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k10
Mar 13th 2008, 04:52 AM
I am an atheist, many of my friends are Christian, but they have failed to answer a few questions I have about the Christain faith.

To start off, one problem I have with Christianity is "redemption"

Many modern christian sects believe that in order to reach heaven, and receive eternal life, one must follow christ as their true savior. The problem i have is, if god is all powerful, and he really DOES love everyone on the earth, why can he not allow everyone into heaven? Is heaven limited? Then god is not all powerful. Does god not want everyone in heaven even though he loves them?

The second is a more creation of the universe type questione. If god created the universe, what was around before it? If there was nothing, how would god exist? If god has existed before the universe, what made him suddenly decide to create an endlessly expanding (as science has proven), infinite expanse and decide that on one tiny planet, out of the millions upon millions of other possible locations, why did he decide to put man here on this earth?

Tanya~
Mar 13th 2008, 05:22 AM
Hi k10,



Many modern christian sects believe that in order to reach heaven, and receive eternal life, one must follow christ as their true savior. The problem i have is, if god is all powerful, and he really DOES love everyone on the earth, why can he not allow everyone into heaven? Is heaven limited? Then god is not all powerful. Does god not want everyone in heaven even though he loves them?

It has nothing to do with what God can and cannot do; it has everything to do with what God has chosen to do. To enter the kingdom of heaven, man must come on God's terms, not his own terms. The kingdom is God's and it is not unreasonable that He would determine the conditions for entrance.

Additionally, it would not be reasonable for God to receive into His kingdom, to be with Him for all eternity, those who are in rebellion against Him.


The second is a more creation of the universe type questione. If god created the universe, what was around before it?

Einstein has shown that time itself is part of the universe, so this fact renders the question moot. There was no 'before' because 'before' is a 'time' word. Time was created when the universe was created: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."


If there was nothing, how would god exist?

Life is in God who has no beginning or end. We don't have life in and of ourselves; it is given to us by God and can be taken away from us. His life is eternal. He has given life to us and offers us eternal life as a free gift for all who believe in His Son.


out of the millions upon millions of other possible locations, why did he decide to put man here on this earth?

God made the earth itself especially for the purpose of being a place for man to live. The other heavenly bodies were made to declare God's glory, and to be for lights as well as for signs and seasons from the perspective of the earth.

Athanasius
Mar 13th 2008, 05:25 AM
I am an atheist, many of my friends are Christian, but they have failed to answer a few questions I have about the Christain faith.

To start off, one problem I have with Christianity is "redemption"

Many modern christian sects believe that in order to reach heaven, and receive eternal life, one must follow christ as their true savior. The problem i have is, if god is all powerful, and he really DOES love everyone on the earth, why can he not allow everyone into heaven? Is heaven limited? Then god is not all powerful. Does god not want everyone in heaven even though he loves them?

The second is a more creation of the universe type questione. If god created the universe, what was around before it? If there was nothing, how would god exist? If god has existed before the universe, what made him suddenly decide to create an endlessly expanding (as science has proven), infinite expanse and decide that on one tiny planet, out of the millions upon millions of other possible locations, why did he decide to put man here on this earth?

To answer the first question: God does allow anyone and everyone to enter heaven, if they follow Him. But not everyone chooses to follow God.
John 14:6;

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".

We don't know what was before this known universe, it in all honesty doesn't really matter. It definitely wasn't nothing, however. Nothing is something that has never existed:rolleyes: Can't tell you why God created a supposedly ever expanding universe will billions of planets. But He created us to share in the experience of existence--joy, for one.

k10
Mar 13th 2008, 05:33 AM
Hi k10,



It has nothing to do with what God can and cannot do; it has everything to do with what God has chosen to do. To enter the kingdom of heaven, man must come on God's terms, not his own terms. The kingdom is God's and it is not unreasonable that He would determine the conditions for entrance.

I am not questioning God's terms for entrance to heaven, I am questioning why God would appear so malevolent as to doom his children to an eternal suffering in hell.





Additionally, it would not be reasonable for God to receive into His kingdom, to be with Him for all eternity, those who are in rebellion against Him.

This statement makes God appear spiteful. If it is true that he loves everyone, I don't think he would hold a grudge against them.

Also, about those who have never received the word of god, are they doomed to hell as well? I don't see them as "in rebellion against god." And what about muslims or hindus? Often times they are among the most devoted and dogmatic of religions, yet they will be punished for living in a different region of the world where a separate religion is dominant? Why doesn't god "make" everyone christian? why doesnt he appear and show the world the "light?"


Einstein has shown that time itself is part of the universe, so this fact renders the question moot. There was no 'before' because 'before' is a 'time' word. Time was created when the universe was created: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."



This is also misleading. In one way, it sounds like you are saying that god came about when the universe came about, which would mean that god is not omnipotent. On the other hand, it sounds like you are saying god transcends time and space. This is a bit hard to swallow without any real evidence (besides the bible).




Life is in God who has no beginning or end. We don't have life in and of ourselves; it is given to us by God and can be taken away from us. His life is eternal. He has given life to us and offers us eternal life as a free gift for all who believe in His Son.

But if god is all powerful, why would he have to devote his son's life for us? Why couldn't he just make sin go away instantly? Is he unable? then he is truly not omnipotent.
[/quote]


God made the earth itself especially for the purpose of being a place for man to live. The other heavenly bodies were made to declare God's glory, and to be for lights as well as for signs and seasons from the perspective of the earth.

But why would he make a universe that is rapidly expanding, and why would he include such destructive forces like black holes?

Thankyou for your time.

k10
Mar 13th 2008, 05:37 AM
To answer the first question: God does allow anyone and everyone to enter heaven, if they follow Him. But not everyone chooses to follow God.
John 14:6;

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".

We don't know what was before this known universe, it in all honesty doesn't really matter. It definitely wasn't nothing, however. Nothing is something that has never existed:rolleyes: Can't tell you why God created a supposedly ever expanding universe will billions of planets. But He created us to share in the experience of existence--joy, for one.

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Cosmos/ExpandUni.html -On the ever changing state of the Universe.

If god created us to experience the joy of life, why would he condemn most of us to hell? And how can we be certain the bible is the absolute truth?

My apologies for the double post.

Athanasius
Mar 13th 2008, 05:40 AM
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Cosmos/ExpandUni.html -On the ever changing state of the Universe.

If god created us to experience the joy of life, why would he condemn most of us to hell? And how can we be certain the bible is the absolute truth?

My apologies for the double post.

I'm well acquainted with cosmology, thanks for the article ;)

Well, I'm sure you've heard it before but God doesn't condemn us to hell--we make the choice to go there in rejecting God. And I really think that's a big part of hell; separation from God for eternity.

For your second question, I'd forward you to a post I wrote a few days ago:
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1561718&postcount=3

There is a link to a youtube video, I highly recommend you watch it.

k10
Mar 13th 2008, 05:48 AM
I'm well acquainted with cosmology, thanks for the article ;)

Well, I'm sure you've heard it before but God doesn't condemn us to hell--we make the choice to go there in rejecting God. And I really think that's a big part of hell; separation from God for eternity.

For your second question, I'd forward you to a post I wrote a few days ago:
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1561718&postcount=3

There is a link to a youtube video, I highly recommend you watch it.

I watched the video, thanks, but still, in many parts of the world people do not have access to christianity, so are they doomed? what about before Jesus was around? Are all of those people in hell?


I have a hard time believing that entrance to everlasting life depends only on a single belief(This allows for incredible crimes; in this belief murder is acceptable if you believe in jesus). It makes more sense to me that one's actions on earth would decide the person's afterlife.

Athanasius
Mar 13th 2008, 05:56 AM
I watched the video, thanks, but still, in many parts of the world people do not have access to christianity, so are they doomed? what about before Jesus was around? Are all of those people in hell?

What's your thoughts on the truth claim of the Bible?

The Bible doesn't explicitly mention, to my knowledge, what happens to people who have never heard the Gospel. It's considered an 'uncomfortable' question that even many seminaries don't wish to touch on. With that said. . .

God reveals Himself many ways (I think He's quite self evident, but that's just me). One of those ways was the Old Testament Yahwaic 'religion'; even before the Jews. It's very possible that Yahweh (God's name), was very well known in antiquity. The priesthood of Melchizedek being existence before the covenant with Abraham would suggest that God has always been intimately involved with the world. You can find Melchizedek in Genesis 14.



I have a hard time believing that entrance to everlasting life depends only on a single belief(This allows for incredible crimes; in this belief murder is acceptable if you believe in jesus). It makes more sense to me that one's actions on earth would decide the person's afterlife.

It's a single, very complex, belief. I don't see how murder is acceptable in Christianity if it's expressly forbidden? Because along with the choice to follow Jesus is also the desire to follow the commandments of God, which are found all through the Bible. Through our fruit (our actions), our faith is attested. I'm not saying our works get us salvation--there's nothing we could do to attain salvation on our own. But they are the watermarks of the sincerity of our faith.

Because you are right; our actions here decide our destination in the afterlife. One of those actions has to be an acknowledgment of Christ as Lord.

And on that, I'm off to bed, have a good night.

Tanya~
Mar 13th 2008, 06:15 AM
I am not questioning God's terms for entrance to heaven, I am questioning why God would appear so malevolent as to doom his children to an eternal suffering in hell.

He didn't. He offers anyone who wills, to come to Him. The problem isn't God dooming His children, it is rebellious children refusing the conditions for entrance into His kingdom. If God had doomed His children, He would have made it so that they could not come to Him. But He went to a great deal of trouble to make it possible for you to come to Him. It is not God, but your own rejection of His terms that keeps you out of His kingdom.


This statement makes God appear spiteful. If it is true that he loves everyone, I don't think he would hold a grudge against them.

It has nothing to do with a grudge. Maybe it would help if I offered you an analogy. Let's say you are a sports fan and I have two tickets for great seats to the playoffs, and your favorite team is playing. I have offered the tickets to you. They are already purchased, just for you. The only thing I ask, is that you come and pick them up. (There are no extenuating circumstances that prevent you from being able to do this.) If you choose not to stop by and pick up the tickets, do I have a grudge against you? Not at all. The tickets are there for you. It is your own choice to reject the tickets. Maybe you're angry and believe I should take the tickets over to your house. Well God did, as it were, take the ticket right down to us. But we still have to receive it. You have to take that ticket that is freely offered to you. But if you slap it away, there isn't a whole lot that I can do about that, is there?

God is holding no grudge. It is people who hold grudges against Him and reject His free gift to their own hurt. God has done everything necessary to make a way for you to enjoy the kingdom of heaven. If you reject what He has offered, that cannot be turned back against Him. He has already paid your way, by sending His Son to die for your sins. You are free to receive or reject it.



Also, about those who have never received the word of god, are they doomed to hell as well?

The Bible teaches that the light of Christ has shone on everyone. God knows the heart and He knows to what extent His revelation has reached any given person. God doesn't hold us accountable for what we do not have, but for what we do have.

Each and every person has had some degree or another of revelation from God. How a person responds to what God has given, whether they believe Him or reject Him, will determine whether they receive more revelation or not. God sees the heart.




This is also misleading. In one way, it sounds like you are saying that god came about when the universe came about, which would mean that god is not omnipotent. On the other hand, it sounds like you are saying god transcends time and space. This is a bit hard to swallow without any real evidence (besides the bible).[/qoute]

I'm sorry I can't provide physical evidence for you of this Being who transcends time and space. But if you know a little science, you will know that the universe consists of space and time. Time is a part of the creation, it isn't outside of it. God is the One who created the space-time continuum. If that's a little much to wrap your head around, you aren't alone. But God is bigger than we are, and that is as it should be, don't you agree? Otherwise how could He be truly God?

[quote]But if god is all powerful, why would he have to devote his son's life for us? Why couldn't he just make sin go away instantly? Is he unable? then he is truly not omnipotent.


It has nothing to do with God's omnipotence. It has everything to do with God's justice. Sin is an offense against God's perfect holiness, and God's justice demands that sin be judged with justice. Human beings generally understand the concept of justice. Sin doesn't just 'go away.' But God has taken away our sin by providing Atonement for our sin. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died for our sins. Anyone who believes in Him is saved, because he/she accepts Jesus' death on his/her behalf.



But why would he make a universe that is rapidly expanding, and why would he include such destructive forces like black holes?

The Bible teaches that the creation is currently in a state of decay/corruption. There's 'bad stuff' in the creation that wasn't there originally. This came about because of sin. This is a temporary situation, and the Lord has given us a promise. There will be a resurrection of the dead, and at that time the earth itself (and all creation) will be delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, decay) that characterizes the present state of things.



Rom 8:18-25

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
NKJV

k10
Mar 13th 2008, 06:28 AM
You've both made some good points, and i'll respond tomorow. I'm tired so my brain is a bit dead at the moment hehe.

markedward
Mar 13th 2008, 06:36 AM
Many modern christian sects believe that in order to reach heaven, and receive eternal life, one must follow christ as their true savior. The problem i have is, if god is all powerful, and he really DOES love everyone on the earth, why can he not allow everyone into heaven?Justice. Why doesn't a judge allow a murderer to walk around in public? The murderer is hopefully brought to justice and sent to jail. Society (hopefully) condemns wrongdoing and punishes it. God is the same way.


Is heaven limited? Then god is not all powerful.You didn't even wait for an answer to the question before you decided for yourself what the answer was. How can I answer your question when you've already made up your mind? This question isn't genuine, it's biased from the start.


Does god not want everyone in heaven even though he loves them?Read John 3:16 sometime. God requires that justice be served. So a person can either be brought to justice and condemned, or brought to justice and forgiven through Christ. God loves everyone, but everyone must be brought to justice for their evils. Right and wrong are not relative. If we all agree that "murder" is evil, then we agree that there is some sort of absolute morality. We may disagree on what that morality is, but we believe God is the source of that absolute morality. Just as you wouldn't expect a murderer to be allowed to walk around your town freely instead of being brought to justice, why do you pull out a double standard and suddenly expect evil-doers to be allowed to walk around heaven freely instead of being brought to justice?


The second is a more creation of the universe type questione. If god created the universe, what was around before it?Just God.


If there was nothing, how would god exist?God is. This may not sound like an acceptable answer (mostly because the human mind finds it difficult to grasp the idea of "infinite" or "eternity"), but consider this: time has been determined through scientific tests to be an element of the universe. God created the universe. Thus, God created time. Technically, there is no "before" to God, because He is not a temporal being as we are. He exists outside of time; He has no before, He has no after. He simply is.


If god has existed before the universe, what made him suddenly decide to create an endlessly expanding (as science has proven),You mean theorized. If the universe is "ever-expanding" that means it has is not infinite in any direction. If a bubble were to expand, it would need a definite edge for it to be able to have that edge move outwards. The same for the universe. So, unless scientists can physically see this edge of the universe and go outside of it and physically observe the universe "endlessly expanding," then "endless expansion" is an unproven theory. Continuing...


infinite expanseAgain, the universe cannot be both "infinite" and "expanding." Expansion infers that it grows, and something cannot grow unless it has an "outside" to it. For something to grow, it must extend itself into space that it already does not take up. That, by definition, means that it isn't infinite. If it's infinite, it can't grow any farther because it is infinitely far in any given direction. If it is growing, it can't be infinite, because it has a definitive distance in a certain direction that is continually adding to. In short: you can't add to something infinite.


and decide that on one tiny planet, out of the millions upon millions of other possible locations, why did he decide to put man here on this earth?It's not like God pointed into the universe and said "Eeny meeny miny moe," like some kid looking at a shelf full of different kinds of candy. God made each and every planet, so what He picked was not random chance, it was definitive choice. You can't look at Mars and say "Why not that one?" No other planet (as science has evidenced, though not proven) can support life in the form that God had made that planet. Only earth. He specifically made this planet for the purpose of containing life, not "which random habitable planet should I pick?" So, as far as we know (and have seen from other planets), we're the only habitable one. That's a good enough reason to pick it for us to inhabit.

And that aside, how does "Why did God pick earth" prevent a person from believing in Him?

th1bill
Mar 13th 2008, 07:15 AM
I am an atheist, many of my friends are Christian, but they have failed to answer a few questions I have about the Christain faith.

To start off, one problem I have with Christianity is "redemption"

Many modern christian sects believe that in order to reach heaven, and receive eternal life, one must follow christ as their true savior. The problem i have is, if god is all powerful, and he really DOES love everyone on the earth, why can he not allow everyone into heaven? Is heaven limited? Then god is not all powerful. Does god not want everyone in heaven even though he loves them?
.. The only limits on Heaven are those imposed by God. The perfect will of God is that should repent and be saved. (Eze. 33:10-12) God does want everyone in Heaven but He cannot stand sin to be next to Him, that is why Jesus had to die for us. Jesus was without sin because He was God in the flesh of a man and He paid the sin debt we owe and if we will accept that payment by Him we receive His imputed righteousness and then we can stand along side God.


The second is a more creation of the universe type questione. If god created the universe, what was around before it? If there was nothing, how would god exist? If god has existed before the universe, what made him suddenly decide to create an endlessly expanding (as science has proven), infinite expanse and decide that on one tiny planet, out of the millions upon millions of other possible locations, why did he decide to put man here on this earth?
First off, I'm certain that you were taught that science had proven your statement about the universe but the truth is that they have theorized this to be the truth and a theory is no more than somebodies idea of how it might have happed or be happening.

God put man on this planet because He created this planet for man. I know that sounds simple but that is all there is to it.

Okay, where did God exist? The very same place He resides in at this very moment. God and the angels are spirit beings and spirit being have no extension in space and time except God commands it to be so.

Frances
Mar 13th 2008, 07:00 PM
if god is all powerful, and he really DOES love everyone on the earth, why can he not allow everyone into heaven? ?
Because Sin is abhorant to Him.
He gives us the choice of doing His Will and being with Him, or doing our own will without Him.

If god has existed before the universe, what made him suddenly decide to create an endlessly expanding (as science has proven), infinite expanse and decide that on one tiny planet, out of the millions upon millions of other possible locations, why did he decide to put man here on this earth?
He hasn't told us.

aliveinchrist
Mar 13th 2008, 11:47 PM
I have a hard time believing that entrance to everlasting life depends only on a single belief(This allows for incredible crimes; in this belief murder is acceptable if you believe in jesus). It makes more sense to me that one's actions on earth would decide the person's afterlife.

You know, the one thing I don't like about humans? Is that they have to twist everything to suit what they want/want to hear, etc.

Murder is NOT acceptable by Jesus. For one, Jesus said love others and treat people kindly and with gentleness. For two, God said "Thou shalt not kill".

How does that advocate murder?

It doesn't. Jesus doesn't advocate murder. Neither does God. PEOPLE advocate murder and they claim it's "in the name of Jesus". HA! It's not in the name of Jesus, because Jesus constantly preaches love, love, love, love...........kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, lack of envy/jealousy, etc.

People claim it's in the name of Jesus, so they can excuse the wrong they are doing. Murder is acceptable only by people. Jesus weeps for those that kill and are killed by evil people's hands.

One's actions cannot decide the person's afterlife.

why?

Just because you do good works, doesn't mean your heart is good.

It's what's in your heart, and where your heart is at (in Jesus), that matters to God.

If a person that has an evil heart does good works, does that make him a good person? Does that make his heart less evil?

Nope. His heart is still evil and he's doing good works to make himself look better.

Good works only count when they come DURING your walk with Christ.

k10
Mar 14th 2008, 02:49 AM
You know, the one thing I don't like about humans? Is that they have to twist everything to suit what they want/want to hear, etc.

Murder is NOT acceptable by Jesus. For one, Jesus said love others and treat people kindly and with gentleness. For two, God said "Thou shalt not kill".

How does that advocate murder?

It doesn't. Jesus doesn't advocate murder. Neither does God. PEOPLE advocate murder and they claim it's "in the name of Jesus". HA! It's not in the name of Jesus, because Jesus constantly preaches love, love, love, love...........kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, lack of envy/jealousy, etc.

People claim it's in the name of Jesus, so they can excuse the wrong they are doing. Murder is acceptable only by people. Jesus weeps for those that kill and are killed by evil people's hands.

One's actions cannot decide the person's afterlife.

why?

Just because you do good works, doesn't mean your heart is good.

It's what's in your heart, and where your heart is at (in Jesus), that matters to God.

If a person that has an evil heart does good works, does that make him a good person? Does that make his heart less evil?

Nope. His heart is still evil and he's doing good works to make himself look better.

Good works only count when they come DURING your walk with Christ.

I'm sorry if I offended any of you, that was not my intention.

However, to refute your point, there are many places in the new testiment where Jesus talks about murder and the killing of other humans- a few examples:

15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
------------

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
----------

18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

^ this one seems almost ludicrous, self mutilation in return for everlasting life?

-----------

10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat^ Not a quote from jesus, but Peter.

----------

7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


------------



I just cannot wrap my head around a god that would willingly destroy his own people if he loves them. There are many references in the bible of god "throwing the wicked" into a lake of fire, yet Jesus preached that god loves all men.

danield
Mar 14th 2008, 04:16 AM
I think you have read some great responses to your posts above, And for some reason I find Romans 9:17 thru 24 might be of some help to you.




For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

You have defiantly heard the message but do not believe, and you have studied the universe and all its complexities, but do not feel that there is a creator behind all the glory you see when you look up at night or in life itself here on earth. I just don’t understand how some people can doubt that there is a creator that brought the birth of all that we see. Nor can I understand how someone can think of our creator as being malevolent since he was the one who breathed life into each of us to begin with.

May God bless you in all that you do!

markdrums
Mar 14th 2008, 07:59 AM
I'm sorry if I offended any of you, that was not my intention.

However, to refute your point, there are many places in the new testiment where Jesus talks about murder and the killing of other humans- a few examples:

15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
------------

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
----------

18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

^ this one seems almost ludicrous, self mutilation in return for everlasting life?

-----------

10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat^ Not a quote from jesus, but Peter.

----------

7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


------------



I just cannot wrap my head around a god that would willingly destroy his own people if he loves them. There are many references in the bible of god "throwing the wicked" into a lake of fire, yet Jesus preached that god loves all men.


I can see you've been visiting the websites like "1001 contradictions in the bible...." :lol:

The thing about scripture is, you MUST read entire passages to get the context, not just a couple verses here & there. Otherwise, you can make it sound like anything you want. (The same goes for ANY type of communication... Movies, books, or even conversation in general)

Example: In some earlier posts you, yourself said:
"I am not questioning God's terms for entrance to heaven....." "...entrance to everlasting life depends only on a single belief..."
"...God transcends time and space...."

So you MUST be a believer!! :pp
**Believe me You DID write those exact words in a couple earlier posts in this thread... go back & see for yourself***

This is the very same tactict used by skeptics to "refute the Bible"...

However, every single (so-called) "contradiction" has been proven to be nothing more than either misquoting, or twisting of context.... It's all Old News to believers..... and rather boring. zzzzzzzz

You asked about this: (concernig Murder)

10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat^ Not a quote from jesus, but Peter.

Even without knowing which specific book you're quoting, & without reading anything but these 3 verses, common sense alsone tells us it has nothing to do with murdering people. (hmmmm... animals? Kill and eat?....) I wonder what that means???? Oh yeah!! FOOD!

The whole "Cutting off the foot... plucking out your eye..." thing was again, MISINTERPRETED, and taken without context. This is a COMMON form of verbal & written communication, called "HYPERBOLE". - An extreme exaggeration, used to emphasise a particular point.
The context of this (in simple terms) is, If there's something in your life keeping you from your ultimate goal (In this case, the kingdom of God) Get rid of it! Cut it out of your life!
- Using the same type of advice in a different situation:
You want to be a Professional Athlete? Then Quit Smoking! If your hands & lips want to use tobacco, & destroy your lungs, cut them off, because they'll cause you to pick up a cigarette, and lead you straight to faliure!!

The other 2 examples you gave were about justice, & choice / action / consequence. Just like today, we have rules & laws to follow. Every choice a person makes, potentially comes with a price.

That's all for now. I need to go kill a bowl of Cocoa Puffs, I'm hungry!! (& yes, that makes me a "cereal killer")

aliveinchrist
Mar 15th 2008, 02:11 PM
I'm sorry if I offended any of you, that was not my intention.

No no. You didn't offend me. Not at all! When I said that, that was in reference to people who like to kill other people and say "But Jesus wanted me to!"

However, to refute your point, there are many places in the new testiment where Jesus talks about murder and the killing of other humans- a few examples:

15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
------------

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
----------

18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

^ this one seems almost ludicrous, self mutilation in return for everlasting life?

-----------

10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat^ Not a quote from jesus, but Peter.

----------

7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


------------



I just cannot wrap my head around a god that would willingly destroy his own people if he loves them. There are many references in the bible of god "throwing the wicked" into a lake of fire, yet Jesus preached that god loves all men.


I think Markdrums explained these quite while and I hope you read his post carefully. You HAVE to read scriptures in context. Meaning, read them with the rest of the chapter. Otherwise, they're going to sound like what you are saying they read.

Jesus absolutely DOES NOT advocate murder. That would go against His loving soul/nature, and everything He teaches.

th1bill
Mar 15th 2008, 03:51 PM
I just cannot wrap my head around a god that would willingly destroy his own people if he loves them. There are many references in the bible of god "throwing the wicked" into a lake of fire, yet Jesus preached that god loves all men.
.. You are missing the picture because your stuck in one corner with your focus. You need to step back and get the overview. God does not destroy anyone. All men and women are immortal.
.. And now before the hounds of Hell eat my lunch, let me explain. God created man, a.k.a. humanity, in His image and God is forever and so are we. When God takes a person out of 'this' world they do not cease to exist. They are transformed into beings that then exist in the spirit realm. Saved men are instantly in the presence of God and lost men are in a place known by many names but they are not in Hell. No one goes to Hell until they stand the Great White Throne Judgement.
.. On the other hand, God is not a bully! Every human that lives or ever has lived on the earth has had the ability to seek after or to reject God. And if a person rejects God, God will not force them to live, eternally, in His presence. The wicked, those that have rejected seeking after the one true God, have made their choice and God will honor that choice.
.. I realize that there are holes that need to be filled in for a complete picture to be drawn but I am unable to do that and for good reason. Acceptance or rejection of God is done on the basis of faith. All of mankind chooses where they place that faith. A few of us have chosen to believe God and to seek after Him. Others have chosen small golden idols, others have chosen concrete or stone idols placed along their sidewalk entrances to their homes and a even greater number have chosen to believe in men.
.. No, I'm not crazy. Most people believe in some form of evolution in spite of the self evident truth that the evidence proclaim that such is not true. And yet because 'educated' men have dreamed up this idea of man coming out of a warm pool of chemicals, they believe it.
.. But the only thing that matters in the end of it all, what will you choose? All other issues are purely for distraction.

DanDMan64
Mar 17th 2008, 09:21 PM
I am an atheist, many of my friends are Christian, but they have failed to answer a few questions I have about the Christain faith.

To start off, one problem I have with Christianity is "redemption"

Many modern christian sects believe that in order to reach heaven, and receive eternal life, one must follow christ as their true savior. The problem i have is, if god is all powerful, and he really DOES love everyone on the earth, why can he not allow everyone into heaven? Is heaven limited? Then god is not all powerful. Does god not want everyone in heaven even though he loves them?

The second is a more creation of the universe type questione. If god created the universe, what was around before it? If there was nothing, how would god exist? If god has existed before the universe, what made him suddenly decide to create an endlessly expanding (as science has proven), infinite expanse and decide that on one tiny planet, out of the millions upon millions of other possible locations, why did he decide to put man here on this earth?Dear k10, I have red the replies from others to this statements and it seems to me they are valid, but of course I'm biased because I happen to agree with them.

Now before I attempt to explain spiritual things to you which you may never be able to comprehend, because your brain and your reasoning will always find a way to either explain them away, or simply dismiss them as nonsense; Let me ask you a simple multiple choice question if I may?

If I gave you answers to these and many other questions which you could not find a reasonable way to contradict, and in fact I was able to "prove" to you that God is real, how would that impact your life personally? Would this knowledge cause you to...:

A. Accept Him as God and worship Him and serve Him.
B. Accept He is real but would not deter you from living as you wish.
C. Reject all my claims anyway and continue to Deny He exists.
D. Reject all my claims and make-up unreasonable answers to try to convince others not to believe me.

I'm just trying to "gage" what type of "atheist" we're dealing with here. :hmm:

k10
Apr 3rd 2008, 04:30 AM
Dear k10, I have red the replies from others to this statements and it seems to me they are valid, but of course I'm biased because I happen to agree with them.

Now before I attempt to explain spiritual things to you which you may never be able to comprehend, because your brain and your reasoning will always find a way to either explain them away, or simply dismiss them as nonsense; Let me ask you a simple multiple choice question if I may?

If I gave you answers to these and many other questions which you could not find a reasonable way to contradict, and in fact I was able to "prove" to you that God is real, how would that impact your life personally? Would this knowledge cause you to...:

A. Accept Him as God and worship Him and serve Him.
B. Accept He is real but would not deter you from living as you wish.
C. Reject all my claims anyway and continue to Deny He exists.
D. Reject all my claims and make-up unreasonable answers to try to convince others not to believe me.

I'm just trying to "gage" what type of "atheist" we're dealing with here. :hmm:


Sorry i've been gone a little while, hehe.



Anywho, if you were to prove, without a doubt, as in God appearing to us, I would believe. This doesn't just go for christianity, if i were to witness god on earth I would believe. The thing is, this hasn't happened yet (well, not since biblical times....coincidence?) and it doesn't seem like it will happen in my lifetime.

I still don't understand why god would create man yet have the majority go to hell when he has the power to stop it. If you could stop your child from say, getting into drugs and leading a path of self destruction, wouldn't you?


I'm not trying to convince anyone by the way...If i wanted to do that i certainly would not go to a bible discussion board ;)

DanDMan64
Apr 3rd 2008, 07:42 PM
Sorry i've been gone a little while, hehe.



Anywho, if you were to prove, without a doubt, as in God appearing to us, I would believe. This doesn't just go for christianity, if i were to witness god on earth I would believe. The thing is, this hasn't happened yet (well, not since biblical times....coincidence?) and it doesn't seem like it will happen in my lifetime.Well it's good to know you would believe, but that's still doesn't really answer my question. I mean the Bible says the devils believe and tremble, but still they go on living in rebellion to His will, at least according to my view of things. Again I say, how would your "believing" affect you personally?


...I still don't understand why god would create man yet have the majority go to hell when he has the power to stop it. If you could stop your child from say, getting into drugs and leading a path of self destruction, wouldn't you? To really understand the answer to that question you'd have to do two things. 1. believe in God and accept that He is real, 2. Ask God yourself through prayer, and listen for His answer in His Word (The Bible), that's what I believe as a Christian and in fact that's how I try to get my answers from God, through a personal relationship with Him.

But to answer your question as what I believe He has granted me to know about that subject. I don't have any kids, but common sense tells me that I as a loving parent would build-up a relationship with my child from the time he was born, I would establish a system of "rules, rewards, and discipline" to make the child understand that obeying the rules brings about rewards, but breaking the rules would mean swift disciplinary action. Eventually I would hope my efforts would help mold the child's character so that he would grow up to be an upstanding law-abiding citizen, and stay away from illicit drugs out of his own free will, thus making the old man proud. :thumbsup:

However, knowing the pressures that outside forces might bring upon my child's development, and my child's own tendency to test my patience, I would make a contingency plan that would no doubt involve a whole lot of love, patience, mercy, all my available resources, and in short do everything I could out of love for my child to keep him from getting into drugs and ultimately following that path into self destruction. :B

However, one thing I would not do is lock him-up in a closet and push food and water under a small door for his entire life, if I really loved him and longed for his love in return, this would not be the right way to go about it, it would be cruel to both of us wouldn't it?

The worst thing that I could do is let him grow-up any which way he wanted and not care if he grew-up to be a criminal or not, not if I really loved him, that would not be right either would it? :cool:

In God's case though, and please forgive me for having the audacity to try to step into His shoes, He shows His ultimate love for us by becoming our twin brother, being that upstanding citizen, taking the punishment for our crimes, giving us freedom to understand what He did and return the favor by letting Him show us how to take his place in society and slowly become that upstanding citizen ourselves without having to "fake it" too much, and thus getting back into a loving relationship with himself and still making Him, proud.

All that to answer your question, "...why god would create man yet have the majority go to hell when he has the power to stop it.?" He has done everything He can to stop men from going to hell, but ungrateful children do not appreciate the pain and suffering that was involved in having to take their punishment, and they don't want to do what it takes to become upstanding citizens, they'd rather take that freedom to continue being criminals and yet they hope the old man will be proud of them. You see the old man is also the judge, and He's not going to let a bunch of ungrateful criminals go free, even if they are the children He loves dearly, that wouldn't be right would it?

I'm not trying to convince anyone by the way...If i wanted to do that i certainly would not go to a bible discussion board ;)Well we hope you'll hang around our boards long enough to give us the chance to convince you, because we are convinced (or at least I know I am) that God is not only real, but alive and well and willing to let Himself be known, to all who are willing to believe in Him even though He chooses to remain invisible, though not "unreachable". John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 12:03 AM
Well it's good to know you would believe, but that's still doesn't really answer my question. I mean the Bible says the devils believe and tremble, but still they go on living in rebellion to His will, at least according to my view of things. Again I say, how would your "believing" affect you personally?

To really understand the answer to that question you'd have to do two things. 1. believe in God and accept that He is real, 2. Ask God yourself through prayer, and listen for His answer in His Word (The Bible), that's what I believe as a Christian and in fact that's how I try to get my answers from God, through a personal relationship with Him.

But to answer your question as what I believe He has granted me to know about that subject. I don't have any kids, but common sense tells me that I as a loving parent would build-up a relationship with my child from the time he was born, I would establish a system of "rules, rewards, and discipline" to make the child understand that obeying the rules brings about rewards, but breaking the rules would mean swift disciplinary action. Eventually I would hope my efforts would help mold the child's character so that he would grow up to be an upstanding law-abiding citizen, and stay away from illicit drugs out of his own free will, thus making the old man proud. :thumbsup:

However, knowing the pressures that outside forces might bring upon my child's development, and my child's own tendency to test my patience, I would make a contingency plan that would no doubt involve a whole lot of love, patience, mercy, all my available resources, and in short do everything I could out of love for my child to keep him from getting into drugs and ultimately following that path into self destruction. :B

However, one thing I would not do is lock him-up in a closet and push food and water under a small door for his entire life, if I really loved him and longed for his love in return, this would not be the right way to go about it, it would be cruel to both of us wouldn't it?

The worst thing that I could do is let him grow-up any which way he wanted and not care if he grew-up to be a criminal or not, not if I really loved him, that would not be right either would it? :cool:

In God's case though, and please forgive me for having the audacity to try to step into His shoes, He shows His ultimate love for us by becoming our twin brother, being that upstanding citizen, taking the punishment for our crimes, giving us freedom to understand what He did and return the favor by letting Him show us how to take his place in society and slowly become that upstanding citizen ourselves without having to "fake it" too much, and thus getting back into a loving relationship with himself and still making Him, proud.

All that to answer your question, "...why god would create man yet have the majority go to hell when he has the power to stop it.?" He has done everything He can to stop men from going to hell, but ungrateful children do not appreciate the pain and suffering that was involved in having to take their punishment, and they don't want to do what it takes to become upstanding citizens, they'd rather take that freedom to continue being criminals and yet they hope the old man will be proud of them. You see the old man is also the judge, and He's not going to let a bunch of ungrateful criminals go free, even if they are the children He loves dearly, that wouldn't be right would it?
Well we hope you'll hang around our boards long enough to give us the chance to convince you, because we are convinced (or at least I know I am) that God is not only real, but alive and well and willing to let Himself be known, to all who are willing to believe in Him even though He chooses to remain invisible, though not "unreachable". John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."


Like I said, I would believe instantly if god were to appear before us. On a personal level? It probably would not affect my morality much; I think I lead a moral life as it is: I don't steal, I don't cheat, I don't kill, I help people whenever possible etc.

DanDMan64
Apr 4th 2008, 12:26 AM
Like I said, I would believe instantly if god were to appear before us. On a personal level? It probably would not affect my morality much; I think I lead a moral life as it is: I don't steal, I don't cheat, I don't kill, I help people whenever possible etc.OK, I get it, you're basically a good decent person, an upstanding citizen even, in your opinion if there was a god, he would be proud of you and should take all these great attributes into consideration before sending you to hell right?

Basically you're saying your "atheist B:" in my survey, which was "B. Accept He is real but would not deter you from living as you wish." does that sound about right? :hmm:

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 01:41 AM
OK, I get it, you're basically a good decent person, an upstanding citizen even, in your opinion if there was a god, he would be proud of you and should take all these great attributes into consideration before sending you to hell right?

Basically you're saying your "atheist B:" in my survey, which was "B. Accept He is real but would not deter you from living as you wish." does that sound about right? :hmm:


"Living as I wish" is already morally right, so what's wrong with that?

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 02:46 AM
"Living as I wish" is already morally right, so what's wrong with that?

Hi K10,

There is nothing wrong with living a morally right life, that is good, but all your good deeds are like filthy rags to God.

Isaiah 64:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=64&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Whist you are living a morally good life, who are you living trying to please? Yourself or God

I gather by your replies to others you think living a righteous life should get you to heaven am I right?

dljc
Apr 4th 2008, 02:54 AM
Like I said, I would believe instantly if god were to appear before us. On a personal level? It probably would not affect my morality much; I think I lead a moral life as it is: I don't steal, I don't cheat, I don't kill, I help people whenever possible etc.Hi K10,

It's not a matter of now, as in this very moment.
Have you ever:
lied?
stolen?
cheated?

Here's what God's Word says:

1. Rom. 3:10, "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one...'"

2. Rom. 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

3. Rom. 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

4. Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

5. Rom. 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

6. Rom. 10:9-10, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

7. Rom. 10:13, "For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

Jamey
Apr 4th 2008, 03:14 AM
I'm a little late in the game but I'm gonna give this a shot K10,
I too at one time denied the existence of God. And I had the same questions you have.
On your first question about God's love....
Yes God is love. But He is also just. If He allowed everyone to enter heaven no matter if they followed Him or not, then He would not be just. And then He would not be God.
If any one can enter Heaven, that's not love, that's indifference.

On your second question,
We cannot define God, Who is an infinite being with finite terms. I believe it was R.C. Sproul who said We are either infinite beings or we are finite beings created by an infinite being.
We know that the universe is finite. We know this because we know it "came into existence". The secular view is the big bang theory (which still doesn't explain the origin of the universe). The Christian view is that God spoke it into being. But since the universe is finite, then it too had to be created by an infinite being.

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 04:21 AM
Hi K10,

There is nothing wrong with living a morally right life, that is good, but all your good deeds are like filthy rags to God.

Isaiah 64:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=64&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Whist you are living a morally good life, who are you living trying to please? Yourself or God

I gather by your replies to others you think living a righteous life should get you to heaven am I right?


I live a righteous life because it furthers society and humanity as a whole. I focus on becoming a better person for my own sake.


I'm a little late in the game but I'm gonna give this a shot K10,
I too at one time denied the existence of God. And I had the same questions you have.
On your first question about God's love....
Yes God is love. But He is also just. If He allowed everyone to enter heaven no matter if they followed Him or not, then He would not be just. And then He would not be God.
If any one can enter Heaven, that's not love, that's indifference.
That's like saying if your child became a drug addict or did some terrible crimes you would turn your back on them forever. I remind you, in christian doctrine, people spend eternity in hell. So there is no room for redemption? If you were unable to experience the word of god in this life (for an example, let's take the children involved in the Branch Davidian case in Wacco Texas), you are immediately condemned to hell upon death? How is that justice?


On your second question,
We cannot define God, Who is an infinite being with finite terms. I believe it was R.C. Sproul who said We are either infinite beings or we are finite beings created by an infinite being.
We know that the universe is finite. We know this because we know it "came into existence". The secular view is the big bang theory (which still doesn't explain the origin of the universe). The Christian view is that God spoke it into being. But since the universe is finite, then it too had to be created by an infinite being.

You're using circular reasoning. "The universe is finite because it exists." This i simply cannot believe.
As for the big bang theory, it does describe the origin of the universe based on the four fundamental forces (gravity, weak nuclear, strong nuclear and electromagnetism). It says that an infinitely dense point expanded because of the reaction of the fundamental forces, and created an ever expanding universe. I'm not saying that it's correct, I'm simply saying that it does have a theory on the origin.

IPet2_9
Apr 4th 2008, 04:28 AM
I think R.C. Sproul is the guy who dubbed the term "pre-existence". In other words, God just existed. Just did. He always was.

Really, when you think about it, it doesn't really make any sense why any of us are here at all. And yet here we are. The idea of pre-existence is foreign to us--I mean, everything has to have a beginning, right? Everything has to be created by something. And that thing had to be created by something. ad infinitum.... The problem is, something had to be first--God or no god. SOMETHING had to pre-exist. But the whole idea of pre-existence doesn't make any sense. And yet we don't have any choice BUT to believe it, because...well...here we are....

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 04:34 AM
I live a righteous life because it furthers society and humanity as a whole. I focus on becoming a better person for my own sake.

Firt do you believe in heaven? Then, if you believe in heaven, do you believe you will go to heaven?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 04:36 AM
Firt do you believe in heaven? Then, if you believe in heaven, do you believe you will go to heaven?
Currently I have no belief in the afterlife.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 04:53 AM
Currently I have no belief in the afterlife.

Hi K10,

Okay.

Do you believe there are micro organisms even though you can't see them with the naked eye?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 04:56 AM
Hi K10,

Okay.

Do you believe there are micro organisms even though you can't see them with the naked eye?


Yes because they have been observed for years. I know you're going to say "if you can believe that why not believe god?" Well, because micro organisms are proven to exist.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 05:00 AM
Yes because they have been observed for years. I know you're going to say "if you can believe that why not believe god?" Well, because micro organisms are proven to exist.

Did Jesus exist?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 05:04 AM
Did Jesus exist?


Yessir, there are numerous records of his existance.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 05:06 AM
Yessir, there are numerous records of his existance.


Who does the Bible say Jesus was?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 05:09 AM
Who does the Bible say Jesus was?



The son of god, and a part of the holy trinity.


I was raised lutheran, I know my stuff, and these history questions are getting old.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 05:25 AM
The son of god, and a part of the holy trinity.


I was raised lutheran, I know my stuff, and these history questions are getting old.

So you know your stuff, you know who Christ is, you know who God is, but the problem is you do not know God.

Do you want to know God?

Sorry I just had to add this.

No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 05:27 AM
So you know your stuff, you know who Christ is, you know who God is, but the problem is you do not know God.

Do you want to know God?


Sure if he exists.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 05:30 AM
Sure if he exists.


Did not God come down to this earth in the form of His Son?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 05:31 AM
Did not God come down to this earth in the form of His Son?

According to most protestant sects, yes.


However I do not believe that.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 05:33 AM
According to most protestant sects, yes.


However I do not believe that.

So all in all you have a head knowledge about God not a heart knowledge is that correct?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 05:35 AM
So all in all you have a head knowledge about God not a heart knowledge is that correct?


If you are saying that I know the word of god but i do not believe it, then yes, that is correct.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 05:40 AM
If you are saying that I know the word of god but i do not believe it, then yes, that is correct.

Then it is not the mind that needs an overhaul it is the heart.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 06:09 AM
K10 do you believe that Jesus was a real person not just someone spoken of in the Bible?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 06:15 AM
Yes i believe he was a real person.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 06:22 AM
Yes i believe he was a real person.

Yes he was a real person, He was a person with a mission to fulfill even before He was born.

Why was He born?

He was born to save sinners from the punishment of their sin.

Are you a sinner? Putting aside all your good and kind deeds.

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 06:31 AM
I know according to the bible it's from immaculate conception.


But in my opinion, I'd say it happened the same as everyone else.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 06:35 AM
I know according to the bible it's from immaculate conception.


But in my opinion, I'd say it happened the same as everyone else.

In your opinion was Jesus without sin?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 06:37 AM
In your opinion was Jesus without sin?


No I believe he was not without sin.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 06:39 AM
No I believe he was not without sin.

What do you base that opinion on?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 06:41 AM
What do you base that opinion on?


The fact that he was a human.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 06:42 AM
The fact that he was a human.

So you are saying you are a sinner because you are human?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 06:43 AM
So you are saying you are a sinner because you are human?


Doesn't the bible say that all men are sinners?

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 06:44 AM
Doesn't the bible say that all men are sinners?

I'm not worried about the Bible, because God wrote that and you don't believe it do you?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 06:46 AM
I'm not worried about the Bible, because God wrote that and you don't believe it do you?

Just pointing out a contradiction. I believe all men commit some form of wrongdoing throughout their lives.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 06:48 AM
Just pointing out a contradiction. I believe all men commit some form of wrongdoing throughout their lives.

What contradiction are you pointing out?
So you admit to being a sinner?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 06:50 AM
Yes I do and i believe you would as well.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 06:55 AM
Yes I do and i believe you would as well.

Yes I know I am a sinner. :yes:

How do I know I am a sinner by what standard do I have to go by?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 06:58 AM
Yes I know I am a sinner. :yes:

How do I know I am a sinner by what standard do I have to go by?


Personally I know I'm a sinner based on the societal standards we have set.


As for the contradiction, Jesus was a man, and the bible says that all men are sinners.

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 07:02 AM
Personally I know I'm a sinner based on the societal standards we have set.


As for the contradiction, Jesus was a man, and the bible says that all men are sinners.

Where did those societal standards that have been set come from?

Yes the Bible says Jesus was a man but it also says He was God doesn't it?

k10
Apr 4th 2008, 07:05 AM
Where did those societal standards that have been set come from?

Yes the Bible says Jesus was a man but it also says He was God doesn't it?

Societal standards have been evolving over the years of civilization.


If jesus was a man then he had sin. if jesus was also god, wouldn't god have sin as well?

DIZZY
Apr 4th 2008, 07:30 AM
Societal standards have been evolving over the years of civilization.


If jesus was a man then he had sin. if jesus was also god, wouldn't god have sin as well?

To evolve there must have been a beginning, where do you believe the societal standards come from?

No God is without sin and Jesus yes was a human but without sin also.

Jamey
Apr 4th 2008, 02:20 PM
You're using circular reasoning. "The universe is finite because it exists." This i simply cannot believe.
As for the big bang theory, it does describe the origin of the universe based on the four fundamental forces (gravity, weak nuclear, strong nuclear and electromagnetism). It says that an infinitely dense point expanded because of the reaction of the fundamental forces, and created an ever expanding universe. I'm not saying that it's correct, I'm simply saying that it does have a theory on the origin.K10
I am sorry but I don't think that I wrote that the universe is finite because it exists. Its finite because it has a beginning. (came into existance). So I don't think that is ciurcular reasoning. I too cannot believe in such reasoning. (ie the age of a fossil is determined by the stratus that it was found in....the age of the stratus is by the fossils that are found within)
This also was a struggle for me too. I would to suggest Lee Strobels "A Case For Christ". written by a former atheist who searched to debunk the belief in God.

DanDMan64
Apr 4th 2008, 04:52 PM
Like I said, I would believe instantly if god were to appear before us. On a personal level? It probably would not affect my morality much; I think I lead a moral life as it is: I don't steal, I don't cheat, I don't kill, I help people whenever possible etc.
Hello K10, I came back to my computer today ready to reply to an atheist who apparently had never had any Christian roots, and was astounded :o to find this statement in the discussion:


...I was raised lutheran, I know my stuff, and these history questions are getting old.
well if thatís the case, I would say that you in fact do not know your stuff, since according to the Lutheran statement of faith, they do believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, as stated in articles 4 and 5 bellow.


A Lutheran - Orthodox Common Statement on Faith in the Holy Trinity


(4) As Lutherans and Orthodox we confess together faith in "one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God." This eternal Son of God is "begotten, not made." Unlike any creature, he does not come to be out of nothing by an act of Godís will. He is eternally generated or begotten by the Father, receiving from the Father the Fatherís own divine nature or essence (ousia) which is undivided. He is therefore "one in essence [homoousios] with the Father." Although he is other than the Father, a hypostasis or person distinct from the Father, the Son is fully the one God, just as the Father is. Therefore as Lutherans and Orthodox we reject any form of Arianism, according to which the Son of God is less than fully God, and entitled to less than fully divine honor and worship.

(5) As Lutherans and Orthodox we confess together that this same eternal Son of God, "for us and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary, and was made man." Fully God from all eternity, the Fatherís only-begotten Son became fully human in time, accepting the whole reality of human life and death. We therefore confess together that in Christ two natures, divine and human, are inseparably united in one person, so that there is one Lord Jesus Christ, true God and true human being. The eternal Son of God himself was truly born, suffered, was crucified and died in the flesh; this same Son was buried in the flesh, rose from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the Fatherís right hand in heaven. The only-begotten and incarnate Son reveals the Father to us, and sends the Holy Spirit into the world.

So obviously being raised a Lutheran didnít do much to make the existence of God a reality in your life, and your belief that Jesus was just a man didnít come from the Lutherans, or your parents, so it must have come from somewhere else, (Remember those outside influences I told you about?)

K10 let me ask you this, in all your years, months, days, in the church, were you ever asked to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and Lord?:hmm: