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RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 06:09 PM
Early in my Christian walk, I asked this question, Who is Satan? I subsequently put together a small study on my findings, and will share it here in hopes that it will be helpful to others with the same question.
.......

The following will be a brief study of the person of Satan and how he is depicted in the Bible. What is our defense against him? How does knowing who he is and how his plans affect us as Children of God help us to be victorious in our walk?

We begin our study in Genesis. Take some time to read chapters 2 and 3, to get familiar with that story, especially if you have never read it before. We are going to focus in on the first commandment that God gave to humans on earth.



Ge 2:15-17
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Gen 2:15-17
What was the command given by God to Adam?

What was the name of the tree?

How important was this commandment? (note the penalty for disobedience)

Next we will look at how the commandment was broken.

Ge 3:1-7
3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. NKJV


How did the Serpent re-word the command that had been given to Adam?

What changes did Eve make to the command?

Why do you think the serpent was able to convince Eve?

This will do for a starter. I hope that there will be at least a few who will answer the questions. Then we will move to the next lesson.

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 08:02 PM
OK, so people are looking, but not posting. Maybe it is too difficult to do it as a study - I'll change the way I'm doing it. First I'll answer my own questions in the first post.



Gen 2:15-17
What was the command given by God to Adam?

God told Adam that he could eat fruit from any of the trees, except for one particular tree in the middle of the garden.




What was the name of the tree?


This tree was the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.



How important was this commandment? (note the penalty for disobedience)

The penalty for eating the fruit would be death. That means it is a serious offense.



How did the Serpent re-word the command that had been given to Adam?
The serpent said:

Ge 3:1 Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" We notice that God had expressly told Adam that all the trees were available, except for one. Do you see the confusion that the serpent introduced in the way he asked the question?


What changes did Eve make to the command?
Now that Eve is flustered by the confusion introduced by the serpent, notice how she adds to it:Ge 3:2-3
"We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'" NKJV

She knew that the serpent was wrong about not being able to eat from any tree in the garden. But in refuting him, she goes too far, and adds a bit of her own thinking "nor shall you touch it." God's command said nothing about touching, only about eating.



Why do you think the serpent was able to convince Eve?


I think the serpent was able to convince Eve because he started by introducing confusion. Then when she "enhanced" the commandment, it gave him another opening.

Look what he does next!

Ge 3:4-6
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. NKJV

So, now the serpent has defied God's command, calling it a lie and a deception. He goes further to tout the benefits of eating the fruit; she would gain an attribute that God has, of knowing good and evil.

Without further ado, Eve ate some of the fruit, and gave some to Adam who was apparently there ALL THE TIME, and had not spoken up to stop what was happening. He just goes along with it.

Ge 3:6-7
She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. NKJV

With this action, death has now entered into the garden, into the world. Adam and Eve have lost immortality. As you read the rest of the story, you see that they also lost the garden, daily walks with God, easy eating and freedom from pain.

Genesis 2 and 3 clearly establish that the serpent is a troublemaker. He uses subterfuge, deception, lies and manipulation to trip Eve, and to trap her into disobedience of God's single commandment.

menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 08:28 PM
I was always under the impression that Eve was alone with the serpent when she ate the apple. Then Adam came along and she managed to get him to eat of it, too...

But in Genesis 3:7, why why were both their eyes opened at the same time? Eve ate first...she should have seen the truth right then...did the serpent blind her until she had committed Adam, also?

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 08:32 PM
I was always under the impression that Eve was alone with the serpent when she ate the apple. Then Adam came along and she managed to get him to eat of it, too...

But in Genesis 3:7, why why were both their eyes opened at the same time? Eve ate first...she should have seen the truth right then...did the serpent blind her until she had committed Adam, also?

Notice that scripture says "with her". Ge 3:6
She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. NKJV

It only takes a small twisting of the scripture to make it seem that Adam was not there. It has been historically popular to put the blame on Eve. But as we go forward, we are going to see that God looks at things differently from the way that man looks at things.

menJesus
Mar 9th 2008, 08:40 PM
Alright then...so what about Genesis 3:7?

Thank you so much for doing this. :)

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 09:27 PM
Alright then...so what about Genesis 3:7?

Thank you so much for doing this. :)

I just did a response to this, and lost it somehow! Never mind, I'll do it again.

I think from the reading of the text that Adam and Eve were together when the serpent tempted Eve; they ate together and their eyes were opened together. The text of Gen 3:7 does not clarify anything further than this, so I will not attempt to interpret it one way of the other.

It was when I first did this study that it became really clear to me how important it is to handle scripture carefully and properly.

Notice: Satan's first recorded "trick" in the Bible is that he twisted the words that God had clearly spoken to Adam. Then he got Eve to answer him back and she made the mistake of adding to God's word. This gave Satan the chance to "interpret" it to mean something different from what it actually meant.

There is a caution in more than one place in scripture, we are not to add to it, nor take away from it. And we are told that scripture is not subject to "private interpretation". So there are 3 of the biggest problems in today's church, from my viewpoint. You see all of these things being done by so-called scholars, preachers, etc.

The only safe thing is to read the Bible for itself, and to ask the Holy Spirit to help us to understand it.

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 10:13 PM
Before we move away from Genesis 2 & 3, Let's see what else we can learn about this, by looking into the NT.

1 Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. NKJV

This has typically been used to bash women, but think about it. Adam was not deceived. Therefore, he ate knowingly.

I won't try to interpret that, but just suggest that we think carefully about what this means.

Further enlightenment will come on this picture as we look at God's response, and who was held responsible.

The man said, "the woman YOU GAVE ME, gave it to me and I ate it." No defense, no excuse, except that it is "her fault" - or maybe God's fault since God gave him the woman in the first place.

The woman said, "The serpent deceived me and I ate." So she admits that she was deceived.

But notice the pattern of the punishment.

First the serpent, and we won't go into the details of that, I'm sure you've heard a dozen sermons.

Then the woman, establishing the pattern of authority of husband over wife.

Then the man, who "heeded the voice" of his wife, now has to support her by the sweat of his brow, he will have a lifetime of hard work, and will return to the dust at the end of it.

Then we have the first death - God made "tunics of skin" to clothe Adam and Eve.

There is much more to be learned here, and I can not do justice to it. We will move on to the next thing that we can learn about Satan. At this point, what do we know about him?

He is a deceiver, a liar, a trickster, and an enemy of God. He is also the enemy of God's people, which at this time was just Adam and Eve.

The first battle has been fought on planet earth. It is the beginning of a war that continues to this very day, and will find its end only with the final actions described in the book of Revelation.

Athanasius
Mar 9th 2008, 10:21 PM
I was always under the impression that Eve was alone with the serpent when she ate the apple. Then Adam came along and she managed to get him to eat of it, too...

But in Genesis 3:7, why why were both their eyes opened at the same time? Eve ate first...she should have seen the truth right then...did the serpent blind her until she had committed Adam, also?

Eve didn't convince Adam to eat the fruit; Adam made the conscious choice to disobey, knowing what would become of Eve if he didn't follow her--he chose Eve over God.

RoadWarrior
Mar 9th 2008, 10:24 PM
I do have one more comment on the serpent. How do we know that this is Satan?

Rv 12:9
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
NKJV

RoadWarrior
Mar 10th 2008, 03:24 AM
Rv 12:9
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
NKJV

Now that we have looked ahead into Revelation, we see some interesting things about the serpent. He is called the great dragon, the Devil, and Satan. We are reminded that he deceives not only Eve, but the whole world. But the next line is very interesting.

What does it mean that he was cast to the earth? From where was he cast?

For the answer to this, let us look back in the Prophets - Isaiah and Ezekiel who have some verses that are believed to help us understand.

Isa 14:12
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
NKJV

If the scholars are right, and this is the same being, he is also known as Lucifer. And this tells us that he has fallen from heaven, to the ground, i.e., earth. We see another of his characteristics. He weakens the nations.

Is there a clue as to why he was cast out?

Isa 14:13-17
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 "Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'
NKJV

We see more of his character - pride rules! He wants the highest position, above all the stars, above the clouds - he wants to be like the Most High God. He wants to be equal with God!

And yet more of his character - he makes the earth tremble, shakes kingdoms, makes the world as a wilderness, destroys cities, and keeps prisons from which he permits no escape.

In the next post we will consider who he was, before he fell.

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 06:29 PM
Isa 14:12
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations! NKJV

In the previous post, I included this verse. We see that Lucifer was "son of the morning" prior to his fall from heaven. His dwelling place before, was heaven.

The name "Lucifer" is the Hebrew word "halal" which contains the meaning of shining, brightness, clarity.

Ezekiel 28 is addressed to the "king of Tyre" but scholars believe this to be a reference to Lucifer.

Eze 28:12-15
Thus says the Lord God:
"You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
NKJV


Isn't this a beautiful picture? Until ... until in verse 15, "iniquity was found in you."

Isa 14:13-14
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
NKJV

grptinHisHand
Mar 11th 2008, 06:43 PM
Yes, RW, he kept saying 'I will...' He was very self-centered, very arrogant. Still is. He knows that he is doomed because of God's words to him in Gen. 3 NKJV

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

At the time of Christ's death, He fully defeated Satan, didn't He?
But Satan still has powers on this earth - for a limited time, right?
g

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 06:58 PM
I have heard that he was the most beautiful angel in heaven, and that his body was made of musical instruments.

But I never noticed, before, that he was described as a man...

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 07:06 PM
Eve didn't convince Adam to eat the fruit; Adam made the conscious choice to disobey, knowing what would become of Eve if he didn't follow her--he chose Eve over God.

Hi Xel, thanks for the comment. You are right that there doesn't seem to have been any "convincing" on Eve's part, to get Adam to eat the fruit. As for him making a conscious choice to disobey, it seems to have been that way. This is indeed one of the scholarly thoughts as to why Adam did as he did. It's not the only one, however.

I recently heard it suggested that Adam could have prayed for Eve, and her sin could have been forgiven. But these thoughts are "reading between the lines" and might be good guesswork, or they might not.

What we see in scripture is that the serpent addressed Eve, she was persuaded and she ate. She gave to Adam who was with her, and he ate. One might also conjecture that Adam was persuaded, along with Eve, by the serpent, except for the verse in Timothy. Eve was deceived, and Adam was not deceived.

Their eyes were indeed opened to the fact that they were naked. They could see that there was good, and there was evil. Up to that point, they only saw the good. But now they see evil also.

When we take scripture at face value, we are generally left with a lot of mystery, and sometimes more questions than the answers that we receive. I have learned that it is ok to not know everything, to look into what I can know, and seek to obey God in what He is speaking to me.

That is my way, and I realize that the practice of others may vary. Later on we are going to see what value is gained from knowing the simple, umembroidered facts.

So let's get back to Satan, and who he is. We need to know something very important. How can we avoid falling into the kind of trap that Satan sets for us, today? Eve and Adam walked right in to the trap. We can learn something from observing them, and how they responded. Whether by deception (Eve) or conscious choice (Adam) they both were caught in the trap.

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 07:14 PM
Yes, RW, he kept saying 'I will...' He was very self-centered, very arrogant. Still is. He knows that he is doomed because of God's words to him in Gen. 3 NKJV

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.

At the time of Christ's death, He fully defeated Satan, didn't He?
But Satan still has powers on this earth - for a limited time, right?
g

Hi, g, and thanks for that thought.

What you have posted here is the punishment God gave to Satan, and it is also the prophecy of the future. What is important for our study at this point is to realize the importance of what is being said in all of verse 15.

15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.

This is the enmity that exists in the world today. It is the battle that we are all fighting. It is the war that is raging in the heavens and in the earth. Yes, the Seed of the woman (Jesus) will bruise Satan's head, and as Christians we believe that to have happened on the cross. But Satan will bruise the heel of Jesus.

We are all the descendants of Eve, and we have inherited this war. It is not over yet.

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 07:20 PM
I have heard that he was the most beautiful angel in heaven, and that his body was made of musical instruments.

But I never noticed, before, that he was described as a man...

Good observation, menJesus. I am skimming rapidly through these scriptures, and I hope that you will spend time reading them for yourself, and praying, asking God what He wants you to learn in this study.

The things that we can learn about Satan, about Lucifer, are scattered and 'hidden' in the scriptures, and for this reason not many people understand who he is, why he is there, and how to defeat him. The stories are also told in the prophetic voice, which is another complication. We cannot truly understand this with the natural mind, but need to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal God's truths to us.

Now is a good time to stop and pray. I'll be back later with the next part.

divaD
Mar 11th 2008, 07:21 PM
This is the enmity that exists in the world today. It is the battle that we are all fighting. It is the war that is raging in the heavens
and in the earth. Yes, the Seed of the woman (Jesus) will bruise Satan's head, and as Christians we believe that to have
happened on the cross. But Satan will bruise the heel of Jesus.


If Jesus is the seed of the woman, in which I believe to be correct, then who is the seed of the serpent? If the seed of the woman is a person, wouldn't the seed of the serpent also have to be a person? What are your thoughts on that?

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 07:49 PM
If Jesus is the seed of the woman, in which I believe to be correct, then who is the seed of the serpent? If the seed of the woman is a person, wouldn't the seed of the serpent also have to be a person? What are your thoughts on that?

Good question, divaD. I wil not have all the answers to the questions, but I do have some thoughts on this.

Since we have brought out the enmity, and I have stated it is a war that is continuing to this day, it is good to examine this. Who are the combatants, other than Satan and Jesus?

We will get to that shortly.

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 07:57 PM
Good observation, menJesus. I am skimming rapidly through these scriptures, and I hope that you will spend time reading them for yourself, and praying, asking God what He wants you to learn in this study.

The things that we can learn about Satan, about Lucifer, are scattered and 'hidden' in the scriptures, and for this reason not many people understand who he is, why he is there, and how to defeat him. The stories are also told in the prophetic voice, which is another complication. We cannot truly understand this with the natural mind, but need to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal God's truths to us.

Now is a good time to stop and pray. I'll be back later with the next part.

I do read...and read and read... I am very limited as to studying, but I do try...

But when someone like you takes something like this and compacts it, with all the Scriptures together, I can focus so much better, and gain so much more understanding.

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this! :)

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 08:27 PM
No study of the character and purpose of Satan would be complete without looking into the book of Job!

We have seen that Lucifer was "the anointed cherub who covers" and was appointed for beauty, music and to walk to and fro in the fiery stones. Much more can be gleaned from this by cross-referncing and learning more about the jewels, the instruments, and the fiery stones.

But now he has lost that exalted position. He has been cast to the earth, but in reading the book of Job, we see that Satan is not restricted to earth alone.

Job 1:6-7
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." NKJV

What does Satan do while he is on the earth?

1 Pe 5:8-9
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. NKJV

This tells us several things. One, it tells it what Satan (the devil) does on earth. He "seeks someone to devour". Two, it tells us something more about the potential victims - it is us! Three, it gives us a "battle command" - to resist him, steadfast in the faith. Four, it tells us that we are not alone. We are part of a brotherhood. It also gives us some "boot-camp training" in battle preparedness. "Be sober. Be vigilant." In the imagery given, he is like a "roaring lion." If he comes at you as a roaring lion, you can hear him coming and be prepared to defend and protect yourself. If you are drunk or sleeping, you might not hear the roar.

But back to Job. Job is a man who is aware that spiritual danger lurks, and he is a man who is vigilant to sanctify his children, rising early and offering burnt offerings for them, just in case they have sinned and cursed God in their hearts. (read Job 1:1-5)

Now Satan shows up in front of God, along with the Sons of God. This does NOT say that Satan is one of the Sons of God, but that he shows up at the same time that they do. Be careful with the handling of scripture!

If you have never read this story, read it in its entirety, at least through chapter 2. It is a fascinating story. I will touch briefly on a couple of things.

Poiint One, God is the one who calls attention to Job, bragging on him you might say, to Satan. Satan barely acknowledges the good points of Job, protesting instead that Job is good because God is good to him.

Point Two, Satan mentions that God has a hedge about Job. How does Satan know there is a hedge there? We might conclude that he knows about the hedge because he has tried in vain to break through it before.

As the story unfolds, we see that Satan cannot touch that which God has hedged, but if God gives permission, then Satan can do what he will, only to the extent that God has allowed.

Satan gets really busy, "bruising the heel" of Job. But in all of it, Job does not sin, does not curse God, even though he bemoans his suffering.

Then skip to the last chapter (40 chapters later!) in the book, you will see that God restored blessings to Job.

Job 42:12-17
12 Now the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; for he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand yoke of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys. 13 He also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 And he called the name of the first Jemimah, the name of the second Keziah, and the name of the third Keren-Happuch. 15 In all the land were found no women so beautiful as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them an inheritance among their brothers.
16 After this Job lived one hundred and forty years, and saw his children and grandchildren for four generations. 17 So Job died, old and full of days. NKJV

Job indeed did not serve God "for nothing". Satan was right. God rewards those who love Him.

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 08:47 PM
Whew! I had never considered that point 2 before...not in that way. The devil never gives up, does he? He must continually go before God, seeking permission to harm us in some way or another...

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 09:11 PM
Whew! I had never considered that point 2 before...not in that way. The devil never gives up, does he? He must continually go before God, seeking permission to harm us in some way or another...

No, he never gives up. :hug: But just knowing that is part of our "boot-camp training" of being able to deal with him.

I'm not certain that everyone comes equipped with a hedge, that's one of those mysteries I personally wish to know more about. But looking at the story of Job tells me that such a thing exists, and if God has one around me, it can't be penetrated by Satan without God's permission. So if I have one, and Satan strikes a blow, then I can start asking why God has allowed it. There is a great deal in Job that I don't understand, but at least one thing is true, IMO. This was almost a "contest" to prove to Satan that Job was faithful. Satan thought he could tear Job down, but in the end Job won - and therefore God won.

This makes it even more important in my mind that I would be found pleasing in the eyes of God, and that I would be successful in my spiritual battles. If God is pleased with me, I can count on His protection. (I think there are lots of verses throughout scripture that declare this.) If I am successful in my spiritual battles, then that also is pleasing to God.

If it is a test, then the purpose of the test is not to try and make me fail, but so that I would pass - so that I would grow to the next level of spiritual maturity.

At least, that is how I look at it.

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 09:19 PM
I look at the story of Job the same way as you do. But what impressed me so much was that Job loved God and worshipped Him, in spite of going through hell, which he did, through all his losses, etc.

About the hedges? I don`t know either... but I like to think they are there. :)

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 09:46 PM
I look at the story of Job the same way as you do. But what impressed me so much was that Job loved God and worshipped Him, in spite of going through hell, which he did, through all his losses, etc.

About the hedges? I don`t know either... but I like to think they are there. :)

Yes, me too. And it becomes a regular feature in my prayers, that God would establish hedges around the people I love.

The story begins with Job offering sacrifices on a daily basis, early in the morning, on behalf of his children. I tend to think of that as a pattern for a Christian as well. We see something similar in Jesus - rising early to go out alone and pray. Today we don't do burnt offerings, but prayer first thing in the morning is a good way to help ensure that your day will go well. At least, it works for me!

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 09:54 PM
Ezekiel 22:30
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but can we not stand in the gap and make up the hedge for other things? or for people?

As for prayer, I believe our prayers the first thing in the morning is our firstfruits...:)

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 10:16 PM
Ezekiel 22:30
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but can we not stand in the gap and make up the hedge for other things? or for people?

As for prayer, I believe our prayers the first thing in the morning is our firstfruits...:)

I'd have to do some research and study on this, but the first thing I notice is the hedge about Job was put there by God as protection against Satan, and this is referring to a hedge that stops God from destroying the land. So it is a sidetrack. However, this would be a great study project, maybe we can do a thread on it sometime. Hm, wonder what Fenris thinks of this ..

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 10:22 PM
Note to RoadWarrior: see Fenris! ;)

There are different hedges, for different purposes, and yes, it would be good to do a thread on them...

But I will jump back to this thread! :)

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 10:34 PM
As we move on from the story of Job, let us finish with this. Job 41 is said to be an allegorical description of Satan. Here are a couple of excerpts, go and read it all if you have time.

Job 41:1-8
1 "Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook?
Or press down his tongue with a cord?
2 "Can you put a rope in his nose?
Or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 "Will he make many supplications to you?
Or will he speak to you soft words?
4 "Will he make a covenant with you?
Will you take him for a servant forever?
5 "Will you play with him as with a bird?
Or will you bind him for your maidens?
6 "Will the traders bargain over him?
Will they divide him among the merchants?
7 "Can you fill his skin with harpoons,
Or his head with fishing spears?
8 "Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle; you will not do it again!
NASB

Job 41:33-34
3 "Nothing on earth is like him,
One made without fear.
34 "He looks on everything that is high;
He is king over all the sons of pride."
NASB

What a fierce creature! Who can do battle with such an enemy!


Only Jesus. Only God Himself has greater power than Satan.

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 10:48 PM
Well, hmmm...I read this less than a week ago, in a book about the Bible. It explained the leviathon as the great-horned rhinocerous. No wonder I stay confused... :(

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 11:12 PM
Well, hmmm...I read this less than a week ago, in a book about the Bible. It explained the leviathon as the great-horned rhinocerous. No wonder I stay confused... :(

Yes, it is true. Many people write many things about the Bible that they THINK UP to be true. So it is generally safer to just read the Bible itself, let the Bible interpret itself. You will notice that I preface some of my statements with disclaimers like "scholars say" - so there are different ways of looking at things.

My structure of this study is to look at the Bible specifically to see what it is telling us about Satan.

The book of Job has a specific purpose, from what I can see. It starts out by telling about Job, God, and Satan. It ends with those same three persons.

Allegory is a way of putting things that we don't understand, into a framework that helps us to at least glimpse the meaning behind it.

The meaning that I see in Job 41, is that Satan (if it indeed describes him) is very powerful. This lines up quite nicely with the other things we have seen about him in Isaiah and Ezekiel.

Here is another place in scripture that continues the same understanding.

Zec 3:1-5
3 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan,"The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.
4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, "Take away the filthy garments from him." And to him He said, "See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes."
5 And I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head."
So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the Lord stood by. NKJV

This is another passage that is difficult to understand, and has been interpreted in various ways. But one thing is clear. The LORD in verse 2 does not directly rebuke Satan, but says "The LORD rebuke you Satan!"

This one always comes to mind when I hear people saying "Just rebuke Satan and ...."

I don't think any of us are given the authority to rebuke Satan. Only THE LORD is able to rebuke him.

But I had intended to show this text for a different purpose. Look at this one:
3 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.

Again, we see Satan in the presence of God. What is he doing here? Accusing the high priest! It is like a courtroom drama, a trial is going on, and Satan is the prosecuting attorney. Who is the defense attorney? The LORD. Who is the presiding judge or judges? There seem to be two: the Angel of the Lord and the Lord of Hosts.

Another wonderful passage that would be a great sidetrack. ;) But we'll not go off there. Let us look at it for the purpose of this thread, and see what Satan is doing. Our purpose here is to see Satan, to be able to recognize him, to know how he attacks us.

We can also look into this passage to see who it is that helps us. If Joshua the High Priest can be seen as man, as representative of man, then can we see the Angel of the Lord as Jesus? He is the one who states Zec 3:4 Take away the filthy garments from him." And to him He said, "See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes." NKJV

Certainly it fits Jesus. He is the one who died for us that our sins might be forgiven and that we might put off our own efforts to be righteous, and be clothed with His righteousness - His rich robes.

Then, is it possible that the Lord of Hosts is God the Father?
Zec 3:7
7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
'If you will walk in My ways,
And if you will keep My command,
Then you shall also judge My house,
And likewise have charge of My courts;
I will give you places to walk
Among these who stand here. NKJV

Conjecture, perhaps, but an interesting way to look at this passage. In any case, this stands out to me. God removes my iniquity, and clothes me in rich robes. Then He exhorts me to walk in His ways, and keep His commands.

Joshua has not done battle with Satan. He has stood before God, and God has made him clean.

Again, Satan is very powerful, and only the LORD has the authority to rebuke him.

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 11:30 PM
One quick comment: even Michael did not openly rebuke the devil.

"Again, we see Satan in the presence of God. What is he doing here? Accusing the high priest! It is like a courtroom drama, a trial is going on, and Satan is the prosecuting attorney. Who is the defense attorney? The LORD. Who is the presiding judge or judges? There seem to be two: the Angel of the Lord and the Lord of Hosts."

And one quick question: God Himself, and Jesus, were standing with Joshua at this time?
When satan was there accusing him?

RoadWarrior
Mar 11th 2008, 11:49 PM
One quick comment: even Michael did not openly rebuke the devil.

"Again, we see Satan in the presence of God. What is he doing here? Accusing the high priest! It is like a courtroom drama, a trial is going on, and Satan is the prosecuting attorney. Who is the defense attorney? The LORD. Who is the presiding judge or judges? There seem to be two: the Angel of the Lord and the Lord of Hosts."

And one quick question: God Himself, and Jesus, were standing with Joshua at this time?
When satan was there accusing him?

You are right: In Jude we see the same language as we see in Zech 3:2

Jude 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said,"The Lord rebuke you!" NKJV

And to your question, yes, this is how I see it. God is the judge. Satan is the accuser. Jesus is the defender.

I have heard this scenario preached from the pulpit on several occasions, with the key focus being on the fact that Jesus is the one who speaks up for us when Satan accuses us before God. Jesus, the preachers usually say, declares, "I paid for his sins. His sin debt is cleared."

menJesus
Mar 11th 2008, 11:54 PM
Oh dear! Me & my thoughts! Good next thread! ;)

How many times in the Bible have God and Jesus stood together?

How wonderful this is!

RoadWarrior
Mar 12th 2008, 12:10 AM
Oh dear! Me & my thoughts! Good next thread! ;)

How many times in the Bible have God and Jesus stood together?

How wonderful this is!

Oh what a precious thought!

How about this: They are always together. They are One.

menJesus
Mar 12th 2008, 12:35 AM
True, but, I mean - well, you know what I mean! ;)

RoadWarrior
Mar 12th 2008, 01:06 AM
True, but, I mean - well, you know what I mean! ;)

Well, now I do. I just read your testimony! :o What a terrible thing to have happen to you! But how wonderful that through it all you found Jesus. Congratulations on all your growth since that time.

Now, I am really impressed that you remember about Michael saying "The Lord rebuke you!"

Please, feel free to ask me questions, and I apologize if I get too long-winded!

RoadWarrior
Mar 12th 2008, 01:07 AM
Oh dear! Me & my thoughts! Good next thread! ;)

How many times in the Bible have God and Jesus stood together?

How wonderful this is!

Now I'm going to give you a different answer for this one: Start with Genesis, when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image."

menJesus
Mar 12th 2008, 01:27 AM
Well, now I do. I just read your testimony! :o What a terrible thing to have happen to you! But how wonderful that through it all you found Jesus. Congratulations on all your growth since that time.

Now, I am really impressed that you remember about Michael saying "The Lord rebuke you!"

Please, feel free to ask me questions, and I apologize if I get too long-winded!

EVERYthing I retain impresses me! But I am just delighted to be able to say "I know that!"

I used to know a great deal of the Bible, chapter and verse. :( But now its like trying to memorize the entire Encyclopedia Britannica - lol

You are doing fine. I really appreciate this. Thanks again.

RoadWarrior
Mar 12th 2008, 04:10 PM
At this point, it might be good to summarize some of the things we have learned about Satan, and why Christianity has the theology that we have, based on the scriptures we have used to this point.

We have learned that God created Lucifer to be the highest of the angels, the Cherub that Covers, the one who walks to and fro in the fiery coals. We learned that Lucifer was proud and greedy, and that he aspired to something even higher - he wanted to be equal with God. This precipitated his downfall. (Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28)

Having been cast to earth, he used trickery and deceit to tempt Eve and Adam to their own downfall, which affected all of mankind from that day forward. Death entered into the world. (Genesis 2 and 3)

Satan then seems to have had continual access between heaven and earth, and we saw in Job that he cannot touch the one who is hedged about by God, without the permission of God. We also saw a character trait of God, that He rewards those who are faithful to Him in spite of the wiles of Satan. (Job 1 &2; Job 38-42)

We saw that before the throne of God, Satan is the accuser of man, the prosecuting attorney. We saw that even the archangels did not directly rebuke Satan, but called on the LORD to rebuke him. (Zech 3:1-5, Jude 9)

We saw what Satan is doing on the earth in NT times.

"1 Pe 5:8...your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. NKJV

Our next phase of study will be to look at our role and ability to withstand or to fight against the wiles of this "roaring lion" enemy who accuses us before God, who seeks to devour us, who tricks and tempts and deceives us.

In the final phase of the study we will learn the ultimate end of the enemy.

HisLeast
Mar 12th 2008, 09:20 PM
How do we reconcile this idea of Satan being a malicious agent of his own will with the Judaic believe that he is a heavenly agent sent to test us?

Also... how can we be positive Isiah is talking about Satan in a past heavenly battle and not an earthly king?

RoadWarrior
Mar 12th 2008, 11:33 PM
How do we reconcile this idea of Satan being a malicious agent of his own will with the Judaic believe that he is a heavenly agent sent to test us?

Also... how can we be positive Isiah is talking about Satan in a past heavenly battle and not an earthly king?

Thank you for your questions, HisLeast.

Since I do not come from a Jewish background, their belief had not entered my understanding of the scripture, in terms of seeing who Satan is. I am simply reading the scriptures and seeing what they plainly say. I am not comparing this understanding of Satan against other beliefs, even Judaic belief.

The Isaiah passage clearly uses the "I will" expression several times. That Satan is "malicious" - (although I did not use that term) can be also derived from the things that we see him doing. Do you consider his torment of Job to be malicious? Do you see it as being malicious that he seeks to 'devour' human beings?

Both the Isaiah passage and the Ezekiel passage could be interpreted on one level to refer to earthly kings. But the language in each of the passages goes beyond descriptions of normal human beings and into the heavenly or supernatural realm. I think scholars generally agree that prophetic literature can be understood on more than one level at the same time. For example, the messianic prophecies in the OT might not be recognized on the surface as referring to the coming Messiah.

Let us continue with the study and see if the answers to your other questions might become more clear.

RoadWarrior
Mar 13th 2008, 12:26 AM
It is important to understand the very real battleground that exists. In Daniel 10, there are some verses which are enlightening, while still mysterious. Read the entire chapter to put these in context.

Da 10:12-14
12 Then he said to me,"Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. NKJV

Da 10:20-21 20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.) NKJV

I don't know of any other way to understand this other than what is stated. The angelic being who appeared to Daniel in a vision, was delayed in getting there because of a battle in the heavenly realm. The enemies he battled are called princes, and each seems to be the prince over a specific territory. It gives the impression that political divisions on earth are related to political divisions in another realm.

Ephesians 2:2 refers to the "prince of the power of the air" and in these following scriptures are references to the principalities.

Romans 8:38
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, NKJV

Ephesians 3:10
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, NKJV

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. NKJV

Colossians 1:16
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. NKJV

Colossians 2:15
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. NKJV

Again, these may stir up more questions than answers. I cannot give you all the answers, but I am compelled to show you these in order that you might study and pray that the Lord will help you to see.

2 Ki 6:16-18
16 So he answered,"Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. NKJV

All that we are given is a mere glimpse into the heavenlies. Perhaps it is enough. Knowing that there is a battleground with war raging in heaven, and reflected on the earth, should give us pause.

It should make us sit up and ask, "What am I doing here? And what should I be doing instead?"

May the Lord help us to see.

RoadWarrior
Mar 13th 2008, 01:00 AM
Does the previous post make you tremble? Then let us consider what we should do next. We have looked at 1 Peter 5 in part before, now let us look at more of it.

1 Pe 5:6-11
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. NKJV

Notice Peter's exhortation to us, first to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God. When we became Christians, that is the stance we agreed to take. We have agreed that He is God, we are not, and we bow down before Him.

Immediately, Peter reminds us that God cares for us, and that we can bring all our cares to Him. Both of these exhortations are important to the one who would endeavor to resist the enemy, the roaring lion. Other things that he tells us we need are these:

sobriety
vigilance
faithfulness
knowledge that we are not alone
endurance through suffering

These are possible to us because we have the confidence that God calls us to eternal glory through Christ Jesus, and that we have these promises from Him, that He will do this for us:

perfect us
establish us
strengthen us
settle us

Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. NKJV

menJesus
Mar 13th 2008, 03:59 AM
If we could only see as Elisha saw, what a victorious walk we would all have! I fully believe that God protects us, even when we have no awareness of it whatsoever.

RoadWarrior
Mar 13th 2008, 04:49 AM
If we could only see as Elisha saw, what a victorious walk we would all have! I fully believe that God protects us, even when we have no awareness of it whatsoever.

I think so too.

Even Job, although God allowed a certain amount of attacks by Satan, still had the protection of God about his life. And I don't think Job had a clue of what was going on between God and Satan in the heavenlies.

Athanasius
Mar 13th 2008, 05:35 AM
How do we reconcile this idea of Satan being a malicious agent of his own will with the Judaic believe that he is a heavenly agent sent to test us?

Also... how can we be positive Isiah is talking about Satan in a past heavenly battle and not an earthly king?

Jews believe that everything happens, happens because God caused it. Everything. I don't have time at the moment to go into things deeper, but does that make a bit more sense?

HisLeast
Mar 13th 2008, 06:46 PM
Jews believe that everything happens, happens because God caused it. Everything. I don't have time at the moment to go into things deeper, but does that make a bit more sense?

Yes, I understand that. They view satan more as a cosmic prosecutor (but still divine agent) rather than a militant adversary. This is one of the things I'm trying to reconcile right now. Did the Jews have satan wrong all along? Do only some Jews think satan is "the prosecutor / agent"? Do only some Christians view satan as a cosmic rebel / adversary? How do we reconcile this gulf between our thinking and the Orthodox Jewish thinking?

RoadWarrior
Mar 13th 2008, 06:56 PM
Yes, I understand that. They view satan more as a cosmic prosecutor (but still divine agent) rather than a militant adversary. This is one of the things I'm trying to reconcile right now. Did the Jews have satan wrong all along? Do only some Jews think satan is "the prosecutor / agent"? Do only some Christians view satan as a cosmic rebel / adversary? How do we reconcile this gulf between our thinking and the Orthodox Jewish thinking?

This sounds like a good question to ask Fenris. I believe that he is only allowed to post in the Contro thread, so maybe you could start a thread there and ask the question. I would like to know his perspective.

The very reason that I had to do this study for myself a few years ago, was precisely the issue you bring up - people have different ideas about who Satan is. I wanted to know what the Bible had to say. Many religions pick and choose what they want from sources like the Bible, or interpret things to say what they want it to say rather than what it actually says.

From the time that I came to believe that the Bible is really God's word to us, I stopped looking at religions and people for answers. I started to focus on looking into the Bible itself to answer my questions.

The Jews have preserved these writings (the OT) for the whole world, and I am grateful. Whether or not they understood what they were preserving is less important than the fact that they scrupulously copied the texts and protected them. God can still speak to us through the word that has been preserved by the people He chose for that task.

RoadWarrior
Mar 18th 2008, 06:18 PM
I have not forgotten this thread, and I will get back to the last phase soon.

Thanks for your patience!

menJesus
Mar 18th 2008, 08:16 PM
:) I am patiently waiting. Thanks again for all of your hard work on this! :)

RoadWarrior
Mar 18th 2008, 10:33 PM
2 Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, NKJV

When you read the letters of Paul, you get a feeling for what it means to enter into this war, to participate in the battles that are fought on the face of the earth. Paul mentions in this verse (above) that we walk in the flesh - that is, we are human. We are not living in the spirit world, but in the physical, earthly, human world. So it is in that capacity that we are caught up in the battles. But he is quick to say that we are not to do battle on the physical level. The battle is on the spiritual level. So how do we enter that realm, to fight with those weapons?

When David went out to fight the Philistine giant, he said,



1 Sa 17:47 Then all this assembly shall know that the Lord does not save with sword and spear; for the battle is the Lord's, and He will give you into our hands." NKJV



The same expression is used in a great time of distress for Jerusalem, when Jehosaphat was king, and all Jerusalem was crying out to God for deliverance from a great multitude of enemies:



2 Ch 20:15 ...
Thus says the Lord to you:'Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God's. NKJV


I find the same thought in yet a third place, when Hezekiah was king:

2 Ch 32:8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the Lord our God, to help us and to fight our battles." And the people were strengthened by the words of Hezekiah king of Judah. NKJV


In order to fight any kind of spiritual battle, it is helpful to know that the battle really belongs to the Lord. We play a part, what we do can show forth the power of God to onlookers and other participants; but only if we understand that the power is of Him, and not of us.

We have gained an understanding of the enemy, in this study. Now we need to know for sure that we have a Greater One fighting on our side. Or rather that we are fighting on the side of the Greater One. We need to have the assurance that we belong to Jesus, that we are a part of the King's army. Then we know that we will never fight alone, no matter if we feel alone.

This is how we win the battle:



1 Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. NKJV

If you are not certain that you have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, I do not recommend entering this battlefield. But if the Spirit of God dwells in you, then He will fight the battle. You get to participate and to rejoice in the victory.

ChristianKnight
Mar 18th 2008, 10:36 PM
Satan=Lucifer, rebel angel, devil.

RoadWarrior
Mar 19th 2008, 12:30 AM
Satan=Lucifer, rebel angel, devil.


Exactly right CC. Did you learn that in this study, or did you already know it?

ChristianKnight
Mar 19th 2008, 12:51 AM
Exactly right CC. Did you learn that in this study, or did you already know it?

kinda natural.

Lucifer was a angel, second only to god, (not sure about that, micheal?) he rebelled with several angels who are now probably high-command demons, and Micheal the Archangel with the angels of god, fought him into the pit, which is now hell.

RoadWarrior
Mar 19th 2008, 01:08 AM
It may seem kinda natural to you, but that is probably because you heard it from others. If you will read through the thread, CC, you will find the scriptures which spell out these things, and it will give you clarity of why we believe the things that we do.

My purpose in creating this thread is to put the scriptures under the beliefs, so that the foundation is stronger. I hope you will take time to find out which scriptures tell us these things. It will make you a stronger debater and a more powerful witness in time to come.

I'm glad you are here, and I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

HisLeast
Mar 19th 2008, 01:20 AM
kinda natural.

Lucifer was a angel, second only to god, (not sure about that, micheal?) he rebelled with several angels who are now probably high-command demons, and Micheal the Archangel with the angels of god, fought him into the pit, which is now hell.

Where does it say those things in the Word?

ChristianKnight
Mar 19th 2008, 01:25 AM
Where does it say those things in the Word?

I forgot where, but isn't it a story? I mean, thats what I remember reading one time, sorry if a part of its wrong?

HisLeast
Mar 19th 2008, 01:27 AM
I saw a thread on this topic about a year ago... and when I heard people suggest Satan isn't exactly how he's depicted in Sunday school, I thought they were nuts.

When I actually started reading my Bible again, it didn't seem so crazy. Here's the things you have to confront...

1) The passage about Lucifer were talking about an Earthly king. While it could be a metaphor for what happened in heaven, there has to be a better reason than "it fits what we were told in sunday school"
2) Jews (who operate with the same Old Testament) have a much different view of Satan. They view him as an accuser/prosecutor/testor of sorts, but at worst an agent of God.
3) Jesus calls people (including his disciples) Satan.
4) The constant focus on Satan often takes focus away from our own responsibilities to master sin and work for God's kingdom.

Do I think Satan exists? Certainly. But I'm still trying to reconcile what we've been taught to believe with what scripture explicitly states and with what the Jews believe.

ChristianKnight
Mar 19th 2008, 01:32 AM
I see Satan as the opposite of God?

HisLeast
Mar 19th 2008, 01:39 AM
I see Satan as the opposite of God?

Well, that would make it a dualist system wouldn't it? How all powerfull is God if he must contend and put up with Satan?

ChristianKnight
Mar 19th 2008, 01:52 AM
Well, that would make it a dualist system wouldn't it? How all powerfull is God if he must contend and put up with Satan?

I don't know, you tell me?

RoadWarrior
Mar 19th 2008, 02:04 AM
I saw a thread on this topic about a year ago... and when I heard people suggest Satan isn't exactly how he's depicted in Sunday school, I thought they were nuts.

When I actually started reading my Bible again, it didn't seem so crazy. Here's the things you have to confront...

1) The passage about Lucifer were talking about an Earthly king. While it could be a metaphor for what happened in heaven, there has to be a better reason than "it fits what we were told in sunday school"
2) Jews (who operate with the same Old Testament) have a much different view of Satan. They view him as an accuser/prosecutor/testor of sorts, but at worst an agent of God.
3) Jesus calls people (including his disciples) Satan.
4) The constant focus on Satan often takes focus away from our own responsibilities to master sin and work for God's kingdom.

Do I think Satan exists? Certainly. But I'm still trying to reconcile what we've been taught to believe with what scripture explicitly states and with what the Jews believe.

This thread is not intended as a debate thread, but for learning. Please, if you are going to post, read the thread. This will help you to reconcile or correct what you have been taught to believe. The scriptures are in here. Go back and read them. What you have written in this post is highly inaccurate and misleading.

What matters is not "what people say" but "what does the Bible say.

1. It is what the Bible says that matters.
2. We are not Jews, we are Christians.
3. Jesus does NOT call people satan, you are mistaken and incorrectly handling scripture.
4. The purpose of this thread is to get to the point where people can be more effective in dealing with sin that comes from being deceived.

Tanya~
Mar 19th 2008, 02:22 AM
Hi HisLeast,

Satan is a proper noun, but it is also a word that simply means 'adversary.' For this reason, Jesus said this to Peter

Matt 16:23
But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
NKJV

It might better be translated, "Get behind Me, adversary! You are an offense to Me..."

When you check the Greek Interlinear, you will see that "Satan" is not preceded by the definite article. By contrast, in Rev 12:9 and 20:2, "Satan" is preceded by the definite article 'ho' "The Satan," referring to a specific person who is the Devil. While the article in itself isn't proof of anything, I think it does help to show, given the context, that Jesus wasn't suggesting that Peter was possessed by or somehow became Satan. Peter's agenda was adversarial to Jesus' agenda.





1) The passage about Lucifer were talking about an Earthly king. While it could be a metaphor for what happened in heaven, there has to be a better reason than "it fits what we were told in sunday school"

I think Daniel 10 speaks to this. No earthly king ever actually fell from heaven, but Satan did fall from heaven. It is the same with Ezekiel -- no earthly king was in Eden, the garden of God, but Satan was.

Luke 10:18
And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
NKJV

Rev 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
NKJV


2) Jews (who operate with the same Old Testament) have a much different view of Satan. They view him as an accuser/prosecutor/testor of sorts, but at worst an agent of God.While it is helpful to understand what the Jews believe today and what they believed in the past, that can't be what determines the truth for us. Sometimes what the Jews believe/d is not true.

Even in his rebellion, Satan is an agent of God of sorts, because he can do nothing without God's permission.


4) The constant focus on Satan often takes focus away from our own responsibilities to master sin and work for God's kingdom.There are some who seem to be 'focused' on Satan in an unhealthy way. There does have to be balance, but by the same token, it is important to know who the enemy is, so this subject is a necessary one. A thread on Satan though, doesn't necessarily indicate a constant focus on Satan.

HisLeast
Mar 19th 2008, 02:27 AM
What matters is not "what people say" but "what does the Bible say.

1. It is what the Bible says that matters.
2. We are not Jews, we are Christians.
3. Jesus does NOT call people satan, you are mistaken and incorrectly handling scripture.
4. The purpose of this thread is to get to the point where people can be more effective in dealing with sin that comes from being deceived.

I never said "what people say" has any credence in the situation. Yes, it IS what's in the Bible that matters. While we may not be Jews, to believe what we believe about God, we would have been prior to Jesus birth.

Are we as Christians saying that Jesus is fulfillment of Old testament prophecy, or are we saying fulfillment of of Old testament AND a correction of many other doctrines (such as who Satan is). If we like it or not, we DO have to reconcile our idea of Satan with the Jewish one. You'll notice I say "reconcile", not "adopt".

Yes, you did post many scriptures here, and I thank you for that. I just disagree or at least am unsure on some of your conclusions.

RoadWarrior
Mar 19th 2008, 02:35 AM
I never said "what people say" has any credence in the situation. Yes, it IS what's in the Bible that matters. While we may not be Jews, to believe what we believe about God, we would have been prior to Jesus birth.

Are we as Christians saying that Jesus is fulfillment of Old testament prophecy, or are we saying fulfillment of of Old testament AND a correction of many other doctrines (such as who Satan is). If we like it or not, we DO have to reconcile our idea of Satan with the Jewish one. You'll notice I say "reconcile", not "adopt".

Yes, you did post many scriptures here, and I thank you for that. I just disagree or at least am unsure on some of your conclusions.


What is scripture, and what is doctrine? Do you realize that these can be two different things? Notice how many different denominations there are, that are so because their doctrines vary from one another. It is not the doctrines of man that count, it is what God says that counts.

If we had to reconcile our understanding of Satan with the Jewish one, then by that logic we would have to reconcile our understanding of Jesus with the Jewish one. They do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, but we do. If they are confused about the Christ, why do you think they would be right (and us wrong) about Satan?

I'm glad you are aware of the scriptures. Would you like to choose one of the conclusions that you are unsure about, and we can discuss it further? Iron sharpens iron, and if we are both sincere about our search of the Word, the Holy Spirit will surely guide us into truth.

Truth is much more important than "winning an argument", to me.

faithfulfriend
Mar 19th 2008, 02:58 AM
Hope this is what you're looking for. :spin:

Satan is a sinner against God, and the Father of sin:

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Satan is a spirit:

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Satan is a liar:

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Satan is a destroyer:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Satan is a deceiver:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Satan's Character:
Murderer - Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Presumptuous - Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.


Proud - 1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Powerful - Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Wicked - 1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Malignant - Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Deceitful - 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Cruel - Lu 8:29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

Satan opposes God's work:

He hinders the gospel: 1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

He beguiles into sin: 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

He binds: Lu 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

He oppresses: Ac 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

He sifts: Lu 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

He devours: 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

He causes to lie: Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Satan has followers as well

The wicked are....

Are his children: Ac 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Turn aside after him: 1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Do his lusts: Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Are blinded by him: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Are deceived by him: 1Ki 22:21-22 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Are ensnared by him: 2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Shall be punished with him: Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Satan also has opposers:

The saints....

Should resist him: Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Should be armed against him: Ephesians 6:11-17 (Armor of God)

Should watch him: 2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Should not give place to him: Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Last but not least, the good news:

The Lord has promised to bruise him under our feet: Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

We are promised power over him: Lu 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Satans final doom will be: Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.