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Stefen
Mar 16th 2008, 05:23 PM
Jesus is one with the Father and we are one with Him, would you say that we are one with God now?

Jesus is the word made flesh, since we are his body would you say we are the word?

Jesus is the first among many, when he appears we will be just like Him, would that make us divine?

Do we become a part of Elohim?

Athanasius
Mar 16th 2008, 05:28 PM
Jesus is God. . . To compare, that's like saying Jesus is people, and people are Jesus.
So no, we aren't divine. . .

Stefen
Mar 16th 2008, 05:39 PM
Jesus is God. . . To compare, that's like saying Jesus is people, and people are Jesus.
So no, we aren't divine. . .

Well aren't we born again, made into new creatures? If we have the spirit of God in us doesn't that make us a prt of God?

Peter said we are partakers of God's divine nature.

Aren't we suppose to become just as he is?

Athanasius
Mar 16th 2008, 05:42 PM
Well aren't we born again, made into new creatures? If we have the spirit of God in us doesn't that make us a prt of God?

Peter said we are partakers of God's divine nature.

Aren't we suppose to become just as he is?

Remind me where Peter says that? I mean, this thought is verging very much on New Age spirituality. The Spirit of God can be in us, but that doesn't make us divine. It's there, but it's separate, if that makes sense.

Mograce2U
Mar 16th 2008, 06:18 PM
Well aren't we born again, made into new creatures? If we have the spirit of God in us doesn't that make us a prt of God?

Peter said we are partakers of God's divine nature.

Aren't we suppose to become just as he is?
(1 John 4:17 KJV) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

The big difference here is that Jesus knew no sin and His love was already perfect in oneness with the Father. We are like Him, but the presence of sin requires that our love be perfected. Yet we are still creatures and will never be as the Creator.

God is not dwelling in His creatures in the sense the Pantheist assumes that everything "is God" because He created it. What He shares with us still belongs to Him. His life is in us, but it is His life and He retains complete control over who has it and who does not. And we cannot ever wield His power for ourselves even though He works thru us.

Those who say we are made to be "little gods" also fail to take into consideration that without Him we are nothing, and our life is but a vapor. It is only God who can keep our soul alive:

(Psa 22:29 KJV) All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

For one to be like God in the sense you are asking, he would have to have this power within himself in the same sense that Jesus does who alone is Life Eternal. But only He possesses that life and is able to give it to another and sustain it.

If anybody puts their faith in Stefen (or me) it won't get them that!

Stefen
Mar 16th 2008, 06:33 PM
Remind me where Peter says that? I mean, this thought is verging very much on New Age spirituality.

2 Peter 1:3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

I don't see where this is close to new age thought at all. i am just repearting what Jesus and his desciples said.


The Spirit of God can be in us, but that doesn't make us divine. It's there, but it's separate, if that makes sense.

I don't understand how God's spirit can be in us but be seperate from us. Jesus said we are one with him and the Father if we are truly his.

Stefen
Mar 16th 2008, 06:46 PM
(1 John 4:17 KJV) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

The big difference here is that Jesus knew no sin and His love was already perfect in oneness with the Father. We are like Him, but the presence of sin requires that our love be perfected. Yet we are still creatures and will never be as the Creator.

God is not dwelling in His creatures in the sense the Pantheist assumes that everything "is God" because He created it. What He shares with us still belongs to Him. His life is in us, but it is His life and He retains complete control over who has it and who does not. And we cannot ever wield His power for ourselves even though He works thru us.

Those who say we are made to be "little gods" also fail to take into consideration that without Him we are nothing, and our life is but a vapor. It is only God who can keep our soul alive:

(Psa 22:29 KJV) All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

For one to be like God in the sense you are asking, he would have to have this power within himself in the same sense that Jesus does who alone is Life Eternal. But only He possesses that life and is able to give it to another and sustain it.

If anybody puts their faith in Stefen (or me) it won't get them that!

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are taking me out of context.

I do not believe that anyone can put there trust in me or any one else for eternal life except Jesus.

What I am exploring is the work and gift that God has given to us through Jesus.

1 John 3
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%203&version=31#fen-NIV-30566a)]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

Mograce2U
Mar 16th 2008, 07:30 PM
I understand what you are saying, but I think you are taking me out of context.

I do not believe that anyone can put there trust in me or any one else for eternal life except Jesus.

What I am exploring is the work and gift that God has given to us through Jesus.

1 John 3
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%203&version=31#fen-NIV-30566a)]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.I think I got the context correctly according to what you asked as to whether or not WE become divine - like Jesus. Jesus was already God, we are not and never will be.

Athanasius
Mar 16th 2008, 07:35 PM
2 Peter 1:3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

I don't see where this is close to new age thought at all. i am just repearting what Jesus and his desciples said.

All that means is that God is 'supporting' us. It doesn't mean we are an integral part of God, or one with God, or intertwined with God. If you take this and proclaim that we are one with God, therefore divine, then you would be espousing a new age thought--we are gods.

God is in us, but He is still Him, and we are still us.



I don't understand how God's spirit can be in us but be seperate from us. Jesus said we are one with him and the Father if we are truly his.

Where does Jesus say that?

Stefen
Mar 16th 2008, 08:27 PM
Where does Jesus say that?

John 17

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Stefen
Mar 16th 2008, 08:53 PM
All that means is that God is 'supporting' us. It doesn't mean we are an integral part of God, or one with God, or intertwined with God. If you take this and proclaim that we are one with God, therefore divine, then you would be espousing a new age thought--we are gods.

LOL.

Psalm 82

A Psalm of Asaph.

1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2082;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-15235a)]
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

6 I said, “You are gods,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2082;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-15240b)]
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.

We are made in His image, the image that was lost in Eden. I think Jesus came to bring us back into His image. You must be born from above or again. We are new creatures in the Christ, a new man, made new. This doesn't really sound New Age to me, it sound old age.

New Agers believe they are God alone apart from being in the Chirst, who is Jesus God's Son. They believe the make there own world and control there own universe. I believe we are adopted in to the family of God, made into the likeness of God's son, through His son.

Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

1 John 3

1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!Therefore the world does not know us,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%203;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30575b)] because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure

ProjectPeter
Mar 17th 2008, 01:49 PM
Acts 14:11 And when the multitudes saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have become like men and have come down to us."
12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker.
13 And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds.
14 But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out
15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you in order that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

We are simply men... not God.

VerticalReality
Mar 17th 2008, 02:04 PM
Jesus is one with the Father and we are one with Him, would you say that we are one with God now?

Jesus is the word made flesh, since we are his body would you say we are the word?

Jesus is the first among many, when he appears we will be just like Him, would that make us divine?

Do we become a part of Elohim?

We are one with Him in spirit . . .



1 Corinthians 6:15-17
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.


However, that does not mean we are God or we're the same as Him. Look at Peter when the beggar at the gate called beautiful was healed. He went out of his way to make those folks aware that he was just a man. He was not God and was not worthy of worship. Only God is to be worshipped. It's the same with Jesus. Jesus didn't correct folks when they worshipped Him. However, He was and is God. It is not the same for us.

Friend of I AM
Mar 17th 2008, 03:04 PM
Jesus is one with the Father and we are one with Him, would you say that we are one with God now?

Jesus is the word made flesh, since we are his body would you say we are the word?

Jesus is the first among many, when he appears we will be just like Him, would that make us divine?

Do we become a part of Elohim?

Even Jesus acknowledged only one God. Even though he didn't deny himself being equal to God or God himself. So to answer your question, no there is only one God. Below is the model we should follow in our Christian walk in worshiping God and Christ -


yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things
and for whom we exist, and one Lord,Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist... (I Corinthians 8:5-6)


Even when we are one with Christ in our walks, we still possess a certain degree of individuality just as the disciples did, or just as Christ does with the Father. Think of it this way, one body - many parts. The Father being the head, Christ being the body, and everyone in Christ being members of the body.


In Christ,


Stephen

Stefen
Mar 17th 2008, 07:01 PM
We are one with Him in spirit . . .



However, that does not mean we are God or we're the same as Him. Look at Peter when the beggar at the gate called beautiful was healed. He went out of his way to make those folks aware that he was just a man. He was not God and was not worthy of worship. Only God is to be worshipped. It's the same with Jesus. Jesus didn't correct folks when they worshipped Him. However, He was and is God. It is not the same for us.

I agree that we are not to be worshipped. What I am suggesting is that right now we have the spirit of God in us, which is the same spirit that Jesus and the Father have in them. That means that Gods divine spirit has united with ours.

Also once Jesus returns we will become just like him, and we will sit on His throne with Him.

Stefen
Mar 17th 2008, 07:05 PM
Even when we are one with Christ in our walks, we still possess a certain degree of individuality just as the disciples did, or just as Christ does with the Father. Think of it this way, one body - many parts. The Father being the head, Christ being the body, and everyone in Christ being members of the body.


In Christ,



Stephen


That is what I am getting at, we are member of the body of the Christ, we are coheirs with Jesus, we have been united with the ONE God in spirit, and one day our bodies will be like Jesus' as well. so just as jesus is one with the Father, so are we, and even more so when our bodies are changed too.

Friend of I AM
Mar 17th 2008, 08:09 PM
That is what I am getting at, we are member of the body of the Christ, we are coheirs with Jesus, we have been united with the ONE God in spirit, and one day our bodies will be like Jesus' as well. so just as jesus is one with the Father, so are we, and even more so when our bodies are changed too.

There's a particular verse that does say that the glory of God resides in you in one of Paul's epistles, I can't remember which one it is. But it isn't meant to be taken in the sense that we are divine like Christ, as one can see from 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 as it states that there is only one God that we are supposed to worship.

It is meant to support what has already been stated within the scriptures and as you've posted above, that we as believers are filled with the Spirit of Christ within us - and being such we are united with God in the spirit of Love and Truth(or Christ).

Stefen
Mar 17th 2008, 08:25 PM
There's a particular verse that does say that the glory of God resides in you in one of Paul's epistles, I can't remember which one it is. But it isn't meant to be taken in the sense that we are divine like Christ, as one can see from 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 as it states that there is only one God that we are supposed to worship.

It is meant to support what has already been stated within the scriptures and as you've posted above, that we as believers are filled with the Spirit of Christ within us - and being such we are united with God in the spirit of Love and Truth(or Christ).

I already agreed that the one God is the only one to be worshiped. If we are suppose to become JUST like Jesus than we all become Sons just like He is, through the adoption of His Spirit and Blood.

Friend of I AM
Mar 18th 2008, 12:36 PM
I already agreed that the one God is the only one to be worshiped. If we are suppose to become JUST like Jesus than we all become Sons just like He is, through the adoption of His Spirit and Blood.

I Corinthian 14:36-37
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Yes but you also asked the question are we the Word when we are in him. The answer to that question is no, as the Word itself was not created nor did it originate from ourselves it originated from God. It was always one and considered equal to the Father. Though it uses it's followers as spokesmen at time, we are essentially still servants of the Word, or specifically -Christ Jesus.

Regarding our attitude in Christ, one should strive to have that of his in our walk.

Philippians 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

In Christ,

Stephen

Toymom
Mar 18th 2008, 04:36 PM
I agree that we are not to be worshipped. What I am suggesting is that right now we have the spirit of God in us, which is the same spirit that Jesus and the Father have in them. That means that Gods divine spirit has united with ours.

Also once Jesus returns we will become just like him, and we will sit on His throne with Him.
Christ is the Head and we are the body. When we are regenerated we gain Christ's life and nature, but never His Godhead, never His authority.
Yes, we do have His Spirit in us and in Him we are one.

Stefen
Mar 18th 2008, 05:28 PM
Christ is the Head and we are the body. When we are regenerated we gain Christ's life and nature, but never His Godhead,

I agree


never His authority.

Jesus has given us His authority here on earth over many things; when he returns some will be given the authority to judge and rule the nations with his authority.

Teke
Mar 18th 2008, 05:44 PM
Jesus is one with the Father and we are one with Him, would you say that we are one with God now?

Jesus is the word made flesh, since we are his body would you say we are the word?

Jesus is the first among many, when he appears we will be just like Him, would that make us divine?

Do we become a part of Elohim?

In English we say "of God". Just like we say the Son "of God" the Holy Spirit "of God". But we never say that of the Father (ie. not, Father "of God').

Stefen
Mar 18th 2008, 05:49 PM
In English we say "of God". Just like we say the Son "of God" the Holy Spirit "of God". But we never say that of the Father (ie. not, Father "of God').

I think I might understand what you are getting at, help me out a little more. I understand your statement but how are you relating it to what I have said :)

Friend of I AM
Mar 19th 2008, 01:33 PM
Christ is the Head and we are the body. When we are regenerated we gain Christ's life and nature, but never His Godhead, never His authority.
Yes, we do have His Spirit in us and in Him we are one.

This is correct. There will be least and geatest even in heaven, but still only one God whom has all authority over everything. We need to be very careful nowadays about how we present being one with God. Despite the fact that he imparts his spirit, Word, grace, and character upon us - there is still only one God. A good analogy would be to think of God as a well of everlasting water, and each of us as pots being continually filled by this water. We will still remain pots, despite being continually filled with water from the well.

In Christ,

Stephen

Teke
Mar 19th 2008, 02:20 PM
I think I might understand what you are getting at, help me out a little more. I understand your statement but how are you relating it to what I have said :)

I typed it like it should be related, as "of". As created beings we can only share what God gives us with Him, such as grace, mercy, love, the energies of God, which we participate in. We can even share in His nature to some extent, because He became flesh for us. But we can never share or know His essence.

So when you ask, does that make us "divine", the answer is yes in a sense. For this aspect think about the Church which is the Body of Christ. And think of that in the context of Trinity theology, which declares Christ's divinity. That being fully human and fully divine.

Now since we are not Christ in Person, but are "of" Him as His Body the Church, we are both human and divine in a united way, that being the Church. IOW individually we aren't these things, but corporately (in the sense of being united as "one") we are.

Friend of I AM
Mar 19th 2008, 02:58 PM
I typed it like it should be related, as "of". As created beings we can only share what God gives us with Him, such as grace, mercy, love, the energies of God, which we participate in. We can even share in His nature to some extent, because He became flesh for us. But we can never share or know His essence.

So when you ask, does that make us "divine", the answer is yes in a sense. For this aspect think about the Church which is the Body of Christ. And think of that in the context of Trinity theology, which declares Christ's divinity. That being fully human and fully divine.

Now since we are not Christ in Person, but are "of" Him as His Body the Church, we are both human and divine in a united way, that being the Church. IOW individually we aren't these things, but corporately (in the sense of being united as "one") we are.


Hey Teke,

Interesting analogy and thank you for sharing it. I'm more along the lines that we possess divine attributes only when in the presence of God, but are not truly divine in the sense that the Lord is based on the fact that we are not self-sustaining/uncreated/originators like him.

Christ is the vine, we are the branches. Even while being members of his body we're only sustained and continue to exist because of him. God doesn't need us to survive, we do indeed need him though.

I think this is where individuals can get confused when they say something like "I'm one with God thus I am a god" or "I'm filled with God's grace thus I am a god." Sure, God in his loving nature shares with us his many characteristics that you've mentioned, but those things didn't originate from ourselves. That's where the true distinction between us Christ and the Father is, and that is where it always will be. We are created beings, and there will always be only one creator of us all, whom has always existed.

In Christ,

Stephen

Teke
Mar 19th 2008, 03:34 PM
Hey Teke,

Interesting analogy and thank you for sharing it. I'm more along the lines that we possess divine attributes only when in the presence of God, but are not truly divine in the sense that the Lord is based on the fact that we are not self-sustaining/uncreated/originators like him.

Your welcome.:)
I'm a Trinitarian Christian (Eastern Orthodox to be precise), so my explanation is in line with that line of theological thought. I agree we are not "self-sustaining/uncreated/originators like him", which is why I relate that aspect as "essence". No created being can know His essence. Yet we must explain how we are alive in His Spirit. Couple terms I use to describe this is, "synergy" or "transfiguration by grace".


Christ is the vine, we are the branches. Even while being members of his body we're only sustained and continue to exist because of him. God doesn't need us to survive, we do indeed need him though.

:amen:


I think this is where individuals can get confused when they say something like "I'm one with God thus I am a god" or "I'm filled with God's grace thus I am a god." Sure, God in his loving nature shares with us his many characteristics that you've mentioned, but those things didn't originate from ourselves. That's where the true distinction between us Christ and the Father is, and that is where it always will be. We are created beings, and there will always be only one creator of us all, whom has always existed.

In Christ,

Stephen

Scriptures reference to us as "gods" is in the sense of judging. We stand in judgment daily, judging everything, ourselves, others, as well as material things. However this judgment is not (least should not be) in the penal sense of finality, but in the sense of experience. This is how I believe synergy between us and God exists. And is also how we are to understand why we were created to experience such things as love, suffering, etc, the human passions which effect us.

It is our reaction to such things which moves the Holy Spirit to further us in our spiritual growth in God. Experience is our ontological relationship as created beings. Since as created beings we are experiential by nature.

Blessings

Friend of I AM
Mar 19th 2008, 03:50 PM
Your welcome.:)
I'm a Trinitarian Christian (Eastern Orthodox to be precise), so my explanation is in line with that line of theological thought. I agree we are not "self-sustaining/uncreated/originators like him", which is why I relate that aspect as "essence". No created being can know His essence. Yet we must explain how we are alive in His Spirit. Couple terms I use to describe this is, "synergy" or "transfiguration by grace".


:amen:


Scriptures reference to us as "gods" is in the sense of judging. We stand in judgment daily, judging everything, ourselves, others, as well as material things. However this judgment is not (least should not be) in the penal sense of finality, but in the sense of experience. This is how I believe synergy between us and God exists. And is also how we are to understand why we were created to experience such things as love, suffering, etc, the human passions which effect us.

It is our reaction to such things which moves the Holy Spirit to further us in our spiritual growth in God. Experience is our ontological relationship as created beings. Since as created beings we are experiential by nature.

Blessings

Thanks for that clarification Teke, I grew up a Baptist, which incorporates some Trinitarian doctrine in it(mainly just the 3 aspects of God being Father, Son, and Spirit) - though I still don't have a complete understanding of the Trinity itself..*laugh*.

Blessings to you as well.

Teke
Mar 19th 2008, 04:54 PM
Thanks for that clarification Teke, I grew up a Baptist,

I didn't grow up as anything, but when God revealed His Son to me I began my search in the Baptist churches. History led me from there with the Holy Spirit.


which incorporates some Trinitarian doctrine in it(mainly just the 3 aspects of God being Father, Son, and Spirit) - though I still don't have a complete understanding of the Trinity itself..*laugh*.

Blessings to you as well.

I find Trinity theology and dogma helps keep a Christian grounded very well. As many popular doctrines are not compatible with it at all, such as Calvinisms predestination theories ("divine simplicity" within Trinity theology, negates such a concept as Calvinisms predestination view).

And I continue to study it myself. This Paschal cycle (Lent, which just began in the eastern church) I am going to delve into "The Way to Nicaea", volume 1, Formation of Christian Theology, by John Behr. I thought I'd challenge myself a bit more.:saint:

Yolande~
Mar 19th 2008, 06:43 PM
Stefen, I am following you :)

You have received a revelation of something incredible.

Stefen
Mar 19th 2008, 08:20 PM
Stefen, I am following you :)

You have received a revelation of something incredible.

:pp

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Stefen
Mar 19th 2008, 08:43 PM
I think this is where individuals can get confused when they say something like "I'm one with God thus I am a god" or "I'm filled with God's grace thus I am a god." Sure, God in his loving nature shares with us his many characteristics that you've mentioned, but those things didn't originate from ourselves. That's where the true distinction between us Christ and the Father is, and that is where it always will be. We are created beings, and there will always be only one creator of us all, whom has always existed.

This is where you misunderstand me. I am not implying that we are seperate individual Gods, I am implying that we have be joined in union with the one God. God has brought us into himself.

Here read this Psalm, keep in mind that the capital God and lower case god are the same word in the Hebrew, Elohim.

Psalm 82

A psalm of Asaph.

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods": (Elohim)

2 "How long will you [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2082;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15236a)] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim)
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim), judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Just as Jesus is one with Elohim and is infact Elohim, we have been made like Jesus, born from above, from where Jesus came from and is, and have become one with Elohim. That is why Jesus little siblings are all One. We are one with the Father who is Elohim, with Jesus who is Elohim, and each other who has been married, joined together with Elohim.

Mograce2U
Mar 20th 2008, 03:36 AM
Stefen,

Just as Jesus is one with Elohim and is infact Elohim, we have been made like Jesus, born from above, from where Jesus came from and is, and have become one with Elohim. That is why Jesus little siblings are all One. We are one with the Father who is Elohim, with Jesus who is Elohim, and each other who has been married, joined together with Elohim.

Yet as close as the conjugal oneness makes us, we do not lose our identity. Stephen shares my point that it is about where the power originates. We are never going to be able to wield the power of God for ourselves in the way that He does - whether we are joined to Him or not. Our oneness is a positional term, not an actual one.

Your child can be a carbon copy of you and yet he will never BE you.

Friend of I AM
Mar 20th 2008, 12:05 PM
Just as Jesus is one with Elohim and is infact Elohim, we have been made like Jesus, born from above, from where Jesus came from and is, and have become one with Elohim. That is why Jesus little siblings are all One. We are one with the Father who is Elohim, with Jesus who is Elohim, and each other who has been married, joined together with Elohim.


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Christ is truly divine, we are not. We are not self sustaining/originators as God himself is, thus we are not entirely like Jesus - as he is uncreated and has the very same glory as the Father.

Think of the analogy I gave earlier. God is the master potter, and we are pots crafted by him. The potter fills each pot with a little bit of his substance. Think of the substance of him being the spirit of his son, Christ Jesus. Though we are filled with the substance of the potter, it would be illogical for the pot to then come back to the potter and say "I am the potter" after being filled with his substance.

So the answer to your question of "do we become the Word" when we are one with God is no. Though we are one with God through the spirit of his son, we are not God himself nor will we ever be. We are indeed recognized by the Father as his sons though, through the spirit of his only begotten son, Christ Jesus.

In Christ,

Stephen

Teke
Mar 20th 2008, 12:58 PM
Stefen,


Yet as close as the conjugal oneness makes us, we do not lose our identity. Stephen shares my point that it is about where the power originates. We are never going to be able to wield the power of God for ourselves in the way that He does - whether we are joined to Him or not. Our oneness is a positional term, not an actual one.

Your child can be a carbon copy of you and yet he will never BE you.

Good point Morgrace2U. We don't lose our identity, which is our soul.
"Our oneness is a positional term, not an actual one", this shouldn't be confused with Jesus position in the Trinity. We are "adopted' sons, and "the bride" to use some terms from scripture which differentiate and clarify our position.

Friend of I AM
Mar 20th 2008, 01:24 PM
Stefen,


Yet as close as the conjugal oneness makes us, we do not lose our identity. Stephen shares my point that it is about where the power originates. We are never going to be able to wield the power of God for ourselves in the way that He does - whether we are joined to Him or not. Our oneness is a positional term, not an actual one.

Your child can be a carbon copy of you and yet he will never BE you.

We are given a certain degree of authority/power while on this earth from God while being in Christ, but it's important to remember where this authority comes from, and whose authority it really is - as well as what it's been given to us for. As Christ himself stated, do not be glad that we have command over these things which we've been given power over, but instead be joyful that are names are written as sons of God in heaven.

Even Christ acknowledged that all authority he had, was given to him by the Father. Let us also follow his model in our lives, by acknowledging Christ as our one and only Lord, as well as rejoicing in the fact that he has considered us worthy to be called his brothers, as oppossed to the authority he has shared with us. Or to simplify, make the reward of our life being able to fellowship with God, as oppossed to anything else he has given.

In Christ,

Stephen

Edit: Sorry for any miscommunication. I actually agree with the point that you stated above about us not being God by being one with him, just extrapolating on it a bit more..:)

Yolande~
Mar 20th 2008, 02:49 PM
Hey Teke,

Interesting analogy and thank you for sharing it. I'm more along the lines that we possess divine attributes only when in the presence of God, but are not truly divine in the sense that the Lord is based on the fact that we are not self-sustaining/uncreated/originators like him.

Christ is the vine, we are the branches. Even while being members of his body we're only sustained and continue to exist because of him. God doesn't need us to survive, we do indeed need him though.

I think this is where individuals can get confused when they say something like "I'm one with God thus I am a god" or "I'm filled with God's grace thus I am a god." Sure, God in his loving nature shares with us his many characteristics that you've mentioned, but those things didn't originate from ourselves. That's where the true distinction between us Christ and the Father is, and that is where it always will be. We are created beings, and there will always be only one creator of us all, whom has always existed.

In Christ,

Stephen

Amen Stephen and Amen! In Him we live and move and have our being.

Yolande~
Mar 20th 2008, 03:19 PM
This is where you misunderstand me. I am not implying that we are seperate individual Gods, I am implying that we have be joined in union with the one God. God has brought us into himself.

Just as Jesus is one with Elohim and is infact Elohim, we have been made like Jesus, born from above, from where Jesus came from and is, and have become one with Elohim. That is why Jesus little siblings are all One. We are one with the Father who is Elohim, with Jesus who is Elohim, and each other who has been married, joined together with Elohim.

I think some of the participants here focussing very much on the exact wording that you are using for things...and wants to make sure you are not stating anything that is not technically correct.

In the process however, I do not think everybody hears that really you have a revelation of something that goes beyond human words, which you are in a way trying to share here.

I think I hear you Stefen. There is a mystery here, about the Oneness we have with Christ that is just too incredible for words. And when we join together and start pondering on the incredible richness of our inheritance, based on the words of Jesus, which comes from the fact that indeed we are one with Him, we will be able to grow together in deeper revelation.

I have also been meditating on this topic lately. Jesus was the Son of God, but He came as a man, son of Man, so what made Him able to perform wonders was the Spirit inside of Him. We however, have the same Christ now inside of us as well. The Word is to become flesh through us. The manifestation of Christ, is suppose to be our daily life.

Now John 14 Jesus says : Concerning how things were before He left earth:

v10 " The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in Me does the works".
In another place He says He does only what the Father shows Him.
And He says nothing except what the Father speaks.

v11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me"

However, look at what He says will happen after He leaves:

v20.."At that day you will know that I am in the Father (Note that He is not saying anything anymore about the Father being in Him), and you in Me, and I in you.

So : the same way that Jesus spoke only what the Father said, did only what the Father showed Him and did through Him, for He was in the Father and the Father was in Him.
the same way, I read it, we are supposed to be now, speaking only what Jesus says, doing only what HE does, for we are in Jesus and He is in us.

The Onneness between JEsus and His Father while He was on earth, is to be the Onneness we should have with JEsus (and the FAther for Jesus is now in the Father) now.

So, it is not really that we are God, for we speak nothing of ourselves when we are in Onneness and we do nothing of ourselves, but all we do of His authority, His leading, His prompting. In Him we live and move and have our being. We lay our lives down, so we can live it for Him and His Kingdom. And even though technically we can still do things which is not of the FAther, just as Jesus technically had the ability to say things which was not the FAther's words, we choose not to, and to reflect Him in all that we are and do.

And as His Word dwells richly in us and becomes our meditation day and night, He will be dwelling richly in us.

See, we need to also note the condition in John 14 : 23
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me"

We can therefore not expect to express the Words of the Father and to do the deeds of the Father as under His authority as a total reflection of our Oneness with Him if we do not keep His word in us. For as a man thinketh in His heart so is he also. So let us think the thoughts of the Father. And the thoughts of the Father is the Word which He gives us, as a living seed, to produce fruits to His glory.

Stefen
Mar 20th 2008, 03:32 PM
I think some of the participants here focussing very much on the exact wording that you are using for things...and wants to make sure you are not stating anything that is not technically correct.

In the process however, I do not think everybody hears that really you have a revelation of something that goes beyond human words, which you are in a way trying to share here.

I think I hear you Stefen. There is a mystery here, about the Oneness we have with Christ that is just too incredible for words. And when we join together and start pondering on the incredible richness of our inheritance, based on the words of Jesus, which comes from the fact that indeed we are one with Him, we will be able to grow together in deeper revelation.

I have also been meditating on this topic lately. Jesus was the Son of God, but He came as a man, son of Man, so what made Him able to perform wonders was the Spirit inside of Him. We however, have the same Christ now inside of us as well. The Word is to become flesh through us. The manifestation of Christ, is suppose to be our daily life.

Now John 14 Jesus says : Concerning how things were before He left earth:

v10 " The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in Me does the works".
In another place He says He does only what the Father shows Him.
And He says nothing except what the Father speaks.

v11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me"

However, look at what He says will happen after He leaves:

v20.."At that day you will know that I am in the Father (Note that He is not saying anything anymore about the Father being in Him), and you in Me, and I in you.

So : the same way that Jesus spoke only what the Father said, did only what the Father showed Him and did through Him, for He was in the Father and the Father was in Him.
the same way, I read it, we are supposed to be now, speaking only what Jesus says, doing only what HE does, for we are in Jesus and He is in us.

The Onneness between JEsus and His Father while He was on earth, is to be the Onneness we should have with JEsus (and the FAther for Jesus is now in the Father) now.

So, it is not really that we are God, for we speak nothing of ourselves when we are in Onneness and we do nothing of ourselves, but all we do of His authority, His leading, His prompting. In Him we live and move and have our being. We lay our lives down, so we can live it for Him and His Kingdom. And even though technically we can still do things which is not of the FAther, just as Jesus technically had the ability to say things which was not the FAther's words, we choose not to, and to reflect Him in all that we are and do.

And as His Word dwells richly in us and becomes our meditation day and night, He will be dwelling richly in us.

See, we need to also note the condition in John 14 : 23
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me"

We can therefore not expect to express the Words of the Father and to do the deeds of the Father as under His authority as a total reflection of our Oneness with Him if we do not keep His word in us. For as a man thinketh in His heart so is he also. So let us think the thoughts of the Father. And the thoughts of the Father is the Word which He gives us, as a living seed, to produce fruits to His glory.

I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from.

I'm not worried about technicality, neither is my Father, he knows that I know that I am nothing with out Him and His Son and that all I am is in them. Therfore I am laying hold of the great gift I have been given with much confidence, because I believe Jesus.

Friend of I AM
Mar 20th 2008, 03:52 PM
Thank you for your input Yolande. Though I can't speak for others, I can say that my specific response to Steffan regarding the Word and differentiating in opinion of who/what exactly our standing is when we are one with God differs in more than just wording.

From what I can ascertain from Steffan's testimony, he does indeed seem to be alluding that we are God when being one with him in Spirit. Nothing in scripture points to this being the case in our walks, but it does indeed point to us being unified to God by the Spirit of his son, Christ Jesus. None of the apostles, prophets, or disciples who were full of the spirit, ever acknowledged themselves in such a way before God or men. They always made sure to state that they were servants of God throughout their testimonies. The angels themselves when presenting themselve to men, always made sure to tell the men before them not to bow down before them, only bow down before the one who was uncreated.

To be quite honest, a lot of what Steffan is posting sounds very reminiscent of ideologies that can be found in the "living God" doctrines of today which seem to be creeping there way into the mainstream church, or specifically those doctrines which state that because an individual is one with God, they are a God themselves. I have actually had several discussions with others regarding this in other forums, and it usually comes down to individuals taking specific verses out of context regarding our relationship with God through Christ Jesus.

I mean no one here offense, just want to clarify that one needs to be very careful as to how the insinuate their standing in Christ. None of the disciples, apostles, or prophets nor even Christ himself(even though he clearly was God) ever claimed to have equality with God the Father - despite their oneness with him.

Yolande~
Mar 20th 2008, 03:55 PM
I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from.

I'm not worried about technicality, neither is my Father, he knows that I know that I am nothing with out Him and His Son and that all I am is in them. Therfore I am laying hold of the great gift I have been given with much confidence, because I believe Jesus.

With much confidence as well, I choose to believe Him.

Not only is the mystery of our Oneness with Him profound, but also of our Oneness with one another.

For, as you are one with Him, and I am one with Him, we are one with each other. And this is a Oneness that is even of higher position than what unity is, it is a Oneness that goes beyond human boundaries. Just think about that for a moment, if we as brothers and sisters could be one with another as Jesus is one with the Father and one with Jesus as Jesus is one with the Father. This is how it should be. This is what it could be. For those who would dare to believe. And grab hold of their inheritance. By faith. By His grace.

Yolande~
Mar 20th 2008, 04:04 PM
Thank you for your input Yolande. Though I can't speak for others, I can say that my specific response to Steffan regarding the Word and differentiating in opinion of who/what exactly our standing is when we are one with God differs in more than just wording.

From what I can ascertain from Steffan's testimony, he does indeed seem to be alluding that we are God when being one with him in Spirit. Nothing in scripture points to this being the case in our walks, but it does indeed point to us being unified to God by the Spirit of his son, Christ Jesus. None of the apostles, prophets, or disciples who were full of the spirit, ever acknowledged themselves in such a way before God or men. They always made sure to state that they were servants of God throughout their testimonies. The angels themselves when presenting themselve to men, always made sure to tell the men before them not to bow down before them, only bow down before the one who was uncreated.

To be quite honest, a lot of what Steffan is posting sounds very reminiscent of ideologies that can be found in the "living God" doctrines of today which seem to be creeping there way into the mainstream church, or specifically those doctrines which state that because an individual is one with God, they are a God themselves. I have actually had several discussions with others regarding this in other forums, and it usually comes down to individuals taking specific verses out of context regarding our relationship with God through Christ Jesus.

I mean no one here offense, just want to clarify that one needs to be very careful as to how the insinuate their standing in Christ. None of the disciples, apostles, or prophets nor even Christ himself(even though he clearly was God) ever claimed to have equality with God the Father - despite their oneness with him.

Well, either I have been misunderstanding Stefan here, or you may have misunderstood him based on the background of these other doctrines you have come into contact with lately.

I will leave for him to clarify...

Friend of I AM
Mar 20th 2008, 04:19 PM
Well, either I have been misunderstanding Stefan here, or you may have misunderstood him based on the background of these other doctrines you have come into contact with lately.

I will leave for him to clarify...

Understood. That's what I got out of the testimony. He is indeed welcome to respond to what I posted. For myself there is not much I believe I have to contribute to this topic at this point though. That being said I'll bow out for now. Thank you to everyone for your input and God bless.

In Christ,

Stephen