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Alaska
Mar 14th 2008, 11:06 PM
Jesus Died on Thursday, Not Friday

We are informed by the Holy Scriptures that Jesus rose from the dead very early on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Since Jesus made it very plain that he was to be in the heart of the earth (dead and buried) for three days and three nights, (Matt. 12:40) let us now count the days and nights from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning to see if it works. First the nights: Friday night and Saturday night. He rose early Sunday so there is no way to get any more than these two nights. Now let us count the days: From late Friday afternoon there is only Saturday's full daylight period to count. By this, he would have risen on the second day. So here, we have only two nights and he is risen on the second day. This is not what Jesus emphatically prophesied. Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights. Jesus confidently assured his apostles that he was to be in the heart of the earth for the same length of time. By accepting that Jesus died on Friday, we must contradict the words of Him who had power to lay down his life and had power to take it again (John 10:17,18).
Obviously, the idea that He died on Friday doesn’t work. There is a day missing. What happened?
The reason why it is believed that He died on Friday is because the scriptures plainly tell us that a sabbath day immediately followed his death. It is precisely at this point where the error occurred. It is assumed that the sabbath following his death was a normal sabbath day (Saturday). However, the Scriptures clearly reveal that the day following Passover was always a special sabbath (rest day) that would fall on different days of the week from year to year because Passover was set on a fixed date.
On the fourteenth day of the first month (Abib), Jesus ate the Passover (the last supper) with his apostles in accordance with the rules given by Moses. All the Jews observed these laws. This meal is eaten after the sun goes down which is the very beginning of the Jewish twenty-four hour "day". (We reckon our days from midnight to midnight but the Jews reckon from sundown to sundown.) So, before the sun went down again, Jesus had been apprehended, tried, crucified and laid in the tomb. (The Lamb of God died on Passover day, see 1 Cor. 5:7.) But remember, they were urgent to get his body in the tomb before the sun went down because that coming day (which began at sundown) was a sabbath day. That fifteenth day of the month was a sabbath day every single year no matter what day of the week it happened to fall on. On this particular year, Passover fell on a Thursday; Friday the 15th was the special sabbath and Saturday was the normal sabbath. So using this model, let us again count the nights first: Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night. Now let us count the days: Friday's daylight and Saturday's daylight. He was seen alive on Sunday, the third daylight after he was killed.
By this, we see that by the time the sun rose Sunday morning, the third twenty-four hour Jewish day since Jesus died (sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday) was already about half way through. If someone includes Thursday (sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday) when counting the 24 hour days (since that is the day in which he was buried) then it is reasonable to say that he arose "after three days". On the other hand, if someone begins counting from after sundown (which is more commonly done since he was laid in the tomb just prior to sundown on Thursday) then it is also correct to say that he rose "in three days" or "on the third day”.
Whether we focus on this 24 hour aspect or on the distinction between daytime and night time periods, the fact remains that all three night time periods are accounted for if we accept that the sabbath following his death was not a normal Saturday sabbath. The three nights, which Jesus specified, (Matt. 12:40) cannot be accounted for by the Good Friday model. Also, the Good Friday doctrine cannot accommodate the phrase “after three days”, which is found in Mark 8:31 and Matt. 27:63,64
Why, you say, is this important? By this very practical and proven understanding of how the Jews kept the Passover, we need no longer imply, by conceding to the Good Friday doctrine, that Jesus was not in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Ignorantly sowing doubt in the hearts of others about the dependability of God's Word is not something that someone who has the love of God wants to do. There is no way anyone is going to get three days and three nights from Friday evening to Sunday morning. Uncertainty and doubt is the natural effect in the hearts of those who have read Jesus' prophesy that he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights but who are then misinformed that he died on Friday. Those who have a zeal to defend the preserved written Word and to oppose error, will be blessed by the knowledge that the sabbath day immediately following the Passover was not a normal sabbath but a special sabbath that occurred every year on a set date and which could fall on any day of the week. This accounts for that missing day.
All of the New Testament references fit comfortably into this model. They are listed below. After these, you will find the Old Testament references that verify that the fifteenth of that month was in fact a "high day".
Matt 12:40 Matt 16:21 Matt 17:23 Matt 20:19 Matt 27:63,64 Mark 8:31 Mark 9:31 Mark 10:34 Mark 14:58 Mark 15:29 Luke 18:33 Luke 24:7 Luke 24:46 John 2:19 John 2:20,21 Acts 10:40 1 Cor. 15:4
Lev 23:2-8 Numbers 28:16-19,25 Exodus 12:15-16
Exodus 12:17 Numbers 33:3 Exodus 12:42
This is irrefutable evidence that the fifteenth day of the first month was set aside as a holy convocation (sabbath). It was a day to be remembered because that was the day the children of Israel came out of Egypt.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. See also Luke 24:52-54 Mark 15:42,43 Matt. 27:62
So the answer was in the Scriptures all along: "that sabbath day was an high day".








L.T.J.


You may freely copy and distribute this article as long as the text is not altered in any way and that the author's initials, L.T.J. remain as part of the text.

RJ Mac
Mar 15th 2008, 12:33 AM
I beg to differ, Jesus died on the Friday, but we've been through this only two weeks ago, in fact its still on page one of this forum. How I see it is, literalists like yourself just have to have 72 hours where those of us who see things symbolically can see that Friday at 3 pm till Sunday morning early is three days. But hey, one day we will really know, so until then, keep posting!

RJ Mac

watchinginawe
Mar 15th 2008, 01:07 AM
Actually RJ, that would be the "three days and three nights" arguement. You couldn't get 72 hours with Jesus' death at 3pm and having been risen by early the morning of the first day of the week. He would have to have risen then at 3pm on Sunday which we know for sure isn't true.

The 72 hour arguement actually has Jesus' death on Wednesday. Then the 72 hours has Jesus rising on the sabbath and thus ready to greet the women Sunday morning. :dunno:

Anyway, I agree with you regarding Friday being the day of the Crucifixion.

God Bless!

9Marksfan
Mar 15th 2008, 02:15 AM
Where's the third night then? You only have Friday and Saturday night!

diffangle
Mar 15th 2008, 02:38 AM
Many believe He was crucified on a Wednesday, which would give us three days and nights. Also, a day begins at sundown on the Hebrew calendar, so when the Scriptures say that the women arrived at the tomb at the dawning of the first day, they likely arrived at the tomb at what is known as our sundown on Saturday(at the end of the Sabbath).

Mat 28:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=28&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

watchinginawe
Mar 15th 2008, 02:51 AM
Many believe He was crucified on a Wednesday, which would give us three days and nights. Also, a day begins at sundown on the Hebrew calendar, so when the Scriptures say that the women arrived at the tomb at the dawning of the first day, they likely arrived at the tomb at what is known as our sundown on Saturday(at the end of the Sabbath).

Mat 28:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=28&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.The issue is clarified for us though. It clearly was Sunday morning when the women came to the tomb and not soon after 6pm.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.


Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.


John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.


God Bless!

ohlurdy
Mar 15th 2008, 03:01 AM
I'm not looking to get into a deep debate but it is my understanding (just my opinion) that Jesus died on a Wednesday.

The following Thursday was a sabbath feast day, and the people requested that all three of the bodies
be brought down from the cross before the sabbath feast day which would have started at sun down on a
Wednesday. Therein lies the three days and three nights of Jonah with Jesus being dead:

Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night
Thursday, Friday, and Saturday

I guess this would also show that when the ladies went to the tomb on the first day of the week-a Sunday,
Jesus had already risen-not on Sunday, but on the Saturday Sabbath. The Bible tells us that the ladies
went to the tomb on the first day of the week. It doesn't state that Jesus rose on the first day of the week.
Based on the three days and three nights of Jonah, he could not have risen on the first day of the week or else
he would have been dead for four nights instead of three.

diffangle
Mar 15th 2008, 03:02 AM
The issue is clarified for us though. It clearly was Sunday morning when the women came to the tomb and not soon after 6pm.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.


Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.


John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.


God Bless!
Just b/c the women didn't come to the tomb until morning doesn't mean that He didn't rise Sat. evening. The Scriptures don't say whether or not it was morning when He rose.:dunno:

Mar 16:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mar&chapter=16&verse=9&version=kjv#9)¶Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

watchinginawe
Mar 15th 2008, 03:03 AM
Where's the third night then? You only have Friday and Saturday night!Well, that is what the two sabbath arguement is about. Three nights beginning with Thursday night. For me, I am OK with the "on the third day" reckoning of Jesus' resurrection.

Though it might seem problematic with Jesus' "three nights" statement, for me, the account of the women resting the sabbath before returning to the tomb on Sunday is pretty straight forward. We can suppose they rested two days, and I don't really have a problem with making it work out with two sabbaths, but I don't have an inclincation to have to make it work out in such a way that seems to contradict the accounts given. In this case, for me, the scriptures are in complete agreement with tradition.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 15th 2008, 03:13 AM
Just b/c the women didn't come to the tomb until morning doesn't mean that He didn't rise Sat. evening. The Scriptures don't say whether or not it was morning when He rose.:dunno:

Mar 16:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mar&chapter=16&verse=9&version=kjv#9)¶Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. I believe the scriptures do indicate the same for Jesus. But, I wasn't responding to that, I was responding to:
they likely arrived at the tomb at what is known as our sundown on Saturday(at the end of the Sabbath).So, we start with the discovery of the empty tomb and that was clearly in the morning.

As for when Jesus rose, for me, I believe it is indicated in the following. Also, this is in agreement with the rest of the acount. Also, Jesus said he would rise on the third day. In any case:

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.


Now, we know that the tomb was guarded until the keepers became as dead men. Of course Jesus did not need the stone rolled away by an angel, but it makes sense that His resurrection was met with such an event as described.

If we suppose that Jesus could have risen before the morning of the first day, we could just as easily suppose that Jesus rose from the dead the evening He was buried.

God Bless!

markdrums
Mar 15th 2008, 03:14 AM
The subject of "Three Days" can be rationally explained.
;)

Just hang with me....

It was common cultural practice in the days of the early Jews & Jesus' lifetime, to count ANY PART of a day as "one day".
Meaning, If I came to your house for a visit on Friday evening, & stayed for 3 days, it would be as follows:
Friday- I arrive at your house. = day 1. (even if it was in the evening... it would still be considered "a day".
Saturday- Still visiting, still hanging out at your crib. = day 2.
Sunday - I get up, gather my "belongings" & depart on Sunday morning. = day 3.

So, according to old, Jewish customs, I was at your house for "3 days".

See what I mean??

:)

watchinginawe
Mar 15th 2008, 03:21 AM
I'm not looking to get into a deep debate but it is my understanding (just my opinion) that Jesus died on a Wednesday.

The following Thursday was a sabbath feast day, and the people requested that all three of the bodies
be brought down from the cross before the sabbath feast day which would have started at sun down on a
Wednesday. Therein lies the three days and three nights of Jonah with Jesus being dead:

Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night
Thursday, Friday, and Saturday

I guess this would also show that when the ladies went to the tomb on the first day of the week-a Sunday,
Jesus had already risen-not on Sunday, but on the Saturday Sabbath. The Bible tells us that the ladies
went to the tomb on the first day of the week. It doesn't state that Jesus rose on the first day of the week.
Based on the three days and three nights of Jonah, he could not have risen on the first day of the week or else
he would have been dead for four nights instead of three.ohlurdy, the problem with this account is that the women could have annointed Jesus on Friday since that would not have been a sabbath. Unless of course you are suggesting that Thursday, Friday, and Saturday were all sabbaths that week.

Instead, what is given in scripture is that the women followed Joseph to the tomb, returned and prepared spices, rested the sabbath, and returned the first day of the week. This account becomes contorted in my opinion when you start the account on Wednesday. It just doesn't fit with the scriptures. The women would have prepared spices, rested on Thursday, rested on Friday, rested on Saturday, and then came to the tomb:

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:

51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them; ) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.

52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 15th 2008, 03:24 AM
The subject of "Three Days" can be rationally explained.
;)

Just hang with me....

It was common cultural practice in the days of the early Jews & Jesus' lifetime, to count ANY PART of a day as "one day".
Meaning, If I came to your house for a visit on Friday evening, & stayed for 3 days, it would be as follows:
Friday- I arrive at your house. = day 1. (even if it was in the evening... it would still be considered "a day".
Saturday- Still visiting, still hanging out at your crib. = day 2.
Sunday - I get up, gather my "belongings" & depart on Sunday morning. = day 3.

So, according to old, Jewish customs, I was at your house for "3 days".

See what I mean??

:)

And that also leaves you with being there only two nights which is short of the required time.

Merton
Mar 15th 2008, 08:45 AM
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Luk 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

Luk 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
Luk 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done.

watchinginawe
Mar 15th 2008, 03:07 PM
Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Luk 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
...
Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done.
Nice scripture references Merton.

The accounting of the above would seem to make a Wednesday crucifixion very improbable. Even if one didn't count Wednesday as the first day, Sunday would still be the fourth day. But by normal reckoning, it would have been the fifth day. The span of days between Wednesday and Sunday is the biggest problem with the 72 hour accounting in my opnion. There is simply too many days between Wednesday and Sunday morning and one then must just discount the scripture accounts and decide mathmatically when and/or what day Jesus must have died and risen, resulting in both events being seemingly at odds with scripture and tradition.

God Bless!

RJ Mac
Mar 15th 2008, 03:30 PM
For the literalists who are demanding a third night, I would submit that at 3 PM when Jesus died He went straight to Hades. At 3 PM the Sun did not shine, it was so dark the stars had come out and it was like that since high noon. I would submit this was Friday night, then Friday, Sat. pm then Sat. Sun. pm then Sun am. Three days and three nights.

RJ Mac

honcho
Mar 15th 2008, 04:58 PM
diffangle
Just b/c the women didn't come to the tomb until morning doesn't mean that He didn't rise Sat. evening. The Scriptures don't say whether or not it was morning when He rose.

Mt. 28: NIV
1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.

When both of them were on their way to the tomb early on Sunday morning there was the earth quake at the same time the stone was rolled back. Jesus was resurrected at the time of the earthquake and the rolling back of the stone at day break of the first day of the week.

th1bill
Mar 15th 2008, 09:25 PM
.. I usually avoid this contest of the intellectual elite but occasionally I feel led to comment, as I do at this time. To engage in this debate is an exercise in vanity, a sin. Christianity is a religion based on faith. In John 8:24 Jesus is quoted as saying "except ye believe." In view of the fact that the entire Bible was Canonized with one context in mind it is not seen by this believer to be a stretch to believe that these words, straight from the mouth of God, when coupled with the other scriptures assuring us that we must come to the LORD by faith that we are to be a people of faith, faith that Almighty God has preserved His Written Word to be just as true as He is.
.. Feel free to continue to demonstrate your lack of faith, I'm gone.

watchinginawe
Mar 15th 2008, 09:48 PM
.. I usually avoid this contest of the intellectual elite but occasionally I feel led to comment, as I do at this time. To engage in this debate is an exercise in vanity, a sin.
...
Feel free to continue to demonstrate your lack of faith, I'm gone.Well, those sure are interesting comments. Thanks for offering.

God Bless!

Nihil Obstat
Mar 15th 2008, 10:12 PM
Jesus *had* to have been crucified on Friday. We know that He died on Passover (John 18:39), and we know that He rose again on Sunday, the first day of the week (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2, 9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1). We also know that just as Jesus is our Passover (1 Cor. 5:7), He is also the Firstfruits of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:20, 23). Passover was on the 14th of Nisan (Lev. 23:5), and Firstfruits on the 16th (Lev. 23:11). If, then, He was resurrected on Sunday the 16th, then counting back ... Saturday the 15th ... Friday the 14th ... He *must* have died on Friday. These feast days is what Paul was referring to in 1 Cor. 15:3-4... the one time that He said "three days and three nights" (Matt. 12:40), then, must have been a figure of speech. End of discussion. - Lk.11

valleybldr
Mar 16th 2008, 09:04 PM
.. I usually avoid this contest of the intellectual elite but occasionally I feel led to comment, as I do at this time. To engage in this debate is an exercise in vanity, a sin. Christianity is a religion based on faith. In John 8:24 Jesus is quoted as saying "except ye believe." In view of the fact that the entire Bible was Canonized with one context in mind it is not seen by this believer to be a stretch to believe that these words, straight from the mouth of God, when coupled with the other scriptures assuring us that we must come to the LORD by faith that we are to be a people of faith, faith that Almighty God has preserved His Written Word to be just as true as He is.
.. Feel free to continue to demonstrate your lack of faith, I'm gone.

OK, I'm lost as to how one side or the other is demonstrating a "lack of faith" in trying to harmonize the texts. The threat of leaving is hard to understand as well. todd

valleybldr
Mar 16th 2008, 09:06 PM
Jesus *had* to have been crucified on Friday. We know that He died on Passover (John 18:39), and we know that He rose again on Sunday, the first day of the week (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2, 9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1). Jesus first appeared to others on Sunday morning after day break. It no where says he rose then. todd

Alaska
Mar 16th 2008, 11:44 PM
The Wednesday death scenario has 4 nights pass from when he is buried and when he is seen. The Friday death scenarios has 2 nights pass.

It's OK for someone to call Jesus a literalist for saying that 3 nights would somehow come into the equation of his prophecy being fulfilled, but it is not OK to demean his ability to count and in effect claim that that specification is foolish to hold to as necessary to be reasonably brought to bear.

There is not even a slight partial 3rd night to bring to bear in the Friday death theory. If an explanation can be presented that incorporates a fulfilment of some kind that He did indeed know how to count and that he did not prophesy falsely, that consideration should be jumped on with joy as an opportunity to defend he who not only knows how to count but also knew how to leave the evidence from His word that proves that his words actually do mean what they say.

Please let's stop this ridiculous slander that 3 days and 3 nights cannot mean 3 days and 3 nights.
If he had only said 3 days, then the Friday theory could be excusable, but in Matt. 12 he very clearly specifies the count of three with regard to both daylight and nightime periods. A small portion, at least, should be visible for the third day and night for an explanation to have any credibility. Hence there is no credibility in the 2 night maximum, and 2 day maximum, failure of the Friday death theory.

Naphal
Mar 16th 2008, 11:44 PM
For the literalists who are demanding a third night, I would submit that at 3 PM when Jesus died He went straight to Hades. At 3 PM the Sun did not shine, it was so dark the stars had come out and it was like that since high noon. I would submit this was Friday night, then Friday, Sat. pm then Sat. Sun. pm then Sun am. Three days and three nights.

RJ Mac


3pm on Thursday isn't Friday night, it's not even Thursday night even if it was dark for a little while.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 17th 2008, 12:55 AM
Jesus first appeared to others on Sunday morning after day break. It no where says he rose then. todd

Mark 16:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9;&version=50;); Luke 24:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2024:21;&version=50;); John 20:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020:19;&version=50;); all these passages in their larger context tell us clearly that early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Jesus had risen, and on that day showed Himself first to Mary Magdalene before He even had ascended to the Father, then later that day, after ascending, showed Himself to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, and then later that evening to the ten apostles locked in the room (Judas being dead, and Thomas being absent). There's no debate - He rose again on Sunday. The Scripture is plain.

These days not only fulfilled the Jewish feast days of Passover (His death), Unleavened Bread (His Sabbath rest in the tomb), and Firstfruits (His resurrection), but are also in alignment with the seven creation days. On the sixth day of the week (Friday; Passover), Pilot introduced Jesus to the crowd, exclaiming, "Behold the Man!" (John 19:5) - the sixth day being the creation of man (Gen. 1:26-31; 2:7-25). Then on the seventh day of the week (Saturday; Unleavened Bread), Jesus laid in the tomb all day, doing "no customary work" (Lev. 23:7), but "rested from all His work" (Gen. 2:3). And on the first day of the week, the day of the new creation, Jesus rose again, and He even rose early in the morning!

Seriously, there's no need to debate. The *one* time where Jesus said "three days and three nights" (Matt. 12:40) was when He had made the account of Jonah in the belly of the big fish (Jonah 1:17) to be a prophetic picture of His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection. We know this because He calls Himself "a greater than Jonah", and says that Nineveh will condemn that generation - Jonah didn't preach to Nineveh until *after* the fish vomited him out. The sign of Jonah was that the pagan Gentiles would repent and be spared judgment, while the Jews largely would not. As I said before, it's not a false prophesy - it's so prophetically accurate that many miss it - and it's not that He couldn't count, for as I pointed out, it aligns itself perfectly with the creation days *and* the feast days. No - it must have been a figure of speech; a way of speaking that the people listening would understand what exactly He was telling them if they would just chew over His words.

Sweet? Sweet. - Lk.11

watchinginawe
Mar 17th 2008, 01:00 AM
Please let's stop this ridiculous slander that 3 days and 3 nights cannot mean 3 days and 3 nights.Alaska, quoting the Bible and figuring the account as given in the scriptures is not ridiculous and it isn't slander. If the matters were completely settled one way or another then there wouldn't be any reason for you to have started the thread in the first place. Your original post basically states "Good Friday is a hoax". Now, if you think that settles the matter and any further discussion is "ridiculous slander", then perhaps you should have thought before offering it.

So please, don't start a thread and then tell everyone to "stop" if they see the scriptures different than you.

God Bless!

th1bill
Mar 17th 2008, 01:04 AM
OK, I'm lost as to how one side or the other is demonstrating a "lack of faith" in trying to harmonize the texts. The threat of leaving is hard to understand as well. todd
.. Nowhere in the scriptures are we instructed to sit around picking the scriptures to pieces, the can never be any fruit from that but thorns. Picking the scripture apart is never a demonstration of faith but is always proof of the lack there-of.
.. To be knowledgeable on the matter, as it is written, one must always begin with an intensive study of the customs of the time of the record and there must be a course taken on writting styles of the day and that must include colloquial usage and in the end of all that study there will be a collective gain of zero increase in faith.
.. Christianity requires faith in the one Almighty God that is capable of anything and to sit around debating over what He meant to say is not productive. Lost men and women read these words and if the Christian can't just believe, why should they?

valleybldr
Mar 17th 2008, 01:06 AM
Mark 16:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9;&version=50;); Luke 24:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2024:21;&version=50;); John 20:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020:19;&version=50;); all these passages in their larger context tell us clearly that early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Depends on what you think is "early." I'll go with the Sat/Sun sunset. Can't get earlier then that. todd

valleybldr
Mar 17th 2008, 01:09 AM
.. Nowhere in the scriptures are we instructed to sit around picking the scriptures to pieces, the can never be any fruit from that but thorns. Picking the scripture apart is never a demonstration of faith but is always proof of the lack there-of.
.. To be knowledgeable on the matter, as it is written, one must always begin with an intensive study of the customs of the time of the record and there must be a course taken on writting styles of the day and that must include colloquial usage and in the end of all that study there will be a collective gain of zero increase in faith.
.. Christianity requires faith in the one Almighty God that is capable of anything and to sit around debating over what He meant to say is not productive. Lost men and women read these words and if the Christian can't just believe, why should they?
Discussing such subjects isn't for everyone. In and of itself I hardly can see why trying to understand something like this would be a problem. If it is then someone should refrain from doing so. todd

watchinginawe
Mar 17th 2008, 01:15 AM
.. Nowhere in the scriptures are we instructed to sit around picking the scriptures to pieces, the can never be any fruit from that but thorns. Picking the scripture apart is never a demonstration of faith but is always proof of the lack there-of.
.. To be knowledgeable on the matter, as it is written, one must always begin with an intensive study of the customs of the time of the record and there must be a course taken on writting styles of the day and that must include colloquial usage and in the end of all that study there will be a collective gain of zero increase in faith.
.. Christianity requires faith in the one Almighty God that is capable of anything and to sit around debating over what He meant to say is not productive. Lost men and women read these words and if the Christian can't just believe, why should they?
Bill, do you have anything to add to the topic at hand? This is twice now that you have made the above point, this time coming after saying you were done the last time.

The subject is an interesting one and a timely one for the coming week. If it isn't discussed, then the idea of the "high sabbath day" can't be looked at or researched. Perhaps others would just trust the traditions. There simply isn't anything wrong with looking at the events leading to our Lord and Saviour's death, burial, and resurrection. The discussions are fruitful since they cause one to compare and study the different accounts in the gospels.

So we get the idea. You don't think it is fruitful. Others disagree. That is what makes this forum go round.

God Bless!

Nihil Obstat
Mar 17th 2008, 04:18 AM
Depends on what you think is "early." I'll go with the Sat/Sun sunset. Can't get earlier then that. todd

Then you deny His fulfillment of the Feast of Firstfruits, and being a firstfruits of the new creation. I have to disagree with you, and exhort others to agree with me. Especially since the word "early (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4404&Version=kjv)" in Mark 16:9 means "the fourth watch of the night; from 3 AM to 6 AM"... and not the evening time.

Lk.11

Roelof
Mar 17th 2008, 08:58 AM
Alaska

Very interesting post. I always wondered how they counted that 3 days and 3 nights.

valleybldr
Mar 17th 2008, 11:59 AM
Then you deny His fulfillment of the Feast of Firstfruits, and being a firstfruits of the new creation. I have to disagree with you, and exhort others to agree with me. Especially since the word "early (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4404&Version=kjv)" in Mark 16:9 means "the fourth watch of the night; from 3 AM to 6 AM"... and not the evening time.

Lk.11 As I'm sure you know, the day on which the omer was offered was an issue of hot debate between sects of Judaism. If you go with the Sadduceen/Karaite view (majoritive to Christians/Messianics) then it was cut just after sundown on Sat night/Sun morning (the time my guess is that He arose from the grave). It was not offered up until the shortly after sunrise Sunday Morning (my guess as to when He appeared to the Father). This works well with the literal 72 hours/"cut off in the middle of the week" view which I hold. todd

ohlurdy
Mar 17th 2008, 12:58 PM
ohlurdy, the problem with this account is that the women could have annointed Jesus on Friday since that would not have been a sabbath. Unless of course you are suggesting that Thursday, Friday, and Saturday were all sabbaths that week.

Instead, what is given in scripture is that the women followed Joseph to the tomb, returned and prepared spices, rested the sabbath, and returned the first day of the week. This account becomes contorted in my opinion when you start the account on Wednesday. It just doesn't fit with the scriptures. The women would have prepared spices, rested on Thursday, rested on Friday, rested on Saturday, and then came to the tomb:

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:

51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them; ) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.

52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

God Bless!
What do you mean it doesn't fit? It happened just like the scriptures state. (V.54) speaks of the day of preperation which was that Wednesday-the same day Jesus died before sundown. This is the day they prepared for the sabbath feast before the sabbath feast day they prepared for it just like God had the Israelites do in the OT by gathering enough for two days.

(V.56) The women returned on this same Wednesday after following Joseph the counselor, to the tomb where the body was laid. They returned back to their homes on this same Wednesday, they prepared spices and ointments,they rested on the next day which was a Thursday feast sabbath.

Here it is:
Wednesday-The Day of Preperation
Wednesday night-The sabbath feast has started
Thursday-The sabbath feast
Thursday night-The sabbath fest has ended

Scripture doesn't tell us why it is they didn't go back on Friday with the spices.

Friday night-the Seventh-Day Sabbath began.
Saturday night-the Seventh-Day Sabbath ended.

Sunday-the women went to the tomb very early that morning,
and Jesus was not there. He rose on the seveth day sabboth
being dead three days ad three nights.

valleybldr
Mar 17th 2008, 01:10 PM
Especially since the word "early (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4404&Version=kjv)" in Mark 16:9 means "the fourth watch of the night; from 3 AM to 6 AM"... and not the evening time.

Lk.11 The reference you cited gives two possible definitions not one. You have combined the two. todd

watchinginawe
Mar 17th 2008, 02:15 PM
Scripture doesn't tell us why it is they didn't go back on Friday with the spices. Exactly. That is a large hole IMO. I believe the women would have annointed the body at the very first opportunity.

Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
...
47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

The above suggests death and burial on the day before the sabbath (the day of preparation, which would mean a Friday crucifixion), the sabbath (Saturday), and then the empty tomb on Sunday or the third day.

I have heard it offered that the above suggests that the women bought and prepared their spices all day Friday, and then rested the second sabbath before coming to the grave. But it doesn't read that way IMO, and the other accounts diminish the possibility of such an interpretation.

Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

The above suggests death and burial on the day before the sabbath (the day of preparation, which would mean a Friday crucifixion), the sabbath (Saturday), and then the empty tomb on Sunday or the third day.

Matthew 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
...
Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The above suggests death and burial on the day before the sabbath (the day of preparation, which would mean a Friday crucifixion), the sabbath (Saturday), and then the empty tomb on Sunday or the third day.

John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.

42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

The above suggests death and burial on the day before the sabbath (the day of preparation, which would mean a Friday crucifixion), the sabbath (Saturday), and then the empty tomb on Sunday or the third day.

In all four accounts given in the Gospels, the narratives are consistent. Death and burial on the day of perparation (Friday), then the sabbath (Saturday), and then the empty tomb on Sunday or the third day.

For a Wednesday crucifixion, the narrative should indicate a:
Death and burial on the day of preparation (Wednesday), a high sabbath day (Thursday), a day of preparation (Friday), the sabbath (Saturday), and then the empty tomb on Sunday, or the fifth day.

As someone has already offered, those on the road to Emmaus who encountered the risen Lord on Sunday said it had been but the third day since the crucifixion, not the fifth day.

It has been suggested that a "literalist" interpretation of the events would necessitate a 72 hour burial because of Matthew 12:40. However, I suggest that a "literalist" reading of the accounts given in the Gospels leaves one with the clear reckoning of a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection. To account for them in much any other way suggests the accounts in the Gospels are incomplete and leave as much as many days unaccounted for.

I beleive the Gospels and tradition are consistent in a Friday crucifixion. For that reason, the reconciliation of the scriptures then moves to Matthew 12:40. Question: Are the Gospels completely consistent on how long Jesus says it would be before His resurrection?

God Bless!

Phil Fourie
Mar 17th 2008, 08:20 PM
Exactly. That is a large hole IMO. I believe the women would have annointed the body at the very first opportunity.

Well, seeing that I am already in trouble for this in the Afrikaans side, I might as well give my 2c here;)

Me thinks there was 3 sabbaths that week.

1, the Passover, starting the evening of the 14th day of the first month Nisan (lets say Wednesday evening after 6;):D)

2, the feast of the unleavened bread

3, the Saturday sabbath

23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:5-6

Me thinks the sabbath of the unleavened bread here will start on the evening of the 15th day, like the passover starts on the evening of the 14th day, thus, giving the sabbath of passover on Thursday, the sabbath of the unleavened bread on the Friday and the regular sabbath on Saturday. If you look at Matt 28:1, you will see that it says "in the end of the sabbath", the Greek word here is actually sabbatôn, meaning sabbathS, thus it should actually read "after these DAYS of sabbath" or "after these sabbath DAYS"

Well, I hope this helps clarify why I believe it to be Wednesday;)

God bless you all
Phil

watchinginawe
Mar 17th 2008, 09:45 PM
Well, I hope this helps clarify why I believe it to be Wednesday;)Just for clarification purposes, why do you believe it to be Wednesday? :) You read the scriptures and said "it has to be Wednesday!", or is there another reason why you believe it to be Wednesday that you didn't offer in your post?

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 17th 2008, 11:07 PM
1, the Passover, starting the evening of the 14th day of the first month Nisan (lets say Wednesday evening after 6;):D)Phil, in your reckoning of three sabbaths, do you suppose that Jesus died before the Passover? I think that the scriptures are consistent in stating that Jesus ate the Passover before being betrayed.

For example, in Luke we have: Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

So Jesus was instructing His disciples to prepare for the last supper. Now this would be eaten the night of the betrayal, the night where Peter would deny Christ thrice before sunrise, etc. The same day (6 pm to 6 pm) of the Crucifixion. So that doesn't seem that the Passover could be one of the sabbaths between Jesus' death (the day of preparation) and the discovery of the empty tomb (Sunday morning).

God Bless!

Nihil Obstat
Mar 17th 2008, 11:48 PM
The reference you cited gives two possible definitions not one. You have combined the two. todd

Three to six in the morning *is* early in the morning. And for sure not in the evening.

I want to make sure that as we all search for truth in this matter that we come under the word, and not over it. We want the word to judge us, not us judge the word. Let the word speak plainly. There is no sufficient evidence that Jesus died on any other day than on Friday and rose on any other day but Sunday. I feel that I have proven this beyond doubt with clarity. If anyone is able to prove me wrong, then I'll admit I was wrong and change my beliefs - as a teacher I must remain both teachable *and* stand faithfully proclaiming what I know. But this means that I expect this of you as well should you be unable to prove me wrong.

I'm more than open - I'm eager - to answer any questions about my previous posts where I explain what the Bible actually says. I spoke on how these days align with the Jewish feasts (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1574260&postcount=20) and the creation days (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1575028&postcount=25) (and His meaning of including three *nights* in His language), so please look those two posts over again if you disagree and then let me know why.

Blessings! - Lk.11

markdrums
Mar 18th 2008, 01:17 AM
Let me try giving this explanation again:

The subject of "Three Days" can be rationally explained.
;)

Just hang with me....

It was common cultural practice in the days of the early Jews & Jesus' lifetime, to count ANY PART of a day as "A WHOLE DAY/NIGHT".

We get too "literal" with interpretations all to often, that we fail to understand the context, and/or the historical customs of the times.
The Bible doesn't say it would be a "full / literal 72 hrs...."

Jesus was crucified on Friday. Since this happened ON FRIDAY, it was viewed as day/night #1.
Saturday was the sabbath... which was a full day/night & making it #2.
Sunday was the Resurrection. And, (just as Friday) He was still in the tomb for a part of the day (giving it "credit" as A whole day) and rose that same, third day.

The Bible also says Jesus would be RAISED ON THE THIRD DAY....

Mar 9:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar009.html#31) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.


Mar 10:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar010.html#34) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Luk 9:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk009.html#22) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.


Luk 18:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk018.html#33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.


Luk 24:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#7) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.



Luk 24:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:


Jhn 2:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn002.html#1) And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:


Act 10:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act010.html#40) Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;


1Cr 15:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mat 16:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat016.html#21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


Mat 17:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat017.html#23) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.


Mat 20:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat020.html#19) And shall deliver him totheGentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.


And what about Hoseah? Look at the parallel meaning in this verse:
Hsa 6:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hsa/Hsa006.html#2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Thus, there is no problem with the "3 days"

See what I mean??

Naphal
Mar 18th 2008, 01:46 AM
It was common cultural practice in the days of the early Jews & Jesus' lifetime, to count ANY PART of a day as "A WHOLE DAY/NIGHT".

What was common really isn't relevant. If it can be documented in the bible, especially if Christ used a partial day and called it a day then that would have some weight. Otherwise it is pure speculation that a day meant less than a day. The same argument can then be made that Christ didn't say "3 days and nights in a row" and that could take us into very odd territory.





We get too "literal" with interpretations all to often, that we fail to understand the context, and/or the historical customs of the times.
The Bible doesn't say it would be a "full / literal 72 hrs...."



And it doesnt say "within 3 days and nights" or "less than 3 days and nights"

If we are told 3 days and nights then we have to accept it at face value.




Jesus was crucified on Friday. Since this happened ON FRIDAY, it was viewed as day/night #1.

This is impossible since he was already risen on Sunday. It's not enough time.






The Bible also says Jesus would be RAISED ON THE THIRD DAY....

Mar 9:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar009.html#31) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.


"on" doesn't appear there so it's best not to have it let alone stress it so strongly. This means to raise the third day after he died. Dies on Wednesday evening, in the tomb by the start of Thursday which is what we call wed night, then three days and nights in the tomb and it's the third day he rises. It's 4 days total, one for the death and burial and the 3 to fulfill what he said would happen.

markdrums
Mar 18th 2008, 02:04 AM
What was common really isn't relevant. If it can be documented in the bible, especially if Christ used a partial day and called it a day then that would have some weight. Otherwise it is pure speculation that a day meant less than a day. The same argument can then be made that Christ didn't say "3 days and nights in a row" and that could take us into very odd territory.






And it doesnt say "within 3 days and nights" or "less than 3 days and nights"

If we are told 3 days and nights then we have to accept it at face value.





This is impossible since he was already risen on Sunday. It's not enough time.





"on" doesn't appear there so it's best not to have it let alone stress it so strongly. This means to raise the third day after he died. Dies on Wednesday evening, in the tomb by the start of Thursday which is what we call wed night, then three days and nights in the tomb and it's the third day he rises. It's 4 days total, one for the death and burial and the 3 to fulfill what he said would happen.


What did he say would happen? I haven't read anywhere that Jesus told the disciples, "I have to be in the tomb for 3 FULL days & 3 FULL nights... a literal 72 hours...."
THAT is just an imposed argument, which is often used by skeptics attempting to "refute" the Bible.

Let's go back to what Jesus said:
Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, "The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day."

Scripture doesn't say AFTER 3 days, it says ON the 3rd day.......

It's important and helpful to understand historical culture in certain instances. (Especially like this... when you're trying to figure out how Friday-Sunday = 3 days....) The partial day equaling "a day" is not purely speculation.

Continuing on,
If he ROSE on Sunday, that would mean he was in the tomb ON Sunday, thus, making his resurrection ON the THRID day. How is this "not enough time?"

So, to take JESUS' words at "face value", He himself said "On the third day".

Nihil Obstat
Mar 18th 2008, 02:18 AM
We have in Scripture several different time lengths:

Less than three days - Matt. 27:64
Three full days - John 2:19
More than three days - Matt. 27:63; Mark 8:31

What do we do about this? Surely God's word is not in disagreement with itself! Note especially the "less than / more than" is said by the same person, one right after the other. What do you make of this? Isn't, then, the Jewish culture of primary import here? This occurs several other times in Scripture, mind you. See Gen. 7:4 with 7:10; 2 Ch. 10:5 with 10:12; Matt. 16:21 with Mark 8:31; Acts 10:30 with 1) 10:3, 2) 10:9, 3) 10:23, and 4) 10:24; etcetera. This is called inclusive reckoning (and no, just because the SDA folks use this term doesn't make it dirty). So we see that a partial day is called a whole day quite often (even by Luke in Acts, who is a Gentile).

See this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1575028&postcount=25) if you still don't understand Jesus' *one* reference to three nights. - Lk.11

markdrums
Mar 18th 2008, 02:31 AM
We have in Scripture several different time lengths:

Less than three days - Matt. 27:64
Three full days - John 2:19
More than three days - Matt. 27:63; Mark 8:31

What do we do about this? Surely God's word is not in disagreement with itself! Note especially the "less than / more than" is said by the same person, one right after the other. What do you make of this? Isn't, then, the Jewish culture of primary import here? This occurs several other times in Scripture, mind you. See Gen. 7:4 with 7:10; 2 Ch. 10:5 with 10:12; Matt. 16:21 with Mark 8:31; Acts 10:30 with 1) 10:3, 2) 10:9, 3) 10:23, and 4) 10:24; etcetera. This is called inclusive reckoning (and no, just because the SDA folks use this term doesn't make it dirty). So we see that a partial day is called a whole day quite often (even by Luke in Acts, who is a Gentile).

See this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1575028&postcount=25) if you still don't understand Jesus' *one* reference to three nights. - Lk.11


Great info! :)

Here's something else I found in my "archive of notes".... unfortunately I don't remember where exactly I saved this from, but it's informative & written for ease of understanding.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus predicted that he would be killed "and on the third day be raised to life" (Luke 9:22; 18:33; 24:7, 46). On Sunday afternoon, the apostles described the crucifixion (24:20) and said, "it is the third day since all this took place" (24:21). They understood Sunday afternoon to be on the third day since the crucifixion. But if the crucifixion had been on a Wednesday, Sunday afternoon would have been on the fourth or the fifth day, depending on how one counts.
Were the disciples mistaken? Luke reports their comment as true, and Theophilus would certainly receive the impression that Jesus was killed on the day before the Sabbath (Luke 23:54). Verse 56 refers to the weekly Sabbath, and that is how Theophilus would have understood verse 54, too, since there is no hint in Luke that there may have been more than one "Sabbath" that week. The evidence from the book of Luke seems to point consistently to a Friday crucifixion, and Sunday is the third day from Friday. That is the way Theophilus would have counted it with the evidence available to him.
Jewish custom is to count inclusively, that is, counting the beginning as first. When counting Pentecost, for example, the 50th day is 49 days after the wavesheaf (according to the way we count). Or when John said "after eight days" (John 20:26, NKJ), he meant "one week later" (John 20:26, NIV). In this customary way of counting days, Sunday would be considered the third day from Friday. Luke tells us that Jesus rose on the third day after the crucifixion.
Another example of inclusive counting is seen in the book of Esther. She promised to not eat or drink "for three days, night or day" and after that go to the king (Esther 4:16) — yet she went to the king on the third day (5:1). Apparently any portion of the day was sufficient to count for the day and the night. A biblical phrase that seems to us to be precise may not necessarily match modern ideas of exact time measurement.
Because Jews customarily counted inclusively, it is not appropriate to insist that "on the third day" means "exactly 72 hours later." Where Luke uses the phrase "on the third day," Mark uses the phrase "after three days" (Mark 9:31). Matthew also uses the phrase "after three days," and he equates it with "until the third day" (Matt. 27:63-64). Or they may say "three days later" or "in three days" (Mark 10:34; 14:58). We should not read hourly precision into this variety of phrases.
Although the apostles preached that Jesus was raised "on the third day" (Acts 10:40; 1 Cor. 15:4), they never used that chronology as proof of Jesus’ authenticity. The inspired writers do not seem to be concerned about the exact length of time, nor about the exact description of the three days.

Naphal
Mar 18th 2008, 02:58 AM
What did he say would happen? I haven't read anywhere that Jesus told the disciples, "I have to be in the tomb for 3 FULL days & 3 FULL nights... a literal 72 hours...."

If someone says they will be gone for 3 days I do not think they mean one full day and two partial days of unknown length. Saying 3 days and 3 nights is more detailed and implies full days and nights rather than partial.






Let's go back to what Jesus said:
Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, "The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day."

Scripture doesn't say AFTER 3 days, it says ON the 3rd day.......



It doesn't?


Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mark 8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.



It doesn't say "on" the third day in any of the scriptures so you can't say that and be accurate. You say "on", the bible does not. The bible says "after three days"










Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
It's important and helpful to understand historical culture in certain instances. (Especially like this... when you're trying to figure out how Friday-Sunday = 3 days....) The partial day equaling "a day" is not purely speculation.


If you can show scripture saying a day but it wasn't a full day then please do so. Otherwise it is speculation that Christ did not mean what he said.




So, to take JESUS' words at "face value", He himself said "On the third day".


He said AFTER the third day,. never "on the third day"

Nihil Obstat
Mar 18th 2008, 03:21 AM
If you can show scripture saying a day but it wasn't a full day then please do so. Otherwise it is speculation that Christ did not mean what he said.

But that is what the previous two posts are about... there are *plenty* of examples of this occurring in Scripture.

Naphal
Mar 18th 2008, 03:22 AM
But that is what the previous two posts are about... there are *plenty* of examples of this occurring in Scripture.

I haven't seen any yet.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 18th 2008, 03:50 AM
Acts 10 (I'll only go over the verses important to this particular discussion, but read the whole chapter for the flow.)

Day 1 (let's pretend Monday): 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" ...

Day 2 (Tuesday): 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. ...

Day 3 (Wednesday): 23 Then he invited them in and lodged them. On the next day Peter went away with them, and some brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

Day 4 (Thursday): 24 And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. ...

BUT: 30 So Cornelius said, "Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing."

By your own reasoning, Cornelius must then have been met by an angel twice, first on Sunday, for this to be true. And we both know that's ridiculous. So inclusive reckoning *is* biblical, and there are many other examples of this, both in the NT and the OT, Jewish writers and Gentile.

Lk.11

Codger
Mar 18th 2008, 04:43 AM
Let me try giving this explanation again:

The subject of "Three Days" can be rationally explained.
;)
Just hang with me....

It was common cultural practice in the days of the early Jews & Jesus' lifetime, to count ANY PART of a day as "A WHOLE DAY/NIGHT".

We get too "literal" with interpretations all to often, that we fail to understand the context, and/or the historical customs of the times.
The Bible doesn't say it would be a "full / literal 72 hrs...."

Jesus was crucified on Friday. Since this happened ON FRIDAY, it was viewed as day/night #1.
Saturday was the sabbath... which was a full day/night & making it #2.
Sunday was the Resurrection. And, (just as Friday) He was still in the tomb for a part of the day (giving it "credit" as A whole day) and rose that same, third day.

Thus, there is no problem with the "3 days"

See what I mean??

An excellent and accurate post based on my experience. They indeed did round up partial days to whole days. They had no wristwatches and clocks and only estimated time very roughly - within three hours and I don't know how they did it at night without the reference of the sun.

There were four watches at night and during the day time there were also four divisions of time. The first hour was at 6:00 am, third hour was 9:00 am, the sixth hour was 12:00 noon, the nineth hour was 3:00 PM, and the twelveth hour was 6:00 PM. It logically follows that the courseness of their measurment system would call for rounding off to full days.

The three days and nights were thus...

Day One. Beginning with passover at 6:00PM - thus the beginning of the first night of the three days and nights recorded in scripture.

Jesus was arrested after he celebrated passover with his Disciples -probably around 10:00 PM? He was up all night that night. At 6:00AM daybreak - his inquisition began and proceeded to the crucifixion, which terminated about 3:00 PM. The body was quickly taken down and placed in a tomb as the Sabbath was approaching at 6:00 PM. This was the first full night and day.

Day Two. The Sabbath (Saturday) He was in the tomb all day from 6:00 PM until 6:00 AM. This was the second night and day.

Day Three. He was in the tomb from 6:00 PM until he was seen the next day at about 9:00 AM. This was a full night and only a three hour part of the third day. The numbers are simply rounded off. We're trying to use hyper literalism and say that Jesus was only in the tomb for 14/24ths or 7/12ths of the three day period. The translators should have said - a Day, four watches, and six hours. Rounding up to three days is fine with me.

The proof that this is so is the fact that it was the day of preparation on which he was crucified - it says so plainly. It was a capital offense to be caught doing work on the Sabbath - this was very serious as the penalty was stoning to death, which was considered to be the severest of all the punishments. So all of the work was done the day before the Sabbath to avoid violating the Sabbath. I have a 1 1/4" inch thick commentary taken from the Mishna on how to keep the Sabbath. It is unbelievable what you had to do to comply. If your house caught on fire on the Sabbath, you could only rescue certain things. If you didn't follow the code and if there were two witnesses - you could be brought up on charges before the Sanhedrin.

The fact that it was the day of preparation is in stark contrast and opposition to the full three day theory. You cannot have both; and to me the preparation day fact is the greater of the two.

I just hope this wasn't too insulting and condescending - if it was, I apologize. My personality type is Guardian and we tend to write "matter of fact" and without any fluff. Probably not the best form of prose.

Larry

Moses ate the first passover on the evening of Tuesday April 14th 1462 BC. The blood was put upon the doorway. Moses exited Egypt on Wednesday April 15th with 600,000 footmen plus children and others. A day of release of the captives who were finally set at liberty. Just like Jesus did - he died in the year of the 29th Jubilee (29AD). In this acceptable year of the Lord he set the captives free.

Phil Fourie
Mar 18th 2008, 06:04 AM
Phil, in your reckoning of three sabbaths, do you suppose that Jesus died before the Passover? I think that the scriptures are consistent in stating that Jesus ate the Passover before being betrayed.

I am not going to get too deeply involved in this discussion, but I will just give the following Scripture:saint:

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
John 19:14

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John 19:31

So, no, I do think that Scripture clearly tells us that this all happened on the day op preperation of the passover.

Also why I am going for Wednesday is obviously the 3 days 3 nights.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 12:40

Now this I believe to be a prophecy from Christ, and He here clearly says 3 days and 3 nights. Now, you have to remember that I read the Word as litterally as possible, so words like these cannot pass me by, for the following reasons.

The scribes and Pharisees asked a sign from Him, He told them the only sign they would receive was the sign of Jonas. Now if Jesus was not in the grave for the full 3 days and 3 nights, the scribes and Pharisees would certainly have immediately said He is a liar and did not do as He said. The implication of not being in the grave 3 days AND 3 nights would have been huge in the validity of the gospel IMHO ofcoz;)

Giving this to be a sign and the only sign to be givin in this regard, I believe it should have been litarally 3 Jewish days of 12 hours and 3 Jewish nights of 12 hours, also as Jesus said

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
John 11:9

The other implication of this sign is the regarding the authority of the Word, with this sign Jesus also confirms the events of Jonas to be true.

Ok, then it will work like this.

Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm - 1 night, 1 day
Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm - 2 nights, 2 days
Friday 6pm - Saturday 6pm - 3 nights, 3 days

That meaning then, that Jesus rose from the grave on the first day, after the normal week sabbath, after 6pm (sundown) that evening. He could have rose for all practicle reasons 6:01pm, but lets not get technical, all Scripture says is when Mary got there, He was not there anymore, John also shows us a little more

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
John 20:1

And I agree, early could just as well have been 3AM or whatever, again, lets not get technical here.

Ok, that is where I stand on this, more I do not really have to say:saint:

God bless you all
Phil

Naphal
Mar 18th 2008, 06:04 AM
Acts 10 (I'll only go over the verses important to this particular discussion, but read the whole chapter for the flow.)

Day 1 (let's pretend Monday): 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" ...

Day 2 (Tuesday): 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. ...

Day 3 (Wednesday): 23 Then he invited them in and lodged them. On the next day Peter went away with them, and some brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

Day 4 (Thursday): 24 And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. ...

BUT: 30 So Cornelius said, "Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing."

By your own reasoning, Cornelius must then have been met by an angel twice, first on Sunday, for this to be true. And we both know that's ridiculous. So inclusive reckoning *is* biblical, and there are many other examples of this, both in the NT and the OT, Jewish writers and Gentile.

Lk.11

Nothing in my reasoning would conclude anything like that. The verses are very easy to follow. First day he meets an angel then 4 days later he speaks of it in the past tense saying it happened 4 days before. This really has nothing to do with anything we are discussing in this thread.

brakelite
Mar 18th 2008, 09:27 AM
Well, that is what the two sabbath arguement is about. Three nights beginning with Thursday night. For me, I am OK with the "on the third day" reckoning of Jesus' resurrection.

Though it might seem problematic with Jesus' "three nights" statement, for me, the account of the women resting the sabbath before returning to the tomb on Sunday is pretty straight forward. We can suppose they rested two days, and I don't really have a problem with making it work out with two sabbaths, but I don't have an inclincation to have to make it work out in such a way that seems to contradict the accounts given. In this case, for me, the scriptures are in complete agreement with tradition.

God Bless!

Would you consider this....?

Jesus was crucified on Friday, (2 nights, 3 days) but He died the previous night when He said those immortal words, "Father, not My will but Thine be done".(3 nights 3 days)

markdrums
Mar 18th 2008, 11:53 AM
If someone says they will be gone for 3 days I do not think they mean one full day and two partial days of unknown length. Saying 3 days and 3 nights is more detailed and implies full days and nights rather than partial.







It doesn't?


Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mark 8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.



It doesn't say "on" the third day in any of the scriptures so you can't say that and be accurate. You say "on", the bible does not. The bible says "after three days"










If you can show scripture saying a day but it wasn't a full day then please do so. Otherwise it is speculation that Christ did not mean what he said.



He said AFTER the third day,. never "on the third day"




Actually if you read my previous examples, the scriptures do not say "After" the third day.

Here are a couple again:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mat 17:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat017.html#23) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.


Mat 20:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat020.html#19) And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.


Mar 9:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar009.html#31) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.


Mar 10:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar010.html#34) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Luk 9:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk009.html#22) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.


Luk 18:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk018.html#33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The context is, ON the 3rd day.
I'm not quite understanding where you're reading "AFTER" the 3rd day...:confused

watchinginawe
Mar 18th 2008, 12:58 PM
So, no, I do think that Scripture clearly tells us that this all happened on the day op preperation of the passover.Here is all you have to figure in this. Did Jesus eat the passover? Was Jesus alive on the passover? If we want to get into prophetic utternances that must be kept by any reckoning, consider:

Matthew 26:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,

2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Also why I am going for Wednesday is obviously the 3 days 3 nights.I figured that and that is why I asked. IMO, the plain reading of scripture doesn't get us to there, so in this case, the answer is presumed and the scriptures made to conform.
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 12:40

Now this I believe to be a prophecy from Christ, and He here clearly says 3 days and 3 nights. Now, you have to remember that I read the Word as litterally as possible, so words like these cannot pass me by, for the following reasons.I also am a literalist so I can not excuse the Gospel accounts of the events of the betrayal, trial, crucifixion, death, burial and ressurrection. They all indicate Friday betrayal, trial, crucifixion, death, and burial; and Sunday resurrection.
The scribes and Pharisees asked a sign from Him, He told them the only sign they would receive was the sign of Jonas. Now if Jesus was not in the grave for the full 3 days and 3 nights, the scribes and Pharisees would certainly have immediately said He is a liar and did not do as He said. The implication of not being in the grave 3 days AND 3 nights would have been huge in the validity of the gospel IMHO ofcoz;)

Giving this to be a sign and the only sign to be givin in this regard, I believe it should have been litarally 3 Jewish days of 12 hours and 3 Jewish nights of 12 hours, also as Jesus said

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
John 11:9

The other implication of this sign is the regarding the authority of the Word, with this sign Jesus also confirms the events of Jonas to be true.I have seen many say that Jesus correctly states that it was a whale while the account in Jonah is of a great fish. This kind of reconciliation I don't care for. But if we want to go into Jesus correcting Jonah's account, then I would say that Jonah was in the belly of the whale 36 hours. This proven by how long Jesus was in the Earth by the literal reading of the Gospel accounts.
Ok, then it will work like this.

Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm - 1 night, 1 day
Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm - 2 nights, 2 days
Friday 6pm - Saturday 6pm - 3 nights, 3 days

That meaning then, that Jesus rose from the grave on the first day, after the normal week sabbath, after 6pm (sundown) that evening.In this case, all that is known is the time of day that Jesus was buried and the discovery of the empty tomb on Sunday morning. But to get the three days and nights (72 hours) then one must reckon a sabbath ressurrection (Saturday afternoon) or Jesus would begin to be in the tomb the fourth night. Jesus was buried before the sabbath (being a Thursday in your reckoning), so you would be suggesting that He was buried on Wednesday before 6pm. That would mean his resurrection would be on the sabbath, during the daylight, before 6pm. About twelve hours later and the empty tomb is discovered, and yet in one account (John 20:17) Jesus had not yet time to "ascend to the Father". That would have Jesus wandering around the night before the empty tomb was discovered. :dunno:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


I appreciate your comments and you have brought some new things to the discussion.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 18th 2008, 01:04 PM
If you can show scripture saying a day but it wasn't a full day then please do so. Otherwise it is speculation that Christ did not mean what he said.Naphal, why don't you show us how the accounts in the Gospels consistently account for 72 hours in the grave. Otherwise, it is speculation on your part that the Gospel accounts simply "leave out" all the extra time required to get to 72 hours. Speculation is speculation in any event.

Also, there is no reason that you must be convinced one way or the other. Or myself for that matter. If either of us remain unconvinced of the other's arguements then we can take it up again next year too. ;)

God Bless!

valleybldr
Mar 18th 2008, 01:08 PM
Here is all you have to figure in this. Did Jesus eat the passover? Was Jesus alive on the passover? The "Synoptics vs. John" Passover controversy is the number one issue in NT textual criticism. It does drives me a bit nutty to see people think it's a simple issue to resolve. I need more honesty and less posturing. I have come to terms with the texts and don't have a need for them to agree to my liking. todd

watchinginawe
Mar 18th 2008, 01:10 PM
I wanted to peel this out of an otherwise longer post. One of the arguements of the "three days and three nights" reckoning is that Jesus should have been in the grave (or dead, depending on one's arguements) for exactly 72 hours. That would mean that Jesus would have risen at the same hour of his burial (or death). In any event, that would mean that Jesus arose Saturday between 3PM and 6PM, or Jesus would begin to be in the tomb the fourth night. That would mean Jesus' resurrection would be on the sabbath, during the daylight, before 6pm.

About twelve hours later and the empty tomb is discovered, and yet in one account (John 20:17) Jesus had not yet time to "ascend to the Father". That would have Jesus wandering around the night before the empty tomb was discovered. :dunno:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I believe this account in John indicates that Jesus had just risen before the empty tomb was discovered. In this case, there is no possible reckoning to get 72 hours. So to get 72 hours, one supposes that Jesus rose on Saturday and still had not ascended the morning after. That is just another "fit" that doesn't fit with the scriptures IMO.

God Bless!

Nihil Obstat
Mar 18th 2008, 01:19 PM
Nothing in my reasoning would conclude anything like that. The verses are very easy to follow. First day he meets an angel then 4 days later he speaks of it in the past tense saying it happened 4 days before. This really has nothing to do with anything we are discussing in this thread.

:giveup: As much as I have been enjoying this thread, my posts are largely ignored.

valleybldr
Mar 18th 2008, 01:22 PM
About twelve hours later and the empty tomb is discovered, and yet in one account (John 20:17) Jesus had not yet time to "ascend to the Father". That would have Jesus wandering around the night before the empty tomb was discovered. :dunno:
Why does this bother people? It's like we need a minute by minute accounting of everywhere He goes and what He is doing. He can't spend a night in private/no textual accounting (with His Father in prayer?) without someone having a problem. Granted, it's worth consideration but it's not a "deal breaker." Remember, the omer of barley ("firstfruit") was cut down at sundown but not offered until the next morning after sunrise. todd

watchinginawe
Mar 18th 2008, 01:28 PM
The "Synoptics vs. John" Passover controversy is the number one issue in NT textual criticism. It does drives me a bit nutty to see people think it's a simple issue to resolve. I need more honesty and less posturing. I have come to terms with the texts and don't have a need for them to agree to my liking. toddMe too. I think we probably disagree where we allow disagreement though. :)

The passover issue is very complicated. I have read many reasonings to reconcile the John passage. Here is John Lightfoot's explanation (http://www.studylight.org/com/jlc/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=018) (scroll down to verse 28), which I can't really follow very well, but it is a good example of how complicated this is.

But it is evident (at least to me) that the last supper was prepared as a passover supper in the other Gospels.

God Bless!

valleybldr
Mar 18th 2008, 01:34 PM
But it is evident (at least to me) that the last supper was prepared as a passover supper in the other Gospels.

God Bless!
I agree but you can't hang on a cross and keep the Passover meal at the same time. We weigh the different considerations. My main consideration is that the Messiah was offered up at the same time Scripture prescribes for the the lambs to be sacrificed. From there I weigh different pieces differently in order to come to my perspective/opinion on the subject. todd

watchinginawe
Mar 18th 2008, 01:41 PM
Why does this bother people? It's like we need a minute by minute accounting of everywhere He goes and what He is doing. He can't spend a night in private/no textual accounting (with His Father in prayer?) without someone having a problem. Granted, it's worth consideration but it's not a "deal breaker." Remember, the omer of barley ("firstfruit") was cut down at sundown but not offered until the next morning after sunrise. toddOne is a presumed event (the sabbath resurrection) and the other is a recorded event in the Gospel of John. When considering whether Jesus rose Saturday afternoon, then the John scripture pinpoints the last time Jesus was seen before He had ascended. It isn't about what "bothers" people, but rather what the scriptures actually indicate happened. If one presumes a sabbath resurrection, then they have to consider the appearance of Jesus, not yet ascended, Sunday morning.

If one decides "72 hours is 72 hours" and decides to accept on faith that it must fit, then that is fine by me. My faith reconciles the other way, that Jesus was not referring to a 72 hour time period.

God Bless!

valleybldr
Mar 18th 2008, 03:36 PM
:giveup: As much as I have been enjoying this thread, my posts are largely ignored.
Sounds like it's time for one of my favorite Peter Gabriel songs. Kate Bush does a wonderful job backing him up on "Don't Give Up." Great song. todd

Naphal
Mar 18th 2008, 10:10 PM
Actually if you read my previous examples, the scriptures do not say "After" the third day.

Here are a couple again:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mat 17:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat017.html#23) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.


Mat 20:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat020.html#19) And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.


Mar 9:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar009.html#31) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.


Mar 10:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar010.html#34) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Luk 9:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk009.html#22) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.


Luk 18:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk018.html#33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The context is, ON the 3rd day.
I'm not quite understanding where you're reading "AFTER" the 3rd day...:confused

I'm reading it here:


Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

You are misunderstanding the other scriptures concerning rising the third day. If we take all the scriptures, the after three days, on the third day and the 3 days and 3 nights we get Christ being in the tomb for Thurs, fri and sat and rising on Sunday the first day of the week.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 19th 2008, 12:09 AM
What do you do with Matt. 27:64 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2027:64&version=50) and the word "until (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2193&t=kjv)"?

Alaska
Mar 19th 2008, 12:45 AM
Alaska, quoting the Bible and figuring the account as given in the scriptures is not ridiculous and it isn't slander. If the matters were completely settled one way or another then there wouldn't be any reason for you to have started the thread in the first place. Your original post basically states "Good Friday is a hoax". Now, if you think that settles the matter and any further discussion is "ridiculous slander", then perhaps you should have thought before offering it.

So please, don't start a thread and then tell everyone to "stop" if they see the scriptures different than you.

God Bless!


It remains ridiculous in my opinion to not consider a practical explanation that accounts for "3" as it connects to both the day and the night, in accordance with Jesus' words.
The Friday theory should in fact stop being presented as a fact. Like evolution or some other clearly disproven theory.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 19th 2008, 12:55 AM
The *one* time where Jesus said "three days and three nights" (Matt. 12:40) was when He had made the account of Jonah in the belly of the big fish (Jonah 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah%201:17&version=50)) to be a prophetic picture of His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection. We know this because He calls Himself "a greater than Jonah", and says that Nineveh will condemn that generation - Jonah didn't preach to Nineveh until *after* the fish vomited him out. The sign of Jonah was that the pagan Gentiles would repent and be spared judgment, while the Jews largely would not. As I said before, it's not a false prophesy - it's so prophetically accurate that many miss it - and it's not that He couldn't count, for as I pointed out, it aligns itself perfectly with the creation days *and* the feast days. No - it must have been a figure of speech; a way of speaking that the people listening would understand what exactly He was telling them if they would just chew over His words.

Lk.11

Alaska
Mar 19th 2008, 12:56 AM
I wanted to peel this out of an otherwise longer post. One of the arguements of the "three days and three nights" reckoning is that Jesus should have been in the grave (or dead, depending on one's arguements) for exactly 72 hours. That would mean that Jesus would have risen at the same hour of his burial (or death). In any event, that would mean that Jesus arose Saturday between 3PM and 6PM, or Jesus would begin to be in the tomb the fourth night. That would mean Jesus' resurrection would be on the sabbath, during the daylight, before 6pm.

About twelve hours later and the empty tomb is discovered, and yet in one account (John 20:17) Jesus had not yet time to "ascend to the Father". That would have Jesus wandering around the night before the empty tomb was discovered. :dunno:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I believe this account in John indicates that Jesus had just risen before the empty tomb was discovered. In this case, there is no possible reckoning to get 72 hours. So to get 72 hours, one supposes that Jesus rose on Saturday and still had not ascended the morning after. That is just another "fit" that doesn't fit with the scriptures IMO.

God Bless!

All we really need is a second or two of number 3 of both the daylight and nighttime periods as it can be associated to his time in the heart of the earth.
The Friday thing has absolutely zero time for the night as it should be able to be associated to "3". NO 3 nights. Not even a second though a second would be all we need to justify a theory. He didn't say they had to be complete 12 hour periods of day and night. That is an unreasonable assumption.

The Wednesday theory has 4 nights pass and Sunday is the 4th day since those things had been done as stated in Luke: "Beside all this, this is the 3rd day". Wednesday would make Sunday the 4th day.
Thursday is just right.

Alaska
Mar 19th 2008, 12:58 AM
The *one* time where Jesus said "three days and three nights" (Matt. 12:40) was when He had made the account of Jonah in the belly of the big fish (Jonah 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah%201:17&version=50)) to be a prophetic picture of His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection. We know this because He calls Himself "a greater than Jonah", and says that Nineveh will condemn that generation - Jonah didn't preach to Nineveh until *after* the fish vomited him out. The sign of Jonah was that the pagan Gentiles would repent and be spared judgment, while the Jews largely would not. As I said before, it's not a false prophesy - it's so prophetically accurate that many miss it - and it's not that He couldn't count, for as I pointed out, it aligns itself perfectly with the creation days *and* the feast days. No - it must have been a figure of speech; a way of speaking that the people listening would understand what exactly He was telling them if they would just chew over His words.

Lk.11


Chew and spit out the 3rd night.

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 02:27 AM
What do you do with Matt. 27:64 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2027:64&version=50) and the word "until (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2193&t=kjv)"?


Nothing would need to be "done" to it. The guards were on watch Sat. evening and had been sleeping. When they awoke Sunday and saw he was gone they believed someone snuck in sat night when they were sleeping and took him. This proves they were on duty until Sunday morning.

Taking that fact and adding the 3 days and 3 nights and the "after three days" that he would rise and you have a full picture of what occurred which disproves the day and a half theory of Christ being in the tomb.

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 02:32 AM
The Wednesday theory has 4 nights pass and Sunday is the 4th day since those things had been done as stated in Luke: "Beside all this, this is the 3rd day". Wednesday would make Sunday the 4th day.


Sunday isn't the 4th day because Christ was not there on Sunday. Also, the wednesday theory states he was crucified and died on Wednesday but buried when it became thursday. He was in the tomb all Thurs, all fri and all sat and when sat ended he arose. That's 3 days and 3 nights and fulfills rising after the third day.

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 02:35 AM
Chew and spit out the 3rd night.


Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So you think we should change our bibles to read:


Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days in the heart of the earth.

Did Jesus make a mistake or did a scribe add the 3 nights to God's word?

watchinginawe
Mar 19th 2008, 02:53 AM
It remains ridiculous in my opinion to not consider a practical explanation that accounts for "3" as it connects to both the day and the night, in accordance with Jesus' words.
The Friday theory should in fact stop being presented as a fact. Like evolution or some other clearly disproven theory.Just for the record, I have considered it. It seems plausible and the reckoning you offered in the original post is my second choice. :) But bottom line, after considering it I can't make the stretch required in the accounts given. An extra day doesn't fit in any of the Gospel accounts. Now the 72 hour reckoning forces two extra days (the Wednesday crucifixion) and seems, to me, to just discount the narratives in the Gospels entirely in favor of math.

So, I have considered it and I thank you for offering the thread. It is interesting.

As for comparing my acceptance of the accounts of the Gospels which indicate a Friday crucifixion to the theory of evolution, well that is just plain strange. :dunno: But interesting! And fun! :) You are obviously passionate about the subject so don't take the discussion the wrong way. We are all reading the same scriptures. :hug:

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 19th 2008, 03:06 AM
Nothing would need to be "done" to it. The guards were on watch Sat. evening and had been sleeping. When they awoke Sunday and saw he was gone they believed someone snuck in sat night when they were sleeping and took him. This proves they were on duty until Sunday morning.Naphal, you do know that you are recounting a purchased lie, right? The soldiers were witness to the events at the tomb. Consider:

Mattew 28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,

13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.

14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.

15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 03:15 AM
Naphal, you do know that you are recounting a purchased lie, right? The soldiers were witness to the events at the tomb.

You are mistaken about the purpose of why I quoted the scriptures as I am only repeating what they said in this scripture:


Matthew 28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
Matthew 28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
Matthew 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.



I am not agreeing with them. What this proves is they were there at the tomb until Sunday morning and that means they were there the entire three days and left on the fourth day. It is some peoples theory that Christ wasnt in the tomb a full 3 days and nights yet the guards were.

watchinginawe
Mar 19th 2008, 03:16 AM
Sunday isn't the 4th day because Christ was not there on Sunday. Also, the wednesday theory states he was crucified and died on Wednesday but buried when it became thursday. He was in the tomb all Thurs, all fri and all sat and when sat ended he arose. That's 3 days and 3 nights and fulfills rising after the third day.Naphal, can you supply any scripture, at all, that would indicate that Jesus was buried after 6 pm? The whole issue at hand here, the taking down of the bodies, Joseph securing the body of Jesus and laying him in the tomb, the women not being able to annoint the body, were all done because the sabbath was coming. You are suggesting that Jesus was buried on a different day than He died. You have been quick to mention speculation in the thread. Please back up your speculation above with some scripture. Consider:

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
...
38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.

42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 03:36 AM
Naphal, can you supply any scripture, at all, that would indicate that Jesus was buried after 6 pm?


Yes.


Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
Matthew 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
Matthew 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
Matthew 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

Jesus died after 3pm but the body hadn't even been claimed yet until "even" which was some unknown time after his death and is roughly between 6pm and 9pm.

Then his body had to be prepared and then put into the tomb. All of that takes a long time even by today's standards but back then doing this would have taken even longer.



You are suggesting that Jesus was buried on a different day than He died.

lol, yes that is exactly what occurred. Is that something shocking to you? Did you know it's rare if not almost impossible in modern countries that a person would be buried the same day they died? They buried people faster in the old days but it was a new day after 6pm by Jewish custom. He died Wednesday evening, and was buried later that evening when it was officially thursday.



39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

watchinginawe
Mar 19th 2008, 04:23 AM
Yes.


Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
Matthew 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
Matthew 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
Matthew 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

Jesus died after 3pm but the body hadn't even been claimed yet until "even" which was some unknown time after his death and is roughly between 6pm and 9pm. Naphal, you stopped the scriptures just a bit shy above. Consider:

Matthew 27:61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

So we see that the events prior to verse 62 happened on the day of the preparation, the same day that Jesus died.
Then his body had to be prepared and then put into the tomb. All of that takes a long time even by today's standards but back then doing this would have taken even longer.No, they even selected Joseph's tomb which was close to get it done before the sabbath.
lol, yes that is exactly what occurred. Is that something shocking to you? Did you know it's rare if not almost impossible in modern countries that a person would be buried the same day they died? They buried people faster in the old days but it was a new day after 6pm by Jewish custom. He died Wednesday evening, and was buried later that evening when it was officially thursday.Regardless of what you might find funny, the scriptures indicate that Jesus died and was buried the same day. Again, as you say, you are offering mere speculation.
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Maybe you are tired, so I won't press the point too hard on the above. Just look to John 3 and you will find what the above reference is about. It has nothing to do about when Nicodemus helped Joseph to bury Jesus.

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 05:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1577545#post1577545)
Yes.


Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
Matthew 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
Matthew 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
Matthew 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

Jesus died after 3pm but the body hadn't even been claimed yet until "even" which was some unknown time after his death and is roughly between 6pm and 9pm.

Naphal, you stopped the scriptures just a bit shy above. Consider:

Matthew 27:61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

So we see that the events prior to verse 62 happened on the day of the preparation, the same day that Jesus died.


lol

How is that stopping shy of anything? You asked me to prove that Jesus was buried after 6pm and the verses I posted do that. The two verses you have added don't have anything to do with proving what time he was buried so why would I have included them?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal
Then his body had to be prepared and then put into the tomb. All of that takes a long time even by today's standards but back then doing this would have taken even longer.

No, they even selected Joseph's tomb which was close to get it done before the sabbath.


We don't know how close or far it was and it isn't that important. The body wasn't even claimed until that evening so it was definitely officially the next day when he was put in the tomb.






Regardless of what you might find funny, the scriptures indicate that Jesus died and was buried the same day. Again, as you say, you are offering mere speculation again.

It's not speculation in the slightest. You don't understand how days were figured back then. At about 6pm it became the next day for the Jews. Jesus died before 6pm and was buried after 6pm so yes he died on one day and was buried the next day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

Maybe you are tired, so I won't press the point too hard on the above. Just look to John 3 and you will find what the above reference is about. It has nothing to do about when Nicodemus helped Joseph to bury Jesus.


That was a bit of a joke which I why I didn't add commentary but we already know it was night when Nicodemus came with these things because the scriptures state Christ's body wasnt claimed until the evening and this occurred after that.

watchinginawe
Mar 19th 2008, 11:27 AM
lol

How is that stopping shy of anything? You asked me to prove that Jesus was buried after 6pm and the verses I posted do that. The two verses you have added don't have anything to do with proving what time he was buried so why would I have included them?I see. Verse 62 and all the other Gospel accounts should be ignored so that you can be convinced of your arguement. :dunno: That is fine. Let others decide.

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 11:36 AM
I see. Verse 62 and all the other Gospel accounts should be ignored so that you can be convinced of your arguement. :dunno: That is fine. Let others decide.

God Bless!

You are changing the subject. You wanted me to show you that Jesus was buried after 6pm and I did that. Why don't you comment on that rather than waste time on two verses that have nothing at all to do with this topic?

watchinginawe
Mar 19th 2008, 11:51 AM
lol, yes that is exactly what occurred. Is that something shocking to you? Did you know it's rare if not almost impossible in modern countries that a person would be buried the same day they died? They buried people faster in the old days but it was a new day after 6pm by Jewish custom.Naphal, the above bolded part is why verse 62 is relevant. The Gospel is telling events. And as you have learned, the day, the crucifixion day, the day that Jesus Christ died, ended before 6PM. So, with the above commentary from you regarding the Jewish custom, and verse 62, maybe you can make the connection.

Matthew 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
You wanted me to show you that Jesus was buried after 6pm and I did that.Please reference Naphal's above remarks for a proper understanding of the Jewish day and at what time it began.

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 12:00 PM
Naphal, the above bolded part is why verse 62 is relevant. The Gospel is telling events. And as you have learned, the day, the crucifixion day, the day that Jesus Christ died, ended before 6PM. So, with the above commentary from you regarding the Jewish custom, and verse 62, maybe you can make the connection.

Matthew 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

I don't see the importance of this. It's simply talking about the next day.

IBWatching
Mar 19th 2008, 08:33 PM
The subject of "Three Days" can be rationally explained.
;)

Just hang with me....

It was common cultural practice in the days of the early Jews & Jesus' lifetime, to count ANY PART of a day as "one day".
Meaning, If I came to your house for a visit on Friday evening, & stayed for 3 days, it would be as follows:
Friday- I arrive at your house. = day 1. (even if it was in the evening... it would still be considered "a day".
Saturday- Still visiting, still hanging out at your crib. = day 2.
Sunday - I get up, gather my "belongings" & depart on Sunday morning. = day 3.

So, according to old, Jewish customs, I was at your house for "3 days".

See what I mean??

:)

This is part of the solution which can corroborate the accounts in the Synoptic Gospels with that of John's. The other part of the solution is recognizing that the Pharisees observed a "sunrise-to-sunrise" accounting of the "days", while the Sadducees, who controlled the Temple, observed a "sunset-to-sunset" accounting of the "days". That is why John said Jesus' accusers had not yet eaten their Passover meal:


John 18:28 Then they *led Jesus from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.If one is willing to see how John stated the "day" from the Sadducees' viewpoint and combine it with the part of the solution which you have explained, there really is no problem with Jesus dying on Friday and still being dead "3 days and 3 nights". It is a total accounting which would cover both viewpoints.

Naphal
Mar 19th 2008, 09:55 PM
If one is willing to see how John stated the "day" from the Sadducees' viewpoint and combine it with the part of the solution which you have explained, there really is no problem with Jesus dying on Friday and still being dead "3 days and 3 nights". It is a total accounting which would cover both viewpoints.


Only if he rose up on a Tuesday but we know he rose on Sunday which makes a Friday death impossible.

Alaska
Mar 20th 2008, 12:47 AM
Sunday isn't the 4th day because Christ was not there on Sunday. Also, the wednesday theory states he was crucified and died on Wednesday but buried when it became thursday. He was in the tomb all Thurs, all fri and all sat and when sat ended he arose. That's 3 days and 3 nights and fulfills rising after the third day.

But you can't get ON the third day, which is what most of the prophesies say.
Since the sun set shortly after he was buried it is reasonable to start counting the days from the following morning light. If he dies Thursday afternoon, then Friday's day and Saturday's day are two days as in daylight as opposed to "day" meaning 24 hours. "Inclusive reasoning" can add the short period of time he was in the earth on Thursday to get AFTER three days, which is what one account records.
While the Wednesday model accomodates "after" 3 days very well, it cannot accomodate ON the third day as the Thursday model can.

On Sunday, those who met Jesus near Emmaus, said to Him, and beside all this, "this is the third day" since these things happened.
That also fits with the Thursday model. The Wednesday model would have to say that Sunday is the 4th day since those things happened. This in itself is enough to disprove the Wednesday theory.
Two Sabbaths back to back, (the Thursday model) would also account for why the women had to wait before bringing the spices to the tomb. The Wednesday model has a free day in between Thursday, and Sat. (the two Sabbaths in that model) at which time the women were free to come to the tomb.

Charity rejoices at the truth. The main point which should be rejoiced at is the revelation that the two Sabbaths (often) during passover week account for the missing day needed to get 3 and 3. They had to take his body down because of the Sabbath and that Sabbath was a high day. Every single year the day following Passover was a Sabbath, even if it was on the 2nd day of the week (Monday). So the assumption that they had to take his body down because of the Sabbath means that that Sabbath had to be Saturday, is just plain ignoring of the facts. It COULD have been a Saturday if that particular year the special 15th-day-of-the-month Sabbath happened to fall on Saturday. But then again that makes Jesus to have made a false prophecy.
There is "day" meaning the 24 hour period and there is the specific terminology of 3 days and 3 nights plainly separating the nightime periods from the daytime periods.
The special Sabbath of the 15th accomodates the means to provide for the missing day inherent in the Friday theory.

Why on earth cannot we get a rejoicing on this thread?

Is it because of the tendency we have as humans to say "the old wine is better"?
Friday is better, in spite of the fact that the day following the Passover was always a sabbath, even it it fell on a Thursday??
Friday is better because it cannot be grasped with enough faith that there did in fact exist 2 Sabbaths during Passover week (often) as specifically laid out in Ex. 12?
Friday is better because it is easier to go with the flow of what most people say is truth even if it ignores scriptures and makes Jesus to have prophesied falsely?

markdrums
Mar 20th 2008, 12:52 AM
I'm reading it here:


Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

You are misunderstanding the other scriptures concerning rising the third day. If we take all the scriptures, the after three days, on the third day and the 3 days and 3 nights we get Christ being in the tomb for Thurs, fri and sat and rising on Sunday the first day of the week.


OK, So there's one reference with the word "after".... and one reference to three days and three nights, (when Jesus refers back to Jonah...... ) But how many times is it described as "The third day he shall rise again"....?
Let's see....
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mat 16:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat016.html#21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


Mat 17:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat017.html#23) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.


Mat 20:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat020.html#19) And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.


Mar 9:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar009.html#31) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.


Mar 10:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar010.html#34) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Luk 9:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk009.html#22) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.


Luk 18:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk018.html#33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.


Luk 24:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#7) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.



Luk 24:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:


Jhn 2:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn002.html#1) And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:


1Cr 15:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't list ALL of them..... but you get the idea.
So, I wonder..... How does a "literalist" decide WHAT & WHEN to take scripture "literally"? It was LITERALLY stated many, many times that Jesus would be raised on the third day..... (Although the word "on" doesn't "literally" appear in the verses, CONTEXT makes it explicitly clear that it means ON the third day.)

Not ALL scripture can be taken "literally". You need to use discernment to know when not to read it that way. If ALL scripture was to be "literal", then Jesus saying, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again" would refer to a "literal - physical, man-made temple, rather than His BODY. (This was obviously a "spiritualized" statement.)

So, how are we "Non-Literalists" supposed to understand what to take literally, & when to take it literally?
Because, literally looking at the greater number of times we're told "ON the third day," it seems that our interpretation should be just that.

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 12:53 AM
But you can't get ON the third day, which is what most of the prophesies say.

None of them say "on the third day". The word "on" isn't used by Christ in any of them.



Since the sun set shortly after he was buried it is reasonable to start counting the days from the following morning light.

No. He was buried after it was already dark and that started a new day right then. It was already dark before the body was even claimed. You are trying to say he was buried when it was still daylight but that isn't true.

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 12:57 AM
OK, So there's one reference with the word "after".... and one reference to three days and three nights, (when Jesus refers back to Jonah...... ) But how many times is it described as "The third day he shall rise again"....?



Which means you are misunderstanding what that means since we know that he was to rise after three days and nights in the tomb.

He arose the third day right at the moment it became the next day so both rising the third day and after three days and nights match. It's two different ways of saying the same thing. But you are only taking some of the scriptures and not accepting the two others that give more detail.

The scriptures say his body wasn't claimed until even which is evening. He wasn't buried until after that meaning it was dark the day he was buried and by Jewish and biblical terms that makes it the next day. So a Friday death means he was buried very early Sat (Friday night to us) and already being risen early Sunday morning makes only one day and night, a 24 hour or slightly more period. Thats why we have to back up two more days in order to have 3 days in the tomb.

markdrums
Mar 20th 2008, 01:56 AM
Which means you are misunderstanding what that means since we know that he was to rise after three days and nights in the tomb.

He arose the third day right at the moment it became the next day so both rising the third day and after three days and nights match. It's two different ways of saying the same thing. But you are only taking some of the scriptures and not accepting the two others that give more detail.

The scriptures say his body wasn't claimed until even which is evening. He wasn't buried until after that meaning it was dark the day he was buried and by Jewish and biblical terms that makes it the next day. So a Friday death means he was buried very early Sat (Friday night to us) and already being risen early Sunday morning makes only one day and night, a 24 hour or slightly more period. Thats why we have to back up two more days in order to have 3 days in the tomb.


Again,
How does a "literalist" decide WHAT & WHEN to take scripture "literally"? It was LITERALLY stated many, many times that Jesus would be raised on the third day..... (Although the word "on" doesn't "literally" appear in the verses, CONTEXT makes it explicitly clear that it means ON the third day.)

How do you come up with the idea that He arose the third day right at the moment it became the next day ?? I haven't seen literal scriptual evidence that states that anywhere....

I've also previously given evidence that it was customary for the Jews to consider ANY part of a day, as "a day". It's not just my personal opinion, or my own presumption... it's a historical fact.

You still failed to address the question; How do you determine WHAT to take literally, & WHEN to do so. You showed ONE example where it said "AFTER three days"... and ONE example that mentioned "three days & three nights".
But I've listed about A DOZEN (well "eleven" to be literal) that state ON the third day.

Jesus was Crucified on Friday. *Day 1 of being delivered up into the hands of his accusers*....(which was a part of the prophecy)
Day 2 was Saturday, the Sabbath.
Day 3 was when the resurrection occured. Thus, Jesus was RAISED "the third day".

Maybe I misunderstand the whole concept of "literalism".... because, MY interpretation of "reading & interpreting the Bible LITERALLY" means, "if it makes sense from a literal viewpoint, then don't look for any other explanation".
But, everytime this "rule of thumb" is brought up, it's never followed according to the "rule". Words like, "near, soon, & at hand" are interpreted as "Far off". The same ususally goes when "70 weeks / 490 years" is the subject.... because the "Millennium" is seen as a literal 1000, consecutive years, but 490 years becomes 2490....??

So, how do you ignore eleven examples of the scripture saying "on the third day" from a literalist stance?

By the way, I apologize if I come off as attacking you. Because I'm not debating YOU personally, but rather, this viewpoint. (You're not the only one who has ever brought this up.) ;)

I'm just really trying to understand how the literalist interpretation works.

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 02:04 AM
By the way, I apologize if I come off as attacking you. Because I'm not debating YOU personally, but rather, this viewpoint. (You're not the only one who has ever brought this up.) ;)

I'm just really trying to understand how the literalist interpretation works.


You are relying too much on the literalist accusation to justify your position. It's weak and doesn't help your cause. I have explained that rising the third day is the same as after three days if you understand and weigh both together with the three days and nights. It doesn't matter if something is said 11 times or two times, all 13 are true and must be harmonized if any apparent contradictions exist. I have also explained that a Friday death only gives a little more than one day in the tomb which isn't enough according to any of the scriptures about the time length.

Alaska
Mar 20th 2008, 04:32 AM
None of them say "on the third day". The word "on" isn't used by Christ in any of them.




No. He was buried after it was already dark and that started a new day right then. It was already dark before the body was even claimed. You are trying to say he was buried when it was still daylight but that isn't true.


They had to get him in the ground before the sun went down. They didn't have time to do it all properly, hence the need to come later with anointing etc.

I was talking about counting the daylights not the days as in 24 hour days. These are two separate issues. You cannot mix up the designation of a 24 hour day with the distinction of counting the separate daylight and nighttime periods.

The third day prophesies can be seen to deal with the 24 hour designation of "day", while the specific terminology of 3 days and 3 nights is clearly a specific reference.
The error with the Wednesday model, is that it presupposes that the days and nightime periods have to be full periods, while the same people who push that have probably been practical-liberal with their own reckoning and have called something a day which in reality was only a part of a day.
What's the big deal? A part of a day can account for a day.
But this does no favor to the Friday model because it is bankrupt because it doesn't even get close to "after" 3 days or to 3 nights.
Can the professing non literalists see that their non literalism is really a denial of a practically proven reality of Scripture? Namely that the Sabbath following the Passover was not a normal Sabbath, that it was a Sabbath that could have fallen on a Friday with the normal Sabbath following, with Sunday as the third day. After 3 days would come into play in counting the daylight that he was buried: Thurs. Fri. Sat. Sunday is after those 3 days. ON the third day comes from counting from the 24 hour day that began right after he was buried. 3 days and three nights comes from Thursday's day Friday's day and Saturday's day; Thursday's night Friday's night and Saturday's night.
The Wednesday model has too much time and presumes that each period had to be complete. A bit legalistic. Unnecessary.

Thursday can be made to work while Friday doesn't have enough time and Wednesday has too much time.

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 04:45 AM
They had to get him in the ground before the sun went down.

According to this, the body wasn't even claimed yet until evening:


Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
Matthew 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
Matthew 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
Matthew 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

I think you are confusing that they needed to have the body off the cross before the sun went down, not to have him buried before it went down.



I was talking about counting the daylights not the days as in 24 hour days. These are two separate issues. You cannot mix up the designation of a 24 hour day with the distinction of counting the separate daylight and nighttime periods.

Being buried after evening on a Fri means it was actually Saturday, so then you have Sat daylight, and then he is already risen by Sunday daylight so you still don't have enough time to fulfill prophecies.




A part of a day can account for a day.

Can that be proven using scripture? When someone says a specific amount of days (and nights), can you show they mean less than they state?



But this does no favor to the Friday model because it is bankrupt because it doesn't even get close to "after" 3 days or to 3 nights.

True enough!






After 3 days would come into play in counting the daylight that he was buried: Thurs. Fri. Sat. Sunday is after those 3 days. ON the third day comes from counting from the 24 hour day that began right after he was buried. 3 days and three nights comes from Thursday's day Friday's day and Saturday's day; Thursday's night Friday's night and Saturday's night.
The Wednesday model has too much time and presumes that each period had to be complete. A bit legalistic. Unnnecessary.



The so called wed model is actually what you call the Thurs model. He was buried on Thurs at it's beginning which was at night.

watchinginawe
Mar 20th 2008, 04:11 PM
I think you are confusing that they needed to have the body off the cross before the sun went down, not to have him buried before it went down.
...
He was buried on Thurs at it's beginning which was at night.So, was Jesus buried the day after His death? Naphal states that Jesus' body laid "unclaimed" for hours and wasn't even claimed until the next day. Therefore, Naphal claims that since Jesus' body wasn't recovered for burial until the sabbath day, then Jesus also had to be buried on the sabbath.

Let us look at all four Gospel accounts to see if that is what the scriptures say or if that is just speculation offered to fit some dogmatic position on the subject. Though the post is long, please take the time to read the scripture accounts of the burial of Jesus:

First, Matthew.

Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

The above is offered as proof that Jesus' body laid unclaimed until the night time. But the greek work used here has more than one meaning (From Studylight.org (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3798)):

late
evening
either from three to six o'clock p.m.
from six o'clock p.m. to the beginning of night
As we follow the account in Matthew, the following clarifications are given:

58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

We see in verse 62 that the events of 57-61 happened on the day of the preparation, or the same day that Jesus died.

Not leaving it at just this Gospel account though, let us move on to the Gospel of Mark:

Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, ...

We see here that Mark starts just like Matthew. So was Jesus' body claimed that night? Continuing...

Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

So we see here in Mark that there is no doubt left that the time of the even was still before the sabbath. So the events that follow happen BEFORE THE SABBATH. Continuing...

43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.

Now the above shows that Jesus hadn't been dead very long by the time Joseph came to Pilate to ask for the body. Pilate was yet unaware that Jesus had already died! So the thought that Jesus' body went unclaimed for hours is dispelled authoritatively here. Continuing...

46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

Naphal claims that Jesus' body wasn't claimed until night time on the sabbath. But here we have Joseph buying fine linens. These could not have been purchased on the sabbath. Joseph bought them in the even (between 3pm and 6pm) as the sabbath approached.

What about the Gospel of Luke?

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:

51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them; ) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.

52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

The Gospel of Luke leaves no other possibility except that the burial occurred on the day of preparation and not the sabbath (v. 54). All of the events had completed, Jesus' last supper, His betrayal, His trial, His Crucifixion, His death, and His burial all happened on the day of preparation. And then the sabbath was about to begin.

What about the Gospel of John?

John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.

42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

John also makes it clear that the events of the burial were performed on the day of preparation, before the sabbath. The tomb was close so the burial could be completed before the sabbath. It couldn't wait until the next day, "because of the Jews' preparation day". The next day would have been the sabbath and therefore the burial could not be accomplished.

So we see that all four Gospel accounts are in harmony regarding the day of Jesus' death and burial. All four Gospels have Joseph of Arimathea laying the body of Jesus in the tomb on the day of preparation, before the sabbath. There is no controversy and really no room for doubt. Supposing that Jesus was buried on the sabbath instead of the day of preparation must needs be some sort of dogmatic belief necessary to support some other dogmatic belief. :dunno:

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 20th 2008, 10:17 PM
So, was Jesus buried the day after His death? Naphal states that Jesus' body laid "unclaimed" for hours and wasn't even claimed until the next day. Therefore, Naphal claims that since Jesus' body wasn't recovered for burial until the sabbath day, then Jesus also had to be buried on the sabbath.

I never said it was on the Sabbath! It was before the Sabbath!

Alaska
Mar 21st 2008, 06:09 PM
As soon as the sun went down it was the special 15th of the month Sabbath.
I agree that they buried him before the Sabbath, as was their intention. He was short time in the heart of the earth on that 5th day of the week.

If the 5th day of the week was the day he died, then the 6th day of the week was the 15th and hence the special Sabbath. Then the 7th day is the normal Sabbath: 2 Sabbaths back to back.

This makes the 1st day of the week the 3rd day, after 3 days and it can be understandably agreed that he was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.

He was in on the 5th day's daylight before sundown, He was in the whole daylight of the 6th day and the whole daylight of the 7th day. That is understandably in the heart of the earth for those three daylight periods even though the 5th day's daylight is brief.
Likewise the full nighttime periods of the 5th and 6th day are followed by a partial 3rd night of the 7th day's nightime period since he rose early while it was still dark. Again, sufficient to be counted as one of the nights he was in the heart of the earth.

Was he in the heart of the earth for the 5th day's daylight period? Yes, but not the whole daylight period. Let it suffice to say that he was in fact in the heart of the earth on the 5th day's daylight period. And there is no problem with this models 3 nights: 5th, 6th, and 7th day's night's.
We can get three and three out of this but the alternatives to this are unacceptable.

The Friday model, even when counting that 6th day's daylight, gives only that Friday's day and Saturday's day in the heart of the earth. This does not work with regard to 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth because he was risen before the third light. Maximum you have only two days to deal with. And the nights for this model are just as bad: Friday's night and Saturday's night, though not complete, but that's OK, we can honestly give the Friday model 2 nights but that is all: not anywhere close to proving that Jesus did not prophesy falsely.

Luke 24
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

It happened on the 5th day of the week. Then came the 6th and 7th day. The 1st day of the week when the above was spoken is the third day since he had been killed.

That 1st day of the week would have to have been spoken of as the 4th day since he was killed if He had been killed on the 4th day of the week (Wednesday).
Calling sundown of Wednesday the beginning of Thursday doesn't do any good. The Wednesday death model has Sunday as the 4th day since it happened no matter how it is juggled around.

Just accept the compromise of allowing the 5th's day daylight to be counted as one of the days in the heart of the earth as a better alternative to the Friday model that doesn't have a 3 connected to either the days or the nights in the heart of the earth.
If Jesus died on Friday, the 6th day, then he can't count and He prophesied falsely.

watchinginawe
Mar 21st 2008, 07:57 PM
If Jesus died on Friday, the 6th day, then he can't count and He prophesied falsely.Alaska, the above is what drives all the extra day reckoning. If Jesus died on Thursday, then we could just as easily say that the Gospel accounts can't be trusted. It is a mystery, but we don't have to paint Jesus in a box and say it has to be a particular way or He was a false prophet.

There has been some good posts offered about "the third day", but are the Gospels completely consistent that it was to be 3 days and 3 nights? Even in your reckoning you are letting the 1st of the three "days" be "compromised". Using your own arguement, that would indicate that Jesus doesn't know what a day is. :rolleyes: As someone offered, night and day are 12 hour periods. So if one is going to make it work out mathmatically, then we are looking at 72 hours. But we already know the problems with "making it fit" as such efforts don't fit the Gospel accounts.

I agree with you that we don't need to approach the matter to account for exactly three days and three nights. However, I don't view it as compromise. We have concerning Jesus' prophesying on the matter three days and nights, after three days, on the third day, and in three days; all from Jesus. Can the events be reconciled to any one of these options? Or can we take the events and discern exactly what Jesus was offering? I say the later as the scriptures indicate a Friday death and Sunday resurrection. was true?

Consider the following.

"The third day", from The Gospel of Luke (Jesus' words presented in red):

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

So here we have Jesus also prophesying that he would be killed and then raised the third day.

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Here we have Jesus reckoning a "thrid day". There is today, then tomorrow, then the third day. Applying that reckoning to his death, burial, and resurrection, He would have been buried today (Good Friday), in the grave tomorrow, then the third day, the first day of the week, Jesus is raised! :pp

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Here again we have Jesus stating that He will rise the third day.

Luke 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Here the angel at the tomb says Jesus is not there, because it was the third day.

Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

From those on the road to Emmaus, Jesus was crucified and today (Sunday) was the third day since. Crucifixion, sabbath, then resurrection day, the third day.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

So here, from Jesus after He was resurrected, we have Jesus still adhering to the third day.

So, we have today, Good Friday, tomorrow, the sabbath, and then the third day, the Lord's Day, when He rose again!

Is there three days and three nights in Luke? Is there after three days in Luke. Is there after the third day in Luke?

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:50 AM
22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

So here we have Jesus also prophesying that he would be killed and then raised the third day.

The third day what though? It's a vague statement. He doesn't even mention details such as his burial so this is a quick and brief statement of some of the main things but surely not all. What if he means the third day after being buried rather than the third day after being killed? If he was buried after it officially turned into the next day then it would mean he was killed at the end of one day and not buried until the very start of the next day which moves the calendar up one day from your position. This is why taking the three days and nights and the "after three days" and weighing them with the other verses is so very important. All the gospel statements must align and agree or else there is error in the gospels.

skc53
Mar 22nd 2008, 09:25 AM
I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and that he rose on the 3rd day, and that's all that matters to me. Praise the Lord, thank you Jesus!:pray:

watchinginawe
Mar 22nd 2008, 12:53 PM
The third day what though? It's a vague statement. He doesn't even mention details such as his burial so this is a quick and brief statement of some of the main things but surely not all. From Matthew:

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,

19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

That seems pretty detailed to me. Not much vagueness in that.

From Mark:

Mark 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

This seems pretty detailed to me. Not vague at all. These comments of Jesus are why some reckon Jesus' prophecies from His death, and not His burial. Also, the destroy the temple and built it back also fits reckoning from His death. Some even go so far as to reckon the third day from "and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests", which I think is perfectly all right too, looking at the prophecies. This also works with v.18 from Matthew above.

Regardless, these aren't "vague" references by Jesus.
What if he means the third day after being buried rather than the third day after being killed? If he was buried after it officially turned into the next day then it would mean he was killed at the end of one day and not buried until the very start of the next day which moves the calendar up one day from your position. This is why taking the three days and nights and the "after three days" and weighing them with the other verses is so very important. All the gospel statements must align and agree or else there is error in the gospels.I disagree with this statement all around. First, we have already discussed at length when Jesus was buried so no more fruit can come of discussing that further.

Second, we have concerning Jesus' prophesying on the matter three days and nights, after three days, on the third day, and in three days; all from Jesus. Should the Gospel events regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus be reconciled to any one of these options? Or should we take the events "as Gospel truth" ;) and discern Jesus' prophecy? I say the later as the scriptures indicate a Friday death and Sunday resurrection.

God Bless!

dashby01
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:12 PM
Easter and Good Friday are traditions handed down not biblical fact.

Scripture is clear when it states that early on the first day of the week before the sun had rose, they went to the tomb and found it empty. So there is no doubt at all that sometime before the sun came up on Sunday morning, our Lord had risen from the grave.

It is also clear that the Jewish day started at sundown. Reference Gensis when it says "evening and morning".

A brief study of Jewish feasts and holy days will show you that it was not uncommon to have more then one Sabbath in a week. There were weekly Sabbaths and High Sabbaths.

Our Lord also told his desciples that he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights.

So if you take what the bible says to be truth and without error, then instead of trying to make up excuses or ways to make this traddition of man regarding Good Friday and Easter, I would suggest you take the bible for what is says and understand through study. The reality of the myth of Good Friday and Easter will be revealed through this study.

------------------------------
Bottom Line - Our Lord was sacrificed for our sins by being nailed to the cross, and three days and three nights later he rose from that grave fullfilling all prophecy. That is the gospel. Battling over what day he was crucified is pointless and will not bear fruit.

- Dash

watchinginawe
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:37 PM
Easter and Good Friday are traditions handed down not biblical fact.
...
So if you take what the bible says to be truth and without error, then instead of trying to make up excuses or ways to make this traddition of man regarding Good Friday and Easter, I would suggest you take the bible for what is says and understand through study. The reality of the myth of Good Friday and Easter will be revealed through this study.Thanks for the thoughts Dash. I hope you have read the thread through since no one is trying to prop up tradition.

Perhaps you will spend some time to show us how the Bible is true and without error by taking the four Gospel accounts of the events of the Passion and showing conclusively, without error, that they spanned Thursday to Sunday instead of Friday to Sunday. The arguement you present is that no matter what the Gospel accounts might suggest, they MUST indicate Thursday to Sunday. So take the accounts, all four of them, and show us. After all, it must be very evident.

Regarding the high sabbath day, every passover was followed by such a day. EVERY passover. It didn't just happen to be that week. The high sabbath could occur on the sabbath just as easily as on Friday. Now we can take a calandar and make it work out however we want. But I suggest to you your own advice:
I would suggest you take the bible for what is says and understand through study.Now if you don't think the scriptures have been studied in this thread, then please, offer it up.

God Bless!

dashby01
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:53 PM
Perhaps you will spend some time to show us how the Bible is true and without error by taking the four Gospel accounts of the events of the Passion and showing conclusively, without error, that they spanned Thursday to Sunday instead of Friday to Sunday.

No where in my post did I state that the Bible says Thursday to Sunday. And to debate such topics is fruitless.

Our Savior was crucified for our (my) sins and rose 3 days later. That is what is important.

-Dash

watchinginawe
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:55 PM
The Gospel of John offers:

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

It seems plain enough. That sabbath day, the seventh day of the week, was an high day. Some say this indicates that the high day must have been Friday and therefore Jesus died on a Thursday. Some suggest this sabbath day was on a Thursday and therefore Jesus died on a Wednesday. Still other suggest three consecutive sabbath days. Where is that indicated in the above? The straightforward reading of the text indicates that the high day fell on the seventh day sabbath that year. Where do these extra days come from? :dunno: If anything, the above scripture pinpoints exactly what day Jesus died. Friday.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:05 PM
No where in my post did I state that the Bible says Thursday to Sunday. And to debate such topics is fruitless.

Our Savior was crucified for our (my) sins and rose 3 days later. That is what is important.

-DashThe challenge stands Dash. Show by the scripture accounts that it was something besides Friday to Sunday then. Also, I didn't challenge you to a debate. I was asking you to back up your statement:
I would suggest you take the bible for what is says and understand through study.So, perhaps your comment was a little strong, indicating that others, such as myself, don't take the bible for what it says. I am fine if you want to take that back and stand on this post as your point. I agree, what is important is that our Saviour was crucified for our sins and rose the third day (or after three days, or in three days). That is the important thing here.

But to suggest a worldwide historical conspiracy of ~ 2000 years is not indicated by the scripures IMO. Perhaps that is why I am so passionate about this subject. I believe such arguements take away from what is important and demonstrated by the scriptures. It always seems offered as kind of a gnostic "the rest of the story" kind of thing. But when I study it out in the scriptures, I can't find the evidence.

Regarding the traditions, as I have offered before, it seems the tradition of a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection are completely consistent with the Gospel accounts. Part of the reasoning of celebrating our Lord's resurrection separate from the passover is to put the celebration on the actual day of the week in which He rose again. That would be Sunday. So, to observe the first day of the week as the day will neccesitate separation from the passover or we would be celebrating the resurrection of our Lord on varying days of the week.

God Bless!

Servant89
Mar 22nd 2008, 09:00 PM
The day of selecting the king was Palm Sunday (Dan 9:25, Neh 2, John 6:15, Zec 9:9).

The day of selecting the lamb for passover was also Palm Sunday, the 10th day of the month. On the 14th day of the month, the lamb was sacrificed (Thursday that year).

The day in Scriptures starts at sunset (ask any Jew). That is why the Scriptures calls it the evening and the day of the second day (Gen 1:8).

They wanted to bury Jesus quickly before sunset in order to be able to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread (a high Sabbath day mandated by Lev 23:4-8on day # 15, the Friday). If they get defiled by touching the dead, they could not celebrate the rest of the feast. In order to force them to bury Jesus quickly, God allowed them to touch dead bodies during Passover (Num 9:6-11). They had to bury him quickly because if Jesus body would had remained on the cross that night, the sacrifice would had failed, i.e., the curse, sin, and uncleaness placed on Jesus would have come back to defile the earth as stated in Deu 21:22-23. The feast of unleaven bread signifies the cleaning power that the blood of Jesus brought to this earth.

For us, a day that people do not work in it, is called a holyday. For Jews, it is called a Sabbath. That Friday was a holiday, a Sabbath day. But ignorant people interpreted it as a Saturday.

God did not mention anywhere that it would be 72 hours. God does not have to do business our way, we have to do business His way.
Jesus was buried:
Thursday during the day
Friday night and then Friday during the day
Saturday night and then Saturday during the day
Sunday night (he arose while yet it was still dark)

And that makes 3 days and 3 nights.

Jesus had to rise from the dead on the feast of the firstfruits, a feast that had to be celebrated Sunday morning (the morning after the Sabbath), see Lev 23:10-11. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

He had to resurrect Sunday morning (befopre sunrise) and the only way to be buried 3 days and 3 nights was to be buried on Thursday during the day.

Shalom.

valleybldr
Mar 22nd 2008, 09:12 PM
God did not mention anywhere that it would be 72 hours. God does not have to do business our way, we have to do business His way. Well, that sounds nice but we happen to disagree on what "His way" happens to be in this case. That does not make it "our way." We have allot of conflicting information and we do the best we can. I happen to think "3 days and three nights" = roughly or maybe exactly 72 hours and that He was was buried just prior to a High Sabbath and arose after the weekly Sabbath (rest/death) in the grave. Sunset +72 hours to another sunset. todd

Naphal
Mar 22nd 2008, 09:35 PM
From Matthew:

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,

19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

That seems pretty detailed to me. Not much vagueness in that.

It's vague about what the third day actually is and is completely silent on being entombed and for how long. Other verses add in these important details.





This seems pretty detailed to me. Not vague at all. These comments of Jesus are why some reckon Jesus' prophecies from His death, and not His burial.

Yes but you see that he doesn't mention his death only being crucified, and he also skips the entombment and jumps right to raising. I'm only showing that some details are here and some are found in other verses such as the "after three days" and "three days and nights". If someone only has two days and 3 nights or 3 days and two nights then there is a problem.



Second, we have concerning Jesus' prophesying on the matter three days and nights, after three days, on the third day, and in three days; all from Jesus. Should the Gospel events regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus be reconciled to any one of these options? Or should we take the events "as Gospel truth" ;) and discern Jesus' prophecy?

Scripture doesn't say "in three days" but "the third day". Your statement is more exact than the second which was said. But, I believe that all say the same thing. I don't need to ignore some in favor of others, or take it in faith and not worry about any details. They all say the same exact thing. It is how people define them is where they appear to be saying different things. The third day has to be the same as three days and nights passing or there is a conflict.

valleybldr
Mar 22nd 2008, 09:51 PM
It's vague about what the third day actually is and is completely silent on being entombed and for how long. Other verses add in these important details.

Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

Jonah 1:17 "Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."

He was put in tomb just prior to sunset so the count starts with a night.

todd

Naphal
Mar 22nd 2008, 10:00 PM
The day of selecting the king was Palm Sunday (Dan 9:25, Neh 2, John 6:15, Zec 9:9).

The day of selecting the lamb for passover was also Palm Sunday, the 10th day of the month. On the 14th day of the month, the lamb was sacrificed (Thursday that year).

The day in Scriptures starts at sunset (ask any Jew). That is why the Scriptures calls it the evening and the day of the second day (Gen 1:8).

They wanted to bury Jesus quickly before sunset in order to be able to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread (a high Sabbath day mandated by Lev 23:4-8on day # 15, the Friday). If they get defiled by touching the dead, they could not celebrate the rest of the feast. In order to force them to bury Jesus quickly, God allowed them to touch dead bodies during Passover (Num 9:6-11). They had to bury him quickly because if Jesus body would had remained on the cross that night, the sacrifice would had failed, i.e., the curse, sin, and uncleaness placed on Jesus would have come back to defile the earth as stated in Deu 21:22-23. The feast of unleaven bread signifies the cleaning power that the blood of Jesus brought to this earth.

For us, a day that people do not work in it, is called a holyday. For Jews, it is called a Sabbath. That Friday was a holiday, a Sabbath day. But ignorant people interpreted it as a Saturday.

God did not mention anywhere that it would be 72 hours. God does not have to do business our way, we have to do business His way.
Jesus was buried:
Thursday during the day
Friday night and then Friday during the day
Saturday night and then Saturday during the day
Sunday night (he arose while yet it was still dark)

And that makes 3 days and 3 nights.

Jesus had to rise from the dead on the feast of the firstfruits, a feast that had to be celebrated Sunday morning (the morning after the Sabbath), see Lev 23:10-11. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

He had to resurrect Sunday morning (befopre sunrise) and the only way to be buried 3 days and 3 nights was to be buried on Thursday during the day.

Shalom.

Except he died during the day but was buried at night so he wasn't buried during the day Thursday.

Naphal
Mar 22nd 2008, 10:06 PM
Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

Jonah 1:17 "Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."

He was put in tomb just prior to sunset so the count starts with a night.

todd

It was evening when someone first came and began the process of trying to get the body. How long that took isn't known but they wouldn't have simply handed Christ's body immediately over to a complete stranger. It would have taken awhile, not to mention checking if he was dead, which means he was still on the cross during this time, then removing from the cross, then moving the body to be received and then moving it again to the tomb. It would have been late evening by that time.

valleybldr
Mar 22nd 2008, 10:21 PM
It was evening when someone first came and began the process of trying to get the body. I believe He died on the stake shortly after 3 p.m. Wed. afternoon and was buried before sunset that evening. They were in a rush to buy the spices and prepare the body prior to the High Sabbath (no buying/no work) at sundown. todd

Alaska
Mar 22nd 2008, 10:37 PM
I believe He died on the stake shortly after 3 p.m. Wed. afternoon and was buried before sunset that evening. They were in a rush to buy the spices and prepare the body prior to the High Sabbath (no buying/no work) at sundown. todd

If it was Wednesday it would have been necessary to refer to the 4th day instead of the 3rd day since he had been killed. On Sunday as recorded in Luke, it is said that that day, Sunday, was the 3rd day since he had been killed:

Killed Thursday. Friday is the first day "since" or after he was killed, Saturday is the second, Sunday is the third in agreement with the clear statement in Luke 24.

By not counting Wednesday in the Wednesday model, Thursday is the first, Friday is the second, Saturday is the third and Sunday is the fourth day since he had been killed, which does NOT agree with the plain statement in Luke 24.
Wednesday's model is too far away to work in agreement with all the verses.
The Thursday model is just right.

dashby01
Mar 22nd 2008, 10:37 PM
The challenge stands Dash. Show by the scripture accounts that it was something besides Friday to Sunday then. Also, I didn't challenge you to a debate. I was asking you to back up your statement:So, perhaps your comment was a little strong, indicating that others, such as myself, don't take the bible for what it says. I am fine if you want to take that back and stand on this post as your point. I agree, what is important is that our Saviour was crucified for our sins and rose the third day (or after three days, or in three days). That is the important thing here.

But to suggest a worldwide historical conspiracy of ~ 2000 years is not indicated by the scripures IMO. Perhaps that is why I am so passionate about this subject. I believe such arguements take away from what is important and demonstrated by the scriptures. It always seems offered as kind of a gnostic "the rest of the story" kind of thing. But when I study it out in the scriptures, I can't find the evidence.

Regarding the traditions, as I have offered before, it seems the tradition of a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection are completely consistent with the Gospel accounts. Part of the reasoning of celebrating our Lord's resurrection separate from the passover is to put the celebration on the actual day of the week in which He rose again. That would be Sunday. So, to observe the first day of the week as the day will neccesitate separation from the passover or we would be celebrating the resurrection of our Lord on varying days of the week.

God Bless!

Why are you challanging me to something I never stated. If you read my posts you will find that I never stated what you are accussing me of. PLease understand that your spirit to prove your point at the expense of "challanging" someone to something they did not say is beyond me.

If appears that the reason for his sacrifice is lost in the mix of your argument.

Peace be with you.

-Dash

Alaska
Mar 22nd 2008, 10:41 PM
The day of selecting the king was Palm Sunday (Dan 9:25, Neh 2, John 6:15, Zec 9:9).

The day of selecting the lamb for passover was also Palm Sunday, the 10th day of the month. On the 14th day of the month, the lamb was sacrificed (Thursday that year).

The day in Scriptures starts at sunset (ask any Jew). That is why the Scriptures calls it the evening and the day of the second day (Gen 1:8).

They wanted to bury Jesus quickly before sunset in order to be able to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread (a high Sabbath day mandated by Lev 23:4-8on day # 15, the Friday). If they get defiled by touching the dead, they could not celebrate the rest of the feast. In order to force them to bury Jesus quickly, God allowed them to touch dead bodies during Passover (Num 9:6-11). They had to bury him quickly because if Jesus body would had remained on the cross that night, the sacrifice would had failed, i.e., the curse, sin, and uncleaness placed on Jesus would have come back to defile the earth as stated in Deu 21:22-23. The feast of unleaven bread signifies the cleaning power that the blood of Jesus brought to this earth.

For us, a day that people do not work in it, is called a holyday. For Jews, it is called a Sabbath. That Friday was a holiday, a Sabbath day. But ignorant people interpreted it as a Saturday.

God did not mention anywhere that it would be 72 hours. God does not have to do business our way, we have to do business His way.
Jesus was buried:
Thursday during the day
Friday night and then Friday during the day
Saturday night and then Saturday during the day
Sunday night (he arose while yet it was still dark)

And that makes 3 days and 3 nights.

Jesus had to rise from the dead on the feast of the firstfruits, a feast that had to be celebrated Sunday morning (the morning after the Sabbath), see Lev 23:10-11. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

He had to resurrect Sunday morning (befopre sunrise) and the only way to be buried 3 days and 3 nights was to be buried on Thursday during the day.

Shalom.

Thank you Brother.

valleybldr
Mar 22nd 2008, 10:48 PM
If it was Wednesday it would have been necessary to refer to the 4th day instead of the 3rd day since he had been killed. On Sunday as recorded in Luke, it is said that that day, Sunday, was the 3rd day since he had been killed: Where? Luke 24 says He had already risen by Sunday sunrise. Sunday is not in the count. According to modern rendering the count, proof of Jesus' Messiahship, is Wed night, Thursday, Thursday night, Friday, Friday night, Sabbath day. The Jewish day starts at sunset but the count is the same regardless of the label you put on the time periods. "Three days and three nights." todd

Alaska
Mar 22nd 2008, 11:20 PM
Where? Luke 24 says He had already risen by Sunday sunrise. Sunday is not in the count. According to modern rendering that would be Wed night, Thursday, Thursday night, Friday, Friday night, Sabbath day. The Jewsih day starts at sunset but the count is the same regardless of the label you put on the time periods. "Three Days and three nights." todd

Sunday is very much in the count with regard to the perspective given in Luke 24. This is because on that day, Sunday, they made the pronouncement that that day, Sunday, was the 3rd day since he had been killed.

Notice verse 1, 13 and 21. The statement made in verse 21 was made on Sunday. Clearly, and without controversy, Sunday was the 3rd and not the 4th day since he was killed.
Luke 24:
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8 And they remembered his words,
9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

It is impossible to get three days since he was killed on Wednesday and end up on Sunday. It was Sunday when the above statement in verse 21 was made.
If he was killed on Wednesday, then counting the time from "since" he was killed we will not count Wednesday. We will say that since Wednesday, Thursday is the 1st day since he was killed, Friday is the 2nd and Saturday is the 3rd day since he was killed.

So was it that the men who saw Jesus at Emmaus were confused and stressed so that they counted wrong? Or should we simply accept a competent reflection from Sundays' perspective of what happened?
The Holy Spirit provided this perspective as a means for us to understand this easily understandable sequence of events.

valleybldr
Mar 22nd 2008, 11:28 PM
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Got it. Verse 21 calls it "the third day." thanks, todd

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 02:41 AM
Scripture doesn't say "in three days" but "the third day".Just for the record:

John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 02:50 AM
Sunday is very much in the count with regard to the perspective given in Luke 24. This is because on that day, Sunday, they made the pronouncement that that day, Sunday, was the 3rd day since he had been killed.

Notice verse 1, 13 and 21. The statement made in verse 21 was made on Sunday. Clearly, and without controversy, Sunday was the 3rd and not the 4th day since he was killed.
Luke 24:
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.Agreed. Jesus arose on Sunday, the 3rd day since he had been killed.

Knowing that the scriptures weren't written in Chapters, we can just go back a few verses in the Gospel account here from what you offered to see how the three days are indicated.

Luke 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Friday, Saturday, Sunday. On the third day.

God Bless!

diffangle
Mar 23rd 2008, 03:06 AM
Friday, Saturday, Sunday. On the third day.


Friday night, Saturday night... where's the third night?

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 03:08 AM
Why are you challanging me to something I never stated. If you read my posts you will find that I never stated what you are accussing me of. PLease understand that your spirit to prove your point at the expense of "challanging" someone to something they did not say is beyond me.

If appears that the reason for his sacrifice is lost in the mix of your argument.

Peace be with you.

-DashDash, earlier in the thread you stated this:
So if you take what the bible says to be truth and without error, then instead of trying to make up excuses or ways to make this traddition of man regarding Good Friday and Easter, I would suggest you take the bible for what is says and understand through study. The reality of the myth of Good Friday and Easter will be revealed through this study.Now, perhaps I got you wrong. Since we weren't discussing the "traditions of man" or the "myths of Good Friday and Easter", I assumed your posts meant to offer that Jesus didn't die on Friday. Since I would seemingly be guilty of accusing you of this:
The challenge stands Dash. Show by the scripture accounts that it was something besides Friday to Sunday then.Then I assume you are stating that you have not offered which day Jesus died on, and that your comments were offered kind of in an off topic way.

If I had it wrong, then yes, an apology is owed to you. Please accept mine.

Do you have anything to offer on the subject? The name of the thread is: "Jesus died on Thursday, not Friday". What day do you think Jesus died on?

Now, if you believe that the thought that Jesus died on a Friday is simply a tradition of man, then I encourage you to read through my posts in the thread as I have offered much scripture on the subject.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 03:15 AM
Friday night, Saturday night... where's the third night?diff, I am going to have to ask you to read the posts of mine further up in the thread to get the full context. I will offer this though.

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

A clear prophecy is made in v.22. Now, later in Luke, we have this from Jesus.

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Looking at v.32 above, Jesus gives an example of how "the third day" might be reckoned. Jesus says today, then tomorrow, then the third day. It is plain as day. Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

God Bless!

diffangle
Mar 23rd 2008, 03:22 AM
diff, I am going to have to ask you to read the posts of mine further up in the thread to get the full context. I will offer this though.

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

A clear prophecy is made in v.22. Now, later in Luke, we have this from Jesus.

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Looking at v.32 above, Jesus gives an example of how "the third day" might be reckoned. Jesus says today, then tomorrow, then the third day. It is plain as day. Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

God Bless!
Nights are mentioned in the verse below. Are you saying that He was only in the tomb two nights? :confused

Mat 12:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=12&verse=40&version=kjv#40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 23rd 2008, 03:31 AM
Nights are mentioned in the verse below. Are you saying that He was only in the tomb two nights? :confused

Mat 12:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=12&verse=40&version=kjv#40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Would you look over this (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1577413&postcount=68) post of mine and comment? Thanks! - Lk.11

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 03:36 AM
Nights are mentioned in the verse below. Are you saying that He was only in the tomb two nights? :confused

Mat 12:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=12&verse=40&version=kjv#40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Personally, I think the Gospel accounts stand on their own. They are consistent and reading them through, it shouldn't shock someone to conclude that Jesus was only in the tomb for about 36 hours. I have offered before in the thread, if the above must be reconciled, along with the other prophecies offered by Jesus of in three days, on the third day, and after three days, then I would have to say that Jonah was in the whale's belly for 36 hours.

I do believe all of the references concerning the third day (three days and three nights, in three days, after three days) are consistent. What did they mean though?

There seem to be two avenues of thought on this. Use the Jonah reference that you offer and reckon the Gospel accounts of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as incomplete, or sketchy, or really indicating that there was a two day sabbath rest, or even three sabbath days by some reckoning.

The other avenue, which I hold to, is to see that the scriptures indicate a Friday crucifixion and burial, and a Sunday resurrection. Reading the accounts literally give us a consistent viewpoint on the "third day" prophecies offered by Jesus. They consistently clarify what Jesus meant.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 03:44 AM
Nights are mentioned in the verse below. Are you saying that He was only in the tomb two nights? :confused

Mat 12:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=12&verse=40&version=kjv#40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Also, I wanted to offer this again:

From Matthew:

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,

19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

From Mark:

Mark 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

These verses are why some reckon Jesus' prophecies from His death, and not His burial. Also, the destroy the temple and build it back also fits reckoning from His death. Some even go so far as to reckon the third day from "and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests", which I think is perfectly all right too, looking at the prophecies. This also works with v.18 from Matthew above.

So, including from the time that Jesus was betrayed and delivered, we have Friday night, Friday day, Saturday night, Saturday day, Sunday night, Sunday day.

Just another way of looking at it. Personally, I have no reason to have to make it work out that way though.

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 05:12 AM
I believe He died on the stake shortly after 3 p.m. Wed. afternoon and was buried before sunset that evening. They were in a rush to buy the spices and prepare the body prior to the High Sabbath (no buying/no work) at sundown. todd

If this was a dif Sabbath than the 7th day Sabbath then it would have been a little different. In the OT there is no work at all done on the 7th day Sabbath, Saturdays, but on other Sabbaths that were on other days it was often no servile work as opposed to no work at all. Seems that if someone died and needed to be buried on these other Sabbaths that the no work at all type of Saturday Sabbath would not apply. Besides, did they leave a body out all day long if someone died on a Saturday?

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 05:21 AM
Agreed. Jesus arose on Sunday, the 3rd day since he had been killed.

Just curious....how do you know he rose on Sunday? Surely when people went there just before daybreak he wasn't there but that doesn't tell us when he rose just that he wasn't there anymore at that time.

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 05:34 AM
So, including from the time that Jesus was betrayed and delivered, we have Friday night, Friday day, Saturday night, Saturday day, Sunday night, Sunday day.


The problem with this is that you have to admit that Jesus was crucified on Thursday day, died on Thursday day and was buried at night when it became Friday night, around 6pm or whenever it got dark.

That would make the entire scenario a Thursday to Sunday event, not a Friday to Sunday event as I believe you propose since you are trying to have even the betrayal and delivering of Jesus on a Friday which is impossible. It occurred on Thursday and he was only buried on Friday.

Wednesday he is betrayed, when it was dark it was Thursday at night and he was arrested and judged and crucified through Thursday and died towards the end of Thursday and when it was almost Friday his body was claimed and prepared and buried when it was the first part of Friday, at night which was the end of that long thursday. So he was in the tomb all of Friday night, Friday day, Saturday night, Saturday day, Sunday night, and assumeably Sunday when the sun came up.

The only issue with that is this:


John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.


This appears to rule out Jesus being in the tomb for any of Sunday day which only leaves three nights and two days in the tomb and there must be three days.

valleybldr
Mar 23rd 2008, 08:39 AM
Every viewpoint has pieces that don't fit. The question is which pieces fit worse then the others. As I look at a Thursday scenario, here is something I've pasted together for the Luke 24:21 dilemma from the Wednesday crucifixion viewpoint.

There is an underlying Hebrew idiom that may means something closer to "it's been three whole days since" (and we are now in the fourth day). From a Hebrew idiom we have it recording in GK.

"To-day is the third day" (τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει σήμερον). The best texts omit to-day. The phrase forms an idiom which cannot be neatly rendered. Literally it is, “He (Christ) is passing (ἄγει) this day as the third.” Rev., It is now the third day since, etc. Vincent, M. R. (2002). Word studies in the New Testament (1:iii-435). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Vs 21 is reference back to verse 7 and earlier references in the book of Luke. The disciples knew that he was to be risen by the third day, but they had not seen him and were discouraged, in spite of the empty tomb. Their point is "it's been 3 days, and yet, nothing!"

If we want to look at it as having a chronological purpose, then the crucifixion would have been Thursday. Was Luke writing in this section for that purpose of establishing a chronology?

Luke 24:21"But <1161> we <2249> trusted <1679> (5707) that <3754> it had been <2076> (5748) he <846> which should <3195> (5723) have redeemed <3084> (5733) Israel <2474>: and <235> beside <1065> <4862> all <3956> this <5125>, to day <4594> is <71> (5719) the <5026> third <5154> day <2250> since <575> <3739> these things <5023> were done <1096> (5633)."

It’s the old Clintonian defining of "is.” Here the word "is" Strong's 71 (Gk "ago"). It does not mean "is". It means "bring" or "lead".` The other word to note is "since" (Gk "apo") which means "from" or "out of".

Thus "This very day, lead's from the third day" or follows after the third day. They were emphasising that this was the day to watch, "after these things were done." Which things were done? The three days were done. This is the day arising after the three days.

todd and co.

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 10:31 AM
Just curious....how do you know he rose on Sunday? Surely when people went there just before daybreak he wasn't there but that doesn't tell us when he rose just that he wasn't there anymore at that time.We have the events of Sunday morning recorded in the Gospels. Of course, Jesus could have rose just a few minutes after He was buried. But Sunday morning is when the earthquake occurred, the angel appeared, and the empty tomb was discovered. Plus, we have this as well:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This is the first account of Jesus appearing after His resurrection. This happened just after the discovery of the empty tomb Sunday morning. For me, I beleive the Gospel accounts are very suggestive that Jesus rose again the third day, which would have been Sunday.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 10:43 AM
The problem with this is that you have to admit that Jesus was crucified on Thursday day, died on Thursday day and was buried at night when it became Friday night, around 6pm or whenever it got dark.

That would make the entire scenario a Thursday to Sunday event, not a Friday to Sunday event as I believe you propose since you are trying to have even the betrayal and delivering of Jesus on a Friday which is impossible. It occurred on Thursday and he was only buried on Friday.I can see the confusion, but remember yourself how you taught the Jewish reckoning of days, night and day. So when I say Friday night, that would be the day that begins on our Thursday night at 6:00 pm. That is the Jewish day beginning that Jesus was crucified on. Here it is laid out (from memory, cut me some slack if I get some wrong):

Thursday after 6:00 pm, when the hour came (Jewish Friday night):

The last supper
The prayer in Gethsemane
The betrayal and Jesus arrested
Peter denying Christ thrice through the night
The third hour judgement and crucifixion
The sixth hour on the CrossThat takes us to our Friday, noon (Jewish Friday 6th hour)

The 9th hour Jesus dies
Joseph begs the body
Jesus laid in the tomb
The women behold where Jesus laid
The women buy spices (or prepare)
The sabbath comesThat takes us to our Friday, 6:00 pm (Jewish Saturday, the sabbath)

The Jews demand the grave watched (just after 6 pm)
The women rest the sabbath according to the commandmentThen we have our Saturday, during the day until 6:00 pm (Jewish Saturday, the sabbath)

The women rest the sabbath according to the commandmentThen we have the events of Sunday morning (Jewish Sunday morning)

So night, day. Friday night, Friday day. Then Saturday night, Saturday day. Then Sunday night, and then Sunday morning.

God Bless!

OldChurchGuy
Mar 23rd 2008, 10:59 AM
. On this particular year, Passover fell on a Thursday; Friday the 15th was the special sabbath and Saturday was the normal sabbath. L.T.J.









This question may have already been asked so forgive me if I am repeating another post. I didn't see the question below but admit that I did not read all of the posts, either.

What year was it? I didn't realize anyone had determined the exact year of Jesus' crucifixion.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

valleybldr
Mar 23rd 2008, 11:12 AM
What year was it? I didn't realize anyone had determined the exact year of Jesus' crucifixion.


It depends on which scenerio you embrace. The Wednesday/Thursday sunset to Saturday/Sunday sunset position often uses April 25, 31 AD. You would have to take a chart like biblicalholidays.com/images/lastweek2.jpg and put it on a year close to when we know Jesus died. See http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/generate.html. Also Goggle "possible dates for jesus crucifixion" and take your pick. You must also remember that the Hebrew calendar was observable at this time, not calculated. I don't know who does or does not take this into account. I would think most calendars are going to give you the calculated moon phases which is a moot point in the first century. todd

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 12:42 PM
We have the events of Sunday morning recorded in the Gospels. Of course, Jesus could have rose just a few minutes after He was buried.

Not if he was the Son of God and the Messiah else the prophecies would be wrong.

I see nothing in the gospels that show him rising on Sunday. Seems to me none of them say exactly when he rose so the best we have is to figure out how much time he was supposed to remain there and go with that.



But Sunday morning is when the earthquake occurred, the angel appeared, and the empty tomb was discovered.

That doesn't say he rose during those events. Even if he did, it was still dark so we can't count any day time of Sunday as part of his time in the tomb.





Plus, we have this as well:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This is the first account of Jesus appearing after His resurrection. This happened just after the discovery of the empty tomb Sunday morning. For me, I beleive the Gospel accounts are very suggestive that Jesus rose again the third day, which would have been Sunday.



Perhaps on Sunday, but during the night not during the day.

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 12:50 PM
That takes us to our Friday, noon (Jewish Friday 6th hour)

The 9th hour Jesus dies
Joseph begs the body
Jesus laid in the tomb
The women behold where Jesus laid
The women buy spices (or prepare)
The sabbath comes

Joseph didn't arrive for the body until evening, not noon. It was after that sometime that Jesus was entombed.




Then we have the events of Sunday morning (Jewish Sunday morning)

So night, day. Friday night, Friday day. Then Saturday night, Saturday day. Then Sunday night, and then Sunday morning.



There is no Sunday morning as in daytime though. It was Sunday night (before the sun rose for Sunday day) and he was already gone so Sunday day can't be counted.

All you have is Friday night, Friday day. Then Saturday night, Saturday day. Then Sunday night which means 3 nights and two days in the tomb, one day/day light period short of the prophecy, and I think even actually short another period because you have him buried after noon sometime early during the day and that's not when scripture describes it so you have to loose a day there too so you only have two days and two nights. if you backed up one whole 24 hour period then you could have 3 days and three nights with no issues.

valleybldr
Mar 23rd 2008, 12:56 PM
These days not only fulfilled the Jewish feast days of Passover (His death), Unleavened Bread (His Sabbath rest in the tomb), and Firstfruits (His resurrection), but are also in alignment with the seven creation days. On the sixth day of the week (Friday; Passover), Pilot introduced Jesus to the crowd, exclaiming, "Behold the Man!" (John 19:5) - the sixth day being the creation of man (Gen. 1:26-31; 2:7-25). Then on the seventh day of the week (Saturday; Unleavened Bread), Jesus laid in the tomb all day, doing "no customary work" (Lev. 23:7), but "rested from all His work" (Gen. 2:3). And on the first day of the week, the day of the new creation, Jesus rose again, and He even rose early in the morning!

Interesting. Do you have any Christological significance for the other days of creation? BTW, offering the omer of barley was not a Sabbath/Holy Day. Not that it matters in this discussion, but I see plenty of people who insert the Omer Offering as "Feast of Firstfruits" and delete the "Eighth Day of Assembly." It was a feast in that they could finally eat barley products but it's not one of the big 7 with a prohibition against work and special animal sacrifices. todd

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 01:11 PM
On the sixth day of the week (Friday; Passover), Pilot introduced Jesus to the crowd, exclaiming, "Behold the Man!" (John 19:5) - the sixth day being the creation of man (Gen. 1:26-31;

It would seem this would match better since this shows man accused and judged of a crime and the above is when Jesus was being accused not to mention the words "behold, the man" is used


Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

John 19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 01:19 PM
All you have is Friday night, Friday day. Then Saturday night, Saturday day. Then Sunday night which means 3 nights and two days in the tomb, one day/day light period short of the prophecy, and I think even actually short another period because you have him buried after noon sometime early during the day and that's not when scripture describes it so you have to loose a day there too so you only have two days and two nights. if you backed up one whole 24 hour period then you could have 3 days and three nights with no issues.As we have with all of the scriptures regarding these actual events, there are differing words to be considered. Consider:

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

This places the account at dawn, at the beginning of day.

From Mark:

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

This places the account at the rising of the sun when they arrived at the sepulchre.

From Luke:

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Very early in the morning, that is, after night.

Focusing on the Matthew account for a moment, we have this at Jesus' death:

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And then, Sunday morning, what I believe the scriptures indicate for when Jesus rose again bodily, leaving the tomb empty:

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.


So I believe the scriptures indicate that the earthquakes are bookends to Jesus' death and resurrection.

Now concerning when and what day, we also have the pronouncement of the angel in Matthew:

Matthew 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Now, the angel might have been suggesting that Jesus rose the previous day, but that doesn't seem plausible to me.

And yes, I agree that Jesus rose the third day. But when someone suggests that the Bible doesn't really say when He arose, then the possible time period for Jesus' resurrection begins anytime after His burial. For me, as I have been consistent in this thread, I am very comfortable that the scriptures indicate the third day, being Sunday, for Jesus' resurrection.

God Bless!

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 01:43 PM
As we have with all of the scriptures regarding these actual events, there are differing words to be considered. Consider:

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

This places the account at dawn, at the beginning of day.

It doesn't say that. It says it "began to dawn toward", which is not "it was dawn"

To dawn toward something means to approach it. It was approaching the day of Sunday but it wasn't there yet as we learn elsewhere that it was still dark.





From Mark:

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

This places the account at the rising of the sun when they arrived at the sepulchre.



You say "at the rising of the sun" but none of those words are found in that scripture.

4404
4404 proi {pro-ee'}
from 4253;; adv
AV - in the morning 5, early in the morning 2, early 2, morning 1; 10
1) in the morning, early
2) the fourth watch of the night, from 3 o'clock in the morning
until 6 o'clock approximately


This coupled with the "very" means it was about 3am, which is not dawn and not daylight or day. It was still dark, still night. They wanted to be there before daylight came.

Taking these with this:


John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.


4653
4653 skotia {skot-ee'-ah}
from 4655; TDNT - 7:423,1049; n f
AV - darkness 14, dark 2; 16
1) darkness
2) the darkness due to want of light
3) metaph. used of ignorance of divine things, and its associated
wickedness, and the resultant misery in hell


means it was not yet light out, about 3am.




Focusing on the Matthew account for a moment, we have this at Jesus' death:

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And then, Sunday morning, what I believe the scriptures indicate for when Jesus rose again bodily, leaving the tomb empty:



Thats a matter of belief I guess. It doesn't specify anything. It was dark on Sunday and he was not there. The earthquake could have been the appearance of the angel and his using power to roll the stone away. Jesus could have been gone hours before that.


2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

This more implies the quake is related to the angels presence.

A common substitute for the word for is because:

2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: BECAUSE the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.


So I believe the scriptures indicate that the earthquakes are bookends to Jesus' death and resurrection.

It paints a nice picture but that doesn't really mean anything solid as far as documentation.





Now concerning when and what day, we also have the pronouncement of the angel in Matthew:

Matthew 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Now, the angel might have been suggesting that Jesus rose the previous day, but that doesn't seem plausible to me.



No it's not because Jesus rose on Sunday night, the same day which is why the angel says he has risen past tense but doesn't imply he rose on Saturday.



And yes, I agree that Jesus rose the third day. But when someone suggests that the Bible doesn't really say when He arose, then the possible time period for Jesus' resurrection begins anytime after His burial.

Not when you take the scriptures that say 3 days and nights had to pass first. But figuring out when exactly is harder. You believe it was Sunday during the day, I believe it happened before that when it was yet dark.


For me, as I have been consistent in this thread, I am very comfortable that the scriptures indicate the third day, being Sunday, for Jesus' resurrection.

When on Sunday is the newest issue.

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 01:59 PM
When on Sunday is the newest issue.Yes, it is interesting looking at the scriptures.

But, I want to remind you that I am a "the third day" believer. Therefore, I do not count days and nights, etc. I was just offering a reckoning from Jesus' betrayal forward from the scriptures I offered.

So for me, rising again the third day, is: Friday death, Saturday sabbath, Sunday resurrection: Sunday being the third day. While I believe that Jesus rose in the morning, I am fine with the times earlier that you suggest.

I still like the words of Jesus on what constitutes "the third day":

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

So, reckoning from a Friday crucifixion to the third day, we can insert those days with the above reckoning of Jesus' saying: today (Friday), tomorrow (Saturday), and the third day (Sunday). The third day.

God Bless!

diffangle
Mar 23rd 2008, 02:03 PM
Would you look over this (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1577413&postcount=68) post of mine and comment? Thanks! - Lk.11


The *one* time where Jesus said "three days and three nights" (Matt. 12:40) was when He had made the account of Jonah in the belly of the big fish (Jonah 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah%201:17&version=50)) to be a prophetic picture of His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection. We know this because He calls Himself "a greater than Jonah", and says that Nineveh will condemn that generation - Jonah didn't preach to Nineveh until *after* the fish vomited him out. The sign of Jonah was that the pagan Gentiles would repent and be spared judgment, while the Jews largely would not. As I said before, it's not a false prophesy - it's so prophetically accurate that many miss it - and it's not that He couldn't count, for as I pointed out, it aligns itself perfectly with the creation days *and* the feast days. No - it must have been a figure of speech; a way of speaking that the people listening would understand what exactly He was telling them if they would just chew over His words.

Lk.11

Mat 12:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=12&verse=40&version=kjv#40)For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The verse, imo, makes it clear that the time spent in the tomb would be three days and three nights. Honestly, I can't decide on whether it was wed. or thurs. when He was crucified but I cannot reckon a fri. crucifixtion... it's just way too short.

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 02:09 PM
Yes, it is interesting looking at the scriptures.

But, I want to remind you that I am a "the third day" believer. Therefore, I do not count days and nights, etc.

So you don't believe in the scripture that says Christ would be in the earth/tomb for three days and three nights? I am an all scripture believer myself and believe they all mean the same thing, discounting none of them.



So for me, rising again the third day, is: Friday death, Saturday sabbath, Sunday resurrection: Sunday being the third day. While I believe that Jesus rose in the morning, I am fine with the times earlier that you suggest.

If we only has the third day prophecies I think this would be fine but one or two verses jam that model up to a stand still :(


I still like the words of Jesus on what constitutes "the third day":



Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

So, reckoning from a Friday crucifixion to the third day, we can insert those days with the above reckoning of Jesus' saying: today (Friday), tomorrow (Saturday), and the third day (Sunday). The third day.


Still, three days and three nights doesn't fit into this simplified third day concept so it doesn't really apply. No one is saying one, two and three days isn't three days, but when you have to have three nights with three daylight periods then we have to be much more exact. I used to be a 72 hour guy but I see that is probably flawed but there has to be partials of each in a row to fit what Jesus said.

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2008, 02:32 PM
So you don't believe in the scripture that says Christ would be in the earth/tomb for three days and three nights? I am an all scripture believer myself and believe they all mean the same thing, discounting none of them.Naphal, I have offered many posts on this thread, and by weight of scripture and belief in them, I guess I am heavyweight by now. Since many of my posts have been addressed to you, I can only assume that you haven't read them through if you believe I am discounting scripture or have not addressed the issues. :rolleyes:

I am going to leave the topic now. I have enjoyed the discussion and feel my posts are worthy to stand as they are since it is scripture which I offer and believe in.

God Bless!

Servant89
Mar 23rd 2008, 07:13 PM
Mark 11 states Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey (Palm Sunday)
Mark 11:12 states on the following Monday he cursed the fig tree (a type of Israel, see Hos 9:10).
Mark 11:19-20 states on the next day (Tuesday) they saw the fig tree withered and dead and many things were said that Tuesday included in the next two chapters.
Mark 14:1 states that the passover feast was two days after that day (two days after Tuesday, it is Thursday).

The Jews had to bury Jesus before sunset in order to stay clean for the feast of the unleaved bread (Lev 23:4-10) which starts at sunset and that is why they were in a hurry and buried him before sunset on Thursday (John 19:31).

There is one truth, and every thing else, is a lie.

Shalom.

valleybldr
Mar 23rd 2008, 07:50 PM
There is one truth, and every thing else, is a lie. Until we meet "Truth" face to face we will do the best we can with what we have. thanks, todd

Naphal
Mar 23rd 2008, 10:35 PM
Mark 11 states Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey (Palm Sunday)
Mark 11:12 states on the following Monday he cursed the fig tree (a type of Israel, see Hos 9:10).
Mark 11:19-20 states on the next day (Tuesday) they saw the fig tree withered and dead and many things were said that Tuesday included in the next two chapters.
Mark 14:1 states that the passover feast was two days after that day (two days after Tuesday, it is Thursday).

The Jews had to bury Jesus before sunset in order to stay clean for the feast of the unleaved bread (Lev 23:4-10) which starts at sunset and that is why they were in a hurry and buried him before sunset on Thursday (John 19:31).


Yet Joseph came at evening to get Jesus' body and it was an unknown time later that he received the body. I don't see how it's possible that he was entombed before sunset as it was probably already sunset when Joseph first arrived.

Alaska
Mar 25th 2008, 12:26 AM
Agreed. Jesus arose on Sunday, the 3rd day since he had been killed.

Knowing that the scriptures weren't written in Chapters, we can just go back a few verses in the Gospel account here from what you offered to see how the three days are indicated.

Luke 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Friday, Saturday, Sunday. On the third day.

God Bless!

You obviously have not read the OP or have decided to ignore the biblical fact that after the passover every year the following day was a special sabbath day regardless of what day of the week it fell on. Passover was always on the 14th. The following day was ALWAYS a Sabbath. They had to rest on that special Sabbath according to the commandment. (Verse 56 above).

Does your birthday which is set on a fixed date always fall on the same day of the week every year?

So likewise the 15th day of the month Abib would fall on different days of the week from year to year.
That year, the 14th was on a Thursday. Friday was the special Sabbath, Saturday was the normal Sabbath and Sunday was the day he rose early.
Your model has at most 2 nights and 2 days of Him being in the heart of the earth. Jesus by that model prophesied falsely.

The best you can do is claim the phrase "on the 3rd day", which is understandable, but Jesus said more than that such as "after 3 days" and that he would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.
The Thursday model, which respects the fact that there were more than just the Saturday Sabbaths, accomodates all of the phrases Jesus made with regard to his time in the heart of the earth.

Notice in verse 1 of chapter 24 above: it indicates what day they came. It does not say "the next day, Sunday". You have interpreted, "Now upon the first day of the week," to mean that the very next day after their obedience to rest on that particular Sabbath was Sunday.

But I know, "the old wine is better'. We can agree to disagree.
But you can at least make the claim that that year the 15th happened to fall on Saturday making that Saturday a kind of double Sabbath, which of course would happen every once in a while.
Can we at least get out of you that the day following the Passover was a Sabbath regardless of what day of the week it fell on?
So are we correct to assume that you acknowledge that the 15th was always a special Sabbath and that that year the special Sabbath happened to fall on Saturday?

amazzin
Mar 25th 2008, 12:54 AM
Jesus Died on Thursday, Not Friday

We are informed by the Holy Scriptures that Jesus rose from the dead very early on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Since Jesus made it very plain that he was to be in the heart of the earth (dead and buried) for three days and three nights, (Matt. 12:40) let us now count the days and nights from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning to see if it works. First the nights: Friday night and Saturday night. He rose early Sunday so there is no way to get any more than these two nights. Now let us count the days: From late Friday afternoon there is only Saturday's full daylight period to count. By this, he would have risen on the second day. So here, we have only two nights and he is risen on the second day. This is not what Jesus emphatically prophesied. Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights. Jesus confidently assured his apostles that he was to be in the heart of the earth for the same length of time. By accepting that Jesus died on Friday, we must contradict the words of Him who had power to lay down his life and had power to take it again (John 10:17,18).
Obviously, the idea that He died on Friday doesn’t work. There is a day missing. What happened?
The reason why it is believed that He died on Friday is because the scriptures plainly tell us that a sabbath day immediately followed his death. It is precisely at this point where the error occurred. It is assumed that the sabbath following his death was a normal sabbath day (Saturday). However, the Scriptures clearly reveal that the day following Passover was always a special sabbath (rest day) that would fall on different days of the week from year to year because Passover was set on a fixed date.
On the fourteenth day of the first month (Abib), Jesus ate the Passover (the last supper) with his apostles in accordance with the rules given by Moses. All the Jews observed these laws. This meal is eaten after the sun goes down which is the very beginning of the Jewish twenty-four hour "day". (We reckon our days from midnight to midnight but the Jews reckon from sundown to sundown.) So, before the sun went down again, Jesus had been apprehended, tried, crucified and laid in the tomb. (The Lamb of God died on Passover day, see 1 Cor. 5:7.) But remember, they were urgent to get his body in the tomb before the sun went down because that coming day (which began at sundown) was a sabbath day. That fifteenth day of the month was a sabbath day every single year no matter what day of the week it happened to fall on. On this particular year, Passover fell on a Thursday; Friday the 15th was the special sabbath and Saturday was the normal sabbath. So using this model, let us again count the nights first: Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night. Now let us count the days: Friday's daylight and Saturday's daylight. He was seen alive on Sunday, the third daylight after he was killed.
By this, we see that by the time the sun rose Sunday morning, the third twenty-four hour Jewish day since Jesus died (sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday) was already about half way through. If someone includes Thursday (sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday) when counting the 24 hour days (since that is the day in which he was buried) then it is reasonable to say that he arose "after three days". On the other hand, if someone begins counting from after sundown (which is more commonly done since he was laid in the tomb just prior to sundown on Thursday) then it is also correct to say that he rose "in three days" or "on the third day”.
Whether we focus on this 24 hour aspect or on the distinction between daytime and night time periods, the fact remains that all three night time periods are accounted for if we accept that the sabbath following his death was not a normal Saturday sabbath. The three nights, which Jesus specified, (Matt. 12:40) cannot be accounted for by the Good Friday model. Also, the Good Friday doctrine cannot accommodate the phrase “after three days”, which is found in Mark 8:31 and Matt. 27:63,64
Why, you say, is this important? By this very practical and proven understanding of how the Jews kept the Passover, we need no longer imply, by conceding to the Good Friday doctrine, that Jesus was not in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Ignorantly sowing doubt in the hearts of others about the dependability of God's Word is not something that someone who has the love of God wants to do. There is no way anyone is going to get three days and three nights from Friday evening to Sunday morning. Uncertainty and doubt is the natural effect in the hearts of those who have read Jesus' prophesy that he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights but who are then misinformed that he died on Friday. Those who have a zeal to defend the preserved written Word and to oppose error, will be blessed by the knowledge that the sabbath day immediately following the Passover was not a normal sabbath but a special sabbath that occurred every year on a set date and which could fall on any day of the week. This accounts for that missing day.
All of the New Testament references fit comfortably into this model. They are listed below. After these, you will find the Old Testament references that verify that the fifteenth of that month was in fact a "high day".
Matt 12:40 Matt 16:21 Matt 17:23 Matt 20:19 Matt 27:63,64 Mark 8:31 Mark 9:31 Mark 10:34 Mark 14:58 Mark 15:29 Luke 18:33 Luke 24:7 Luke 24:46 John 2:19 John 2:20,21 Acts 10:40 1 Cor. 15:4
Lev 23:2-8 Numbers 28:16-19,25 Exodus 12:15-16
Exodus 12:17 Numbers 33:3 Exodus 12:42
This is irrefutable evidence that the fifteenth day of the first month was set aside as a holy convocation (sabbath). It was a day to be remembered because that was the day the children of Israel came out of Egypt.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. See also Luke 24:52-54 Mark 15:42,43 Matt. 27:62
So the answer was in the Scriptures all along: "that sabbath day was an high day".








L.T.J.





You may freely copy and distribute this article as long as the text is not altered in any way and that the author's initials, L.T.J. remain as part of the text.


what day is it today? Is it time yet?

watchinginawe
Mar 25th 2008, 01:16 AM
You obviously have not read the OP or have decided to ignore the biblical fact that after the passover every year the following day was a special sabbath day regardless of what day of the week it fell on. Passover was always on the 14th. The following day was ALWAYS a Sabbath. They had to rest on that special Sabbath according to the commandment. (Verse 56 above).
...
But you can at least make the claim that that year the 15th happened to fall on Saturday making that Saturday a kind of double Sabbath, which of course would happen every once in a while.
Can we at least get out of you that the day following the Passover was a Sabbath regardless of what day of the week it fell on?Thanks for the post. I won't create a new response as I think the topic is winding down. Thanks for such an interesting topic.

I did address the above in the thread. It probably got lost in the shuffle though, so I can understand your comment. Check out this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1580849&postcount=103)(I apologize in advance for the tone of that post) and this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1580865&postcount=105).
We can agree to disagree. Yes, no problem. As valley offered, the topic isn't for everyone. As the thread proved out, there are :hmm: (1, 2, 3, 4, 5...) probably 5 (more?) different reckonings represented in the thread. :eek: So it isn't an obvious topic.

God Bless!

Servant89
Apr 13th 2008, 09:30 PM
Jesus could not have resurrected on Sabbath day because he is the firstfruits of the resurrection (1 Cor 15:20,23). The feast of firstfruits that spoke of his resurrection, had to be celebrated on Sunday morning (Lev 23:11). The gospels state clearly that it was the first day of the week when he resurrected (fulfilling Lev 23:11).

The law states that if Jesus had remained on the cross after sunset it would have failed as a sacrifice offering (failing to clean the earth allowing it to be defiled as stated in Deu 21:22-23). See Joshua 8:29 & 10:26.

So, yes, he resurrected Thursday (the only way to be burried 3 days and 3 nights).

Shalom

Naphal
Apr 13th 2008, 09:55 PM
Jesus could not have resurrected on Sabbath day because he is the firstfruits of the resurrection (1 Cor 15:20,23).


Just for the sake of discussion, I don't see how that makes such a thing impossible. It doesn't mention the sabbath at all in those verses.





The feast of firstfruits that spoke of his resurrection, had to be celebrated on Sunday morning (Lev 23:11).



Fine but nothing is said that Jesus being the firstfruits of the dead is related to him resurrecting on "the feast of firstfruits".

here are the verses in question:


Leviticus 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Leviticus 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Leviticus 23:12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
Leviticus 23:14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Leviticus 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Leviticus 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
Leviticus 23:20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

This really doesn't seem to match the events of his resurrection IMO as they actually kill a perfect Lamb on this day.




The gospels state clearly that it was the first day of the week when he resurrected (fulfilling Lev 23:11).

Please quote that because I am certain the gospels do not say when he ressurected only that he had already resurrected by the time they arrived as the tomb was empty. When it occurred is not written.



The law states that if Jesus had remained on the cross after sunset it would have failed as a sacrifice offering (failing to clean the earth allowing it to be defiled as stated in Deu 21:22-23).

This does not apply to Jesus.


Deuteronomy 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Jesus did not committed a sin worthy of death, he committed no sins and this is Jewish law when they kill a sinner but they tricked the Romans to kill Jesus so it really doesn't apply. Lastly, the sacrifice still would have been valid even had the body remained on the cross when it officially began the Sabbath because that wouldn't have defiled anything that Jesus accomplished. The land was already defiled by the Romans and the misguided Jews anyways.




See Joshua 8:29 & 10:26.


Joshua 8:29 And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide: and as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city, and raise thereon a great heap of stones, that remaineth unto this day.

When the sun went down it was officially the next day in biblical terms.


Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

same here



So, yes, he resurrected Thursday (the only way to be burried 3 days and 3 nights).

Resurrected Thursday? I've never heard that one before. I thought you have been trying to say he resurrected on Sunday? Perhaps you meant he died on Thursday.

Servant89
Apr 15th 2008, 12:50 AM
(for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled)

I did not write Gal 3:13 ...

Gal 3:13 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

That is why he had the crown of thorns because thorns came out when God cursed the earth in Genesis (a sign of the curse).

Thanks for pointing out my error on Thurday resurrection (I meant dead and burial). Thanks,

I see the feasts as prophetic like Christ our passover was killed on passover day. I see you don't.

I see you do not buy the words (on the first day of the week...) of Mat 28:1 or Mar 16:2. It is hard to communicate when we have different Bibles.

Shalom

Naphal
Apr 15th 2008, 03:44 AM
(for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled)

I did not write Gal 3:13 ...

Gal 3:13 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

That is why he had the crown of thorns because thorns came out when God cursed the earth in Genesis (a sign of the curse).

I don't disagree that he was made a curse but he wasn't guilty of a sin worthy of death. The only thing the two verses have in common is that anyone hung on a tree is cursed...not necessarily by God but cursed nonetheless.



I see the feasts as prophetic like Christ our passover was killed on passover day. I see you don't.

I see a lamb being slain for sins as prophetic of Christ the lamb being slain but I don't know about the feasts.



I see you do not buy the words (on the first day of the week...) of Mat 28:1 or Mar 16:2. It is hard to communicate when we have different Bibles.

I doubt we have different bibles. What our bibles do not say is that Jesus resurrected on Sunday just that he wasn't in the tomb on Sunday. When exactly he rose is not fully clear.

Servant89
Apr 16th 2008, 09:58 PM
(for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled)

Gal 3:13 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Notice the parenthesis on the first line, that is what determines that the land be not defiled, hanging on a tree makes the person acursed as it is written. The curse of us all fell on Jesus, he took care of our sins and curses too.

Yes, Jesus never ever commited any sin, all of us Christians believe that. That is not the point of argument. It is the second part that makes the earth defilled, (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled) if the person is not brought down before sunset (and Jesus was brought down before sunset), it would had been defiled.

Additinonally, it is written:
Col 1:18 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

He is the firstborn of the dead that in all things he might have the preeminence. That is why the feast of firstfruits had to be celebrated the morning after the Sabbath (sunday morning) so that even on the agenda for the week, Jesus might be # 1 and have preeminence in everything. That is why he resurrected Sunday morning.

By the way, they are all prophecies
1. Jesus the passover lamb died on passover day.
2. Jesus the firstfruits of the resurrection resurrected Sunday morning on the day of the feast of the firstfruits fulfilling the prophecy.
3. And the first official church meeting with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is just so happened occurred on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), a feast that represents the church. It is no coincidence that the feast of Pentecost also had to be celebrated Sunday morning because it is a foretelling of the church meetings of today.

Shalom

bibletime
Apr 16th 2008, 10:05 PM
Dear Alaska,

Regarding the three days and three nights. When the resurrection verses say end of the sabbaths, it would be Passover and Unleavened bread. The first of the sabbaths would be the sabbath day.

__________
Now in the end of the Sabbaths, Passover and Unleavened Bread, when the first of ye Sabbaths began to dawne, the Sabbath day, Matthew 28:1.

Verely, verely I say vnto you, Except the wheate corne fall into the grounde and die, it bideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth foorth much fruite, John 12:24.

In Genesis 1 it says on the third day of the plants with their seed, the corn of wheat. The next verses say what God brought forth.

The Timeline Of History - html (http://ebiblefellowship.com/sunday_bible_study/2005.10.09_McOwen_-_The_Timeline_of_History.html) audio (http://ebiblefellowship.com/sunday_bible_study/2005.10.09_McOwen_-_The_Timeline_of_History.m3u) When it says Noah went into the ark the same day, like in John 20:19, Iesous coming to them on sabbath day, like a day has hours and minutes, the seven thousandth has years and months. So it could be a few years later.

Thinking about why the biblical calendar goes to 33AD when Iesous was on the cross on the third day, and arose again on the seventh in 30AD, the Daniel verse says in the midst of the seven, and that he shall confirm the covenant for one seven. Knowing that the gospels tell of Iesous's 3.5 years, what verses tell us of the other 3.5 years is a question. In Acts 12 it says of the messenger of the Lord, it is recorded to be about 34AD.

watchinginawe
May 26th 2008, 02:55 PM
Yes, it is interesting looking at the scriptures.

But, I want to remind you that I am a "the third day" believer. Therefore, I do not count days and nights, etc. I was just offering a reckoning from Jesus' betrayal forward from the scriptures I offered.

So for me, rising again the third day, is: Friday death, Saturday sabbath, Sunday resurrection: Sunday being the third day. While I believe that Jesus rose in the morning, I am fine with the times earlier that you suggest.

I still like the words of Jesus on what constitutes "the third day":

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

So, reckoning from a Friday crucifixion to the third day, we can insert those days with the above reckoning of Jesus' saying: today (Friday), tomorrow (Saturday), and the third day (Sunday). The third day.

God Bless!For reference, I wanted to include here another passage where God reckons a third day in the same manner as Jesus in the above. In Exodus, God commands:

Exodus 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
...
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

God Bless!

Puddleglum
May 26th 2008, 03:52 PM
Jesus Died on Thursday, Not Friday


We are informed by the Holy Scriptures that Jesus rose from the dead very early on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Since Jesus made it very plain that he was to be in the heart of the earth (dead and buried) for three days and three nights, (Matt. 12:40) let us now count the days and nights from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning to see if it works. First the nights: Friday night and Saturday night. He rose early Sunday so there is no way to get any more than these two nights. Now let us count the days: From late Friday afternoon there is only Saturday's full daylight period to count. By this, he would have risen on the second day. So here, we have only two nights and he is risen on the second day. This is not what Jesus emphatically prophesied. Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights. Jesus confidently assured his apostles that he was to be in the heart of the earth for the same length of time. By accepting that Jesus died on Friday, we must contradict the words of Him who had power to lay down his life and had power to take it again (John 10:17,18).

Obviously, the idea that He died on Friday doesn’t work. There is a day missing. What happened?

The reason why it is believed that He died on Friday is because the scriptures plainly tell us that a sabbath day immediately followed his death. It is precisely at this point where the error occurred. It is assumed that the sabbath following his death was a normal sabbath day (Saturday). However, the Scriptures clearly reveal that the day following Passover was always a special sabbath (rest day) that would fall on different days of the week from year to year because Passover was set on a fixed date.

On the fourteenth day of the first month (Abib), Jesus ate the Passover (the last supper) with his apostles in accordance with the rules given by Moses. All the Jews observed these laws. This meal is eaten after the sun goes down which is the very beginning of the Jewish twenty-four hour "day". (We reckon our days from midnight to midnight but the Jews reckon from sundown to sundown.) So, before the sun went down again, Jesus had been apprehended, tried, crucified and laid in the tomb. (The Lamb of God died on Passover day, see 1 Cor. 5:7.) But remember, they were urgent to get his body in the tomb before the sun went down because that coming day (which began at sundown) was a sabbath day. That fifteenth day of the month was a sabbath day every single year no matter what day of the week it happened to fall on. On this particular year, Passover fell on a Thursday; Friday the 15th was the special sabbath and Saturday was the normal sabbath. So using this model, let us again count the nights first: Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night. Now let us count the days: Friday's daylight and Saturday's daylight. He was seen alive on Sunday, the third daylight after he was killed.

By this, we see that by the time the sun rose Sunday morning, the third twenty-four hour Jewish day since Jesus died (sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday) was already about half way through. If someone includes Thursday (sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday) when counting the 24 hour days (since that is the day in which he was buried) then it is reasonable to say that he arose "after three days". On the other hand, if someone begins counting from after sundown (which is more commonly done since he was laid in the tomb just prior to sundown on Thursday) then it is also correct to say that he rose "in three days" or "on the third day”.

Whether we focus on this 24 hour aspect or on the distinction between daytime and night time periods, the fact remains that all three night time periods are accounted for if we accept that the sabbath following his death was not a normal Saturday sabbath. The three nights, which Jesus specified, (Matt. 12:40) cannot be accounted for by the Good Friday model. Also, the Good Friday doctrine cannot accommodate the phrase “after three days”, which is found in Mark 8:31 and Matt. 27:63,64

Why, you say, is this important? By this very practical and proven understanding of how the Jews kept the Passover, we need no longer imply, by conceding to the Good Friday doctrine, that Jesus was not in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Ignorantly sowing doubt in the hearts of others about the dependability of God's Word is not something that someone who has the love of God wants to do. There is no way anyone is going to get three days and three nights from Friday evening to Sunday morning. Uncertainty and doubt is the natural effect in the hearts of those who have read Jesus' prophesy that he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights but who are then misinformed that he died on Friday. Those who have a zeal to defend the preserved written Word and to oppose error, will be blessed by the knowledge that the sabbath day immediately following the Passover was not a normal sabbath but a special sabbath that occurred every year on a set date and which could fall on any day of the week. This accounts for that missing day.

All of the New Testament references fit comfortably into this model. They are listed below. After these, you will find the Old Testament references that verify that the fifteenth of that month was in fact a "high day".

Matt 12:40 Matt 16:21 Matt 17:23 Matt 20:19 Matt 27:63,64 Mark 8:31 Mark 9:31 Mark 10:34 Mark 14:58 Mark 15:29 Luke 18:33 Luke 24:7 Luke 24:46 John 2:19 John 2:20,21 Acts 10:40 1 Cor. 15:4

Lev 23:2-8 Numbers 28:16-19,25 Exodus 12:15-16

Exodus 12:17 Numbers 33:3 Exodus 12:42

This is irrefutable evidence that the fifteenth day of the first month was set aside as a holy convocation (sabbath). It was a day to be remembered because that was the day the children of Israel came out of Egypt.

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. See also Luke 24:52-54 Mark 15:42,43 Matt. 27:62

So the answer was in the Scriptures all along: "that sabbath day was an high day".









L.T.J.

You may freely copy and distribute this article as long as the text is not altered in any way and that the author's initials, L.T.J. remain as part of the text.



hmmm...

not really sure if it matters! personally, and this is just my opinion, i dont care if Christ dies on thurmonday in the month of junetember. I have a weird calander.

In heaven, we are all gonna be sitting around, laughing and patting each other on the back while answers are being given out, becuase of how wrong ALL of us have been down here on earth.

It's gonna be a good day!

Naphal
May 26th 2008, 08:03 PM
For reference, I wanted to include here another passage where God reckons a third day in the same manner as Jesus in the above. In Exodus, God commands:

Exodus 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
...
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

God Bless!


The problem there is that both of these scriptures must match to the same exact timeframe:


Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

In the example you gave, there is no third night.

Reynolds357
May 26th 2008, 08:17 PM
Jesus Died on Thursday, Not Friday


We are informed by the Holy Scriptures that Jesus rose from the dead very early on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Since Jesus made it very plain that he was to be in the heart of the earth (dead and buried) for three days and three nights, (Matt. 12:40) let us now count the days and nights from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning to see if it works. First the nights: Friday night and Saturday night. He rose early Sunday so there is no way to get any more than these two nights. Now let us count the days: From late Friday afternoon there is only Saturday's full daylight period to count. By this, he would have risen on the second day. So here, we have only two nights and he is risen on the second day. This is not what Jesus emphatically prophesied. Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights. Jesus confidently assured his apostles that he was to be in the heart of the earth for the same length of time. By accepting that Jesus died on Friday, we must contradict the words of Him who had power to lay down his life and had power to take it again (John 10:17,18).

Obviously, the idea that He died on Friday doesn’t work. There is a day missing. What happened?

The reason why it is believed that He died on Friday is because the scriptures plainly tell us that a sabbath day immediately followed his death. It is precisely at this point where the error occurred. It is assumed that the sabbath following his death was a normal sabbath day (Saturday). However, the Scriptures clearly reveal that the day following Passover was always a special sabbath (rest day) that would fall on different days of the week from year to year because Passover was set on a fixed date.

On the fourteenth day of the first month (Abib), Jesus ate the Passover (the last supper) with his apostles in accordance with the rules given by Moses. All the Jews observed these laws. This meal is eaten after the sun goes down which is the very beginning of the Jewish twenty-four hour "day". (We reckon our days from midnight to midnight but the Jews reckon from sundown to sundown.) So, before the sun went down again, Jesus had been apprehended, tried, crucified and laid in the tomb. (The Lamb of God died on Passover day, see 1 Cor. 5:7.) But remember, they were urgent to get his body in the tomb before the sun went down because that coming day (which began at sundown) was a sabbath day. That fifteenth day of the month was a sabbath day every single year no matter what day of the week it happened to fall on. On this particular year, Passover fell on a Thursday; Friday the 15th was the special sabbath and Saturday was the normal sabbath. So using this model, let us again count the nights first: Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night. Now let us count the days: Friday's daylight and Saturday's daylight. He was seen alive on Sunday, the third daylight after he was killed.

By this, we see that by the time the sun rose Sunday morning, the third twenty-four hour Jewish day since Jesus died (sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday) was already about half way through. If someone includes Thursday (sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday) when counting the 24 hour days (since that is the day in which he was buried) then it is reasonable to say that he arose "after three days". On the other hand, if someone begins counting from after sundown (which is more commonly done since he was laid in the tomb just prior to sundown on Thursday) then it is also correct to say that he rose "in three days" or "on the third day”.

Whether we focus on this 24 hour aspect or on the distinction between daytime and night time periods, the fact remains that all three night time periods are accounted for if we accept that the sabbath following his death was not a normal Saturday sabbath. The three nights, which Jesus specified, (Matt. 12:40) cannot be accounted for by the Good Friday model. Also, the Good Friday doctrine cannot accommodate the phrase “after three days”, which is found in Mark 8:31 and Matt. 27:63,64

Why, you say, is this important? By this very practical and proven understanding of how the Jews kept the Passover, we need no longer imply, by conceding to the Good Friday doctrine, that Jesus was not in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Ignorantly sowing doubt in the hearts of others about the dependability of God's Word is not something that someone who has the love of God wants to do. There is no way anyone is going to get three days and three nights from Friday evening to Sunday morning. Uncertainty and doubt is the natural effect in the hearts of those who have read Jesus' prophesy that he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights but who are then misinformed that he died on Friday. Those who have a zeal to defend the preserved written Word and to oppose error, will be blessed by the knowledge that the sabbath day immediately following the Passover was not a normal sabbath but a special sabbath that occurred every year on a set date and which could fall on any day of the week. This accounts for that missing day.

All of the New Testament references fit comfortably into this model. They are listed below. After these, you will find the Old Testament references that verify that the fifteenth of that month was in fact a "high day".

Matt 12:40 Matt 16:21 Matt 17:23 Matt 20:19 Matt 27:63,64 Mark 8:31 Mark 9:31 Mark 10:34 Mark 14:58 Mark 15:29 Luke 18:33 Luke 24:7 Luke 24:46 John 2:19 John 2:20,21 Acts 10:40 1 Cor. 15:4

Lev 23:2-8 Numbers 28:16-19,25 Exodus 12:15-16

Exodus 12:17 Numbers 33:3 Exodus 12:42

This is irrefutable evidence that the fifteenth day of the first month was set aside as a holy convocation (sabbath). It was a day to be remembered because that was the day the children of Israel came out of Egypt.

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. See also Luke 24:52-54 Mark 15:42,43 Matt. 27:62

So the answer was in the Scriptures all along: "that sabbath day was an high day".









L.T.J.

You may freely copy and distribute this article as long as the text is not altered in any way and that the author's initials, L.T.J. remain as part of the text.

His death was on Wednesday, not Thursday. Keep in mind the timing of the high sabbath.

1of7000
May 27th 2008, 01:26 AM
His death was on Wednesday, not Thursday. Keep in mind the timing of the high sabbath.


What you said,

and a question, If Jesus was the Passover how could He have eaten the passover? Where does it say that He ate the Passover? He got a room to be ready for the Passover, Obviously you can't eat what you are. unless you give credence to freud...

3 days and 3nights is a specific time period 72 hours, 3 days is a general time frame.

bibletime
May 31st 2008, 03:22 PM
Where does it say that He ate the Passover?

3 days and 3nights is a specific time period 72 hours, 3 days is a general time frame.


It said before in the Luke 22:15 verse.

There's also the Revelation 11:11 verse, and a time, times, and a half. There is a study of the number 84, 8400 at a latter rain yahoo group.

__________
Now in the end of the Sabbaths, Passover and Unleavened Bread, when the first of ye Sabbaths began to dawne, the Sabbath day, Matthew 28:1.

Verely, verely I say vnto you, Except the wheate corne fall into the grounde and die, it bideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth foorth much fruite, John 12:24.

In Genesis 1 it says on the third day of the plants with their seed, the corn of wheat. The next verses say what God brought forth.

The Timeline Of History - html (http://ebiblefellowship.com/sunday_bible_study/2005.10.09_McOwen_-_The_Timeline_of_History.html) audio (http://ebiblefellowship.com/sunday_bible_study/2005.10.09_McOwen_-_The_Timeline_of_History.m3u) When it says Noah went into the ark the same day, like in John 20:19, Iesous coming to them on sabbath day, though it is the anniversary in the seven thousandth year, it could be a few years later. (-4990BC + 6023 = 1033AD, a thousand years more says of 2033AD.)

Thinking about why the biblical calendar goes to 33AD when Iesous was on the cross on the third day, and arose again on the seventh in 30AD, the Daniel verse says in the midst of the seven, and that he shall confirm the covenant for one seven. Knowing that the gospels tell of Iesous's 3.5 years, what verses tell us of the other 3.5 years is a question. In Acts 12 it says of the messenger of the Lord, it is recorded to be about 34AD.

bibletime
May 31st 2008, 04:08 PM
Did some editing to this,

The Timeline Of History - html (http://ebiblefellowship.com/sunday_bible_study/2005.10.09_McOwen_-_The_Timeline_of_History.html) audio (http://ebiblefellowship.com/sunday_bible_study/2005.10.09_McOwen_-_The_Timeline_of_History.m3u) When the bible says Noah went into the ark the same day, like in John 20:19, Iesous with them on sabbath day, that it is the anniversary in the seven thousandth year, there could be a few more years of it. (-4990BC + 6023 = 1033AD, a thousand years more says of 2033AD.)