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VerticalReality
Mar 4th 2008, 02:35 PM
I posted this in another thread, but I felt it needed to be posted here as well. There is a mindset amongst many folks today that we just can't help but sin. I hope to show here that this just isn't biblical . . .

Being able to overcome sin is not a question of being able to keep the law. The fact that we are not under the law is the very reason why we can overcome sin. I will let Scripture speak for itself using the very chapter you are claiming states we can't help but sin . . .



Romans 7:15-25
For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Paul is making it clear that there are two different things that are contrary to one another. He has been born again as a believer in Christ, but his flesh is contrary to that which has been reborn. However, he goes on to say that there is deliverance from this struggle that is presented through the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, it can be helped and it is helped through the Lord . . .

Continue reading into chapter 8 . . .



Romans 8:1-11
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


So, this clearly says that if we walk by the Spirit we will not be condemned by the flesh. Why? Because we will not do what the flesh desires to do. Look at what Paul said about walking in the Spirit in Galatians 5 . . .



Galatians 5:16-26
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


This passage of Scripture clearly says that if you walk in the Spirit you will not do all those sinful and fleshly things. This is saying that we need to walk in the Spirit so that we do not do the works of the flesh. Therefore, it is very possible and very REQUIRED for us to put off the old self and put on the new man. We are no longer slaves of sin but slaves of God as Paul points out in Romans 6 . . .



Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?




Romans 6:5-7
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.




Romans 6:11-14
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.




Romans 6:16-23
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


So, how does one put off sin and walk in righteousness? How do we walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh?



Acts 10:43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”


Remission here in the Greek is aphesis and it means a release from bondage or imprisonment. So, anyone who believes in his/her heart that through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that we are free from the bondage of sin they can certainly walk free of it. Now, this is not saying that we will never ever for the rest of our lives sin. However, what it is saying is that when/if you do sin, it is not because you couldn't help it. It's because you were not obedient. It's as simple as that. If you are born again you should no longer be a slave of sin. He who has been born of God and abides in Him will not sin.



1 John 3:4-9
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


The "I can't help it" mentality just is not Scriptural. We can most definitely "help it" because the work of Jesus Christ has given that ability to us if we abide in Him through faith. Those who believe and walk by faith can overcome sin. If you don't believe you can overcome sin you certainly won't. Everything about being a Christian revolves around faith. If you don't believe how can you expect to receive? Nothing is impossible for him that believes . . . including being victorious over sin.

God bless!

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 5th 2008, 02:46 AM
Rock on!!!
Great post!!!

Ayala
Mar 5th 2008, 03:29 AM
Amen. Such a mindset is a slick slope down to destruction...One excuse for sin, leading to another. Without constant and firm resolve against sin and temptation, through Christ, our flesh will destroy us.

My heart's Desire
Mar 5th 2008, 06:58 AM
In this life we are going to sin no matter how much you overcome. There is no way anyone will become sinless on this earth so that means to me that we are going to sin. If one cannot prevent oneself from sinning entirely then that pretty much says to me that we can't help but sin.
Regardless, that part you give about overcoming is true to the extent that it should help us to sin less, but it will not make us sinless.

Brother Mark
Mar 5th 2008, 07:50 AM
In this life we are going to sin no matter how much you overcome. There is no way anyone will become sinless on this earth so that means to me that we are going to sin. If one cannot prevent oneself from sinning entirely then that pretty much says to me that we can't help but sin.
Regardless, that part you give about overcoming is true to the extent that it should help us to sin less, but it will not make us sinless.

We can overcome all the sin we are aware of in our life. Things we are deceived about and don't recognize as sin, we won't overcome for obvious reasons. But if you know something is a sin, you can keep from doing it.

VerticalReality
Mar 5th 2008, 02:32 PM
In this life we are going to sin no matter how much you overcome. There is no way anyone will become sinless on this earth so that means to me that we are going to sin. If one cannot prevent oneself from sinning entirely then that pretty much says to me that we can't help but sin.
Regardless, that part you give about overcoming is true to the extent that it should help us to sin less, but it will not make us sinless.

I really cannot understand why folks look at the very clear Scriptures given above and still argue what those Scriptures say.

All those VERY CLEAR Scriptures above say that a believer in Jesus Christ is absolutely 100% free from sin. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you truly believe, you are free from sin. If you do sin it is because you were flatout disobedient . . . not because you "couldn't help it" and you're still in bondage to sin.

militarywife
Mar 5th 2008, 02:41 PM
I really cannot understand why folks look at the very clear Scriptures given above and still argue what those Scriptures say.

All those VERY CLEAR Scriptures above say that a believer in Jesus Christ is absolutely 100% free from sin. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you truly believe, you are free from sin. If you do sin it is because you were flatout disobedient . . . not because you "couldn't help it" and you're still in bondage to sin.

The very concept of freedom finds its roots in the Bible in one of the most famous quotes of Jesus: "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). According to this scripture, we can only be free by knowing the truth. If we know the truth, which is Jesus Christ, we will be set free.
No bondage.

VerticalReality
Mar 5th 2008, 02:43 PM
The very concept of freedom finds its roots in the Bible in one of the most famous quotes of Jesus: "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). According to this scripture, we can only be free by knowing the truth. If we know the truth, which is Jesus Christ, we will be set free.
No bondage.


I agree . . . .

faithfulfriend
Mar 5th 2008, 03:00 PM
I agree . . . .

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

militarywife
Mar 5th 2008, 03:12 PM
Free indeed. AMEN.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

divaD
Mar 5th 2008, 03:59 PM
I really cannot understand why folks look at the very clear Scriptures given above and still argue what those Scriptures say.

All those VERY CLEAR Scriptures above say that a believer in Jesus Christ is absolutely 100% free from sin. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you truly believe, you are free from sin. If you do sin it is because you were flatout disobedient . . . not because you "couldn't help it" and you're still in bondage to sin.



What about you? Are you 100% free from sin? Do you live a 100% sinless life? Teaching God's Word is one thing, but living that teaching..that's entirely different. The point is, what you're teaching is truth, but can you live that teaching 100% without fail? That's why I apprecieted My heart's Desire post. Those thoughts were more realistic and honest, than someone thinking they can be 100% free from sin. Like My heart's Desire pointed out, that teaching should help someone to sin less, to even desire not to sin at all.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Since we are still flesh, verse 17 will always apply to us. So when we walk in the Spirit, we won't fullfill the lusts of the flesh. That's true enough. But can any of us walk in the Spirit 100% of the time all the time?

faithfulfriend
Mar 5th 2008, 04:08 PM
What about you? Are you 100% free from sin? Do you live a 100% sinless life? Teaching God's Word is one thing, but living that teaching..that's entirely different. The point is, what you're teaching is truth, but can you live that teaching 100% without fail? That's why I apprecieted My heart's Desire post. Those thoughts were more realistic and honest, than someone thinking they can be 100% free from sin. Like My heart's Desire pointed out, that teaching should help someone to sin less, to even desire not to sin at all.

By the grace of God I live sinless everyday. With his grace, strength, and help I can make it through every temptation.

The Bible tells us how we are to live:

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;



Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Exactly, they are contrary. You can't serve God and the Devil at the same time, either one or the other. Since the flesh and spirit are contrary to each other, one of them has to be put to death.



Since we are still flesh, verse 17 will always apply to us. So when we walk in the Spirit, we won't fullfill the lusts of the flesh. That's true enough. But can any of us walk in the Spirit 100% of the time all the time?

Bible says those in Christ have crucified (put to death) the flesh. If something is dead, it really isn't a problem anymore is it? If sin is dead, it's not alive and working in a persons life anymore.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

VerticalReality
Mar 5th 2008, 04:19 PM
What about you? Are you 100% free from sin?

Yes. I am absolutely without a shadow of doubt 100% free from sin.


Do you live a 100% sinless life?

Unfortunately, there has been times where I have been disobedient to my Lord. However, this is not because I'm not free from sin, but rather because I was disobedient. There is a big difference there that apparently some aren't catching.


Teaching God's Word is one thing, but living that teaching..that's entirely different. The point is, what you're teaching is truth, but can you live that teaching 100% without fail?

Does failing change the truth of the Scriptures above?


That's why I apprecieted My heart's Desire post. Those thoughts were more realistic and honest, than someone thinking they can be 100% free from sin.

You are absolutely incorrect that her response was "realistic". That response was exactly why so many folks struggle overcoming sin, and it was completely contrary to the REAL truth that is God's Word. God's Word is what is "realistic" and anything contrary to it is a lie. The world would have us believe that we can't live free from sin. That is a lie from the enemy to keep people living in sin. The truth of God's Word says that we are absolutely 100% free from sin. That's what I'm going to listen to, and those who walk by faith will do the same.


Since we are still flesh, verse 17 will always apply to us. So when we walk in the Spirit, we won't fullfill the lusts of the flesh. That's true enough. But can any of us walk in the Spirit 100% of the time all the time?

Yes, you can. Jesus Christ has given that ability to those who believe. It's when folks aren't believing that they sin. Oh, and that flesh you say you're in is supposed to be dead. Remember? It was crucified with Christ. That's truth. That's God's Word. Everything contrary to it is a lie. It is this lie that Jesus said would be broken by His truth. Those passages were quoted for you above . . .

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free . . . "

If it doesn't align with God's Word it is a lie. Simple as that.

Duane Morse
Mar 5th 2008, 05:14 PM
Yes. I am absolutely without a shadow of doubt 100% free from sin.



Unfortunately, there has been times where I have been disobedient to my Lord. However, this is not because I'm not free from sin, but rather because I was disobedient. There is a big difference there that apparently some aren't catching.


Please explain how being disobedient is different from sinning.

Because as far as I am concerned, you just contradicted yourself with those two statements.

VerticalReality
Mar 5th 2008, 06:04 PM
Please explain how being disobedient is different from sinning.

It's not different. What's different is choice compared to bondage.


Because as far as I am concerned, you just contradicted yourself with those two statements.

No contradiction. An unbeliever sins because they are in bondage to sin. They can't help but sin. It's just their way of life. A believer has had these chains of bondage broken, and when they sin they are simply doing so out of shear disobedience. It's not that they can't keep from sinning. It's that they are choosing to sin anyway. An unbeliever doesn't know the truth, and therefore they cannot walk free from the lie. However, believers do know the truth and if they choose to reject righteousness for sin it is because they are being disobedient. They cannot claim bondage to sin because they have been enlightened to the truth.

My heart's Desire
Mar 6th 2008, 12:37 AM
In God's eyes I am 100% free from Sin because He sees the sacrifice that bought me out of the house of Sin. In my walk, I am not 100% free. True, because Christ does live in me, my flesh is dead BECAUSE of sin, yet my spirit is alive.
I'm sorry but the argument you are making is that a Christian should always overcome and never sin because they can help themselves not sin.
1 John 1:7 says this:
but if we walk in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
This says to me that while we are walking in the Light, that we have fellowship with one another, and what? The blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES us from ALL sin. (Not that we won't sin while walking in the Light.)

verse 8:
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Seems we can't say that we have no sin for if we do then the truth in NOT in us.

verse 10 says that If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Now, I certainly don't advocate people sinning effortless all the time and using "I can't help it" as a reason to continue doing so. But if we could help ourselves to NOT sin, then where would our need for a Saviour have been?

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 03:50 AM
In God's eyes I am 100% free from Sin because He sees the sacrifice that bought me out of the house of Sin. In my walk, I am not 100% free.

Again, you contradict clear Scripture.

Romans 6:5-7
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Romans 6:16-23
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now, is God's Word true or not? You continuously argue clear Scripture as if it were just my opinion here in this thread. This is not just my opinion. This is VERY clear and plain Scripture that states you are wrong. So, either the Word is true or it's not. There is no in between.


True, because Christ does live in me, my flesh is dead BECAUSE of sin, yet my spirit is alive.

So, since your flesh is dead why do you still serve sin?


I'm sorry but the argument you are making is that a Christian should always overcome and never sin because they can help themselves not sin.

Actually no, I'm not saying that a person "helps themselves" not sin. I'm saying that the Spirit of God helps us not sin. If you walk in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That's plain Scripture, and it is God's truth. The question is why you are not experiencing this in your walk.



1 John 1:7 says this:
but if we walk in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
This says to me that while we are walking in the Light, that we have fellowship with one another, and what? The blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES us from ALL sin. (Not that we won't sin while walking in the Light.)


Nobody has said you won't ever sin. Again, you do not understand what is being said here. What is being said here is that you are not in bondage to sin. You are not a slave to sin any longer if the Lord Jesus Christ is your confessed Savior. In addition, if you walk by faith you won't sin. If you do sin it is because you aren't walking by faith. If you were walking by faith then you would be filled with God's Spirit and in this there is no sin. Sin is not possible when you are walking in the Spirit. Therefore, if you do sin it is because you are walking in the flesh and not by faith.



verse 8:
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Seems we can't say that we have no sin for if we do then the truth in NOT in us.


And again, you lack understanding here. Nobody is saying we have no sin. It is being said that we are not in bondage to sin. What does John go on to say?

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

John then goes on to give us some very blunt and straightforward information . . .

1 John 3:4-9
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


Now, I certainly don't advocate people sinning effortless all the time and using "I can't help it" as a reason to continue doing so. But if we could help ourselves to NOT sin, then where would our need for a Saviour have been?

And again, you are not understanding. I am saying the exact opposite to what you think here. I am saying that it is the Spirit of God, not man, that is the reason why we won't sin. It's as clear and black and white as Paul said in Galatians 5 . . .

"Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."

My heart's Desire
Mar 6th 2008, 04:35 AM
Ok, so in this part of that verse:

Whoever has been born of God does not sin,

Do you take that to mean that one born of God NEVER sins? How would you interprete that?

My heart's Desire
Mar 6th 2008, 05:59 AM
Let me stop a minute as perhaps I'm getting ahead of you somewhere. Let me see if I understand what you are trying to say.
Are you trying to say that when one is unsaved, that person sins because he is a sinner and can't help themselves because it is their nature to sin?
And are you trying to say that once a sinner is redeemed by Jesus and His Spirit is within that person that they are no longer helpless people and therefore they do not have to sin?
If that is what you are saying I will agree, BUT I believe that they do still sin and sometimes quite easily, but the punishment and overall guilt is taken away by the death, burial and resurrection of the Risen Lord and their faith in Him.
If the possibility that they will sin did not exist then confession of sin to cleanse them would not be neccessary, but the Word is clear that we are to confess our sin. We agree with God about it. It is clear that a Christian can and will sin.
Because of this, the passages you quote will help one to overcome sin but it doesn't mean he will not sin.
From what I understand sin is not only going out to murder, lie, steal etc, it could also mean not doing things one ought to. It is not only things you do, but things you don't do that you should do.

My heart's Desire
Mar 6th 2008, 06:14 AM
Yes. I am absolutely without a shadow of doubt 100% free from sin.



Unfortunately, there has been times where I have been disobedient to my Lord. However, this is not because I'm not free from sin, but rather because I was disobedient. There is a big difference there that apparently some aren't catch
To me here, you are still trying to say that you are 100% free from sin and yet you are not because in disobedience you still sin. Either one is completely free and one doesn't commit sin or one is not free. The only way I know that one can be both is that in the eyes of the Lord He no longer sees us but He sees the sinless Christ who lives in us, although we in the flesh still sin.
I believe it is speaking of the difference of the position we have in Christ as opposed to our daily walk with Christ. I do believe that if one in faith walks as if he indeed is free from sin he/she will sin less.

Duane Morse
Mar 6th 2008, 08:10 AM
Ok, so in this part of that verse:

Whoever has been born of God does not sin,

Do you take that to mean that one born of God NEVER sins? How would you interprete that?
There has only been one born of God.

The only begotten Son, Jesus.

Duane Morse
Mar 6th 2008, 08:12 AM
And to date, He is the only sinless man.

Naphal
Mar 6th 2008, 10:01 AM
I agree with those that are honest about their sins and that they cannot be completely sinless while living in this sinful world and body. Anyone who claims to not sin is not speaking the truth.

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 01:58 PM
Ok, so in this part of that verse:

Whoever has been born of God does not sin,

Do you take that to mean that one born of God NEVER sins? How would you interprete that?

Why ask me? What does it say to you? I've posted clear Scripture that says we are free from sin, yet some still argue those Scriptures and say they don't mean what they say. So, what good is it for me to tell you what those Scriptures say when you don't seem to want to accept it?

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 02:13 PM
Let me stop a minute as perhaps I'm getting ahead of you somewhere. Let me see if I understand what you are trying to say.
Are you trying to say that when one is unsaved, that person sins because he is a sinner and can't help themselves because it is their nature to sin?

An unsaved person is controlled by the spirit of this world. Therefore, they are controlled by their flesh and know nothing else.


And are you trying to say that once a sinner is redeemed by Jesus and His Spirit is within that person that they are no longer helpless people and therefore they do not have to sin?

Correct.


If that is what you are saying I will agree, BUT I believe that they do still sin and sometimes quite easily

And the reason they sin is because they are not walking by faith . . . not because they couldn't help it.


If the possibility that they will sin did not exist then confession of sin to cleanse them would not be neccessary, but the Word is clear that we are to confess our sin. We agree with God about it. It is clear that a Christian can and will sin.

You don't confess the "possibility" to sin. You confess when you sin. If you don't sin there should be nothing to confess. As John said, he wrote 1 John so that we "may not sin". If "not sinning" weren't possible, there would be no need for him to write the letter.


Because of this, the passages you quote will help one to overcome sin but it doesn't mean he will not sin.

Sin has already been defeated for those who believe. Why do you claim it doesn't mean they will not sin? Again, what you believe is what will determine whether or not you sin. Both John and Paul clearly say that those who walk by faith and believe will not sin. Therefore, if you do sin it is not because you weren't freed from sin but rather because you are not walking by faith. John made it clear that this is what is to be expected. It is expected of us not to sin. It is conceded that folks will occasionally fall off track and sin, but it is expected of us not to allow this to happen. This is why John says that he wrote his letter so that "we may not sin, but if you do sin . . . ". He's saying there that you are expected to walk in victory over sin by faith, but if you don't walk by faith and believe Jesus for what He's done for you, you can be assured that Jesus is faithful and just to forgive you.


From what I understand sin is not only going out to murder, lie, steal etc, it could also mean not doing things one ought to. It is not only things you do, but things you don't do that you should do.

Sin is a transgression of the law. This is its biblical definition.

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 02:20 PM
To me here, you are still trying to say that you are 100% free from sin and yet you are not because in disobedience you still sin.

It's not just me who's saying it. I gave you clear Scripture that says it. Does the Scripture I gave you not say that we are free from sin? Does Scripture not also say that we are still capable of walking in the flesh and sinning even though we are indeed free from sin? Does Scripture not say that if you walk in the Spirit you will not fulfill what the flesh would desire to do? How do you reconcile the fact that you are both free from sin but yet you still sin? It can't be because you are still in bondage to sin because that goes against the Word of God if you are a true believer. It can't be because you "can't help it" because the Word of God says you can. It has to be because you are not walking out what the Word of God says. Likewise, if you are not walking out what the Word of God says, the reason for this has to be faith. We can see why this is true just by reading your comments. You show your lack of faith in how you respond to the truth of the Scriptures presented.


Either one is completely free and one doesn't commit sin or one is not free.

So, what does the Word say and how does what you believe align with it? If what you believe does not align with the Word, which one is truth and which one is a lie?


I believe it is speaking of the difference of the position we have in Christ as opposed to our daily walk with Christ. I do believe that if one in faith walks as if he indeed is free from sin he/she will sin less.

The Word does not say that. The Word says that if you walk by faith you will not sin at all. Therefore, if you do sin what does that say?

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 02:22 PM
And to date, He is the only sinless man.

And if your flesh is dead and His Spirit is reigning in you, what does that mean for you? If His righteousness is what is controlling you and not your flesh, shouldn't you also be walking in His righteousness and be empowered to be holy as He is holy?

Let's not use the flesh as an excuse for sin. It's no excuse and won't hold up when standing before our Lord. He has given us through faith the ability to overcome the flesh.

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 02:23 PM
I agree with those that are honest about their sins and that they cannot be completely sinless while living in this sinful world and body. Anyone who claims to not sin is not speaking the truth.

And if you've actually read this topic you have seen that nobody here is claiming to have never sinned, so your response isn't really relevant to the topic at hand.

RogerW
Mar 6th 2008, 03:40 PM
If sinless perfection can be attained by any man, certainly we should see Paul, by example, showing himself to have attained unto perfection. But what we see instead is Paul admitting that even he has not attained the perfection he longs for. Paul continues to press toward that goal of perfection he longs to attain, but admits even he has not achieved it.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Not only does Paul acknowledge that he has not attained unto the perfection he strives after, he admonishes those who say they have attained perfection. This could also be speaking of those who are viewed as mature. He tells them to be thus minded as he. That is to humbly acknowledge as does he that perfection is what we seek after, and saying we are perfect makes us otherwise minded, and contrary to the teachings of Paul. Paul further hopes that God will reveal this attitude; thinking themselves to have achieved perfection while wearing bodies of death, for this is a sinful attitude.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

We should hold on to what we have already attained in our striving for perfection, but remember that we should also walk by the same rule (standard, example) Paul has set for us. And that we should be like minded followers in seeking to attain perfection, but acknowledging that we have yet to attain unto that we seek, and will not attain perfection in this life.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Finally, Paul seems to be linking those who think they have attained perfection while in these bodies of death to the enemies of the cross of Christ. And concludes by telling us that at His coming Christ will change our vile bodies, and fashion them into glorious bodies, without sin.

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The way the word "perfect" has been defined in vs 12 is to literally accomplish, consecrate, finish, fulfill, make perfect. But the word "perfect" in vs 15 is defined with a slight difference and speaks of being complete in various applications of labor, growth, mental, or moral character. In other words it seems to imply spiritual maturity. So it would seem that Paul is acknowledgeing that he has not yet been made perfect, and understands that as long as he wears the physical body of death he will not be. So, he speaks to those who show a mature faith, and tells them they should be thus minded. In other words they should have the same mind as Paul regarding perfection, realizing that to be otherwise minded would not be following his example. And in following his example, they too ought to seek to attain perfection, knowing that they will not be made perfect/complete until they are changed from their vile bodies of death.

Many Blessings,
RW

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 03:42 PM
I'll use a stronghold as an example here. What is a stronghold? A stronghold is a lie that the enemy builds in someone's mind that convinces them that they can't live or do without a particular thing.

We'll use sexual sin as an example. A person can be in bondage to sexual sin as an unbeliever. They will commit sexual immorality and not think twice about it. They won't see a problem with it at all. However, once the Lord gets a hold of this person and they are enlightened to the truth by God's Spirit, they will all of a sudden see wrong in their actions. They will see that what they are doing is wrong and it shouldn't be done. They will repent of this action, and they will be set free from this sin. The chains of bondage that were wrapped around this person are broken in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. They are completely free, and God's Word declares this so.

However, what happens at this point is that the enemy will enter into this individual's thoughts and that dirty rotten liar will convince this person that they cannot live without this sexual action. He will convince them that they are just an ol' pitiful sinner who can't help but live in sin, and there's nothing they will ever do to change that. He will in some cases even try to convince a person through a, "Did God really say that . . . " sort of thought that there's really nothing wrong with what they're doing even though they feel convicted about it. Only through knowing God's Word and believing its truth will this person be able to cast down this stronghold. Only through believing God's truth will this person be able to live in victory over the lie of the enemy.

It wasn't that this person wasn't free from this sin. It was that this person didn't walk by faith in what God's truth says. This person has been duped into believing a lie of the devil that says he can't beat that sin when in reality that sin has already been beaten. It's when the believer receives revelation of this truth that they are able to walk in victory over this sin.

That's the Word, and that is the victory a believer has in Christ Jesus. Unfortunately, we have many more churches and more Christians today teaching the lie of the enemy that prevents a person from walking in victory than we have churches and Christians that are teaching God's truth that we are set free from sin. Until a person believes they are set free from sin, they will not walk in victory over it. Maybe this is why the church today is so riddled with sin.

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 03:47 PM
If sinless perfection can be attained by any man, certainly we should see Paul, by example, showing himself to have attained unto perfection. But what we see instead is Paul admitting that even he has not attained the perfection he longs for. Paul continues to press toward that goal of perfection he longs to attain, but admits even he has not achieved it.

Oh my goodness . . .

Is nobody really reading anything being said here? How many times am I going to have to say that this is not about "attaining perfection" or being "without sin".

How many times is it really going take? Can I get a number because I would prefer to just go ahead and get it out of the way so we won't have these sort of responses repeatedly.

Again, this topic is not about "attaining perfection" or "being without sin".

This topic is about being FREE from sin, which Scripture says is absolute, 100% truth.

RogerW
Mar 6th 2008, 03:55 PM
I recently read a very good short article by Pastor Tom Ascol regarding this subject. Dr Ascol begins with the words of Christ telling us "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell" (Mt. 5:29,30).

Dr Ascol tells us these words are intended to shock us into recognition of the seriousness with which we must deal with the sin that remains in our lives as believers. We must treat it ruthlessly. We must be willing to give up even good things (analogous to eyes and arms) in our effort to put sin to death.

Because Jesus died for every one of our sins we can be sure that God will forgive us all our sins. We can also be confident that He will one day finally deliver us from the last vestige of sin. Every Christian will one day be completely and eternally free from sin.

It is that hope, grounded in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, that keeps believers in the fight against sin that remains in their lives.

The Gospel sets us free to deal ruthlessly with remaining sin. Because of all that Jesus has accomplished for us, we who trust Him are free to face our sin honestly and fight against it tenaciously. We can live this way knowing that His grace empowers us to take even extreme measures to pursue the holiness that He requires of us.

No one in heaven will regret fighting ruthlessly against sin while on earth. Rather, we will all praise God for His grace that enabled us to persevere in this fight to the end.

Dr. Tom Ascol is pastor of Grace Baptist Church

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 04:07 PM
Every Christian will one day be completely and eternally free from sin.



The Word says that every believer is already free from sin . . .

Read those passages of Scripture from Romans 6 that I have posted here a couple of times already.

grptinHisHand
Mar 6th 2008, 04:12 PM
Vertical reality, I think you said it best in a post on the first page:
I quote you:
"No contradiction. An unbeliever sins because they are in bondage to sin. They can't help but sin. It's just their way of life. A believer has had these chains of bondage broken, and when they sin they are simply doing so out of shear disobedience. It's not that they can't keep from sinning. It's that they are choosing to sin anyway. An unbeliever doesn't know the truth, and therefore they cannot walk free from the lie. However, believers do know the truth and if they choose to reject righteousness for sin it is because they are being disobedient. They cannot claim bondage to sin because they have been enlightened to the truth."
We need to remember that in 1 John 1:5-10 we are told that:
Well, here is the quote New International version:
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

RogerW
Mar 6th 2008, 04:15 PM
Oh my goodness . . .

Is nobody really reading anything being said here? How many times am I going to have to say that this is not about "attaining perfection" or being "without sin".

How many times is it really going take? Can I get a number because I would prefer to just go ahead and get it out of the way so we won't have these sort of responses repeatedly.

Again, this topic is not about "attaining perfection" or "being without sin".

This topic is about being FREE from sin, which Scripture says is absolute, 100% truth.

But what you have done VR is link inability to sin not with faith. You have stated that when we sin it is because we lack faith...this is not true. Paul did not live a perfect sinless life, and it is was not because he lacked faith.

You said, "Likewise, if you are not walking out what the Word of God says, the reason for this has to be faith. We can see why this is true just by reading your comments. You show your lack of faith in how you respond to the truth of the Scriptures presented."

We do not sin because we lack faith, but because we are still wearing our sinful flesh that struggles against the spirit within. Like Paul as long as we live in this life we will continue to struggle against remaining sin, and we will never be completely free from this struggle until we recieve our glorified bodies.

Many Blessings,
RW

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 04:20 PM
We do not sin because we lack faith, but because we are still wearing our sinful flesh that struggles against the spirit within. Like Paul as long as we live in this life we will continue to struggle against remaining sin, and we will never be completely free from this struggle until we recieve our glorified bodies.

Many Blessings,
RW

Actually this is completely incorrect. Paul makes it clear that if you walk in the Spirit you WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. You walk in the Spirit by faith. Therefore, if you do fulfill the lusts of the flesh it is because you were not walking in the Spirit. Therefore, in turn, you are sinning because you are not walking by faith. Scripture clearly says this. Why do you argue the Word? Does Paul not say that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh? Does Romans 6 not say that we have been set free from sin? Is this not very clear Scripture? Why do you continue to argue these truths?

grptinHisHand
Mar 6th 2008, 04:22 PM
RogerW, you are right. It is the fact that we are 'still wearing our sinful flesh'. In salvation, we are saved from the penalty of sin. In our walk, we are saved from the power of sin, and at the end of life we will be saved from the presence of sin.

Being saved from the power of sin doesn't mean we won't sin, but that it doesn't still have the power over us to separate us from God. I still say we need to keep in mind the verses from 1 John and realize that we need to confess sin when we realize it. "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." v 9 KJV
g



We do not sin because we lack faith, but because we are still wearing our sinful flesh that struggles against the spirit within. Like Paul as long as we live in this life we will continue to struggle against remaining sin, and we will never be completely free from this struggle until we recieve our glorified bodies.

Many Blessings,
RW

IWalkWithHim
Mar 6th 2008, 04:50 PM
Before I jump in and offer my thoughts, I want to be clear about something as well (I did read the entire thread first).

Are we saying then that although through Christ's death, being a slave to sin has been demolished, that from the moment that we accept Him as our Lord and Savior that at that moment we have the physical ability to stop sinnig a do it no longer........EVER??

See, the only issue I have with this is if this were completely possible, then what is Grace for? Why would we need Grace if we never sinned? What is the point of asking for forgiveness of sins if we never commit any? Is it possible to live life without ever having one contradictory thought? Especially when you have a supervisor that is an utter jerk toward you all the time.....
:confused

Brother Mark
Mar 6th 2008, 04:55 PM
Before I jump in and offer my thoughts, I want to be clear about something as well (I did read the entire thread first).

Are we saying then that although through Christ's death, being a slave to sin has been demolished, that from the moment that we accept Him as our Lord and Savior that at that moment we have the physical ability to stop sinnig a do it no longer........EVER??

See, the only issue I have with this is if this were completely possible, then what is Grace for? Why would we need Grace if we never sinned? What is the point of asking for forgiveness of sins if we never commit any? Is it possible to live life without ever having one contradictory thought? Especially when you have a supervisor that is an utter jerk toward you all the time.....
:confused

Mercy and grace are two different things. Grace is power to overcome our circumstances, sin, and other things as well. In other words, grace is power in one's life.

Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds because it is more powerful than sin. When grace abounds much, sin will disappear as we overcome it.

grptinHisHand
Mar 6th 2008, 04:58 PM
Grace is Getting what we don't deserve - eternal life
Mercy is Not getting what we deserve - eternal punishment
g

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 05:03 PM
Are we saying then that although through Christ's death, being a slave to sin has been demolished, that from the moment that we accept Him as our Lord and Savior that at that moment we have the physical ability to stop sinnig a do it no longer........EVER??

You don't have a physical ability. Through faith we have the ability to be filled with God's Spirit, and in this filling we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is why Paul says in Ephesians 5 that we are to be filled with the Spirit continuously. It's through walking in God's power are you able to put off sin. To walk in this power and to walk in the Spirit you must do so by faith. This is why without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Duane Morse
Mar 6th 2008, 05:20 PM
And if your flesh is dead and His Spirit is reigning in you, what does that mean for you? If His righteousness is what is controlling you and not your flesh, shouldn't you also be walking in His righteousness and be empowered to be holy as He is holy?

Let's not use the flesh as an excuse for sin. It's no excuse and won't hold up when standing before our Lord. He has given us through faith the ability to overcome the flesh.
The phrase 'the flesh is dead' is a metaphor. Obviously, our flesh is still alive.

VR, can you honestly say that you will never sin again?
If so, I don't think the Truth is in you.
If not, then what will be your excuse or reason?

IWalkWithHim
Mar 6th 2008, 05:47 PM
Then with the statements listed above (and all others) are we left to conclude that VR is right and that it just takes many of us a lifetime to master the ability to resist the temptation of sin in all of it's forms?

I ask that question because obviously, no one is living a sin free life. Although our sin debt is paid in full (daily) we commit sins daily. If we can be honest for a moment, one's ability to overcome a specific sin may be greater than his neighbors and vise-versa. The Word of God says in James 4:17 that "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Do you have any idea just how much stuff this includes?? Taking in the homeless, taking out the trash, tying you brothers shoe, picking up others trash and throwing it away EVERYTIME you see it. To you or me, each of these acts are good but if we choose not to do it, it is a sin to us. Walking by people in need and we are in a position to help them and don't, that is a sin. Being late for appointments, sin. Not taking care of our bodies, sin. Watching inapproprite movies, sin. Typing on this message board when you should be working, sin. I could go on and on. For one to say that they live a COMPLETELY sin free life, in my opinion, is false doctrine.

Now go ahead and throw stones.

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2008, 05:57 PM
The phrase 'the flesh is dead' is a metaphor. Obviously, our flesh is still alive.

When Scripture says our flesh is dead it's talking about the flesh being dead to sin . . . not dead as in the grave dead. So, this is not really a metaphor. Our flesh should indeed be dead to sin.


VR, can you honestly say that you will never sin again?

I think I've already made it sufficiently clear in this thread that it isn't about being "without sin" but rather "free from sin". If you don't see the difference by now then perhaps you should pray about it. The Lord said if any of us lacks wisdom He will give liberally without reproach if done so in faith.


If so, I don't think the Truth is in you.

I've presented plenty of truth from God's own Word here, so truth is certainly not the problem. Perhaps it is your own understanding that is the issue.

ABLATT
Mar 6th 2008, 07:33 PM
By the grace of God I live sinless everyday. With his grace, strength, and help I can make it through every temptation.

The Bible tells us how we are to live:

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;



Exactly, they are contrary. You can't serve God and the Devil at the same time, either one or the other. Since the flesh and spirit are contrary to each other, one of them has to be put to death.



Bible says those in Christ have crucified (put to death) the flesh. If something is dead, it really isn't a problem anymore is it? If sin is dead, it's not alive and working in a persons life anymore.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Excellent Post.

I have never really understood.. how some can believe after we get saved, we just go on sinning, committing sin, being disobedient.. whatever you want to name it.
Jesus clearly told the woman accused of adultery..
John 8: 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


Jesus would never tell someone to do something if it was impossible to do.

Naphal
Mar 6th 2008, 09:07 PM
And if you've actually read this topic you have seen that nobody here is claiming to have never sinned, so your response isn't really relevant to the topic at hand.

Everyone admits to having sinned in the past but some say they are living their lives without sinning again and that is not something anyone can do in the flesh.

Naphal
Mar 6th 2008, 09:11 PM
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

The KJV language is a bit confusing at times but what Paul says is, "I don't do what I know is right. I do the things I hate."

Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

"I am not the one doing these evil things. The sin that lives in me is what does them."

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

"I have the will to do good but I can't seem to figure out how to do it"

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

"Instead of doing what I know is right, I do wrong."

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

"If I do what I don't want to do, this means that I am no longer the one who does it; instead, it is the sin that lives in me."

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

"The Law has shown me that, though I have a mind to do good, evil is present in me."

It's a bit disconcerting to me that many who talk about themselves and sin seem to be far above what Paul himself dealt with in his life. Either Paul was a terrible Christian or Paul is a realistic Christian speaking about his sins and struggles.




If sinless perfection can be attained by any man, certainly we should see Paul, by example, showing himself to have attained unto perfection. But what we see instead is Paul admitting that even he has not attained the perfection he longs for. Paul continues to press toward that goal of perfection he longs to attain, but admits even he has not achieved it.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Not only does Paul acknowledge that he has not attained unto the perfection he strives after, he admonishes those who say they have attained perfection. This could also be speaking of those who are viewed as mature. He tells them to be thus minded as he. That is to humbly acknowledge as does he that perfection is what we seek after, and saying we are perfect makes us otherwise minded, and contrary to the teachings of Paul. Paul further hopes that God will reveal this attitude; thinking themselves to have achieved perfection while wearing bodies of death, for this is a sinful attitude.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

We should hold on to what we have already attained in our striving for perfection, but remember that we should also walk by the same rule (standard, example) Paul has set for us. And that we should be like minded followers in seeking to attain perfection, but acknowledging that we have yet to attain unto that we seek, and will not attain perfection in this life.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Finally, Paul seems to be linking those who think they have attained perfection while in these bodies of death to the enemies of the cross of Christ. And concludes by telling us that at His coming Christ will change our vile bodies, and fashion them into glorious bodies, without sin.

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The way the word "perfect" has been defined in vs 12 is to literally accomplish, consecrate, finish, fulfill, make perfect. But the word "perfect" in vs 15 is defined with a slight difference and speaks of being complete in various applications of labor, growth, mental, or moral character. In other words it seems to imply spiritual maturity. So it would seem that Paul is acknowledgeing that he has not yet been made perfect, and understands that as long as he wears the physical body of death he will not be. So, he speaks to those who show a mature faith, and tells them they should be thus minded. In other words they should have the same mind as Paul regarding perfection, realizing that to be otherwise minded would not be following his example. And in following his example, they too ought to seek to attain perfection, knowing that they will not be made perfect/complete until they are changed from their vile bodies of death.

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 12:41 AM
Everyone admits to having sinned in the past but some say they are living their lives without sinning again and that is not something anyone can do in the flesh.

But when we walk in the Spirit, we do not do the sins of the flesh. In other words, when we are walking in the Spirit, we don't have to sin.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 12:54 AM
Again, this topic is not about "attaining perfection" or "being without sin".

This topic is about being FREE from sin, which Scripture says is absolute, 100% truth.

All those things mean the same thing so it is about those things.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 01:00 AM
But when we walk in the Spirit, we do not do the sins of the flesh. In other words, when we are walking in the Spirit, we don't have to sin.


This is akin to saying we aren't sinning when we aren't committing sins. It's a given, but no one can "walk in the Spirit" for all their life and never sin again. We will all to varying degrees walk in the flesh and sin.

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 01:02 AM
This is akin to saying we aren't sinning when we aren't committing sins. It's a given, but no one can "walk in the Spirit" for all their life and never sin again. We will all to varying degrees walk in the flesh and sin.

We know from scripture that God always provides a way of escape. So we know it is possible to always take that way of escape.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 01:08 AM
We know from scripture that God always provides a way of escape. So we know it is possible to always take that way of escape.

The escape is when sin is destroyed. Until then, sin exists and we all will sin. I like another poster here do not believe when someone says they are without sin.

faithfulfriend
Mar 7th 2008, 01:28 AM
The escape is when sin is destroyed. Until then, sin exists and we all will sin. I like another poster here do not believe when someone says they are without sin.

Questions.

Christ was tempted correct? Was he a sinner because he was tempted?

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Bible says Christ was tempted as we are, but was without sin. Why was he without sin? Because he RESISTED temptation! God's word says I can resist every temptation. So if an individual resists every temptation....wouldn't that make one sinless?

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 01:34 AM
Questions.

Christ was tempted correct? Was he a sinner because he was tempted?

No. A temptation isn't committing a sin. Besides it doesn't mean he felt tempted to sin but was tempted as in it was offered to him.



Bible says Christ was tempted as we are, but was without sin. Why was he without sin? Because he RESISTED temptation! God's word says I can resist every temptation. So if an individual resists every temptation....wouldn't that make one sinless?

We cannot resist temptation 100 percent. We will always at some point fail and give in.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

The subject is about committing idolatry.

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 01:36 AM
We cannot resist temptation 100 percent. We will always at some point fail and give in.

Sure we can.


1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

The subject is about committing idolatry.

It's also about any other temptation you want to throw in there. All sin is idolatry if you get right down to it. Who's calling the shots, us or God?

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 01:38 AM
The escape is when sin is destroyed. Until then, sin exists and we all will sin. I like another poster here do not believe when someone says they are without sin.

1 John makes a clear distinction in having sin and walking in sin. We can walk above all the sin that we are aware of. Anything that God tells us "hey that's sin" we can overcome. As we grow in the Lord, he points out more areas in our life to overcome.

We can walk above all the known sin in our life. God is far more powerful than my sin.

faithfulfriend
Mar 7th 2008, 01:39 AM
We cannot resist temptation 100 percent. We will always at some point fail and give in.



Are you sure about that? The Bible says differently:

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

VerticalReality
Mar 7th 2008, 02:14 AM
Everyone admits to having sinned in the past but some say they are living their lives without sinning again and that is not something anyone can do in the flesh.

Of course you can't do it in the flesh. That is why Scripture says to walk in the Spirit. If you walk in the Spirit you won't sin. That's God's truth and it's plain to see.

VerticalReality
Mar 7th 2008, 02:17 AM
It's a bit disconcerting to me that many who talk about themselves and sin seem to be far above what Paul himself dealt with in his life. Either Paul was a terrible Christian or Paul is a realistic Christian speaking about his sins and struggles.

Once again, Paul goes on at the end of that chapter and into chapter 8 to say that there is deliverance and victory from this struggle in the flesh that he is having, and this comes through the Lord Jesus Christ. If Paul remains in the flesh he will do those things that he wishes he wouldn't. However, if Paul walks in the Spirit he will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh as he also proclaims in Galatians 5. You need to read the whole of what Paul is saying and not just a few verses in chapter 7 to get the big picture of truth. Anyone can read those few verses in chapter 7 alone and come to the conclusion that we are in bondage to sin. However, this would not be the complete truth that Paul is delivering, and unfortunately there's too many Christians out there teaching these defeated doctrines. It troubles me that so many try to take away from what Jesus Christ accomplished through His death and resurrection.

VerticalReality
Mar 7th 2008, 02:19 AM
All those things mean the same thing so it is about those things.

No, they absolutely do not mean the same thing. Perhaps instead of speaking so confidently you should pray about it and ask the Lord to give you wisdom on the issue. If you think they are the same you are definitely incorrect. There are many others in this thread who agree and see what it is I'm speaking of here, so perhaps it is you who needs to examine what you believe and allow the Spirit to give you revelation on a thing or two regarding our freedom from sin.

VerticalReality
Mar 7th 2008, 02:23 AM
This is akin to saying we aren't sinning when we aren't committing sins. It's a given, but no one can "walk in the Spirit" for all their life and never sin again. We will all to varying degrees walk in the flesh and sin.

How can you expect to walk in the Spirit all your life when you're constantly proclaiming "no one can walk in the Spirit all their life and never sin again"? If walking in the Spirit requires walking in faith, and the entire time you're proclaiming "walking in the Spirit all the time is impossible" . . . you aren't exactly filled with much faith are you?

ABLATT
Mar 7th 2008, 04:07 AM
No. A temptation isn't committing a sin. Besides it doesn't mean he felt tempted to sin but was tempted as in it was offered to him.



Correct.. a temptation is not a sin. I think the point being made by that question was just that.



We cannot resist temptation 100 percent. We will always at some point fail and give in.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

The subject is about committing idolatry.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Col. 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

All those things, fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence (evil lusts or desires), and convetousness... are labeled IDOLATRY.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 05:32 AM
Sure we can.

Not according to Paul in his own life.



It's also about any other temptation you want to throw in there. All sin is idolatry if you get right down to it.

You can't just add any extra temptations where scripture doesn't put them.

Lying isn't Idolatry. All sin isn't Idolatry.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 05:35 AM
1 John makes a clear distinction in having sin and walking in sin. We can walk above all the sin that we are aware of. Anything that God tells us "hey that's sin" we can overcome.


I don't agree.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Why do you say that and Paul says something different? Is he less of a Christian? He did the wrongs that he knew he shouldn't. He didn't "walk above them". That sounds so new-age like to me.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 05:37 AM
Are you sure about that? The Bible says differently:

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Eventually that will happen, until then we are like Paul whom knew what was wrong and yet still did that wrong even when he meant to do right. This is the struggle of man in the flesh.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 05:38 AM
Of course you can't do it in the flesh. That is why Scripture says to walk in the Spirit. If you walk in the Spirit you won't sin. That's God's truth and it's plain to see.

And why wasn't Paul able to do this?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.



Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 05:43 AM
Once again, Paul goes on at the end of that chapter and into chapter 8 to say that there is deliverance and victory from this struggle in the flesh that he is having, and this comes through the Lord Jesus Christ. If Paul remains in the flesh he will do those things that he wishes he wouldn't. However, if Paul walks in the Spirit he will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh as he also proclaims in Galatians 5. You need to read the whole of what Paul is saying and not just a few verses in chapter 7 to get the big picture of truth. Anyone can read those few verses in chapter 7 alone and come to the conclusion that we are in bondage to sin. However, this would not be the complete truth that Paul is delivering, and unfortunately there's too many Christians out there teaching these defeated doctrines. It troubles me that so many try to take away from what Jesus Christ accomplished through His death and resurrection.

I am balancing the perfect scenario that you present with reality from Paul's own testimony of his personal struggles with sin. It will always be a battle until God destroys sin and resurrects us into perfect bodies. You need to read the whole of what Paul is saying and not just a few verses to get the big picture of truth. This includes Romans 7 and Phil. 3 etc.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 05:46 AM
How can you expect to walk in the Spirit all your life when you're constantly proclaiming "no one can walk in the Spirit all their life and never sin again"? If walking in the Spirit requires walking in faith, and the entire time you're proclaiming "walking in the Spirit all the time is impossible" . . . you aren't exactly filled with much faith are you?

I happen to understand quite well the reality of dealing with sin while living in this sinful body as Paul so eloquently speaks of in Romans 7. Is he not filled with much faith as well? I only mirror his words. I can imagine the conversation you'd have with him on this same subject.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 05:52 AM
Col. 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

All those things, fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence (evil lusts or desires), and convetousness... are labeled IDOLATRY.

No, it only states that covetousness is idolatry. The others are different sins.


Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Gill

which is idolatry. The covetous man, and the idolater, worship the same for matter and substance, even gold and silver; the covetous man lays up his money, makes no use of it, as if it was something sacred; he looks at it, and adores it, and puts his trust and confidence in it, and his heart is so much set upon it, that he neglects the worship of the true God; and indeed no man can serve God and mammon.

Clarke

Covetousness, which is idolatry - For the covetous man makes his money his god. Now, it is the prerogative of God to confer happiness; every godly man seeks his happiness in God; the covetous man seeks that in his money which God alone can give; therefore his covetousness is properly idolatry. It is true his idol is of gold and silver, but his idolatry is not the less criminal on that account.


Barnes

And covetousness, which is idolatry - It is remarkable that the apostle always ranks covetousness with these base and detestable passions. The meaning here is:
(1) that it is a low and debasing passion, like those which he had specified; and,
(2) that it secures the affections which properly belong to God, and is, therefore, idolatry. Of all base passions, this is the one that most dethrones God from the soul. See this whole passage more fully explained in the notes at Eph_5:3-5.

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 11:44 AM
I don't agree.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Why do you say that and Paul says something different? Is he less of a Christian? He did the wrongs that he knew he shouldn't. He didn't "walk above them". That sounds so new-age like to me.

Sure he did. In Romans 8. No need to stay in Romans 7. Paul sure didn't.

VerticalReality
Mar 7th 2008, 01:25 PM
I happen to understand quite well the reality of dealing with sin while living in this sinful body as Paul so eloquently speaks of in Romans 7. Is he not filled with much faith as well? I only mirror his words. I can imagine the conversation you'd have with him on this same subject.

And again, you need to continue reading instead of stopping in chapter 7. Paul makes it quite clear that there is deliverance from this struggle he is having with the flesh. It comes through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.



Romans 7:24-25
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Let's not try to use excuses for sin. We have no excuse for our sin. This "bondage to sin" teaching for Christians is just garbage.

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 01:29 PM
And again, you need to continue reading instead of stopping in chapter 7. Paul makes it quite clear that there is deliverance from this struggle he is having with the flesh. It comes through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Right. The wilderness experience was all about faith. Israel didn't get into victory in Canaan because of fear and unbelief. Canaan is all about obedience and victory. Faith comes before victory.

VerticalReality
Mar 7th 2008, 01:41 PM
Sure he did. In Romans 8. No need to stay in Romans 7. Paul sure didn't.

Amen. People are being taught a very defeated and unbiblical position because many aren't taking in the whole of what Paul is saying.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 10:35 PM
Sure he did. In Romans 8. No need to stay in Romans 7. Paul sure didn't.

Romans 8 doesn't erase Romans 7. Paul admits he does wrong when he wants to do right. It's a human weakness towards sin. He says there is sin in his body and this is why.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 10:42 PM
And again, you need to continue reading instead of stopping in chapter 7. Paul makes it quite clear that there is deliverance from this struggle he is having with the flesh. It comes through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.



Let's not try to use excuses for sin. We have no excuse for our sin. This "bondage to sin" teaching for Christians is just garbage.

Romans 7 is the real life struggle. Romans 8 is the idealized concept of living without sin. Paul didn't live sin free or free of sin or above sin by his own admission.


Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The perfection comes in the future. For4 now, we are still in bondage of corruption, this corrupt flesh, the one he speaks of in the previous chapter that causes us to sin.


Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


If we were living above sin there would be no need for this intercession but Paul knows the truth of sin and our lives.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 10:49 PM
Let's not try to use excuses for sin. We have no excuse for our sin.

Would you speak so boldly to Paul as well?


Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Is he "making excuses" or giving a real excuse that explains the relationship between fallen man and his flesh and the weakness towards sin? He blames it not on himself but the sin in his body, "in my flesh".


Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

He even repeats this many times just so we can't ignore it!


This "bondage to sin" teaching for Christians is just garbage.


Garbage directly from the mouth of Paul.


Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


According to Paul, as long as we are in this flesh, we will have sin in us, that is our flesh, and that causes us to sin. We will be changed eventually but that is in the future.

faithfulfriend
Mar 7th 2008, 10:50 PM
Romans 7 is the real life struggle. Romans 8 is the idealized concept of living without sin. Paul didn't live sin free or free of sin or above sin by his own admission.


Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The perfection comes in the future. For4 now, we are still in bondage of corruption, this corrupt flesh, the one he speaks of in the previous chapter that causes us to sin.


Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


If we were living above sin there would be no need for this intercession but Paul knows the truth of sin and our lives.

If you read chapter 6 of Romans, you will see the apostle Paul also said:
“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Rom. 6:1, 2.
“For sin shall not have dominion over you . . .” Rom. 6:14.
“But now being made free from sin …” Rom. 6:22.
In these scriptures and many others, Paul clearly speaks of the Christian living triumphantly over sin.
He went on in Romans 7 to “speak to them that know the [Old Testament] law,” and, speaking in the present tense, described his unregenerate condition, wherein he did not have the power to overcome sin, before his conversion. Without salvation, no man is free from the law of sin and death.
Verse 23 describes Paul’s struggle with sin before he was saved. “I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Therefore he cried, in verse 24, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” He joyfully answers this question in Rom. 8:2–“The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.”
He was now free from the condemnation of sin because, through salvation, he was empowered to live free from committing sin. Hence, he could also go on to teach others to “awake to righteousness and sin not” (I Cor. 15:34).
In Rom. 7:19 he had said, “For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.” For people to insist that Paul still lived like this after being saved, they would have to negate all that Paul testified to and taught in Romans chapters 6 and 8, and all of his other writings, as well as all the New Testament writers. The apostle John said, “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.” When Paul was doing the evil that he would not, it was because he had not yet seen God; had not yet understood and experienced His great salvation.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 10:52 PM
Amen. People are being taught a very defeated and unbiblical position because many aren't taking in the whole of what Paul is saying.


Yes, ALL of Romans 7 and 8, not just a handful of verses from 8! People are being taught an unbiblical, idealized concept of perfection that NO HUMAN BEING can achieve while in the corrupted, sinful flesh. It is a doctrine of hypocrisy that teaches us to deny that we still sin and teach others they are defeated if they cannot live above and without sin. That is garbage!

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 10:58 PM
If you read chapter 6 of Romans, you will see the apostle Paul also said:
“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Rom. 6:1, 2.
“For sin shall not have dominion over you . . .” Rom. 6:14.
“But now being made free from sin …” Rom. 6:22.
In these scriptures and many others, Paul clearly speaks of the Christian living triumphantly over sin.

That must be balanced with things he says in the next chapter.




He went on in Romans 7 to “speak to them that know the [Old Testament] law,” and, speaking in the present tense, described his unregenerate condition, wherein he did not have the power to overcome sin, before his conversion.

No, he speaks in the present tense about himself and his sins at that moment. This was long after his conversion. He also speaks of similar things in other writings concerning still being perfected and not yet being finished. It's a long process full of errors and sins.



Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

"I don't do what I know is right. I do the things I hate." Not, I used to do what I hate...

Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

"I am not the one doing these evil things. The sin that lives in me is what does them."

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

"I have the will to do good but I can't seem to figure out how to do it"

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

"Instead of doing what I know is right, I do wrong."

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

"If I do what I don't want to do, this means that I am no longer the one who does it; instead, it is the sin that lives in me."

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

"The Law has shown me that, though I have a mind to do good, evil is present in me."

VerticalReality
Mar 8th 2008, 02:34 AM
Romans 8 doesn't erase Romans 7. Paul admits he does wrong when he wants to do right. It's a human weakness towards sin. He says there is sin in his body and this is why.

Actually, you have it backwards. Romans 7 does not erase Romans 8 . . . or Romans 6 . . . or Galatians 5 for that matter. Paul is informing folks that there is deliverance from sin if they would walk by faith and receive it. You are basing your entire defeated doctrine on a few verses in Romans 7 that are not taking into context the entirety of Paul's teaching.

Brother Mark
Mar 8th 2008, 02:38 AM
Yes, ALL of Romans 7 and 8, not just a handful of verses from 8! People are being taught an unbiblical, idealized concept of perfection that NO HUMAN BEING can achieve while in the corrupted, sinful flesh. It is a doctrine of hypocrisy that teaches us to deny that we still sin and teach others they are defeated if they cannot live above and without sin. That is garbage!

Our sins are tossed into the sea. Just as Peter walked above the sea so can we. Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy and give us victory over sin. We can have that victory! I am no longer bound to sin and have experienced real and lasting victory over many sins in my life. I look forward to more growth and even greater victory going forward! Romans 8 is what happens when one grows past Romans 7. God did not leave us defenseless against the enemy or our flesh. We can and some have, overcome.

In Joshua, there are 31 cities to conquer. Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow him. Each day, we have a city or stronghold to bring down. Every day can be a day of victory as we bring our thoughts captive to God.

VerticalReality
Mar 8th 2008, 02:40 AM
Romans 7 is the real life struggle. Romans 8 is the idealized concept of living without sin. Paul didn't live sin free or free of sin or above sin by his own admission.

Paul did absolutely live free of sin. He proclaimed so in Romans 6. Does Romans 6 not say that we are free from sin? Why does your teaching not agree with clear Scripture?


The perfection comes in the future. For4 now, we are still in bondage of corruption, this corrupt flesh, the one he speaks of in the previous chapter that causes us to sin.

And again, you're arguing something that has not been said one time in this entire thread. This is not about attaining perfection in this life.


If we were living above sin there would be no need for this intercession but Paul knows the truth of sin and our lives.

It's just as John says . . .

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

You aren't supposed to sin because you have been set free sin. However, if you do walk in disobedience and lack the faith to overcome some temptation . . . well, we have Jesus to intercede for us and forgive us.

VerticalReality
Mar 8th 2008, 02:56 AM
Would you speak so boldly to Paul as well?

Dude, Paul said it . . .

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Again, if you don't take into account the entirety of Paul's teaching you are going to invent a weak and defeated doctrine out of a couple of verses in Romans 7 that are just not indicative of the victory we have in Christ.


Is he "making excuses" or giving a real excuse that explains the relationship between fallen man and his flesh and the weakness towards sin? He blames it not on himself but the sin in his body, "in my flesh".

And he goes on to say that he is delivered from this flesh through Jesus Christ our Lord, and if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So, the question here is why aren't you experiencing this deliverance as opposed to being stuck in this self-invented, never-ending struggle you say we have no hope of being delivered from? This approach just isn't biblical. Let me ask you, what freedom or deliverance have you gotten from accepting Jesus as your Savior? Are you simply biding time until you can get your reserved cabin in the corner of heaven? Is that all the victory you live in?


He even repeats this many times just so we can't ignore it!

He repeats the victory we have over this even more, so why are you ignoring those Scriptures?


Garbage directly from the mouth of Paul.

I've quoted numerous passages of Scripture directly from Paul here that totally refute what you're saying. Romans 6 and 8 were written by Paul. Galatians 5 was written by Paul. Everything Paul said clearly proclaims what is being taught in this thread.


Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

You better hope this isn't the end here because the Word tells us that to be carnal is to be at enmity with God. You're carnal? Why do you think Paul spent so much time rebuking the Corinthians for being carnal? Are you now rejoicing in carnality? Paul says in Romans that to be carnally minded is death, and to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Which one are you? Paul certainly wasn't carnal. His flesh is indeed carnal, which is why he so adamantly demands that we walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh. You are calling Paul a hypocrite here. Why would Paul rebuke the Corinthians so harshly for the fact that they were carnal when you are declaring here that Paul was carnal also?


According to Paul, as long as we are in this flesh, we will have sin in us, that is our flesh, and that causes us to sin. We will be changed eventually but that is in the future.

That is why you are supposed to crucify the flesh by faith and walk in the Spirit. If you are walking in the Spirit you will not sin. This is how we are free from sin. You are to be a dead man walking. You are to be just as Paul proclaimed in Galatians 2 when he said that it is no longer he who lives but Christ who lives in him. If you are carnally minded, as you seem to want to proclaim with fervency here, you are an enemy of God. Is this what you are taking pride in being here? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and it is in total opposition to the Word of God.

VerticalReality
Mar 8th 2008, 03:01 AM
Yes, ALL of Romans 7 and 8, not just a handful of verses from 8!

Actually this teaching is taking into account the whole of Romans 6, 7 and 8 along with Galatians 5 and 1 John 2 and 3 just to name a few.


People are being taught an unbiblical, idealized concept of perfection that NO HUMAN BEING can achieve while in the corrupted, sinful flesh.


And once again you're showing that you lack understanding as nobody here has taught anything about perfection in this life.


It is a doctrine of hypocrisy that teaches us to deny that we still sin and teach others they are defeated if they cannot live above and without sin. That is garbage!

Can you point out one single time in this entire thread where someone has taught any such thing as what you're stating here? Who has said they are without sin? Who has said here that they will never sin?

Why does the majority of folks here understand this but you do not?

Brother Mark
Mar 8th 2008, 03:08 AM
Alright guys, let's play nice. No more "lack of understanding" or "doctrine of hypocrisy" comments.

RogerW
Mar 8th 2008, 03:28 AM
Our sins are tossed into the sea. Just as Peter walked above the sea so can we. Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy and give us victory over sin. We can have that victory! I am no longer bound to sin and have experienced real and lasting victory over many sins in my life. I look forward to more growth and even greater victory going forward! Romans 8 is what happens when one grows past Romans 7. God did not leave us defenseless against the enemy or our flesh. We can and some have, overcome.

In Joshua, there are 31 cities to conquer. Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow him. Each day, we have a city or stronghold to bring down. Every day can be a day of victory as we bring our thoughts captive to God.

You said we can and some have overcome. I assume you mean sinning in this life. If that is what you mean, could you name one person besides Christ who has lived in human flesh without sin?

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Mar 8th 2008, 03:50 AM
You said we can and some have overcome. I assume you mean sinning in this life. If that is what you mean, could you name one person besides Christ who has lived in human flesh without sin?

Many Blessings,
RW

1 John says that he who says he is without sin doesn't speak the truth. But then he goes on to say that one who is born of God does not sin. In other words, what sin we know about, we can overcome. We are not defeated. If God has convicted me or pointed out a sin in my life through scripture, He has done so with the intent of me overcoming it.

I thank God that he has delivered me from sin. As I mature, perhaps I will find more sin that needs to be repented of. But none of us needs to live in the wilderness and eat manna our whole lives. We can move into the Promised Land and eat the fruit thereof. When we walk in the Spirit we do not fulfill the deeds of the flesh.

If I can walk one minute in the Spirit, why not 2? And if 2, why not 3? Why can't we walk in the Spirit all the time? We can. We just choose not to.

But back to this hidden sin stuff. That is what trials are partly for. The hidden sin is revealed through the trial. Then our faith is purified as we repent and deal with it.

For what's it worth, I know we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Yet, I can't find anywhere in scripture where Joseph or Daniel sinned. ;)
But your question is a difficult one to answer. For it is worded for me to name one who hasn't sinned. We all have. But there are plenty that have overcome the sin known in their life. Paul being one. But no one has ever lived in flesh without sin. But things we know are sin, oh yea, we can overcome that!

VerticalReality
Mar 8th 2008, 04:29 AM
If I can walk one minute in the Spirit, why not 2? And if 2, why not 3? Why can't we walk in the Spirit all the time? We can. We just choose not to.

And that is exactly why a person can be both free from sin yet still commit sin. It's not that they were in bondage to sin. It was simply that they weren't choosing to walk by faith and overcome this sin through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Brother Mark
Mar 8th 2008, 04:34 AM
And that is exactly why a person can be both free from sin yet still commit sin. It's not that they were in bondage to sin. It was simply that they weren't choosing to walk by faith and overcome this sin through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Right. Joshua had the victory promised before he ever started fighting. So it is with us. We are free from sin. We fight from a position of victory knowing that the stronghold of Jericho is going to fall. Joshua conquered 31 cities, a city for each day. We can conquer all the strongholds in our life that we are willing to fight. The only ones we won't overcome are those sins that we don't recognize as sinful, just as Joshua went into covenant with those that he thought were not in the land. And the ones that we refuse to deal with, as the generation with Moses refused to deal with their giants because of fear and unbelief. And finally, simply because we don't know. When we know the truth, we get set free. Or said another way "my people perish for lack of knowledge". Conquering our sin is not a one time event. It is a city by city, step by step process. But conquer we can!

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 06:32 AM
Actually, you have it backwards. Romans 7 does not erase Romans 8 . . . or Romans 6 . . . or Galatians 5 for that matter. Paul is informing folks that there is deliverance from sin if they would walk by faith and receive it. You are basing your entire defeated doctrine on a few verses in Romans 7 that are not taking into context the entirety of Paul's teaching.

There are other words in other writings of Paul. It's not based on any one thing and I fully balance what he says in Romans 7 with Romans 8. The issue is those that read quickly over Romans 7, and then dismiss his words in favor of the perfection he speaks about in chp 8. We cannot do that and have the full truth.

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 06:37 AM
Our sins are tossed into the sea. Just as Peter walked above the sea so can we.

That's a perfect analogy. Tell us how long Peter walked above the sea.



Matthew 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
Matthew 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
Matthew 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.


We can walk on water (symbolically) for a bit, but we will sink because we are imperfect unlike Christ. We must call out for him to save us! This is an analogy for our life and our sins and trying to walk above them.




Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy and give us victory over sin. We can have that victory! I am no longer bound to sin and have experienced real and lasting victory over many sins in my life. I look forward to more growth and even greater victory going forward! Romans 8 is what happens when one grows past Romans 7. God did not leave us defenseless against the enemy or our flesh. We can and some have, overcome.

If you have sinned even one time after being saved then you have proven my point and proven yourself wrong.

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 06:40 AM
Paul did absolutely live free of sin. He proclaimed so in Romans 6.

That's odd because he proclaims how much he sins in the next chapter.



Why does your teaching not agree with clear Scripture?


Why doesn't yours?



And again, you're arguing something that has not been said one time in this entire thread. This is not about attaining perfection in this life.

If we sin we are not perfect. We all sin, even those that claim they haven't or no longer! Only Christ lived sin free and above sin in his life.






It's just as John says . . .

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

You aren't supposed to sin because you have been set free sin. However, if you do walk in disobedience and lack the faith to overcome some temptation . . . well, we have Jesus to intercede for us and forgive us.



That's my position but when I proclaim this and document it I get all these people that ramble on about living sin free and above sin!

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 06:42 AM
Actually this teaching is taking into account the whole of Romans 6, 7 and 8 along with Galatians 5 and 1 John 2 and 3 just to name a few.



And once again you're showing that you lack understanding as nobody here has taught anything about perfection in this life.



Can you point out one single time in this entire thread where someone has taught any such thing as what you're stating here? Who has said they are without sin? Who has said here that they will never sin?

Why does the majority of folks here understand this but you do not?

Just a couple posts ago you claimed we, and even Paul lived sin free! That's perfection!

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 06:44 AM
You said we can and some have overcome. I assume you mean sinning in this life. If that is what you mean, could you name one person besides Christ who has lived in human flesh without sin?

Many Blessings,
RW

I appreciate another voice on this side of the topic! Thanks!

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 06:46 AM
And that is exactly why a person can be both free from sin yet still commit sin.

That makes no sense at all. No wonder this issue is as it is! Now I understand how you can say the things you have been.

My heart's Desire
Mar 8th 2008, 06:58 AM
The Word does not say that. The Word says that if you walk by faith you will not sin at all. Therefore, if you do sin what does that say?

The Word also says that if you say you have no sin, the truth is not in you.

It also says that If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

ProjectPeter
Mar 8th 2008, 04:21 PM
Folks... Romans chapter 7 is not Paul speaking of his struggle with sin as a Christian. Paul is speaking of his struggle with sin while he was following the Law and how that Law didn't help him at all with this struggle. Everyone really needs to pay attention to this. I know I have posted this many times during my time on this board and it needs posted again... one day I'll remember to actually save this so I don't have to type it out all of the time! :lol:

Romans 7

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Now Paul changes from the marriage and death of the spouse analogy and brings it home using himself as an example... WHEN HE WAS UNDER THE LAW.


7 ¶What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

The Law did nothing AT ALL to help Paul live a life free of sin. It couldn't do it... it just told him what sin was. But that was all the power that the law had... a teacher. Paul, as a Christian, NEVER taught that you were in bondage to sin yet here he is speaking of being in that bondage. Why? He's not talking of what it was like living as a believer in Christ but living UNDER THE LAW.

How can he be free of this bongade? Jesus Christ. He ends this chapter taking us into what we call chapter 8 and there is the answer.

ProjectPeter
Mar 8th 2008, 04:24 PM
The Word also says that if you say you have no sin, the truth is not in you.

It also says that If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
But John is not saying that as something against "not sinning." All have sinned... that is John's point. But why is John telling the readers what he is telling them? He answers that question which really does contradict your point.

My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1 John 2:1

Now if he is telling us this so we might not sin... then he is telling us this so we might not sin. IF one does... they have and Advocate with the Father. But the point John is making here is that he is giving us words to empower us to not sin. One really can't get around that very clear fact.

VerticalReality
Mar 8th 2008, 05:12 PM
Good posts, PP.

And what you say is exactly why so many folks still fall in sin even though they "try" not to. This is why many in this thread do not relate to the truths Paul is delivering here. Many under the Old Covenant "tried" to walk free of sin, but the law in their members prevented them from doing so. They were slaves of sin, and in that they couldn't help but sin. However, through faith in Christ that bondage has been broken, and trying in the flesh just won't cut it. Only those who live and walk by faith in the perfect work of Christ will walk free of sin. Those who remain carnal in the flesh will still live in sin. Trying to do things in the flesh is attempting to live out the law. You have to do things by the Spirit. This is why so many struggle overcoming sin. They try through their own effort rather than through faith in the work Jesus Christ has done.

Brother Mark
Mar 8th 2008, 05:25 PM
That's a perfect analogy. Tell us how long Peter walked above the sea.



Matthew 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
Matthew 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
Matthew 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.


We can walk on water (symbolically) for a bit, but we will sink because we are imperfect unlike Christ. We must call out for him to save us! This is an analogy for our life and our sins and trying to walk above them.

It is a perfect analogy! Peter was able to walk on water UNTIL he looked away from Christ. Once his focus left Jesus, he fell.

Another important point, Peter walked on water before the Holy Spirit was given! Look at how much more powerful Peter's walk was AFTER he was baptized in the Holy Spirit. But even before the baptism, he was still able to walk on the water as long as he stayed close to Christ and kept his eyes on Him.


If you have sinned even one time after being saved then you have proven my point and proven yourself wrong.

Not really. For there are times I walk with God in deception not knowing of my sin. Once he reveals it, I confess and, through grace, conquer that sin. That is the balance between "he who says he is without sin is a liar". We all have sins that are hidden from us. But once they are revealed to us by God, then he also enables us to overcome. God is far greater and grace far greater than all my sin.

My heart's Desire
Mar 9th 2008, 04:43 AM
But John is not saying that as something against "not sinning." All have sinned... that is John's point. But why is John telling the readers what he is telling them? He answers that question which really does contradict your point.

My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1 John 2:1

Now if he is telling us this so we might not sin... then he is telling us this so we might not sin. IF one does... they have and Advocate with the Father. But the point John is making here is that he is giving us words to empower us to not sin. One really can't get around that very clear fact.I agree, but just the fact that we need an Advocate and need to confess our sin to stay in fellowship tells me that we are still sin prone even as believers. And the fact that we need instruction in overcoming tells me the same.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2008, 05:32 AM
I agree, but just the fact that we need an Advocate and need to confess our sin to stay in fellowship tells me that we are still sin prone even as believers. And the fact that we need instruction in overcoming tells me the same.

But nobody in this thread is making the argument that we aren't capable of sinning, so I'm confused as to the reason why you're arguing such a position in this topic. This topic is not about whether or not people are capable of sinning. Everyone should know that we have that capability. What this topic is about is the fact that Jesus Christ has given us freedom from sin, and we are no longer in bondage to it. If we walk by faith and believe that the Holy Spirit will empower us to walk in victory over sin we shall have it. That is 100% biblical truth and there's no getting around that fact.

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 06:02 AM
Folks... Romans chapter 7 is not Paul speaking of his struggle with sin as a Christian. Paul is speaking of his struggle with sin while he was following the Law and how that Law didn't help him at all with this struggle.

I completely disagree. Paul at no time speaks in the past tense for this, or speaks of his former sins. It's all current tense and he goes as far as to give his ideas as to why he sins when he doesn't want to and concludes it's the sin in him in his body, not really him. That completely repels any concept that he is speaking of a former time and not his current situation.

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 06:11 AM
It is a perfect analogy! Peter was able to walk on water UNTIL he looked away from Christ. Once his focus left Jesus, he fell.

That might be how it's portrayed in a movie or cartoon but the literal scriptural version says he began to sink when he started to fear, which was from doubt. Nothing is stated about "loosing focus on Christ" or looking away.



Not really. For there are times I walk with God in deception not knowing of my sin. Once he reveals it, I confess and, through grace, conquer that sin. That is the balance between "he who says he is without sin is a liar". We all have sins that are hidden from us.

That verse has nothing at all to do with so called "hidden sins" that we don't know of. It's about sins we do know of but try to deny!

My heart's Desire
Mar 9th 2008, 06:34 AM
But nobody in this thread is making the argument that we aren't capable of sinning, so I'm confused as to the reason why you're arguing such a position in this topic. This topic is not about whether or not people are capable of sinning. Everyone should know that we have that capability. What this topic is about is the fact that Jesus Christ has given us freedom from sin, and we are no longer in bondage to it. If we walk by faith and believe that the Holy Spirit will empower us to walk in victory over sin we shall have it. That is 100% biblical truth and there's no getting around that fact.
But you are. You say you are 100% free from sin and that only those who have the Spirit of Christ living in them and who have faith to overcome can be 100% free of sin and if they are not free then they are not saved because they are still in bondage to sin. Seems you are saying it in too black and white terms to me that if one sins they are not saved and if one never sins then they are saved. That is what confused me. Before the point of Salvation I believe in the Condition of Sin (the part Jesus took care of for those who believe) and after salvation the occurance of sins in the daily walk and how to deal with it. Concerning the last part I do believe as you've alluded to in your first post that a Christian cannot claim helplessness against sin. That there is a way of overcoming sin but not all sin all the time. If one could do that then John would not have listed the provision of having an Advocate if we do sin. But I believe that once you have Jesus as your Advocate you have Him all the time.
Do you think that a Christian who somewhere along the way sins by lack of faith to overcome or by disobeying and who is therefore not 100 percent free is then lost because of it? Someone who doesn't overcome sounds helpless to me. I'm beginning to sound like a chicken and the egg situation. :)
It sounds as if you are saying that.

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 06:38 AM
But nobody in this thread is making the argument that we aren't capable of sinning, so I'm confused as to the reason why you're arguing such a position in this topic.

Many speak as if they are sin free and even use that term. Also use walking above sin. It suggests they no longer sin, even outright denies that they sin. That's why people like myself are speaking against that type of language.


This topic is not about whether or not people are capable of sinning. Everyone should know that we have that capability.

It's not about being capable, it's about whether sin is committed or not when we are Christians. Some people speak as if they have risen to a place where they are no longer committing sins and suggest that all true Christians should or else they aren't truly saved or truly Christians or truly believe.




What this topic is about is the fact that Jesus Christ has given us freedom from sin, and we are no longer in bondage to it.

You'd have to define that very specifically so it can be understood properly.

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 06:40 AM
But you are. You say you are 100% free from sin and that only those who have the Spirit of Christ living in them and who have faith to overcome can be 100% free of sin and if they are not free then they are not saved because they are still in bondage to sin. Seems you are saying it in too black and white terms to me that if one sins they are not saved and if one never sins then they are saved. That is what confused me. Before the point of Salvation I believe in the Condition of Sin (the part Jesus took care of for those who believe) and after salvation the condition of sins in the daily walk and how to deal with it. Concerning the last part I do believe as you've alluded to in your first post that a Christian cannot claim helplessness against sin. That there is a way of overcoming sin but not all sin all the time.
Do you think that a Christian who somewhere along the way sins by lack of faith to overcome or by disobeying and who is therefore not 100 percent free is then lost because of it? Someone who doesn't overcome sounds helpless to me.
It sounds as if you are saying that.

I concur completely. We have independently come to the same conclusion.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2008, 06:58 AM
But you are.

Or perhaps you just aren't understanding well what is being said. Do you think that is a possibility?


You say you are 100% free from sin and that only those who have the Spirit of Christ living in them and who have faith to overcome can be 100% free of sin and if they are not free then they are not saved because they are still in bondage to sin.

Could you now point out where in this thread I stated that if a person does sin they are not saved? I have indeed said that believers are 100% free from sin, which is definitely Scriptural. I have also said that those who have the Spirit of Christ living in them and who walk by faith are 100% free of sin, which is 100% Scriptural. So, now it is up to you to pray for revelation on how this is indeed the truth. Scripture does say this, so the question is not whether or not it is biblical. The question is why you do not understand it.


Seems you are saying it in too black and white terms to me that if one sins they are not saved and if one never sins then they are saved. That is what confused me.

Then you are confused for no reason because that hasn't been said once in this thread.


Concerning the last part I do believe as you've alluded to in your first post that a Christian cannot claim helplessness against sin. That there is a way of overcoming sin but not all sin all the time.

But how could there be an ability to overcome sin if we are not 100% free of sin? If you are arrested by the police and thrown in jail, can you overcome those who are bringing charges against you if you're guilty? Wouldn't you have to be set free in order to walk away from such a situation? This is the exact point Paul is making in Romans 7, and ProjectPeter laid this out very well for you in his previous post. Paul is making a distinction in Romans between being under law and being under grace. Under law he cannot overcome his sin because the law brings him under bondage to sin. That's all the law did was identify sin and bring conviction of every transgression. However, Jesus Christ brought grace, which breaks the bondage of sin that produced our death through law. Therefore, those who walk by faith are no longer under law but under grace. If you are under grace you are free from the bondage of sin, and if you walk by faith you aren't under law. Therefore, you are no longer slave of sin, but you are a slave of God and righteousness.


Do you think that a Christian who somewhere along the way sins by lack of faith to overcome or by disobeying and who is therefore not 100 percent free is then lost because of it?

But again, this is something you still aren't understanding. Just because a Christian slips up and sins doesn't mean that they aren't free of sin. Committing a sin every now and then doesn't disqualify a person from the grace of God.

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 08:35 AM
But how could there be an ability to overcome sin if we are not 100% free of sin?

If anyone was 100% free of sin they would have no sin to overcome. They would have no need of the blood of Christ nor repentance. It's these confusing things you say which is causing confusion. How can you say you are 100% free of or from sin and yet say you sin sometimes?

Now, if you say you believe in the concept of right now human beings living entire lives 100% free of sin but admit you haven't been able to acheive it and know no one other than Christ who has, then we'd have some common ground but you seem to confess sinlessness and sinfulness at the same time. I just re-read this entire thread and all it's pages and there are at least 7 people who see the exact same contradictions that I do.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2008, 01:26 PM
I agree, but just the fact that we need an Advocate and need to confess our sin to stay in fellowship tells me that we are still sin prone even as believers. And the fact that we need instruction in overcoming tells me the same.Being "prone" doesn't mean we have to sin and that was John's point. IF we do (implying that it should be the rare thing and not the norm) we have an advocate.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2008, 01:28 PM
I completely disagree. Paul at no time speaks in the past tense for this, or speaks of his former sins. It's all current tense and he goes as far as to give his ideas as to why he sins when he doesn't want to and concludes it's the sin in him in his body, not really him. That completely repels any concept that he is speaking of a former time and not his current situation.So then you're going to have to show me where Paul ever teaches in Romans or anywhere else that as a Christian... we are under the Law. That is exactly what Paul was talking about in Romans 7 so if what you say is true... then Christian's are under the Law which would contradict everything Paul wrote earlier and later in that same letter. ;)

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2008, 04:22 PM
If anyone was 100% free of sin they would have no sin to overcome.

The Word disagrees with you. Paul very clearly said that we are free from sin in Romans 6, yet the Word also says that there is still the flesh to crucify. Therefore, your view here doesn't harmonize with God's Truth.


They would have no need of the blood of Christ nor repentance. It's these confusing things you say which is causing confusion. How can you say you are 100% free of or from sin and yet say you sin sometimes?

It's not just me that says . . . the Word says it also. Now, instead of asking me why don't you ask God why in His Word He has stated that we are free from sin? Do you think it is possible that we are indeed free from sin and you simply aren't understanding this truth? Or do you think you know it all and are in no need of revelation? Now, if there weren't absolutely crystal clear Scriptures that proclaimed our freedom from sin, I could understand your skepticism. However, this is not the case. The Word makes it absolutely, 100% crystal clear that we are free from being slaves of sin.


Now, if you say you believe in the concept of right now human beings living entire lives 100% free of sin but admit you haven't been able to acheive it and know no one other than Christ who has, then we'd have some common ground but you seem to confess sinlessness and sinfulness at the same time. I just re-read this entire thread and all it's pages and there are at least 7 people who see the exact same contradictions that I do.

And there are more who do not see any contradiction but see the plain truth of the Word. Why are you having so much difficulty with it? Perhaps it's because you need to seek God on the matter. I cannot give you revelation. Only God can do that. But first we have to humble ourselves and realize that we don't have it all figured out and ask God in faith to give us wisdom. Give it a shot.

The only thing you are proclaiming in this thread is that you are still in bondage to sin because you are still under the law.

Brother Mark
Mar 9th 2008, 05:46 PM
That might be how it's portrayed in a movie or cartoon but the literal scriptural version says he began to sink when he started to fear, which was from doubt. Nothing is stated about "loosing focus on Christ" or looking away.

Matt 14:29-30
29 And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became afraid, and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!"
NASB

Once our focus shifts from Jesus to the storm, we are bound to sink.


That verse has nothing at all to do with so called "hidden sins" that we don't know of. It's about sins we do know of but try to deny! Can we not overcome the sin that so easily besets us?

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 10:01 PM
So then you're going to have to show me where Paul ever teaches in Romans or anywhere else that as a Christian... we are under the Law. That is exactly what Paul was talking about in Romans 7 so if what you say is true...

No, that wasn't what he was talking about. He was speaking about his own struggle with sin and doing right and wrong as a Christian.

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 10:09 PM
Now, if there weren't absolutely crystal clear Scriptures that proclaimed our freedom from sin, I could understand your skepticism. However, this is not the case. The Word makes it absolutely, 100% crystal clear that we are free from being slaves of sin.

We may be free from being slaves but that isn't the same as saying free from sin or free of sin as you have kept repeating. Paul says "from from sin" twice in Romans 6 but both times it is related to being free from being slaves or servants to sin, but not "from from sin" literally. Nothing he says in Romans 6 means he was able to stop sinning because he talks about his current sins and issues in Romans 7. being freed from slavery to sin is very very different than any concept of being sin free.


The only thing you are proclaiming in this thread is that you are still in bondage to sin because you are still under the law.

I have only proclaimed that human kind are sinners, even those who are Christians, and that we are in need of Christ's blood. By saying this I have been attacked and accused mercilessly because some have this imagined doctrine that they can literally walk sin free like Christ.

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 10:13 PM
Matt 14:29-30
29 And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became afraid, and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!"
NASB

Once our focus shifts from Jesus to the storm, we are bound to sink.

Actually his focus shifts from the storm to Jesus in that verse. Still, it isn't about focus at all. Peter only began to sink because he had doubt in his mind, which is fear. He sank regardless of what his "focus" was on because he doubted he could remain atop the water.



Can we not overcome the sin that so easily besets us?


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sometimes we can, sometimes we can't or don't. either way we do sin and that scripture is about denying it to others and ourselves by claiming we are without sin. It makes us liars. This verse has nothing with any supposed hidden sins we don't know exist.

Brother Mark
Mar 9th 2008, 11:47 PM
Actually his focus shifts from the storm to Jesus in that verse. Still, it isn't about focus at all. Peter only began to sink because he had doubt in his mind, which is fear. He sank regardless of what his "focus" was on because he doubted he could remain atop the water.

Either way, when he lost faith, when he doubted, when he saw the storm, all of it points to the same thing, it was the cause of his sinking.


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sometimes we can, sometimes we can't or don't. either way we do sin and that scripture is about denying it to others and ourselves by claiming we are without sin. It makes us liars. This verse has nothing with any supposed hidden sins we don't know exist.


So, in your opinion, one CANNOT overcome a sin? He MUST sin at least some of the time?

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 02:36 AM
We may be free from being slaves but that isn't the same as saying free from sin or free of sin as you have kept repeating. Paul says "from from sin" twice in Romans 6 but both times it is related to being free from being slaves or servants to sin, but not "from from sin" literally. Nothing he says in Romans 6 means he was able to stop sinning because he talks about his current sins and issues in Romans 7. being freed from slavery to sin is very very different than any concept of being sin free.

So, then I guess we'll have to leave you to remain in the state you're in. If clear Scripture doesn't reveal the truth to you then nothing I say will.


I have only proclaimed that human kind are sinners, even those who are Christians, and that we are in need of Christ's blood. By saying this I have been attacked and accused mercilessly because some have this imagined doctrine that they can literally walk sin free like Christ.

Sounds like a martyrs complex to me. You invited your own presence in this thread, so don't act like everyone is coming down on poor ol' you. That's really not needed. Several people in this thread have tried to speak truth to you on this issue, and it is absolutely clear that you aren't going to receive it. Therefore, it's best to just shake the dust off the feet and move on.

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 03:11 AM
So, in your opinion, one CANNOT overcome a sin? He MUST sin at least some of the time?

"a" sin....sure. Some sins, sure. But remain fully sinless, no.

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 03:17 AM
So, then I guess we'll have to leave you to remain in the state you're in.

Same to you.



Sounds like a martyrs complex to me. You invited your own presence in this thread, so don't act like everyone is coming down on poor ol' you. That's really not needed.

Some people's attitudes weren't needed but it's expected.



Several people in this thread have tried to speak truth to you on this issue, and it is absolutely clear that you aren't going to receive it. Therefore, it's best to just shake the dust off the feet and move on.

And more than several have tried to speak the truth to you and others and yes it's been clear the truth won't be received. It won't be until all that contradictory, confused stuff is dealt with. I pray that this belief that one can be free of sin and yet sin sometimes is answered and made clear to be what it actually is.

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 03:33 AM
"a" sin....sure. Some sins, sure. But remain fully sinless, no.

So if one can overcome "a sin" or "some sins" why not "2 sins" or "all sins". What is it about those other sins that they have more power over a believer than grace does?

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 03:34 AM
Alright guys, play nice. No need for personal remarks.

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 03:43 AM
So if one can overcome "a sin" or "some sins" why not "2 sins" or "all sins". What is it about those other sins that they have more power over a believer than grace does?

It's not about grace. It's about humans being born into sinful flesh which drives us towards sin. We can do a lot to slow and sometimes stop that for awhile but we will always sin while we live in this world and this body. Once we have sinless bodies and sin is destroyed and there is a new world, no one will ever sin again.

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 03:46 AM
It's not about grace. It's about humans being born into sinful flesh which drives us towards sin. We can do a lot to slow and sometimes stop that for awhile but we will always sin while we live in this world and this body. Once we have sinless bodies and sin is destroyed and there is a new world, no one will ever sin again.

How do you handle scriptures that say we can overcome sin?

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 03:55 AM
How do you handle scriptures that say we can overcome sin?

I handle them the same as I handle the ones about sinning and needing Christ's blood to cleanse our sins. It's not a one time event!

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 03:58 AM
Same to you.

Victorious and 100% free from sin. I'll take that any day of the week.


Some people's attitudes weren't needed but it's expected.

It was expected? Then why are you acting as if you are surprised that folks are disagreeing with you with "woe is me" sort of comments about folks "attacking" you?


I pray that this belief that one can be free of sin and yet sin sometimes is answered and made clear to be what it actually is.

That's what I've been trying to get you to do from the start. God said if you lack wisdom then pray in faith and He will give to you liberally.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 04:00 AM
We may be free from being slaves but that isn't the same as saying free from sin or free of sin as you have kept repeating. Paul says "from from sin" twice in Romans 6 but both times it is related to being free from being slaves or servants to sin, but not "from from sin" literally. Nothing he says in Romans 6 means he was able to stop sinning because he talks about his current sins and issues in Romans 7. being freed from slavery to sin is very very different than any concept of being sin free.

For the record . . . for others that are viewing this thread. This is the ol' "the bible doesn't mean what it says" argument.

"It says free from sin but it doesn't really mean free from sin.":rolleyes:

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 04:01 AM
That's what I've been trying to get you to do from the start.

And do you plan to do this?

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 04:02 AM
And do you plan to do this?

Already did it. That's why I'm teaching it. I don't teach anything that I haven't gotten clear revelation from the Lord about.

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 04:02 AM
For the record . . . for others that are viewing this thread. This is the ol' "the bible doesn't mean what it says" argument.

"It says free from sin but it doesn't really mean free from sin.":rolleyes:

In the bible when the term "free of sin" appears it is shortened from the longer concept being free from slavery to sin but not literally free of sin as in sinlessness. The shortened version has been taken out of context and misused for a very long time.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 04:04 AM
In the bible when the term "free of sin" appears it is shortened from the longer concept being free from slavery to sin but not literally free of sin as in sinlessness. The shortened version has been taken out of context and misused for a very long time.

I don't agree with you, but just so we can see where you're coming from . . .

What exactly is the difference between being "free from sin" and "free from slavery to sin"?

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 04:09 AM
I don't agree with you, but just so we can see where you're coming from . . .

What exactly is the difference between being "free from sin" and "free from slavery to sin"?

The difference is between being a slave to sin so that one cannot refuse sin. It is a pure lifestyle. But being freed from that means a choice not to sin as one did before but that does not mean we will not sin, it just means less sin and more ability to live righteously. Taking it out of context and implying it means Christians won't sin in their lives is not correct.

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 04:10 AM
I handle them the same as I handle the ones about sinning and needing Christ's blood to cleanse our sins. It's not a one time event!

They're not a one time event. But scripture says if we walk in the Spirit we will not do the deeds of the flesh. Is that really true? Can we walk in the Spirit? Why can't we walk in the Spirit continually? Where's the limit that God put on us that prevents us from walking in the Spirit in perpetuity?

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 04:13 AM
But being freed from that means a choice not to sin as one did before but that does not mean we will not sin,

If you are freed from this sin why won't you keep from doing it?


it just means less sin and more ability to live righteously.

Where do you get this "ability" to live righteously?


Taking it out of context and implying it means Christians won't sin in their lives is not correct.

Who has said Christians won't sin in their lives? Why do you continue to argue things that haven't been said one time in this entire thread?

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 04:16 AM
Why can't we walk in the Spirit continually? Where's the limit that God put on us that prevents us from walking in the Spirit in perpetuity?


It's not a limit God sets but related to our imperfection in the flesh which makes us unable to maintain that Spiritual walk continually. Answer it yourself. Why does any true, faithful Christian ever sin? Answer that and you answer most of the questions you have been asking me.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 04:19 AM
It's not a limit God sets but related to our imperfection in the flesh which makes us unable to maintain that Spiritual walk continually.

So then you admit that you sinning is a matter of you not crucifying your flesh and walking in the Spirit. Correct?


Answer it yourself. Why does any true, faithful Christian ever sin?

If sin is taking place they are not being faithful.

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 04:21 AM
It's not a limit God sets but related to our imperfection in the flesh which makes us unable to maintain that Spiritual walk continually. Answer it yourself. Why does any true, faithful Christian ever sin? Answer that and you answer most of the questions you have been asking me.

Is this a passage we can't ever possibly do?

1 Peter 4:1-2

4 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
NASB

Naphal
Mar 10th 2008, 04:28 AM
Is this a passage we can't ever possibly do?

1 Peter 4:1-2

4 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
NASB

Not without sinning eventually. Do I really need to keep saying that? It's not about doing it, but the fact that no one can keep up this perfection.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 04:35 AM
Not without sinning eventually. Do I really need to keep saying that? It's not about doing it, but the fact that no one can keep up this perfection.

So, what you're saying is that Jesus freed us from sin as it proclaims in Romans 6, but when we do sin we are again slaves of sin? Wouldn't this mean that Jesus' work on the cross was not complete and He is needed as a sacrifice again? This goes against the Word as well. The work of Christ is good once and for all.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 04:36 AM
Is this a passage we can't ever possibly do?

1 Peter 4:1-2

4 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
NASB

Good one . . . .

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2008, 12:12 PM
No, that wasn't what he was talking about. He was speaking about his own struggle with sin and doing right and wrong as a Christian.You need to read it again... go back to the post I made on it that you responded to. You will see the MANY times that this is EXACTLY what Paul was talking about. His struggle with sin while in bondage to the Law as opposed to free in Christ.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7 ¶What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.


Now... I even bolded in blue and made the print bigger. Paul NEVER in ANY of his writings describes a Christian as one sold into bondage to sin. That is totally CONTRARY to the message Paul preached which was freedom in Christ. I know that folks have taught this wrongly for a long time as if it was Paul writing about his own struggles with sin while a Christian. Problem with that is... they are just flat out wrong. That is totally contrary to the entire letter to the Romans.

Servant89
Apr 15th 2008, 11:05 PM
Romans 7:15-25
For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself with the mind will serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin.

John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The key in Rom 7 is that Paul separates his mind from his flesh (called spiritual circumcision). He is not letting his flesh bring his relationship down and ruin his mind.

Questions:

1. How many years passed between the time Paul wrote Rom chapter 7 and chapter 8? Answer: about 5 minutes.

2. Was Paul walking on the spirit or in the flesh when he wrote Rom 7? Answer in the spirit, because as determined by his mind, he wanted to do good and he hated evil in his mind. Those lead by the spirit mind the things of God. He was doing that. But you judged him by the law and that places you under the law.

You are judging spiritual victory using the measure of the law instead of faith which is of the mind.

The Bible says that if you are perfect and do not sin any more (the arrogance!!!), you do not need to go to church (Eph 4:11-13).

The way to conquer is by being dead to the law (like ambulance drivers, fire trucks, etcc.). Where there is no law, there is no transgression and sin is not inputed where there is no law. That is the only way we can be saints, by what Jesus did on Calvary (removing the law that was againts us and nailing to the cross, out of the way) AND PAYING THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS.

There is a difference between walking in the spirit and in being under the law (2 Cor 3). Read Gal 2:16,21 and Gal 5:4.

Shalom

Servant89
Apr 15th 2008, 11:25 PM
Rom 7:4 States we can not marry Christ, nor bear fruit unless we are dead to the law.

Do not boast about the law (Rom 3:27)

Read Rom 9:31-32.

Answer this: Concerning the story about the 10 lepers in Luke 17:12-19. Jesus commanded them go to show themselves to the priest. As they left to go to the priest, they got healed and immediately one returned back , the other nine continued going to the priest. Why was Jesus disappointed at the nine that actually obeyed him and why was he so pleased at the one that did not go to the priest? Those of you that think that meeting the law is the best way to please him answer this. Why was Jesus so pleased at the one that turned back from doing what he was told to do?

Heb 10:14 states that by one offering Jesus perfected forever those that are sanctified. I believe that (through his blood I made my clothes clean)

If we can earn it, Jesus died in vain (Gal 2:21).

ProDeo
Apr 16th 2008, 09:41 AM
I really cannot understand why folks look at the very clear Scriptures given above and still argue what those Scriptures say.

All those VERY CLEAR Scriptures above say that a believer in Jesus Christ is absolutely 100% free from sin. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you truly believe, you are free from sin. If you do sin it is because you were flatout disobedient . . . not because you "couldn't help it" and you're still in bondage to sin.

Being disobedient is flatout sin.

There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. :)

Regards,

Ed

ProDeo
Apr 16th 2008, 10:20 AM
Unfortunately, there has been times where I have been disobedient to my Lord. However, this is not because I'm not free from sin, but rather because I was disobedient. There is a big difference there that apparently some aren't catching.

Conscious disobedience = sin. And all conscious sin starts with disobedience.

Regards,

Ed

ProDeo
Apr 16th 2008, 11:20 AM
Actually this is completely incorrect. Paul makes it clear that if you walk in the Spirit you WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. You walk in the Spirit by faith. Therefore, if you do fulfill the lusts of the flesh it is because you were not walking in the Spirit. Therefore, in turn, you are sinning because you are not walking by faith. Scripture clearly says this. Why do you argue the Word? Does Paul not say that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh? Does Romans 6 not say that we have been set free from sin? Is this not very clear Scripture? Why do you continue to argue these truths?

A hard topic VR and you have done very well to explain it. I understand what you are saying but please comment on this one:

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The text (presumably?) also written by Paul says nothing about walking in the Spirit or to constantly abide in Jesus (John 15:4), instead it urges to fight against sin with all your (natural?) strength.

Jesus Himself even said it in stronger words:

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye cause thee to fall, pluck it out and cast it from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Nevertheless like you I also believe God has set me free from sin (as explained in Rom 6-8) through the work of our Lord and that abiding in Jesus is the key (and only way) to continue our sinless life.

Unfortunately we are not free from temptations. Temptation so often and easily lead to disobedience and disobedience is sin. Note the Lord's Prayer in which our Lord specifically emphasizes to ask God to save us from temptation.

Regards,

Ed

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 11:28 AM
A hard topic VR and you have done very well to explain it. I understand what you are saying but please comment on this one:

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The text (presumably?) also written by Paul says nothing about walking in the Spirit or to constantly abide in Jesus (John 15:4), instead it urges to fight against sin with all your (natural?) strength.

Jesus Himself even said it in stronger words:

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye cause thee to fall, pluck it out and cast it from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Nevertheless like you I also believe God has set me free from sin (as explained in Rom 6-8) through the work of our Lord and that abiding in Jesus is the key (and only way) to continue our sinless life.

Unfortunately we are not free from temptations. Temptation so often and easily lead to disobedience and disobedience is sin. Note the Lord's Prayer in which our Lord specifically emphasizes to ask God to save us from temptation.

Regards,

Ed

When Jesus resisted sin in the Garden till great drops of blood fell, do you think he did that in the natural? His spirit was saying "yes" to God but his body was saying "no". The two were at battle and he prayed "Father, not my will but thine". He got the victory through watching and praying. His spirit was victorious over his body and he was then able to go to the cross. For the joy laid before him, he endured the cross.

We will never be able to overcome in the natural. That is why Jesus told us to "cut off the hand". In other words, cut off access in the natural because we can't overcome it naturally. In the spirit we can.

ProDeo
Apr 17th 2008, 09:43 AM
When Jesus resisted sin in the Garden till great drops of blood fell, do you think he did that in the natural?

No. But don't forget Jesus was God Himself. Is it right to make this comparison?


His spirit was saying "yes" to God but his body was saying "no". The two were at battle and he prayed "Father, not my will but thine". He got the victory through watching and praying. His spirit was victorious over his body and he was then able to go to the cross. For the joy laid before him, he endured the cross.

Right...


We will never be able to overcome in the natural. That is why Jesus told us to "cut off the hand". In other words, cut off access in the natural because we can't overcome it naturally. In the spirit we can.

As far as I see it: The new life planted in us wants only one thing, to serve and obey God and that state of mind is the entire work of the Holy Spirit in us. When temptation is looming the needs of our natural become in conflict with the nature of the new life in us, the nature that does not want to sin. At that point the situation cries for a choice. In this way I understand Hebrews 12:4

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Is that a spiritual process or a natural? I guess it's a combination, hence I added a question mark when I wrote the word "natural" in the post you reacted on.

To make things more complicated,

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Regarding topic, was our Lord suffering in these last moments with only His natural resources at his disposal? His own words are very clear, God has left Him. But then again, it's probably not wise to make a comparison with man because Jesus was God Himself.

Regards,

Ed

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 11:44 AM
No. But don't forget Jesus was God Himself. Is it right to make this comparison?

Jesus was a man and the comparison is valid. He resisted the same way we do, with the Holy Spirit. God is making us into the image of Christ. As we go through life we too will visit the garden and the cross. That is why Jesus said "take up your cross and follow me".


As far as I see it: The new life planted in us wants only one thing, to serve and obey God and that state of mind is the entire work of the Holy Spirit in us. When temptation is looming the needs of our natural become in conflict with the nature of the new life in us, the nature that does not want to sin. At that point the situation cries for a choice. In this way I understand Hebrews 12:4

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Is that a spiritual process or a natural? I guess it's a combination, hence I added a question mark when I wrote the word "natural" in the post you reacted on.

To make things more complicated,

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Regarding topic, was our Lord suffering in these last moments with only His natural resources at his disposal? His own words are very clear, God has left Him. But then again, it's probably not wise to make a comparison with man because Jesus was God Himself.

Regards,

Ed


No problem with most of that. Except that we can't overlook the fact that Christ is now in us and we are empowered. That is why Paul wrote "The life that I now live, I live by the faith of Christ" and "I am crucified with Christ" and "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me".

There is no temptation that comes our way that God does not provide a way of escape. As we walk in obedience, we can escape. Christ was our example and in Him, we can do as he did. Look at how the apostles responded before he died and after he died. Once they were empowered with the Holy Spirit, they behaved much like he did.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2008, 12:19 PM
Yes, Jesus Christ was and is definitely divine and God in the flesh. However, Jesus Christ walked as a man who was filled with God's Holy Spirit. Why are we expected to walk in the same ministry that Jesus did if it is not possible because Jesus is God and we aren't capable of it? The fact of the matter is that Jesus walked as we are supposed to walk. What He did while on earth in the flesh we are capable of through the Holy Spirit also. Therefore, we can look to Jesus and see how it can be for us as well if we walk in the Spirit.

Friend of I AM
Apr 17th 2008, 04:08 PM
Yes, Jesus Christ was and is definitely divine and God in the flesh. However, Jesus Christ walked as a man who was filled with God's Holy Spirit. Why are we expected to walk in the same ministry that Jesus did if it is not possible because Jesus is God and we aren't capable of it? The fact of the matter is that Jesus walked as we are supposed to walk. What He did while on earth in the flesh we are capable of through the Holy Spirit also. Therefore, we can look to Jesus and see how it can be for us as well if we walk in the Spirit.

The problem with this rationale is that you're making the assumption that we're divine as Christ is. We are NOT divine. The fact that Jesus was divine and is God was the reason why he was able to overcome the flesh. I see a huge problem with yours and others rationale on this. Of course faith in Christ's shed blood purifies us from all sin. But the purifying aspect of our walk is not by our strict observance of following the law to the letter, our purifying aspect is faith in Christ having done this.

We ourselves have not been transformed in the presence of God as of yet. None of the disciples and none of the prophets ever went on to declare themselves sinless before God or any man, what they did do was encourage/rebuke one another during their walks to not follow the ways of the flesh. Even Paul himself went on to testify before Timothy that he was indeed a "sinner." Of course Paul wasn't testifying to the fact that his life was characterized by sin, but he knew the reality of his present situation - which involved him waiting for the Lord to come and "perfect" him into an imperishable form.

Christ himself never preached that his followers were sinless. He even told them that if a brother sinned against another, to forgive them and/or rebuke them to get them on the right path. We need to get rid of this mentality that we are "sinless" when approaching the throne of God. Remember the Pharisee and the Publican. As it is written "No one is righteous." That doesn't mean that we aren't saved and purified through the shed blood of Christ Jesus, it just means that we do need to understand that we are not present with God right now, floating in the heavens..and little gods ourselves.

faithfulfriend
Apr 17th 2008, 04:14 PM
The problem with this rationale is that you're making the assumption that we're divine as Christ is. We are NOT divine.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 04:17 PM
The problem with this rationale is that you're making the assumption that we're divine as Christ is. We are NOT divine. The fact that Jesus was divine and is God was the reason why he was able to overcome the flesh. I see a huge problem with yours and others rationale on this. Of course faith in Christ's shed blood purifies us from all sin. But the purifying aspect of our walk is not by our strict observance of following the law to the letter, our purifying aspect is faith in Christ having done this.

We ourselves have not been transformed in the presence of God as of yet. None of the disciples and none of the prophets ever went on to declare themselves sinless before God or any man, what they did do was encourage/rebuke one another during their walks to not follow the ways of the flesh. Even Paul himself went on to testify before Timothy that he was indeed a "sinner." Of course Paul wasn't testifying to the fact that his life was characterized by sin, but he knew the reality of his present situation - which involved him waiting for the Lord to come and "perfect" him into an imperishable form.

Christ himself never preached that his followers were sinless. He even told them that if a brother sinned against another, to forgive them and/or rebuke them to get them on the right path. We need to get rid of this mentality that we are "sinless" when approaching the throne of God. Remember the Pharisee and the Publican. As it is written "No one is righteous." That doesn't mean that we aren't saved and purified through the shed blood of Christ Jesus, it just means that we do need to understand that we are not present with God right now, floating in the heavens..and little gods ourselves.

Hi Stephen. There are sins we struggle with but have victory over eventually. Jericho did not fall in a day. Sometimes we fight a sin for a while. We can have complete victory over sins. If lying is a stronghold, the weapons of our warfare are so mighty, that the stronghold of lying can be pulled down! Never again will I have to lie! Yet, there are areas of my life that I am not yet aware that are sinful. But as God reveals them, he also empowers me with the ability to walk above them. Sometimes, he reveals something to me and it is a royal battle and takes time. Sometimes these things are immediate. God just recently worked something in me that he first started 7 years ago. Now I know the process is just getting started and there is even more and deeper things to deal with.

When we say we can have power over sin and walk above sin, we are referring to the sin that God has pointed out in our own life. The things he puts his finger on, he grants us victory over. As we walk with him, the cutting gets deeper and deeper into our soul until there is nothing left to cut for self is gone.

Working the cross in someone is a process and takes time. Jesus in me is stronger than any sin in me. Through Him, we overcome all sin he convicts us of. We are not saying follow some letter of the law. Nor are we saying that we are perfect. Just that I can have victory over lying, over stealing, over cheating, mast*ur*bation, lust, etc. Yet, each of these things spring forth from the roots of the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the boastful pride of life. Do all those roots ever get completely out of a man? No. But the parts of those roots that manifest themselves in a way he can recognize them can be dug out. When we are not deceived about our sin, we can overcome it.

Friend of I AM
Apr 17th 2008, 04:27 PM
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Here's the entire passage..

3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

We share in the divine nature of Christ due to the Holy Spirit, that does not make us gods FF. If it were something as simple as God giving us his spirit, then any normal man could have been used to overcome the sin nature. Christ was/is divine. He is/was perfect and sinless. To state that we are the same as him is not an accurate or factual, or biblical assumption.

Peter even goes on to describe in the passage above that is is the "promise" of God, as well as the "faith" unto itself that makes us pure in the site of God. Christ is the promise. We are overcomers through him. Though we are weak, he is strong in us. We are saints because of him, but let's move forward and realize that only through faith in him do we become saints.

faithfulfriend
Apr 17th 2008, 04:33 PM
To state that we are the same as him is not an accurate or factual, or biblical assumption.


1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2008, 06:15 PM
The problem with this rationale is that you're making the assumption that we're divine as Christ is.

Where did I make that assumption?


The fact that Jesus was divine and is God was the reason why he was able to overcome the flesh.

Where's your Scripture declaring this and where do you draw your assumption that we have not been given the capability to overcome the flesh?


I see a huge problem with yours and others rationale on this.

Okay.


Of course faith in Christ's shed blood purifies us from all sin.

Sure.


But the purifying aspect of our walk is not by our strict observance of following the law to the letter, our purifying aspect is faith in Christ having done this.

Our "purifying aspect" is not from following the law at all. I'm not sure where you have concluded such a concept from my comments here.


We ourselves have not been transformed in the presence of God as of yet.

We are as transformed as we're going to get in the spirit. Our spirit is the same now as it will be for eternity.


None of the disciples and none of the prophets ever went on to declare themselves sinless before God or any man,

I don't see that anyone in this thread has stated otherwise.


Even Paul himself went on to testify before Timothy that he was indeed a "sinner."

If you are talking about where he stated he was "chief" of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15 he was not talking about currently. In context, in that passage he was talking about his former self before being born again.


Of course Paul wasn't testifying to the fact that his life was characterized by sin, but he knew the reality of his present situation - which involved him waiting for the Lord to come and "perfect" him into an imperishable form.

Where is this passage you're speaking of? If it is the passage I referenced above, Paul wasn't addressing his current situation but rather his old man before knowing the Lord.


Christ himself never preached that his followers were sinless.

Nobody here is stating that He did.


We need to get rid of this mentality that we are "sinless" when approaching the throne of God.

Could you now point out where anyone has stated that they are sinless here in this thread?

Friend of I AM
Apr 17th 2008, 07:08 PM
I think a lot of the problem that I have with this thread, and others like it is the fact that it turns the love of God into something that is very fickle, and dependant upon our ability to remain "sinless" within our walks. Salvation is based on "the promise", and the "promise" is fulfilled upon Christ's atonement sacrafice on the cross.

Do you truly believe that God is so fickle VR and others, as to condemn a man for making a mistake? Did he condemn David? Did he condemn Job? We are told that human being are like grass before God, whom he gives water..and at some point allows to wither and die. If we are but grass..and dirt, how then can we even think aside from the grace of God, we can do anything to achieve "sinlessness" or "perfection" aside from faith?

Where I see the problem with yours/others philosophy VR, is that it doesn't take into account that people are indeed human, and being that they are human - are prone to make mistakes from time to time. No one is righteous and completely perfect but God...Or as the scriptures state, when the perfect comes, the imperfect dissappears. I don't think the bible states that anyone is above reproach, save God almighty.


Perhaps the problem here is what we define as sin within this discussion..Do we define someone as hurting anothers feelings as sinful? Do we define another as forgetting to say their prayers before every meal as sinful? These are things that people are prone to do everyday. When's the last time you had a snack, and not thanked the Lord for giving you the snack? Thus if we are to define sin in these terms that I've given, everyone here has already been labeled a "sinner", and essentially proven themselves to be a liar if they've deemed themselves "sinless".


People who are new to the faith, can get caught up in this philosophy of achieving "sinlessness" within this life, so much so that they think that any little minor slight that they commit, no matter how small(belching in public, looking at someone the wrong way, forgetting to say their prayers once) automatically disqualifies them as a servant of God, and disconnects them from the receipt of God's grace within their lives. I don't like this philosophy on this particular premise alone, and it is very harmful to those who are weak in faith and in conscience.

To make things simple, to state that one can achieve "sinlessness" in the sense that Christ achieved it within their walks aside from faith(in Christ) is where the false doctrine lies.

Abraham was justified by faith. Even then, the faith that Abraham himself possessed was based on God's grace, not on himself.

The rationale..about being "sinless" is false in the assumption unto itself. It's essentially already giving merit to the idea that one has been able to look at their life, in entirety - from the perspective of God..and state that they will not commit any offenses against God at a future date. Ideally, we should go with a postive outlook that we won't commit any offenses against God and our bretheren in the future, but to state that one is already without sin...is a lie based on the simple premise that one does not know what the future hold for them.

So again, I agree with faith in God. I agree with Christ shed blood being able to cleanse the believer of all sin, and overcome all sin. I don't agree with anyone going before their brother, and stating that they are without sin - and that they to can become sinless based on any type of work other than faith. I think the most balanced, and perhaps accurate way to reflect one's standing in Christ, is to go by what the scriptures state - or specifically.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

In Christ,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 07:14 PM
He's not fickle Stephen. He loves us and accepts us. But he also empowers us to walk above our sin. It was learning that he accepted me as I was that began to empower me to walk above sin he was convicting me of. That was part of it for me. Shoot, there is sin in me he has yet to put his finger on. When he convicts me of it, he will empower me to overcome it. For now, I am blind to it. But one day, he will show it to me and that will be another sin that he empowers me to overcome.

Friend of I AM
Apr 17th 2008, 07:14 PM
1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

faithfulfriend
Apr 17th 2008, 07:19 PM
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

No disagreement there. There is only one God.

Eph 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

My point in posting the two previous scriptures in my two previous posts was to simply show that we are to walk as Christ did, in other words be Christ-like.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2008, 07:44 PM
I think a lot of the problem that I have with this thread, and others like it is the fact that it turns the love of God into something that is very fickle, and dependant upon our ability to remain "sinless" within our walks.

How so?


Salvation is based on "the promise", and the "promise" is fulfilled upon Christ's atonement sacrafice on the cross.

Nobody that I'm aware of has said that salvation is through anything other than the work of Jesus Christ.


Do you truly believe that God is so fickle VR and others, as to condemn a man for making a mistake? Did he condemn David? Did he condemn Job?

There is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus -- Romans 8:1

Why? Because the law is what brought condemnation and those who are born again are no longer under the law.


We are told that human being are like grass before God, whom he gives water..and at some point allows to wither and die. If we are but grass..and dirt, how then can we even think aside from the grace of God, we can do anything to achieve "sinlessness" or "perfection" aside from faith?

It is by the very grace that you are speaking of here that we are able to overcome sin. God, through His grace, has given us the ability to overcome all the power of the enemy . . . including sin.

No longer will sin have dominion over you -- Romans 6:14


Where I see the problem with yours/others philosophy VR, is that it doesn't take into account that people are indeed human, and being that they are human - are prone to make mistakes from time to time.

Could you point out where I have stated that folks won't make mistakes?

Additionally, I'm not "just human". I'm 1/3 Holy Ghost, my man! :lol:


No one is righteous and completely perfect but God...Or as the scriptures state, when the perfect comes, the imperfect dissappears. I don't think the bible states that anyone is above reproach, save God almighty.

This is where I agree with Paul and it needs to be no longer us who lives but Christ who lives in us. If you are dominated by Jesus and His Spirit there is no room for the imperfection of the flesh. We have to allow God's Spirit to have control.


Perhaps the problem here is what we define as sin within this discussion..Do we define someone as hurting anothers feelings as sinful?

Depends on how you're hurting their feelings. If you are hurting their feelings in an unloving manner then it is a sin. If you are hurting their feelings out of love then it is not sin.


Do we define another as forgetting to say their prayers before every meal as sinful?

I don't know any Scripture that says it is sinful to forget to say a prayer before a meal.


When's the last time you had a snack, and not thanked the Lord for giving you the snack?

What Scripture says it's a sin if you forget to thank the Lord for a snack?


Thus if we are to define sin in these terms that I've given, everyone here has already been labeled a "sinner", and essentially proven themselves to be a liar if they've deemed themselves "sinless".

You do not define sin. The Word of God does.


People who are new to the faith, can get caught up in this philosophy of achieving "sinlessness" within this life, so much so that they think that any little minor slight that they commit, no matter how small(belching in public, looking at someone the wrong way, forgetting to say their prayers once) automatically disqualifies them as a servant of God, and disconnects them from the receipt of God's grace within their lives. I don't like this philosophy on this particular premise alone, and it is very harmful to those who are weak in faith and in conscience.

Nobody in this thread is talking about living the rest of this life sinless.


To make things simple, to state that one can achieve "sinlessness" in the sense that Christ achieved it within their walks aside from faith(in Christ) is where the false doctrine lies.

Again, nobody here is talking about sinlessness. We're talking about being free from sin. And again, there is a difference between those two statements.


Abraham was justified by faith. Even then, the faith that Abraham himself possessed was based on God's grace, not on himself.

Everyone is justified by faith . . .


The rationale..about being "sinless" is false in the assumption unto itself. It's essentially already giving merit to the idea that one has been able to look at their life, in entirety - from the perspective of God..and state that they will not commit any offenses against God at a future date. Ideally, we should go with a postive outlook that we won't commit any offenses against God and our bretheren in the future, but to state that one is already without sin...is a lie based on the simple presence that one does not know what the future hold for them.

And again, you are arguing something here that hasn't been stated one time in this entire thread.


So again, I agree with faith in God. I agree with Christ shed blood being able to cleanse the believer of all sin, and overcome all sin. I don't agree with anyone going before their brother, and stating that they are without sin. I think the most balanced, and perhaps accurate way to reflect one's standing in Christ, is to go by what the scriptures state - or specifically.

Everything that has been stated by myself in this thread has been backed up completely by Scripture.

faithfulfriend
Apr 17th 2008, 07:49 PM
You do not define sin. The Word of God does.

I agree 100%. The Bible is our rule of faith.

Friend of I AM
Apr 17th 2008, 08:06 PM
This is where I agree with Paul and it needs to be no longer us who lives but Christ who lives in us. If you are dominated by Jesus and His Spirit there is no room for the imperfection of the flesh. We have to allow God's Spirit to have control.


Are you already perfect and have you finished running the race? Are you among those just men that God has already made perfect? Is the condition of this world in a perishable or imperishable state? Is your flesh in a perishable or an imperishable state?

My answer to these questions is no, I know however based on the faith that God has imparted upon me, however, that I am purified during my walk on this earth, and have faith that Christ being God and the finisher and perfecter of my faith, will make me perfect like him at some point as well. As I stated before...when the perfect comes, all imperfect disappears. God bless all, I hope no one has been offended by my testimony.

You can send me a PM or if you'd like to discuss further. It may take me a bit to respond though.

Friend of I AM
Apr 17th 2008, 08:07 PM
I agree 100%. The Bible is our rule of faith.

I agree with this 100% as well. Though I didn't quote every single verse in my testimony, if you read through what I posted, you'll see that much of it was based on scripture as well.

In Christ,

Stephen

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2008, 08:12 PM
Are you already perfect and have you finished running the race?

That which is perfect doesn't arrive until I exit this life and know just as I also am known. (1 Corinthians 13)


Are you among those just men that God has already made perfect? Is the condition of this world in a perishable or imperishable state? Is your flesh in a perishable or an imperishable state?

You already know the answers to these questions, but I fail to see how this relates to anything that has been stated in this topic. Would you care to explain without the rhetorical questions?

ProDeo
Apr 17th 2008, 10:48 PM
...

I missed your comments on Matthew 27:46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Was our Lord suffering in His last moments with only His natural resources at his disposal? His own words were very clear, God had left Him.

Well, of course you can argue that God (contrary to Jesus on the cross) will never forsake us (Hebr 13:5) but somehow that's contrary to your words that Jesus (God Himself in the human flesh) and men is a valid comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I also believe that we can overcome any sin as long as we keep on walking in the Spirit, the real issue at hand is just a matter of obedience when temptation is looming. In this way I understand Hebrews 12:4

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

and the choice we make, the flesh or to obey God.

I believe there are more differences between Jesus (God Himself in the human flesh) and men, that is, that Jesus was aware of all sins (conscious & unconscious) and that we are only aware of our conscious sins. I can not offer any Biblical evidence for that opinion but somehow it sounds so logical as Christ certainly was 100% without sin, the unconsciously ones included.

Regards,

Ed

Friend of I AM
Apr 18th 2008, 02:32 PM
This is where I agree with Paul and it needs to be no longer us who lives but Christ who lives in us. If you are dominated by Jesus and His Spirit there is no room for the imperfection of the flesh. We have to allow God's Spirit to have control.


Sorry, I had to respond to this and some of the other stuff VR posted. Of course we allow God's Spirit to control us, my stance unto itself is not based on God's Spirit having control over us in our daily walks, it's about the existence of us even being filled with the spirit, still walking and covered in the perishable flesh. That which is perishable, cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, thus we are still in a "sinful" condition while on this earth.

Granted, by the very loving nature of God, he excuses us of this sinful condition based on Christ's atonement sacrafice - and we no longer walk in this sinful condition of the dead sinful flesh, we walk in the Spirit.

Still, to state that one has no "imperfection" in their flesh, is a very innacurrate assumption at best, and false doctrine at worst - and you and others on here are deceiving yourselves by making such statements.

The only individual who could truly attest to divine perfection of the flesh would be Christ himself, being that he had complete control over life and death when he was here. If we truly possessed this exact same uniqueness as Christ when he was here through the spirit, we would also essentially have people bowing down to worship us, transfiguring like Christ did into the same glory as the Father. At this point though, there is only one begotten son of God, we all have been gracefully adopted by God the Father - based on Christ's shed blood, not on our own merit.

This is not to come down hard on anyone, we are all sinners - saved by the grace and mercy of God. Still despite dead flesh - we are still able to walk in the Spirit based on Christ imparting his spirit upon us.

Everyone please think about what you are saying for a minute - even Christ, never attributed perfection to himself, but instead to the Father even though he is/was one with the Father and God. He did indeed command us to be "perfect" however, but he attributed perfection to the Father and not himself(although we ourselves know he was/is perfect because he is God).

None of the disciples ever claimed that they were sinless. Paul even goes on to state that the perfector of our faith is Christ. Let us be real about our present condition on this earth, yet at the same time continue walking in the spirit. Let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that we are more than what we already are while here.

In Christ,

Stephen

Love_4_God
Apr 18th 2008, 02:47 PM
Ok, so here's my thing. I became a Christian last year. I immedietely lost my desire for drinking, drugs, porn, and cussing.

But I still have sins that I am having a lot of problems with. Anger outbursts, irritability, judging others, gossip, hurt feelings, and bad thoughts.

So does this mean I am not a Christian?

How can I get rid of ALL my sins, and be the person God wants me to be? I pray about this constantly, and read my Bible constantly, but still have these problems every single day. :(

Friend of I AM
Apr 18th 2008, 02:56 PM
Ok, so here's my thing. I became a Christian last year. I immedietely lost my desire for drinking, drugs, porn, and cussing.

But I still have sins that I am having a lot of problems with. Anger outbursts, irritability, judging others, gossip, hurt feelings, and bad thoughts.

So does this mean I am not a Christian?

How can I get rid of ALL my sins, and be the person God wants me to be? I pray about this constantly, and read my Bible constantly, but still have these problems every single day. :(

Keep on praying. That's the only thing I can advise you to do. Keep going forward - to the best of your ability and put your focus on Christ, not on your sins. I say this from first hand experience.

We all have fallen short of the grace and mercy of God. Love always endures, has hope, and has faith. Sometimes God allows certain things to exist within us so that we remain in him - and not become conceited with self. Remember when we are weak, he is strong. God bless you. I'll keep you in my prayers. Father God please watch over this individual, and help them to move forward in your love, sprinkling their conscience with the purity of your spirit, and experiencing the fullness of your grace within their lives. In Jesus name, Amen. :pray:

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 03:10 PM
Ok, so here's my thing. I became a Christian last year. I immedietely lost my desire for drinking, drugs, porn, and cussing.

But I still have sins that I am having a lot of problems with. Anger outbursts, irritability, judging others, gossip, hurt feelings, and bad thoughts.

So does this mean I am not a Christian?

How can I get rid of ALL my sins, and be the person God wants me to be? I pray about this constantly, and read my Bible constantly, but still have these problems every single day. :(

We conquer our sins one step at a time. It is not uncommon for God to deliver us immediately of some sins at the moment of salvation. But we must learn to war. God will give you the victory!

Check out Romans 6,7 and 8. I also like to read the book of Joshua for an understanding of overcoming sin. Look at the cities as sins we are to conquer.

Be blessed!!!!

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2008, 08:32 PM
That which is perishable, cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, thus we are still in a "sinful" condition while on this earth.

What sinful condition are we in? If you are saying you have a sin nature this is not indicative of what the Scriptures reveal about a born again Christian. You are either light or darkness. It's one or the other and cannot be both.


Granted, by the very loving nature of God, he excuses us of this sinful condition based on Christ's atonement sacrafice - and we no longer walk in this sinful condition of the dead sinful flesh, we walk in the Spirit.

If we are in Christ there is no "sinful condition". You speak as if there is some sinful state we are in that we cannot shake, but this is not true of what the Word says of us. You still from the mindset of a sinner being saved by grace. However, the Word of God states that I'm not a sinner but rather a saint.


Still, to state that one has no "imperfection" in their flesh, is a very innacurrate assumption at best, and false doctrine at worst - and you and others on here are deceiving yourselves by making such statements.

Where have I stated there is "no imperfection" in the flesh? You won't fine that anywhere in this thread. The flesh is nothing but imperfection. However, if you have your flesh crucified as you are supposed to by walking in the Spirit by faith, this should not be the problem you are making it out to be.


The only individual who could truly attest to divine perfection of the flesh would be Christ himself, being that he had complete control over life and death when he was here.

Jesus Christ did everything through the Holy Spirit, so I'm not sure what His flesh has to do with anything. You are able to walk in the Spirit just as He did. Let me ask you . . . why did Adam sin? You can't say it was because he had some corrupt flesh that was forcing him to sin. It was simply something Adam chose to do even thought he had no "sinful condition".


This is not to come down hard on anyone, we are all sinners

You'll have to speak for yourself on that one, friend. The Word declares me as a saint cleansed by the blood of Jesus. I no longer identify myself with that old dead sinner that was crucified with Christ.


Everyone please think about what you are saying for a minute - even Christ, never attributed perfection to himself, but instead to the Father even though he is/was one with the Father and God. He did indeed command us to be "perfect" however, but he attributed perfection to the Father and not himself(although we ourselves know he was/is perfect because he is God).

I would ask that you please read the responses carefully because I have stated REPEATEDLY throughout this thread that none of this is about attaining perfection in this life. This is simply a misunderstanding on your part.


None of the disciples ever claimed that they were sinless.

No disciples here are either.


Let us be real about our present condition on this earth

I am being extremely real about what the Word declares as our present condition. It's the lie of the enemy that deceives folks into buying into the deception that they are nothing but sinners who can't stop sinning and so on and so forth. Jesus Christ has provided complete victory over the enemy, and it is up to us to walk by faith and accept His work in us.


Let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that we are more than what we already are while here.

To the contrary, I believe it is you who has a false identity of who the Word says you really are, and in actuality I believe you are taking away significantly to the work Jesus Christ has done for you.

Friend of I AM
Apr 18th 2008, 09:03 PM
What sinful condition are we in?


There is no good thing that dwells within the flesh(Romans 7:18). The Word also tells us that the flesh is in a perishable state. We will be transformed into a completely incorruptable/sinless body, when the dead in Christ are raised(1 Corinthians 15:52). Though we are still in this dead perishable - fleshy body, we are still alive as we walk in the Spirit of the son of God. The doctrine that the flesh unto itself no longer has a sinful condition while on this earth, is a deceptive/heretical doctrine that is being taught by many in these last days.

This is not an accusation/judgement against who you are as a person or character, and I apologize if it has come across that way in my testimony. You contribute many good things within this forum regarding the Word. Still, you and others who profess this stance are in err. I pray that all of us come to the same knowledge of the truth and unity in Christ Jesus.

In Christian Love,


Stephen

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2008, 10:36 PM
There is no good thing that dwells within the flesh(Romans 7:18).

I agree 100%, which is why we are commanded to put to death the works of the flesh and walk in the Spirit. If your flesh is crucified like it is supposed to be, none of this arguing you're doing will matter much. You will walk in victory.


The Word also tells us that the flesh is in a perishable state.

Sure is, but this really has nothing to do with you living in sin. You live in sin not because the flesh is in a perishable state but rather because you are simply being disobedient to God and choosing to do something that you know is contrary to Him. You are simply doing the same as Adam did in the garden. Adam did not sin because he had some "sinful condition" but rather because he was flatout disobedient to God and chose to walk contrary to what he knew God commanded of him.


We will be transformed into a completely incorruptable/sinless body, when the dead in Christ are raised(1 Corinthians 15:52).

Praise the Lord for that!


Though we are still in this dead perishable - fleshy body, we are still alive as we walk in the Spirit of the son of God.

From the way you are talking it doesn't sound like yours is too dead. If you are sinning it is very much not dead. The only way it will be dead is if you choose by faith to crucify it and walk in the Spirit. This is something you have to choose to do by faith. If you don't walk by faith you will not be able to overcome sin and the flesh.


The doctrine that the flesh unto itself no longer has a sinful condition while on this earth, is a deceptive/heretical doctrine that is being taught by many in these last days.

Who here is teaching that the flesh doesn't have sin? You won't find that anywhere in this thread either. You will find, however, that those who walk by faith will put to death the deeds of the flesh by walking in the Spirit by faith and they will not sin in doing so. It's those who choose to be disobedient to God that will walk in the flesh and sin.


This is not an accusation/judgement against who you are as a person or character, and I apologize if it has come across that way in my testimony.

No need to apologize, my friend. I am not offended by anything you are stating. I'm simply trying to impart truth that you may not be totally aware of. I can see by your comments that you do not understand what it is that is being said in this thread. This thread is not about attaining perfection. This thread is not claiming that anyone lives sinless. This thread is talking about the 100% biblical truth that we are free from the bondage of sin. If you take the Word of God for what it says there is no way of getting around this fact. The reason Christians sin is not because they are in bondage to sin or they have some "sinful condition" that they cannot help. It is because they are flatout choosing to disobey God just as Adam did in the garden.


You contribute many good things within this forum regarding the Word.

And you as well . . .


Still, you and others who profess this stance are in err. I pray that all of us come to the same knowledge of the truth and unity in Christ Jesus.

Or perhaps it is you who is not understanding fully what is being said.

Friend of I AM
Apr 19th 2008, 03:21 PM
We're still in a natural body. Our bodies have not been transformed or been given a heavenly countenance as of yet. This is where the problem lies with a lot of testimony on here within this thread and those similar to it. It makes the assumption that we no longer have a body that's perishable. The perishableness of these bodies is due to sin. I have seen many statements made in here and other threads that individuals are sinless even though they are still in perishable bodies. This is a false assumption. If this were truly the case, then we would be as Christ was upon his resurrection. We are not at this stage in our walk yet, this is a reality that unfortunately we all have to deal with at this time. Though the creation in itself is frustrated at being in this state, it is good to continue to be in this state for a bit. It gives us hope, of something better than what we have now. Remember, the sacrafices of God are a broken and contrite Spirit.

In a very subtle way, this type of testimony seems to exclude the necessity of Christ being the ultimate finisher of our faith and God being the ultimate perfecter and transformer of us during the final stages of our walk.

Though we are filled with the spirit at this time, our bodies - and heaven and earth need to pass away before we can inherit these imperishable forms, and before God can give us new spiritual completely incorruptable bodies. This will happen in a twinkling of an eye. Having this hope/faith that God will take all that which is perishable/corruptable, and make it incorruptable alone is enough for one to be saved.

I don't attest myself to being sinless. The reality is that I am a sinner. Only Christ's shed blood is what purifies me in this walk, and makes me a saint. To state that one is a sinner, is not an admission of abiding by the sinful nature. It represents a true understanding of the necessity of Christ's shed blood and atonement sacrafice to cleanse them and purify them during their walk. My righteousnous, despite how many times I don't sin, is never enough to get me into heaven. Only Christ's righteousnous can get me and everyone else there, and provide a covering for my body and to be seen as righteous by God. I hope you see the truth represented in my testimony. Though I am weak, Christ is strong in me. His strength is manifested through my weakness.

God luck to you VR and everyone else in the thread. God bless.

drew
Apr 19th 2008, 03:49 PM
Some have mentioned Romans 7 as though it was a written as an analysis of the content of Christian experience by Paul. So, for example, in Romans 7 we have this:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207&version=31#fen-NIV-28095c)] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it

I have become convinced that Paul never intended this material to be taken as an analysis of the struggles of the Christian. Instead, I claim (following NT Wright), the above is an analysis of the state of the Jew living under Torah, viewed from a Christian perspective. And to make this case work, I need to make a case that Paul uses "I" not in reference to him as individual person, but rather as a "look back" to his status as a typical Jew before he became a Christian. Paul here is talking about the Law - the Jewish Law, the Law of Moses.

So, I will claim, this is a theological analysis and does not have any direct "application" to the content of the life of the believer.

I will not defend my claims in this post, but merely state them. But, if I am correct, we make a rather big mistake if we think that this is about "me in my present life as a Christian".

VerticalReality
Apr 19th 2008, 04:49 PM
It makes the assumption that we no longer have a body that's perishable.

Where has this assumption been made?


I have seen many statements made in here and other threads that individuals are sinless even though they are still in perishable bodies.

This is what makes me wonder if you are paying attention to anything I'm saying here. How many times am I going to have to say to you that this thread is not about being sinless or attaining perfection in this life? Now, if you can't actually go back through this thread and find where these statements have been made and reference them, why do you continue to stay off topic and argue something that hasn't been stated once?


In a very subtle way, this type of testimony seems to exclude the necessity of Christ being the ultimate finisher of our faith and God being the ultimate perfecter and transformer of us during the final stages of our walk.

And this is exactly the lack of understanding I'm talking about. You have it totally backwards here. This thread absolutely DOES NOT exclude the necessity of Christ but rather puts TOTAL TRUST and FAITH in the finished work of Christ and what he has done for us. Jesus Christ disarmed ALL principalities and powers, and there is no "sinful condition" that those who are born again can't shake. What sinful condition did Adam have that caused him to sin? According to your logic here Adam should have never disobeyed God. However, this is not the case and Adam definitely did disobey God. But it wasn't because of some mythical "sinful condition".

Why did Paul kick the man in 1 Corinthians 5 out of the church for his blatant sin against God? According to your reasoning here Paul was kicking this man out of the church for something he couldn't help but do because of this "sinful condition" he was in. However, this is not the truth of this situation. Paul kicked this man out of the church because he was blatantly disobeying God. Not because of some "sinful condition", but because of a complete lack of obedience. This man was sinning against God not because he couldn't help it, but because he was rejecting God's truth and walking by the course of this world instead.


I don't attest myself to being sinless.

And for what seems like the twentieth time, nobody here is stating anything about being sinless or having attained perfection either.


The reality is that I am a sinner.

Why are you? What sin are you committing, and why are you refusing to stop it? Do you even realize what you are saying here? Let me give you some clarification and I pray this will wake you up in regards to this "sinner" mentality. It absolutely goes right through me when someone professing to be Spirit-filled makes statements like "I'm just a sinner".

Do you know what the word "sinner" means in Scripture? Let me give you the Greek word for "sinner" in Scripture, and I will give you its definition as well. When you read what Scripture declares a "sinner", I want you to see if it describes you and if you can identify with it . . .



hamartolos -

1) devoted to sin, a sinner
a) not free from sin
b) pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
1) all wicked men
2) specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
a) tax collectors, heathen


Do you see what it is you're saying here? Are you sure you really want to identify yourself with such things as this? Why are you devoted to sin? Why are you not "free from sin" when Scripture clearly declares that you are?


To state that one is a sinner, is not an admission of abiding by the sinful nature.

That's exactly what such a statement says. Do you see above what the Scriptures declare a sinner to be? Is that what describes you? I'll tell you that isn't what describes me, nor should it be what describes any born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.


It represents a true understanding of the necessity of Christ's shed blood and atonement sacrafice to cleanse them and purify them during their walk.

But once you have accepted Christ's shed blood and atonement for your sin you are no longer in bondage to it. Scripture declares this as the truth. The question is whether or not folks believe it.


My righteousnous, despite how many times I don't sin, is never enough to get me into heaven.

If it's no longer you who lives but Christ who lives in you then it isn't "your righteousness". It's His righteousness that should abound in you.


Only Christ's righteousnous can get me and everyone else there, and provide a covering for my body and to be seen as righteous by God.

Is Christ's righteousness not in you? If it is why are you continuing to sin?


I hope you see the truth represented in my testimony. Though I am weak, Christ is strong in me. His strength is manifested through my weakness.

But your testimony is that Christ isn't strong in you. You are declaring here for everyone that sin is much stronger and that is why you can't stop doing it. Your testimony is that you have some "sinful condition" that the work of our Lord Jesus Christ has not overcome. This is completely and totally not true. This is a lie of the enemy to keep people defeated and living in sin. The church is filled today with a bunch of carnal and defeated people, and the devil is having a field day. When are folks going to fully trust in God and what His Word declares?