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Clavicula_Nox
Mar 12th 2008, 12:11 AM
Today was a great day, as an unemployed soldier who considers himself to be a budding philosopher, I sit around and think deep thoughts about said unemployment.

This changed almost immediately upon my fiances arrival. She came home and was upset, and I being the fairly okay person I am tried to comfort her. Then her mouth opened, her vocal chords began vibrating, and I'm now in a state of shock.

Apparently, Saturday night she went out with a friend whom I know. Apparently, she was intoxicated enough that she couldn't drive (good call) but her friend decided to..let some other random friend "take care of her." Long story short, I have my fiance telling me she has cheated on me, etc and I need to go home, etc lots of crying from her.

My typing is bad because my hands and right leg are shaking. At this point, she is talking to another friend of hers, whom is morally bankrupt (cheated on her deployed husband an uncountable number of times), and crying and whatever. I'm in the computer room with the door locked. I'm not angry at her per say because from her story it sounds like rape, but when I suggest thatshe insists it wasn't.

I understand that we are supposd to be strong on forgiveness and things, but I'm not sure how to do this.

Also, no lectures on pre-marital co-habitation/sex, I'm not interested and already know I'm wrong.

*edit*

Maybe this should go in a different forum, I wouldn't mind if females posted. Mods, any ideas?

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 12th 2008, 12:36 AM
I would prefer if your input was not deleted.

Honestly, I don't know how to give my problems to God. My normal routine is to tackle things, then later give thinks for the strength to overcome. I have a base problem wiht praying in that I believe it is extortion on a deified scale. "Grant my wish or my faithshall lesson!" and so on.

Heh, with the above being said, maybe this can go in Controversial Issues, eh?

HisLeast
Mar 12th 2008, 12:54 AM
I would prefer if your input was not deleted.

Honestly, I don't know how to give my problems to God. My normal routine is to tackle things, then later give thinks for the strength to overcome. I have a base problem wiht praying in that I believe it is extortion on a deified scale. "Grant my wish or my faithshall lesson!" and so on.

Heh, with the above being said, maybe this can go in Controversial Issues, eh?

I hear you man... and struggle with the same prayer barrier. How dare I think of God as the great cosmic vending machine right? Well, there's nothing wrong with asking for things like strength, wisdom, discernment, and peace right? Its not like you're asking for a day off or a mulligan. When people say "put this before God" what they mean (I think) is "tell God you need His help".

BTW... check your pm's man. I send you something a little more private.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 12th 2008, 01:18 AM
Please mov emy thread to Controversial issues. Thank you.

amazzin
Mar 12th 2008, 01:18 AM
I would prefer if your input was not deleted.

Honestly, I don't know how to give my problems to God. My normal routine is to tackle things, then later give thinks for the strength to overcome. I have a base problem wiht praying in that I believe it is extortion on a deified scale. "Grant my wish or my faithshall lesson!" and so on.

Heh, with the above being said, maybe this can go in Controversial Issues, eh?

Well CN, sin can be forgiven and God's mercy is always greater than any sin we committ but sin has consequences that we cannot escape. It is God's discipline and he disciplines those he loves.

You said not to talk about premarital sex or to discuss co-habitation. Do you think this has no consequence?

Truly and honestly, she cheated on you. She had sexual relations with another person and she was free to do this because there was no covenant of marriage between the both of you. her free will mixed kin with booze led her to forget what you both had and she cheated on you.

But this is not so much I am concerfend about. i am concerned tghat you feel that prayer is a useless exercise and in your own words you call it "extortion". No sir, it is not. It is required of us to pray for both thankfulness and for petition in rough situations. It is not extoration and God's answer is always the right one.

As you move forward, I would suggest to forgive but to also change your life and how you live your life by including God in all aspects of life. To be reconcilied to Him and devote yourself to Him and develope a relationship with Him including the Word, prayer and community with otehr believers.

As for your GF,I think time apart is good and if you are serious abut God you will do the right thing and no co-habitate with anyone until you are married and abstain from sexual relations. Honor God and He will bless you.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 12th 2008, 01:32 AM
Considering I said I know I am wrong about co-habitation and sex, that should indicate I am aware of and responsible for consequences.

Honestly, if we were married it still would have happened, and without any disrespect intended, I think your reasoning is thin and gives to much credit to marriage.

As I explained to another in a PM, I have no problem with coming to God after I have overcome what obstacles have been placed before me. I don't think I need to ask Him for further help or to lessen my pain when He has already given me the tools. Part of a parents job is to equip their children with the tools to make their own way, and in this way I feel like I am a child of God. I would feel better knowing that when I make my report, I can have a beginning and an end, and part of that end is thanking God for giving me the strength required to overcome before the situation occurred.

I don't go to church because I don't have time in my life for church politics and gossip, which is all I have experienced in different communities.

Thirst
Mar 12th 2008, 03:13 AM
Clav,

That's a tough one, man. But let me ask you a question, and I am being completely respectful of you here... You put reigns on us when you ask us to not 'lecture' you about co-habitation and sex. We are here to help you. One of the greatest gifts in my early walk was having guys tell me when I was doing something that was wrong. I rebelled against it and did not like it, writing them off as judgmental or whatever else, but what time has shown me was that they were just doing what God had called them to do and I am immensely grateful because of it. Did I like it at the time? NO. I hated it. But again, it showed me a lot of things.

If you know the consequences, why still do it? That is my question.

I believe, and this is just my opinion, but I believe that when we step out of the boundaries that God has set for us, especially in relationships, our blessings cease to come. That might not be true, but in my experience, I think that deserves some merit. I recall a passage where God just gives people over to their sinful desires, and it ends up destroying them and the things around them.

I speak not of condemnation at all, brother. I speak of experience. I am not at all saying that this happened because you were living in a sinful relationship - that is not my place, nor would I go there. But I also believe the Lord will move in drastic measures if He chooses to, if our hearts are hardened to the point of engaging in willful sin. Again, please do not take this post as a slam, because it isn't by any means.

I am sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear. But it is my hope that maybe something here I said stuck with you.

I am praying for your situation... That God takes control and shows you His will through all of this.

MikeAD
Mar 12th 2008, 04:19 AM
Clav,
My current fiance cheated on me some time ago. We've been together for 4 years (almost, 4 in july).

I can say that I have forgiven her, but to say that its not in the back of my mind (sometimes the front) everyday would be a lie.

I have been through a lot with her, but I do love her alot.

If you love her, get over it, if what she says is true then you need to be there for her and help her, man up and put aside the pissed off/jealousy etc. Help her make better choices and so on. But if you have reason to believe shes not telling you the story truthfully then maybe the outcome should be different.

lbeaty1981
Mar 12th 2008, 01:28 PM
Man, I can't even begin to imagine what you must be going through right now. I am most definitely praying for you. It sounds to me like the best thing for both of you right now is to move out and spend some time apart. You're running on high emotions right now, and you won't be able to properly get handle this while she's around. Spend some time apart, think about the relationship and what it means to you, and see if you can move forward or not.

In terms of prayer, keep this in mind: Before Jesus was crucified, He went before God and prayed. God grants us the tools to deal with these situations, but He can also grant you support as you go through them. Take care man, I will continue to pray for you.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 12th 2008, 02:46 PM
Clav,
My current fiance cheated on me some time ago. We've been together for 4 years (almost, 4 in july).

I can say that I have forgiven her, but to say that its not in the back of my mind (sometimes the front) everyday would be a lie.

I have been through a lot with her, but I do love her alot.

If you love her, get over it, if what she says is true then you need to be there for her and help her, man up and put aside the pissed off/jealousy etc. Help her make better choices and so on. But if you have reason to believe shes not telling you the story truthfully then maybe the outcome should be different.

I have spoken with someone else who was present in the situation, and their stories match. I believe her, and I know that she feels terrible about herself. I am going to get over it, and go on.


@Thirst:

I know you're not being condemning, and I don't get anything expect a positive message from your post. The reason I asked to be without the "lectures," is that I don't need them, I know that I am in the wrong and being told I'm wrong while already knowing I'm wrong is just counter-productive and likely to make me somewhat defensive.

Why continue to do it? Co-habitation is because I simply have nowhere else to go, all of my friends are on month 6 of a 15 month deployment, and I have sent out over 300 applications to different jobs in the area with no results. The average pay here is $9.00/hr, and that won't cover rent on it's own. Sex is because I'm weak, in the situation, etc etc.

Thank you for writing, I do appreciate it.

@ Ibeaty

Yeah, we'll see. I will try to overcome what may be a pride issue and re-address the issue of prayer because there is always the chance that I am wrong. Thank you.

amazzin
Mar 12th 2008, 11:37 PM
I know you're not being condemning, and I don't get anything expect a positive message from your post. The reason I asked to be without the "lectures," is that I don't need them, I know that I am in the wrong and being told I'm wrong while already knowing I'm wrong is just counter-productive and likely to make me somewhat defensive.

CN
This is a Christian web site and sin cannot go without addressing. If what we say about your sin is counter productive then you're going to hear more of it from us. Just because you don't want to go there is not reason to avoid the discussion on sin. Sin is eating you up and causing you to make irrational conclusions about your relationship with your GF.

As for becoming defensive that you p;rotecting sin. Rather than it breaking you, you are doing the opposite which means your pride is so high and mighty that your headed for a downward spiral. The bible say "Pride comes before destruction and a haughty spoirit before the fall". Youcan bet your last dollar where this is headed.
'

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 13th 2008, 05:08 PM
My brother, my friend,

UGH. Do us old soldiers ever draw a break?

Let me answer that. YES. God is good, my friend, and He loves you and He wants what is best for you.

God not only hears your prayers, He actually listens to them. You're a soldier, you know the difference between hearing and listening. It's a distinction that God is well-versed in, and our mediator, the Holy Spirit through Christ Jesus, brings before Him your heart in a very deep, very personal way. He knows our hurts, and you can be sure He is crying with you. She had an affair on Him as well as you, so God can and does relate. He feels exactly as you do.

My heart pours out to you, bro. I have had my knees buckle and the tears flow from the same thing, and it hurts, and it hurts bad and like no other hurt in the world.

But a lot of things in this life hurt, and He is faithful to comfort us. But you have to reach out to Him, bro, and that's prayer. If you lose your faith in prayer and just don't pray, how do you expect to communicate with Him, the great healer? He's not going to set before you a burning bush, but if you maintain your faith, He will return it by seeing you through this.

You know that I respect you and that I care about you - deeply. How many times have we talked in that regard?

Look for a PM from me, bro.

Warrior Prophet
Mar 13th 2008, 05:22 PM
from what you say she certainly does not sound like she was so drunk that she did not know what she was doing

you have indicated that she remembers what went on and with who

so if her brain function was still that good

how did she completly forget you for the duration

something you might want to ask yourself and think over before marriage

forgive her fine

marry her ??? you might want to really think on that one

sorry for the harshness guy

VerticalReality
Mar 13th 2008, 06:19 PM
If a Christian asks advice from others on a particular issue . . . sin should be the first thing that is dealt with. The fact of the matter is that the initial sin of sex before marriage/co-habitation or whatever you want to call it has now led to a struggle with another sin called unforgiveness. What other advice does one expect to get? Do you honestly expect God-fearing Christians to give you any other advice except to stop sinning? If blatant sin led to this current sin, how should one solve the situation? The only answer here, and the only one that is going to solve your current situation, is to stop the sinning. If the initial sin of both you and your girlfriend wasn't present you wouldn't be in this mess.

amazzin
Mar 13th 2008, 06:20 PM
If a Christian asks advice from others on a particular issue . . . sin should be the first thing that is dealt with. The fact of the matter is that the initial sin of sex before marriage/co-habitation of whatever you want to call it has now led to a struggle with another sin called unforgiveness. What other advice does one expect to get? Do you honestly expect God-fearing Christians to give you any other advice except to stop sinning? If blatant sin led to this current sin, how should one solve the situation? The only answer here, and the only one that is going to solve your current situation, is to stop the sinning. If the sin wasn't present you wouldn't be in this mess.

Amen...........and to repent before God and ask for His forgiveness

HisLeast
Mar 13th 2008, 06:29 PM
If a Christian asks advice from others on a particular issue . . . sin should be the first thing that is dealt with. The fact of the matter is that the initial sin of sex before marriage/co-habitation or whatever you want to call it has now led to a struggle with another sin called unforgiveness. What other advice does one expect to get? Do you honestly expect God-fearing Christians to give you any other advice except to stop sinning? If blatant sin led to this current sin, how should one solve the situation? The only answer here, and the only one that is going to solve your current situation, is to stop the sinning. If the initial sin of both you and your girlfriend wasn't present you wouldn't be in this mess.

Lets remember that CN isn't the one who did the cheating here. Sure lets not sugar coat for the pre-marital cohabitation/sex, but that really isn't the issue. The issue is the cheating, and lecturing CN on his own wrongs isn't lending a helping hand. It would be like saying "Oh, I'm sorry your dad is dying of cancer... but what do you expect when you tell little white lies at work?". We don't know if this wouldn't have happened even if they were chaste and seperated.

VerticalReality
Mar 13th 2008, 06:51 PM
Lets remember that CN isn't the one who did the cheating here. Sure lets not sugar coat for the pre-marital cohabitation/sex, but that really isn't the issue. The issue is the cheating, and lecturing CN on his own wrongs isn't lending a helping hand. It would be like saying "Oh, I'm sorry your dad is dying of cancer... but what do you expect when you tell little white lies at work?". We don't know if this wouldn't have happened even if they were chaste and seperated.

Honestly, the girlfriend is not my concern here. I don't know her, and she is not here to speak for herself or her actions. She is not here asking for advice either, so why in the world would I speak about that situation? I'm going to approach this just as I would for those in my church here at home. If a person comes to me and says that so and so did this to me and in the process reveals to me that they themselves have been participating in and accepting blatant sin, what in the world do you expect me to do? Brush aside that person's blatant sin and address the other person who isn't even there to speak for themselves? Ummm . . . no. I'm going to speak to the person there and the sin they are involved in. That's the bottom line.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 13th 2008, 06:58 PM
5 by 5, my brother. Praying for you!

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 13th 2008, 08:30 PM
If a Christian asks advice from others on a particular issue . . . sin should be the first thing that is dealt with. The fact of the matter is that the initial sin of sex before marriage/co-habitation or whatever you want to call it has now led to a struggle with another sin called unforgiveness. What other advice does one expect to get? Do you honestly expect God-fearing Christians to give you any other advice except to stop sinning? If blatant sin led to this current sin, how should one solve the situation? The only answer here, and the only one that is going to solve your current situation, is to stop the sinning. If the initial sin of both you and your girlfriend wasn't present you wouldn't be in this mess.

I agree with everything except the last sentence, this happens to married couples too.

amazzin
Mar 13th 2008, 09:10 PM
Lets remember that CN isn't the one who did the cheating here. Sure lets not sugar coat for the pre-marital cohabitation/sex, but that really isn't the issue. The issue is the cheating, and lecturing CN on his own wrongs isn't lending a helping hand. It would be like saying "Oh, I'm sorry your dad is dying of cancer... but what do you expect when you tell little white lies at work?". We don't know if this wouldn't have happened even if they were chaste and seperated.

HisLeast
Your assessment is wrong. If his gf were the one posting she would also hear how sin affects lives and has consequences. Yes we are to encourage CN but to a limit. Like you said, we can't sugar coat this in any way or form.

mcgyver
Mar 13th 2008, 09:14 PM
Hey CN...

You have never seemed like the type of guy that wants things sugar coated, so let me give it to you straight...I hope that there is enough mutual respect between us that you'll understand where I'm coming from, and you'll realize that it is out of both respect and Christian love that I say this:

First: Amazzin and VR are absolutely correct.

Brother, this is where the "metal hits the meat", and you've got to do two of the hardest things that you will ever have to do...Harder than Ranger School, harder than anything you've done before.

1. REPENT!!! Literally turn away from sin. You don't need me to tell you it's wrong, you already know that...but it is something that you have to do, because YOUR relationship with God is suffering because of it, and He will not let you have any peace until you do. I would remind you that the maximum effective range of an excuse is ZERO Meters. Question is: "Do you really trust God to take care of you if you do what you know is right?"

2. You have got to forgive her. To forgive literally means to "cancel the debt", and is commanded in Col 3:13 "Even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do." Cancel the debt...from the bottom of your heart...without condition...

Here's the catch 22: You won't be able to really/fully/unconditionally do #2 until you do #1.

I can give you a whole theological discourse as to why this is true, But let me cut to the chase: To forgive her is going to require a lot of prayer and a drawing closer to God. Willing sin and willing rebellion against God is going to prevent that very thing...When we willingly sin we put a veil between us and God. Just the way it is.

Right now my brother, God has gotten hold of you and shaken you out of your comfort zone, The ball's in your court now. Take a minute and read Romans 8:28 and really consider what it is saying to you.

Finally, I can guarantee that if you will honor God, It'll turn out better than you could ever have expected.

Oh yeah...Happened to me...Only it was my wife while I was in combat as a new Christian with only 3 months in the faith. But God has restored "all that the locust hath eaten".

You are in my prayers, Ranger...

VerticalReality
Mar 13th 2008, 09:40 PM
I agree with everything except the last sentence, this happens to married couples too.

Point here is this, brother . . .

If you were totally doing things the way our Lord has commanded you, you wouldn't have been having any sort of sexual relationship with this girl and living in sin. If this girl were doing things the way our Lord has commanded her, she wouldn't have been getting drunk and having sex with somebody else. That's just the truth of the matter.

My point is sin begets more sin. The only way to stop that is to do exactly as others in this thread have stated. You need to repent, ask the Lord's forgiveness, and begin from this point forward abiding in the Lord and obeying His Word.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 14th 2008, 02:02 PM
HisLeast
Your assessment is wrong. If his gf were the one posting she would also hear how sin affects lives and has consequences. Yes we are to encourage CN but to a limit. Like you said, we can't sugar coat this in any way or form.

I'm not interested in sugar coating, I think people who do that obfuscate the truth. I just think that it's largely unnecessary to tell me what I'm doing wrong when i already know that I'm doing that wrong, that's all. I don't think it's pride, I think it's awknowledgement and shows that I have some prior understanding of what's going on.

@ macgyver

You and MikeDarmi, Amazzin, and a few others in this thread have been the most helpful. You have all also forced me to re-consider my stance on prayer, and if it means much, I think all of you are right on that front.

I am forgiving her, because her intentions that night were to have fun with a friend she hadn't seen in some time. Her friend, however, is a sordid type and set this situation up. Meagan, my fiance, has restraint with alcohol, but can be coaxed if the coaxer knows what they're doing. With several days of research, I have come to this conclusion and am instituting changes in our relationship that will reflect this chain of events.

I have told this "friend" that she is not welcome in our house so long as I remain in it, and I have suggested she shouldn't call Meagan anymore.


If you were totally doing things the way our Lord has commanded you, you wouldn't have been having any sort of sexual relationship with this girl and living in sin. If this girl were doing things the way our Lord has commanded her, she wouldn't have been getting drunk and having sex with somebody else. That's just the truth of the matter.

This is a Descartian circle, and not-necessarily true. "If you had been doing this the right way, wrong things wouldn't happen." You know, in this case, that would be true, but she isn't saved and I'm a sinner. I know, I know, but it happens. Our marriage plans are in April, and considering this incident, I'm not sure there is much reason to delay them.

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 02:18 PM
This is a Descartian circle, and not-necessarily true. "If you had been doing this the right way, wrong things wouldn't happen."

This absolutely is true in regards to sin, and it is scriptural. You live a lifestyle contrary to God's Word and His commands and you are certainly going to reap the consequences for that. That's just the way it is. Sure, you can't always control whether or not someone else sins against you, but you can certainly control whether you sin or not, and you can certainly limit the impact that others will have on you depending on your walk and what you expose yourself to. The fact of the matter here is that she wouldn't have had the opportunity to mistreat you if you were doing things the way you should be. If you were living the way God has commanded you, there would be no opportunity in this particular situation for this girl to have this sort of impact on your life.


You know, in this case, that would be true, but she isn't saved and I'm a sinner. I know, I know, but it happens. Our marriage plans are in April, and considering this incident, I'm not sure there is much reason to delay them.

So, you are willfully and disobediently going against direct commands of our Lord by first off yoking yourself with an unbeliever (2 Corinthians 6:14-17), and secondly by committing willful sexual immorality that you know is wrong. And you honestly wonder why you're in the situation you are right now? God doesn't tell us these things just for kicks. He tells us these things because they are what's best for us, and quite frankly, to do otherwise is just flatout wicked. If you are born again this is not what the Word says about you, nor does it allow for such explicit and willful disobedience, so you really have some self-examination that needs to be done right now. Otherwise, you are inviting judgment upon yourself. I don't want to come across too harshly, but man this stuff needs to stop. Don't live your life contrary to what you know is true and then scratch your head and wonder what you should be doing and why things aren't going the way you would hope they would.

Doing things God's way is the only way we are going to live in victory over the garbage of this world.

Toolman
Mar 14th 2008, 03:20 PM
So, you are willfully and disobediently going against direct commands of our Lord by first off yoking yourself with an unbeliever (2 Corinthians 6:14-17), and secondly by committing willful sexual immorality that you know is wrong. And you honestly wonder why you're in the situation you are right now? God doesn't tell us these things just for kicks. He tells us these things because they are what's best for us, and quite frankly, to do otherwise is just flatout wicked. If you are born again this is not what the Word says about you, nor does it allow for such explicit and willful disobedience, so you really have some self-examination that needs to be done right now. Otherwise, you are inviting judgment upon yourself. I don't want to come across too harshly, but man this stuff needs to stop. Don't live your life contrary to what you know is true and then scratch your head and wonder what you should be doing and why things aren't going the way you would hope they would.

Doing things God's way is the only way we are going to live in victory over the garbage of this world.

CN,

I completely agree with VR here. If you are going to choose not to trust what God has spoken then you will most certainly reap the consequences of choosing to disobey what He has shown as His way.

As VR says, God's commands aren't just thrown out there "willy nilly" by God, they are there, by His grace, to protect us from ourselves and our sinful nature.

If you resist His protection then of course the enemy and sin will have reign to bring death into your life.

Proverbs 27:6 - Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 14th 2008, 03:53 PM
Hey, let's do this thing where I say something and a whole bunch of other people come along and say the same thing.

@ verticlereality, I'm not "wondering" anything. I'm not some ignorant simpleton who isn't aware of things. This is my last post in this thread because, from the beginning, I have been admitting my wrong and I simply don't understand why you would take it upon yourself to berate me and tell me how wrong I am when i have already beaten you to the punch. The purpose of this thread was seeking advice, I have gotten it, and really didn't need to be told time and time and time and time again that I'm wrong when post #1 very clearly states I already know I'm doing wrong. It's like when people are in a conversation and one doesn't know what to say so they begin making obvious commentary: "So I see you're wearing a red shirt today..yes..hmm" etc.

She comes from a stronger faith-based background than I do, but was led away from what she perceived to be constant condemnation from those authority figures who were in her life at the time. To berate me for being with a non-believer who is only a non-believer due to the actions of other Christians is simply insane, and honestly, I am the only one working to correct that; she has been written off by anyone else who could influence her in this regard.

This will also be my last post in this thread because it has served it's purpose to me, and helped in an unforseen way in the direction of prayer, but I simply marvel at how many times you can tell me I'm wrong as if I'm disagreeing with you. What are you more concerned with? Pointing out wrongs or fixing them?

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 04:06 PM
Hey, let's do this thing where I say something and a whole bunch of other people come along and say the same thing.

@ verticlereality, I'm not "wondering" anything. I'm not some ignorant simpleton who isn't aware of things. This is my last post in this thread because, from the beginning, I have been admitting my wrong and I simply don't understand why you would take it upon yourself to berate me and tell me how wrong I am when i have already beaten you to the punch. The purpose of this thread was seeking advice, I have gotten it, and really didn't need to be told time and time and time and time again that I'm wrong when post #1 very clearly states I already know I'm doing wrong. It's like when people are in a conversation and one doesn't know what to say so they begin making obvious commentary: "So I see you're wearing a red shirt today..yes..hmm" etc.

She comes from a stronger faith-based background than I do, but was led away from what she perceived to be constant condemnation from those authority figures who were in her life at the time. To berate me for being with a non-believer who is only a non-believer due to the actions of other Christians is simply insane, and honestly, I am the only one working to correct that; she has been written off by anyone else who could influence her in this regard.

This will also be my last post in this thread because it has served it's purpose to me, and helped in an unforseen way in the direction of prayer, but I simply marvel at how many times you can tell me I'm wrong as if I'm disagreeing with you. What are you more concerned with? Pointing out wrongs or fixing them?

I've already told you how to fix them, and if you won't listen to the Word but instead remain and wallow in sin . . . there is really nothing else anyone here can do.

Again, you are in direct disobedience to God here. How someone can sit here, admit what they're doing is wrong and still want to remain in it even though it goes directly against what their Savior would have them do is completely beyond me. Me personally, I would have a hard time remaining in the sin that contributed to my Lord and Savior being nailed to a cross and suffering a death I would never want to experience. But you are free to do as you wish. Just don't be suprised if it doesn't turn out peachy.

This isn't about "berating" you. This is about correcting your willful sin, which is what any brother/sister in Christ is supposed to do. I have a feeling that my "berating" is a lot more lenient than how someone like the apostle Paul would have handled this situation.

Toolman
Mar 14th 2008, 04:18 PM
and really didn't need to be told time and time and time and time again that I'm wrong when post #1 very clearly states I already know I'm doing wrong.

CN,

I really don't see VR as telling you that you are wrong. He is simply pointing out that while you know your actions are wrong you do not intend to change them (having a sexual relationship outside of marriage and intending to enter into marriage with someone who does not believe in Christ).

Correct me if I'm wrong there but that is what I see.


She comes from a stronger faith-based background than I do, but was led away from what she perceived to be constant condemnation from those authority figures who were in her life at the time. To berate me for being with a non-believer who is only a non-believer due to the actions of other Christians is simply insane, and honestly, I am the only one working to correct that; she has been written off by anyone else who could influence her in this regard.

CN, you can obviously continue to not "write her off" and still live obediently to God. Not having sex with her and holding off on marriage to her is not "writing her off". Those are sin and by giving into those what good is that really doing her?

You can spiritually support her without doing those things. In fact doing those things is counter-productive to your goal.


This will also be my last post in this thread because it has served it's purpose to me, and helped in an unforseen way in the direction of prayer, but I simply marvel at how many times you can tell me I'm wrong as if I'm disagreeing with you. What are you more concerned with? Pointing out wrongs or fixing them?

I completely see that VR is trying to fix them by compelling you to not only ADMIT that you are wrong but to actually take ACTION against the wrong you are doing by STOP doing it.

IOW, don't only admit you are wrong... take the action of stop doing what you know is wrong.

Make sense?

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 14th 2008, 04:35 PM
It makes sense, and these are all things I am well-aware of previous to this thread. It was unasked for, unwanted, and entirely unnecessary and it has continued to a point that is near the limit of my tolerance. I am not going to move out of a house that I jointly own when my weekly income is $288 before taxes.

If we condemn all non-believers and force ourselves to remain separate from them, I don't see how we can expect to create new believers from them. Saying I have no intention of changing the situation is simply asinine. It will take many years to get her to a point when she can begin to trust in faith, and it is a goal that I have for her and one that I work on everyday. I'm am sorry to say there is no Instant-Convert button, at least not since the Dark Ages. Things take time, and I have little patience for those who want things their way on their time.

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 04:44 PM
It makes sense, and these are all things I am well-aware of previous to this thread. It was unasked for, unwanted, and entirely unnecessary and it has continued to a point that is near the limit of my tolerance. I am not going to move out of a house that I jointly own when my weekly income is $288 before taxes.

So, in other words, you are allowing worldly matters to determine and influence your spiritual well-being . . .

Does this sound even remotely close to what the Word of God commands of you?


If we condemn all non-believers and force ourselves to remain separate from them, I don't see how we can expect to create new believers from them. Saying I have no intention of changing the situation is simply asinine. It will take many years to get her to a point when she can begin to trust in faith, and it is a goal that I have for her and one that I work on everyday. I'm am sorry to say there is no Instant-Convert button, at least not since the Dark Ages. Things take time, and I have little patience for those who want things their way on their time.

Not marrying an unbeliever doesn't require that you "condemn" them. It requires you being obedient to what the Lord Jesus Christ has commanded of you. This is not just a recommendation. This is a command. The Word says DO NOT yoke yourself with an unbeliever. It doesn't say "only yoke yourself to an unbeliever when you have a desire for them to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior". Salvation works on God's timing, and He's not going to adjust His schedule to suit your unbiblical and disobedient situation.

Toolman
Mar 14th 2008, 04:44 PM
It makes sense, and these are all things I am well-aware of previous to this thread.

But that is the point isn't it. Being aware of it and actually taking action to repent of it are 2 completely seperate things.


It was unasked for, unwanted, and entirely unnecessary

The reason I saw the neccessity was it appeared you are ready to admit wrong but not wiling to righ the wrong.

That's why I posted the scripture I did. The wounds (truth that hurts) from those who care about you for your own good.


and it has continued to a point that is near the limit of my tolerance. I am not going to move out of a house that I jointly own when my weekly income is $288 before taxes.

Didn't say you had to move out. Said, don't have sex with someone you are not married to and don't marry an unbeliever.

That is not the same as moving out. God will work that out as you follow His direction regarding sin.


If we condemn all non-believers and force ourselves to remain separate from them, I don't see how we can expect to create new believers from them.

No one even suggested that. Not having sex with someone you are not married to and not marrying an unbeliever is NOT "condemning them or seperating from them".

Its simply not committing sin. You can't justify sin by saying its somehow helping to bring a person closer to God. It's not.


Saying I have no intention of changing the situation is simply asinine. It will take many years to get her to a point when she can begin to trust in faith, and it is a goal that I have for her and one that I work on everyday. I'm am sorry to say there is no Instant-Convert button, at least not since the Dark Ages. Things take time, and I have little patience for those who want things their way on their time.

Please describe how you plan to change the situation. I think that was VR's point. To change the situation you need to stop the deliberate sin.

But bro, if you are getting angry then I'll just drop it and not make another post. If we can't discuss these things as brothers then I would just as soon let it go.

Let me know.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 14th 2008, 07:02 PM
I've already told you how to fix them, and if you won't listen to the Word but instead remain and wallow in sin . . . there is really nothing else anyone here can do.

Again, you are in direct disobedience to God here. How someone can sit here, admit what they're doing is wrong and still want to remain in it even though it goes directly against what their Savior would have them do is completely beyond me. Me personally, I would have a hard time remaining in the sin that contributed to my Lord and Savior being nailed to a cross and suffering a death I would never want to experience. But you are free to do as you wish. Just don't be suprised if it doesn't turn out peachy.

This isn't about "berating" you. This is about correcting your willful sin, which is what any brother/sister in Christ is supposed to do. I have a feeling that my "berating" is a lot more lenient than how someone like the apostle Paul would have handled this situation.

Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself ~ Jesus Christ, circa the time of his sacrifice.

Good job making two of us give up.

EDIT: Make it 4, all of us sick of the condemnation. Jesus is about love. We'll pray for you.

EDIT2: 2 Peter 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ False Teachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Toolman
Mar 14th 2008, 07:18 PM
Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself ~ Jesus Christ, circa the time of his sacrifice.

Good job making two of us give up.

EDIT: Make it 4, all of us sick of the condemnation. Jesus is about love. We'll pray for you.

FMI,

If "Tom" is cutting himself with a knife and "Bill" said "you should stop cutting yourself" and "Tom" says "I know I'm wrong for cutting myself, I don't need you to tell me that" and he continues to cut himself, was it condemnation and judgement that motivated "Bill" to tell "Tom" to quit cutting himself or was it out of true concern for his well being that he told him to quit cutting himself.

Is willful sin really any different than cutting yourself?

How does a brother in Christ calling for another brother in Christ to turn from willful sin end up with people "giving up".

I don't see why we can't discuss this issue without all the hyper-emotional stuff. We are supposed to be men sharpening each other. Isn't part of sharpening removing off and whittling off the edges that are dulled?

Maybe I'm missing something here. If I am please point out where VR is wrong in his counsel to CN. Aren't Christian brothers to encourage each other to rise above sin and follow Christ with every ounce of strength we have?

:confused

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 14th 2008, 07:28 PM
FMI,

If "Tom" is cutting himself with a knife and "Bill" said "you should stop cutting yourself" and "Tom" says "I know I'm wrong for cutting myself, I don't need you to tell me that" and he continues to cut himself, was it condemnation and judgement that motivated "Bill" to tell "Tom" to quit cutting himself or was it out of true concern for his well being that he told him to quite cutting himself.

Is willful sin really any different than cutting yourself?

How does a brother in Christ calling for another brother in Christ to turn from willful sin end up with people "giving up".

I don't see why we can't discuss this issue without all these hyper-emotional outbursts. We are supposed to be men sharpening each other. Isn't part of sharpening removing off and whittling off the edges that are dulled?

Maybe I'm missing something here. If I am please point out where VR is wrong in his counsel to CN. Aren't Christian brothers to encourage each other to rise above sin and follow Christ with every ounce of strength we have?

:confused

I am not allowed to comment on the issue at hand.

There is a way to correct from love and a way to worsen one's hurt.

This man has 3 combat tours and chest cabbage to make a general raise eyebrows. He's no kid, regardless of his age. He's a hero.

If you want to counsel him, that's one thing. But he came here, needing a sympathetic ear, not condemnation. He's essentially homeless, is jobless, suffering separation anxiety, and his true love just had an affair on him. Not to mention PTSD.

And yet y'all piled on him. Tactless.

What's more Christ-like: Your admonishment, or loving him back in to the fold?

"Let he without sin cast the first stone." Jesus Christ.

I see a lot of stones in this thread. All in the name of "help." :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Toolman
Mar 14th 2008, 07:42 PM
If you want to counsel him, that's one thing. But he came here, needing a sympathetic ear, not condemnation.

FMI, I guess I just have never thought of other godly men calling me to resist sin and follow Christ to be condemnation. I've just never viewed it that way.


He's essentially homeless, is jobless, suffering separation anxiety, and his true love just had an affair on him. Not to mention PTSD.

And yet y'all piled on him. Tactless.

I guess we'll just differ there then. I didn't see it as "piling on" but because of love telling another to stop hurting themselves.


What's more Christ-like: Your admonishment, or loving him back in to the fold?

They are one and the same.


"Let he without sin cast the first stone." Jesus Christ.

I see a lot of stones in this thread. All in the name of "help." :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

FMI, I'm all about the grace of God. Anyone who has spent anytime on this board with me knows that (I'm very often accused of believing in God's grace TOO much!). But grace does not enable sin and gloss over it but gently directs us toward what is hurting us (sin) so that we may cut it out of our lives.

But obviously that is not coming across and since it appears CN does not want this to continue I will graciously bow out of the conversation. I do pray and believe that God would have us (the men of Solomon's porch) be there for each other, in all ways, comforting hurts and wounds and encouraging a resistance to sin and walking with Christ.

IWalkWithHim
Mar 14th 2008, 07:54 PM
This will also be my last post in this thread because it has served it's purpose to me, and helped in an unforseen way in the direction of prayer, but I simply marvel at how many times you can tell me I'm wrong as if I'm disagreeing with you. What are you more concerned with? Pointing out wrongs or fixing them?

Honestly, this was my concern too as I read this thread. I read every single post up to this point. If I was CN, I would have felt like killing myself to know that everyone "says" they're trying to help me but it sure doesn't seem that way. What kills me is that so many people take this stance that they are "holier than thou" and that the slightest mistake is grounds for immediate rebuke and chastizment. This guy came here to look for someone to sympathize with him and understand his situation. Not chastize him for the circumstance he is in. I am all for trying to fellowship and encourage one another to build each other up but some of you take it to a level that makes people feel like they'll never measure up to the life that some of you claim to live.

I do the absolute best that I can to live my life as sin free as I can. I encourage my family and friends and I am always an ear to those in need. But I never use the Word of God to belittle them. How many of you have ever made a mistake or was living not-so-perfect and God chastized you the way some of you do to others?

Maybe I'm wrong but sometimes I think you guys take things too far....:confused

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 08:00 PM
Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself ~ Jesus Christ, circa the time of his sacrifice.

Good job making two of us give up.

EDIT: Make it 4, all of us sick of the condemnation. Jesus is about love. We'll pray for you.

EDIT2: 2 Peter 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ False Teachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

1 Corinthians 5:1-13
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Should I comfort Clavicula Nox in his time of sin or should I fear God instead and correct my brother with God's Word in order to bring him back to where he is supposed to be? Should I be sympathetic of his sin or should I mourn the fact that he is out of God's will and is in danger of a much higher and swift judgment than what I'm giving him now? I expect folks to not understand where I'm coming from. The Word declares that folks will take offense to such things. However, I'm much more concerned about answering to my God than I am answering to folks who are comfortable in sin. God's grace certainly does not give us freedom to sin, and willful sin attempts to make a mockery of what our Lord Jesus Christ has done for us. Who do you love? Somehow I believe that if Clavicula Nox knew tomorrow that his lady friend's life would be ended if he chose to commit sexual immorality with her once more, he would refrain from this sin. Why is the same consideration not given to the fact that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ hung on a cross because of our disobedience? He died for our sin . . . not so that we could keep on sinning, but so that we could have victory over darkness and walk in righteousness. Willful sin is taking lightly the sacrifice of our Lord. There was no tolerance for it during the apostle Paul's time, and there will be no tolerance from me either. I will continue to fear God and not man. Let God be true and every man a liar!

IWalkWithHim
Mar 14th 2008, 09:26 PM
However, I'm much more concerned about answering to my God than I am answering to folks who are comfortable in sin.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. :B He NEVER said that he was comfortable in sin. He said that due to his circumstances, he had no where else to go at this time. He has acknoledged over and over again how he knows that "shacking up" is wrong. I don't know that he could have made it more clear. Using scolding words on the front end will certainly drive away anyone that would otherwise recieve what it is your saying.

If you really want to know what makes me mad?? When the woman with the alabastor box washed, kissed and anointed the feet of Jesus, Jesus didn't scold her for the sins she had commited as the Pharasee's made a big deal about. He forgave her of her sins without condemnation. Her heart was heavy with all that she carried. Which CN, IMHO was trying to do. But of course, instead of forgiving our brother for his sin, no we throw hot coffee on him and call him a scoffer first.

Wow yall.:no:

mcgyver
Mar 14th 2008, 10:16 PM
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one anotherís burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:1-2)

We all need to back up and take a deep breath here....

We should need no reminder that what is written above is NOT a SUGGESTION: it is God's command.

You know why it is important? BECAUSE SIN HURTS, SIN DAMAGES, SIN KILLS!

It hurts us and the ones we love...It damages our relationship with God, It can lead to every kind of burden, bondage, depression and yes...even death.

Bottom line: If I don't love you enough to point out that you're running full tilt into a minefield...then I don't love you at all! If I don't love you enough to try and restrain you going deeper (even at the risk of angering you), then I love Christ even less.

The spirit of gentleness is hard to convey on a message board...If I had been talking to this young man (whom I have a great respect for); I'd have said the same thing...difference is he would have heard the tone of my voice, he would have seen the posture of my body, he would have sensed the deep concern that I have....Because I've been around the block a couple of times myself and know from hard-won experience that God's word is true in regards to sin, repentance, and restoration.

And I've got news for you...were he a member of our church and (after a reasonable amount of time) failed to repent...then we would have no option but to go down the road outlined in Matthew 18...no matter how much it hurt us to do so...That's how serious it is in God's eyes.

You can't just treat the symptom and ignore the disease...

So before we start tearing down each other for standing upon the word of God, let us re-examine our priorities, and check our own hearts...OK?

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 10:38 PM
This is exactly what I'm talking about. :B He NEVER said that he was comfortable in sin. He said that due to his circumstances, he had no where else to go at this time. He has acknoledged over and over again how he knows that "shacking up" is wrong. I don't know that he could have made it more clear. Using scolding words on the front end will certainly drive away anyone that would otherwise recieve what it is your saying.

If you really want to know what makes me mad?? When the woman with the alabastor box washed, kissed and anointed the feet of Jesus, Jesus didn't scold her for the sins she had commited as the Pharasee's made a big deal about. He forgave her of her sins without condemnation. Her heart was heavy with all that she carried. Which CN, IMHO was trying to do. But of course, instead of forgiving our brother for his sin, no we throw hot coffee on him and call him a scoffer first.

Wow yall.:no:


Pardon me, but you perhaps need to go back and reread this thread. Clavicula Nox is not just living with this girl, he is willfully and admittedly committing sexual immorality with her. The same sort of sexual immorality that was enough for the apostle Paul to judge that a man in Corinth needed to be thrown out of the church over it. Sexual immorality is sin, and it is required of me to both judge this as sin and correct him on it as well. Do you not see how serious this issue is? This is not a "Oh brother, you poor thing . . . you need to try to do better . . ." sort of situation. This is a "WAKE UP you are in clear disobedience to our Lord here and you are in danger of judgment" sort of situation. I would not be loving in this situation if I were to sit back and sympathize and pity him in such a situation. It would be different if he had come here saying that he had committed sin, he was sorry for this and repentant, and he wanted advice on how he could come back to where the Lord wanted him to be. Instead, he came admitting that he knows what he's doing is wrong, yet he's not prepared to bring these wrongful actions to an immediate hault. This shows that there is no repentance. Therefore, this fellow is living in sin and is in danger of judgment. Clear Scripture instructs this, so perhaps your issue is not with me but with God's very own Word.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 14th 2008, 10:58 PM
Well, I realize my comments are going to get me banned.

But you guys are so busy naming sins that you forgot that the basic tenet of this faith is love. LOVE. You're hurting him, and for no reason than you wanting to play God. Let God do that.

This is contemptible.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 14th 2008, 11:02 PM
Pardon me, but you perhaps need to go back and reread this thread. Clavicula Nox is not just living with this girl, he is willfully and admittedly committing sexual immorality with her. The same sort of sexual immorality that was enough for the apostle Paul to judge that a man in Corinth needed to be thrown out of the church over it. Sexual immorality is sin, and it is required of me to both judge this as sin and correct him on it as well. Do you not see how serious this issue is? This is not a "Oh brother, you poor thing . . . you need to try to do better . . ." sort of situation. This is a "WAKE UP you are in clear disobedience to our Lord here and you are in danger of judgment" sort of situation. I would not be loving in this situation if I were to sit back and sympathize and pity him in such a situation. It would be different if he had come here saying that he had committed sin, he was sorry for this and repentant, and he wanted advice on how he could come back to where the Lord wanted him to be. Instead, he came admitting that he knows what he's doing is wrong, yet he's not prepared to bring these wrongful actions to an immediate hault. This shows that there is no repentance. Therefore, this fellow is living in sin and is in danger of judgment. Clear Scripture instructs this, so perhaps your issue is not with me but with God's very own Word.

Sorry, my friend, but you are pushing many away from the faith that came here seeking to know Him. I'd rather be guilty of Clavicula's sin than knowing I have to explain to Jesus that I tried to preach His word and forgot His love in the process, thus driving people away because they wanted to listen to Jesus, and not you.

We truly are our own worse enemy.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 14th 2008, 11:06 PM
I do pray and believe that God would have us (the men of Solomon's porch) be there for each other, in all ways, comforting hurts and wounds and encouraging a resistance to sin and walking with Christ.

Ya, y'all have done such a great job there, I tell ya. He's on the verge of suicide, but you're on the verge of telling people what God says.

Good job guys! :rolleyes:

Let's pile the condemnation on a bit more, eh?

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 11:09 PM
Well, I realize my comments are going to get me banned.

But you guys are so busy naming sins that you forgot that the basic tenet of this faith is love. LOVE. You're hurting him, and for no reason than you wanting to play God. Let God do that.

This is contemptible.

Actually, you have it backwards, and the fact is that's just the truth. True love, and that is agape love, is going to judge sin and correct it. That's point blank and period. The question Clavicula Nox has to answer is whether he wants to obediently accept correction from the judgment he is receiving from his brothers in Christ here in this thread who are trying to lead him back into the truth, or does Clavicula Nox want to receive judgment from God who is much more fearful than anyone in this thread could ever be.

Whether you realize it or not, you are not helping anything here.

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 11:12 PM
Sorry, my friend, but you are pushing many away from the faith that came here seeking to know Him. I'd rather be guilty of Clavicula's sin than knowing I have to explain to Jesus that I tried to preach His word and forgot His love in the process, thus driving people away because they wanted to listen to Jesus, and not you.

We truly are our own worse enemy.

Or perhaps you are too spiritually blind to see the love in this thread. It's not love to play paddy cake about sin. Do you dare call Paul unloving in 1 Corinthians 5 when he judged that this brother committing sexual immorality needed to be thrown out of the church and into the hands of Satan so that his flesh could be destroyed? Do you dare make such a proclamation? It is our duty to judge sin. The simple fact that the church doesn't judge as it is supposed to is one of the reasons the church is such a mess right now.

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 11:16 PM
Ya, y'all have done such a great job there, I tell ya. He's on the verge of suicide, but you're on the verge of telling people what God says.

Good job guys! :rolleyes:

Let's pile the condemnation on a bit more, eh?

If he is indeed on the verge of suicide as you claim, what exactly do you think is the root of that problem? Jesus said that we need eyes to see and ears to hear. What sort of eyes and ears do you think He's talking about?

Sounds to me like this entire situation has the fingerprints of the destroyer all over it. You can try to place blame on folks here who are speaking truth, but that is not helping anything at all. Clavicula Nox can indeed take his life if he allows the devil to convince him of such a thing. However, the sin he is currently in is going to bring about the same result. The wages of sin equals death.

It's easy to sit around and place blame on the folks speaking God's truth. It's much more difficult to examine yourself and submit to the will of the Lord. However, which one is more rewarding, and which one is going to bring about destruction?

VerticalReality
Mar 14th 2008, 11:22 PM
Now, all that needs to be said here has been said. Clavicula Nox has been given the truth about his situation. It is now up to him how he is going to respond. He can either humble himself and respond to God's truth or he can continue to allow Satan to control his life. It's going to be one or the other. This is just as the parable of the sower says . . .

The seed of God's Word has been sown. What sort of ground is it going into? Let's pray it's not the hard ground that doesn't allow the seed to penetrate and produce fruit.

mcgyver
Mar 14th 2008, 11:23 PM
Well, I realize my comments are going to get me banned.

But you guys are so busy naming sins that you forgot that the basic tenet of this faith is love. LOVE. You're hurting him, and for no reason than you wanting to play God. Let God do that.

This is contemptible.

Let me take one more stab at this, if I may...and show that the motivation is not "judgment" but love...

Let's say that I drive by your house at 0300 and see smoke....

"Well", I say..."I know FMI is asleep in there, but he had a hard day...he worked overtime and he needs his sleep".

I think to myself: "If I bang on his door and wake him, then tomorrow he's going to be worn out...probably feel pretty miserable because I woke him up...losing all that sleep and all."

I go on: "I love FMI with a 'Christian' love, and I don't want to do anything that's going to hurt him...I know he NEEDS his sleep...so I'm not going to wake him up...I mean there's not a whole lot of smoke...it'll probably go out on its own..."

So I drive off...

-----And your house catches fire------

CN's house is on fire. He is really in danger of getting burned. That's not me saying it...That's what the Word of God says...

Should we say "There, there...it's OK..." OR "Your house is on fire, run! Save yourself!"

I personally would be stricken if someone were to knock on my door and tell me that my house was on fire...but I would rather have that happen than to see my family burned up.

Make any sense?

JIML
Mar 14th 2008, 11:26 PM
The funny thing I noticed about this thread, is that CN was asking whether he should forgive or not, and not a single person answered his question!

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 14th 2008, 11:37 PM
The funny thing I noticed about this thread, is that CN was asking whether he should forgive or not, and not a single person answered his question!

I did.

But in PM, where it couldn't be judged.

mcgyver
Mar 15th 2008, 12:17 AM
The funny thing I noticed about this thread, is that CN was asking whether he should forgive or not, and not a single person answered his question!

Refer to post #21

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 15th 2008, 12:21 AM
I think everyone needs to calm down.

mcgyver
Mar 15th 2008, 12:34 AM
I think everyone needs to calm down.

Agreed............

daughter
Mar 15th 2008, 12:36 AM
Blummin eck, I'd agree with that! I'm sure you're fine... and I STILL don't know why I wrote to you! But you know that all things work out to the good to those that love Him, and so does everyone else... so I'm pretty sure you're not on the verge of suicide.

Still don't know why I've been getting notions I had to tell you everything will be okay (for weeks now) and I'm still sure you must think I'm a loon... but things will work out. And YOU KNOW THAT!

Sorry... I just found this thread, and I'm all embarassed now. That's the last time I let my subliminal sci fi meanderings dictate who I pm...

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 15th 2008, 01:56 AM
I don't think you're a loon, and I appreciate the message.

For the record, I am not suicidal or anything like it, though I don't like how this thread has managed to go, but I do appreciate everyone's post in it whether I agree or disagree.

Toolman
Mar 15th 2008, 03:19 AM
I think everyone needs to calm down.

Thank you CN. .........................

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 15th 2008, 11:56 AM
I also want to add that although I don't like what people have to say sometimes, they only said things out of a sense of caring. I also know that those who said things in defense of me also said things out of a sense of caring, so with that being said, we should all come to the agreement that we all care about each other but have different ways of showing it.

@Verticlereality, thank you for the advice that you have given me, they are all things that I intent to correct in my life, but they will take time.

@everyone else: Thanks for posting and caring.

IWalkWithHim
Mar 15th 2008, 03:08 PM
I also want to add that although I don't like what people have to say sometimes, they only said things out of a sense of caring. I also know that those who said things in defense of me also said things out of a sense of caring, so with that being said, we should all come to the agreement that we all care about each other but have different ways of showing it.

@Verticlereality, thank you for the advice that you have given me, they are all things that I intent to correct in my life, but they will take time.

@everyone else: Thanks for posting and caring.

As long as you got out of it what you needed to grow my brother. ;)

VerticalReality
Mar 15th 2008, 04:44 PM
@Verticlereality, thank you for the advice that you have given me, they are all things that I intent to correct in my life, but they will take time.

I know it may be difficult for many to understand, but I don't say these things just because it's easy. Many times what is painful for the present is what is best for down the road, and I don't warn you because I'm self-righteous. I warn you because I've already been down this road and it gave me nothing be hardship. What pain I would have saved myself if I had just done things the way God wanted me to.

Toolman
Mar 15th 2008, 07:11 PM
I've already been down this road and it gave me nothing be hardship. What pain I would have saved myself if I had just done things the way God wanted me to.

Ditto. ..............................

Warrior4God
Mar 19th 2008, 08:56 PM
Truly and honestly, she cheated on you. She had sexual relations with another person and she was free to do this because there was no covenant of marriage between the both of you.

I respectfully disagree with you on this point. Though it's not as permanent as the covenant of marriage, being in a relationship that has gotten to the point of engagement implies there is to be monogamy, particularly when it has been specifically discussed between the two parties that monogamy is expected and required in the relationship. I never did care much for those relationships that were "open" and both parties were free to date other people. What is the point in doing that if you actually want to be with the other person? Either date them or date somebody else, not both simultaneously. It's hard to really get to know a person if you are also dating other people. It's much easier to get to know one person at a time without being distracted by others and complicating things. You're not free to screw around just because you don't have a wedding ring on your finger. I'm pretty certain if you were dating somebody to the point of engagement and they cheated on you, your reaction would not be, "Oh, well. This doesn't bother me. It's ok. It's not like we are married or anything." :rolleyes: As far as forgiveness being extended to a wayward girlfriend...CN needs to forgive her, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has to reconcile the relationship. Maybe the relationship can be salvaged and maybe it can't. Sounds like drinking is a problem here, though her infidelity can't be entirely blamed on the booze. After all, alcohol can't make you do anything you weren't already somewhat willing to do before you get drunk. Alcohol impairs the part of the brain that controls the ability to exercise restraint. People make much more impulsive decisions while blitzed because all their inhibitions are loosened up. If one is turned on by somebody other than their boyfriend but are able to avoid acting on that attraction while sober, all that control goes out the window while one is drunk. It needs to be discovered why the girlfriend didn't take monogamy as seriously as the OP does. Her cheating could signal the possibility of a lot of problems if there are not serious changes and there is still a wedding. Sounds like if the relationship is to be salvaged there needs to be a lot of work done. Of course, only CN knows for sure if that's something he feels is worth pursuing and, ultimately, that's his call. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_10.gif

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 20th 2008, 01:41 AM
I respectfully disagree with you on this point. Though it's not as permanent as the covenant of marriage, being in a relationship that has gotten to the point of engagement implies there is to be monogamy, particularly when it has been specifically discussed between the two parties that monogamy is expected and required in the relationship. I never did care much for those relationships that were "open" and both parties were free to date other people. What is the point in doing that if you actually want to be with the other person? Either date them or date somebody else, not both simultaneously. It's hard to really get to know a person if you are also dating other people. It's much easier to get to know one person at a time without being distracted by others and complicating things. You're not free to screw around just because you don't have a wedding ring on your finger. I'm pretty certain if you were dating somebody and they cheated on you, your reaction would not be, "Oh, well. It's ok. It's not like we are married or anything." :rolleyes: As far as forgiveness being extended to a wayward girlfriend...CN needs to forgive her, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has to reconcile the relationship. Maybe the relationship can be salvaged and maybe it can't. Sounds like drinking is a problem here, though her infidelity can't be entirely blamed on the booze. After all, alcohol can't make you do anything you weren't already somewhat willing to do before you get drunk. Alcohol impairs the part of the brain that controls the ability to exercise restraint. People make much more impulsive decisions while blitzed because all their inhibitions are loosened up. If one is turned on by somebody other than their boyfriend but are able to avoid acting on that attraction while sober, all that control goes out the window while one is drunk. It needs to be discovered why the girlfriend didn't take monogamy as seriously as the OP does. Her cheating could signal the possibility of a lot of problems if there are not serious changes and there is still a wedding. Sounds like if the relationship is to be salvaged there needs to be a lot of work done. Of course, only CN knows for sure if that's something he feels is worth pursuing and, ultimately, that's his call. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_10.gif

100% agree! Married or not, adultery/cheating is adultery/cheating. It's a betrayal of trust and a blatant disrespect to the relationship.