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Roelof
Mar 16th 2008, 03:33 PM
In a ground breaking move Pope Benedict XVI has approved the setting up of a permanent Catholic-Muslim Forum - the first of its kind - which is to hold its inaugural summit meeting in the Vatican in November.
The historic move follows three days of talks in Rome between Vatican officials and a Muslim delegation representing 138 Muslim scholars who last year wrote an open letter to the Pope and other Christian leaders calling for dialogue, a move inspired by Prince Ghazi bin Muhammed bin Talal of Jordan.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3494863.ece

menJesus
Mar 16th 2008, 06:56 PM
Mmmm... what does this all mean??? :(

Merton
Mar 16th 2008, 08:41 PM
Mmmm... what does this all mean??? :(


It means the continuence of the RCC tactic whereby if they can not defeat them then bring them into the fold under the Popes influence and control and weaken them until they are changed and their aims destroyed.

All anti-christs agree that Jesus is the Christ and that He did come in the flesh, but not as He really was in the flesh but as some other to what He really was and is.

Thus they show themselves to be an example of what Christ was in the flesh, when He was nothing like what they portray Him as.

Read 1John in that light.

The RCC is the modern equivalent of Moab of the OT ( a people through the uncircumcised flesh of a believer, originally Lot )

All anti-christ and false Christs come into the world by that route, and deceive people of wavering heart who do not lay down their entire life to Christ AFTER being called by God to do so. 2 Peter ch 2.

Even those who do not turn back from entire sanctification often display something of anti-christ along the way before repenting and moving on, and the experience brings one down low when one comes to the full knowledge of it in oneself, as all men are from the same Adamic flesh.

Read Numbers chapter 25 and before.


Mat 24:4 And answering, Jesus said to them, See that not any leads you astray.
Mat 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ. And they will cause many to be led astray.

Men have stated that anti-christ can not confess that Jesus is the Christ and has come in the flesh.

What a deception that is.

The Spirit of the anti-christ confesses another life than that of Christ through its subjects, but can say anything with their mouth that a submissive believer can say.---

How did Jesus recognise the difference between the false and the true--

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,Joh 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.


Luk 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.


The RCC and like groups cannot defeat the movement of God by force so they have learnt to subvert it, bring it under their control, by deceiving its subjects before they grow strong.

Islam of course is not a movement of God so they will be easy to deceive and come under the chief anti-christ in the world who serve the beast of the west, however many a true believer today is entangled in that.--



Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

I must add that when deception of Gods people fails then they will go back to the old method, (and fail)

Merton.

Jerome1
Mar 16th 2008, 09:50 PM
I think its a good idea by the Pope, i heard a muslim speak the other day, and if you didn't know he was a muslim you would have assumed he was a chrsitian.

I am positive there are countless muslims who are more zealous for God and are more charitable than a lot of their hypocritical christian counterparts.

RevLogos
Mar 17th 2008, 04:32 AM
This can come to no good at all.


A follow up conference is to be held in a Muslim country yet to be decided, according to Ali Aref Nayed, director of the Royal Islamic Strategic Studies Centre in Amman. He said the response to the Group of 138's call for dialogue had been "incredibly positive". The aim was to "return to the roots of faith and what we have in common". Theologically, Christianity and Islam have nothing in common. They are about as opposite as they could possibly be.


He appealed for the release of Chaldean Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho, who was kidnapped last week in Iraq, declaring: "We take this opportunity to remind our fellow Muslims that it is against the Prophet's teaching to even touch religious leaders and monks and priests. Religious leaders and religious symbols must be respected." All of this is so horribly wrong and false. It is not at all against Muhammadís teachings to respect leaders of other religions. Religious leaders and symbols contrary to Islam are to be destroyed. So say Allah. Christians and Jews are cursed by Allah. And by the way, the Archbishop was murdered.

Roelof
Mar 17th 2008, 05:55 AM
There was even a Muslim version of the Jesus film produced:

In this film Jesus was a prophet and was not crucified.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/faith...sus/index.html (http://timesonline.typepad.com/faith...sus/index.html)

Athanasius
Mar 17th 2008, 06:43 AM
I think its a good idea by the Pope, i heard a muslim speak the other day, and if you didn't know he was a muslim you would have assumed he was a chrsitian.

I am positive there are countless muslims who are more zealous for God and are more charitable than a lot of their hypocritical christian counterparts.

They are more zealous for their god, perhaps. Which is a failing of Western Christianity (among many other failings). But to bring in the hypocritical Christian is being overly demeaning of Christianity--it's unnecessary.


There was even a Muslim version of the Jesus film produced:

In this film Jesus was a prophet and was not crucified.

Muslims hold Jesus in a very high regard, for how they view him.

RevLogos
Mar 17th 2008, 01:33 PM
There was even a Muslim version of the Jesus film produced:

In this film Jesus was a prophet and was not crucified.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/faith...sus/index.html (http://timesonline.typepad.com/faith...sus/index.html)

A "Muhammad Film" would have to be rated R for graphic violence and sexual themes.

diffangle
Mar 17th 2008, 01:52 PM
Muslims hold Jesus in a very high regard, for how they view him.
High regard? They tell a different story about Him... so they make Him out to be a liar. :(

RevLogos
Mar 17th 2008, 02:03 PM
What Xel'Naga says is correct. But it is very important to understand the Islamic Jesus is NOT Jesus. In the Muslim end-times, their Jesus will return to abolish Christianity and kill the Jews.

RevLogos
Mar 17th 2008, 02:06 PM
High regard? They tell a different story about Him... so they make Him out to be a liar. :(

Muslims believe the New Testament is corrupted; a hoax. Jesus was not the Son of God, did not die on the cross, did not say or do any of the things we believe he said or did. Jesus was a Muslim who actually prophesied the coming of Muhammad. In their view, it is not Jesus who was the liar, but the Christians who fabricated a false New Testament about him.

Roelof
Mar 17th 2008, 02:16 PM
In the Muslim end-times, their Jesus will return to abolish Christianity and kill the Jews.

Revolvr

Can you please give us more information?

diffangle
Mar 17th 2008, 02:18 PM
[quote=Revolvr;1575459]Muslims believe the New Testament is corrupted; a hoax. Jesus was not the Son of God, did not die on the cross, did not say or do any of the things we believe he said or did.
I know... sad. :(




Jesus was a Muslim who actually prophesied the coming of Muhammad. In their view, it is not Jesus who was the liar, but the Christians who fabricated a false New Testament about him.

Considering that there was no such thing as a Muslim until 600 years after Messiah walked the earth, makes sense that they would "claim" to know the truth over the disciples who knew Him up close and personal during His earthly mission. :rolleyes:

RevLogos
Mar 17th 2008, 02:28 PM
Revolvr

Can you please give us more information?

Islamic tradition teaches that because Jesus will declare himself to be a Muslim, he will lead many Christians to convert to Islam. Regarding those who do not convert to Islam, the Quran states that Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Judgment:
There is not one of the People of the Scripture (Christians and Jews) but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them. (Surah 4:159)
It is crucial to understand that according to Islamic tradition and belief, when Jesus returns, he does not merely come to convert most Christians to Islam but to literally abolish Christianity entirely. This fact is understood when we analyze a very well-known, and oft-quoted tradition that refers to four specific things that Jesus will do when he returns. Jesus is said to:
Break crosses (meaning destroy Christianity)
Kill all swine (meaning the Jews of course).
Abolish the jizyah tax (a Muslim tax on non-Muslims)
Kill the Muslim Antichrist and his followers.The Prophet said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus. He will descent (sic) (to the earth)Ö He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam.

Abolishing jizyah is important. This tax is on non-Muslims. It is abolished because there are no more non-Muslims, either by death or conversion.

The Muslim Jesus is equivalent to the Christian False Prophet.

HisLeast
Mar 17th 2008, 02:51 PM
Considering that there was no such thing as a Muslim until 600 years after Messiah walked the earth, makes sense that they would "claim" to know the truth over the disciples who knew Him up close and personal during His earthly mission. :rolleyes:

Not to throw a wrench in the whole works... but Orthodox Jews think the same thing of Christians as we do about Muslisms. That after hundreds (and in this case thousands), a group of people appear claiming to know God's revelation in a more accurate (but mutually exclusive!) manner.

diffangle
Mar 17th 2008, 02:59 PM
Not to throw a wrench in the whole works... but Orthodox Jews think the same thing of Christians as we do about Muslisms. That after hundreds (and in this case thousands), a group of people appear claiming to know God's revelation in a more accurate (but mutually exclusive!) manner.
The difference there is that Yahushua in our New Testament doesn't contradict the OT unlike the conflict that occurs in the Muslim's understanding of Yahushua.

HisLeast
Mar 17th 2008, 03:46 PM
The difference there is that Yahushua in our New Testament doesn't contradict the OT unlike the conflict that occurs in the Muslim's understanding of Yahushua.

Well thats the rub, isn't it. From our perspective Jesus doesn't contradict the OT, but I'm sure an Orthodox Jew would beg to differ... specifically in the concepts of one man atoning for another, human sacrifice, and the "division" of God the Trinity represents.

Now, the Muslims do have to assume human corruption in Old & New testament texts in order to cover to reconcile the difference between them and the Qu'ran.

Athanasius
Mar 17th 2008, 03:49 PM
High regard? They tell a different story about Him... so they make Him out to be a liar. :(


What Xel'Naga says is correct. But it is very important to understand the Islamic Jesus is NOT Jesus. In the Muslim end-times, their Jesus will return to abolish Christianity and kill the Jews.

Thanks for further clarifying Revolvr. Yes, diffangle, they hold Jesus in high regard for how they view him. I also don't think it's been mentioned, but Jesus comes back, judges the world, absolishes everything and then dies.

diffangle
Mar 17th 2008, 04:01 PM
[quote=HisLeast;1575549]Well thats the rub, isn't it. From our perspective Jesus doesn't contradict the OT, but I'm sure an Orthodox Jew would beg to differ... specifically in the concepts of one man atoning for another, human sacrifice,
The Orthodox have to do some twisting to ignore Isaiah 53. ;)




Now, the Muslims do have to assume human corruption in Old & New testament texts in order to cover to reconcile the difference between them and the Qu'ran.
Yes indeed.

Roelof
Mar 17th 2008, 04:54 PM
Revolvr

Thanks for the good explanation

Jerome1
Mar 17th 2008, 06:40 PM
They are more zealous for their god, perhaps. Which is a failing of Western Christianity (among many other failings). But to bring in the hypocritical Christian is being overly demeaning of Christianity--it's unnecessary.

When i stated more zealous for God, I meant in their search for obeying the one true God. I don't think it's demeaning to state that there are hypocritical christians, just the truth.

Just because someone calls themselves a christian doesn't automatically make them more charitable than those who don't.

quiet dove
Mar 17th 2008, 11:19 PM
When i stated more zealous for God, I meant in their search for obeying the one true God. I don't think it's demeaning to state that there are hypocritical christians, just the truth.

Just because someone calls themselves a christian doesn't automatically make them more charitable than those who don't.

Since when is Allah the one true God?

Jerome1
Mar 17th 2008, 11:29 PM
Since when is Allah the one true God?

Read my answer again, thats not what i said.

I said there are muslims who are zealous in seeking to obey the one true God.

Athanasius
Mar 17th 2008, 11:29 PM
I don't think it's demeaning to state that there are hypocritical christians, just the truth.

Just because someone calls themselves a christian doesn't automatically make them more charitable than those who don't.

My point is, is that it's not worth pointing out.

Jerome1
Mar 17th 2008, 11:35 PM
My point is, is that it's not worth pointing out.

So if someone is a hypocritical chrsitian you don't think it's worth pointing out?

Athanasius
Mar 17th 2008, 11:59 PM
So if someone is a hypocritical chrsitian you don't think it's worth pointing out?

I don't think it's worth pointing out that there are hypocritical Christians every time we talk about the church and compare it to other religions. You're taking what I've said out of the context my comments were said in.

Jerome1
Mar 18th 2008, 12:08 AM
I don't think it's worth pointing out that there are hypocritical Christians every time we talk about the church and compare it to other religions. You're taking what I've said out of the context my comments were said in.

So you think it is right for people to judge all Muslims, and not point out their own faults?

Shouldn't we take the log out of our own eyes before we can see the speck in our neighbours eye?(Matthew7:5)

I don't judge anyone, only God knows the hearts of all men, so i don't cast the first stone so to speak.

Athanasius
Mar 18th 2008, 12:33 AM
So you think it is right for people to judge all Muslims, and not point out their own faults?

Shouldn't we take the log out of our own eyes before we can see the speck in our neighbours eye?(Matthew7:5)

I don't judge anyone, only God knows the hearts of all men, so i don't cast the first stone so to speak.

No one in this thread should be judging Muslims; that's not the point of this thread. Your first comment would have been fine, but there's no need to start going after Christians.



I am positive there are countless muslims who are more zealous for God and are more charitable than a lot of their hypocritical christian counterparts.

You're misappropriating scripture, by the way. There's no point in continuing with you.

RevLogos
Mar 18th 2008, 12:38 AM
So you think it is right for people to judge all Muslims, and not point out their own faults?

Shouldn't we take the log out of our own eyes before we can see the speck in our neighbours eye?(Matthew7:5)

I don't judge anyone, only God knows the hearts of all men, so i don't cast the first stone so to speak.

It is not for us to judge Muslims. But we certainly can judge Islam.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.
Muslims are held captive by Satan and fear of their God. They do not know what itís like to be accepted and fully loved by God. Muslims are ordinary people just like you and me, who seek out God. Even though they follow the religion of Satan, they are still created in the image of God. Our outreach to them should never be in hatred, but in love and TRUTH.

Jerome1
Mar 18th 2008, 01:20 AM
It is not for us to judge Muslims. But we certainly can judge Islam.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.
Muslims are held captive by Satan and fear of their God. They do not know what it’s like to be accepted and fully loved by God. Muslims are ordinary people just like you and me, who seek out God. Even though they follow the religion of Satan, they are still created in the image of God. Our outreach to them should never be in hatred, but in love and TRUTH.


Am I the only one who sees the paradox here?


No one in this thread should be judging Muslims; that's not the point of this thread. Your first comment would have been fine, but there's no need to start going after Christians.

No one is going after christians, i am just stating a fact that there are hypocritical christians.

FaithfulSheep
Mar 18th 2008, 01:47 AM
Going back to the original topic... You know, it seems the more the world goes on, the worse it gets. Which I know is going to happen, but it appears to be happening at an even more rapid pace. Deception is increasing so quickly now it seems. I guess while in a way this news surprises me, in another, it really doesn't.