paul, has the primary meaning of completeness, of being finished, of being fully developed. So Paul said that the “part” would be done away with when the “whole” was completed, or perfect. The purpose of the miraculous spiritual gifts was to provide temporary guidance and help to the early church. The apostles “went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following” That type of miraculous guidance is no longer needed by the church today, however, because we have the written will of Christ, the New Testament. Also, there are no more apostles to exercise those spiritual gifts or pass them on to others. God planned the gifts for the temporary, “in part” period. They were not planned to last until the end of time. the meaning of the passage is that the gifts “shall cease” (13:8).
James made this clear: “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning” . James here used the word “perfect” in the sense of completeness, of being finished, of being whole. In the same chapter, James wrote, “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed” (James 1:25). James spoke of the “perfect” or “complete” “law of liberty.” The “law of liberty” that Christians live by is the New Testament.
The New Testament is “that which is perfect.” With the completion of the New Testament, the “perfect law of liberty,” there was no longer any need for the temporary gifts, or modern revelations. God’s written word is complete, finished, perfect. As Paul wrote to Timothy, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The scriptures can make the man of God “perfect,” or complete, and ready to every good work. So here is everything in a nutshell, yall can twist scripture to fit your own philosophies, or you can make gods word your philosophy.

Of course they are temporary. But you still dodged the question. ;)

Scripture says that when the part is done away with, it will be because we know as well as we are known. Has that happened yet?

I don't see how anyone can say that they know as well as they are known. So perhaps, you might want to find another passage to show that tongues has been done away with. Otherwise, we're stuck waiting till we know as well as we are known.

PS. Let's keep the twisting scriptures comments out of post. ;)

redeemedbyhim
Mar 5th 2008, 06:58 AM
You see the problem with most people who believe in these gifts are that most the time they are based on experiences, not on scripture. They believe that because they werent expecting it, or because they didnt ask for it, and when it happened it made them FEEL good, that it must be of god and that they were blessed with a gift. But where is your experience in accordance to gods word? Im not doubting anyone salvation. But you are influenced the first time you go to one of these gifts believing churches to think that THIS IS THE NORM. So your already expecting this to happen to you because it is what you see all around you. Ill give you an example. Lets say that you start at a new school, in a new town, and EVERYONE is wearing baggy pants. You have never wore baggy pants. You arent even sure if it is the right "look" for you. You dont think that, even though everyone else is doing it, that you will conform. But then because of this you start to feel out of place, not accepted. you think that there might be something wrong with you. So one day you wear baggy pants. Everyone now accepts you, you FEEL GOOD! you are one of them now, so this must have been the right thing to do. Now your belief system has changed, you dont know how you ever thought wearing baggy pants was NOT a good look.

Now i know this isnt the best example, but you get my point. And some people do try to twist verses to mean that the gift of tongues and others still apply today, but at the same time avoid other verse speaking to the contrary.

You're right, it's a poor example, so I'll not address that unless you can come up with one that fits the situation.

You mention that you're not doubting anyone's salvation, but you said in another post this: "The devil can use many false signs to seduce a person into believing they have gifts or powers that they dont have."

So, either I've been seduced by satan or I'm of the Lord, I can't be both.
And further it would mean that an honest heart who is worshipping Jesus can be filled by something of satan...hmmm, sorry I don't buy that either.

I didn't see or hear anyone around me speaking in tongues, I only saw and heard lovely worship, nobody was acting out of any kind of norm. Nobody even told me to raise my hands, I can't even remember seeing that much.
I have studied the Word and found it to be true:

Is. 28:11-12,
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Acts 10:42-48

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

So, if these gifts were just for the Apostles, was then Cornelius, his family and near friends also Apostles?
And if you notice, Cornelius and company didn't ask to recieve the Holy Ghost either...the Spirit fell on them the same way the Spirit fell on me. I'd venture a pretty good guess Cornelius never heard of speaking in tongues either or had a clue as to if there was a Holy Ghost.
He too was just an honest seeker that God saw and came to him with His glorious presence and salvation.

But, in any event, with all due respect, you're entirely too late to convince me I've been duped by satan into thinking I've recieved something other than from God. This happened in 1970 and His Spirit is still operating in my life...and I praise Him for it always.
Blessings.

godsgirl
Mar 5th 2008, 11:22 AM
You gave an awesome testimony redeemed. Thank you.

Jesus called the baptism in the Spirit "the promise of the Father". Peter said that it was for all of us in Acts chapter 2:39.

My theology, including the baptism in the Spirit-is based, not on my experience, but on the Word of God. -

We are given several examples of people receiving this baptism in the early church-each and every time evidence is given for that baptism-tongues are there.

The gift of tongues is something entirely different-not all those who are baptised in the Spirit and pray in tongues-like Paul did....will be used in the "gift" which is the public manifestation of tongues that needs the companion gift of interpretation so that the church can be built up.

godsgirl
Mar 5th 2008, 11:28 AM
Here is my testimony of the baptism in the Spirit....

Just thought I"d share this here...

I had "heard" of this-(the Baptism in the Holy Spirit), but I didn't attend a church that taught it-and I just wasn't sure what was right and what wasnt'. For awhile, I believed it was something real and for me, then I'd hear another preacher and go the opposite way-first believing, then not believing it-finally, I began to seek the Lord Jesus Christ on this matter-and asked Him to teach me if it was right or wrong. Over a period of about 4 months He taught me through the scriptures that He wanted all of His children to receive-so I asked Jesus to baptise me in the Holy Spirit-but for quite a while-nothing happened-no bolts of lightning, nobody moved my mouth for me, and I just couldn't quite "get it". Then one night I had a dream and woke up praying in a language I didn't know. But dense as I am-I still wasn't convinced. (I thought it was just a dream) A couple weeks later-I was praying alone in my dining room and asked Him "once again" to baptise me. I had a short "vision" for lack of a better term-of Jesus walking toward me-I was so humbled I couldn't look up at Him-but could clearly see His sandaled feet and the Hem of His garment-He had His Hand outstretched-and when He laid His Hands on my head-I fell to the floor on my knees-praying in a language I didn't know-the room drifted into the background and there was only Him. He is Love-manifested.
He changed me from someone who was "religious" to someone who absolutly fell in love with the King of Kings. Totally different relationship.




"there is coming one who is mightier than I, it is He who baptises with the Holy Spirit"

As far as the "gift" of tongues-where one speaks in a church service-and the interpretation comes forth.===about a year or so after that-the Lord used me in that gift. I maybe have been used in that gift 6 or 7 times in my life-but tongues, as prayer and praise-much more often. But, despite what some of you have said-I've never seen it written up in the church bulliten--the Spiritual gifts are manifested-"as the Spirit wills".


Jesus called this "baptism in the Spirit" the promise of the Father in Acts 1-Peter told us who the promise was for in Acts 2...
--for the promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38-39)

Blessings to all!

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 5th 2008, 11:34 AM
I believe that the KJV is the perfect translated into english word of god, but the NIV actually stands for the NON INSPIRED VERSION. Most people dont know this but there are entire verses missing from the NIV. And the bible clearly states that anyone who takes away or adds to the bible shall have all of the plagues and curses in the bible added unto them.-it deletes over 64,000 words including words like mercyseat, Jehovah, and Godhead. It removes meaningful, well-known Bible words like Calvary, Lucifer, new testament, regeneration, etc.When you read below where I say that a verse is COMPLETELY deleted, I mean clean/bald-headed/gone/vanished deleted. For instance, if you search for Acts 8:37 in the NIV you will read,
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"
38And he ordered the chariot to stop. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him
IT TOTALLY SKIPPED VERSE 17!!! so it is a false bible.

This is not a bible version topic but...

First things first. In the add to and take away verse it DOESN'T say "Bible" it say prophesy of this book (meaning Revelation). And that's in the KJV so you will know it's true.

Try again...

36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:36;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27202a)]


Footnotes:

Acts 8:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:36;&version=31;#en-NIV-27202) Some late manuscripts baptized?" 37 Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."Notice what the footnote says. It is not taking it out it is saying some manuscripts do not have it.

Ok..now you are going to say something like "well it takes it out because they are trying to hide the fact that Jesus is the Son of God" or something along those lines so I will straighten this issue out as well...

Acts 9:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=9&verse=20&version=31&context=verse) (NIV)
[ Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem ] Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

godsgirl
Mar 5th 2008, 11:43 AM
Jesus said that He came to baptise with the Holy Spirit.---Here is a good Bible study on this promise from our Father.


1. Luke 24:49, "Behold I send the Promise of My Father upon you.". Jn 1:38, John said of Jesus, "This is the One who baptises in the Holy Spirit".

2. Up until Acts 1:5 no one had yet been baptised in the Holy Spirit. "You shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit not many days from now".

3. The first people to receive the Holy Spirit were the disciples in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost, 10 days after the Ascension. Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance".
(Note: they were all filled, not just the apostles or a select few.)

4. The Samaritans received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through the ministry of Peter and John, Acts 8:17, "Then they laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit".
5. The Household of Cornelius were the first Gentiles to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:44, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word."
6. Some Ephesian believers were baptised in the Holy Spirit after they were baptised in water.

Acts 19:6, "And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied."V. THE SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE OF BEING BAPTISED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

There are many evidences of a person "on fire" for Jesus that relates back to their revelation of Jesus, enthusiasm, motivation and zeal. These things are all wonderful but it is not the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. We have to rest our doctrines on the foundation of Scripture. We believe that the scriptural evidence of a believer baptised in the Holy Spirit is the God-given and inspired ability to speak in languages they have not naturally learnt.

1. Acts 2:4, "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other languages." The word all means that none were left out. None received another manifestation. Those that were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost spoke with other tongues.


2. Acts 10:46, "Cornelius' household were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other languages."

3. Acts 11:15-17 - Peter knew that Cornelius had been filled with the Holy Spirit because he heard him speak in tongues, Acts 10:46.


4. Acts 19:6 - When the Ephesian Christians were baptised in the Holy Spirit, they spoke with tongues.


5. Mark 16:17 - Jesus said that believers would speak in new tongues. Many people would have us look at other experiences as the initial evidence. This however does not concur with the scriptural evidence. Once our experience is raised above what the scriptures clearly say, we are on a pathway that leads to all types of beliefs. Zealousness, love for God, love for people, evangelism, commitment to holiness, ought to be the evidence of regeneration. Peter clearly concluded that Cornelius had been filled with the Holy Spirit because he spoke in other tongues. There is no other sign apart from tongues that the scriptures declare to be the initial evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit. The scriptures teach us what to look for.

VI. SOME CLARIFICATIONS CONCERNING TONGUES


1. The ability to speak in tongues that one receives at the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is different to the manifestation of the Gifts of the Spirit as enumerated in 1 Cor 12:4-11.


2. There is a special gift called the 'gift of tongues' - PUBLIC USE. This gift is for special use in Church meetings in conjunction with another gift called the 'interpretation of tongues'. Not everyone has this gift. 1 Cor 12:30 “…do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?”
3. This gift of tongues is for man's benefit that all who hear the message with its interpretation may profit.
1 Cor 12:7, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all". Note the word ALL.

4. The tongues that one receives at the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for - PRIVATE USE. It is not for everyone's benefit but rather for God. 1 Cor 14:2 - Speaking to God. "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man but to God."
5. This private use of tongues edifies the believer, not the church.
1 Cor 14:4, "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself." Edify = Gk OIKODOMEO = to build up, promoting the spiritual growth and development of the character of believers. (Vines)

6. Paul encourages us not to forbid people speaking in tongues.
1 Cor 14:39, "Do not forbid to speak in tongues".

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 5th 2008, 11:54 AM
25Fiery,

I see from your public profile that you are attending a Bible college. Let me take a guess...Southern Baptist, Missionary Baptist, or Independent Baptist?

VerticalReality
Mar 5th 2008, 02:23 PM
It would not be neutral if it was reffering to Jesus. If you do a word search in the greek texts for every time the word perfect was used, you will find that every time they are describing jesus as perfect, it has a masculine conotation. Every time it is describing a thing it is neuter. For example, when the bible says "be ye perfect" it is neuter. Perfect meaning maturity in faith, which is a state of being, not a man.But IN this passage, it is also neuter. So it CANT be reffering to the second coming of jesus.

It's not referring to Jesus or His second coming. Have you read what folks in this thread have been saying?

redeemedbyhim
Mar 5th 2008, 02:47 PM
You gave an awesome testimony redeemed. Thank you.

Jesus called the baptism in the Spirit "the promise of the Father". Peter said that it was for all of us in Acts chapter 2:39.

My theology, including the baptism in the Spirit-is based, not on my experience, but on the Word of God. -

We are given several examples of people receiving this baptism in the early church-each and every time evidence is given for that baptism-tongues are there.

The gift of tongues is something entirely different-not all those who are baptised in the Spirit and pray in tongues-like Paul did....will be used in the "gift" which is the public manifestation of tongues that needs the companion gift of interpretation so that the church can be built up.

Thank you, Godsgirl. I enjoyed reading your testimony too. God is so awesome!
Thanks for the reminder of Acts 2:39! That should settle the matter since it's clear that the promise is unto all future generations, but some still resist, sadly. They are missing such a wonderful gift of His very presence.

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 04:51 PM
This is not a bible version topic but...

First things first. In the add to and take away verse it DOESN'T say "Bible" it say prophesy of this book (meaning Revelation). And that's in the KJV so you will know it's true.

Try again...

36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:36;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27202a)]


Footnotes:

Acts 8:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:36;&version=31;#en-NIV-27202) Some late manuscripts baptized?" 37 Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."Notice what the footnote says. It is not taking it out it is saying some manuscripts do not have it.

Ok..now you are going to say something like "well it takes it out because they are trying to hide the fact that Jesus is the Son of God" or something along those lines so I will straighten this issue out as well...

Acts 9:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=9&verse=20&version=31&context=verse) (NIV)
[ Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem ] Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

Well that was just one verse that i quoted, there are many others. ANd many other "NEW" translations, dont even add footnotes. If you look at the NIV childrens bible, it doesnt have these "footnotes." And dont you see this is just the begining. They are laying the foundation, if they take the verse out and add it to the bottom as a footnote, and the majority of christians either dont notice, or dont have a problem with it, then there will be more to come.

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 04:53 PM
It's not referring to Jesus or His second coming. Have you read what folks in this thread have been saying?

Then what are you saying? what is it referring to? Love? it makes more sense for it to be the second coming than love. and i dont believe its either .

VerticalReality
Mar 5th 2008, 04:59 PM
Then what are you saying? what is it referring to? Love? it makes more sense for it to be the second coming than love. and i dont believe its either .

I believe it's exactly what the Word is talking about in 2 Corinthians 3:18, as I posted for you earlier.

In all honesty, as I also pointed out earlier, it's absolutely impossible that this passage is speaking about the bible, and there is really no way to get around that fact.

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 06:35 PM
25Fiery,

I see from your public profile that you are attending a Bible college. Let me take a guess...Southern Baptist, Missionary Baptist, or Independent Baptist?

Southeastern Free Will Baptist Bible College in Wendell NC

FieryProphet25
Mar 5th 2008, 06:43 PM
I believe it's exactly what the Word is talking about in 2 Corinthians 3:18, as I posted for you earlier.

In all honesty, as I also pointed out earlier, it's absolutely impossible that this passage is speaking about the bible, and there is really no way to get around that fact.

Here is my breakdown done last semester of these several verses. This should clear any questions up about the bible being "that which is perfect"
1Co 13:10 But1161 when3752 that which is perfect50465046 – Greek 5046 teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.
is come2064, then5119 that which is in1537 part3313 shall be done away2673.(done away: Gr. vanish away)
1Co 13:11 When3753 I was2252 a child35163516 - Greek3516 nepios nay'-pee-os from an obsolete particle ne- (implying negation) and 2031; not speaking, i.e. an infant (minor); figuratively, a simple-minded person, an immature Christian:--babe, child (+ -ish).
, I spake2980 as5613 a child3516, I understood5426 as5613 a child3516, I thought3049 as5613 a child3516: but1161 when3753 I became1096 a man435, I put away2673 childish things3516.
1Co 13:12 For1063 now737737 – Greek 737 arti ar'-tee adverb from a derivative of 142 (compare 740) through the idea of suspension; just now:--this day (hour), hence(-forth), here(-after), hither(-to), (even) now, (this) present.
we see991 through1223 a glass20722072 – Greek 2072 esoptron es'-op-tron from 1519 and a presumed derivative of 3700; a mirror (for looking into):--glass. Compare 2734.
, darkly1722135135 – Greek 135 ainigma ah'-ee-nig-ma from a derivative of 136 (in its primary sense); an obscure saying ("enigma"), i.e. (abstractly) obscureness:--X darkly.
; but1161 then5119 face4383 to4314 face4383: now737 I know1097 in1537 part3313; but1161 then5119 shall I know19211921 – Greek 1921 epiginosko ep-ig-in-oce'-ko from 1909 and 1097; to know upon some mark, i.e. recognize; by implication, to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge:--(ac-, have, take)know(-ledge, well), perceive.
even as2531 also2532 I am known1921.
1Co 13:13 And1161 now3570 abideth33063306 – Greek 3306 meno men'-o a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
faith4102, hope1680, charity26, these5023 three5140; but1161 the greatest3187 of these5130is charity26.

Explanation.

I've found these these threads in the Greek, which explain the text quite well for themselves. The thread of Strong’s Greek numbers of 2673 all refer to one and the same thing – a making void or vanishing away of the gift of tongues, of the gift of prophecy, of the gift of knowledge. (The Greek 3973 still refers to a coming to an end)
The second thread beginning at 3313 all refer to one and the same thing – a section or a short time of the use of these gifts.
The Greek of v8 1601 ‘faileth’ is an exception of the 2673. This is because it stands in special contrast to v13 ‘abideth’. Bringing stronger emphasis to what is temporary and what is permanent. Indeed the Love of God is a permanent feature for the true church whereas these spiritual gifts of God are not.
There is however 2 things of great interest here which I’ve highlighted in red as they stand alone being the only 2 things unaccounted for in this text. What exactly is ‘that which isperfect’ 5046? And what exactly is ‘a glass’ 2072? Each of these has a Greek reference that are of striking similarity in meaning.

We find three verses in James 1:23-25:
Jam 1:23 For3754 if any1536 be2076 a hearer202 of the word3056, and2532 not3756 a doer4163, he3778 is like1503 unto a man435 beholding2657 his846 natural1078 face4383 in1722a glass2072:


Jam 1:24 For1063 he beholdeth2657 himself1438, and2532 goeth his way565, and2532 straightway2112 forgetteth1950 what manner of man3697 he was2258.


Jam 1:25 But1161 whoso looketh3879 into1519the perfect5046law3551 of liberty1657, and2532 continueth3887therein , he3778 being1096 not3756 a forgetful1953 hearer202, but235 a doer4163 of the work2041, this man3778 shall be2071 blessed3107 in1722 his846 deed4162.(deed: or, doing)

'That which is perfect' and the 'glass' are then beyond doubt the written Word of God. The fact that it is the written word that is being reffered to is also confirmed by the word of God being like a 'glass' or mirror, again in 2Co 3:18 'But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord'. In the verses just preceding v18, it is clear that it's the Old Testament that's being referred to. Since James speaks of 'the perfect law of liberty' he can only be speaking of the New Testament.
The gifts of revelation provided signs and revelation of truth, temporarily filling in until the completion of the New Testament -the completed and final word of God.

VerticalReality
Mar 5th 2008, 06:56 PM
Here is my breakdown done last semester of these several verses. This should clear any questions up about the bible being "that which is perfect"

I've studied this subject quite extensively, so you can rest assured that I have taken plenty of time to study this topic from every possible angle. I've seen and heard your view numerous times over, and the fact of the matter is that it isn't possible.



1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.


You realize Paul is talking about himself here, correct? You also realize that he is referring here to when "that which is perfect" has come, right? You are aware that Paul is stating that he will see the "that which is perfect", true?

I am also assuming that you realize that Paul was never around for the completed bible. This view just isn't possible. Paul was long gone before John finished Revelation.

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 5th 2008, 11:55 PM
I've studied this subject quite extensively, so you can rest assured that I have taken plenty of time to study this topic from every possible angle. I've seen and heard your view numerous times over, and the fact of the matter is that it isn't possible.



You realize Paul is talking about himself here, correct? You also realize that he is referring here to when "that which is perfect" has come, right? You are aware that Paul is stating that he will see the "that which is perfect", true?

I am also assuming that you realize that Paul was never around for the completed bible. This view just isn't possible. Paul was long gone before John finished Revelation.

Hammer it home brother!!

On a lighter note...are you telling me that Paul didn't carry the 1611??:eek:

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 6th 2008, 12:11 AM
Just for kicks I looked up 5046...

What I found that was interesting is this word was translated as "men" and "of full age" as well as "perfect". Hmmm:hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:

5046τέλειος [teleios /tel·i·os/] adj (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1561888#_ftn1). 19 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1561888#_ftn5) translates as “perfect” 17 times, “men” once, and “of full age” once. 1 brought to its end, finished. 2 wanting nothing necessary to completeness. 3 perfect. 4 that which is perfect. 4a consummate human integrity and virtue. 4b of men. 4b1 full grown, adult, of full age, mature.

1 Corinthians 14:20...malice be ye children, but in understanding be men . In the law it is ...

Hebrews 5:14...But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age , even those who by reason of ...

FieryProphet25
Mar 13th 2008, 03:41 AM
Is this post dying? Hopefully not, still many unanswered questions

menJesus
Mar 13th 2008, 05:45 AM
What are your questions? ask away... ;)

ProjectPeter
Mar 13th 2008, 09:47 AM
Some people do take up snakes-

http://www.soundportraits.org/images/they_shall_take_up_serpents-1.jpgThat's because they aren't real smart! :lol:

ProjectPeter
Mar 13th 2008, 10:05 AM
Now i know this isnt the best example, but you get my point. And some people do try to twist verses to mean that the gift of tongues and others still apply today, but at the same time avoid other verse speaking to the contrary.Show me the others that say they are done away with? I've read the Bible more times than I can count and I've never seen such a verse.

I can show you clear verses where it does exist and nothing saying clearly that it is done away with. You take that one passage and insert Bible in there and say... THERE YA GO!!!

Here is the ending of chapter 12... all of 13 and the beginning of 14. Since this was a letter and all those numbers aren't really in the letter... I am doing it this way to make the point.

¶And I show you a still more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love,

Now... Paul is writing about love. There just isn't much getting around this contextual point... right?

Now look at that 8th verse... LOVE NEVER FAILS. Prophecy, tongues, knowledge, etc... all of that will be done away with one day. But what will never be done away with... LOVE. Even greater than faith and hope Paul says and if you've ever read Roman... you sure enough know the importance Paul places on those two traits.

Paul is talking about love here and what you are trying to do is say that he was going on about all this love stuff and just out of the blue Paul talks about the "completed Scripture" and etc. Not only does it make no sense... it just falls apart context wise.

Here is the rest of that verse in the 14th chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

If this doesn't apply to the church today... then tell me what else in Scripture (PERFECT) should we strike out as not applicable?

VerticalReality
Mar 13th 2008, 02:36 PM
If this doesn't apply to the church today... then tell me what else in Scripture (PERFECT) should we strike out as not applicable?

That's always been a head scratcher for me as well. The bible is supposed to be the "that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 but at the same time the "that which is perfect" has large portions of it that no longer apply for us today according to these folks who teach this.

Ummm . . . okay . . . :lol:

ProjectPeter
Mar 13th 2008, 03:09 PM
That's always been a head scratcher for me as well. The bible is supposed to be the "that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 but at the same time the "that which is perfect" has large portions of it that no longer apply for us today according to these folks who teach this.

Ummm . . . okay . . . :lol:
It is a bit of a head scratcher no doubt. My main point though is that look... the context in this passage is love. The overall context of the three chapters is unity in the body of Christ. Paul starts that in the middle of the 12th chapter when he begins to use the body part analogy. Paul ends that in the 14th chapter when laying out order in which they are to follow.

What is the perfect bond of unity?

Colossians 3:14 And beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.

That which is perfect here... it is love.

obeytheword
Mar 13th 2008, 03:09 PM
Show me the others that say they are done away with? I've read the Bible more times than I can count and I've never seen such a verse.

I can show you clear verses where it does exist and nothing saying clearly that it is done away with. You take that one passage and insert Bible in there and say... THERE YA GO!!!

Here is the ending of chapter 12... all of 13 and the beginning of 14. Since this was a letter and all those numbers aren't really in the letter... I am doing it this way to make the point.

¶And I show you a still more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love,

Now... Paul is writing about love. There just isn't much getting around this contextual point... right?

Now look at that 8th verse... LOVE NEVER FAILS. Prophecy, tongues, knowledge, etc... all of that will be done away with one day. But what will never be done away with... LOVE. Even greater than faith and hope Paul says and if you've ever read Roman... you sure enough know the importance Paul places on those two traits.

Paul is talking about love here and what you are trying to do is say that he was going on about all this love stuff and just out of the blue Paul talks about the "completed Scripture" and etc. Not only does it make no sense... it just falls apart context wise.

Here is the rest of that verse in the 14th chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

If this doesn't apply to the church today... then tell me what else in Scripture (PERFECT) should we strike out as not applicable?

Good Post!

Another interesting thing to look at is in Col.

Col 3
12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

Clearly Love is the over-riding thing we are to pursue - Colossians also calls love the bond of perfection.

There are also many scriptures that talk about us being made "perfect" in Christ. This also flows rather well with the idea that "that which is perfect" refers to our condition, and how we exemplify love.

To literally force the concept of that which is perfect being the completed scripture is (to be nice) - not good, and clearly wrong.

Be Blessed!

amazzin
Mar 13th 2008, 03:20 PM
1 Corinthians 13:8 says that "charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease, wether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part and we prophecy in part10 but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.....

Now there are only 2 things that are perfect in christianity. Jesus and his word. But which is verse 10 reffering to? I believe it is the bible. It uses the word THAT, THAT is a thing not a person, just as the gifts are a thing and shall be done away.

The gifts were given to the apostles to prove their commision by god, and to build the foundation of the church. Gods word is the foundation of the church. Once that was accomplished, there were no need for gifts. At least those gifts. Paul clarifies this in the last verse of chapter 13, where he lists the gifts that remain, " and now abideth faith, hope,charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Interesting approach. You don't even ask for input. You make a statement and we are to agree?

ProjectPeter
Mar 13th 2008, 03:24 PM
Good Post!

Another interesting thing to look at is in Col.

Col 3
12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

Clearly Love is the over-riding thing we are to pursue - Colossians also calls love the bond of perfection.

There are also many scriptures that talk about us being made "perfect" in Christ. This also flows rather well with the idea that "that which is perfect" refers to our condition, and how we exemplify love.

To literally force the concept of that which is perfect being the completed scripture is (to be nice) - not good, and clearly wrong.

Be Blessed!Yeah... that was the Scripture that I was leading to and you'll see posted a bit down the page. :) Good thoughts.

Semachiah
Mar 13th 2008, 04:43 PM
Shalom,

Lets go back at look at the original post and how it contradicts itself...

Originally Posted by FieryProphet25 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1559719#post1559719)
1 Corinthians 13:8 says that "charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease, wether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part and we prophecy in part10 but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.....

Now there are only 2 things that are perfect in christianity. Jesus and his word. But which is verse 10 reffering to? I believe it is the bible. It uses the word THAT, THAT is a thing not a person, just as the gifts are a thing and shall be done away.

The gifts were given to the apostles to prove their commision by god, and to build the foundation of the church. Gods word is the foundation of the church. Once that was accomplished, there were no need for gifts. At least those gifts. Paul clarifies this in the last verse of chapter 13, where he lists the gifts that remain, " and now abideth faith, hope,charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."


Which came first the chicken or the egg?
If Y'SHUA was what was being spoken of in 1 Cor 13:8 then tongues would never have happened at all. Remember He came before the gifting of tongues was ever expressed.
If it were the completion of the written Word of YHVH then thre canonization of the Bible would have taken place the moment the last Word of YHVH was ever penned and all the Apostles would have had to die at that moment or before as well as all of the others that the New Testament indicates demonstrated the gifts of The SPIRIT. In addition if these had only been for that time, then there was no need for YHVH to have ever included them, for all they have done is to make hypocrites or liars out of a vast number of Believers.

FieryProphet25
Mar 14th 2008, 07:09 PM
Show me the others that say they are done away with? I've read the Bible more times than I can count and I've never seen such a verse.

I can show you clear verses where it does exist and nothing saying clearly that it is done away with. You take that one passage and insert Bible in there and say... THERE YA GO!!!

Here is the ending of chapter 12... all of 13 and the beginning of 14. Since this was a letter and all those numbers aren't really in the letter... I am doing it this way to make the point.

¶And I show you a still more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love,

Now... Paul is writing about love. There just isn't much getting around this contextual point... right?

Now look at that 8th verse... LOVE NEVER FAILS. Prophecy, tongues, knowledge, etc... all of that will be done away with one day. But what will never be done away with... LOVE. Even greater than faith and hope Paul says and if you've ever read Roman... you sure enough know the importance Paul places on those two traits.

Paul is talking about love here and what you are trying to do is say that he was going on about all this love stuff and just out of the blue Paul talks about the "completed Scripture" and etc. Not only does it make no sense... it just falls apart context wise.

Here is the rest of that verse in the 14th chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

If this doesn't apply to the church today... then tell me what else in Scripture (PERFECT) should we strike out as not applicable?

LOL. you said that 1 corinthians 13:8 where it CLEARLY states that tongues, prophecy, and knowledge will all fade away, cease and fail, that it will happen "one day". Dont you realize that once the word of god was completed, that is when these things ceased? Do you honestly think that these things still exist today? on what basis? Tongues only served 2 purposes, 1. So the apostles would not be hindered by language barriers in order to evangelize. 2. To have direct intercession with GOD so that they may be accurate in everything they say. Once the bible was completed, there was no need for this, the bible served both purposes. Paul said they did those things in part, and when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part will be no more. That which is perfect is the bible. So those things that are in part are now done away with, which is why HE clearly stated which things will still remain. Now abideth faith, hope and charity, and the greatest of these is charity. Because what more do you need but THE BIBLE, FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE?

FieryProphet25
Mar 14th 2008, 07:17 PM
Show me the others that say they are done away with? I've read the Bible more times than I can count and I've never seen such a verse.

I can show you clear verses where it does exist and nothing saying clearly that it is done away with. You take that one passage and insert Bible in there and say... THERE YA GO!!!

Here is the ending of chapter 12... all of 13 and the beginning of 14. Since this was a letter and all those numbers aren't really in the letter... I am doing it this way to make the point.

¶And I show you a still more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love,

Now... Paul is writing about love. There just isn't much getting around this contextual point... right?

Now look at that 8th verse... LOVE NEVER FAILS. Prophecy, tongues, knowledge, etc... all of that will be done away with one day. But what will never be done away with... LOVE. Even greater than faith and hope Paul says and if you've ever read Roman... you sure enough know the importance Paul places on those two traits.

Paul is talking about love here and what you are trying to do is say that he was going on about all this love stuff and just out of the blue Paul talks about the "completed Scripture" and etc. Not only does it make no sense... it just falls apart context wise.

Here is the rest of that verse in the 14th chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

If this doesn't apply to the church today... then tell me what else in Scripture (PERFECT) should we strike out as not applicable?


And you have to realize, that when paul said this to the corinthians, the bible was not complete, he wasnt saying, RIGHT NOW to stop, he was saying, basically, Hey, once the bible (that which is perfect) is complete, you wont need these things anymore, but continue until that time to desire spiritual gifts, because the foundation of the church has not been fully established yet. That was the only purpose for spiritual gifts of that time. And he went on to say that after that time when those things will cease, there will still remain certain spiritual gifts that we are to desire, LOVE being the most important, faith, and hope. ANd let me ask you a question. IF thse spiritual gifts still apply today, then whouldnt i be able to drink deadly poison and not be harmed? THis was also one of the gifts that the book of mark promises to all those who believe. But you see, that is another proof that those gifts were ONLY for the apostles and people of that time. Otherwise i would be able to drink cyanide and not be hurt. and you would too, which we both know will surely kill us.

ProjectPeter
Mar 14th 2008, 07:51 PM
LOL. you said that 1 corinthians 13:8 where it CLEARLY states that tongues, prophecy, and knowledge will all fade away, cease and fail, that it will happen "one day". Dont you realize that once the word of god was completed, that is when these things ceased? Do you honestly think that these things still exist today? on what basis? Tongues only served 2 purposes, 1. So the apostles would not be hindered by language barriers in order to evangelize. 2. To have direct intercession with GOD so that they may be accurate in everything they say. Once the bible was completed, there was no need for this, the bible served both purposes. Paul said they did those things in part, and when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part will be no more. That which is perfect is the bible. So those things that are in part are now done away with, which is why HE clearly stated which things will still remain. Now abideth faith, hope and charity, and the greatest of these is charity. Because what more do you need but THE BIBLE, FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE?Um... yes. I do believe they are still active today. On the basis that the Bible tells me so. ;) And just in case you totally didn't read what I actually said... the context of that is love. Not the "Bible."

ProjectPeter
Mar 14th 2008, 07:54 PM
And you have to realize, that when paul said this to the corinthians, the bible was not complete, he wasnt saying, RIGHT NOW to stop, he was saying, basically, Hey, once the bible (that which is perfect) is complete, you wont need these things anymore, but continue until that time to desire spiritual gifts, because the foundation of the church has not been fully established yet. That was the only purpose for spiritual gifts of that time. And he went on to say that after that time when those things will cease, there will still remain certain spiritual gifts that we are to desire, LOVE being the most important, faith, and hope. ANd let me ask you a question. IF thse spiritual gifts still apply today, then whouldnt i be able to drink deadly poison and not be harmed? THis was also one of the gifts that the book of mark promises to all those who believe. But you see, that is another proof that those gifts were ONLY for the apostles and people of that time. Otherwise i would be able to drink cyanide and not be hurt. and you would too, which we both know will surely kill us.It doesn't say the Bible, faith, hope and love. Paul knew how to spell the Greek equivalent to "Scripture." If Paul meant to say once Scripture is complete then Paul would have said that. Paul was talking about "love" in that part of his writing. Love is perfect. That is what Paul is speaking of in that passage. You have to force the word "Bible/Scripture" in that text and you have to force it big time. It would be totally out of context.

danield
Mar 14th 2008, 08:01 PM
I do not think tongues are unbiblical today. I do not have the gift of tongues, but it does not mean that the Holy Spirit can not give this special gift to someone else. If I felt that tongues were unbiblical today then it would mean that he Holy Spirit has changed. I believe that the Holy Spirit has not changed at all, It is the same as it was yesterday, today, and will be tomorrow, and it still can award any gift that the bible states.

However, what has changed is the abuse of deception that people have created surrounding Christianity. There have been many people who have posed as very holy men and women to gain respect in their reputation or financial gains. In doing this they sensationalize many of these special gifts that God has intended only for his people. But when these actual gifts are awarded to people we often quickly denounce it because there are so many that have deceived us and we are all leery of anything that seems out of the ordinary.

I have not read the entire thread so please forgive me if I have repeated some previous thoughts.

obeytheword
Mar 14th 2008, 08:17 PM
And you have to realize, that when paul said this to the corinthians, the bible was not complete, he wasnt saying, RIGHT NOW to stop, he was saying, basically, Hey, once the bible (that which is perfect) is complete, you wont need these things anymore, but continue until that time to desire spiritual gifts, because the foundation of the church has not been fully established yet. That was the only purpose for spiritual gifts of that time. And he went on to say that after that time when those things will cease, there will still remain certain spiritual gifts that we are to desire, LOVE being the most important, faith, and hope. ANd let me ask you a question. IF thse spiritual gifts still apply today, then whouldnt i be able to drink deadly poison and not be harmed? THis was also one of the gifts that the book of mark promises to all those who believe. But you see, that is another proof that those gifts were ONLY for the apostles and people of that time. Otherwise i would be able to drink cyanide and not be hurt. and you would too, which we both know will surely kill us.

Paul is talking about love being made perfect in us. Context is rather clear on the point as PP has clearly shown already, so re-hashing that is not likely to help. Please look at the following:

2 Peter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Peter is warning his readers to beware of people who will twist Pauls words around. It was apparently something rather pronounced then for him to mention it I suppose. I personally believe there are many many groups today that will take one comment from him out of context and wrap a theology around it. The scripture in 1 Cor is quite literally the only scripture that indicates in any way that the gifts of the spirit are not fully eternal.

It also states that they will be done away with when "that which is perfect has come". If you read chapter 13 objectively you will understand that when perfect love has come, then there is no need for the spiritual gifts.

I can say with all assurance I do not know as I am known - Nor do I see face to face. Yet scripture clearly puts these things at the same time as "that which is perfect" coming.

Do you know as you are known? And do you see Face to Face?

Be Blessed!

ProjectPeter
Mar 14th 2008, 08:17 PM
I do not think tongues are unbiblical today. I do not have the gift of tongues, but it does not mean that the Holy Spirit can not give this special gift to someone else. If I felt that tongues were unbiblical today then it would mean that he Holy Spirit has changed. I believe that the Holy Spirit has not changed at all, It is the same as it was yesterday, today, and will be tomorrow, and it still can award any gift that the bible states.

However, what has changed is the abuse of deception that people have created surrounding Christianity. There have been many people who have posed as very holy men and women to gain respect in their reputation or financial gains. In doing this they sensationalize many of these special gifts that God has intended only for his people. But when these actual gifts are awarded to people we often quickly denounce it because there are so many that have deceived us and we are all leery of anything that seems out of the ordinary.

I have not read the entire thread so please forgive me if I have repeated some previous thoughts.
Oh now doubt there is plenty of nonsense out there under the guise of tongues, prophecy and most anything else you can think of. I'd be one of the first to admit that as a solid fact. My problem is that so many folks take the weirdness and say "see... proof tongues are done." That to me would be the same as saying "Cults... see... God isn't real." All because some bonehead acts like a bonehead.

Tabernacle
Mar 14th 2008, 11:19 PM
Anyone noticed that tongues are a sign gift which were never, ever used outside the presence of Jews?

OR that gentiles spoke in tongues exclusively for the singular purpose of proving to the Jews that salvation had come to gentiles (1 Cor 1:22) due of course to the fact that the Jews require a sign (not the gentiles).

OR did anyone notice that even if gentiles were granted a sign gift (which they weren't of course, but if they had been, has anyone noticed that not one single woman in the Bible ever spoke in tongues?

Tongues was a vehicle of the gospel to bridge language problems among the Jews. To get excited about the gift RATHER than the content of the gift (the gospel of Jesus Christ) is like getting excited about the wrapper and discarding the Christmas gift within.

danield
Mar 14th 2008, 11:34 PM
To get excited about the gift RATHER than the content of the gift (the gospel of Jesus Christ) is like getting excited about the wrapper and discarding the Christmas gift within.

Amen Tabernacle!

ProjectPeter
Mar 15th 2008, 03:24 AM
Anyone noticed that tongues are a sign gift which were never, ever used outside the presence of Jews?

OR that gentiles spoke in tongues exclusively for the singular purpose of proving to the Jews that salvation had come to gentiles (1 Cor 1:22) due of course to the fact that the Jews require a sign (not the gentiles).

OR did anyone notice that even if gentiles were granted a sign gift (which they weren't of course, but if they had been, has anyone noticed that not one single woman in the Bible ever spoke in tongues?

Tongues was a vehicle of the gospel to bridge language problems among the Jews. To get excited about the gift RATHER than the content of the gift (the gospel of Jesus Christ) is like getting excited about the wrapper and discarding the Christmas gift within.In case you actually don't know. Corinth wasn't in Israel. ;)

Athanasius
Mar 15th 2008, 03:41 AM
Anyone noticed that tongues are a sign gift which were never, ever used outside the presence of Jews?

1 Corinthians 14:22
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

The Corinthian church, as PP mentioned, was outside of Israel; it wasn't filled with Jews. Tongues, as Paul says here, is a sign for unbelievers, not believers. Unbelievers isn't restricted to the Jews.



OR that gentiles spoke in tongues exclusively for the singular purpose of proving to the Jews that salvation had come to gentiles (1 Cor 1:22) due of course to the fact that the Jews require a sign (not the gentiles).

How did you come to this conclusion?



OR did anyone notice that even if gentiles were granted a sign gift (which they weren't of course, but if they had been, has anyone noticed that not one single woman in the Bible ever spoke in tongues?

What do you mean, 'even if'? And what's your point; are we going to start hating on women now?



Tongues was a vehicle of the gospel to bridge language problems among the Jews. To get excited about the gift RATHER than the content of the gift (the gospel of Jesus Christ) is like getting excited about the wrapper and discarding the Christmas gift within.

Where do you get this from?

Tabernacle
Mar 15th 2008, 06:07 AM
In case you actually don't know. Corinth wasn't in Israel. ;)

An astute observation young padawon, but it was started by, attend by and addressed by JEWS. Not only was the church at Corinth Jewish, letters written to it were by a Jew, to Jews.....

You can try.....but ya can't get around the signs to the Jews NOT the gentiles. They begin with Jews, occur exclusively in the Jew's presence in EVERY case, and end with the Jews.

Next?

Tabernacle
Mar 15th 2008, 06:22 AM
1 Corinthians 14:22
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

Quite right, tongues are for a sign - and your Bible tells you who it is in Scripture that requires a sign.....take a careful look at 1 Cor 1. Your unbelievers isnt everyone.....as your Bible clearly says, its unbelieving Jews, hence they are given the signs.....from Moses down to me an you, you don't ever find a sign done for gentiles.

The Corinthian church, as PP mentioned, was outside of Israel; it wasn't filled with Jews. Tongues, as Paul says here, is a sign for unbelievers, not believers. Unbelievers isn't restricted to the Jews.

Your right, Corinth wasnt exclusively Jewish, but thats of little relevance to the designee of the sign gifts.....and right again, there are unbelievers of Jew & gentile lineage in Corinth, but again, thats of no relevance to whom the signs are given....the gentile Egyptians who saw Moses perform signs & wonders got to see something great, but remember that like all the signs, God said he was performing them to prove something to whom? Read your old rusty Exodus again.....God was demonstrating to HIS OWN ... he was proving his might to them at the expense of Egypt.....We gentiles got to see the signs and even were permitted to participate in one ourselves in Acts in order to prove to the Jews that God had granted us salvation......but thats the end of that.


How did you come to this conclusion?

I didn't, your Bible does it for ya, ya just have to pay attention and not let your pride get in the way so you don't get hacked at not being able to do some signs..... Find me a gentile sign, granted to gentiles for gentiles and performed even one time in the Bible when not in the presence of a Jew and we'll talk........

What do you mean, 'even if'? And what's your point; are we going to start hating on women now?

Hating women? Got one for a mother, a wife, a daughter, a sister, a few aunts....ya gotta really be diggin to get hating women out of my statement. Oh by the way, were you gone just complain or was ya gone find some scripture to contradict that?

Where do you get this from? The Bible.....it says it all.

My comments inserted in italics

ProjectPeter
Mar 15th 2008, 12:00 PM
An astute observation young padawon, but it was started by, attend by and addressed by JEWS. Not only was the church at Corinth Jewish, letters written to it were by a Jew, to Jews.....

You can try.....but ya can't get around the signs to the Jews NOT the gentiles. They begin with Jews, occur exclusively in the Jew's presence in EVERY case, and end with the Jews.

Next?That there were some converted Jews that were part of that church... no doubt. But Corinth wasn't a "Jewish" congregation and that is evident by Paul's writing. You have absolutely no biblical support for pretty much anything that you say. That there was a Jew in the audience or a couple or 100... the gifts weren't a "Jew" thing. It was for the body. That's the main point that folks tend to miss in the whole argument of do they exist today. It wasn't a sign for the Jews... it was a sign for unbelievers as Paul made clear in 1 Corinthians 14. I am rather sure that Paul knew how to spell Jew. He didn't use that word in that passage. ;)

ProjectPeter
Mar 15th 2008, 12:09 PM
My comments inserted in italics
If it was done after salvation was proven to be given to the Gentiles as well... then it would have never went beyond Peter and Cornelius because that is when that became known. Paul's writing to the Corinth church was far beyond that point in time... so again... your making a very weak case.

As to the rest of your post let me put on my Administrator hat. You're new with six post. Tone down the sarcasm about 8 notches out of ten and perhaps folks will take you a bit more serious. As it stands right now... that isn't easy to do.

Athanasius
Mar 15th 2008, 02:17 PM
Your right, Corinth wasnt exclusively Jewish, but thats of little relevance to the designee of the sign gifts.....and right again, there are unbelievers of Jew & gentile lineage in Corinth, but again, thats of no relevance to whom the signs are given....the gentile Egyptians who saw Moses perform signs & wonders got to see something great, but remember that like all the signs, God said he was performing them to prove something to whom? Read your old rusty Exodus again.....God was demonstrating to HIS OWN ... he was proving his might to them at the expense of Egypt.....We gentiles got to see the signs and even were permitted to participate in one ourselves in Acts in order to prove to the Jews that God had granted us salvation......but thats the end of that.

Just to get this out of the way first; you've got such an attitude that I don't even think it's worth responding. . . . But here I go anyway.

Galatians 3:28-39
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

There is neither Jew, nor Greek in Christ Jesus? All who belong to Christ are Abraham's descendants? We only possessed the gifts so that we could know God has also granted us salvation? We know that's not the case. I'm sure you've heard it said, witnesses to all the world.

Drawing your argument from Exodus is non-sequitur; it's comparing two different situations and attempting to topically draw connections. If you wanted to show that the signs were meant for the Jews, exclusively, then perhaps you should have made your case from Isaiah 6:9-10?:hmm:



I didn't, your Bible does it for ya, ya just have to pay attention and not let your pride get in the way so you don't get hacked at not being able to do some signs..... Find me a gentile sign, granted to gentiles for gentiles and performed even one time in the Bible when not in the presence of a Jew and we'll talk........

Not in the presence of a Jew? How did you come up with this ridiculous qualifier? The Corinthian church--gentiles. Were there Jews there, yes. But like PP said, it was a gentile congregation. You have absolutely nothing to base on which to base your premiss that the gifts had to have been displayed outside any Jewish influence. It's ignorance of the cultural setting. Going back to Exodus, which isn't rusty, by the way, does not follow what you're trying to say with the gifts of the Spirit of the New Testament.



Hating women? Got one for a mother, a wife, a daughter, a sister, a few aunts....ya gotta really be diggin to get hating women out of my statement. Oh by the way, were you gone just complain or was ya gone find some scripture to contradict that?

"Not one single woman in the Bible. . . " Meaning, what's your point?

I have no problem discussing this--but not with someone who has your type of attitude, 'young padawan'.

Tabernacle
Mar 15th 2008, 03:04 PM
I see, forgive me - when I noted the sarcasm in yours and another response to my post, I thought perhaps that was the prefered method of banter....... Sorry you think I have an attitude. Duely noted. I'll change the tone of the correspondance henceforth and consider myself quite thoroughly reprimanded.

Not much point in discussion though, the comments following my post contain no scriptural support for the differing views but rather, simply effort to set forth opinion rather than scriptural evidence. Corinth historically is quite well documented to be a Jewish church in which there gentile converts & unbelievers. This is so well demonstrated by Geography, History and Bibliography that trying to argue to is rather moot.

The facts remain standing - not one verse in the Bible supports the contentions that sign gifts ever were to anyone except Jews. As I said, ALL verses in every single case demonstrate Jewish signs consistent with 1 Cor 1:22 (which I noted had not been contested with scripture, but rather with merely more opinion).

My post was meant to call to the attention the simple fact that Biblically it is impossible to substantiate tongues (or any other Jewish sign gift) as being for today or for gentiles at any point in Biblical history.

I supported this with scripture. The counter arguements were sarcastic insinuations unsupported by anything but personal opinion. Again I apologize for my comments - when someone hurls sarcase "oh now we're going to start hating women" for ex, I assume they're inviting a rather curt discussion.

ProjectPeter
Mar 15th 2008, 03:12 PM
The only passage that I saw that you offered was verse 1:22 in 1 Corinthians. That the Jews look for signs and the Greeks wisdom. Paul goes on to explain that in pretty much the entire 2 chapter.

1 Corinthians 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.
4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
6 ¶Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND WHICH HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE SHOULD INSTRUCT HIM ? But we have the mind of Christ.


That power of the Spirit.. that's the prefered Pauline method of preaching the gospel. Again... as Paul explained in talking of the gifts in chapter 14... tongues is for the unbeliever. Doesn't matter if it is Jew or Greek.

Tabernacle
Mar 15th 2008, 03:14 PM
Oh sorry I didn't address your Galatians comment that everyone is the same in Christ..... As it relates to salvation, quite correct. You quoted Galatians though I noticed - which is a book written to Jews primarily and gentiles secondarily to address works based salvation. The book relates to salvation coming in of Grace through Faith right?

As it relates to salvation - there is no merrit in being a Jew, or gentile or a child of Abraham..... but those references have nothing to do with the sign gifts being Jewish.

Sorry sir, but us old gentile "dogs" as Jesus called us, must take careful note that when Jesus went to Samaria (the gentile church age of 2000 yrs) for 2 days - he didn't give a single sign, not one miracle....hmm....notice that? Two days with the Gentiles and Jesus didn't do one single miracle or wonder. Why not we wonder? Because we're expected to believe without seeing.....the evidence of things 'not seen'. A wicked and perverse generation seeketh after a sign -- who was he speaking to at the time?

Tabernacle
Mar 15th 2008, 03:27 PM
Sorry about that - I wasn't referring to 1 Cor 1:22 only, but EVERY verse (I don't have time to list them) containing ANY miracle in the ENTIRE Bible. If we follow them all, every one, out - we find the miracle / sign gifts begin with Moses (a Jew) to perform in front of the (Jews) to prove something to them (1 Cor 1:22) and thus it remains throughout the Bible.

It isn't offensive, so we mustn't take it that way. We just don't merrit signs.....and so none of them are ever performed for us or by us unless it is in the presence of Jews and for the exclusive reason of convincing the Jews of something that being of course ONLY that salvation had been granted to the Gentiles....which the Jews wouldn't have believed without a sign - so the Lord had a Jew go preach to them, had some Jewish witnesses with him and then sent them with the account of what they saw to whom? Jews in Jerusalem.....

The scripture references - all of them, demonstrate this clearly. Any counter view must be rendered on opinion through misappropriation of the verses for NO verse contradicts the context. Thats why no one who opposes this fact, will be able to demonstrate one single verse featuring a gentile performing a sign gift of healing, prophecy, or miracles or tongues...et al, OUTSIDE the presence of the Jews.

That shouldn't make us mad....

Athanasius
Mar 15th 2008, 03:45 PM
Oh sorry I didn't address your Galatians comment that everyone is the same in Christ..... As it relates to salvation, quite correct. You quoted Galatians though I noticed - which is a book written to Jews primarily and gentiles secondarily to address works based salvation. The book relates to salvation coming in of Grace through Faith right?

As it relates to salvation - there is no merrit in being a Jew, or gentile or a child of Abraham..... but those references have nothing to do with the sign gifts being Jewish.

Sorry sir, but us old gentile "dogs" as Jesus called us, must take careful note that when Jesus went to Samaria (the gentile church age of 2000 yrs) for 2 days - he didn't give a single sign, not one miracle....hmm....notice that? Two days with the Gentiles and Jesus didn't do one single miracle or wonder. Why not we wonder? Because we're expected to believe without seeing.....the evidence of things 'not seen'. A wicked and perverse generation seeketh after a sign -- who was he speaking to at the time?

The church in Galatia was similar to the church in Corinth in that it was comprised of converted Jews and Gentiles. I agree that Galatians is primarily about Grace through faith; but that doesn't mean the entire book is restricted that one arena. The point is this: there is nothing to suggest that the signs weren't meant solely for unbelieving Jews (which would be eisegetical on your part), but unbelievers. Case in point; there is neither Jew, Greek; Free nor slave in Christ--we are the same.

All I see is eisegetics and arguments from silence:rolleyes:

redeemedbyhim
Mar 15th 2008, 06:39 PM
Concering women speaking in tongues:
Acts 1:8-15
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Acts 2: 1-4

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Tabernacle
Mar 15th 2008, 07:25 PM
Concering women speaking in tongues:
Acts 1:8-15
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Hello Redeemed, good name. You point out some great scriptures - but notice carefully to whom they're addressed: Notice that YE isn't everyone, but only the Apostles (Jews) who are gathered in the upper room...and only they received power. The writer said they would be witnesses in Jerusalem (which obviously ain't us, but rather its the Apostles gathered there. Their testimony and witness resulted in conversions unto Christianity which eventually spread over the world. In vs 14 notice that its "these continued" which doesn't include US today, but them back there. Note too that you find the Apostles demonstrated that power - not everyone else. See Acts 8 particularly verse 18 where Simon saw the miracles which were done by the Apostles (not every convert) and that by the laying on the Apostles' hand (not anyone else's) the Holy Ghost was given. -- Note also that you don't find any gentile's speaking in tongues or working miracles.

Acts 2: 1-4

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. They ALL Apostles....not everyone and not one Gentile was gathered with them in that upper room....thats important, and consistent with the Bible since salvation hasn't come to the gentile until Acts 10.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Great Scriptures no doubt - but not a gentile in sight, and a careful read shows you that only the Apostles (who we know are exclusively Jewish) received the gifts in this chapter and only the Apostles spoke in tongues. Not anyone else and not a single gentile.

The Day (notice it was a specific day and affected the Jews only on that day) of Pentecost is in Acts pre-gentile salvation and although a wonderful event that assures all who call on the name of Christ receive the indwelling of God the Holy Ghost, that day wasn't for us, it was for the Jewish Apostles. Notice that Christ didn't tell everyone in Jerusalem or all the world to gather in Jerusalem and wait for the comforter.....he told just the Apostles.

Misappropriation of Scripture is a terrible problem in churches the world over, we must be cautious to read all scripture, study all scripture, learn from all scripture, search out all scripture - and while ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction - certainly we know that not all scripture may be literally applied to all people in all dispensations. Sign gifts being just one of many cases in point.

ProjectPeter
Mar 15th 2008, 07:33 PM
Sorry about that - I wasn't referring to 1 Cor 1:22 only, but EVERY verse (I don't have time to list them) containing ANY miracle in the ENTIRE Bible. If we follow them all, every one, out - we find the miracle / sign gifts begin with Moses (a Jew) to perform in front of the (Jews) to prove something to them (1 Cor 1:22) and thus it remains throughout the Bible.

It isn't offensive, so we mustn't take it that way. We just don't merrit signs.....and so none of them are ever performed for us or by us unless it is in the presence of Jews and for the exclusive reason of convincing the Jews of something that being of course ONLY that salvation had been granted to the Gentiles....which the Jews wouldn't have believed without a sign - so the Lord had a Jew go preach to them, had some Jewish witnesses with him and then sent them with the account of what they saw to whom? Jews in Jerusalem.....

The scripture references - all of them, demonstrate this clearly. Any counter view must be rendered on opinion through misappropriation of the verses for NO verse contradicts the context. Thats why no one who opposes this fact, will be able to demonstrate one single verse featuring a gentile performing a sign gift of healing, prophecy, or miracles or tongues...et al, OUTSIDE the presence of the Jews.

That shouldn't make us mad....
I just want to know where you get this idea that the Corinth and Galatia churches were Jewish churches with a Gentile or two hanging out? I've heard a lot of arguments for this issue but I've never heard of a Scholar one that would agree that these churches were Jewish churches. The letters themselves so disprove that it is amazing to hear that argument. Probably the largest Jewish congregated church that Paul would have written too was in fact Romans (at that time). If he wrote Hebrews then that would be another but I'm not sold that it was Paul that wrote it. Paul was the apostle to the Gentile's and while he always practiced to the Jew first... most times he was outright rejected save a few folk. One need but read Acts to see that crystal clear. It was generally Jewish folks that came around and caused him grief... not attend the church.

redeemedbyhim
Mar 15th 2008, 07:46 PM
Hi Tabernacle,
Thank you for being so respectful.

I was only addressing the fact that there were women in the upper room, not that they were gentiles and I can't see where the women were excluded in the experience.

So, carry on gentlemen, I'm enjoying the thread.

Tabernacle
Mar 15th 2008, 09:01 PM
Try to address two comments by two different folks.....may be confusing.

First, as to gentile preeminence in the "pauline epistles" - No disrespect intended by this, but NO letter or Epistle or Book is addressed specifically to the gentiles. No church named in scripture was predominantely gentile and although I am sure there were some, no letters were written specifically to them in the Bible.

Second, while some of the Pualine epistles may be said to be addressed to Church age Christians (comprised of both Jew and gentile) that would bear little relevance upon things uniquely Jewish..... Abrahamic covenant, promises to Jacob, et al.

Third - were there gentiles in Galatia, Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth? Of course. But again, going back to the as yet unanswered challenge - you still don't find a gentile performing signs, ,including tongues, outside the presence of and for the unique purpose of convincing a Jew of something.

Running off to Joel 2 in vain effort to get us gentiles in with the Jews on some sign gifts we find no mention of tongues (how odd) and no mention of gentiles as it relates to the signs named therein either! [as usual].

-- Next thought, a woman? in the upper room? uhh.....no offense, but where's that in scripture? Sure....some women, probably lots, were women. But ya ain't gone find a woman Apostle in a thousand miles of scripture and you can't find a woman ever performing a sign (jew or gentile) in a Bible. So that one has me rather stretching the eyebrows.

Friends - again, no offense - but have you noticed that now we're trying to get a letter written to gentiles in the hopes of getting a vague inclusion of gentiles into Jewish signs? Notice again that if you follow every single miracle in the whole entire Bible - every instance is Jew. Performed by a Jew in ALL instances but Acts 10 and in that singular exception - performed consistently with ALL other signs and wonders, FOR a JEW to be convinced of something.

All due respect to your right to say, "your nuts". But if that be the case, wouldn't it seem possible to demonstrate my absurd notions by quoting a verse wherein a gentile demonstrates a sign gift use just ONE single time outside the presence of a Jew? I mean, isn't that so really very easy if I am wrong?

Your all giving great scriptures and vague inclusive opinions - but not one verse in all of the 66 books of the Bible to prove your conjecture?

Sorry guys..... Your Bible says only Jews require a sign. Your Bible says tongues are for a sign. Your Bible NEVER records a sign outside the presence of Jews. Your Bible never records a woman performing a sign.
Moreover, not only that the signs are exclusively Jewish, but more - they demonstrably end just as it was said they would.

I don't want to risk being banned for these simple truths, but doesn't this tell you that any "church" claiming the present day practice of tongues is like a Biblical circus?

ProjectPeter
Mar 16th 2008, 12:35 AM
Try to address two comments by two different folks.....may be confusing.

First, as to gentile preeminence in the "pauline epistles" - No disrespect intended by this, but NO letter or Epistle or Book is addressed specifically to the gentiles. No church named in scripture was predominantely gentile and although I am sure there were some, no letters were written specifically to them in the Bible.

Second, while some of the Pualine epistles may be said to be addressed to Church age Christians (comprised of both Jew and gentile) that would bear little relevance upon things uniquely Jewish..... Abrahamic covenant, promises to Jacob, et al.

Third - were there gentiles in Galatia, Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth? Of course. But again, going back to the as yet unanswered challenge - you still don't find a gentile performing signs, ,including tongues, outside the presence of and for the unique purpose of convincing a Jew of something.

Running off to Joel 2 in vain effort to get us gentiles in with the Jews on some sign gifts we find no mention of tongues (how odd) and no mention of gentiles as it relates to the signs named therein either! [as usual].

-- Next thought, a woman? in the upper room? uhh.....no offense, but where's that in scripture? Sure....some women, probably lots, were women. But ya ain't gone find a woman Apostle in a thousand miles of scripture and you can't find a woman ever performing a sign (jew or gentile) in a Bible. So that one has me rather stretching the eyebrows.

Friends - again, no offense - but have you noticed that now we're trying to get a letter written to gentiles in the hopes of getting a vague inclusion of gentiles into Jewish signs? Notice again that if you follow every single miracle in the whole entire Bible - every instance is Jew. Performed by a Jew in ALL instances but Acts 10 and in that singular exception - performed consistently with ALL other signs and wonders, FOR a JEW to be convinced of something.

All due respect to your right to say, "your nuts". But if that be the case, wouldn't it seem possible to demonstrate my absurd notions by quoting a verse wherein a gentile demonstrates a sign gift use just ONE single time outside the presence of a Jew? I mean, isn't that so really very easy if I am wrong?

Your all giving great scriptures and vague inclusive opinions - but not one verse in all of the 66 books of the Bible to prove your conjecture?

Sorry guys..... Your Bible says only Jews require a sign. Your Bible says tongues are for a sign. Your Bible NEVER records a sign outside the presence of Jews. Your Bible never records a woman performing a sign.
Moreover, not only that the signs are exclusively Jewish, but more - they demonstrably end just as it was said they would.

I don't want to risk being banned for these simple truths, but doesn't this tell you that any "church" claiming the present day practice of tongues is like a Biblical circus?It's a ludicrous request. The only account of a specific person in the entire New Testament was Christ. Then we have the Acts of the Apostles which covers Peter and John primarily. From that point on... it was simply letters to the churches which didn't go into the walk of Billy, Johny and Sue.

Your idea that the letters written by Paul were to Jewish churches goes so totally against Scripture (Paul, the apostle to the Gentile) and any scholar out there who has any kind of a reputation.

The gifts of the Spirit weren't "Jewish". It was for the body of Christ which consisted of both Jew and Gentile. It was for the unbeliever... not simply a sign for the Jew. For the unbelieving Jew then fine. But just as well for the unbelieving Gentile.

danield
Mar 16th 2008, 01:54 AM
You know tabernacle, I passed over a lot of your post because I was not sure what you had meant but I quoted something that I felt was important for all to understand. However after reading many of your responses I want to challenge you to rethink some of what you have said. I am not sure how your opinion had been shaped from what you have read in the bible concerning the Jews and the Gentiles but I really want to perhaps break your foundation on the Jewish being the only recipients of Gifts from the Holy Spirit.



Sorry sir, but us old gentile "dogs" as Jesus called us, must take careful note that when Jesus went to Samaria (the gentile church age of 2000 yrs) for 2 days - he didn't give a single sign, not one miracle....hmm....notice that? Two days with the Gentiles and Jesus didn't do one single miracle or wonder. Why not we wonder? Because we're expected to believe without seeing.....the evidence of things 'not seen'. A wicked and perverse generation seeketh after a sign -- who was he speaking to at the time?

I can see how you feel how Jesus’ non healing action at Samaria might reflect his feeling to us Gentile dogs, but I do want to point out that perhaps no one specifically asked Jesus to physically heal them during those two days. The “gift” he brought was eternal salvation with out having to go to Jerusalem to worship the father.



John 4:21:24
Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews. 23 But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. 24 For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.
This statement clearly shows me that Jesus is giving us all the opportunity of salvation no matter where you are or what heritage you may be. And that salvation comes through him because when he tells them that salvation comes through the Jews he is not meaning that it comes through Mosses and his descendants but from Christ himself because he was a Jew. This is a much greater gift than healing any one individual. As far as a sign for the gentiles, would not the previous passage pass for a great sign when he told the woman at the well how many husbands she had? This information was only known to her! This is what peeked the interest of many at the village and they encouraged him to stay and preach his message for 2 days. Also, upon leaving he encountered a gentile at Cana where he healed his son who was a gentile.
Also let’s look at how Jesus feels about us Gentiles “the Dogs” in Matthew 15:21-28.



21 Then Jesus left Galilee and went north to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Gentile[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2015;&version=51;#fen-NLT-23631e)] woman who lived there came to him, pleading, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely.”
23 But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. “Tell her to go away,” they said. “She is bothering us with all her begging.”
24 Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.”
25 But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!”
26 Jesus responded, “It isn’t right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.”
27 She replied, “That’s true, Lord, but even dogs are allowed to eat the scraps that fall beneath their masters’ table.”
28 “Dear woman,” Jesus said to her, “your faith is great. Your request is granted.” And her daughter was instantly healed.

I know on the surface it looks like Jesus was looking down on us gentiles, but when I think of my lord and savior I just can not envision him actually thinking of us as dogs. Instead I think he was trying to test the faith of this woman. I just do not think it was a slant to all gentiles because if that were true then why would he offer the gift of salvation to us at all? There are other places where Jesus heals a “gentile” where he talks great things about us Gentiles. Lets look at Matthew 8 where Christ heals the Roman officer servant from a distance because this officer believes that if Christ just gives the word it will be done. And this was Christ’s own words about this Gentile.

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed. Turning to those who were following him, he said, “I tell you the truth, I haven’t seen faith like this in all Israel! 11 And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world—from east and west—and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. 12 But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Notice that this passage happened prior to Matthew 15. So he had to think better of us than just Gentile “Dogs”. He is also showing us that many Gentiles will be awarded the gift of everlasting life so why could we not be awarded the gift of the Holy Spirit in our hearts? Is the Gentile worthy of the greatest gift of all but not worthy of being able to speak in tongues or any other gift that the Holy Spirit has. I challenge you to see that speaking in tongues is a much lesser gift than the gift of being able to sit at the feast in the kingdom of God! Also notice how many gentiles will not be eating table scraps like dogs but sitting along side our Jewish brothers! For the kingdom of God is not a Jewish kingdom, but God’s kingdom.

I also feel that Act 10:44-48 needs to be in print to refute your claims.


44 Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. 45 The Jewish believers[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2010;&version=51;#fen-NLT-27268e)] who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter asked, 47 “Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?” 48 So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days.
In essence your argument is that the Holy Spirit only gives the gift of tongues to the gentiles to help sanctify their offer of salvation only in the presence of Jews. And I say that the Holy Spirit can and does award gifts to Jews and Gentiles alike because they are a member of Gods kingdom. The prerequisite is not being Jewish but being an accepted member of God’s kingdom. Obviously these gifts are not given to everyone as I have stated before but are indeed special gifts from the Lord. And these gifts are facilitated through the Holy Spirit. I also claim that the Holy Spirit has not changed, and can indeed bestow these gifts at Gods command.

Please excuse this post if it is out of place, I began writing it earlier today but I got sidetracked and I had to save it. I need to continue reading your thoughts on the subject to get a clearer understanding of your thought process on the topic at hand. Please know I offer my suggestions on these scriptures in the upmost respect and not in discourse. You defiantly have some deep rooted opinions about the scriptures and I do hope this exchange will be a fruitful one for all. However I do fall in the camp with Peter and his views.
God Bless.

danield
Mar 16th 2008, 03:28 AM
It's a ludicrous request. The only account of a specific person in the entire New Testament was Christ. Then we have the Acts of the Apostles which covers Peter and John primarily. From that point on... it was simply letters to the churches which didn't go into the walk of Billy, Johny and Sue.

Your idea that the letters written by Paul were to Jewish churches goes so totally against Scripture (Paul, the apostle to the Gentile) and any scholar out there who has any kind of a reputation.

The gifts of the Spirit weren't "Jewish". It was for the body of Christ which consisted of both Jew and Gentile. It was for the unbeliever... not simply a sign for the Jew. For the unbelieving Jew then fine. But just as well for the unbelieving Gentile.


This is the truth tabenacle. I am not sure why this is a hard concept for you to grasp, but the power of the Holy Spirit is not power restricted only for the Jewish people but for God's people because the Holy Spirit comes from God not the Jews. I do not want to belittle the importance of the Jewish people in scripture but instead I want to show the importance of God's kingdom over any one group of people. Our forefathers are not what is important but rather what is in your heart. Weather you are a Jew or a gentile, we should all rejoice that Christ came to earth and briefly smiled on all of us and offered all of us salvation! And we should be as equally overjoyed that the Holy Spirit remains today to guild us in our hearts!

Tabernacle
Mar 16th 2008, 04:21 PM
Very good points for sure, but did you not notice that you render a view of inclusivity and opinion unsupported by scripture references?

I can see you've devoted a great deal of consideration to your response, and for that I am thankful it provoked such thought...that demonstrates sincerity.

You would admit that we can be sincere, but sincerely wrong? I admit that of my own views...and doctrines....we're men, and men are foolish and wicked at their best state according to Scripture.

May I ask you to entertain a notion? Not bragging here, but commenting for a basis of view - I have 20+ yrs of very serious Bible study (in most instances 2 to 12 hours a day every day for 20+ yrs), A formal 4 year Seminary education from a prominant Seminary and additionally I've added 15 yrs of study of the writings and commentaries of some of the greatest theologians (as far as men go) that the last 500 yrs have produced. It is odd then, wouldn't you say, that no one I've read and no instructor or professor I've studied under taught that Jew and Gentile are the same once they're post salvation and hence entitled to same promises in every instance. The notion quite contradicts scripture in many many instances.

Yes salvation by grace through faith knows no racial or geneological distinctions - and yes, all NT books hold great truths applicable to N.T. Christians regardless of heritage.

Yet that is a far cry from determining that all things to which the Jews are entitled and all things to which promises were made for them are now for everyone in Christ.

I offer this is why you must argue your doctrine from an ambiguous & vague dialogue rather than simple pointing at an instance in scripture which supports your view.

You said, the NT doesn't give an instance in anyone's life specifically. Quite my point -because it does give an instance specifically in support of ALL BIBLE DOCTRINES does it not?

I mean any doctrinal position I hold, I can take you to a Bible verse if not dozens and show you how this applies directly to me, now.

Contrarily and interestingly I've found that in my 20 years of speaking one on one with Christians who were involved in the tongues movement, roughly 7 or 8 out of 10 have told me plainly they fake it, make it up, and were duped into it as children or young or immature Christians OR they were saved in a church that practiced it and under pressure to fit, they let themselves be led into faking it for conformities' sake.

Just conversationally, I've also found that when you ask someone in the tongues movement to explain the doctrine itself - the vast majority can't so they get defensive and try to argue an "all inclusive" view as I see here and likewise using no verses to support the view.

This shouldn't be though a source of anger and name calling should it? I notice that many were angry with Jesus' doctrine too and they too tried to make the Bible fit what they'd always believed....the pharisees preached all inclusivism as son's of Abraham didn't they? They tried to make the Bible say things it didn't say.....

Brethren, salvation is not of Jew nor gentile but of grace - and yes, as it relates to salvation there is a Jew inwardly & spiritually rather than he who is a Jew outwardly, this is plain and easy kindergarden level stuff, sure.

BUT to fail to see that beyond salvation there are many differences between Jew and gentile yet remaining? Did not Paul tell the gentiles they were sometimes strangers from the covenants of promise and without God in the world? Salvation brought them into the age of Grace through Faith, but he makes clear that it is merely and singularly the fall of the Jews which made even that inclusion possible......and does he not yet tell them that there is much privelege and distinction to being a Jew and as such he warns them to watch out for pride lest they be tossed right back out.....

We're digressing again though - the doctrine is simple, my challenge remains unanswered as it has even in the face of three pentecostal preacher friends of mine who have admitted in strict confidence to me that they too had arrived at this conclusion and couldn't defend their doctrine and that they knew it was fake. Years of indoctrination and the pressure of family and friends is strong. I feel sorry for them, can you imagine a preacher who knows he's preaching something wrong?

Let God be true and every man a liar...... I've enjoyed discussing this with you and hope those of you who are angry will not let the sun set before you pray it out.

Athanasius
Mar 16th 2008, 04:42 PM
Very good points for sure, but did you not notice that you render a view of inclusivity and opinion unsupported by scripture references?

I can see you've devoted a great deal of consideration to your response, and for that I am thankful it provoked such thought...that demonstrates sincerity.

You would admit that we can be sincere, but sincerely wrong? I admit that of my own views...and doctrines....we're men, and men are foolish and wicked at their best state according to Scripture.

May I ask you to entertain a notion? Not bragging here, but commenting for a basis of view - I have 20+ yrs of very serious Bible study (in most instances 2 to 12 hours a day every day for 20+ yrs), A formal 4 year Seminary education from a prominant Seminary and additionally I've added 15 yrs of study of the writings and commentaries of some of the greatest theologians (as far as men go) that the last 500 yrs have produced.

I like what Isaiah had to say:

Isaiah 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!

You see, you may admit that you 'could' be 'sincerely wrong'--but you don't expect yourself nor believe yourself to be wrong. It's like admitting that the family you grew up with may not be your biological family; it's the intellectual thing to do, to answer 'no'. Now, we're 'throwing' loads of scripture into our replies. . . . You've only posted opinion, and some sort of credentials that you feel it's important for us to know. Well sorry, let me set this straight. You referred to 'every verse in the entire Bible (concerning miracles)'. But even then, that's a lot of verses and you weren't nearly specific. Here's the thing; you can be the most educated person in the world and still be mistaken. By the way, if we're only entertaining the notion of your credentials, does that mean they aren't really your credentials? Just a notion?

Personally, I enjoy the work of Menzies and Menzies, Stronstad and a few others who, in their own right, forced deep discussion over the gifts of the Spirit, tongues as initial evidence of salvation, and tongues for corporate and personal edification. You're talking past us, arguing from silence, and providing no scripture, only your opinion on what this or that scripture might be saying.

I'll be honest, some of the things you're saying and implying are getting pretty ridiculous; You aren't Jesus, and we're not pharisees (Well, I should hope!).

Tabernacle
Mar 16th 2008, 07:59 PM
I've posted no opinion, you have posted nothing but opinion. I've not attacked you individually, and you've done nothing but..... I've asked for your verses supporting gentile tongues..... you've given not one but instead tried to make a Jewish book written to Jews by a Jew (1 Cor of course) out to be a gentile book written to a gentile church? You of course argued against that - surprisingly enough considering that letter was obviously written to Jews - as evidence everywhere in, but see verse 1 of chapter 10 for just one example "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” I suppose this is where you go off on another wild goose chase to prove these werent really Jews right? I suppose you'll forget that Paul referred to the Jews as his brethren....his countrymen.... Again, sorry but your conjecture that 1 Cor is a gentile book to a gentile church is entertaining, but it isn't BIble.

You've claimed that my position that the letter was written to Jews is "ridiculous" (which I offer is a quite hilarious in light of the obvious fact that Paul is writing to Jews specifically, and gentiles only by default due their presence in the church)..... "our fathers" (certainly not gentile) being led out of Egypt.

Lastly - I've given you sound doctrine proving irrefutably that NOT A SINGLE verse can be found to substantiate tongues outside the presence of Jews and NOT ONE case of a gentile using a sign gift any other time.

You've responded with wonderful accusations, insults and calling me ridiculous - a most impressive method of defending a doctrinal heresy.....all talk, no Bible.

I continue to wait, as do some others here, for you to give us a single verse demonstrating ONE instance of a gentile speaking in tongues apart from the work of proving something to Jews. I wait for you give a verse demonstrating ONE single case where ANY sign gift was performed by ANY gentile outside the presence of Jews.

You must admit, my Christian brother, that your doctrine could better be supported by quoting some Bible verses rather than insulting anyone who asks you to use the Bible.

ProjectPeter
Mar 16th 2008, 08:28 PM
Very good points for sure, but did you not notice that you render a view of inclusivity and opinion unsupported by scripture references?

I can see you've devoted a great deal of consideration to your response, and for that I am thankful it provoked such thought...that demonstrates sincerity.

You would admit that we can be sincere, but sincerely wrong? I admit that of my own views...and doctrines....we're men, and men are foolish and wicked at their best state according to Scripture.

May I ask you to entertain a notion? Not bragging here, but commenting for a basis of view - I have 20+ yrs of very serious Bible study (in most instances 2 to 12 hours a day every day for 20+ yrs), A formal 4 year Seminary education from a prominant Seminary and additionally I've added 15 yrs of study of the writings and commentaries of some of the greatest theologians (as far as men go) that the last 500 yrs have produced. It is odd then, wouldn't you say, that no one I've read and no instructor or professor I've studied under taught that Jew and Gentile are the same once they're post salvation and hence entitled to same promises in every instance. The notion quite contradicts scripture in many many instances.

Yes salvation by grace through faith knows no racial or geneological distinctions - and yes, all NT books hold great truths applicable to N.T. Christians regardless of heritage.

Yet that is a far cry from determining that all things to which the Jews are entitled and all things to which promises were made for them are now for everyone in Christ.

I offer this is why you must argue your doctrine from an ambiguous & vague dialogue rather than simple pointing at an instance in scripture which supports your view.

You said, the NT doesn't give an instance in anyone's life specifically. Quite my point -because it does give an instance specifically in support of ALL BIBLE DOCTRINES does it not? It doesn't give those instances because the letters to the church aren't about individual people but the body whole. The personal letters are evident but even those aren't about the life of this person or that save a short letter to Philemon.

As to your commenting on the amount of studies that you have done and the degrees that you have... rest assured that you're not the Lone Ranger there and I didn't just start up last year or so. Been around a long time and studied more than most folks would even begin to imagine possible. ;) Yet I totally disagree with you on most points so far.

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" --
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 ¶Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.

You try to make it different when Paul says otherwise.



I mean any doctrinal position I hold, I can take you to a Bible verse if not dozens and show you how this applies directly to me, now.

Contrarily and interestingly I've found that in my 20 years of speaking one on one with Christians who were involved in the tongues movement, roughly 7 or 8 out of 10 have told me plainly they fake it, make it up, and were duped into it as children or young or immature Christians OR they were saved in a church that practiced it and under pressure to fit, they let themselves be led into faking it for conformities' sake. Yeah... and so what? The fact that folks fake it doesn't negate at all the reality of it. Using your logic we can say "CULTS! That proves that God isn't real." It is devoid of simple logic and common sense truth be told.



Just conversationally, I've also found that when you ask someone in the tongues movement to explain the doctrine itself - the vast majority can't so they get defensive and try to argue an "all inclusive" view as I see here and likewise using no verses to support the view. THere ya go... see above. And there have been many verses in this thread for you to gander at. So trying to use the "as I see it here" thing falls short of the actual truth.


This shouldn't be though a source of anger and name calling should it? I notice that many were angry with Jesus' doctrine too and they too tried to make the Bible fit what they'd always believed....the pharisees preached all inclusivism as son's of Abraham didn't they? They tried to make the Bible say things it didn't say.....You mean things like "THe gifts of the Spirit are only for the Jew?" Yeah... folks do that all the time unfortunately. See above again though.


Brethren, salvation is not of Jew nor gentile but of grace - and yes, as it relates to salvation there is a Jew inwardly & spiritually rather than he who is a Jew outwardly, this is plain and easy kindergarden level stuff, sure.

BUT to fail to see that beyond salvation there are many differences between Jew and gentile yet remaining? Did not Paul tell the gentiles they were sometimes strangers from the covenants of promise and without God in the world? Salvation brought them into the age of Grace through Faith, but he makes clear that it is merely and singularly the fall of the Jews which made even that inclusion possible......and does he not yet tell them that there is much privelege and distinction to being a Jew and as such he warns them to watch out for pride lest they be tossed right back out.....

We're digressing again though - the doctrine is simple, my challenge remains unanswered as it has even in the face of three pentecostal preacher friends of mine who have admitted in strict confidence to me that they too had arrived at this conclusion and couldn't defend their doctrine and that they knew it was fake. Years of indoctrination and the pressure of family and friends is strong. I feel sorry for them, can you imagine a preacher who knows he's preaching something wrong?Yeah... and I actually caught Moby Dick one day... but I left my camera at home. :rolleyes: Your challenge remains unanswered because it is so far fetched there is no answer other than "huh?"




Let God be true and every man a liar...... I've enjoyed discussing this with you and hope those of you who are angry will not let the sun set before you pray it out.Ditto.

ProjectPeter
Mar 16th 2008, 08:45 PM
I've posted no opinion, you have posted nothing but opinion. I've not attacked you individually, and you've done nothing but..... I've asked for your verses supporting gentile tongues..... you've given not one but instead tried to make a Jewish book written to Jews by a Jew (1 Cor of course) out to be a gentile book written to a gentile church? You of course argued against that - surprisingly enough considering that letter was obviously written to Jews - as evidence everywhere in, but see verse 1 of chapter 10 for just one example "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” I suppose this is where you go off on another wild goose chase to prove these werent really Jews right? I suppose you'll forget that Paul referred to the Jews as his brethren....his countrymen.... Again, sorry but your conjecture that 1 Cor is a gentile book to a gentile church is entertaining, but it isn't BIble.

You've claimed that my position that the letter was written to Jews is "ridiculous" (which I offer is a quite hilarious in light of the obvious fact that Paul is writing to Jews specifically, and gentiles only by default due their presence in the church)..... "our fathers" (certainly not gentile) being led out of Egypt.

Lastly - I've given you sound doctrine proving irrefutably that NOT A SINGLE verse can be found to substantiate tongues outside the presence of Jews and NOT ONE case of a gentile using a sign gift any other time.

You've responded with wonderful accusations, insults and calling me ridiculous - a most impressive method of defending a doctrinal heresy.....all talk, no Bible.

I continue to wait, as do some others here, for you to give us a single verse demonstrating ONE instance of a gentile speaking in tongues apart from the work of proving something to Jews. I wait for you give a verse demonstrating ONE single case where ANY sign gift was performed by ANY gentile outside the presence of Jews.

You must admit, my Christian brother, that your doctrine could better be supported by quoting some Bible verses rather than insulting anyone who asks you to use the Bible.
Uh... You seem to ignore a fact that you cannot nor will you prove using Scripture. Corinth wasn't a "Jewish" church. You are the one that keeps saying show me... prove that as fact because I guarantee you that you can't save some oddball commentator that believes as you do no matter that the vast majority wouldn't do that at all. Galatians wasn't Jewish either as you lay out although they were being taught they needed to be. That was the exact reason that Paul went to Gentiles with the letter from the Apostles. He didn't take that letter to the "Jewish" Churches... the whole thing was about the Gentiles.

Acts 15

1 And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
4 And when they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

If they were Jews already... they'd of been circumcised already.

6 ¶And the apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 "And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12 ¶And all the multitude kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13 And after they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15 "And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 `AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17 IN ORDER THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,´
18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM OF OLD.
19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
22 ¶Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas -- Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23 and they sent this letter by them, " The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
30 ¶So, when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
31 And when they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
32 And Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message.
33 And after they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out.
34 But it seemed good to Silas to remain there.
35 But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching, with many others also, the word of the Lord.
36 ¶And after some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are."
37 And Barnabas was desirous of taking John, called Mark, along with them also.
38 But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work.
39 And there arose such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus.
40 But Paul chose Silas and departed, being committed by the brethren to the grace of the Lord.
41 And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

Acts 16:1 And he came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek,
2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium.
3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
4 Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees, which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.
5 So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily.


Rightly divide the Scripture.

Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised
8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles),
9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.
10 They only asked us to remember the poor -- the very thing I also was eager to do.

Paul did not go out and start Jewish Churches even though I am sure there were Jews in the church. He started Gentile fellowships. I could go through Acts and post the number of times when Paul, going to the Jew first, was rejected and left taking his message to the Gentiles thus fellowships began. You are making an argument that simply falls short based on one major error... that the churches Paul started were Jewish ones.

Athanasius
Mar 16th 2008, 09:06 PM
I've posted no opinion, you have posted nothing but opinion. I've not attacked you individually, and you've done nothing but.....

Properly stated; we've both posted opinion. One of us has posted scripture alongside that opinion, the other hasn't and has given their opinion on scripture without also posting the scripture they're referencing.

If anyone reading this ever found it an urgent thing to look back through the thread to see who is who, I'm sure they wouldn't have any problem distinguishing.



I've asked for your verses supporting gentile tongues..... you've given not one but instead tried to make a Jewish book written to Jews by a Jew (1 Cor of course) out to be a gentile book written to a gentile church?

The early church was started by a [group of?] Jew; all the apostles were Jewish. The setting was. . . Jewish. You're asking for something impossible, and ridiculous. It's like saying the Bible never records womens peaking in tongues and concluding that women must not be able to speak in tongues--it's an argument from silence.

And I've done no such thing; Paul was a Jew writing the churches in Corinth and Galatia--both were filled with Jews and Gentiles who chose to follow Christ. PP already posted scripture to this extent.



You've claimed that my position that the letter was written to Jews is "ridiculous" (which I offer is a quite hilarious in light of the obvious fact that Paul is writing to Jews specifically, and gentiles only by default due their presence in the church)..... "our fathers" (certainly not gentile) being led out of Egypt.

I said nothing of the sort.



Lastly - I've given you sound doctrine proving irrefutably that NOT A SINGLE verse can be found to substantiate tongues outside the presence of Jews and NOT ONE case of a gentile using a sign gift any other time.

No you haven't, and it's a moot point you're trying to show anyway. I figured you'd pick up on the positions of Menzies and Roger Stronstad, but apparently not. . .



I continue to wait, as do some others here, for you to give us a single verse demonstrating ONE instance of a gentile speaking in tongues apart from the work of proving something to Jews. I wait for you give a verse demonstrating ONE single case where ANY sign gift was performed by ANY gentile outside the presence of Jews.

I think you're the only one waiting for tongues outside a Jewish setting. . . Most others are happy with just 'tongues' in any setting. You should know just as well as anyone that you can't argue against a negative.



You must admit, my Christian brother, that your doctrine could better be supported by quoting some Bible verses rather than insulting anyone who asks you to use the Bible.

Rather, the shoe is on the other foot. We're waiting for you to support your position with scripture. . . .
I have no problem 'providing scripture', but I'm not going to provide scripture to refute a belief you hold that you hold regardless of everything to the contrary.

Tabernacle
Mar 16th 2008, 11:06 PM
Well.... I never.... lol

We don't seem to be getting anywhere but in circles here.... I ask for an instance, ya'll argue it can't be given that way. I ask for scripture and ya'll quote a bunch of it - none of which shows a gentile speaking in tongues except as I pointed out - 2000 yrs ago and only to show a Jew something.

I said early on ALL scriptures pertaining to signs are exclusively Jewish and that Paul openly told us all why in 1 Cor 1:22 that the Jews (not the gentiles) require a sign. Ya'll say I dont give any scripture lol..... I gave you that ANY and ALL verses in the Bible even mentioning a sign or wonder or miracle ...... but, you say I dont have any proof? Uhh... every verse in the Bible containing reference to a sign or wonder ain't enough?

I wasn't suggesting Sir Project Peter or anyone else, that you don't study or arn't a devoted Christian - I am sure you are all Christians, some here (not all) are very immature of course, but Christians every one.

But in any event .....ya'll don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. Ya'll think I'm reading after some old quack commentary and I've been waiting for one of ya to realize there ain't a SHRED of Bible supporting that tongues are for today, or were ever for gentiles outside the presence of unbelieving Jews.

As for the women comment which ya'll seem so wigged out over, - First, I love them, married one, got one for a daughter. My point in saying that there ain't ONE SINGLE lady in the Bible speaking in tongues (or in the upper room) ever saying one syllable of an unknown tongue EVER. I point that out as curious considering that the ladies do lots of "sellinmuhhonda" in the charismatic churches contradictorily to Paul telling them to keep their mouth shut at church. Ironically in the same chapter as those women would run to in effort to say tongues is for everyone lol. :rofl:

Yes there are gentiles in Corinth....and yes, there are wonderful truths in 1 Cor that apply to everyone who is a believer in Christ. That however has nothing to do with the obvious fact that reading 1 & 11 Cor you see Paul constantly referring to "his brethren" (See Rom 9:3 for who he considers brethren in geneological context) and making mention of O.T. Jewish historical events with WE and OUR FATHERS.... That doesn't mean gentiles weren't present in that Jewish led Corinthian church and it isn't an effort to say 1 Cor doesn't contain guidance to everyone - for it sure does. Rather, I am efforting to get you see that the letter is written to the Jewish leadership of the church primarily, with intent that it be read in the church openly and in it are things for Jews and gentiles individually and collectively. However as well, there are things in it specifically for gentiles and specifically for Jews as well......and anyone trying to make the Jewish signs of 1 Cor applicable to a gentile audience is making a theological blunder on the signs......blowing that doctrinal distinction has led to the heretical charismatic movement of America thats since been spread over much of Christendom.

Anyway - you think I'm crazy and I think you're propping up a doctrinal Dagon that Christ will topple when He comes. In the mean time, the thread was open for anyone to voice a view....so there's mine. We don't agree amen? Hats off to you and may the Lord lead and guide you into all truth. Go witnessing for Jesus and lets try to get more lost souls into the Kingdom Amen!

Notice I didn't have to resort to calling you all liars to make my point?

Brother Mark
Mar 16th 2008, 11:08 PM
Let's stop with the false doctrine stuff. Discuss and enjoy the discussions. Leave the accusations out of the conversation.

danield
Mar 17th 2008, 01:22 AM
Tabernacle, I am not sure if I welcomed you to the board but it sure has been a pleasure chatting with you and I do hope we can become long friends because I can see clearly that you have a hunger for the word of God. In a selfish way, it is really interesting to see some different views from time to time because I am not a biblical scholar. And if I did come across a conversation where these issues came to life I will be well prepared to understand the topics at hand as opposed to being caught off guard. So this is a great exchange of ideas for sure!

I would also like to echo those comments to ProjectPeter and Xel’Naga. I do hope that you all know that I am stealing your wisdom from your years of research in this thread and many others! It is really a blessing to this board to have so many well versed contributors to the many subjects.

As far as some of your comments I guess it is best to start at the beginning



did you not notice that you render a view of inclusivity and opinion unsupported by scripture references?

Tabernacle, please excuse my ignorance! I tried hard to clearly put something together to support my views, but I am just not as proficient as I should be. However, I thought that I did deliver some compelling thoughts to show you that the limits of the Holy Spirit were not confined to Jewish heritage. This is the second thread where I have encountered someone who held the Jewish heritage well above the gentile people. Please understand that the reason I have chimed in both instances is because the basic foundation I have surrounding this relationship comes from the bible not from my own heart. I believe that what makes a person great in God’s eye is not because you are circumcised but because of your faith. This scripture below confirms this.



Romans 4:9-11
Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised!


This shows us it is not because you are a Jew that makes you great but your faith in God and his ways is what make you great. It clearly shows us here that the Father of all Jews was selected by God before he was circumcised (which means he was selected not because he was part of the Jewish community). Being Jewish is not what makes you great. Your faith in God does. We should agree on this basic premise. If you do rebuke it please do so in scripture that shows us clearly that being Jewish is necessary in order for the Holy Spirit to enter your heart.

We can expand this reasoning if needed, but I do feel that we both agree that what is great is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and not being Jewish or being gentile. Now if this is true than the power of the Holy Spirit is what is great not being Jewish or Gentile. We who are both Jewish and Gentile are indeed dogs not worthy of salvation, but the lord has offered us salvation if we put our faith in him. And if we have faith as large as a mustard seed we can move mountains! I know you have read this many times as a scholar, but do you believe this? I personally do!

Look at



Matthew 17:19-20
"Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, 'Why could we not cast it out?' He said to them, 'Because of your little faith. For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

And again at Luke 17:5-6
"The apostles said to the Lord, 'Increase our faith!' The Lord replied. 'If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.'"

When Jesus was teaching this he was not telling them that it was only Jewish faith that allows you to do these great things. It has nothing to do with who your forefathers were but the size of your faith in God! The same faith that Abraham had that started the wonderful kindling of love between God and the wonderful Jewish people.

Now, I have shown you in two posts where scripture clearly shows that it is not your heritage that allows you to receive great gifts from God, but it is your faith! Now, you are looking for specific scripture that says that a gentile has the right to speak in tongues unless accompanied by a Jew. It is not going to be in the bible because it does not need to be there in specific wording to understand that it is indeed very possible. And I have shown you several scriptures where gentiles were given gifts because of their faith. I have also shown you where Christ himself tells us that anything is possible if you have faith the size of a mustard seed. I can not understand how you can not correlate the meaning of these scripture when you have studied them for many years. I am not criticizing you at all so please do not take it that way. Perhaps if you prayed to the Lord and earnestly asked for the gift of tongues he will award you this gift in private. It may even strengthen your faith to the size of a mustard seed so that you can move mountains and win many for God’s kingdom!!

I guess what I am trying to communicate to you is that all gifts from God are all from the power of God, and they are limitless. The gifts are not franchised only though the Jewish people even though they originated from the Jewish community. It is much like saying that only salvation can only come from the Jewish community. And this is what upset Christ at the temple when he found vendors profiting from selling animals for sacrifice. The Jews were “cornering” the market for salvation. So are we going to only allow the Jews to distribute the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit while in their pressence? Or is it the Lord who decides when to give the gift of tongues!

I will close by saying that I fully agree that deceit has run ramped among those who pretend to have many of these gifts - tongues, healing, or prophesy. When deceit of the Holy Spirit occurred in days past this is what happened!



Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit and to secretly keep back from the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Remaining, did it not remain yours? And being sold, was it not in your authority? Why is it that this action was put into your heart? You did not lie to men, but to God!
Act 5:5 And hearing these words, Ananias fell down and expired. And great fear came on all those hearing these things.
Act 5:6 And rising up the younger ones wrapped him, and carrying out, they buried him.

I feel certain that this is what will happen when the two witnesses come on the scene in the world in the future. People have grown so accustom to not telling the truth that they take it for granted when going through their daily routines. And I bet that is one of the reasons why we do not see genuine tongues in many of the services today! I do hope I have contributed some worthy insight to the topic at hand. However, please remember that I am not a scholar, but a humble servant of the lord!
God Bless.

ravi4u2
Mar 17th 2008, 01:32 AM
My point in saying that there ain't ONE SINGLE lady in the Bible speaking in tongues (or in the upper room) ever saying one syllable of an unknown tongue EVER.So that we may keep to the topic:

Acts 1:13 - 14: "And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. "

Acts 2: 1 - 4: "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were ALL with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

redeemedbyhim
Mar 17th 2008, 02:18 AM
So that we may keep to the topic:

Acts 1:13 - 14: "And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. "

Acts 2: 1 - 4: "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were ALL with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Good point.
But, sorry, I all ready tried that one...it went no where! :giveup:

obeytheword
Mar 17th 2008, 03:08 PM
Well.... I never.... lol

We don't seem to be getting anywhere but in circles here.... I ask for an instance, ya'll argue it can't be given that way. I ask for scripture and ya'll quote a bunch of it - none of which shows a gentile speaking in tongues except as I pointed out - 2000 yrs ago and only to show a Jew something.

I said early on ALL scriptures pertaining to signs are exclusively Jewish and that Paul openly told us all why in 1 Cor 1:22 that the Jews (not the gentiles) require a sign. Ya'll say I dont give any scripture lol..... I gave you that ANY and ALL verses in the Bible even mentioning a sign or wonder or miracle ...... but, you say I dont have any proof? Uhh... every verse in the Bible containing reference to a sign or wonder ain't enough?

I wasn't suggesting Sir Project Peter or anyone else, that you don't study or arn't a devoted Christian - I am sure you are all Christians, some here (not all) are very immature of course, but Christians every one.

But in any event .....ya'll don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. Ya'll think I'm reading after some old quack commentary and I've been waiting for one of ya to realize there ain't a SHRED of Bible supporting that tongues are for today, or were ever for gentiles outside the presence of unbelieving Jews.

As for the women comment which ya'll seem so wigged out over, - First, I love them, married one, got one for a daughter. My point in saying that there ain't ONE SINGLE lady in the Bible speaking in tongues (or in the upper room) ever saying one syllable of an unknown tongue EVER. I point that out as curious considering that the ladies do lots of "sellinmuhhonda" in the charismatic churches contradictorily to Paul telling them to keep their mouth shut at church. Ironically in the same chapter as those women would run to in effort to say tongues is for everyone lol. :rofl:

Yes there are gentiles in Corinth....and yes, there are wonderful truths in 1 Cor that apply to everyone who is a believer in Christ. That however has nothing to do with the obvious fact that reading 1 & 11 Cor you see Paul constantly referring to "his brethren" (See Rom 9:3 for who he considers brethren in geneological context) and making mention of O.T. Jewish historical events with WE and OUR FATHERS.... That doesn't mean gentiles weren't present in that Jewish led Corinthian church and it isn't an effort to say 1 Cor doesn't contain guidance to everyone - for it sure does. Rather, I am efforting to get you see that the letter is written to the Jewish leadership of the church primarily, with intent that it be read in the church openly and in it are things for Jews and gentiles individually and collectively. However as well, there are things in it specifically for gentiles and specifically for Jews as well......and anyone trying to make the Jewish signs of 1 Cor applicable to a gentile audience is making a theological blunder on the signs......blowing that doctrinal distinction has led to the heretical charismatic movement of America thats since been spread over much of Christendom.

Anyway - you think I'm crazy and I think you're propping up a doctrinal Dagon that Christ will topple when He comes. In the mean time, the thread was open for anyone to voice a view....so there's mine. We don't agree amen? Hats off to you and may the Lord lead and guide you into all truth. Go witnessing for Jesus and lets try to get more lost souls into the Kingdom Amen!

Notice I didn't have to resort to calling you all liars to make my point?

Please forgive me for jumping in so late to the discussion, but i have had company over the weekend, and the discussion progressed quite a bit since I saw it last time.

I have in my years of being a Christian found many many examples of people creating a particular theology, wanting to believe something is true, then going to the word to "prove" their point.

Often they come up with arguments from silence. There are many arguments from silence that can be made - some may perhaps be a bit valid, most are not.

I do not see examples of Churches hiring a pastor and staff in scripture - does that mean we should never do that?

I do not see examples in scripture of someone recording a good sermon, and sending it out for others. (by this I mean even writing it down - not just making cds) Does this mean we should not to that?

In scripture churches were in homes - not in buildings that were bought with DEBT in most cases. By this, I can only assume that 95% of the churches in the states are unbiblical...

These are perhaps not even the best examples, just the ones that came to me off hand. You make a case from silence - having no scriptural support, and then tell us we must provide scripture that PROVES you are wrong.

You say that signs were ONLY for Jews - that Jews need signs, and Gentiles need wisdom... You are mis-quoting and pulling part of the context out of that. Please look at the whole context.

1 Cor 1
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

On the surface, if you ONLY look at verse 22 - then your point is valid - but verse 22 does not live in a vacuum. Paul is telling us that although Jews want signs, and GREEKS (not all gentiles) want wisdom - Paul will preach Christ - which is a stumbling block to Jews, and foolishness to Greeks.

If you take Verse 22 out of context and say it means ONLY that signs are ONLY for Jews you are doing a rather large dis-service to scripture. Scripture IS VERY clear that Tongues are a sign for unbelievers - NOT just for JEWISH unbelievers.

1 Cor 14
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&version=31#fen-NIV-28686g)] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&version=31#fen-NIV-28687h)]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

You FORCE the idea that Paul means tongues are a sign for JEWISH unbelievers, which is nowhere in the text. You are going to scripture in an attempt to "support" a position you WANT to be truth.

If I tell you that Americans are into gadgets, and Germans are not - what does that mean? Does it mean EVERY American loves gadgets, and EVERY German doesn't? No. It means that in general Americans love gadgets more than Germans do. (No clue if this is true about Americans/Germans, just using it for an example)
This is what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 1:22 - in general Christ is a stumbling block to Jews, because most Jews want to see a sign. Does this mean that every Jew who did not see a sign did not believe? Most Greeks are affected by mans Wisdom, and that is what is in their way to see the truth. Does this mean that NO Gentile will be won over by seeing a sign? No.

He is in no way making an edict that signs are ONLY for the Jews - but rather just saying that Jews tend to want signs, and Greeks tend to want to debate and use wisdom to understand.


Eph 3
6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In addition, we are ALL (Jews and Gentiles) sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

If we belong to Christ then we are Abrahams Seed and are heirs...

And to mention a point PP made earlier. From all appearances you have come into this thread not to discuss views, but rather to attack the positions of others with a rather large amount of sarcasm and elitism. Though there are many Christians who are probably not nearly educated enough about cultural issues that affect interpretation, and have a very "childlike" faith (not usually a bad thing by the way) - That in no way means that someone who has studied scripture for a long time is better equipped to understand the truth. Look at the pharisees - they should have gotten it huh?

Anyway - the point being that you are making a rather shaky argument that is based on many opinions that I personally believe are contradicted by a clear reading of scripture. It would be best for you to enter into the discussion with a bit more... Humility - After all it IS the meek who will inherit the Earth...

Be Blessed!

Tabernacle
Mar 17th 2008, 06:08 PM
:cool:

I have in my years of being a Christian found many many examples of people creating a particular theology, wanting to believe something is true, then going to the word to "prove" their point. Yes...me too, seeing a ton of it here lol


Often they come up with arguments from silence. There are many arguments from silence that can be made - some may perhaps be a bit valid, most are not. Arguments from silence? Perhaps in some instances valid - on the other, a great way to dismiss the fact that something ain;t in the Bible in order to maintain a doctrine unsupported by scripture.


I do not see examples of Churches hiring a pastor and staff in scripture - does that mean we should never do that? What do you suppose Paul meant when he said they who preach the gospel should live of the gospel? Staff.....uhh then whats a Deacon or elder worthy of double honor? Demonstrably - pastors and priest or elders were to be financially supported by the church.....I would say that if you obey the Bible you're paying a preacher.....the laborer is worth his hire....


I do not see examples in scripture of someone recording a good sermon, and sending it out for others. (by this I mean even writing it down - not just making cds) Does this mean we should not to that? Then we delete Stephen's sermon from Acts which was recorded and sent the world over in the scriptures God said for us to distribute? Sermon on the mount et al ?


In scripture churches were in homes - not in buildings that were bought with DEBT in most cases. By this, I can only assume that 95% of the churches in the states are unbiblical... I was daily with you in the temple..... the apostles continued daily from house to house and in the temple? The Pauline epistles were sent to whom? The Lord mentioned the seven whats? Dude....talk about taking something out of context....


These are perhaps not even the best examples, just the ones that came to me off hand. You make a case from silence - having no scriptural support, and then tell us we must provide scripture that PROVES you are wrong. Uh...yea?! Otherwise ya got churches practicing something as doctrinal as though God ordained it.....which NEVER is found in the Bible. A tradition of when we take the offering plates is a tradition....and open to us to go at as we please, but thats a far cry from a doctrinal / scriptural matter - if that ain't clear....I don't know what is?


You say that signs were ONLY for Jews - that Jews need signs, and Gentiles need wisdom... You are mis-quoting and pulling part of the context out of that. Please look at the whole context. Wrong, I didnt say Jews need signs, I said the Bible said they require signs.... you won't find a sign or wonder or miracle in a Bible that ain't specifically directly to them. Beginning with Moses (A Jew) and running throughout the remainder of the Bible..... thats a hard FACT to cast aside in my estimation.


On the surface, if you ONLY look at verse 22 - then your point is valid - but verse 22 does not live in a vacuum. Paul is telling us that although Jews want signs, and GREEKS (not all gentiles) want wisdom - Paul will preach Christ - which is a stumbling block to Jews, and foolishness to Greeks. Incorrect friend and fellow Christian, I look at EVERY reference in the Bible to signs....something most here don't seem to want to do.


If you take Verse 22 out of context and say it means ONLY that signs are ONLY for Jews you are doing a rather large dis-service to scripture. Scripture IS VERY clear that Tongues are a sign for unbelievers - NOT just for JEWISH unbelievers. Incorrect - 1 Cor 14:22 says tongues are for a sign....and 1 Cor 1:22 tells you who the signs are for and looking up ALL references to signs you find they're consistent with scripture, being in every case proof of something to Jews? Is that so hard?


You FORCE the idea that Paul means tongues are a sign for JEWISH unbelievers, which is nowhere in the text. You are going to scripture in an attempt to "support" a position you WANT to be truth. Force? Nowhere in the context? You're flip flopping back and forth between positive and negative - You say I am going to scripture to support something, and I say Charismatic doctrine is running everywhere but the Bible to support something it wants to be the truth.... Now who's using silence to build a doctrine?


He is in no way making an edict that signs are ONLY for the Jews - but rather just saying that Jews tend to want signs, and Greeks tend to want to debate and use wisdom to understand. And you got upset because I render an opinion? Uhh whats all this?


Eph 3
6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. A salvation scripture having nothing whatsoever to do with Jewish signs....but nice verse nontheless.


Gal 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Yes! Salvation is for everyone Amen!


In addition, we are ALL (Jews and Gentiles) sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Yep as it relates to salvation we sure are, but does this dismiss all the tons of scripture apertaining to the Jews? I say....no.


If we belong to Christ then we are Abrahams Seed and are heirs... Of salvation.....again, mixing apples and oranges in order to prove the existence of watermelons.


And to mention a point PP made earlier. From all appearances you have come into this thread not to discuss views, but rather to attack the positions of others with a rather large amount of sarcasm and elitism. Actually, I posted an opinion based on scripture on a thread, which promptly hacked a few folks off (Great peace have they which love thy law, and NOTHING SHALL OFFEND THEM) is that in the Bible or not? I was then called an idiot, ridiculous and a liar..... but, I can handle it. Sorry you think me sarcastic. I ask thy forgiveness - brother. Will thou turn and forgive? :kiss:


Anyway - the point being that you are making a rather shaky argument that is based on many opinions that I personally believe are contradicted by a clear reading of scripture. It would be best for you to enter into the discussion with a bit more... Humility - After all it IS the meek who will inherit the Earth... And you accused me of sarcasm? Bro Mark said something wise.....lets enjoy the discussion....without calling names right?

ProjectPeter
Mar 17th 2008, 06:15 PM
:cool:

Inserts in blue.....
If you put a quote in ([ ]) brackets at the beginning of a section that you want to reply to and an /quote in brackets at the end of it... that makes it easier to respond to a post and folks to respond back. I'll fix your post for you so you can see how that works.

danield
Mar 17th 2008, 09:19 PM
Tabernacle, you realize that when you limit the speaking of tongues by gentiles, you limit the authority of the Holy Spirit? When I read 1 Corinthians 12:4 – 11




There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit is the source of them all. 5 There are different kinds of service, but we serve the same Lord. 6 God works in different ways, but it is the same God who does the work in all of us. 7 --->A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other.<--- 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.9The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing. 10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=51#fen-NLT-28604d)] while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.

We see that the spiritual gifts are from the Holy Spirit and are given as it decides. Now let’s look if any restrictions are placed on the Holy Spirit as to who it can include in the body of Christ. Remember this passage follow the scripture from above! 1 Corinthians 12:12 -13




12 The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. 13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=51#fen-NLT-28607e)] some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.


This is not a special doctrine. This is in black and white so that anyone can see. Your doctrine is a very special one that you have to read between the lines in order to draw a conclusion to. When you define who Paul calls his brothers and sisters in Romans 9:3 does those statements limit the Holy Spirit’s gift only to his brothers the Jew? Lets look at who Christ’s brothers and sisters are Matthew 12:50



Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”

So if Christ is one with the Holy Spirit, and his brothers and sisters are those who abide in him, and all gifts from God come to us through the Holy Spirit, why are you trying to limit the Holy Spirit to accomplishing its goal only in the presence of a Jews? Your doctrine does not make sense at all. It is like saying that Christ could only do miracles in the presence of Jews because Christ was sent here to be the Messiah of the Jews when in actuality he came not only to save the Jews but to save the world! Just because he had 12 Jewish disciples that followed him does not mean that the Lords authority was limited to being done in their presence.

It is not prideful actions on behalf of being gentile that I am trying to discredit your doctrine, but having pride in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and its ability to transcend racial limitations. If I need to go to Jerusalem and submit myself under their authority to receive the Holy Spirit then, I would be all for it, but scripture clearly says this is not true. And it is just what you are preaching. Granted you feel that tongues are just a sign, but it is much more than that. It is a special gift that only comes from the presence of the Holy Spirit, not the presence of a Jew to convince them. Please understand too that I have not been awarded this gift! So It is not a special prideful American belief that I hold, but you are twisting scripture to limit the Holy Spirit, and when someone does try and limit the Lord, I do become very prideful! I am sorry but I do disagree with your interpretation of scripture on this matter. Perhaps if you take a fresh look at your understanding of the Holy Spirit, maybe you can see it in a different light.

God bless!

obeytheword
Mar 17th 2008, 10:25 PM
:cool: Yes...me too, seeing a ton of it here lol

Arguments from silence? Perhaps in some instances valid - on the other, a great way to dismiss the fact that something ain;t in the Bible in order to maintain a doctrine unsupported by scripture.

From looking at the evidence it appears to me you are indeed making an argument based on silence alone. Do you have a verse that says "No signs can be performed unless a Jew is present"? Do you have one that says "Signs and works of the Holy Spirit are ONLY for the Jews, not the Gentiles?

If you do not have something that addresses it directly, then I would maintain you are either cobbling together some ideas from scripture out of context, or you are making an argument of silence.




What do you suppose Paul meant when he said they who preach the gospel should live of the gospel? Staff.....uhh then whats a Deacon or elder worthy of double honor? Demonstrably - pastors and priest or elders were to be financially supported by the church.....I would say that if you obey the Bible you're paying a preacher.....the laborer is worth his hire....

Yes - you are correct - but we also have examples of Paul doing something else entirely. Regardless - by staff, I mean paying for a secretary, paying for someone to clean the church, paying for someone to lead this or that program. In scripture, I do not see examples of that actually happening to anywhere close to the extent that it happens today - other than perhaps the preacher.




Then we delete Stephen's sermon from Acts which was recorded and sent the world over in the scriptures God said for us to distribute? Sermon on the mount et al ?
As I said, not really the best examples - What I get for typing something up too fast :-) Bad example here.



I was daily with you in the temple..... the apostles continued daily from house to house and in the temple? The Pauline epistles were sent to whom? The Lord mentioned the seven whats? Dude....talk about taking something out of context....
You have missed the point of my post. The temples were not christian institutions. The Churches were in homes. You are not differentiating between the reality of what WE think of in many cases as a Church(building) and what THEY saw the church as (the people). Now we have Church (buildings) all over the place that are bought in most cases with debt. Not something that happened in scripture.




Uh...yea?! Otherwise ya got churches practicing something as doctrinal as though God ordained it.....which NEVER is found in the Bible. A tradition of when we take the offering plates is a tradition....and open to us to go at as we please, but thats a far cry from a doctrinal / scriptural matter - if that ain't clear....I don't know what is?
You ask us to PROVE from scripture exactly why you are wrong, which many have done. Even though you do not provide an argument other than one of silence.



Wrong, I didnt say Jews need signs, I said the Bible said they require signs.... you won't find a sign or wonder or miracle in a Bible that ain't specifically directly to them. Beginning with Moses (A Jew) and running throughout the remainder of the Bible..... thats a hard FACT to cast aside in my estimation.
The bible does not state that all Jews require signs, and no Gentiles do. This is what YOU are stating it says.

Even if I exclude the context, and ONLY look at the verse you want to, it does not state that.

22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom.

This in no way says that they require signs. It says they demand them. That may look close, but it is miles apart.

My children might demand to get a particular toy, or demand my attention. In neither case to they REQUIRE it. You are taking a statement that by context means "Jews ask for signs, and Greeks ask for wisdom" and making it an absolute requirement - then wrapping a theology around it.




Incorrect friend and fellow Christian, I look at EVERY reference in the Bible to signs....something most here don't seem to want to do.
I have as well, but I do not assume that every Church was a Jewish one as you do. I do not assume that Paul never writes to the Gentiles either, which you do. Without those two assumptions you have made your belief cannot stand. I do not find biblical backing for either of those assumptions you have made.




Incorrect - 1 Cor 14:22 says tongues are for a sign....and 1 Cor 1:22 tells you who the signs are for and looking up ALL references to signs you find they're consistent with scripture, being in every case proof of something to Jews? Is that so hard?
Again, you are making your argument one of silence. 1 cor 1:22 simply does not say what you believe it does as well.




Force? Nowhere in the context? You're flip flopping back and forth between positive and negative - You say I am going to scripture to support something, and I say Charismatic doctrine is running everywhere but the Bible to support something it wants to be the truth.... Now who's using silence to build a doctrine?
I apologize if you are offended - but an objective reading of scripture simply does not lead itself to your interpretation. You are reading into scripture things that simply are not there. I do not mean to offend by that statement, but I must speak what I see as truth.




And you got upset because I render an opinion? Uhh whats all this?
This is the result of an objective reading of scripture, with no attempt to try and prove one point or another. I can assure you I once did not believe in, nor did I trust or like the "gifts" of the spirit - did not believe tongues or prophesy was biblical. In my search for "proof" that they were false, I found out quite the opposite.




A salvation scripture having nothing whatsoever to do with Jewish signs....but nice verse nontheless.
I will have to respectively disagree. This is not JUST talking about salvation itself, but what position Gentiles hold in relation to Jews.

Eph 3
6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

There are special blessings reserved for Jewish believers, but the Spiritual gifts are not among them.




Yes! Salvation is for everyone Amen! Again - the application is in no way limited to salvation itself

Gal 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are not "sons of God as it pertains to salvation only". That is what you are reading into the scripture to come up with the idea you wish to believe.



Yep as it relates to salvation we sure are, but does this dismiss all the tons of scripture apertaining to the Jews? I say....no.

Of salvation.....again, mixing apples and oranges in order to prove the existence of watermelons.
An objective reading of scripture does not make those statements applicable ONLY to salvation itself.




Actually, I posted an opinion based on scripture on a thread, which promptly hacked a few folks off (Great peace have they which love thy law, and NOTHING SHALL OFFEND THEM) is that in the Bible or not? I was then called an idiot, ridiculous and a liar..... but, I can handle it. Sorry you think me sarcastic. I ask thy forgiveness - brother. Will thou turn and forgive? :kiss:
You very well may have attempted to do just that. However Sarcasm has reigned in most of your posts to one degree or another. I have at least attempted to be rather objective, even when responding to sarcasm - I would suggest you are capable of the same. I am not offended, I just wish my brothers and sisters who read this have access to what I feel is an objective interpretation of the word.

I did not call you an idiot, ridiculous, nor a liar - if you have been offended by the post of another, then feel free to point it out to them specifically.

I forgive your sarcasm - I am just hoping you can see by reading your past posts that your posts did come across that way, regardless of the intent.


And you accused me of sarcasm? Bro Mark said something wise.....lets enjoy the discussion....without calling names right?
Agreed

In regards to the meat of the issue here...

I believe you are honestly seeking the will of the father. I do not sense that you are TRYING to lead others astray - However intent is not always relevant. I believe in reviewing your assertions and interpretations of scripture you are taking a few verses out of context, and stretching the meaning beyond what is there - such as 1 cor 1:22.

Then you are making a few assumptions that I do not find biblical nor historical support for - such as Paul only writing epistles to Jews, and ALL churches (again, Churches = groups of believers, not buildings) were Jewish. I simply do not find biblical support for either of these ideas - quite the opposite.

Then you go on and make an argument of silence to cap it off.

I believe your intent is good - but I simply cannot agree with the conclusions you draw based on the problems I see above.

Be Blessed!

Tabernacle
Mar 18th 2008, 01:38 PM
Well said and plain to see you're sincere in your beliefs.