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Illumined
Mar 7th 2008, 08:49 AM
Daniels 70th Week/7 Year Tribulation

It is presumed to be seven years long.


The tribulation is a time of world wide wrath by God, the likes which we have never seen.

First Half of Tribulation
The antichrist comes onto the world scene in 2 Thess 2:9, Rev 6:2, the world hails him as the Christ (matt 24:23)…he confirms a covenant for one ‘seven’ (Daniel 9:27) but does not yet control the world and all its power.

I don’t think that God will allow “every kind of plague as often as they want”, unless it is during the time of the appointed wrath.

Rev 11 gives us a clue. The two witnesses are going about their business of God, striking the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want without any harm coming to them. They do this for 17 days short of 3 & ス years. It is also during this time that the holy city is being trampled for 42 months or 3 & ス years.

Second Half of Tribulation
It makes sense that at this point, 'the middle of the seven- Dan 9:27', the antichrist gains world power (Rev 17:13) for 42 months or 3& ス years, (Rev 13:5), at this point and is allowed by God to kill the two witnesses Rev 11:7.

In Rev 17:13 the antichrist gets his power and Rev 13:5 tells us how long it lasts (42 months)
Daniel 7:25 tells us that the saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
It is assumed Time=1 year, Times=2 years, Half a time= 6 months…3& ス years or 42 months. This fits nicely into our presumption.


The antichrist will rule the world for 42 months until he is killed by Jesus Christ at the Revelation. Daniel 7:21 tells of the antichrist waging war against the saints and then is forced to lose by Jesus Christ. This also tells the story. Rev 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.


God does kind of indicate a pattern of seven for punishment in scripture.

Leviticus 26:18
" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.

Daniel 4:16
Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.

Leviticus 26:21
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.

Judges 6:1
[ Gideon ] Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites.

Revelation 15:1[ Seven Angels with Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.




I think that it is safe to say that the tribulation is seven years long.



What do you think??????

Samir
Mar 7th 2008, 05:47 PM
Hmm, we'll find out how long the tribulation is.

I mean, we all know the storyline. But when we live it, we cannot assume we know what comes next, scene by scene. For example, there was a 7-year tribulation at around 70ad when the temple was destroyed, so maybe it already happened. I dont believe it already happened because there was no messiah in 70ad. But I think Christians sometimes have to step back from endtimes studies, and realize they may live these events in their lifetimes. They will either be raptured or fight the war on the ground, but cannot become complacent just because they read it will be over in seven years.

The Christian Boards and books have done an amazing job of mapping out the timelines -- now they need to put those things aside and do their part when revelations starts to unfold.

Illumined
Mar 7th 2008, 06:12 PM
I was reading a thread where someone asked ..'how do we really know that the tribulation is 7 years long'.

That WAS a good question...so I tried to tackle it myself last night, just to see what I could come up with. I think that I proved it to myself with a certain amount of probability.

Revelation 11 was the key for me....

markedward
Mar 7th 2008, 06:16 PM
The Revelation only describes a period of 42 months, 1260 days, time and times and half a time, etc. Never does the Revelation describe a seven-year period; it only describes a 3.5 year period. Daniel 12 refers to 1335 days and 1290 days, each being just more than 3.5 years.

As for the individual of Daniel 9. In the context of the whole passage, only one individual is being discussed. This individual is explicitly called "the Messiah" (or "Anointed One" or "Christ") and "the Prince" (or "Ruler" or "Leader") in verse 9:25, and He is prophesied to come in the future. "Messiah" is mentioned in the future tense in verse 9:26, so we directly refer back to the individual of verse 9:25. "The Prince" is mentioned in the future tense, so in context with verse 9:25, this "Prince who is to come" can be seen to be the same individual as the one mentioned in verses 9:25 and 9:26. This covenant-maker is "the Messiah, the Prince" (9:25).

Daniel 9 never says that the covenant being made was to be brought to an end. All it says is that the "Prince" was to make a "covenant with many" during the week (i.e., the final "week" of the 70 weeks), and halfway through that week/seven years He would put an end to offering and sacrifice. Jesus arrived at the end of the 69th week (and thusly, at the start of the 70th week). He began His ministry, preaching the New Covenant with mankind. Three-and-one-half years later (i.e., halfway through the final "week," the final seven years) He was crucified, and He became the final, one and only sacrifice/sin-offering. He put an end to sacrifices and sin-offerings with His one and only sacrifice. And, as Daniel 9 stated, "desolations were decreed" (9:26) and the events following Jesus' sacrifice "consummated" (9:27) in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (Daniel 9:26-27, Luke 21:6,20-24) in the lifetime of Jesus' generation (Luke 21:32) by means of armies/war (Daniel 9:26, Luke 21:20).

The covenant-maker of Daniel 9 is not "the antichrist," and neither is he the "man of lawlessness." Again, in the context of the whole passage, only one individual is being discussed, explicitly called "the Messiah, the Prince." The covenant-maker is the Messiah, and nothing in Daniel 9 says that the covenent he makes would come to an end.



The "abomination of desolation" mentioned in Daniel 9 is referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21:

Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel様et the reader understand葉hen let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14 When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong様et the reader understand葉hen let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20-21 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

Notice! Where Matthew and Mark mention "abomination that causes desolation," Luke mentions "Jerusalem being surrounded by armies." The "abomination of desolation" Jesus spoke of isn't some antichrist performing an evil ritual in the temple, it is a group of armies surrounding Jerusalem, coming to destroy the city and the temple! Let's read on in Luke's version:

Luke 21:22-24 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Jesus outright states that the armies surrounding Jerusalem (i.e., the "abomination that causes desolation") is punishment. Who is being punished? The people in Jerusalem. And who is punishing them? God. This may seem backwards at first, but is this really any different than when God punished the people of Jerusalem through the forces of Nebuchadnezzar?

Then Jesus says that Jerusalem will be "trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." The only place in the Revelation that this corresponds to is Revelation 11:1-2, where John is told that "[the Gentiles] will trample on the holy city [Jerusalem] for 42 months." 42 months, 1260 days, time and times and half a time, three and a half years.

A seven year tribulation doesn't fit. A three and a half year tribulation does.

quiet dove
Mar 7th 2008, 07:15 PM
I find this interesting, as all of Ezekiel. But what is this seven years? And if it happened already, when? If not, does it have any relevance in the seven year question of the tribulation?

Eze 39:9 "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years.

Clifton
Mar 7th 2008, 07:37 PM
Daniels 70th Week/7 Year Tribulation

It is presumed to be seven years long...What do you think??????

Some people believe it to be 7 years, others 3 1/2 years, and others some undefined period of time. My Exegetical Commentary notes a period of 42 months of tragedy - just not sure yet if there is another and different 42 months at this point. But I have never noted an explicit mention of "7 years".

Blessings.

Illumined
Mar 7th 2008, 11:59 PM
The Revelation only describes a period of 42 months, 1260 days, time and times and half a time, etc. Never does the Revelation describe a seven-year period; it only describes a 3.5 year period. Daniel 12 refers to 1335 days and 1290 days, each being just more than 3.5 years.

A seven year tribulation doesn't fit. A three and a half year tribulation does.

What about the two witness raging the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want with no harm coming to them. They do this for 17 days short of three and one half years???

No harm until there three and one half years are done and then the antichrist kills them. He rules for 42 months??

What about the indications of God using a period of time in sevens as punishment??


Leviticus 26:18
" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.

Daniel 4:16
Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.

Leviticus 26:21
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.

Judges 6:1
[ Gideon ] Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites.

Revelation 15:1[ Seven Angels with Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues様ast, because with them God's wrath is completed.


Doesn't this seem plausible??

markedward
Mar 8th 2008, 12:18 AM
What about the two witness raging the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want with no harm coming to them. They do this for 17 days short of three and one half years???The passage says they do this for 1260 days. That's nowhere near being seven years.


No harm until there three and one half years are done and then the antichrist kills them. He rules for 42 months??Beast. The term "antichrist" does not appear in the Revelation. There doesn't appear to be enough room to fit a full 42 months between the time of their deaths and the seventh trumpet. The 42 months that the beast rules during (see Revelation 13) seems best to correspond to the 42 months of the Gentiles (see Revelation 11), and this 42 months is parallel to the 1260 days that the witnesses preach during, and the 1260 days that the woman (see Revelation 12) is protected. If you try to add each instance of 1260 days/42 months/time and times and half a time, you get more than seven years.


What about the indications of God using a period of time in sevens as punishment??The following verses relate to other times and other people; none of them speak of the end-times, and none of them are from the Revelation.


Leviticus 26:18
" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.This passage of Leviticus mentions four sets of sevens, not just one. And neither do they mention years. God is saying He will multiply the punishment in intensity, not in duration. If I say I fill a cup "two times over," I'm not saying I'm filling it over a doubly-long period, I'm saying I filled it with a double amount.


Daniel 4:16
Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.This was for Nebuchadnezzar, not in the Revelation.


Leviticus 26:21
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve."Seven times over" does not equate to "seven years."


Judges 6:1
[ Gideon ] Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites.What does this have to do with the Revelation?


Revelation 15:1[ Seven Angels with Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues様ast, because with them God's wrath is completed.Seven angels, seven plagues, seven trumpets, seven thunders, seven seals... I don't see seven years anywhere.

quiet dove
Mar 8th 2008, 01:11 AM
What about the two witness raging the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want with no harm coming to them. They do this for 17 days short of three and one half years???

No harm until there three and one half years are done and then the antichrist kills them. He rules for 42 months??

What about the indications of God using a period of time in sevens as punishment??


Leviticus 26:18
" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.

Daniel 4:16
Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.

Leviticus 26:21
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.

Judges 6:1
[ Gideon ] Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites.

Revelation 15:1[ Seven Angels with Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues様ast, because with them God's wrath is completed.


Doesn't this seem plausible??

Seems plausible to me.

Illumined
Mar 11th 2008, 06:48 AM
The more I analyze it...the more I convince myself it to be so.....in my own mind that is.

The antichrist confirms a covenant for one seven. He can't break it until he is allowed by God to have all the power in the world. Half way through the seven...God grants it via the ten kings whom God has placed it in their hearts to hand over the world power.

Now antichrist has all the granted power and authority to do as he wills.
He kills the two witnesses, forces a world-wide economic sanction and worship of himself by threat of death and enforces it. He rules for 42 months to the end.

I don't see it possible that the two witnesses can be killed by antichrist until God grants him worldwide power and authority to do so. He does it to them and then he starts on the christians. Scriptures say that he will succeed in all that he wills. Dan 8:24-25.

To get to seven years...I look before he is allowed to wage war and kill holy people.

I see two holy people waging the wrath of God on earth as they will for 17 days short of 3 and 1/2 years. This can only be during the time of the wrath of God. They do so unharmed for almost 3 and 1/2 years and then antichrist comes to power and kills them...and reigns for 3 and 1/2 years.

I see 7 years very clearly.

I am more convinced by my own study than that of the popular authors of today.

If you don't see it that way...no big deal...this is not a spine issue, perhaps not even a rib issue either.

Illumined
Mar 11th 2008, 07:06 AM
A seven year tribulation doesn't fit. A three and a half year tribulation does.

He cant kill the holy people until he is granted world power for 42 months. The saints are handed over to him by God.
Two witness rage the earth for almost 42 months unharmed before he is granted to the power of the earth and with that wage war on the holy people and kill them.

The two witness can't be raging the earth with the wrath of God unless it is during the time of His wrath. They do this for almost 42 months before antichrist comes to power and kills them and then goes on raging the earth himself for 42 months.

I kind of repeat myself....sorry.

I see 'almost' 42 months of God's wrath on earth before antichrist comes to power for the next 42 months. That is 84 months or 7 years.

markedward
Mar 11th 2008, 02:18 PM
I believe the Bible says...the tribulation will last 7 years.None of the stuff quoted says "The tribulation will last for seven years." It's all speculation derived from verses unrelated to the Revelation itself, or from verses in the Revelation that only speak of 3 1/2 years. If every instance of 3 1/2 years in the Revelation is pulled together and added together, you'd have at least 14 years, not seven. The closest anyone has gotten was the final "week" of Daniel 9, and there are significant interpretations that differ and still make sense.

divaD
Mar 11th 2008, 05:15 PM
I find this interesting, as all of Ezekiel. But what is this seven years? And if it happened already, when? If not, does it have any relevance in the seven year question of the tribulation?

Eze 39:9 "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years.



Personally I would think that verse occurs after the trib. The reason why is this.

Ezekiel 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel


I don't see where verse 7 has come to pass yet. So if it hasn't been fullfilled, then that pretty much puts the rest of Ezekiel 39 as unfllfilled also. But when verse 7 is fullfilled, it will only be after the Lord has physically returned to the earth, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.


This apears to me to be describing the scene from Rev 19. Also, from reading Ez 38, we learn that the Lord's presense upon the earth is indeed physical. So we should be able to conclude that EZ 39:9 occurs after the trib, and after the Lord has already returned. At least that's what I can conclude. Someone else may not come to those same conclusions.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

David Taylor
Mar 11th 2008, 05:22 PM
I find this interesting, as all of Ezekiel. But what is this seven years? And if it happened already, when? If not, does it have any relevance in the seven year question of the tribulation?

Eze 39:9 "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years.

Sounds like a 7 year period of ancient antiquity......

....back in olden times when people fought with bows and arrows and chariots and spears.

Yes, it happened in ancient antiquity, sometime near the life of Ezekiel in the 500 B.C.s.....even if we are not conclusively sure of when exactly; we know it is from that era; when people fought with bows and arrows and chariots.

quiet dove
Mar 11th 2008, 06:52 PM
Personally I would think that verse occurs after the trib. The reason why is this.

Ezekiel 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel


I don't see where verse 7 has come to pass yet. So if it hasn't been fullfilled, then that pretty much puts the rest of Ezekiel 39 as unfllfilled also. But when verse 7 is fullfilled, it will only be after the Lord has physically returned to the earth, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.


This apears to me to be describing the scene from Rev 19. Also, from reading Ez 38, we learn that the Lord's presense upon the earth is indeed physical. So we should be able to conclude that EZ 39:9 occurs after the trib, and after the Lord has already returned. At least that's what I can conclude. Someone else may not come to those same conclusions.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I would say it either occurs before the trib begins or like you said, at Rev 19. My problem with Rev 19 is this statement:

Ezekiel 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

What is meant by carelessly? Is is security, safety, confidence, hope? That one word makes a lot of difference in how to take this because at Rev 19, things are going to be bad....BAD

wpm
Mar 11th 2008, 06:57 PM
Daniels 70th Week/7 Year Tribulation

It is presumed to be seven years long.


The tribulation is a time of world wide wrath by God, the likes which we have never seen.

First Half of Tribulation
The antichrist comes onto the world scene in 2 Thess 2:9, Rev 6:2, the world hails him as the Christ (matt 24:23)…he confirms a covenant for one ‘seven’ (Daniel 9:27) but does not yet control the world and all its power.

I don’t think that God will allow “every kind of plague as often as they want”, unless it is during the time of the appointed wrath.

Rev 11 gives us a clue. The two witnesses are going about their business of God, striking the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want without any harm coming to them. They do this for 17 days short of 3 & ス years. It is also during this time that the holy city is being trampled for 42 months or 3 & ス years.

Second Half of Tribulation
It makes sense that at this point, 'the middle of the seven- Dan 9:27', the antichrist gains world power (Rev 17:13) for 42 months or 3& ス years, (Rev 13:5), at this point and is allowed by God to kill the two witnesses Rev 11:7.

In Rev 17:13 the antichrist gets his power and Rev 13:5 tells us how long it lasts (42 months)
Daniel 7:25 tells us that the saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
It is assumed Time=1 year, Times=2 years, Half a time= 6 months…3& ス years or 42 months. This fits nicely into our presumption.


The antichrist will rule the world for 42 months until he is killed by Jesus Christ at the Revelation. Daniel 7:21 tells of the antichrist waging war against the saints and then is forced to lose by Jesus Christ. This also tells the story. Rev 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.


God does kind of indicate a pattern of seven for punishment in scripture.

Leviticus 26:18
" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.

Daniel 4:16
Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.

Leviticus 26:21
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.

Judges 6:1
[ Gideon ] Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites.

Revelation 15:1[ Seven Angels with Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.




I think that it is safe to say that the tribulation is seven years long.



What do you think??????

Where are the 2 Comings of the Lord in Daniel 9 separated by 7 years?

Paul

quiet dove
Mar 11th 2008, 07:09 PM
Sounds like a 7 year period of ancient antiquity......

....back in olden times when people fought with bows and arrows and chariots and spears.

Yes, it happened in ancient antiquity, sometime near the life of Ezekiel in the 500 B.C.s.....even if we are not conclusively sure of when exactly; we know it is from that era; when people fought with bows and arrows and chariots.

I know they fought with bows, arrows and chariots, when in Israels history did they burn the weapons for seven years and

Eze 39:11 "It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog. 12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.


-If Gog has burial place in Israel, or had one, seems like someone would know without doubt who gog is?
--who is renown for all this burying?

Illumined
Mar 12th 2008, 03:43 PM
Where are the 2 Comings of the Lord in Daniel 9 separated by 7 years?

Paul
answering that is a subect for its own thread as it would detract this subject of scriptural indication of a 7 year tribulation

wpm
Mar 12th 2008, 03:52 PM
answering that is a subect for its own thread as it would detract this subject of scriptural indication of a 7 year tribulation

Where even is the tribulation in Dan 9? What is going to happen there.

I would be obliged if you would answer my request in another thread as I can't see these three elements in Dan 9.

Regards.

Paul

John146
Mar 12th 2008, 04:44 PM
answering that is a subect for its own thread as it would detract this subject of scriptural indication of a 7 year tribulation

You are using Daniel 9 as supposed evidence of a 7-year tribulation period preceding the second coming of Christ, are you not? So, yes, it is related to your subject. So, where is even one future (to us) coming of Christ mentioned in Daniel 9, let alone two (not sure if you are pre-trib or post-trib)? If the 70th week really was speaking of a future 7-year tribulation then why doesn't the text itself mention this supposed 7-year tribulation and why wouldn't it even mention the second coming of Christ that follows this supposed 7-year tribulation?

Eric

quiet dove
Mar 12th 2008, 05:53 PM
You are using Daniel 9 as supposed evidence of a 7-year tribulation period preceding the second coming of Christ, are you not? So, yes, it is related to your subject. So, where is even one future (to us) coming of Christ mentioned in Daniel 9, let alone two (not sure if you are pre-trib or post-trib)? If the 70th week really was speaking of a future 7-year tribulation then why doesn't the text itself mention this supposed 7-year tribulation and why wouldn't it even mention the second coming of Christ that follows this supposed 7-year tribulation?

Eric

So since Daniel does not mention the Second Advent of Christ, that means there isnt one? And if Daniel were to mention seven years it would not matter anyway because the Second Advent is not mentioned in the first place?

wpm
Mar 12th 2008, 06:05 PM
So since Daniel does not mention the Second Advent of Christ, that means there isnt one? And if Daniel were to mention seven years it would not matter anyway because the Second Advent is not mentioned in the first place?

This is absolutely essential in establishing the context and application of this reading. Pretrib builds its whole structure on this yet there is no rapture, third Coming and 7 yr trib mentioned here. It has to be imported into it.

Paul

quiet dove
Mar 12th 2008, 06:11 PM
This is absolutely essential in establishing the context and application of this reading. Pretrib builds its whole structure on this yet there is no rapture, third Coming and 7 yr trib mentioned here. It has to be imported into it.

Paul

Pre trib hardly builds its whole structure only on Daniel 9. Daniel 9, as all scripture, gives more information to harmonize and give understanding to the entire plans of God and His dealing with man kind.

wpm
Mar 12th 2008, 06:56 PM
Pre trib hardly builds its whole structure only on Daniel 9. Daniel 9, as all scripture, gives more information to harmonize and give understanding to the entire plans of God and His dealing with man kind.

As yet I have saw no rapture, third Coming or trib quoted in this reading by Pretribs. We know there is no mention of the 7 yrs trib in the NT, so, where is?

Paul

quiet dove
Mar 12th 2008, 07:53 PM
As yet I have saw no rapture, third Coming or trib quoted in this reading by Pretribs. We know there is no mention of the 7 yrs trib in the NT, so, where is?

Paul

The Jews did not see there would be a First Advent and a Second Advent. The First not being as detailed, not until hind sight opened it up more. For that matter many a person, Jew and Gentile still do not see it.

There is no way you or anyone else will convince me at this point, after having read many well put together arguements, that the one in 9:27 is Christ. (No point in me listing them) We know we are going to have to agree to disagree, we have been round and round over most of it.

This is not will ill heart said. :) I'm just tired, with much on my mind.

wpm
Mar 12th 2008, 08:14 PM
QD

That is fine but the clear and explicit passages in the NT (the fuller revaltion) show a climactic Coming in which the righteous and the wicked are judged at the same time before the same throne.

Paul

yoSAMite
Mar 13th 2008, 03:05 AM
Markeward answered:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illumined http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1565025#post1565025)
What about the two witness raging the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want with no harm coming to them. They do this for 17 days short of three and one half years???

The passage says they do this for 1260 days. That's nowhere near being seven years.I think the belief for pre-trib in general is that the 2 witnesses are around for the first half of the 7 year period, not the whole 7 years.

As an aside to Illumined, most that have a view similar to yours also believe that Daniel's 7 year period is in the 360 day (30 days in 12 months) Jewish calendar.

It's my personal opinion that the 2 witnesses arrive on the scene on the same day as the covenant is confirmed, remain unharmed for the 1260 days and then are killed by the antichrist (term used for better or worse), he then claims to be god, the abomination of desolation takes place and the "great tribulation", the time of Jacobs trouble, etc happens.

yoSAMite
Mar 13th 2008, 03:12 AM
wpm said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by quiet dove http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1570854#post1570854)
Pre trib hardly builds its whole structure only on Daniel 9. Daniel 9, as all scripture, gives more information to harmonize and give understanding to the entire plans of God and His dealing with man kind.

As yet I have saw no rapture, third Coming or trib quoted in this reading by Pretribs. We know there is no mention of the 7 yrs trib in the NT, so, where is?I think one reason you would not see a rapture mentioned in this verse is that the church is a mystery in the OT. The pre-trib view is that the rapture is a church only event. If the belief that the church is raptured out before the 7 years of tribulation it makes sense that it, the generic 7 year tribulation, would also not be mention in the NT.

I think one of the reasons the response to your question has not been answered to your satisfaction is that the dispensation view cannot answer in the parameters you request, because they don't believe they happen in the small box you want to put them in.

Best wishes Paul, it's nice to see you again.

wpm
Mar 13th 2008, 03:38 AM
wpm said:
I think one reason you would not see a rapture mentioned in this verse is that the church is a mystery in the OT. The pre-trib view is that the rapture is a church only event. If the belief that the church is raptured out before the 7 years of tribulation it makes sense that it, the generic 7 year tribulation, would also not be mention in the NT.

I think one of the reasons the response to your question has not been answered to your satisfaction is that the dispensation view cannot answer in the parameters you request, because they don't believe they happen in the small box you want to put them in.

Best wishes Paul, it's nice to see you again.

Good to see you.

So, it is not in the OT and not in the NT, where is it? From what I can see there is only one climactic Coming. Saved or lost, caught up or caught on, heaven or hell.

Paul

honcho
Mar 13th 2008, 03:53 AM
I find this interesting, as all of Ezekiel. But what is this seven years? And if it happened already, when? If not, does it have any relevance in the seven year question of the tribulation?

Eze 39:9 "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years.

The seven years of burning weapons is after the Tribulation.

When God makes known his holy name among his people Israel, he will no longer let his name be profaned by them. The nations will know that He is the Holy One in Israel (v.7). Christ has to return in wrath to accomplish the above in verse 7. Gog and his armies will be destroyed at his return and the weapons used for fuel for seven years.

quiet dove
Mar 13th 2008, 04:52 AM
The seven years of burning weapons is after the Tribulation.

When God makes known his holy name among his people Israel, he will no longer let his name be profaned by them. The nations will know that He is the Holy One in Israel (v.7). Christ has to return in wrath to accomplish the above in verse 7. Gog and his armies will be destroyed at his return and the weapons used for fuel for seven years.


So you are saying at Rev 19 is when this battle happens? At Christ Second Advent?

I would agree it is either then or before the trib gets cranked up, I just cant decide which. :hmm:

In the other post you quoted me and wpm but I am thinking you were responding to him? (post #28 I think)

honcho
Mar 13th 2008, 01:52 PM
So you are saying at Rev 19 is when this battle happens? At Christ Second Advent?

The sixth vial drys up the Euphrates allowing the kings from the East to fight at Armageddon followed by the 7th vial with its world wide destruction (16:16-21). What happens during the 6th vial is described in 19:17-21. The rider on the white horse is the sign spoken of in Mt. 24:30 that precedes Armageddon. After the war Christ returns to the Mount of Olives (Zec. 14:4) causing world wide destruction. Then the wedding of the Lamb and his reign begins (19:1-10).

quiet dove
Mar 13th 2008, 05:45 PM
The sixth vial drys up the Euphrates allowing the kings from the East to fight at Armageddon followed by the 7th vial with its world wide destruction (16:16-21). What happens during the 6th vial is described in 19:17-21. The rider on the white horse is the sign spoken of in Mt. 24:30 that precedes Armageddon. After the war Christ returns to the Mount of Olives (Zec. 14:4) causing world wide destruction. Then the wedding of the Lamb and his reign begins (19:1-10).

Oops, now we are not seeing it the same way. I disagree that the white horse is the same as Matt 24:30. I do not believe that the horse being white is an automatic indicator that it is Christ upon it. I believe with this particular white horse, we have a wolf in sheep clothing. Like the second beast from the earth, with its two horns like a lamb. We got somebody trying to pull something over on us with these two. :hmm:

I think I do agree with you about Zec 14:4 and Rev 19:1-10:hmm:

Firstfruits
Mar 15th 2008, 01:08 PM
Daniels 70th Week/7 Year Tribulation

It is presumed to be seven years long.


The tribulation is a time of world wide wrath by God, the likes which we have never seen.

First Half of Tribulation
The antichrist comes onto the world scene in 2 Thess 2:9, Rev 6:2, the world hails him as the Christ (matt 24:23)he confirms a covenant for one 壮even (Daniel 9:27) but does not yet control the world and all its power.

I don稚 think that God will allow 兎very kind of plague as often as they want, unless it is during the time of the appointed wrath.

Rev 11 gives us a clue. The two witnesses are going about their business of God, striking the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want without any harm coming to them. They do this for 17 days short of 3 & ス years. It is also during this time that the holy city is being trampled for 42 months or 3 & ス years.

Second Half of Tribulation
It makes sense that at this point, 'the middle of the seven- Dan 9:27', the antichrist gains world power (Rev 17:13) for 42 months or 3& ス years, (Rev 13:5), at this point and is allowed by God to kill the two witnesses Rev 11:7.

In Rev 17:13 the antichrist gets his power and Rev 13:5 tells us how long it lasts (42 months)
Daniel 7:25 tells us that the saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
It is assumed Time=1 year, Times=2 years, Half a time= 6 months3& ス years or 42 months. This fits nicely into our presumption.


The antichrist will rule the world for 42 months until he is killed by Jesus Christ at the Revelation. Daniel 7:21 tells of the antichrist waging war against the saints and then is forced to lose by Jesus Christ. This also tells the story. Rev 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.


God does kind of indicate a pattern of seven for punishment in scripture.

Leviticus 26:18
" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.

Daniel 4:16
Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.

Leviticus 26:21
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.

Judges 6:1
[ Gideon ] Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites.

Revelation 15:1[ Seven Angels with Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues様ast, because with them God's wrath is completed.




I think that it is safe to say that the tribulation is seven years long.



What do you think??????

I have a question, at which point would you have the milenium reign with Christ knowing that Jesus comes and destroys Satan after it is complete, does the tribulation last until Jesus comes back?

yoSAMite
Mar 16th 2008, 05:39 AM
wpm asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khoolaid http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1571391#post1571391)
wpm said:
I think one reason you would not see a rapture mentioned in this verse is that the church is a mystery in the OT. The pre-trib view is that the rapture is a church only event. If the belief that the church is raptured out before the 7 years of tribulation it makes sense that it, the generic 7 year tribulation, would also not be mention in the NT.

I think one of the reasons the response to your question has not been answered to your satisfaction is that the dispensation view cannot answer in the parameters you request, because they don't believe they happen in the small box you want to put them in.

Best wishes Paul, it's nice to see you again.

Good to see you.

So, it is not in the OT and not in the NT, where is it? From what I can see there is only one climactic Coming. Saved or lost, caught up or caught on, heaven or hell.


I'm only familiar with one Second Coming of the Lord also. I don't view the rapture is a coming of the Lord. They are separate events.

To expand a bit on my first answer. The 7 year period known as the tribulation, (rightly or wrongly) is considered a Jewish event. As such, it isn't discussed in the instructions of the NT, other than in Revelation and probably 2 Thes. This much discussed 7 year period is mentioned in the OT, Daniel gives the time frame, and other places expand on it. ie - the time of Jacobs trouble.

Likewise the rapture being a church event would not be discussed in the OT as it doesn't apply to Israel.

Your question seems to want to combine these and from a pre-trib view it's like combining apples and oranges and making a steak. It can't be done.

From what I've read, on an individual basis the pre-trib view agrees with virtually everything you and other end time beliefs say about salvation. We see distinct differences between the corporate entities of the church, the unsaved and Israel. Individually Romans 10:12 applies "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Corporately we don't believe it does.

RayG
Mar 16th 2008, 11:21 PM
Some people believe it to be 7 years, others 3 1/2 years, and others some undefined period of time. My Exegetical Commentary notes a period of 42 months of tragedy - just not sure yet if there is another and different 42 months at this point. But I have never noted an explicit mention of "7 years".

Blessings.


Greetings:
Seems that what many believers refer to as, "The Tribulation", is 7 years, and the last 3 1/2 years of it is the "Great Tribulation" that the Lord talked about in Matthew 24.

Take care
RayG

Clifton
Mar 16th 2008, 11:42 PM
Greetings:
Seems that what many believers refer to as, "The Tribulation", is 7 years, and the last 3 1/2 years of it is the "Great Tribulation" that the Lord talked about in Matthew 24.

Take care
RayG


And greetings to you as well! My Middle name is "Ray".;)

Yes, perhaps my Exegetical Commentary that notes a period of 42 months of tragedy is referring to the GT. It is over a 1000 pages, and at times, I just bounce all over the 2 volumes.

Blessings.

resbmc
Apr 10th 2008, 12:56 PM
I dont believe there is a 7 year trubulation, that has been around since the 1900s, and that is when it started. Danial used a very masculine work-Shavuim than Shavuot that he used for the other 69 weeks. I believe the very maculine word of Shavuim, takes the same hold as the 50 years of Jubilee did. Daniel Chapter 7 was written in about 553 B C, Chapter 12 around 533 B C about 20 years apart. Now if time, times and half a times means 2500 years, then Chapter 7--553plus 2500 = 1948 when Israel became a nation and then take Chap 12, -533 plus 2500 you get 1967 when Israel took Jerusalem. Now here is the catch, you have 2500 years plus the 20 years between the 2 books and that gives you 2520 totals years. If you take a hebrew year of 360 years and mulitple it by 7 you get 2520 years, what a coincidence. God is showing us when the times of the Gentile was over. No 7 year tribulation, anyone who knows the scriptures will tell you is a "theory", not scriptual, that it is for certain:hmm:.

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2008, 02:52 PM
I don't view the rapture is a coming of the Lord. They are separate events.

Paul taught they were the same event though.

I Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that
we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then
we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"

"we which are alive and remain" both do so
"unto the coming of the Lord"
and
"are caught up (latin: raptured)"

When the Lord descends from Heaven.


Paul taught one event, the rapture occuring for we which are alive and remain, at the coming of the Lord.

resbmc
Apr 10th 2008, 05:19 PM
no where in 1 Thess 4 does it say its the same thing, The Lord will come down with a loud shout, the rapture happens and then we will be forever with the Lord, nowhere does it say it is the second coming, that happens 15 days later, the space of a hour,, we are have dinner while armeggedon starts.

IPet2_9
Apr 10th 2008, 05:22 PM
I believe there is a literal Tribulation, but not 7 years or 3 1/2 years. But that is strictly my opinion, and I am not prepared to back that up with Scripture.

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2008, 05:29 PM
no where in 1 Thess 4 does it say its the same thing, The Lord will come down with a loud shout, the rapture happens and then we will be forever with the Lord, nowhere does it say it is the second coming, that happens 15 days later, the space of a hour,, we are have dinner while armeggedon starts.


Again, avoiding inserting a bunch of external commentary as your paragraph above does; just quoting scripture we find....

I Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that
we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord

It was Paul who said, 'unto the coming of the Lord', not me.

Paul says the same people (himself included) "which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord' are those "which are alive and remain shall be caught up'.

Paul tells us 'the rapture/'caught up' v17 is at 'the Coming of the Lord' v15.

Romulus
Apr 10th 2008, 07:07 PM
Again, avoiding inserting a bunch of external commentary as your paragraph above does; just quoting scripture we find....

I Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that
we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord

It was Paul who said, 'unto the coming of the Lord', not me.

Paul says the same people (himself included) "which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord' are those "which are alive and remain shall be caught up'.

Paul tells us 'the rapture/'caught up' v17 is at 'the Coming of the Lord' v15.


OO...OO..OO....WE...WHICH ARE ALIVE.....:B:B:B:B

Ah Nuts! I am against that wall again.....Forbidden territory.

Oh well. I am quite.......:(


Just kidding David! :)

resbmc
Apr 10th 2008, 07:18 PM
:confused it never says Jesus comes all the way down, we are caught up to him for the marriage supper of the Lamb, to protect us from That Hour. This happens at the last trumpet, 7th trumpet of Rev.11 and foretold in 1 Cor 15:52. But it is kinda cool to see all the different ways people see the word

ScottJohnson
Apr 10th 2008, 08:15 PM
:confused it never says Jesus comes all the way down, we are caught up to him for the marriage supper of the Lamb, to protect us from That Hour. This happens at the last trumpet, 7th trumpet of Rev.11 and foretold in 1 Cor 15:52. But it is kinda cool to see all the different ways people see the word
The implication in Luke 18:8 is that Jesus will come all the way down.

Luk 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2008, 08:58 PM
The implication in Luke 18:8 is that Jesus will come all the way down.

Luk 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?



We know the dead rise first, at the rapture as well.

When is the resurrection of the dead then, and where is Jesus when it occurs?

Job 14:12
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands."
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. "

Isaiah 26:19
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon"

ScottJohnson
Apr 11th 2008, 02:22 AM
We know the dead rise first, at the rapture as well.

When is the resurrection of the dead then, and where is Jesus when it occurs?

Job 14:12
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands."
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. "

Isaiah 26:19
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon"


I don't disagree with you Dave, never the less, Luke 18:8 still implies that Jesus will come all the way to earth at His return.

wpm
Apr 12th 2008, 12:49 AM
To expand a bit on my first answer. The 7 year period known as the tribulation, (rightly or wrongly) is considered a Jewish event. As such, it isn't discussed in the instructions of the NT, other than in Revelation and probably 2 Thes. This much discussed 7 year period is mentioned in the OT, Daniel gives the time frame, and other places expand on it. ie - the time of Jacobs trouble.

Likewise the rapture being a church event would not be discussed in the OT as it doesn't apply to Israel.

Your question seems to want to combine these and from a pre-trib view it's like combining apples and oranges and making a steak. It can't be done.

From what I've read, on an individual basis the pre-trib view agrees with virtually everything you and other end time beliefs say about salvation. We see distinct differences between the corporate entities of the church, the unsaved and Israel. Individually Romans 10:12 applies "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Corporately we don't believe it does.

The ‘Church’ is not a NT phenomenon the word ekklesia -1577 is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX), in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, I Chroniciles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.

Paul

wombat
Apr 22nd 2008, 02:32 AM
Here are some verses that may shed some light on the 7 years issue. While Revelation speaks of 42 months (1260 days or about 3.5 years) during which the outer courtyard of the Temple is turned over to the nations so they trample Jerusalem for that period of time, there is a reference in Daniel 8:10, 12-14, 26 that shows that the Temple and God's angels will be trampled by Satan for 2300 days (about 6.33 years). My theory is that during this 2300 days, the Tribulation is taking place, the rest of the 7 years being the time when Jesus returns to earth to end the battle of Armageddon and destroy the antiChrist. It seems that the 1260 days is the first half of the Tribulation, during which time the antiChrist has a treaty with Israel, and quite possibly the Temple is overseen by an international body of "peacekeepers." Revelation 13:5 says that during the 1260 days, the antiChrist is given authority to do as he pleases. Revelation 12:6 mentions that Israel is "in a wilderness prepared for her by God", seeming to indicate that Israel is at this point in a place of relative safety for 1260 days. Later in Daniel 12:11 it is said that there will be 1290 days (3.53 years or about 43 months) from the time the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up in the Temple. This appears to reference the 2nd half of the Tribulation, starting with the abomination of desolation when antiChrist proclaims himself to be God. Daniel 12:12 also says of this time, "Blessed are those who keep waiting and attain to the 1335 days," which I wonder if it might refer to the setting up of Jesus' Millennial Kingdom. I hope this helps in relation to determining whether there are 7 years in the Tribulation.

resbmc
Apr 24th 2008, 02:14 PM
It is a theory only, you cant prove it definetly, I personnal dont believe in it, it is man made, made up by C. I. Scofield, D. D. in the early 1900's about 1906 and put in the Scofield Reference Bible, that was the beginning of the 7 years tribulation theory, which I believe to be a false doctrine. I believe Danie and John both used days for years in their prophesy. Dan and Rev go hand in hand, John pick up where Danial left off.

Jet
Jul 14th 2008, 07:43 PM
Hi All, I'm new here. I was talking to someone today who insists the period of time the Anti-Christ will be here on earth is either 7 years or 42 months, he didn't know which. I told him no that I had heard Pastor Arnold Murray of the Shepard's Chapel in Gravette, Arkansas say the time had been shortened to 5 months. I had that in my reference material, I believe it's in Revelations but I don't know what chapter and verse. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong here with their answers that I've read but I believe Pastor Murray is right when he says 5 months. I called his ministry and they said they aren't permitted to answer questions, only a Pastor can do it. They said all they could do is take the question and pass it on to be answered when they have their next broadcast. If anyone knows where the scripture is in the Bible please share it with me. God bless all and thanks for your help. Jet ;)

David Taylor
Jul 14th 2008, 07:56 PM
You should stop reading literature from Arnold Murray today, and instead start reading your own bible, and praying for the Holy Spirit to instruct and teach you.

Arnold Murray teaches alot of things that are contrary to sound New Testament Christian doctrine, and misleads alot of folks who aren't aware of his deceptive teachings.

Some of the things Murray teaches that conflict with NT Christianity are:



denial of the Trinity
the serpent seed theory (Satan had sex with Eve to produce wicked demon-spawn offspring hybrids)
Anglo_Saxon racisim
men were pre-existant "little gods"
annhilationism
he himself, is God's lone exclusive endtimes messenger
and more....

Enough for the sincere Christian to avoid, and do as the Bereans did, and test what Murray says against the scriptures, and see the need to avoid his organization.

Jet
Jul 14th 2008, 08:06 PM
:(I find Pastor Murray to be a Bible teaching Pastor. I do read my Bible thank you but unfortunately it doesn't have a Index where I can look up things like how long will the anti-christ be on earth. Someone needs to make up an Index, maybe someone like you could take that on to help us new folks. Please don't write to me again, I won't respond, I don't like your attitude arrogant and condescending attitude.

Clifton
Jul 14th 2008, 10:17 PM
:(I find Pastor Murray to be a Bible teaching Pastor. I do read my Bible thank you but unfortunately it doesn't have a Index where I can look up things like how long will the anti-christ be on earth. Someone needs to make up an Index, maybe someone like you could take that on to help us new folks. Please don't write to me again, I won't respond, I don't like your attitude arrogant and condescending attitude.

That is not true of Mr. Taylor at all.

The issue if "5 Months" seems misapplied to me. There is a bad time of 5 months I think, and that is mentioned in Revelation Chapter 9 - note verses 5 and 10 for the "5 months" issue. The Bible is best read contextually, chapter to chapter, book and book. There are disorders here and there, especially in the Book of Revelation, of which requires going under more than one hood of its engine.

Blessings.

BroRog
Jul 15th 2008, 01:53 AM
The Tribulation is not 7 years. According to Jesus it begins after the destruction of the temple in 70Ad and ends just before he returns. That would make the tribulation just about 1938 years give or take. :)

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2008, 07:30 PM
Daniels 70th Week/7 Year Tribulation

It is presumed to be seven years long.


The tribulation is a time of world wide wrath by God, the likes which we have never seen.

First Half of Tribulation
The antichrist comes onto the world scene in 2 Thess 2:9, Rev 6:2, the world hails him as the Christ (matt 24:23)he confirms a covenant for one 壮even (Daniel 9:27) but does not yet control the world and all its power.

I don稚 think that God will allow 兎very kind of plague as often as they want, unless it is during the time of the appointed wrath.

Rev 11 gives us a clue. The two witnesses are going about their business of God, striking the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want without any harm coming to them. They do this for 17 days short of 3 & ス years. It is also during this time that the holy city is being trampled for 42 months or 3 & ス years.

Second Half of Tribulation
It makes sense that at this point, 'the middle of the seven- Dan 9:27', the antichrist gains world power (Rev 17:13) for 42 months or 3& ス years, (Rev 13:5), at this point and is allowed by God to kill the two witnesses Rev 11:7.

In Rev 17:13 the antichrist gets his power and Rev 13:5 tells us how long it lasts (42 months)
Daniel 7:25 tells us that the saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
It is assumed Time=1 year, Times=2 years, Half a time= 6 months3& ス years or 42 months. This fits nicely into our presumption.


The antichrist will rule the world for 42 months until he is killed by Jesus Christ at the Revelation. Daniel 7:21 tells of the antichrist waging war against the saints and then is forced to lose by Jesus Christ. This also tells the story. Rev 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.


God does kind of indicate a pattern of seven for punishment in scripture.

Leviticus 26:18
" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.

Daniel 4:16
Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.

Leviticus 26:21
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.

Judges 6:1
[ Gideon ] Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites.

Revelation 15:1[ Seven Angels with Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues様ast, because with them God's wrath is completed.




I think that it is safe to say that the tribulation is seven years long.



What do you think??????

With the understanding that Jesus returns at judgment, which according to scripture is after the millennium, and before Jesus returns Satan must first be bound for a thousand years and released when it is finished.

The plagues of God must be poured out on the earth and on those that worship the beast and his image and accept his mark.

Does that mean then that the time Gods wrath begins to be poured out, which finishes at the seventh trumpet, with the final plague of hail, is the same time as the millennium?

Firstfruits

cdo
Jul 17th 2008, 01:10 AM
Hi All, I'm new here. I was talking to someone today who insists the period of time the Anti-Christ will be here on earth is either 7 years or 42 months, he didn't know which. I told him no that I had heard Pastor Arnold Murray of the Shepard's Chapel in Gravette, Arkansas say the time had been shortened to 5 months. I had that in my reference material, I believe it's in Revelations but I don't know what chapter and verse. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong here with their answers that I've read but I believe Pastor Murray is right when he says 5 months. I called his ministry and they said they aren't permitted to answer questions, only a Pastor can do it. They said all they could do is take the question and pass it on to be answered when they have their next broadcast. If anyone knows where the scripture is in the Bible please share it with me. God bless all and thanks for your help. Jet ;)



Hi Jet and welcome,:pp
yes I watch "Shepards Chapel"as well (enjoy it )
In Matthews 23:22...and except those day should be shortened,there should NO flesh be saved;but for the elect sake's those days SHALL be shortened...
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth,neither any green thing,neither any tree;but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads, 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them,but that they should be tormented FIVE months;and their torment was as the torment ,when he striketh a man
Be Blessed in our Lord,
cdo:hug:

Romulus
Jul 17th 2008, 04:26 PM
The Tribulation is not 7 years. According to Jesus it begins after the destruction of the temple in 70Ad and ends just before he returns. That would make the tribulation just about 1938 years give or take. :)

Here is the scripture:

Matthew 24

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— [B]16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

After the Abomination is seen the tribulation was to begin. According to Matthew the warning was given only to Judea. This was not a worldwide event, if it was why did Jesus only tell Judea to flee to the mountains?

According to Luke 21:

Luke 21

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

When was Jerusalem surrounded by armies? It occurred in 67 A.D. when Titus arrived with the armies of Rome within a generation after Jesus spoke the prophecy: The abomination(Rome) arrived and left for no reason giving the people one last time to escape the coming tribulation. They did and escaped to the mountains of Pella. Titus then arrived in February 67 A.D. and began the 3.5 year/42 month tribulation against Jerusalem resulting in the destruction of the temple just as Jesus told would happen.

Matthew 24

32"I tell you the truth, this generation[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2021;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25850b)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Since this was fufilled in 67 A.D. the tribulation happened before Jerusalem was destroyed and the result, was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Just my opinion.

resbmc
Jul 17th 2008, 06:25 PM
Revelation 15:1[ Seven Angels with Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues様ast, because with them God's wrath is completed.
This is talking about the last seven angels, the bowls or vials, after the 7th trumpet, so cant jump to a conclusion that this verse is saying the trib is 7 years. It is after the 7th trumpet, his wrath is poured out.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:43 PM
The 7 years is taken from Daniels prophecy in Daniel 9:24 -27

Daniel is given the 70 weeks prophecy. This is one of the most astounding prophecies in all the bible. 483 prophetic years, or 69 of these "sevens", have been quite literally fulfilled.

There is 1 unfulfilled "week" or more literally "seven". That seven is a 7 year period; the term week can mean 7 years or 7 days was commonly used in that day (see Gen 26:26-29).

Ok, so Daniel 9:27 talks about a week where "he" (Antichrist) will confirm a false covenant with many for one last 7 year period.

Then it says that in the middle of the week, at the 3 1/2 year mark, Antichrist breaks that peace covenant, that catalytic event is called the "abomination that causes desolation" by Daniel and the "Abomination of Desolation" by Jesus in Mt. 24.

The 42 months, 1260 days, time times and half a time - all refer to the second half of the tribulation, a period called by Jesus and John the Great Tribulation. The 42 months that is spoken of in Rev. 13 refers to the time alloted to Antichrist in his reign of terror and persecution of believers and Israel.

Clifton
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:08 PM
The 7 years is taken from Daniels prophecy in Daniel 9:24 -27

Daniel is given the 70 weeks prophecy. This is one of the most astounding prophecies in all the bible. 483 prophetic years, or 69 of these "sevens", have been quite literally fulfilled.

There is 1 unfulfilled "week" or more literally "seven". That seven is a 7 year period; the term week can mean 7 years or 7 days was commonly used in that day (see Gen 26:26-29).

Ok, so Daniel 9:27 talks about a week where "he" (Antichrist) will confirm a false covenant with many for one last 7 year period.

Then it says that in the middle of the week, at the 3 1/2 year mark, Antichrist breaks that peace covenant, that catalytic event is called the "abomination that causes desolation" by Daniel and the "Abomination of Desolation" by Jesus in Mt. 24.

The 42 months, 1260 days, time times and half a time - all refer to the second half of the tribulation, a period called by Jesus and John the Great Tribulation. The 42 months that is spoken of in Rev. 13 refers to the time alloted to Antichrist in his reign of terror and persecution of believers and Israel.

Actually, it is taken from elsewhere, or a lot more than Daniel. ;)

Blessings.

David Taylor
Aug 4th 2008, 06:12 PM
Ok, so Daniel 9:27 talks about a week where "he" (Antichrist) will confirm a false covenant with many for one last 7 year period.


Daniel 9:24-27 is speaking of Messiah the prince who would come and fulfill all those things. Daniel 9:24-27 doens't mention an antichrst. Jesus is the one who was cut-off for the sins of the many during the final 70th week, and who put an end to sacrifice and offering forever.




Then it says that in the middle of the week, at the 3 1/2 year mark, Antichrist breaks that peace covenant

Daniel 9:24-27 never mentions a covenant being broken; nor does Daniel 9:24-27 mention an antichrist. It only mentions the covenant that Jesus would bring in His blood; when He was cut-off in the midst of the 70th week; fulfilling the prophecy of the awaited Messiah.






The 42 months, 1260 days, time times and half a time - all refer to the second half of the tribulation, a period called by Jesus and John the Great Tribulation. The 42 months that is spoken of in Rev. 13 refers to the time alloted to Antichrist in his reign of terror and persecution of believers and Israel.

Revelation mentions nothing in any of its chapters about Israel being terrorized or persecuted by anyone.

Revelation also mentions FIVE 3.5 year periods; totalling seventeen and a half years; (if you added them all together).

Nowhere in Revelation, nor anywhere else in THE ENTIRE New Testament, does it mention a 7 year period. Likewise, nowhere in the ENTIRE Old Testament does it ever mention an endtime 7 year period that preceeds the Glorious Return of the Lord from Heaven.

Not once anywhere in the entire Bible.