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Saved!
Mar 11th 2008, 11:59 PM
I have a question that I am certain has already been answered...so please pardon me asking again.

I have always wondered which was true. When we die, and are saved, are we taken directly, at that moment, to Heaven? Or do we sleep, unaware of anything, until the resurrection?

While I have always been curious about this, it is of even greater importance to me as my father fights a cancerous brain tumor. If he, or any of us die, (and are saved) can we have peace in knowing that when our eyes close for good here on earth they open to view the beauty of Heaven?...or must we realize that we will sleep until resurrection day...unaware of the passing of time?

What say ye?

moonglow
Mar 12th 2008, 12:08 AM
I think we go to Paradise actually...here is a great article from a Christian site that explains it: One Second after death (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2244)

A little from the link:

For example, while fastened to the cross, Jesus told the thief, “Today, you will be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). The word paradise is of Persian derivation, and means a “garden” or “park.” Where was it that Jesus and the thief went on that very day? Certainly not to extinction! Extinction would not be “paradise”! They did not go to the grave together. The thief was not placed in the tomb with Jesus, and the tomb certainly would not be a “paradise.” Nor did Jesus go to heaven, for in John 20:17 after His resurrection, Jesus reassured Mary that He had not yet ascended to the Father. So where is “paradise”? Where did Jesus and the thief go after dying on the cross? Where had Jesus been for those three days between His death and resurrection?

Peter gave the answer to that question in his sermon in Acts 2 when he quoted Psalm 16. Acts 2:27 states that God would not abandon Christ’s soul in hades nor allow Christ to undergo decay. So while Christ’s body was placed in a tomb for three days, Christ’s spirit went to hades. Peter argued that David, who penned the 16th Psalm, was not referring to himself. How do we know? David’s body was still in the tomb (Acts 2:29). David’s spirit was still in the hadean realm because Peter also said that David had not yet ascended into heaven (Acts 2:34). Acts 2, by itself, proves that a person does not go straight to heaven or hell when he dies, and that a person does not become extinct, cease to exist, or pass into a state of unconsciousness at death.

God bless

Saved!
Mar 12th 2008, 12:21 AM
Thank you MoonGlow. That makes a lot of sense to me and is very reassuring. I appreciate you taking the time to share that with me.

moonglow
Mar 12th 2008, 12:36 AM
Thank you MoonGlow. That makes a lot of sense to me and is very reassuring. I appreciate you taking the time to share that with me.

Sure...not everyone will agree with this view of course..but I think its a sound study and explains that difficult question of how could the thief be with Jesus in Paradise when Jesus had not ascended to Heaven yet. It solves the questions of where the comma should or should not be on that one...:lol:

God bless

redeemedbyhim
Mar 12th 2008, 01:28 AM
Do these scriptures say when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord?

II Corth. 5:6,
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.

II Corth. 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Saved!
Mar 12th 2008, 01:50 AM
Got a point redeemedbyHim. I certainly do appreciate that scripture!

I once listened to a radio program of a denomination different from mine that had a different view...the host spoke persuasively about soul sleep and caused me to be a little confused and question what I already believed to be the truth. At the time I didn't feel like my time, or the time of my family members was anywhere close to being up so I tossed the thoughts around a bit...but now the answers matter to me more than I can say.

Thanks for your help!

Roelof
Mar 12th 2008, 11:12 AM
(Acts 2:34). Acts 2, by itself, proves that a person does not go straight to heaven or hell when he dies, and that a person does not become extinct, cease to exist, or pass into a state of unconsciousness at death.



moonglow

I tend to agree with you, what about the very popular book "5 minutes after death" by dr Isak Burger?

Sold Out
Mar 12th 2008, 11:27 AM
Based on the scriptures posted above, and Jesus' parable in Luke 16, our souls go to be with the Lord the moment after death. We then await our resurrected bodies.

BTW...Paradise IS heaven.

moonglow
Mar 12th 2008, 02:58 PM
Based on the scriptures posted above, and Jesus' parable in Luke 16, our souls go to be with the Lord the moment after death. We then await our resurrected bodies.

BTW...Paradise IS heaven.

I don't think so...I used to think that and I tend to use them interchangeably myself...but that verse in the bible where Jesus tells Mary M to not to touch Him as He has not ascended to His Father yet.

John 20:17
“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Yet He was told the thief they would be in Paradise THAT day (three days before when Jesus died on the cross)...Yes our Lord JESUS is with us after death...but I don't think we go to Heaven until after Judgment Day. :hmm:

God bless

moonglow
Mar 12th 2008, 02:59 PM
moonglow

I tend to agree with you, what about the very popular book "5 minutes after death" by dr Isak Burger?

I never heard of it..what is it about?


God bless

Naphal
Mar 13th 2008, 01:26 AM
Based on the scriptures posted above, and Jesus' parable in Luke 16, our souls go to be with the Lord the moment after death. We then await our resurrected bodies.

BTW...Paradise IS heaven.

Yes I definitely agree! Some believe they are two separate places but I do not.

This also confirms that we return to God after dying:


Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

markedward
Mar 13th 2008, 06:09 AM
I have a question that I am certain has already been answered...so please pardon me asking again.

I have always wondered which was true. When we die, and are saved, are we taken directly, at that moment, to Heaven? Or do we sleep, unaware of anything, until the resurrection?"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."

There is no implication of a "pause" in-between death and jugment. God is our judge, and He is in heaven, so once we die, we are immediately taken before Him to be judged, in heaven.

Naphal
Mar 13th 2008, 06:15 AM
"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."

There is no implication of a "pause" in-between death and jugment. God is our judge, and He is in heaven, so once we die, we are immediately taken before Him to be judged, in heaven.

Except the word "immediately" also isn't in that verse, nor is any sense of immediacy. We simply are told a man isn't judged until after he has died and that death comes first. When does the judgement occur? It occurs on the very last day of this age and all are judged both small and great. Only Satan and his angels were judged and punished before the masses are judged.


Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

There is one single day of judgment for all of us.

Hawkins
Mar 13th 2008, 06:47 AM
Sure...not everyone will agree with this view of course..but I think its a sound study and explains that difficult question of how could the thief be with Jesus in Paradise when Jesus had not ascended to Heaven yet. It solves the questions of where the comma should or should not be on that one...:lol:

God bless

You are right, I don't agree fully about your point of view. :lol:

Yet the most important point is, when I am off my body, I will be with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Semi-tortured
Mar 13th 2008, 05:08 PM
Since God is not bound by time, it is possible that we are with the Lord right away and taken to the point in time where we are rezzed. Because there are no time restrictions with God, it's possible that we are rezzed right away and never put in soul sleep. We just die, see Jesus and he brings us forward in time to be judged and rezzed.

Zorgblar
Mar 13th 2008, 05:21 PM
But what about luke 16:20-31?Doesn't that pretty much warp up what happens to you once you die?

Naphal
Mar 13th 2008, 10:43 PM
But what about luke 16:20-31?Doesn't that pretty much warp up what happens to you once you die?

All we see there is a separating. Judgement day is a long time afterwards.

RogerW
Mar 14th 2008, 01:53 AM
I don't think so...I used to think that and I tend to use them interchangeably myself...but that verse in the bible where Jesus tells Mary M to not to touch Him as He has not ascended to His Father yet.

John 20:17
“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Yet He was told the thief they would be in Paradise THAT day (three days before when Jesus died on the cross)...Yes our Lord JESUS is with us after death...but I don't think we go to Heaven until after Judgment Day. :hmm:

God bless

Greetings Moonglow,

Had you ever considered that Christ was simply saying, "Mary I haven't yet ascended to the Father, so instead of clinging to Me, go find My brothers and tell them I am ascending to My Father." Or using the other gospel accounts, there is another way to understand this. In Mark Christ tells the women to tell His disciples and Peter that He would see them in Galilee. So He must have said something like, "Mary, don't cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father, go, and tell My disciples I am ascending to My Father, but before I go I will meet them in Galilee."

Mr 16:7
But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

Lu 24:10
It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

Many Blessings,
RW

Br. Barnabas
Mar 14th 2008, 04:40 PM
As to your question about going to heaven after we die or sleeping until the Resurrection. For the dead what is the difference? When we sleep we do not know that time is passing. When we wake up it is later but we do not feel as if we have been asleep for hours. When we die does it really matter if we sleep or go to heaven, we await the Resurrection in any case. So your question seems to hit at the base matter of how the still living can feel. Since, we the living don't really know what happens to the dead after they die I would say believe whichever makes you feel better.

I would point out though that Samuel after being contacted by the witch at Endor, in 2 Samuel. That he says 'why have you disturbed my rest?' And that in the OT She'ol the abode of the dead, where everyone goes, good or bad, is usually described as a sleepy place. Where people sleep or rest and don't really do much. So that is the argument for the soul sleep. However, if we look at the example of the Saints we see that they are believed to be in heaven. And as others have already pointed out there are other verses that can be used for people going to heaven after they die.

But all this is really not that important you have already hit on the important thing, the Resurrection. That is where we will truly get to be with the Lord. As N.T. Wright says "it is not about 'life after death' but life after 'life after death.'" And "it is all jolly well to talk about going to heaven when we die but realize that this is not the end."

Haldemand
Mar 14th 2008, 04:52 PM
Hmmm...this is interesting. Does this mean that the lost do not go immediately to hell. either way it is a comfort to know that this does not have to be our fate, and we do not have to fear death,

Br. Barnabas
Mar 15th 2008, 04:51 PM
Hmmm...this is interesting. Does this mean that the lost do not go immediately to hell. either way it is a comfort to know that this does not have to be our fate, and we do not have to fear death,

Well if She'ol is hell, ie where Jesus went when he died the Apostles Creed said Hell it has be changed in the last few decades to She'ol, I would say a better understanding. The stories about the Harrowing of Hell stories say that Jesus went down to She'ol and preached the Gospel to the dead and those who believed were allowed to go to heaven.

I would say that following the ideas of the Ancient, 2nd Temple Jews and the 1st and 2nd century Christians that we all die and go to She'ol or we sleep most likely in She'ol. And then as the Book of Revelation talks about on the Day of Judgment everyone is judged and then the person is sent to the new earth or the person is sent into the lake of fire, which is the Second Death.

I being a member of a high church, which is not protestant, believe in some other stuff that I will not discuss here.

bjones
Mar 15th 2008, 07:58 PM
I have a question that I am certain has already been answered...so please pardon me asking again.

I have always wondered which was true. When we die, and are saved, are we taken directly, at that moment, to Heaven? Or do we sleep, unaware of anything, until the resurrection?


If you consider that our existence in 'time' is like a bubble in timeless eternity, then although we leave the 'time' bubble at different times, we arrive simultaneously in eternity.

So from the perspective of time, when one dies, it looks like they have slept until we all meet in eternity. But from the perspective of eternity, we have all arrived simultaneously. From our own perspective, when we die, it looks like we meet him in the air as we pass from time into eternity.

Mograce2U
Mar 16th 2008, 03:34 AM
Whether we ought to think in term of time bubbles or not, we do have Stephen's testimony in Acts 7. He saw Jesus standing on the right of hand of God moments before his death and called out to Him to receive his spirit. Did not Jesus appear to him to do just that?

moonglow
Mar 16th 2008, 09:07 PM
Except the word "immediately" also isn't in that verse, nor is any sense of immediacy. We simply are told a man isn't judged until after he has died and that death comes first. When does the judgement occur? It occurs on the very last day of this age and all are judged both small and great. Only Satan and his angels were judged and punished before the masses are judged.


Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

There is one single day of judgment for all of us.

I agree with this..that is why I don't think we go to Heaven until then...but are in Paradise with Jesus, until judgment day.


Hawkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonglow
Sure...not everyone will agree with this view of course..but I think its a sound study and explains that difficult question of how could the thief be with Jesus in Paradise when Jesus had not ascended to Heaven yet. It solves the questions of where the comma should or should not be on that one...

God bless
You are right, I don't agree fully about your point of view.

Yet the most important point is, when I am off my body, I will be with our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is fine..it can be a complicated topic for sure! Not as clear cut as many thought...especially when you throw the scripture of the thief of the cross in there...lol.

God bless

moonglow
Mar 16th 2008, 09:20 PM
Greetings Moonglow,

Had you ever considered that Christ was simply saying, "Mary I haven't yet ascended to the Father, so instead of clinging to Me, go find My brothers and tell them I am ascending to My Father." Or using the other gospel accounts, there is another way to understand this. In Mark Christ tells the women to tell His disciples and Peter that He would see them in Galilee. So He must have said something like, "Mary, don't cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father, go, and tell My disciples I am ascending to My Father, but before I go I will meet them in Galilee."

Mr 16:7
But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

Lu 24:10
It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

Many Blessings,
RW

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this thread sooner and just now saw your reply. If Jesus just wanted Mary to go tell the others about this...why even bother to say He hadn't yet ascended to His Father yet? The thing I have found in studying His words, and pretty much all of scripture, is no words were meaningless. No words were wasted...none were done in a casual sense but all had some meaning to them. Especially in regards to the things Christ said. So I take this as meaning exactly what He said. We know from other scriptures Jesus descended to Hades (not hell as most bibles have translated it) and hades has two parts to it as is shown in that link I provided. The Paradise side and the not so good side. At the Great White Throne judgment...HADES gives up its dead...that doesn't mean just unbelievers (as in hell) but both sides of Hades gives up its dead for judgment...then hades is cast into the lake of fire because its no longer needed. Judgment has come.

From that link, One Second after Death (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2244):

Peter gave the answer to that question in his sermon in Acts 2 when he quoted Psalm 16. Acts 2:27 states that God would not abandon Christ’s soul in hades nor allow Christ to undergo decay. So while Christ’s body was placed in a tomb for three days, Christ’s spirit went to hades. Peter argued that David, who penned the 16th Psalm, was not referring to himself. How do we know? David’s body was still in the tomb (Acts 2:29). David’s spirit was still in the hadean realm because Peter also said that David had not yet ascended into heaven (Acts 2:34). Acts 2, by itself, proves that a person does not go straight to heaven or hell when he dies, and that a person does not become extinct, cease to exist, or pass into a state of unconsciousness at death.

Jesus previously predicted that His death and entrance into the Hadean realm would not prevent Him from accomplishing His divine purposes. Matthew 16:18 reads: “Upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.” In other words, though He would die on the cross, though His body would be placed in the tomb, and though His spirit would descend into hades, nevertheless, the gates of hades would not prevent Him from coming back out of hades (i.e., resurrection) and then setting up the kingdom a few days later in Acts 2. At that time, Peter and the apostles employed the “keys of the kingdom” (Matthew 16:19) with the help of the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus (Acts 2:33).

It was through Jesus’ death and subsequent departure from hades that Jesus rendered powerless “him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:26,54-57). Jesus’ personal victory over death and the Hadean realm explains why He could declare in Revelation 1:18—I am He who lives; and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death.”

While Jesus, the thief, and Lazarus went to the paradise portion of hades, the rich man went to the unpleasant area which included torment and flame. This is the same region of hades, referred to in 2 Peter 2:4, where angels who sinned were committed by God. The term that Peter used was tartarosas, or Tartarus, and is described as “pits of darkness” where they are “reserved for judgment.” The parallel in Jude 6 speaks of these angels as having abandoned their proper place and having failed to keep their own domain. They are depicted as existing in “everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” This region of the Hadean realm must also be in view in Moses’ allusion to the anger of God which kindles fire that “shall burn to the lowest part of Sheol” (Deuteronomy 32:22)—sheol being a general Hebrew equivalent of the Greek hades.

Notice what will happen to this intermediate receptacle of spirits. In Revelation 20, beginning in verse 11, we are presented with a portrait of the final judgment before the great white throne of God. Everyone who has ever lived will be there. Verse 13 says that “death and hades” will be cast into the lake of fire. That means that hades will be cast into hell. The unseen realm of the dead, where conscious spirits reside until judgment, will have served its purpose, and all people who have ever lived will then be consigned to one of two places: heaven or hell. (actually it should be 'lake of fire'..noted by me, not the article)

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10). “It is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28-29).

God bless

DeafPosttrib
Mar 16th 2008, 11:40 PM
Luke chapter 16 is a clear example of after death. When a rich man died, his soul immediately went down to hell within a second. While his dead body is still in the grave. His soul goes down to hell. While Lazacrus died, his soul immediately went to Abraham's bossom(picture as paradise). When we as Christians die, our souls would be immediate go be present with the Lord in heaven. Same with not saved people, they die, their souls immediately go down to hell, while their dead body are remain in their graves. In John 6:39,40,44, & 54 telling us, all of these bodies shall be resurrection from the graves. I believe both soul and body will be reconcile together. While all lost people' body will be resurrection, their soul and body both will be reconcile together. Then, they will be cast away into lake of fire alive - Rev. 20:11-15. In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

Naphal
Mar 17th 2008, 12:14 AM
I agree with this..that is why I don't think we go to Heaven until then...but are in Paradise with Jesus, until judgment day.



I have a couple questions for you then to help me clarify things a bit:

Where is God, heaven or paradise? (I know in a spiritual sense God is everywhere but I mean God defacto, where he spends time on his throne etc)

Where is the tree of life, heaven or paradise?

What is the place known as the third heaven?

Mograce2U
Mar 17th 2008, 01:37 AM
Only Luke 16 and John 11 mention Lazarus. In Luke, Jesus' story about a beggar named Lazarus is not coincidental, since He clearly says that even if one were raised from the dead, those who would not hear Moses, would not hear him either. And we know that those men are the same ones John mentions wanted to kill Lazarus too. There are several instances where the dead were raised in the NT, some before the cross by Jesus, but also afterwards by the apostles. And there is also that curious passage in John when dead men came to life and entered into the city of Jerusalem at Jesus' resurrection.

So we see that Jesus already had the power of God to raise the dead and this was part of His testimony that He was the Messiah.

So what is especially curious to me is that we still think it an incredible thing that He may have already raised the dead and is continuing to do so since His ascension. If this was part of His testimony even before the cross, then why do we think He has not done what He came to do since He proved that He could? Why do we think that He must return to the earth to do what He clearly was able to do when He came the first time?

And why go and preach the gospel to the OT souls in Hades except to tell them that the grace they were waiting for had arrived? (Heb 11) We are not the ones waiting for the grace the prophets spoke was to come - they were.

But most of all, why did Jesus tell Martha - before He raised Lazarus back to earthly life this:

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
{26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

It is the dead who would to be raised v25, and yet Lazarus was to be part of those in v26 - those who are living and believe. Which seems to me to be the reason those souls came to life at His resurrection. So they could be like us and never die or wait in Hades for the resurrection. Which in Rev. seems to be in accordance with the vision John had of heaven. Where all the NT saints are given robes to wear as they arrive there.

Did not Paul say that his hope was to be clothed with his house waiting for him in heaven? And that he did not expect to spend any time without such a house. The same "mansion" which in John 14, Jesus said He was going to prepare for us?

There are too many clues that indicate to me that this is our hope already. That we will be passed from death to life and be given a new body at that time and not sometime off in the far future. If bodiless souls can come into heaven, then why did the OT saints have to wait in Hades for the grace we were to be given? My guess is because bodiless souls do not enter into heaven, only glorified ones that have been made ready to see the glory of God in Jesus. It is those souls who will never be naked that are given robes to wear in Rev.

Maybe I am the only one who thinks about these things.

moonglow
Mar 17th 2008, 02:58 AM
I have a couple questions for you then to help me clarify things a bit:

Where is God, heaven or paradise? (I know in a spiritual sense God is everywhere but I mean God defacto, where he spends time on his throne etc)

Where is the tree of life, heaven or paradise?

What is the place known as the third heaven?

God is everywhere yes. but the bible tells us where He sits which is in the third Heaven by the way (first Heaven, biblically speaking, is the sky, second Heaven is space, third Heaven is where God is at).

Remember the Lord's pray...what Jesus taught us to pray..

Our Father...who art in Heaven...

Also ...

Mark 16

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

On the tree of life...

Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

Later after Hade is done away with we see the tree here:

Revelation 22:2

2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This is after the New Heaven and earth:

Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

I will check tomorrow but I suspect this is more symbolic then anything...all of us saved people have already eaten from the tree of life..;)

God bless

Naphal
Mar 17th 2008, 03:01 AM
God is everywhere yes. but the bible tells us where He sits which is in the third Heaven by the way (first Heaven, biblically speaking, is the sky, second Heaven is space, third Heaven is where God is at).

Good, then you should enjoy this:

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Here an unnamed man is caught up to paradise however we are told two verses earlier that this is the third heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

This means that paradise is the same as the third heaven.


I agree with this..that is why I don't think we go to Heaven until then...but are in Paradise with Jesus, until judgment day.

So, we are in heaven/paradise when we die.

The funny thing is that everyone appears to leave heaven and comes to the earth for judgement day and even the Holy city descends from heaven to the earth and within that city God establishes his throne for eternity and this is where everyone remains.

moonglow
Mar 17th 2008, 03:14 AM
Only Luke 16 and John 11 mention Lazarus. In Luke, Jesus' story about a beggar named Lazarus is not coincidental, since He clearly says that even if one were raised from the dead, those who would not hear Moses, would not hear him either. And we know that those men are the same ones John mentions wanted to kill Lazarus too. There are several instances where the dead were raised in the NT, some before the cross by Jesus, but also afterwards by the apostles. And there is also that curious passage in John when dead men came to life and entered into the city of Jerusalem at Jesus' resurrection.

So we see that Jesus already had the power of God to raise the dead and this was part of His testimony that He was the Messiah.

So what is especially curious to me is that we still think it an incredible thing that He may have already raised the dead and is continuing to do so since His ascension. If this was part of His testimony even before the cross, then why do we think He has not done what He came to do since He proved that He could? Why do we think that He must return to the earth to do what He clearly was able to do when He came the first time?

And why go and preach the gospel to the OT souls in Hades except to tell them that the grace they were waiting for had arrived? (Heb 11) We are not the ones waiting for the grace the prophets spoke was to come - they were.

But most of all, why did Jesus tell Martha - before He raised Lazarus back to earthly life this:

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
{26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

It is the dead who would to be raised v25, and yet Lazarus was to be part of those in v26 - those who are living and believe. Which seems to me to be the reason those souls came to life at His resurrection. So they could be like us and never die or wait in Hades for the resurrection. Which in Rev. seems to be in accordance with the vision John had of heaven. Where all the NT saints are given robes to wear as they arrive there.

Did not Paul say that his hope was to be clothed with his house waiting for him in heaven? And that he did not expect to spend any time without such a house. The same "mansion" which in John 14, Jesus said He was going to prepare for us?

There are too many clues that indicate to me that this is our hope already. That we will be passed from death to life and be given a new body at that time and not sometime off in the far future. If bodiless souls can come into heaven, then why did the OT saints have to wait in Hades for the grace we were to be given? My guess is because bodiless souls do not enter into heaven, only glorified ones that have been made ready to see the glory of God in Jesus. It is those souls who will never be naked that are given robes to wear in Rev.

Maybe I am the only one who thinks about these things.

It took me a couple of times reading your posts to get understand your thoughts here (I am tired so forgive me if I am wrong). The coming resurrection of all I don't believe has happened yet...the first evidence of this is the fact Paul and the others are still waiting for it to happen as a future thing...and this is long after Jesus ascended to Heaven.

1 Corinthians 15

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

Now we know Paul was killed for his beliefs and this hasn't happened yet.

And Paul doesn't say we get our new bodies right away..right after we physically die.

2 Corinthians 5
Assurance of the Resurrection

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

He further goes on to explain in more detail about these new bodies..

1 Corinthians 15

42 It is the same way for the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies, which die and decay, will be different when they are resurrected, for they will never die. 43 Our bodies now disappoint us, but when they are raised, they will be full of glory. They are weak now, but when they are raised, they will be full of power. 44 They are natural human bodies now, but when they are raised, they will be spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, so also there are spiritual bodies.

45 The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What came first was the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Every human being has an earthly body just like Adam's, but our heavenly bodies will be just like Christ's. 49 Just as we are now like Adam, the man of the earth, so we will someday be like Christ, the man from heaven.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These perishable bodies of ours are not able to live forever.

The scriptures on the Great White Throne judgment tell us everyone will be judged...the dead and living will be caught up for the final resurrection...the first resurrection is spiritual...we are 'dead in our sins' until we are born again...spiritually we are resurrected...brought back from death. That is the first resurrection. David in the OT has an interesting take on this:

Psalm 30:3
O LORD, You brought my soul up from the grave;You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Anyway I better stop here...getting too sleepy. Interesting post you have here ..:)

God bless

brakelite
Mar 18th 2008, 08:17 AM
Sure...not everyone will agree with this view of course..
You are right, and I'm one of them.;) and here's why.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


In this verse it states that the tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


We see here that the the tree of life is where the throne of God is, therefore paradise is where the throne of God is.
Therefore if Jesus had gone to paradise that Friday afternoon, He would most certainly, according to scripture, been in the presence of the Father. But Jesus, as you are well aware, told Mary Magdelene that He had not yet ascended to the Father!
We are therefore in the very awkward position of deciding which statement is correct. The one He made to the thief, or the one He made to Mary. Jesus of course did not contradict Himself.

Sorry Moonglow, but it does all come down to that misplaced comma after all.
:hmm:

Zorgblar
Mar 18th 2008, 08:36 AM
I am not trying to sound mean or cute when i say this but you want to know if we go right to heaven or hell when we die right?Well there is a VERY easy way to do that!You actually have to die first!

moonglow
Mar 18th 2008, 01:48 PM
.
You are right, and I'm one of them.;) and here's why.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


In this verse it states that the tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


We see here that the the tree of life is where the throne of God is, therefore paradise is where the throne of God is.
Therefore if Jesus had gone to paradise that Friday afternoon, He would most certainly, according to scripture, been in the presence of the Father. But Jesus, as you are well aware, told Mary Magdelene that He had not yet ascended to the Father!
We are therefore in the very awkward position of deciding which statement is correct. The one He made to the thief, or the one He made to Mary. Jesus of course did not contradict Himself.

Sorry Moonglow, but it does all come down to that misplaced comma after all.
:hmm:

Sorry I don't agree with what you are saying here. Saying the tree is in the Paradise of God doesn't mean God's throne is there. It doesn't say a thing about His throne being there actually...only says Paradise belongs to Him.

And Revelation 22 is after some big changes as I posted before:

Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

followed by Rev 22...

2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This is all after the Great White Throne judgment...Hades (holding on one side the unbelievers and the other side Paradise with the believers in it) is no longer needed and cast into the lake of fire as everyone will be judged.

Revelation 20

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


This is from Adam Clark's bible commentary:
Verse 12. The dead, small and great
All ranks, degrees, and conditions of men. This description seems to refer to Daniel 7:9,10.

And the books were opened
See Daniel 12:1. "Rab. Jehuda said: All the actions of men, whether good or bad, are written in a book, and of all they shall give account."-Sohar Gen., fol. 79, col. 298. "How careful should men be to shun vice, and to act uprightly before the holy blessed God, seeing there are so many which go throughout the earth, see the works of men, testify of them, and write them in a book!"-Ibid., fol. 105, col. 417.

The books mentioned here were the books of the living and the dead, or the book of life and the book of death: that is, the account of the good and evil actions of men; the former leading to life, the latter to death. St. John evidently alludes here to Daniel 7:10, on which the rabbinical account of the books appears to be founded. The expressions are figurative in both.

According to their works.
And according to their faith also, for their works would be the proof whether their faith were true or false; but faith exclusively could be no rule in such a procedure.

Verse 13. The sea gave up the dead
Those who had been drowned in it, and those millions slain in naval contests, who had no other grave.

And death
All who died by any kind of disease. Death is here personified, and represented as a keeper of defunct human beings; probably no more than earth or the grave is meant, as properly belonging to the empire of death.

And hell
αιδης, Hades, the place of separate spirits. The sea and death have the bodies of all human beings; hades has their spirits. That they may be judged, and punished or rewarded according to their works, their bodies and souls must be reunited; hades, therefore, gives up the spirits; and the sea and the earth give up the bodies.

Verse 14. And death and hell were cast into the lake
Death himself is now abolished, and the place for separate spirits no longer needful. All dead bodies and separated souls being rejoined, and no more separation of bodies and souls by death to take place, consequently the existence of these things is no farther necessary.


I wanted to post what Coffman bible commentary has listed as to all the different types of books that are opened as its very interesting but the website is down. :( maybe later.

The way I understand it (which yes I realize as I learn my understanding may change) is few or none are going straight to Heaven...they can't until they are judged...there is nothing there saying we are judged as soon as we die then one goes to Heaven or hell. We are all brought together in the great resurrection at once and then each one judged to go on to 'life' or the final death.

Now being in Paradise is nearly as good as being in Heaven..I don't sit think are sitting around in a state of waiting, nor are they sleeping ..they are with Jesus and I image keeping very busy. :)

Just my take on things...

God bless

Naphal
Mar 18th 2008, 10:19 PM
Now being in Paradise is nearly as good as being in Heaven..

It's exactly the same place according to scripture. It's merely two names just like Jesus has many names and titles.


2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The third heaven is the abode of God and it is also called Paradise. Same place.

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 02:42 AM
It's exactly the same place according to scripture. It's merely two names just like Jesus has many names and titles.


2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The third heaven is the abode of God and it is also called Paradise. Same place.

No I don't think so...there are too many other scriptures suggesting and actually showing these are two separate places. Consider this, Paul was a Jew...in reading on Adam Clark's bible commentary he explains the Jews held certain beliefs about both Heaven and paradise. The Jews believed there were seven Heaven's...and four different Paradises.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=012

1. The YELUM, or curtain, -" Which in the morning is folded up, and in the evening stretched out." Isaiah 40:22: He stretcheth out the heavens as a CURTAIN, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.

2. The firmament, or EXPANSE, "In which the sun, moon, stars, and constellations are fixed." Genesis 1:17: And God placed them in the FIRMAMENT of heaven.

3. The CLOUDS, or AETHER, "Where the mill-stones are which grind the manna for the righteous." Psalms 78:23, Though he had commended the CLOUDS from above, and opened the doors of heaven, and had rained down manna,

4. The HABITATION, "Where Jerusalem, and the temple, and the altar, were constructed and where Michael the great prince stands and offers sacrifices." 1 Kings 8:13: I have surely built thee a HOUSE TO DWELL IN, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever. "But where is heaven so called?" Answer: In Isaiah 63:15: Look down from HEAVEN, and behold from the HABITATION, , of thy holiness.

5. The DWELLING-PLACE, "Where the troops of angels sing throughout the night, but are silent in the day time, because of the glory of the Israelites." Psalms 42:8: The Lord will command his loving-kindness in the day time, and in the night his song shall be with me. "But how is it proved that this means heaven? "Answer: From Deuteronomy 26:15. Look down from thy holy habitation, the DWELLING-PLACE of thy holiness; and from heaven, and bless thy people Israel.

6. The FIXED RESIDENCE, "Where are the treasures of snow and hail, the repository of noxious dews, of drops, and whirlwinds; the grotto of exhalations," heavens thus denominated?" Answer: In 1 Kings 8:39,49, Then hear thou in HEAVEN thy DWELLING-PLACE, thy FIXED RESIDENCE.

7. The ARABOTH, Where are justice, judgment, mercy, the treasures of life; peace and blessedness; the souls of the righteous, the souls and spirits which are reserved for the bodies yet to be formed, and the dew by which God is to vivify the dead." Psalms 89:14, ; Isaiah 59:17; ; Psalms 36:9, ; Judges 6:24; ; Psalms 24:4; 1 Samuel 25:29; ; Isaiah 57:20: All of which are termed Araboth, Psalms 68:4.

Much more may be seen in Schoettgen, who has exhausted the subject; and who has shown that ascending to heaven, or being caught up to heaven, is a form of speech among the Jewish writers to express the highest degrees of inspiration. They often say of Moses that he ascended on high, ascended on the firmament, ascended to heaven; where it is evident they mean only by it that he was favoured with the nearest intimacy with God, and the highest revelations relative to his will, understand St. Paul thus, it will remove much of the difficulty from this place; and perhaps the unspeakable words, 2 Corinthians 12:4, are thus to be understood. He had the most sublime communications from God, such as would be improper to mention, though it is very likely that we have the substance of these in his epistles. Indeed, the two epistles before us seem, in many places, to be the effect of most extraordinary revelations.

Verse 4. Caught up into paradise
The Jewish writers have no less than four paradises, as they have seven heavens; but it is needless to wade through their fables. On the word paradise See Clarke on Genesis 2:8. The Mohammedans call it [Arabic] jennet alferdoos, the garden of paradise, and say that God created it out of light, and that it is the habitation of the prophets and wise men.

Among Christian writers it generally means the place of the blessed, or the state of separate spirits. Whether the third heaven and paradise be the same place we cannot absolutely say; they probably are not; and it is likely that St. Paul, at the time referred to, had at least two of these raptures.
************************************************** ******
The reason it can be and many times is, important to understand the Jewish beliefs is to give us a better understanding of why they worded things the way they did. Without this knowledge it leave us guessing alot of the time.

Here is another excellent example of Jewish expression that goes over our heads much of the time...I better continue that on the next post so this one isn't so long...

God bless

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 02:48 AM
The expression, coming on the clouds we read in Matthew 24 is a Jewish expression of God's judgment which is seen in many verses in the OT. This is not the full article as I know people get turned off by long posts and won't read them...so I hope its enough to make sense.


Clouds are depicted as the"chariots of God" and indicative of his MAJESTY. In Job 22:12ff Job exalts Jehovah as the one who is in the height of heaven and covered with thick clouds. In Psalm 18 which is a highly apocalyptic description of David's deliverance from Saul the former shepherd tells how Jehovah "bowed the heavens...and came down with darkness under his feet, he rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."

Now one can look but in vain to find a physical event matching these words. Jehovah had acted to deliver his servant and thus he had come. He had acted and his actions had vindicated his righteousness, thus he was depicted as coming in majesty in the clouds. Psalm 68:32-35 also speaks of God who "rides on the heaven of heavens" and "his strength is in the clouds." Again the concept is his majesty and sovereignty. Psalms 104:3 tells us God "makes the clouds his chariots" and "walks on the wings of the wind."

Yet another though related concept of the coming with the clouds is the Messianic motif of Daniel. In Daniel 7 one like the Son of man is depicted as coming in the clouds of heaven. This concept of Messiah on the clouds was certainly one well known in the first century. For John to say in Revelation 1:7 that Jesus would come with the clouds was nothing less than an assertion of his Messianic role as the ruler of the kingdom of God.

In his coming in the clouds he was exercising the sovereignty and demonstrating the majesty of deity so well known in the Old Covenant. The idea is not a literal coming with the clouds so much as an identifying factor of the one under consideration. He is to be viewed not just as man but the One, who, like Jehovah, rides on the clouds. The association of Jesus coming in the clouds then was a way for the Biblical writers to IDENTIFY Jesus, in a manner well known to those conversant with Old Testament symbolism, as God's Messiah, as the Judge, worthy of majesty and honor.

This is precisely the thought Jesus was conveying to Caiaphas when he told him he would see him coming in the clouds. When Jesus said he was going to come in the clouds this was a claim to the Messianic office and divine nature; Caiaphas responded, "He has spoken blasphemy!" Caiaphas was not responding to a claim that Jesus would literally return on a physical cloud. He was responding to the IDENTITY which Jesus was claiming by associating himself as the one to come in the clouds of heaven!

Of course no one has to agree with me on this and sure I could be wrong...its ok if you don't. It just makes for an interesting discussion and hopefully we all learn a little more. :)

God bless

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 03:01 AM
No I don't think so...there are too many other scriptures suggesting and actually showing these are two separate places.

Except you dint show any scriptures that show the places as being separate while the scripture I posted show the two as being the same single place. Paul said they were the same place and that's all I need to believe in it.

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 03:03 AM
Except you dint show any scriptures that show the places as being separate while the scripture I posted show the two as being the same single place. Paul said they were the same place and that's all I need to believe in it.

Since I posted many scriptures in my other posts on this thread showing the difference, I assumed you had read those already and I didn't need to repeat them again. If you want to believe they are the same place, that is fine with me.

God bless

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 03:07 AM
Since I posted many scriptures in my other posts on this thread showing the difference, I assumed you had read those already and I didn't need to repeat them again. If you want to believe they are the same place, that is fine with me.

God bless

Sorry. I have not seen any scriptures declaring Paradise to be different from Heaven. the word Paradise only occurs three times in scripture, only in the NT and one of them is where Paul calls the same place the third heaven, which is the Heaven we all know and hear about. Same place according to the bible.

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 03:19 AM
Oh one thing I wanted to ask and see if anyone knows..I read one time in the original language of the NT they didn't use comma's..they were inserted when it was translated to English. Does anyone know if this is true? I would like to know since the debate on this verse:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Is questioned as to where the comma should be..some saying if its in the right place it doesn't mean that Jesus meant the thief would actually be IN Paradise with Him that day...(because of the other verse of Jesus telling Mary to not cling to Him as He had not ascended to His Father In Heaven yet. (this is why I think they are two separate places...well one reason)

This is the argument over the placement of the comma..

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Or even put it here:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you today, you will be with me in paradise.”


Many go with the last one there saying Jesus was only saying the thief would be with Him in Paradise...but not that day...that He was making the statement that ON THIS DAY, He promises the thief will go to Paradise. Seems pretty awkward to phrase it that way, but the way some things are worded in our translations reads very awkward also.

Now if they used no comma's at all in their language, how would it read then?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you today you will be with me in paradise.”

It reads the thief would be WITH Jesus IN Paradise ON that very day. Does anyone know if they used comma's or not? thanks.

God bless

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 03:43 AM
Oh one thing I wanted to ask and see if anyone knows..I read one time in the original language of the NT they didn't use comma's..they were inserted when it was translated to English. Does anyone know if this is true? I would like to know since the debate on this verse:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Is questioned as to where the comma should be..some saying if its in the right place it doesn't mean that Jesus meant the thief would actually be IN Paradise with Him that day...(because of the other verse of Jesus telling Mary to not cling to Him as He had not ascended to His Father In Heaven yet. (this is why I think they are two separate places...well one reason)

This is the argument over the placement of the comma..

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Or even put it here:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you today, you will be with me in paradise.”


Many go with the last one there saying Jesus was only saying the thief would be with Him in Paradise...but not that day...that He was making the statement that ON THIS DAY, He promises the thief will go to Paradise. Seems pretty awkward to phrase it that way, but the way some things are worded in our translations reads very awkward also.

Now if they used no comma's at all in their language, how would it read then?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you today you will be with me in paradise.”

It reads the thief would be WITH Jesus IN Paradise ON that very day. Does anyone know if they used comma's or not? thanks.

God bless

There are no commas but it doesn't affect the verse and "ascending to the Father" doesn't mean he couldnt and didn't go to the Father after dying. The ascension was a special event that is separate from when he died and returned to the Father.


Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Christ isn't just saying something for effect. This is what occurs when someone dies and it's based on this scripture:


Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Christ went to Heaven/Paradise to his Father as we all do when we die. From there he went to the "grave" where the unsaved dead were, and then he arose after 3 days and returned to his disciples before his "ascension" to his throne beside his Father. Ascension involves a full body ascension which did not occur when Jesus died as his body remained in the tomb and his Spirit went to God and to the grave.

matthew94
Mar 19th 2008, 04:11 AM
Hey everyone :) Here's my thoughts...

In the Old Testament, we are told of Sheol which simply means the grave. Sheol is portrayed as a place of little to no activity. If one only had the Old Testament to go on, one would probably arrive at a position similar to 'soul sleep' based on the bulk of the evidence. Whether the Old Testament authors were simply ignorant of what really happened after death, or simply correct in describing it, is another debate.

When we come to the NT, there seems to be a change of sorts. Jesus' parable of the rich man and lazarus, His statement to the thief on the cross, and some of Paul's saying seem to indicate that our spirit goes to be with the Lord in paradise following our physical death. Outside of the rich man in Luke 16, we aren't really told much conclusive about what happens to the wicked.

Many Christians like to feel they've got everything figured out, so they take a bold stance on this issue. But I don't think the Bible goes out of its way to give us clarity in regards to life after death but before resurrection. I think we should hold our positions loosely on this subject.

Frankly, if it weren't for the story of the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16, I think the landscape of this debate would be very different. Some have argued that that story was a common one in the ancient world and Jesus was simply utilizing it to make a point while not endorsing the 'details' of the afterlife contained therein. If this is true, we know almost zero about the fate of the wicked b/w death and judgment day. The weight of the evidence, then, would move toward something similar to so called 'soul sleep.'

My heart's Desire
Mar 19th 2008, 04:15 AM
I believe we are with the Lord and if that is Heaven then that's where we will be.

My heart's Desire
Mar 19th 2008, 05:07 AM
.



Did not Paul say that his hope was to be clothed with his house waiting for him in heaven? And that he did not expect to spend any time without such a house. The same "mansion" which in John 14, Jesus said He was going to prepare for us?

There are too many clues that indicate to me that this is our hope already. That we will be passed from death to life and be given a new body at that time and not sometime off in the far future. If bodiless souls can come into heaven, then why did the OT saints have to wait in Hades for the grace we were to be given? My guess is because bodiless souls do not enter into heaven, only glorified ones that have been made ready to see the glory of God in Jesus. It is those souls who will never be naked that are given robes to wear in Rev.

Maybe I am the only one who thinks about these things.
Hummm, I think you make a good opinion here.
In that respect, if we are thinking only of where the "you" part of you goes without your body upon death maybe this verse says quite a bit too.
1 Thess:5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24. Faithful is he who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass. NASB
Notice the spirit, soul, body being preserved complete all together.
Also brings to mind, the planting verses, in 1 Corinthians 15;35 - 50
The verses speak mostly of the body at the resurrection but take note of these verses:
37-38 And that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat of of something else.
38: But God gives it a body just as He wished and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
And verse 44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, then there is also a spiritual body

And verse 49: Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

I'm content to know that at death the knowing part of me will be with the Lord Jesus, but still interesting topic.

servantsheart
Mar 19th 2008, 07:03 AM
Paradise in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT) the word is designated garden or forest but in the NT (used only here and in 2 Co 12:4; Rev. 2:7) it refers to the place of bliss and rest between death and resurrection (Lk 16:22; 2 Co 12:2)

No where in King James Bible, the Amplified or the NIV does it state anything about Jesus telling Mary he has not entered Heaven. Since I was Catholic it sounds more like something coming from the historical books the chruch uses as part of their Bible. But they are historical only because the church adds to and takes away from God's Holy Word....you do not state where these statements were obtained from...
Christ died and he surrendered his spirit to God ..Acts 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that all we [His disciples} are witnesses. 33 Being therefore lifted high by and to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promised [blessing which is the]Holy Spirit, He has made this outpouring which you yourselves both see and hear.
Jesus descended into Hades on the Paradise side where he awaited the three days for his body under go the resurrection and ascention...at that time he took the keys of death and of hell from satan (Rev. 1:18; Heb. 2:14-15 and he ascended into heaven where He is presently seated to the right hand of God our Father.


NIV footnotes: God would not let King David's body decompose. It is still in his tomb awaiting the second coming of Christ to raise him up...he had been in his tomb 3 thousand years and the tomb is in Jerusalem.

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 02:18 PM
Paradise in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT) the word is designated garden or forest but in the NT (used only here and in 2 Co 12:4; Rev. 2:7) it refers to the place of bliss and rest between death and resurrection (Lk 16:22; 2 Co 12:2)

No where in King James Bible, the Amplified or the NIV does it state anything about Jesus telling Mary he has not entered Heaven. Since I was Catholic it sounds more like something coming from the historical books the chruch uses as part of their Bible. But they are historical only because the church adds to and takes away from God's Holy Word....you do not state where these statements were obtained from...
Christ died and he surrendered his spirit to God ..Acts 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that all we [His disciples} are witnesses. 33 Being therefore lifted high by and to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit, He has made this outpouring which you yourselves both see and hear.
Jesus descended into Hades on the Paradise side where he awaited the three days for his body under go the resurrection and ascention...at that time he took the keys of death and of hell from satan (Rev. 1:18; Heb. 2:14-15 and he ascended into heaven where He is presently seated to the right hand of God our Father.


[B]NIV footnotes: God would not let King David's body decompose. It is still in his tomb awaiting the second coming of Christ to raise him up...he had been in his tomb 3 thousand years and the tomb is in Jerusalem.



That verse isn't refering to King David..its referring to Jesus.

Acts 2

22 “People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarene by doing powerful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know. 23 But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him. 24 But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip. 25 King David said this about him:

‘I see that the Lord is always with me.
I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.
26 No wonder my heart is glad,
and my tongue shouts his praises!
My body rests in hope.
27 For you will not leave my soul among the dead
or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.
28 You have shown me the way of life,
and you will fill me with the joy of your presence.’

29 “Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30 But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne. 31 David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.

So if I am understanding your post right you believe Jesus spirit went to Heaven, then turned around and went down to hell or hades to preach to the souls there, then took the keys from satan...did satan ever have those keys to start with? scripture someone please.

The waited to be raised from the dead? is this right?

God bless

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 02:20 PM
There are no commas but it doesn't affect the verse and "ascending to the Father" doesn't mean he couldnt and didn't go to the Father after dying. The ascension was a special event that is separate from when he died and returned to the Father.


Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Christ isn't just saying something for effect. This is what occurs when someone dies and it's based on this scripture:


Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Christ went to Heaven/Paradise to his Father as we all do when we die. From there he went to the "grave" where the unsaved dead were, and then he arose after 3 days and returned to his disciples before his "ascension" to his throne beside his Father. Ascension involves a full body ascension which did not occur when Jesus died as his body remained in the tomb and his Spirit went to God and to the grave.

Ok thanks for sharing that information with us. I still disagree but I don't want to argue about it either. Its not that big of a deal.

God bless

My heart's Desire
Mar 19th 2008, 05:06 PM
Oh one thing I wanted to ask and see if anyone knows..I read one time in the original language of the NT they didn't use comma's..they were inserted when it was translated to English. Does anyone know if this is true? I would like to know since the debate on this verse:


I don't know about commas and such but do know that translators separated the Word into chapters and verses and numbered them. I'm thinking it means the Word is written on scrolls as a whole? A Hebrew/Greek scholar I suppose would know the answer. I've only read the general "how we got the Bible" sections they put in some Bibles.

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 09:53 PM
Ok thanks for sharing that information with us. I still disagree but I don't want to argue about it either. Its not that big of a deal.

God bless

That's fair enough but would you mind commenting on the scriptures I posted? Do you agree with them and what they say about where our spirits go after dying?

visus
Mar 19th 2008, 11:57 PM
This is my second post on this forum so i 'm quite new. This is a question i was trying to figure for myself for the longest while and i am still confused.
I will, however, post what i think someone might be able to clarify it for me and therefore help the original person who formed the thread.
I believe we are made of three parts, a spirit, soul and body. The spirit returns to God at our death. The soul goes asleep within the grave, and the body returns to the earth.

p.s i futher believe we as christians might be made of four things as we have onboard the holy ghost as well.

MLC
Mar 20th 2008, 02:33 AM
I personally do not think Jesus saying he would see the thief in Paradise in anyway supports that we will not go to Heaven when we die, or that Heaven and Paradise are one and the same. I was about to type up some big long reply but since I'm lazy I am just going to post a link where a guy basically says what I would have said. :P

http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/clarification-heaven-paradise.htm

I remember I once had the same question, and came to that conclusion, then afterwards I did some research and found out that it tends to be the more "traditional" view. (Not necessarily the correct view, though I think it is.)

So basically, the thief was told he was going to Paradise because he was going to paradise. (along with Jesus) But then three days later he would have gone to Heaven, along with all the rest of the Old Testament Saints. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, ect...) It was just that up to that point no one was in Heaven. Jesus would have gone to Heaven after he resurrected though, when he ascended. (And at that point the thief would have been in Heaven also.)

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 02:45 AM
I personally do not think Jesus saying he would see the thief in Paradise in anyway supports that we will not go to Heaven when we die, or that Heaven and Paradise are one and the same. I was about to type up some big long reply but since I'm lazy I am just going to post a link where a guy basically says what I would have said. :P

http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/clarification-heaven-paradise.htm

I remember I once had the same question, and came to that conclusion, then afterwards I did some research and found out that it tends to be the more "traditional" view. (Not necessarily the correct view, though I think it is.)

So basically, the thief was told he was going to Paradise because he was going to paradise. (along with Jesus) But then three days later he would have gone to Heaven, along with all the rest of the Old Testament Saints. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, ect...) It was just that up to that point no one was in Heaven. Jesus would have gone to Heaven after he resurrected though, when he ascended. (And at that point the thief would have been in Heaven also.)

The article claims that Paradise is not Heaven but does not offer the scriptures to prove it:


The Bible tells. Paradise was a part of Hell, where the righteous were held prisoner until Jesus died on the cross for all of us. "Paradise", and "Abraham's Bosom," are the same place. (I will not, at this time, go into all the verses which shows this to be true)


I can assure you no such scriptures exist but if you think they do I gladly invite you to provide them. I have quoted Paul referring to the third heaven as Paradise

servantsheart
Mar 20th 2008, 03:19 AM
Jesus could have taken him with him to the side of Hades where the saved were waiting...it was called Paradise but when Jesus left there after 3 days (Eph. 4:8-10). ..when Jesus ascended upward he took the saved souls with him and a new location for Paradis was now located upward ... Luke 23-43; 2 Cor. 12-14; Rev. 2:7; Rev. 23:1-5. His spirit, upon his last breath he committed his spirit to God. His soul/spirit went to the Paradise side of Hades. His body did not assend until after the three days.
I agree. We do not go to heaven...it comes after the Great White Throne Judgement..Rev. 21:1-6

servantsheart
Mar 20th 2008, 03:32 AM
This is my second post on this forum so i 'm quite new. This is a question i was trying to figure for myself for the longest while and i am still confused.
I will, however, post what i think someone might be able to clarify it for me and therefore help the original person who formed the thread.
I believe we are made of three parts, a spirit, soul and body. The spirit returns to God at our death. The soul goes asleep within the grave, and the body returns to the earth.

p.s i futher believe we as christians might be made of four things as we have onboard the holy ghost as well.
we are body, soul, and spirit. It is God's Spirit living inside of us in our hearts.
The holy ghost came upon people giving them the baptism of fire so they spoke in tonuges OT. After Pentecost the Word usually uses Holy Spirit or Spirit. The Spirit still infill you to have your own prayer language, to lay on the sick and see them healed through the will and power of God the Father.

visus
Mar 20th 2008, 05:28 AM
we are body, soul, and spirit. It is God's Spirit living inside of us in our hearts.
The holy ghost came upon people giving them the baptism of fire so they spoke in tonuges OT. After Pentecost the Word usually uses Holy Spirit or Spirit. The Spirit still infill you to have your own prayer language, to lay on the sick and see them healed through the will and power of God the Father.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


Therefore since we are all spirit, soul and body regardless of whether you are a christian or not, and the scripture verse says the Holy Ghost is inside the Christian. Does it not mean the Christian comprises 4 things. Please correct me if i'm wrong because i have battled with this for a while and need it clarified.

servantsheart
Mar 20th 2008, 06:18 AM
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


Therefore since we are all spirit, soul and body regardless of whether you are a christian or not, and the scripture verse says the Holy Ghost is inside the Christian. Does it not mean the Christian comprises 4 things. Please correct me if i'm wrong because i have battled with this for a while and need it clarified.

I Thes. 5:23, May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blamless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If you are not a Chrisitan you do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in you.
It is in the regenerate or those baptised and of a new mind. The Holy Ghost is the older form of the newer version, Holy Spirit.
Sometimes people talk about being anointed with healing powers received of the Holy Ghost...somewhat like it is a stronger action ...but it all comes from God and is the same as the Holy Spirit... and everything we do with the guidance of the Spirit should go back to God to glorify Him.
When you are baptised you receive the Holy Spirit. The Spirits presence in you becomes more prominate and profitable to the person when you understand how the Holy Spirit can lead you in all things religious and give you promptings on other issues....It is the Holy Spirit that give you the gift of speaking in a prayer language, the Fruits of the Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit and much more.

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 06:28 AM
The Holy Ghost is the older form of the newer version, Holy Spirit.

The terms Holy ghost and Holy Spirit are exactly identical and interchangeable. There is no such difference between the terms in scripture nor in the original languages.

visus
Mar 20th 2008, 04:03 PM
We seem to be on the same page. Therefore i'll try to answer the question. Please bear in mine this might not be 100% accurate.

Some person when they die go to heaven, on what basis i can not tell from the bible an example is Elijah who was taken up by a whirlwind, and later appeared onto Jesus in the NT.

However, for the most part persons who die the soul remains asleep in the grave until the second coming of Jesus for the Judgement day. Where we will find out who will be going to heaven and who will be going to hell.

What i have stated here is in contradiction with what is usually thought by the media, where when you die you go to heaven or hell.

I am not an authority on this so others should clarify if needs be.

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 10:22 PM
However, for the most part persons who die the soul remains asleep in the grave until the second coming of Jesus for the Judgement day.

Exactly what verses say the soul is asleep?

visus
Mar 20th 2008, 11:50 PM
Firstly please do not take what i am saying as being totally correct, but the following is what i think.

As we agree for the most part a person is made of Spirit, soul, and Body.

If we look in the Bible and what it says about the spirit/ghost at death:

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

therefore i believe the spirit returns to God.



Now to indirectly answer your question this is what the bible says about the soul at death:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

therefore we see here the soul can be destroyed by God in Hell. I believe this will be after the judgement day. The bible does not directly state the soul goes to sleep, but since we are made of three things, and the bible says we go to sleep at death, then it would probably be the soul which does that as the spirit returns to God and the body decays.

Here are some verses which speak to us going to sleep at death:

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act 13:36
1Th 4:14

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 11:56 PM
Firstly please do not take what i am saying as being totally correct, but the following is what i think.

As we agree for the most part a person is made of Spirit, soul, and Body.

If we look in the Bible and what it says about the spirit/ghost at death:

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

therefore i believe the spirit returns to God.



Now to indirectly answer your question this is what the bible says about the soul at death:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

therefore we see here the soul can be destroyed by God in Hell. I believe this will be after the judgement day. The bible does not directly state the soul goes to sleep, but since we are made of three things, and the bible says we go to sleep at death, then it would probably be the soul which does that as the spirit returns to God and the body decays.

Here are some verses which speak to us going to sleep at death:

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act 13:36
1Th 4:14

You are correct that the bible never says the soul sleeps. One thing that is important is to know that the soul and the Spirit are merged together and are not normally separate. Only one verses says what can separate them but that is a unique thing and meant to demonstrate the power of the Word, not what it does on any given day to the soul and spirit. Thus, where ever the Spirit goes, the Soul is with it.

There is a figure of speech i scripture about the dead sleeping. This does not literally mean they are asleep. It means they are dead because the dead appear to be sleeping except there is no breathing. All of those who have died are fully awake, awaiting judgement.

visus
Mar 21st 2008, 12:07 AM
You are correct that the bible never says the soul sleeps. One thing that is important is to know that the soul and the Spirit are merged together and are not normally separate. Only one verses says what can separate them but that is a unique thing and meant to demonstrate the power of the Word, not what it does on any given day to the soul and spirit. Thus, where ever the Spirit goes, the Soul is with it.

There is a figure of speech i scripture about the dead sleeping. This does not literally mean they are asleep. It means they are dead because the dead appear to be sleeping except there is no breathing. All of those who have died are fully awake, awaiting judgement.


Can you tell me where in the bible it states they are fused, and can you give me that verse which says they can be seperated, which might indirectly answer your statement. thanks.

Naphal
Mar 21st 2008, 12:37 AM
Can you tell me where in the bible it states they are fused, and can you give me that verse which says they can be seperated, which might indirectly answer your statement. thanks.


Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Note that three sets of things are listed here as being things that the Word of God can "divide asunder" or separate from one another. This means each set of two are merged together as one but have separate characteristics.

1: soul and Spirit
2: joints and marrow
3: thoughts and intents of the heart (which is the mind)

Things things are all part of each other in complex ways. It isn't that the word of God's purpose is separating these, such as separating the bone marrow from our joints, but the intent is to show just how powerful and "sharp" the Word of God actually is. It's not meant to be literal but to simply convey it's unique power in ways that people in biblical times could grasp and understand. The Word of God doesn't literally separate the soul and Spirit from each other, nor our bone marrow from our joints, nor our thoughts from our intents.

I do not believe it is saying the soul and spirit are two different things but more like two aspects of one thing. I believe this is similar to a figure of speech to demonstrate how awesome and "sharp" the Word of God is, that it can even separate the soul and spirit. Not that it literally does, but this is an attempt to show just how powerful it is, that it can even split these things which really are one in the same.

Here are some translations that I think convey the point better than the KJV:

(CEV) What God has said isn't only alive and active! It is sharper than any double-edged sword. His word can cut through our spirits and souls and through our joints and marrow, until it discovers the desires and thoughts of our hearts.

(GNB) The word of God is alive and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It cuts all the way through, to where soul and spirit meet, to where joints and marrow come together. It judges the desires and thoughts of the heart.

(GW) God's word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God's word judges a person's thoughts and intentions.

I believe Paul is saying there is a soul and spirit which are basically one thing, and impossible to separate but the Word is so powerful that only it *could* even separate them...not that it does for what purpose could that have, but if it wanted it could do this because it can penetrate anything. We know the Word is Christ, and yes he knows us, our real inside souls and spirits, our very thoughts and intentions.

Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Here appropiately Paul does make a clearer reference to "Him" to connect the Word to Christ, and reiterates his message, that "all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him"...that nothing can be hidden from Him.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Then Paul gracefully moves into the subject of Christ having been essentially as we are, in the flesh and tempted of all things, and touched with the same infirmities (like fear of death) yet he sinned not, unlike us.

Paul says, Christ knows our very hearts, our sins and weakneses and He can understand because he experienced a flesh life yet did not sin...so trust Him...I believe this is the crux of the message here.

******

http://www.dtl.org/dtl/treatise/soul-spirit-1.htm

Definitions of Soul and Spirit

English Dictionary:
The next step in this study will be to look at the definitions of the words soul and spirit. First to be looked at will be the definitions found in an English dictionary. Following are the possible definitions which are relevant to this study from The American Heritage Dictionary:

soul (sol) noun
1. The animating and vital principle in human beings, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of human beings, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human being; a shade....
5. A human being: "the homes of some nine hundred souls" (Garrison Keillor).
6. The central or integral part; the vital core: "It saddens me that this network . . . may lose its soul, which is after all the quest for news" (M. Kalb).
spir·it (spîr¹ît) noun
1. a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness....
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
6. a. The part of a human being associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group.
7. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.(11)

A comparison of these definitions will show many similarities. The most important to this discussion is the first definition for the soul where it is said to be "credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion" and the sixth definition for the spirit where the it is said to be, "associated with the mind, will, and feelings."

And note that the definition for soul uses the word spirit (#3); and the definition for spirit uses the word soul (#2).
In addition, a quick check of Roget's Thesaurus shows one of the synonyms given for soul is spirit; and one of the synonyms given for spirit is soul.(12) So in popular usage, the words soul and spirit are interchangeable.

Hebrew and Greek Lexicons:
The next area to study is how Hebrew and Greek lexicons define the meanings of the original words that soul and spirit translate. Below are the relevant portions for these words taken from Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon and Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon.

First, the Hebrew words for soul (nephesh) and spirit (ruach):

SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)
So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions. And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."
Now the Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):

SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....
SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)

Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God. And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. And notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b). Only #4 for spirit gives so much as a hint the two might be distinct.

Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both.

My heart's Desire
Mar 21st 2008, 02:16 AM
Hey, could we say that the soul is the personality and the spirit is the part that may or may not respond to God. On the front of the Jpost website there is an ad that says "What does your soul look like?" Take free Personality test. (I suggest you don't though, its kabbalah) but they apparrently liken it to the person part.
Don't know if this has been posted but I think of this verse.

Gen. 2:7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground,(which would be the body) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: (what makes the body live?) and man became a living being. (the soul?).

In Ezek. 37 first there were bones, then skin and muscle appears, the Lord cause the breath to enter them so that they have life from the 4 winds. In verse 14 God puts His Spirit within you and you will come to life. (spiritual birth?)
I know this is of the Nation Israel but seeing if it can relate to a living being also, I mean as an order or parts example goes. The example seems to be related to the human body. Well hopefully you know what I'm trying to get at. I take it that there is a spiritual part of the spirit that remains dead if not reborn again by the Spirit of God through Salvation?

Thanks for posting the Def's, Naphal. :)

Naphal
Mar 21st 2008, 02:22 AM
Hey, could we say that the soul is the personality and the spirit is the part that may or may not respond to God.

I don't believe we can state this about either. The Soul and Spirit are who we are and our "essence". They are two things in one and is the part of us that continues on after we die.

visus
Mar 21st 2008, 02:30 AM
:(i understand what you are saying that they can be used interchangeably, but then i come across a verse which uses them as seperate entities, that is:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Naphal
Mar 21st 2008, 02:37 AM
:(i understand what you are saying that they can be used interchangeably, but then i come across a verse which uses them as seperate entities, that is:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, they are not exactly the same things which is why one has it's own unique name but they also aren't overly different either and they are together like Conjoined twins are two but one. And, while we are human, the Spirit soul and body are all in one together

Bick
Mar 21st 2008, 05:07 AM
Oh one thing I wanted to ask and see if anyone knows..I read one time in the original language of the NT they didn't use comma's..they were inserted when it was translated to English. Does anyone know if this is true? I would like to know since the debate on this verse:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Is questioned as to where the comma should be..some saying if its in the right place it doesn't mean that Jesus meant the thief would actually be IN Paradise with Him that day...(because of the other verse of Jesus telling Mary to not cling to Him as He had not ascended to His Father In Heaven yet. (this is why I think they are two separate places...well one reason)

This is the argument over the placement of the comma..

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Or even put it here:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you today, you will be with me in paradise.”


Many go with the last one there saying Jesus was only saying the thief would be with Him in Paradise...but not that day...that He was making the statement that ON THIS DAY, He promises the thief will go to Paradise. Seems pretty awkward to phrase it that way, but the way some things are worded in our translations reads very awkward also.

Now if they used no comma's at all in their language, how would it read then?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus replied, “I assure you today you will be with me in paradise.”

It reads the thief would be WITH Jesus IN Paradise ON that very day. Does anyone know if they used comma's or not? thanks.

God bless

MY COMMENTS: Yes, you are right, in the originals there was no puntuation, no periods, no commas. These were added later, primarily by the 'translators', based upon their interpretations, in many cases.

In this verse, placing the comma after "today" makes it align with the common Hebrew idiom, "this day (or today)", which is used constantly for very solemn emphasis.

For instance: Deut. 4:26, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day.." KJV.
4:39, "Know therefore this day,.."
5:1. "Hear O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day,..."
7:11, "...I command thee this day, to do them."
8:11, "...I command thee this day;.."
8:19, "...if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God...I testify against you this day, that ye shall surely perish."
9:3, "Understand therefore this day, that the Lord thy God is he which goeth before thee..."

The use of "this day" occurs some 42 times in Deuteronomy alone.

NEXT: Let's carefully read the dying thiefs request:

Luke 23:42, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
When Jesus comes into (in-Gk) his kingdom, it will be at his glorious return to the earth in power and great glory to establish his Messianic reign. IMO, the believing thief will arise in the first (or former) resurrection, which takes place after the Lord's return.

And Jesus answers him, "Verily (amen) I say unto thee today, you shall be with me in the paradise." My version; "the" is in the Greek, but omitted in most versions, for some reason.

As for "paradise", a concordance defines it as a "garden ground or park".
The restored earth, specifically Israel and Jerusalem, shall bring forth abundance of fruit and crops; waters and springs shall be in the wastelands, as the prophets wrote about:

Isa. 35:1,2, "The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall reoice, and blossom as the rose."

Isa. 41:18,19, "I will open rivers in high places and fountains in the midst of the valleys; I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, the myrtle, etc..."

Eze. 36:34,35, "And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all who passed by. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited."

Trees shall grow on the banks of the life giving stream flowing out from under Messiah's throne in the restored Jerusalem. The trees will bear fruit for each of the months, which will be for food, and its leaf for medicine.
Eze. 47:8-12.

These verses give us a hint of how Israel and Jerusalem will be like the garden (paradise) of Eden, and which is promised to the thief.

As for Jesus being alive during death, everything I read says He died and was in the tomb three days and three nights, just as Jonah the prophet was in the belly of the fish.

Naphal
Mar 21st 2008, 05:14 AM
As for "paradise", a concordance defines it as a "garden ground or park".



Concordances define it as that as well as heaven or the heavens. It depends on context. Christ meant heaven as we know he wasn't going to a park.



As for Jesus being alive during death, everything I read says He died and was in the tomb three days and three nights, just as Jonah the prophet was in the belly of the fish.



Only his body was dead, his Spirit was alive and not in the tomb.

visus
Mar 21st 2008, 06:24 PM
Can we tell if we go to heaven immediately at death, which was asked by the op?

btw nephal i do not agree with you that persons are awake in the grave, and i'm finding hard to swallow that the spirit and the soul are joined especially when i read the verse from the CEV:

(CEV) What God has said isn't only alive and active! It is sharper than any double-edged sword. His word can cut through our spirits and souls and through our joints and marrow, until it discovers the desires and thoughts of our hearts.

When i see "divide asunder" in the KJV i'm thinking more along the lines of the Word of God being able to PENETRATE into these things listed. i think it is a figure of speech,and it does not actually CUT/DIVIDE.

Naphal
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:09 AM
btw nephal i do not agree with you that persons are awake in the grave,

No one is alive or awake in in any literal grave. Only a dead body is there and it returns to the dust of the earth unless it's full of the modern chemicals which prevent the natural decomposition.



and i'm finding hard to swallow that the spirit and the soul are joined especially when i read the verse from the CEV:

(CEV) What God has said isn't only alive and active! It is sharper than any double-edged sword. His word can cut through our spirits and souls and through our joints and marrow, until it discovers the desires and thoughts of our hearts.



So if you believe this verse is saying the soul and Spirit are always separated by the word of God then you must also believe the bone marrow of your joints has been removed from the bones of your joints. Or, do you think God is trying to relay how powerful and discerning the word of God is rather than what it can split apart?



When i see "divide asunder" in the KJV i'm thinking more along the lines of the Word of God being able to PENETRATE into these things listed. i think it is a figure of speech,and it does not actually CUT/DIVIDE.

It's more than just penetration but it also affects the thing penetrated in a unique way:


The Greek word is merismos and it means to cleave asunder or separate; a division or partition. So, it means to take something that is normally one and split the two apart. The examples given are things normally unified as one.