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RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 02:35 AM
Fenris, if you read this, please help me out. I'd like to observe Passover this year, in some way. What would you suggest for a beginner?

Others who observe it may also post, of course! :hug:

2Witnesses
Mar 16th 2008, 03:26 AM
Fenris, if you read this, please help me out. I'd like to observe Passover this year, in some way. What would you suggest for a beginner?

Others who observe it may also post, of course! :hug:

Why do you want to observe it? I mean, its ok for a learning experience. I just wondered what was your motivation.

2Witnesses

RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 03:31 AM
Why do you want to observe it? I mean, its ok for a learning experience. I just wondered what was your motivation.

2Witnesses


Because I just studied Mark. And I'm sad that Easter is so disconnected from Passover.

2Witnesses
Mar 16th 2008, 03:53 AM
Because I just studied Mark. And I'm sad that Easter is so disconnected from Passover.

I am not sure what you mean by that. But yes, some have allowed pagan influence to be associated with, not Passover, but the Lord's Supper.

Passover pointed to our passover, which is Christ. And the Supper pictured the fulfilled Passover. It pictured the New Covenant. That not with the blood of a passover lamb, blood on the post. But by His blood on the tree.

The blood was put on the door post because the door signifies entrance. It was the access into one's house. And it is the picture of the heart of a person. Belief or unbelief is the keeper of the house. But He says, 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock.'

2Witnesses

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 11:53 AM
Roadwarrior, I'll get back to you on this.

RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 03:19 PM
Roadwarrior, I'll get back to you on this.

Thanks. I look forward to your thoughts.

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 04:35 PM
And this day shall become a memorial for you, and you shall observe it as a festival for the L-RD, for your generations, as an eternal decree shall you observe it. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove the leaven from your homes ... you shall guard the unleavened bread, because on this very day I will take you out of the land of Egypt; you shall observe this day for your generations as an eternal decree. - Exodus 12:14-17

Passover signifies the event that was the birth of the Jewish people. Because God Himself took our ancestors from Egypt, with open miracles, God has the right to demand so much more from us than He does from any other people.

So let's examine the specific practices of the holiday. First we have the prohibition on retaining any leavened bread. In the most obvious sense, this is part of the remembrance of the Exodus; the Jews fled Egypt so quickly that their bread did not have time to rise. In a more subtle sense, it's about us removing the puffiness or haughtiness from our persona, and reminding ourselves of the importance of humility.

Then we have the Seder. The Seder has many symbolic acts and customs, all there to remind us of the Exodus.

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 04:46 PM
The order of the Seder (which actually means 'order!) I have borrowed the details from another site. Many of the details of the Seder are specifically unusual so that children are confused and ask questions.

1. Kaddesh: Sanctification
A blessing over wine in honor of the holiday. The wine is drunk, and a second cup is poured.

2. Urechatz: Washing
A washing of the hands without a blessing, in preparation for eating the Karpas.

3. Karpas: Vegetable

A vegetable (usually parsley) is dipped in salt water and eaten. The vegetable symbolizes the lowly origins of the Jewish people; the salt water symbolizes the tears shed as a result of our slavery. Parsley is a good vegetable to use for this purpose, because when you shake off the salt water, it looks like tears.

4. Yachatz: Breaking

One of the three matzahs on the table is broken. Part is returned to the pile, the other part is set aside for the afikomen (see below).

5. Maggid: The Story

A retelling of the story of the Exodus from Egypt and the first Pesach. This begins with the youngest person asking The Four Questions, a set of questions about the proceedings designed to encourage participation in the seder. The Four Questions are also known as Mah Nishtanah (Why is it different?), which are the first words of the Four Questions. This is often sung.

The maggid is designed to satisfy the needs of four different types of people: the wise one, who wants to know the technical details; the wicked one, who excludes himself (and learns the penalty for doing so); the simple one, who needs to know the basics; and the one who is unable to ask, who doesn't even know enough to know what he needs to know.

At the end of the maggid, a blessing is recited over the second cup of wine and it is drunk.

6. Rachtzah: Washing
A second washing of the hands, this time with a blessing, in preparation for eating the matzah

7. Motzi: Blessing over Grain Products

The ha-motzi blessing, a generic blessing for bread or grain products used as a meal, is recited over the matzah.

8. Matzah: Blessing over Matzah
A blessing specific to matzah is recited, and a bit of matzah is eaten.

9. Maror: Bitter Herbs

A blessing is recited over a bitter vegetable (usually raw horseradish; sometimes romaine lettuce), and it is eaten. This symbolizes the bitterness of slavery. The maror is dipped in charoset, a mixture of apples, nuts, cinnamon and wine, which symbolizes the mortar used by the Jews in building during their slavery.


10. Korekh: The Sandwich
Rabbi Hillel was of the opinion that the maror should be eaten together with matzah and the paschal offering in a sandwich. In his honor, we eat some maror on a piece of matzah, with some charoset (we don't do animal sacrifice anymore, so there is no paschal offering to eat).

11. Shulchan Orekh: Dinner
A festive meal is eaten. There is no particular requirement regarding what to eat at this meal (except, of course, that chametz cannot be eaten). Among Ashkenazic Jews, gefilte fish and matzah ball soup are traditionally eaten at the beginning of the meal. Roast chicken or turkey are common as a main course, as is beef brisket.

12. Tzafun: The Afikomen
The piece of matzah set aside earlier is eaten as "desert," the last food of the meal. Different families have different traditions relating to the afikomen. Some have the children hide it, while the parents have to either find it or ransom it back. Others have the parents hide it. The idea is to keep the children awake and attentive throughout the pre-meal proceedings, waiting for this part.

13. Barekh: Grace after Meals
The third cup of wine is poured, and birkat ha-mazon (grace after meals) is recited. This is similar to the grace that would be said on any Shabbat. At the end, a blessing is said over the third cup and it is drunk. The fourth cup is poured, including a cup set aside for the prophet Elijah, who is supposed to herald the Messiah, and is supposed to come on Pesach to do this. The door is opened for a while at this point .

14. Hallel: Praises

Several psalms are recited. A blessing is recited over the last cup of wine and it is drunk.

15. Nirtzah: Closing
A simple statement that the seder has been completed, with a wish that next year, we may celebrate Pesach in Jerusalem (i.e., that the Messiah will come within the next year). This is followed by various hymns and stories.

RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 05:07 PM
Thank you so much, Fenris. This is helpful to me. I have some questions. :)

I'd like for you to talk about the days. I saw on a calendar website that Passover this year begins on the 20th of April and ends on the 26th. (I assume that is sundown on the 19th, to sundown on the 26th.)

I'd also like for you to talk about the candles.

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 05:30 PM
sunset April 19, 2008 - nightfall April 27, 2008

RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 05:39 PM
What is the difference between sunset and nightfall? Are the candles lit at sunset?

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 06:19 PM
Sunset is when the sun goes below the horizon. Nightfall is about 42 minutes later.

2Witnesses
Mar 16th 2008, 06:57 PM
Sunset is when the sun goes below the horizon. Nightfall is about 42 minutes later.


Would to God, we all knew the time, and the times. How many of these, till he understands?

I watched, as the sun went away. And darkness came. Did I fear? Did I curse the darkness?

Lord, Eli, pass over my house. Covah! Do not see! For Your lovingkindess endures forever.

It is enough!

2Witnesses

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 07:07 PM
Would to God, we all knew the time, and the times. How many of these, till he understands?

I watched, as the sun went away. And darkness came. Did I fear? Did I curse the darkness?

Lord, Eli, pass over my house. Covah! Do not see! For Your lovingkindess endures forever.

It is enough!

2WitnessesPardon me, but what on earth are you talking about? And how does it contribute to the original topic of this thread?

We're having a perfectly polite discussion on a Jewish holiday. What are you doing?

Kahtar
Mar 16th 2008, 07:29 PM
Why do you want to observe it? I mean, its ok for a learning experience. I just wondered what was your motivation.

2WitnessesProbably the same reason any Christian would want to 'observe' Easter.
And this day shall become a memorial for you, and you shall observe it as a festival for the L-RD,
Passover is a memorial festival, a time of celebrating what God did for Israel. For the Christian, it is that, but ALSO the celebration of what the True Lamb of God did for all mankind.
Nothing wrong with celebrating that, 2W. Why would you NOT want to?

Ta-An
Mar 16th 2008, 07:34 PM
Passover comes from the word Pesach and Easter marks the beginning of the European spring??? Not so??

RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 08:06 PM
Sunset is when the sun goes below the horizon. Nightfall is about 42 minutes later.

OK, that makes sense. What about the candles?

I have been making charoset and getting matzah crackers the last couple of years. Also, I have done the parsley and the salt water.

I'd really like to focus on timing this year. I'd like to light candles, and have my evening meal ready ahead of time. After reading your posts, I want to do the removal of the leaven, also.

Recently I began to think about the Sabbath (in large part because of watching you take the day off from this board, and honor that day) and the value of it, spiritually.

It must be a great blessing to have your home feel like a sanctuary for that 24 hours, set aside for purity and holiness.

What is it like to have the Scriptures by the entry of the house? When you come in it must feel like a very different environment. It is a place where the Lord is honored.

I am not trying to "be Jewish". But I really do want to gain some of the feeling of holiness that goes with many of the practices of the religious Jews. It seems to me that the concepts underlying the practices are about glorifying God.

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 08:18 PM
OK, that makes sense. What about the candles? Candles are lit the first day at sunset, and after nightfall for the second day. This year is an exception, because the first day begins saturday night. SO we light after nightfall the first night too. Incidentally, candles are usually lit by the women and not the man, although a man may light if no woman is available (or willing).


I have been making charoset and getting matzah crackers the last couple of years. Also, I have done the parsley and the salt water. Good.


I'd really like to focus on timing this year. I'd like to light candles, and have my evening meal ready ahead of time. After reading your posts, I want to do the removal of the leaven, also.
Well, just consider it a major spring cleaning. Also, as I said, consider the metaphorical idea of removing arrogance (although I have not sen any from you here! :)).

You might consider getting a Haggadah to read at your Seder. There are probably some good beginner ones out there.


Recently I began to think about the Sabbath (in large part because of watching you take the day off from this board, and honor that day) and the value of it, spiritually.

It must be a great blessing to have your home feel like a sanctuary for that 24 hours, set aside for purity and holiness.Oh, it is, believe me!


What is it like to have the Scriptures by the entry of the house? When you come in it must feel like a very different environment. It is a place where the Lord is honored.Well, it's taking a physical edifice like a house and turning it into a spiritual place.


I am not trying to "be Jewish". But I really do want to gain some of the feeling of holiness that goes with many of the practices of the religious Jews. It seems to me that the concepts underlying the practices are about glorifying God.

Many of the things we are commanded to do are meant to be reminders of God's presence and His glory. And of course, we have the abstract commandment to 'be holy', to glorify God in everything we do.

RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 08:28 PM
I went googling and found chabad.org. That looks like a good site, with lots of information. I realize it can be overwhelming for someone who did not grow up with all of that. So, I think I will work on it a little at a time, and see what fits my life.

I like the bit you said about clearing away arrogance.

Thank you very much for what you have shared with me.

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 08:34 PM
Chabad is excellent.

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 08:44 PM
RoadWarrior, it is my great pleasure to help you come closer to God.

RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 08:53 PM
:hug:

I have just been walking around in my house thinking about chametz and how to get rid of it, in the spiritual sense.

We do serve an awesome God.

Ta-An
Mar 16th 2008, 08:56 PM
:hug:

I have just been walking around in my house thinking about chametz and how to get rid of it, in the spiritual sense.

We do serve an awesome God.RW, you know that chametz is a sign of sin.... and it gets swept up with a feather,,,,, that representing the Holy Spirit of G_d ;)

We have a word in Afrikaans that sounds very similar to chametz: "gemors" which means "rubbish" ;)

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 08:58 PM
Amen!! We are indeed blessed!

RoadWarrior
Mar 16th 2008, 09:11 PM
RW, you know that chametz is a sign of sin.... and it gets swept up with a feather,,,,, that representing the Holy Spirit of G_d ;)

We have a word in Afrikaans that sounds very similar to chametz: "gemors" which means "rubbish" ;)

Thanks, ACCM. Yes, I've been reading about the meaning of chametz. What a concept! My mind has to expand to grasp it.

The feather - I saw that on Chabad. Does it represent the Holy Spirit to the Jews, also?

I like that all the remaining chametz gets tied into a paper bag and burned the next morning. It reminds me of something that happened not long after I gave my life to the Lord. I woke up in the night and knew I had to get rid of all my horoscope books. I got out of bed, gathered them up, and put them in a paper bag on the porch. The next day I think I took the bag out to the trash. But it was like that. Astrology was chametz in my life, and the Lord graciously helped me to deal with it, to cleanse it from my life.

I guess that was the "feather" working in my mind even while I slept!
:pp

daughter
Mar 16th 2008, 09:16 PM
Here's an interesting question... does anybody know what time of year palm leaves are "harvestable" in Israel? Traditionally palm leaves are used in an autumn feast, aren't they?

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 09:18 PM
Here's an interesting question... does anybody know what time of year palm leaves are "harvestable" in Israel? Traditionally palm leaves are used in an autumn feast, aren't they?Succot, yes. That's in October.

daughter
Mar 16th 2008, 09:19 PM
So, are palm leaves available this time of year? I've never been to Israel, I don't know what the seasons are like!

Fenris
Mar 16th 2008, 09:20 PM
The feather - I saw that on Chabad. Does it represent the Holy Spirit to the Jews, also?No, we don't have that concept. God is one indivisible being to us.

Toymom
Mar 17th 2008, 03:40 AM
To me, Passover is a Jewish holiday. To add Christ to it seems insulting to the Jewish part of me. I understand it from the Christian POV, but from the Jewish POV it seems wrong if that makes any sense at all.
I used to work with a lady who met with a Messianic group and she told me about their "Passover" celebration and it sounded to me like they were making a mockery of Judaism or using the sacred Jewish holiday as a form of entertainment.
I am sorry if that sounds bad.
But, it is a celebration of God bringing the Jews out of Egypt.
Why would gentiles even want to celebrate that?
What is it to them?

Tanya~
Mar 17th 2008, 03:52 AM
Hi Toymom,

What if God intended all along that Christ should be the fulfillment of Passover?

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 04:03 AM
So, are palm leaves available this time of year? I've never been to Israel, I don't know what the seasons are like!

Hi daughter,

I think palm leaves are always there. There is one behind my house in my neighbor's yard. There are always green leaves at the top. The old ones die, but the new ones are always growing.

Israel is on the Mediterranean; I think the climate is much like what we have in California.

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 04:09 AM
Passover comes from the word Pesach and Easter marks the beginning of the European spring??? Not so??

That is my understanding. So if Easter and Passover are celebrated so far apart from each other, we miss the connections of what really happened in Jerusalem when Jesus was crucified. We hear about it, but it is like something remote and disconnected from our faith.

From my reading of the Bible, I think the two are inseparable, as spiritual events. Except we would not call it Easter. Some say Resurrection Day instead. But the whole world knows it as Easter. Interestingly enough, there is a different date for the Orthodox Easter and the Roman Catholic Easter.

The first time I was in Turkey, we were there at the time of the Catholic Easter. Everybody celebrates with red eggs, for some reason. A week later we were in Greece, and it was the Orthodox Easter. They celebrate with fireworks and parades of carrying around a "tomb".

But none of that is what I am looking for.

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 04:29 AM
To me, Passover is a Jewish holiday. To add Christ to it seems insulting to the Jewish part of me. I understand it from the Christian POV, but from the Jewish POV it seems wrong if that makes any sense at all.
I used to work with a lady who met with a Messianic group and she told me about their "Passover" celebration and it sounded to me like they were making a mockery of Judaism or using the sacred Jewish holiday as a form of entertainment.
I am sorry if that sounds bad.
But, it is a celebration of God bringing the Jews out of Egypt.
Why would gentiles even want to celebrate that?
What is it to them?

Toymom, I don't understand why it would be insulting? Maybe the group you heard about did a poor job of observing the Passover. As I mentioned before, it would be overwhelming to try to step into it, without growing up in it.

Yes it is a celebration of God bringing the Jews out of Egypt, but symbolically it is a celebration for Christians (to my understanding) of God bringing us out of slavery to our sins, out of all that Egypt represents.

I specifically wanted to hear from Fenris about Passover, because God gave it to the Jews. Also, it was on Passover that Jesus was crucified. The meal He ate with His disciples the night before is mysterious to me, because the details of that week in Jerusalem are not completely presented. Was it THE Passover meal, or A Passover meal?

From my very early days of being a Christian, I have wanted to know more about this Holy Week of the Jews.

I like what Kahtar said:


Probably the same reason any Christian would want to 'observe' Easter.
And this day shall become a memorial for you, and you shall observe it as a festival for the L-RD,
Passover is a memorial festival, a time of celebrating what God did for Israel. For the Christian, it is that, but ALSO the celebration of what the True Lamb of God did for all mankind.
...

For the record I don't think of myself as a gentile, although some might say that. I'm not big on labels, but I'm deeply interested in knowing God more. I think Christians would be interested in Passover for the same reason we are interested in the Tanach. It communicates to the world something (many things) about God.

The Jewish people were chosen by God for a reason. They still exist as a people-group and are still carrying the burden that He gave them to carry. They are still communicating to the world Who God is.

Why would anyone not want to know more?

menJesus
Mar 17th 2008, 09:24 AM
RoadWarrior, I am deeply interested in this thread, and am glad its here. :)

In the end, are we not ALL God`s people!?

daughter
Mar 17th 2008, 10:02 AM
Hi daughter,

I think palm leaves are always there. There is one behind my house in my neighbor's yard. There are always green leaves at the top. The old ones die, but the new ones are always growing.

Israel is on the Mediterranean; I think the climate is much like what we have in California.
Cool. Thank you for answering that one! I'd been scratching my head a bit...

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 12:10 PM
RoadWarrior, I am deeply interested in this thread, and am glad its here. :)

In the end, are we not ALL God`s people!?

I like how you said this, menJesus. And I'm glad you are reading the thread and enjoying it. I feel that we are blessed to have Fenris here on the board!

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 01:03 PM
In the end, are we not ALL God`s people!?

Indeed, we are all God's people.
He just gave us all different missions.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 01:05 PM
The meal He ate with His disciples the night before is mysterious to me, because the details of that week in Jerusalem are not completely presented. Was it THE Passover meal, or A Passover meal?

It's my understanding that it is presented as the passover Seder.

Although that would mean Jesus was condemned to death on Passover, which is difficult to reconcile since the Sanhedrin did not meet on holidays.

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 01:24 PM
It's my understanding that it is presented as the passover Seder.

Although that would mean Jesus was condemned to death on Passover, which is difficult to reconcile since the Sanhedrin did not meet on holidays.

Several things seem diffiicult in reconciling the accounts, which leads to much controversy, unfortunately.
:rolleyes:

Two specific days are mentioned ...

the Day of Preparation
the Day of Unleavened Bread

Can you shed any light on those particular days, considering that Passover lasts for 7 days?

daughter
Mar 17th 2008, 01:30 PM
Hey Toymom.

I celebrate Passover because God did an amazing thing... He intervened directly into the lives of a people, formed a great nation out of runaway slaves, punished a wicked system, and proved that He is righteous and holy. No insult intended, God is great!

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 01:42 PM
the Day of Preparation
I don't know. The day before passover?


the Day of Unleavened BreadIt's actually the entire holiday. Again, I don't know...

Kahtar
Mar 17th 2008, 01:49 PM
My understanding is the day of preparation was the day just before passover. Unleavened Bread took in the entire week.
The actual event, the Israelites killed their lambs and painted the blood on the doorpost on the eve of 14th. The next day they left Egypt, starting the time they would only be eating unleavened bread due to their haste in leaving. No time to let the bread rise.

daughter
Mar 17th 2008, 01:51 PM
I think the capital letters throw people. I'm not sure but that the "Day of Preparation" isn't just "the day folks got ready!" There aren't any capital letters in the original Greek. Early translators probably got all excited and thought it was another really special day, as opposed to "last chance to get the shopping done, and the best cutlery clean..."

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 01:55 PM
Hey Toymom.

I celebrate Passover because God did an amazing thing... He intervened directly into the lives of a people, formed a great nation out of runaway slaves, punished a wicked system, and proved that He is righteous and holy. No insult intended, God is great!Good point.

In the Ten Commandments, God introduces Himself as "The Lord your God, who brought you forth from the land of Egypt...".

Why not "The Lord your God who created the heavens and the earth"? Because God is not some abstracted being in the heavens; He's a being who involves Himself in human affairs and is responsible for the events of human history.

diffangle
Mar 17th 2008, 02:08 PM
The first time I was in Turkey, we were there at the time of the Catholic Easter. Everybody celebrates with red eggs, for some reason.

I read in a book years ago that the reason for the red eggs originates with Easter being a fertility festival, the pagans had a ritual that each easter the high priest would impregnate a virgin on the alter, then the following easter the three month old babies would be sacrificed/burned and eggs(fertility symbols) would be dyed in their blood. :cry:

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 02:32 PM
I don't know. The day before passover?
It's actually the entire holiday. Again, I don't know...

So the mystery continues ...

Which day of Passover (the 7 days of unleavened bread) is the seder meal prepared? What is happening on the other 6 days?


My understanding is the day of preparation was the day just before passover. Unleavened Bread took in the entire week.
The actual event, the Israelites killed their lambs and painted the blood on the doorpost on the eve of 14th. The next day they left Egypt, starting the time they would only be eating unleavened bread due to their haste in leaving. No time to let the bread rise.

This sounds like the seder would be on the first day, which this year starts at sundown on the evening of the April 19th, the Sabbath. This must make the preparations really challenging, considering the prohibitions against work, etc., on the Sabbath.

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 02:35 PM
I read in a book years ago that the reason for the red eggs originates with Easter being a fertility festival, the pagans had a ritual ...:cry:

Oh yikes, that is horrible! :eek: What an awful custom. :cry:

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 02:37 PM
So the mystery continues ...

Which day of Passover (the 7 days of unleavened bread) is the seder meal prepared? What is happening on the other 6 days?The first night. First and second nights everywhere but Israel.

The last day (last 2 days everywhere but Israel) is again a holiday without work, but the intermediate days one is permitted to work. Still no unleavened bread allowed though.




This sounds like the seder would be on the first day, which this year starts at sundown on the evening of the April 19th, the Sabbath. This must make the preparations really challenging, considering the prohibitions against work, etc., on the Sabbath.
Quite so.

diffangle
Mar 17th 2008, 02:37 PM
Oh yikes, that is horrible! :eek: What an awful custom. :cry:
I know... of course nowadays, they'll tell you it represents the blood of Messiah.

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 02:39 PM
Good point.

In the Ten Commandments, God introduces Himself as "The Lord your God, who brought you forth from the land of Egypt...".

Why not "The Lord your God who created the heavens and the earth"? Because God is not some abstracted being in the heavens; He's a being who involves Himself in human affairs and is responsible for the events of human history.

From reading about the pagan rituals, it is a very good thing that God does involve Himself in our affairs. Maybe it is about time for another intervention. We sure do seem to need something drastic right now.

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 02:42 PM
The first night. First and second nights everywhere but Israel.

The last day (last 2 days everywhere but Israel) is again a holiday without work, but the intermediate days one is permitted to work. Still no unleavened bread allowed though.



Quite so.

Why would the seder be done on two consecutive nights? Why everywhere but Israel are the holidays a two-day event?

I'm so full of questions, Fenris! Thank you for your patience.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 02:53 PM
From reading about the pagan rituals, it is a very good thing that God does involve Himself in our affairs. Maybe it is about time for another intervention. We sure do seem to need something drastic right now.
He is involved every day.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

It's all God's will. Even the bad stuff. Or at least, the stuff that looks like the bad stuff. Even the Holocaust.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 03:00 PM
Why would the seder be done on two consecutive nights? Why everywhere but Israel are the holidays a two-day event?Calender issue.

The Jewish calendar is based on a lunar calendar. Each month starts at the birth of the new moon. This takes place every 29.53059 days, so the month can be 29 or 30 days long.

The Sanhedrin would proclaim a new month based on the testimony or two witnesses that they had seen the new moon. Messengers would then be sent all over Israel to tell the communities. They would then know when the holidays would be.

For communities outside of Israel, they would not find out when the new month began until late in the month. So they would not be sure when the holidays would fall out. So they would assume the last month was 29 days and start the holiday, and then assume the last month was 30 days and keep a second day of the holiday.

Nowadays we use a codified calender made by the sage Hillel in the 4th century. But in the diaspora we still keep 2 days of the holiday.



I'm so full of questions, Fenris! Thank you for your patience.It is my pleasure, really.

HisLeast
Mar 17th 2008, 03:04 PM
Hey Fenris and RoadWarrior,

How coincidental that this topic comes up just as I'm reading through Exodus. I don't mean to be a buzzkill here, but doesn't Exodus give clear prohibitions against non-jews from partaking in passover?

Exodus 12

43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man’s servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

(emphasis mine)

Wouldn't this passage indicate that no matter what our personal longings are to honor G-d, His intent was to have Passover something celebrated by Jews and their circumcized servants?

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 03:09 PM
He is involved every day.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

It's all God's will. Even the bad stuff. Or at least, the stuff that looks like the bad stuff. Even the Holocaust.

OK, I am really nervous to ask about this! It sounds a bit like Calvinist thought ...

But for some reason, in the night I was thinking of the Holocaust. Maybe because on another thread, the story of Corrie ten Boom was briefly discussed. Out of the Holocaust has come the survivors - what kind of people are the Jews now, compared to what they were before?

Do you see a difference in God's will, i.e., His desired will and His permissive will? (Not sure if I use the right terms here.)

diffangle
Mar 17th 2008, 03:10 PM
Hey Fenris and RoadWarrior,

How coincidental that this topic comes up just as I'm reading through Exodus. I don't mean to be a buzzkill here, but doesn't Exodus give clear prohibitions against non-jews from partaking in passover?

Exodus 12

43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man’s servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

(emphasis mine)

Wouldn't this passage indicate that no matter what our personal longings are to honor G-d, His intent was to have Passover something celebrated by Jews and their circumcized servants?
Exodus 12 was pre-Sinai.

Num 9:14 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=9&v=14&t=KJV#14)And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto YHWH; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 03:26 PM
Hey Fenris and RoadWarrior,

How coincidental that this topic comes up just as I'm reading through Exodus. I don't mean to be a buzzkill here, but doesn't Exodus give clear prohibitions against non-jews from partaking in passover?
...

Wouldn't this passage indicate that no matter what our personal longings are to honor G-d, His intent was to have Passover something celebrated by Jews and their circumcized servants?The passage refers to the Passover offering, not the holiday itself.

If memory serves, Gentiles are only prohibited from commandments that are specifically given to the Jews. For example, about the sabbath it says,"Between Me and the children of Israel it is a sign forever..." which was interpreted to mean that a gentile is not allowed to keep the sabbath in the manner that Jews do.

HisLeast
Mar 17th 2008, 03:32 PM
Exodus 12 was pre-Sinai.

Num 9:14 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=9&v=14&t=KJV#14)And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto YHWH; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

Well... that'll learn me for going years and years without reading the old testament through. :P I'm just finished reading the Sinai account last night. Woke up this morning with a much more sober idea in my head about God. The God who descended on the mountain in fire, and warned His people to touch not even the foot of the mountain lest they be struck down! Struck down? Why? Just to be mean? No... because He is THAT Holy.

I'd recommend the Sinai account for anyone who, like me, struggles to master their sin they keep coming back to. If the Sinai account is how G-d interacts with His chosen people when they've been consecrated and cleansed... just imagine His countenance to the unrepentant!

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 03:36 PM
OK, I am really nervous to ask about this! It sounds a bit like Calvinist thought ...

But for some reason, in the night I was thinking of the Holocaust. Maybe because on another thread, the story of Corrie ten Boom was briefly discussed. Out of the Holocaust has come the survivors - what kind of people are the Jews now, compared to what they were before?

Do you see a difference in God's will, i.e., His desired will and His permissive will? (Not sure if I use the right terms here.)No, that's not how Jews see it. If God is indeed all-powerful, then everything that happens is His desired will.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 03:39 PM
Exodus 12 was pre-Sinai.

Num 9:14 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=9&v=14&t=KJV#14)And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto YHWH; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.
The stranger spoken of here is a Ger Toshav, a Gentile who lives in Israel and who has accepted upon himself certain obligations, in exchange for certain benefits.

HisLeast
Mar 17th 2008, 03:41 PM
The stranger spoken of here is a Ger Toshav, a Gentile who lives in Israel and who has accepted upon himself certain obligations, in exchange for certain benefits.

So for the non-Ger Toshav, are there still prohibitions against partaking in Passover? I know you kinda already answered this for me, but I'm wearing extra-thick skull shielding this morning - absolutely impervious to simple explanation.

diffangle
Mar 17th 2008, 03:46 PM
The stranger spoken of here is a Ger Toshav, a Gentile who lives in Israel and who has accepted upon himself certain obligations, in exchange for certain benefits.
Here's the definition for ger from the concordance...

1) sojourner
a) a temporary inhabitant, a newcomer lacking inherited rights
b) of foreigners in Israel, though conceded rights

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 03:57 PM
So for the non-Ger Toshav, are there still prohibitions against partaking in Passover? No one partakes of the Passover offering anymore.

As far as celebrating the Passover holiday, I have had many non-Jews to my Seder. They enjoyed themselves immensely!:)



I know you kinda already answered this for me, but I'm wearing extra-thick skull shielding this morning - absolutely impervious to simple explanation.

It isn't a simple topic, so you don't have to beat yourself up about it.

RoadWarrior
Mar 17th 2008, 04:35 PM
No, that's not how Jews see it. If God is indeed all-powerful, then everything that happens is His desired will.

This is a complex subject, indeed.

Now that this door is opened by a crack, I am going to timidly venture a bit further. Here is something that has been in my mind this week.

If everything that happens is God's desired will, and you suffer something so great and terrible as the Holocaust --

Do you find yourself angry at God? Do you find that the forgiveness is turned around, and that it is necessary for the victims to forgive Him?

tiptoeing to the side ...

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 05:02 PM
This is a complex subject, indeed.

Now that this door is opened by a crack, I am going to timidly venture a bit further. Here is something that has been in my mind this week.

If everything that happens is God's desired will, and you suffer something so great and terrible as the Holocaust --

Do you find yourself angry at God? Do you find that the forgiveness is turned around, and that it is necessary for the victims to forgive Him?

tiptoeing to the side ...I'm not angry at God for what happened. But then, I did not live through it. Some Jews who did live through it did in fact feel anger at God.

We believe that God has responsibilities, just as Man does. And ultimately, God will have to justify His silence at times in history.

Then there's always the book of Job that teaches us that God's motives are beyond our grasp.

The late Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Schneerson, had the following to say about the Holocaust:


The destruction of six million Jews in such a horrific manner that surpassed the cruelty of all previous generations, could not possibly be because of a punishment for sins. Even the Satan himself could not possibly find a sufficient number of sins that would warrant such genocide!


There is absolutely no rationalistic explanation for the Holocaust except for the fact that it was a Divine decree … why it happened is above human comprehension – but it is definitely not because of punishment for sin.


On the contrary: All those who were murdered in the Holocaust are called “Kedoshim” – holy ones – since they were murdered in sanctification of G–d’s name. Since they were Jews, it is only G–d who will avenge their blood. As we say on Shabbat in the Av Harachamim prayer, “the holy communities who gave their lives for the sanctification of the Divine Name ... and avenge the spilled blood of His servants, as it is written in the Torah of Moshe ... for he will avenge the blood of his servants ... And in the Holy Writings it is said ... Let there be known among the nations, before our eyes, the retribution of the spilled blood of your servants.” G–d describes those who were sanctified as His servants, and promises to avenge their blood.


So great is the spiritual level of the Kedoshim – even disregarding their standing in mitzvah performance – that the Rabbis say about them, “no creation can stand in their place.” How much more so of those who died in the Holocaust, many of whom, as is well known, were among the finest of Europe’s Torah scholars and observant Jews.


It is inconceivable that the Holocaust be regarded as an example of punishment for sin, in particular when addressing this generation, which as mentioned before is “a firebrand plucked from the fire” of the Holocaust.
In short, one can only apply the words of Isaiah, “My thoughts are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways, says the L–rd.” (Isaiah 55:8)

Tanya~
Mar 17th 2008, 05:14 PM
It's a page or two back, but I wanted to address the question of the Preparation Day of the Passover. The Scripture defines what is meant by this:

Passover begins and ends with a holy convocation or Sabbath. (Ex 12:16)

The first day of Passover then, is a Sabbath on which no work could be done. The day before any Sabbath is a day of preparation. This particular Sabbath was a "high day" because it was not the regular weekly Sabbath. It was the Sabbath of the beginning of the Passover.

Mark 15:42-47
Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. 45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. 46 Then he bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. 47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses observed where He was laid.
NKJV

John 19:31
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
NKJV

John 19:41-42
41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. 42 So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby.
NKJV

The Preparation Day was considered the first day of Passover, when they ate unleavened bread beginning that night, before the lamb itself was killed:

Mark 14:12
Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?"
NKJV

The day is counted from sundown to sundown. The Preparation Day lasted from the time Jesus ate the Last Supper with His disciples, until just after He was buried in Joseph's tomb. Thus Paul writes: "Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us." They had to hurry and get Him buried before the sun went down because they had to get to their homes and do no work on the Sabbath. It was Passover, and the day after that also was the regular Sabbath. This is why the Greek text of Matthew 28:1 reads "Now after the Sabbaths, as the first day of the week began to dawn..." (You can verify that it is plural if you have access to a Greek Interlinear and parser.)

Thus Jesus was in the ground three days and three nights, and arose on the first day of the week.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 05:34 PM
It's a page or two back, but I wanted to address the question of the Preparation Day of the Passover. The Scripture defines what is meant by this:

Passover begins and ends with a holy convocation or Sabbath. (Ex 12:16)

The first day of Passover then, is a Sabbath on which no work could be done. The day before any Sabbath is a day of preparation. This particular Sabbath was a "high day" because it was not the regular weekly Sabbath. It was the Sabbath of the beginning of the Passover.yes, very good analysis!


Mark 15:42-47
Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. 45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. 46 Then he bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. 47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses observed where He was laid.
NKJVNow, this says that Jesus was killed before Passover. So the last supper could not have been a Seder.


John 19:31
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
NKJVAgain, this says that he was killed before passover.


John 19:41-42
41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. 42 So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby.
NKJVLikewise here.


The Preparation Day was considered the first day of PassoverNo, this can't be. You said this above. Preperation is the day before Passover.


, when they ate unleavened bread beginning that night, before the lamb itself was killed:No, the lamb was killed before Passover and consumed at the Seder.


Mark 14:12
Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?"
NKJVImpossible. They didn't kill it on the first day.

Tanya~
Mar 17th 2008, 06:06 PM
Hi Fenris, it's nice to talk with you.




No, this can't be. You said this above. Preperation is the day before Passover.

You are right. I should have been more clear. The Preparation Day of the Passover is before Passover. But because they were preparing for Passover on that day, they ate unleavened bread. On the Day of Preparation, all leaven was to be removed, so only unleavened bread would be eaten, even though it was the Preparation Day and not yet technically Passover. So that is why it says this:

Mark 14:12
Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?"
NKJV

Around the time of Christ the term Passover was synonymous with the Feast of Unleavened Bread (I don't know if that is the case now). Even though Passover is one day and Unleavened Bread is 7 days, they were considered one festival and the terms were used interchangeably.

That is why we see this:

Acts 12:1-4
Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread. 4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.
NKJV

I hope this clears up the confusion. The Last Supper was not a Seder meal.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 06:19 PM
Hi Fenris, it's nice to talk with you.Indeed, the pleasure is all mine.




You are right. I should have been more clear. The Preparation Day of the Passover is before Passover. But because they were preparing for Passover on that day, they ate unleavened breadHeh. Actually, we don't eat leavened or unleavened bread on the day before Passover.


So that is why it says this:

Mark 14:12
Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?"
NKJVThat would be an odd way for a Jew to put it. A Jew would refer to the day before Passover as 'the eve or Passover', not the 'first day of unleavened bread' (which it isn't anyway, as I stated above.)


Around the time of Christ the term Passover was synonymous with the Feast of Unleavened Bread (I don't know if that is the case now). Even though Passover is one day and Unleavened Bread is 7 days, they were considered one festival and the terms were used interchangeably. Passover can refer to either the sacrifice or the holiday itself. IN present times since we do not have the sacrifice it obviously means the holiday.

I have not hear the term 'Feast of unleavened bread' anywhere outside of the NT.




I hope this clears up the confusion. The Last Supper was not a Seder meal.

No, it couldn't have been under the facts you laid out.

Tanya~
Mar 17th 2008, 06:46 PM
Heh. Actually, we don't eat leavened or unleavened bread on the day before Passover.

:) At the Last Supper, Jesus took bread and blessed it. It doesn't specifically say that the bread was unleavened, but it is reasonable to expect that this was the case given the fact that leaven had to have been purged out of the house. Some of the customs have changed since then, it would appear.


That would be an odd way for a Jew to put it. A Jew would refer to the day before Passover as 'the eve or Passover', not the 'first day of unleavened bread' (which it isn't anyway, as I stated above.)

Jews today probably keep Passover rather differently than they did in the time of Christ.


Passover can refer to either the sacrifice or the holiday itself. IN present times since we do not have the sacrifice it obviously means the holiday.


Yes, but at that time, they had the sacrifice. Now for you, do you call the whole 7 days Passover? Technically Passover is just one day and the Feast of Unleavened Bread is 7 days, but even in the time of Christ the whole 7 days would be called either. Now, apparently (if I understand you correctly), it isn't even called the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It's just Passover.



I have not hear the term 'Feast of unleavened bread' anywhere outside of the NT.

Well it has been a couple of thousand years. :)

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 06:51 PM
:) At the Last Supper, Jesus took bread and blessed it. It doesn't specifically say that the bread was unleavened, but it is reasonable to expect that this was the case given the fact that leaven had to have been purged out of the house.
If the last supper was the night before Passover, it would have been permissible to have bread in the house. So it may in fact have been normal bread.


Some of the customs have changed since then, it would appear. Perhaps, perhaps.




Jews today probably keep Passover rather differently than they did in the time of Christ.
Unlikely. The Law is the Law, you know.



Yes, but at that time, they had the sacrifice. Now for you, do you call the whole 7 days Passover? Yes.


Technically Passover is just one day and the Feast of Unleavened Bread is 7 days,Why do you say this? Again, that's not a term I have heard outside the NT.


Now, apparently (if I understand you correctly), it isn't even called the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It's just Passover.Correct.





Well it has been a couple of thousand years. :)True, true.
Still, the Mishna was codified at the time and does not use the term either.

daughter
Mar 17th 2008, 07:00 PM
Now, apparently (if I understand you correctly), it isn't even called the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It's just Passover.

It's not called the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the the OT either, or not that I've noticed... I think the gospel accounts describing it as such are just being meticulously exact so Gentiles will understand a bit more what the Feast is about, but I'm not sure. The NT was aimed at gentiles, not Jews, so perhaps the language is different, because of the need to explain customs.

But I'm glad that Jesus didn't have the last supper on Passover. Because the Greek word for bread used refers to leavened, not unleavened bread, and if Jesus had eaten leavened bread (or I think any bread) on Passover, it would have been a sin.

So, I'm convinced now that the last supper was NOT held on Passover, though it may have taken the form of a passover meal. Jesus couldn't have eaten leavened bread on Passover, it would have been a sin. Therefore it wasn't Passover.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 07:09 PM
It's not called the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the the OT either, or not that I've noticed... I think the gospel accounts describing it as such are just being meticulously exact so Gentiles will understand a bit more what the Feast is about, but I'm not sure. The NT was aimed at gentiles, not Jews, so perhaps the language is different, because of the need to explain customs.
That is one possibility I suppose.

Tanya~
Mar 17th 2008, 08:00 PM
Jews today probably keep Passover rather differently than they did in the time of Christ.
Unlikely. The Law is the Law, you know.

I don't think the Law lays out the details of the Passover Seder as it is kept today. Also the specifics in the Law of how the lamb is treated from the time it is brought into the house on the 10th until the day it is killed on the 14th isn't done. Eating the lamb with bitter herbs and unleavened bread is specified but the other traditions were not part of the Torah.


The Law does use the term Unleavened Bread for the festival.

Ex 23:14-17

"Three times you shall keep a feast to Me in the year: 15 You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread (you shall eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt; none shall appear before Me empty); 16 and the Feast of Harvest, the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field; and the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you have gathered in the fruit of your labors from the field.

17 "Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord GOD.
NKJV

Deut 16:16-17

16 "Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God in the place which He chooses: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Tabernacles ; and they shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed. 17 Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD your God which He has given you.
NKJV


Ex 34:18
"The Feast of Unleavened Bread you shall keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, in the appointed time of the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.
NKJV


I concur that Unleavened Bread and Passover is the same. Thank you for helping me to get that straightened out Fenris.

My impression that the two were separate comes from this:

Lev 23:4-8
'These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the LORD's Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread . 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"
NKJV

But it is clear from the other passages that Passover itself is 7 days of unleavened bread.

I do think that there are some issues that show a difference between how things were done in the time of Christ vs. the Law. The Law commanded that leaven was to be removed from the dwellings on the first day of unleavened bread. But this would be considered work, and the first day was a holy convocation, so this work of cleaning out the leaven was done on the Preparation Day.

Ex 12:15-16
15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation for you. No manner of work shall be done on them; but that which everyone must eat — that only may be prepared by you.
NKJV

This is why, I believe, the Preparation Day was called "the first day of Unleavened Bread" in the NT.

Mark 14:12
Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?"
NKJV

Mark equates the "first day" with the day they killed the Passover, which was the Preparation day -- i.e., the day before the actual first day of Passover.

It might seem convoluted and confusing, but by then many things had been added to the Law and was put on the people as binding ordinances.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 08:21 PM
I don't think the Law lays out the details of the Passover Seder as it is kept today.No, that evolved. However, the laws of passover are the same.


Also the specifics in the Law of how the lamb is treated from the time it is brought into the house on the 10th until the day it is killed on the 14th isn't done. Eating the lamb with bitter herbs and unleavened bread is specified but the other traditions were not part of the Torah.True.



The Law does use the term Unleavened Bread for the festival.

Ex 23:14-17

"Three times you shall keep a feast to Me in the year: 15 You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread In Hebrew, it says 'Chag HaMatzos', which reads as 'Holiday of Matza', not 'feast of unleavened bread'.



I concur that Unleavened Bread and Passover is the same. Thank you for helping me to get that straightened out Fenris. Nooo problem!




I do think that there are some issues that show a difference between how things were done in the time of Christ vs. the Law. The Law commanded that leaven was to be removed from the dwellings on the first day of unleavened bread. But this would be considered work, and the first day was a holy convocation, so this work of cleaning out the leaven was done on the Preparation Day. Well, you're discounting the existence of the Oral Law. But that's really another topic. A lengthy one...




This is why, I believe, the Preparation Day was called "the first day of Unleavened Bread" in the NT.

Mark 14:12
Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?"
NKJVI understand where you're coming from.

I think it's incorrect, because no Jewish writings of the time use that terminology. But again, that is really another topic.




It might seem convoluted and confusing, but by then many things had been added to the Law and was put on the people as binding ordinances.

Well, from the Jewish perspective nothing had been added.

Tanya~
Mar 17th 2008, 08:44 PM
In Hebrew, it says 'Chag HaMatzos', which reads as 'Holiday of Matza', not 'feast of unleavened bread'.

This seems to be a semantic issue. I double-checked all the passages in the online JPS Torah, and the passages were translated into English the same way, as "Feast of Unleavened Bread." The Hebrew word Chag applies the same to the other two major observances of holy convocations-- Tabernacles and Weeks.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 09:02 PM
This seems to be a semantic issue. I double-checked all the passages in the online JPS Torah, and the passages were translated into English the same way, as "Feast of Unleavened Bread." The Hebrew word Chag applies the same to the other two major observances of holy convocations-- Tabernacles and Weeks.
Well, the JPS is just the KJV with the major mistakes corrected.

Still, I wonder how it reads in the Greek translation.

Tanya~
Mar 17th 2008, 09:14 PM
Well, the JPS is just the KJV with the major mistakes corrected.

What English translation of the Torah would you prefer?


Still, I wonder how it reads in the Greek translation.Do you mean the Septuagint, or the NT? I have the Greek NT interlinear. This verse:

Luke 22:1
Now the Feast (1859) of Unleavened Bread (106) drew near, which is called Passover.
NKJV


NT:1859
heorte (heh-or-tay'); of uncertain affinity; a festival:
KJV - feast, holyday.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


NT:106
azumos (ad'-zoo-mos); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and NT:2219; unleavened, i.e. (figuratively) uncorrupted; (in the neutral plural) specially (by implication) the Passover week:
KJV - unleavened (bread).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Looks like it is the equivalent of Chag HaMatzos. I would expect the Septuagint would have it the same way in the Torah.

daughter
Mar 17th 2008, 09:20 PM
Well, the JPS is just the KJV with the major mistakes corrected.

Still, I wonder how it reads in the Greek translation.
Do you want me to dig out my septuagint? (urgh...) I'll find out for you!

Fenris
Mar 17th 2008, 09:32 PM
What English translation of the Torah would you prefer?
There isn't a very good one online, I'm afraid.


Do you mean the Septuagint, or the NT? I have the Greek NT interlinear. This verse:

Luke 22:1
Now the Feast (1859) of Unleavened Bread (106) drew near, which is called Passover.
NKJV


NT:1859
heorte (heh-or-tay'); of uncertain affinity; a festival:
KJV - feast, holyday.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


NT:106
azumos (ad'-zoo-mos); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and NT:2219; unleavened, i.e. (figuratively) uncorrupted; (in the neutral plural) specially (by implication) the Passover week:
KJV - unleavened (bread).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Looks like it is the equivalent of Chag HaMatzos. I would expect the Septuagint would have it the same way in the Torah.

Well, then the translation from Greek to English is bad.

In the bible:
Passover is Chag HaMatzos.
Succot is Chag HaSuccot.

Would it then call Succot 'The feast of the Succah? What would that even mean?

Tanya~
Mar 17th 2008, 09:53 PM
Well, then the translation from Greek to English is bad.

In the bible:
Passover is Chag HaMatzos.
Succot is Chag HaSuccot.

Would it then call Succot 'The feast of the Succah? What would that even mean?

Oh, I see where the problem is. :) It is called a 'feast' but it doesn't mean the people are eating tabernacles. It is an appointed time of feasting and celebration -- i.e., a festival. They aren't eating the booths, but they are feasting and celebrating, and building the booths.

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 11:44 AM
Right, exactly.

The issue may not be the authors of the NT, but rather whoever translated the Greek to English.

Teke
Mar 18th 2008, 03:32 PM
Right, exactly.

The issue may not be the authors of the NT, but rather whoever translated the Greek to English.

It actually stems from the Koine Greek which translated "matzo" to "unleavened bread".

In English we would just say "flat bread". I notice the Jews make a hard one like a cracker and/or a soft one.

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 04:59 PM
It actually stems from the Koine Greek which translated "matzo" to "unleavened bread".

In English we would just say "flat bread". I notice the Jews make a hard one like a cracker and/or a soft one.
That isn't the word they got wrong.

Teke
Mar 18th 2008, 05:09 PM
That isn't the word they got wrong.

OK.....:dunno:, since you aren't posting on what word is wrong.

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 05:13 PM
OK.....:dunno:, since you aren't posting on what word is wrong.Read what I said earlier.

The word in Hebrew is 'holiday' not 'feast'.

Kahtar
Mar 18th 2008, 05:25 PM
Here's the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon on Chag
H2282
Strongs #2282: AHLB#: 1164-A (N)

1164) Ch% (Ch%HhG)ac: Feast co: Circle ab: Terror: The pictograph h is a picture of a wall representing outside. The c is a picture of a foot and represents a gathering. Combined these mean "outside gathering". The gathering together for a festival, usually in the form of a circle for dancing and feasting. (eng: hug - as an encircling; circ - an exchange of the h and c and the g and c; cog - an exchange of the h and c)
A) Ch% (Ch%HhG)ac: ? co: Feast ab: ?: The participants of a festival would gather together and dance in a circle.
Nm) Ch% (Ch%HhG) - Feast: [freq. 62] |kjv: feast, sacrifice| {str: 2282}
B) Cch% (Cch%HhGG)ac: ? co: Feast ab: ?: The participants of a festival would gather together and dance in a circle.
V) Cch% (Cch%Hh-GG) - Feast: [freq. 16] (vf: Paal) |kjv: keep, feast, celebrate, dance, holyday, reel to and fro| {str: 2287}
E) Ach% (Ach%HhGA)ac: ? co: ? ab: Terror: A spinning around in fear.
Nf) Ach% (Ach%Hh-GA) - Terror: [freq. 1] |kjv: terror| {str: 2283}
J) Cfh% (Cfh%HhWG)ac: ? co: Circle ab: ?
V) Cfh% (Cfh%HhWG) - Circle: [freq. 1] (vf: Paal) |kjv: compassed| {str: 2328}
Nm) Cfh% (Cfh%HhWG) - Circle: [freq. 3] |kjv: circle, circuit, compass| {str: 2329}
kf1) Ecfhm% (Ecfhm%M-HhW-GH) - Compass: An instrument for making a circle. [freq. 1] |kjv: compass| {str: 4230}
K) Fch% (Fch%HhGW)ac: ? co: Refuge ab: ?: A place where one is encircled by a wall.
Nm) Fch% (Fch%Hh-GW) - Cleft: A refuge in the rock. [freq. 3] |kjv: cleft| {str: 2288}

Tanya~
Mar 18th 2008, 05:27 PM
Fenris, it isn't incorrect to call a holiday or holy day or festival a 'feast.'

This entry on 'feast' at Dictionary.com at definition #4 defines it the way the English Bibles translate it. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feast

Also see the entry at Merriam Webster
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feast

RoadWarrior
Mar 18th 2008, 05:44 PM
Fenris, it isn't incorrect to call a holiday or holy day or festival a 'feast.'

This entry on 'feast' at Dictionary.com at definition #4 defines it the way the English Bibles translate it. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feast

Also see the entry at Merriam Webster
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feast

This section of your first link is especially helpful:

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/00-database-info?db=easton) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=feast&ia=easton) - Share This (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feast#sharethis)
Feast
as a mark of hospitality (Gen. 19:3; 2 Sam. 3:20; 2 Kings 6:23); on occasions of domestic joy (Luke 15:23; Gen. 21:8); on birthdays (Gen. 40:20; Job 1:4; Matt. 14:6); and on the occasion of a marriage (Judg. 14:10; Gen. 29:22). Feasting was a part of the observances connected with the offering up of sacrifices (Deut. 12:6, 7; 1 Sam. 9:19; 16:3, 5), and with the annual festivals (Deut. 16:11). "It was one of the designs of the greater solemnities, which required the attendance of the people at the sacred tent, that the oneness of the nation might be maintained and cemented together, by statedly congregating in one place, and with one soul taking part in the same religious services. But that oneness was primarily and chiefly a religious and not merely a political one; the people were not merely to meet as among themselves, but with Jehovah, and to present themselves before him as one body; the meeting was in its own nature a binding of themselves in fellowship with Jehovah; so that it was not politics and commerce that had here to do, but the soul of the Mosaic dispensation, the foundation of the religious and political existence of Israel, the covenant with Jehovah. To keep the people's consciousness alive to this, to revive, strengthen, and perpetuate it, nothing could be so well adapated as these annual feasts."

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 06:27 PM
The word for 'feast' in Hebrew is 'Seudah'.

Tanya~
Mar 18th 2008, 06:36 PM
This is what happens in translation. The use of the English word 'feast' in this context is a perfectly valid translation. Many words have different shades of meaning, and the English "feast" is like that.

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 06:46 PM
This is what happens in translation. The use of the English word 'feast' in this context is a perfectly valid translation. Many words have different shades of meaning, and the English "feast" is like that.Right. I guess there isn't much to argue about here.

It was written to be comprehensible to non-Jews (possibly even written by non-Jews). On top of that, something was lost in the original translation from Greek to English.

The terminology just sounded strange, which is why I commented on it in the first place.

RoadWarrior
Mar 18th 2008, 07:03 PM
Right. I guess there isn't much to argue about here.

It was written to be comprehensible to non-Jews (possibly even written by non-Jews). On top of that, something was lost in the original translation from Greek to English.

The terminology just sounded strange, which is why I commented on it in the first place.

Something is always lost in translation between languages! In this case, it may have gone from Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek to English. Whew! And languages change, they do not remain static.

It is good to think about it, though, the underlying meaning of feast or festival or holiday - "holy" day.

2Witnesses
Mar 18th 2008, 07:25 PM
Pardon me, but what on earth are you talking about? And how does it contribute to the original topic of this thread?

We're having a perfectly polite discussion on a Jewish holiday. What are you doing?

Fenris,

If 'all' we were talking about was a nice Jewish holi-day, then I would agree with you.

But Fenris, it is more than that at stake here! And clearly, you do not understand this. And you should be a teacher?

Of what Fenris? Dead traditions? Traditions which have life only by the stubborn rebellion of those who would blind Israel?

Repent Fenris! You are the blind making the blind to stumble in the way. You think you understand, but you know nothing!

2Witnesses

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 07:33 PM
Fenris,

If 'all' we were talking about was a nice Jewish holi-day, then I would agree with you.That is what we're talking about. Haven't you noticed the title of this thread?


But Fenris, it is more than that at stake here!Do tell.


And clearly, you do not understand this. And you should be a teacher?Why not? Is there someone here who knows more on the subject of Judaism than me? You, perhaps? :rolleyes:


Of what Fenris? Dead traditions?No, a live religion.


Traditions which have life only by the stubborn rebellion of those who would blind Israel?And who would that be? Those eeeevil rabbis? :lol:


Repent Fenris! You are the blind making the blind to stumble in the way. You think you understand, but you know nothing!
So not only am I bad, but anyone who reads this thread is being led astray too?

Maybe I'm afraid I'll be lonely in hell so I'm trying to get some company. :rofl:

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 07:44 PM
Maybe I'm afraid I'll be lonely in hell so I'm trying to get some company. :rofl:
Now you've given the game away Fenris... repent you lonely sinner you! :P

REPENNNNTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 07:46 PM
Now you've given the game away Fenris... repent you lonely sinner you! :P

REPENNNNTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't!!

I am doomed to repeat the evils of my ancestors! Doomed! DOOOOOOOOOOOMED!

2Witnesses
Mar 18th 2008, 07:49 PM
That is what we're talking about. Haven't you noticed the title of this thread?
Do tell.

Why not? Is there someone here who knows more on the subject of Judaism than me? You, perhaps? :rolleyes:

No, a live religion.
And who would that be? Those eeeevil rabbis? :lol:


So not only am I bad, but anyone who reads this thread is being led astray too?

Maybe I'm afraid I'll be lonely in hell so I'm trying to get some company. :rofl:

Whatever Fenris!

I am sure you will have company enough! But what is sad, is you joke. I hav prayed for your soul. And I will continue to do so. But tonight you will feel His hand.

2Witnesses

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 07:51 PM
Whatever Fenris!

I am sure you will have company enough! But what is sad, is you joke. I hav prayed for your soul. And I will continue to do so. But tonight you will feel His hand.

2Witnesses
Giving you a good spanking Fenris. You've been warned... that's what you get for killing the Messiah you know. :mad::lol:

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 07:53 PM
I am sure you will have company enough!Awesome!

Do you think Hitler and his buddies will be down there? I think that would be pretty ironic. Y'know, Hitler and his victims going to the same place after death...


But what is sad, is you joke. I hav prayed for your soul. And I will continue to do so. But tonight you will feel His hand.
God is gonna smack me? For what, speaking of the holidays He put in the bible?

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 07:55 PM
Giving you a good spanking Fenris. You've been warned... that's what you get for killing the Messiah you know. :mad::lol:I was in that angry mob calling for his blood. I was Angry Jewish Guy #4413, near the back.

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 07:58 PM
And you know what? It was one of my Gentile ancestors nailed Him to the cross... and then we got really wicked and said it was the Jews who did it. We just like beating on Jews it seems... must be in the blood.

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 07:59 PM
And you know what? It was one of my Gentile ancestors nailed Him to the cross... and then we got really wicked and said it was the Jews who did it. We just like beating on Jews it seems... must be in the blood.
Ahhh don't be that way. :hug:

We are all God's children.

2Witnesses
Mar 18th 2008, 08:00 PM
Awesome!

Do you think Hitler and his buddies will be down there? I think that would be pretty ironic. Y'know, Hitler and his victims going to the same place after death...

God is gonna smack me? For what, speaking of the holidays He put in the bible?


Fenris,

Upon WHAT basis do you think yourself more holy than Hitler?

And Daughter, The Jewish 'authorities' are held MORE accountable than those stupid goyim!

2Witnesses

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 08:02 PM
Fenris,

Upon WHAT basis do you think yourself more holy than Hitler?Uhh, on the basis that I didn't murder millions of innocents and causing massive human suffering.

But maybe God is stupid and can't tell the difference?


And Daughter, The Jewish 'authorities' are held MORE accountable than those stupid goyim!Pardon me, what are 'stupid goyim'?

2Witnesses
Mar 18th 2008, 08:06 PM
Uhh, on the basis that I didn't murder millions of innocents and causing massive human suffering.

But maybe God is stupid and can't tell the difference?
Pardon me, what are 'stupid goyim'?

If your put one in hell. Is it worse that you one 2, or 6 million in hell? 'Stupid goyim[, to her it means what part do the non-jew have in his death. Ask her?: Why bother me?

2Witnesses

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 08:08 PM
Fenris,

Upon WHAT basis do you think yourself more holy than Hitler?

And Daughter, The Jewish 'authorities' are held MORE accountable than those stupid goyim!

2Witnesses
The Jewish "authorities" were an extremely small minority, and I think you'll find that Fenris isn't one of them. Fenris, you're sure that you're not secretly Caiphas? No?

Okay, we've got that cleared up.

The majority of the folks who knew Jesus supported Him, He had crowds following Him. The people at Passover were pilgrims who'd never seen His miracles, or heard His preaching. They can't be considered as guilty, considering He hadn't revealed Himself to them.

The people who rejoiced when He entered Jerusalem WERE ALL JEWS. Whatever the church may have taught you, the Jews as a people didn't kill Jesus, WE DID. And by that I mean all of us, including you 2Witnesses. You're standing here saying that Fenris is blind... for what? Because he helps us understand God's feasts?

Jesus Himself says, that whoever teaches anyone to follow the least of these commandments (from Torah) will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So what, exactly, has Fenris done wrong in helping us understand Passover in a deeper way?

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 08:10 PM
If your put one in hell. Is it worse that you one 2, or 6 million in hell? I know you're trying to tell me something important here, but I don't understand what...:hmm:



Stupid goyim[, to her it means what part do the non-jew have in his death.
I understand Jesus was crucified by Romans, who were non-Jews. :o

I also understand in a broader sense that all of mankind's sins were responsible for Jesus's death.

But I'm just a stupid Jew, what do I know?

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 08:10 PM
If your put one in hell. Is it worse that you one 2, or 6 million in hell? 'Stupid goyim[, to her it means what part do the non-jew have in his death. Ask her?: Why bother me?

2Witnesses
Non Jews whipped Him, non Jews spat at Him, mocked at Him, gambled for His clothes.

Non Jews held Him down, and put nails through His hands and feet.

2Witnesses
Mar 18th 2008, 08:19 PM
The Jewish "authorities" were an extremely small minority, and I think you'll find that Fenris isn't one of them. Fenris, you're sure that you're not secretly Caiphas? No?

Okay, we've got that cleared up.

The majority of the folks who knew Jesus supported Him, He had crowds following Him. The people at Passover were pilgrims who'd never seen His miracles, or heard His preaching. They can't be considered as guilty, considering He hadn't revealed Himself to them.

The people who rejoiced when He entered Jerusalem WERE ALL JEWS. Whatever the church may have taught you, the Jews as a people didn't kill Jesus, WE DID. And by that I mean all of us, including you 2Witnesses. You're standing here saying that Fenris is blind... for what? Because he helps us understand God's feasts?

Jesus Himself says, that whoever teaches anyone to follow the least of these commandments (from Torah) will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So what, exactly, has Fenris done wrong in helping us understand Passover in a deeper way?

Daughter,

He has helped us understand nothing! He speaks of what he knows. He speaks death! But if he knew what those things pointed to, I would call him wise!

You are carried away by Him because he called himself a Jew. But flesh is nothing!

He is no better than any Hitler because Hitler hated so many. For to kill a person is to kill a people!

I am sure Fenris is not guilty of murder. But yes, to the degree he agreed with the 'authorities' that yeshua should die because he offended then known Jewish 'truth', then yes, Fenris has murdered!

2Witnesses

Kahtar
Mar 18th 2008, 08:22 PM
Not my forum, of course, but 2W, you MIGHT want to take a look at the rules of this forum.

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 08:24 PM
He speaks of what he knows... yes.

He's no better than Hitler? Wow, you're insane. I'm not going to bother talking to you again.

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 08:27 PM
Daughter,

He has helped us understand nothing! He speaks of what he knows. He speaks death!
I just got the mental image of grampa Simpson seeing death everywhere. From season 6:

Grampa: "Death stalks you at every turn!"

Lisa: "Grampa!"

Grampa: "Well, it does. Aaah! Death! There it is. Death!"

Lisa: "It's only Maggie."

Grampa: " Oh, yeah. You know, at my age, the mind starts playing tricks. So, aaah! Death!"

Lisa: "That's only the cat."

Grampa: "Oh. Aah! Death!"

Lisa: "That's Maggie again, Grampa."

Grampa: "Oh. Where were we? Death!"

:rofl:



He is no better than any Hitler because Hitler hated so many. For to kill a person is to kill a people!

I am sure Fenris is not guilty of murder. But yes, to the degree he agreed with the 'authorities' that yeshua should die because he offended then known Jewish 'truth', then yes, Fenris has murdered!

2WitnessesActually, from my understanding Jesus did nothing to merit a death penalty.

But let's check out this logic. Because I don't believe Jesus was God, it's as if I killed him.

Isn't that really what it's all about, to you? It's not about who killed Jesus (the Romans) but about who didn't believe he was God (the Jews). That's really why you're mad at me now, isn't it? :hmm:

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 08:29 PM
Hey Fenris... you've just hit on something very sinister here, and you've given yourself away again.

You do know that Grandpa Simpson is called Abraham don't you?

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 08:31 PM
Hey Fenris... you've just hit on something very sinister here, and you've given yourself away again.

You do know that Grandpa Simpson is called Abraham don't you?Whoa. I mean, Whoa :o

Sometimes I even surprise myself.

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 08:38 PM
You know, Lisa is probably Jewish as well, Fenris... I mean, when Homer tries to eat pig at a barbeque with a Christian neighbour, she sends the porcine centre piece flying through the air...

Yup, the Simpsons are Jewish. No wonder they don't get on with Ned!

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 08:47 PM
You know, Lisa is probably Jewish as well, Fenris... I mean, when Homer tries to eat pig at a barbeque with a Christian neighbour, she sends the porcine centre piece flying through the air... Yeah, that was so cool :lol:

Also, she debated talmud with rabbi Krustovsky.

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 08:57 PM
So did Bart, as I recall...

You know, you and my son would get on. You are repositories of Simpson's wisdom.

ARGH DEATH!!!

Don't do this to me again, my son is still doing Grandpa Simpson impersonations!

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 09:09 PM
While we're at it, why did the chicken cross the road?I'm so glad you asked!!

WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD?


Plato: For the greater good.

Karl Marx: It was a historical inevitability.

Machiavelli: So that its subjects will view it with admiration,
as a chicken which has the daring and courage to
boldly cross the road, but also with fear, for whom
among them has the strength to contend with such a
paragon of avian virtue? In such a manner is the
princely chicken's dominion maintained.

Hippocrates: Because of an excess of light pink gooey stuff in its
pancreas.

Jacques Derrida: Any number of contending discourses may be discovered
within the act of the chicken crossing the road, and
each interpretation is equally valid as the authorial
intent can never be discerned, because structuralism
is DEAD, DAMMIT, DEAD!

Thomas de Torquemada: Give me ten minutes with the chicken and I'll find out.

Timothy Leary: Because that's the only kind of trip the Establishment
would let it take.

Douglas Adams: Forty-two.

Nietzsche: Because if you gaze too long across the Road, the Road
gazes also across you.

Oliver North: National Security was at stake.

B.F. Skinner: Because the external influences which had pervaded its
sensorium from birth had caused it to develop in such a
fashion that it would tend to cross roads, even while
believing these actions to be of its own free will.

Carl Jung: The confluence of events in the cultural gestalt
necessitated that individual chickens cross roads at
this historical juncture, and therefore
synchronicitously brought such occurrences into being.

Jean-Paul Sartre: In order to act in good faith and be true to itself,
the chicken found it necessary to cross the road.

Ludwig Wittgenstein: The possibility of "crossing" was encoded into the
objects "chicken" and "road", and circumstances came
into being which caused the actualization of this
potential occurrence.

Albert Einstein: Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road crossed
the chicken depends upon your frame of reference.

Aristotle: To actualize its potential.

Buddha: If you ask this question, you deny your own chicken-
nature.

Howard Cosell: It may very well have been one of the most astonishing
events to grace the annals of history. An historic,
unprecedented avian biped with the temerity to attempt
such an herculean achievement formerly relegated to
homo sapien pedestrians is truly a remarkable occurence.

Salvador Dali: The Fish.

Darwin: It was the logical next step after coming down from
the trees.

Emily Dickinson: Because it could not stop for death.

Epicurus: For fun.

Ralph Waldo Emerson: It didn't cross the road; it transcended it.

Johann von Goethe: The eternal hen-principle made it do it.

Ernest Hemingway: To die. In the rain.

Werner Heisenberg: We are not sure which side of the road the chicken
was on, but it was moving very fast.

David Hume: Out of custom and habit.

Jack Nicholson: 'Cause it (censored) wanted to. That's the (censored)
reason.

Pyrrho the Skeptic: What road?

Ronald Reagan: I forget.

John Sununu: The Air Force was only too happy to provide the
transportation, so quite understandably the chicken
availed himself of the opportunity.

The Sphinx: You tell me.

Mr. T: If you saw me coming you'd cross the road too!

Henry David Thoreau: To live deliberately ... and suck all the marrow
out of life.

Mark Twain: The news of its crossing has been greatly exaggerated.

Molly Yard: It was a hen!

Zeno of Elea: To prove it could never reach the other side.

Chaucer: So priketh hem nature in hir corages.

Wordsworth: To wander lonely as a cloud.

The Godfather: I didn't want its mother to see it like that.

Keats: Philosophy will clip a chicken's wings.

Blake: To see heaven in a wild fowl.

Othello: Jealousy.

Dr Johnson: Sir, had you known the Chicken for as long as I have,
you would not so readily enquire, but feel rather the
Need to resist such a public Display of your own
lamentable and incorrigible Ignorance.

Mrs Thatcher: This chicken's not for turning.

Supreme Soviet: There has never been a chicken in this photograph.

Oscar Wilde: Why, indeed? One's social engagements whilst in
town ought never expose one to such barbarous
inconvenience - although, perhaps, if one must cross a
road, one may do far worse than to cross it as the
chicken in question.

Kafka: Hardly the most urgent enquiry to make of a low-grade
insurance clerk who woke up that morning as a hen.

Swift: It is, of course, inevitable that such a loathsome,
filth-ridden and degraded creature as Man should assume
to question the actions of one in all respects his
superior.

Macbeth: To have turned back were as tedious as to go o'er.

Whitehead: Clearly, having fallen victim to the fallacy of
misplaced concreteness.

Freud: An die andere Seite zu kommen. (Much laughter)

Hamlet: That is not the question.

Donne: It crosseth for thee.

2Witnesses
Mar 18th 2008, 09:32 PM
I could say,''

I, I have not lived,

Till another love

Nor loves garden's tilled,

TILL by another loved.

2Witnesses

Kahtar
Mar 18th 2008, 09:34 PM
So what happened to the discussion of Passover?

RoadWarrior
Mar 18th 2008, 09:50 PM
It must have been a great day for hijacking. :rolleyes:

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 09:52 PM
I'll be in Israel for passover, God willing.

RoadWarrior
Mar 18th 2008, 09:54 PM
I'll be in Israel for passover, God willing.

That's cool Fenris. I bet it will be really special ...

So the prayer - "next year in Jerusalem" - you won't have to say that one will you?

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 09:55 PM
That's cool Fenris. I bet it will be really special ... I expect it will be, yes.


So the prayer - "next year in Jerusalem" - you won't have to say that one will you?

No, we still say it.

The Temple is still in ruins. We are still not welcome at our Father's table.

Teke
Mar 18th 2008, 09:56 PM
I'll still be on a fast for Passover.

RoadWarrior
Mar 18th 2008, 09:58 PM
..

The Temple is still in ruins. We are still not welcome at our Father's table.

So, that prayer means more than just for the family and friends gathered together wherever they are. Could you elaborate on what it really means? Also, what does "our Father's table" mean?

Thanks.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 12:55 AM
I've been out of town for two days and in the hotel I only replied to threads I'd already subscribed to so I just saw this one as I was catching up today. This will be my 6th year celebrating the Passover and one thing I would share with someone just beginning is this, be sure to separate what is traditionally important from what is biblically important. In no way am I making any judgment concerning someone else's Seder. In our first two years we tried very hard to follow it the way the Jews traditionally celebrated and felt just a bit overwhelmed. By the third year we decided to go to scripture for direction. Rather than focusing so much on following a script, we allowed the Lord to lead us. At this point there are some things from tradition that we have incorporated into our Seder and somethings that we have not. Like Fenris has said, we have many visitors during the week and everyone enjoys it. ;)

God Bless!

RoadWarrior
Mar 19th 2008, 01:11 AM
I've been out of town for two days and in the hotel I only replied to threads I'd already subscribed to so I just saw this one as I was catching up today. This will be my 6th year celebrating the Passover and one thing I would share with someone just beginning is this, be sure to separate what is traditionally important from what is biblically important. In no way am I making any judgment concerning someone else's Seder. In our first two years we tried very hard to follow it the way the Jews traditionally celebrated and felt just a bit overwhelmed. By the third year we decided to go to scripture for direction. Rather than focusing so much on following a script, we allowed the Lord to lead us. At this point there are some things from tradition that we have incorporated into our Seder and somethings that we have not. Like Fenris has said, we have many visitors during the week and everyone enjoys it. ;)

God Bless!

Thanks Studyin! That's exactly what I hope to do - find the parts that are Biblically important, and understand why they are. Even if people do not actively celebrate Passover, I think we all could benefit from understanding it better.

Fenris
Mar 19th 2008, 11:58 AM
So, that prayer means more than just for the family and friends gathered together wherever they are. Could you elaborate on what it really means?
It's not simply about being in a geographic location. It's about us being in Jerusalem to celebrate the holiday the way it was in biblical times. Which won't happen until the messianic era when the Temple is rebuilt.


Also, what does "our Father's table" mean?

Thanks.

I'm using it as an analogy. For our misdeeds, God has banished us. He has not yet invited us back. Although given the existence of the modern-day state of Israel, I would say we are seeing the beginning of the final redemption.

Fenris
Mar 19th 2008, 11:59 AM
Like Fenris has said, we have many visitors during the week and everyone enjoys it. ;)

God Bless!
That's awesome!

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 01:01 PM
I'm using it as an analogy. For our misdeeds, God has banished us. He has not yet invited us back. Although given the existence of the modern-day state of Israel, I would say we are seeing the beginning of the final redemption.Maybe, the invitation wasn't accepted yet, so others have been invited. :D I know you may not see it this way but this is a parable Yeshua taught about a man who gave a banquet but because those initially invited did not come others were invited. I believe you will eventually recognize that the invitation has been there for all this time and come to 'our Father's table'! :pp

God Bless!

Fenris
Mar 19th 2008, 01:31 PM
Maybe, the invitation wasn't accepted yet, so others have been invited.
There are very many things wrong with this statement, but in the interest of peace and mutual respect I shall leave it be. :hug:

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 01:46 PM
There are very many things wrong with this statement, but in the interest of peace and mutual respect I shall leave it be. :hug:The invitation of those outside the house of Israel was not to the exclusion of those inside so I was in no way insinuating that any 'invitations' had been rescinded or anything like that. I was just noticing the language in your response to RoadWarrior that reminded me of the parable. So, in the interest of peace and mutual respect, I was attempting to share our perspective of having been invited. ;) You may have heard followers of Yeshua speak of having a personal relationship with God. Well, that stems from being 'invited' back into His presence.

Paul warns believers NOT to boast against Israel and not to think God has cast away His people.

Romans 11:1-2a & 11
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

So, I hope you can see that the statement was not intended as anything negative, but rather as you had shared that you had not felt invited back to the table, I was sharing that we feel we have been invited....AND you have too! :D

God Bless!

Fenris
Mar 19th 2008, 01:52 PM
The invitation of those outside the house of Israel was not to the exclusion of those inside so I was in no way insinuating that any 'invitations' had been rescinded or anything like that.
That isn't something that I disagree with. Jews have never believed that we had exclusive rights to God, as it were.



So, I hope you can see that the statement was not intended as anything negative, but rather as you had shared that you had not felt invited back to the table, I was sharing that we feel we have been invited....AND you have too! :D

God Bless!Isaiah 56:7 . . . for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

When the Temple is rebuilt, all will be welcome to commune with God there. But that has not yet happened. As I said, we are still banished.

May it happen speedily in our day.

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 01:54 PM
In our Father's house are many mansions... (well, that's a poor translation, but you know what I mean...)

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 02:01 PM
I understand your pov, Fenris, and do indeed join with you in praying for complete fulfillment of ALL things prophesied. :pray:

Bless you my token Jewish guy friend! :D

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 02:04 PM
Bless you my token Jewish guy friend! :D
That makes two Jewish guys you have for friends... counting Jesus! (Now I've got "what a friend I have in Jesus" going through my head... yesterday it was grandpa from the Simpsons. I'm going to have stop visiting this thread! Oh, the voices!)

Fenris
Mar 19th 2008, 02:06 PM
I understand your pov, Fenris, and do indeed join with you in praying for complete fulfillment of ALL things prophesied. :pray:
Amen.


Bless you my token Jewish guy friend! :D

Bless you, my distant cousin.

Fenris
Mar 19th 2008, 02:07 PM
Oh, the voices!
We're all just jealous that the voices don't speak to us too!

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 02:07 PM
That makes two Jewish guys you have for friends... counting Jesus! (Now I've got "what a friend I have in Jesus" going through my head... yesterday it was grandpa from the Simpsons. I'm going to have stop visiting this thread! Oh, the voices!)Actually, I have more than just two. I was just referencing his 'Token Jewish guy' title under his username. :D As for the voices in your head, you may want to get that checked out by a professional. :lol:

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 02:08 PM
The voices tell me not to...

Teke
Mar 19th 2008, 02:32 PM
It's not simply about being in a geographic location. It's about us being in Jerusalem to celebrate the holiday the way it was in biblical times. Which won't happen until the messianic era when the Temple is rebuilt.


I'm using it as an analogy. For our misdeeds, God has banished us. He has not yet invited us back. Although given the existence of the modern-day state of Israel, I would say we are seeing the beginning of the final redemption.

If your going to Jerusalem this year for Passover, you should visit the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem for Pascha (midnight April 26). Experience (miraculous) what God is doing in the Messianic era.;)

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 04:58 PM
Would that be safe for Fenris? I mean, I know that Jews aren't allowed everywhere in Israel. I heard about a demand made by some Muslim clerics that Jews not be allowed to pray at the tombs of the Patriarchs, and there's been hell to pay if they've been seen moving their lips.

I mean, seriously... :rolleyes:

diffangle
Mar 19th 2008, 05:06 PM
Would that be safe for Fenris? I mean, I know that Jews aren't allowed everywhere in Israel. I heard about a demand made by some Muslim clerics that Jews not be allowed to pray at the tombs of the Patriarchs, and there's been hell to pay if they've been seen moving their lips.

I mean, seriously... :rolleyes:
Yeah that same rule applies to the Temple mount too. :(

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 05:09 PM
They must be pretty scared of the power of prayer then... what, they think if enough Jews pray then God's going to turn up in a spaceship or something? :lol::pray::pray::pray:

Teke
Mar 19th 2008, 05:44 PM
Would that be safe for Fenris? I mean, I know that Jews aren't allowed everywhere in Israel. I heard about a demand made by some Muslim clerics that Jews not be allowed to pray at the tombs of the Patriarchs, and there's been hell to pay if they've been seen moving their lips.

I mean, seriously... :rolleyes:

Jews are allowed there. The Jews who live there, from what I've heard, lock themselves in their homes because they do not want to behold the Holy Fire which proceeds from the Sepulchre. I don't know why, unless they are as they were in the wilderness, afraid of God.

It is quite an event. Peoples from all nations and tongues are present to praise God and witness His miracle of what is known as the "Holy Fire".
The authorities there keep things orderly. As that day is an all day affair of prayers.

The Muslims carry on quite a bit, but they become worn out and quiet down after some time, especially by midnight. But all, including Muslims, praise God when they behold the miracle which happens there each year.

Personally I haven't had the opportunity of experiencing it in person, but have watched videos done by those who attended. It is quite wonderful. :pray:

Fenris
Mar 19th 2008, 05:54 PM
Jews are allowed there. The Jews who live there, from what I've heard, lock themselves in their homes because they do not want to behold the Holy Fire which proceeds from the Sepulchre. I don't know why, unless they are as they were in the wilderness, afraid of God.

Gee, has anyone caught this event on camera? :rolleyes:

Jews don't deny Jesus's divinity out of willful ignorance. We simply believe differently than you do. I know it would be comforting to believe that we're intentionally denying the truth, because it would explain what happened 20 centuries ago. But that isn't what's happening.

Ta-An
Mar 19th 2008, 06:32 PM
Jews are allowed there. The Jews who live there, from what I've heard, lock themselves in their homes because they do not want to behold the Holy Fire which proceeds from the Sepulchre. I don't know why, unless they are as they were in the wilderness, afraid of God.

:hmm: ,

I have been in Israel over this time of the year..... and it was quite quiet.


...but not over Passover yet...... just not yet....

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 07:20 PM
If your going to Jerusalem this year for Passover, you should visit the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem for Pascha (midnight April 26). Experience (miraculous) what God is doing in the Messianic era.;)No offense, Teke, if you believe God schedules this yearly 'miracle' fine, but I question such a thing that only one person witnesses and that seems so against what scripture shows us. God does not perform parlor tricks like some sort of performer. BTW, after watching the crowds of people pushing and shoving here in the following video http://videos.howstuffworks.com/reuters/1743-holy-fire-ceremony-in-jerusalem-video.htm, I can see why the residents would lock themselves up to avoid the melee.

God Bless!

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 07:41 PM
Jews are allowed there. The Jews who live there, from what I've heard, lock themselves in their homes because they do not want to behold the Holy Fire which proceeds from the Sepulchre. I don't know why, unless they are as they were in the wilderness, afraid of God.

It is quite an event. Peoples from all nations and tongues are present to praise God and witness His miracle of what is known as the "Holy Fire".
The authorities there keep things orderly. As that day is an all day affair of prayers.

The Muslims carry on quite a bit, but they become worn out and quiet down after some time, especially by midnight. But all, including Muslims, praise God when they behold the miracle which happens there each year.

Personally I haven't had the opportunity of experiencing it in person, but have watched videos done by those who attended. It is quite wonderful. :pray:
Well, I've had an aunty there, a devout Christian, and she came back rather disappointed... this is forty odd years ago. (Before I was born, maybe it's changed since!) But she said to me about this, when I was maybe ten or so, "it was a lot of folks hysterical at the front, and the rest of us didn't like it. It was like one of them seances, the people who wanted to believe it did."

I don't need to experience it in person to believe in God, and I don't think that Jews are any more likely to hide themselves from God than any other people group. Sounds a bit weird to me.

diffangle
Mar 19th 2008, 11:08 PM
No offense, Teke, if you believe God schedules this yearly 'miracle' fine, but I question such a thing that only one person witnesses and that seems so against what scripture shows us. God does not perform parlor tricks like some sort of performer. BTW, after watching the crowds of people pushing and shoving here in the following video http://videos.howstuffworks.com/reuters/1743-holy-fire-ceremony-in-jerusalem-video.htm, I can see why the residents would lock themselves up to avoid the melee.

God Bless!
It reminds me of these verses...

Mat 12:38 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=12&v=38&t=KJV#38)Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

Mat 12:39 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=12&v=39&t=KJV#39)
But He answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 12:02 PM
It reminds me of these verses...

Mat 12:38 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=12&v=38&t=KJV#38)Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

Mat 12:39 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=12&v=39&t=KJV#39)
But He answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: I don't see anything wrong with this. If someone claims to be the messiah, fine. Prove it.

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 12:06 PM
Gee, has anyone caught this event on camera?


Yes, there are many who have filmed it. I've talked with those who have filmed and witnessed it.

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 12:17 PM
No offense, Teke, if you believe God schedules this yearly 'miracle' fine, but I question such a thing that only one person witnesses and that seems so against what scripture shows us. God does not perform parlor tricks like some sort of performer. BTW, after watching the crowds of people pushing and shoving here in the following video http://videos.howstuffworks.com/reuters/1743-holy-fire-ceremony-in-jerusalem-video.htm, I can see why the residents would lock themselves up to avoid the melee.

God Bless!

Well, not only one person witnesses such. For better info read the holyfire.org site.

As for the crowds, hey, that's Jerusalem all the time. Especially if anything is going on. Christians carry the cross through town on Good Friday, and it's the same with the crowds. Muslims and Jews spit on them as they pass by. The Muslims are more vocal than most in their hollering out obscenities.

If it's to much for you, I understand. You also wouldn't want to see the eastern Christians performing exorcisms on the Muslims there in the eastern nations.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 12:20 PM
Yes, there are many who have filmed it. I've talked with those who have filmed and witnessed it.Where's the film? I really must see this modern day miracle. I'm sure if you could present it on the forums here there'd be mass conversions to the Orthodox church.

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 12:22 PM
Well, I've had an aunty there, a devout Christian, and she came back rather disappointed... this is forty odd years ago. (Before I was born, maybe it's changed since!) But she said to me about this, when I was maybe ten or so, "it was a lot of folks hysterical at the front, and the rest of us didn't like it. It was like one of them seances, the people who wanted to believe it did."

I don't need to experience it in person to believe in God, and I don't think that Jews are any more likely to hide themselves from God than any other people group. Sounds a bit weird to me.

Some of us believe in miracles, others don't. Personally I began to believe in miracles when God healed me of cancer some years ago. The heat which permeated me during the healing was surreal.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 12:26 PM
Some of us believe in miracles, others don't.
The word in Hebrew for miracle is 'Nes' which literally means 'banner'.

A miracle isn't something one has to believe in. It's a banner; it's obvious to all who witness it.

If it only appears to believers then it isn't a miracle.

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 12:28 PM
Well, it will be fun this year. It's Purim tomorrow... A more directly contrary festival to Good Friday I can't think of!

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 12:31 PM
Well, it will be fun this year. It's Purim tomorrow... A more directly contrary festival to Good Friday I can't think of!There will be much rejoicing. Yaaay! (Monty Python refrence:lol:)

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 12:31 PM
Well, not only one person witnesses such. For better info read the holyfire.org site.No, Teke. Only the 'patriarch' of Jerusalem sees the fire 'miraculously' come while he is in the catacomb ALONE! Then he comes out and has torch that God supposedly lit in the catacomb. Then everyone else begins to light their candles and torches from this fire. So, only ONE sees the 'miracle'. ;)

As for believing in miracles, I absolutely do! I have SEEN miracles in my life and in the lives of others. So, no, this is not about either believing or not believing in miracles. It is about not being a generation that has to see a sign since Yeshua clearly says that the only sign will be the sign of Jonah. I do read about many who will perform signs and wonders in the latter days, but those scriptures are speaking of false prophets. As, I said, if you believe it, that's your choice but after doing some research, it is not something I would hang my hat on. :no:

God Bless!

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 12:32 PM
Where's the film? I really must see this modern day miracle. I'm sure if you could present it on the forums here there'd be mass conversions to the Orthodox church.

I wouldn't expect mass conversions to Orthodoxy. :cool: They are not evangelicals. Like Jews we don't proselytize. And any of what one would term as evangelism is done in the manner Paul did it, where people are that want to learn something. ie. colleges, universities, public gatherings for speakers
IOW Orthodoxy is not like Protestantism or Evangelicals.

As to film, I recall seeing some good clips on You Tube (think I posted some before), if you want to check it out some more.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 12:36 PM
I don't see anything wrong with this. If someone claims to be the messiah, fine. Prove it.That He did! He told them what the sign would be, and so, He was in the grave for three days and then He rose from that grave. All they would have needed to do would be to produce a tomb with His body to dispel that sign yet in 2000 years no grave has been produced. ;)

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 12:40 PM
No, Teke. Only the 'patriarch' of Jerusalem sees the fire 'miraculously' come while he is in the catacomb ALONE! Then he comes out and has torch that God supposedly lit in the catacomb. Then everyone else begins to light their candles and torches from this fire. So, only ONE sees the 'miracle'. ;)


People I've talked with have witnessed the fire come out of the catacomb and light the candles in the church as well as some of the pilgrims candles. They said you can touch it and not be burned for the first few minutes, while it's a bluish light, it then becomes like a regular flame of fire.

So the Patriarch of Jerusalem may be the only one who sees it first come out of the slab of rock in the catacomb (cause he is the only one in there), but the fire does what it wills, the Patriarch isn't directing it all over the place.

But I do understand your skepticism, there have been skeptics for hundreds of years. That hasn't stopped it from happening yet. ;)

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 12:52 PM
That He did! He told them what the sign would be, and so, He was in the grave for three days and then He rose from that grave. Umm but again, he only appeared to those who already believed. So obviously this was not going to convince those people who doubted him in the first place.

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 12:52 PM
Some of us believe in miracles, others don't. Personally I began to believe in miracles when God healed me of cancer some years ago. The heat which permeated me during the healing was surreal.
I believe in miracles. My husband and I had a very personal, intimate, and utterly undeniable miracle in our own lives, which utterly threw him, because at the time he was an athiest.

I'm just not certain if I believe in miracles occurring to the clock like that.

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 12:54 PM
The word in Hebrew for miracle is 'Nes' which literally means 'banner'.

A miracle isn't something one has to believe in. It's a banner; it's obvious to all who witness it.

If it only appears to believers then it isn't a miracle.
Heh, that's interesting... My son has been making a keyring in metal work at school, and the words he's painstakingly hammering into it are, "his banner over me is love."

Is it the same word, and if so, is that the miracle? Love?

We need another thread... on miracles!

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 01:10 PM
Umm but again, he only appeared to those who already believed. So obviously this was not going to convince those people who doubted him in the first place.No, He also appeared to Saul who was NOT a believer before He saw Him on the road to Damascus. I also want to mention that it is not so much who He appeared to but rather who was not able to simply produce a grave.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 01:17 PM
No, He also appeared to Saul who was NOT a believer before He saw Him on the road to Damascus. Saul was not one of his contemporaries, who doubted him in his lifetime. Also, Saul saw him alone. If he really wanted to 'stick it' to the rabbis he should have appeared to them.


I also want to mention that it is not so much who He appeared to but rather who was not able to simply produce a grave.

Well, since it's 2000 years in the past it's doubtful that we'll find one now. Was anyone looking for a body in a grave at that time?

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 01:26 PM
Saul was not one of his contemporaries, who doubted him in his lifetime. Also, Saul saw him alone. If he really wanted to 'stick it' to the rabbis he should have appeared to them.

Well, since it's 2000 years in the past it's doubtful that we'll find one now. Was anyone looking for a body in a grave at that time?I don't think it is God's intention to 'stick it' to the rabbis. Let us not forget that He loves Jacob. ;) As for them looking for the grave, well, if they weren't and they REALLY believed He was buried somewhere, that would have been the simplest way to squash this young movement. But I believe we are derail the thread once again. :D Let's leave it as, I believe He indeed did show the sign that He had promised, you can believe what you like.

God Bless!

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 01:29 PM
I read a book which convinced me that Jesus rose from the dead, called "Who moved the stone", which very carefully and painstakingly goes over the possiblities. It's a bit old fashioned, but the guy who wrote it was originally an athiest, a trained historian, who was very frustrated with the continued belief that Jesus rose from the dead... so he decided to write a book to disprove it. Part way through his research he had a crises of faith/intellect, and realised he couldn't write the book he'd originally intended to. The book may not convince you, but it should help you understand why some are convinced. A few evangelicals don't like it by the way... he thinks some of the gospel accounts are later fabrications. But he approaches the grave where Jesus isn't like the scene of a crime, and examines all the possibilities. I think he's intellectually honest, though I imagine his colleagues, family etc were shocked by his conclusions.

This thread has gone WAY off the passover!

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 01:30 PM
I don't think it is God's intention to 'stick it' to the rabbis. Let us not forget that He loves Jacob. ;)
Then he should have appeared to the rabbis to show them the error of their ways.


As for them looking for the grave, well, if they weren't and they REALLY believed He was buried somewhere, that would have been the simplest way to squash this young movement.Unless it wasn't a major movement at the time.


But I believe we are derail the thread once again. :D What else is new? :lol:


Let's leave it as, I believe He indeed did show the sign that He had promised, you can believe what you like.

God Bless!

Well again, a miracle is something obvious. Someone who believed in Jesus telling me that he saw him rise form the dead does not fit that category.

diffangle
Mar 20th 2008, 01:38 PM
Saul was not one of his contemporaries, who doubted him in his lifetime. Also, Saul saw him alone. If he really wanted to 'stick it' to the rabbis he should have appeared to them.


Paul was a pharisee... isn't that equivelent to the rabbis of today?



Well, since it's 2000 years in the past it's doubtful that we'll find one now. Was anyone looking for a body in a grave at that time?

Yes they were concerned about His body in the tomb...

Mat 27:62 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=62&version=kjv#62)¶Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

Mat 27:63 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=63&version=kjv#63)Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Mat 27:64 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=64&version=kjv#64)Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Mat 27:65 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=65&version=kjv#65)Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make [it] as sure as ye can.

Mat 27:66 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=66&version=kjv#66)So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 01:39 PM
I read a book which convinced me that Jesus rose from the dead, called "Who moved the stone", which very carefully and painstakingly goes over the possiblities. It's a bit old fashioned, but the guy who wrote it was originally an athiest, a trained historian, who was very frustrated with the continued belief that Jesus rose from the dead... so he decided to write a book to disprove it. Part way through his research he had a crises of faith/intellect, and realised he couldn't write the book he'd originally intended to. The book may not convince you, but it should help you understand why some are convinced. I understand why many are convinced. It's called 'faith'. I don't have a problem with that, and I don't think it's a bad thing.

I just don't think it's proof of anything, either.


A few evangelicals don't like it by the way... he thinks some of the gospel accounts are later fabrications. But he approaches the grave where Jesus isn't like the scene of a crime, and examines all the possibilities. Right, but he's starting his research with certain basic assumptions. I have different basic assumptions, which lead me to a different conclusion.



This thread has gone WAY off the passover!I seem to have that effect, amongst others.

RoadWarrior
Mar 20th 2008, 01:40 PM
...

This thread has gone WAY off the passover!

Not a problem. Fenris graciously answered my questions early on. The direction of this thread since then has taken an interesting turn, but it is still in the ballpark.

When I have been thinking of why I want to observe Passover, for me it is filled with the knowledge that it was at that particular time when Jesus was crucified, buried, and rose on the 3rd day. Christian faith centers on these events. Yet, as Christians today we are celebrating easter, as something disconnected and completely separate from the Jewish roots.

Along with many others, I struggle with this. To the degree which I can put the broken pieces back together in my mind and understanding, to that same degree my joy increases.

I have a Netflix DVD right now, "One Night with the King" which is the story of Purim - the story of the book of Esther. Thanks, Fenris and daughter, for bringing out that Purim is on Friday. My husband and I will watch the movie tonight, and tomorrow I will ponder the deep and spiritual meanings of what God did because one young woman honored the man who brought her up, even from the depths of the harem of a pagan king.

If God did that for Esther and her people, what might He do for us today? What do I personally need to do, to be more like Esther?

Fenris, please tell us more about how your family will observe and celebrate this wonderful story.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 01:42 PM
Paul was a pharisee... isn't that equivelent to the rabbis of today?No, he claims to be a Pharisee. Big difference. His job working for the high priest, a known saducee, certainly gives one pause for thought.


Yes they were concerned about His body in the tomb...

Mat 27:62 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=62&version=kjv#62)¶Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

Mat 27:63 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=63&version=kjv#63)Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Mat 27:64 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=64&version=kjv#64)Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Mat 27:65 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=65&version=kjv#65)Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make [it] as sure as ye can.

Mat 27:66 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=66&version=kjv#66)So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.Right, but this is written by the same people who say he rose from the dead. So it isn't fact, it's all part of the same narrative.

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 01:44 PM
So the high priest didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead? HUMMM... that's interesting...

I'm waiting on a book to arrive in the post about this, can I ask in the meantime... how do we know Caiphas was a saducee? If he was, it raises some very interesting questions... there are some suggestions of it in the gospels, while I think about it... but I'd have to dig.

Thanks.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 01:55 PM
If God did that for Esther and her people, what might He do for us today? What do I personally need to do, to be more like Esther?Step up and do the right thing, just like Esther did.

It's at once so easy to say and so difficult to do!


Fenris, please tell us more about how your family will observe and celebrate this wonderful story.



Well, tonight we shall go hear the book of Esther being read at synagogue. Same thing tomorrow morning with morning prayers.

The pertinent part of the book, telling us how to celebrate today can be found in chapter 9:


20. And Mordecai inscribed these things and sent letters to all the Jews who were in all the provinces of King Ahasuerus, both near and far,

21. to enjoin them to make the fourteenth day of the month of Adar and the fifteenth day thereof, every year,

22. as the days when the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month that was reversed for them from grief to joy and from mourning to a festive day-to make them days of feasting and joy, and sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.

23. And the Jews took upon themselves what they had commenced to do and what Mordecai had written to them.

24. For Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, the adversary of all the Jews, had devised to destroy the Jews, and he cast the pur-that is the lot-to terrify them and destroy them.

25. And when she came before the king, he commanded through letters that his evil device that he had devised against the Jews return upon his own head, and to destroy him and his sons on the gallows.

26. Therefore, they called these days Purim after the name pur; therefore, because of all the words of this letter, and what they saw concerning this matter, and what happened to them.

27. The Jews ordained and took upon themselves and upon their seed and upon all those who join them, that it is not to be revoked to make these two days according to their script and according to their appointed time, every year.

28. And these days shall be remembered and celebrated throughout every generation, in every family, every province, and every city, and these days of Purim shall not be revoked from amidst the Jews, and their memory shall not cease from their seed.

29. Now, Queen Esther, the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew wrote down all [the acts of] power, to confirm the second Purim letter.

30. And he sent letters to all the Jews, to one hundred twenty-seven provinces, the realm of Ahasuerus, words of peace and truth,

31. to confirm these days of Purim in their appointed times, as Mordecai the Jew and Esther the queen had enjoined them, and as they had ordained for themselves and for their seed, the matters of the fasts and their cry.

32. Now Esther's order confirmed these matters of Purim, and it was inscribed in the book.

So we celebrate by sending two ready-to-eat portions of food to friends, and giving charity to the poor. The food is usually delivered by children, who dress up in costumes. The wearing of costumes relates to the hidden nature of God's hand in the events, as well as the fact that the identities of the main characters were hidden and confused.

Friday afternoon we celebrate with a festive meal that includes drinking alcoholic beverages and becoming intoxicated to at least a certain level. One of the reasons for this is because wine played a role in the events as well; queen Vashti was only killed because the king was drunk, and her death led to Esther being made queen.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 01:58 PM
Then he should have appeared to the rabbis to show them the error of their ways.

Unless it wasn't a major movement at the time.

What else is new? :lol:

Well again, a miracle is something obvious. Someone who believed in Jesus telling me that he saw him rise form the dead does not fit that category.God's ways are above our ways. One should not presume to tell God how He 'should have' done this or that. Everything God has done for His people will be made clear when the time comes. ;)

It was a major movement long before the Temple's destruction when there were plenty of people still close enough to have found the body.

Well, a miracle is not always so obvious. There are those who question the crossing of the Red Sea saying that it was merely a body of water with reeds when the tide had gone down. When the drowning of Pharaoh and his army is mentioned they say that is no extrabiblical evidence that this actually happened. But why do YOU believe the miracle happened? Is it not because those who saw and believed testified of it to their children and all who would hear? One man, who also believed, wrote of it? Are there any accounts of it by Egyptians who witnessed it? So, a miracle need not be 'obvious' except to the ones it affects. Which is why I told Teke that if she wants to believe this 'holy fire' thing is real, that's her choice. I just don't think that Scripture backs up any claims of this 'parlor trick' type of miracle.

God Bless!

diffangle
Mar 20th 2008, 02:02 PM
Right, but this is written by the same people who say he rose from the dead. So it isn't fact, it's all part of the same narrative.
Yeah you're right, the disciples are all a bunch of liars and there's no historical value in the Gospels. :rolleyes: Do you ever question the Talmud in the same way you question the NT? :P

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 02:07 PM
So the high priest didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead? HUMMM... that's interesting...Yup.


I'm waiting on a book to arrive in the post about this, can I ask in the meantime... how do we know Caiphas was a saducee? If he was, it raises some very interesting questions... there are some suggestions of it in the gospels, while I think about it... but I'd have to dig.

Thanks.The high priest was appointed by Rome and was a Saducee. That's why the high priest was so careful to appease the Romans. When the Jewish revolt started in 66, the first thing they did was sack the high priest and put a Pharisee in his stead.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 02:11 PM
Yeah you're right, the disciples are all a bunch of liars and there's no historical value in the Gospels. :rolleyes:
Well, we don't know who wrote the gospels, but it wasn't necessarily the apostles. And they have some historical value. But If I was to believe them entirely, I would be a Christian.



Do you ever question the Talmud in the same way you question the NT? :P
The Talmud is a transcript of legal discussions made by the rabbis. I don't have to question it, they are always questioning each other on their arguments.:P

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 02:16 PM
God's ways are above our ways. One should not presume to tell God how He 'should have' done this or that. Everything God has done for His people will be made clear when the time comes. ;)Fair enough.


It was a major movement long before the Temple's destruction when there were plenty of people still close enough to have found the body.Perhaps. But we don't have a clear idea of what the Jerusalem church actually believed. We know that they still brought sacrifice at the temple, and generally observed Jewish law. Everything we see now is through the prism of what Paul wrote. And Paul never met them.


Well, a miracle is not always so obvious. There are those who question the crossing of the Red Sea saying that it was merely a body of water with reeds when the tide had gone down. When the drowning of Pharaoh and his army is mentioned they say that is no extrabiblical evidence that this actually happened. But why do YOU believe the miracle happened? Is it not because those who saw and believed testified of it to their children and all who would hear? One man, who also believed, wrote of it? Are there any accounts of it by Egyptians who witnessed it? So, a miracle need not be 'obvious' except to the ones it affects. Which is why I told Teke that if she wants to believe this 'holy fire' thing is real, that's her choice. I just don't think that Scripture backs up any claims of this 'parlor trick' type of miracle.

God Bless!True, but so what? The Jews were not Jewish because the red sea split.

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 02:24 PM
I just don't think that Scripture backs up any claims of this 'parlor trick' type of miracle.

God Bless!

I'd hardly call Jerusalem a "parlor", nor that "holy fire" doesn't proceed from Jerusalem by the power of God.

I might be as skeptical as you, if it were not for thousands of witnesses over a period of hundreds of years (it is also strange that many Christians have never heard about this event, perhaps for reasons only God knows). Know of any "parlor tricks" that have a rep like that.

As for scripture, God did appear, in a sense such as miraculously, in fire in scripture. In such instances the fire came from heaven, Christians believe no less.

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 02:29 PM
I believe in miracles. My husband and I had a very personal, intimate, and utterly undeniable miracle in our own lives, which utterly threw him, because at the time he was an athiest.

I'm just not certain if I believe in miracles occurring to the clock like that.


It's not "to the clock" , it's to certain prayers said. They only go in and pray those prayers at that time of year.

diffangle
Mar 20th 2008, 02:32 PM
The Talmud is a transcript of legal discussions made by the rabbis.

Then it's understood that the laws in the Talmud are the rabbi's and not YHWH's(except the ones that are definately in Torah)?

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 02:39 PM
Then it's understood that the laws in the Talmud are the rabbi's and not YHWH's(except the ones that are definately in Torah)?
Umm, no.

Read the Torah. It's very vague in explaining exactly how things are done. This is intentional; God wants us to study the bible, delve into it, and come up with exactly how He expects us to do things.

Let's take a simple example from Exodus 12:2 "This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year to you."

This is the first commandment that God gives to the Jewish people specifically.

How many days are in a month? How many months are in a year? How do we determine when a month begins or ends?

It isn't trivial, because all of the holidays are based on the calendar.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 02:59 PM
I'd hardly call Jerusalem a "parlor", nor that "holy fire" doesn't proceed from Jerusalem by the power of God.

I might be as skeptical as you, if it were not for thousands of witnesses over a period of hundreds of years (it is also strange that many Christians have never heard about this event, perhaps for reasons only God knows). Know of any "parlor tricks" that have a rep like that.

As for scripture, God did appear, in a sense such as miraculously, in fire in scripture. In such instances the fire came from heaven, Christians believe no less.I know the RC church has lots of places where so called signs and wonders happen. I'm not as familiar with Eastern Orthodox so I would not presume to get into that. As to the 'rep' of this thing, you said yourself that most people have no idea of it. What kind of rep is that?

As for the fire in Scripture, everyone in the camp saw the pillar of fire, not just one priest in a cave. ;)

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 03:08 PM
I know the RC church has lots of places where so called signs and wonders happen. I'm not as familiar with Eastern Orthodox so I would not presume to get into that. As to the 'rep' of this thing, you said yourself that most people have no idea of it. What kind of rep is that?

As for the fire in Scripture, everyone in the camp saw the pillar of fire, not just one priest in a cave. ;)

There are a lot of things that people aren't aware of. I said that "many Christians" haven't heard about it. Could just be because they are only interested in Christianity in their area and not what all goes on with Christians around the world.

I've already stated how not only one person saw the fire coming out and how that happened. Do you believe that everyone at Pentecost saw the "tongues of fire" overhead? I don't recall scripture stating that everyone saw them, but only heard the gospel in their own tongue.:hmm:

RoadWarrior
Mar 20th 2008, 03:22 PM
There was a tv program sometime in the last year or so about this 'Holy fire' phenomenon. Wikipedia has a fine article on it, including a section of criticism. That the fire is there, is not the question, rather it is how does the fire get there?

That area of the world has lots of fissures in rocks that leak gases, so it would not be surprising if a tiny gas leak in that cave allowed a "perpetual flame" in the hidden icon. Here is a quote from that article in wiki.

Porphyrius later relates a story told to him by a metropolitan in Jerusalem. According to this, when Ibrahim Pasha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Pasha_of_Egypt) was there he wanted to verify the authenticity of the miracle, so he told the Patriarch's deputies to allow him inside the shrine during the rites. If the miracle was authentic he would donate a large sum of money, but if it were a fraud he would confiscate all the money given by pilgrims and expose the fraud in all the European newspapers.
Deputies Metropolitan Misaеl of Petra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra), Metropolitan Daniel of Nazareth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth), and Bishop Dionysius of Philadelphia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amman) met to discuss the offer. Misael then admitted that he ignites the fire from an icon-lamp which is hidden behind the marble icon of Christ's Resurrection behind the burial couch. Thus they decided to beg Ibrahim not to interfere in religious business and not to expose the secrets of Christian rites, because the Russian Emperor Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_I_of_Russia) would be very unhappy if that were to happen. Ibrahim Pasha therefore decided not to press the matter. But from that time the clergy of the Tomb ceased to believe in the miraculous descent of the Holy Fire.
Porphyrius continues, "...the metropolitan added that only from God himself they await the cessation of (our) pious lie. As he is able, he will calm the people who now believe in the fiery miracle of the Great Sabbath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Saturday). But we cannot even start this revolution in thought. We'd be torn apart near the very shrine of the Holy Tomb.
"We have informed the patriarch Athanasius, who then lived in Constantinople, about the blackmail of Ibrahim Pasha, but in our letter to him we wrote 'sacred fire' instead of 'holy light'. Surprised by this change the blessed elder asked us: 'Why are you calling the Holy Fire differently?' We told him the truth, but added that the fire, ignited on the Lord's Tomb from the concealed icon-lamp, is, after all, a sacred fire, since it comes from a sacred place." (Kniga bytija moego, vol. 3, pp. 299-301)

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 04:09 PM
There was a tv program sometime in the last year or so about this 'Holy fire' phenomenon. Wikipedia has a fine article on it, including a section of criticism. That the fire is there, is not the question, rather it is how does the fire get there?

That area of the world has lots of fissures in rocks that leak gases, so it would not be surprising if a tiny gas leak in that cave allowed a "perpetual flame" in the hidden icon. Here is a quote from that article in wiki.

Porphyrius later relates a story told to him by a metropolitan in Jerusalem. According to this, when Ibrahim Pasha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Pasha_of_Egypt) was there he wanted to verify the authenticity of the miracle, so he told the Patriarch's deputies to allow him inside the shrine during the rites. If the miracle was authentic he would donate a large sum of money, but if it were a fraud he would confiscate all the money given by pilgrims and expose the fraud in all the European newspapers.
Deputies Metropolitan Misaеl of Petra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra), Metropolitan Daniel of Nazareth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth), and Bishop Dionysius of Philadelphia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amman) met to discuss the offer. Misael then admitted that he ignites the fire from an icon-lamp which is hidden behind the marble icon of Christ's Resurrection behind the burial couch. Thus they decided to beg Ibrahim not to interfere in religious business and not to expose the secrets of Christian rites, because the Russian Emperor Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_I_of_Russia) would be very unhappy if that were to happen. Ibrahim Pasha therefore decided not to press the matter. But from that time the clergy of the Tomb ceased to believe in the miraculous descent of the Holy Fire.
Porphyrius continues, "...the metropolitan added that only from God himself they await the cessation of (our) pious lie. As he is able, he will calm the people who now believe in the fiery miracle of the Great Sabbath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Saturday). But we cannot even start this revolution in thought. We'd be torn apart near the very shrine of the Holy Tomb.
"We have informed the patriarch Athanasius, who then lived in Constantinople, about the blackmail of Ibrahim Pasha, but in our letter to him we wrote 'sacred fire' instead of 'holy light'. Surprised by this change the blessed elder asked us: 'Why are you calling the Holy Fire differently?' We told him the truth, but added that the fire, ignited on the Lord's Tomb from the concealed icon-lamp, is, after all, a sacred fire, since it comes from a sacred place." (Kniga bytija moego, vol. 3, pp. 299-301)

This skeptic story doesn't sound very convincing. A metropolitan doesn't have anything to do with it. So I'm not sure what this Metropolitan Misaеl has to do with anything. As one who is familiar with some untruths told by others I am far more critically observant of such proclamations and who proclaimed them.
The other strange statement, "clergy of the Tomb ceased to believe in the miraculous descent of the Holy Fire", then why are they there. And it is not only the Orthodox who tend things at this church. There are Roman catholics and Franciscans, even though they are not allowed to attend to some areas there (how this came about is another subject of a precarious situation in the east).

The local authorities go into the sepulchral every year to check it before it is sealed. It is a reenactment of Christ's tomb being sealed. Do you think for hundreds of years some secret lamp wouldn't have been discovered? Very doubtful. Which is why the skeptics came up with the phosphor theory. Yet if that were true, or the "gases" theory, then why doesn't it occur regularly as a natural phenomenon would.

I am not one that is easily led by the stories of others. I have researched this way back in history, such as what the early Christian fathers wrote and what skeptics have written. It is the only unexplainable open miracle I know of.

Ta-An
Mar 20th 2008, 04:22 PM
No, we don't have that concept. God is one indivisible being to us.
What does the feather symbolize to you Fenris? :hmm:

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 04:25 PM
That a chicken crossed the road...

(sorry... lol)

RoadWarrior
Mar 20th 2008, 04:31 PM
This skeptic story doesn't sound very convincing....I am not one that is easily led by the stories of others. I have researched this way back in history, such as what the early Christian fathers wrote and what skeptics have written. It is the only unexplainable open miracle I know of.

One of the things about believing, is what it takes to convince a person to believe such and such a thing. You believe in the holy fire, I don't. So the challenges to me ring more true than the annual manifestation witnessed by a single person. That it is sealed off and not allowed to be investigated by scientific inquiry, makes it suspect in my mind.

Some years ago I came to the realization that believing something does not make it true, any more than not believing makes it untrue. The important thing to me became searching for what is true, and believing in that which is verifiably true.

Fenris, much as he is interested in things Christian, does not accept that Jesus is the Messiah, because to him it is not verifiably true. In that way, he and I share something important. Truth matters.

You are of course, free to believe in the holy fire. It is your tradition, as are relics and icons and many other things that are peculiar to Orthodox and RC religions. I doubt you will gain many converts to those things among Protestant believers, however. There are reasons why the reformation broke away from all that.

The bottom line for me as a Christian is whether I can, in my daily life, experience the reality of Christ.

There are many things in Israel that are used to hype one group or another. The sites of the tomb, the so-called true cross, etc., are things that were set up in the time of Constantine. Throughout the Middle East, people are still worshiping created things and dead bodies. In contrast, the message of Christ is new life, transformed mind, and freedom.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 04:55 PM
What does the feather symbolize to you Fenris? :hmm:A tiny broom. Really.

Tanya~
Mar 20th 2008, 05:00 PM
I'd be interested in knowing how the egg found its way into the Passover Seder.

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 05:02 PM
It's not that chicken again... is it?

Sorry...

Is it to do with rebirth?

Tanya~
Mar 20th 2008, 05:04 PM
It probably relates to spring and new life, but what I want to know, is how this became part of the tradition.

Tanya~
Mar 20th 2008, 05:06 PM
Oh I found this:

~~~ quote from wikipedia

Beitzah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_%28food%29) — A roasted egg, symbolizing the korban chagigah (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Korban_chagigah&action=edit&redlink=1) (festival sacrifice) that was offered in the Temple in Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem) and roasted and eaten as part of the meal on Seder night. Although both the Pesach sacrifice and the chagigah (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chagigah&action=edit&redlink=1) were meat offerings, the chagigah is commemorated by an egg, a symbol of mourning (as eggs are the first thing served to mourners after a funeral), evoking the idea of mourning over the destruction of the Temple and our inability to offer any kind of sacrifices in honor of the Pesach holiday. Since the destruction of the Temple, the beitzah serves as a visual reminder of the chagigah; it is either not eaten or handled during the Seder or eaten dipped in salt water (which represents tears).

~~~~

... but it doesn't tell when/how this custom was added.

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 05:08 PM
I'd be interested in knowing how the egg found its way into the Passover Seder.
The Seder plate contains the following:

Bitter herbs- symbolizing the bitter slavery in Egypt.

Charoset- a mixture of wine, nuts, apples. Symbolizing the mortar the the Jews built with in Egypt.

Karpas- a non-bitter vegetable, which is dipped in salt water. The salt water symbolizes the tears that the Jews cried while in slavery.

Bone- usually a chicken wing or drumstick. Symbolizes the passover sacrifice. It serves as a visual reminder and is not eaten.

The egg- symbolizes the festive sacrifice which was also brought on passover. We use an egg since an egg is the symbol of mourning, and we mourn that we cannot bring this sacrifice...

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 05:09 PM
There are a lot of things that people aren't aware of. I said that "many Christians" haven't heard about it. Could just be because they are only interested in Christianity in their area and not what all goes on with Christians around the world.

I've already stated how not only one person saw the fire coming out and how that happened. Do you believe that everyone at Pentecost saw the "tongues of fire" overhead? I don't recall scripture stating that everyone saw them, but only heard the gospel in their own tongue.:hmm:Teke, the accounts speak of the one man going into the catacomb and coming out with the fire. Sure lots of people see it after that but inside the catacomb is only one; the patriarch of Jerusalem. I'm glad you brought up Pentecost. The 'tongues of fire' overhead did not then happen every year on cue. And BTW, signs and wonders like this do not affect my faith in God one bit. I don't need a light show to believe. :D

God Bless!

Fenris
Mar 20th 2008, 05:10 PM
Oh I found this:

... but it doesn't tell when/how this custom was added.
It was obviously added after 70AD. :lol:

OK, the Mishna mentions that something was used as a reminder for the festive offering even when the temple stood. After the temple was destroyed, whatever was used was switched for an egg because of the mourning...

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 07:24 PM
Teke, the accounts speak of the one man going into the catacomb and coming out with the fire. Sure lots of people see it after that but inside the catacomb is only one; the patriarch of Jerusalem. I'm glad you brought up Pentecost. The 'tongues of fire' overhead did not then happen every year on cue. And BTW, signs and wonders like this do not affect my faith in God one bit. I don't need a light show to believe. :D

God Bless!

This is such contradictory thinking I don't know how to reply. :confused
And yet you believe what you read in scripture. :hmm: Very strange......

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 07:37 PM
This is such contradictory thinking I don't know how to reply. :confused
And yet you believe what you read in scripture. :hmm: Very strange......Whatever works for you. :dunno:

Ta-An
Mar 21st 2008, 01:24 PM
That is my understanding. So if Easter and Passover are celebrated so far apart from each other, we miss the connections of what really happened in Jerusalem when Jesus was crucified. We hear about it, but it is like something remote and disconnected from our faith.

From my reading of the Bible, I think the two are inseparable, as spiritual events. Except we would not call it Easter. Some say Resurrection Day instead. But the whole world knows it as Easter. Interestingly enough, there is a different date for the Orthodox Easter and the Roman Catholic Easter.

The first time I was in Turkey, we were there at the time of the Catholic Easter. Everybody celebrates with red eggs, for some reason. A week later we were in Greece, and it was the Orthodox Easter. They celebrate with fireworks and parades of carrying around a "tomb".

But none of that is what I am looking for.RW.... indeed,,,,, If Easter really represented what happened at Passover... why is it not celebrated @ Passover time?? :hmm:

daughter
Mar 21st 2008, 01:32 PM
I must admit, I was wondering that... we had a passover meal for Good Friday, and I was thinking to myself (while enjoying the midrash) "hummm...:hmm:"

daughter
Mar 21st 2008, 01:35 PM
By the way, I'm not sure, but I think English is one of the few languages where Easter is called after a Norse fertility goddess. Everyone else calls it a variant of Paschal, Peshach... or something based on the actual Hebrew. It's just us English speakers who bring Oestre into it.

This is, incidentally, where the word Oestrogen comes in. I don't know whether there is any connection to the egg at the passover meal or not... Personally I think it's just pagan influence run rampant.

That and the evil bunny of course...

(Why did the bunny cross the road?)

Oh, when you get back, happy Purim, Fenris, and I hope you don't have a hangover!

Fenris
Mar 21st 2008, 02:06 PM
Thank you, daughter

diffangle
Mar 21st 2008, 02:25 PM
RW.... indeed,,,,, If Easter really represented what happened at Passover... why is it not celebrated @ Passover time?? :hmm:
From http://www.babylonforsaken.com/easter.html



EASTER'S ANTISEMITC ORIGIN

In 325 AD – Emperor Constantine in the Council Nice ordered all Churches to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on Easter Sunday. The ancient Church had celebrated the Resurrection during the Passover [Nisan 14], which could fall on any day of the week, but the Churches near Rome had abandoned the practice because they hated the Jews, and fixed the date to the first Sunday after the first full moon of Spring. They also called the celebration ‘Easter’, after the pagan goddess of Spring. All of this is verified by the following quote from the Encarta Encyclopedia:

“An important historical result of the difference in reckoning the date of Easter was that the Christian churches in the East, which were closer to the birthplace of the new religion and in which old traditions were strong, observed [the Resurrection] according to the date of the Passover festival. The churches of the West, descendants of Greco-Roman civilization, celebrated Easter on a Sunday.
“Constantine the Great, Roman emperor, convoked the Council of Nicaea in 325. The council unanimously ruled that the Easter festival should be celebrated throughout the Christian world on the first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox; and that if the full moon should occur on a Sunday and thereby coincide with the Passover festival, Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following. Coincidence of the feasts of Easter and Passover was thus avoided.”
“The name [Easter] probably comes from Eastre, the Anglo-Saxon name of a Teutonic goddess of spring and fertility, to whom was dedicated a month corresponding to April. Her festival was celebrated on the day of the vernal equinox; traditions associated with the festival survive in the Easter rabbit, a symbol of fertility, and in colored easter eggs, originally painted with bright colors to represent the sunlight of spring, and used in Easter-egg rolling contests or given as gifts...” – Encarta Encyclopedia, article: Easter.
.
The following is an actual quote from Constantine showing that at the heart of the Sunday issue was Rome’s hatred for the Jews.

“And truly, in the first place, it seems to everyone a most unworthy thing that we should follow the customs of the Jews in the celebration of this most holy solemnity, who, polluted wretches! having stained their hands with a nefarious crime, are justly blinded in their minds. It is fit, therefore, that rejecting the practice of this people, we should perpetuate to all future ages the celebration of this rite, in a more legitimate order, which we have kept from the first day of our "Lord's" passion even to the present times. Let us then have nothing in common with the most hostile rabble of the Jews.” (Council of Nicea, pg. 52.)

RoadWarrior
Mar 21st 2008, 04:02 PM
RW.... indeed,,,,, If Easter really represented what happened at Passover... why is it not celebrated @ Passover time?? :hmm:

I think the answer was given quite well by Diffangle. It breaks my heart, because that separation is rooted in anger and hatred. :cry: Yet the church goes merrily along thinking it's ok, we're good in this.

We are not good in this. God has indeed been patient with us, but surely there will be an end to His patience.

Maybe the time has come for Christians to come back together with the Jews and to know that we are serving the same God.

RoadWarrior
Mar 21st 2008, 04:12 PM
to Fenris, and everyone else. Happy Purim! What a wonderful day, what a wonderful thing to celebrate. The Jews were going to be killed, and the king could not rescind that edict. But he could make a new edict, that the Jews could defend themselves.



Thank you, dear Lord, that You set this story in history, and preserved it for us to this day, that we can all know that You are God. While we are in the world, we will have tribulation, but You have given us the right to fight back!


Last night my husband and I watched the movie, "One Night with the King" which is a Hollywood/Bollywood version of the Esther story. It was much better than we expected, definitely not a low-budget movie.

We had dinner at The Anatolian Table, which is a new restaurant in our community serving Turkish food. (Well, maybe it is a stretch, but Turkey is in the vicinity of the Esther story, not too far away.)

Today I will read the book of Esther again. But I will skip the getting drunk part! Can't bear the headaches ...

I sure hope this is not taken by anyone as an insult to the Jews or to Christians. It is me trying to get a little bit closer to - to - ... something.

:hug:

daughter
Mar 21st 2008, 04:38 PM
It sounds like you are keeping the story alive, which is great! Not disrespectful at all, to remember how much God works, in all times and all situations, to preserve those he loves.

I had no idea there was a film about the Esther story. I must watch it some time. At the moment, I have to make do with my son "telling me the voices," (Irish Gaelic expression for story telling) that is... if he's read something a gazillion times (as he does the bible) and someone says, "hey... what was the story about Esther?" he'll get in character with great enthusiam, do all the voices, and be Mordechai, the King of Babylon, Esther his queen, Mordechai... and the most evil, most despicable... "he who can't be named?" I'm like, "WHAT? He had a name..."

Not anymore, declares my son cheerfully. Cause he messed with God, and that's BAD!!! His name is filth!

So in our house at the moment, if you drop something on your foot and it hurts, the only curse permissable is "Haman!"

Well... according to Seamus anyway...

I do like the way he reads stories, internalises them, acts them out ad infinitum...

One thing I know for sure, he'll never forget any of these stories... they have become so much part of his childhood.

RoadWarrior
Mar 21st 2008, 04:56 PM
Seamus sounds absolutely adorable! I like that kid.

Ta-An
Mar 21st 2008, 06:14 PM
Maybe the time has come for Christians to come back together with the Jews and to know that we are serving the same God.
Amein and amein, may the G_d of Israel reign!!!!

daughter
Mar 21st 2008, 06:25 PM
Seamus sounds absolutely adorable! I like that kid.
You know what the sweetest thing is? When he gets indignant that injustice is being done, and his voice goes squeeky right before a moment of darkening into what I think will be baritone, when his voice properly breaks. He just can't understand any kind of injustice, whether it's a local kid trying to kill a frog for fun, or whether it's Haman trying to kill all the Jews. He thinks the local kid can be saved, but he thinks Haman is doomed, doomed I tells you! Too much Grandpa Simpson, if you ask me..

Anyway, you want to hear him doing Moses by the way... there's a whole huge story about that. We were learning Chinese together, he was with native Chinese children, I was doing grammar work... I walked into the room, and there was this Chinese lad dancing around declaiming straight from Exodus, while Seamus was lying on his face, saying (in Chinese) "But I can't go to Pharaoh... I can't speak!"

It turns out, apparently, that if you are a Chinese boy of eight years old, dancing around waving the palms of your hands in the air making "OOOH!" noises, apparently means that you are the burning bush...

My son LOVES the bible, and he tells everyone the stories echoing through his head, no matter if he can't quite speak the language yet!

Teke
Mar 21st 2008, 09:17 PM
I think the answer was given quite well by Diffangle. It breaks my heart, because that separation is rooted in anger and hatred. :cry: Yet the church goes merrily along thinking it's ok, we're good in this.

We are not good in this. God has indeed been patient with us, but surely there will be an end to His patience.

Maybe the time has come for Christians to come back together with the Jews and to know that we are serving the same God.

I didn't see the "answer given by Diffangle". But the ancient church still celebrates according to the old calendar on this. The western calendar is not the same.

I did see where Toymom expressed the dislike of Christians celebrating a Jewish traditionally national holiday like Passover. And this is why the church kept the date after Passover. (April 27th on your western calendar)

Now I'm going to repeat myself, as I've already went over some of this in another thread that was attacking Easter (in the Anything Goes forum).
It is a shame that Christians do not know enough about what they celebrate. Perhaps they should do missions more and learn about Christianity around the world.

Christianity's traditional Pascha/Easter is next month, not this month when the governing authorities have decided it so retailers can make a bundle off of us. And those red eggs you mentioned in another post, are an ethnic tradition in Christianity. After the liturgy for Pascha, during fellowship when everyone is feasting, a Christian will hold up their red egg to another and proclaim, "Christ is risen!", to which the other Christian replies "Truly He is risen!" and they crack them against one another, which is symbolic of His victory over death (tomb).

The Orthodox you mentioned, all around the world reenact His burial (when Joseph of Arimathea requested His body from Pilate) with a cloth depicting Him (properly called an Epitaphios) , which can be of simple means or quite elaborate and expensive, they carry it around the church three times and then place it inside on a table, which is usually surrounded by flowers. This they do on what is known as Good Friday. It stays there until Pascha when it is then on the altar. As He is risen and is our High Priest.

Now some insight as to why Christians can't celebrate Jewish feasts. We are not celebrating the same things. Jews would be celebrating Purim with feasting and drinking, while Christians would be fasting in preparation of the Resurrection feast to come after their fast. Why do Christians fast, because the Lord fasted. And so they fast for 40 days as He did in the wilderness, in preparation. As He overcame the evil one, so are Christians to do at this time of year.

RoadWarrior
Mar 21st 2008, 11:47 PM
I didn't see the "answer given by Diffangle".
Read post #210.


But the ancient church still celebrates according to the old calendar on this. The western calendar is not the same.

By ancient I assume you mean the Orthodox church.



I did see where Toymom expressed the dislike of Christians celebrating a Jewish traditionally national holiday like Passover. And this is why the church kept the date after Passover. (April 27th on your western calendar)

Toymom's post was way back at number 30. We have moved on a bit from there.



Now I'm going to repeat myself, as I've already went over some of this in another thread that was attacking Easter (in the Anything Goes forum).
It is a shame that Christians do not know enough about what they celebrate. Perhaps they should do missions more and learn about Christianity around the world.
Maybe you missed it, but the intent of this thread is to understand more deeply what it is that underlies Christian beliefs and traditions. Yes, you are right, we Christians have much that should make us bow our heads in shame.


Christianity's traditional Pascha/Easter is next month, not this month when the governing authorities have decided it so retailers can make a bundle off of us.
And, your Pascha is still connected to Passover?



And those red eggs you mentioned in another post, are an ethnic tradition in Christianity. After the liturgy for Pascha, during fellowship when everyone is feasting, a Christian will hold up their red egg to another and proclaim, "Christ is risen!", to which the other Christian replies "Truly He is risen!" and they crack them against one another, which is symbolic of His victory over death (tomb).
So, the red egg takes from what was basically a pagan traditon, and Christianizes it?


The Orthodox you mentioned, all around the world reenact His burial (when Joseph of Arimathea requested His body from Pilate) with a cloth depicting Him (properly called an Epitaphios) , which can be of simple means or quite elaborate and expensive, they carry it around the church three times and then place it inside on a table, which is usually surrounded by flowers. This they do on what is known as Good Friday. It stays there until Pascha when it is then on the altar. As He is risen and is our High Priest.
So the representation of Jesus is taken from the tomb to the altar? Does this not seem backwards to you? I would think the altar comes before the tomb, since the altar was the place of sacrifice. Perhaps I am confused.


Now some insight as to why Christians can't celebrate Jewish feasts. We are not celebrating the same things.
Do you think we do not serve the same God as the Jews, Teke?


Jews would be celebrating Purim with feasting and drinking,
Purim is different from Passover.


while Christians would be fasting in preparation of the Resurrection feast to come after their fast. Why do Christians fast, because the Lord fasted. And so they fast for 40 days as He did in the wilderness, in preparation.
This is another confusion, IMO. Jesus' fast was before the beginning of His ministry, just after His baptism. He did not fast prior to the crucifixion, but participated in a feast with His disciples. In fact, He specifically said that the friends of the Bridegroom do not fast while the Bridegroom is with them, but that they would fast when He was no longer with them.


As He overcame the evil one, so are Christians to do at this time of year.
Only at this time of year? Why not year-round? Every day?

Thank you for your post, I can tell that you study a lot. But I'm afraid that the traditions your church follows are no more helpful to me than the traditions we have inherited from the RCC.

If God is God, and Jesus is God, and they are together One and not divided, then so also is the OT and the NT One, and the Bible is not divided.

It is truth according to the Bible that I seek, and not traditions according to men, no matter how ancient or learned they might be.

But thank you anyway. This was enlightening.

Teke
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:35 AM
Read post #210.

If that were a reputable site it might have some merit. I don't read anti Christian propaganda. And Fenris already explained about the calendar.


By ancient I assume you mean the Orthodox church.

I mean the church Jesus and the Apostles established. Call it what you like.



Toymom's post was way back at number 30. We have moved on a bit from there.

Meaning what? That a Jewish Christian opinion is irrelevant.



Maybe you missed it, but the intent of this thread is to understand more deeply what it is that underlies Christian beliefs and traditions. Yes, you are right, we Christians have much that should make us bow our heads in shame.

Maybe you missed it, but Judaism isn't Christianity.



And, your Pascha is still connected to Passover?

No, Christian Pascha isn't connected to Jewish Passover. Unless you want to call making sure that the Christian Pascha doesn't fall on the Jewish nations day a connection. Christians aren't Jews who came out of Egypt. For a Christian to celebrate in the manner of the Jews for Passover would be equivalent to Jews in Israel celebrating the American Thanksgiving Day. It wouldn't make sense.


So, the red egg takes from what was basically a pagan traditon, and Christianizes it?

Any material object can be used for anything. I can very easily paganize any number of things whether they be Christian or Jewish. Bread and wine were used in pagan ceremonies, should we abandon that too.

As a Christian you should be able to understand what the red egg symbolizes. The red for the blood, the egg for new beginning. And it's not a law but an ethnic tradition, just like Judaisms seder is. Their seder has a special meaning to them, so what's wrong with Christians having something with special meaning.



So the representation of Jesus is taken from the tomb to the altar? Does this not seem backwards to you? I would think the altar comes before the tomb, since the altar was the place of sacrifice. Perhaps I am confused.

The cross was not an altar. Jesus wasn't a sin sacrifice like those of animals in the OT. He is our High Priest, and it was the priests who made the sacrifice for the people.



Do you think we do not serve the same God as the Jews, Teke?

Sometimes I wonder about that.



Purim is different from Passover.

Yes it is. But both celebrate an event which is exclusively theirs.



This is another confusion, IMO. Jesus' fast was before the beginning of His ministry, just after His baptism. He did not fast prior to the crucifixion, but participated in a feast with His disciples. In fact, He specifically said that the friends of the Bridegroom do not fast while the Bridegroom is with them, but that they would fast when He was no longer with them.

Well, He isn't physically with us now is He. Which is why we fast and await His coming.


Only at this time of year? Why not year-round? Every day?

Ideally that would be great. But realistically we are in the world and have to deal with that daily, and we do. The fasting associated with the Resurrection feast is like a prescription your doctor gives you for your health to improve. One's spiritual health doesn't improve because they say so.


Thank you for your post, I can tell that you study a lot. But I'm afraid that the traditions your church follows are no more helpful to me than the traditions we have inherited from the RCC.

Well the traditions I follow are prescribed by the Apostles (who were Jewish). My altar has seven candles on it, the RC doesn't, and that's just one example of difference.


If God is God, and Jesus is God, and they are together One and not divided, then so also is the OT and the NT One, and the Bible is not divided.

The bible is not divided I agree. But you misunderstand what OT and NT mean. The OT is the canon given by the Apostles, the NT is the canon given by the church. They are both canon, which in a simple term means the law.

You might want to work on your Trinity theology some more. The Trinity is "not divided" in the sense you seem to think. The Father is God, the Son is "of" God, and the Spirit is "of" God.




It is truth according to the Bible that I seek, and not traditions according to men, no matter how ancient or learned they might be.

There are no religions that don't have traditions added by the people of the religion.


This was enlightening.

Good, I hope it enlightened you to Christianity.

daughter
Mar 22nd 2008, 08:12 AM
The cross was not an altar. Jesus wasn't a sin sacrifice like those of animals in the OT. He is our High Priest, and it was the priests who made the sacrifice for the people.
This is very important. If Jesus wasn't a sacrifice for sin, then what did he die for? I'm not asking to be facetious, I really want to know everyone's thoughts on this.

menJesus
Mar 22nd 2008, 08:49 AM
Jesus was THE sin sacrifice! Wasn`t this the whole point of His death by crucifixion - that He be the final sacrifice, the once-and-for-all sacrifice, for all of us?

daughter
Mar 22nd 2008, 08:52 AM
Well, that is what I thought Christians believed... I can't see that there's any point being Christian if that isn't it.

Teke
Mar 22nd 2008, 12:43 PM
This is very important. If Jesus wasn't a sacrifice for sin, then what did he die for? I'm not asking to be facetious, I really want to know everyone's thoughts on this.

It's important to think of Him as a High Priest first, and then recall what I actually said. I'll explain a bit more. With that picture in mind, Jesus as High Priest, who kills the animal (makes the sacrifice), and what is the sacrifice for (whatever sacrifice it is, sin etc.) but as a confession, whether that be a confession of faith (thanksgiving offering/sacrifice), or a confession of repentance (sin offering/sacrifice).

He died, "according to the law", not of sacrifice for sin (in the substitutionary sense), but of anathema (a whole other study, it's not what you think, it's the law/canon) from Judaism. The Levitcal law states that anything completely holy (as in having been dedicated to God) cannot be redeemed, it can only be killed or utterly destroyed. The rejection of Messiah was His condemnation to be killed, and it was within the will of God because the law states it.

Lev 27:28 ¶ Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, [both] of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing [is] most holy unto the LORD.

Lev 27:29 None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; [but] shall surely be put to death.

It was God Himself who made this devotion/sacrifice to/for us. He gave Himself first to Israel, as prophesied, and then to the rest of us. God is not slack in anything.;)

Studyin'2Show
Mar 22nd 2008, 01:09 PM
I think this thread may have run it's course as it started with friendly discourse but is turning into....well, something other than that. Would the OP object to closing it? :hmm:

menJesus
Mar 22nd 2008, 01:15 PM
I agree. Although continued discussion about the topic would be nice...

Teke
Mar 22nd 2008, 01:55 PM
I believe Toymom (a Jewish Christian) made a valid point (see post below). My intent wasn't to provoke anyone, but to clarify Christianity. Forgive me if anyone was offended.:hug:


To me, Passover is a Jewish holiday. To add Christ to it seems insulting to the Jewish part of me. I understand it from the Christian POV, but from the Jewish POV it seems wrong if that makes any sense at all.
I used to work with a lady who met with a Messianic group and she told me about their "Passover" celebration and it sounded to me like they were making a mockery of Judaism or using the sacred Jewish holiday as a form of entertainment.
I am sorry if that sounds bad.
But, it is a celebration of God bringing the Jews out of Egypt.
Why would gentiles even want to celebrate that?
What is it to them?

diffangle
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:24 PM
If that were a reputable site it might have some merit. I don't read anti Christian propaganda.

Here's their mission statement(it's not anti-Christian;))...



Welcome to Babylon Forsaken Ministries; We are a non-denominational ministry dedicated to calling the sinner from darkness, and the seeker of truth from religious confusion into the simplicity of the gospel. We believe and preach the Message of Revelation 14:12, which commands all men to place their faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God, and to obey the Commandments of God. (Click here to see the 7 Pillars of our faith) (http://www.babylonforsaken.com/pillars.html)

If you are looking for the simple teachings of the Scriptures, without the confusion of man-made doctrines and traditions, then you have come to the right place. We hope you will take the time to browse our website, and that you will find our simple and direct scriptural teachings a blessing.

Kahtar
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Toymom http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1575158#post1575158)
To me, Passover is a Jewish holiday. To add Christ to it seems insulting to the Jewish part of me. I understand it from the Christian POV, but from the Jewish POV it seems wrong if that makes any sense at all.
I used to work with a lady who met with a Messianic group and she told me about their "Passover" celebration and it sounded to me like they were making a mockery of Judaism or using the sacred Jewish holiday as a form of entertainment.
I am sorry if that sounds bad.
But, it is a celebration of God bringing the Jews out of Egypt.
Why would gentiles even want to celebrate that?
What is it to them?


Why would gentiles want to celebrate Passover?
We all, every one of us, were in bondage to sin, just as the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt.
We all had a taskmaster over us, Satan, just as the Israelites had a taskmaster over them, Pharoah.
The blood of the Lamb of God covers the doorpost of our hearts, just as the blood of the lambs was painted on the doorposts of the homes of the Israelites, and just as that blood protected them from the curse of death over Egypt, so the Blood of the Lamb protects us from the curse of death we were all under.
Just as the Israelites were led out of Egypt, setting them free from Pharoah's hand, so we are led out of the world, setting us free from satan's hand.
Just as the Israelites crossed the sea, and Pharoah's host were destroyed therein, so we are baptized, and the works of the enemy are destroyed in our lives.
Just as the Israelites came up out of the sea a brand new nation, called of God, so we, when we rise up, we are made new creatures in Christ Jesus, and enter into His kingdom.
It means alot to me. And I will celebrate it. And I will recognize the true Lamb of God, sacrificed in my place, as I do it.
No mockery involved at all. Not of Judaism, not of the festival, not of Isrealites. Rather an honoring of what Christ did, not only for the gentile, but for the Jew first.

RoadWarrior
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:59 PM
I think this thread may have run it's course as it started with friendly discourse but is turning into....well, something other than that. Would the OP object to closing it? :hmm:

No objection, Studyin'. The purpose of this thread was never about having a Christianity debate. In any case, I believe Fenris has given me quite a bit to ponder.

Thanks.

menJesus
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:04 PM
Why would gentiles want to celebrate Passover?
We all, every one of us, were in bondage to sin, just as the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt.
We all had a taskmaster over us, Satan, just as the Israelites had a taskmaster over them, Pharoah.
The blood of the Lamb of God covers the doorpost of our hearts, just as the blood of the lambs was painted on the doorposts of the homes of the Israelites, and just as that blood protected them from the curse of death over Egypt, so the Blood of the Lamb protects us from the curse of death we were all under.
Just as the Israelites were led out of Egypt, setting them free from Pharoah's hand, so we are led out of the world, setting us free from satan's hand.
Just as the Israelites crossed the sea, and Pharoah's host were destroyed therein, so we are baptized, and the works of the enemy are destroyed in our lives.
Just as the Israelites came up out of the sea a brand new nation, called of God, so we, when we rise up, we are made new creatures in Christ Jesus, and enter into His kingdom.
It means alot to me. And I will celebrate it. And I will recognize the true Lamb of God, sacrificed in my place, as I do it.
No mockery involved at all. Not of Judaism, not of the festival, not of Isrealites. Rather an honoring of what Christ did, not only for the gentile, but for the Jew first.

Thanks for an excellent post! I was beginning to wonder if we even served the same God... :(

Kahtar
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:12 PM
I forgot to point out that we gentiles have been grafted in. We are become the adopted children of Abraham, so to speak, and as such, the historical aspect of Passover does, in a sense, become a part of our heritage.
And, searching out the leaven of sin in our lives, and removing from our 'house'. And partaking of the True Manna which came down from Heaven. And celebrating the offering up of our Firstfruits of the Church, Christ Jesus, Who was lifted up. etc. etc.

RoadWarrior
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:23 PM
I forgot to point out that we gentiles have been grafted in. We are become the adopted children of Abraham, so to speak, and as such, the historical aspect of Passover does, in a sense, become a part of our heritage.
And, searching out the leaven of sin in our lives, and removing from our 'house'. And partaking of the True Manna which came down from Heaven. And celebrating the offering up of our Firstfruits of the Church, Christ Jesus, Who was lifted up. etc. etc.

Thanks, Kahtar. This is the direction I would have hoped we as Christians could have taken this thread (and still can, with cooperation from all the posters).

The more I can understand the roots, the more I can appreciate the fruits.

We have been grafted in - to what? Without knowing what we are grafted into, we are likely to disregard the value of that which undergirds and supports our very life in Christ.

Concerning Passover, I have at this point in the discussion already gained something valuable in thinking about the process of removing leaven from the house. As I have been praying over my home recently, and now walking through it thinking about leaven, my perspective has shifted. That is my goal. To shift my perspective as a Christian, to more deeply value and appreciate the vast beauty of what God has done for me, what He provides for me.

Removing the leaven could be seen as separating the precious from the vile.

Kahtar
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:33 PM
Concerning Passover, I have at this point in the discussion already gained something valuable in thinking about the process of removing leaven from the house. As I have been praying over my home recently, and now walking through it thinking about leaven, my perspective has shifted. That is my goal. To shift my perspective as a Christian, to more deeply value and appreciate the vast beauty of what God has done for me, what He provides for me.

Removing the leaven could be seen as separating the precious from the vile.Exactly. Removing from our homes all that defiles or leads one to defilement. But not just our homes. From our own hearts, as well, and that requires searching out that 'hidden leaven'. We closely examine our hearts and our lives, and if we find some hidden thing hiding in our heart, we should hastily and carefully scoop it up, taking the feather of the Holy Spirit to sweep up every crumb into our redemptive silver spoon, and cast it out, discard it outside.

RoadWarrior
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:40 PM
Exactly. Removing from our homes all that defiles or leads one to defilement. But not just our homes. From our own hearts, as well, and that requires searching out that 'hidden manna'. We closely examine our hearts and our lives, and if we find some hidden thing hiding in our heart, we should hastily and carefully scoop it up, taking the feather of the Holy Spirit to sweep up every crumb into our redemptive silver spoon, and cast it out, discard it outside.

I have a friend who likes to ask, when a "spiritual" discussion is going on, "What does that look like?"

It is a valid question. Perhaps the spirit of a person can understand the spiritual aspect of examining our hearts, but the physical person might have difficulty doing that in actual practice. I believe that there is tremendous power in Christ, but there seems to be blocks in the way of many people actually accessing that power to live their lives in holiness.

Kahtar
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:42 PM
It is a valid question. Perhaps the spirit of a person can understand the spiritual aspect of examining our hearts, but the physical person might have difficulty doing that in actual practice. I believe that there is tremendous power in Christ, but there seems to be blocks in the way of many people actually accessing that power to live their lives in holiness.
That understanding the spiritual through the act of the physical has, I believe, always been the point of the whole thing, but yes, it is difficult for many to make that transition.

Tanya~
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:21 PM
Hebrews 10 explains that Jesus did offer His body as a sacrifice for sin. He was the once-for-all sacrifice for sin. Here is part of it.

Heb 10:8-14

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Jesus is the High Priest. He is also the offering for sin. His offering was His own body.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:30 PM
Well, the thread seems to have taken a good turn so we'll leave it, for now. Thanks Kahtar for some excellent analogies! ;) Indeed everything within the Holy Scriptures (both Hebrew and Apostolic) are part of our new 'heritage' as born again believers in Messiah. :pp

God Bless!

diffangle
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:30 PM
Hebrews 10 explains that Jesus did offer His body as a sacrifice for sin. He was the once-for-all sacrifice for sin. Here is part of it.

Heb 10:8-14

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Jesus is the High Priest. He is also the offering for sin. His offering was His own body.
Psa 40:6 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=40&v=6&t=KJV#6)Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

menJesus
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:35 PM
I am glad the thread is staying open. Like Road Warrior, I am here to learn all I can about this. And I believe it is an important thing for me to do.

Tanya~
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:40 PM
Yes, Hebrews quotes directly from that Psalm :) He explains it:

Heb 10:5-10

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come —
In the volume of the book it is written of Me —
To do Your will, O God.'"

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV

I'm thankful Jesus offered His body once and for all, so that we do not have to continually make burnt offerings for sin.

1 Cor 5:7
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
NKJV


He is the sacrifice for sin, on our behalf. :)

diffangle
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:45 PM
He is the sacrifice for sin, on our behalf. :)
HalleluYah! :pp

Ta-An
Mar 24th 2008, 12:32 PM
It means alot to me. And I will celebrate it. And I will recognize the true Lamb of God, sacrificed in my place, as I do it.
No mockery involved at all. Not of Judaism, not of the festival, not of Isrealites. Rather an honoring of what Christ did, not only for the gentile, but for the Jew first.Amein Kahtar....

Ta-An
Mar 24th 2008, 12:47 PM
The cross was not an altar. Jesus wasn't a sin sacrifice like those of animals in the OT. He is our High Priest, and it was the priests who made the sacrifice for the people.

Teke , Yeshua is both the High Priest and the Sacrifice, He is both the Lion and the Lamb :D

ProjectPeter
Mar 24th 2008, 01:10 PM
Tell you what Fenris... next year... let's get together on Passover and I'll celebrate it with you if you would have me in your home for that event. You say the word and I and my family will plan it and set the date in stone. Lord willing and time is still going on... we'll be there.

ProjectPeter
Mar 24th 2008, 01:30 PM
Let me say this for the sake of those reading. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with a Gentile or Jewish Christian celebrating passover. If you haven't then I highly recommend that you do. As a Gentile Christian you are not obligated to do so according to the Law. But as a follower of God I can assure you of this... it is a blessed time that you will have in doing so. In that celebration I can assure you that you will see the Messiah... Jesus Christ.

Now... there are differences in how a Jewish person may see things but even they look forward to the Messiah and this we must not forget. Yes guys... it is dangerous if we get caught up in the rote. We can't and must not get into it just for the sake of celebration and or because it is "required." It is not. But goodness gracious... I read Scripture and it is ALL throughout and how could I possibly be cold and calloused to something such as that? I can do nothing but celebrate it with great joy.

I don't do the Seder each and every year simply because there are times when I just can't. But rest assured that this time is in my heart regardless of whether schedule permits me to do the feast and the events of that time. It truly is a wonderful thing and I can't imagine any Christian ever going through the time without seeing Jesus Christ all throughout the period. Looking back... it does nothing but confirm to me my steadfast, unwaivering belief that He is the promised Messiah.

And on an official note and I say this openly because Fenris is not a stupid man. Every day that Fenris is in this forum it is my hope and my prayer that he too will realize that Christ is who He is. If as a Christian, we cannot with patience and love show him that we truly believe all the stuff that the New Testament Scripture teaches us about Christ... then we as Christians have failed miserably. If you, as a Christian, cannot handle such as this then I assure you that the controversial forums is not a place that you should spend much time in and need to start hanging out more in "maturing in Christ" and I say that for the simple reason that you are yet mature.

If you have a problem with this then start a thread in Chat to moderator's and I will talk with you there.

Teke
Mar 24th 2008, 01:49 PM
Teke , Yeshua is both the High Priest and the Sacrifice, He is both the Lion and the Lamb :D

Yes ACCM, and we need only clarify our meaning about this, for the good of God's people. Offering is the essence of sacrifice and is repeatable. Which is why as Christians we can say, Christ is both Offerer (in us) and Offered. Meaning we don't just focus only on His death at the Cross, but the bigger picture for us to understand His sacrifice (indeed the meaning of "sacrifice") completely.
The book of Hebrews tells us that the crucifixion, though perfect in itself, wasn't all there was to His humiliation. To quote myself from my blog (http://aspectofeternity.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-did-christ-have-to-die.html)on the subject, "Of His Incarnation, Hebrew 2:17 says: ". . . it was needful for Him to become like [his] brothers in all [respects], in order that He might also become a compassionate and faithful high Priest with regard to things pertaining to God for the sake of atoning for the sins of the people." The following verse adds: "For in that He has suffered, He Himself having been tested [or tempted], He is able to give aid to those being tested [or tempted; cf. verse 15]." Subsequently, He entered His rest (4:10), a rest we are to strive to enter (4:11)."

Fenris
Mar 24th 2008, 02:02 PM
Tell you what Fenris... next year... let's get together on Passover and I'll celebrate it with you if you would have me in your home for that event. You say the word and I and my family will plan it and set the date in stone. Lord willing and time is still going on... we'll be there.
I'll have to run it by my boss. :lol:

ProjectPeter
Mar 24th 2008, 02:21 PM
I hear that. But just so you know... I'm serious and would really enjoy it. You guys could even come here and we'd do it here... you'd be more than welcome and we'd love it. :)

Ta-An
Mar 24th 2008, 03:01 PM
Yes ACCM, and we need only clarify our meaning about this, for the good of God's people.Teke, in Him bringing the Sacrifice as High Priest, He was also the Lamb.

Fenris
Mar 24th 2008, 03:08 PM
I hear that. But just so you know... I'm serious and would really enjoy it. You guys could even come here and we'd do it here... you'd be more than welcome and we'd love it. :)
Much appreciated. :)