PDA

View Full Version : God doesn't like it when his enemies die.



Zorgblar
Mar 5th 2008, 08:38 PM
I was looking through this book i own about the bible and i found something that confirms that God doesn't like it when his enemies die.Read ezekiel 33:11 to see what i am talking about.

threebigrocks
Mar 5th 2008, 08:48 PM
Could you please post the scripture for us? Makes discussion a lot easier!

What do you think it says? What is your interpretation, Z?

Zorgblar
Mar 5th 2008, 08:58 PM
Could you please post the scripture for us? Makes discussion a lot easier!

What do you think it says? What is your interpretation, Z?

Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, As surely as i live, declares sovereign lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, o house of israel?".

To me this says that God doesn't like it when people die in thier sins and don't care anything about God and that he hopes that they turn to God before it's to late.

redeemedbyhim
Mar 6th 2008, 12:20 AM
Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, As surely as i live, declares sovereign lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, o house of israel?".

To me this says that God doesn't like it when people die in thier sins and don't care anything about God and that he hopes that they turn to God before it's to late.

He says it again in the NT.
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-word, not willing that any should perish, but that all shouldcome to repentence.

thethinker
Mar 6th 2008, 12:44 AM
Peter said that the Lord is long suffering toward "US" and not toward "them".

verse 3: "there will be scoffers walking according to THEIR own lusts".
verse 5: "THEY willingly forget...."

verse 9" "But the Lord is long suffering toward US, not willing that any should perish".

The "us" is to be distinguished from "them". Peter speaks about "them" and after that says, "BUT the Lord is long suffering toward US". So it is with the "us" that God suffers long. Nothing at all is said about His having patience with "them".

redeemedbyhim
Mar 6th 2008, 12:55 AM
Peter said that the Lord is long suffering toward "US" and not toward "them".

verse 3: "there will be scoffers walking according to THEIR own lusts".
verse 5: "THEY willingly forget...."

verse 9" "But the Lord is long suffering toward US, not willing that any should perish".

The "us" is to be distinguished from "them". Peter speaks about "them" and after that says, "BUT the Lord is long suffering toward US". So it is with the "us" that God suffers long. Nothing at all is said about His having patience with "them".

According to this then, the "all" is only the "all" of "us" (being believers)? Aren't we as believers all ready not perishing haven't we all ready repented?
So then He is willing that those who reject Him perish?

I want to learn more, so please don't think I'm asking to argue. Thanks.

thethinker
Mar 6th 2008, 02:54 AM
redeemedbyhim said: "According to this then, the "all" is only the "all" of "us" (being believers)? Aren't we as believers all ready not perishing haven't we all ready repented?
So then He is willing that those who reject Him perish?

I want to learn more, so please don't think I'm asking to argue. Thanks."

Dear redeemedbyhim,
The "all' is qualified by the first person "us". "God is long suffering toward US not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance". It does not say that God is longsuffering toward THEM. In fact, verse 7 says that the present earth is being reserved for the "destruction" of ungodly men (the "them" in verses 3,5).

Verse 15 says that the long suffering of God "is salvation" for the "us" of verse 9. So the earth is reserved for THEIR destruction while the long suffering of God is salvation for US.

Some of US have already come to repentance while others of US must yet come to repentance.

redeemedbyhim
Mar 6th 2008, 06:12 AM
redeemedbyhim said: "According to this then, the "all" is only the "all" of "us" (being believers)? Aren't we as believers all ready not perishing haven't we all ready repented?
So then He is willing that those who reject Him perish?

I want to learn more, so please don't think I'm asking to argue. Thanks."

Dear redeemedbyhim,
The "all' is qualified by the first person "us". "God is long suffering toward US not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance". It does not say that God is longsuffering toward THEM. In fact, verse 7 says that the present earth is being reserved for the "destruction" of ungodly men (the "them" in verses 3,5).

Verse 15 says that the long suffering of God "is salvation" for the "us" of verse 9. So the earth is reserved for THEIR destruction while the long suffering of God is salvation for US.

Some of US have already come to repentance while others of US must yet come to repentance.

You had me til the last sentence...sorry, I'm a bit slow apparently.
So, you're saying that "some of US" have repented but others haven't? Does this mean that God is talking about the Christians He's seeing in the future?

Naphal
Mar 6th 2008, 10:06 AM
Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, As surely as i live, declares sovereign lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, o house of israel?".

To me this says that God doesn't like it when people die in thier sins and don't care anything about God and that he hopes that they turn to God before it's to late.

What he is saying is that he prefers when a wicked person becomes a good person more than seeing a wicked person die.

Zorgblar
Mar 6th 2008, 10:10 AM
What he is saying is that he prefers when a wicked person becomes a good person more than seeing a wicked person die.

Everyone has their own ideas and your guess is as good as mine so if you want it to say that that works.:)

thethinker
Mar 6th 2008, 03:13 PM
You had me til the last sentence...sorry, I'm a bit slow apparently.
So, you're saying that "some of US" have repented but others haven't? Does this mean that God is talking about the Christians He's seeing in the future?

Yes! Some of "us" have repented already while others of "us" will eventually repent. God's longsuffering IS salvation (v. 15) toward ALL of "us", past, present and future.

grptinHisHand
Mar 6th 2008, 03:22 PM
He says it again in the NT.
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-word, not willing that any should perish, but that all shouldcome to repentence.
It is also found again in the New Testament in 1 Timothy 2:4. here it is in context:

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

thethinker
Mar 6th 2008, 04:50 PM
It is also found again in the New Testament in 1 Timothy 2:4. here it is in context:

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

The term "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4 refers to all classes of men. The term "all" must always be qualified by its context.

I had a discussion with a man about substance abuse. He told me that he has found that "all men" use drugs. Then he said that doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians, business men, black, white and the rich and poor use drugs.

My point: His term "all men" did NOT mean that all souls that live use drugs. He simply meant that the problem of drug abuse crosses over "all" socio-economic classes and "all" recial distinctions.

So we must also treat the word of God. The context defines "all". God speaks to us the way we speak. He speaks like us. And His salvation crosses over to all men, whether Jew and Gentile, man and woman, slave and free and rich and poor.

But He offers nothing at all to the unbelieving part of men.

Toolman
Mar 6th 2008, 04:57 PM
Not only does God not like it when His enemies die God loves His enemies and instructs us that if we are to be like Him we must also love our enemies:

Matt. 5:43-48 - “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Here we have the teaching of Christ telling us that if we are to be like God then we must love our enemies, those who curse us and hate us and use us because that is WHAT GOD DOES.. He loves those who hate Him, curse Him and use Him.

Christ even says that if we only love those who love us then we are no different than the tax collector. But God is not like this. He is contrasted against this type of love.

So, what is God's attitude towards His enemies? He loves them... plain and simple.

Romans 5:10 - For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Toolman
Mar 6th 2008, 05:20 PM
The term "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4 refers to all classes of men. The term "all" must always be qualified by its context.

I had a discussion with a man about substance abuse. He told me that he has found that "all men" use drugs. Then he said that doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians, business men, black, white and the rich and poor use drugs.

My point: His term "all men" did NOT mean that all souls that live use drugs. He simply meant that the problem of drug abuse crosses over "all" socio-economic classes and "all" recial distinctions.

So we must also treat the word of God. The context defines "all". God speaks to us the way we speak. He speaks like us. And His salvation crosses over to all men, whether Jew and Gentile, man and woman, slave and free and rich and poor.

But He offers nothing at all to the unbelieving part of men.

God offers mercy and grace to unbelieving and disobedient men.

As far as "all" meaning "all" then does God only mean all classes of men in these verses:

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Romans 5:18 - Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Romans 11:32 - For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Acts 17:30 - Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

1 Timothy 4:10 - For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

When we speak soteriologically of "all men" then it is obvious "all men" means exactly what it says.. all men.

BTW - Welcome to the board. I'm not trying to be a jerk here to you but simply sharing what I believe about the particular issue :)

thethinker
Mar 6th 2008, 06:32 PM
Brother Toolman said: "When we speak soteriologically of "all men" then it is obvious "all men" means exactly what it says.. all men".

If "all men" means exactly what [you think] it says then you must be a Universalist. You must conclude that all men will be saved and that no man will reside in hell. Paul said that "every knee shall bow and that "every" tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2).

The word "every" is the same Greek word for "all". The word is "pan", meaning "every" or "all".

If you are correct then Paul taught that every man will be saved. For he quoted Isaiah who said:

"Look unto Me all the ends of the earth and be saved, For I am God and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath and say, 'Surely in the Lord I have righteousness'" (Isaiah 45:22-24).

God said that EVERY knee shall bow and that EVERY tongue tongue shall swear that Christ is His righteousness.

Therefore, you must conclude that ALL men will swear allegiance to Christ and be saved. For God "swore by Himself and it shall not return" that ALL MEN shall swear allegiance to Christ and claim Him as their salvation.

So either define "all" according to context or adopt Universalism.

Toolman
Mar 6th 2008, 06:35 PM
Brother Toolman said: "When we speak soteriologically of "all men" then it is obvious "all men" means exactly what it says.. all men".

If "all men" means exactly what [you think] it says then you must be a Universalist.

Yes, I am a reformed (evangelical) universalist. So, let's just get that on the table :lol:


You must conclude that all men will be saved and that no man will reside in hell. Paul said that "every knee shall bow and that "every" tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2).

The word "every" is the same Greek word for "all". The word is "pan", meaning "every" or "all".

If you are correct then Paul taught that every man will be saved. For he quoted Isaiah who said:

"Look unto Me all the ends of the earth and be saved, For I am God and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath and say, 'Surely in the Lord I have righteousness'" (Isaiah 45:22-24).

God said that EVERY knee shall bow and that EVERY tongue tongue shall swear that Christ is His righteousness.

Therefore, you must conclude that ALL men will swear allegiance to Christ and be saved. For God "swore by Himself and it shall not return" that ALL MEN shall swear allegiance to Christ and claim Him as their salvation.

So either define "all" according to context or adopt Universalism.

As I said I am a universalist but that does not negate that arminians also conclude that "all" means "all" in 1 Tim. 2 as do many reformed believers also.

Toolman
Mar 6th 2008, 06:43 PM
Here is what Spurgeon (a reformed pastor) had to say about 1 Tim. 2:4 and the "all men":

It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved. Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. “All men,” say they,—”that is, some men”: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said “some men” if he had meant some men. “All men,” say they; “that is, some of all sorts of men”: as if the Lord could not have said “all sorts of men” if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written “all men,” and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the “alls” according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, “Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth.” Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, “Who will have all men to be saved,” his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, “God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”



http://calvinandcalvinism.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/spurgeon-on-1-tim-24/

Toolman
Mar 6th 2008, 06:48 PM
Here is what Charles Hodge (Principal of Princeton Theological Seminary and a reformed believer) had to say about 1 Tim. 2:4:

This is the meaning of the passage. That it is the correct one is plain, 1. Because it is agreeable to the meaning of the word thelein. In innumerable cases it means to love, delight in, to regard with satisfaction as a thing desirable. “Sacrifice and offerings thou wouldst not,” “neither hadst pleasure therein.” “Ye cannot do the things that ye would.” “For what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that I do.” “We would see a sign from thee.” “Be it unto thee even as thou wilt.” ” If he delight in him” is ei thelei auton. 2. This passage thus interpreted teaches just what the Scriptures elsewhere teach of the goodness of God. 3. It does not contradict the Scriptures as the other does, or make God mutable or impotent. 4. It is accordant with all known facts. It agrees with the fact, that God is benevolent, as shown in his works, and yet that he permits many to perish.

This truth is of great importance, 1. Because all religion is founded on the knowledge of God and on the proper apprehensions of his character. We should err fatally if we conceived of God as malevolent.

2. The conviction that God is love, that he is a kind Father, is necessary to encourage sinners to repent. The prodigal hesitated because he doubted his father’s love. It was his hope that encouraged him to return.

3. This truth is necessary to our confidence in God. It is the source of gratitude and love.

4. It is to be held fast to under all circumstances. We are to believe though so much sin and misery are allowed to prevail. We are not to resort to false solutions of this difficulty, to assume that God cannot prevent sin, or that he wills it as a means to happiness. He allows it because it seems good in his sight to do so, and this is the highest and the last solution of the problem of evil.


http://calvinandcalvinism.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/charles-hodge-on-1-tim-24-common-sense-exegesis/

AliveinChristDave
Mar 6th 2008, 08:54 PM
I hope I haven't posted the same thing twice. I proof read after I viewed my post and then did something wrong and lost everything so here is the proof read version still containing a few errors I'm sure.
Maybe a moderator can fix the goof up if there is one.


Here is what Charles Hodge (Principal of Princeton Theological Seminary and a reformed believer) had to say about 1 Tim. 2:4:

This is the meaning of the passage. That it is the correct one is plain, 1. Because it is agreeable to the meaning of the word thelein. In innumerable cases it means to love, delight in, to regard with satisfaction as a thing desirable. “Sacrifice and offerings thou wouldst not,” “neither hadst pleasure therein.” “Ye cannot do the things that ye would.” “For what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that I do.” “We would see a sign from thee.” “Be it unto thee even as thou wilt.” ” If he delight in him” is ei thelei auton. 2. This passage thus interpreted teaches just what the Scriptures elsewhere teach of the goodness of God. 3. It does not contradict the Scriptures as the other does, or make God mutable or impotent. 4. It is accordant with all known facts. It agrees with the fact, that God is benevolent, as shown in his works, and yet that he permits many to perish.

This truth is of great importance, 1. Because all religion is founded on the knowledge of God and on the proper apprehensions of his character. We should err fatally if we conceived of God as malevolent.

2. The conviction that God is love, that he is a kind Father, is necessary to encourage sinners to repent. The prodigal hesitated because he doubted his father’s love. It was his hope that encouraged him to return.

3. This truth is necessary to our confidence in God. It is the source of gratitude and love.

4. It is to be held fast to under all circumstances. We are to believe though so much sin and misery are allowed to prevail. We are not to resort to false solutions of this difficulty, to assume that God cannot prevent sin, or that he wills it as a means to happiness. He allows it because it seems good in his sight to do so, and this is the highest and the last solution of the problem of evil.


http://calvinandcalvinism.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/charles-hodge-on-1-tim-24-common-sense-exegesis/

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I'm not a Greek scholar so this will be in layman's language.
If I understand the word and correctly it can mean that the two things it connects can be basically the same thing but expressed different ways like twins joined together or it can connect two entirely different things like for instance cow and horse.
Some might think I'm a universalist but I don't consider myself one in the strickest sense because even though I believe God wills all men to be saved, and what He wills will come to pass, I don't believe all men will come to the truth.
Being saved and coming to the truth are two different things. Not that they differ as far as God wills, but they differ in the instance in which they happen.
I can use the phrase "it is God's will for you to get married and be joined together" with that man or woman, which ever the case may be.
You meet someone, that someone integers you and eventually the one you have met consumes you and if you are a man you ask her to marry you. (if you are a woman you don't ask but if you know this is the fellow for you even before the question gets popped. :) )
So you get married by the minister and emotionally and every other way you're joined together except for the physical aspect of it.
At that point you are married--"saved" but you haven't been joined together--Come to the knowledge of the truth.
I hope that makes sense because it is the principal on which the entire will of God stands and operates.
God sent the fire at the dedication of the temple and the offerings were made (2 Chronicles 6)but it wasn't until later that the Temple was perfected (2 Chronicles 7) when Solomon finished the work on it.
I love Brother Spurgeon. God used him to bring me to Sovereign Grace understanding then used him in bringing me through sovereign grace to the understanding I have now.
I can't go to the book and give you a quote but Bro. Spurgeon preached three aspects of salvation.
1. We are saved
2. We are being saved
3. We will be saved.
He toughed this because he had a wonderful understanding of holiness and righteousness.
He knew they were things we developed while we are being saved and that if they weren't evident in a believers life they would suffer loss at the judgment.
That's what this verse is about in 1 Timothy 2.
We are saved--That's God's will for all
(my universal kicks in because I believe Christ died for all and that all will eventually come to the knowledge that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings even though it will be at the judgment seat of God that it takes place)
Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Philippians 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
I've had Calvinist argue that the "Every knee and every tongue" doesn't really mean "every." Let them argue. They're wrong.
Brother Spurgeon used the term "Older Calvinist friends." I believe he was speaking of the die hard five point hyper calvinist but that's just my opinion.
I believe Bro. Spurgeon understood the last part of this verse in 1 Timothy.
He knew that all men had to come to the knowledge of truth. That was the "being saved" part of salvation. It was the "working out your salvation" in Philippians 2:12. It is the knowledge. 2 Peter 3:18 says we grow in grace and KNOWLEDGE.

thethinker
Mar 6th 2008, 10:02 PM
I appreciate that brother Toolman has laid it out on the table that he is a Universalist. However, Universalism cannot be true because the reference to every knee and to every tongue in Isaiah 45 refers to the elect.

"That you may know that I, the Lord, Who call you by my name, am the God of Israel. For Jacob My servant's sake, and Israel My ELECT" (45:3-4).
Therefore, the reference to "every" knee and "every" tongue in verses 22-23 has reference to God's covenantal people ALONE. CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! ;)

Universalism is false also because God said to Abraham "In Isaac shall thy seed be called". It made no sense for God to say this if He was going to save all mankind indiscriminately. Why say "In Isaac shall salvation come" if all of humanity is to be saved? :confused

Furthermore, Jesus said that hell was prepared for the devil and his "messengers". The devil's messengers are human.

Finally, going back to 2 Peter 2 we read that the earth is being reserved for the "judgment and damnation of ungodly men" (v.7) This makes no sense if if Universalism is true.

thethinker

divaD
Mar 6th 2008, 10:40 PM
Furthermore, Jesus said that hell was prepared for the devil and his "messengers". The devil's messengers are human.


I never looked at it that way before. I never even heard of that before this post. Suppose you can shed some light how angels ie: 'messengers'(humans) were in heaven with satan and got cast out?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels ie: 'messengers'(humans) were cast out with him.

BTW, I'm not claiming satan's messengers are humans...you are. If satan's messengers are humans in Matthew 25:4, then they must also be humans in Revelation 12:9, right?.

Toolman
Mar 6th 2008, 10:44 PM
I appreciate that brother Toolman has laid it out on the table that he is a Universalist. However, Universalism cannot be true because the reference to every knee and to every tongue in Isaiah 45 refers to the elect.

"That you may know that I, the Lord, Who call you by my name, am the God of Israel. For Jacob My servant's sake, and Israel My ELECT" (45:3-4).
Therefore, the reference to "every" knee and "every" tongue in verses 22-23 has reference to God's covenantal people ALONE. CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! ;)

Universalism is false also because God said to Abraham "In Isaac shall thy seed be called". It made no sense for God to say this if He was going to save all mankind indiscriminately. Why say "In Isaac shall salvation come" if all of humanity is to be saved? :confused

Furthermore, Jesus said that hell was prepared for the devil and his "messengers". The devil's messengers are human.

Finally, going back to 2 Peter 2 we read that the earth is being reserved for the "judgment and damnation of ungodly men" (v.7) This makes no sense if if Universalism is true.

thethinker

Nevertheless, Universalism (and its biblical support) is not what the post was referring to.

The question was whether 1 Tim. 2:4 when speaking of "all men" was actually refering to "all men" or "all types of men" and as I shared there are many within even the reformed camp who agree with the scripture and its plain statement of "all men" meaning exactly what it says... "all men".

That was the point, not the side rabbit trail of universalism.

Naphal
Mar 6th 2008, 10:55 PM
I never looked at it that way before. I never even heard of that before this post. Suppose you can shed some light how angels ie: 'messengers'(humans) were in heaven with satan and got cast out?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels ie: 'messengers'(humans) were cast out with him.

BTW, I'm not claiming satan's messengers are humans...you are. If satan's messengers are humans in Matthew 25:4, then they must also be humans in Revelation 12:9, right?.

Sometimes the word aggelos means a human messenger but when taken in context an "angel" is almost always an angelic being, non human. The angels with Satan in that verse are literal angels, not human messengers.

RogerW
Mar 6th 2008, 11:01 PM
Nevertheless, Universalism (and its biblical support) is not what the post was referring to.

The question was whether 1 Tim. 2:4 when speaking of "all men" was actually refering to "all men" or "all types of men" and as I shared there are many within even the reformed camp who agree with the scripture and its plain statement of "all men" meaning exactly what it says... "all men".

That was the point, not the side rabbit trail of universalism.

Greetings TM,

Would you agree that the "all" in vs 4 refers to the same "all" as in vs 1; "first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;"? Would you also agree that the context of this passage is that of praying for "all" people, such as kings, and "all" that are in authority?

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Mar 6th 2008, 11:02 PM
Sometimes the word aggelos means a human messenger but when taken in context an "angel" is almost always an angelic being, non human. The angels with Satan in that verse are literal angels, not human messengers.



That makes sense to me. That's how I see it too.

Naphal
Mar 6th 2008, 11:05 PM
Nevertheless, Universalism (and its biblical support) is not what the post was referring to.

The question was whether 1 Tim. 2:4 when speaking of "all men" was actually refering to "all men" or "all types of men" and as I shared there are many within even the reformed camp who agree with the scripture and its plain statement of "all men" meaning exactly what it says... "all men".

That was the point, not the side rabbit trail of universalism.


That whole conversation is a rabbit trail in this thread.

Toolman
Mar 6th 2008, 11:25 PM
That whole conversation is a rabbit trail in this thread.

I disagree since the topic of the thread is how God feels about his enemies and 1 Tim. 2:4 was used to support the position that God doesn't like it when His enemies die (the topic of the thread) which was posted in post #12 by grptinHisHand.

Brother Mark
Mar 6th 2008, 11:26 PM
Guys, let's not let this become about calvinism, or arminianism. Keep it on track. It's a simple OP. ;)

Thanks.

Toolman
Mar 6th 2008, 11:33 PM
Greetings TM,

Would you agree that the "all" in vs 4 refers to the same "all" as in vs 1; "first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;"? Would you also agree that the context of this passage is that of praying for "all" people, such as kings, and "all" that are in authority?

Many Blessings,
RW

No Roger, I would not agree that the "all men" in vs. 1 is limited to kings and those in authority.

1 Tim2:1-7 - Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Timothy was simply being encouraged to pray for all men (every single individual) and encouraged to pray for kings and those in authority.

A simple man's prayer may be "Lord I pray that all men's eyes would be opened to your truth and embrace you as Saviour. I pray for our leaders that they follow your ways that we may live a quiet and peaceable life."

Not that complex :)

And, of course, verse 6 gives us another contextual point in referencing that Christ gave Himself a ransom for "all" to be testified in due time.
So, I definitely see the "all men" being exactly what it plainly states... all men.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 12:00 AM
I disagree since the topic of the thread is how God feels about his enemies and 1 Tim. 2:4 was used to support the position that God doesn't like it when His enemies die (the topic of the thread) which was posted in post #12 by grptinHisHand.


Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

God hates his enemies. God will destroy them, but the verses in question speak to his preference that wicked men turn good rather than having to be killed.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

thethinker
Mar 7th 2008, 12:06 AM
That whole conversation is a rabbit trail in this thread.

I don't see the whole conversation as a "rabbit trail". I am showing that brother Toolman's definition of the term "all men" leads to Universalism. When we make assertions we should be willing to discuss all the implications of those assertions.

If the term "all men" means the whole of humanity indiscriminately, then all men indiscriminately will be saved. So hell will be empty of men. These are the clear implications of brother Toolman's definitions.

Jesus said that He would draw "all men" unto Himself (John 12:32). He said also that all men who are drawn to Him will be resurrected to life (John 6:44). Jesus will draw all races of men to Himself. So likewise in 1 Timothy. God will have all races of men to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This would infer that there is no resurrection to damnation. Yet Jesus said that there is a resurrection to damnation as well as a resurrection to life (John 5:29).

Therefore, the term "all men" CANNOT mean the whole of humanity indiscriminately. In fact, in John 12:32 the Reformation Study Bible renders " all men" as "all peoples", that is, all races of men. Jesus wil draw all races of men to Himself. It is likewise in 1 Timothy. God will have all races of men to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 12:12 AM
I don't see the whole conversation as a "rabbit trail". I am showing that brother Toolman's definition of the term "all men" leads to Universalism. When we make assertions we should be willing to discuss all the implications of those assertions.

The thread was hijacked from the 4th post. It should be about whether God enjoys killing the wicked or not. The answer is yes. Does he prefer they repent? Yes.

Toolman
Mar 7th 2008, 12:20 AM
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

God hates his enemies. God will destroy them, but the verses in question speak to his preference that wicked men turn good rather than having to be killed.

God loves His enemies as Christ taught (see my post #14 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1562945&postcount=14)) and the apostle Paul tells us in Romans 5.


James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

James 2:13 - because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment

Yes, mercy triumphs over judgement. Praise His name else we would be doomed.

thethinker
Mar 7th 2008, 12:22 AM
The thread was hijacked from the 4th post. It should be about whether God enjoys killing the wicked or not. The answer is yes. Does he prefer they repent? Yes.

OK. We'll get back on track. It is true that God takes no pleasure in the desath of the wicked. But who are the "wicked" in Ezekiel? The context identifies the wicked as the "house of Israel". Who was the house of Israel? They were God's old covenant ELECT.

Therefore, the "wicked" in view are God's ELECT people and He takes no pleasure in their death. There is no statement at all in Ezekiel about God's feelings towards the death of non-covenantal people.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 12:23 AM
God loves His enemies as Christ taught (see my post #14 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1562945&postcount=14)) and the apostle Paul tells us in Romans 5.

Please quote any scripture that says "God loves his enemies" because I haven't read it. I posted that God very soul hates the wicked and those that love violence.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 12:24 AM
OK. We'll get back on track. It is true that God takes no pleasure in the desath of the wicked. But who are the "wicked" in Ezekiel? The context identifies the wicked as the "house of Israel". Who was the house of Israel? They were God's old covenant ELECT.

Therefore, the "wicked" in view are God's ELECT people and He takes no pleasure in their death. There is no statement at all in Ezekiel about God's feelings towards the death of non-covenantal people.

I think the real meaning of the verse and why God said what he said is being lost.

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 12:39 AM
Let's keep this thread on track to the OP.

Toolman
Mar 7th 2008, 12:45 AM
Please quote any scripture that says "God loves his enemies" because I haven't read it.

I already did in post #14. Jesus Himself said to be like God we must love our enemies, those who curse and hate us. He said anything else was no better than the love of the tax collector.

Here is more proof positive:

Romans 5:8-10 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Colossians 1:21 - And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled



I posted that God very soul hates the wicked and those that love violence.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Thank God, as you posted... Mercy triumphs over judgement. For there is none righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10).

RogerW
Mar 7th 2008, 12:57 AM
I don't see the whole conversation as a "rabbit trail". I am showing that brother Toolman's definition of the term "all men" leads to Universalism. When we make assertions we should be willing to discuss all the implications of those assertions.

If the term "all men" means the whole of humanity indiscriminately, then all men indiscriminately will be saved. So hell will be empty of men. These are the clear implications of brother Toolman's definitions.

Jesus said that He would draw "all men" unto Himself (John 12:32). He said also that all men who are drawn to Him will be resurrected to life (John 6:44). Jesus will draw all races of men to Himself. So likewise in 1 Timothy. God will have all races of men to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This would infer that there is no resurrection to damnation. Yet Jesus said that there is a resurrection to damnation as well as a resurrection to life (John 5:29).

Therefore, the term "all men" CANNOT mean the whole of humanity indiscriminately. In fact, in John 12:32 the Reformation Study Bible renders " all men" as "all peoples", that is, all races of men. Jesus wil draw all races of men to Himself. It is likewise in 1 Timothy. God will have all races of men to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Greetings Thinker, and welcome to the community.

I agree. In fact I believe the context in this passage is of praying for all men, regardless of rank, station, race or nationality (vs 3 & 4). I like what William Hendriksen has to say in his commentary: "Once it is seen that the expression "all men" in verses 1 and 4 indicates "all men regardless of social, national, and racial distinctions" and not "one by one every member of the entire human race, past, present, and future, including Judas and the antichrist," the logic of the entire paragraph becomes clear. All men, in the sense explained, must be remembered in prayer and thanksgiving (vs 1), rulers as well as subjects (vs 2), because God desires that all men be saved and come to acknowledge the truth (vss 3 & 4). There is not one God for this group, and another for that group; there is not one Mediator for this nation, another for that nation, but only one God for all men, and only one Mediator for all men, the man Christ Jesus (vs 5), who gave himself as a ransom not just for this one particular group or nation but for all, to which good news testimony was to be borne when the favorable opportunity arrived (vs 6). hence, I, Paul was appointed to be a techer of Gentiles, in order that not only Jews but also Gentiles - hence, all men on an equal footing - might come to accept the truth by a living faith (vw 7)."

Paul gives reason why we must pray for those mentioned above. (1) This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God and Savior, who is the Savior of all men in the way of providence and the Savior of the elect in the way of special or saving grace (1Ti 4:10). (2) It is the will of God that all races of men be saved and come to a knowledge of Christ. Our Lord has a people in every nation, tongue and kindred. (3) There is but one true and living God whom, if any man is to be saved, he must know. There is but one Mediator through whom, if any man is to approach God for mercy, he must come (Jo 14:6). (4) When the Lord made atonement for sin, this sacrifice was made for men of all nations, for Gentiles as well as Jews, for rich and for poor (1Jo 2:2). (5) Paul is the apostle of the gospel to the Gentiles (all men) as well as to the Jew.

Many blessings,
RW

thethinker
Mar 7th 2008, 01:01 AM
I think the real meaning of the verse and why God said what he said is being lost.

Please tell me what you think the real meaning of the verse is.

Through the prophet Ezekiel God was calling the wicked of Israel to repent. God was calling His old covenant people to repentance. It was not a call to the wicked outside the covenant to repent.

It was not a statement about God's feelings towards the death of the Gentile wicked. It was all about Israel (vs. 1,10, 12, 20). Nothing can be inferred one way or the other about God's feelings towards the death of people who are not under God's covenant.

It's bed time in my time zone. Good night!

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 01:02 AM
Thank God, as you posted... Mercy triumphs over judgement. For there is none righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10).

I also posted (in the same verse) that God will judge some without any mercy at all.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 01:05 AM
Please tell me what you think the real meaning of the verse is.

Through the prophet Ezekiel God was calling the wicked of Israel to repent. God was calling His old covenant people to repentance. It was not a call to the wicked outside the covenant to repent.

It was not a statement about God's feelings towards the death of the Gentile wicked. It was all about Israel (vs. 1,10, 12, 20). Nothing can be inferred one way or the other about God's feelings towards the death of people who are not under God's covenant.

It's bed time in my time zone. Good night!


What he is saying is that he prefers when a wicked person becomes a good person more than seeing a wicked person die.


It isn't limited to the wicked of a certain race of people.

Toolman
Mar 7th 2008, 01:35 AM
I also posted (in the same verse) that God will judge some without any mercy at all.

Actually, in context, the verse says no such thing. James is teaching the people how not to act... merciless. Why? Because God is merciful.

James 2:8-13 - If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

God's always has mercy towards sinful man:

Romans 11:32 - For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

That is why mercy will always triumph over judgement.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 01:40 AM
Actually, in context, the verse says no such thing. James is teaching the people how not to act... merciless. Why? Because God is merciful.


Context shows that God will judge those who had no mercy with no mercy. It's fair! If you lived a life without showing mercy then GOD will not show you mercy when he judges you.

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Toolman
Mar 7th 2008, 01:59 AM
Context shows that God will judge those who had no mercy with no mercy. It's fair! If you lived a life without showing mercy then GOD will not show you mercy when he judges you.

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Make no mistake. I have never claimed there will not be a judgement. We will all stand before Christ's judgement seat.

Nevertheless, scripture teaches that God is merciful to His enemies. Not only is He merciful... He loves those who curse Him and hate Him.

That is why He is God and we are not, though we often try to make Him in our image.

Naphal
Mar 7th 2008, 06:01 AM
Nevertheless, scripture teaches that God is merciful to His enemies.

Where? God is merciless against his enemies:


Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.





Not only is He merciful... He loves those who curse Him and hate Him.

So much that if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you will never be forgiven! That's love alright :)

I think you are confusing that we are commanded to love out enemies but God has the right to hate whomever he wants to.


Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Proverbs 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Proverbs 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Proverbs 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.




That is why He is God and we are not, though we often try to make Him in our image.

And place our limitations upon him.

Toolman
Mar 7th 2008, 02:41 PM
Where? God is merciless against his enemies:

Throughtout the whole of scripture God is shown to be merciful. Here is one simple example:


Romans 5:8-10 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Colossians 1:21 - And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled


Do you see that Naphal. God reconciled His enemies to Himself by putting His Son to death on the cross. Welcome to Christianity 101.
God is merciful, not merciless, to His enemies.

Let me ask you a simple question. Were you, at one time, God's enemy? Were you counted among the wicked before you came to faith in Christ?

Was God merciful to you, His enemy?


Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Yes, note how the passage says that God will judge "His people".

And note what else the writer of Hebrews reveals to us:

Hebrews 12:8 - But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God judges His people, God chastises His children. So we see, if we have merciful eyes, that God's judgements, disciplines, chastisement come from His love and mercy.

Isaiah 26:9 - ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


So much that if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you will never be forgiven! That's love alright :)

It most certainly is if God, by His mercy, restrains men from blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He's good that way :)


I think you are confusing that we are commanded to love out enemies but God has the right to hate whomever he wants to.

God commands flow from God's character, attributes and nature. God does NOT command contrary to WHO HE IS.... Ever!

Which is EXACTLY what Christ teaches us here:

Matt. 5:43-48 - “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Here we have the teaching of Christ telling us that if we are to be like God then we must love our enemies, those who curse us and hate us and use us because that is WHAT GOD DOES.. He loves those who hate Him, curse Him and use Him. That is exactly what Christ taught us in this passage.

Christ even says that if we only love those who love us then we are no different than the tax collector. But God is not like this. He is contrasted against this type of love.

So, what is God's attitude towards His enemies? He loves them... plain and simple.


Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Proverbs 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Proverbs 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Proverbs 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Did you at one time, before faith in Christ, fall into this group that God hates?
Were you numbered among the unrighteous and the wicked?

So, let's simply ask, did God's mercy for you triumph over His judgement?

Did God have mercy on you?

Then obviously He is merciful towards His enemy.


And place our limitations upon him.

I could not agree more. Man's merciless, sinful heart is often imposed upon God. But scripture teaches us different.

God's mercy endures forever (42 scriptures) (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=mercy%20endures%20forever&version1=50&searchtype=all&spanbegin=1&spanend=73)

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 7th 2008, 03:01 PM
Hi Toolman!

Hope all is well...





Where? God is merciless against his enemies:

Throughtout the whole of scripture God is shown to be merciful. Here is one simple example:

<SNIP>

Asking a question based on Naphal's quoted comment in paraphrasing, Does God's mercy extend to His enemies?

You quote a listing with reasonings of mercies, for which are great to hold onto and I thank you, but does this list ultimately apply to His enemies as well?

To start, I site:

Psalm 21:8-10
8 Your hand will find out all your enemies;
Your right hand will find out those who hate you.
9 You will make them as a fiery oven in the time of your anger;
The LORD will swallow them up in His wrath,
And fire will devour them.
10 Their offspring You will destroy from the earth,
And their descendants from among the sons of men.


Heard it was 70ish in southernTexas yesterday.... oh I'm sinning a bit, I'm a bit jealous... :lol:

Toolman
Mar 7th 2008, 03:10 PM
Hi Toolman!

Hope all is well...

Asking a question based on Naphal's quoted comment in paraphrasing, Does God's mercy extend to His enemies?

You quote a listing with reasonings of mercies, for which are great to hold onto and I thank you, but does this list ultimately apply to His enemies as well?

To start, I site:

Psalm 21:8-10
8 Your hand will find out all your enemies;
Your right hand will find out those who hate you.
9 You will make them as a fiery oven in the time of your anger;
The LORD will swallow them up in His wrath,
And fire will devour them.
10 Their offspring You will destroy from the earth,
And their descendants from among the sons of men.

Well, we may go a bit too far into my personal positions here than the board is comfortable with but I would simply ask you RBG.

Were you, at one time, the enemy of God?

Did His right hand find you out? Did he make you as a fiery oven in His anger.
Did the Lord's wrath swallow you up? Did His fire devour you?

If so, what was the result of this action of God upon you as His enemy?

If not, then what kept this passage from being fulfilled if God said that is what He would do?


Heard it was 70ish in southernTexas yesterday.... oh I'm sinning a bit, I'm a bit jealous... :lol:

I'm in north Texas brother and its snowing and 36 degrees... so I'm jealous of my south Texas friends also :lol:

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 7th 2008, 03:33 PM
>>>TM Well, we may go a bit too far into my personal positions here than the board is comfortable with but I would simply ask you RBG.
>>>RbG. I know exactly your limitiations you speak off and will try not to help you go there

>>>TM Were you, at one time, the enemy of God?
>>>RGB Yes, with qualification.... Before I was born, He chose me to be His child, yet I was born a sinner and at emnity with Him until the Time He revealed to me His redeemptive plan

>>>TM Did His right hand find you out?
>>>RbG Not sure what you mean by find me out... If you mean saved me via Jesus Christ, then yes... Did I seek Him, no, not in the way He prescribed before I was born again. But having been regenerated to see Him for who He is, It's all His work in my humble repentive response


>>>TM Did he make you as a fiery oven in His anger.
>>>RbG I don't believe so in the same way He has for his enemies.... For in His purpose, he declared me righteous in Christ Jesus before time and my birth.... and that I am a love gift to Jesus. So If he was angry at me to through me into the fiery oven, yet had a change of heart to claim me after he planned me to throw me there, would be hard for me to see...

>>>TM Did the Lord's wrath swallow you up? Did His fire devour you?
>>>RbG I'd have to answer no, I have not been devoured, as much as I deserve to be devoured. Again, from before time, He has Plan A and it never changed or changes.... So yet as I was a sinner, His mercy towards all today preserves me to salvation, and others until judgement.

>>>TM If so, what was the result of this action of God upon you as His enemy?
>>>RbG I see this not in like terms, for He purposes His elect differently than His enemies. Psalm 21 is clear to see that there is a difference.

>>>TM If not, then what kept this passage from being fulfilled if God said that is what He would do?
>>>RbG A lot IMO, for scripture does talk about God's wrath in great detail along with His mercies.... As God has called a people for Himself, and that He rules as He pleases, I see His word full of compassion and warning along with Judgment and separation.... For Jesus came to be a light, yet no one would seek Him, so God separates and calls a people to his own and judges the others all for His glory...



>>>TM I'm in north Texas brother and its snowing and 36 degrees... so I'm jealous of my south Texas friends also :lol:
>>>RbG Oh, I didn't realize that far north.... so we are experiencing the joys of the snow shovel together today and tomorrow.

Toolman
Mar 7th 2008, 03:54 PM
>>>TM If so, what was the result of this action of God upon you as His enemy? [/COLOR]
>>>RbG I see this not in like terms, for He purposes His elect differently than His enemies. Psalm 21 is clear to see that there is a difference.

>>>TM If not, then what kept this passage from being fulfilled if God said that is what He would do?
>>>RbG A lot IMO, for scripture does talk about God's wrath in great detail along with His mercies.... As God has called a people for Himself, and that He rules as He pleases, I see His word full of compassion and warning along with Judgment and separation.... For Jesus came to be a light, yet no one would seek Him, so God separates and calls a people to his own and judges the others all for His glory...

What I see is that you, an enemy of God, were granted mercy.

Now either Psalm 21:8-10 happened to you (your "old man") and the result was a "new man" in Christ or Psalm 21:8-10 did not happen to you, God's enemy.

Either way I see the mercy of God being demonstrated to His enemy (you) by His sovereign grace.

Now, where we, of course, will differ is that you will see a limit of that mercy to a select group and I see that mercy not limited but given to all.

But nonetheless, scripture is replete with evidence after evidence of God loving and giving mercy to His enemies, those who curse and hate Him. You are living proof of that very fact (as am I) :)


>>>TM I'm in north Texas brother and its snowing and 36 degrees... so I'm jealous of my south Texas friends also :lol:[/COLOR]
>>>RbG Oh, I didn't realize that far north.... so we are experiencing the joys of the snow shovel together today and tomorrow.

Yeah... DFW area... but, trust me, when I say snow it is barely enough to cover the windshield and not cold enough to actually stick... I don't even own a snow shovel LOL!

RogerW
Mar 7th 2008, 04:50 PM
No Roger, I would not agree that the "all men" in vs. 1 is limited to kings and those in authority.

1 Tim2:1-7 - Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Timothy was simply being encouraged to pray for all men (every single individual) and encouraged to pray for kings and those in authority.

A simple man's prayer may be "Lord I pray that all men's eyes would be opened to your truth and embrace you as Saviour. I pray for our leaders that they follow your ways that we may live a quiet and peaceable life."

Not that complex :)

And, of course, verse 6 gives us another contextual point in referencing that Christ gave Himself a ransom for "all" to be testified in due time.
So, I definitely see the "all men" being exactly what it plainly states... all men.

Greetings Toolman,

My humble apologies. I ask you a question then ignore your response. Gettin older and more senile I reckon.

I did not mean the admonition to pray be limited to kings and those in authority. We get a sense from the context of this particular passage that prayer in the church was neglected for kings and those in authority. This points to Roman (Caesar) rule which was very unpopular in the first century church. I think of those Roman rulers who persecuted the church, at times without mercy. I'm reminded of Jonah, who did not want God to show mercy and compassion toward the Ninevites, who Jonah consider to be the enemies of God.

I can only imagine when these first century Christians were taught to pray for "all" people, especially those in authority, how difficult it would have been for them to pray for those they considered to bring great harm, and even death to the Lord's body. So, I can see why it was necessary for Paul to remind them that we must pray for "all men", even those they consider enemies to the cross of Christ. Since God raises up the powers that be, those, like Jonah, who fight against this authority from God, fight against God.

Ro 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ro 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

After reminding the church of the need to pray for kings and all who are in authority, Paul tells us that we pray for them because "this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior". Why is this good and accepatble in the sight of God? Because "all men", even kings and those in authority, those considered the enemies of Christ and His Church can come to the knowledge of truth and be saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The One Mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for "all". Not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles, i.e. those Roman kings and rulers. This is why Paul was ordained a preacher, and an apostle, a teacher of the Gentiles. Because it is God's will that even Gentile's, who appear to be enemies of the cross of Christ be saved. So, "all men"...including Roman Gentile kings and rulers will be saved. Salvation is not limited to some, but is given to "all" who will be saved, through the One Mediator, Christ Jesus our Lord. Paul reminds us that we need to pray for "all men", and especially for kings, and those in authority, because God has raised up those in authority, and it is His will that salvation come to even these Gentiles.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 7th 2008, 06:45 PM
What I see is that you, an enemy of God, were granted mercy.

Now either Psalm 21:8-10 happened to you (your "old man") and the result was a "new man" in Christ or Psalm 21:8-10 did not happen to you, God's enemy.

Either way I see the mercy of God being demonstrated to His enemy (you) by His sovereign grace.

Now, where we, of course, will differ is that you will see a limit of that mercy to a select group and I see that mercy not limited but given to all.

But nonetheless, scripture is replete with evidence after evidence of God loving and giving mercy to His enemies, those who curse and hate Him. You are living proof of that very fact (as am I) :)



Yeah... DFW area... but, trust me, when I say snow it is barely enough to cover the windshield and not cold enough to actually stick... I don't even own a snow shovel LOL!

So asking the next logical question, would you say that Abram, and David, and Jeremiah, and other hero’s of the OT Bible, were they also enemies of God at one time?

I think that the bible makes a distinction between sinners and enemies, whereas all are sinners, yet all are not enemies as enemies are defined by the word… so I'd say that they were sinners saved by God's grace, yet they were not enemies as enemies are defined within scripture.


Then to David and his writings with Psalm 21:8-21, doesn’t this deal with David’s rejoicing with his current victories that God has granted and then to the future victories that God will fulfill? Now I understand the context you are saying of new man and old man, but would David know this NT understanding when he was writing about being God’s hand in victories given him?

Now God is long suffering, and His desires are that no one reject Him, but we both know that many will…. And not wanting to drag you into turf you are not allowed to defend here… so I will stop with a wink, but there are those that will die denouncing God as God, will take the mark of Satan, and will be judged as an Enemy of God as Psalm 21: 8-10 states.

And I caught a glimpse of your snow on the Weather Channel a few minutes ago, so I suppose that you don’t have a road crew that salts the old road during these once-a-season events? Ahh no pot-holes what a dream...


And I own 5 snow shovels, a snow thrower and 3 brooms... ahhh that pesky groundhog! :lol:

Toolman
Mar 7th 2008, 07:41 PM
So asking the next logical question, would you say that Abram, and David, and Jeremiah, and other hero’s of the OT Bible, were they also enemies of God at one time?

Yes.


I think that the bible makes a distinction between sinners and enemies, whereas all are sinners, yet all are not enemies as enemies are defined by the word… so I'd say that they were sinners saved by God's grace, yet they were not enemies as enemies are defined within scripture.

I would not see that distinction.

Romans 5:10 - For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Colossians 1:21 - And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled


Either we were fully "in Adam" or we were not when we were in our dead state. If we were then we were fully in the camp of God's enemies (as the scripture bears witness) and mercy has a full and true meaning. Enemies need mercy.


Then to David and his writings with Psalm 21:8-21, doesn’t this deal with David’s rejoicing with his current victories that God has granted and then to the future victories that God will fulfill? Now I understand the context you are saying of new man and old man, but would David know this NT understanding when he was writing about being God’s hand in victories given him?

I personally don't place too much emphasis on whether a particular writer had full and complete NT understanding when he happened to pen something. His understanding would be secondary to God's intent of inspiring such a one to pen what they did.



Now God is long suffering, and His desires are that no one reject Him, but we both know that many will…. And not wanting to drag you into turf you are not allowed to defend here… so I will stop with a wink, but there are those that will die denouncing God as God, will take the mark of Satan, and will be judged as an Enemy of God as Psalm 21: 8-10 states.

I understand your position there and, as you know, we differ there. Not much I can do about that :)

I see Christ instructing us to love our enemies, because that is exactly what God does. I see God giving mercy to His enemies and redeeming them. That is the truth I see in scripture. It is the very enemies of God who are in need of mercy and none else.


And I caught a glimpse of your snow on the Weather Channel a few minutes ago, so I suppose that you don’t have a road crew that salts the old road during these once-a-season events? Ahh no pot-holes what a dream...

We get a little bit of salt on the bridges but not much else.

Unless we have the dreaded ice storm, which is what we get almost all the time opposed to snow. Snow here is a very rare treat indeed but ice storms usually occur about every 2-3 years. Very nasty.


And I own 5 snow shovels, a snow thrower and 3 brooms... ahhh that pesky groundhog! :lol:

Sounds like alot of work :lol:

I have a swimming pool that we use about 6 months out of the year :P

Sorry.. couldn't help but have a jab at my northern friend :D (of course its over 100 degrees many of those days with high humidity so who am I jabbing at?)

thethinker
Mar 7th 2008, 10:26 PM
It isn't limited to the wicked of a certain race of people.


Brother Naphal,
What is your contextual basis from Ezekiel 33 for applying the statements therein beyond the non-covenantal wicked?

thethinker
Mar 7th 2008, 10:32 PM
Make no mistake. I have never claimed there will not be a judgement. We will all stand before Christ's judgement seat.

Nevertheless, scripture teaches that God is merciful to His enemies. Not only is He merciful... He loves those who curse Him and hate Him.

That is why He is God and we are not, though we often try to make Him in our image.

But Paul said that "He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Paul quoted GOD HIMSELF. Romans 9:15:

"For He [God] said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy...."

John146
Mar 7th 2008, 11:13 PM
The term "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4 refers to all classes of men. The term "all" must always be qualified by its context.

I had a discussion with a man about substance abuse. He told me that he has found that "all men" use drugs. Then he said that doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians, business men, black, white and the rich and poor use drugs.

My point: His term "all men" did NOT mean that all souls that live use drugs. He simply meant that the problem of drug abuse crosses over "all" socio-economic classes and "all" recial distinctions.

So we must also treat the word of God. The context defines "all". God speaks to us the way we speak. He speaks like us. And His salvation crosses over to all men, whether Jew and Gentile, man and woman, slave and free and rich and poor.

But He offers nothing at all to the unbelieving part of men.

How do you reconcile what you're saying with the following passage:

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. - Acts 17:30-31

Notice that "all men every where" are commanded to repent. In case you think that is not saying literally all people in the world notice the next verse which says that God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world by His Son. Obviously, the world means every person in the world because we know all people will stand before Him on the day of judgment. So, since every person in the world is commanded to repent why do you say that not all can repent? Does it make sense to command people to do something they can't do?

John146
Mar 7th 2008, 11:20 PM
But Paul said that "He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Paul quoted GOD HIMSELF. Romans 9:15:

"For He [God] said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy...."

And guess what? He chooses to have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32). This does not mean He saves all. He has mercy on all by offering them the free gift of eternal life. That gift is offered to "him that is athirst" and "whosoever will" (Rev 22:17). Therefore, it is a gift that can be either rejected or accepted. Nowhere does Scripture say that God said anything like "I will save whom I will save and condemn who I will condemn and I will not reveal the reasons or criteria by which I do this except to say that man has no say in the matter and it has nothing to do with the beliefs or behavior of mankind".

thethinker
Mar 8th 2008, 12:20 AM
How do you reconcile what you're saying with the following passage:

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. - Acts 17:30-31

Notice that "all men every where" are commanded to repent. In case you think that is not saying literally all people in the world notice the next verse which says that God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world by His Son. Obviously, the world means every person in the world because we know all people will stand before Him on the day of judgment. So, since every person in the world is commanded to repent why do you say that not all can repent? Does it make sense to command people to do something they can't do?

Brother John 14:6,
Did you notice that the text says also that God has given "all men" ASSURANCE that God raised Jesus from the dead?

"...He has assured all men that He raised Him from the dead".

Yet millions and billions of men through out the history of the church and until now deny the resurrection of Jesus. If you assert that "all men" indiscriminately are commanded to repent then you must also assert that "all men" indiscriminately have the assurance that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Or you may take the more sensible approach and submit to the fact that "all men" means "all races" of men.

You said that it makes no sense to command people to do something they can't do. But I have not asserted that this is the case.

Your friend,
thethinker

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 01:13 AM
Throughtout the whole of scripture God is shown to be merciful. Here is one simple example:


Romans 5:8-10 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Colossians 1:21 - And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled


Do you see that Naphal. God reconciled His enemies to Himself by putting His Son to death on the cross. Welcome to Christianity 101.
God is merciful, not merciless, to His enemies.

You confuse a temporary, technical enemies with someone who is a definite, opposser of God. God is not merciful to his true enemies. He deals with them harshly and without any mercy.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 8th 2008, 01:56 AM
Yes.



I would not see that distinction.

Romans 5:10 - For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Colossians 1:21 - And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled


Either we were fully "in Adam" or we were not when we were in our dead state. If we were then we were fully in the camp of God's enemies (as the scripture bears witness) and mercy has a full and true meaning. Enemies need mercy.



I personally don't place too much emphasis on whether a particular writer had full and complete NT understanding when he happened to pen something. His understanding would be secondary to God's intent of inspiring such a one to pen what they did.




I understand your position there and, as you know, we differ there. Not much I can do about that :)

I see Christ instructing us to love our enemies, because that is exactly what God does. I see God giving mercy to His enemies and redeeming them. That is the truth I see in scripture. It is the very enemies of God who are in need of mercy and none else.



We get a little bit of salt on the bridges but not much else.

Unless we have the dreaded ice storm, which is what we get almost all the time opposed to snow. Snow here is a very rare treat indeed but ice storms usually occur about every 2-3 years. Very nasty.



Sounds like alot of work :lol:

I have a swimming pool that we use about 6 months out of the year :P

Sorry.. couldn't help but have a jab at my northern friend :D (of course its over 100 degrees many of those days with high humidity so who am I jabbing at?)


Hi TM,

Yea, for the standpoint of words, enemies is sure enough there and it would be hard to argue that it’s not there… However… there is a need to look deeper to see what this is all about


Couple quick points.


One verse back,

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Now here is a bit more info as to enemies with context… In looking to God’s wrath, there will be a time future that He will poor out His wrath on those who reject Him, but we, those who are saved by Christ were chosen to escape His wrath to come. So yep, we once by association were taken by reconciliation, yet God’s wrath will still fall on those who reject Him.

A better way to say this is found in:

Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;


The other point is from the understanding of the word enemies which is echthros,

Which has been interpreted as hostile along with enemies

As in

Colossians 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

So… it is possible that enemies used in Romans 5:10 could be different reference point as it is used in Psalms


Ah a swimming pool.... Nice... :)

Toolman
Mar 8th 2008, 02:45 AM
But Paul said that "He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Paul quoted GOD HIMSELF. Romans 9:15:

"For He [God] said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy...."

Yes he did... let's follow Paul's thoughts all the way to his conclusion in Romans 11:

Romans 11:32 - For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


This good news, of course, makes Paul burst forth in his doxology:

Romans 11:33-36 - Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
“ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
“ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

So, yes God can have mercy on whomever He wants to and as Paul clearly concludes... he has mercy on all men.

Toolman
Mar 8th 2008, 02:49 AM
You confuse a temporary, technical enemies with someone who is a definite, opposser of God. God is not merciful to his true enemies. He deals with them harshly and without any mercy.

There is no confusion on my part. The scripture does not speak of some mythical "temporary, technical enemy" of God. When scripture states we were enemies of God that is exactly what it means and there is no evidence that God meant some type of "temporary, technical thing".

Saying God is not merciful to his "true" (whatever that means) enemies contradicts what Christ taught and what Paul described as God's actions towards His enemies.

Sorry if that upsets your doctrine but it is what scripture states nonetheless.

There is no scriptural evidence for some sort of "temporary, technical enemy". It simply is not there.

Naphal
Mar 8th 2008, 06:28 AM
There is no confusion on my part. The scripture does not speak of some mythical "temporary, technical enemy" of God.

You have already presented who they are. It's all those that would eventually come to love him, but were "enemies" before. There are other enemies that remain enemies and God has no mercy planned for them.



Saying God is not merciful to his "true" (whatever that means) enemies contradicts what Christ taught and what Paul described as God's actions towards His enemies.

Scripture has already been posted that proves what happened to these "true enemies". God destroys them in hell.

thethinker
Mar 8th 2008, 09:50 AM
Yes he did... let's follow Paul's thoughts all the way to his conclusion in Romans 11:

Romans 11:32 - For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


This good news, of course, makes Paul burst forth in his doxology:

Romans 11:33-36 - Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
“ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
“ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

So, yes God can have mercy on whomever He wants to and as Paul clearly concludes... he has mercy on all men.

Brother Toolman,
The context indicates that the object of mercy is Israel. So it is saying that God will have mercy to all of Israel. Go back to chapter 9:6:

"For they are not all Israel which are of Israel". Therefore, Paul means that God will have mercy upon all the true Israel.

I respectfully want to point out to you that you have the tendency to wrench verses out of their context. ;)

Toolman
Mar 8th 2008, 10:19 PM
You have already presented who they are. It's all those that would eventually come to love him, but were "enemies" before. There are other enemies that remain enemies and God has no mercy planned for them.

Not according to scripture. God love's His enemies (as Christ taught us) and Paul showed that God has consigned all men under disobedience so that He may have mercy ON ALL OF THEM.

God is merciful towards His enemies. That's what we call "good news: :)


Scripture has already been posted that proves what happened to these "true enemies". God destroys them in hell.

There is no distinction in scripture between some so-called "true enemies" and "false enemies". Its simply a term created to support your position.

Lamentations 3:31-33 - For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he may punish cruelly, yet he will have compassion in the fullness of his love; he does not willingly afflict or punish any mortal man.

2 Samuel 14:14 - For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

Toolman
Mar 8th 2008, 10:30 PM
Brother Toolman,
The context indicates that the object of mercy is Israel. So it is saying that God will have mercy to all of Israel. Go back to chapter 9:6:

"For they are not all Israel which are of Israel". Therefore, Paul means that God will have mercy upon all the true Israel.

That is, IMO, an incorrect exegesis of Romans 11 my friend. Here is an exegesis that I posted a while back that reveals that mercy is for all, not just Israel or the Elect:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Follow Paul's thoughts all the way from chapter 9 thru chapter 11. To not do so will leave you with an incomplete picture of what Paul is saying:

Paul starts by showing there is an elect:

Romans 11:4-5 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

A remnant of Israel according to election.

He then states:

Romans 11:7 - What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

He then makes a clear distinction and contrast between 2 seperate groups. "the elect" and "the rest".

The elect have obtained righteousness/salvation and the rest are blinded.

2 clear distinct groups.

Romans 11:11 - I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Paul now states concerning "the rest" that they have not stumbled that they should fall, but their stumbling is for a divine purpose (to provoke jealousy in themselves and bring salvation to the gentiles).

Romans 11:25-26 - For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

Paul, then says that he does not want us to be ignorant of the mystery. Blindness has happened in part to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come and then all Israel will be saved.
This is clearly speaking of physical Israel, which has been Paul's topic since Romans 9 and through 10 and 11.

Romans 11:28 - Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

The they in the above passage are "the rest", those who have been blinded in Israel and who are not "the elect".

Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God is soveriegn, we both agree here so don't think there is much to discuss regarding that passage.

Romans 11:30 - For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,

The their, once again, is "the rest", the blinded ones of Israel who are seperate from "the elect".
We gentiles obtained mercy through their disobedience/unbelief.

Romans 11:31 - even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

Once again, "the rest", those who are currently blinded and not a part of "the elect" will be shown mercy because of the mercy shown gentiles, who were also shown mercy in our disobedience/unbelief.

Romans 11:32 - For God has committed all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

The mystery, of which we are not to be ignorant of. God has committed all to disobedience/unbelief that He might have mercy on all.

This mystery/revelation makes Paul break into his doxology:

Romans 11:33-36 - Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
“ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
“ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

So, obviously the mercy of God extends beyond the Elect, to include the Rest. Praise His name and all glory to Him who is able to save.
The mercy of God is for all the gentiles who are grafted into all of Israel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I respectfully want to point out to you that you have the tendency to wrench verses out of their context. ;)

I respectfully accept your accusation and will leave the judgement of whether it is correct or not to the Father. If He causes me to stand then glory to Him. If not... glory to Him :)

Soli Deo Gloria!

thethinker
Mar 8th 2008, 11:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brother Toolman said: "Follow Paul's thoughts all the way from chapter 9 thru chapter 11. To not do so will leave you with an incomplete picture of what Paul is saying:"

Brother Toolman,
You said to "follow Paul's thoughts all the way back to chapter 9". Yet you cite not one verse from chapter 9. Then you said that you don't want to leave me without a "complete picture". yet that's exactly what you did. You presented an incomplete picture in that you did not deal with chaps 9-10.

So my observation that you take verses out of context should be considered.

Paul said that "Not all Israel is of Israel. Then he said that "all Israel shall be saved". Ergo, "ALL Israel does not include every Isaelite. Only true Israel shall be saved. They are the sum total of "all" Israel.

Toolman
Mar 8th 2008, 11:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brother Toolman said: "Follow Paul's thoughts all the way from chapter 9 thru chapter 11. To not do so will leave you with an incomplete picture of what Paul is saying:"

Brother Toolman,
You said to "follow Paul's thoughts all the way back to chapter 9". Yet you cite not one verse from chapter 9. Then you said that you don't want to leave me without a "complete picture". yet that's exactly what you did. You presented an incomplete picture in that you did not deal with chaps 9-10.

That particular exegesis was done in a thread called Vessels of Wrath (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=880364#post880364). Romans 9 and 10 were spoken about quite a bit in that thread so what I was presenting here was Paul's concluding thoughts about Israel, the Elect, the Rest and the gentiles. Its all there :)


So my observation that you take verses out of context should be considered.

Paul said that "Not all Israel is of Israel. Then he said that "all Israel shall be saved". Ergo, "ALL Israel does not include every Isaelite. Only true Israel shall be saved. They are the sum total of "all" Israel.

All Israel does include all Israelites as they are grafted back in as is pointed out in Romans 11.

For now the elect remnant believe and the "rest" are blinded. But then the blinded "rest" will be saved because they have not stumbled that they should fall, as Paul clearly points out.

When all are grafted into Israel then all Israel shall be saved. Which is all men who are confined under disobedience, so that God may have mercy on all men, jew and gentile alike.

Naphal
Mar 9th 2008, 06:48 AM
Not according to scripture. God love's His enemies (as Christ taught us) and Paul showed that God has consigned all men under disobedience so that He may have mercy ON ALL OF THEM.

God is merciful towards His enemies. That's what we call "good news: :)

God is only merciful to the "enemies" that came to love Him who then ceased to be enemies. God has no mercy upon the enemies that do not love him and continue to be His enemies. That is good and just news.

thethinker
Mar 9th 2008, 11:09 AM
All Israel does include all Israelites as they are grafted back in as is pointed out in Romans 11.

For now the elect remnant believe and the "rest" are blinded. But then the blinded "rest" will be saved because they have not stumbled that they should fall, as Paul clearly points out.

When all are grafted into Israel then all Israel shall be saved. Which is all men who are confined under disobedience, so that God may have mercy on all men, jew and gentile alike.

Again you have failed to deal with chapter 9. God said "In Isaac shall they seed be called". And, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated".

These two statements are an explanation of the statement "Not all are Israel which are of Israel". It means that Isaac's brother Ishmael was NOT included in the covenant of salvation. It means that Jacob's brother Esau was NOT included in the covenant. Ergo: All those whom they represented are NOT included in the covenant of salvation.

Your assertion that the blinded will be grafted back in has no basis at all.
First, it makes no sense to say that "natural" branches are grafted in. It's talking about the blinding of Israelites. Only unnatural branches are "grafted" in (i.e., Gentiles). Second, You say those blinded will be grafted back in because you think "all" means all men indiscrininately. But this cannot be true because Paul said that God prepares some vessels for glory and the others for wrath (9:19-21).

The statement that "Not all Israel is of Israel" is plain and unequivocal. It means that "all Israel" is the elect. The term "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" makes no sense if all men indiscrininately are In Isaac. This is solified by the fact that Galatians 4 says that his brother Ishmael shall NOT BE HEIR of salvation with Isaac:

"What does the Scripture say? 'Cast out the bondwoman and her son [Ishmael], for the son of the bondwoman shall NOT be heir with the son [Isaac] of the freewoman'. So then brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman but of the free" (Galatians 4:30-31).

Note that Paul said that the "Scripture" says that Ishmael is not an heir with Isaac. But Toolman says differently.

Toolman
Mar 9th 2008, 05:42 PM
God is only merciful to the "enemies" that came to love Him who then ceased to be enemies. God has no mercy upon the enemies that do not love him and continue to be His enemies. That is good and just news.

God's mercy proceeds the enemies love according to scripture:

Romans 5:8-10 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!


God's mercy comes before any response on the part of the sinner.

Toolman
Mar 9th 2008, 06:09 PM
Again you have failed to deal with chapter 9. God said "In Isaac shall they seed be called". And, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated".

These two statements are an explanation of the statement "Not all are Israel which are of Israel". It means that Isaac's brother Ishmael was NOT included in the covenant of salvation. It means that Jacob's brother Esau was NOT included in the covenant. Ergo: All those whom they represented are NOT included in the covenant of salvation.

It means that the "rest" would follow the Elect, not that the "rest" were not included at all. That is why one cannot stop at Romans 9 but must continue Paul's thoughts all the way thru to Romans 11.

Romans 11:32 - For God has confined all men under disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.

Without following Paul's argument all the way thru one does not have a full understanding of Paul's statements in Romans 9.

The "rest" (the blinded ones of Israel who have rejected Christ) are included in God's redemptive plan.

Hence Paul's doxology to the glory of God.


Your assertion that the blinded will be grafted back in has no basis at all.
First, it makes no sense to say that "natural" branches are grafted in. It's talking about the blinding of Israelites. Only unnatural branches are "grafted" in (i.e., Gentiles).

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


Paul clearly states that the natural branches (blinded Israelites) can be grafted back into the vine. God is able to graft them back in.

So, it makes total sense and is biblical :)


Second, You say those blinded will be grafted back in because you think "all" means all men indiscrininately. But this cannot be true because Paul said that God prepares some vessels for glory and the others for wrath (9:19-21).

No, I say the blinded can be grafted back in because that is expressly what Paul states:

Romans 11:
11Again I ask: Did they (the blinded "rest") stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their (the blinded "rest") transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel (To make ISRAEL jealous.. notice Paul's distinction between saved gentiles and Israel) envious.

12But if their (the blinded "rest") transgression means riches for the world, and their (the blinded "rest") loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their (the blinded "rest")fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles(Notice Paul's distinction between saved gentiles and Israel) . Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people (Notice Paul's distinction between gentiles and Israel, his own people. National Israel) to envy and save some of them(the blinded "rest") . 15For if their (the blinded "rest") rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their (the blinded "rest") acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches(the blinded "rest") have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches(the blinded "rest") . If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches(the blinded "rest") were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they (the blinded "rest") were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches(the blinded "rest") , he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those (the blinded "rest") who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they (the blinded "rest") do not persist in unbelief, they (the blinded "rest") will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them (the blinded "rest") in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these(the blinded "rest") , the natural branches(the blinded "rest") , be grafted into their own olive tree!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel (the blinded "rest"). National Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel (the blinded "rest") of National Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them (the blinded "rest"), national Israel)
when I take away their (the blinded "rest") sins."

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they(the blinded "rest") are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they(the blinded "rest") are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their(the blinded "rest") disobedience, 31so they(the blinded "rest") too have now become disobedient in order that they (the blinded "rest")too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.[/SIZE]

32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.



The statement that "Not all Israel is of Israel" is plain and unequivocal. It means that "all Israel" is the elect. The term "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" makes no sense if all men indiscrininately are In Isaac. This is solified by the fact that Galatians 4 says that his brother Ishmael shall NOT BE HEIR of salvation with Isaac:

They are not "indiscriminately" in Isaac, they are grafted in as any man is, by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Paul simply means that the blinded ones are currently not grafted into the vine (as he clearly states in Romans 11). But the fact remains that the blinded "rest" will be grafted in and all Israel will be saved.


"What does the Scripture say? 'Cast out the bondwoman and her son [Ishmael], for the son of the bondwoman [B]shall NOT be heir with the son [Isaac] of the freewoman'. So then brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman but of the free" (Galatians 4:30-31).

Note that Paul said that the "Scripture" says that Ishmael is not an heir with Isaac. But Toolman says differently.

None of us are heirs until grafted in by faith in Christ alone. Ishmael (the flesh) must perish and Isaac (the spirit) must live and be blessed.

Each of us has an Ishmael, an "old man", that will not inherit the new covenant of God.

Doesn't mean that God does not redeem that which He has sovereignly declared to redeem.

Toolman
Mar 9th 2008, 06:17 PM
I have been asked by the mods to "chill out" on my posts that lean strongly towards my position of universal reconciliation.

I do not want to give the mods anymore work than they have to do now. I respect all the hard work they already have to do and don't want to be a burden there so I will let my posts stand and my exegesis of Romans 11 stand as it is.

Thanks for everyone's input and I believe the OP initial viewpoint has been substantiated and magnified.

RogerW
Mar 9th 2008, 08:33 PM
I have been asked by the mods to "chill out" on my posts that lean strongly towards my position of universal reconciliation.

I do not want to give the mods anymore work than they have to do now. I respect all the hard work they already have to do and don't want to be a burden there so I will let my posts stand and my exegesis of Romans 11 stand as it is.

Thanks for everyone's input and I believe the OP initial viewpoint has been substantiated and magnified.

Greetings Toolman,

I respect your desire not to grieve the mods, so I'm posting this simply to give you something to think on. I understand you are very convicted by what you believe, and you believe the Bible confirms your views. There is a way to look at this passage in Ro 11 that shows "all" means both Jews and Gentiles.

15For if their (the blinded "rest") rejection is the reconciliation of the world

Their (the nation) rejection is reconciliation of the world. Not that the world will be reconciled, but even Gentiles, through Christ can be reconciled. Because as a result of their rejection salvation goes unto all the world. Even Gentiles can be saved.

17If some of the branches(the blinded "rest") have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

Some of the nation was broken off so Gentiles could be grafted in. Gentiles too share with the Jews in the same Root.

19You will say then, "Branches(the blinded "rest") were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

The Gentiles are grafted into the same tree, the true Israel of God.

24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree,

Gentiles, under the old dispensation were not part of the good olive tree, but now under the new they are grafted into the same tree; the Israel of God.

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel (the blinded "rest"). National Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel (the blinded "rest") of National Israel will be saved, as it is written:

Paul expresses his desire that we understand that Israel experienced hardening until all Gentiles who will be saved come into the same tree. What tree are they being grafted into? Is it National Israel or the true Israel, the Israel of God? I think you would agree that under the New Covenant both Jews and Gentiles can now come into the true Israel, the Israel of God. Salvation is no longer limited to only the Jews. Both Jews and Gentiles can be saved through Christ, and this is "all Israel" that will be saved. All Israel, both Jews and Gentiles in the same tree.

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they(the blinded "rest") are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they(the blinded "rest") are loved on account of the patriarchs,

The Jews were enemies of the gospel because they were arrogantly puffed up, believing that salvation was only for the Jews. As for election they are beloved because the covenant promise comes through the Seed of Abraham.

30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their(the blinded "rest") disobedience, 31so they(the blinded "rest") too have now become disobedient in order that they (the blinded "rest")too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.[/size]

They, like unsaved Gentiles, though disobedient can now receive mercy through the message of the gospel because of the mercy God has extended to Gentiles.


32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Now in Christ God may have mercy on all, both Jew and Gentile through Christ. Not that God will extend His mercy to every man, but both Jews and Gentiles (all) may be saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 9th 2008, 11:21 PM
Hi TM,

Yea, for the standpoint of words, enemies is sure enough there and it would be hard to argue that it’s not there… However… there is a need to look deeper to see what this is all about


Couple quick points.


One verse back,

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Now here is a bit more info as to enemies with context… In looking to God’s wrath, there will be a time future that He will poor out His wrath on those who reject Him, but we, those who are saved by Christ were chosen to escape His wrath to come. So yep, we once by association were taken by reconciliation, yet God’s wrath will still fall on those who reject Him.

A better way to say this is found in:

Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;


The other point is from the understanding of the word enemies which is echthros,

Which has been interpreted as hostile along with enemies

As in

Colossians 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

So… it is possible that enemies used in Romans 5:10 could be different reference point as it is used in Psalms


Ah a swimming pool.... Nice... :)

Hi TM,

I saw your post that you've been pinged by the mods and that you are pulling back from delving any deeper.... I understand and respect that desire.

Hopefully my next question will be within the confines for you to offer an answer. I think that it is....

"Can there be degrees and/or variances to being friends?"

For are there different responses that one can have with one person and different with another?

Signed,
Your Northern Friend :hug:

thethinker
Mar 10th 2008, 05:57 PM
Toolman said: "Paul clearly states that the natural branches (blinded Israelites) can be grafted back into the vine. God is able to graft them back in".

Toolman,
Paul no where says that the natural branches will be grafted back in. This is your presupposition. Furthermore, you keep ignoring chapter 9. Paul said that God has made some vessels for glory and some for destruction. If God is going to "graft" all the blinded, natural branches back in then there would be no vessels that would be destroyed! Yet Paul says that some were made for destruction. Your views make no sense.

I am beginning to think that you are afraid of chapter 9. You just won't deal with it.

Your friend,
Think

Son_kissed
Mar 10th 2008, 06:29 PM
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel (the blinded "rest"). National Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel (the blinded "rest") of National Israel will be saved, as it is written:

Paul expresses his desire that we understand that Israel experienced hardening until all Gentiles who will be saved come into the same tree. What tree are they being grafted into? Is it National Israel or the true Israel, the Israel of God? I think you would agree that under the New Covenant both Jews and Gentiles can now come into the true Israel, the Israel of God. Salvation is no longer limited to only the Jews. Both Jews and Gentiles can be saved through Christ, and this is "all Israel" that will be saved. All Israel, both Jews and Gentiles in the same tree.

But look at it in context of the next few verses:


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:


Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you were saying, but I think you were saying that "all Israel" in verse 26 is Jew and Gentile believers. But, reading through to verse 30 its evident that the Israel Paul is speaking of is only the Jewish believers (those who are blinded at the time of writing, but who will believe in the future), and that we have obtained mercy through their unbelief.




32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


Not that God will extend His mercy to every man, but both Jews and Gentiles (all) may be saved.



So hard for me to read that. How would we even share the Gospel believing that God's mercy was not meant to be extended to every man, and that its, at least in part, their choice to accept it? What do we say? "I have some Good News for you.... maybe...it might not really be so good for you...it just depends on whether God elected you or not..." That's always what I'd be thinking in the back of my mind.

John146
Mar 10th 2008, 07:05 PM
Brother John 14:6,
Did you notice that the text says also that God has given "all men" ASSURANCE that God raised Jesus from the dead?

"...He has assured all men that He raised Him from the dead".

Yet millions and billions of men through out the history of the church and until now deny the resurrection of Jesus. If you assert that "all men" indiscriminately are commanded to repent then you must also assert that "all men" indiscriminately have the assurance that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Or you may take the more sensible approach and submit to the fact that "all men" means "all races" of men.

You said that it makes no sense to command people to do something they can't do. But I have not asserted that this is the case.

Your friend,
thethinker

You're missing what the passage is saying. It only means that all people in the world can be assured that they will be judged through the man, Jesus Christ. Everyone will be judged by their relationship (or lack thereof) with Christ and whether they believe He rose again from the dead or not. Whether they know it now or not all people will stand before Him on the day of judgment. You say it means all races of men and that is supposed to be more sensible? You miss the context of the verse which speaks of all people everywhere needing to repent or else they will face God's wrath on the day of judgment.

Son_kissed
Mar 10th 2008, 07:10 PM
Toolman said: "Paul clearly states that the natural branches (blinded Israelites) can be grafted back into the vine. God is able to graft them back in".

Toolman,
Paul no where says that the natural branches will be grafted back in. This is your presupposition. Furthermore, you keep ignoring chapter 9. Paul said that God has made some vessels for glory and some for destruction. If God is going to "graft" all the blinded, natural branches back in then there would be no vessels that would be destroyed! Yet Paul says that some were made for destruction. Your views make no sense.




21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

What is he saying if not that God will, and is able, to graft the natural branches in again, too?

As far as the vessels fitted for destruction:

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now, I don't know if I agree with all that Toolman believes. I've only read whats in this thread. But do we know how long the longsuffering (patience) of God is? Do we even know that, in his analogy of the vessels, that the "what if" is meant to be taken as a "And so God made vessels for destruction..."

In chapter 10 he says:

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

He has stretched forth His hands. I know the word destruction was used in verse 22, but would he stretch forth His hands to people He knew He would destroy? Are we possibly misundertanding?

And then again in chapter 11 the possibility of them being grafted back in.

I haven't found anything that doesnt make sense yet.

Souled Out
Mar 10th 2008, 07:37 PM
Toolman said: "Paul clearly states that the natural branches (blinded Israelites) can be grafted back into the vine. God is able to graft them back in".

Toolman,
Paul no where says that the natural branches will be grafted back in. This is your presupposition.

Which is actually correct based on scripture.


Furthermore, you keep ignoring chapter 9. Paul said that God has made some vessels for glory and some for destruction. If God is going to "graft" all the blinded, natural branches back in then there would be no vessels that would be destroyed! Yet Paul says that some were made for destruction.Your view of who or what these vessels are is formed strictly from your soteriology. I've seen many views of who/what these vessels are - some with scriptural merit and some with none.

thethinker
Mar 10th 2008, 07:51 PM
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

What is he saying if not that God will, and is able, to graft the natural branches in again, too....

Son Kissed, You got me bro! I concede your point.

thethinker
Mar 10th 2008, 08:07 PM
You're missing what the passage is saying. It only means that all people in the world can be assured that they will be judged through the man, Jesus Christ. Everyone will be judged by their relationship (or lack thereof) with Christ and whether they believe He rose again from the dead or not. Whether they know it now or not all people will stand before Him on the day of judgment. You say it means all races of men and that is supposed to be more sensible? You miss the context of the verse which speaks of all people everywhere needing to repent or else they will face God's wrath on the day of judgment.

John146,

You got me too. I concede that I missed the point in Acts 17. However, I still maintain that the term "all men" refers to all kinds of men and not all men indiscriminately. Even after Paul spoke this he said that the only testimony that some Gentiles possessed was in the revelation of nature (Romans chaps 1-2).

So God had NOT assured "all men" indiscriminately by the resurrection of Jesus that there would be a judgment. There were still some Gentiles who knew nothing of Jesus at all.

But they knew that there was a judgment by the revelation in nature.

John146
Mar 10th 2008, 08:11 PM
All Israel does include all Israelites as they are grafted back in as is pointed out in Romans 11.

That is incorrect. All of them CAN be grafted back in, but that is conditional upon them believing in Christ. But not all of them have, obviously. Not even close.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul told us who is included in "all Israel" or what I call the Israel of God in Romans 9:6-8 and he made it clear that it is not the descendants of Israel but instead those of Isaac's seed and the promise, which we know from Galatians 3 is Christ and all who belong to Christ, which does include descendants of Israel but only those who believe in Christ.



For now the elect remnant believe and the "rest" are blinded. But then the blinded "rest" will be saved because they have not stumbled that they should fall, as Paul clearly points out.

When all are grafted into Israel then all Israel shall be saved. Which is all men who are confined under disobedience, so that God may have mercy on all men, jew and gentile alike.

God already has mercy upon all men by not destroying them as soon as they sin. He is slow to anger and longsuffering, but He eventually does get angry. The fact that He has mercy upon men doesn't mean He saves them. It means He gives them many chances to repent and believe the gospel. He has mercy upon all so that "if they abide not still in unbelief" they will be grafted into the Israel of God, which includes all Jew and Gentile believers.

thethinker
Mar 13th 2008, 10:42 PM
That is incorrect. All of them CAN be grafted back in, but that is conditional upon them believing in Christ. But not all of them have, obviously. Not even close.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul told us who is included in "all Israel" or what I call the Israel of God in Romans 9:6-8 and he made it clear that it is not the descendants of Israel but instead those of Isaac's seed and the promise, which we know from Galatians 3 is Christ and all who belong to Christ, which does include descendants of Israel but only those who believe in Christ.



God already has mercy upon all men by not destroying them as soon as they sin. He is slow to anger and longsuffering, but He eventually does get angry. The fact that He has mercy upon men doesn't mean He saves them. It means He gives them many chances to repent and believe the gospel. He has mercy upon all so that "if they abide not still in unbelief" they will be grafted into the Israel of God, which includes all Jew and Gentile believers.

John 146,
I agree with all you said above except for your statement that God "already has mercy upon all men by not destroying them as soon as they sin". Though this would be a mercy of sorts the mercy Paul is talking about is saving mercy.

When Paul said that God would have mercy to "all" it is in reference to the salvation of ALL Israel, that is, all the TRUE ISRAEL. The rest of "Israel" is not really Israel at all to God.