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ProDeo
Mar 14th 2008, 12:02 PM
Hi all,

I am new here and I have a burning question which I am not able to answer conveniently.

Does the Bible states the why of our existence? For sure God had a purpose (or desire) in mind when He created the Universe and all within.

Thanks,

Ed

Roelof
Mar 14th 2008, 12:18 PM
Hi all,

I am new here and I have a burning question which I am not able to answer conveniently.

Does the Bible states the why of our existence? For sure God had a purpose (or desire) in mind when He created the Universe and all within.

Thanks,

Ed

Ed

Welcome on this forum.
You can read the book Purpose Driven Life, which I will not recommend.

We were created to worship God.

Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy. (Psa 99:9, KJV)

ProDeo
Mar 14th 2008, 12:31 PM
Hi Roelof,

God already created the angels to worship Him. Why the need to create another kind? Hence the original question remains.

Ed

Theophilus
Mar 14th 2008, 12:31 PM
This probably isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it's the best I can give you...Revelation 4:11 (NLT):

“You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power.
For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.”

He didn't make us because He was lonely, or needed us, or anything like that. He just made us because He wanted to. As I've stated before when questions like this are asked, Isaiah 55:6-9 talks about God's ways and thoughts are not like mankind's...His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. Sometimes, we just don't know.

To me, the real mystery is not why He created us...but why He created us, knowing how awful we can be at times.:)

Whispering Grace
Mar 14th 2008, 12:32 PM
God created us for His own glory, and I am glad He did. :)

Roelof
Mar 14th 2008, 12:37 PM
Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein. (Psa 69:34, KJV)

IWantMoshiach
Mar 14th 2008, 01:08 PM
yeah i agree with all the above posters...to answer your question about the angels maybe He takes delight in creatures that choose to worship(i.e. humans) Him unlike angels since they only carry out his missions without deciding right or wrong

Athanasius
Mar 14th 2008, 02:56 PM
Hi Roelof,

God already created the angels to worship Him. Why the need to create another kind? Hence the original question remains.

Ed

Where does it say that God created the angels solely to worship Him?

You could read the Purpose Driven Life, but I don't recommend it, as an above poster mentioned. God created us for His pleasure; so we could be in communion with Him, so we could experience creation with Him.

All things were created by God and for God ;)


yeah i agree with all the above posters...to answer your question about the angels maybe He takes delight in creatures that choose to worship(i.e. humans) Him unlike angels since they only carry out his missions without deciding right or wrong

You don't think angels have free will? What of the angels that worship God; I thought God didn't want forced (mindless) worship?

Souled Out
Mar 14th 2008, 03:51 PM
Hi all,

I am new here and I have a burning question which I am not able to answer conveniently.

Does the Bible states the why of our existence? For sure God had a purpose (or desire) in mind when He created the Universe and all within.

Thanks,

Ed

Did you sit down with God and ask Him? I'm sure He's more than willing to provide the answer.

Nyoka
Mar 15th 2008, 02:00 AM
I agree with the other posters here. The only thing I would add is that as a parent myself it means far more to me if my children choose to love me than if they love me because they have to and have no other choice. IMHO this is why God created humans. We can choose to love Him. Love, respect and worship given out of free choice means so much more than forced love ever will. Free will love and worship has an element in it that forced love and worship never has.

Lars777
Mar 15th 2008, 03:04 AM
Did you sit down with God and ask Him? I'm sure He's more than willing to provide the answer.




Amen to that!

If more people took this advise we would find more agreement than debate on these forums.

Great answer !!

Naphal
Mar 15th 2008, 03:38 AM
Amen to that!

If more people took this advise we would find more agreement than debate on these forums.

Great answer !!

Amen! Better yet, why don't people do this themselves and then post what God said to them to the rest of us?

Mograce2U
Mar 15th 2008, 04:07 AM
Amen! Better yet, why don't people do this themselves and then post what God said to them to the rest of us?You mean like speak the oracles of God to one another? (1 Pet 4:11) For that is exactly what we would be doing if we spoke only what God has spoken to us.

servantsheart
Mar 15th 2008, 05:09 AM
Hi rebel777, Isaiah 43:7 God created us for His glory. He created us in His likeness...we are his sons and his daughters, His children, his adopted children as heirs of Christ Jesus. He created us so that we might know HIM, love him and serve him. (God wants our friendship); verse 43:20 were are His people, his chosen.

ravi4u2
Mar 15th 2008, 06:56 AM
As Isaiah says, we are created for His glory. And Paul says that woman is the glory of man. So, if Christ is the perfect man and the Ecclesia is His Bride, than the reason for our creation is that we will be one with Him. Our Bridegroom!

Puritan
Mar 16th 2008, 12:47 AM
God created all things for Himself. For His pleasure. For His purpose. For His glory and yes, even the wicked have a purpose.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Brother Mark
Mar 16th 2008, 02:02 AM
Hi all,

I am new here and I have a burning question which I am not able to answer conveniently.

Does the Bible states the why of our existence? For sure God had a purpose (or desire) in mind when He created the Universe and all within.

Thanks,

Ed

We are created for his pleasure. In other words, our purpose is to please Him.

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
KJV

threebigrocks
Mar 16th 2008, 02:07 AM
Why are we here? To love Him.

BadDog
Mar 16th 2008, 10:19 PM
Hi Roelof,

God already created the angels to worship Him. Why the need to create another kind? Hence the original question remains.

Ed
Interesting question, Rebel777. The Bible does hint at another possible reason for His plans for mankind - in Ephesians 3...

Ephesians 3:9-12 He allowed me to explain the way this mystery works. God, who created all things, kept it hidden in the past. He did this so that now, through the church, he could let the rulers and authorities in heaven know his infinite wisdom. This was God's plan for all of history which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord. We can go to God with bold confidence through faith in Christ. (God's Word translation)

One view is that God wanted to demonstrate to spiritual beings (good and bad angels, etc.) His incredible plan to take those who were less than angels and enable us to have a relationship with God - through faith. They will and are glorifying God as they see His plan unfold. Ultimately, angels serve mankind. I imagine that the context here is of having Jews and Gentiles together in one body - based upon faith alone. All of the angelic host witness the church and must admit that this is evidence of God's amazing wisdom. We are told regarding God's great plan of salvation that it is something into which "angels long to look." - It is a mystery, even to angels.

Romans 8:38 tells us that not even angels or principalities can separate us from God. 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of even talking in the language of angels as if it is an amazing thing, and Galatians 3 tells us that the law was put into effect through angels. In Colossians 2 Paul warned against those who promoted the worship of angels.

When Christ returns He will be accompanied with His mighty angels, according to 2 Thessalonians 1. In 1 Timothy 3:16 Paul says that Jesus was seen by angels, proclaimed throughout the world, etc.. In Hebrews a major theme is that Jesus is far better than angels. In Hebrews 2:2 we are told that angels brought the Levitical law, but this gospel which we proclaim was brought by God's Son. The following text from Hebrews 2 speaks of God's plan to help mankind instead of angels:

Hebrews 2:14-18 Since all of these sons and daughters have flesh and blood, Jesus took on flesh and blood to be like them. He did this so that by dying he would destroy the one who had power over death (that is, the devil) [BD - a bad angel]. In this way he would free those who were slaves all their lives because they were afraid of dying. So Jesus helps Abraham's descendants rather than helping angels. Therefore, he had to become like his brothers and sisters so that he could be merciful. He became like them so that he could serve as a faithful chief priest in God's presence and make peace with God for their sins. Because Jesus experienced temptation when he suffered, he is able to help others when they are tempted.

How did the Son of God help humans? By becoming a human being and dying in their place. He never became an angel. He did not die in the place of angels. That's why I strongly react to those who refer to angels believing and trembling in James 2. It is often misunderstood. Jesus never died for angels. Angels are not saved by believing.

In Hebrews 9 we are told that those two cheribim (angels) had their wings over the mercy seat of the ark. In Hebrews 12 the writer says that we have not come to a quaking mountain (angels were involved in the giving of the law- remember), but to Jerusalem, to tens of thousands of angels gathered... In Peters first letter he writes:

1 Peter 1:12 God revealed to the prophets that the things they had spoken were not for their own benefit but for yours. What the prophets had spoken, the Holy Spirit, who was sent from heaven, has now made known to you by those who spread the Good News among you. These are things that even the angels want to look into.

In 2 Peter 2 we are told that God did not spare even angels who sinned, so how can he not be just with humans who sin? In Revelations 3 John writes that those who live victorious lives that Christ will acknowledge before His Father and the angels. Angels are intricately involved in serving God and in revealing His glory (see many instances in Revelations and Ezekial alone). And finally, when the new Jerusalem is built with its 12 gates, 12 angels will stand at those gates.

So God's plans are tied up closely with angels and other spiritual beings in heavenly places. Anyway, a key reason for our existence is wrapped up with the angels. Remember, they are spiritual beings.

Finally, in a different vein, Jesus spoke of what eternal life really is: a relationship with God:

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You - the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

Brother Mark gave an excellent response earlier from revelation 4:11 - we were created for His pleasure - so He must desire a relationship with us.

FWIW,

BD

dan
Mar 17th 2008, 12:12 AM
ROM 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

ROM 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Mograce2U
Mar 17th 2008, 01:49 AM
Hey BadDog,
I think that is exactly it. God has creatures in both the spiritual and natural realms. Angels do not need to walk by faith because they can see the Lord. Our faith is marvelous to them, considering that we cannot see God. It certainly is something to ponder as we consider that realm in which we cannot see yet have our hope.

BadDog
Mar 17th 2008, 10:02 PM
MoGrace,

I wonder if the angels are jealous?

Thx,

BD

ProDeo
Mar 20th 2008, 10:38 AM
Did you sit down with God and ask Him? I'm sure He's more than willing to provide the answer.

Your answer implies I haven't done that. ;)

How do you know?

Ed

ProDeo
Mar 20th 2008, 10:50 AM
Interesting question, Rebel777. The Bible does hint at another possible reason for His plans for mankind - in Ephesians 3...

Ephesians 3:9-12 He allowed me to explain the way this mystery works. God, who created all things, kept it hidden in the past. He did this so that now, through the church, he could let the rulers and authorities in heaven know his infinite wisdom. This was God's plan for all of history which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord. We can go to God with bold confidence through faith in Christ. (God's Word translation)

One view is that God wanted to demonstrate to spiritual beings (good and bad angels, etc.) His incredible plan to take those who were less than angels and enable us to have a relationship with God - through faith. They will and are glorifying God as they see His plan unfold. Ultimately, angels serve mankind. I imagine that the context here is of having Jews and Gentiles together in one body - based upon faith alone. All of the angelic host witness the church and must admit that this is evidence of God's amazing wisdom. We are told regarding God's great plan of salvation that it is something into which "angels long to look." - It is a mystery, even to angels.

Romans 8:38 tells us that not even angels or principalities can separate us from God. 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of even talking in the language of angels as if it is an amazing thing, and Galatians 3 tells us that the law was put into effect through angels. In Colossians 2 Paul warned against those who promoted the worship of angels.

When Christ returns He will be accompanied with His mighty angels, according to 2 Thessalonians 1. In 1 Timothy 3:16 Paul says that Jesus was seen by angels, proclaimed throughout the world, etc.. In Hebrews a major theme is that Jesus is far better than angels. In Hebrews 2:2 we are told that angels brought the Levitical law, but this gospel which we proclaim was brought by God's Son. The following text from Hebrews 2 speaks of God's plan to help mankind instead of angels:

Hebrews 2:14-18 Since all of these sons and daughters have flesh and blood, Jesus took on flesh and blood to be like them. He did this so that by dying he would destroy the one who had power over death (that is, the devil) [BD - a bad angel]. In this way he would free those who were slaves all their lives because they were afraid of dying. So Jesus helps Abraham's descendants rather than helping angels. Therefore, he had to become like his brothers and sisters so that he could be merciful. He became like them so that he could serve as a faithful chief priest in God's presence and make peace with God for their sins. Because Jesus experienced temptation when he suffered, he is able to help others when they are tempted.

How did the Son of God help humans? By becoming a human being and dying in their place. He never became an angel. He did not die in the place of angels. That's why I strongly react to those who refer to angels believing and trembling in James 2. It is often misunderstood. Jesus never died for angels. Angels are not saved by believing.

In Hebrews 9 we are told that those two cheribim (angels) had their wings over the mercy seat of the ark. In Hebrews 12 the writer says that we have not come to a quaking mountain (angels were involved in the giving of the law- remember), but to Jerusalem, to tens of thousands of angels gathered... In Peters first letter he writes:

1 Peter 1:12 God revealed to the prophets that the things they had spoken were not for their own benefit but for yours. What the prophets had spoken, the Holy Spirit, who was sent from heaven, has now made known to you by those who spread the Good News among you. These are things that even the angels want to look into.

In 2 Peter 2 we are told that God did not spare even angels who sinned, so how can he not be just with humans who sin? In Revelations 3 John writes that those who live victorious lives that Christ will acknowledge before His Father and the angels. Angels are intricately involved in serving God and in revealing His glory (see many instances in Revelations and Ezekial alone). And finally, when the new Jerusalem is built with its 12 gates, 12 angels will stand at those gates.

So God's plans are tied up closely with angels and other spiritual beings in heavenly places. Anyway, a key reason for our existence is wrapped up with the angels. Remember, they are spiritual beings.

Finally, in a different vein, Jesus spoke of what eternal life really is: a relationship with God:

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You - the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

Brother Mark gave an excellent response earlier from revelation 4:11 - we were created for His pleasure - so He must desire a relationship with us.

FWIW,

BD

Thank you bad dog for interesting answer also all the others.

I posted elsewhere the following and got zero response regarding content.

I have 2 hypothesis's, here is one:

IMO the creation mankind (as a second race) has everything to do with the fall of the first race (the angels) and the war in heaven (led by satan) that followed after that.

Sin was introduced by satan, not by Adam & Eve. God had a problem. How to deal with it? As such He created a second race, a race that contrary to the heavenly inhabitants (sons of God, angels, morning stars, see Job 38:4-7) could not physical see Him nor being constantly in his glorious presence. Still this race was meant to overcome sin without seeing due to faith alone.

To stay on topic I am deliberately skipping the issue of the fall of mankind in Eden and the sacrifice God had to make to fix that. I don't believe that God originally ever had the intention to sacrifice his only son Jesus. That became an unfortunate issue when satan managed to seduce Adam & Eve. On the other hand it gave God the opportunity to show us and the heavenly inhabitants his eternal love for the creatures He created.

The second hypothesis I have is about "free will" and is related to the above.

Apparently angels have a free will as well. Satan wanted to become as God and rebelled, the first sin was born. As such God was faced with a terrible dilemma: not wanting robots but free creatures but then sooner or later some of these creatures to rebel against Him.

His solution was to create mankind, give it a free will to decide before or against Him including his own free will, or as Jesus put it:

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In the end I believe that God will take away part of our free will (and from the other heavenly inhabitants as well) in order not to face a third rebellion with new painful consequences for God. The heavenly inhabitants will not object as Christians will not object to this limitation as the total history of the heavens and mankind speaks volumes regarding the dangers of total free will.

Democracy is not the invention of Plato, but God ;)

Ed

Yolande~
Mar 20th 2008, 02:19 PM
Thank you bad dog for interesting answer also all the others.

I posted elsewhere the following and got zero response regarding content.

I have 2 hypothesis's, here is one:

IMO the creation mankind (as a second race) has everything to do with the fall of the first race (the angels) and the war in heaven (led by satan) that followed after that.

Sin was introduced by satan, not by Adam & Eve. God had a problem. How to deal with it? As such He created a second race, a race that contrary to the heavenly inhabitants (sons of God, angels, morning stars, see Job 38:4-7) could not physical see Him nor being constantly in his glorious presence. Still this race was meant to overcome sin without seeing due to faith alone.

To stay on topic I am deliberately skipping the issue of the fall of mankind in Eden and the sacrifice God had to make to fix that. I don't believe that God originally ever had the intention to sacrifice his only son Jesus. That became an unfortunate issue when satan managed to seduce Adam & Eve. On the other hand it gave God the opportunity to show us and the heavenly inhabitants his eternal love for the creatures He created.

The second hypothesis I have is about "free will" and is related to the above.

Apparently angels have a free will as well. Satan wanted to become as God and rebelled, the first sin was born. As such God was faced with a terrible dilemma: not wanting robots but free creatures but then sooner or later some of these creatures to rebel against Him.

His solution was to create mankind, give it a free will to decide before or against Him including his own free will, or as Jesus put it:

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In the end I believe that God will take away part of our free will (and from the other heavenly inhabitants as well) in order not to face a third rebellion with new painful consequences for God. The heavenly inhabitants will not object as Christians will not object to this limitation as the total history of the heavens and mankind speaks volumes regarding the dangers of total free will.

Democracy is not the invention of Plato, but God ;)

Ed

I will give you a response but I am not sure if you would like it :hmm:

Ed, you are talking about God as if He is like us. As if He is sitting with dilemmas He needs to fix. As if He has these problems and now He needs to find sudden solutions, for unforseen circumstances.

My God is not that small. He is all knowing. He knew about every sin and about every step of every creature at any time, and He knew that even before He created one single thing. He knew about every hair that would fall, every insect that would die, exactly when, and exactly how, and He knew that even before the foundations of the earth, even before one single star or one single angel was created.

He is all knowing and He is totally sovereign. Every single thing that he chooses to do, He does so, for good reason, in His infinate Wisdom, as an expression of something of Himself, and to His own pleasure. He lives totally above our dimention. He does not think like a man. He is not at all like a man. He has no problems. He only has plans. And He does absolutely everything, absolutely perfect, absolutely every time.

He has no regrets over anything, is He a man that He should repent for anything? No, He is not like us. When we start to think that He may think like us about things, we insult Him.

He does not fit into any box we can try and put Him in. And when we have made Him so small that we can actually understand Him, then we have not gotten hold of the One True God. For His ways and His thoughts are far above ours. He truly is a magnificant God. And we were created for His glory, for the praise of His glory, for His pleasure, and His liking. He had no need of us. He just made us, because He wanted to. And everything He does is perfect, good, all wise and can never be improved in any way. He is steadfast, a rock, never changing, and He most certainly is worthy of our highest praise and adoration, a life that revolves totally around Him, glorifying Him.

So, let us not rebel against Him in any way (1 Sam 15:23 "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft"), and let us not speak disrespectful of Him. For surely He is patient and longsuffering, but it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Let us give Him the honour, that is His due, for He truly is worthy of our deepest respect and adoration.

grptinHisHand
Mar 20th 2008, 02:33 PM
God created us for fellowship with Him. He wants us to WANT to spend time with Him. Actually, I guess several others have said as much. Just putting it into a short, simple, direct answer.

Praise God He DID create us and wants us to fellowship with Him!! That is the greatest joy we can have - fellowshipping with Him. Secondly fellowshipping with other Christians is a sweet joy also.
:) g

ProDeo
Mar 20th 2008, 10:58 PM
So, let us not rebel against Him in any way (1 Sam 15:23 "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft"), and let us not speak disrespectful of Him. For surely He is patient and longsuffering, but it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Let us give Him the honour, that is His due, for He truly is worthy of our deepest respect and adoration.

It must be my username that tickled your imagination to come with that as closing sentence. :B

Regarding content: I 100% agree with everything you said but don't you think that God wants to share everything with his upcoming bride that He has hidden till now?

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

Since the Bible does not have a clear answer on the topic at hand I think it's valid to do some philosophy about the reason(s) why God created makind while He (as you correctly stated) knew on beforehand what pain it would cost Him (and us). Or do you think God is above all that? That He can't have pain? There are zillions of Bible fragments that speak about that.

In fact I believe that God wants us to think about this important question (and many others) and that the body of Christ fully needs to understand all the In's and Out's of God's acts before the wedding can take place. I believe it's God's eager wish to reveal everything what is hidden till now and share with us, but we (his children) should be eager to know ourselves and ask Him for answers.

Alright, I can accept that not everybody is interested in the subject, I wasn't myself although being a Christian for 33 years. It's just disappointing I receive so few feedback regarding content of the issue I addressed.

Regarding tone-setting: I am new to this forum and posted only a few times. Is it normal for this forum to welcome new members giving them a feeling he/she is someone that is in an urgent need to receive correction?

Ed

ProDeo
Mar 20th 2008, 11:03 PM
God created us for fellowship with Him. He wants us to WANT to spend time with Him. Actually, I guess several others have said as much. Just putting it into a short, simple, direct answer.

Praise God He DID create us and wants us to fellowship with Him!! That is the greatest joy we can have - fellowshipping with Him. Secondly fellowshipping with other Christians is a sweet joy also.
:) g

I entirely agree. It's just that I think there is more than that alone :)

Thanks,

Ed

valleybldr
Mar 20th 2008, 11:19 PM
Many fine answers but I'll add that God has created us to build and extend His Kingdom. He works and we will continue to do the same. We are to reflect Him and He loves to build. todd

Roelof
Mar 21st 2008, 04:22 AM
Many fine answers but I'll add that God has created us to build and extend His Kingdom. He works and we will continue to do the same. We are to reflect Him and He loves to build. todd

God called us for His purpose (Rom 8:28)

Yolande~
Mar 21st 2008, 06:55 AM
It must be my username that tickled your imagination to come with that as closing sentence. :B

:o .......it must have been :)


Regarding content: I 100% agree with everything you said but don't you think that God wants to share everything with his upcoming bride that He has hidden till now?

In fact I believe that God wants us to think about this important question (and many others)... , but we (his children) should be eager to know ourselves and ask Him for answers.


I understand what you are saying. God wants to communicate with us His beloved. And just because we can never understand everything fully with our little heads, doesn't mean we shouldn't ponder on it and ask Him. In fact, the more we learn about His awesome plan and His amazing character the more in awe we stand of Him.

The thing is just...God has given us an answer in His Word about your question - why He created us. IT was for His pleasure. For His glory. Because He wanted to. Now when we start to anticipate what went on in the mind of God why He did things the way He did, what went on in other ages, and with angels, we can easily get sidetracted.

I talk from personal experience Ed. I have a very inquisitive mind. I have become involved with all kind of questions in my life - about creation, about the time before there was time, about the pre-adamite times, about fallen angels, about many many mysteries. The bible doesn't talk much about these things, and often when one is not satisified with what God wants to tell us in His Word, we tend to draw to us other sources who will. That was wat happened to me and took me right into incredible disseption. It is a long story, praise God HE delivered me out of it.

But today I know, stick to the things, that God wants to talk about. You can spend your entire life just being busy with the things God wanted to make very clear in His Word. And then my friend, you will be safe. OR you can brush over the depth of Paul's message to us and other foundational truths in the Word, and spend your focus on mysteries relating to things that may sound very impressive and exciting and in the end miss the essense of what God wanted for our life on earth.



Regarding tone-setting: I am new to this forum and posted only a few times. Is it normal for this forum to welcome new members giving them a feeling he/she is someone that is in an urgent need to receive correction?

Ed

If I did come over as setting a tone, please do not take offense. It is just that I could see something in you and the way you ask things that used to be in me, and it made me concerned. Also, I have learned to tremble in a sense at God in holy respect and fear of Him, which makes me very sensitive to take a stand where I perceive something being said that may be disrespectful to Him just in the least way.

I am also very new here (on the english bible forum). I used to participate only on the "Afrikaans lighuis" (in another language, only south africans). And things are much different here. I haven't learned to get to know the people on here either. So, as another newcomer, I extend a warm welcome to you Ed, and hope we will become good friends on this forum :)

BadDog
Mar 22nd 2008, 01:54 AM
Thank you bad dog for interesting answer also all the others.

I posted elsewhere the following and got zero response regarding content.

I have 2 hypothesis's, here is one:

IMO the creation mankind (as a second race) has everything to do with the fall of the first race (the angels) and the war in heaven (led by satan) that followed after that.

Sin was introduced by satan, not by Adam & Eve. God had a problem. How to deal with it? As such He created a second race, a race that contrary to the heavenly inhabitants (sons of God, angels, morning stars, see Job 38:4-7) could not physical see Him nor being constantly in his glorious presence. Still this race was meant to overcome sin without seeing due to faith alone.

To stay on topic I am deliberately skipping the issue of the fall of mankind in Eden and the sacrifice God had to make to fix that. I don't believe that God originally ever had the intention to sacrifice his only son Jesus. That became an unfortunate issue when satan managed to seduce Adam & Eve. On the other hand it gave God the opportunity to show us and the heavenly inhabitants his eternal love for the creatures He created.

The second hypothesis I have is about "free will" and is related to the above.

Apparently angels have a free will as well. Satan wanted to become as God and rebelled, the first sin was born. As such God was faced with a terrible dilemma: not wanting robots but free creatures but then sooner or later some of these creatures to rebel against Him.

His solution was to create mankind, give it a free will to decide before or against Him including his own free will, or as Jesus put it:

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In the end I believe that God will take away part of our free will (and from the other heavenly inhabitants as well) in order not to face a third rebellion with new painful consequences for God. The heavenly inhabitants will not object as Christians will not object to this limitation as the total history of the heavens and mankind speaks volumes regarding the dangers of total free will.

Democracy is not the invention of Plato, but God ;)

Ed
Rebel777,

What Yolande said was good. We need to be careful not to approach such questions assuming that God thinks and acts like us humans. My thoughts are based on scripture - but there is a decent amount of speculation there as well. I wasn't thinking that God started with angels, and we were His 2nd shot at it. But I do see one aspect of what God is doing directed toward spiritual beings - such as angels. Scripture is full of references to angels and their serving of God, and mankind.

But I would be careful about making too much of it.

Take care,

BD

ProDeo
Mar 23rd 2008, 12:08 PM
I talk from personal experience Ed. I have a very inquisitive mind. I have become involved with all kind of questions in my life - about creation, about the time before there was time, about the pre-adamite times, about fallen angels, about many many mysteries. The bible doesn't talk much about these things, and often when one is not satisified with what God wants to tell us in His Word, we tend to draw to us other sources who will. That was wat happened to me and took me right into incredible disseption. It is a long story, praise God HE delivered me out of it.

If I did come over as setting a tone, please do not take offense. It is just that I could see something in you and the way you ask things that used to be in me, and it made me concerned.

Okay, very well, I respect and appreciate that Yolande. BTW, it's true that I am not satisfied with the "for His pleasure" answer (although I believe it's very true!), you have seen that very well. Let me refrain for the moment for the reason(s) for that as I am not entirely out myself.


Also, I have learned to tremble in a sense at God in holy respect and fear of Him, which makes me very sensitive to take a stand where I perceive something being said that may be disrespectful to Him just in the least way.

I believe in Holy Fear, not fear. Holy Fear driven by amazement about the greatness and goodness of God.


I am also very new here (on the english bible forum). I used to participate only on the "Afrikaans lighuis" (in another language, only south africans). And things are much different here. I haven't learned to get to know the people on here either. So, as another newcomer, I extend a warm welcome to you Ed, and hope we will become good friends on this forum :)

I have the feeling we will. ;)

Ed

Mark F
Mar 23rd 2008, 01:17 PM
Yolande~,

Welcome, I think many who have come to the knowledge of salvation in Jesus Christ naturally are drawn to know more of Him. Some are content to only know what is needed for salvation and continue on thier merry way with only a shallow faith.

What can we know of God?.....only that which He has chosen to reveal concerning Himself.

All things are for His purposes, to declare His glory, power, and knowledge.

As for why would God create? To put Jesus Christ on display, to demonstrate His perfections (His: holiness, grace, mercy, soveriegnty, salvation, righteousness, judgment + many many more!!) And to share Himself with a redeemed people. What is the most awsome and hard thing to understand, is that we will be made righteous when of ourselves we are nothing.

Yolande~
Mar 23rd 2008, 07:24 PM
Yolande~,

What can we know of God?.....only that which He has chosen to reveal concerning Himself.

All things are for His purposes, to declare His glory, power, and knowledge.

As for why would God create? To put Jesus Christ on display, to demonstrate His perfections (His: holiness, grace, mercy, soveriegnty, salvation, righteousness, judgment + many many more!!) And to share Himself with a redeemed people. What is the most awsome and hard thing to understand, is that we will be made righteous when of ourselves we are nothing.

Amen Mark, I agree with you on this.


I think many who have come to the knowledge of salvation in Jesus Christ naturally are drawn to know more of Him. Some are content to only know what is needed for salvation and continue on thier merry way with only a shallow faith

For the seeking soul I can recommend "Advanced Bible Course: Studies in the deeper life" by E.W. Kenyon, it can literally keep you busy for years. Even Kenyon's other books. Then also "Romans: Verse by verse" as well as "Hebrews verse by verse" by William R. Newell. These books are packed with revelation upon relelation about the essense of our faith.

Servant89
Mar 23rd 2008, 07:39 PM
Isa 43:7 Even everyone that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, yeah, I have made him.
Isa 43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.

Amen.

Yolande~
Mar 23rd 2008, 07:40 PM
I believe in Holy Fear, not fear. Holy Fear driven by amazement about the greatness and goodness of God.


Yes, Holy Fear driven by amazement about the greatness and goodness of God.
But Fear also includes respect. Deep respect. Reference. Knowing that He is Almighty God, Holy, Jealous, the Potter...and we are but the clay.
Not being afraid of - as in hiding away from Him - there I agree with you.

The Word says in Phil 2 : 12 "..continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling"
2 Cor 7:15"...with fear and trembling you received him"
Heb10:31 "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

It is not that I think that disrespect can cost you your salvation, but it certainly can cost one dearly. In the old Testament God did fearful things amoung his people who disrespected Him and His representatives, at one place he made the ground to open and to swallow up those who spoke against Moses. Even Moses couldn't enter the promised land because he disprespected God when he hit the rock. Miriam, Moses's sister, became a leper when she spoke disrespectful to Moses. There are many examples of stories in the old testament - where you can see the terrible consequences when people were not in absolute reference for God and His appointed people, and not watching their speach in this regard. Honouring Him and those He appoint, is something incredibly important to God. And that was really what I was referring to :)

Literalist-Luke
Mar 24th 2008, 04:15 AM
OK, this might be a little "out there" for some of you, but this is my take on it:

The angels were created first. At some point in the past, some of them (probably about 1/3 of them, based on Revelation 12) rebelled, under the leadership of "Lucifer", who we also call Satan (which is Hebrew for "adversary".)

God pronounced judgment on the rebellious angels and my guess is that they argued that He was being unfair in rendering an eternal judgment. So He decided to show them just how deserving they are of eternal punishment, so He created us for His "demonstration".

You see, Satan and the demons (fallen angels), had/have direct access to the Throne of God in Heaven. God decided to demonstrate for them that He could create a species that would NOT have direct access to the Throne, such as they had, and that in spite of that limitation, large numbers of the new species would still choose for Him IN SPITE of the lack of visible proof and IN SPITE of there being problems in the world.

So He made us "a little lower than angels" in the creational hierarchy.

He then turned Satan loose on us (Adam and Eve) and allowed Satan to incite them to rebellion, which of course leades to the story we all know in the Bible.

God demonstrated His mercy by dying for us "while we were yet sinners", disproving Satan's (probable) claim of God being "unmerciful". In addition, those of us who choose for God and wind up being faithful are further proof to the demons that they are without excuse. They had direct access to the Throne, for cryin' out loud, and yet they rebelled! We, the body of believers, however, have only the creation around us along with the Bible as His revelation of Himself to us, humankind. The fact that many of us will still respond with faith in God in spite of these limitations is only further proof that the demons did not "choose wisely". By virtue of our faithfulness in light of their rebellion even though they have seen the face of God and we have not, that is why we will "judge angels", as Paul said.

ProDeo
Mar 24th 2008, 12:17 PM
OK, this might be a little "out there" for some of you, but this is my take on it:

The angels were created first. At some point in the past, some of them (probably about 1/3 of them, based on Revelation 12) rebelled, under the leadership of "Lucifer", who we also call Satan (which is Hebrew for "adversary".)

God pronounced judgment on the rebellious angels and my guess is that they argued that He was being unfair in rendering an eternal judgment. So He decided to show them just how deserving they are of eternal punishment, so He created us for His "demonstration".

You see, Satan and the demons (fallen angels), had/have direct access to the Throne of God in Heaven. God decided to demonstrate for them that He could create a species that would NOT have direct access to the Throne, such as they had, and that in spite of that limitation, large numbers of the new species would still choose for Him IN SPITE of the lack of visible proof and IN SPITE of there being problems in the world.

So He made us "a little lower than angels" in the creational hierarchy.

He then turned Satan loose on us (Adam and Eve) and allowed Satan to incite them to rebellion, which of course leades to the story we all know in the Bible.

God demonstrated His mercy by dying for us "while we were yet sinners", disproving Satan's (probable) claim of God being "unmerciful". In addition, those of us who choose for God and wind up being faithful are further proof to the demons that they are without excuse. They had direct access to the Throne, for cryin' out loud, and yet they rebelled! We, the body of believers, however, have only the creation around us along with the Bible as His revelation of Himself to us, humankind. The fact that many of us will still respond with faith in God in spite of these limitations is only further proof that the demons did not "choose wisely". By virtue of our faithfulness in light of their rebellion even though they have seen the face of God and we have not, that is why we will "judge angels", as Paul said.
You said it a lot better than me, and more respectful as well. Thank you. Still it remains a theory.

What amazes me (and that isn't a theory) is the stubbornness of the fallen angels and why not all of them repented after some time. How can you not repent being and having been so close to God???? This tickled my imagination if it is possible for us (bought by the blood of Christ) when we are with Him in eternal life that some of us (in time) also to rebel against God repeating the story. I trust God having a solution for that.

Ed

ProDeo
Mar 24th 2008, 01:08 PM
Yes, Holy Fear driven by amazement about the greatness and goodness of God.
But Fear also includes respect. Deep respect. Reference. Knowing that He is Almighty God, Holy, Jealous, the Potter...and we are but the clay.
Not being afraid of - as in hiding away from Him - there I agree with you.

The Word says in Phil 2 : 12 "..continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling"
2 Cor 7:15"...with fear and trembling you received him"
Heb10:31 "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

We don't differ on this, Holy Fear is all about deep respect driven by overwhelming amazement which eventually even can lead to John's asthonising statement and perception:

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

It's my wish and strive to reach that state of mind of John, long way to go yet.....


It is not that I think that disrespect can cost you your salvation, but it certainly can cost one dearly. In the old Testament God did fearful things amoung his people who disrespected Him and His representatives, at one place he made the ground to open and to swallow up those who spoke against Moses. Even Moses couldn't enter the promised land because he disprespected God when he hit the rock. Miriam, Moses's sister, became a leper when she spoke disrespectful to Moses. There are many examples of stories in the old testament - where you can see the terrible consequences when people were not in absolute reference for God and His appointed people, and not watching their speach in this regard. Honouring Him and those He appoint, is something incredibly important to God. And that was really what I was referring to :)

All true and not limited to the OT, see the NT example of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5.

If my initial wordings sounded disrespectful to you so be it, I can tell you that I have no intention at all to speak disrespectful about God, how could I after having received his grace? That's impossible.

Regards,

Ed

Yolande~
Mar 24th 2008, 03:30 PM
You have a humble and beautiful attitude Ed!

It is a valid comment that you make...highlighting that in perfect love there is no fear.
No fear of people
No fear of failure
No fear of rejection
No fear of abandonment
No fear of humiliation
No fear of death in any way.

May we all grow in that perfect love!

PS: How could those angels have fallen, if they had perfect love? IT still amazes me.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 24th 2008, 05:03 PM
What amazes me (and that isn't a theory) is the stubbornness of the fallen angels and why not all of them repented after some time. How can you not repent being and having been so close to God???? This tickled my imagination if it is possible for us (bought by the blood of Christ) when we are with Him in eternal life that some of us (in time) also to rebel against God repeating the story. I trust God having a solution for that.

EdThey can't repent - their eternal doom is sealed, irrevocably. They are not given a second chance like we were. They were not born into sin like us. They were created unmarred and with direct access to God Himself and yet still chose to rebel.

Yolande~
Mar 24th 2008, 05:35 PM
They can't repent - their eternal doom is sealed, irrevocably. They are not given a second chance like we were. They were not born into sin like us. They were created unmarred and with direct access to God Himself and yet still chose to rebel.

Yet, God knew about every angel that would fall, just as He knew about every sparrow that would fall to the ground...and He knew that even before He made one single thing. That leaves us speachless. What an awesome God! All knowing. All wise. Yet perfectly good. In all His ways.
But from a mere human standpoint somebody may ask "but how can you say God is good, if He created beings which He knew would fall?" He is good because He says He is, because He can not lie. And just because somehow we can not bring it all together, doesn't take nothing away from the absolute truth, that God is perfect and good, He is the Potter and we are His clay.

Mograce2U
Mar 24th 2008, 06:42 PM
You said it a lot better than me, and more respectful as well. Thank you. Still it remains a theory.

What amazes me (and that isn't a theory) is the stubbornness of the fallen angels and why not all of them repented after some time. How can you not repent being and having been so close to God???? This tickled my imagination if it is possible for us (bought by the blood of Christ) when we are with Him in eternal life that some of us (in time) also to rebel against God repeating the story. I trust God having a solution for that.

EdFor repentance to be acceptable there must be a just way to provide forgiveness. Angels are eternal spiritual creatures who cannot die. What could provide atonement for their sins so that they could be forgiven? The death and resurrection of an angel would be contrary to the purposes for which God created them. However life is imparted to them, it is not by blood. And if eternal spiritual creatures could die then our hope for eternal life suffers damage.

BadDog
Mar 27th 2008, 02:12 AM
Literalist-Luke,

Nice post and thoughts.

BD