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yoSAMite
Mar 13th 2008, 03:23 AM
I'd be interested in knowing the different views of what event, time period or whatever triggers the 2nd Coming, the Glorious Appearing. I'm not talking about the rapture in itself, but the return to earth by Jesus.

I'll start.

As a pre-tribber I think that what triggers Jesus return is the fulfillment of Hosea 5:15 "I will go [and] return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

I also believe that this prophecy will be fulfilled by the Jewish nation at some point. I admit to not knowing exactly how this is accomplished, but I do believe it is the last day of the coming Daniel's 70th week.

Thanks for any other ideas.

matthew94
Mar 13th 2008, 03:36 AM
I think the completion of the mission of evangelism coupled with the completion of the maturity of the church is what provokes the 2nd Coming.

ShirleyFord
Mar 13th 2008, 03:47 AM
What causes 2nd Coming?

I believe that the Second Coming of Christ is pre-determined by God just as His First Coming was.

Jesus said that the Father knew the day of His Second Coming way back when He walked the earth.


Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Jesus will Come back when it is time. It will be the right time according to His sovereign will.


Shirley

quiet dove
Mar 13th 2008, 04:46 AM
I do not believe the Church will prepare the earth for His return, I do not believe Israel acknowledging her sin will bring Him either.

As far as what triggers Christ Second Advent, I agree with what Shirley said. It will all be according to an already determined time frame, according to His sovereign will, just like His First Advent.

brakelite
Mar 13th 2008, 07:38 AM
I am to be convinced that the 'time' spoken of by Jesus refers to chronological time. I tend to think that Jesus will come when His bride is ready. Like Mathew I believe it will be when the church has matured, and is prepared for eternity.

Lu 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


There will be 'last day Elijahs', used of God to help prepare a people for eternity. I believe this work is progressing now. But when it will be complete? Only God knows/
Brakelite

Amitheone
Mar 13th 2008, 12:33 PM
The 2nd coming of Jesus together with His caught up saints, will commence when God cut short the furnace of affliction of the Great Tribulation. He cut it short for the sake of the 144,000 Israelites. They will come with weeping as they will see their Teacher, whom they pierced, coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Among the 144,000 are the lame and those expectant mothers. God will gather them from the four corners of the earth, from the four winds of the Earth, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, from Elam, Shinar, Hamath and from the Islands of the sea.

Understand that the Great Tribulation is a great cosmic calamity where a super massive black hole will swallow everything up and dissolve everything with fervent heat. The constellation and the stars will not give off light, for nothing can escape a black hole, not even light. The earth will be completely devastated due to this event. The atmosphere will recede and oxygen level will fall. The earth will be shaken by enormous earthquakes and mountains and islands obliterated. There will be a devastating hail storm with each stone weighing a hundred pounds like stars falling from heaven to earth. So fearful was this plague that men cursed God for the severity of the hailstorm.

Just like in Noah's time, the world was devastated with a flood. This time the whole universe and the earth will be burned up by fire. For God will not only shake the earth, but also heaven.

If this event was allowed to take its full course, no one would survive, but for the sake of the 144,000 house of Jacob, God delayed this event. For God will forgive the remnant of Israel, the 144,000 Israelites. God will have compassion on His afflicted ones. For God's name sake He delayed His wrath, for the sake of His praises He held it back from the house of Jacob so as to not cut them off. God has refined them, though not as silver, God has tested them in the furnace of affliction. If God didn't spare the remnant of Jacob who was chosen according to the election of grace, they will suffer the same fate of Sodom and Gomorrah where they were burned by fire.

God needed to discipline the Israelites, but only with justice, they will not go unpunished. For Israel is guilty of Idolatry. They were unfaithful to God.

God will gather them one by one. Besides the 144,000 gathered, God will also gather still others with them. This "others" are those who came out of the Great Tribulation, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These are the "Multitudes in White Robes" from different nations, tribes, languages, and tongues.

All in all, there are 3 stages of redemption. The first are the saints who were caught up in heaven at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. They were caught up and transformed into immortality. They will not go through the furnace of affliction of the Great Tribulation. The second, God will delay the event of the Great Tribulation to gather the 144,000 Jews who were afflicted for a moment. After this, God will gather the multitude who wash their robes and made them white.

After this, the Wrath of the Lamb where the armies of the beast at Armageddon will be slaughtered by the Lord for all the atrocities they have done to the saints during the tribulation of those days, satan's war with the saints. Satan will greatly persecute the saints and behead them for they refuse to worship the beast and receive his marks. During these times, God will raise up the 2 witnesses to warn the world to repent of their idolatrous ways and to stop the atrocities they committed against the saints. They did not repent, and thus the 2 witnesses summoned the plagues which is written in the 7 plagues and the 7 trumpets.

Understand that the plagues and trumpets are parallel events, each event revealing different angles of the event. There are one and the same. They can be explained thoroughly with scientific knowledge.

Ex: Read and understand the 5th Trumpet and the 5th Plague. Bringing these two together, you will read a continues flow of the context:

”The Kingdom of the beast was darkened for the sun and the air were covered by the smoke of the pit. Out of the smoke, came locusts which have a sting of a scorpion. They were to hurt and torment men for five months. When it stings, men bit their tongues in agony and pain and they blasphemed God because of their pains and their sores caused by these creatures from the pit.”

Understand, during satan's war with the saints, the Christian group who was greatly persecuted by the atrocities committed and meted death by beheading are characteristic of the Church of Smyrna. For God told them not to be afraid of what they are about to suffer and to be faithful even to the point of death for God will give them the crown of life. There is also another Christian group that escaped the atrocities. They are characteristics of the Philadelphia church where they have kept God's commandments to endure patiently. God will keep them from the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world.

The Smyrnian Christians are the front liners where they boldly preach the gospel under the enemies nose. They bore the testimony of Jesus as witness to their enemies. They were not afraid so as to shrink from death. They eat death for breakfast. The Philadelphian Christians are the ones who escaped the prosecutions. They are still able to preach the gospel to invite as many people as they can to the kingdom of God. These two characters of Christians will preach the gospel until the time of the end. The Smyrnian Christians will be persecuted until the number of them killed were completed and then the end will come - The Great Tribulation. God's vengeance on the evil deeds men has committed against the saints and those who did not repent.

Understand that the Philadelphian Christians are the ones who are left alive. They will also be caught up in heaven to meet the Lord together with the Smyrnian Christians who were killed who were caught up first. All the saints were caught up at the start of the Great Tribulation. In heaven, they were told by God to enter to their rooms and to shut the doors until God's wrath has passed by. These rooms were prepared by God for His children for in His house there are many rooms.

The rest of the 5 churches are those Christians who are in need of repentance.

On the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation continues. It was only delayed for the sake of the Israelites. The cosmic calamity continues and the Lamb will slaughter all His enemies and will command His transformed Saints to execute judgment upon all godless men for every evil deed they have committed. Not only they will experience the wrath of Lamb, but the calamity of the Great Tribulation, the great furnace of affliction.

For every men will pay for his sin double.

markdrums
Mar 13th 2008, 02:08 PM
The 2nd coming of Jesus together with His caught up saints, will commence when God cut short the furnace of affliction of the Great Tribulation. He cut it short for the sake of the 144,000 Israelites. They will come with weeping as they will see their Teacher, whom they pierced, coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Among the 144,000 are the lame and those expectant mothers. God will gather them from the four corners of the earth, from the four winds of the Earth, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, from Elam, Shinar, Hamath and from the Islands of the sea.

Understand that the Great Tribulation is a great cosmic calamity where a super massive black hole will swallow everything up and dissolve everything with fervent heat. The constellation and the stars will not give off light, for nothing can escape a black hole, not even light. The earth will be completely devastated due to this event. The atmosphere will recede and oxygen level will fall. The earth will be shaken by enormous earthquakes and mountains and islands obliterated. There will be a devastating hail storm with each stone weighing a hundred pounds like stars falling from heaven to earth. So fearful was this plague that men cursed God for the severity of the hailstorm.

Just like in Noah's time, the world was devastated with a flood. This time the whole universe and the earth will be burned up by fire. For God will not only shake the earth, but also heaven.

If this event was allowed to take its full course, no one would survive, but for the sake of the 144,000 house of Jacob, God delayed this event. For God will forgive the remnant of Israel, the 144,000 Israelites. God will have compassion on His afflicted ones. For God's name sake He delayed His wrath, for the sake of His praises He held it back from the house of Jacob so as to not cut them off. God has refined them, though not as silver, God has tested them in the furnace of affliction. If God didn't spare the remnant of Jacob who was chosen according to the election of grace, they will suffer the same fate of Sodom and Gomorrah where they were burned by fire.

God needed to discipline the Israelites, but only with justice, they will not go unpunished. For Israel is guilty of Idolatry. They were unfaithful to God.

God will gather them one by one. Besides the 144,000 gathered, God will also gather still others with them. This "others" are those who came out of the Great Tribulation, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These are the "Multitudes in White Robes" from different nations, tribes, languages, and tongues.

All in all, there are 3 stages of redemption. The first are the saints who were caught up in heaven at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. They were caught up and transformed into immortality. They will not go through the furnace of affliction of the Great Tribulation. The second, God will delay the event of the Great Tribulation to gather the 144,000 Jews who were afflicted for a moment. After this, God will gather the multitude who wash their robes and made them white.

After this, the Wrath of the Lamb where the armies of the beast at Armageddon will be slaughtered by the Lord for all the atrocities they have done to the saints during the tribulation of those days, satan's war with the saints. Satan will greatly persecute the saints and behead them for they refuse to worship the beast and receive his marks. During these times, God will raise up the 2 witnesses to warn the world to repent of their idolatrous ways and to stop the atrocities they committed against the saints. They did not repent, and thus the 2 witnesses summoned the plagues which is written in the 7 plagues and the 7 trumpets.

Understand that the plagues and trumpets are parallel events, each event revealing different angles of the event. There are one and the same. They can be explained thoroughly with scientific knowledge.

Ex: Read and understand the 5th Trumpet and the 5th Plague. Bringing these two together, you will read a continues flow of the context:

”The Kingdom of the beast was darkened for the sun and the air were covered by the smoke of the pit. Out of the smoke, came locusts which have a sting of a scorpion. They were to hurt and torment men for five months. When it stings, men bit their tongues in agony and pain and they blasphemed God because of their pains and their sores caused by these creatures from the pit.”

Understand, during satan's war with the saints, the Christian group who was greatly persecuted by the atrocities committed and meted death by beheading are characteristic of the Church of Smyrna. For God told them not to be afraid of what they are about to suffer and to be faithful even to the point of death for God will give them the crown of life. There is also another Christian group that escaped the atrocities. They are characteristics of the Philadelphia church where they have kept God's commandments to endure patiently. God will keep them from the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world.

The Smyrnian Christians are the front liners where they boldly preach the gospel under the enemies nose. They bore the testimony of Jesus as witness to their enemies. They were not afraid so as to shrink from death. They eat death for breakfast. The Philadelphian Christians are the ones who escaped the prosecutions. They are still able to preach the gospel to invite as many people as they can to the kingdom of God. These two characters of Christians will preach the gospel until the time of the end. The Smyrnian Christians will be persecuted until the number of them killed were completed and then the end will come - The Great Tribulation. God's vengeance on the evil deeds men has committed against the saints and those who did not repent.

Understand that the Philadelphian Christians are the ones who are left alive. They will also be caught up in heaven to meet the Lord together with the Smyrnian Christians who were killed who were caught up first. All the saints were caught up at the start of the Great Tribulation. In heaven, they were told by God to enter to their rooms and to shut the doors until God's wrath has passed by. These rooms were prepared by God for His children for in His house there are many rooms.

The rest of the 5 churches are those Christians who are in need of repentance.

On the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation continues. It was only delayed for the sake of the Israelites. The cosmic calamity continues and the Lamb will slaughter all His enemies and will command His transformed Saints to execute judgment upon all godless men for every evil deed they have committed. Not only they will experience the wrath of Lamb, but the calamity of the Great Tribulation, the great furnace of affliction.

For every men will pay for his sin double.

Unless I misunderstand what you wrote...

The biggest question I have (for now) is, What does Modern-Day Israel have to do with piercing Jesus 2000 years ago?
Revelation says that "Those who pierced him will see him", in the CONTEXT of the verses.
There's no additional plan or punishment for "Israel- the nation".

matthew94
Mar 13th 2008, 05:33 PM
Ephesians 4
so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Christ will return when the body of Christ has matured, attaining the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. According to this verse, it seems to me, Christ is waiting for the QUALITY of the church to reach its completion.


2 Peter 3
You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.

How can we speed its coming? It seems to me, from this verse, that we can speed the coming of the day of God by living holy and godly lives. Once again, the QUALITY of the church provokes the 2nd Coming.


2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The main reason, of course, for God's delaying His 2nd Coming is that He wants everyone to be saved. In other words, He's waiting for the QUANTITY of the church to grow.

It seems to me that God is waiting for the ultimate balance of QUALITY & QUANTITY in the church. When this ultimate balance is finally reached, Christ will return.

quiet dove
Mar 13th 2008, 07:00 PM
I tend to think that Jesus will come when His bride is ready. Like Mathew I believe it will be when the church has matured, and is prepared for eternity.


People keep being born and dieing, not living usually even 100 years though some do. Why will the last batch of folks have the Church mature enough for Christ to come back. Is the Church getting stronger, smarter, more obedient? Is the world getting better? How is the Church getting more mature and how does that thought harmonize with these verses:

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Now obviously the true believers will still endure sound doctrine, however, as a whole, within the professing church there are many who no longer have a foundation in sound doctrine

I mean what will signify or change the Church to be mature enough for Christ to return and what scriptures testify to that being the case?

quiet dove
Mar 13th 2008, 07:14 PM
Christ will return when the body of Christ has matured, attaining the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. According to this verse, it seems to me, Christ is waiting for the QUALITY of the church to reach its completion.

How can we speed its coming? It seems to me, from this verse, that we can speed the coming of the day of God by living holy and godly lives. Once again, the QUALITY of the church provokes the 2nd Coming.

The main reason, of course, for God's delaying His 2nd Coming is that He wants everyone to be saved. In other words, He's waiting for the QUANTITY of the church to grow.

It seems to me that God is waiting for the ultimate balance of QUALITY & QUANTITY in the church. When this ultimate balance is finally reached, Christ will return.

So what you are saying is that believers are getting better and better as time goes on? That all this ecumenical togetherness is a good thing? How can it be a good thing if it is not founded in sound doctrine? Didn't many die in order to get back to sound doctrine, ...the Reformation?

Unity is worthless if it is not on the solid ground of solid doctrine and if we take a good look around we see unity taking priority, not sound doctrine.

What exactly will make the Church today or tomorrow so much better than the many many God fearing believers who have already gone home

matthew94
Mar 13th 2008, 07:36 PM
So what you are saying is that believers are getting better and better as time goes on? That all this ecumenical togetherness is a good thing? How can it be a good thing if it is not founded in sound doctrine? Didn't many die in order to get back to sound doctrine, ...the Reformation?

Unity is worthless if it is not on the solid ground of solid doctrine and if we take a good look around we see unity taking priority, not sound doctrine.

What exactly will make the Church today or tomorrow so much better than the many many God fearing believers who have already gone home

You seem to be making the mistake of speaking of the visible and invisible church synonymously, eh? The true (invisible) church can get better and better even while the institutional (visible) church gets more and more watered down. Some ecumenism is good (when it is based on the love of Christ and sound doctrine) while other ecumenism is bad (when it is based on unity at the expense of sound doctrine).

But, in truth, all I was saying was Scripture verses and then commenting on what they meant. What do you think of those verses? Were my comments incorrect?

In Christ,
matthew

My heart's Desire
Mar 13th 2008, 07:36 PM
Unless I misunderstand what you wrote...

The biggest question I have (for now) is, What does Modern-Day Israel have to do with piercing Jesus 2000 years ago?
Revelation says that "Those who pierced him will see him", in the CONTEXT of the verses.
There's no additional plan or punishment for "Israel- the nation".Never thought of this before exactly.
I know that He was before the court of the Jews and since He was pierced for the sins of all, in a way, we are all guilty of this.\
But historically was He not actually pierced by the Romans?

My heart's Desire
Mar 13th 2008, 07:57 PM
I'm really not sure of the verse you give but it appears that Armageddon and the armies being gathered there is what happens right before Jesus returns at the 2cd coming itself. So, what gathers them together? I know they come to fight against the Lord, but maybe they don't see it that way until they see Him on the horse coming from the clouds. If so, what it is, other than the Lord gathering them there, that compels them to come? Perhaps they come to attack Israel first until the Lord appears there?

quiet dove
Mar 13th 2008, 08:53 PM
You seem to be making the mistake of speaking of the visible and invisible church synonymously, eh? The true (invisible) church can get better and better even while the institutional (visible) church gets more and more watered down. Some ecumenism is good (when it is based on the love of Christ and sound doctrine) while other ecumenism is bad (when it is based on unity at the expense of sound doctrine).

But, in truth, all I was saying was Scripture verses and then commenting on what they meant. What do you think of those verses? Were my comments incorrect?

In Christ,
matthew


Why would the true church become better now or in the future than all the past true believers through out history though?

I do believe you are taking these verses (Eph 4) in the wrong way or shall I say to far. Believers need to be well grounded to not be tossed to and fro, and those well grounded will find unity in Truth, however, I disagree that we can hasten His return in that way, but no doubt, for us to be a united front would most certainly be a blessing. One can compare that blessing to what is found in a good church group, or say, even this board. The blessing of spending time with those in the Body of Christ.

In 2 Pet 3:4 I believe it teaches that the time that passes inbetween the promise of His return and His return will, to us be lengthy, cause many to doubt that He is truly going to return. I dont see this particular verse as supportive to your arguement.

In 2 Pet 3:12 I think to us the word hasten or hastening is misleading from what other scripture teaches. We are told to run a good race, diligent, eagerly. In searching the word that is translated hasten/hastening, it seems more a command to diligently and eagerly study and prepare for the day of His return. Not necessarily that we can "hasten" or "speed up" His return.

The thing is, through out the entire Bible it has always been Gods timing, not ours, the only thing we could or can do to change a plan(for lack of a better way of putting it) would be like when Israel was called to repentence. However, God also has let us know enough that we know there is a time table, a limit.
2Co 6:2 For He says: "IN AN ACCEPTABLE TIME I HAVE HEARD YOU, AND IN THE DAY OF SALVATION I HAVE HELPED YOU." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Rev 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:

I guess what I am trying to say is we should not dilly dally around about seeking His will and striving to live according to His will, we should diligently or hastily seek with every part or our being to learn and live according to His will, hastily seeking to be obedient and to know Him. There is a time to be born and a time to die, any one of us may be living at our last day which would be the last chance in this life we have to seek Him in love and obedience and to do His will. This would not equate to hastening His return but hastening our desire toward Him.

matthew94
Mar 13th 2008, 09:31 PM
Why would the true church become better now or in the future than all the past true believers through out history though?

First of all, the true church INCLUDES the past true believers! Just b/c some have died doesn't mean they are no longer part of the church. In fact, you could argue that they are the strongest part!

But to answer your question very simply, the reason the church will become stronger is because Jesus is perfecting the church. He's working on the church. And so Paul said so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.


I do believe you are taking these verses (Eph 4) in the wrong way or shall I say to far. Believers need to be well grounded to not be tossed to and fro, and those well grounded will find unity in Truth, however, I disagree that we can hasten His return in that way

Why not? I believe our Heavenly Father thinks of humanity as His child (as many biblical metaphors suggest). Additionally, we are said to be the BODY of Christ. If we are a child and/or a body, wouldn't our reaching MATURITY be a big deal in God's eyes? Wouldn't it be a key point in history?


In 2 Pet 3:4 I believe it teaches that the time that passes inbetween the promise of His return and His return will, to us be lengthy, cause many to doubt that He is truly going to return. I dont see this particular verse as supportive to your argument.

I didn't quote 3:4, though that is in the context. I did quote 3:9 which can't be debated. God, indeed, does not want anyone to perish. And that fact is clearly linked to why God is delaying: "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish"


In 2 Pet 3:12 I think to us the word hasten or hastening is misleading from what other scripture teaches. We are told to run a good race, diligent, eagerly. In searching the word that is translated hasten/hastening, it seems more a command to diligently and eagerly study and prepare for the day of His return. Not necessarily that we can "hasten" or "speed up" His return.

First, what 'other Scriptures' are you referring to?
Second, it could be interpreted that way, but 'could' doesn't mean 'should.' And even if it should, you'd still have to explain away the biblical metaphors that are used for the church. A child grows to maturity. A body grows to maturity. A temple is built and, at some point, completed. This is the goal. God is waiting for it to come to pass. He is not passively waiting, but actively involved in the perfecting of this body, this temple.


The thing is, through out the entire Bible it has always been Gods timing, not ours, the only thing we could or can do to change a plan(for lack of a better way of putting it) would be like when Israel was called to repentence. However, God also has let us know enough that we know there is a time table, a limit.
2Co 6:2 For He says: "IN AN ACCEPTABLE TIME I HAVE HEARD YOU, AND IN THE DAY OF SALVATION I HAVE HELPED YOU." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Rev 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Nothing I said changes that fact. It is God's timing, not ours. God's timing, though, is when He sees that the church is fit, both qualitatively and quantitatively, as shown by His Word. We do not know when that time will be. It will be at the right time.


I guess what I am trying to say is we should not dilly dally around about seeking His will and striving to live according to His will, we should diligently or hastily seek with every part or our being to learn and live according to His will, hastily seeking to be obedient and to know Him. There is a time to be born and a time to die, any one of us may be living at our last day which would be the last chance in this life we have to seek Him in love and obedience and to do His will. This would not equate to hastening His return but hastening our desire toward Him.

Our application is the same. I agree. I just think our calling to do what you have just said has a bigger purpose.

brakelite
Mar 14th 2008, 12:18 AM
People keep being born and dieing, not living usually even 100 years though some do. Why will the last batch of folks have the Church mature enough for Christ to come back. Is the Church getting stronger, smarter, more obedient? Is the world getting better? How is the Church getting more mature and how does that thought harmonize with these verses:

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Now obviously the true believers will still endure sound doctrine, however, as a whole, within the professing church there are many who no longer have a foundation in sound doctrine

I mean what will signify or change the Church to be mature enough for Christ to return and what scriptures testify to that being the case?

Mt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

It is clear that not all the church will be ready. Many will be lost, despite being in the church and "doing" church. Note in the first parable the five virgins who missed out were expecting the second coming. They had lamps, (the Bible), but they lacked the Holy Spirit and the work He does in the life. That is sanctification, and the teaching of truth, and the provision of power. These things they lacked and the door was shut on them with the words of the Lord ringing in their ears "I never knew you".

The second parable is even more revealing. These were doing what appeared to be all the right things. Except for one crucial and important point. Obedience. They were not doing the will of the Father. These also had the door shut in their faces and the words of the Lord bouncing around in their collective mind, "Depart from Me you workers of iniquity! I didn't know you either!

If we need any more proof that salvation is conditional these 2 parables ought to be enough. Not all in the church will be saved. How important, how essential for all of us "to work out our salvation with fear and trembling".
How vital that our relationship with Jesus be tight, and that we allow nothing to separate us from Him. He will always do His part. He will always remain faithful, and His love will never diminish, but it is so important that we ensure we remain abiding in Him.We must do our part. Unlike the five virgins, and unlike those who thought they'd done it all, but lacked what counted most. It cost them eternity.

Brakelite

My heart's Desire
Mar 14th 2008, 01:51 AM
Mt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

It is clear that not all the church will be ready. Many will be lost, despite being in the church and "doing" church. Note in the first parable the five virgins who missed out were expecting the second coming. They had lamps, (the Bible), but they lacked the Holy Spirit and the work He does in the life. That is sanctification, and the teaching of truth, and the provision of power. These things they lacked and the door was shut on them with the words of the Lord ringing in their ears "I never knew you".

The second parable is even more revealing. These were doing what appeared to be all the right things. Except for one crucial and important point. Obedience. They were not doing the will of the Father. These also had the door shut in their faces and the words of the Lord bouncing around in their collective mind, "Depart from Me you workers of iniquity! I didn't know you either!

If we need any more proof that salvation is conditional these 2 parables ought to be enough. Not all in the church will be saved. How important, how essential for all of us "to work out our salvation with fear and trembling".
How vital that our relationship with Jesus be tight, and that we allow nothing to separate us from Him. He will always do His part. He will always remain faithful, and His love will never diminish, but it is so important that we ensure we remain abiding in Him.We must do our part. Unlike the five virgins, and unlike those who thought they'd done it all, but lacked what counted most. It cost them eternity.

Brakelite
But some do not believe these verses apply to the Church and I am one of them.
You will notice that He says "I never knew you"? They were never saved. I think if they had of been He would have said it differently. Plus, we all know our works do not gain us entrance into heaven anyway. The work of the Father is to believe on the One whom He sent, Jesus.

On the 10 virgin verse, I'm not quite as sure, but I remember when the Jewish leaders wondered why Jesus disciples did not fast as John's disciples did, He asked them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast....NASB
I notice that He calls them "attendants" or as the KJV has it "the children of the bedchamber". In John 3:29 John says He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. John says the bridegroom has the bride and that he himself is a friend of the bridegroom.
See, I believe this has something about the Jewish people, not the church. If John is saved, then why doesn't he identify himself as part of the bride instead of the friend.
As other threads bear out we could go on an eternity with these verses, but that's all I wanted to say. I don't think they are Church verses.

RevLogos
Mar 14th 2008, 01:52 AM
I used to think the end-times were something we could avoid. Think of how wonderful it would be if everyone were saved, that Christianity flourished throughout the world.

But as I have learned more about Satan, I have another theory of what causes the second coming. Satan, for all his evils, also suffers from the same afflictions he brings on to others. Namely, he gets impatient. He is not winning, never able to control all the world, and he gets impatient. Then he does things he is not allowed to do.

In many verses, in the OT and New, we learn the fallen angels are bound. They are limited in what they can do. Recall Satan has to ask permission of God to afflict Job. God gives Satan additional freedoms, but is still told not to kill Job.

When Satan becomes impatient, he and the fallen angels exceed their bounds. This causes the beginnings of the tribulations. God knows this will happen, it must happen, because God understands Satan.

Satan and the fallen angels, exceeding their bounds, directly killing humans, is what starts the sequence of events that brings on the second coming.

Just a theory.

My heart's Desire
Mar 14th 2008, 02:08 AM
It may be just the way it was put but I don't think "anything CAUSES the 2nd coming" considering God knows beginning to end. He will come just as He has always promised.

Amitheone
Mar 14th 2008, 03:30 AM
Unless I misunderstand what you wrote...

The biggest question I have (for now) is, What does Modern-Day Israel have to do with piercing Jesus 2000 years ago?
Revelation says that "Those who pierced him will see him", in the CONTEXT of the verses.
There's no additional plan or punishment for "Israel- the nation".
According to the strict context of the parallel verses below which pertains to Jesus' 2nd coming and Israel whom they pierced the Lord, it says:

Zechariah 12 - RSV

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.

Revelation 1 - RSV

7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

...

According to the the verses above, the 12 tribes of Israel, the house of David, the house of Jacob, are the ones who pierced Him. How did they pierce Jesus, according to context? We read:

Jeremiah 4 - NIV

1 "If you will return, O Israel, return to me," declares the Lord. "If you put your detestable idols out of my sight and no longer go astray, 2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way you swear, 'As surely as the Lord lives,' then the nations will be blessed by him and in him they will glory." 3 This is what the Lord says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem: "Break up your unplowed ground and do not sow among thorns.

4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done-- burn with no one to quench it.

Jeremiah 3 - NIV

6 During the reign of King Josiah, the Lord said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the Lord. 11 The Lord said to me, "Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah.12 Go, proclaim this message toward the north: "'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the Lord, 'I will frown on you no longer, for I am merciful,' declares the Lord, 'I will not be angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt-- you have rebelled against the Lord your God, you have scattered your favors to foreign gods under every spreading tree, and have not obeyed me,'" declares the Lord.

...

The Lord was frequently crying out to Israel to return to Him through His saints. Israel guilt was idolatry. She has favored foreign gods instead of the Lord. The Lord was trying to warn them to get out of idolatry, to come out of Babylon, the mother of idolatry and all the abominations of the earth. God was trying to save them from His burning wrath, as written:

Jerimiah 51:45 – NIV

"Come out of her, my people! Run for your lives! Run from the fierce anger of the Lord.

Revelation 18:4 - NIV

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

But did they listen to the Lord? Did they heed His warnings? As written:

Isaiah 65:12 - NIV

I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me."

Jeremiah 3 - NIV

7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the Lord.

...

They pierced the Lord to His heart. The Lord was grieved. Israel did not heed the Lord's warning to come out of idolatry. They did not return to the Lord. Israel now has to face the burning anger of the Lord. As written:

Isaiah 48 - NIV

9 For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off. 10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.



The Lord needed to discipline Israel for her sins. So, God sent them to the furnace of affliction, the Great Tribulation, to refine them. God has given them the bread of adversity and the water of affliction. As written:

Isaiah 30 – RSV

20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet your Teacher will not hide himself any more, but your eyes shall see your Teacher.

Jeremiah 30:7 - NIV

How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, he but he will be saved out of it.

God, however, had mercy on Israel. He delayed His wrath and cut short this terrible event of the Great Tribulation, the furnace of affliction where everything will be dissolve with fervent heat. This will be the time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. If God did not cut short or delayed this event, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect, the 12 tribes of Israel, he delayed His wrath.

As written:

Matthew 24 RSV

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Isaiah 48 - NIV

9 For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off. 10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.



Israel will finally call on the name of the Lord. For God will pour out on them a spirit of compassion and supplication, the Holy Spirit, for He had mercy on them. They were called according to the election of grace.

As written:

Zechariah 12 - RSV

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.

Joel 2 - KJV

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Romans 11 - KJV

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 9 - RSV

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved;

Isaiah 10 - RSV

21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.

The remnant of Israel, the house of Jacob, the 144,000 Jews, will finally call on the name of the Lord, for God had mercy on them and poured out the Holy Spirit on them. They were actually sealed just prior to the Great Tribulation, the furnace of affliction. As written:

Revelation 7 - RSV

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads."

But they will have to go through it for God will not let them go unpunished. He will discipline them, but only with justice. As written:

Jeremiah 30 - NIV

11 I am with you and will save you,' declares the Lord. 'Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'

These are the 12 tribes that were sealed with the Holy Spirit:

Revelation 7 - RSV

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel,

5 twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Judah,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Reuben,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Gad,
6 twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Naph'tali,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Manas'seh,
7 twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Levi,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Is'sachar,
8 twelve thousand of the tribe of Zeb'ulun,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Joseph,
twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Benjamin.

This sealing or the pouring of the Holy Spirit, the spirit of compassion and supplication, will come after they saw the catching up event of the saints to heaven. As written:

Revelation 11 - KJV

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The remnant were afraid, and when they were sealed with the Holy Spirit, they gave glory to the God of heaven. This is the start of the Great Tribulation where the Lord will shake the earth with a great earthquake. The Lord will not only shake the Earth, but also heaven. As written:

Hebrews 12

26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."

Isaiah 24 - RSV

6 Therefore a curse devours the earth, and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left.

Revelation 6 - NIV

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Isaiah 34 – NIV

4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

The verses above are just a few verses which describes the event of the Great Tribulation.

But God will delay this for awhile for the sake of the elect.

quiet dove
Mar 14th 2008, 03:52 AM
It is clear that not all the church will be ready. Many will be lost, despite being in the church and "doing" church. Note in the first parable the five virgins who missed out were expecting the second coming. They had lamps, (the Bible), but they lacked the Holy Spirit and the work He does in the life. That is sanctification, and the teaching of truth, and the provision of power. These things they lacked and the door was shut on them with the words of the Lord ringing in their ears "I never knew you".

The second parable is even more revealing. These were doing what appeared to be all the right things. Except for one crucial and important point. Obedience. They were not doing the will of the Father. These also had the door shut in their faces and the words of the Lord bouncing around in their collective mind, "Depart from Me you workers of iniquity! I didn't know you either!



My heart's desire
You will notice that He says "I never knew you"? They were never saved.
I agree here with My heart's desire, she makes an excellent point, He NEVER knew them, they were never apart of the Body of Christ the Church. They may have shown up in the buildings called churches, but they were never members of the Body of Christ. Not to mention those who do this and do that and spouting of Holy Spirit and Jesus, but they do not believe the Gospel.

markdrums
Mar 14th 2008, 08:38 AM
Here's a fresh perspective.
Rather than dishing out half the scriptures in the Bible, I'm gonna zing a "thought" out to Y'all. ;)

We read that God knows everyone whose name is written in the book of life. He knew even before he formed the Heavens & the Earth.
So, keeping that in mind;
WHO & WHEN is the "last person"? (WE have no idea... but GOD does.)
It won't be BEFORE he or she is born.. (or at least, conceived in the womb)

Hmmmm... sometimes being up too late can make you wonder about things a WHOLE lot differently than you would otherwise.... :hmm:

:rofl::lol:

I have GOT TO get some sleep!!!! LOL!!

markdrums
Mar 14th 2008, 08:56 AM
According to the strict context of the parallel verses below which pertains to Jesus' 2nd coming and Israel whom they pierced the Lord, it says:

Zechariah 12 - RSV

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.

Revelation 1 - RSV

7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

...

According to the the verses above, the 12 tribes of Israel, the house of David, the house of Jacob, are the ones who pierced Him. How did they pierce Jesus, according to context? We read:

Jeremiah 4 - NIV

1 "If you will return, O Israel, return to me," declares the Lord. "If you put your detestable idols out of my sight and no longer go astray, 2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way you swear, 'As surely as the Lord lives,' then the nations will be blessed by him and in him they will glory." 3 This is what the Lord says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem: "Break up your unplowed ground and do not sow among thorns.

4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done-- burn with no one to quench it.

Jeremiah 3 - NIV

6 During the reign of King Josiah, the Lord said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the Lord. 11 The Lord said to me, "Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah.12 Go, proclaim this message toward the north: "'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the Lord, 'I will frown on you no longer, for I am merciful,' declares the Lord, 'I will not be angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt-- you have rebelled against the Lord your God, you have scattered your favors to foreign gods under every spreading tree, and have not obeyed me,'" declares the Lord.

...

The Lord was frequently crying out to Israel to return to Him through His saints. Israel guilt was idolatry. She has favored foreign gods instead of the Lord. The Lord was trying to warn them to get out of idolatry, to come out of Babylon, the mother of idolatry and all the abominations of the earth. God was trying to save them from His burning wrath, as written:

Jerimiah 51:45 – NIV

"Come out of her, my people! Run for your lives! Run from the fierce anger of the Lord.

************************************************** *****
Edited / shortened for easier reading
************************************************** *****


The verses above are just a few verses which describes the event of the Great Tribulation.


Actually, no.
MOST of these pertained to events from MANY MANY years ago.
God has already dealt with "Israel - the Nation".
All the judgment language from the Old Testament is used all throughout the New Testament too.... because the 1st century audience was very familiar with the meanings of it. They understood certain key words & phrases indicated "Impending judgment".

So we can't look at similar sounding passages & automatically apply them to FUTURE FULFILLMENT / Revelation / End Times.

markdrums
Mar 14th 2008, 08:57 AM
**** Never Mind this one****
.... internet issue /computer originally auto copied and posted an extra time

Amitheone
Mar 14th 2008, 01:19 PM
Actually, no.
MOST of these pertained to events from MANY MANY years ago.
God has already dealt with "Israel - the Nation".
All the judgment language from the Old Testament is used all throughout the New Testament too.... because the 1st century audience was very familiar with the meanings of it. They understood certain key words & phrases indicated "Impending judgment".

So we can't look at similar sounding passages & automatically apply them to FUTURE FULFILLMENT / Revelation / End Times.I think you are badly misunderstanding the scriptures. Revelation interconnects with every passage of the Old Testament. You cannot read Revelation alone for the OT will show all the events which will transpire in the end times. They are the keys which opens the door of Revelation.

The OT is about 40-50% prophecy about the end times. It talks about the future.

If you understand science, you will understand the mechanism of all the cosmic calamities which were written in the OT. This will enable the reader to pinpoint exactly which events belongs to the future and not based on mere speculations.

Example:

Joel 3 – RSV

15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.

Isaiah 13 - RSV

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.

Isaiah 34 – NIV

4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

...

This is in the OT, obviously. Looking at this scientifically, do you really understand the magnitude of this calamity? The earth will cease to exist, even the universe. If this was written in the past, for the past, how come the earth and the universe still exist today?

All the stars of heaven and the constellation will not show light anymore as they will be dissolved. Not one star or two stars, but ALL the stars in heaven. Do you understand this in a scientific perspective? This specifically indicates a super massive black hole dissolving and swallowing up everything. In a black hole, not even light can escape so that the constellations and stars withdraw their light. Everything will be swallowed up and the black hole becomes so massive that it will dissolve everything with fervent heat. It will become extremely superheated. Everything will be utterly destroyed.

These verses are confirmed again in the NT:

2 Peter 3 – RSV

7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! ...



Understanding all these cosmic mechanisms, the only powerful force in the universe that is able to do this is a black hole. The whole universe will go into a singularity and it will cease to exists, it will pass away. This is what we call in science, the “big crunch.”


Scientific Translation:

…The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.

In a Black Hole, light traveling outwards towards an event horizon is pulled back by the very strong gravitational field, because of the warping of space-time inside the event horizon, regardless of the lack of a photon mass. This prevents light from ever escaping the Black Hole.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/030228a.html
(http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/030228a.html)
By definition a black hole is a region where matter collapses to infinite density, and where, as a result, the curvature of spacetime is extreme. Moreover, the intense gravitational field of the black hole prevents any light or other electromagnetic radiation from escaping.

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html

The Big Crunch

… All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved

… then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.



That is to say, there was a Big Bang; but there also will be a Big Crunch, at which time the matter of the Universe will collapse back onto itself. There will be a “bounce,” followed by another Big Bang, which will be followed by another Big Crunch, and this process will be repeated ad infinitum. In the Big Bang model, there is a permanent end; not so in the Oscillating Universe model, as Dr. Jastrow explained:

But many astronomers reject this picture of a dying Universe. They believe that the expansion of the Universe will not continue forever because gravity, pulling back on the outward-moving galaxies, must slow their retreat. If the pull of gravity is sufficiently strong, it may bring the expansion to a halt at some point in the future.

What will happen then? The answer is the crux of this theory. The elements of the Universe, held in a balance between the outward momentum of the primordial explosion and the inward force of gravity, stand momentarily at rest; but after the briefest instant, always drawn together by gravity, they commence to move toward one another. Slowly at first, and then with increasing momentum, the Universe collapses under the relentless pull of gravity. Soon the galaxies of the Cosmos rush toward one another with an inward movement as violent as the outward movement of their expansion when the Universe exploded earlier. After a sufficient time, they come into contact; their gases mix; their atoms are heated by compression; and the Universe returns to the heat and chaos from which it emerged many billions of years ago (1978, p. 118).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2199



Looking at this in a scientific perspective, the prophecies of the OT interconnects with the NT and confirmed by scientific knowledge.
As one can clearly understand, the calamities written in the OT are not meant for its time, it is for the future, for the end times.

If one misunderstand this as “already happened,” then one is really badly mistaken as the earth and the universe still exist today. People in the past don’t have enough understanding yet what these passages means as scientific knowledge still has to mature. It has today, in modern times, and by leaps and bounds increase significantly. Reading the Bible now is like reading a science book.

After the “big crunch” reaches its critical point where everything will be swallowed and dissolved, it will then explode like a big bang and a new universe will be created. This is again confirmed in these passages:

It is written:

Isaiah 65

17 Behold, I will create new heavensand a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Isaiah 66

22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the Lord, "so will your name and descendants endure.



God will create the new heavens or a new universe and He will make it lasts forever. There will no longer be the “Big Crunch” were everything will dissolved and destroyed.

Again, if one understand this as already happened just because its written in the old section of the Bible, he is badly mistaken because as the verses above indicates, God will create new heavens and a new earth. Are we all now on it? Are we all living in the new heavens and on the new earth? Most certainly not!

markdrums
Mar 14th 2008, 02:28 PM
I think you are badly misunderstanding the scriptures. Revelation interconnects with every passage of the Old Testament. You cannot read Revelation alone for the OT will show all the events which will transpire in the end times. They are the keys which opens the door of Revelation.

The OT is about 40-50% prophecy about the end times. It talks about the future.

If you understand science, you will understand the mechanism of all the cosmic calamities which were written in the OT. This will enable the reader to pinpoint exactly which events belongs to the future and not based on mere speculations.

Example:

Joel 3 – RSV

15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.

Isaiah 13 - RSV

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.

Isaiah 34 – NIV

4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

...

This is in the OT, obviously. Looking at this scientifically, do you really understand the magnitude of this calamity? The earth will cease to exist, even the universe. If this was written in the past, for the past, how come the earth and the universe still exist today?

All the stars of heaven and the constellation will not show light anymore as they will be dissolved. Not one star or two stars, but ALL the stars in heaven. Do you understand this in a scientific perspective? This specifically indicates a super massive black hole dissolving and swallowing up everything. In a black hole, not even light can escape so that the constellations and stars withdraw their light. Everything will be swallowed up and the black hole becomes so massive that it will dissolve everything with fervent heat. It will become extremely superheated. Everything will be utterly destroyed.

These verses are confirmed again in the NT:

2 Peter 3 – RSV

7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! ...



Understanding all these cosmic mechanisms, the only powerful force in the universe that is able to do this is a black hole. The whole universe will go into a singularity and it will cease to exists, it will pass away. This is what we call in science, the “big crunch.”


Scientific Translation:

…The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.

In a Black Hole, light traveling outwards towards an event horizon is pulled back by the very strong gravitational field, because of the warping of space-time inside the event horizon, regardless of the lack of a photon mass. This prevents light from ever escaping the Black Hole.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/030228a.html
(http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/030228a.html)
By definition a black hole is a region where matter collapses to infinite density, and where, as a result, the curvature of spacetime is extreme. Moreover, the intense gravitational field of the black hole prevents any light or other electromagnetic radiation from escaping.

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html

The Big Crunch

… All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved

… then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.



That is to say, there was a Big Bang; but there also will be a Big Crunch, at which time the matter of the Universe will collapse back onto itself. There will be a “bounce,” followed by another Big Bang, which will be followed by another Big Crunch, and this process will be repeated ad infinitum. In the Big Bang model, there is a permanent end; not so in the Oscillating Universe model, as Dr. Jastrow explained:

But many astronomers reject this picture of a dying Universe. They believe that the expansion of the Universe will not continue forever because gravity, pulling back on the outward-moving galaxies, must slow their retreat. If the pull of gravity is sufficiently strong, it may bring the expansion to a halt at some point in the future.

What will happen then? The answer is the crux of this theory. The elements of the Universe, held in a balance between the outward momentum of the primordial explosion and the inward force of gravity, stand momentarily at rest; but after the briefest instant, always drawn together by gravity, they commence to move toward one another. Slowly at first, and then with increasing momentum, the Universe collapses under the relentless pull of gravity. Soon the galaxies of the Cosmos rush toward one another with an inward movement as violent as the outward movement of their expansion when the Universe exploded earlier. After a sufficient time, they come into contact; their gases mix; their atoms are heated by compression; and the Universe returns to the heat and chaos from which it emerged many billions of years ago (1978, p. 118).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2199



Looking at this in a scientific perspective, the prophecies of the OT interconnects with the NT and confirmed by scientific knowledge.
As one can clearly understand, the calamities written in the OT are not meant for its time, it is for the future, for the end times.

If one misunderstand this as “already happened,” then one is really badly mistaken as the earth and the universe still exist today. People in the past don’t have enough understanding yet what these passages means as scientific knowledge still has to mature. It has today, in modern times, and by leaps and bounds increase significantly. Reading the Bible now is like reading a science book.

After the “big crunch” reaches its critical point where everything will be swallowed and dissolved, it will then explode like a big bang and a new universe will be created. This is again confirmed in these passages:

It is written:

Isaiah 65

17 Behold, I will create new heavensand a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Isaiah 66

22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the Lord, "so will your name and descendants endure.



God will create the new heavens or a new universe and He will make it lasts forever. There will no longer be the “Big Crunch” were everything will dissolved and destroyed.

Again, if one understand this as already happened just because its written in the old section of the Bible, he is badly mistaken because as the verses above indicates, God will create new heavens and a new earth. Are we all now on it? Are we all living in the new heavens and on the new earth? Most certainly not!

I understand science enough to comprehend what you're saying. :)
However, I do have to disagree that Revelation interconnects to every OT passage, & that most of the OT prophecies, when they were written, pertain to FAR-FUTURE events / fulfillment.

The reason the scriptures were so highly regarded by the prophets, & disciples, (as well as all other believers) was because most of the prophecies in the OT were verifiable through their fulfillment in their generations.

The OT sets the foundation & the language base for the NT prophecies. Especially the apocalyptic ones like in Revelation.
They (the disciples & NT readers) understood the significance of phrases like, "coming on clouds" and "the sun will be darkened & the moon will be blood red, & the stars won't give their light" as Judgment metaphors.

Look at Job 36: 26-33 Elihu is proclaiming the Glory & Power of God...


26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly.
29 Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?
30 Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.
31 For by them judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance.
32 With clouds he covereth the light; and commandeth it not to shine by the cloud that cometh betwixt. 33 The noise thereof sheweth concerning it, the cattle also concerning the vapour.

These passages have nothing to do with revelation, nor do they pertain to "End Times". But because this style of writing, & these phrases were used all through the scriptures, the readers for generations to come understood their meaning.

We need to have knowledge of the OT liguistic style in order to understand the same words & phrases when we see them in the NT.
;)

matthew94
Mar 14th 2008, 02:32 PM
I think you are badly misunderstanding the scriptures. Revelation interconnects with every passage of the Old Testament. You cannot read Revelation alone for the OT will show all the events which will transpire in the end times. They are the keys which opens the door of Revelation.

You have some truth here mixed with over-statement. Revelation does not interconnect with EVERY passage of the Old Testament. More than half of the verses in Revelation can be linked to verses in the Old Testament. But you are correct that a good understanding of the OT is essential to understanding the NT.


The OT is about 40-50% prophecy about the end times. It talks about the future.

Where did you find this piece of information? It is way off base in my opinion.


If you understand science, you will understand the mechanism of all the cosmic calamities which were written in the OT. This will enable the reader to pinpoint exactly which events belongs to the future and not based on mere speculations.

I think you are making a big mistake in that you are failing to recognize the literary genre of the Old Testament. It's not that your fellow poster doesn't understand science, it's that you don't seem to understand apocalyptic literature and/or hyperbole. In other words, the Bible uses catastrophic language to describe the fall of ancient world powers. Just b/c it uses catastrophic language doesn't mean the cosmological components of that language should be taken literally.


This is in the OT, obviously. Looking at this scientifically, do you really understand the magnitude of this calamity? The earth will cease to exist, even the universe. If this was written in the past, for the past, how come the earth and the universe still exist today?

We're not supposed to look at it scientifically. We are supposed to look at it according to genre. God used apocalyptic language to describe worldwide turmoil. We do the same thing today in the language of political upheaval and even in romantic poetry.

In the future there will indeed be a new heavens and earth, but that doesn't mean every passage in the Bible that mentions cosmic catastrophe is talking about that 1 event! Some of them are talking about past events with apocalyptic language.


There will be a “bounce,” followed by another Big Bang, which will be followed by another Big Crunch, and this process will be repeated ad infinitum. In the Big Bang model, there is a permanent end; not so in the Oscillating Universe model

It's a little unclear, in your post, which theory you belief. Certainly, I don't think a biblical case can be made for a repetition of big bang, big crunch repeated ad infinitum throughout eternity! Nor can one be made that the material world will come to a permanent end! So what is your view?


If one misunderstand this as “already happened,” then one is really badly mistaken as the earth and the universe still exist today. People in the past don’t have enough understanding yet what these passages means as scientific knowledge still has to mature. It has today, in modern times, and by leaps and bounds increase significantly. Reading the Bible now is like reading a science book.

Actually, you're the opposite of right! It's we who have stopped 'understanding' the apocalyptic genre in exchange for out over-literalness. We try to read the whole Bible in a wooden literal way (at least where possible) when in fact the Bible was written with a full rainbow of styles. The Ancient Jews knew very well that cosmic imagery was used to describe worldwide political changes. It's not that they didn't understand science. It's that we don't understand literature.


After the “big crunch” reaches its critical point where everything will be swallowed and dissolved, it will then explode like a big bang and a new universe will be created. This is again confirmed in these passages:

I think you are mistaken here as well. I think there is a far better biblical case for the purification and restoration of earth by God. Just like He'll use our actual bodies (which, by the way, would need to be around!) to produce our glorified bodies, He'll use the actual universe to produce the new heavens and earth.


Again, if one understand this as already happened just because its written in the old section of the Bible, he is badly mistaken because as the verses above indicates, God will create new heavens and a new earth. Are we all now on it? Are we all living in the new heavens and on the new earth? Most certainly not!

Nobody thinks it's already happened just b/c it's in the Old Testament section. People think it's already happened b/c that's what fits the context and genre of those passages. For those FEW (much less than 40 or 50%) OT passages that may, indeed, be talking about the yet future, we can await their fulfillment. But certainly not every OT passage that uses cosmic imagery is about the end of the world!

Mograce2U
Mar 14th 2008, 02:56 PM
Amitheone,
You seem to be saying that with further scientific knowledge, we will be able to understand the events related to us in scripture better.


If you understand science, you will understand the mechanism of all the cosmic calamities which were written in the OT. This will enable the reader to pinpoint exactly which events belongs to the future and not based on mere speculations.Yet the visible evidence of such calamities is not ever going to explain the spiritual power behind such things. What we see and know in the world by science and observation will never tell you what scripture does that God spoke the world into existence and sustains it by His power. The spiritual realm is the one from which this world came forth. It therefore contains the greater reality than this physical world which we see which is only a shadow of that world. And this world cannot tell us anything about that one, unless God reveals it to us, all it can do is give us hints.

The Big Bang or the Big Crunch is only what we imagine it was/ will be like when God sends His word forth into His creation. The power of God although not seen or able to be tested will have its evidence here, but that evidence is not the reality of what He alone does, it is only the result we observe.

The new heavens and new earth is one of spiritual substance which has nothing to do with stars and planets and such. The same spiritual substance which brought this shadowy world into being. When the shadows are all gone, only the spiritual will remain. And science has nothing to say about that world!

My heart's Desire
Mar 14th 2008, 04:47 PM
Here's a fresh perspective.
Rather than dishing out half the scriptures in the Bible, I'm gonna zing a "thought" out to Y'all. ;)

We read that God knows everyone whose name is written in the book of life. He knew even before he formed the Heavens & the Earth.
So, keeping that in mind;
WHO & WHEN is the "last person"? (WE have no idea... but GOD does.)
It won't be BEFORE he or she is born.. (or at least, conceived in the womb)

Hmmmm... sometimes being up too late can make you wonder about things a WHOLE lot differently than you would otherwise.... :hmm:

:rofl::lol:

I have GOT TO get some sleep!!!! LOL!!
Hey, you bring up a question in my mind. Is the last name in the book, the last one brought into the entire realm of heaven by salvation or is it the last one brought to Christ at the end of time? If one is pretrib and believes the last one brought into the church will precede the pretrib rapture of the church, and others are saved unto the end of time then that one brought into the Church is not the last in the book but one other that is at the end of time will be the very last one. ;) maybe?

Mograce2U
Mar 14th 2008, 05:22 PM
Hey, you bring up a question in my mind. Is the last name in the book, the last one brought into the entire realm of heaven by salvation or is it the last one brought to Christ at the end of time? If one is pretrib and believes the last one brought into the church will precede the pretrib rapture of the church, and others are saved unto the end of time then that one brought into the Church is not the last in the book but one other that is at the end of time will be the very last one. ;) maybe?The curious part to me is that names can be removed from the book of life. Is there two?

(Exo 32:32-33 KJV) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. {33} And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

(Rev 13:8 KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If every man who comes into the world is given earthly life and so is in the book of life, could it be that when their names are taken out is at death?

(Ezek 18:21 KJV) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

(John 8:21-24 KJV) Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. {22} Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. {23} And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. {24} I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If one dies in their sins it is because they have not received forgiveness for them. The ones who never knew Jesus are the ones who are going to die in their sins. The book of life in Rev. I think is saying not that their names were not written in the book at the foundation of the world, and that is why Jesus never knew them; but the Lamb is the one who was slain even before the world began. Therefore (IMO) those who at one time were given life and in the book, if they do not also come to know Jesus, will not remain in His book when death comes - hence they die in their sins and their names are thus removed.


It seems to reconcile it for me ;)

So as to which is the last name, would not seem to be the last one born, but the last one who had died - leaving only the others - ? Especially since at the judgment we see that all have died by then. And apparently a great number will go together when the fire falls from heaven.

quiet dove
Mar 14th 2008, 06:03 PM
The curious part to me is that names can be removed from the book of life. Is there two?

It seems to reconcile it for me ;)


I read about this somewhere, I will try to pick that out of my feeble memory and post it. It seems like they were saying there is two books. One that woud be everyone born and one that is the Lambs Book of Life where our names are written when we are saved. So I kinda agree with what you wrote only that instead of all the names being in both books from the start,


If one dies in their sins it is because they have not received forgiveness for them. The ones who never knew Jesus are the ones who are going to die in their sins. The book of life in Rev. I think is saying not that their names were not written in the book at the foundation of the world, and that is why Jesus never knew them; but the Lamb is the one who was slain even before the world began. Therefore (IMO) those who at one time were given life and in the book, if they do not also come to know Jesus, will not remain in His book when death comes - hence they die in their sins and their names are thus removed.
All the names are in one, but only those in Christ are in the Lambs Book of Life(once we are saved). Because we know that once we are in Christ, even if He would take our name out, He could not say "I never knew you". Because if a name is or ever was in His Book of Life, he would know them, right?

markdrums
Mar 14th 2008, 06:38 PM
I read about this somewhere, I will try to pick that out of my feeble memory and post it. It seems like they were saying there is two books. One that woud be everyone born and one that is the Lambs Book of Life where our names are written when we are saved. So I kinda agree with what you wrote only that instead of all the names being in both books from the start,


All the names are in one, but only those in Christ are in the Lambs Book of Life(once we are saved). Because we know that once we are in Christ, even if He would take our name out, He could not say "I never knew you". Because if a name is or ever was in His Book of Life, he would know them, right?


I've always just thought of The Lamb's Book of Life. The one with the names of everyone in Christ....

I hadn't thought of there being 2 separate books... although if that IS the case, then yes, I'm referring to the names of the "saved".

:)

Mograce2U
Mar 14th 2008, 06:58 PM
I read about this somewhere, I will try to pick that out of my feeble memory and post it. It seems like they were saying there is two books. One that woud be everyone born and one that is the Lambs Book of Life where our names are written when we are saved. So I kinda agree with what you wrote only that instead of all the names being in both books from the start,


All the names are in one, but only those in Christ are in the Lambs Book of Life(once we are saved). Because we know that once we are in Christ, even if He would take our name out, He could not say "I never knew you". Because if a name is or ever was in His Book of Life, he would know them, right?
Only as He knows all men whom He lightens with physical life:

(John 1:9-10 KJV) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. {10} He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Those who die in their sins would rightly be those who never knew Him.

quiet dove
Mar 14th 2008, 08:32 PM
I've always just thought of The Lamb's Book of Life. The one with the names of everyone in Christ....

I hadn't thought of there being 2 separate books... although if that IS the case, then yes, I'm referring to the names of the "saved".

:)

I never really thought about there being two either until I read whatever was I read. And I obviously have not thought about it much again because I can't remember what it was I read.:hmm:

markdrums
Mar 14th 2008, 09:01 PM
I never really thought about there being two either until I read whatever was I read. And I obviously have not thought about it much again because I can't remember what it was I read.:hmm:


I did a word / phrase search on Blue Letter Bible (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) for, "Book of Life". From what I can tell, all the references are of the same book.

Here are the verses that mention it:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Phl 4:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Phl/Phl004.html#3) And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.


Rev 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev003.html#5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Rev 13:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev013.html#8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Rev 17:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev017.html#8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Rev 20:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rev 21:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Rev 22:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev022.html#19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Rev 20:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

quiet dove
Mar 14th 2008, 09:26 PM
I searched it to mark. At some point it will hit me where I read about this and I can re read what the support was-- or lack of. I'll probably have to start a new thread by then.

quiet dove
Mar 14th 2008, 11:16 PM
This I find interesting and I just saw it when looking at the verses that I already looked at, I'm sure you guys have been there.

Php 4:3 And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

My question is, how can a name be blotted out of a book it was not written in?

markdrums
Mar 15th 2008, 02:42 AM
This I find interesting and I just saw it when looking at the verses that I already looked at, I'm sure you guys have been there.



Php 4:3 And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.


Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.


Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


My question is, how can a name be blotted out of a book it was not written in?





Good research work!! ;)
Again, it looks like the mention of "The Book of Life" indicates those people with "Eternal Life".....
.....Which makes me keep going back to my original thought on this:
I believe the "end" won't come until the "last" person whose name is written in the book of life is either born, or conceived.

The UNKNOWN factor is....... How long from now is that????

How many babies are conceived each day? (Keeping in mind, "The age of accountability".... which lets us understand that babies, young children, & embryos are all "blameless"... and will be in the book of life.)

Mograce2U
Mar 15th 2008, 03:46 AM
This I find interesting and I just saw it when looking at the verses that I already looked at, I'm sure you guys have been there.




Php 4:3 And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.


Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.


Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


My question is, how can a name be blotted out of a book it was not written in?

Ever feel like a detective when searching the scriptures? Nancy Drew was my childhood hero - now I know why!


Ps 69:28 is interesting in that being blotted out is the same as though one had not being written with the righteous in the first place.


In Rev 3:5 it is using a double negative for blotting out to set it in parallel with one also being confessed by Jesus to the Father, for those overcomers who have been clothed in white garments. IOW once that occurs, our destiny is fixed forever - is the drift I get.


Israel as the elect of God, apparently started out with their names in that book, but sin could remove them (Ex 32:32) I am thinking that when Jesus took over that book, that only those who believed in Him were added to it. Yet it seems that sin could still cause one's name to get removed. Until the day of our resurrection - then it becomes unremoveable.


There do seem to be other books which concern works. Mal 3:16 speaks of a book of remembrance that God keeps for those who feared the Lord and thought upon His name. Perhaps those are candidates being considered for the book of the life...? Like Cornelius.

quiet dove
Mar 15th 2008, 04:47 AM
Ever feel like a detective when searching the scriptures? Nancy Drew was my childhood hero - now I know why!


Ps 69:28 is interesting in that being blotted out is the same as though one had not being written with the righteous in the first place.


In Rev 3:5 it is using a double negative for blotting out to set it in parallel with one also being confessed by Jesus to the Father, for those overcomers who have been clothed in white garments. IOW once that occurs, our destiny is fixed forever - is the drift I get.


Israel as the elect of God, apparently started out with their names in that book, but sin could remove them (Ex 32:32) I am thinking that when Jesus took over that book, that only those who believed in Him were added to it. Yet it seems that sin could still cause one's name to get removed. Until the day of our resurrection - then it becomes unremoveable.


There do seem to be other books which concern works. Mal 3:16 speaks of a book of remembrance that God keeps for those who feared the Lord and thought upon His name. Perhaps those are candidates being considered for the book of the life...? Like Cornelius.




I have not thought of that being the case, I'll have to ponder on that thought a bit.

I did a search on book and looked through the verses, there are more books spoken of than I have really thought much about (some I have but some not); War, Law, Covenant, Remembrance, and Life; Moses, chronicles, and some more I can't remember at the moment, but more than I realized. I remember the first time I read about the Book of Remembrance, I found that one fascinating.


Good research work!! ;)
Again, it looks like the mention of "The Book of Life" indicates those people with "Eternal Life".....
.....Which makes me keep going back to my original thought on this:
I believe the "end" won't come until the "last" person whose name is written in the book of life is either born, or conceived.

The UNKNOWN factor is....... How long from now is that????

How many babies are conceived each day? (Keeping in mind, "The age of accountability".... which lets us understand that babies, young children, & embryos are all "blameless"... and will be in the book of life.)

I sure hope the number is about complete. You know God knows what that number is. I guess here this s where we would get in another direction me being pre trib and all, so I don't know how that would work other than I do believe many many will be saved during the tribulation. But not to get off track. The only verse I can think of at the moment that says anything about a number would be
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Which is exciting, sad and kinda scary all at the same time because it also is saying they will be killed as those already there given the white robes.

ross3421
Mar 15th 2008, 05:17 AM
Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.






Correction on the above verse. It should read those which "are not written" or "not found" in the book. The phrase "not been written" gives the idea that they were never written in the book to start.

Re 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


All who are to be born upon the earth whether they become saved or not are written in this book. Those which do not attain salvation are then blotted out leaving only the saved remaining.

So the book will be complete when the last person is blotted out.


Mark

Mograce2U
Mar 15th 2008, 04:51 PM
Correction on the above verse. It should read those which "are not written" or "not found" in the book. The phrase "not been written" gives the idea that they were never written in the book to start.

Re 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

All who are to be born upon the earth whether they become saved or not are written in this book. Those which do not attain salvation are then blotted out leaving only the saved remaining.

So the book will be complete when the last person is blotted out.

MarkWe agree! If first mention is followed then Ex 32:32 and Ps 69:28 must be where the precedent is set so that the NT can give us the fullest sense.

quiet dove
Mar 16th 2008, 06:55 AM
Correction on the above verse. It should read those which "are not written" or "not found" in the book. The phrase "not been written" gives the idea that they were never written in the book to start.

Re 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


All who are to be born upon the earth whether they become saved or not are written in this book. Those which do not attain salvation are then blotted out leaving only the saved remaining.

So the book will be complete when the last person is blotted out.


Mark

Isn't "have not been written" and "not written" pretty much the same thing. What is "not written" still cannot be blotted out. And like was mentioned before. Jesus says "I never knew you". If a name is blotted out because it was once in the book, how can Jesus say He "never knew" them? If someone was in the Book of Life at any time, Jesus knew them.

ross3421
Mar 16th 2008, 08:58 AM
[
quote=quiet dove;1574480]Isn't "have not been written" and "not written" pretty much the same thing.

No. Not witten is to mean that is is not written due to being blotted out not that it was never writen. Understand?




Jesus says "I never knew you". If a name is blotted out because it was once in the book, how can Jesus say He "never knew" them? If someone was in the Book of Life at any time, Jesus knew them.
[/QUOTE]

When Christ says "I never knew you" it not to mean that he does not know who they are, of course he does.... However at judgement day he will profess to those who have not done the will of the father that he does not know them. The Greek verb is "to come to know" them hence they were never born again into a relationship with Christ.

Mark

quiet dove
Mar 16th 2008, 06:48 PM
[
No. Not witten is to mean that is is not written due to being blotted out not that it was never writen. Understand?


We are going to have to agree to disagree because to me, not written means not written; and blotted out means, once written then blotted out.



When Christ says "I never knew you" it not to mean that he does not know who they are, of course he does.... However at judgement day he will profess to those who have not done the will of the father that he does not know them. The Greek verb is "to come to know" them hence they were never born again into a relationship with Christ.
Mark

I agree, He knows everything. But this "know" could refer to a more personal knowledge or personally knowing someone, like I know I have neighbors, but I do not know them personally.

Mograce2U
Mar 16th 2008, 07:45 PM
We are going to have to agree to disagree because to me, not written means not written; and blotted out means, once written then blotted out.

Except in those examples from the OT which states them as being the same thing.

I agree, He knows everything. But this "know" could refer to a more personal knowledge or personally knowing someone, like I know I have neighbors, but I do not know them personally.The phrase "I never knew you" (Mat 7:23) is in the aorist/active/indicative for the word "knew" [G1097 ginosko]. My Greek dictionary says this means that there was never a particular point of time in the past in which Jesus made Himself known to these men that He says this about.

The fact that they claimed to know Him and stated they even did miracles "in His name", marks them as hypocrites, because Jesus did not know THEM - (as in, had not made Himself known to them?). That leaves only one other entity that they were working their miracles by, because Jesus was not the one doing those works they laid claim to. What they were doing was working iniquity as false prophets and laying it forth as if they were the ones Jesus approved. This is a false claim of apostleship from these men who were really working by a false spirit.

quiet dove
Mar 16th 2008, 08:18 PM
The phrase "I never knew you" (Mat 7:23) is in the aorist/active/indicative for the word "knew" [G1097 ginosko]. My Greek dictionary says this means that there was never a particular point of time in the past in which Jesus made Himself known to these men that He says this about.

The fact that they claimed to know Him and stated they even did miracles "in His name", marks them as hypocrites, because Jesus did not know THEM - (as in, had not made Himself known to them?). That leaves only one other entity that they were working their miracles by, because Jesus was not the one doing those works they laid claim to. What they were doing was working iniquity as false prophets and laying it forth as if they were the ones Jesus approved. This is a false claim of apostleship from these men who were really working by a false spirit.

Thats an good and interesting explanation, but it does not contradict what I said, or what I said does not contradict the explanation. :) I mean wouldn't a person have to have known Jesus or/and Him known them to have been written in the Book of Life? Or still be in the Book of Life, whichever the case may be.

I guess we are all off the OP, other than to say I believe that there is a set time for the Second Advent of Christ and of course God knows the number of people that will have accepted Christ at that time and whatever He considers complete will have happened by that time. I do not think it is as yet and indefinite time that will be determined when that last name is either written in or blotted out. The verse coming to mind is that Christ said "only the Father knows" so it seems it is set and God already knows.

My heart's Desire
Mar 17th 2008, 02:00 AM
If every man who comes into the world is given earthly life and so is in the book of life, could it be that when their names are taken out is at death?

I think this is an explaination I've heard someone give before so possible. Only those saved remain so therefore everyone given the choice but not all take it.
Reminds me of the story of Nicodemus. Born naturally but then must be born spiritually. I mean reborn.

My heart's Desire
Mar 17th 2008, 02:06 AM
According to the strict context of the parallel verses below which pertains to Jesus' 2nd coming and Israel whom they pierced the Lord, it says:

Zechariah 12 - RSV

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.

The remnant were afraid, and when they were sealed with the Holy Spirit, they gave glory to the God of heaven. This is the start of the Great Tribulation where the Lord will shake the earth with a great earthquake. The Lord will not only shake the Earth, but also heaven. As written:

Hebrews 12

26 At that time

The verses above are just a few verses which describes the event of the Great Tribulation.

But God will delay this for awhile for the sake of the elect.
I thought this a very good post full of insight. The whole thing, I just didn't quote it all. :D

My heart's Desire
Mar 17th 2008, 02:18 AM
Revelation I think speaks of the Book of Life and then the books being opened. I've heard it explained that if your name was not in the book of Life then the other books probably held your deeds (the ones that one thought could save them by their own effort). Both books would show ones lack of belief in Christ alone to save them. ( This is also speculation though but seems reasonable)

Mograce2U
Mar 17th 2008, 02:21 AM
I think this is an explaination I've heard someone give before so possible. Only those saved remain so therefore everyone given the choice but not all take it.
Reminds me of the story of Nicodemus. Born naturally but then must be born spiritually. I mean reborn.I would think that being born again assures our place in that book. Since only those who have been are told they will not face the 2nd death. And that is the qualifier at the judgment for those who end up in the lake. A book in which only the living remain to receive eternal life, sounds like many who were there at one time were later removed. So getting your name in the book is not a big deal, but keeping it there is! How is that to be done since all men die...

My heart's Desire
Mar 17th 2008, 04:00 AM
I would think that being born again assures our place in that book. Since only those who have been are told they will not face the 2nd death. And that is the qualifier at the judgment for those who end up in the lake. A book in which only the living remain to receive eternal life, sounds like many who were there at one time were later removed. So getting your name in the book is not a big deal, but keeping it there is! How is that to be done since all men die...
Sorry, didn't quite understand your post but I agree...being born again does assure us that our name will be in the "Book of Life". Not rather it is there to begin with or rather it is blotted out, that it is there at the end is what matters.
oh wait, I gotcha...Because those born again never die. hummm lets see...before salvation all are dead IN Sin..after salvation those saved are dead TO Sin but alive in Christ maybe?

RevLogos
Mar 17th 2008, 04:16 AM
Hey, you bring up a question in my mind. Is the last name in the book, the last one brought into the entire realm of heaven by salvation or is it the last one brought to Christ at the end of time? If one is pretrib and believes the last one brought into the church will precede the pretrib rapture of the church, and others are saved unto the end of time then that one brought into the Church is not the last in the book but one other that is at the end of time will be the very last one. ;) maybe?

You folks are dancing around my second theory about what triggers the end-of-times.

Ever wonder how many names are in the Book of Life? Perhaps God is looking for a certain number of souls. When the number is reached, Jesus returns to usher in the millennium. Perhaps for example, we will replace the one third of the angels who fell with Lucifer?

Ashley274
Mar 17th 2008, 05:13 AM
My answer is just simple and I may not get your questions ...my mind is mush today...but Christ will only return when the Word is preached to the whole world.

My heart's Desire
Mar 17th 2008, 05:17 AM
You folks are dancing around my second theory about what triggers the end-of-times.

Ever wonder how many names are in the Book of Life? :) That is kind of what we are discussing. How the names got there probably has alot to do with how many are there. If it is all those who ever had life period then that is how many names there are. If it ends up some are blotted out for unbelief then all those who are saved are how many names there are. Will we ever KNOW the exact number? Only God knows. Either way, alot of us think it contains in the end only those saved for all time.

Mograce2U
Mar 17th 2008, 04:47 PM
Sorry, didn't quite understand your post but I agree...being born again does assure us that our name will be in the "Book of Life". Not rather it is there to begin with or rather it is blotted out, that it is there at the end is what matters.
oh wait, I gotcha...Because those born again never die. hummm lets see...before salvation all are dead IN Sin..after salvation those saved are dead TO Sin but alive in Christ maybe?Before salvation we are seen as dead in sins because death is all that awaits us. But we are living in the natural realm - and we have natural life. What we lack is the spiritual life that will see us thru death. Only the born again who have the seed of Christ planted in them will pass thru from natural death into life eternal. The 2nd death cannot therefore touch them.

Philip Mauro looks at the 2nd death as being the body of flesh that dies. IOW there is natural life and there is spiritual life as well as bodily death and spiritual death. The unsaved are born into the natural realm, but spiritually dead already. The 2nd death when it comes upon them leaves them dead in their sins. But for those who have been born again into spiritual life and have their sins forgiven, they have already been brought out of the 1st death and now the 2nd death can't harm them - even though their body still dies.

So in looking at the book of life, it seems to me that all who are born into this world do appear there, but when death comes it takes their names out because of sin. While those who have been born again have no sin against them and so death does not remove their names.

I am still musing on this one...

brakelite
Mar 17th 2008, 08:37 PM
But some do not believe these verses apply to the Church and I am one of them.
You will notice that He says "I never knew you"? They were never saved. I think if they had of been He would have said it differently. Plus, we all know our works do not gain us entrance into heaven anyway. The work of the Father is to believe on the One whom He sent, Jesus.

On the 10 virgin verse, I'm not quite as sure, but I remember when the Jewish leaders wondered why Jesus disciples did not fast as John's disciples did, He asked them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast....NASB
I notice that He calls them "attendants" or as the KJV has it "the children of the bedchamber". In John 3:29 John says He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. John says the bridegroom has the bride and that he himself is a friend of the bridegroom.
See, I believe this has something about the Jewish people, not the church. If John is saved, then why doesn't he identify himself as part of the bride instead of the friend.
As other threads bear out we could go on an eternity with these verses, but that's all I wanted to say. I don't think they are Church verses.

I dont know what Bible version you use, but my KJV says in Math 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened..."
When? Then. When was that? At the time of the second coming. This story of the 10 virgins comes at the close of Math 24 which deals with the question of the last days. Jesus said that "the kingdom of heaven will be like this..." If this doesn't refer to the church at the end of time then what does it refer to? And also, Jesus in this case did not say "Inever knew you"
He said, "I know you not." (Although I confess I may have misquoted in my former post).
The five would be examples of ones who have their names removed from the book of life.

As to the other portion of scripture I quoted from Math 7, Jesus said "Many will say to Me in that day Lord, Lord,....
They then proceed to relate to Him all their good works. Prophecy in the name of Jesus, casting out devils in the name of Jesus, and many wonderful works in the mane of Jesus. And people believe this doesn't apply to the church?
Certainly Jesus said in that case He never knew them. Which echoes my point precisely, that there are many in the church who will not be saved, and even, as you say, perhaps never saved.
They are in the corporate church certainly, but are not a part of the body of Christ. They are the tares growing among the wheat, and will be separated on the last day.

My heart's Desire
Mar 18th 2008, 04:29 AM
I dont know what Bible version you use, but my KJV says in Math 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened..."
When? Then. When was that? At the time of the second coming. This story of the 10 virgins comes at the close of Math 24 which deals with the question of the last days. Jesus said that "the kingdom of heaven will be like this..." If this doesn't refer to the church at the end of time then what does it refer to? And also, Jesus in this case did not say "Inever knew you"
He said, "I know you not." (Although I confess I may have misquoted in my former post).
The five would be examples of ones who have their names removed from the book of life.

As to the other portion of scripture I quoted from Math 7, Jesus said "Many will say to Me in that day Lord, Lord,....
They then proceed to relate to Him all their good works. Prophecy in the name of Jesus, casting out devils in the name of Jesus, and many wonderful works in the mane of Jesus. And people believe this doesn't apply to the church?
Certainly Jesus said in that case He never knew them. Which echoes my point precisely, that there are many in the church who will not be saved, and even, as you say, perhaps never saved.
They are in the corporate church certainly, but are not a part of the body of Christ. They are the tares growing among the wheat, and will be separated on the last day.Sorry, I thought I put that in. I use the NASB 95 revised, but I also quoted from KJV to compare.
You may remember the 7 sons of one Sceva, a Jewish cheif priest was going about trying to use the name of Jesus to cast out evil spirits? So, people other than Christians in those days tried these things as well and also there was the woman who followed Paul crying out that These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation. Her words were true enough yet she was doing it with the practice of divination for her masters profit. So, people other than Christians also did these things, so that doesn't nessessarily mean Jesus "never knew" People who once were saved and now were not. Even unbelievers cast out spirits and spoke revelations such as the girl did. They certainly were not members of the church.
I can't help but feel that also the church was not born until AFTER the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

And... I don't think that the Unsaved ever belonged to the Church, the Body of Christ. Now if you are saying that inside the church building at services, at Christian functions etc there will be people who think/and or try to act like Christians when they are not then yes, I agree this is so for the tare looks so much like wheat that to destroy one may destroy the real thing.
I believe all Scripture was written for our learning, and I'll admit I don't understand all of the Virgin story but I think it may have something to do with just before the period of time of the 1000 yrs of Revelation begins.

brakelite
Mar 18th 2008, 06:43 AM
I don't think I have much to differ with you there.

brakelite
Mar 18th 2008, 07:34 AM
I agree here with My heart's desire, she makes an excellent point, He NEVER knew them, they were never apart of the Body of Christ the Church. They may have shown up in the buildings called churches, but they were never members of the Body of Christ. Not to mention those who do this and do that and spouting of Holy Spirit and Jesus, but they do not believe the Gospel.

Hi QD, that actually is the point I was making. I am sorry that I didn't make myself clear.
When I said Jesus is waiting for His church to get better, I certainly was not meaning the visible corporate buildings and organisations people commonly associate with 'church'. I was referring solely to those who by faith are growing in grace, learning daily to die to self, and obeying God's commandments. Those who are walking in the Spirit and not the flesh. Those who like the five wise virgins who are not only looking for Jesus' coming, but are filled with the Holy Spirit, sharing their faith, and and hungering and thirsting after righteousness. They are truly abiding in Him, and He in them.
It is this 'church' that Jesus is waiting for to reach a point when He can say, "the bride is ready". They are individuals who are today in every denomination and house church and village and city all over the world. And I am convinced that before Jesus comes they will be united in doctrine and faith and love. Many will have to leave their current situations in order to find the freedom to practice their faith unhindered. They will come out of Babylon, and will be counted a part of the final remnant church of Revelation 14:12 who immediately before the final day are "keeping the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus."

Many believe this group of people will be of a similar nature to the apostolic church. While I consider this to be a most admirable vision to aspire to for the church, I think Jesus has something even better in mind. Consider the following verses.

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus is the second Adam. He walked over the same ground that Adam walked, yet without sin. Jesus showed us that through faith in our heavenly Father we can overcome sin and gain a life of victory. It is God's desire that we be transformed into the image of Jesus.

Rom 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 John 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:8For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. He came to restore the image of God in man that Adam lost through sin. Rather than the Apostolic church as goal, I believe it is not only possible, but God's desire that we are transformed by the power of God to the same state Adam was before he fell. God never does anything half-hearted, and desires to do things "exceedingly abundantly more than we can ask or think".

Consider the power, grace,mercy and love of God. Is there any reason why God cannot accomplish this in us? The only thing that can stand in His way is our lack of faith.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

quiet dove
Mar 18th 2008, 07:56 AM
But we will not see the complete fulfillment of our transformation to what Christ is making of us until we are resurrected. Or changed. I am not saying we cant continue with each moment to strive and become more like Him, we should seek to be according to His will with each breath. But the fact remains we, with all creation, groan for the moment that happens and this physical flesh is no longer a burden.

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If His return awaits this to happen, while we are still burdened by the flesh, its gonna be a long wait, and what is the difference between the believers alive then and all the believers who have lived and died, those who died were not better or worse than us, why is it they did not attain to or become without spot or wrinkle and what makes believers different as time continues on with each generation?

I can't agree that Christ is waiting for the Church to be without spot or wrinkle in this particular generation, or any future generation. Covered by His blood we are without wrinkle and past generations of believers were not more wrinkly than us.

Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

I believe when it is the determined time, He will return. And when we are changed from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible, we will be with out spot or wrinkle. Those dead in Christ and those alive in Christ.

brakelite
Mar 18th 2008, 08:26 AM
Well, I guess we disagree on the timing. I just happen to believe we can overcome the flesh now.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

quiet dove
Mar 18th 2008, 04:29 PM
braklite,
I am not saying we cannot over come the flesh now, but the fact remains we are in the flesh, in the imperfect flesh. Me not committing nary a sin today does not change the fact that I am still a sinner.

We should certainly be striving to walk in the Spirit and the not flesh, but when you meet the Christian that is totally, 100% doing that all day, every day, in every situation, never making mistakes, never committing any sin and is now without spot or wrinkle (with the exception of how that applies to us all in that we are covered by the blood of the Lamb) Be sure to introduce this person to us.

I am not trying to sound sarcastic, just make a point. It is not going to happen in this flesh, and I ask again, why is this perfection of the Church more apt to happen in this generation or a future generation than any of the generations of loyal, obedient, God fearing believers through out history?

What does the Bible tell us about righteousness and faith
"ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God.

I just believe you are mistaken to think that believers today or tomorrow will attain to something that the Church as a whole has not been able to attain to. And that is not because Christ is not able, it is because as feeble, flesh covered, corruptible mortals. we are not better or worse than all those believers that have lived and died before us. I am not saying that we cannot over come the obstacles of the flesh, day by day. That happens with the washing of the word

Eph 5:26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

It is not that that the Church as a whole will someday be without spot and wrinkle as to bring Christ back. It is what we are in Christ, believing God, in faith, being washed by the Word, cleansed and sanctified. Someday, we and all those who have died in Christ, will be resurrected to immortality and incorruptibility will stand before Him, without spot or wrinkle.

Firstfruits
Mar 18th 2008, 04:37 PM
braklite,
I am not saying we cannot over come the flesh now, but the fact remains we are in the flesh, in the imperfect flesh. Me not committing nary a sin today does not change the fact that I am still a sinner.

We should certainly be striving to walk in the Spirit and the not flesh, but when you meet the Christian that is totally, 100% doing that all day, every day, in every situation, never making mistakes, never committing any sin and is now without spot or wrinkle (with the exception of how that applies to us all in that we are covered by the blood of the Lamb) Be sure to introduce this person to us.

I am not trying to sound sarcastic, just make a point. It is not going to happen in this flesh, and I ask again, why is this perfection of the Church more apt to happen in this generation or a future generation than any of the generations of loyal, obedient, God fearing believers through out history?

What does the Bible tell us about righteousness and faith
"ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God.

I just believe you are mistaken to think that believers today or tomorrow will attain to something that the Church as a whole has not been able to attain to. And that is not because Christ is not able, it is because as feeble, flesh covered, corruptible mortals. we are not better or worse than all those believers that have lived and died before us. I am not saying that we cannot over come the obstacles of the flesh, day by day. That happens with the washing of the word

Eph 5:26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

It is not that that the Church as a whole will someday be without spot and wrinkle as to bring Christ back. It is what we are in Christ, believing God, in faith, being washed by the Word, cleansed and sanctified. Someday, we and all those who have died in Christ, will be resurrected to immortality and incorruptibility will stand before Him, without spot or wrinkle.





May I ask how you would explain the following?

1 Jn 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Jn 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

quiet dove
Mar 18th 2008, 04:49 PM
May I ask how you would explain the following?

1 Jn 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Jn 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Over coming the world does not mean this flesh body is no longer the sinful flesh body, it means that we are walking in the Spirit and denying the flesh. You underlined it yourself, what it means to over come the world

1Jn 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The moment we believe and then are in Christ Jesus is the moment we have been freed from the bondage of the kingdom of darkness. That is the moment that we have overcome the world. We are no longer citizens of the world, but citizens of heaven. So if that equates to without spot or wrinkle while in this flesh, and being without spot or wrinkle is what brings Jesus back, then He is late, because the above would apply to every believer through out history and the Church would have been without spot or wrinkle a long time ago.

My heart's Desire
Mar 18th 2008, 06:04 PM
But we will not see the complete fulfillment of our transformation to what Christ is making of us until we are resurrected. Or changed. I am not saying we cant continue with each moment to strive and become more like Him, we should seek to be according to His will with each breath. But the fact remains we, with all creation, groan for the moment that happens and this physical flesh is no longer a burden.

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If His return awaits this to happen, while we are still burdened by the flesh, its gonna be a long wait, and what is the difference between the believers alive then and all the believers who have lived and died, those who died were not better or worse than us, why is it they did not attain to or become without spot or wrinkle and what makes believers different as time continues on with each generation?

I can't agree that Christ is waiting for the Church to be without spot or wrinkle in this particular generation, or any future generation. Covered by His blood we are without wrinkle and past generations of believers were not more wrinkly than us.

I believe when it is the determined time, He will return. And when we are changed from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible, we will be with out spot or wrinkle. Those dead in Christ and those alive in Christ.
I say "ditto"! great statement.

My heart's Desire
Mar 18th 2008, 06:20 PM
I believe that God knows His return and it may be exactly as planned by Him. :) What I do see in this thread is a good starting point for new threads. I, myself am confused about what is "flesh" what is "body" and what it means as it appears in different verses. I don't think I've done a good study of that myself even. I think that in a way I sometimes read over the words, just assuming I know what they mean.
And then perhaps threads on the condition of how do I say "today's corporate church". hummm. (might not be allowed)I'm not prepared to start a new thread on one of these but would be interesting. :)

brakelite
Mar 19th 2008, 12:20 AM
braklite,
I am not saying we cannot over come the flesh now, but the fact remains we are in the flesh, in the imperfect flesh. Me not committing nary a sin today does not change the fact that I am still a sinner.
But why is it that you feel that you being a sinner is so inevitable? You said yourself that it is possible to overcome the flesh. I agree. The flesh is our greatest enemy, for it is through the flesh that the devil tempts us. But the promise of God is that with the temptation we are given a means to escape and not sin. Yet you are going back and using the power of your flesh as your
excuse or reason for sinning. Might I politely suggest that the only thing standing in your way from becoming the perfect Christian is your faith in the power of God? Or do you believe the flesh and satan is more powerful?


We should certainly be striving to walk in the Spirit and the not flesh, but when you meet the Christian that is totally, 100% doing that all day, every day, in every situation, never making mistakes, never committing any sin and is now without spot or wrinkle (with the exception of how that applies to us all in that we are covered by the blood of the Lamb) Be sure to introduce this person to us.
Sorry, can't help you there. I don't actually know if my aquaintances are still sinning or not, I don't watch them that closely, but my guess would be that yes, some may slip up from time to time.But not necessarily all. Sin is deliberatly and intentionally disobeying God's laws and commandments. One can't sin by accident. So are there some who never disobey God? Why not?
However, I must stress that I personally am a work in progress, and maybe, like many or most others, there is something in me the Holy Spirit is yet to reveal to me that needs attention. But by the time of the second coming, I see no reason not to believe that God will complete His work.


I am not trying to sound sarcastic, just make a point. It is not going to happen in this flesh, and I ask again, why is this perfection of the Church more apt to happen in this generation or a future generation than any of the generations of loyal, obedient, God fearing believers through out history?
One reason perhaps is that it is only in the last 200 years that we have had the word of God to show us where we have been going wrong. The reformation began God's finishing work, why not let it continue until it is complete?

What does the Bible tell us about righteousness and faith
"ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God.

I just believe you are mistaken to think that believers today or tomorrow will attain to something that the Church as a whole has not been able to attain to. And that is not because Christ is not able, it is because as feeble, flesh covered, corruptible mortals. we are not better or worse than all those believers that have lived and died before us. I am not saying that we cannot over come the obstacles of the flesh, day by day. That happens with the washing of the word

Eph 5:26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

It is not that that the Church as a whole will someday be without spot and wrinkle as to bring Christ back. It is what we are in Christ, believing God, in faith, being washed by the Word, cleansed and sanctified. Someday, we and all those who have died in Christ, will be resurrected to immortality and incorruptibility will stand before Him, without spot or wrinkle.





It is also said of Abraham that he kept all God's commandments, statutes and laws. (Genesis 26:5) Maybe it is because he believed that he was able to perform. The only times we are told of him sinning is when he stopped believing.:hmm:

God bless

revrobor
Mar 19th 2008, 04:17 AM
What prevokes Jesus' return to Earth is God deciding it's time.

quiet dove
Mar 19th 2008, 05:50 AM
Might I politely suggest that the only thing standing in your way from becoming the perfect Christian is your faith in the power of God? Or do you believe the flesh and satan is more powerful?


Might I politely suggest, you are way out of line with the above.

I have faith in God's perfect plan and that He has determined just what He will do and when, including the Second Advent of His Son regardless of what any man ever born does or does not do.

brakelite
Mar 20th 2008, 06:43 AM
Quiet Dove, taken on it's own out of the context of the rest of the post does make it sound rather harsh doesn't it. My apologies for for any offense caused.
However, this being an open forum, I always post with all the other readers in mind also, so my remark above was not directed to you personally necessarily (although of course it was our conversation), but at the risk of offending everyone, my above remark applies to us all.
(Nor do I say anything that excludes myself). At the risk of repeating myself, I believe it is our lack of faith which contributes most to our inability to overcome sin, for it is only by faith that it is possible to do so.( The just shall live by faith.)
The promise is that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. That includes overcoming sin, it includes developing the character of Christ, it means that it is possible, here and now, by the grace and power of God, to live such a life of godliness and virtue that all the works of the devil are indeed destroyed, just as Jesus said He would do.It means that through Christ, the second Adam, we can live the life of the first Adam before he fell. This perfecting of God's church in this life would finally and irrevocably put to the lie the devil's accusation that God's law is too harsh, too difficult to obey, or somehow unfair, or that God's government is unworthy. The perfecting of Christian character in this life would bring the greatest glory to God.
If we don't believe Romans 8:29, that we can be transformed into the image of Christ, are we not saying that the power of the flesh is greater than the power and promises of God?
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

quiet dove
Mar 20th 2008, 05:24 PM
I believe it is our lack of faith which contributes most to our inability to overcome sin, for it is only by faith that it is possible to do so.( The just shall live by faith.)
I agree, we are to walk by faith. The only way to over come the flesh is by faith and obedience, complete submission to Christ. Even when a person has reached a level of maturity as to be walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh, the fact remains, that it is an everyday battle we must win and as long as we are still in the flesh, we are not incorruptible, we are not wrinkle free or spot free. We are covered by His atoning blood yes.


The promise is that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. That includes overcoming sin, it includes developing the character of Christ, it means that it is possible, here and now, by the grace and power of God, to live such a life of godliness and virtue that all the works of the devil are indeed destroyed, just as Jesus said He would do.It means that through Christ, the second Adam, we can live the life of the first Adam before he fell. The above are certainly true until you get to the last line, this is where I believe your thought on this crosses the line. Living in obedience and returning to what Adam was before the fall are two different states.

1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

We know we are spiritually in Christ. But we are also, while still physical, bearing the image of Adam also. Until that part of us is also changed/resurrected, we have to contend with it, no matter how obedient we are, no matter how maturely we walk in the Spirit, the fact remains, we still have this incorruptible flesh to contend with until it to, one day, is redeemed.

Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

So while I do agree, through Christ, by walking in the Spirit and obedience, we can have victory and over come the flesh; the fact remains that we are still in the flesh and the flesh is corruptible.

Let me ask this.
Why would Christ return depend on physical believers who are still in the flesh reaching a certain level of being spot free, prompt Christ to come back? By the view you hold is He not going to return and all be resurrected/changed upon His Second Advent? I mean I could see someone pre or trib, and already believing that Christ is going to reign 1000 years on the earth over mortal believers who survive the trib having this somehow in their view, even though I don't and would not agree with them if they did. But as so many contend, at Christ Second Advent all are resurrected/changed, why would what we are in the flesh, not matter how mature and obedient, have any bearing?
I am not sure that is all coming out right and making sense so if not let me know. :)



This perfecting of God's church in this life would finally and irrevocably put to the lie the devil's accusation that God's law is too harsh, too difficult to obey, or somehow unfair, or that God's government is unworthy. The perfecting of Christian character in this life would bring the greatest glory to God. And this perfecting is happening every day for every believer that submits in obedience to Him. But the flesh is still present and it is not spotless, but being told no. Being spotless and being told no(overcome) are two different things.



If we don't believe Romans 8:29, that we can be transformed into the image of Christ, are we not saying that the power of the flesh is greater than the power and promises of God? But I am not saying that we cant be transformed, in an ongoing process, to His image. I am saying that no matter how much transforming happens, it does not control the timing of His Second Advent. And no matter how much we are transformed into Him image, it does not make the flesh incorruptible, it makes the flesh submissive and still a continuing obstacle to overcome.



2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.I am not disagreeing with this, like every one here, I depend on this promise being true so I know I can, in this life, experience a relationship, a happy obedient relationship with Christ. I am free from bondage, no longer a citizen of the kingdom of darkness. But all of this is my spiritual. My flesh would go right back to lust given half a chance, it is still corruptible and must be overcome, no matter what. And it will never be spot free, over come yes (hopefully) but never wrinkle and spot free. Spiritually yes, through Christ, covered by His atoning blood. And someday, when this old mortal body is gone and I have a new immortal, incorruptilble body, then I will be spot free, and wrinkle free, but even then, I will always be a redeemed sinner in Christ Jesus.

brakelite
Mar 21st 2008, 09:58 PM
Hi Quiet Dove. I follow where you are coming from now, and I agree with you that while we are still in this mortal body, it remains to be a daily dieing to self and a daily warfare to overcome. The only part of your post that had me stalled a while was this, I had to read it several times :D







Let me ask this.
Why would Christ return depend on physical believers who are still in the flesh reaching a certain level of being spot free, prompt Christ to come back? By the view you hold is He not going to return and all be resurrected/changed upon His Second Advent? I mean I could see someone pre or trib, and already believing that Christ is going to reign 1000 years on the earth over mortal believers who survive the trib having this somehow in their view, even though I don't and would not agree with them if they did. But as so many contend, at Christ Second Advent all are resurrected/changed, why would what we are in the flesh, not matter how mature and obedient, have any bearing?


The way I read scripture shows me in a number of parables etc where 'readiness' and 'preparedness' is essential to being found approved at the second coming. Like the guest at the wedding feast who didn't bother with the wedding garment.
But the passage of scripture I think that speaks most strongly to my understanding of 'preparedness' is the following:

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


We see in the above a vivid and rather disturbing picture of the second coming, at least disturbing for the unready. In the passage can be discerned 2 groups. The harvest is the end of the present age and as we know the tares and the wheat grow together till the end. The harvest takes place when the fruit is ripe, and not before. I would hesitate to suggest that Jesus is waiting til the wicked are fully 'ripe' in their wickedness, although in one sense this may be true. I tend to think that the second coming will not come until such a time as when God is absolutely assured that there are no more possibility of anyone further to be added to the church. The tares are so hardened by sin they have greived the Spirit of God to such an extent that the Holy Spirit no longer strives with them, and they are irrevocably lost.

The righteous however are 'ripe' unto harvest. They are mature, they are ready. They are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, they have the oil necessary to light their lamps, they are obedient in all things, they have crucified the flesh with all it's debilitating weaknesses and sin, they are leading lives that bear fruit to the glory of God.

Jesus will not come before the time that the harvest is ready, nor will He come after. He will come when it is ripe.

Brakelite

yoSAMite
Mar 21st 2008, 11:36 PM
One of the reasons I started this thread is because as I've read responses to other threads I see people intermixing what I see as two different events, the rapture and the second coming.

As a pre-trib believer I see that the church, the Bride of Christ, has no effect on the 2nd coming of Jesus. At the second coming I believe the church will be coming back with Jesus.

I sort of understand those that believe that the 2nd coming will happen at a specific time. I was hoping to see if there are any verses that support that. It seems Daniel 9:24-27 gives the timing of the Messiah and according to my beliefs the 2nd coming, at the end of the 70 weeks. And this I see as sort of backwards countdown. Hose 5:15 is fulfilled and that is the end of the line. From there you could determine the rest of the 70th week.

Don't know if it makes sense, I was just looking for a better understanding of views I don't hold.

quiet dove
Mar 21st 2008, 11:56 PM
Hi Quiet Dove. I follow where you are coming from now, and I agree with you that while we are still in this mortal body, it remains to be a daily dieing to self and a daily warfare to overcome. The only part of your post that had me stalled a while was this, I had to read it several times :D


Don't ever hesitate to ask me to repeat or clarify, I am not the scholarly type or any kind of writer. Sometimes the fingers and brain and thought process are not all on the same page. :lol:. And just for the record, I can't spell:spin:



The way I read scripture shows me in a number of parables etc where 'readiness' and 'preparedness' is essential to being found approved at the second coming. Like the guest at the wedding feast who didn't bother with the wedding garment.
But the passage of scripture I think that speaks most strongly to my understanding of 'preparedness' is the following:

(Rev 14:15-19)

We see in the above a vivid and rather disturbing picture of the second coming, at least disturbing for the unready. In the passage can be discerned 2 groups. The harvest is the end of the present age and as we know the tares and the wheat grow together till the end. The harvest takes place when the fruit is ripe, and not before. I would hesitate to suggest that Jesus is waiting til the wicked are fully 'ripe' in their wickedness, although in one sense this may be true. I tend to think that the second coming will not come until such a time as when God is absolutely assured that there are no more possibility of anyone further to be added to the church. The tares are so hardened by sin they have greived the Spirit of God to such an extent that the Holy Spirit no longer strives with them, and they are irrevocably lost.

The righteous however are 'ripe' unto harvest. They are mature, they are ready. They are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, they have the oil necessary to light their lamps, they are obedient in all things, they have crucified the flesh with all it's debilitating weaknesses and sin, they are leading lives that bear fruit to the glory of God.

Jesus will not come before the time that the harvest is ready, nor will He come after. He will come when it is ripe.

BrakeliteLets look at it from another angle. These thoughts are what went through my mind in pondering your thoughts.

There is a time for planting, a time for the growing process, and a time for the reaping. The harvest will come within a set time period.

Instead of the fruit getting ready whenever, there is a set time span that it is planted, then grows, and we know withing reason the time span we will harvest. So God has planted, and sown, then the time for harvest comes at the set time for harvest. And what would get us harvested but being in Christ? Some of the fruit may have grown more quickly some not so quickly, but all the fruit is harvested and taken.

In other words, all those in Christ Jesus will be picked and taken even if they have not reached the level of maturity that would have been possible had they walked more in the Spirit and less in the flesh. The perfection of the fruit did not determine the time of harvest, but when the time of harvest came, it came and all the fruit got picked and taken and all the weeds growing in the garden with the fruit got thrown away.

In farming, even if every apple is not fully ripe, the farmers still say the apples are ripe and ready to harvest and that happens withing a specific time frame. And some apples are farther along than others but they are all still apples and still harvested and kept.

I understand the language says the grapes are fully ripe, but to say that the Church will ever be fully ripe as in every believer on the face of the earth being what they should be in Christ determines the timing of the Second Advent, we may as well close up ETC discussion cause it isnt going to happen any time soon. And that is not a cop out it's just reality, a thousand life times would not be enough to become perfect enough. We are righteous and spotless covered by His blood and we are covered by His blood the moment we are saved.

quiet dove
Mar 22nd 2008, 12:04 AM
One of the reasons I started this thread is because as I've read responses to other threads I see people intermixing what I see as two different events, the rapture and the second coming.

As a pre-trib believer I see that the church, the Bride of Christ, has no effect on the 2nd coming of Jesus. At the second coming I believe the church will be coming back with Jesus.

I sort of understand those that believe that the 2nd coming will happen at a specific time. I was hoping to see if there are any verses that support that. It seems Daniel 9:24-27 gives the timing of the Messiah and according to my beliefs the 2nd coming, at the end of the 70 weeks. And this I see as sort of backwards countdown. Hose 5:15 is fulfilled and that is the end of the line. From there you could determine the rest of the 70th week.

Don't know if it makes sense, I was just looking for a better understanding of views I don't hold.

I am pre trib also and agree. I think Daniel 9:27 says it all, when that agreement is confirmed, in seven years, Christ returns. By the time the seven years is up, Hosea 5:15 will have come to pass.

ShirleyFord
Mar 22nd 2008, 12:15 AM
I sort of understand those that believe that the 2nd coming will happen at a specific time. I was hoping to see if there are any verses that support that. It seems Daniel 9:24-27 gives the timing of the Messiah and according to my beliefs the 2nd coming, at the end of the 70 weeks. And this I see as sort of backwards countdown. Hose 5:15 is fulfilled and that is the end of the line. From there you could determine the rest of the 70th week.



Sam,

Are you saying that you believe that according to Daniel 9:24-27 that the Messiah comes at the end of the 70 weeks at His Second Coming?

The Messiah of Daniel's people has already come.

John 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.


Jesus told the woman at the well that He was the Messiah.


Jn 4:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


Messiah is interpretted "Christ" in the NT. Everywhere we find Christ written in the NT, we can know that it means the Messiah.

Peter, one of Daniel's people, declared of Jesus at His First Coming, "Thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16)



Shirley

yoSAMite
Mar 22nd 2008, 01:16 AM
Shirley asked:

Are you saying that you believe that according to Daniel 9:24-27 that the Messiah comes at the end of the 70 weeks at His Second Coming?

Absolutely not.

Sorry for any misunderstanding about that. I think that the Daniel prophecy says that the Messiah is born during the 69 weeks. I also believe that Jesus presented Himself as Messiah the king during the Triumphal Entry to end the 69 weeks. And he was killed after the 69 weeks. All according to the prophecy.

What I was trying to say, obviously not well, is that the church has no effect on the timing or the cause (for lack of a better term) for the 2nd coming.

I was looking for Scripture for reasons, the cause, timing or whatever from others as to what will precipitate the 2nd coming. Again, just trying to understand other views better.

brakelite
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:26 AM
Actually Khoolaid, the Messiah was indeed born during the 69th week and the 70th week began with His baptism, and ended 7 years later with the stoning of Steven. In the midst of that 7 years (or in the midst of the week) Messiah was cut off, causing the sacrifice and oblation to be of none effect. The covenant was confirmed for one week (7 years) through the preaching of the gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. After the stoning of Steven the gospel went to the gentiles.
Israel's 70 weeks that was determined for them was over.

ShirleyFord
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:28 AM
Shirley asked:

Absolutely not.

Sorry for any misunderstanding about that.

I'm sorry Sam for my misunderstanding you.

I thought I understood your endtime view pretty well until I hurridly read what you wrote (and that was my mistake) and thought I had better ask to make sure.

Thanks for clearing that up.:)




What I was trying to say, obviously not well, is that the church has no effect on the timing or the cause (for lack of a better term) for the 2nd coming.


I agree with you brother absolutely.


I was looking for Scripture for reasons, the cause, timing or whatever from others as to what will precipitate the 2nd coming. Again, just trying to understand other views better.

I haven't been able to find one Scripture that says "thus and so" must happen before Jesus can return.

My heart's Desire
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:52 AM
I found an interesting verse.
1 Timothy 6: 13 - 15 (not typing it all)
Verse 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of Our Lord Jesus Christ,
15. WHICH HE WILL BRING ABOUT AT THE PROPER TIME - He who is blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

So we know that Jesus will bring it about in the proper time.

quiet dove
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:10 AM
Just for the record, Shirley and Khoolaid, I was not saying that I think at the end of the 70 th week the Messiah wouldl come, as in His First Advent has I sure hope you guys know I understand that is history.:eek: I meant His Second Advent would be at the end of the 70th week, the first 69 already being past. Not that you agree but just to clarify I was not talking about the First Advent of Christ.

quiet dove
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:11 AM
I found an interesting verse.
1 Timothy 6: 13 - 15 (not typing it all)
Verse 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of Our Lord Jesus Christ,
15. WHICH HE WILL BRING ABOUT AT THE PROPER TIME - He who is blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

So we know that Jesus will bring it about in the proper time.


Thanks an excellent verse, thanks :)

brakelite
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:31 AM
I haven't been able to find one Scripture that says "thus and so" must happen before Jesus can return.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

My heart's Desire
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:31 AM
Thanks an excellent verse, thanks :)
You're welcome. I ran across it looking for something else.

My heart's Desire
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:32 AM
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
That's a good one too.

ShirleyFord
Mar 22nd 2008, 11:24 AM
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


Matthew 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.



Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

ShirleyFord
Mar 22nd 2008, 11:31 AM
Just for the record, Shirley and Khoolaid, I was not saying that I think at the end of the 70 th week the Messiah wouldl come, as in His First Advent has I sure hope you guys know I understand that is history.:eek: I meant His Second Advent would be at the end of the 70th week, the first 69 already being past. Not that you agree but just to clarify I was not talking about the First Advent of Christ.

Thanks QD. :)

If I remember correctly, you just referenced Daniel 9:27 and you didn't mention "the Messiah".

I know how both you and Sam understand that verse. That's how I understood it for nearly 30 years.

I just misunderstood what Sam had written.

(Must be my "taxes on the brain" that I suffer about this time every year during tax time :spin:)

Merton
Mar 22nd 2008, 11:59 AM
Actually Khoolaid, the Messiah was indeed born during the 69th week and the 70th week began with His baptism, and ended 7 years later with the stoning of Steven. In the midst of that 7 years (or in the midst of the week) Messiah was cut off, causing the sacrifice and oblation to be of none effect. The covenant was confirmed for one week (7 years) through the preaching of the gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. After the stoning of Steven the gospel went to the gentiles.
Israel's 70 weeks that was determined for them was over.


Although I agree with some of what you say, I think that you misinterpret the whole purpose of the book of Daniel. Sorry.

The book of Daniel is about how Gods people were scattered among the nations in losing their Kingdom because of their sin, and how long that they will be among the nations until the Kingdom is restored.

God is showing though the book of Daniel that the Kingdom of Zion will once again be restored on the earth in such a way that it will never fail again.

Act 1:6 Then, indeed, coming together they questioned Him, saying, Lord, do You restore the kingdom to Israel at this time?
Act 1:7 And He said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons which the Father placed in His own authority;


Peter did not say this because He was daft, and God did not make sure that these words were recorded by Luke because He wanted to embarass Peter. They were recorded to show that Peter and the others had just gotten a crash course from the Lord about the Kingdom of God and that it would be restored on the earth in more Glory and unfailingly than it had even been before but the timing was not disclosed to them.

Act 1:3 to whom also He presented Himself living after His suffering, by many infallible proofs, being seen by them through forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God.


Israel (the household of faith) was not gathered in the time of Christ or the early church, but was given the Spirit promised by the Father which has through the generations sought out members of Christs Bride who will be gathered in the future, both the dead and the alive, with Her new children, from among the nations when the Kingdom will then be restored.

This will occur at the end of the 70 weeks of time prophecy.

We have 3.5 years of this prophecy yet to run to its end, in which the covenant will be confirmed by Christ through His witnesses before this age ends at Christs bodily return from Heaven right at the point of the 1263.5 day mark, which ends the 70 weeks prophecy time with the anointing of the Most Holy in their resurrection.

There shall then be 30 days of Gods wrath poured out on the Beast and his worshippers ending with Armageddon and a further 45 days of setting up of the Kingdom when those of the nations left who obeyed the message of the two witnesses, will be blessed at the 1335 day mark in the greater pouring out of God's Spirit from His Throne. Rev.22:1-2.

Merton.

brakelite
Mar 22nd 2008, 08:53 PM
Although the gospel did extend to the furthest reaches of Asia and Europe in the first 2 or 3 centuries, I think there were areas still untouched in the Americas and Africa. The 'world' Paul speaks of here was hyperbolic and I think more local.