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menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 01:17 PM
I wrote some of this on another post, but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted other posters` responses, so here it is again.

I am posting this here, now, because I was the only white person involved...and I am still trying to figure out if this is racial, cultural, or just the dismal state of the world in general. I am still having a hard time accepting, and believing, that people can be this cold-hearted and uncaring...especially under such extreme circumstances as these were...

So please tell me your thoughts, and maybe I can sort all this out in my head and come to some kind of resolution about it all. Thank you in advance.

This is about an incident I witnessed over a year ago...

What happened was this: I was standing at a bus stop in a bad neighborhood, when I saw a stabbing. That certain corner has a lot of drug and prostitution activity. And by 7AM in October, people are already out there, selling their wares:::rolling eyes:::

The stabber was walking down toward the corner, when the other man drove by and saw him, so the driver pulled over and parked and got out of the car and went to the corner, where the two met. Then the stabber pulled out the knife...

There were 20+ people there, standing in assorted groups on those four corners - by a quick glance, I could tell there were at least 5 on each corner. I always have to check these things out - being aware of my environment when I am out, etc.

The guy who got stabbed began walking back to his car, back towards me... when I realized nobody was moving, I put my raincoat and bag down on the bench (not caring at that point if someone stole it or not) and went to help the guy. He was going into shock and had begun peeling his clothes off - a coat and two shirts. Blood was pouring down everywhere - his pants were soaked, it was even into and out of his shoes...

I looked around again - nobody moving, nobody on a cell phone either - so I called 911 on my cell phone, told them what happened and the location, and hung up on them - they were asking me all kinds of questions, but I didn`t stay on the phone.

I was trying to get the man to lie down on the bus bench until help came, but he staggered around in circles, over and over, so I just tried to hold onto him, to keep him from falling. As he turned, I could see 6 definite wounds, I couldn`t count any more - he kept turning in circles...he finally did sit down when his legs gave way on him.

Now while I`m doing this I keep glancing around, because I figured the stabber would either come back and hurt me or stab me too, or come back to finish him off, or someone else would approach us, but no one did. I hoped the police would show up, but they didn`t... the ambulance did.

I couldn`t even think to pray - just "Oh God! Oh God! Help us here!" over and over in my mind... NObody even came near us two, to help...

The ambulance got there in about 15 minutes, and so did another bus, so I grabbed my bag and raincoat and jumped on the bus and rode on to work. I did about 10 surgical scrubs on myself - I just kept feeling that warm, sticky blood running down my hands and arms...and I prayed all day "God, let him live"

After I got to work I called the police, and told them I was the one who called about the stabbing, so they took all my information, and a detective came to see me when I got home that evening, and took my statement.

He said that the stabbing was a drug deal gone bad, and advised me to change my routes and stay off the neighborhood streets for a while, as so many people had seen me - and so had the stabber. So I began catching different buses at different times, on different corners, until I moved from there. And I never have seen the stabber again...

This was on one newscast, on one channel, that evening, for about 15 seconds, and that was all! Now this was an attempted murder if I ever did see one. A stabbing is a stabbing - but this man had so many stab wounds! what else could anybody call it?

The man did live - he had a long surgery, and then some more problems, but the detective called me back two days later and said the man was going to make it... I was SO glad...

But it took me a long time to deal with all that. Nobody came to help. Nobody, even though several people there ( I found out later) knew the man who had gotten stabbed...

Actually, I am still having a hard time. Out of ALL the bystanders, nobody moved... Is this attitude just the state of today`s world? Answers are much appreciated. Thanks.

militarywife
Mar 9th 2008, 01:25 PM
Wow, you know, unfortunately I think it is a state of fear that causes people to not become involved.
Praise God you and the victim lived.:hug:

menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 01:54 PM
Fear of what? The man who was stabbed? the stabber? maybe the police? ( I never thought of THAT!)

This all just seems so... ABNORMAL...for lack of a better word. No reaction to someone in distress...:(

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2008, 03:37 PM
Much of it is the simple fact that now... no one wants to get involved. They know the area too and they know what it was likely about. To get involved in many areas means you're going to likely die or get messed up some way or the other. What they don't understand though... until they do get involved then that is how they will live the rest of their lives. Sadly... many just don't care any longer. The reasons for that are many I suppose... some probably justified.

menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 04:43 PM
ProjectPeter, you seem to understand the psychology behind this. So tell me - is this the mindset of the population - is this the nature of man today, is this the way of the world we now live in? Thanks.

daughter
Mar 9th 2008, 04:58 PM
Hey MenJesus, I understand how you're feeling. This is to do with demonic oppression of neighbourhoods and people's, not race per se. I have seen some horrible things too in my time - but here is one thing I thought I'd share.

In a neighbourhood I lived in several years ago, Toxteth, Liverpool (do a google search to find out about Toxteth riots if you want a flavour of the place) I was waiting for a bus one day, when I saw a little old white lady being attacked on the other side of the duel carriage way. (Her assailant was also white.)

I ran over, and by the time I got there the guy who assaulted her had been grappled to the floor by two Somalian guys who had been waiting to get into a drop in centre. He got up and tried to biff them, but about six other Somalian lads made their way across, and apprehended him, holding him till the police arrived. (I just sat there with my arm around the old lady, who as you can imagine was shaking.)

I wasn't much use to her, and never saw her again. But later that day a police man came to take my statement. When I told him that the men who'd done the citizens arrest had been waiting outside the Somali centre, he said, "I can't spell Somali... Oh, just call them packies."

I was so stunned I couldn't even open my mouth.

Later... six months later, I was talking to one of the Somalian guys. He said, "I just moved here last year. You've got some dirty demons in this neighbourhood, don't you?" I thought he meant in the physical realm. Turned out he meant spiritual.

The old lady lived eight months after her assault. It didn't even make the local paper.

menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 07:18 PM
Oh, my goodness! Well, so demonic oppression is the root cause of some of this stuff going on...that makes perfect sense.

And all I can do is pray, right? :(

daughter
Mar 9th 2008, 07:24 PM
I would say that only prayer will help us against all of this. The Somali guy hadn't been in the UK long enough to be seduced by our demons. But since I've been Christian, I've definitely seen that demons dictate to us how we behave.

You have no idea how sorry I am... I've seen folks turn round and behave utterly irrationally, hysterically and insanely because they WILL not reject their demons.

But they deserve our prayers nontheless.

menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 07:42 PM
Oh my goodness! I used to pray for that neighborhood daily, while I was in it. I will have to add that to my list - I will have to make a list! So many needs, everywhere... :(

You know, I have heard stories re: the oppression here, but I have never given them a lot of thought, or put a lot of stock into them, until now...

Thanks, daughter.

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2008, 11:20 AM
I'd not have a problem saying that there is plenty of demonic activity going on in many places... don't doubt that at all. I'm just the sort that wants to keep it simple too... and much of what it is would be the simple flesh of a lot of folks and that flesh is plain rotten. Think of what Paul said to Timothy... in the last days people will be lovers of money, lovers of themselves and he runs a list of other things that describe this world to a tee. Lot's of folks will say that men have been like this since time began and I suppose there is some truth to that. BUT that being said... the sheer number and percentage of the population that is like this now days far surpasses other times. I suppose all that to simply say... it's just one more of those "signs of the times". :)

moonglow
Mar 10th 2008, 11:43 PM
I wasn't much use to her, and never saw her again. But later that day a police man came to take my statement. When I told him that the men who'd done the citizens arrest had been waiting outside the Somali centre, he said, "I can't spell Somali... Oh, just call them packies."

I was so stunned I couldn't even open my mouth.



Here is me showing my ignorances again...what are Somali centre and why were you stunned the police called them packies? What are packies?

menJesus..

What PP said...sadly alot of people are raised this way and its so common in their neighborhoods they don't think much of stabbings and all..:( Bill Cosby addresses this well...the parents don't care about their children...they instill no good sense or morals in them...they call their own children stupid and dumb and expect nothing but bad from them. They teach them nothing and let the 'streets' teach them instead...so they become no better then animals..marking their territory like animals do and fighting over it and killing for their 'block'...its stupid and really isn't any better then we see in the animals in the wild.

But this is all they know! Drugs are their only escape from the emotional pain they are in..the only 'job' they know how to do...dealing drugs. The parents think teaching their children disciple is beating them. :( They are neglected and abused and grow up angry and hateful...its terrible. I have no doubt spiritual forces are at work also of course. They don't go to help when someone is being attacked because if they do they will be targeted next! They know that, that is why they stand there and do nothing...:( It must be a horrible way to live...and die.

God bless

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 11:48 PM
When I read stories like this I always think back to the days of Noah when violence filled the land. Man's every thought was about violence. It must have been extremely bad because it seems to me, what you saw would have been the norm in his day.

It is a sad day we live in because everyone is scared and afraid to get involved, and probably with good reason.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 11th 2008, 03:21 AM
ProjectPeter, you seem to understand the psychology behind this. So tell me - is this the mindset of the population - is this the nature of man today, is this the way of the world we now live in? Thanks.

It sounds like a group mentality situation. People are less inclined to individual action when they can remain anonymous in a non-descript group. In other words, our society is cowed into inaction out of indifference and or personal fear.

Befaithful
Mar 11th 2008, 03:49 AM
It sounds like you were the good Samaritan. People are afraid to get involved sometimes...I think.


This is a totally different situation but a little example of what I mean. This was back in 1969 thought I would take you back a couple of years.:)
I was walking on a sidewalk just north of downtown dallas, tx. I saw a guy walking toward me. I remember he was wearing sunglasses the point on the sidewalk we were to pass by each other a man was raking his yard only a couple of feet away. As soon as the sunglasses guy was to pass by me, he started attacking me instead. I screamed for help and looked over at the man raking his yard. He never looked toward us or tried to help me. I knew he was afraid. In the meanwhile, I kicked the guy who was assailing me. It broke his grip, then I ran for my life and got away.

Some I think are overcome by fear some are deadened (desensitized) and some do not want to get involved.

By becoming involved you showed great courage. Courage is a character trait from our Lord. It takes courage to stand up for those less fortunate. And to be a good citizen. Courage is not the absence of fear. It is taking action in the face of fear.

Thank you for helping that person I know it was a stretch or a growth experience that was very hard. It sounds like it taught you how many truly act in such a situation. Our hope is in the Lord and Him growning us up in strength of character so others will help and be helped. And some by it will be saved in Christ.:hug:

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 11:10 AM
Thank you all for your replies. Everything I read has given me a little more understanding on this isssue.

ProjectPeter, what you said about the flesh, that makes sense to me. And BrotherMark, what you said really set the bells off... thank you so much! Seeing this as the way of the world in the end-times brings it into perspective for me, and that is what I was searching for... ( I think... ;) ) something that made some kind of sense out of all this.

It traumatized me when it happened, and I`m traumatized now, thinking about it again. I have been at such a loss here, I have really struggled with this, trying to understand why people are the way they are, in circumstances like these... trying to figure out what in the world has happened to people, and why they are so cold...

And I know that racism is always an issue nowadays, and maybe that is part of what has me so undone, here. I could easily believe that if the victim was white, that the others would have turned their backs, but to know that people would not step forward to help even their own "brother", is a lot more than I could even begin to understand...

But the end-times concept makes it all fit perfectly. I just never thought of this kind of behavior being a part of the way of the world in the last days, until now. And the Bible says this is only the beginning of sorrows...

Befaithful, thank you for your post, but what I should do or not do didn`t even seem to be an issue... I didn`t feel a bit courageous, and being a Good Samaritan was the last thing that crossed my mind! I couldn`t even think to pray as I should have, while it was all happening... and I don`t know what I would have done if he had not walked back toward his car, which I was standing near... so I just reacted mostly without thinking about it... I know that I was scared to death that he was going to bleed to death before the ambulance got there... there was so much blood...literally running up out of his tennis shoes and onto the sidewalk...

But I did pray much, later, and in the days and weeks following, and I hope I was not wrong in this - I prayed many times that God was with him through what had happened, and that he had experienced the Presence and the true love of the Lord, in this time of his desperate need, through this white woman stranger`s hands... I was rather late in praying this way, but I like to think that God WAS with him, there and later.

I can see, now, that I was in a potentially explosive, very dangerous situation, in any number of ways, and I still don`t know what to think about that part of it, regarding my own actions. God protected me, for sure, even though I was too stunned to ask for it at the time - as I said, nobody moved, when the ambulance and bus came, no one was any nearer to us than when it all started. And it never crossed my mind, the thought of whether to help him or not...

I do know this much. If I could do it over, I would do it the same way again...

daughter
Mar 11th 2008, 11:20 AM
Here is me showing my ignorances again...what are Somali centre and why were you stunned the police called them packies? What are packies?

menJesus..

What PP said...sadly alot of people are raised this way and its so common in their neighborhoods they don't think much of stabbings and all..:( Bill Cosby addresses this well...the parents don't care about their children...they instill no good sense or morals in them...they call their own children stupid and dumb and expect nothing but bad from them. They teach them nothing and let the 'streets' teach them instead...so they become no better then animals..marking their territory like animals do and fighting over it and killing for their 'block'...its stupid and really isn't any better then we see in the animals in the wild.

But this is all they know! Drugs are their only escape from the emotional pain they are in..the only 'job' they know how to do...dealing drugs. The parents think teaching their children disciple is beating them. :( They are neglected and abused and grow up angry and hateful...its terrible. I have no doubt spiritual forces are at work also of course. They don't go to help when someone is being attacked because if they do they will be targeted next! They know that, that is why they stand there and do nothing...:( It must be a horrible way to live...and die.

God bless
Somalia is a country in Africa, and the Somali Centre is where a lot of expatriates met up in Toxteth. Most of the Somalians I know are Muslim. "Packy" is a racist epithet, usually used against people of a Pakistani background. For a police man to call someone a "packy" has the same impact as calling them a nigger.

moonglow
Mar 11th 2008, 06:33 PM
Somalia is a country in Africa, and the Somali Centre is where a lot of expatriates met up in Toxteth. Most of the Somalians I know are Muslim. "Packy" is a racist epithet, usually used against people of a Pakistani background. For a police man to call someone a "packy" has the same impact as calling them a nigger.

Oh! I see...thanks for explaining that. They have been saying on the news that the UK is getting a huge population of muslims there. I never heard of that word before. That is bad. :(

God bless

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 13th 2008, 01:19 PM
Good morning sister menjesus,

First of all, let me say that I am sorry you had to face this in such a personal way. Violence takes on a whole new meaning when one experiences it.

By stepping in, you DID show courage. Courage is a moral conviction, sister, meaning that we subconsciously stop deciding for self and do the right thing at the time for the greater good. While this memory serves to haunt you, reflect on this, instead: You saved that man's life - he'd have most likely bled out given the lack of action your story relates by anyone lacking the courage you showed. Perhaps God had plans for this man to change his life and seek Him to preach the message in these evil areas he knew as his own, and you, being a faithful servant to our savior, were chosen as God's catalyst to carry out His will.

While we'll probably never know if you were or were not a tool God used, as believers we know that all things work for the greater good. I have zero doubt that in the recount of your life, you will hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant" for your actions, courage, and compassion that day.

As to WHY the masses stand and observe in obvious apathy, I can give you my opinion and that of my experiences and research, but I'm no social expert or demographic psychologist, so do keep in mind that most of this is indeed opinionated speculation.

Here in Phoenix, especially in the worse parts that sound very similar to the area you described, people grow up knowing violence as the norm. It simply doesn't phase them. In and out of jail, always one eye open, always looking over their shoulder, and knowing that they have enemies that would kill them without hesitation given a chance...

People like you and I don't grow up with this indifference as our socio norm. We cannot accept the abhorrent violence people will act with out of retribution or to protect turf, so their apathy becomes our disgust. We outcast these people because their socio circles are uncivilized to us, and they know this - so, naturally, they outcast "us" as well, which feeds that apathy.

It's a shame that we have neighborhoods feeding in to this, but we do. Experiencing them (as you and I both have) is a totally different animal than hearing about them. The plight of the hungry goes without care until one is hungry without recourse themselves. And I'm speaking in very general terms here: Not that you or me would ever not care about the hungry - but you have to be hungry to know why someone would eat from a trash can, an alcoholic to understand the need to drink, and a gang member to understand their world of apathy for other than self and affiliation.

The overall social dismissal of horrors, turning a blind eye and not getting involved, is a social condition called "Genovese syndrome," named after a young girl that was raped and killed in front of hundreds of witnesses that simply closed their windows. It's also known as "The Bystander Effect."

WARNING: The following link, even though it is Wikipedia, does contain some graphic and very disturbing verbiage over the horrors of this incident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese



As for you and me, all we can do is pray and understand that we live in a world given over to the great deceiver who seeks to make us believe that God is impotent or just doesn't care. We know that is not the case, that He loves all and is no respecter of persons, but witnessing acts such as you did clearly proves that Satan is indeed active on this planet. We can do exactly what you did, following prompts from God faithfully with courage, showing His love in the midst of Satan's lies and strife, and leave the rest to God.

You may even consider some PTSD counseling, sister. Have you considered that, miss?

diffangle
Mar 13th 2008, 02:09 PM
Before I read the part of your post that stated that it was a drug deal gone bad and that the people standing around knew the guy, I thought that that may have been the case... another possible explanation for their lack of wanting to help is that the people who live in those areas who don't want drug deals/dealers in their neighborhood may have the attitude of "who cares if a dd gets killed, one less dd we have to deal with".

menJesus
Mar 14th 2008, 12:41 AM
FollowMeInfantry, thank you so much for such a caring, thoughtful post! And thanks for the link - I read it and then opened the hyperlinks (?) and read them, also. Wow!

As for the PTSD, I was diagnosed with "the worst case I ever saw outside a war zone" in 2004, after going through something so unspeakably horrible it nearly killed me... so yes, I know a little bit about all that. ;)

(see "my thumbnail testimony" in the testimonies forum)

I did wonder at the time if perhaps I needed counseling from seeing this, but I never got any- I never had any flashbacks or dreams about it, and because as the time went by and other things happened, I stopped thinking about it altogether, until I read a thread here one day a few weeks ago...

Then it got on my mind again - the human condition, the coldness, the unfeelingness, the uncaring... and so I wound up talking about it here (which was good for me).

I know and understand some about the whole inner-city mentality, the oppression and hopeless of life there, and all that, ( I did live there) but I still just could NOT wrap my mind around why no one would help that man... I think maybe I just could not accept that this was the mentality of the people... that this kind of thing was the real world...

But once Brother Mark explained the end-times way of the world to me, I began to understand it all. I have to believe that what he said is true - I can`t just believe that men are evil just because they ARE... just BECAUSE. I guess what I needed was a reason I could accept, and hold onto, for all this, and now I have it, and I can deal with it all in a much different way.

And I guess I`m crazy, but I still am glad I did what I did... I sure can`t say that I felt the Holy Spirit with me right then - He might have directed me, but I was numb with shock, I think, and didn`t feel much of anything til it was all over. But I know God was with me, or I probably would have been injured or killed.

And I still can`t see that courage you and someone else spoke of - it was his proximity to me and the others` distance, and the man`s terrible distress and condition.

Even so, I hope and pray I never see anything like it again...

menJesus
Mar 14th 2008, 12:43 AM
Before I read the part of your post that stated that it was a drug deal gone bad and that the people standing around knew the guy, I thought that that may have been the case... another possible explanation for their lack of wanting to help is that the people who live in those areas who don't want drug deals/dealers in their neighborhood may have the attitude of "who cares if a dd gets killed, one less dd we have to deal with".

Those people were on that corner, kicking it, waiting for 1 sex and/or 2 drugs. :(

diffangle
Mar 14th 2008, 01:03 AM
Those people were on that corner, kicking it, waiting for 1 sex and/or 2 drugs. :(
Sad world we live in. :cry:

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 14th 2008, 01:07 AM
Sad world we live in. :cry:

It is indeed. I cry when I think of what we defend sometimes. I love this country, but have we become so complacent that God has lost all influence to us?

diffangle
Mar 14th 2008, 01:36 AM
It is indeed. I cry when I think of what we defend sometimes. I love this country, but have we become so complacent that God has lost all influence to us?
It's only gonna get tougher... that's why it's so important for us believer's to be a light in the darkness.

menJesus
Mar 14th 2008, 09:01 AM
It is a sad world, indeed. But is it complacency? I tend to think that we, as mankind, have gotten completely away from knowing and having a relationship with God, and that this is at the root of the problem.

How to remedy it? I have not a clue. I do what little I can, but it is never enough...

Warrior4God
Mar 17th 2008, 12:31 AM
I don't believe that most people don't care about what's going on when they witness violent crime, though I suppose that may apply to some people. I think it's more that many people are just too afraid to get involved. They don't want the situation to come down negatively on them. To them it is too high a price to pay to be helpful, therefore they look and act like they don't notice an incident that is occurring. It will always be that way while we have to live in this fallen world.