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Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 12:51 PM
Fearing God?

Are Christians to fear God? Why or why not?

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 12:53 PM
Fearing God?

Are Christians to fear God? Why or why not?

Well . . . yeah . . .

Now, this shouldn't be an ignorant fear. We shouldn't be living in fear that God hates us or that He wants to bring all sorts of bad things upon us. However, we should live in reverance to God with respect to His authority over us and reverance for His position as God.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 01:04 PM
If we are to fear God, what then are we to fear?

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 01:07 PM
"The fear of the Lord is to have sin."

For me, I am scared of those spankings that come with disobedience. Just an FYI, it's interesting to look at places where scripture speaks of fear concerning God and the root Greek word for fear. Also, we need to keep in mind that fear that has torment is not from the Lord.

When Abraham offered Isaac, God was pleased and said to Abraham "Now that I see you fear me..."

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 01:11 PM
Do you think we as Christians, fear God?

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 01:21 PM
Do you think we as Christians, fear God?


And just to clarify, I am under the strong persuasion that we don't, or at least not as we should....


To start the ball, I submit the following...

Job 28:28 "And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
And to depart from evil is understanding.'"

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 01:22 PM
If we are to fear God, what then are we to fear?

I said that in my last post. The fear we are to have is that of reverance to God and respect for Him and His authority. It's just like any father and son relationship. No healthy father/son relationship has a negative fear where the child is trembling with dread just to be near the father, but the child has a reverance for the father because of his position of authority. The child looks up to the father and uses the father as his example for how he is supposed to act. Whenever a child is unruly then the father must discipline the son, and the son must be made aware that their actions are not acceptable. In this the father shows his love for the son, and the son respects/fears his father for it.

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 01:25 PM
Do you think we as Christians, fear God?

The Greek word for fear is "phobia". Do I think most Christians fear God as we should? Probably not. But I have high hopes that the Lord will continue to teach us how to fear him as we grow in Him.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 01:39 PM
Should fear be more than respect, or more than reverence? Doesn’t fear also include consequences?

Luke 23:39,40
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!"
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?


Here we have a criminal set to pay the ultimate price for his sins, yet he was being rebuked by the other criminal for his lack of fear of God and implied further consequence?

I think as Christians, we have lost knowing what, how, and why to fear God, and miss this in our worship and relationship with Him.

Think about your prayer life, about your church life, do we lift up God in holy reverence with fear and trembling along with seeking His mercy, grace and love?


When was the last time we prayed something like Isaiah did as He saw the glory of God...



Isaiah 6:5 Then I said,
"Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."


So I submit for consideration, that we have lost or are losing that we are to rightfully and willingly to fear God, for He is sovereign and controls all things.


For His glory...

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 01:52 PM
Isaiah 6:5 Then I said,
"Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

Should we be crying out saying things like "we're men of unclean lips"?

Are we unclean? Didn't Jesus die so that we would not be unclean? I'm all for preaching humility. However, it needs to be based around true and biblical humility . . . not a false sense of humility.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 02:00 PM
Should we be crying out saying things like "we're men of unclean lips"?

Are we unclean? Didn't Jesus die so that we would not be unclean? I'm all for preaching humilty. However, it needs to be based around true and biblical humilty . . . not a false sense of humility.


Hi VR,

Then let me clarify.... I'm saying we are losing the fear of the Lord in our daily walk..... I say that if we see how big God is and how small we are, we need to see that....

And I certainly think a christian needs to say that they are sinful, that they are dependant on Him, that they need Him to mold and change them, and that they see God as God and themselves as sinners saved by His grace. There is no difference in what Isaiah prayed and in the manner we should pray in part, so yes, we are unclean to a holy and righteous God...

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 02:08 PM
When was the last time you heard someone teach on the fear of the Lord? I think it is a LOT more than reverence.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 02:17 PM
Then let me clarify.... I'm saying we are losing the fear of the Lord in our daily walk..... I say that if we see how big God is and how small we are, we need to see that....

Can you give me some examples on why you see us as "losing the fear of the Lord in our daily walk"?


And I certainly think a christian needs to say that they are sinful

Have I sinned? Sure. However, I'm not sure I like the terminology "sinful" because it kind of implies that this is all we do . . . just going about sinning all the time. That's not true. Or at least it shouldn't be. The Word states that we are free from sin and shouldn't be doing it. Therefore, that says to me that victory over sin should dominate the vast majority of your walk. Now, I will agree that this comes with maturity and growth in the Lord, but a person should progress in this area as they draw closer to the Lord.


that they are dependant on Him,

This is most certainly a requirement . . . I agree.


that they need Him to mold and change them,

No doubt about this one as well.


and that they see God as God and themselves as sinners saved by His grace.

And this is where I see you and I differing. Of course we need to see God as God, and I made this clear in my previous posts. However, I'm no longer just a "sinner saved by grace". That's what I was. The Word declares me now as a saint and a friend of Christ. I'm not just a poor pitiful ol' sinner anymore. That's just a doctrine of defeat, IMO. The wonderful work of Jesus Christ has changed all that.


There is not difference in what Isaiah prayed and in the manner we should pray, so yes, we are unclean to a holy and righteous God...

How are we unclean when we have the Spirit of God now indwelt within us and we have been cleansed from every unholy thing? This is the area where I don't relate to what you're saying, and I view it as false humility because it's not based around sound biblical doctrine. The Word teaches that Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all things unclean. In this we have been set free from sin and we are no longer in bondage to the things of this world. Therefore, why would I approach God with a "I'm just a worthless ol' sinner with unclean lips" sort of mindset when that is not indicative of what the Word says about me. That is the false humility I'm talking about. If it's not based around what the Word says about a born again believer then it's just false humility. Don't we now have access to the throneroom of grace, and can we not approach God now with boldness and confidence? Does the Word not say this also? If we can now approach the throne with boldness and confidence, why do we need to be saying things like, "Oh . . . I'm just a sinner . . . I'm a man of unclean lips . . . I'm not worthy . . . " and so on? That's not exactly bold and confident, wouldn't you agree?

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 02:32 PM
When was the last time you heard someone teach on the fear of the Lord? I think it is a LOT more than reverence.



AMEN if you are saying that this is very important!

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 02:39 PM
Can you give me some examples on why you see us as "losing the fear of the Lord in our daily walk"?



Have I sinned? Sure. However, I'm not sure I like the terminology "sinful" because it kind of implies that this is all we do . . . just going about sinning all the time. That's not true. Or at least it shouldn't be. The Word states that we are free from sin and shouldn't be doing it. Therefore, that says to me that victory over sin should dominate the vast majority of your walk. Now, I will agree that this comes with maturity and growth in the Lord, but a person should progress in this area as they draw closer to the Lord.



This is most certainly a requirement . . . I agree.



No doubt about this one as well.



And this is where I see you and I differing. Of course we need to see God as God, and I made this clear in my previous posts. However, I'm no longer just a "sinner saved by grace". That's what I was. The Word declares me now as a saint and a friend of Christ. I'm not just a poor pitiful ol' sinner anymore. That's just a doctrine of defeat, IMO. The wonderful work of Jesus Christ has changed all that.



How are we unclean when we have the Spirit of God now indwelt within us and we have been cleansed from every unholy thing? This is the area where I don't relate to what you're saying, and I view it as false humility because it's not based around sound biblical doctrine. The Word teaches that Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all things unclean. In this we have been set free from sin and we are no longer in bondage to the things of this world. Therefore, why would I approach God with a "I'm just a worthless ol' sinner with unclean lips" sort of mindset when that is not indicative of what the Word says about me. That is the false humility I'm talking about. If it's not based around what the Word says about a born again believer then it's just false humility. Don't we now have access to the throneroom of grace, and can we not approach God now with boldness and confidence? Does the Word not say this also? If we can now approach the throne with boldness and confidence, why do we need to be saying things like, "Oh . . . I'm just a sinner . . . I'm a man of unclean lips . . . I'm not worthy . . . " and so on? That's not exactly bold and confident, wouldn't you agree?


This topic shouldn't put brothers in Christ at odds VR.... the bottomline is that we are to fear God, yes or no?

If yes, then praise the Lord. If no, I plead with you to reconsider your position. No matter where we are in the faith, one thing stays with us, God is to be holy and righteous and to be feared....and to say anything else is false...


Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

tgallison
Mar 10th 2008, 02:43 PM
And just to clarify, I am under the strong persuasion that we don't, or at least not as we should....


To start the ball, I submit the following...

Job 28:28 "And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
And to depart from evil is understanding.'"

Redeemed by Grace

It is normal for a servant to fear his master.

Is it normal for a son to fear his father?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, but once we have Wisdom we need not fear. Once we have the Son we need not fear. Peace I give you.

terrell

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 02:45 PM
AMEN if you are saying that this is very important!

Oh yea. It's very important. We hear about love and worship. The first place in scripture both of these words are recorded is when Abraham offered Isaac to God. But at the end of that trial, God approved of Abraham's obedience by saying he "feared God". Fear is part of what keeps us from doing wrong. Love is often what motivates us to do right. The two together are awesome and powerful.

Matt 10:28-33
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 "Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 "Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
NASB

NT:5399

NT:5399 phobeo (fob-eh'-o); from NT:5401; to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e. revere:

KJV - be (+sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Another word for fear is this one.

NT:5399

NT:5401 phobos (fob'-os); from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:

KJV - be afraid, exceedingly, fear, terror.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It is used here.

Acts 2:40-47
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

43 And everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
NASB

The KJV translates it this way...

Acts 2:43

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
KJV

It is interesting to see what happens to the church when a proper fear falls on it.

Acts 5:5
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
KJV

After hearing the exchange, why should we NOT fear?

Acts 5:11-12

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
KJV

Look at the works that followed. This is not an uncommon pattern.

Acts 9:31

31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
KJV

Paul, well knowing God said this...
Rom 11:22
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
NASB

God is both kind and severe. Look at another verse that speaks about how Paul felt about God.

1 Cor 2:1-5

2 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. 4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
NASB

We know Paul wasn't afraid of men. He is speaking here about fearing God and was trembling as a result!!!! This is more than awe. He goes on to preach how God knows the heart.

There is much more to the fear of God than we are aware.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 02:47 PM
This topic shouldn't put brothers in Christ at odds VR.... the bottomline is that we are to fear God, yes or no?

Of course! In this we agree totally.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 02:48 PM
Redeemed by Grace

It is normal for a servant to fear his master.

Is it normal for a son to fear his father?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, but once we have Wisdom we need not fear. Once we have the Son we need not fear. Peace I give you.

terrell

I agree that we have no need to fear about life, for God being sovereign controls all things ---yet that does not preclude fearing God....


Show scripture whereas we no longer are to fear God?

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 02:49 PM
Of course! In this we agree totally.



Praise God !

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 02:51 PM
Oh yea. It's very important. We hear about love and worship. The first place in scripture both of these words are recorded is when Abraham offered Isaac to God. But at the end of that trial, God approved of Abraham's obedience by saying he "feared God". Fear is part of what keeps us from doing wrong. Love is often what motivates us to do right. The two together are awesome and powerful.

Matt 10:28-33
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 "Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 "Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
NASB

NT:5399

NT:5399 phobeo (fob-eh'-o); from NT:5401; to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e. revere:

KJV - be (+sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Another word for fear is this one.

NT:5399

NT:5401 phobos (fob'-os); from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:

KJV - be afraid, exceedingly, fear, terror.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It is used here.

Acts 2:40-47
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

43 And everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
NASB

The KJV translates it this way...

Acts 2:43

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
KJV

It is interesting to see what happens to the church when a proper fear falls on it.

Acts 5:5
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
KJV

After hearing the exchange, why should we NOT fear?

Acts 5:11-12

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
KJV

Look at the works that followed. This is not an uncommon pattern.

Acts 9:31

31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
KJV

Paul, well knowing God said this...
Rom 11:22
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
NASB

God is both kind and severe. Look at another verse that speaks about how Paul felt about God.

1 Cor 2:1-5

2 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. 4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
NASB

We know Paul wasn't afraid of men. He is speaking here about fearing God and was trembling as a result!!!! This is more than awe. He goes on to preach how God knows the heart.

There is much more to the fear of God than we are aware.


You bet! God is big...real big!

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 02:58 PM
You bet! God is big...real big!

Having said all that, I balance it with these verses.

Rom 8:15
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
NASB


2 Tim 1:6-7
7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.
NASB

The fear of God is not something that causes torment. Also, the fear we have of him is not one that leads to slavery again. But it is one that causes us to love him and cry out to him "Daddy"! One sure fire sign a man has been delivered of a stronghold is the fear of the Lord that will grip his heart afterwards.

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 02:59 PM
You bet! God is big...real big!

As a friend of mine once told me "No matter how big you think God is, he's bigger". :D

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 03:06 PM
Redeemed by Grace

It is normal for a servant to fear his master.

Is it normal for a son to fear his father?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, but once we have Wisdom we need not fear. Once we have the Son we need not fear. Peace I give you.

terrell



I agree that we have no need to fear about life, for God being sovereign controls all things ---yet that does not preclude fearing God....


Show scripture whereas we no longer are to fear God?


In additional follow-up, consider these responses to your first point...

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

tgallison
Mar 10th 2008, 03:10 PM
I agree that we have no need to fear about life, for God being sovereign controls all things ---yet that does not preclude fearing God....


Show scripture whereas we no longer are to fear God?

At the salvation of Abraham.

Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

terrell

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 03:12 PM
At the salvation of Abraham.

Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

terrell

And yet, later in Abraham's walk, God told him he approved of his fear of him.

Gen 22:11-12
11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12 And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
NASB

There is a proper and an improper fear of God.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 03:14 PM
There is a proper and an improper fear of God.

Exactly. The enemy uses fear as a form of bondage. Godly fear is a blessing.

Souled Out
Mar 10th 2008, 03:42 PM
There is a proper and an improper fear of God.

There definitely is.

16 And we have known and have believed the love which God has in us. God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God in him.

17 By this, love has been perfected with us, that we have confidence in the day of judgment, that as He is, we are also in this world.

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 04:20 PM
Some more spiritual fish food for consideration....

Romans 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;
Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psalm 103:13 Just as a father has compassion on his children,
So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.

Isaiah 66:2 "For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD.
"But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

1 Peter 2:17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

tgallison
Mar 10th 2008, 04:38 PM
Some more spiritual fish food for consideration....

Romans 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;
Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psalm 103:13 Just as a father has compassion on his children,
So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.

Isaiah 66:2 "For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD.
"But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

1 Peter 2:17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Redeemed by Grace

I cannot have peace and be terrified at the same time, but I can have peace and be in awe and respect of God.

terrell

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2008, 04:51 PM
but I can have peace and be in awe and respect of God.

Which is fear . . .

Friend of I AM
Mar 10th 2008, 04:55 PM
I think Love and faith enable us to come before God and inquire of him whatever we're lacking in. If we love God, ideally we want to please him in whatever way possible and being that the spirit intercedes for us, it helps us find the appropriate things to ask for when we come to him in prayer which will please him.

If we need more reverence for God and his authority, we can have faith that the spirit of God working through us will ask God to give us more reverence for him while keeping us from a sinful fear of him, likewise the same can be said of needing to have more Holy love for God as well as oppossed to a worldly one. It's different for each person I guess. The Spirit knows what to ask for, no need to worry. Just cast our burdens upon Christ and he'll direct us on what we should ask for.

In Christ,

Stephen

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 05:04 PM
Some more spiritual fish food for consideration....

Romans 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;
Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psalm 103:13 Just as a father has compassion on his children,
So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.

Isaiah 66:2 "For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD.
"But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

1 Peter 2:17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.



Redeemed by Grace

I cannot have peace and be terrified at the same time, but I can have peace and be in awe and respect of God.

terrell


Which verses are you referencing?

Mograce2U
Mar 10th 2008, 05:37 PM
I wanted to show these passages from Hebrews together:

(Heb 3:11-13 KJV) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) {12} Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. {13} But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

(Heb 9:14 KJV) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

(Heb 10:29-31 KJV) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? {30} For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

(Heb 12:20-26 KJV) [at Mt Sinai]...(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: {21} And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake {22} But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, {23} To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {24} And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {25} See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: {26} Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Awe and reverance can only be had if one knows the God he serves is also his Judge. Because he knows that consequences come from disobedience, he ought to be quick to turn back to the Lord in repentance seeking His mercy. That is the loving relationship which Jesus has made possible for us by reconciling us to the Father. The one who refuses to come however is in danger of experiencing judgment - and this he should be fearful of.

We ought not to be afraid of the chastening of the Lord if we know Him as our loving Father. But the rebellious son who forgets His Father's instruction and thinks he can get away with it, ought to think again. Because if he doesn't know better than that, he soon will!

Friend of I AM
Mar 10th 2008, 07:19 PM
Thought of an interesting question that I figured I might pose to you all...

Is it possible for an individual to fear God simply because they Love God?

I think so. Isaiah 66 references God esteeming those who tremble before him, particularly those who do so out of respect, humility, and reverence for his authority. I've also read scripture where David as well as others have talked about delighting in fear of the Lord, but not being worried about condemnation.

Perhaps some individuals truly fear and tremble before God, because they Love him in addition to having respect for his power and authority. Perhaps this desire to please God as well as to revere him above all things, leads to the final casting away of sin within oneself and fear associated with it, giving one a completely loving relationship with their creator, full of the perfect love/humility/grace in which Christ had for the father. This is a trustworthy saying, and I often times have to meditate on it myself and pray on it during my walk:

1 John 3:2-3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

God bless.

Stephen

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 07:23 PM
There is a fear of the Lord that is empowering. That is a healthy fear of God. Then there is fear that is torment. This tormenting fear may be something like "I can never measure up" or something similar. It is a fear that leaves one feeling like God is a tyrant. This is not the fear of the Lord in scripture.

Said another way, "when one fears God, he will fear nothing else. Don't fear God, and you will fear everything else."

Israel didn't go into the promised land because they feared the giants more than they feared disobeying God. Through fear of death, they were in bondage their whole life.

Friend of I AM
Mar 10th 2008, 08:11 PM
There is a fear of the Lord that is empowering. That is a healthy fear of God. Then there is fear that is torment. This tormenting fear may be something like "I can never measure up" or something similar. It is a fear that leaves one feeling like God is a tyrant. This is not the fear of the Lord in scripture.

Said another way, "when one fears God, he will fear nothing else. Don't fear God, and you will fear everything else."

Israel didn't go into the promised land because they feared the giants more than they feared disobeying God. Through fear of death, they were in bondage their whole life.

I agree fear of the Lord can indeed be empowering, but at the same point - so can loving him. I think that loving him also makes us care very little about empowering ourselves, and care moreso about bringing glory to God just as Christ did - giving all of ourselves for the glory of our creator. Becoming one with Christ, and becoming one with the Father, as Christ is one with the Father - should cast away sin and the fear that comes along with it and keep us in perfect humility before the Father just as Christ is.

If we're one with God, we'll be one in purpose with him as well, thus there is no need to worry about sinning or have fear of the world as God is free from both sin and fear.

In Christ,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Mar 10th 2008, 08:33 PM
I agree fear of the Lord can indeed be empowering, but at the same point - so can loving him. I think that loving him also makes us care very little about empowering ourselves, and care moreso about bringing glory to God just as Christ did - giving all of ourselves for the glory of our creator. Becoming one with Christ, and becoming one with the Father, as Christ is one with the Father - should cast away sin and the fear that comes along with it and keep us in perfect humility before the Father just as Christ is.

If we're one with God, we'll be one in purpose with him as well, thus there is no need to worry about sinning or have fear of the world as God is free from both sin and fear.

In Christ,

Stephen

No one is saying loving God is not important. However, let us not confuse "empowering" with meaning empowering of ourselves! I mean empowering over sin, to glorify God, to conquer the enemy in our lives, etc. This cannot be done without a proper fear of God.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 10th 2008, 08:43 PM
And just to clarify, I am under the strong persuasion that we don't, or at least not as we should....


To start the ball, I submit the following...

Job 28:28 "And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
And to depart from evil is understanding.'"


I'd like to revisit Job 28:28 for a moment as well as related verses...

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments;
His praise endures forever.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;
Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Deuteronomy 6:2 so that you and your son and your grandson might fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged.

Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.


14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Deuteronomy 10:12 "Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul,


Anyone else see the prescription?

ProjectPeter
Mar 11th 2008, 12:32 PM
I'll catch up later but just popping in to say... it is much more than just a respect and awe thing... it is a knee shaking, trembling sort of fear we should have. He's God and we're not. That's my teaser and when I catch up later... I'll jump in more but this post marks my spot! :lol:

Brother Mark
Mar 11th 2008, 12:51 PM
I'll catch up later but just popping in to say... it is much more than just a respect and awe thing... it is a knee shaking, trembling sort of fear we should have. He's God and we're not. That's my teaser and when I catch up later... I'll jump in more but this post marks my spot! :lol:

Yep. respect and awe just falls far short. Paul was trembling when he preached. I look forward to what you have to write.

Friend of I AM
Mar 11th 2008, 01:26 PM
No one is saying loving God is not important. However, let us not confuse "empowering" with meaning empowering of ourselves! I mean empowering over sin, to glorify God, to conquer the enemy in our lives, etc. This cannot be done without a proper fear of God.

Sure, fearing God definitely helps us overcome the enemy and is indeed the beginning of one developing a loving relationship with God, particularly in this world full of sin. But at some point - I think always being afraid of God does inhibit one from having a perfect loving relationship with their creator - and can actually cause one to sin against God.

Though fear of God does give us the ability to conquer, I do think we should focus a bit less over the powers we have over the enemy and wisdom that comes with this fear, but instead rejoice in the fact that our names are written as sons of God within Heaven.

So I don't think a perfect loving relationship with the Father is attained by being constantly in fear of condemnation or constant fear of God's wrath, but I do think that as we are being conformed to the image of Christ - this perfect loving relationship gradually leads us to be in perfect humilty and to stand in awe of God.

Remember - Christ died on the cross out of Love for the Father and for mankind, not out of being afraid. Hopefully as we progress in this spiritual walk with God, we can become perfect imitators of Christ, being perfected in entirety by his Love and completely conformed to his image - and being of one mind, purpose, and action with both Father and Son as Christ prayed for us to be. Always humble in spirit/action, and always putting the Father's will before our own.

God bless In Christ,

Stephen

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 11th 2008, 01:38 PM
I'll catch up later but just popping in to say... it is much more than just a respect and awe thing... it is a knee shaking, trembling sort of fear we should have. He's God and we're not. That's my teaser and when I catch up later... I'll jump in more but this post marks my spot! :lol:

AMEN! .... :)

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 12th 2008, 12:50 PM
I'll catch up later but just popping in to say... it is much more than just a respect and awe thing... it is a knee shaking, trembling sort of fear we should have. He's God and we're not. That's my teaser and when I catch up later... I'll jump in more but this post marks my spot! :lol:



You're keeping me hanging here PP... for it's not very often we are in ferverent agreement.... I want to do a couple more Amens with you... :lol: but alas, you've wondered away from the thread?


Soooo... here's another AMEN, :rofl:

ProjectPeter
Mar 12th 2008, 02:11 PM
You're keeping me hanging here PP... for it's not very often we are in ferverent agreement.... I want to do a couple more Amens with you... :lol: but alas, you've wondered away from the thread?


Soooo... here's another AMEN, :rofl:
Ha! Tis the thing about being an Admin around this place. Now and again there are those days!

When Jesus was talking to the disciples about what folks would accuse them of... I mean afterall if they accuse Jesus of it then it is certain they would accuse His followers... He lets them know there is no reason to fear those folks. He goes far with this and lets them know hey... the worst these guys can do is kill your body and because of that you have nothing at all to fear from them.

Now... human logic says.... Ummmmmmm excuse me Lord? If they can kill me then sounds like I should sure enough fear them. But Jesus said (allow my paraphrase) no... let me tell you whom to fear. You have a message you must preach. You have a life to live for me. These men can kill your body but they can't kill your soul. It's about eternity guys. Let me tell you whom to fear. Fear God.

Here's the actual scripture.

Matthew 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes.
24 ¶"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
25 "It is enough for the disciple that he become as his teacher, and the slave as his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
26 "Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
27 "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Lots of times the use of the word fear could mean reverentual awe or respect. But the fear of God that Jesus is talking to HIS DISCIPLES (that is important) goes deeper than that. The Greek word used there is Phobeo and that word means to plain be frightened... sore afraid... scared... EXCEEDINGLY afraid. In total awe of... in total reverence.

Remember what Paul said in Romans and he's talking to the church folk there. God is both kind and severe. He's God... we're not.

Yes, perfect love cast out fear... no doubt about it. There are all sorts of passages we can post talking about things we shouldn't fear. But God... that isn't one of those things. I think often of all the things God is. All of his varying attributes and let me tell you something... fear of God is a healthy thing because without that fear folks can just get all sort of goofy. That's exactly why we see so much nonsense in churches today. People treat God with a flippant attitude and I'm not going to say they do it intentionally... probably in simple ignorance. But they do so because they have no fear of the creator of all things... God. All holiness... love... justice... grace.... mercy. But there is another side of Him. All wrath... jealousy... vengence. All holy attributes from a Most Holy God. Knowing that.... the phrase "I am but a worm" takes on a totally new meaning.

Reverentual awe and respect... we have that for men. EXCEEDINGLY revered and awe.... that is only God. Any other and it would be your idol.

Now... back to more Admin stuff. I'll be back though. :lol:

Whispering Grace
Mar 12th 2008, 02:16 PM
You're keeping me hanging here PP... for it's not very often we are in ferverent agreement.... I want to do a couple more Amens with you... :lol: but alas, you've wondered away from the thread?


Soooo... here's another AMEN, :rofl:

I'm scared! :eek:

ETA....why am I sensing a rousing chorus of Kumbaya coming? :lol:

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 12th 2008, 02:35 PM
I'm scared! :eek:

ETA....why am I sensing a rousing chorus of Kumbaya coming? :lol:


Don't be scared, just savor the moment and rejoice, and again I say rejoice! :hug:

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 12th 2008, 02:43 PM
Ha! Tis the thing about being an Admin around this place. Now and again there are those days!

When Jesus was talking to the disciples about what folks would accuse them of... I mean afterall if they accuse Jesus of it then it is certain they would accuse His followers... He lets them know there is no reason to fear those folks. He goes far with this and lets them know hey... the worst these guys can do is kill your body and because of that you have nothing at all to fear from them.

Now... human logic says.... Ummmmmmm excuse me Lord? If they can kill me then sounds like I should sure enough fear them. But Jesus said (allow my paraphrase) no... let me tell you whom to fear. You have a message you must preach. You have a life to live for me. These men can kill your body but they can't kill your soul. It's about eternity guys. Let me tell you whom to fear. Fear God.

Here's the actual scripture.

Matthew 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes.
24 ¶"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
25 "It is enough for the disciple that he become as his teacher, and the slave as his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
26 "Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
27 "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Lots of times the use of the word fear could mean reverentual awe or respect. But the fear of God that Jesus is talking to HIS DISCIPLES (that is important) goes deeper than that. The Greek word used there is Phobeo and that word means to plain be frightened... sore afraid... scared... EXCEEDINGLY afraid. In total awe of... in total reverence.

Remember what Paul said in Romans and he's talking to the church folk there. God is both kind and severe. He's God... we're not.

Yes, perfect love cast out fear... no doubt about it. There are all sorts of passages we can post talking about things we shouldn't fear. But God... that isn't one of those things. I think often of all the things God is. All of his varying attributes and let me tell you something... fear of God is a healthy thing because without that fear folks can just get all sort of goofy. That's exactly why we see so much nonsense in churches today. People treat God with a flippant attitude and I'm not going to say they do it intentionally... probably in simple ignorance. But they do so because they have no fear of the creator of all things... God. All holiness... love... justice... grace.... mercy. But there is another side of Him. All wrath... jealousy... vengence. All holy attributes from a Most Holy God. Knowing that.... the phrase "I am but a worm" takes on a totally new meaning.

Reverentual awe and respect... we have that for men. EXCEEDINGLY revered and awe.... that is only God. Any other and it would be your idol.

Now... back to more Admin stuff. I'll be back though. :lol:


Ahhh throwing your authority around again I see :lol:, but I still agree with ya on this subject.... :hug:

Now let's go for two.... LOL.... :rofl: Is it too much to hope for???? Naw.... well maybe.... God only knows, right? :saint:

Catlin
Mar 12th 2008, 02:48 PM
My 11 year old grandson put it in perspective for me. I received an email that had a picture of the earth compared to the other planets in size, the next picture was the sun, the earth and other stars in size, and so on through the galaxy. In the third picture, you couldn't even see the earth, as it was so small compared to the stars. It then said, How big are you? I showed it to my grandson. He studied it for awhile and said, "Wow, I'm that small, and God still knows me and everything about me. He is really awesome!" I believe that that is a type of fear, knowing that God is so great, and yet He still knows us.

Mograce2U
Mar 12th 2008, 05:46 PM
The promise we have been given of life is greater than the fear of death.

Those who have laid hold of the promise no longer need to fear death nor the devil who wields that fear. The promise brings hope to the human heart to live forever rather than dread because of death and the judgment that follows. Those who fear God and hold fast to His promise have the proper understanding of the goodness and severity of God to which the world is clueless because they have not received this hope.

The world is without this hope because they do not know the Giver of life is Jesus, nor that He is to be their judge. Death is fearful to them because they do not know what comes after, so to them death is the end. Yet their fear of death does not cause them to live right in this world. It is only faith in the promise which can do that in a man and a right understanding of Who is the One who has created us and holds our life in His hands.

And because by faith in the promise of God we know where the life giving power is found, we know we can draw near to God and find the help we need when sin or the devil tempt us. Hope in the promise is what leads men to do right because we know what the world will face who scoffs at our hope. The knowledge of the righteousness of Christ is the key to it all!

The man who knows that will never let irreverence be his response, because praise and thanksgiving fills his heart to bring the Father & the Son glory. But those who blaspheme God never thank Him because they are scared to death that what we have to tell them just might be true. Which is why they need to hear about the Hope that we have and the reason for it. Because the promise will dispell their fear, and their hatred of death and of God, when they hear about His goodness and that they can know it too.

Blindness and ignorance are tools the devil uses to bind men in fear and to keep them from coming to Christ, but the goods news of salvation in Jesus will set them free.

Good overcomes evil every time as does Truth overcome lies. That is why our testimony must be accompanied by good works which cannot be spoken against. The world has a self-serving agenda when they do good, but ours is the one which will prevail in the end because true goodness is in it untainted by our sin when we draw near to God. This is what the saints need to lay hold of as they look upon those whom the devil has taken captive and seek the Lord for their salvation. That God would work thru us to bring His righteousness to bear in our lives, that the world might know He exists.

We must pursue them knowing this is what will bring them to a knowledge of God whereby they can respond with belief and repentance. If our lives are lived no differently than theirs, then how can the truth we speak be heard by them? We will instead be a stumble to them and a cause for their blaspheme. The world expects us to be different and judges us by what they see. But God knows and judges our heart.

This is where the fear of God has a right place in the Christian heart who knows that the One who judges us now will chasten and will also bring death. But death is not a fear for the one who has learned to do right - God is. Those who know their rest is in Him will work out their salvation with fear and trembling to lay hold of that place of rest where His works can flow thru us as clean vessels. The desire to keep his vessel clean and his heart free of guile will cause the saint to run quickly to the Lord, as the hope he has in the promise of God is foremost in his mind. Therefore our struggle is not with sin, nor the fear of death, nor of judgment, but with laying hold of faith, because we know that it is faith which pleases God.

This is why Paul says in Phillipians that he strove to lay hold of his hope in the resurrection, because the power to live this life is in that promise of the life that is yet to come. Knowing Christ is therefore the key to life and our pursuit is one of laying hold of Him in all His glory.

(Phil 3:8-11 KJV) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, {9} And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: {10} That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; {11} If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.