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menJesus
Mar 7th 2008, 12:16 AM
I read this the other day, and I can`t even begin to figure it out at all.

What did Moses do to bring this on? Is anything in history about this?

Why did God start to kill Moses???

And what changed His mind?

Exodus 4:

24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

HisLeast
Mar 7th 2008, 12:45 AM
I've been scratching my head over that one too.

Athanasius
Mar 7th 2008, 12:47 AM
God didn't kill Moses because Moses' wife circumcised their child. Which is why God wanted to kill Moses in the first place (breaking the covenant).

menJesus
Mar 7th 2008, 12:48 AM
Its hard for me to wrap my mind around all that - God LOVED Moses!

And the reference is so obscure! Its as bad as me & my one-liners - hahaha. ;)

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 12:48 AM
Circumcision is a sign of the covenant. God had called Moses to deliver Israel. If we are going to serve in ministry, we better maintain our family and ourselves in covenant with God.

It was such an issue with God that he wanted Israel to be circumcised at Gilgal after the 40 years in the wilderness.

David pointed out that Goliath was not in covenant with the most High God by calling him an "uncircumcised Philistine".

It's all about covenant.

stillforgiven
Mar 7th 2008, 12:49 AM
I've always wondered what that was all about too, and figured it was something that the current people understood so no explanation was deemed needed. Like perhaps Moses should have known to circumcise his boys when they were born and didn't.

menJesus
Mar 7th 2008, 12:50 AM
God didn't kill Moses because Moses' wife circumcised their child. Which is why God wanted to kill Moses in the first place (breaking the covenant).

Can you enlarge upon that any? Thanks.

menJesus
Mar 7th 2008, 12:54 AM
Circumcision is a sign of the covenant. God had called Moses to deliver Israel. If we are going to serve in ministry, we better maintain our family and ourselves in covenant with God.

It was such an issue with God that he wanted Israel to be circumcised at Gilgal after the 40 years in the wilderness.

David pointed out that Goliath was not in covenant with the most High God by calling him an "uncircumcised Philistine".

It's all about covenant.

Alright, but is this the only thig that was ever said about it? Biblically?

Moses didn`t do it, and God brooded over it until He became wrathful and suddenly sought to kill him?

Brother Mark
Mar 7th 2008, 12:55 AM
Alright, but is this the only thig that was ever said about it? Biblically?

Moses didn`t do it, and God brooded over it until He became wrathful and suddenly sought to kill him?

God is a covenant keeping God. Covenant is very, very important. God didn't brood over it. He was just illustrating how important it is. God relented as soon as Zeporah did her thing. Had God really wanted to kill him, Moses would have died.

It's a serious thing when we step out in ministry but refuse to walk in covenant with God!

There are many scriptures about circumcision. It's all about covenant.

The first mention of it in scripture...

Gen 17:9-11

9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
NASB

RJ Mac
Mar 7th 2008, 01:09 AM
Yes I agree with Mark, circumcision was a sign of the covenant and God commanded the father of the household to make sure everyone was circumcised and Moses was being disobedient, whether he realized it or not. His wife I believe is a distant cousin from Keturah's side of the family. Gen.25:2;(Midian) Keturah knew to circumcise her sons and must have passed that along. Gen.17:9-14;

Jethro was a priest of God and knew to circumcise and I would deduce that from the action of his daughter, she knew what God was upset about and did the right thing in circumcising her son, just in time.

But the statement 'you are a bridegroom of blood to me' has always puzzled me. Ex.4:24-26;

Here's another puzzler Col.2:11,12, it seems our baptism is where we are circumcised by Christ, if circumcision is so important it almost cost Moses his life how much more our circumcision or our baptism is today?

RJ Mac

menJesus
Mar 7th 2008, 01:10 AM
Thanks, BrotherMark. So, everything in the Bible that says something akin to "throughout their generations" or similar, is something that is applicable to all of us today!

(Add: Moses had to have known that! was he being rebellious?)

Ooh! Start a thread on that! I have seen several references to such as that in the Bible.

Athanasius
Mar 7th 2008, 01:11 AM
Well menJesus, I think if I were to expand I would simply repeat what BrotherMark and others have said.

menJesus
Mar 7th 2008, 01:14 AM
Well menJesus, I think if I were to expand I would simply repeat what BrotherMark and others have said.

Alright then, thanks!

RoadWarrior
Mar 7th 2008, 01:18 AM
I've always thought it was because Moses' wife did not want her son circumcised, so it had not been done. But the wrath of God against Moses showed her she had no choice in the matter.

Moses is held responsible, not the wife, because the man is the one who carries the responsibility, even when the wife is the one doing the wrong thing. (Eve, Sarah, Zipporah, etc.)

But in this instance, when Zipporah saw the truth, she did what needed to be done, but hated every minute of it! She did not want her son to be circumcised.

The circumcision had to happen on the 8th day, so it is likely that this is when God showed up at the camp - when the little boy was 8 days old.

stillforgiven
Mar 7th 2008, 01:27 AM
I've always thought it was because Moses' wife did not want her son circumcised...

That's something I never thought about, but it makes sense.

HisLeast
Mar 9th 2008, 04:58 PM
Here's another puzzler Col.2:11,12, it seems our baptism is where we are circumcised by Christ, if circumcision is so important it almost cost Moses his life how much more our circumcision or our baptism is today?

The ultimate puzzler for me is: when can we finally be sure we've done enough to meet God's standard? If its not baptism its circumcision, and if its not circumcision its which day the sabbath falls on, or eating pork, or eschatology view, or if you've ever spoken in tongues.

Spend enough time looking into those things and the question gradually transforms from "what must we do to meet the standard" to "we're all pretty much damned, but for what reason?".

daughter
Mar 9th 2008, 05:07 PM
[quote=RJ Mac;1563673But the statement 'you are a bridegroom of blood to me' has always puzzled me. Ex.4:24-26;
[/quote]
It doesn't puzzle me! I'm a mother of a son, and when he was a baby his father's mother told me not to circumcise him. (She is gentile, her husband, my son's Grandad, is Jewish.) I could really sympathise with that instinct... who wants to cut their baby?

If I had been forced by circumstance to circumcise my son I would have wanted to call someone names about it.

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 05:10 PM
The ultimate puzzler for me is: when can we finally be sure we've done enough to meet God's standard? If its not baptism its circumcision, and if its not circumcision its which day the sabbath falls on, or eating pork, or eschatology view, or if you've ever spoken in tongues.

Spend enough time looking into those things and the question gradually transforms from "what must we do to meet the standard" to "we're all pretty much damned, but for what reason?".

It seems tricky, doesn't it, to try and figure it all out. I puzzled over your last question, early in my Christian walk. But I came at it a little bit differently, and found the answer that has formed my walk with God from that time onward. Who is Satan? and why is he there? What does he have to do with all this? Because really, it all started with the serpent in the Garden, and Eve's fall to temptation, then Adam going along with whatever she said.

I have a little study I'd be happy to share, if anyone is interested in walking through it, learning what the Bible has to say about Satan and his role on Planet Earth.

The next important question is, if we are damned as you suggest, how can we escape that fate? Is it about "meeting a standard," or is it something else?

menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 05:20 PM
I am starting to feel like HisLeast feels, here. The more I find out, the more I worry; am I doing it all, and am I doing it right? Am I doing anything I shouldn`t be doing???

RoadWarrior, I would love it if you shared your study with us! Please please do! :)

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 06:11 PM
I am starting to feel like HisLeast feels, here. The more I find out, the more I worry; am I doing it all, and am I doing it right? Am I doing anything I shouldn`t be doing???

RoadWarrior, I would love it if you shared your study with us! Please please do! :)

Thanks for the encouragement, menJesus! I have opened a new thread with the title "Who is Satan". See you there!

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=118545

menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 06:19 PM
I just saw it - thanks so much! Thanks! :)

HisLeast
Mar 9th 2008, 07:09 PM
The next important question is, if we are damned as you suggest, how can we escape that fate? Is it about "meeting a standard," or is it something else?

I don't know. Is it something else? If damnation can be escaped by something other than a minimum set of actions, then why are there so many actions that appear to be fulcrums for either damnation or salvation?

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 07:44 PM
I don't know. Is it something else? If damnation can be escaped by something other than a minimum set of actions, then why are there so many actions that appear to be fulcrums for either damnation or salvation?


I think it is something else. I think it is about being in relationship with God. It is about being a loved and loving member of a family, as opposed to being a slave on a cotton farm where you have to pick a minimum amount of cotton every day in order to avoid being beaten.

The way to avoid being a slave to someone who beats you, is to gain your freedom and become part of a family that works together and cares for each other.

Brother Mark
Mar 9th 2008, 07:45 PM
There is a big difference in being a slave and being a part of the family business. I like your point RW.

HisLeast
Mar 9th 2008, 09:29 PM
I think it is something else. I think it is about being in relationship with God. It is about being a loved and loving member of a family, as opposed to being a slave on a cotton farm where you have to pick a minimum amount of cotton every day in order to avoid being beaten.

The way to avoid being a slave to someone who beats you, is to gain your freedom and become part of a family that works together and cares for each other.

I dunno. I see things in the old testament so absolute that God is ready to destroy someone for not doing them (and I assume by his being G-d, its absolutely justified). If God doesn't change, then how come the same compulsions aren't requisite in the new testament?

Brother Mark
Mar 9th 2008, 09:39 PM
I dunno. I see things in the old testament so absolute that God is ready to destroy someone for not doing them. If God doesn't change, then how come the same compulsions aren't requisite in the new testament?

Because he destroyed me in Christ.

Gal 2:20-21
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me. 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
NASB

All that I was, has been crucified on the cross with Christ. Now, I live in Him and what He has done.

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 09:42 PM
I dunno. I see things in the old testament so absolute that God is ready to destroy someone for not doing them. If God doesn't change, then how come the same compulsions aren't requisite in the new testament?


There are things in the OT that were done once, as an example to teach. And the entire OT was done first for the Jews, remember. So as Fenris points out, the things in there do not necessarily apply to non-Jews.

pnewton
Mar 9th 2008, 09:59 PM
I just came across this thread and would like to add that God is often personified in the Old Testament. For examle, he is spoken of as having an arm or a face. Likewise, his actions are treated this way as when he "repented" of an action. Seriously, do we think if God was seeking Moses he would have to look around and find him and maybe bump into his wife first? This is merely a human way of understanding God's ultimatium to join his family to the covenant of Israel or die.

HisLeast
Mar 9th 2008, 11:00 PM
There are things in the OT that were done once, as an example to teach. And the entire OT was done first for the Jews, remember. So as Fenris points out, the things in there do not necessarily apply to non-Jews.

Good news.... well... sort of. Except which parts were just for the jews and which parts are for us? I've seen compelling cases for a great many parts. Of course, some of that might be wrong, but rule of averages says I'm pretty much damned.

Mark F
Mar 9th 2008, 11:51 PM
HisLeast,
you wrote:

Good news.... well... sort of. Except which parts were just for the jews and which parts are for us? I've seen compelling cases for a great many parts. Of course, some of that might be wrong, but rule of averages says I'm pretty much damned.


The rule of averages is wrong, pretty much damned is still a whole lot better than the truth of the matter. We are all completely damned, and that cannot change until we accept that fact. People always cling to the delusion that there is something I can do "to raise the average" to my favor. Jesus said the way is narrow and hard, and few will find it, the hardest thing we can do is accept that there is nothing in me worth redeeming, that is why few will find it.

The works are done after faith in obedience to conform us to the image of Christ in preperation for heavenly service.

All people of all ages have to come to God by faith trusting He is merciful to sinners who acknowledge their inability to do anything to aid in their salvation. I believe the Jews were soverienly chosen by God as His witness nation to the world, they failed and will yet be dealt with as God will not break His everlasting promises to them.

Brother Mark is right in what he quoted.

Don't worry about what's for them, what's for us, read the NT and write down all things that we have in Christ Jesus. He has accomplished all things and your job is to learn what the record says.

2 Peter 1

1 "Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Saved7
Mar 10th 2008, 12:00 AM
Its hard for me to wrap my mind around all that - God LOVED Moses!

And the reference is so obscure! Its as bad as me & my one-liners - hahaha. ;)


Moses was the leader of ALL Israel and the mouthpiece of God during a very pivatol time in history, the idea of Moses not keeping covenant and being allowed to continue would be a shame to God's Name.

HisLeast
Mar 10th 2008, 12:02 AM
The rule of averages is wrong, pretty much damned is still a whole lot better than the truth of the matter. We are all completely damned, and that cannot change until we accept that fact.

Indeed. I never suggested there's something we can do on our own.


People always cling to the delusion that there is something I can do "to raise the average" to my favor.

I wasn't suggesting we can "raise the average". What I'm saying is there are a plethora of things that, depending on who's asked, are ESSENTIAL to what you stated above. So accepting that we're powerless to merit our own salvation, we rely on Christ... then comes the kicker....


The works are done after faith in obedience to conform us to the image of Christ in preperation for heavenly service.

So which works are the necessary ones? Because I've seen excellent treatises on why any number of them are essential to validation of turning to Christ.

RoadWarrior
Mar 10th 2008, 12:16 AM
...

I wasn't suggesting we can "raise the average". What I'm saying is there are a plethora of things that, depending on who's asked, are ESSENTIAL to what you stated above. So accepting that we're powerless to merit our own salvation, we rely on Christ... then comes the kicker....

So which works are the necessary ones? Because I've seen excellent treatises on why any number of them are essential to validation of turning to Christ.

Therein lies the problem I think. It is the opinion of this one or that one, that you have to "do" something, either before salvation or after salvation, to "merit" your salvation.

It is not a contest, and we are not graded on the curve. It is a war, and we choose which side we fight on.

Some of us are unclear on the concept, and think we can go back and forth from one side to the other. But we can't. At some point, when we realize what is at stake, we make a choice. We choose. God, or Satan? Good, or evil?

Then from that point on, you fight for the side you chose. You do whatever it takes, whenever you can. If you stumble, you get up and fight on. We fight, but the battle is the Lord's, so we do not fight alone. We fight at His side.

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 12:17 AM
The first statement from Satan was "Has God said..." He often cast doubt on the Lord and what God promises to do, good or bad.

Trust in Christ and let Him crucify us. We can't do it.

Mark F
Mar 10th 2008, 12:41 AM
HisLeast,

I wasn't accusing you personally, I went with the statement you made and tried to build off that as a contrast.

I like Roadwarrior's reply, and I do not think that any work before or after salvation are of any salvific value. I read the word, by faith and prayer, only seeking to please God alone, do what I can. I cannot seek to be near Him in study and prayer alone, I need to be near Him in all the areas of my life.

As to the OP I think that there were many severe examples in times past, such as Annanias and Saphira, to show us that God takes these things very seriously, unlike us who sometimes are quite relaxed or careless. Moses had a huge thing before him and if he could not properly rule his family and follow the expectations of God, (good thing he had a wise wife;)!!) how could he lead the nation of Hebrews?

HisLeast
Mar 10th 2008, 01:59 AM
I like Roadwarrior's reply, and I do not think that any work before or after salvation are of any salvific value. I read the word, by faith and prayer, only seeking to please God alone, do what I can. I cannot seek to be near Him in study and prayer alone, I need to be near Him in all the areas of my life.

I wish I could be as sure.

RoadWarrior
Mar 10th 2008, 02:31 AM
I wish I could be as sure.

HisLeast - why are you not sure? Are you not sure that you belong to Jesus? That He belongs to you? Do you not know that you have been born again, adopted into His forever family?

Sometimes the theology of our upbringing can do so much harm that we don't know how to surrender our hearts and lives to the love of God.

Please feel free to PM me if you want to talk more privately about your concerns.

merricat
Mar 10th 2008, 06:21 PM
I believe Moses took circumcision to be a law thing when God meant it as a law thing for health benefit and a spiritual circumcision also.

I copied this from this link HERE (http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/134.circumcision.html) and don't know if I am supposed to here in the forum.


Circumcision is a divinely revealed law of health. Dr. McMillen cites exhaustive scientific studies proving that God knew what He was talking about by requiring eight day old boys to be circumcised. Squamous-cell carcinoma (cancer of the penis) is almost unknown among males who have been circumcised. Female uterine cervix cancer has been linked to sexual relations with uncircumcised males. "Most experts," McMillen states, "feel that these cancers are caused by smegma, a filthy and foul-smelling paste of bacteria and dead cells trapped under the foreskin," (page 89).
But why the eighth day? Did God know what He was doing? He sure did! After years of research, scientists have finally discovered that the age of eight days is the safest and best time to circumcise a male.
At birth a baby�s intestines contain no bacteria. Between the fifth to seventh day of life, these bacteria begin to proliferate and produce the important vitamin K. This vitamin goes to the liver where it plays an important part in forming four different clotting proteins. If any one of these proteins is missing, serious bleeding may result . . . . One of the proteins dependent on vitamin K is called pro-thrombin . . . An average eight-day-old baby has more available prothrombin than on any other day of his life (McMillen, page 92)
This is not a coincidence. It is proof of the validity of the Almighty�s laws. Even the manner of circumcision prescribed by God, flint knives (Joshua 5:2, margin), demonstrates the physical concern of our loving Creator for cleanliness. Such newly sharpened knives are practically sterile.
McMillen concludes that just as physical circumcision prevents disease, so also does spiritual circumcision. Spiritual circumcision is putting off sexual immorality, evil desires, anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language and lying, Colossians 2:11; 3:5, 8, 9. "And they that are Christ�s have crucified the flesh with the affections [passions] and lusts" Galatians 5:24. As a result, spiritually circumcised believers are freed from emotional stress, a leading cause of many diseases. "While physical circumcision of men�s filthy foreskins prevents cancer, spiritual circumcision of our evil natures prevents a far greater number of important diseases" (page 96).

peace and love

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 07:20 PM
It is also important to note that power comes with holiness. I was just speaking with my pastor about this as he preached on this passage last night. He also brought up Peter and how Peter was called by God. But God had to work some things out of Peter before Peter could preach with power on Pentecost. So it is with Moses too. Moses was not following the guidelines of the covenant and walking in Holiness.

Another thought also comes to mind. In Timothy, God requires that the leadership be held to a standard of holiness. God has always had that same standard. He called Moses but Moses wasn't keeping his own house in order. He was moving out on God's calling without first dealing with his issue of his own house not being in order. God would have none of it.

Now, we know if God intended to kill him, he would be dead. God would have killed him, but he worked slow enough in the process that Moses and his family could understand what was happening and remedy the situation.

merricat
Mar 10th 2008, 07:47 PM
Brother Mark and all other members....Please accept my apology for posting part of the article without a reference. The article was citing a book by Dr. McMillen at the below link. I should have know better:B

http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/134.circumcision.html




peace and love

bjones
Mar 11th 2008, 03:33 AM
I read this the other day, and I can`t even begin to figure it out at all.

What did Moses do to bring this on? Is anything in history about this?

Why did God start to kill Moses???

And what changed His mind?

Exodus 4:

24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.


See the thread "Moses wild ride" for the Sensus plenior of this verse.

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 01:18 PM
I did read it. But it says this:

FF:Exod 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him [Jesus], and [killed] him.

But I have three different versions of the Bible now, and none of mine say it that way.

So I put it out here...

Thanks for the reference, though, to the other thread.

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 09:42 PM
QUESTION: how did Zipporah know what was going on?

How did she know to circumcise the boy, to appease God?

bjones
Mar 11th 2008, 09:43 PM
I did read it. But it says this:

FF:Exod 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him [Jesus], and [killed] him.

But I have three different versions of the Bible now, and none of mine say it that way.

So I put it out here...

Thanks for the reference, though, to the other thread.


This thread was based upon the shadow hermeneutic the same as the Levite and the concubine.

Brother Mark
Mar 11th 2008, 09:45 PM
QUESTION: how did Zipporah know what was going on?

How did she know to circumcise the boy, to appease God?

The Abrahamic covenant had circumcision as a part of it. Moses very well may have been circumcised. I am sure, when God showed up to kill them, he explained why. Covenant is a big deal to the Lord. It's part of being holy.

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 10:58 PM
So how did God go about this? Did Moses see Him face-to-face?

Certainly Zipporah didn`t...

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 11:18 PM
This thread was based upon the shadow hermeneutic the same as the Levite and the concubine.

Maybe so. But I was trying to point out that it is wrong.

The Lord met him on the road. But He DIDN`T kill him.

Brother Mark
Mar 11th 2008, 11:57 PM
So how did God go about this? Did Moses see Him face-to-face?

Certainly Zipporah didn`t...

God didn't meet face to face with Moses till after Sinai. Where God is silent on an issue, we can be as well. You may never get all your questions about it answered. Though it is a very important and interesting passage!

When one is going into ministry, it is wise to walk in holiness.

menJesus
Mar 12th 2008, 12:02 AM
Well, fiddlesticks! ;)

bjones
Mar 12th 2008, 01:02 PM
Maybe so. But I was trying to point out that it is wrong.

The Lord met him on the road. But He DIDN`T kill him.

It isn't wrong. In the shadows, whenever you have someone threatened with death, but they don't die, it is a shadow of Christ's death and resurrection.

Mordecai on the gallows, is another example.

The Exodus shadow is part of a whole narrative in the shadows where Christ has a bride chosen by the father (Israel), and he now goes to woo (call) a bride (the church). His first wife is reminding him that He is a husband of life to her because of the covenant, and that he should not forget her as he goes off to Egypt (the world).

The two wives are also part of the prostitute-bride theme that is prominent in the shadows.

menJesus
Mar 12th 2008, 06:10 PM
I must agree to disagree with you here. My Bibles do not say it... and I believe in my Bibles...